Rewriting history how Hegel viewed Tibetan Buddhism: LAMAISM

We need to realise that we have to refine our understanding of Buddhism which should be expressed in the mathematical formula thus:

Buddhism – Lamaism/ TB = B



Hegel: Lectures on the Philosophy of World History, Volume I

Manuscripts of the Introduction and the Lectures of 1822-1823

Robert F. Brown and Peter C. Hodgson

Hegel Lectures

576 pages | 0 | 234x156mm

978-0-19-960170-7 | Hardback | 07 April 2011

Also available as: eBook

“Hegel’s Lectures on the Philosophy of Religion represent the final and in some ways the decisive element of his entire philosophical system. His conception and execution of the lectures differed significantly on each of the occasions he delivered them, in 1821, 1824, 1827, and 1831.”


Far East (Hinduism, Buddhism, and Lamaism), the Near East (Persian, Egyptian, and Jewish religions), and the West (Greek and Roman religions).”



The Buddhism of Tibet, or Lamaism 
with its mystic cults, symbolism and mythology, and in its relation to Indian Buddhism 
by L. Austine Waddell.


Published 1895 by W.H. Allen & Co. in London . 

Written in English.


“The Buddhism of Tibet or Lamaism,” Prof. Waddell indicates that the Tibetans place their faith in Lamas, the sacerdotal priests whose “cults comprise much deep-rooted devil-worship and sorcery,” and these practices are of Bon origin.


 “Lamaism,” Prof. Waddell opines, “is only  thinly  and  imperfectly  varnished  over  with  Buddhist symbolism, beneath which  the  sinister  growth  of  poly-demonist  superstition  darkly appears.” In his opinion, there are two primary sources for the demonic dimension lurking in Lamaism: it originates in part from the primitive paganism of Bon, and in part from Indian Tantrism. (p. xi & pp. 29-30)




The Iconography of Tibetan Lamaism

Antoinette L. Gordon,

The Iconography of Tibetan Lamaism was first published in 1939, for the express purpose of ‘giving the student interested in Tibetan iconography a general idea of the development of Buddhism into Lamaism.…that are used in the images of Gods is accompanied with a word list of the Sanskrit terms most commonly encountered in a study of Lamaism.’”

351 Responses

  1. While I don’t understand why the Dalai Lama continues to associate with Tsogyal, after all that has come out about the latter, I watched the video and I noticed that the DL looked uncomfortable when Tsogyal mentioned all of the celebrities present. His body language and attitude seemed to suggest that he was uncomfortable but didn’t know how to respond, so he just let it go. Having said this, I am uncomfortable with the support that Tsogyal (and other misbehaving lamas) get and it makes them ALL look like a big, old boy network. All the lamas in all the lineages know each other, hang out together, support each other, etc. They are like one, big family, so if someone like Tsogyal is known to be abusive, associating with him does make them look like they are at least somewhat supporting him.


  2. Likely there has been some glitch with wordpress our platform. I will get our web master to respond to you.
    Certainly there is no reason for you to be excluded!


  3. Talking about leaving and coming back…I’ve been away a while but noted that I had stopped getting any email alerts. Does that mean I’m excluded? I don’t mind, I’ve gotten over meaningless chatter anyway, but still intrigued about the sudden exclusion. This will be my last post by the way!
    Cheers, but Buddha is lost among it all now. He’d be sitting silently witnessing it all. Happy practice!


  4. No Joanne you have within one year turned from a competent and perceptive commentator to a clone of BellaB. No you told us you were going to leave and then immediately came back. You have a problem ..last wordism! The only issue we had was you commenting on the wrong thread. Bye forNOW


  5. It brings to my mind the troubles that plagued the Cult Awareness Network, as they sought to hide the fact that their director was a Scientologist. Could history be repeating itself here?


  6. In fact, I am fairly certain that Chris believes that the NKT in particular, and Shugden worshippers in general, are innocent victims of a smear campaign led by these “Lamaists”.

    While this is not a position I agree with, I would fully support Chris in any effort she wants to make at being more honest, transparent and forthcoming about herself. I always think that is best.


  7. Yes, I will leave. I am usually made to leave whenever I mention Chris’s lack of transparency, such as her relationship with Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.


  8. Please just leave now Joanne you are going round in circles. We know what theDL can and can’t do.
    We are still waiting for your explanation of the Lerab Ling video.
    You can’t as it shows the DL totally in Sogyal’s pocket. Is it 20 years since the DL’s statement? He must denounce Sugar Daddy otherwise his words are just words if conseqences do not result


  9. Chris, I believe that the Buddha said, “Stop” almost 2,600 years ago. He gave monks strict guidelines, strict vows and modes of conduct. They sometimes break those modes– is that the Buddha’s fault?

    The Buddha also said, “I can show you the path; whether or not you follow the path is up to you.”

    And fyi, the Dalai Lama has no authority to discipline any Tibetan Buddhist lineage. None.


  10. Tashe Tsering, who reported the commonality of the sexual abuse at The Potala Palace and the monasteries, including his own sexual abuse, was a ‘dancer” in the Dalai Lama the 14th’s monastery :

    From the Back Cover of his autobiography:

    “As a 13-year-old member of the Dalai Lama’s personal dance troupe, he was frequently whipped or beaten by teachers for minor infractions. A heterosexual, he escaped abuse, becoming a “drombo”, ( very common) or homosexual passive partner and sex-toy for a well connected monk” .

    The Bhutanese boys were in a Tibetan monastery, of the Kagyu sect of Tibtan Lamaism.

    The Dalai Lama has now coopted all the sects, the Nyingma, the Kagyu and the Sakya, under him, that is why he can ‘recognize’ a Kagyu “Karmapa” along with China, this was unheard of EVER in 1000 years for the Dalai Lama to recognize a Karmapa but now all the sects have agreed to be under the Dalai Lama’s auspices after thousands of years and conflictual and even violent interactions. .

    All he’d have to do, again is say STOP, but of course that would require acknowledging responsibility for it happening, and admitting it was happening and there being consequences,for it happening. Like the Catholic Church has done.

    It took the ordinary people to say stop to the Catholic Churches abuses, but then the parishioners of the Catholic Church no longer allowed themselves to be under the authoritarian might of the priests anymore.

    As we can see here, the ‘sangha’ of devotees are thought controlled slaves to these Lamas, and they will never rise up. It will take an outrage from the ordinary citizens to rise up against what they are doing, particularly when it is happening here in western countries. Because the sangha enablers are never , ever , ever going to say anything about anything these Lamas do. and these Lamas are above the law and don’t adhere to the consequences of anyone but themselves. No matter where they are, what country, they become a law of their own.


  11. Angie, this is how it went. I spoke of the real reforms which the Dalai Lama is initiating and the sound advice he is giving Western Tibetan students. I observed that if everyone followed that advice, there would likely be no more abuse in Western Tibetan Buddhist communities.

    You respond, Yeah, but why don’t you tell the Dalai Lama to stop monks in Bhutan from breaking their vows ha ha. Like, what does that have to do with addressing the problems in the West?


  12. Angie, are you actually saying that the Dalai Lama should step in regarding allegations of sexual abuse now in Bhutan???? What next? Is he responsible for every trouble in the world???? Give me a break.


  13. Angie, there is just one big problem with what you just said– too much of what is being said here is simply not true. When I demonstrate the inaccuracy, my evidence is ignored and the untruths are repeated. There can be no discussion of what is going on until everyone is committed to truth.

    Liked by 1 person

  14. Joanne

    It is good that your daughter has learnt from your mistakes, however, I disagree that you say Chris is spreading hatred when she alerts the public to sexual molestation of children and the historical factors that play a huge role in this. Yes, she is angry and why wouldn’t she be? I am also aware that you were never involved to the extent she was and so you are totally ignorant of the long term psychological effects. You are blinkered and no doubt you wake up to a ‘new’ day feeling ‘embraced’ in your little cocoon you strengthen with words of the Dalai Lama. At a time like this you are the least of what abusive people need to bring vital changes to free them from sickness in their society. It is well known that ‘compassion’ or ‘forgiveness’ does not stop paedophilias from seeking potential victims and the country they live in, whether religiously orientated or not, does not make an iota of difference. Reliance on the law is not sufficient.

    Would it not be better if you wrote a letter to the Dalai Lama and informed him of what is going on? It would be far more helpful than attacking Chris or anyone else on this site, don’t you think?


  15. Marte et al, what my daughter tells me again and again is that if I had begun my Buddhist path with that 10 day retreat, things would not have gone so terribly wrong. If I had investigated Sogyal, allowing myself to view him from a distance critically for the requisite 12 years, there would have been no trouble for me and my family. And that is the approach taught at this 10 day retreat.

    And this is my main point. The reforms which the Dalai Lama is putting into place, his advice to Westerners, do work– they are effective at preventing abuse.

    Chris, your hatred doesn’t allow for any hope of solutions such as these to the problems within TB communities. That is the trouble with hatred. The only solution within hatred is destruction of the hated object. That’s what I am hearing from you.


  16. And Martel, I did help one of my daughters travel to India, where she attended two teachings with HH Dalai Lama. After those, she attended a 10 day retreat at Tushita Center. At this retreat she learned to be very cautious and skeptical before becoming involved in any Buddhist tradition. She was encouraged to study all traditions, Zen, Theravada, Tibetan Buddhism, Christianity etc. She now has a good handle on what went so terribly wrong with her mother all those years ago and she often sets me straight about most things.

    And oh yes, she is now busy in Africa addressing problems of hunger and sustainable agriculture. She’s too busy to meditate or study, but is practicing compassion in action instead. She is busy walking the talk. I am very proud of her and so relieved that she is able to move forward from all the lama madness I inflicted on her.


  17. Sexual abuse of boys in Bhutan,, and rape of girls by monks, a ‘predictable progression”: Not only are these boys sexually abuse but there is a scandalous level of sexually transmitted diseases in these monasteries passed on to these young boys including HIV: One can see the typical denial of the head monks, who ‘never heard about it” Denial and Lying go hand in hand.

    “RNS) The South Asian nation of Bhutan has been rocked by a sexual abuse scandal in which young Buddhist monks molested by older monks fled their monastery and reported the abuse to journalists.

    While rumors about child sexual abuse in monasteries have swirled around this tiny Buddhist nation for a while, this is the first time confirmed cases of underage monks molested by their seniors have come to the fore.

    Two young monks at the gate of a monastery in Thimphu. Photo by Vishal Arora
    Show caption

    Two young monks at the gate of a monastery in Thimphu. Photo by Vishal Arora
    This image is available for Web and print publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

    “Every time I tried to scream or struggled, he pinned me with his body, put his hand over my mouth and covered it tightly,” an 11-year-old boy told the magazine “The Raven,” describing how he was sexually abused by a 20-year-old monk in a monastery in Punakha, about 45 miles northeast of the capital city of Thimphu.

    The underage monk said he and his 12-year-old friend at the monastery were asked to come in turns to sleep with the senior monk.

    Another pedophile monk, a 60-year-old man, molested not only the two boys, but two other monks, aged nine and 11.

    Months after facing regular abuse at the monastery, the two boys fled last summer to their village in the southwestern district of Chukha, where they met with Sonam Ongmo, editor of the “The Raven,” which published the story and reported the case to the government’s National Commission for Women and Children.

    Chhoekey Penjor, deputy chief information officer at the Children’s Division of the commission, confirmed the allegations were found to be true and “necessary action was taken.”

    The “Red Hat” sect of Tibetan Buddhism is the state religion of Bhutan, a nation of about 700,000 people in the Himalayas between India and China.

    According to the code of conduct in monasteries, authorities disrobe an erring monk, throw flour on him and chase him away from the monastery – as they did with the 20-year-old monk.

    However, the 60-year-old monk remains in the monastery, “The Raven” reported.

    “This is the first time that child sexual abuse among monks has been reported to us,” Penjor said.

    She added that the commission had forwarded the case to the monastic body and that her department had helped set up a child protection office.

    But Lopen Gyembo Dorji, secretary general of the monastic body, said he was not aware of sexual abuse in the monastery.

    “The Raven” quoted a doctor at a hospital in Thimphu saying he is often visited by monks with psychological or sexual problems, some showing signs of abuse.

    Kinley Tshering, a former newspaper editor, said “muffled voices” about sexual abuse in monastic communities had been there “for quite some time now.”

    Sexually transmitted infections and HIV have been reported among young monks, and health officials make condoms available to monastic schools.

    A 2009 report on risks and vulnerabilities of adolescents revealed that monks were engaging in “thigh sex,” in which a man uses another man’s clenched thighs for intercourse, according to the state-owned Kuensel daily.

    A year later, at least a dozen monks, including some who were underage, were diagnosed with STIs, and at least five monks were known to be HIV positive.

    On April 10, three monks from Bhutan, aged between 21 and 24, were arrested for allegedly raping a 14-year-old girl in the Kalimpong town of West Bengal in neighboring India.”


  18. We must be on the same wavelength this morning Marte, I woke up and thought about how there should be links on DI about the rampant sexual abuse of children inside the Tibetan Monasteries as well , which is only hitting the mainstream media occasionally. The ‘whistle blowing’ of the Bhutanese boys, 11 and younger who ran away and exposed the sexual abuse in a Tibetan monastery in Bhutan, That article should be put on Dialogue Ireland, as well as the sexual abuse of Kalu Rinpoche,recently exposed on You Tube, that he was a high lama incarnate, simply shows it is rampant, and no one is immune, because it is so common. There are other examples. Like Tashi Tsering describes in his autobiography.

    We forget about how these young incarnate lamas , were abused by the Tibetan ‘buddhist’ system themselves, and sexually abused young boys can grow up and become twisted, and emotionally disturbed men, sexually abusing others. In fact, one could say that the Tibetan Buddhist system is a sexually abusive system altogether, with its Tantric Vajrayana, and its secrets denial and massive repression of natural feelings,and female energy except as being seen as sexual objects. What could it be like to grow up without any female energy at all? These young boys had ‘no where to escape to’ , even those who did run away, back to their homes, their parents were so part of the enabling system that they returned them to the abusers. Always.

    I find it beyond sad and tragic, that Ireland is turning away from the Catholic Church and their pedophiles, and embracing a whole system of sexual abusing Tibetan Lama clerics, that would make the Catholic Church look pale in comparison with the Tibetan monastic sexual abuse of young boys as part of ‘hierarchal order.”

    In the “Struggle for Modern Tibet”The Autobiography of Tashi Tsering , written with Melvyn Goldstein, well known historian of the ‘real Tibet” he describes his years- long relationship with a higher social strata lama as his ‘consort’ becoming the ‘lover’ of those lamas higher in the ‘caste system’ was a common and sometimes only way to be protected and have status in the rigid hierarchical priestly monastic system, where getting an extra bowl of ‘tsampa’ and a piece of meat and a better ‘rota’ was the payoff.


  19. You can accuse me of many things, but at least I am transparent. I am open about my loyalties and who I admire and my personal experiences. This gives me confidence and I don’t need to resort to lying. You can disagree with my point of view, Chris et al, but at least I don’t lie. At least my presence here does not rest on deceit–

    Can you say the same, Chris?


  20. And FYI, the Dalai Lama has been criticized by mainstream Tibetan Buddhists because he rarely speaks of the hell realms, even when teaching Lamrim.

    And Chris, you do know, don’t you, that Tsonkhappa speaks of the hell realms in detail in Lamrim Chenmo? Because you are never clear if you are even Buddhist or not, nor do we know what tradition you adhere to if you are, I want to just mention that, in case you admire the teachings of Tsonkhappa. (I know that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is a great admirer of Tsonkhappa and most of your views parrot his views).


  21. Chris, Tibetan Buddhists did not invent the hell realms.


  22. And Angie, when you speak of “historians”, which ones have you studied? No legitimate historians have been quoted on these threads.


  23. Chris said, “Because the main teaching of Tibetan Lamaism/ ‘buddhism”, is to see your lamas as perfect and doing no wrong, and never say anything ‘negative’ about them ,no matter what you see, it is your own ‘confused perception”. that is what they all teach in their Devotion teachings, the MAIN teaching of Tibetan Lamaism. That is a FACT. ”

    I have proven that wrong with quotes from the Dalai Lama. There are many quotes in which he warns Westerners of the dangers of this teaching, which is specific to a particular practice. He advises students to investigate their lamas and speak out and criticize them if necessary. Why do you lie, Chris, and call it fact? Why do you lie?


  24. Just an idea, Joanne, give one of your children or a child of your daughter or son into this system of treasures:

    “The dubious roots of meditation and the negation of human emotional needs in Tibetan Buddhism

    When Tibetan Buddhism is celebrated today as the peaceful and calming practice of meditation, people overlook the reality of a brutal religion with bizarre traditions that has used meditation as a tyrannizing tool to quash the power of feelings and free, critical thinking. Not only one hell as in Christianity, but sixteen hells doom the believer in Tibetan Buddhism with terrifying horror scenarios. It is a tradition of this controlling religion to force children into becoming monks, remove them from their families, cut them off from contact with women and brainwash them with religious studies that must be learned and recited by heart. In the context of this inhuman religion, the word “compassion,” no matter how often it is conjured, has no real meaning because compassion is not extended to these abused and neglected children. In order to become “spiritually enlightened,” they are betrayed of their human right to a healthy, dignified development, their freedom and their lives.

    Colin Goldner writes in “The Myth of Tibet:”

    “Tibetan Buddhism systematically raises people with crippled minds and souls.”!!!

    ”Who will not obey the divine laws of the Lamas will find himself inevitably in one of the sixteen hells. One of these consists of a being immersed to the neck in a ‘stinking swamp of excrements,’ while, at the same time, being ‘picked at and gnawed to the bone by the razor sharp beaks of the huge insects that live there.’ In other hells one is burnt, smashed, squashed, and crushed by boulders or cut into a thousand pieces by huge razor knives. And that is constantly repeated over eons. What this kind of pathological Karma craze causes in the heads of simple structured, uneducated people – not to speak of the heads of three or four year old children who are saturated with this – one can only guess with a shudder.”

    Why are fear and control of our feelings so popular and widely spread? Why are we not encouraged to welcome all our feelings, to communicate with them with an open mind in order to find out why we feel what we feel? Is the old childhood fear of threatening parental rebukes, retributions and attacks so strong and prevalent?

    When we look at why we feel angry, our anger might be justified in the presence and lead us to empowering and important actions that protect our lives, health and interests and our loved ones too. Maybe our anger leads us to actions where we become activists engaged to work for social changes, for the benefit of other people, for the environment. Why should we want to meditate this strengthening anger away, turn it into fussy confusion, thus deny it and take away its power?

    But our anger can also stem from the pain and powerlessness that we suffered as children when we had to bear the unjust attacks of angry, cruel parents and could not defend ourselves and when any protest would only have meant more, even life-threatening danger. When this dormant anger emerges years later, it is directed against weaker, less powerful and innocent people, above all children. As powerful authorities, adults can now vent their old, unconscious anger on those where they don’t feel afraid anymore but in control, where they experience themselves as powerful and can induce fear. How infinitely more difficult and frightening is it to speak up to power, to question and see through one’s parents, to acknowledge the consequences of their hurtful actions and attitudes and to realize how they programmed us emotionally. Because in order to do so, we must confront the terror of the attacked, blamed, condemned and punished child.

    When anger becomes a problem in adulthood where it appears clearly out of context and is taken out on innocent others – then we must question it and work in therapy to understand its roots and resolve its destructiveness. Daily hours and years of meditation can never resolve this kind of anger and hatred but only reinforce the tradition of suppressing undesired feelings, which pursues the interests of the powerful – that we remain unconscious, controllable, devoted children/followers.


  25. Joanne says that she and others would blindly follow Lama/Tibetan Buddhism. “They want the abuses to stop in order for that tradition to continue without perversion in the West.” “The vast majority of Westerners”? Where do you get this information? Was there a survey done? So you and Finnegan have turned your backs on the problems THAT ARE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW! And live in the bubble of, so called, Tibetan tradition. Since you argue that no-one knows, even historians who dedicated years to the history of Tibet, what do you know about their tradition? The Dalai Lama has been proved to be a liar and, and in his political career, we know he whitewashed his ‘tradition’ to appeal to western ‘compassion’. You cannot change history. You cannot change the past. You can ‘see it differently’ to make you feel better about it, however, it does not change the reality of what happened.
    The “perversion” is not in the west. Sexual deviancy in a ‘philosophical’ religious context was brought to the west. Talk about whitewashing!
    Joanne, I repeat, you have nothing to contribute accept a manmade philosophy that blinds you to the harm it does. While you sit at home eating your cookies women are being abused and your ‘messiah’ the Dalai Lama DOES NOTHING ABOUT IT! His ‘amazing’ pal Sogyal, who indoctrinates people into servitude to the cult of the Lama system (the blind leading the blind), is held in high regard. We do not put people on a pedestal in the west when they are sexual deviants.
    Joanne, you are much practiced at the subtle insult while claiming to be ‘compassionate’ and following the Buddha path.


  26. Do you know what a ‘limited hang out story” is ? That is what the articles about Sogyal in the Guardian all amounted to over the years.
    Mary Finnegan is still in the cult of Lamaism, and since her new main teacher, Namkai Norbu made a big ‘display’ of honoring and protecting Sogyal, in 2011 after the documentary came out, then Mary Finnegan has no choice but to ‘retract’ and keep quiet now, as she has taken the same vows they all require from their ‘students” which is to see these lamas as perfect to be devoted to them on their ‘thrones” , and to say nothing ever negative, for fear of terrible repercussions in this this life and the next, hell realms that they have SOAKED these devotees into believing, and as all of you must believe.
    . Because the main teaching of Tibetan Lamaism/ ‘buddhism”, is to see your lamas as perfect and doing no wrong, and never say anything ‘negative’ about them ,no matter what you see, it is your own ‘confused perception”. that is what they all teach in their Devotion teachings, the MAIN teaching of Tibetan Lamaism. That is a FACT. So, one becomes a thought control slave to these lamas, who then have license and permission to do whatever they want, break laws, abuse, financially extort, sexual exploit, because they know that they have created a complete ‘mind control’ and slave situation in their respective sanghas and no one will speak out the truth because they won’t see the truth anymore, they are taught NOT to trust their own perceptions.
    So it doesn’t matter where these western Tibetan lamaists, jump ship too, From Sogyal to Namkai Norbu, or the Dalai Lama, they are all still circling in the same ‘lagoon” , the same whirlpool of mind control and ‘doublespeak’ and groupthink because all the Tibetan lama sects create the same ‘mental imprisonment’ and thought control and group conformity through the made-up teachings of the Lamas and their Guru Devotion, which is not Buddhism. They just use the buddhist concepts and words to disguise that they are a tantric vajrayana occult sect brought from India. Only they were more ‘isolated’ and so could really perfect their mind control for a 1000 years on their people, who are still burning themselves to death for the Kundun, while he remains ‘silent.’ Very compassionate. .
    As a committed devotee to these Lamas, doesn’t matter what sect, it is all based on the Vajrayana master teacher enthrallment, and one cannot even have a ‘negative thought ‘ about them, and they can then do whatever they want. A perfectly seamless mind control of whole groups, and they are spreading and recruiting and sucking people into this thought control miasma, creating religious fundamentalists, as we have seen on here, that can attack and spew out hatred, towards any one that disagrees with them, and be perfectly self-righteous and self-congratulatory about doing so.

    Sorry , forgot to fill in the details again.


  27. Do you know what a ‘limited hang out story” is ? That is what the articles about Sogyal in the Guardian all amounted to over the years.

    Mary Finnegan is still in the cult of Lamaism, and since her new main teacher, Namkai Norbu made a big ‘display’ of honoring and protecting Sogyal, in 2011 after the documentary came out, then Mary Finnegan has no choice but to ‘retract’ and keep quiet now, as she has taken the same vows they all require from their ‘students” which is to see these lamas as perfect to be devoted to them on their ‘thrones” , and to say nothing ever negative, for fear of terrible repercussions in this this life and the next, hell realms that they have SOAKED these devotees into believing, and as all of you must believe.

    . Because the main teaching of Tibetan Lamaism/ ‘buddhism”, is to see your lamas as perfect and doing no wrong, and never say anything ‘negative’ about them ,no matter what you see, it is your own ‘confused perception”. that is what they all teach in their Devotion teachings, the MAIN teaching of Tibetan Lamaism. That is a FACT. So, one becomes a thought control slave to these lamas, who then have license and permission to do whatever they want, break laws, abuse, financially extort, sexual exploit, because they know that they have created a complete ‘mind control’ and slave situation in their respective sanghas and no one will speak out the truth because they won’t see the truth anymore, they are taught NOT to trust their own perceptions.

    So it doesn’t matter where these western Tibetan lamaists, jump ship too, From Sogyal to Namkai Norbu, or the Dalai Lama, they are all still circling in the same ‘lagoon” , the same whirlpool of mind control and ‘doublespeak’ and groupthink because all the Tibetan lama sects create the same ‘mental imprisonment’ and thought control and group conformity through the made-up teachings of the Lamas and their Guru Devotion, which is not Buddhism. They just use the buddhist concepts and words to disguise that they are a tantric vajrayana occult sect brought from India. Only they were more ‘isolated’ and so could really perfect their mind control for a 1000 years on their people, who are still burning themselves to death for the Kundun, while he remains ‘silent.’ Very compassionate. .

    As a committed devotee to these Lamas, doesn’t matter what sect, it is all based on the Vajrayana master teacher enthrallment, and one cannot even have a ‘negative thought ‘ about them, and they can then do whatever they want. A perfectly seamless mind control of whole groups, and they are spreading and recruiting and sucking people into this thought control miasma, creating religious fundamentalists, as we have seen on here, that can attack and spew out hatred, towards any one that disagrees with them, and be perfectly self-righteous and self-congratulatory about doing so.


  28. Joanne in deed it will set you free, just let go


  29. Thanks never ending last word Joanne.


  30. Fact: The vast majority of Westerners– such as myself and Mary Finnigan– who have been involved in these discussions, including those who have been victims of abuses within Western Tibetan Buddhist communities, treasure the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. They want the abuses to stop in order for that tradition to continue without perversion in the West.

    Fact: Not one individual on these threads, who claim that the Tibetan Buddhist tradition is perverted Buddhism, has been able to demonstrate any credible evidence for such a claim. Though Chris claims 25 years of study of Tibetan Buddhism, the best she can do to back her claims is a quote from the Bible (e.g. “The truth will set you free.”)


  31. And Sankhappa, quite apart from the problem with hatred and ill will, I will remind you that you have been harshly critical of a teacher of the Buddha’s Dharma– and I wager that you have never listened to a single teaching he has given. Would the Buddha approve?

    If you go on the Dalai Lama’s website, you will find hundreds of hours of teachings he has given. He is a tireless teacher and he teaches directly from the ancient Sanskrit and Pali texts. Would the Lord Buddha, who revered teachers who only gave him a sentence of Dhamma, approve of your very harsh criticisms?


  32. And one last comment, Sankhappa, because you have referred to Dhamma. By that, I believe you are referring to the Pali tradition of Buddhism? I am not well versed in that tradition, but isn’t it true that in those sutras, Buddha advises us to refrain completely from criticizing others? Would he ever advise maligning others?

    Even in the Mahayana tradition, which I follow, one is advised to criticize only after careful observation of one’s state of mind and motivation. Only after great care and out of concern with the other’s mis-direction– out of compassion for the other. Lying is only allowed in a situation such as lying to the hunter about which way the deer went. Hatred and ill will are not allowed.


  33. Der Link zu “Heile, Heile Segen”, Kulturgeschichte der Hysterie


  34. Vielleicht sollten wir uns daran erinnern, dass die Frau zu allen patriarchalen Zeiten ein großes Rätsel war. Von allen psychischen Phänomenen wurde auf den weiblichen Körper rückgeschlossen. Was durch sinnvoll war. Heutzutage ist die Frau und damit der Mensch als Geschlechtwesen scheinbar nicht nur kein Rätsel mehr. Früher war die von Natur aus eine Krankheit , heutzutage sind sie “geheilt” und “normal”, sie sind wie “Männer” oder eben nicht existent. Also, wir sind hier und wir sprechen und schreiben und wir Körper diese schmerzen beim “Gebären” .

    “Heile, heile Segen” Kulturgeschichte der Hysterie

    Die Gebärmutter stand bei Medizinern der unterschiedlichsten Zeitalter im Verdacht, ein spezielles Frauenleiden hervorzurufen, die Hysterie. Diese gab der Medizin Jahrhunderte hindurch Rätsel auf und animierte Ärzte zu den skurrilsten Therapien.
    Von: Imogen Rhia Herrad Stand: 19.08.2012
    Kreischende Fans bei einem Beatles-Auftritt 1964 | Bild: picture-alliance/dpa

    Bereits vor 4.000 Jahren beschrieben Mediziner im alten Ägypten eine psychische Erkrankung, von der sie ausschließlich Frauen befallen glaubten. Die Ursache vermuteten die ägyptischen Heiler – ganz so wie Jahrhunderte später griechische Philosophen – in der Gebärmutter. Man glaubte, das weibliche Fortpflanzungsorgan (auf griechisch: “Hystera”) müsse regelmäßig mit Sperma “gefüttert” werden.

    “Ein nach Kindererzeugung gieriges Tier ist der Uterus”

    Zeichnung Portrait Hippokrates | Bild: picture-alliance/dpa
    Hippokrates prägte den Begriff der “Hysterie”

    Blieb diese Nahrung aus, so glaubten die Alten, begann das “gierige Tier” im weiblichen Körper umherzuwandern und auf diese Weise Symptome wie Glieder- und Nackenschmerzen, Schwerhörigkeit, Lähmungen und andere hysterische Krankheitssymptome auszulösen. Im 5. vorchristlichen Jahrhundert prägte der griechische Mediziner Hippokrates den Begriff “Hysterie”. Sieben Jahrhunderte später erbrachte der große griechische Mediziner Galen zwar durch Autopsien den klaren Beweis, dass die Gebärmutter wie jedes andere Organ im Körper festgewachsen und des Wanderns unfähig ist.
    Illustration: Kind im Uterus | Bild: picture-alliance/dpa
    Eine “unterversorgte” Gebärmutter galt als Krankheitsauslöser

    Doch der Glaube an den wandernden Uterus hielt sich weiter hartnäckig. Medizinische Handschriften empfahlen im Mittelalter, bei hysterischen Störungen wohlriechende Stoffe vor die Scheide zu halten, um so das auf Abwege geratene Organ wieder an seinen eigentlichen Platz zurück zu locken. Ab dem 15. und bis hinein ins 19. Jahrhundert bestand eine gängige ärztliche Behandlungsform in der Auslösung einer “hysterischen Krise”: des damals im Westen offiziell unbekannten weiblichen Orgasmus. Dazu bedienten sich Mediziner im 19. Jahrhundert – erstaunlich, aber wahr – eines dampfbetriebenen Vibrators.

    Erst Sigmund Freud zog Anfang des 20. Jahrhunderts eine klare und endgültige Trennungslinie zwischen hysterischen Symptomen und dem Uterus: Er beschrieb Hysterie als psychisches Leiden mit körperlichen Krankheitsmerkmalen. Noch bis 1952 bestand der Begriff weiter, erst dann wurde er von der “American Psychiatric Society” aus der offiziellen Liste psychischer Krankheiten gestrichen. Imogen Rhia Herrad über die Geschichte eines medizinischen Irrglaubens.
    “Heile, heile Segen”
    Äskulapstab | Bild: Illustration: BR

    In der radioZeitreisen-Sommeredition dreht sich alles um Kuriositäten der Medizingeschichte. Wir haben sechs besonders erzählens- und hörenswerte Episoden aus dem Arzneimittelschrank der Menschheitsgeschichte zusammengestellt: Geschichten von medizinischen Irrtümern und von wagemutigen Pioniertaten, Erschreckendes und Erheiterndes, Erschütterndes und Kurioses – in jedem Fall hochwirksame Medizin gegen Langeweile: Jeweils sonntags, 13.05 Uhr in Bayern 2.


  35. Hysterie (von altgriechisch ὑστἐρα hystéra „Gebärmutter“) ist eine neurotische Störung. Andere gebräuchliche Synonyme sind: histrionische Reaktion, Konversionsstörung, Konversionshysterie, Somatisierungsstörung (bei multiplen, häufig wechselnden körperlichen Symptomen) sowie psychoreaktives Syndrom. Die Bezeichnung Hysterie als psychologischer Fachbegriff gilt inzwischen als veraltet und wurde im ICD-10 durch die Bezeichnungen dissoziative Störung (F44) bzw. histrionische Persönlichkeitsstörung (F60.4) ersetzt, nicht zuletzt, weil dem Begriff der Hysterie aus etymologischer Sicht eine Verbindung mit dem weiblichen Geschlecht sowie eine negative Bewertung anhaftet.


  36. To call women “hysteria”, who speak for their rights has a long patriachalic tradition and is really disgusting misogyni, specially if a woman uses this argument against her own gender.
    I suppose Joanne you don’t know the history of “hysteria” from Aristoteles till now !?

    But maybe YOU have actually your uterus in your head?
    Or whats your strategie to defend your female rights. Propably to participate on the Lamaism – Cult rulers power. Very sane this soft and so “selfless” thinking.


  37. What has Lindy Chamberlain’s story got to do with Soygal’s sexual abuse of followers? Joanne, you have nothing to contribute further and I can only think you are hell bent on having the last word.


  38. Have you only worked out now that Mary with all her shouting about Sogyal is also a protector of TB=Lamaism. You will fight like cats to defend this sexually enabling religion.


  39. Joanne have you only now learnt to use the reverse gear on your Sogyal car? Leaving the site and then returning to shout I am a pure virgin does not was. Please either continue to comment like an adult or give us a break with your Dingo crap


  40. Let me be perfectly clear, Sankhappa. The second Noble Truth is the truth of the causes of suffering, which are the afflictions. Chris and others here have practiced deception in order to promote their views. That is an affliction. They have expressed ill will towards many people. Chris has stated a wish for the destruction of Lamaist cult members. That is an affliction. Chris has not addressed evidence contrary to her views, which are based on ignorance. That is an affliction.

    I cannot support afflictions.


  41. And FYI, I know for fact that Mary Finnigan is not interested in this hysteria. You guys are out on a limb.


  42. Yes, Sankhappa, I am soft. I see a hate campaign here that disturbs me. I see hate language maligning an entire people, an entire religion and culture, a religion and culture that have existed for hundreds of years. The “evidence” given for such hatred is inadequate and full of fallacies and deceit. This hatred is based on ignorance and hatred and deceit repel me.

