The Visit of His Holiness the Dalai Lama to Lerab Ling 2008

“The  Usual Patronage Seeking of the Wealthy and Powerful by Lamaism while the Dalai Lama continues turning a Blind Eye to Sogyal’s Abuse,”

…or in plain English an endorsement of the person and work of Sogyal?
http://www.lerabling.org/index.php/lang-en/lerab-ling-mainmenu-50/the-temple/film-footage-of-his-holiness-the-dalai-lamas-visit-in-2008

Just watch this video with an open mind? Does the DL seem at all worried by the activities of Sogyal? Sogyal is the Master of Ceremonies, he knows he has got away with it and is like the cat with the cream. The Westerners are in trance and are like Catholics used to be like in front of their clergy, totally subservient.
We will add further responses to this video over the next few days. It is part of our Lamaism series and is slowly trying to get people to come to their senses!

The    ‘censoring’ of Sogyal Rinpoche, Tibetan Lamaist style. … “

This video of the Ceremony and the unctuous behaviour of these lamas in regard to power is revealing. We note the fawning obsequiousness in the presence of people of power. This is a celebrity and power trip particularly in regard to Carla Bruni the wife of former President Sarkozy. Listen to Sogyal telling the Dalai Lama, after he comes into Lerab Ling about all the politicians, ecumenical leaders and actors – it is quite distasteful.

As a former Lamaist put it:

“The Gold Statue or Giant  Gold Leaf Statue  (Rupa) of the Buddha is monstrous. It is DISGUSTING, Grotesque Spiritual Materialism in its worst form. The DL’s and Sogyal’s phoney humility while unctuously catering to power.  I think that film sums up who these Lamas really are. That they would cater to Sogyal who literally looks like Toad of Toad Hall with no dignity, just groveling. Then he goes ‘backstage’ to his western women groupies after all his groveling and phoney humility.   Lerab Ling must have costs many many millions to build!   All hidden finances, no one knows anything about their finances in these countries,  they report to no one and are not accountable.”

1.   Double Binding the Victims of Sogyal :

What the Dalai lama says:

“If a teacher’s actions are unethical, then, even if they have practiced for many years,  their practice has been wrong-footed. Quite simply,  they lack a proper understanding of the Dharma.  There is a gap between the Dharma and their life.”
–Dalai Lama
There sure is!

2.  This film reflects the extreme power imbalance between the victims of Sogyal abuse and the wealth and power structures Lamaism has created around Rigpa and  Sogyal to protect him. One of the