    And I’ve become softer in my attitude towards the Sogyal troubles as well — simply because of the environment of hysteria that is generated here. I would NEVER fuel hatred, so I will no longer speak out on this website, no longer participate in angry hate speech. That is the core of my Dharma, Sankhappa. Hatred and afflictions within are my only enemies, the cause of suffering, 2nd truth.

    So I call them “allegations” to remind people that only two women actually came forward with their true identities– and also to say that NONE of the women would be happy with the hysteria and hatred that is being generated here. None of them. That I guarantee. I have communicated with some of these women and they are soft too, they don’t want hatred.

    Sankhappa, I don’t know how old you were when the Lindy Chamberlain case was so big in Australia, but I was living there at the time. I jumped on the bandwagon of public hysteria, believing, with most other Australians, that she killed her baby. On the back of that hysteria, she had no chance of a fair trial and was sent to prison and her life was completely ruined. It took years for the truth to emerge that a dingo did in fact take her baby and I swore to myself that I would NEVER again jump on a band wagon of public hysteria and convict another. So this is why I say the word “alleged”, Sankhappa, and I will say it again and again– in my effort to cool down the emotions of the lynch mob forming here and remind people to stay sane.

    That is why I find the approach of the ICSA responsible and reassuring. They have learned from the mistakes of anti-cult groups of the past that became cults themselves. Caution is essential with these matters! You can malign them as well, but I think the fact that they have no writing on Tibetan Buddhsim is simply because no one has submitted any. One of my own goals is to remediate that.

    And just an FYI, I have been reading their literature and it has confirmed me in my admiration for the reforms being instigated by HH Dalai Lama– Most of those reforms are clearly geared toward leading Tibetan Buddhism in the West in ways that are less vulnerable to Cultic abuse. Unfortunately, no one here is interested in his reforms, so I will say no more about that.


  43. Oh, I forgot to mention one other great denier. Sheila Shigley. She always reckoned it was “alleged” too


  44. Well Joanne, you have answered several times, but totally inadequately in regards to Dhamma, and it looks like you still haven’t been able to join the dots. But here is a further hint on the eve of your departure from DI, as a good will gesture from me. If you cannot get you VIEW correct in comprehending the 4NT, you won’t cultivate a path. View is the forerunner and conditions all other factors of the path. And just a cursory and superficial understanding of 4NT, is not gonna get you there.

    Well I don’t know about ICSA being “greener pastures” for you, but most definitely a less challenging environment for you for sure. I notice there is no mention of any Tibetan Lamaist cults on their site, not even the NKT! Surely that must concern you being a die-hard DL student, or as an indication of just how soft ICSA really are. No mention of Sogyal or Rigpa either. And while I’m mentioning Sogyal and Rigpa, are we all now to understand that your latest position is summarised here by your last comment on DI on them:

    Joanne, on November 5, 2013 at 10:24 am said:

    And there are two observations I would make regarding Sogyal after all:

    1. In both Buddhist and secular, human terms, his alleged actions don’t come anywhere near yours, Chris, in terms of harm. Your actions and words incite hatred, Chris— I have never seen anything like your hate-filled speech, in terms of harming others, even in the alleged actions of Sogyal..

    Do you really believe that Chris is doing greater harm than that the vile and abusive monster, Sogyal Rinpoche?

    And also I note the very marked change in your language from your above post, in which I bolded, with the use of the term “alleged”. So are we to believe that this is your new position? That all those abused young women that bravely shared their stories of abuse at the hands of Sogyal Rinpoche here on DI and other forums, and in the court settlement with Jane Doe, etc are now just “alleged” in your book? This sounds very much like the position of the deniers like bellaB and KateS, in not trusting and believing the victims of Sogyal’s abuse. As you often pointed out, not being believed caused so much more pain for the victims, and ultimately prevented people coming forward to expose the abuse. But now it’s just “alleged” Joanne? The once champion of Sogyal’s abused now sees his behaviour and abuse as “alleged”.

    So before departing DI Joanne would you like to retract this in respect of the victims of Sogyal Rinpoche’s abuse, or shall we leave this as your new position?



  45. Note the rote focus on Chris.
    Pavlov dog……woof.
    Note Joanne’s now tge victim and her best friends are bow ICSA because they make her feel good. Wakey wakey and smell the coffee.
    We are still waiting for your commentary on Sogyals party for Carla. Also if you go leave before you deny DI three times.Bye………


  46. Chris has provided only one solution to the problems within Tibetan Buddhist culture– destruction of the culture, religion and people involved. She provides no other solution whereby the Tibetan people and others can practice the Tibetan Buddhist religion in peace. She also provides inaccurate evidence to support her views.

    I would never discuss problems within that context, within such a hostile environment as this has become. Never. That is why I refuse to discuss problems within Rigpa in this environment. I would never discuss where to find the key to a house to a murderer.

    Fortunately, many of those who are involved in discussing cultic problems are neither hostile nor intolerant nor extremist. They speak a language and perspective which I admire and can find common ground with. As I feel a little abused on this thread, I will seek such respectful arenas.


  47. Yes, I’m going missing. I’m off to greener pastures, solution-based, evidence-based, tolerance-based discussions. I did answer your questions, Sankhappa. Several times I answered them.


  48. Thanks DI, but I suspect Joanne will continue on doing as she pleases, in evading these questions and misrepresenting what people have said in an ad hominem fashion.


  49. I must add that Joanne was going to reply and give her comments on the DL’s visit to Lerab Ling. She claimed it was not appropriate on this thread. However, she has gone missing again and continues relentless personal attacks on people. When you have done so and not before we will ask you to then raise the questions you wish to ask.


  50. Yes Joanne, I think it is time to answer some questions, as Chris suggests. I have been reading over this thread and all you seem to do is evade when the hard questions are put to you. I notice you try to imply in my above posts (as you have done with Chris) that I have no empathy for the Tibetans, when it was precisely my concern for the pointless waste of life in Tibet, and The Dalia Lama’s appalling and inadequate responses to this situation, that motivated me to write the above. So how have you been able to twist what I’ve posted into, as you put it? :

    “Sankhappa, don’t disparage the very real suffering of the Tibetan people in this way and their courage to speak out in these ways. It is heartless.”

    How you have derived this sentiment from what I have posted, I feel can only be put down to blatant dishonesty on you part, in order to support your argument. You have also implied on several occasions that Chris also has no empathy for the Tibetan people, and the pointless loss of life through self-immolations, when the opposite is true. Again, this is just blatant dishonesty and misrepresentation.

    As I suspected, you have just regurgitated the Dalia Lama’s line in response to my posts, showing that you can’t apply discernment or think for yourself, or in accord with the Dhamma, and to support the DL’s response you provide an example from, wait for it … the Jataka Tales! A document that has large question marks as to its authenticity and is pretty much considered a collection of myths and fables of the Buddha’s past lives. I mean seriously, is this the best you can do in your support of the Dalai Lama’s claim that those monks who are self-immolating are Bodhisattvas? An appalling and inadequate claim that is antithetical to the Dhamma, at its very foundation. That is, it is the very opposite of what Gautama was saying in how to respond in the face of life’s unavoidable stress, difficulties and ungovernability (I.E. impermanence). Let me be crystal clear here Joanne, the Dalai Lama’s support of the Tibetan Monk’s suicides by saying they are Bodhisattvas, is totally contrary to what the Buddha was advocating, and goes right to the very heart and foundation of his message. Yet, you appear to be unable to discern the difference or comprehend this. The Dalai Lama has misrepresented the Buddha, and you regurgitate his maligned opinion, and yet claim to study and practice Buddhadhamma. You are not a student of Buddhadhamma, you are a student of Dalai-dhamma. One has truth its foundation and one has not.

    But if you are still claiming to really practice Dhamma, I give you the opportunity now to explain how, what the Dalai Lama advocates in regards to the self-immolations (and the monk’s actions themselves) are not in accord with the foundation of the Dhamma. I have all but spelled it out, so if should not be difficult. However, I predict already that you will not be able to, because it will mean disagreeing with your Dalai Lama and you have yoked yourself to him and therefore will have already lost the ability to question and discern. So over to you Joanne. It’s time to address this and the other long-standing questions put to you.


  51. Don’t address me, anymore, just answer the question about the Lamas protecting Sogyal , each and everyone. You must have some answer for this Joanne, surely. at least how you have convinced yourself about this, when you see the pictures of all of them sucking up to Sogyal?


  52. There is a difference between what the Lamas are doing, what their ‘intent is’ which is clearly to create a world Lamastocracy and what they have convinced the most naive westerners they are doing, whether I believe they will succeed is totally different. .

    I do not.

    Because most sane people, who start actually researching their history, and their real behaviors, and what they do to their “close’ in students”, (all of them, the Dalai Lama’s close in students are the monks and nuns , some who are setting themselves on fire) and that they keep in a form of mentally slavery, such as you demonstrate, who refuse to read anything critical to form your own opinion, the opposite of the buddha’s teachings, will be repulsed by this attitude and behavior, as most independently thinking, intelligent people would be.

    . The only reason this hasn’t happened yet, is because the media in the west is only beginning to say’ Hey wait a minute” what this guy is doing and not doing is crazy, it is not compassionate and it is bizarre, and hey, why is he consulting an oracle 7 or 8 times a year, but telling these fool scientists who believe him that he is ‘scientific’ and promoting and adding to science? And why is he letting all those people burn themselves , when he is now making all cozy with China now? And they only reason that is happening is because the west is more interested in making amends with China to open up trade, and so, of course, does the Dalai Lama now change his tune. making all nicey nicey. You think those Tibetans for a Free Tibet don’t notice. You should read what they are starting to say about him, changing his tune. There IS a whole bigger world out here, and you are being purposely NOT being told about and programmed to NOT be open to hear , read, or research it. You are the living example of what they do to western minds, even on the periphery.

    Stop addressing me, always focusing on me, always always, and answer Answers these realities, particularly, ” Why did every Lama , every one, enable, protect and honor Sogyal of Lakar, including the Dalai LAMA,” after his gross sexual abuses were made public. Answer this question, Why, which you have refused to answer for five months , focusing on me and what I say and quoting ‘scripture’ and the Dalai Lama or the offical websites of Lamas to proselytise defend and deflect from this

    It is revolting, and you have harmed your cause much more than you can imagine.


  53. In fact, the more articles I read, the more confidence I gain in my own point of view, the one I came into this discussion with. The more reassurance I gain that the world hasn’t gone stark raving mad.

    To repeat: I am willing to investigate a world that is not black and white, not ALL this or ALL that. My goal is to investigate the existence of problems within Tibetan Buddhist culture in the context of cultic theory– in the context of human suffering. I don’t need a lunatic conspiracy theory to do that.

    Do you really believe that your claim that Tibetan Buddhist “lamaists” are trying to take over the minds of the world, including renowned scientists, politicians, psychologists etc. etc., has any credence as anything other than a bizarre conspiracy theory?


  54. Szasz, Thomas, a psychiatrist who led a ‘movement’ against his own field and its abuses.


  55. Nevertheless, ICSA was very, very helpful, because it has so much ‘material’ on what makes a cult a cult. It is too bad that they are not more ‘proactive’ but that is their nature. Very few Thomas Zsasz’s amongst them.


  56. That is very insightful Angie, and then ICSA was not enough, particularly when I saw that there were no articles on Tibetan Buddhism/Lamaism as a cult, so I knew it’s neutral stance was probably why there has been a ‘proliferation’ of dangerous cults, since taking the ‘politically correct’ position of the ‘academics’ who pressured every cult site into calling them all ‘new religious movements” as thoughts were ‘indigeous tribes’ they were studying ‘in the field” instead of dangerous groups harming their neighbors, i.e. just an neutral position of moral relativism, that most right wing liberals take these days, influenced by the likes of someone like the Dalai Lama, and New Age Hindu Cults themselves, and contributing to the mess we are. “Dont take a stand, don’t be passionate, never call a ‘spade a spade’ always be politically correct, until the world is back in the medieval ages , thanks to the cults amongst us, and their thought control. But psychologists, which ICSA are composed of, and having been one myself, are a timid group, and often become an arm of totalitarian countries. Who went along with Hitler? Academics, psychologists and psychiatrists, and the medical profession in Germany.


  57. Not mentioning Tibetan Buddhism as a cult does not mean it is not a cult. Taking a decision to refrain from listing “bad groups” does not mean they do not exist. It could be they have a policy in place not to frighten already very distressed people away from seeking help, like you were after Soygal’s abusive behaviour towards you, geared towards devotees who are not ready to come fully out of the mind-controlling environment that has had a detrimental effect on them and who need to take it in stages to separate from the cult group so as to avoid being overwhelmed initially.

    The forum of Dialogue Ireland IS TO NAME ABUSIVE CULT GROUPS and inform the public about them. DI also gives a much needed opportunity to dialogue with others who share information on their experiences of cultic indoctrination. Exposing this information to public attention IS REQUIRED for education purposes.

    Joanne, overall your comments are ridiculous and serve no purpose other than to distract and malign, however, they also have the effect of turning people away from the Dalai Lama’s ‘embrace’ into mind controlling Lama/Tibetan Buddhism.


  58. Correction , they do provide a forum, i.e. you could have an article published, or speak at their Annual Conferences, but you would have to use your real name, and what would you write about ? Sogyal? and his abuses? I I don’t think so, you would be attacked viciously by Tibetan Lama Groups and their cult representatives mericilessly, , and dogged relentlessly, by the Lama’s fanatic devotees, like you have done to me here, so I don’t think you would like that, or how about an “Ode to Lamaism and the Dalai Lama” hmmm.. well that wouldn’t be quite appropriate for a anti-cult site now would it.?.

    So maybe , before you think your’e going to write articles,for ICSA, you might think again, and start at ‘square one” by first finding out what makes a cult, since you clearly haven’t a clue on the most fundamental level yet. ICSA could be very helpful for you there.

    Good Luck


  59. And again the phenomenal BLIND SPOT of Tibetan Lamaist Devotees.

    THEY ALLOW PEOPLE TO DISAGREE!! you say, admiring ICSA.

    YOu like it there because , as you must have already ascertained, you will feel safe, particularly because they provide no forum for people to agree OR disagree.

    And since cult members of Tibetan Lamaism allow NO criticism of Lamaism , NONE, that is why it is a cult , you will be very safe on a site that doesn’t list ANY cults as BAD.

    Just stay away from deep research on what makes a cult, or make sure you don’t apply any of the criteria that GLARE out about Lamaism, and you will be safe.


  60. And thank god they don’t have a blog, or a place where people can express themselves, because if anyone was ‘trying to break free of Lamaism, you would make sure relentlessly that THAT journey was stopped before it started. You are a number one enabler of Tibetan Lamaism, and Sogyal. That’s why you can’t and never have addressed how or explained on here, why each and every Lama in Tibetan Lamaism is kissing his feet. Now can you?


  61. Yes, , Michael Langone has admitted to me in personal conversations, that they know NOTHING about Tibetan Buddhism/Lamaism. That’s why there are NO articles.

    I am sure that you will ‘enlighten them”. Lucky them. I am sure you will do as thorough a job as you have done here. Citing resources from the Dalai Lama’s website and the officlal Kagyu site as you have done here.

    However, protect yourself, ( I am sure you will), because they have many many helpful articles, and it was there I went first, reading everything I could about what made a :cult’ before I realized I was in a cult, AGAIN and worse, with another western devotee Lama exploiter, who was the biggest ENABLER of Sogyal. It was then that I had to take a much more aerial view of Tibetan Lamaism, and saw that each and every group met all the criteria that every one of the cult experts , including the ICSA founders, were writing about and each and every Lama of these groups was protecting and enabling Sogyal..

    I did not start out there , i.e. believing that Tibetan Buddhism/Lamaism was a cult.

    What was the straw that broke the camel’s back for me, was the responses to any criticism of Lamaism in general, like what you have done on this site for months , that finally sealed it for me. You , yourself was THAT final straw.,

    As I said before Joanne, I have been where you are, you just have never taken the next step on your journey out of the cult of Lamaism, and instead took a U-Turn. . Sadly, you’re in a lot of company.It is almost impossible for women in particular to come all the way out. They usually just jump into another group. I did that first too. I think the pain and shame of having been ‘fooled twice” and ‘shame on me” adds too much shame to the mix, So they can’t do it. Better to stay with the abusers and make the best of it. Too painful to come all the way out.

    And on ICSA they don’t have any blog and they take no positions. It’s why they let everyone else do their own work on breaking free.

    Good Luck.


  62. And regarding the ICSA, do you know what I admire most about them? They are not involved in any smear campaign. They refuse to list “bad groups.” They would NEVER accuse anyone of being a cult follower and denigrate that person’s legitimate point of view. They would never abuse that person.


    They are simply there as a resource to help those who are being harmed. That is a perspective which I can engage with fully.

    And by the way, there is not one mention, in all the many many articles which they provide, of a Tibetan Buddhist cult.


  63. Chris, once again, you are ill-informed. Here is a quote from the BBC dated April, 2013:

    “Foreign media are banned from the region, making verifying the self-immolation cases difficult. Chinese state media have confirmed some but not all.”

    Here is the link:

    Here is another link:

    And there are many more. Your “information” about conditions within Tibet and the reasons for the self-immolations are coming from the Chinese Government propaganda machine. There is no other source, other than the Tibetans in exile, who wouldn’t be speaking as you speak. So you cannot claim to know anything about conditions within Tibet. You cannot.


  64. . Most people who read the articles at ICSA are trying to ‘come out of a cult’ and NOT find reasons to reinforce their cult behaviors inside the cult or proselytise about Tibetan Lamaism and how it is not a cult as you have done here, but good luck Joanne, However , they usually want resources cited, so you might want to start reading something more than articles and news from the official Lama sites for your ‘article’ on the ‘cultic nature’ of Tibetan Lamaism. Fortunately, I doubt if they will publish “Odes to a Cult” on their site, but who knows, there are many pro-Lamaist psychologists there.



  65. “Nothing you can say to these devotees” Sankhappa” I meant to type. Nothing, like talking to a ‘block of wood.”


  66. Nothing you can say to Sankappha , Nothing. Like talking to a block of wood.

    Not only have the Chinese let the foreign media inside Tibet, but Maxime Vivas the French journalist wrote the book “Behind the Smile” The Hidden Face of the Dalai Lama, out of his travels with a group of foreign journalists in 2010, and his book was written as a result of what he actually saw in Tibet, and although not ideal, was much better than how they lived under the Lamas rules,

    Further, not only have foreign journalists , but The Tibetan Lamas themeselves, , like Tai Situ Rinpoche, have been rebuilding their monasteries in Tibet. This is one of the reasons that India keeps the Eco Karmapa, whom Tai Situ ” recognized” under house arrest, and restricts Tai Situ’s travels as well. Yet these Lamas perpetuate this profound ignorance in their own ‘sanghas” “Don’t read history” they say. You bet they say that.

    While allowing the ‘perceived’ ‘holocaust of the Tibetan people” continuing in China, to be broadcast far and wide in the west., the Tibetan people can practice their religion, and are the only ethnic group in China that is allowed to have more than one child, Their monasteries in China are growing at an alarming rate, and unfortunately, Tibetan Lamaism is becoming very popular in China, albeit in a sanitized form.

    Not only has the Dalai Lama, started to make overtures to the Chinese government about ‘giving up’ on Tibet Autonomy as the article in Financial Times indicates, (the Lamas always know which side to take for their survival) but so has the Dalai lama’s Prime minister ,Lobsang Sangay, who actually is just a figure head for the Tibetan ‘democratic” government,( there are no opposition parties, and the parliment is just set up to approve the Dalai Lama’s decisions). Sangay dances to the Dalai Lama’s tune, so that he too has been talking about being ‘enfolded back into the motherland” and accepting Chinese rule, This of course ,makes a tragedy again and betrayal of all the sacrificed Tibetans, who remain loyal to this “gaggle of an oligarchy” , Tibetan style, including those that have self-immolated For NOTHING, as these clerical deceptors, always sniffing out what is best for their own survival, and changing like the wind, suck up to China, now that that is where ‘their interests lie”

    Western Tibetan Buddhist/ Lamaists are pathetic, they don’t even read about what is even happening in the politics of their ‘tiny world of their Gurus and their machivellian politics” that they ‘wave their ‘Free Tibet” Flags for, they remain virtually illiterate, and are taught and believe Dalai Lama and Tibetan Lamaism is ‘non-political.

    One can see how a whole area like Tibet could remain illiterate for a 1000 years, under the yoke of these Lamas and the Dalai, by just reading and observing the profound ignorance of the western devotees, to ‘espouse’ such distorted fiction as “fact”

    This is why the Rupert Murdochs and the other international Globalists and their ‘social engineering NGO’s, elevate this primitive religion for the future west, so that the masses can be as ignorant as is demonstrated on this site , by those that ‘believe in the Kundun.”


  67. I have just joined the International Cultic Studies Association. The sanity and intelligence of the articles written on that site are definitely a balm for my jaded senses after too many hours spent wrangling here with nonsense! I intend to do some writing on the subject of cultic practices within Tibetan Buddhist culture, perhaps some time in the future.

    You see, one vital point that is missed by people here, who accuse me constantly of being a cult follower, is the fact that I acknowledge problems within Tibetan Buddhist culture as it is manifesting in the West. I am on these sites precisely because I am concerned about those problems. However, I refuse to engage in the simplistic, all-or-nothing thinking expressed here. To wipe a black brush over an entire religious and cultural tradition in response to some problems is simply childish and silly to my thinking.

    Mike keeps insisting that I am cultish because I won’t accept that there is NO good lama. I say that such superlatives as “NO good lama” or “ALL lamas are part of a Lamaist Cult Conspiracy” do not belong to intelligent discussions about Cultic activities.

    Fortunately, I have found many who share my perspective within scholarly works on Cultic studies!


  68. Sankhappa, have you visited Tibet? Have you spoken with Tibetans inside Tibet? How can you speak about what you don’t understand? How can you judge Tibetans this way? I find your attitude heartless.

    We simply cannot discuss the self- immolations without a proper understanding of the conditions within Tibet. The assumption here on this thread is that things are not so bad for the Tibetans inside Tibet. Those assumptions come from the Chinese propaganda machine and that machine cannot be trusted.

    If the Chinese have nothing to hide regarding the self-immolations and conditions that have prompted them, why won’t they let foreign media inside Tibet, so that the Tibetan people can speak directly to the world?

    Why won’t the Chinese government let the Tibetans explain why they are burning themselves? If propaganda such as the nonsense Angie quoted from is correct, then why are the Chinese closing Tibetan borders so we can’t hear from the Tibetans themselves?

    What does the Chinese Government want to hide by banning foreign media from Tibet? What about the mass graves that were found?

    Also, Sankhappa, why are there now ethnic Chinese burning themselves as well? 50 have burned themselves, as reported on NewsHour recently. Can you answer that?

    Gandhi starved himself for the sake of a cause. The Buddha gave his body up to a tigress, and to practice generosity in his past lives– he did this frequently. Don’t reduce these actions of Tibetans to black and white thinking, Sankhappa, don’t disparage the very real suffering of the Tibetan people in this way and their courage to speak out in these ways. It is heartless.

    I repeat– why won’t the Chinese let foreign media inside Tibet???


  69. Did some one forget to tell the Dalai Lama that compassion is not a noun it’s a verb. So all the “high and great” teachings from the top echelons of Tibetan Lamaism Corp. (TLC – haha) haven’t even got the DL to a first-base understanding of compassion. Not a ringing endorsement of the so-called “highest vehicle” of Buddhadhamma, which really leads us back to the conclusion of what a pitiful, empty-shell of a vehicle it really is. TLC has been so convoluted and bastardised that it is beyond recognition as Bhuddadhamma, and the results speak for themselves.


  70. Let’s put this into perspective for the severely deluded and brain-washed. Any responsible political or religious leader of any country, if pointless suicide was occurring (as it has in Tibet) in their nation state, would out of common decency, care and compassion make statements for the effect of curbing the continuation of such a senseless and violent waste of life. Yet from the Dalai Lama … nada, nothing!


  71. What a a pathetically appalling response on CNN, that he can’t make comment on political grounds because he is no longer the temporal leader of Tibet. Well how about commenting on compassionate grounds as the “Bodhisattva of Compassion”? Yet no response, no mention that “this is a pointless and senseless waste of life”, or “please stop doing it”, from the “Bodhisattva of Compassion”. Just a simple plea would go a long way to curbing such a pointless waste of life, yet it does not suit his long-term political agenda. The truth is, the DL may have officially relinquished temporal power, but he is still playing a callous and selfish political game to suit his own agenda. “Bodhisattva of Compassion” my arse! As I and others have pointed out ad infinitum, there is a huge gulf between what the DL says and does. The evidence is thick on the ground, yet the thick-headed and blind faith followers, are unable to use their discernment to see this.


  72. 1. Chris expresses a wish for the destruction of those involved in Tibetan Buddhism.

    2. Chris bases this wish on evidence that has fallacies and serious omissions.

    3. Chris shows no concern for the fallacies or omissions.


  73. Chris, you write,

    “Oh, you mean Aaron Beck , Special Contributor to the Mind Life Institute of the Dalai Lama , another Dalai Lama follower, who writes about Buddhism (i.e. Tibetan Lamaism) and Cognitive therapy”

    I’m not sure what your sources for that are? From what I know, Beck met with HH Dalai Lama only once– in Stockholm, I believe. They agreed about many things, but I’ve never seen any collaboration since. Do you have a source for Beck writing about Buddhism and Cognitive Therapy? If so, can you demonstrate that it is Tibetan Buddhism?


  74. Steven Norwood: The Ivory Tower and the Third Reich” about the complicity of academics on American campuses. Shocking, it shocked me. But these are the same people , on the so-called left of center, that have taken a right turn and are being duped by the Dalai Lama along with the pseudo-scientists. Lets see , as his ‘political cache’ and currency diminishes on the world stage, how many of these ‘celebrity psychologists and academics say, as they did in 1944 , when Hitler became a pariah and his real agenda became obvious “I wasn’t really fooled by him, not at all.”.

    Perhaps it is why Germany and other European countries are waking up sooner than the U.S. Hitler was supported by Icons of the liberal left in the U.S. such as H.G. Wells, and Bernard Shaw. And the so called elite sister college universities in the U.S. continued the ‘exchange programs’ through out most of the war , until the U.S. entered it, with junior year college students shipping to Berlin under the Nazi flag and coming back and proselytising for Hitler.

    So is it surprising that academics and psychologists could be duped again? Not at all.


  75. Oh, you mean Aaron Beck , Special Contributor to the Mind Life Institute of the Dalai Lama , another Dalai Lama follower, who writes about Buddhism (i.e. Tibetan Lamaism) and Cognitive therapy”

    Part of the gaggle of psychologists , like Daniel Goleman , of Soygal enabling fame? that you always quote, as ‘objective references” and who will go down in history as part of the “useful idiots brigade of psychologists and peudo- scientists” that will go down in history as the dupes of the Dalai Lama?

    Now part of ‘social engineering’ the world for the wealthy power elite of oligarchs of the Club of Rome ilk?

    As usual, you do confine your reading to a very ‘select bunch”.


  76. Perhaps you can battle with someone else about how ‘compassionate’ you are Joanne. I am not interested in this game anymore.

    I am not interested in defending myself, with thought controlled clones of the kind of compassion Mr. Kundun promotes.

    I ended that game of evaluating how “compassionate” I am and how compassionate or not, everyone else is, and comparing “compassion credentials” long ago.

    You are still there in the sick, turd -filled pool of self-righteous bullshit that actually causes suffering in the world, doesn’t end it. .


  77. I sleep deeply and like a baby now, since I left the world of the ‘compassionate’ Lamas , and their sick thought control, and took back my human inheritance of natural intelligence and ordinary compassion that was always there, and only “buried” under a mound as high as Mt. Meru of bullshit , and rhetoric that stole my life away.. .


  78. Any ordinary person, has more real compassion in their little finger than all these Tibetan Lamas and their self-righteous followers, combined. That is what they don’t want ordinary people to know.

    Any ordinary person, would say STOP if they had the power to end the suffering of these monks and nuns setting themselves on fire, it would be an automatic, natural human response of compassion. The Dalai Lama does not have even the most ordinary level of compassion while being represented as an Icon of ‘compassion’ to the world. That is starting to become obvious to the world of the ordinary people that you are no longer a part of Joanne. you are in the ‘ether world’ with your avatars.

    Only a very confused mind, filled with rhetoric and endless words about “compassion” would hesitate, or do nothing,or continue to blind themselves and make excuses for this terrible craziness, and indifference and political game playing of the Dalai Lama, posing as compassion.

    The world will take off the blinders to who this Dalai Lama is. Unfortunately, his die hard followers will not. So like him, they need to be ‘marginalized’, not having any influence any more, because thekind of ‘compassion they are promoting in the world is very dangerous.


  79. Chris, comments such as wishing others to be “destroyed” reflect hatred and ill will. Such feelings are most harmful to the person who feels them– not only the Dalai Lama says that, but the Buddha himself did and modern psychologists such as Aron Beck. When I read your posts, I imagine someone who is not very happy, who has trouble sleeping, has racing thoughts and who is short-tempered. That’s what I meant when I spoke of a dark, tormented place.


  80. Always confusing my remarks about the main leaders of Fundamentalist Theocratic groups with the people. Always twisting what I say, because you can’t bear to look at what your Mr. Compassion is actually doing and not doing to contribute to violence , hatred and suffering in the world and not ‘alleviating.’ with a one word. Just one word. Stop.

    Go back to your cushion and pray , . I am sure you are far more ‘compassionate” than me Joanne. You can have that label, that title you have bestowed on yourself, along with the rest of the self-righteous.

    . I am not interested in patting myself on the back about ‘how compassionate ‘ I am, like you are,

    I am interested in doing something, saying something helpful, to wake people up. You are part of a movement to make sure people stay asleep. You are very dangerous.

    if there was a fire in the room, I would yell FIRE, if there was a child about to be hit by a car, I would yell Stop.

    Go back to you cushion and bubble of self-righteous peace like your Kundun..


  81. Chris, something you said a few days back sits very heavy with me. You said, in regard to Islamists and Tibetan Buddhists:

    “If I had a wish , it would be that both those groups destroy each other, that would be the best thing for the human race. Maybe we will get lucky and all the fundamentalist, misogynistic theocratic groups can destroy each other. That would be my wish, and leave the rest of us in peace.”

    Really? You would wish for millions of people to be destroyed? What a dark, tormented place you’ve put yourself in.


  82. Further in this Interview with AMY from Financial Times above:

    “With that, my time is up. I am presented with a white prayer shawl, and sent back into the streets of Dharamsala. But the next morning, the Dalai Lama’s private secretary calls. His Holiness feels he was not clear about his position on the self-immolations, I am told, and wants to better explain himself. Hours later, I am back in the residence, and the maroon-robed monk strides in.

    “One word,” he says, firmly. “Those self-burnings: these people, not drunk. Not family problems … The overall situation is so tense, so desperate, so they choose a very sad way … It is difficult to say, ‘You must live and face these unbearable difficulties.’ If I have some alternative to offer them, then I [can]say, ‘Don’t do that. Instead of shortening your life, please live long, and we can do this and this and that.’ But [I have] nothing – no alternative. Morally, [it’s] very difficult. There is no other choice but to remain silent, and prayer. Clear?”
    From the same article of Financial Times:

    Can anyone believe this? Even thought he KNOWS he could save lives by simply saying one simple word, STOP! as any sane person, any simple sane person with a modicum of compassion would do, if they knew they could stop someone from terrible pain and suffering, just by saying one ‘word’ !!! And he says nothing, , Mr. Avolokitsharavara, the Deity of Compassion in Human form, Mr. Dalai Lama, unbelievable.

    “There is no other choice by to remain silent, and prayer. Clear?”

    And there you have it in a nutshell, the Lamas view of what ‘compassion is, i.e. to remain silent , do nothing and pray. Of course they aren’t really remaining silent they are instead, these Lamas organized an event to honor all the people that burned themselves up for the Dalai Lama. And there you have one of the most glaring examples, if anyone was listening , of who these Lamas really are. And the only question that remains is : How long is the west going to remain phenomenally stupid about who these people really are?

    Yes, its clear Mr. Dalai Lama, you are not only NOT compassionate you are one of the most confused people on earth, whose brain is ‘misfiring” they should take that Noble Prize back from you, because clearly you are not only an IDIOT!!! in Robes. You are the biggest idiot of all of them.

    And now we know why these Lamas let their people suffer for a 1,000 years, because, as the Dalai Lama says, ‘there is no other choice, but to remain silent, and pray.” It’s not their problem! Even though the Dalai Lama has incited these people to burn themselves up, and has incited their violence with this hate mongering and blaming the Chinese and not letting these Tibetans go and live their lives in real peace, and only because he wants to get back to Tibet and be a tyrant over them again!

    Wake up west, wake up. Come out of your slumber. I bet even this interviewer couldn’t believe what she was hearing.


  83. Ok ok, I concede, I confess…! I really am an alien, come to earth to prey on little old women and take their life savings and control their minds. Time to read my daily cultish influence, perhaps I’ll go into trance tonight.

    And eat some more cookies…


  84. Altera Sophia: Stockholm Syndrome exactly.


  85. Sometimes he slips and tells almost the truth, He forgot to say ‘Tibetan Lamas came to the U.S. and Canada’ for the money.” That’s who made away like thieve’s and bandits with the money. And now that they know there is more money in China, guess where the Dalai Lama wants to go back to? Good thing these Tibetan Lamas have been rebuilding their monasteries since 1980’s while vilifying China for western propaganda purposes.

    Every once in a while, like old people do, even savvy political animals like the Dalai Lama the truth slips out, that constant masks are exhausting:

    “He rises, and so do I, but he continues speaking. “Historically Tibet was an independent nation,” he says. “But we must look forward and according to the reality. It is our own interest to remain within the People’s Republic of China. Tibet is backward … and also wants to modernise … A number of Tibetans illegally went to America and Canada, not to seek spirituality but to seek dollars. Tibetans also love money. For that reason, remain in People’s Republic of China. Plenty of money.”

    Those plutocrats stick together , don’t they?, the Dalai Lama, Rupert Murdoch, and George Soros. Multinational billionaires have no national affiliaton, they just want to exploit the world market now, and the Dalai Lama is such good company and a role model for how to enslave the poor and keep the very rich in high cotton, for centuries!.

    Again, what will the western Tibetan Buddhist Lamaist devotee do now , all those that have been convinced to HATE China and exert their knee jerk reactions, while patting themselves on the back for being so kind, so good, like the Dalai Lama always does in his smirking, sententious, way,


  86. Maybe this translation of my comment from 2:54 am is a bit better than the one of google.
    The women have the right to be sane!


  87. Here is an interview in the what? “Financial Times”, with the Dalai Lama now backtracking and now talking about ‘harmony with the Chinese” now that the ‘geopolitics’ have changed overnight with China, and now he wants to make all nicey nicey. Too bad all you Free Tibet youth, too bad all you 128 monks and nuns that burned yourself up for nothing for the Dalai Lama, He is back in bed with China, he hopes, and the Financial Times is ‘rehabilitating” him.

    Guess who owns the Financial Times? Why Rupert Murdoch of course, Know them by the company they keep.


  88. What a idiculous argument from Joanne in view of the incredible brazenness the critical debate about TB – Lamaism on DI would be attempted to prevent.

    By so much high-handed chauvinistic “overpowering” one can only deduce on tantric manipulation.

    This “Om mani peme hung”, Chenresi Tantra (what means Vajra ( Phallus) im Lotus ( Vagina)) tantric power-thrill can becom also a kind of addiction and it is getting to become a frozen habit of yours!

    The habit of an never ending hunger of compassion and respect, for kindness and true encounter. The opposite of the state of mind “Chenresig” ( Tibetan Buddha of compassion) impersonate to be.

    Although, for women it’s in a special way destructive, because they are only means to an end, it’s neither their thrill nor their power, it’s just a kind of Stockholm Syndrom.


  89. Fortunately China has a long history with these Tibetan Lamas,and the Chinese government KNOWS who these Lamas are, that makes it impossible to for the Lamas to hide, so when we stop demonizing China, perhaps they might have something very important to tell us , about who these Lamas really are.

    “Wolf in Sheeps Clothes they say!!! Over and Over. But we don’t listen, and the “Controlled Media of the wealthy elitenow every major news outlet, ‘silences’ this message and substitutes lies about them.

    That is a very very big mistake on the west’s part, not to listen to the Chinese on this message, this is very important to start paying attention to this message about the Dalai Lama and his monk clones.

    . In a way, we have all been ‘thought controlled ‘ to not do our own research, and since it is China, then what could they know?

    Right. The usual western arrogance. China has only had over a 1,000 years dealing with these Tibetan lamas, and we have had what? Sixty years? So when they say “WOLF IN SHEEP”S CLOTHES” we better darn well listen.


  90. Angie, you always nail it:

    “So I take it that negative coverage about the Dalai Lama is the only news that repels you? In that case, why do you torment yourself reading Chris’s comments?”

    Complete denial , compartmentalizing, and of course, always attacking the messenger, ALWAYS, with whatever vile , insulting remarks, they can dig down into their bag of ‘negativity” that they carry around with them , behind them, That ‘bag of negativity’ gets bigger and bigger and heavier and heavier they more they drag it behind them, reaching into it, and flinging out any and all insults at anyone that dares disagree. We are seeing the ‘beginning formations” of the ‘machete weilding’ Buddhists from Burma, of the same ilk. I am sure they feel they are the superior , compassionate mahayanists as well.

    Within the attacks, demonizing, racism (I was called a ‘Chinese communist, later a “Muslim” ,assuming on the labeler’s part that these are insults, but having not even a inkling that she was being a ‘racist’ because Tibetan Lamaist’s are ‘so good’ , ‘so special” and I must be one of the “others” Tibetan Lamaists have lots of “others” that aren’t as ‘superior’ and aren’t as ‘compassionate” then they are. They model the Lamas in this respect, and their arrogance on these issues is replicated.They are actually more and more self-centered, and less compassionate in reality, because ‘compassion’ becomes more and more abstract, and not spontaneously arising anymore. The concepts all get in the way of living even the most simple, straightforward life. The ‘labels’ substitute for a life..

    They also pick up the ‘victim’ mentality of the Lamas, But they way it manifests is this , “I am never progressing enough’ in my practice, I will never be ‘good enough’ ‘perfect enough” That’s how the Lamas hold them for their whole lives, ‘never perfect enough” but much ‘better than everyone else of course” because they have found this ‘perfect path.” It is a horrible , sick doublebind that imprisons one for one’s whole life with them. And that is the point of the doublebind, to ‘accumulate devotees” like they accumulate money and sexual objects’ They really are the greediest group ever on the face of the earth. I don’t think there is a group of cult leaders, who are more despicable. and think how many there are of them now? They are multiplying by the thousands. Like a terrible plague of locusts on the human race. While pretending they are all about ‘compassion.” Demonic. Really Demonic. The world really needs to wake up to who these Lamas really are, and what their agenda is and what it has always been, to enslave the human race.

    I consider the cult devotees of Lamaism even more dangerous than the Lamas , because the Lamas couldn’t abuse people without these enablers in ‘denial. They are what keep the ‘machinery oiled” in the Lama miasma spreading everywhere.


  91. As usual you are making assumptions and coming across as the victim and have gone out of your way to convince me that you have a normal life free of nasty mind control.

    In a previous comment you asked the question: “Chris, is there any place in your theory of cultism and the world for such feelings as respect, admiration and loyalty towards another human being?”
    Why would you think she does not have “respect, admiration and loyalty towards another human being?”

    In a previous comment you said: “The fact that I avoid articles and news coverage that repels me– as much of what you quote does– is simply a fact that I am human, doing what humans do.”

    So I take it that negative coverage about the Dalai Lama is the only news that repels you? In that case, why do you torment yourself reading Chris’s comments?

    You say: “I am not that happy with how little progress I am making with my study and practice, but I do my best– and I’m alone in this endeavor, except for the Buddha in my heart, my deep faith in the Buddha. And except for my respect for HH Dalai Lama, who is a great teacher.”

    You want us to understand that you are not perfect and have embraced the Dalai Lama as your teacher to become a better person, and it is difficult for you to accept any other version of the man accept the role he plays in your life. Anything past or present that does not fit in with your image of him does not exist or best avoided and how dare anyone think or say otherwise.

    Whether you are part of a group or not, a spy for the cult or not, you are still under influence and prefer the fantasy rather than factual evidence. Yes, Joanne, you are free to live in your bubble.


  92. And today I heard on BBC that anti-Semitism is increasing in parts of Europe and they are attributing this to the internet. I thought, yes, on the internet people create entire fantasies about others, they can more easily de-humanize each other, because they never sit down on a cold day and have lunch with each other.

    Reading the posts here, I have experienced just a tiny tiny glimpse of how minorities feel under racist persecution. When others use a black and white formula to tell you who you are, when they don’t bother to find out about you and how you’re a human being just like them, and then just tell you how you fit this formula, it feels very strange and uncomfortable.

    Of course, I can simply get up and leave this thread. Those unfortunate minorities can’t do that.


  93. Angie, you have a very elaborate philosophy to describe my life and why I simply disagree with you–while here I am, eating my lunch on a cold day in New England with my sister and elderly mother. And oh yes, we’re watching CNN and I’m cheering about the good news about Iran, sad about the Phillipines… I’m also about to have a cookie (maybe 2 or 3) and write up a shopping list.

    Do you get it? I’m a human being. I am seeking happiness just like everyone else. I don’t belong to any Buddhist community, but sometimes I do think of joining the Unitarian Universalist church– and I have only one dharma friend whom I see maybe once a year and disagree with about many things. My family and friends are not Buddhist. They are x-hippies like myself. I am proud of my daughters and I adore my grandchildren, with quite a ferocious feeling– none of them are Buddhists.

    But I am a devout Buddhist. That’s true. I study the ancient texts from Buddha and the Indian scholars and I try to be a decent human being. I am not that happy with how little progress I am making with my study and practice, but I do my best– and I’m alone in this endeavor, except for the Buddha in my heart, my deep faith in the Buddha. And except for my respect for HH Dalai Lama, who is a great teacher.

    So there you are. Your story of who I am is much more exciting than this I am sure! And probably when you read this you will think that I am lying. And that is very sad, isn’t it? That your anti-cult crusade has made you suspicious of people, seeing agents and spies and deception when there is just a middle aged woman, thinking about cookies and shopping lists.

    I simply disagree with you, Angie. This is my right and it has nothing to do with cultish activities.


  94. Joanne

    You choose to remain ignorant so you can live in the Dalai Lama cult bubble. You play the same game he does; looking for compassion and ‘right thinking’ when anyone tries to point out the reality of the historical Tibet and Lama/Tibetan Buddhism. Rather than facing the truth, that your cult is narrow minded, focused in on itself to the detriment of thousands of people you continue to deny you are one of many westerners who are damaged by Lama cult ‘philosophy’. You are oblivious to the fact that your comments scream you are a conditioned cult member. It is not just Chris who sees through your conditioning. What you are telling the public is that you are happy to be a puppet for the Dalai Lama, that this is your choice. What you refuse to accept is that your mind was changed for you at a critical moment in time and it would be extremely difficult to reverse these changes/deprogramming without experiencing emotional turmoil. Comprehending Lamaism/Tibetan Buddhist’s need for power, occult practices, consequences of sexual exploitation and greed for money is too difficult for your conscious mind to comprehend fully.

    You would have us/want us to think you are a nice person who has chosen to live a compartmentalised life and most likely with the illusion that this is sufficient to change your life and other peoples’ lives for the better. You remind me of many people I used to know in the Educo cult who strived to ‘make this world a better place’ and they ended up losing everything to the ‘guru’ and anyone taken in by the cult illusion also found themselves worse off financially and emotionally traumatised due to mind controlling techniques. Initially they are ‘embraced’ into the cult mind-set and, during the process, conditioned to avoid current media. Eventually there comes a time when anything that is contrary to the cult ‘philosophy’ is incomprehensible or deliberately avoided. In the cult environment, speaking or thinking outside the cult box brought about discomfort and cult negative reaction and so avoided at all costs. In these circumstances the opportunity to rectify abusive behaviour within the cult tends to evaporate. Very few victims are strong enough to continue confronting abusers as was your experience when you realised how abusive Soygal is. Your need to be ‘embraced’ back into the fold was stronger.

    You need to know Joanne that the more you self-hypnotise cult ‘philosophy’ the less able your mind is to comprehend anything outside of the cult box that is not so easy to ‘embrace’. Yes, it does anesthetise you to ignore uncomfortable factual evidence. Spy for the cult or not, it is very understandable that it sends you on a search for cult controlled information to refute it; the evidence of your indoctrination to cling to your ‘chosen’ ‘saviour’ and his belief system that protects you.

    Like Chris, I can only hope that people who read Dialogue Ireland understand the consequences of being enticed into pseudo religious organisations that are more about mind control/manipulation most notably in financial matters.

    Words of advice to readers, when curiosity gets the better of you and you attend a talk, for instance, on how to enhance your spiritual life, or increase earnings, or whatever the subject is, always check the exit door is easy to access and free from material or human obstruction. When you are restricted to an area that is closed off you can take it that the sole purpose of the gathering is to ‘embrace’ you into letting down your guard and ‘accepting’ subtle suggestions that most likely will include a ‘philosophy’ that empties your bank account.


  95. Chris, is there any place in your theory of cultism and the world for such feelings as respect, admiration and loyalty towards another human being?


  96. In short, Chris, human beings do filter out their world and what sources and people they trust. That is a human trait. For example, I am drawn to speech that is underlined with a message of altruism and what you might call “liberal ideas.” That is my orientation. I don’t consult Republican websites or news stations. I am a little over-loyal towards Obama and struggle to acknowledge his deficiencies. I consult alternative news sources for my ideas on the environment, health and education etc. etc. I consider these to be simply human traits of mine– wouldn’t you?

    The fact that I avoid articles and news coverage that repels me– as much of what you quote does– is simply a fact that I am human, doing what humans do. Accusing me of being a “cult follower” for this simply diverts from the fact that we are two human beings with differences of opinion– it diverts from the fact that you do exactly the same. Without that acknowledgement, there can be no honest debate.


  97. AS for Milieu Control, as you are defining it Chris– you and I both can find plenty of quotes to support our points of view! That is our world, the world of the www. You refuse to ever consult any primary sources, such as the books, teachings and activities of the Dalai Lama. And I refuse to trust such sources as most of those that you quote from, which I consider to be biased. So we are at something of a loggerhead in that regard, Chris, and there is no difference between us in regard to this type of Milieu control. (e.g. if I am a cult follower, then so are you…)

    There are two differences between us, however:

    1. I am not attacking the sources which I refuse to trust, whereas you are maliciously maligning the Dalai Lama and other sources that you refuse to consult or trust. Surely you have a responsibility to gain a full and complete understanding of something before you malign it?

    2. Also, you simply accuse me of being a “cult follower” repeatedly in response to my points of view and my different sources. The word “cult” has a very high level of emotional charge– a dangerous and sinister level. On this thread, it is used simply to describe anyone who disagrees with Chris or Mike, but it revs up the debate as if it’s something more.


  98. And yes, to Alter Sophia, if I translate correctly, Tantric Buddhism, particularly for women, become an ‘addiction’ that is almost impossible to extricate oneself from , I believe now, only with strong therapeutic intervention, received from experts in cult addiction, so these debates are like debating with ‘alcoholics’ on the merits of “alcoholism” for human health and is ridiculous in the long run.

    The material is not put up on this site for those “too far gone” to benefit from the material on how Tibetan Buddhism/Lamaism is a cult and can’t hear it anyway, they would need some form of ‘shock therapy’ in a very controlled environment, and even then , there are those who simply couldn’t be reached.

    But since DI allows complete freedom of speech on this site and has no choice, one cannot help but get exhausted from the onslaught from either “cult fanatics” of Tibetan Lamaism,or their “control agent brigade” members, put out on anti cult sites to do heavy ‘damage control’ for the Lamas.


  99. Cults invoke Lifton’s themes for the purpose of promoting behavioral and attitudinal controls:

    Citing only official sites of Lamas such as the Official site of the Kagyus, which is a Ogyen Trinley Karmapa propaganda site is an example f “Mileu Control” and what is always presented as ‘documentation” for five months:


    1. Milieu Control: This is total control of communication in the group. In many groups , there is a ‘no gossip’ or ‘no nattering” rule, that keeps people from expressing their doubts or misgivings about what is going on. This rule is usually rationalized by saying that the gossip will tear apart the fabric of the group or destroy ‘unity” when in reality the rule is a mechanism to keep members from communicationg anything other than positive statements… Mileu control also often involves discouraging members from reading anything not approved by the organization. They are sometimes told not to believe anything they see or hear reported by the media.”

    From “Cults in Our Midst” M. Singer p 20. Quoting Lifton’s 8 Criteria , which have been referred to in a larger Post on DI.


  100. Citing as usual , the ‘offical sites ‘ of Lamas , such as the official Kagyu site, when Lamas keep their own students mind’s under virtual ‘house arrest” is not documentation or ‘refuting facts”.


  101. “Asserting that the Indian government is keeping Tibetan spiritual
    leader, the 17th Karmapa, in virtual prison by not allowing him free travel abroad to meet followers, prominent Chinese author Liao Yiwu has said that the leader could be compelled to “escape” from India in a similar fashion in which he left China in January 2000.
    The dissident Chinese author, who escaped to Germany last year after spending several stints in prison for his controversial writings, recently met the Karmapa in Dharamshala and extended an invitation to visit Berlin —
    a request that is unlikely to be accepted as there are stringent travel restrictions on foreign travel of the spiritual leader who is a political refugee in India” Liao Yiwu dissident Chinese writer 9/14/2012

    “As Crossette says, the government of India has restricted His Holiness’s movements since he arrived in Dharamsala in January 2000, after escaping from Tibet. But India permitted His Holiness to leave India in 2008 for a highly visible tour of the United States. This year he had to cancel a publicized trip to Europe as well as the quieter one to U.S. To say that His Holiness is under “virtual house arrest” may be an overstatement, but only a slight one.”

    These statements about Ogyen Trinley, the Chinese Karmapa, have articles are both from pro-Tibetan Lamaist sites.. This ‘reality’ of his ‘virtual house arrest has been all over the news , west and east.


  102. “CHANDIGARH: The medical records of the 17th Karmapa, Ugyen Trinley Dorje, which had created a controversy 11 years ago over his age, have gone missing from PGI, Chandigarh.

    The PGI, where he was admitted, had seen a huge gathering of intelligentsia and Tibetans from all across the country when he was crowned the 17th Karmapa. It was then, during the course of treatment, that his age became a point of controversy as it was crucial for being eligible to head the sect.”

    He claimed he had turned 15, which was disputed. “It has been a long time to recall, but his endocrinology tests (hormones, including the growth hormones) and X-ray did not conform to the age he claimed and pointed to him being a major. Our object, though, was not to ascertain his age. It occurred in the process,” said then joint medical superintendent of PGI, Dr D Behera. “I had handed over the medical report to the PGI,” he added. But the present medical superintendent, Dr A K Gupta said: “We do not have his records as it was a top secret document.”


  103. Lächerliches Argument Angesichts der unglaublichen Dreistigkeit mit der eine kritische Debatte über den TB –
    Lamaismus zu verhindern versucht wird. Bei soviel selbstherrlicher Präpotenz kann man nur auf tantrische Manipulation rückschließen.
    Tantrischer Machtrausch ist auch eine Art Sucht. Allerdings für Frauen in besonderer Weise zerstörerisch, weil sie immer nur Mittel zum Zweck sind!


  104. Chris, did you really say this?

    “You two have not engaged in counter arguments with objective sources, but really engaged in a five month smear campaign against me, that started from day one with labeling me with the usual labels, instead of engaging in the facts…”

    Shall I give an overview of your factual lapses, just on this thread?

    1. On Nov. 5, you claimed that HH Karmapa is “under house arrest.” This is simply not true.

    2. On Nov. 5, you also claimed that HH Karmapa is 10 years older than he presents himself to be. That is simply not true– and pictures disprove it.

    Shall I continue?


  105. I love it, who do you work for Kate, of these networks of coporate Oligarchy?. You of course s ignore the main point and focus on me, insult, and label me again, ‘undue influence’ techniques to divert and distract, , which is that China is letting the Dalai Lamas hegemony of mass monasticism , the Lamas who are all under DL’s auspices now, rebuild in China, While spreading the ‘limited hangout stories’ through the Huffington Post and other controlled media that CHINA BANS ALL DALAI LAMA PROPAGANDA!!!

    You really underestimate people’s intelligence , as most of ‘average intelligence’ people do. Plus you are clearly programmed to repeat the same unskillful and hackneyed techniques of anti-anti cult ‘plants”.

    I am gone, I don’t want to bother any more with a site that lets an anti-anti cultist like yourself continue to derail this topic. YOu should have been derailed yourself, long ago. Carry on with Joanne.


  106. It seems to me that only connection you seem to draw between Tibetan Buddhism and corporate dominance is the fact that TB encourages a relaxed and possibly docile state.

    On that basis it would seem that valium, cannabis, morning glory, massages, and even petting zoos should also be included in this great corporate conspiracy.


  107. Chris Chandler, on November 7, 2013 at 3:02 pm said:
    “Now you are accusing and attacking DI”

    I was agreeing with DI, it is about “undue influence”.

    That’s why I asked the one person on this thread (you Chris) who apparently went along with the whole cultist hierarchy thing to explain themselves.

    I agree with the idea that,
    “We are being destroyed within and without, and colonized. You talk about Walmart? Add Apple, Google, Yahoo, Boeing, Cocoa Cola, Cisco, I could go on and on, moving to China, having outsourced all our manufacturing to China as they now take over research and development, while our trade deficit has ballooned out.”

    However, this is old news and has very little to do with the activity of Tibetan Lamas.

    It wasn’t the fault of Walmart, Apple, Google, Yahoo, Boeing, Cocoa Cola, Cisco, etc. that you chose to support the Lamaist system.
    During the 80’s and 90’s when you could’ve made a difference you were the one promoting the idea that, “it is ‘wrong to get angry”.
    I wasn’t.

    That ship sailed a long time ago, and at the time you did nothing.
    Blame yourself.



    Here’s a issue that a reasonable and critically thinking person, would ask: for example. If China is now censoring the Dalai Lama in Tibet, then why are they allowing Tibetan Lamaism to recreate their mass monasticism in China, particularly since the Dalai Lama has created a hegemony amongst and with the other sects of Lamaism, who are rebuilding their monasteries at a rapid rate?

    One would begin to wonder, is this news, published by Huffington Post and other controlled media outlets, simply to further ‘inflame’ support in the West for the Dalai Lama? So that we are ‘outraged’ at the censorship about the Dalai Lama in Chinese Tibet, but not outraged at the spread of more and more reactive support of the Dalai Lama’s repressive regime infiltrating in our own country, and spreading irrationalism and weakening our own sciences and technology and dumbing down our own younger generations who know longer critically reason, but believe the ’empathy facade’ of politicians and religious leaders who have another agenda all together.

    A game now of the Oligarchical Corporate state to actually INCREASE Lamaism support, since China is NOT banning the rebuilding of Tibetan Lama monasteries throughout China and China has more billionaires in their so called ‘communist country’ than we do, who , like the corporate oligarchs here, are not interested in the rights of the people, or devastating our own economies, but in the profit bottom line and their shareholders.

    Dream Works is now in a major agreement in China to produce animated films, a great source of propaganda, the first one will be Tibet Code, and will indoctrinate millions of Chinese, and we can assume it is not anti-Tibetan, and probably not anti Lamaist either. So the double game than all oligarchs play throughout history is very dangerous to freedom, particularly now that they can use such massive propaganda tools. .

    . This should be a red flag to westerners, who care about democracy, because now the coporate oligarchs are in collusion with each other , the western corporations for only short term profit and to hell with their own countries populations economic health., and even though all these American companies, are now Chinese ,and hijacking our research and development. China has announced it will no longer buy even Boeing parts still made in the U.S. It doesn’t need to since it has all the technology now to make these airplanes themselves.

    Why would multinational corporate oligarchies wish to create more support for the Dalai Lama in the west? By publishing these articles that pretend that the Dalai Lama is being banned in China, while allowing massive monastic rebuilding of Tibetan Lamaists and their sects, all under the Dalai Lama’s hegemony, which China knows full well is happeningl?

    These are the questions a truly critical mind asks and we used to ask , as an intelligent nation, Britain should be asking these questions as well, , but instead, we will not ask these questions and we will have an emotional knee-jerk reaction “oh Poor Tibetan Buddhism /Lamaism and poor Tibetan Lamas. That will increase their popularity here and I say that is the reason it is being spread as news in the controlled media.

    Kate and Joanne of course, for different reasons will say this is hysterical conspiracy theory, NO, it is just what is happening on the ground, Controlled media of Oligarchical Corporations spreading emotion , knee jerk reactions in the west, so they don’t investigate the spread of Tibetan Lamaism and mass monasticism in China. as well as the west. Which is the real goal of the Dalai Lama. So has the Dalai Lama actually every stopped being a partner with China? I would say not. Just by simple research that we used to do as westerners.


  109. “undue influence” What people do , are what you an Kate are doing on this site, you try and deflect the issue and the facts and all the documentation provided, that were raised about Tibetan Lamaism, and turn it into a ‘problem I HAVE, or about me” You have been spending most of you time on this site, NOT dealing with the issues or the facts presented, (still haven’t dealt with ALL the Lamas, protecting honoring and adoring Sogyal and kissing his feet, for example) and many other examples. You are still making this about me. That’s what cult members do to deflect questions, criticisms etc.

    Now you are accusing and attacking DI, when you have hijacked for 5 months any discussion, and achieved your goals of stopping and censuring any discussion of Lamaism as a cult. YOU have won. Congratulations. A Pyrrhic Victory for you and western culture.


    Lifton , and what makes a cult in very broad terms” ::

    1. Gurus become worshipped rather than the broader religious principles.

    2. There is a ‘systematic indoctrination’ that takes place in the group , that uses confession and constant self-criticism , group think, double speak, and massive group conformity. Emotions replace critical thinking and reason.

    3. Exploitation tends to come from the ‘top down’ from the Gurus , and their top administration. Exploitation tends to be sexual and economic.

    Those are just broad descriptions. Lamaism , from my experience, meets these broad definitions, and all the other subsidiary reasons for being a Cult of “Undue Influence”. including , but not limited to, “hidden finances” and most importantly using ‘deception’ to recruit and maintain devotees.

    The people who come on here, (now only you two) meet the criteria of Undue Influence as well , such as Tenpel, who was actually a Dalai Lama agent, a monk in the Dalai Lama clique, but doesn’t reveal that on his site, set up ONLY to divert and confuse any and all criticism of the Dalai Lama and to promote the party line of the Dalai Lama, while pretending to be a source for people to make ‘critical decisions”.

    You two have not engaged in counter arguments with objective sources, but really engaged in a five month smear campaign against me, that started from day one with labeling me with the usual labels, instead of engaging in the facts , particularly those that are most uncomfortable, like why ALL the Lamas, including the Dalai Lama continue to support Sogyal of Lakar’s sexual abuse of women? .

    When you focus on disproving THESE FACTS about why Tibetan Lamaism is NOT a cult and how these factors are NOT taking place in Lamaist situations by citing sources, other than the Lama statements themselves and their teachings, then you two will no longer be using ‘undue influence’ to try and deflect, dismiss and will be actually engaged in a dialogue on this site. I don’t expect you to do this, because when I leave the field, so do you two. You are only on here to try and discredit me.

    I don’t think you have succeeded, however, you have provided me with every argument and technique that cult members and their handlers and paid agents use. It has been very very helpful in my research. Thank you.

    So you may have succeeded as most anti, anti cult site attackers do, But you have revealed much more about yourselves, and how you think and how you operate than much about me.


  110. Correction: If you read of the histories of the anti-cult movement in the world, you will be reading the history which is NOW occurring right before our eyes here on DI. That is what I intended to write.


  111. Lifton wrote:

    “Any ideology — that is, any set of emotionally-charged convictions
    about men and his relationship to the natural or supernatural world
    — may be carried by its adherents in a totalistic direction. But
    this is most likely to occur with those ideologies which are most
    sweeping in their content and most ambitious or messianic in
    their claim, whether a religious or political organization. And
    where totalism exists, a religion, or a political movement becomes
    little more than an exclusive cult.”

    Chris, your vitriol is highly charged with emotions– you have gone in a “totalistic direction”– If you read of the histories of the anti-cult movement in the world, you will be reading the history which is not occurring right before our eyes here DI. Anti-cult movements simply become harborers of religious and cultural extremism, hatred and hysteria. They simply become cults themselves. If you look at the history, it happens again and again. It is well documented and here it is.


  112. I have nothing more to say, carry on with your Lama proselytising, I don’t expect either of you to hear a word I say, I have written on this site, because it is an anti-cult site that is supposed to be set up to help people extricate themselves from cults, and to protect people from cult activity by being warned about dangerous ones.

    I can only hope I have done this, warn people about this dangerous cult, , despite your exhaustive measures to silence me , divert, distract and destroy this message, for the last almost five months., .


  113. Lamaism is the religion of dictatorships, and totalitarian countries through out history, . Lamas are not only building their monasteries, and infiltrating into the west , into higher academic institutions in the U.S. and in Europe, while creating a more and more ‘passive ‘ and turning inward population, with each generation, who no longer can even notice injustice, who is being taught to ‘accept austerity’ as one’s ‘karma’ and to never protest any wrong, because it is ‘wrong to get angry” and no longer participates in elected governments, Lamas are also rebuilding monasteries in China with the approval of the Chinese Government, a corporate dictatorship that we have been outsourcing all our manufacturing too, at an alarming rate, while we now experience massive unemployment, and more and more people unable to live even at a sustenance level. If this dangerous, repressive “religion” Lamaism, that convinced its own people, through worship of these Lamas for a thousand years, to accept an intolerable gap between the very very wealthy few and the rest struggling to survive, do you not believe that it would have it’s uses for the same sociopathic parasitic mentalityor a coporate psychopathology? That we see all around us, east and west. in the corporate totalitarianism that is spreading , east and west? . Lamaism is growing again in China, while it spreading here. THIS IS the new religion of the world corporate dictatorship for the New world order of the very wealthy few, and the whole world being a third world, for corporate profits. . That is what you don’t get, and what you don’t understand as you romanticize a repressive , patriarchal ‘trojan horse’ that was the cultural and religious the handmaiden of repression of the the Mongol empire, and the Chinese empire, which is why the Dalai Lama and his Lama mafia is spreading ‘anti-intellectualism’ pseudo science, and non democratic values throughout the west while calling it ‘democratic’ ‘scientific’ calling black white. I know these groups from the inside for many many years, they lie, Varjayana Tantrism allows lying to spread Varjayana Tantrism. it is NOT Buddhism, it is not about compassion like we understand compassion, what it means by a Bodhisattva act, includes burning your self up, or killing if it spreads Tantric Buddhism, i.e. Lamaism and its virus. I believe it is demonic, and will cause terrible suffering, I have seen the suffering it causes, and the way it destroys minds.

    . We are being destroyed within and without, and colonized. You talk about Walmart? Add Apple, Google, Yahoo, Boeing, Cocoa Cola, Cisco, I could go on and on, moving to China, having outsourced all our manufacturing to China as they now take over research and development, while our trade deficit has ballooned out. Fair Trade? There is no fair trade if all these cheap goods come into our countries, is destroying manufactuing and jobs, and a working and middle class. If we want to care about the suffering of the Chinese people? Or the Tibetan people still under the Lamas yoke? We need to not support a tyrannical religion that is spreading both here , Europe, Tawain, Malaysia, Russia, ‘where isn’t it spreading, it is even in Israel. where they start centers , another fundamentalist religious government, and in China, that will repress people more until they are like those Tibetan’s in the Salt men, until we are all just twirling our prayer wheels, and praying for our improved karma in our next life, and blaming ourselves and our bad karma for everything exploitative that happens to us. Lamas are the proto-type of corporatism, the religion of fascism, and the religion of tyrannies.

    I was with ALL of them with few exceptions, because I lived for 10 years in their ‘ Cult City headquarters, where they came and ‘relaxed’ for a few weeks a year, in one of their many houses, when they weren’t in Nepal or India. I heard their conversations when they were ‘relaxed’ I learned how they really feel about the west, and western students, I learned about their sexual exploitation of women and the men who become their slaves in a different way, giving over they wives to them, and sisters and girlfriends, the ones that aren’t doing this, are keeping quiet about it and enabling it . how they are all here for only the money, and exploiting us to build their monastic empires again, in the world, to ‘dumb us down, to get us to substitute ’emotional intelligence’ i.e. superstition and myth, instead of using our intelligence to tell right from wrong, and they are doing it behind the masses of people who don’t see this, i.e the public, whether they are in the U.S. or Britain, or Germany, or Scandinavia, or Russia, Tawain, and CHINA yes China , where they are rebuilding their monasteries, while pretending to be oppressed by the Chinese. And all the people in all these countries, are underestimating them, or believing they are just there to bring a simple peace and harmony message, instead of the reality that they are as dangerous as the fundamental Islamists or fundamental Christians, because they are a theocratic fundamentalism by Stealth, , that lies, steals, exploits sexually,, for only THEMSELVES, they are all about themselves, They are a religion of narcissists and sociopaths, who pretend to be compassionate. , , how they don’t respect us and think we are stupid, and they told us that over and over again in so many ways all the time, and how they had us ,EVERYONE of them ,in all their groups, prostrating to them, humiliating us, and giving up our labor, our money our lives to them, strangling our freedom of thought, and respect for our own cultures. THEY ARE COLONIZING US, I can’t make it any clearer than that, They are the quintessential MIND CONTROL Cult.

    You can believe me or not. . There is nothing else I can tell you. anymore. They are a Hindustani religion that created a caste system in Tibet, they are NOT Buddhism.


  114. Let me put it another way Chris.

    Tibetans seems to love and cling to their hierarchies.

    The only person posting on these threads who has ever accepted that is you.

    The only person who could offer us some insight as to why a westerner would come to accept that is you.

    DI claims “undue influence,” which is fair enough, yet after many months of posts, it is the one issue you have repeatedly avoided.

    Why is that?


  115. Chris, yet again you sidestep the issue.

    You bemoan the problem with the Unions, and yet while I was out protesting you were promoting cultist values.

    You seem so concerned about what everyone else is doing, claiming “undue influence,” even though every story you post is already out there for all to see.

    The only new insight you could possibly offer is the story of how you were “unduly influenced” to take the path you did.

    I notice you repeatedly avoid the fact that the cult you apparently chose to join of your own free will were already well known in their activities as a right-wing and militaristic, abusive hierarchy.

    It seems to me that you were just as attracted to extremist theories as much then as you are now.


  116. Chris, you said, “Of course that Nunber One Hypocrite in the World, who has inflamed hatred toward the Chinese,”

    Could you provide an example of this? I have never seen His Holiness inflame hatred and I have seen him in many situations.

    In fact, every year, on March 10, he makes a statement to the Tibetan people about the situation in Tibet. Here is an archive of those speeches, dating back to 1961.


  117. Chris, you said,

    “You will soon see the U.S. following this change,regarding the Dalai Lama…”

    I’m not quite sure what you meant by that– were you referring to the statement you quoted earlier, by the British that “they had no plans for high-profile meetings with the Dalai Lama…”?

    If so, given that the Dalai Lama has relinquished his role as statesman, I don’t think any country has plans for high-profile meetings with him! It’s not a shift in attitude, is it? I think your statement is rather silly and misleading.


  118. There are many cult members or those in the payroll of cults who ‘infiltrated’ anti cult sites, or who set up websites to ‘appear’ to be a neutral anti-cult site, or source of information for former cult members and are really about diverting, distracting and making sure all these cults are ‘protected’.


  119. You “couldn’t care less,” I meant to say:

    And I couldn’t care less anymore what you pretend to want to know , you are as dishonest as the lamas. you are in good company.


  120. Kate is more than likely a troll for the one or more of the Lamas, like Tenpel, former Stazi from East Germany has his sites up to do damage control. She is just gathering information on me. You could care less about people who have suffered at the hands of the cults. Or what my experience is, you just want to see whom I have connected with and what I know about them. You are here to ‘watch’ and report.”

    There is no way someone , so ‘indifferent’ as he/she says she is ‘but has been on here doing “public relations” and ‘damage control’ for these Lamas , for this long, but ‘claiming to never have a ‘dog in this fight, as she says, would be ‘on the alert’ and always on the ‘attack’ if she weren’t in their payroll.


  121. Angie, on November 6, 2013 at 3:56 pm said:

    “Joanne and KateS attack Chris and everyone else who has a so called negative opinion about the Dalai Lama.”

    To be honest Angie, I’m as indifferent to Anglo-Chinese relations as I am to the political incompetence of the Dalai Lama.

    As DI said, the issue is about “undue influence”, so I’m asking for this information.

    You made it clear that you were lied to and that what was advertised as a yoga course turned out to be an attempt at manipulation.

    Chris on the other hand has said nothing about her reasons for joining an already well known, infamous and established cult.

    One can easily list the dodginess or incompetence of TB institutions in the same way that one can list the same thing with democratic, Christian, Islamic institutions etc. etc. – the daily news is testament to that.

    For me, Chris’ personal story, motivations and experiences would add something to this debate.
    However, her warped interpretation of everyday news does not.


  122. Joanne say: “I mean, Chris, really, please– Karmapa’s sending agents to knock on the doors of little old ladies?”

    This would not surprise me at all. Quinn had an older woman, a member of the Legion of Mary, out selling his cassettes from door to door.


  123. Great idea Chris. Someone SHOULD write a book about ‘Where are they Now”.

    Joanne and KateS attack Chris and everyone else who has a so called negative opinion about the Dalai Lama. The videos have been a great source of information. I can see how uncomfortable he was right from the beginning of his political career with his message of compassion; how he impressed people with his ‘holiness’ while giving no indication of what was going on behind the scenes. How embarrassing for him to have to answer questions from those who are ‘inferior’ to him. The comments from Chris, who feels very strongly about how deceptive and self-serving Tibetan Buddhism is, come across as genuine. It is an insider’s view whereas the other two are on the periphery and under influence.

    I am delighted to be informed as it clarifies what Tony Quinn, the Irish ‘mucky messiah’ conman who studied Hinduism and then gathered ‘devotees’ he influenced “to make this world a better place” he used to build his cult and, in the process, deprived them of the opportunity to live a life that took care of their future needs. Many of them have NOTHING to show for their years of devotion to the Educo /INE cult because they were taken in by his “bullshit blabbery”.


  124. How is Lamaism a cult? I have been documenting and listing the reasons for months on here, and if you two cultified ‘intellectuals” don’t get it by now , you never will.


  125. Yippee, more Walmarts for Britain…!


  126. Of course that Nunber One Hypocrite in the World, who has inflamed hatred toward the Chinese, and has encouraged his own people to set themselves of fire over Chinese ‘occupation’ for literally decades now, and has caused ALL Tibetan Lamaist Buddhists in the West, with the help of the U.S. and British Goverments to knee jerk HATE China, by blaming them for his losing his own country because of Lamaist , greed and indifference and enslavement of his own people is now having change of heart, and is ‘visualizing positive things.” regarding China, and doing ‘tonglen’ for them.

    Of course this would have nothing to do with the British (and U.S. poltical climate changing) that hypocrite thinks he can take back all the hate mongering towards China that he has encouraged and inflamed in the West and among his own people, and actually thinks that the world will forget and he can take back all the suffering his constant anti-Chinese bashing over decades has caused including among Tibetans in China, because he couldn’t let go of them.

    I guess you all will be told that ‘he didn’t mean any of it’ after all. I wonder if he can convince the families of all the monks and nuns that burned themselves to death as a protest against “evil China” that the Dalai Lama blamed for the Lamaist exploitation of their own people, who they then abandoned, leaving Tibet with all their loot and spreading their vile ‘religion’ of exploitation in the rest of the world.

    China should have finished the job with this bunch, they were far too kind.


  127. You will soon see the U.S. following this change,regarding the Dalai Lama, since the U.S. is still a ‘colony of Britain” taking all the “heat and hatred” for British complicity of destabilizing governments around the world.


  128. What will you do now with all your Chinese Bashing reinforced by you Compassionate Lamas?

    Britain Makes an Overture to Repair Ties With China
    Published: October 14, 2013

    LONDON — After months of frosty relations with China, the British government took steps on Monday toward reconciliation, promising to relax visa rules for Chinese businesspeople and some tourists and saying that it had no plans for more high-profile meetings with the Dalai Lama, the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader.

    Ties between Britain and China have been strained since Prime Minister David Cameron met with the Dalai Lama in London last year, but two British delegations were in Beijing on Monday, one led by the chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne, and the other by Boris Johnson, the mayor of London.

    Britain is hoping not to miss out on economic opportunities in China, which other European nations are courting. On Monday, the pragmatic desire to compete for business took priority over political differences.

    In remarks to the BBC, Mr. Osborne emphasized the growing importance and sophistication of the Chinese economy. “Many people think of China as a sweatshop on the Pearl River,” he said. “Yet it is at the forefront of medicine, computing and technology. It’s a very rapidly changing country.”

    Speaking on Monday to students at Peking University, Mr. Osborne said that while other nations have been wary of allowing Chinese investment in strategic industries like aerospace, “we positively welcome it.”

    A Chinese company has announced that it will be part of a group investing about $1.3 billion in Manchester Airport, and the British energy secretary, Edward Davey, said on Sunday that he was close to securing a giant wave of investment in nuclear and other technologies from China and elsewhere in Asia.


  129. Please do answer it on the that thread we would be delighted to have your commentary.!


  130. dialogueireland, on November 1, 2013 at 12:37 am said:
    “Note your focus on being in your head,
    wrong views
    It is not about ideas but undue influence. address that point KateS or go back to College”

    Views means the position you take in regard to something.
    “Wrong views” is a common phrase meaning “not Buddhism”.

    Chris was taught wrong views because she joined a cult that wasn’t practicing Buddhism.

    Why she joined that cult remains unexamined.

    You claim undue influence – where is the evidence?

    All I see, after months of the same, is Chris telling us how to interpret various other articles in the news. Articles that are already transparent and about which people can happily draw their own conclusions.
    (Chris’ failed attempt at “undue influence”)

    Where is Chris’ story as to why she joined, and what “forced” her to come to think that what she was learning was Tibetan Buddhism?


  131. You can’t have an “impact” on anyone without truth, Chris. You can’t even start to communicate your ideas without honesty and truth. It’s a simple fact of we humans. It starts there.


  132. I am done with you Joanne as a sad part of my own past denial, Nothing I present has the least impact on you, it makes me literally sick at heart to have to encounter this cult energy through you again. So carry on talking to yourself, no one is listening to you anyway.



  133. Chris, you said, “India believes that this Eco Karmapa is a Chinese spy and they keep him under house arrest. But you and your fellow faith fools, who have been spoon fed the most narrow information, wouldn’t know this.”

    How can Karmapa be under house arrest if he is travels freely throughout India? If you look on his web page, you will see photos of his activities and he recently travelled to Delhi– and travels freely throughout India.

    Why do you say things that aren’t true?


  134. I guess to be fair, I am having a conversation with myself as well, when I post back and forth with you. i.e. my, naive, and thick and “thought controlled” self of the past, that you so vividly display in such an exaggerated form. it is really amazing to see it from ‘outside’ the box now.


  135. You have finally convinced me Joanne, that I am talking to someone as ‘thick as a brick’ and I am finished, so carry on with your Lama proselytizing, you have proven to be thicker , even than these Lamas, and that is quite a shock, since they had a thousand years of thought control, and you only had a couple of decades, despite a western education.

    You are one of the thickest westerners I have ever experienced. Even most die hard western Tibetan Lamaists I have known, aren’t as willfully stupid and ignorant as you have proven to be.

    You must be on the ‘thoroughly brainwashed” list of westerners. Even thought control experts would be stunned by you.


  136. India believes that this Eco Karmapa is a Chinese spy and they keep him under house arrest. But you and your fellow faith fools, who have been spoon fed the most narrow information, wouldn’t know this. You willfully don’t want to know this, and just keep saying that everyone who reports on more than the Lama Lore spoon fed to faith fools and a naive public that only gets U.S. controlled media information, are lying and deceiving. I feel like I am in Stalinist Russia when I converse with someone like you. You deserve to be in a totalitarian regime, you would be very happy and content there.


  137. China had a long history of a purer Buddhism , coming through the Chan stream, and not corrupted by Indian Tantra which is what the Tibetans got, Indian tantra and ‘guru worship’ that kept their people in a caste system in Tibet for a thousand plus years,


  138. There is evil in the world Joanne, and pretending to yourself that the only evil in the world is China, is a little myopic, don’t you think?


  139. Tai Situ is totally distrusted by India, they see him as a spy for China, , which you wouldn’t know Joanne, getting all your history from the Lama deceivers and the Dalai Lama’s website, that beacon of free press and accurate news. He has been rebuilding his monastery in China since the 80’s ,many of these Kagyu Lamas are ‘in bed’ with China, and hedging their bets between the western empires of power, and the Chinese, so of course, he recognized the Chinese Karmapa, because that is who he has been colluding with for 30 years now. As many of them do. Probably Akong was killed by Free Tibet Lamas who saw him as a traitor, since it was reported at first that he was “assassinated” by these Tibetan monks by one of the Lamas there at the time, and later covered up. Now you don’t hear anything reported about it. A red flag that this has international implications.

    You are such a good example of a U.S. western Tibetan Lamaist, who doesn’t do any research for herself, who only believes the Lamas and their deceptions and calls everything else, ‘lies and deceptions” . When all you would have to do , would be to read something besides the Dalai Lama’s website for your news. Just the Indian news ,The Times of India reports on these Lamas more accurately, than the U.S. since the honeymoon is over in Dharmasala long ago, and they report on the stabbings and violence in the Tibetan communities, and the shenanigans of these Lamas all the time. There is more free press in India than in the west, regarding these Lamas. Did you know that India is sick to death of the millions being used to ‘guard the Dalai Lama, and even the Karmapa’ since they are a pretend ‘nation’ with a pretend government. , .STaying in India , far from the west, is what has allowed Shangri Lai to continue decades longer than it should, I started reading the Indian news , that’s all I did at first. It opened up the can of worms.that Lamaism really is, I decided to simply research things myself, for myself. That’s all it took, which you are not ready , clearly to do..


  140. Chris, you said to me, “You think it is to protect Lamaism, but you are on here to protect yourself from ever seeing the truth…”

    Which truth is this? The one that isn’t true? How can you speak of truth when you are deceitful, over and over and over again?


  141. Yes, Chris, I know you would like people to be destroyed. And you said,

    “All that bullshit blabbery of Love and Compassion, just talk, talk , talk, the meanest and stupidest people I know are Tibetan Lamaists who are in complete denial and ignorance and who would literally walk over any one really suffering and instead go to their “comfy cushions” burning they incense, and do ‘tonglen’ for them.”

    I was quoting from the Buddha, when I spoke of love and compassion in the comment preceding this. Are you calling his words “bullshit blabbery” as well?

    I am truly curious about this, because I believe that you have condemned Indian Buddhist traditions as well as Tibetan Buddhist traditions– and many others. So I wonder if there is any Buddhist tradition which you actually admire? You haven’t indicated any at all.


  142. You are on here censoring this, because you are scared to death of looking at anything I am saying with an ‘open mind” because your whole house of cards will fall apart.

    You think it is to protect Lamaism, but you are on here to protect yourself from ever seeing the truth. You are in a conversation with yourself, and your ‘split mind’ not me.

    . I have been where you are, I although I have to say, I wasn’t as completely fooled as you are, never even in the depth of my thought control I had more sanity then you about these Lamas, but of course I always saw ‘behind the curtain’ being closer in, and I had many experiences over the years to ‘shock ‘ me to my senses, you clearly only had Sogyal, and he shocked you back into a deep delusion with the Dalai, you are scared to death of being where I am, i.e. free and independent again. It’s just too scary for you. So you convince yourself that being stupid for life is preferable, than being free.


  143. Go back to Sogyal Joanne, maybe he can ‘beat ‘ some sense into you with his BIG STICK.


  144. No, what I am saying Joanne , is what is always covered up by stories about the Chinese , which the CIA and the controlled media, AND the Lamas perpetuate, to make sure that you are blinded to who these Lamas really are: So they appear as the martyrs, the victims when they are in fact a group of abused boys, ripped from their families and mother at a very young age, abused , physically and sexually and mentally, by a repressive, theocratic clerical system, that hated women, that was xenophobic,and was a system that put some of these orphaned and abused boys on thrones, surrounded by sycophantic monks, also abused by the system, that has fooled the whole world that is bring ‘peace’ and happiness to the world. and representing ‘compassion’. This would be like letting loose a juvenile, dysfunctional boys home, and making the products of this system, ‘beacons” of light. , , and representing compassion .

    . The last time I looked, this is a formula for disaster , and further chaos, that is spreading throughout the world. Lamaism is a fundamentalist theocracy, no better and in fact worse than the fundamentally Islamist groups, , who also want to rule the world and impose their theocracy on the rest of us. because the Lamas are mass deceivers as well and have so completely fooled people like you, that probably had some native intelligence at one point.

    . If I had a wish , it would be that both those groups destroy each other, that would be the best thing for the human race. Maybe we will get lucky and all the fundamentalist, misogynistic theocratic groups can destroy each other. That would be my wish, and leave the rest of us in peace.


  145. Chris, you said, “the Eco Karmapa, who is actually about 10 years older than he says, you can see his grey hair in certain lights in photographs, that is why it is ALWAYS very short to make himvery bald, because he is really now about 38, not 28, as the medical records showed (which have somehow disappeared) by the first attending physician in India when he ‘miraculously escaped”. These Lamas are corruption personified.”

    Another ridiculous diversion, isn’t it, Chris? The Karmapa keeps his hair short because he’s a monk, for goodness sake. Also, you can find pictures and videos around the time of his arrival in India in 2000– it is clear that he was a boy of 14 and not a young man of 24. If that isn’t enough to convince you, there is a picture of him and Tai Situ Rinpoche, when Karmapa was a boy being enthroned, aged 7. It would be impossible for this picture to be taken 10 years earlier, because Tai Situ was busy doing other things at that time– this can be demonstrated. And how could you stage a photo shoot of an enthronement????

    I point all of this out not because I enjoy wasting my time on childish nonsense, but because I want to make perfectly clear to all that Chris is NOT a reliable source of information– because her words have potential to harm.


  146. What you also don’t know is that many of these lamas, any with an independent streak , were beaten by Thrangu rinpoche into obedience (personal communications) when they were in Rumtek. Most of them spent their early childhood in Rumtek where he was these Kagyu Lama’s tutors and the tutors used big sticks to beat their tulkus into conformity. So they are still scared of him, even when adults in his presence.

    Sharmapa is one of the few, maybe the only that remained independent and stood up to all this massive hatred and slander by these Kagyus tulkus who used to be kissing his feet, before this Chinese Karmapa arrive, and who stuck to his guns regarding this imposter , the Eco Karmapa, who is actually about 10 years older than he says, you can see his grey hair in certain lights in photographs, that is why it is ALWAYS very short to make himvery bald, because he is really now about 38, not 28, as the medical records showed (which have somehow disappeared) by the first attending physician in India when he ‘miraculously escaped”. These Lamas are corruption personified.


  147. Chris, I was only commenting on the authenticity of your source– that it is a biased source and that the story is just plain ridiculous. You have one spin, the same spin over and over, and that spin has nothing to do with truth.


  148. Yes, Joanne, so superior, YOU are one of those little old ladies, and don’t know it.


  149. Yes , of course, you wouldn’t have an independent thought about Sharmapa, or finding out for yourself, about anything independently, because all the Lamas have told you that the Dalai Lama’s Karmapa is the “real one”, even though the Karma Kagyu have never had the Dalai Lama ‘recognize ‘ a Kamapa in their thousand year history.

    I an not interested in any of these Lamas, they all fight with each other, and kill off , and assasinate each other, they are a VIOLENT group and always have been, but you are so programmed that as soon as you see the letter was on a group you have now been programmed to knee jerk hate and call the “enemy”, NOT because you researched this yourself of course, but because ‘the Lamas told you to” you just dismiss the letter. You are like the Tibetans in exile, who started vandalizing their Tibetan neighbors shops because they were targeted as Shugden practitioners,( as was the Dalai Lama at one time) , and only because the Dalai, that AVATAR GOD KING , told them that no ‘Shugden worshipper’ should be allowed in his monasteries.This cause violence and scapegoating within the communities. This was a 1/3 of the Tibetans inexile in India.

    So , because Thrangu, only a Khenpo and not a high lama, soon after all the old Kagyu and Ningmya lamas died off, and being the consummate politician that he is , with that big grin, hooked his star to the Dalai and took the rest of the Kagyus with him. you wouldn’t know of course, being a fringy, that these high lamas that are now ‘going along’ as they always do with where the power is, , secretly keep the Sharmapa as their ‘real lama’ and have pictures of the Sharmapa on their personal shrines. They are just hedging their bets, and hoping that this will end when the Dalai Lama dies. The Sharmapa’s Karmapa is doing quite well in Europe, only in the U.S. where you have knee jerked been taught by Dalai, to hate and point ‘fingers ” without doing any research of your own, do the faithfools think that this weasel is the ‘real Karmapa. That’s why the this Karmapa can’t wait to get back to the west and have a whole audience of faithfools that haven’t an independent thought in their heads.. It is a mess, all of this sect fighting the whole mess is being revealed in India, and slowly , slowly in the west,


  150. And Mike, as for my response to any Lerab Ling stuff, I believe that such responses belong to another thread. This one is about Hegel and the authenticity of Tibetan Buddhism– whether or not it can be reduced to a term called “lamaism.” Of course, whenever I attempt to address that issue on its merits alone, by referring to authentic Buddhist sources, I am told that I am showing off etc.etc. I haven’t heard talk like that since high school.


  151. I mean, Chris, really, please– Karmapa’s sending agents to knock on the doors of little old ladies? Do you have no sense of smell for the ridiculous? None at all?


  152. Hey Chris, is that a reliable source for your “open letter…?” I mean, give me a break, that letter is published by Sharmapa’s group, who have been trying to discredit HH Karmapa for many years.

    Unfortunately, that group is no more reliable than your other main sources, the Chinese government and Western Shugden society.


  153. And frankly, listening to you on here, Joanne, you deserve to be back with Sogyal. Maybe you can go back and beg him to hit you with his big stick and let you lick his stinky feet.

    It’s obvious that this is your real ‘aspiration’ to once again be “coddled and cuddled” by these monsters in robes.


  154. Oh yes, Joanne, I forgot, your ‘compassion is selective’ and doesn’t extend to the Shugden worshippers, , (about a 1/3 of all Tibetans in Exile that you are always pitying in the abstract), nor for the Chinese, those two groups that the Dalai Lama has taught you to hate, in your ‘selective compassion” with his HATE MONGERING of decades now.


  155. Go to the site: : and scroll down to click on “Open Letter to the Dalai Lama from the Hong Kong Karma Kagyu Lineage Center”


  156. In 2005 or 2006 Sogyal came to where I was living, thanks to Tsoknyi R , and Mingyur R, two Lamas among the many that support and “honor” him . A woman there , who had spent all her money on renovating her house, offered the house for a week , so that the “little fat lascivious one” could carry on in private his sexual exploitations, while also doing the retreat, pretending to be a ‘great lama with wisdom”.

    Afterwards that woman wound up living in her car in Boulder, she was so broke , after unsuccessfully trying her hand at retail jobs. I don’t know what happened to her, I know that at 60 , she was still trying to find a husband to support her, she had giving over her whole life to Lamas and Lamaism , and this is how she ended up. Someone should write a book about ‘Where are they Now” all these old hippies of he 60’s , female victims of Lamas, without the trust funds to fall back on, living now in subsidized housing and on food stamps. or the many 75 year old western men in Tibetan Buddhism Lamaism, still on the hunt, trying to ‘pick up ‘ newbies , young women , naively coming into this cult of lasciviousness and exploitation, believing that these Lamas are just about compassion and have something to teach about it. The 75 year old men , still lascivious, after years in these western Lamaism sanghas, disgusting.

    They are like spiders in a lair , these Lamas, I I would watch them ‘purvey’ the new audience, and pick out the new young women to flatter and eventually bed, and the old women who have money, (they are very good at ascertaining this immediately ) and, whom they hope will make an endowment when they pass on.

    Here’s a letter from a Hong Kong Karma Kagyu Lineage Center writing to the Dalai Lama about the ‘corrupting and deceiving acts” of Thrangu centers in Hong Kong, about what this Karmapa, that icon of virtue that the Dalai Lama hopes to insert upon the world like a scourge when he dies , has been up to, literally seeking out elderly women to exploit , these lamas are completely unscrupulous in India, where they don’t have to pretend as much as they do in the west since they ‘blend into the guru corruption” rampant in India., This is the Karmapa caught in the money laundering scandal, in 2011, and whom India keeps under house arrest:

    According to this letter, from a Hong Kong sangha , the Karmapa hired two ‘agents’ to knock on ‘elderly womens’ doors, and tell them that the Karmapa ‘had a dream about them ‘ and they needed to come and study with him in India as he was their Guru:

    This Karmapa is getting more desperate, since India refused to let him travel again to America in 2010, and fool people like Joanne; he had made so much money from the faithfools in the U.S. in NY and Boulder, that he couldn’t wait to come and fool them all again. We can see how easy it is by the posts here.


  157. Chris, first you are writing about those poor Shugden worshippers– and now you are writing about those poor Chinese. I do wonder about the secret closet you reside in…


  158. Chris, you say, “I have not incited HATRED toward a whole race of people , the Chinese, so that Mongolians are killing them, and anyone who associates with them… I am not blaming everyone else for the greed and exploitation that cause me to lose my own country…”

    So are you saying that the Chinese are victims in the events of the past 60 years? Are you denying that the Chinese invaded Tibet? That they burned monasteries and killed thousands, if not millions of Tibetans? Are you denying that Mao killed at least 25 million of his own people (conservative estimate)? That Mao can be considered a greater tyrant and butcher than even Stalin or Hitler?

    If so, I have plenty of sources to refute your point of view! And as for Tibetans inciting hatred of Chinese, I think you will find that the speech of the leaders of Tibetans in exile is remarkably restrained. They protest, but they do not incite hatred– they do not speak in the emotionally charged ways that you speak.


  159. You can’t answer, because the Lamas, supporting and elevating Sogyal , that toad, and lascivious creep, makes everyone of them part of the abuse, and anyone with even half a brain knows this. It is not rocket science and one doesn’t need to ‘study the sutras and shastras” to know this. ANYONE sane would know this.

    That is how all abuse continues, because of denial and enabling. Sogyal couldn’t have done what he continues to do, without these Lamas supporting it , to a one, including the Dalai Lama. . It ‘s the simple fact that you can’t face nor confront.


  160. I am calling out hypocrites and liars, I am not causing 128 people to burn themselves up for a dead cause since 2009, nor am I allowing hundreds , maybe thousands of women if you count all these sexually abusive lamas , who are enabled and confused by the double talk of the Dalai Lama and his Lama mafia ‘elevating to sainthood’ the most evil and lascvious amonst them, I have not incited HATRED toward a whole race of people , the Chinese, so that Mongolians are killing them, and anyone who associates with them… I am not blaming everyone else for the greed and exploitation that cause me to lose my own country, and have to flee like a coward, leaving my own people behind , as I left with my tons of gold, and my family of hillbilly aristocrats that I put in all the high offices in the Government in Exile. , I didn’t keep my exiled people mired in ignorance and make sure they didn’t get educations, but instead kept all the donations , billions now, to keep my lama mass monasticism going, and to make sure my exiled people were still mentally enslaved to me such that they are in chaos and more and more confusion in India, unable to let go of the 8th century and their Lama worship and move on into the 21st century. . ,

    All that bullshit blabbery of Love and Compassion, just talk, talk , talk, the meanest and stupidest people I know are Tibetan Lamaists who are in complete denial and ignorance and who would literally walk over any one really suffering and instead go to their “comfy cushions” burning they incense, and do ‘tonglen’ for them.

    Lamaism creates a form of sociopathy, it makes people more and more self-centered and stupid, while they pat themselves on the back as being very ‘superior’ and telling themselves that they are the compassionate ones..

    You don’t answer , five months later, a simple question that we have asked you about these Lamas supporting Lerab Ling, instead you have to see the people questioning you as evil and dissparage them , and demonize them , as you did from the beginning, for having dared to question the behavior of these Lama narcissists on thrones, also blathering about ‘compassion’ while doing the opposite in the world, and attacking anyone that criticizes the Lama support system of enablers like yourself, as you are doing over and over again, while you pat yourself on the back for being ‘sooo kind’ and so non-judgemental. Anyone that would see clearly this evil and NOT speak out about it, is part of it.

    You and your ilk make me sick you are such cowardly hypocrites . You deserve to spend many lifetimes with your ‘precious ones.”

    You aren’t going to answer these questions about the Lamas because you can’t, you are as tied to them mentally as if you were a slave and you call it ‘freedom’. Piteous , the lot of you. You deserve only pity..


  161. Commentary on Lerab Ling Joanne still waiting before you get tired. Mike here not Chris. Stop dumping your stuff on her. Stop kicking her on the shins and play soccer


  162. Joanne you are getting uo earlier are you addicted? Chris actually made a number of points and you do not refute them but claim they are hate speach? What planet are you on? HH


  163. Also, frequently in comments by both Chris and DI, the link between Buddhism and Hinduism is spoken of as a means to disparage Buddhism. Is there something wrong with the Hindu religion?


  164. Chris, the Buddha was filled with extraordinary love for every being, down to the smallest insect. He would never use deceit to harm another being. He would never lie in order to harm. If he wanted to expose faults in another, he would first make sure that his facts were right. Then he would make sure that he was speaking out of a calm, tranquil mind. He would would make sure he was speaking out of love for the person he was exposing, out of a concern for that person’s welfare.

    Of course, none of us are in that advanced state of mind, but at least we can admire those qualities. At least we can try.


  165. And there are two observations I would make regarding Sogyal after all:

    1. In both Buddhist and secular, human terms, his alleged actions don’t come anywhere near yours, Chris, in terms of harm. Your actions and words incite hatred, Chris— I have never seen anything like your hate-filled speech, in terms of harming others, even in the alleged actions of Sogyal..

    2. Your vitriol will not do a blessed thing to help the situation in Rigpa or any other Buddhist center. People are attracted to Buddhism because of its messages of inner peace, loving kindness and compassion. There is none of that evident in your hate speech. It is incoherent, raging and filled with deceit. How does that compare to the Buddha’s own words, calm, wise words of tranquility, truth and tolerance, which attract people initially? If you imagine that you are helping others through your tirades, you are simply wrong.


  166. The Dalai Lama’s name was given by a Mogolian Khan The name is a combination of the Sino-Mongolian word dalai meaning “vast sea” and the Tibetan word བླ་མ་ (bla-ma) meaning “guru, teacher, mentor”

    “In 1578 the Mongol ruler Altan Khan bestowed the title Dalai Lama on Sonam Gyatso. The title was later applied retroactively to the two predecessors in his reincarnation line:”..

    ..The current Dalai Lama is often called “His Holiness” (HH) by Westerners in imitation of the traditional address for the Pope. It should be noted that there is no correspondence to this form of address in Tibetan.


  167. People really need to read history again, and see how much National Socialism was influenced by Tibetan Buddhism/Hinduism, which were the occult underpinnings of Hitler’s rise to power. Lenin and Bolshevism was also heavily influenced by Lamaism, and there was even a Thanka made with Lenin’s picture as a Deity.

    Mongolia has seen a rise in Nazism and , of course, Mongolia’s religion is Tibetan Lamaism/Buddhism, so there is no conflict there of course.

    Tibetan Lamas have been recently quite active in Mongolia, revitalizing their ‘religion ‘ there:

    “Neo-Nazism is a growing political force in Mongolia. From 2008, Mongolian Neo-Nazi groups have defaced buildings in Ulan Bator, smashed Chinese shopkeepers’ windows, and killed pro-Chinese Mongols. The Neo-Nazi Mongols’ targets for violence are Chinese, Koreans,[81] Mongol women who sleep with Chinese men, and LGBT people.[82] They wear Nazi uniforms and revere the Mongol Empire and Genghis Khan. During World War II, the invading Nazi Germans also recruited Mongol Kalmyks to fight for them against the Soviet Union. Though Tsagaan Khass leaders say they do not support violence, they are self-proclaimed Nazis. “Adolf Hitler was someone we respect. He taught us how to preserve national identity,” said the 41-year-old co-founder, who calls himself Big Brother. “We don’t agree with his extremism and starting the second world war. We are against all those killings, but we support his ideology. We support nationalism rather than fascism.” Some have ascribed it to poor historical education”

    Poor historical education, I wonder if this is because Lamas eschew ‘history’ and tell even their western students not to pay attention to ‘history’, particularly their history.


  168. If anyone believes that ‘history couldn’t repeat itself’ one would just have to read these threads, because denial of the worst abuses and tyranny is quite ‘alive and well” and the same “enablers’ of despotism are still with us, with the Tibetan western Lamaists leading the way .

    No surprise that Lamaism was always the ‘iconic’ religion of totalitarian regimes, it completely enthralls and enslaves minds so that a seamless fantasy and mere rhetoric substitutes for moral discrimination and knowing what to accept and what to reject. It is very very dangerous to humanity and is destroying what the Buddha taught, and it is destroying all authentic spiritual paths of truth seeking religions, as it demonstrates the kind of mind set of denial of all reality ,and what happens to those ensnared in it’s mind control. They will deny everything that doesn’t fit into their Lama worship because that is what Tibetan “Buddhism” is , Lama worship and a master slave paradigm. It enslaves the mind, that is its worst attribute.


  169. Just keep saying ‘inaccuracies’ and ‘hype’ as though that will change the reality. You have learned well at the feet of your lamas, that if you just repeat words themselves, then that will replace reality and make black , white. When you are confronted by the most glaring truths about your ‘holy ones’ you just sling insults as you ‘scurry back’ into your cocoon of dreams. That’s why you are the ‘enablers” of all the abuse that Sogyal will continue to perpetrate, because your own comfort zone and dreamworld is more important that facing the truth of what is going on , all around you. Piteous. You would be one that could smell the bodies burning, from the crematoriums , and would deny that any of it was happening, even after you saw the piled up bodies in graves. Piteous.


  170. We are fully aware that you commented on him but the significant point is that you are dumb now. This is not a religious discussion blog, but I asked you to look at the Lerab Ling video and give your commentary! It is so obvious but you just get it but reflect. You have become our new BellaB!


  171. The difference between serf and slaves in old Tibet would be interesting, in old Europe an serf wasn’t a ware to deal with.
    In westernized Tibetan Tantric Buddhism – Lamaism the women are treated rather like slaves, I think. And they don’t recognize it?


  172. Chris, as I said, I have done my commenting on the Sogyal business, endless endless commenting we all did. If I had more to say, I would be on the other threads.

    I’ve noticed that you have a habit of resorting to emotional hype whenever too many of your inaccuracies have been exposed.


  173. Exactly know I got some interesting information – “you will survive for being silent” and thats what the masters of Living and Dying suppose is the most and absolutly persuasive gift to the people, espacially the women.
    The only “human right” or serf right , they can think about, and thats what I suppose.


  174. And explain how anyone in these sanghas, any of them could ever speak out publically against Sogyal, like the Dalai Lama says to do, when the Dalai Lama honors Sogyal, and when all these Lamas have made a giant spectacle in their sanghas of protecting him, and protecting Tantric sexual abuse in general in Tibetan Lamaism?

    Or is this the ‘double bind’ they have put you in as well, so now you are silent, as you know that you cannot stay in this sexually abusive system without going into denial. Or is there some other reason you can enlighten us with, as you have enlightened us with the Lama Lore?


  175. Yes, Joanne, no more proselytising, what about all these lamas ass- kissing Sogyal,?everyone of them including the Dalai Lama? While telling everyone to ‘speak out” agains abuse? Can you explain how this is NOT confusing to the public and in particularly more abuse piled onto to the victims of Sogyal over the decades?

    . Let’s get back to that and how you rationalize it and explain it. Explain it to people here, because this isn’t being ‘neutral’ , any more than it is a ‘nuetral stance’ to tell the Tibetan people who are burning themselves up,128 now and counting, that they are “great bodhisattvas”

    So stop now your continuous proselytising for Lamas, and stick to what people have asked you to address, almst five months ago, since you seem to be so concerned about ‘defending’ Lamaism, i.e. “why are all these lamas bowing lower than Sogyal ” and protecting and therefore enabling his abuse to continue? How do you explain how they all came out , having their photographs taking with him , even Namkai Norbu, Mary Finnegan’s Lama, who makes a” liar” out of her, just as they do out of you, and trivializes all the hard work , and exposure she went through to expose Sogyal, even holding hands with him,. all approximately the same month documentary came out in Canada, in May -June 2011, “In the Name of Enlightenment?” and all flock to his Lerab Ling in France, during this same summer, and with great ceremony proclaim him , honorifically as their ‘great dharma brother’ and take their pictures with him, and put out on You Tube that sorry abused western “wife” of one of them, who has put up with the mistresses for years, but who is writing books about how lucky it is to be used as a sexual object of old Lamas? Can you explain all this in your defense of the Lama mafia who protect this abuse, and whom you are now silent about? And in particular how this shows how ‘feminist’ they really are, the new ‘moniker’ they attach to themselves. Let’s get back to Sogyal and what these Lamas, TO A ONE, have done and how they are helping to expose his abuse?


  176. DI, I’ve done my time commenting on the Sogyal trouble, said what I have to say. No one could accuse me of failing to have plenty to say about it either!


  177. Actually you always wanted to appeal to him to stop, but now you just defend defend and react, there is no mention of Sogyal. Do you not get it?
    It is black and white you now protect him by your inactivity.
    Straight question look at the Lerab ~ Ling documentary and give us your commentary. Or should that read Lerab ~ BLing


  178. Actually, DI, your argument resembles “all-or-nothing” thinking. You want people to come on side and claim that Sogyal is ALL bad and that ALL lamas are cult leaders. I have never engaged in such thinking, even when I have spoken out against the situation in Rigpa– and I refuse to ever see the world in such a black and white fashion. Nothing has changed with me.


  179. And Chris, have you read about the ethnic Chinese who are now self-immolating? Are you going to blame that on the Dalai Lama as well? Perhaps the fault is with the Chinese Communists? Perhaps conditions are truly intolerable and all these people– both Tibetans and Chinese– have no other way of being heard?


  180. Chris, I seem to remember that you once, in a previous comment, called Shugden worshippers cult followers. Have you changed your mind? (Or perhaps decided to come out of the closet?)


  181. Maybe the only way to ‘shock’ you out of your cult conditioning and thought control under the Dalai Lama’s spell Joanne, is for you to go live in the Tibetan Community in Exile in Dharmasala for a year or so. Particularly in the Dorje Shugden communities since you say you have ‘so much sympathy for the Tibetan people in Exile.

    By the way, the number of self-immolations of the monks and nuns, has now reached 128, and not a word against it still Mr. Avalokitshavara, the Buddha of Compassion the Dalai Lama. .


  182. “This is not by another ‘Lamaist group’ upset because they can’t practice their deity practice:

    This statement needs clarification, because in no way do I wish to trivialize the terrible suffering that the Tibetan people in Exile have encountered because of the Dalai Lama’s suppression of the practice of Dorje Shugden, and the blacklisting of anyone still practicing this deity, (about a 1/3 of Tibetan people in exile did practice DS before the ‘oracle’ told the Dalai Lama to ban the practice). , and how they have suffered from the Dalai Lama’s pronouncements , censorship , and the divisiveness it has caused in the exiled Tibetan community, while the Dalai is a ubiquitous presence all over the west, blathering on about freedom of speech, freedom of religion and peace and harmony. That is why he is being exposed , incrementally , as the biggest hypocrite the world has ever know.

    It is the Dorje Shugden issue that most exposes the terrible suffering the Dalai Lama has caused within his own community in Exile, even upon those who were totally devoted to him, and did the most to help him build his structure within India.

    These people have been scared to death because of the tyranny of the Dalai Lama and his despotism still influencing the Tibetans in Exile under his spell. Here is an article by someone sympathetic to Tibetan Lamaism, her interviews with ordinary Tibetans and Tibetan intellectuals who have tried to break free, regarding the experiences that have divided the community in exile, and how they have been beaten by mobs, their lives threatened, and how any opposition to the Dalai Lama and his despotic rule, is crushed. This is the ‘democracy’ of the Dalai Lama from the voices of the Tibetan people in Exile, “Exiles in Exile:” .


  183. Thanks for that comment it shows that one can seaparate the wood from the trees and see the clear blue sky above. It is very interesting for me as Joanne came to us to show the terrors of Sogyal and to advise me on aspects of Buddhism. She left us when we did not want her assist people using religion, but cultist aspects. Along comes Chris and explains Lamaism=TB like an express train. Suddenly Joanne comes back like a jilted lover and enters into hand to hand combat with Chris. Nothing now get her to say ANYthing about Sogyal. It is a master class in cultism.


  184. No Buddhism, in the end, this has nothing to do with the Buddha Dharma for me. The Dharma can and will take care of itself– as will HH Dalai Lama. For me, this is about my dislike of deception and intolerance. And malicious slander. It’s a purely human response I feel to this vitriol. Yuck.


  185. It’s like listening to a blind person saying, “That’s what I see and know about Tibetan Buddhism, and I am not lying!”

    Indeed, reading Joanne’s posts, from a Buddhist practitioner’s perspective, a bright day light is the same as a dark night, because Joanne does not have the eye for true Buddhism, only taking all Buddhist terms and scholars names.

    Nevertheless, Joanne, my compliment to your writing skill and energy.


  186. And FYI, the rebels (freedom fighters) weren’t formed by the CIA– they were formed by an alliance of the Amdo and Kham provinces in 1956. It isn’t at all odd that His Holiness should be seen with them. The CIA did not train them until later and His Holiness did not know about the CIA involvement until he left Tibet.

    “In midsummer (1957) there was open warfare throughout Kham and Amdo. The freedom fighters, under the command of a man named Gompo Tashi, were increasing their numbers on a daily basis and becoming ever more audacious in their raids. The Chinese, for their part showed no restraint. As well as using aircraft to bomb towns and villages, whole areas were laid waste by artillary barrage. The result was that thousands of people from Kham and Amdo had fled to Lhasa and were now camped on the plains outside the city. Some of the stories they brought with them were so horrifying that I did not really believe them for many years. The methods that the Chinese used were so abhorrent that they were almost beyond the capacity of my imagination. It was not until I read the report published in 1959 by the International Commission of Jurists that I fully accepted what I heard: crucifixion, vivisection, disembowelling, and dismemberment of victims was commonplace. So too were beheading, burning, beating to death and burying alive…” (Freedom In Exile, p. 124).

    And regarding the CIA involvement in the resistance movement, His Holiness writes (and now it is 1958):

    “the fighting throughout Kham and Amdo and now central Tibet continued to gain momentum. By early summer, several tens of thousands of freedom fighters had joined forces and were pressing home their raids closer and closer to Lhasa, despite being poorly supplied with small arms and ammunitions. Some of what they had was captured from the Chinese, some of it had come from a raid on a Tibetan Government ammunition dump near Tashilunpo, and a small amount of it had duly materialized courtesy of the CIA, but they were still hopelessly ill-equipped.

    “When I went into exile, I heard stories of how weapons and money were dropped into Tibet by aircraft. However, these missions caused almost more harm to the Tibetans than to the Chinese forces. Because the Americans did not want their assistance to be attributable, they took care not to supply US-manufactured equipment. Instead, they dropped only a few badly made bazookas and some ancient British rifles which had once been in general service throughout India and Pakistan and thus could not be traced to their source in the event of their capture. But the mishandling they received whilst being air-dropped rendered them almost useless.” (Freedom In Exile, p. 127)

    So His Holiness was not aware of the CIA involvement, such as it was, until he reached India. In fact, I may be wrong , but I believe that it caused something of a rift between him and his brother. I believe that his brother didn’t inform him because he knew the Dalai Lama would probably oppose the move. This is all documented for those who want to know the true story.


  187. Hmm, when your whole life is built on a lie, is that a lie?


  188. At least I don’t lie.


  189. READ THIS JOANNE, the CIA funnels money through these NGO’s ,One of the founders admitted that is what the CIA does. I realize that you are in a fugue state and are literally programmed to glaze over, when anything negative is said about the Dalai Lama, a living trance that you seen not to be able to come out of, and they would wish that everyone that comes through their hallowed doors would be like you, and literally not be able to read what is on the page, I know that is what is happening to you, you even can’t “:see the see the photographs, did you see the Dalai Lama with the Tibetan rebels? in the photgraph? Which you just said he didn’t know anything about?.

    You are demonstrating the way the “thought control” of the Lama’s works, and creating a record of it on DI, and why these Lamas are so dangerous to critical intelligence, just ordinary intellectual processing, let alone preventing any wisdom or discrimination abilities from functioning anymore. happening. Better than anything I could do you are a living example here. You literally just glaze over everything negative, a part of your brain has been conditioned by these Lamas to see and hear nothing ever negative about them, no matter what is presented. After all that is what they programmed us to be, zombies that appear to be mentally functioning, that we can still use western words but our critical faculties are literally FRIED when we are with them and stay under their spell.

    Can we get through to you that you have been cult controlled? That this is not the sign of a mind getting sharper, or clearer when you literally cannot process anything but what you have been programmed to process by the Lamas?. Is this the sign of being in a group that values ‘questioning everything” or forming your own opinions? Or making up your own mind about things, like the Buddha exhorted his disciples to do? . You are in a terrible spell, and I hope for your sake you can come out of it someday. I really do.


  190. Chris, this statement is silly and simply not true:

    “The approval of the Kuomintang government was needed to validate the choice of the Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama. When the current 14th Dalai Lama was first installed in Lhasa, it was with an armed escort of Chinese troops and an attending Chinese minister, in accordance with centuries-old tradition.”

    What a strange circus is being created here, all these fantasies and lies for untold numbers of people to read on line. I mean, I don’t even know where to begin with that statement, but you will definitely find no reliable source for the Chinese having any hand whatsoever in choosing a tulku or involvement with his or her installment. This is clearly a lie coming from the Chinese Communist propaganda machine, which is very worried about having a hand in choosing the next Dalai Lama and being in charge of all big tulkus.


  191. Hey Chris, I am no fan of the CIA– you don’t have to read me the riot act about their antics around the world… I agree! However, the fact that they would want to have a hand in the struggle between Tibet and China certainly doesn’t surprise me.

    However, Tarpley did say “The Dalai Lama has been on the CIA payroll for a while now.” And that’s simply wrong. And when historians say things that are blatantly wrong, then I do question the worth of their work.

    And what does the fact that the Dalai Lama sits for a photo shoot with the (Khampa?) guerrillas have to do with the CIA arming them? What does it prove?

    And what is the significance of the 9 years that the Dalai Lama and Mao were both in China/Tibet? In fact, they tried to be friends for part of that time, didn’t they– His Holiness visited Beijing for 9 months I think and was seated beside Mao at big fancy banquets? At least, they attempted a friendship, back in the early days when both sides were seeking a peaceful way forward. I don’t understand the significance of your 9 years?


  192. “Over the centuries the Tibetan lords and lamas had seen Chinese come and go, and had enjoyed good relations with Generalissimo Chiang Kaishek and his reactionary Kuomintang rule in China. The approval of the Kuomintang government was needed to validate the choice of the Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama. When the current 14th Dalai Lama was first installed in Lhasa, it was with an armed escort of Chinese troops and an attending Chinese minister, in accordance with centuries-old tradition. What upset the Tibetan lords and lamas in the early 1950s was that these latest Chinese were Communists. It would be only a matter of time, they feared, before the Communists started imposing their collectivist egalitarian schemes upon Tibet.

    The issue was joined in 1956-57, when armed Tibetan bands ambushed convoys of the Chinese Peoples Liberation Army. The uprising received extensive assistance from the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), including military training, support camps in Nepal, and numerous airlifts.27 Meanwhile in the United States, the American Society for a Free Asia, a CIA-financed front, energetically publicized the cause of Tibetan resistance, with the Dalai Lama’s eldest brother, Thubtan Norbu, playing an active role in that organization. The Dalai Lama’s second-eldest brother, Gyalo Thondup, established an intelligence operation with the CIA as early as 1951. He later upgraded it into a CIA-trained guerrilla unit whose recruits parachuted back into Tibet.”

    Gee, I guess the ‘omniscient one” didn’t know any of this, right?


  193. “A lot of what we [NED] do was done 25 years ago covertly by the CIA”

    Statement by Alan Weinstein in 1991, , one of the founders of the NED/

    ” In March 2006, a number of activists (including amongst many others Howard Zinn, Gore Vidal, Michael Parenti and David Harvey) launched a new US project called the International Endowment for Democracy which critiques the activities of the NED.


  194. Tarpley is referring to the Dalai Lama being on the NED payroll now, that front for the CIA, an NGO front to make it sound more ‘liberal’.

    “Everyone knows that the CIA funds various covert operations throughout the world. They do this through various front organizations including known CIA operations groups which funnel funds to “various non-governmental agencies” (NGOs) which then use those funds to achieve objectives both foreign and domestic. There is a tremendous history of this funneling to quasi-private organizations … but it’s also interesting how overt some of it is. Much of how the CIA operates has bubbled up due to failures and successes around the world in countries like Venezuela, Egypt, Pakistan and thanks to some American whistle-blowers.

    The #1 thing you have to understand about this…all of this taxpayer money (your money) that is being spent to further geopolitical and corporate goals is not just money spent to overthrow foreign governments…a good amount of that money is being spent to influence the hearts and minds in America too.

    The video below is an investigative report by the great Mike Wallace in 1967 exposing how the CIA used NGO’s over the 50′s and 60′s. The investigation took place 45 years ago but that doesn’t make it any less relevant to today. The explanation of how the CIA operates begins at 5:23…”

    – See more at:


  195. The Dalai Lama stayed in Tibet for 9 years, read it again Joanne, 9 years, after Mao came, no you don’t know history, because the Lamas teach us to ignore history, as one of them said at my retreat : “I don’t believe in history”.

    Convenient if you want people to only read fairy taleswritten by a tyrannical dictatorship of selfish oligarchs in priestly camoflauge. and particularly if you don’t want the faith fools of Lamaism to ever ever know TIBETAN history!


  196. Scroll about 3/4 ‘s down and you will see a picture of the Dalai Lama with the Tibetan guerillas in the front row , seated.

    There is much more on this site , which organizes all the LIES in photographs, and documents thanks to their now being ‘declassified.”


  197. Link below, extensive history AND photos of documents and pictures, including the Dalai Lama inspecting the Tibetan troops, His brother worked for the CIA and still does. Dalai Lama was on the payroll for years, 180,000 , a lot of money for his own personal use.

    So do you think the Dalai Lama doesn’t know still Joanne. that his brother works for the CIA? I love it when you come on here presenting your “facts”, your a little girl refusing to accept that not only doesn’t Santa Claus exist, but he turns out to be a Bad Clown.

    This is another site . The world is waking up , more and more investigation is being done on this Fake in Robes, the Webster Tarpley’s and the Michael Parenti’s and the Maxime Vivas’s are growing exponentially and even psychologists in Psychology Today ! a professor from Brown University ! are writing articles about the Dalai Lama and the truth and lies about Shangri La under the Dalais (this brave soul was of course ATTACKED by the Lamaist trolls in the commentary). .

    : . You better get busy and try and stop free speech and exposing the truth . Because these websites are popping up all over the world, and more and more people are exposing the Dalai Lama’s lies. This is not by another ‘Lamaist group’ upset because they can’t practice their deity practice:

    You have your work cult out for you. Scroll down for a picture of DL and the troops.


  198. One glaring error in the TV interview: The CIA money to the Dalai Lama and Tibetan cause ended in the 1970’s, with Nixon. Webster Tarpley made several statements to the contrary (e.g.”The Dalai Lama has been on the CIA payroll for a while now”)– and at one point he seemed to confuse the CIA money of the 60’s and 70’s with money which the US government simply gives annually to the Tibetan cause.

    Also, Webster Tarpley claimed that the Dalai Lama didn’t think of social reforms in Tibet. Tarpley claimed that he thought only about instigating dissent against the Chinese Communist. Webster Tarpley then stated that the Dalai Lama organized resistance with the CIA towards that end in 1959.

    However, respected historians– who have done the research and published the books– and the Dalai Lama himself in his autobiographies– indicate that the Dalai Lama knew little or nothing about the arming of the Tibetan guerrillas in the 1950’s– there is strong evidence that this was organized by his brother without his knowledge.

    Also, I have addressed previously the fact that the Dalai Lama did, in fact, think about social reforms– and signed some into law– as can be seen in his autobiography published in 1962.

    This problem comes up again and again and again. The views put forward by Webster Tarpley are just like Chris’s and have inaccuracies that are quite glaring– even to someone such as myself who is not an historian and Chris, I am also not a Buddhist scholar– but the errors and lapses are in my face. I don’t even have to dig!


  199. Just ignores it, like so much she is ignoring.

    Ignorance is the Bliss of Lamaism.


  200. Chris, you said, “The only place the Dalai Lama could have ‘operated from’ was India, the world of Throne dwellers, who have kept their people enslaved in Tantric Guru Worship and misogyny.. A caste system, while calling itself a democracy,”

    Could you please explain to me where authentic Buddhism is to be found then, if not in India? I am very very confused about your point of view! What Buddhist tradition IS authentic then?


  201. Note you have gone dumb on the Sogyal stuff and you can find that in the Gita and if you take acid and hold hands with Allen Ginsburg!


  202. You had the views put forward by Chris confirmed by that TV interview but you just drove on regardless. That is what I mean


  203. Lamaism will ensure that all ‘discriminating wisdom” is abolished, i.e the ability to know what to accept and reject, as though the Buddha’s teachings were to become ‘stupid” in regard’ to the world around one, as though seeing the world as a dream was the goal, instead of coming out of all ‘dreamworlds.”

    As though the dharma’s goal was to become so ’emptied out’ , but “inflated” simultaneously, like a gross baloon filled with ‘hot air’. , that nothing mattered any more except the belief that one was very “special” and in a “special , special world”, with other “very special ,special people”. .The Lucky Ones. It is why people who follow this Lama cult, are either on thrones , looking down on everyone else, or “covet” thrones secretly.. They are all “throne dwellers”, or wanna be ‘throne dwellers”.

    The only place the Dalai Lama could have ‘operated from’ was India, the world of Throne dwellers, who have kept their people enslaved in Tantric Guru Worship and misogyny.. A caste system, while calling itself a democracy,


  204. “Just to sum up”:

    What delusion you are under, you now are giving treatises, from your pulpit on the nonsense that these charlatans are presenting as Buddhism.

    Your arrogance has only increased, the more you are with the Number One Throne Dweller of Deception, so that you actually imagine you are an ‘Arhat’ now.

    Your ignorance has expanded beyond imagination, as you use this anti-cult site to propagate this Lamaism Cult as though you are one of the all wise ones, when you have become the spokesperson for charlatanism.

    You pretend to yourself and the world, that these Lamas, each and everyone of them , following in your precious one’s lead, hasn’t promoted, protected and enabled, in every way possible, , the “Lascivious one from Lakar”, whom these Lamas literally lick his feet, and prostrate themselves to him,, documented exhaustively on here, in words , pictures an videos.

    But you completely ignore this fact, that would cause your own delusional system to fall apart and instead quote dogma and scripture as though that wasn’t happening all around you, making you a fool and a liar.

    I bet you wish you could take your ‘outing’ letter about Sogyal back, but its there to show how ‘schizoid’ and compartmentalized students of Tibetan Lamaism become. How their minds are so split under Lamaism’s spell that you they can ignore blatant facts for a dream world of delusion, while unbelievably imagining they are very wise and all-knowing and superior to ordinary people.

    I think that is what I hate the most about Tibetan Lamaists, their amazing stupidity, unable to see what is right in front of their faces, while believing they are inordinately special. and very wise.


  205. Just to sum up:

    Anyone wanting to prove, through scripture or reasoning, that Tibetan Buddhism is not an authentic Buddhist tradition, needs to begin with the ancient Indian commentaries from Nalanda University (5th century AD to 1197 AD). Tibetan Buddhism is founded on the views expounded by these early masters– on their interpretation of the Buddha’s own words. That is fact. The views of emptiness and the tantra practiced and taught within Tibetan Buddhism can all be traced back to these early Indian commentaries. Even the lineage teachings of Dzogchen and Mahamudra have roots in the scholarship of Nalanda University.

    That is not to say that there aren’t charlatans who pervert the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. However, those who wish to discredit Tibetan Buddhism itself need to begin their argument by refuting the commentaries of the great Indian scholars of Nalanda.

    Given the great lack of understanding of even basic Buddhism exposed here, that is not likely to occur.


  206. Also, TK, if you look closely at the Buddha’s own teachings, you will find that he taught differently to suit the different dispositions of students. In some instances he actually referred to something like a concrete self (as being the carrier of the load of the aggregates), while in other cases, he is absolutely clear about the non-existence of the self. So that’s why there is much emphasis placed on seeking definitive verses provisional meanings– and on using reason and logical debate. As a result, we have the incredible works of those scholars of ancient India.


  207. And DI, I have absolutely no idea what you are asking me.


  208. TK, the debate you are referring to, that between the mind-only mahayana and the prasangika Mahayana existed long before Tibetan Buddhism was ever established. If you look at the works of ancient Indian scholars such as Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Bhavavavika, Buddhapalita and Shantideva, you will find arguments refuting your point of view. Your particular position originated with Asanga— and the position that most Tibetans adhere to originated with Nagarjuna. However, the works of Asanga are highly respected amongst Tibetan scholars and taught within monastic institutions.

    So yes there is a debate amongst Buddhist scholars on the alayavijnana, but it has nothing to do with the debate here on the authenticity of Tibetan Buddhism. In fact, you will find some Tibetan scholars who use the yogachara/mind only position to help students better understand emptiness. An example of this is the late Traleg Rinpoche’s book on yogachara.

    There is no lie coming from lamas in this regard, only a point of view based on ancient Indian scholarly thought.


  209. typically when someone lies and distorts the truth often enough, people simply conclude that this person can no longer be trusted

    Well said, Joanne. But you have to mean to Tibetan Buddhism.

    The doctrine of Tibetan Buddhism (better: Lamaism) has nothing to do with Buddhism. Lamas did/do not follow the Eight-Vijnana-Doctrine which is taught by Buddha Shakyamuni; they insist Six-Vijnana-Doctrine, deny the 7th and 8th Vijnana. Besides, their goal of enlightenment is the 6th Vijnana (= Conciousness). All these are strongly against Buddha Shakyamuni’s teachings.

    The 8th Vijnana (= Alayavijnana) is the ROOT of Buddhism. All Buddhist doctrine and all teachings come from Alayavijnana. This is what Buddha Shakyamuni taught before 2500 years.

    Lamaism uses all Buddhist terms but interchanges their true practices with tantric sexual practice.

    For recent years, lamas lie to people all over the world that they are Buddhists, and they do succeed. Either Eastern or Western people are fooled by them.

    Lamas lie and distort the truth often enough, people simply conclude that they can no longer be trusted.


  210. Joanne do you have a missing link in your thinking process. Here you have an objective statement of what Chris has been trying to tell you for days and you walk on by and pretend it was never said…………………………….?
    Are you there Joanne reply to this clear statement of fact please.


  211. And Chris, typically when someone lies and distorts the truth often enough, people simply conclude that this person can no longer be trusted. Isn’t that the case?


  212. You can say what you like about my point of view, Chris, but I sleep soundly at night, secure in knowing that my views are backed by truth–
    And that I would never stoop to spreading malicious deceit or harm another in order to hold on to them.


  213. You are clearly on a crusade Joanne to desperately prove to yourself that you haven’t been ‘duped’ once again..

    No convinced Lamaist would be on a crusade like you are if they weren’t in so much doubt and pain at a subconscious level, Start on that Plan B , a.s.a.p.


  214. In fact, I think it would be safe to say that the Dalai Lamas have been engaged in efforts to reform Tibet and Tibetan culture for over a hundred years. There’s much evidence for that statement.


  215. And Chris, the 13th Dalai Lama’s plan for reform was to make modern education available to all Tibetans, both within and outside of monastic institutions.

    Which is what the 14th Dalai Lama is succeeding in doing, at least for Tibetans in exile.

    That is the truth.


  216. No, Chris, the13th Dalai Lama definitely sent boys to England for a regular English education. It had nothing to do with the military. Were you trying to divert from the truth again?

    However, you are correct that he also did work on building up the military to modern standards and the English army did train them and he was opposed by many of the elite in Tibet for all of his reforms.
    He was likely opposed because he was the first Dalai Lama to wield power in hundreds of years.

    Another example of the Trimondi’s distortion of truth through leaving out important information is their interpretation of tantra. For example, they take a few quotes from the Kalachakra tantra, completely out of the context of the tantra as a whole and completely outside of understanding the role that tantra plays within the Buddhist path. And then they make conclusions and inferences based on those insufficient pieces of information. The result is a distortion of the truth.


  217. “The Dalai Lama was indeed an absolute dictator; more so as regards his own country than Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini in theirs”.

    Portrait of a Dalai Lama (13th) by
    Sir Charles Bell


  218. “The Tibetan criminal code is drastic. In addition to fines and imprisonment, floggings are frequent, not only of people after they have been convicted of an offence, but also of accused persons, and indeed witnesses, during the course of the trial. For serious offences, use is made of the pillory as well as of the cangue, which latter is a heavy square wooden board round the neck. Iron fetters are fastened on the legs of murderers and inveterate burglars. For very serious or repeated offences, such as murder, violent robbery, repeated thefts, or serious forgery, the hand may be cut off at the wrist, the nose sliced off, or even the eyes gouged out, the last more likely for some heinous political crime. In former days those convicted of murder were put into a leather sack, which was sewn up and thrown into a river”.

    Portrait of a Dalai Lama
    Sir Charles Bell describing legal system under the 13th Dalai Lama

    Sir Charles Bell wrote a biography of the 13th Dalai Lama, and spent two and a half years caring for him as his physician in India when the 13th ‘escaped’ from plots against him for trying to institute some reforms, mostly military. Sir Charles Bell was pro-Tibet and was considered a good friend of the 13th Dalai, So his descriptions of life in Tibet under the 13th can be considered quite non-biased.


  219. The 13th Dalai lama wanted to enhance the military in Tibet. He sent a few ‘aristocrats’ to get a military training from the British colonialists, in India, that is why in the photographs in the 20’s , there is a Tibetan army that is very British in appearance and uniforms. Before this it was the monks that were also gun-carrying protection for the monasteries. The regents and the aristocracy were very threatened by this and the 13th had to flee the country for a period of time fearing assassination, the common answer to’ any thinking ‘outside the box’ of the Lamaism structure.

    IT is you that is leaving out ‘details’ Joanne, because you only read what reinforces your closed thinking pro-thinking , programmed Lamaism mind.

    Again, you are in trouble but you don’t know it. People who are very comfortable inside the cocoon of Lamaism, don’t post on here fantatically like you are doing , This is a very red flag, that you are white knuckle holding on to your belief system that is starting to ‘shatter” at a sub-concious level. Often this isn’t at a conscious level at first, you need help and you need to have that Plan B.


  220. Another method of deceit which I have seen used on this thread and on many of Chris’s sources is the method of leaving out strategic bits of information when describing historical events etc.

    For example, in the Trimondi’s description of the Dalai Lama’s “absolute power”, they jump from the fifth Dalai Lama to the 13th Dalai Lama, mentioning the hundreds of years in-between and inferring that those years are ones of absolute Dalai Lama power– whereas the truth of it is that only the 5th and 13th Dalai Lamas had any real power! So by leaving out those strategic chunks of historical fact, they leave the reader with an impression that is false.

    The same happened above with the quotes Chris provided on the lack of Western exposure or education in Tibet. Vivas began with some facts that were fairly reliable I think– which were that there was resistances within Tibetan monastic institutions to influences outside of Tibet. However, Vivas then leapt to a discussion of the Dalai Lama’s involvement in this and says, “Seen in this light, the Dalai Lama begins to seem like the head of a religion or philosophy that has been debased almost to the point of a sect, reigning over a million captive followers within closed borders, away from the eyes of the world.”

    Now, Vivas hasn’t said anything overtly wrong by using terms such as “begins to seem like” etc.– Vivas just forgot to mention that the 13th Dalai Lama was VERY interested in Western education and sent several young Tibetan boys to England for an English education so that they could return and help him set up Westernized educational institutions. Unfortunately, Dalai Lama 13 died before those reforms could be finalized and they were squashed by monastic authorities.

    And of course, you cannot fault Dalai Lama 14 when it comes to education. His reforms to education and dedication to it are well recorded. And he is the one who is outspoken regarding the Abhidharma’s description of cosmology, saying that if science and our own eyes can prove that the Abhidharma scriptures are wrong, (e.g. that Mt Meru doesn’t exist) then we have no choice but to rewrite the scripture. He stresses that Buddha himself has given us permission to do this.

    Do you see? By leaving out just a few key details, you can deceive people and stir up a frenzy. It’s an age old technique. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with truth. You cannot understand and interpret history properly without a full knowledge that takes all details into account.


  221. I predict that your world that you have spun around yourself will , in the not too distant future, completely break up for you, you are on the edge of this happening, and that is why you are so fanatically posting on here. I suggest that you have a Plan B in place, because you are going to be in a very fragile situation psychologically ,soon, no matter how many retreats you attend with Mr. Holy One. You would not be on this site madly posting incoherently and blindly otherwise. I would suggest that you write down on a piece of paper the names of ‘ex-cult therapists’ because you are going to need one very very soon. Look up therapists that are helpful , if your daughter loves you, she should be very very worried and not reinforcing your Lamaism.


  222. THEY CANT READ PALI AND SANSKRIT ( most of them couldn’t read Tibetan), documented by the statements at translators conferences by two “high” Tibetan Lama Rinpoches. They didn’t have to reveal this but they did, and now all the world knows that is paying attention, except you, no matter how many times it is told to you. You are a boring cult member, whose mind has been ‘pickled by Lamaism. you don’t read anything outside of the hagiographies of Lamas and their fables now, and THAT is what you present as ‘your proof.”

    If you weren’t such a wonderful example of exactly the narrow mind “pickled in Lamaism” and how dangerous it is, I wouldn’t bother you at all in your ‘cocoon’ you have spun more tightly now than ever , since your Sogyal episodes.

    Like the Dalai Lama and his use of the ‘words’ such as ‘compassion” you just use words , like “deceit’ and hope that by attaching that to me, it will prove that you yourself have not been deceived by the number one deceiver in the world. That is what you are afraid of and why you are so desperately ,and vitriolically on here again. Your cocoon must be breaking up for you, so you are spinning out madly. . You have learned that if you ‘repeat’ just words over and over that’s enough. You are a sad broken record of a tragedy of mind control.


  223. First, what you have written above has nothing whatsoever to do with our discussion about the Geshe degree, does it? Which you called “superstitious mumbo jumbo”–and nothing to do with your unfortunate habits of deceit.

    The Geshe degree curriculum comes from extensive and exhaustive study of the foundational Buddhist texts in Pali and Sanskrit– you call that “superstitious mumbo jumbo.”– Then when I question you on this, you simply rant about issues that have nothing to do with the Geshe degree.

    This is another method of deceit you use frequently– flood the thread with a stream of similar sounding rhetoric so that readers might believe you have addressed the question, when in fact you’ve avoided it completely.


  224. “.Seen in this light, the Dalai Lama begins to seem like the head of a religion or philosophy that has been debased almost to the point of a sect, reigning over a million captive followers within closed borders, away from the eyes of the world.” from Behind the Smile: The Hidden Face of the Dalai Lama Vivas. Sect in French means CULT, and what is a sect? Vivas continues.”In short, an extremist and uncompromising religious organization whose leaders deny their disciples every individual freedom, force them to perform rituals and mentally manipulate them to keep them under control”.. Vivas.

    Exactly what is going on ‘inside’ these ‘ecumenical and ‘secular’ sanghas of Tibetan Buddhism Lamaism in the west as well, where we were programmed to read nothing outside of our religious texts, to shun any information that contradicted the Lama party-line including any news that was contradictory to the ‘victimhood’ of the Lamas (as we have seen on this site as well) and to disparage western education, including all history and other secular studies, and concentrate only on the religious texts and treatise and commentary, and spend hours chanting and ’emptying our minds” in group settings, and on retreat. . ,This is why the Dalai Lama doesn’t want the ‘fringe ‘ to know about the real Tibetan Lamaism so he tells them to stick to their own religion.

    The fanatic devotees that come on here trying to censor people’s freedom of speech with vitriol and attacks demonstrate, while talking about ‘compassion and ‘right speech,” more vividly than I could, exactly the kind of education the Lamas have in mind for their disciples. One that narrows the mind, so that it cannot hear or take in any information that doesn’t reinforce the Lama system and the throne dwellers “sainthood”. Just like in Old Tibet.


  225. “Was it mind-destroying? Yes. Education, which is known to spread atheism and secularism, was withheld from the common people, while the Buddhist elite spent interminable years studying”.(astrology calligraphy, buddhist philosophy and religion, lineage texts.. many still believed the world is ‘flat’ and some still do, sic) .

    “The main product of this learning was an incomprehensible jargon that awed the serfs and persuaded them of their inferiority, grooming them for a life of humility and obedience. Mind-destroying, also, because Buddhist texts replaced all other knowledge, not only among the common people, but also for the vast majority of the country’s lords and masters, who were never taught science. Once again, when the British occupiers tried to open schools, the monks made their disapproval clear….It was mind-destroying in yet another way: the serfs could not travel, even to Lhasa, and never once in their lives met a foreigner with a different culture and different language. Finally, the poor wretches were so exhausted by their labor that they no longer had the time or strength to think for themselves” Behind the Smile Vivas.


  226. “At the level of individual, Drepung’s ten thousand monks were divided into two broad categories-those who studied a formal curriculum of Buddhist theology and philosophy and those who did not. The former, know as pechaw, were a small minority amounting to only about 10 percent of the total monk population. … The overwhelming majority of monks, the so called ‘common monks’ (tramang or tragyu) however did not pursue this arduous curriculum and were not involved in formal study. Many could not read much more than one or two prayer books, and some in fact were functionally illiterate, having memorized only a few basic prayers. ” from “Tibetan Buddhism and Mass Monasticism” by Melvyn C. Goldstein. Goldstein speaks Tibetan , has travelled extensively inside Tibet, and has written numerous books on the Feudal and monastic society of Tibet, The REAL Tibet and the Dalai Lama. He was of course accused of being a Chinese communist .


  227. And would a Christian call the bible “mumbo jumbo”?


  228. One particularly insidious way of deceiving others, Chris, that you use often, is making a harsh judgment about something you know nothing about. You pretend to know a lot, when in fact you know nothing– that’s deceit.

    An example of this is when you spoke about the Geshe degree in Tibetan Buddhism. You called it a “superstitious mumbo jumbo of medieval education….”

    So my question to you is: Do you have a copy of the curriculum the monks and now nuns study from? Have you studied any of them yourself? For example, I have been studying the Abhisamalamkara for months now and I have not gone far because it’s hard, Chris, it’s academically challenging. As are the texts by Nagarjuna that they study from. They also study logic and debate and many other subjects. It typically takes 12 years.

    Why do you slander things you know nothing about? Why do you try to deceive others in this way?


  229. Chris, if you value truth, why don’t you stick to it???


  230. Perhaps we should stick to the point– perhaps we can address your own deceit before we address those accusations? Something about your own hypocrisy, the pot calling the kettle black?


  231. there are more of course but I don’t want to inundate the thread with links. Check out American Buddha, and the book “Tantric Delusional Induced Syndrome”, you can get it on Amazon for 99 cents. Not a satire, but very funny and very ‘therapeutic’ for coming out of the cult of tantra of Lamaism..

    Also Brendan O’Neill for the Guardian: “Down with th Dalai Lama” many articles written by O’Neill on the Dalai Lama and his hypocrisy. and lying

    You have your work cut out for you to censor everyone that has called the Dalai Lama a liar and to do your part to censor all free speech. And you criticize China?


  232. More for you Joanne, on your quest to stop all negative comments and your censorship against free speech, a side effect of being in the cult of Lamaism. How about the

    “The Dalai Lama is a Liar” you tube video by Webster Tarpley: all about the CIA and the Dalai’s connections and his gaggle of aristocrats and his lying:


  233. Here’s a list of all the people that have called him a liar and a hypocrite past and present:

    “Friendly Feudalism” by M. Parenti U.S. Historian

    “Behind the Smile” Maxime Vivas French Journalist

    Wesley Tarpley, Phd “Tarpley is a critic of the Dalai Lama; in 2010 he told Russia Today that “pre-1959 Tibet … was probably the closest thing to hell on earth that you had … social reform was impossible.” In the interview he criticizes US funding of pro-Dalai Lama organizations, which he says amounts to US$2 million per year, saying “this is a bad deal for the American taxpayers.”

    Penn and Teller Videos on the Dalai Lama : features Michael Parenti on video

    Christopher Hitchens, late British journalist on the Dalai Lama:

    I guess you don’t know all the people that comment on articles about what a hypocrite and liar the Dalai Lama is, you apparently think , in your closed bubble’ that I am the only one doing so! I think that you will have your work cut out for you Joanne, Check out the commentary lately under Tibetan Buddhist articles of the scandals regarding sexual abuse, gang rapes by Tibetan buddhist monks, and regarding the murder of Akong to see how the general public now views the Dalai Lama. .


  234. You are a sad cult member whose ‘fix’ has warn off from your glory basking in the presence of His Holy One, last week, and now, predictably you are coming down from your bliss state, that usually lasts about 4 days, then the depression , anger and nastiness emerges. Its cyclic.

    Get yourself on medication, the meditation isn’t working.


  235. You see, Chris, you don’t just lie. You lie with an intention to harm another human being.


  236. Chris, have you read the Buddhist scriptures on Right Speech?


  237. And Chris, you said, “Anyone that would set themselves on fire for this hypocrite, the Dalai, who couldn’t care less, about these Tibetan people, that he watched like ‘ants’ from his telescope at the top of the Potala Palace…”

    Did you know that his very first action, when he took up his leadership of Tibet was to free all those prisoners whom he had watched as a child?

    Why do you twist the truth over and over????

    Chris, I would not speak of any being on earth, not the lowest rapist or murderer or worm in the way that you are speaking of the Dalai Lama and other Tibetans. How can you imagine that your point of view represents something altruistic and appealing? Something anyone would respect? Who would want to embrace it? You call people names, you lie, you distort the truth, you malign people and events that you know nothing about.

    If you have to lie and deceive and omit details in order to convince people of your point of view, perhaps there’s something wrong with your point of view!

    Don’t you see the hypocrisy? How can you hold yourself above the alleged actions of Sogyal when you don’t even hold to basic moral principles yourself? How can you speak of unkindness in others when your own actions are vicious and unkind?


  238. And fyi, Angie and Chris, did you know that there are others in China setting themselves on fire, self-immolating? These are ethnic Chinese protesting the intolerable conditions imposed on them by local and regional government officials. About 50 of them have joined their Tibetan brothers and sisters to say, Things in Communist China stink and I will use my body in protest.


  239. . Very smart, very brave, very wonderful of you, part of the deception now, part of the propaganda machine that will ensure that Sogyal’s abuse continues. Very ‘proud’ of yourself, we can see that.


  240. Chris, yes, a few lamas hurt me and I decided I wouldn’t be beaten by that hurt. I decided that lamas aren’t all good or bad, that life isn’t black and white, except for children. I did become more cautious and stubborn. I wasn’t going to let myself be defeated by those lamas– and I wasn’t going to be harmed again. I owed it to myself and my vows to insist on a good and decent path, so that’s what I chose. I decided that there were some lamas I could trust and some I couldn’t and then I continued on. It has been successful. Your picture of me is just a carton with no substance whatsoever.

    On the other hand, Chris, a few lamas hurt you and it appears that you decided that all lamas are bad. That the world has good guys and bad guys. Such black and white thinking is never very helpful in my way of thinking and I fear that in the end, you are the loser. Living with such vitriol as is in your posts can only be very toxic.


  241. Anyone that would set themselves on fire for this hypocrite, the Dalai, who couldn’t care less, about these Tibetan people, that he watched like ‘ants’ from his telescope at the top of the Potala Palace, and who is using their self-immolations for his own political currency against the Chinese, is beyond anyone’s understanding of ignorance the the cruelty that reinforces it for centuries. It is so profound, a thought control of a cult that has lasted over generations and centuries, so deep and complete , that is beyond comprehension. ,


  242. I am so glad that the Daiai is making all the statements that you have quoted here , it will be an historical document of his blatant “doublespeak” and his words and actions being in two different universes. The biggest hypocrite in the world is being documented by you. In your zeal to defend him you are condemning him for posterity and the record.


  243. Chris, you said, “He is saying that , Joanne , because his trolls report back to him what the ‘temperature’ of the west is now…”

    Could you find me quotes from the Dalai Lama where he contradicts himself– or any quotes in which you can see him changing tact to suit “the temperature of the west”?

    In fact, the first time he spoke about the dangers of “seeing everything the lama does as perfect” was 30 years ago! He is remarkably consistent on important Buddhist themes, as you would find if you ever investigated.

    The only time I see him change is when the evidence proves him wrong– such as over the Japanese sarin gas attacks. Do you know what he said about that? He said he was surprised because he really believed that Ashahara was a good, honest Buddhist. Then he said (and I think I have the quote right): “This just proves that I am not a living Buddha!”

    So that’s just a little peek at a real man, a human being whom I happen to respect (you know? That decent human emotion called “respect”?)– and he has no resemblance whatsoever to your cartoon images. And my respect for him has no resemblance whatsoever to your cartoon image of fawning ignorant devotees– and did I really hear you refer to the Tibetans who are self-immolating as “poor illiterate , ignorant monks and nuns????” How pathetically arrogant is that?!!!


  244. You really don’t get ‘load the language’ , and doublespeak of cults do you Joanne? You didn’t get out from under the ‘victimhood’ long enough to use your cricitical thinking skills again. OF COURSE HE SAYS THESE THINGS, that is to confuse with words, and create paralysis , while all the videos and pictures and honorary events for Sogyal R continue. He is also saying ‘speak out all you want” you can see it won’t do a bit of good”. What a scary nasty narcissist he is. But of course only you can see this when you are de-programmed, which I don’t have much hope for you.


  245. Chris, would you tell hunger strikers to stop?


  246. Joanne

    The Chinese government recognise undue influence and the spokesperson would give such a statement as he is speaking on behalf of Lama Tibet. How many Tibetans read the Guardian? I doubt, considering how it has escalated, that the message is getting through and contrary to the agenda to ‘free’ Tibet.


  247. He is saying that , Joanne , because his trolls report back to him what the ‘temperature’ of the west is now, and that many articles have come out, shall we say, “not complementary of Lamaism” , and particularly negative commentary is on blogs about him in the last year, The
    ‘controlled media’ in the west is not so protective of him anymore and he and his handlers are well aware of that. He is mostly doing damage control now by upping the propaganda and of course lying and presenting black as white, ( perfectly acceptable in the Tantric teachings he adheres to while blabbing about compassion) that is why he says he is a ‘feminist’ too, particularly after Sogyal of Lakar’s bumbling revelations about the ‘inner court’ of Lamaism..


  248. How sad that Joanne can’t see , in her own Guardian quote , that it wasn’t the Dalai Lama , her precious ‘compassionate’ Kundun that begged them to stop( even though “Stop!” from him would literally be like God saying stop to these poor illiterate , ignorant monks and nuns, and now we are on 122 or 123 and counting, because Dalai won’t say anything against it, anymore than the Dalai Lama is telling Sogyal to stop abusing women, because for the Dalai the important thing,, is the political currency of the self-immolations, it’s keeps the world imbalanced and prevent the west from seeing more quickly who these Lamas really are, always good to have an ‘enemy’ to blame and cover up for one’s own egregious regime. That’s why he tells them all it is a great ‘bodhisattva’ act, And his Eco Karmapa repeats that message, and that’s in English, we don’t know what he is saying in Tibetan! But whatever it is, these aggressive and horrible acts have increased. He did NOTHING to stop it . Just like he is doing nothing to stop the egregious spiritual and sexual abuses by Sogyal of Lakar , the Dalai is actually acting like he is still in Old Tibet, because for him, he never left ,and only thinks of returning, so much easier to be a despot there, Here he has to wear so many masks, in Tibet only one. .


  249. So Chris, are you saying that the Dalai Lama doesn’t mean it when he advises us to be openly critical of misbehavior in lamas? When he says that “seeing everything the lama does as perfect” is a dangerous instruction?

    Is he lying or tricking or just saying what he means and you’re wrong? Why do you refuse to address evidence?


  250. Also, Angie, fyi, no foreign media are allowed within the parts of China where the self-immolations are occurring. So there are only two sources for information on these events: either the Chinese Communists (propaganda machine) or Tibetans in exile, who are in contact with their relatives and friends within Tibet. So you simply cannot speak of “evidence” in regard to these events. And I would only ask: if the Chinese have nothing to hide, why don’t they allow foreign media in?


  251. Nothing one says to Joanne, Angie , will have the slightest effect, her rage , that she cannot cover over spills out here, over and over, and she has not the slightest awareness of what she is doing, anymore than the Lamas do, they are also delusional since being little boys, of all the suffering they have caused throughout the centuries, and continue to cause in the world with their warped, misogyny and sexually abusive cult of Lamaism pretending to be Buddhism.

    . This is a self-sealed world of narcissistic dysfunctional men who count on people like Joanne, who even when glimpsing the truth by the gross displays and egregious distaining of all human decency by his behavior, is still , “one of them” the avatars that can ‘do no wrong’ or be perceived as ‘doing any wrong” All right to toss a few western lamas under the bus, or a Lama that criticizes the Dalai, but never one of their own in the Dalai cartel. So they are all because of the Dalai and their loyalty to him now, are making a liar of Joanne, as she accuses me of lying. How ironic but of course Joanne can’t see this and never will probably.

    These Lamas, as DI has documented exhaustively here, in statements, pictures, videos, have engaged in a massive two year plus campaign for Sogyal R very specifically, , and that includes every single one them , with no exceptions, that are under the Dalai Lama’s spell and hegemony now (they weren’t always under his spell and openly distrusted him, the old Kagyu and Nyingma Lamas, but they are dead now ) The new young Turk lamas, into money and only money, but knowing how to cast a spell over the naive, have joined the Dalai cartel . They have made a great mistake and as their hubris shows itself to the world along with their abuses being revealed, they have made a grave mistake. . But they will be , of course, the last to know they are so mired in ignorance and hubris.

    So because the word from the Dalai is to protect Sogyal of Lakar at ALL COSTS and in whatever way possible, lest their “misogynistic cult of cards” falls, they protect, honor and tell the world that Sogyal was not only “NOT an abuser” but a ‘high lama” that deserves everyone’s respect and honor, and since the separate mafia families of Lamas have now formed a cartel under the Dalai Lama, and since one of Sogyal’s greatest whistle blowers , like Joanne, had to be shut up, they have managed to dupe and recondition her.What a coup for them. Joanne is in the lineage of the abused ‘dakinis” who become the lamas greatest supporters. Too weak to stick to their guns, to cowardly to really face the heat and aggression of the ‘true believers’ they instead become one of them and betray their sisters.

    It’s a common defense in all abusive situations called ‘identifying with the aggressor” for the weaker members to do this , to cope with the pain. It happens in prison situations, family abusive situations and particularly in cults, That is how the cult is able to function, because of the weaker members who will “identify with the aggressors” and cling to them, instead of recognizing where the aggression and abuse is really coming from, They become the abusers themselves, as Joanne is doing on DI.

    That’s what the lamas count on.


  252. Angie, I notice that you provide a link for your “evidence”– could it be that you don’t want to reveal that it comes straight form the Chinese Communist propaganda machine?


    Here is a quote from a Guardian Newspaper article written IN 2012:

    “The self-proclaimed Tibetan government in exile has called on Tibetans to stop setting fire to themselves to protest against what activists say is Beijing’s heavy-handed rule in the region.

    “We understand what is driving them to do it but we appeal to Tibetans not to go for these extreme acts,” a spokesman told the Guardian.

    The call comes after a Tibetan farmer set himself ablaze in front of a market in remote north-west China on Tuesday. It was the second such death in 48 hours. Both protests occurred close to the Labrang monastery in Gansu province, the site of numerous protests after deadly ethnic riots in 2008.

    The two deaths bring the total self-immolations to 58 since March 2011 with eight in the past month, campaigners say. Many of those setting themselves alight have called for the return of the Tibetans’ spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, as they have died. The Chinese government has confirmed some, but not all, of the self-immolations. “There is no basic freedom in Tibet. That is why people commit these extreme actions. We are very, very concerned but they are the ones inside Tibet suffering. They are the ones to decide,” the spokesman for the Tibetan government in exile said.”


  253. Joanne

    Would you agree that it is very self-serving of Lamaism to encourage Tibetans to commit suicide to influence world opinion?

    “In 2012, many Chinese were swept up by the cultish prophecy of apocalypse. Seeing that many folks in his hometown were hardcore doomsday believers and had even set up tents as well as stocking food and supplies in preparation, Dorje Wangshok suggested during the leadership meeting of the Dalai group that

    “We should take the opportunity presented by the doomsday prophecy to tell Tibetans that only the ones who fight against tyrannical rule as self-immolation heroes, sacrificing their bodies for freedom and giving their blessing to the highest living tulku the Dalai Lama, can temporarily avert the arrival of doomsday.” He also sealed his plan with foolproof verification: “If the prophesized doomsday of 21 December, 2012 was indeed delayed, that would verify the contribution of the self-immolation heroes.”

    “September, 2012, the government-in-exile of the Dalai group accepted the suggestion of the “Tibetan Youth Congress” and openly declared in the meeting’s resolution that “self-immolation is the highest form of non-violent struggle” to encourage ethnic Tibetans in China to burn themselves. The “achievement” of this so-called “creative non-violent struggle” was the tragic end of 70 precious Tibetans lives engulfed in blazing flames.”

    With the above evidence how can you not believe that the Dalai Lama is in agreement with Tibetans committing voluntary? suicide to influence world opinion? Sadly, those who have ended their lives for their Lama did not achieve the desired result.


  254. I agree Chris. It’s the “energy” that feeds the illusion and the Tibetan Buddhist renewed interest in interpreting Buddha teachings that will possibly be fully available to the interested public “within the next twenty-five years” tells us how disinterested and distant they have become due to self-interested proselyting of Lama cultic teachings. Is this a face saving exercise? This work would be best carried out by an independent scientific group to alleviate the possibility of misinterpretation.


  255. Chris, you said to me,

    “Your conscious mind that has been programmed to believe in the ALL GOOD , ALL PERFECTION, of these Lamas and their cult beliefs, isn’t that what they taught us over and over and over and over, they are perfect right? They can do no wrong” Right? And any wrong perceived is our own ‘impure perception” Right? And if you just believe this , you too, will be perfect in three , seven or many lifetimes devoted to them.”

    Would you like to know what HH Dalai Lama has to say about that? Here is an example of his point of view, one which he states quite frequently and which confers with my own opinion:

    “If one presents the teachings clearly, others benefit. But if someone is supposed to propagate the Dharma and their behavior is harmful, it is our responsibility to criticize this with a good motivation. This is constructive criticism, and you do not need to feel uncomfortable doing it. In “The Twenty Verses on the Bodhisattvas’ Vows,” it says that there is no fault in whatever action you engage in with pure motivation. Buddhist teachers who abuse sex, power, money, alcohol, or drugs, and who, when faced with legitimate complaints from their own students, do not correct their behavior, should be criticized openly and by name. This may embarrass them and cause them to regret and stop their abusive behavior. Exposing the negative allows space for the positive side to increase. When publicizing such misconduct, it should be made clear that such teachers have disregarded the Buddha’s advice. However, when making public the ethical misconduct of a Buddhist teacher, it is only fair to mention their good qualities as well.”

    You see, Chris, I can back up my point of view with evidence, something you NEVER DO.

    And by the way, I have never stated that any lama is perfect. Never. I respect some people and disrespect others and I can give reasons for my attitudes. That’s my point of view. And I have faith in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. You put many words in my mouth, but I don’t believe I have ever fully stated my point of view.

    And if you truly read what I have written in regard to Sogyal, it was all done with a view towards maintaining a balanced view– stopping the hysteria which I feared was growing. My own experiences were traumatic, but my writing about how Rigpa students might assess the situation was based on evidence, reason and careful consideration. I also gave full credence to the pain Rigpa students might be feeling– and I believe I tried to allow for the possibility that the allegations weren’t true (though Kate would probably deny that I did that!).

    On the other hand, you behave as if all the allegations have been tried and proven and every statement condemning every lama is true, just based on the fact that it has been spoken– or worse, written on the internet! I refuse to do that, Chris, I refuse to return to the Middle Ages. They say the Mongols (in the 14th century I think it was) gave people the death sentence just for being accused of something by someone. Your attitude sounds a little like that to my ears.


  256. Just an fyi, Chris, “The truth will set you free” is biblical– it doesn’t come from Buddhist scriptures.

    Your use of quotation marks and the wording of your comment would have us believe it comes from the Buddha himself.


  257. Chris, you say, “Because Joanne, what you have forgotten , and the Lamas made us forget, is the Dharma is about the truth. That is what is is all about. That is it’s essence, “The truth will set you free.” Instead you chose to lock up the prison doors and throw away the key.”

    Yes, Chris, this discussion is all about truth. I agree.

    You have lied. You have spread inaccuracies and vicious gossip. You have misled readers. You have fabricated stories about Tibetan history and culture and religion, about which you know virtually nothing. In your last post, there was not one shred of substantial backing to any statement you made. You slander people and events without a shred of evidence or backing from truth.

    How can you speak of truth when you spread lies and inaccuracies and gossip and baseless slander?


  258. Interesting discussion in the commentary on the “Economist’s article on Akong Rinpoche’s recent murder, by 3 Tibetans , the commonality of violence in the Tibetan communities, and shows that the commentators, unlike the ‘journalists” do their homework better these days, on the realities within Shangri-Lai and twisted politics in the mercurial world of Tibetan Lamas .

    The commentaries are more informative on the real goings on in Tibetan politics than the journalists provide us with these days.

    Sorry Lamas, and Lama apologists, you can’t fool all of the people all of the time anymore.


  259. Chris Clearly stated off to Chicago now so will leave Joanne in your capable hands till later.


  260. Sorry you again have missed my point I am not Chris and you have not responded to one comment of mine. Leave Chris out of this. By the way she has responded you just are not reading you are emoting TB mind control.o


  261. Dear Joanne

    You are clearly desperate to stay with your “throne dwellers” in this cult of Lamaism, you have made that crystal clear. What you don’t know is that you were almost able to see through Lamaism as a cult with the Sogyal experience. You wrote articulately about it, and you tried to help others, because you were so determined to expose his lies , his deception and his continuation of abuse that you were brave enough to write about your experience and warn people.

    That is exactly what I am doing on DI.

    The difference between us, is that I came ‘all the way out” and you came only partially out, and then did an ‘about face’ and went deeper in, so deep that you sealed your rage and anger over, compartmentalizing it, saving it up for your posts here. That way you can displace your anger and violence toward another here, and then go back to your retreats with the ‘holier than thou” “throne dwellers” and imagine that you are especially compassionate and in a group with especially compassionate others . I know the energy well, I was surrounded for years with these type of schizoid ‘compassionate’ people, like yourself.

    You demonstrate exactly why I see these Lamas as so evil, because they destroy real compassion and replace it with a mere facade that can spill over into rage and viciousness, just like it does when the Dalai Lama attacks the Chinese people and China. Same type of compartmentalizing of anger and rage covered with a ‘veneer’ of ‘loving kindness rhetoric’ , you are learning it from the masters. Whatever real compassion you had is buried now under a pile of words and concepts that are reinforced everytime you go to one of your Lama events. And clearly you have been doing this for a very long time.

    My motivation is, to help others, and prevent them from becoming tools of these lamas, and their 1000 year old cult

    Your conscious mind that has been programmed to believe in the ALL GOOD , ALL PERFECTION, of these Lamas and their cult beliefs, isn’t that what they taught us over and over and over and over, they are perfect right? They can do no wrong” Right? And any wrong perceived is our own ‘impure perception” Right? And if you just believe this , you too, will be perfect in three , seven or many lifetimes devoted to them. You know that is the drill, even though you are pretending on here that it is all about Science now and Secular Ethics.

    So of course , since you are back in the fold, and this is being reinforced over and over and over again, you are now convincing yourself, that if you just try really hard to only see the good in them always, you will be saved. But it isn’t working is it?. Read over your posts and how much anger and rage spills over in them.

    Unlike you, I am in touch with my feelings including anger at them, but you can’t allow that , Lamaism doesn’t allow even a negative thought about the Lamas, let along anger, so it creates a very disturbed emotional situation for its adherents, like yourself, who don’t even know when they are still in a rage, even though everyone else can see it clearly just by reading your posts and attacks on me, while patting yourself on the back about how ‘good you are’ ‘how filled with loving kindness’ you are. ..

    You were traumatized clearly by the Sogyal situation, that caused this ALL GOOD ALL PERFECT programming to be shattered, very deeply, but instead of going all the way through the pain and disappointment, you sealed off the insights and opportunity to break completely away and see the situation for what it was, i.e. that the whole edifice of Lamaism and its thought control could create a Soygal of Lakar, and is actually making sure that he continue his sexual abuse of others, because deep down, you know this is true, and you can’t face it. So you literally can’t take in the factthat every one of these Lamas , to a one, ALL OF THEM, including and particularly your Dalai Lama. How can you face this , right? Since your choice was to put all your eggs in his basket now. Oh my God, what would you do , if you really saw this truth? Too scary, right? You don’t know that this would be the thing that would actually set you free, seeing the truth that is all around you. Because Joanne, what you have forgotten , and the Lamas made us forget, is the Dharma is about the truth. That is what is is all about. That is it’s essence, “The truth will set you free.” Instead you chose to lock up the prison doors and throw away the key.

    Perhaps it is your own burying again of your courage, that you are in a rage about and that instead of helping people break free from the Sogyals in Lamaism, you decided , for your own comfort, to enable him now by refusing to see the reality of the Lama edifice of misogyny and abuse of a thousand years that created him.

    That is some heavy denial Joanne, to come half way out like you did, and then seal it off, and now come on here ‘proselytizing’ and on the ‘attack’, protecting the very situation that creates a Sogyal.

    You demonstrate exactly why all cults of “thought control” who make true believers of their members are so dangerous, its the total lack of insight into these dynamics that make cults and their cult members so dangerous, it’s what causes “machete wielding” monks in Burma, or Tibetans setting themselves on fire for their “Kundun” Rage turned outward and inward. That’s what cults create.


  262. I am not the one who lies and fabricates in order to malign others. Chris is unable to back up her point of view with any evidence and so, she uses deceit, inaccurate “documentation” and emotional, hostile language to stir up hatred, blinding herself and a few poor readers to any hope at a balanced view. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Sogyal’s misbehavior nor with cults, which are brought into the discussion simply to fire up emotions and divert. This has nothing to do with truth or decency. That is my objection.


  263. It is clearly simple you divert and when people disagree with you you play violins and look for the sympathy vote. Can you not see you are besotted religionist who has forgotten your actions to expose Sogyal


  264. You have not answered one comment I made because you have a visceral hatred of Chris as she has blown the whistle on Lamaism=TB.
    You do not address anything, copy and paste other peoples replies and then take flight.


  265. And yes, DI, I am fired up. I have just finished a nice visit with my eldest daughter, who is finishing her doctorate in world health– she is fired up by the fact that in our sorry, vicious world, some lives are seen as more important than others. Cultural arrogance and intolerance is a terrible habit we all have in this world. So anytime I see it in action, I object. It is my duty to do so.

    The Tibetan people are facing their darkest hour. Listening to Chris viciously kick them while they are down– listening to her speak of a culture she knows nothing about simply to maliciously harm others compels me to speak out and object. It is wrong, it is wrong. Kate is right when she says that all Chris has learned in her 25 years of Buddhist study are wrong views.

    If Chris can’t demonstrate the basics of decency, tolerance and loving kindness, then there is no message of the Buddha alive in her heart. It is that simple.


  266. In brief, Chris is a fraud and the whistle needs to be blown and blown.


  267. No, DI, Chris is maliciously maligning others with lies and fabrications. It is simply not right and so I object. She knows nothing about Buddhism nor the history nor culture of the people she is maligning– when her ignorance is exposed, she simply diverts and continues with her lies and fabrications.


  268. Here’s my summation of the situation,

    Joanne. You have come to t this blog again like blood hound to stalk Chris and as a result she has been going after you with venom.
    I observed all day and made replies to your points but you did not reply, but had a single mission to take Chris out using all the skills of emotion, avoidance and repeating you are not answering my points. When she did you just ignored her points and marched on, suffering from amnesia.
    I will be gone tomorrow and will fly over you during the day so look out for Aer Lingus. They now have the internet on board but you have to pay, so wait till I land in Yes we can……


  269. Note your focus on being in your head,

    wrong views

    It is not about ideas but undue influence. address that point KateS or go back to College


  270. Here’s my summation of the situation, Chris. Your writing continues as pure vitriol, maligning innocent people. You lie without any remorse or efforts to become more truthful. You malign the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, but demonstrate little or no understanding of Buddhism yourself, despite you claim of years of study. You make wild accusations of others without any facts to support you. You ignore any information or facts which do not fit your view of the world. You fly from one outrageous claim to the next, with little coherence or logic connecting your thoughts.

    Are you trying to dumb us down? Trying to make us hold our ears and run away, wailing?


  271. It seems you spent 25 years practising wrong views Chris.

    No wonder you’re annoyed, I would be.


  272. Yes, there are protestors with opinions. Yes, there are people who believe that religion and science should be kept separate. In fact, there is a significant group even within the Tibetan Buddhist community who question the value of this work. It’s a discussion, sometimes a noisy one.

    However, that is not evidence proving Chris’s allegations about the Mind and Life Institute. She still fails to demonstrate this because she has never watched a Mind and Life conference nor read a Mind and Life book.


  273. A few random articles
    1033 Signatures!

    But the invitation has sparked a noisy row within the neuroscience community. To protest the talk, some scientists set up an online petition, which was immediately hacked by the pro-Dalai Lama faction. Others are boycotting the event or withholding their conference papers. Still others have demanded – unsuccessfully – time for a rebuttal.


  274. First, Chris, the petition was not “signed by over a thousand scientists”– according to the Washington Post, “nearly 800” had signed it.

    The Washington Post also reported that “except for minor protests yesterday — one woman held a sign that read “Dalai Lama not qualified to speak here” — that conflict was barely visible at the conference. Some attendees stayed away from his talk, and others left early in what a few described as a protest of sorts.

    For most of the 14,000 conference participants who watched in the lecture hall or from overflow rooms, the Dalai Lama’s enthusiastic embrace of science and promotion of meditation were warmly received.”

    So your “evidence” that the Mind and Life is part of a lamaist cult is simply some opinions voiced by a very small minority– 800 out of 14,000 involved.

    The fact is, the discussion about the merits or demerits of merging science and contemplative cultures is a good vibrant discussion to have– but not one that can be reduced to such narrow theories as yours.


  275. But of course, since billionaire, Wall Street George Soros had more influence than the thousand real scientists who protested this ridiculous nonsense posing as science out of the Mind Life Instititute, and George Soros and his so callied liberal media, the right of center reactionaries now in the U.S., and who see a use for dumbing down all of our higher educational institutions and letting this primitive bunch of cult Lamas into our educational system, this talk ‘went ahead” anyway.

    They weren’t going to let a bunch of scientists stop it when a multi-billionaire and a corporate media has been thought controlling the population into stupidity for decades now, and since George Soros and his Wall Street pals who see the benefit in an even more dumbed down U.S. population and a weaking of the U.S. higher educational system to pave the way for Globalization.

    After all the Dalai Lama is an honorary member of the Budapest Club that arm of the Club of Rome, where the Rothchilds and the Rockefellers determine the real social engineering occuring in the west now.


  276. Joanne is like someone wanting to discuss minutia of details, when there is an ‘elephant’ in the room revealing who these lamas really are and their history. O.K. Joanne, read this again, not that it will have the slightest impact on you, I was summarizing what was in the petition, here is the petition in full , signed by over a thousand scientists:

    We are concerned that SfN has invited the Dalai Lama to give a talk at the 2005 annual meeting in Washington D.C..

    With more than 36,000 members, SfN is a highly respected organization for neuroscientists from all over the world. Its annual meetings are major events not only for neuroscientists, but also for public understanding of high quality research in neuroscience. It will be unwise if the reputation of SfN, built on the work of many neuroscientists over the past 30 years, is to be tainted by questionable decisions.

    The presentation of a religious symbol with a controversial political agenda may cause unnecessary controversies, unwanted press, and significant divisions among SfN members from multiple geographic locations, and with conflicting religious beliefs and political leanings. Article II of SfN Bylaw states: the purposes of the Society are scientific, educational, literary, charitable, and NO OTHER (emphasis added). The invitation extended to a religious leader may have violated SfN bylaws. It has certainly deviated from the central mission of the SfN.

    Inviting the Dalai Lama to lecture on Neuroscience of Meditation is of poor scientific taste because it will highlight a subject with largely unsubstantiated claims and compromised scientific rigor and objectivity at a prestigious meeting attended by more than 20,000 neuroscientists. The 2004 PNAS paper dealing with this particular subject by the laboratory of Richard Davidson at Wisconsin has serious flaws, and was done and funded by believers and supporters. The restriction placed on the Question-and-Answer period precludes free questioning. The SfN will signal to the neuroscience community that a different standard will apply when the topic is favorable to a religion or its leader.

    It is ironic for neuroscientists to provide a forum for and, with it, implicit endorsement of a religious leader whose legitimacy relies on reincarnation, a doctrine against the very foundation of neuroscience. The present Dalai Lama explicitly claims the separation of mind and body, which is essential to the recognition of the Dalai Lama as both a religious and a political leader.

    It would serve the interests of SfN as well as the public to cancel the talk.

    SUPPLEMENT I. Major Problems posed by the presentation of the Dalai Lama at the annual SfN meeting.

    1) SfN membership is not limited to any single country. Members have joined SfN for neuroscience, not for politics or religion. It is obvious that the Dalai Lama is more a symbol for a particular religion with debatable religious doctrines and claims, rather than a symbol for neuroscience or science.

    2) The controversy was initiated by the SfN selection, not by scientists who had to react when the sensitivity of its membership has not been considered during the selection of a controversial symbol. It appears that SfNs choice of the Dalai Lama shows a preference of publicity over substance, celebrity over quality.

    3) The SfN has announced that in the question-and-answer period, questions from the audience will be written on cards and passed to selected SfN leaders posted in each aisle. This restriction of free discussion seems to show that SfN is offering an uncritical forum for the speaker or the controversial scientific basis (or lack of it) of the talk.

    4) If the talk by the Dalai Lama is to be considered educational, literary, or charitable, such stretching of definitions will set precedence to other loosely defined topics. It could be a slippery road if neuroscientists begin to blur the border between science and religious practices.

    5) If a lecture on the Neuroscience of Meditation has to be delivered at SfN, it is arguable who is more qualified: the Dalai Lama, or Hindu and Muslim leaders who can claim longer history of meditation. Choosing the Dalai Lama is arbitrary and may have shown favoritism towards one brand of meditation associated with a specific religion.

    6) In the SfN announcement of the Featured Lectures regarding the talk by the Dalai Lama, it is stated that meditation, a practice of mental discipline that Western neuroscience has shown to change neural states in circuits that may be important for compassionate behavior and attentional and emotional regulation. This is a misleading statement. This claim was made by believers of meditation and Buddhism and the experiments were performed by a team led by Richard Davidson, a long time believer. This study published in PNAS was flawed, ranging from experimental design to conclusions. It is too premature for SfN to support the statement on the basis of such experiments by believers.

    7) Public records show that the Dalai Lama came out of previous meetings with Western scientists claiming that he has learned nothing from the West that challenges Tibetan Buddhist doctrines, including reincarnation. He was quoted in Scientific American stating that scientists are so far quite neutral with regard to reincarnation. One wonders whether meetings between the Dalai Lama and neuroscientists are helpful or detrimental to public understanding of science. While the benefits for science is debatable, it seems that associations with scientists have been more useful for the Dalai Lama and his supporters for purposes unrelated to science such as buttressing religious practices and doctrines. By publicly endorsing the Dalai Lama with what can be construed as apparent scientific legitimacy, SfN is providing potential ammunition for him or his followers to promote his own agenda.

    8) If SfN wants to provide diverse perspectives, it is unclear that the Dalai Lama should be a high priority. It would be easier for SfN to select a topic with more objective research but less entanglement with religion or politics. For example, acupuncture is not a topic initiated by traditional or Western scientists. For example, there has been a much larger amount of research done on acupuncture by researchers who are not religious believers and receive no funding from religious organizations. By comparison, research related to the Dalai Lama’s kind of meditation is limited in scope and depth, and also suffers from close association with practicing believers who are often not only the advocates, but also the researchers and sometimes financial sponsors of such research.

    In summary, the key issue is not the right of anyone to speak, but the forum that is appropriate for specific speakers and speeches. A presentation by the Dalai Lama at SfN raises important issues which can not be resolved unless the talk is cancelled. ”

    I didn’t say these things, the scientists who wrote the petition and the scientist who endorsed it did. Not that it will matter one iota to you, but for others who might believe your constant berating and distortions of what I put up documented here is the documentation again.


  277. Chris you said that something, I’m not sure what,

    “reveals that the research is backed, supported , and financed by the cult members of Lamaism…”

    Can you explain what you meant by that paragraph? What exactly reveals that the research is backed, supported and financed by cult members of Lamaism?

    You also said, “and I found that scientists also were very concerned about mixing ‘religion” into science in the west,” Which scientists were these?

    And what does the CIA have to do with your lies about the Dalai Lama never signing into law any reforms?

    And why can you produce no evidence for anything you say? All of it just rolls off the top of your head on and on with absolutely no backing, no dharma sources, no historical sources, no accurate sourcing, no logical links.


  278. Here’s a note of positive impact however, the younger generation, i.e. 20’s to 30’s are NOT attracted to the ‘throne dwellers” except the ding battiest ones, that like to be fashionably Tibetan Lamaist, and collect malas, along with their other New Age paraphernalia, and most of them are still anti-Wall street. When the connections of the Tibetan throne dwellers with Wall Street is becoming mre and more clear and their real history of sexual abuse in the moasteries and of women in general and financial exploitation of their own people is read by more and more people, they will not be able to attract the “useful idiots” of the baby boomer, and Generation X Corporate Life Coach generations,in the west anymore. That is why they are using all the monies collected here to build monasteries in Taiwan, Indonesia and of course in China, yes CHINA, which they have been doing, hedging their bets, since 1979. Their currency in this direction of attracting western students is already waning, unless you count the Neo Nazis in Europe, who have always been attracted to Tibetan Lamas. This is a very disturbing and growing movement, as these NeoNazis actually study Himmler’s fascination with the occult and with Tibetan Lamaism.

    So these factoids, is why their true believers left are very ‘long in the tooth.” now and will soon be dead. That is why their latest gimmick is to have ‘Tibetan Lama rappers, on the scene, so called bad boy ‘tulkus’ that appear western but are still put out to shill for the Lama Machine.

    . Even in the Tibetan Government in Exile, more and more young Tibetans are not interested in Lamas and Lamaism, and so they have to get their monk slaves and serfs to keep the Lama machine cranking and moving for all those aristocratic Lama Rinpoches, used to being waited on ‘hand and foot’ and that never lift a finger , now from the lowest Indians in the caste system there. The Tibetan monks, stay until they are eighteen and then leave, since they are no longer chased down, like in Tibet and brought back and because they find nothing of interest for them, being more attracted to the west they don’t stay. Whatever the hype you will notice that it is only two Bobsey twins, propagandizing for the Lamas. and the comments on articles in major newspapers, are now anti Lama, whereas only a few years ago they were all pro-Dalai Lama and Tibetan Lama and anyone suggesting anything negative were shouted down. Joanne and Kate are a dying breed.


  279. Yes published in 1962 when the Dalai Lama was on the CIA payroll and was involved with his brother in rebel forces being trained in the U.S. and being ‘dropped’ into Tibet to continue to fight YES JOANNE the Dalai Lama supported VIOLENCE and took U.S. money to have Tibetan Kham fighters, (aristocrats as that term existed in Tibet) but not the ordinary people in Tibet, who DID not support the counterinsurgency, and it is why the Dalai Lama LOST and that is why we are still in this mess with these primitive Lamas and their rich functionaries blabbing over here and fooling people like Joanne about how ‘nonviolent ‘ they are , and ‘peaceful they are”. and of course NON political. The U.S.’s propensity to always back the worst dictators and tyrants is alive and well in supporting the Dalai Lama and his Cronies, STILL. But now they have another use, as one can see by the complete programming and thought control they are able to induce upon groups of people to accept now an internal conflict in our own country and other western countries, and economic battle between the grossly rich and the rest of us. As one can see, the Dalai Lama and his ilk, still have their disgusting uses.


  280. Correction, that was a petition TO the President of Neuroscience, NfS, not by her . Nevetheless, the petition, signed by many scientists, ( over a 1,000) but ignored because of geopolitical events and because some of the scientists on the petition were Chinese U.S. citizens, (our usual U.S. racism and anti-Chinese stance, in no small part , thanks to the Dalai Lama, Mr. Harmony, and his bashing the Chinese,so they must be spies of the Chinese as I was accused of when I first started posting) reveals that the research is backed, supported , and financed by the cult members of Lamaism, ( which I addressed before on DI) and I found that scientists also were very concerned about mixing ‘religion” into science in the west, but of course the Lama lovers will tell us that the DL is really ‘secular’ now and NEVER talks about religion, when his very presence and appearance is an powerful propaganda AD for Tibetan Lamaism, and converting westerners into the cult of Lamaism, or at least ignoring its dangers, (and we can see what it does in a matter of years to the true believers who come on here,quoting their “throne dwellers” as good debating and rational discourse.

    Joanne is in a blind rage tizzy now since I have ‘dissed” her favorite throne dweller, so for others, that wish to know what is behind the Dalai’s smile,and agenda, please do your own research, about this cult, the Mega Cult hiding in plain siteTibetan Lamaism, the darling cult of the Wall Street austerity brokers in the west and the New Age United Religious Initiative , religious arm of Globalization..


  281. Chris you said,

    “Although the 14th Dalai Lama had no time during his brief reign to pick up a pen and sign a decree abolishing fatal injustices, covee labor and slavery, practices that most, (if not all ) other religions had lived through and then discarded in other countries, it was still plenty long for him to expand his home during those ‘happier days.” quoted from “Behind the Smile”.

    This is not true. In that same autobiography of His Holiness that you quote from above (and probably never read through), which was published in 1962, before the civil rights act was passed in this country, His Holiness speaks extensively about the problems of injustice in his country. He describes the reforms he was able to SIGN INTO LAW before leaving Tibet and the ones he intended to address but was unable to before leaving.

    When are you going to stop spreading lies????

    Chris, when I quoted extensively from this autobiography in a previous thread, demonstrating how HH Dalai Lama 14 did address injustice in his country, did sign reforms into law, you responded by saying that one couldn’t believe anything that was translated from Tibetan. That was that. Now you want to quote from that same text when it suits you!


  282. On a very advanced level of highest tantric practice, the joining of the male and female organs is a technique used to manifest the subtlest mind and gain the deepest wisdom of reality. This is using the physical body as a mechanical device for furthering insight, but there is no desire, emission, or orgasm.

    We note you have ignored the clear testimony of Lerab Ling!

    Words without actions are cheap. It is what he does which counts and that documentary says it all. Also you keep saying there is sex abuse in all religions that is not in dispute, what is in dispute is the notion that there are sexual practices at the very peak of TB=Lamaism imported from Hinduism. This is Lamaism and has nothing to do with Buddhism, but it leads directly into Sogyal’s arms and legs


  283. Joanne, you slow down, and READ the petition,I linked above, or can you read anymore you have been hanging around with all the “illiterati ” in the Tibetan diaspora of Lamas , these days, most can’t speak English or any other western language, after 50 years in the West, let along read it, so READ IT AGAIN, the petition above from the President of the Neurosciences: which I quoted: But of course you are in such a blind rage over your Dalai being “dissed”, banging out mindless posts about this and that quote from your precious Dalai, you didn’t notice that:

    ,,”,research related to the Dalai Lama’s kind of meditation is limited in scope and depth, and also suffers from close association with practicing believers who are often not only the advocates, but also the researchers and sometimes financial sponsors of such research. ”


  284. And yes , of course you believe that the Dalai Lama and all the other Lamas NEVER profit from their teachings, they are just humble monks with begging bowls.

    “Meanwhile the Potala Palace in Lhasa is ‘said to be one of the largest buildings in the world. Even after living in it for years one could never know all its secrets. It entirely covered the top of a hill, it is a City itself , it is 13 stories high, and one can revel in the ‘mausoleums of seven Dalai Lamas, some 30 feet high and covred in solid gold and prescious stones”… “Here were strong rooms filled with the golden regalia of the earlier kings of Tibet, dating fack for a thousand years, and the sumptuous gifts they received from the Chinese or Mogol empires and the treasures of the Dalai Lamas who succeeded the kings” … “Down below the building there were endless underground storehouses and cellars, containing government stocks of butter tea, and cloth which were supplied to the monasteries the army, and the government.: (Dalai Lama, MY Land My People) .

    “Under the 13th Dalai Lama , European luxury products, fashionable clothing and imported perfumes began to arrive, facing little resistance but destined only for the rich. Although the 14th Dalai Lama had no time during his brief reign to pick up a pen and sign a decree abolishing fatal injustices, covee labor and slavery, practices that most, (if not all ) other religions had lived through and then discarded in other countries, it was still plenty long for him to expand his home during those ‘happier days.” quoted from “Behind the Smile”.

    Norbulingka was the summer place of the Dalai Lamas, and they have ‘added their own residences to it ever since. I built one there myself.” (DL My Land My People.

    All around, the people who fed that lifestyle were dying young of fatigue, malnutrition, cold, disease and mistreatment while Leaders and the rich drink heartily, but to the poor he says, ‘friend, come and fast with me!”

    THAT is your Dalai Lama that you still believe is a compassionate and humble monk that of course doesn’t profit an iota from any of the monies he’s hoarded now from the tax payers in this country, and from all the faithfools and their donations, goverment grants, in the west, and the millions given by the rich wall street benefactors i that support the Dalai Lama, doing his part in creating an ‘austerity program’ for the rest of us, now in the west.


  285. By the way, I think the shouting you are hearing might be coming from inside of you.


  286. So, Chris, do you have evidence that the Tibetan translations of the Sanskrit texts are inaccurate? I have never heard anything but respect for those translations, which took many many years of hardship and work to complete all those centuries ago. What’s your evidence?

    Also, you said,

    “how about the ‘rigged’ research of the Mind Life Institute that is NOT scientific research because it is done by members of the Dalai Lama cult and clique, , they are the ‘advocates, researchers and financial backers” and last time I looked at the protocols this is the opposite of ‘good science’ since there is a gross bias to the outcome?”

    Where is your evidence that the research on Mind and Life is “rigged”? What is your reasoning that there is a “gross bias to the outcome”?

    Perhaps you should slow down and back up your allegations, instead of just loading on more unsubstantiated statements?


  287. And you interestingly quote me, even though I was just summarizing what Dzogar and Ponlop said, and even when I quote them exactly, documented, YOU CANT HEAR IT. You leap over it into proselytising rants for your Lamas and the Dalai Lama. I think he is the master thought control representative, because he creates this phenomena in anyone who spends too much time with him.

    Someone well-versed in thought control should study these threads, and how you literally cannot read or hear anything contradictory, and so you pass over it, and continue on what is clearly a programmed rant of robotic true believer nonsense, having nothing to do with anything that is actually being addressed , except peripherally as a jumping off point for your ‘religious proselytising’ which you continue to do, BUT not what Dzongsar and Ponlop R said about the Tibetan Translations being ‘narrow in focus’ and not actually knowing what the Buddha taught. Two tulkus of Thrangu Rinpoche who were raised in Rumtek under his tutelage!!!! And you literally cannot take this in, that they said this NOT me.

    Why am I bothering, you can’t hear this or that this is actually said by these lamas, your brain’s grooves just bypass it. I believe literally you are ‘thought controlled” hypnotized in some way, to NOT read anything that contradicts or casts doubt on Lamaism. That is why it is thought control and a cult. You demonstrate it on here, over and over.

    It has been a fascinating experience to watch you do this.


  288. Stop it Joanne, you are pathetic. I just quoted Dzongsar R and Ponlop R, students of Thrangu R, under his tutelage at Rumtek, admitting to the truth about the so called Tibetan Teachings of the Buddha,and their narrow focus, and not translating them from Sanskrit or Pali and you are giving me as an answer the “memorized chanting” that Thrangu has his students do, before every teaching? of something in Sanskrit? that they ‘memorized” A chant? Are you kidding me. I also studied with Thrangu R I know all those chants he does BEFORE a teaching. Stop it. Like the Tibetan monks who were illiterate, you can just memorize the chants, or read the ‘TIBETAN” translation under the stanzas.Those lamas had those chants memorized from when some of them did know Sanskrit, maybe a hundred years ago or more.

    It is the teachings of these OLD Tibetan Lama Lineages you are getting NOT the words of the Buddha . They don’t know Sanskrit and Pali,and haven’t had any lamas for probably a hundred years know these languages. Any old Lamas that did are all dead now. That’s why they just collect dust on the shrines. . Do you think that Dzongsar and Ponlop are making this up?

    And perhaps the DL could add, when he is admonishing them to study these texts that they better learn Sanskrit and Pali first, a little ‘detail’ this “precision teacher” left out since he just says things for ‘show’ anyway.
    So Joanne what do you think about the new Khentse R bowing lower than the little predator you went to great lengths to ‘out ‘ on DI, or how about the Rigpa Lama , Chogki Nyingma, all cozy with him, and therefore confusing the whole Rigpa sangha of lama devotees of the Tulku Urgyen lineage crowd ? Nothing to say about that? Or how about the ‘rigged’ research of the Mind Life Institute that is NOT scientific research because it is done by members of the Dalai Lama cult and clique, , they are the ‘advocates, researchers and financial backers” and last time I looked at the protocols this is the opposite of ‘good science’ since there is a gross bias to the outcome?

    How come you don’t want to address these things, but would rather get in a shouting match about how much you know about Tibetan Buddhism? Because you once studied with Thrangu R?


  289. Oh and I forgot– whenever I point out your inaccuracies (because after all I’m a Virgo and really do like sticking to what is true), you then revert to a long rant about how I am a cult follower and my desire for the truth is a demonstration of how blindly I follow Lamaism.

    Can you explain to me how my desire for what is true demonstrates that I am a blind cult follower? I don’t see the connection.


  290. The way I see it, Chris, is that there are two Dalai Lamas. There is the real Dalai Lama that most of us see and hear and some of us read his books etc. and some of us even know him personally. Then there’s your puppet Dalai Lama who bears absolutely no resemblance to the real one, the one we all know. You make up all these silly stories about him that are simply not true of the real Dalai Lama. And you have all these cute methods for dismissing evidence that the real Dalai Lama does exist. I remember once when I quoted from his autobiography you said that it couldn’t be believed because the translators weren’t to be trusted, it was doctored or something. And then on this thread, you said a real whopper– you said that he doesn’t write any of his books– so his books aren’t the real Dalai Lama either. We’re all being duped.

    Next you’ll be saying that the Dalai Lama we see on webcast and TV is a fraud and the real one is at home indulging in secret mischief.
    I mean, give me a break.


  291. Chris said, “By the way everyone, the tickets for the Dalai Lama’s humble speech in NYC was as high as 419.00 a seat to be lucky enough to bask in his presence. How much were the cheaper tickets that this humble monk charges to add to his billions in his coffers? Along with the millions the tax payers in the country still channel him, as does India?”

    The Dalai Lama does not take a cent for any teaching that he gives. In his residence in India, attendees (thousands of them) pay nothing and are served tea and bread. Most of that charge in New York went to Beacon theater, for security etc. Even the donations, His Holiness gives away. When are you going to have a concern for the accuracy of your allegations, Chris? I could go on and on and on, pointing out your inaccuracies!

    As for the quote that you provided on the Mind and Life Conferences, I don’t care if the pope said it, it is still incorrect. Why don’t you use primary sources instead of internet gossip?

    And as for your extensive years of studying Buddhism, why then are your rants so empty of Dharmic sources and proper understanding? Why did you once claim that Tibetan Buddhism came from the third turning of the Wheel of Dharma which is considered the highest Buddhist teaching? (e.g. that is simply wrong).

    Along those lines, Chris, you said,
    “Tibetan lamas have for years taught from their ‘lineages teachings” and kept the originally translated texts just on the shrine, with no one knowing what the Buddha actually taught anymore, you are talking crap as usual.”

    Crap? Look on the Dalai Lama’s website and note how many of the teachings available there, on webcast, are on texts by the Buddha himself, as well as by Nagarjuna, Atisha, Shantideva etc. etc. etc. I will remind you that the teaching in New York was on the Heart Sutra (Remember? A Perfection of Wisdom text from Sanskrit?)– and it was chanted in Sanskrit at the beginning of the teachings. Not only that, HH Dalai Lama often comments on a small difference between the Chinese and Tibetan translations of Sanskrit in that text– just one word– “also”– which is present in the Sanskrit and Tibetan but not in the Chinese and which bears great significance to the meaning. So you see, Chris, there is an enormous degree of attention to detail in at least the teachings that I know about. I also know that Thrangu Rinpoche teaches from the kangyur and tengyur and is quite a thorough teacher, he used to be a teacher of mine. There is an enormous degree of respect for meticulous translating amongst the serious teachers– and there are serious teachers! It’s up to us to find them!

    HH Dalai Lama also admonishes Tibetans for keeping the kangyur on their shrines instead of studying them– he does this every time he teaches from the kangyur!

    When are you going to stop ranting and start speaking from what is true?


  292. This isn’t for the Bobsey twins, because nothing posted that contradicts those two neophytes and their tiny knowledge of Tibetan Buddhism/Lamaism, and whose deep programming prevents them from doing anything but ‘skimming’ material to go on a personal attack rather than address the material presented. but here is part of Dzongsar R’s speech admitting that Tibetan teachers don’t know what the Buddha actually taught since none of them read Sanskrit anymore,

    Dzongsar: “Painful as it is for me to admit,” he continued, “Tibetans often promote the teachings of their own teachers far more than those of the Buddha… Today, as a result, our vision is quite narrow, and instead of dedicating our limited resources to translating the ‘Words of the Buddha’, we pour them into translating the teachings of individual lineage gurus, their biographies, their long-life prayers, and prayers for the propagation of the teachings of individual schools.”

    Dzogchen Pönlop Rinpoche, in his speech, told us: “It would be quite ironic to claim to be a Buddhist but have no idea what the Buddha taught.” It is therefore crucial, he said, that western Buddhists have access to the words of the Buddha”

    Of course when they do translate the buddha’s teachings from the original Sanskrit and Pali, they , like Stephen Batchelor before them will be in for a shock since the actual Buddhas teaching make no mention of ‘gurus’ or even of “reincarnation” what there whole edifice of exploitation in based on.


  293. Notice the two Bobsey Twins never address the pictures of Sogyal and all those hypocrite high Lamas bowing to him , even though Joanne has condemned him as a sexual predator on this site, and written a lengthy treatise on Sogyal’s sexual abuses, but NO COMMENT at all on any of the pictures , videos, of all these Lamas protecting and endorsing him and sucking up to his money making abilities, nor do they argue against the comments on the petition by the President of the NeuroSciences about the corruption of the research by the Dalai Lama and Company out of the Mind Life Science, and its ‘meditation’, No. they come like banshees to attack me me me again, hoping that no one will read anything factual that contradicts their deep programming by Lamaism. Whenever they start in on me, me , me again, that should be a sign that something I have posted is very threatening to them.


  294. I actually studied with Dilgo Khentse R for three weeks, , while you just quote him. I studied the sutras, the mahayana teachings, and the vajrayana and Dzogchen texts for 25 years. From all the texts, original and commentary texts, and books by most every Tibetan lama that is now circling the wagon around their little predator or that had their translators write, in their name, books on these texts and commentary.

    Since the Tibetan teachers themselves do not teach from the Pali or Sanskrit teachings, and no student of these lamas therefore read the original texts in Sanskrit either (except for Stephen Batchelor former student and translator and monk of the Dalai Lama who, when he broke away from Tibetan Lamaism, says in the Sanskrit there is no mention of ‘guru’ or ‘reincarnation” therefore it is made up by the Lamas) and since the Lamas only learn from Tibetan texts, but you two neophytes wouldn’t know that, and in fact, in 2010 , Dzongsar R admonished the Tibetan translators , eastern and western, to start learning these languages, because Tibetan lamas have for years taught from their ‘lineages teachings” and kept the originally translated texts just on the shrine, with no one knowing what the Buddha actually taught anymore, you are talking crap as usual.

    And Joanne, gossip? This was the PRESIDENT of the NEUROSCIENCES Foundation talking about how corrupted this ‘science” of your precious Dalai Lama and company at the Mind Life Science group was, and she didn’t want him to speak at their Conference because the advocates, researchers, and financial backers of this ‘meditation’ were true believers also like yourselves.

    You are so mind controlled you just skim quickly,whatever is put out here, like Kate, because your brains are now programmed to NOT read anything with comprehension that will contradict your programming.

    The Dalai Lama talks out of both sides of his mouth. He is a notorious liar, who also says old Tibet was a peaceful, happy country of plenty. Even pictures of old Tibet won’t convince Lama Lunatics. He says what ever naive programmed cult members want to here. He is also an ‘environmentalist” now as well.

    Ask him the next time you two are at a conference whether the young girls and women (who couldn’t step foot inside a monastery in Tibet because of being women) had a choice about being a ‘consort ‘ of these old creepy Lamas and their occult practices? See what he says. Oh, I forgot, like the NeuroScience Petition says, at the conferences now the questions are ‘preselected’ on notecards in advance, so much for the Dalai Lamas advocacy free speech and ‘inquiring minds.”

    By the way everyone, the tickets for the Dalai Lama’s humble speech in NYC was as high as 419.00 a seat to be lucky enough to bask in his presence. How much were the cheaper tickets that this humble monk charges to add to his billions in his coffers? Along with the millions the tax payers in the country still channel him, as does India?


  295. And here is another wonderful snippet by the Dalai Lama on sexual abuse:

    “It may happen that an unmarried teacher meets an unmarried student while teaching. If the relationship develops in a normal way with mutual agreement and mutual respect and they decide to marry, it is fine. When two people in a relationship treat each other equally, there is no difference in power or status during sexual intercourse. The teacher is not on a throne then! However, if the teacher is with one student one month and another the next, that is not right. Also, imposing or forcing sexual contact is wrong. So is misusing the idea of dakinis by saying things such as “You have signs of being a qualified dakini,” or flattering the student, “You have very great Dharma potential.” Women should not be afraid to say no!”


  296. And in the interest of better informing Chris, here is a link to a conversation between the Dalai Lama and Western Buddhists about the student-teacher relationship. This demonstrates clearly that Chris’s assumptions about the Dalai Lama’s attitude towards guru worship are simply wrong and based on ignorance– like most of what she writes. He speaks out strongly and frequently against misconduct on the part of lamas and about the dangers of seeing the lama’s actions as perfect. But really, people should read this link!

    Because I am aware that Chris does not read very much and prefers snippets, here is small quote from that link, one in which the Dalai Lama discusses the role of sex in tantra, a discussion that comes up frequently in most of these threads:

    “The practice of tantra is never an excuse for unethical behavior. If one understands Vajrayana well, there are no grounds to excuse bad behavior. One of the tantras states that the ideal lay tantric practitioner should follow all of the Vinaya (monastic discipline), but without wearing robes or engaging in monastic ceremonies. On a very advanced level of highest tantric practice, the joining of the male and female organs is a technique used to manifest the subtlest mind and gain the deepest wisdom of reality. This is using the physical body as a mechanical device for furthering insight, but there is no desire, emission, or orgasm. In fact, this is a method for overcoming desire. In the past, in Tibet, a practitioner had to be able to demonstrate supernatural powers, such as flying through the air, to qualify for such practice. If someone could not do that, they were not permitted to use these techniques. At present, there are very few Tibetan masters at that level. Dilgo Khentse Rinpoche, whom I respect, commented that there are a few highly realized practitioners nowadays who can practice like this. I do know that some meditators in the mountains who keep the Vinaya strictly have attained extraordinary realizations.”


  297. You can rant, Chris, you can gossip, but you cannot demonstrate that Tibetan Buddhism is in-authentic Buddhism without a sound knowledge of both– both Tibetan Buddhism and Buddhism as laid out in the sutras, Shastras and great commentaries by the Indian masters. It’s impossible.


  298. Chris, I think Kate was asking you to give sources from your “extensive study,” not your passing impressions of this lama or that. It is exactly the same with your rant about the Mind and Life Institute. You have obviously never listened to a conference, yet you pose as an expert on what is wrong with it. For example, there is never a discussion in any conference about practicing the “Dalai Lama’s kind of meditation.” Never. It simply is never a topic– the goal is to alleviate suffering. The goal is secular. How can you judge what you know nothing about?

    In the same way, how can you posit an argument that Tibetan Buddhism is not authentic Buddhism without any recourse to Buddhist scriptures? You obviously have no knowledge of Buddhism, as taught in Pali and Sanskrit, and simply anecdotal understanding of Tibetan Buddhism. For example, I am also certain you have never listened to a teaching by the Dalai Lama– and yet you pose as an expert on his approach to Buddhism. How can you judge what you know nothing about?


  299. Interesting petition circulated by President of Neurosciences in 2005, Against the Dalai Lama infiltrating their organization and speaking about NeuroScience, what you will never hear about , from Dalai Lama /Mind Life Institute proponents about how well Lamaism integrates and is augmenting the field of neuroscience. This is quite a good discussion about facts within the petition and how these cult members of Lamaism pushed their agenda of ‘science’ into the field of neuroscience with the help of wealthy backers I believe with political agendas of social engineering to quell the masses into submission and dliute futher our western reasoning and further ‘dumb us down’ as a nation, if that is even possible.

    ‘,,,research related to the Dalai Lama’s kind of meditation is limited in scope and depth, and also suffers from close association with practicing believers who are often not only the advocates, but also the researchers and sometimes financial sponsors of such research. ”


  300. Oh, I forgot, you are learning the new ‘white washed’ and “scientific” Tibetan Lama pretense teachings for the ” fringe”, from some other clone Lama of the kelptocracy mafia, I can’t remember whether you were one of the Dalai Lama duped. Of course they all use the same strategies, these lamas don’t have an original thought or behavior EVER in their repertoire. They are all the same. Doesn’t matter. They were programmed since they were two to four years old to be clones for the Lama system. You are getting only the “fringe” teachings, especially created to “thought control” the outer masses .


  301. He also uses ‘confession’ in his retreats, one of the main techniques in a cult. Humiliating his students in front of a group of 100 people to blame one self for everything that happens in the world, while pretending at his book sales signings that he is a westernized ,cool hip lama. They ALL do this, deceive the public or the fringe about who they really are. So how on earth would you ever know what they are really teaching at your ‘secular ethics’ baloney teachings of the Dalai Lama, in NYC as an arm of the plutocracy to promote and help spread ‘acceptance’ of ‘austerity measures’ in this country to bankrupt the U.S? And that is his ONLY purpose and why he is still on the U.S. tax payer’s payroll and why we are allowing this tyrant to continue his pretense that has fooled so many smart people , like yourself.


  302. Actually Kate it was in Tsoknyi R ‘s teachings, someone who lets his fantatic devotees believe and it is taught in his biography, that he is a lineage holder, or incarnate teacher from the first Tsoknyi , an incarnation birth of a human and a deity, and he teaches all the time that one can only transcend the human realm through Tibetan lamaism teachings, and it is the human realm that one has the best chance of transcending this realm into nirvana or enlightenment,. That is a common teaching of Tibetan Lamaism 101, i.e. enlightenment is escaping all the realms. Where are YOU learning about Tibetan Lamaism? Let me guess the Dalai Lama, who is currently ‘whitewashing’ the occult and ridiculous belief systems of Tibetan Lamaism and teaching now ‘secular ethics’ the funniest mask yet that this superstitious medieval tyrant who has his own people setting themselves on fire and never yet has told them to STOP it. . Tosknyi R , who has all his Phd’s psychologists, eventually prostrating to him and doing their next or 3rd ngondro to make sure they are slaves of lamaism, (and also being a main supporter of his ‘mentor’ Sogyal who circled the wagons when the scandals broke, also teaches his Phd psychologist students that ‘he doesn’t believe in history’ that’s a quote from one of his Dzogchen teaching seminars, and therefore of course , they shouldn’t either. And they all nodded their heads in robotic unison.


  303. Chris Chandler, on October 29, 2013 at 9:31 pm said:

    “life time after lifetime.can you escape it into ‘enlightenment’ i.e. nirvana and transcending the human realm.”

    Joanne, on October 29, 2013 at 10:12 pm said:

    “Only those with a limited or non-existent understanding of Buddhism are allowed to post about whether or not Tibetan Buddhism is “Lamaism” or instead, a legitimate Buddhist tradition.”

    Chris Chandler, on October 30, 2013 at 1:53 pm said:

    “And Joanne, it might surprise you to know that I spent decades studying these very texts that you cite”

    It certainly surprises me after the first quote.
    Where did you learn that Chris?
    Hegel has the excuse of having lived 200 years ago and hardly any contact with Tibet, but you claim to have decades of contemporary experience.

    What version of Buddhism teaches transcending the human realm?

    Was it Advaita (Hinduism) that you practiced?


  304. if you weren’t out proselytizing for this dangerous cult of Lamaism, Joanne, I wouldn’t bother to answer your posts that always wind up directed at me, I realize you have tried to ‘get me on your side’ this time with your “oh so compassionate and superior moral equanimity” a residual of being with all those western lama cult members and the Dalai Deceiver and thus you tried appealing to my imagined ‘victimhood’ in Lamaism since that is where you wish to remain,and project that I must of course be there to , since you can’t imagine leaving your addiction to these Lamas.

    I hope you never become an addiction counselor Joanne, since you are such a hopeless addict still to your Lamas on those thrones, and will of course be recruiting for them.

    You should never be an addiction counselor. Never.


  305. These pictures are taken and displayed for the faithfools of Tibetan Lamaism, to show a BIG DISPLAY of RESPECT for Sogyal exactly when the Canadian Film was shown, or about to be shown , on public television in May of 2011. You think these lamas do anything spontaneously or non-politically? Their very survival as a kleptocracy depends on “controlled media”. They invented ‘controlled media’ in the middle ages. What do you think their ‘dances’ with wrathful deities was all about for their illiterate peasants? Scaring them to death? That was their ‘controlled terrorist media” display to scare the populace into obedience.

    That high lama incarnation, I repeat, IS BOWING LOWER TO SOGYAL, that’s all you need to know about who these Lamas are and what they value, and it ain’t the human race, its themselves, they bow to each other and the biggest money makers, just like in our own corporate oligarchy when the billionaires gets the biggest and lowest bow in our wall street kleptocracy. .


  306. Here’s the photo link referred to above , and the Lama mafia displayed in the photos, taken by westerners who haven’t really a clue what this lama cartel is really about. They are really paying homage to Sogyal the BIG money maker for the Lamas, but entititled ” paying homage to the new Khentse Rinpoche.”

    Notice how low the Khentse R (Yangsi, meaning new incarnation of the past Khentse) is bowing to Sogyal the predator, and NOT the other way around.

    These lamas always bow the lowest to the money makers the real objects of their ‘devotion’, , they grovel for money, they live for the money, they are the gollums of our century disguised as the yodas because westerners don’t really know about buddhism or what the Buddha really taught and believe me, it wasn’t this monkey show..


  307. They all come around these Yangsi’s , these young incarnate tulkus, the old Lamas can count on that.

    There is the Yangsi of Khentse Rinpoche, a sad shadow of his predecessor who used to keep his robe over his head, he so hated his role, but who now sees the ‘perks” and is bowing to that turd in robes Soygal , who is ‘respected’ by all the lamas,in the picture portfolio of the Lama Mafia and Sogyal.and why not? they are all multimillionaires, raking it in from the faithfools of both the west and now the east. They are the Rothschild and the Rockefellers of Tibet, hanging out, and in fact the Rothschilds and the Rockefellers and George Soros , that wall street right of center ‘liberal’ , funds the Dalai Lama and his projects. so does Prince Charles and the usual ‘aristocrats’ they know the power these lamas have to make blithering fools of us in the west, and because they are doing such a good job in keeping the masses quelled , they are rewarded by the controlled media of corporations and their scandals hardly make the radar.

    They now use even ‘limited hangout’ stories, i.e. expose a smaller scandal to hide a bigger one, in Tibetan Lamaism, so the story about the Kalu Rinpoche ‘confessions” about his sexual abuse? A ‘limited hangout story”, that comes out the same time as Sogyal’s egregious abuse of western women is all over Canadian public television. This then totally diverts the sexual abuse stories that are in the news at the time. Then , of course, this Kalu ‘tulku’ soon makes his ‘rapper video that goes viral and he has 80,000 hits as the new, hip tulku, all with the approval of the Dalai mafia of Lamaism, albeit on a lower throne , but still on a throne, still part of the Lama mafia, rehabilitated but now going after the younger generation to fool them into believing that he doesn’t buy all that tulku stuff.

    But there is kink in the Lamas plan along with their .01 % welathy elite financial backers that is the new Pope, Oh dear, what will the lamas and the United Religious Initiative and their occult alliance do? They were hoping to destroy traditional religion and usher in the New World religion with the Lamas and the forefront, thought controlling the world into a stupor. Oh dear, different causes and conditions coming into play.


  308. So you incite emotion by posting that video, you incite cultural and religious intolerance. It’s not right, Chris.

    No Joanne she cuts through the flim flam and gives evidence in 2 minute segments to break the conditioning. You are trying to use emotional arguments to bypass the mind. Get it this has nothing to do with religion just mind control.
    By his behaviour and one sees it in the videos he endorses, enables and is happy in the presence of Sogyal.
    This longer video has it all…. Look reflect and open your mind?


  309. Joanne:

    From these, Chris has deduced her Lamaism conspiracy theory, which essentially concludes that there are no redeeming qualities in Tibetan Buddhism nor in Tibetan culture.

    Chris certainly needs no help from me, but I just want to note that because others classify TB=Lamaism you misrepresent your opponents with the following:
    there are no redeeming qualities in Tibetan Buddhism nor in Tibetan culture. No one is making any such claim, just noting it is not Buddhism, can you not get it, even if you disagree. You are a broken record.


  310. After all this intellectualising the only point our Taiwanese Buddhist friends are making in sending us this link, is that till very recently the both Tibetans and the West called what you call TB=Lamaism.
    The rest is just hanging fruit……………..


  311. To Balance out, YOU? You are a cult member of Lamaism and no matter what anyone exposes you to , you believe the Lama party line.

    Discussing Addiction with Lamas!! I think there is only one group more naive and stupid than the western cult Lamaists and that is a group of psychologists, but of course people don’t realize that they overlap now at a very high proportion.

    Discussing addictions? These Lamas create “Addiction” , addiction THEM! Like yourself. Still running to every event (how much did you pay for your ticket to this event you lucky girl) Alleviate suffering? They caused and continued the most extreme suffering of their own people for a hundreds of years, lopped off limbs, gouged out eyes, for minor infractions, which believe me, they will do again if they get the chance. That is your Lamas of “compassion”, like the Dalai Lama who spent his adolescence observing through his telescope the ‘suffering’ all round him , below the Potala Palace , of his own people and didn’t stop this gouging of eyes, and lopping of of limbs, as all part of their ‘karma’ as was their poverty justified by Mr. Compassion, He spent the last days of his life there, adding a ‘wing’ to the Potala Palace, instead of instituting all the ‘democratic changes’ he is always tooting his horn about, He was in the lineage of vile dictators of the most extreme repression of his own people, that the Khans and the Nazis admired!

    And you dear Joanne are such a wonderful subject of the power of group mind, for whom these Lamas just have to say ‘compassion” like a little child watching a commercial for a snickers bar, and the ad says ‘healthy and delicious’ and you buy it, its at that level. And these Lamas are going to talk about addiction. They invented addictions!! Addictions to them on those thrones for a thousand years of their own people , so addicted to them, they set themselves on fire for them .

    That they just mouth the words with a bunch of blabbering psychologists ( I also spent 30 years with them , being one of them, as you clearly have not, and I can assure you, they can be the most arrogant group of elitists , with only a few exceptions, who believe they too know the answers to everything and yet have been so massively duped by this cult of lamaism, that they are now promoting as ‘scientific’ .that it will take a hammer and chisel to get the egg of their faces in the near future. But of course, because this group of scientists out of MIT and Stanford , the same place that brought us MI6 and the CIA’s MKUltra thought control program, who have learned one doesn’t need need drugs, they can use the “groupies”, like you Joanne, to indoctrinate a whole population, so dumbed down and so massively indoctrinated into this cult of Lamaism that you will believe you are on the side of the ‘good’ when you are promoting repressive tyrannical regime of , group think and doublespeak that only Orwell would appreciate.


  312. And just to balance out the 2 minute u-tube snippet which Chris posted above, here is a link to what HH the Dalai Lama is doing this week:—craving-desire-and-addiction/4572

    He is meeting with scientists on the problems of addiction in our world. This is of particular interest to me personally, as it is a field I might return to. It is not a 2 minute snippet, but hours and hours of discussions and scientific findings on how to alleviate suffering in the world. That’s all, that’s what I am attracted to, simply the alleviation of suffering, nothing more. That’s my measure of what is of worth. Simple.


  313. Run away Joanne when whenever I answer all your sophomoric ‘arguments” and knee jerk ‘assumptions’ about me, or where I am coming from, or when I ask you direct questions. about your sitting at a the feet of the Dalai Lama, i.e. jumping from the Frying pan into the fire, someone who endorses the sexual predator you blew the whistle on. Or answer all your arguments , point by point. Run away again, you are a ‘debater” at the level of those Gelugpa monks in Dharmasala of the Dalai Lama, when it gets outside the ‘universe of pat answers’ you don’t know what to do, so you just leave the field with a moralistic aside about being on the side of the good. Pathetic. But a great example of what I am exposing.


  314. Yes, Joanne you are on the side of the ‘good’

    No, you are on the side of ignorance, and totalitarianism and superstitious religion. Pity for you and your fantasies of superiority and morality disguised as the ‘good’. It’s people like you in the west that are so dangerous .Nothing penetrates your bubble and there are thousands of you now, indoctrinated into Lamaism. Very dangerous to critical thinking and reasoning, that is how you will be remembered in history.


  315. The Dalai Lama is teaching people now to ‘stick to their own religions’ because Lamaism has infiltrated all these religions, and watered them down anyway, created a New Age Christianity anyway, heavily influenced by Tibetan Buddhism Lamaism and western new age theosophy, and now he doesn’t need people like you Joanne, or me anymore, because it has infiltrated so deeply into our society and he certainly doesn’t want the general population to go any deeper into Lamaism and actually ‘learn’ what it is really about, You are so naive Joanne really it is amazing the naivete . And you believe that the Dalai Lama writes his books himself? These Lamas all have translators to write their books. Robert Thurman writes the Dalai Lamas books, and of course you don’t notice that after what, 40 years, the Dalai Lama and most of these old Tibetan Lamas still can’t speak English, like most ordinary people learn in a few years. He is having his lama monks infiltrate into western higher education, NOT to learn western science but to water it down. It is a massive infiltration into western culture at the highest level of academia. Do you think these cult lamaists respect the western body of knowledge? They are being massively sent out to infiltrate and dumb down the college classes they are in, and promote the ‘soft sciences’ and psuedo sciences of the Mind Life Institute. They are infiltrating into academia,, to pollute it.


  316. So easy to disparage the good in others, so hard to bring out the good in ourselves. I wish you well, Chris.


  317. And Joanne, it might surprise you to know that I spent decades studying these very texts that you cite, and in the end, it was the cult atmosphere that became the most vivid to me, a cult that uses the buddhist texts to indoctrinate, and the cult sangha of the most nasty people I have ever been around, the most repressive group situation , moralistically superior and nasty, that use words like ‘compassion’ while stepping over people who are suffering, literally, and who are so focused on their LAMAS they wouldn’t notiice suffering around them, anymore than the Lamas do, that is the real instrument of Lamaism, groupthink and group mind, that meets all the criteria of a cult, and that uses the buddha’s teachings and the Indian teachings on the Mahayana and Hinayana to indoctrinate westerners into believing that THIS is what Lamaism is about. That is what become ‘crystal clear’ in the end. But you wouldn’t know that, since you have bought the deception that Lamaism uses hook , line and sinker and have clearly no experience of them up front and personal and how ignorant, misogynistic, medieval and patriarchal and abusive they really are when you get to be in their ‘inner circle.’ . They are obsessed with sex, that is all they think about, most of them, and everyone of them are on the hunt, because their cult religion teaches them that they must have sex with a young woman constantly, or several young women at a time, in their tantric teachings, the higher teachings that they believe give them their power and their charisma. There are very very few exceptions to this. And the exceptions keep quiet about Tantra and what it really is about. That you still think Tibetan Buddhism is about these hinayana and mahayana texts, shows what a ‘fringey’ you really are.


  318. Yes that’s what the Lamas call it, comparable to a western doctorate, that’s what Robert Thurman an academic cult member of tibetan buddhism says it is ‘equivalent to’ and so every one just accepts that. Are you kidding me? A western doctorate? These high lamas got the same education, as the rest of the high tulkus, just what I said, because they spent 10 years or 12 years in this superstitous mumbo jumbo of medieval ‘education’ it is equivalent to a western doctorate! Quantum physics, neuroscience, or the environmental sciences! Yes that this Robert Thurman’s role to promote this medieval monk and his ‘education’ who is quoted as saying he learned everything about the west from Heinrich Harrer, and he sure did, for the Nazis were rehabilitated and came to the U.S. and infiltrated higher academia in particular the Ivory tower of elite schools, just like the lamas, the favorite religion of all the centuries totalitiarian governments, are doing now. , but as I asked you, you really have no intimate, non sexual realtionships socially with this tulkus, , these paragons of intelligence and wisdom do you? You never address real direct questions, as all programmed cult members of Lamaism never do. Snippets?, these are the real facts about Lamaism and if you weren’t in it’s cult you would be educating yourself about the real history and the dangers of Lamaism to the west, to extricate yourself from this thought control program you are so deeply in that you can’t see he forest for the trees or Lamaism and its roots that creates a Sogyal. So you have neither real experience with these Lamas on a day to day basis, but only as someone in an audience of programmed westerners, nor do you research anything yourself, as the Buddha exhorted us to do. So why are you on here? Simply to reinforce the programmatic indoctrination of Lamaism that you are mind controlled to do, without thought, without a moment’s hesitiation. You don’t answer the question or any direct questions, , for example, why are you with the Dalai Lama now, since he has massively promoted and endorsed this sexual predator Sogyal? That you whistle blew about on DI. So how do you rationalize that? Oh let me guess, he is such a kind lama that he doesn’t wanted to say anything ‘negative.” BULL SHIT , he is promoting Sogyal because Sogyal of Lakar comes from a tradition, not of Tulkus but of wealthy benefactors whose family lineage supported Lamaism in Tibet, just as he is doing in the west. Look him up on the Rigpa prpaganda site. Sogyal of Lakar can’t help but brag , so it is all on there, who his family lineage was, just wealthy benefactors of the cult of Lamaism that kept Tibetan people enslaved and who is enslaving westerners now. Of course the Dalai Lama supports this sexual predator because he has made millions for the spread of the cult of Lamaism, he doesn’t give a damn about the accusations of sexual abuse, But you can’t see this. Tibetan Lamaism IS a sexually abusive cult, both of the young boys in the monasteries and of women, using them as consorts to empower this cult of magic, sexual abuse and alchemic superstition to empower a priestly cult of misogyny and .enslavement that has been the religious arm of totalitarian regimes, from the Chinese empire, to the Mongolian Khans, , and now the Plutocracy in the west. How proud you must feel to be part of this lineage that always brings misery and poverty to whomever they encounter and indoctrinate. Worse than the Islamic fundamentalists because they use deception as a tool.


  319. And it is curious, Chris. The Dalai Lama currently travels and teaches tirelessly. He teaches secular subjects such as loving kindness, compassion, tolerance, forgiveness etc. He teaches religious tolerance. He encourages people to stick to their own traditional religions. Thousands and thousands of people leave his talks inspired to be better people– they are not encouraged to change religions or cultures, not encouraged to bow or prostrate to any lama, just encouraged simply to be better people.

    To Buddhists, the Dalai Lama teaches from the ancient Indian texts, such as those by Nagarjuna and Shantideva. Recently in New York, he taught from the Heart Sutra. These texts are HARD, Chris. They are challenging and they have nothing to do with ignorance, blind faith, ritual or cultish attitudes. They demand that the student think, reason and investigate– cultivating such qualities are the antithesis of cult attitudes.

    You can look, Chris and you will find hours and hours and hours of the Dalai Lama’s teachings, talks and books and you will find nothing cultish about them, nothing that encourages individuals to become Buddhists or followers of the Dalai Lama or practitioners of ritual.

    What is strange is that instead of doing that, instead of investigating fully, instead of seeking proof for you Lamaism theory in that extensive body of work, you choose to focus on one aspect of the Dalai Lama’s activities which is culturally uncomfortable for people– his use of an oracle. You find one little snippet of video, out of hundreds of hours of videos, which will somehow support your conspiracy theory about Lamaism– it will support it because the main basis of your theory is emotion and cultural intolerance– and watching that oracle makes people in our culture uncomfortable. So you incite emotion by posting that video, you incite cultural and religious intolerance. It’s not right, Chris.


  320. Just an fyi, Chris, the Dalai Lama obtained the Geshe degree. The study involved in obtaining this degree can be compared to a Western doctorate. It is extensive and highly demanding and includes understanding of all the Buddha’s sutras and the commentaries of the ancient Indian scholars. It is not based on performing rituals, but on understanding the meaning behind the rituals. Many of the monks in the monasteries study for this degree as well and the Dalai Lama is now introducing Western science into the curriculum. As I don’t believe that you have done extensive study of relativity, quantum physics, neuroscience or the environmental sciences, how are you qualified to judge the standards of that study?

    Chris, it’s good to stick to full understanding of the facts and not 2 minute snippets of this and that.


  321. You’ve never actually had an ‘intimate’ and I don’t mean sexual relationship with a Tibetan Lama have you Joanne? So you really don’t know what I am talking about do you? Since you have never really gotten to know these tulkus on a social level have you?


  322. Here is a description of the training of the ” Nechung oracle” by himself, whom the Dalai Lama consults, and discussing his ‘education’ in a two minute interview, He learned theTibetan alphabet and the rituals , and that’s it, which is the education most monks get, if they are very lucky. this is for the U.S. indoctrination: and consumption, to return us all to a medieval time when consulting oracles and ‘entrails to predict the future was our ‘science too.:Sadly, the U.S. has been so ‘dumbed down’ that they think this is wonderful and a replacement for the western canon and our own western critical thinking:


  323. You are in a cult, I don’t respect cults or members of a cult that spread their cult to others. That you wish to pretend to yourself still that this is a ‘religion’ to respect or to give the status of Buddhism to still, is your problem not mine.


  324. Nechung oracle, correct spelling. the real “Science” of Lamaism. Save us from the ‘wisdom’ of western cult members of Tibetan Lamaists PLEASE, we should all pray for that. :



  325. And I have to say, Chris, that I would never disparage another person’s religious faith and practice the way you have disparaged mine. It would go against my notions of human decency.


  326. There is no ‘debate’ in Tibetan Buddhist Lamaism, there is a predetermined outcome to the pseudo debates, that all the monks are being programmed to accept which always leads to the same conclusions and outcome. The monks ONLY had religious training and no secular education, Most remained illiterate, about 95% of them, or learned to ‘count’ all the money and sundries hoarded by the monastic system, and become tax collectors, (literally the monks were sent out to collect the taxes for every life event from the poor peasants) or to memorize chants to mindlessly repeat for hours in dark candle lit rooms. Only the wealthy elites sons were trained in the Lama religious system a medieval ,superstitious system of ‘education’ , i.e. astrology, religious dancing and theatre, caligraphy etc. an art that was totally circumscribed to formulaic religious drawings and sculptures of their pantheon of deities,an art that repressed any possibility of originality , individualism or creativity. They had no choice about being monks, if they ran away, and many did, they were returned to the monastery, there was no choice for these sons, often giving to the monasteries as tax, or a given for a families chance to have one less mouth to feed, or at moving up the caste system for the family if recognized as a tulku. This was NOT a superior education of wisdom , this mass monasticism, it was a system that was a sealed and closed ‘education’ if you can call it that, for only the few, and ensured that no ‘individual thinking’ ever emerged. That is why Tibetan monks and Lamas, when you peel off the veneer that western projections have created, are some of the most ignorant people one could ever imagine meeting, it is like coming face to face with someone straight out of the 8th century. I always think about ‘Being There ” that 79 movie with Peter Sellers about Chauncey Gardiner, a simple minded illiterate gardener and handyman, whom everyone assumes is dispensing brilliant words of wisdom, as he reaches the pinnacle of political and social elite status because of merely ‘projections’ of others. THAT is the Dalai Lama and if he weren’t so consciously deceptive and being used by the worst forces in the west to quell the masses, it would be a farce at that level. Wisdom? Scientific? Someone that still consults the Nachen oracle 7 or 8 times a year, according to the Nachen oracle’s website? Who has Tibetans setting themselves on fire for his dead political causes? Or who burn books when they don’t like what is written. THIS is the new Science for the west?


  327. So let’s start with the facts:: 1. There are abusive Tibetan Buddhist teachers currently, as there have been in the past; 2. Tibetan history has episodes of trouble, abuses of power, repression of the poor, atrocities, wars etc.; and 3. Tibetans have not entirely rid themselves of the some of the causes of these troubles, such as their tendencies towards blind faith in their religious devotions and their tendencies towards hierarchical social structures.

    From these, Chris has deduced her Lamaism conspiracy theory, which essentially concludes that there are no redeeming qualities in Tibetan Buddhism nor in Tibetan culture.

    However, I would like to simply observe 3 more facts: 1. There are abusive Christian leaders, Moslem leaders, Jewish leaders, Hindu leaders etc.; 2. World history is full of episodes of trouble, abuses of power, repression of the poor, atrocities, wars etc. Pick your Western culture, not one is exempt.; and 3. No world culture can say that they have rid themselves of the tendencies which have caused those atrocities. Blind faith is practiced in all religions, power represses throughout the world still etc. etc.

    What makes Tibetans the bad guys in all of this? In my understanding of the world, things just aren’t that absolute. Your theory is too simplistic, Chris, too black and white.


  328. As usual, the smug neophytes of the fringe thought control of Tibetan lamaism ASSUME, as always, who other people are, what their experience and knowledge is, and smugly pose as the superior moral ones. I have had 30 years of this smug arrogance that Tibetan Lamaism breeds, I know it far more intimately than you , as a fringe member and programmed recruiter for them will ever know. You have been programmed to remain on the outer perimeter, and be happy and delusion there while spreading the world. It is what makes western Tibetan Lamaists so dangerous,, their assumptions, that they are the moral ones, that they are the dispensers of the true faith, that only they understand Tibetan Lamaism,and believe they are getting the ‘pinnacle of buddhism’, you are a religious fanatic Joanne, no more, spreading the disease of a thought control religion, put out to recruit for the Lamas, the pathos of your role for them, even after experiencing the sexual abuse rampant in their cult, yet still programmed to protect and recruit for them, to create a mirage, a camouflage for their continuous deceits, you continue to go every few weeks to your seminars and ‘teachings’ by the Lamas? Right? , these ‘reprogramming” events so that you never have an original thought in your head ever again, or ever notice the sycophantic coterie of slavish obsequiousness all around these primitive clerics, or the a master slave paradigm all around you, you “assume”you are the lucky one’ and everyone else is ignorant and misfortune, like all religious fanatics do, and from your vicarious and superior western lamaist delusion, that they create for you,over and over every time you are in their ‘radiant presence’ of thought control, you smugly reappear in the world again, pitying those that don’t have your good fortune, determined to spread the Lama miasma whenever you get a chance. You are a tool of the Lamas , no more. a thought slave to a medieval, repressive cleric system, being massively reproduced in the west, to believe slavery and devotion for life to these lamas is ‘freedom’ just as the monks and nuns who are setting themselves on fire believe and are told, by these lamas, that these are ‘bodhisattvas” and their violent actions on streets in Tibet is not really violence even though passerbys including children are being traumatized by these actions of violence’, witnessing these acts. and you too believe that you are living a superior lifestyle as you are programmed to live a half-life in the world. rejecting your own culture, which is what they want and are systematically here to do, so that you can be ’emptied out’ to be massively indoctrinated into this primitive, misogynistic repressive religion, while calling it ‘secular ethics” the new mask the Dalai Lama is wearing to fool the west. It is you Joanne that are now part of condemning the human race, to a life time of austerity like in Old Tibet, and yet you are actually proud of that, that is what the Lamas role in the west is, to get the masses to accept this, by enabling these lamas to get a foothold in the world, the Mind Life Institute is a front for Lamaism and the likes of Lamas like Sogyal Rinpoche, who has spoken on their panels and the level of their mind control is that you see nothing wrong in supporting this pseudo-scientific bullshit, and you can ‘proselytise’ for this psychology cult arm of Lamaism without even a blimp in your stream of mind control by the the Lamas. . The Mind Life Institute is a front for Tibetan Lamas and their cult, It is no more science than mesmerism or phrenology was in the 19th century. But don’t let me disturb you in your bubble of moral smugness and superiority that Tibetan Lamaism is so good at reinforcing in the slaves it produces, slaves that believe they are superior and free. So glad there were a few protesting loudly outside this event. Next year it will be hundreds, and the year after that? Thousands, as more and more people wake up to who these lamas really are and what they are really doing here. That’s when you will really need a ‘therapist’ and healing. When your fragile bubble bursts.


  329. DI, the problem with Hegel is that his philosophy emerges from a static environment. That is, he and the philosophers which he based his ideas on, gained a few impressions of Tibetan Buddhism from a brief exposure and then built a philosophical response.

    Compare that to the Indian philosophical tradition where non-Buddhists engaged in many hours of debate with Buddhists. You will see reflections of that in the writings of such Indian scholars as Nagarjuna and Shantideva, where they address important objections from the non-Buddhists, such as whether or not emptiness means “nothingness” (or nihilism) or whether or not Tantra or the Mahayana are legitimate teachings of the Buddha.

    And even within the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, where there were few non-Buddhists, a strong tradition of debate emerged within the monastic institutions. And of course, Tibetan Buddhists studied the Indian scholars and so were well versed in the classic debates between Buddhists and non-Buddhists– and those debates within Buddhist traditions.

    As far as I can see, the term Lamaism is simply a means of cultural denigration, based on ignorance and cultural bias. It has nothing to do with anything that can be discussed in real ways, nothing whatsoever to do with Buddhist scriptures or practice. For example, as Sankhappa knows, the Buddha himself revered every teacher he had, bowing to them etc.– he even revered a teacher who gave him just a sentence of the Dharma. So revering teachers can’t be “Lamaism”.

    And then things just get problematic and then the discussion is all about Sogyal again– but even the Buddha acknowledged that there would be charlatans– even other religions have their troublesome leaders– so that can’t be lamaism either– this whole deal about Lamaism is really “silly ism” as far as I can see.

    And the discussion about Tantra is simply based on complete ignorance, amongst people who have never studied tantra. Yes, Hinduism has a tantric practice. However, if you studied Buddhist tantra, you would know that what CLEARLY distinguishes it from Hinduism is the cultivation of bodhicitta and the wisdom of emptiness. Buddhist tantra cannot be practiced without those two and they are not Hindu perspectives. It is that simple.

    So all of this is simply based on ignorance, ignorance.


  330. No Chris, I chose to not let a few misbehaving lamas ruin my chances at practicing Buddhism. I had found a jewel in Tibetan Buddhism and so I kept at it and found my healing within that treasure. On the other hand, it appears to me that the lamas who have mistreated you have won– they have turned you away from your chances for true healing, turned you away from Buddhist study and practice.

    You know so very very little about Tibetan Buddhism and yet you pose as the expert, as one who can condemn an entire religious tradition. I am confident that you– LIKE HEGEL–have not studied any of the major treatises written by the Indian Buddhist masters upon which the Tibetan tradition is based. I am confident that you not studied more than one or two, if any, of the Tibetan Buddhist commentaries on these treatises. I am confident that you have not read many, if any, of the Buddhist sutras. I am confident that you have not read any of the histories of Tibet written by mainstream, peer-reviewed historians, nor read any of the Dalai Lama’s autobiographies or commentaries on Tibetan history. I am confident that you have never listened to a teaching by the Dalai Lama nor listened to a Mind and Life conferences.

    Yet you have condemned all of these completely. How can you sit in judgment about matters about which you know absolutely nothing?


  331. As for the Tibetan people, which ones? the ones that are still burning themselves up for nothing for these sick lamas, so evil, so selfish that they don’t even bother to tell these poor monks and nuns that Free Tibet is over, that the lamas are all building their monasteries in China again and have been since the 80’s? And have now moved on to the Green movement? So which Tibetan people do you mean, the ones that the Dalai Lama continues to enslave mentally, or the ones that have moved on from this superstitious lamaism? Which one’s Joanne? the cartoon character Tibetan people that the western lamaists want to believe in, that the Lamas have created, to keep in their fantasy projections , the two dimensional fanatasy Tibetan people or the flesh and blood Tibetan people, just like you and me, who by the way, when they get in touch with what these Lamas have done to them, keeping them enslaved as weavers and sellers of trinkets and rugs in Dharmasala, while the Dalai Lama and his same family of ‘aristocrats’ continue now to hoard all the billions collected from the west over the last 60 years, all money that could have actually educated the Tibetans in Exile, but instead kept them in superstitious mumbo jumbo for their GOD KING even in exile? Whose the rascist then? You? Me? The Dalai Lama? Get you head out of those fables the Lamas have fed you for decades and start using your western intelligence again, before its too late, Then you can help the Tibetan people by freeing youself from Lamaism and being a role model for them.


  332. ” Ultimately, the trouble is within ourselves.”

    That is what they want you to remain, ‘victims’ that go away , licking your wounds, blaming yourself, Bullshit. These are misogynistic clerical tyrants that enslaved their own people for a thousand years, and that you can’t see that still Joanne, is because they have warped your mind, and heart to be a victim, forever. Thats what they want, that is their mind control, that is how they use the teachings of the buddha and the notion of karma, it is how the ALL of them justified keeping their own people in semistarvation, while they hoarded all the wealth for a thousand years, hoarded the food, taxed them for everything, birth taxes, death taxes, giving up their family members , sons , as taxes for massive monasticism , 30 percent of the male population was put into this cleric system to serve the Lamas, they kept consorts many for their higher tantric practices, often as young as 10 yeas old. An outcast girl was best , in their ‘higher practices’ They are not ‘buddhists’ they have nothing to do with the buddhist teachings they are a scourge on the earth that has fooled the west, and has cause suffering in the west, along with all the the other cults. You haven’t even gotten in touch with the depth of your being fooled, you are afraid to, so you ‘jumped right into another lama situation’ a common response, because if you ever get in touch with how you have been duped, the pain and anger you will have to really face, will be too scary, so you want to remain a ‘therapeutic patient’ maybe you could go to one of the lamas psychologist cult members to help you recover.

    No Joanne, I am out , all the way out, when and if you come ‘all the way out’ you and I can have a real conversation, I am not a victim anymore of their sick mind control.


  333. Chris, what I’m getting at, what I am talking about, is how to work with trauma. I think you and I share something in this regard. I believe that we both come from experiences with lamas that were traumatic. I believe that we both put our hearts and souls into our beginnings with Buddhism– and we both had those hearts and souls ravaged.

    Where to go from here? It is my belief that healing can only occur in the quiet of personal reflection. Ultimately, the trouble is within ourselves. That is the core of the Buddha’s teaching. We choose to leave or stay with a lama– but it is the work on ourselves that matters, nothing else. It is healing that matters, not how many lamas we can accuse.

    It is my belief, (and this is what I have received from the Buddha’s teachings), that true spiritual growth occurs when we stop blaming others and start the work of ourselves, our own spiritual calming and progress. It is the Buddha himself who puts loving kindness and compassion at the center of that healing and progress. This is my lama ultimately, no one else.

    I am not saying that we shouldn’t speak out against wrongs, but I think there’s a balance needed. I am simply observing that you appear to be shouting yourself hoarse and losing your quiet, losing your compassion, losing your perspective.

    I personally cannot spend too much time ranting and raving about the abuses of others until I can stand beside myself and say that I am healed and that I am truly becoming a better person. This is what I am trying to say to you when I ask you to be quiet for a moment and think about the Tibetan people you are accusing of so many atrocities and about their suffering– think about your own compassionate heart. Please.


  334. You have again distorted what Chris wrote. You are confusing a ruling clerical elite with the people of Tibet. Read what she said and stop this emotional bullying.

    There was the usual handful of about 4 people protesting outside, shouting themselves hoarse and then the usual joyful mob inside, embracing values of human kindness and compassion./blockquote>

    usual handful of about 4 people protesting outside, shouting themselves hoarse

    joyful mob inside,

    Did you mean to use the word mob?

    Simply stop and address the issue….LAMAISM


  335. And as for “documentation” such as Hegel’s very poor understanding of Buddhism,

    No Joanne his as confirmed by Buddhists from Taiwan got it right, Tibetans were not Buddhists at all but Lamaists. Now you set yourself up against one of the world’s greatest philosophers. No this idea that Lamaism=Buddhism is a very recent invention

    the strategy on DI goes something like this: Only those with a limited or non-existent understanding of Buddhism are allowed to post about whether or not Tibetan Buddhism is “Lamaism” or instead, a legitimate Buddhist tradition.

    No you can comment all you like on the subject here as it is pertinent to the thread. Your problem before was you wanted bring in religion into a discussion on cultism. If you go off on a tangent we will remove from here, but you are free to defend your view that TB=Buddhism -Lamaism.

    Anyone who has any understanding of Buddhism in general or Tibetan Buddhism in particular is restricted from informing the readership of the real state of affairs– this is done under the supposed ban DI has against discussing religion.

    No need to cry persecution you go ahead and give evidence for your view we are waiting with baited breath!


  336. Chris, I want to simply remind you that the Tibetan people are human beings with feelings, with hopes, fears, wishes and dreams. They are a good people, no worse no better than any other culture of people. A people with a warm sense of humor and a love of their children and tsampa and tea. They are currently facing the darkest hour of their history. I appeal to the human being in you to stop for just a minute form your tirade and reflect on that simple fact, on the humanness of the people you are maligning.

    Recently, I attended a teaching with the Dalai Lama in New York. There was the usual handful of about 4 people protesting outside, shouting themselves hoarse and then the usual joyful mob inside, embracing values of human kindness and compassion.

    However, there were Tibetans in the line in front of me as we passed the protestors and I noticed particularly the pain on their faces in response to the abusive chanting of the protestors. The Dalai Lama and their religion are deeply important and very precious to the Tibetan people. Tirades such as yours are silly and clearly based on ignorance, but they cause real pain to a people already suffering. I find your lack of sensitivity in this regard to be disturbing and I call on you to simply stop and reflect for a moment if this is who you really are.


  337. What we are saying explicitly is that you are an enabler of Sogyal even though you claim you want to out him. This is because you have become involved with the Hindu priestly caste of Lamaism masquerading as Buddhism.


  338. And as for “documentation” such as Hegel’s very poor understanding of Buddhism, the strategy on DI goes something like this:

    Only those with a limited or non-existent understanding of Buddhism are allowed to post about whether or not Tibetan Buddhism is “Lamaism” or instead, a legitimate Buddhist tradition.

    Anyone who has any understanding of Buddhism in general or Tibetan Buddhism in particular is restricted from informing the readership of the real state of affairs– this is done under the supposed ban DI has against discussing religion.


  339. Tibetan Lamas are the racists, they believe and teach to their students that they are above the human realm which is only considered a ‘springboard’ realm, i.e. the human realm, and only if you slavishly devote yourselves to these avatar lamas, these ‘precious ones on thrones’ prostrating to them and giving up all you wealth and your ego TO THEM , life time after lifetime.can you escape it into ‘enlightenment’ i.e. nirvana and transcending the human realm. . It is Hindustani Braminism, YOU are conflating, over and over to dismiss , as you are programmed to do, what is being said.

    Lamas referred to their own people, whom they abandoned to the Chinese, when they escaped with all their wealth, as “tallking animals”,Lama apologists are always conflating the Tibetan people, whom they also idealize as very special , non violent, and cartoonish, with the Lamas, they always seem toconfuse the two, i.e Lamas and the Tibetan people. This is like confusing Goldman Sachs with the American people. Only Lama apologists, who jump into the fire with the Dalai Lama and can’t notice that he is supporting and enabling the very predator lama, Sogyal, that they have exposed on this site, NO MATTER WHAT IS PUT UP On this site that documents this. That is the power of thought control and programming of Lamaism and why they have been protected for decades, by the very people that have been whistle blowing about the so-called ‘exceptions.”. IT’s called ‘compartmentalizing’ a common defense in thought controlled cult members.


  340. DI says explicitly, “TB=Lamaism”.

    Implicitly, he is saying, (along with other contributors on these threads): “My perspective, culture, religion and race are superior and absolutely true=I have the right to malign and disparage an entire race, culture and religion, about which I know very little.”



    “For Tibet and the World” That’s how they see Lerab Ling, the New world religion that will quell the masses into a complete stupor.

    the opening address by Sogyal , in which he thanks Theosophy for bringing this creeping scourge of misogyny , sexual abuse, kleptocracy and medieval superstition and HIndstani caste system regression on the world.

    But Tibetan Lamaist apologists, even though they went through the ringer with Sogyal, DONT NOTICE who is here celebrating with Sogyal the predator!!

    ALL of the celebrity Lamas and the neoliberal political corporatocracy that would like to recreate simpler times for them, when the peasants didn’t think at all. Tibetan Lamaism apologists= Patsies

    Amazing, but that is the power of ‘thought control’ in a cult.


  342. While it is definitely true that these tantric practices can be abused by charlatans in all traditions– and they are abused–this is not unique to Tibetan Buddhism. Sexual abuse occurs in Zen, Theravada, Tibetan Buddhism, Judiism, all branches of Christianity, Islam…
    Yes and only in Tibetan Buddhism a.k.a. Lamaism does the controlled media of our western corporatocracy protect Tibetan coverage of these scandals, and protects the western citizenship from being critically intelligent, questioning everything as the Buddha exhorted us to do, and cover up and distort every pedophilia, sexual abuse of women , financial abuse and CIA MI6 , idiotic Theosophy rooted, lama obsessed wealthy patron , since the days of Madame Blavatsky, and the colonial British bohemians, who tried to find Shangri Lai by channeling a Tibetan Lama, and whom Sogyal R, the darling money maker for Tibetan Lamaism’s empire building and ‘colonization of the west” THANKED for bringing Rigpa to powerful heights , with the same idiots in the audience that brought us Red Shambhala, and Nazi expeditions, i.e. totalitarianism’s religious favorite always, The Tibetan Lamas.
    Lama apologists DONT read history , not their own, or anyone elses, they value Emotional Intelligence, and non-critical faith in Avatars brought to earth and the west by Helene Blavatsky. That’s who they should put on the top of the Lamas lineage tree in the West.
    The colonialists Are the Tibetan Lamas, and they have their useful idiots

    Forgot to fill in the delails, never one to cringe away from cowards


  343. These are esoteric and advanced practices, completely beyond the scope of these stupid discussions here.

    One notes the dismissive and superior attitude expressed here.
    However, what Joanne has missed is that TB=Lamaism is in reality an import of priestly Hinduism and advanced practices are nothing but abusive sexual practices and a left over from Hinduism. They are totally anti women and as we have shown are so imbedded that Joanne will not be able to affect change in Sogyal’s operations till she gets real about that.
    I was stupid while I was influenced by you!


  344. And I would like to observe that these writings which DI is now posting come from a time in human history when the perspectives of Western “scholars” were skewed by cultural superiority. They came from a colonial, missionary-style orientation. Much of Chris Chandler’s perspective is also skewed in this way.


  345. Yes, Dan, that is true. Tantra did not originate in Tibet, but in India and came to Tibet many centuries later. That is fact. What people completely miss here on DI is that the debate about tantra has been going on for centuries now and has nothing whatsoever to do with Tibetan Buddhism. The debate is between the Theravada and Mahayana branches of Buddhism and also between the different schools of Mahayana. For example, scholars have been analyzing the writings of such early Indian scholars as Nagarjuna and Aryadeva in order to ascertain if they taught on tantra.

    Yes, tantra has skillful means in which desire is taken on the path. There are practices in which sexual desire can be used for powerful transformation in tantric practice. Anger can also be used. These are esoteric and advanced practices, completely beyond the scope of these stupid discussions here.

    While it is definitely true that these tantric practices can be abused by charlatans in all traditions– and they are abused–this is not unique to Tibetan Buddhism. Sexual abuse occurs in Zen, Theravada, Tibetan Buddhism, Judiism, all branches of Christianity, Islam…. Sexual predators will pervert their religions to suit their ends. This is not unique to Tibetan Buddhism. It is unique to human nature.

    Nobody who is leading the crusade on “Lamaism” has absolutely any understanding of this– as Dan so succinctly observes.


  346. Things are a little more complicated than that, given that we are creatures with sexual drives, whether we seek Enlightenment or just expensive cars. You can’t leave your desires behind just because you leave your wife. There’s a lot more to it than that. I’d like the pure Buddhists to please stand up and introduce yourselves.
    PS: Buddhist tantra = Vajrayâna originated in India and from there went to Tibet, China and Japan. It’s not a Tibetan innovation.


  347. There is no sexual teaching in Buddha teaching because Buddha Sakyamuni Himself gave up His wife.


  348. There are millions of Lamaists around the world currently, this historical fact will surely demolish their Buddhist future life and dreams; presumably, most Lamaistic adherents have chosen Buddhism to be their religion to start with, but not Lamaism!

    Can I suggest an alternative formula?
    Buddhism – Lamaism/Tantric Buddhism = B, so that those who try to remain as pure Buddhists will certainly avoid the sexual tantra practice.

    Every Buddhist knows very well, Buddha Sakyamuni had never propagated “sexual Tantrism” in His teachings. It only exists in Tibetan Tantrism, or more properly, Lamaism, yet under the guise of Buddhism.

    It is very good of you to have this fact disclosed to the general public!


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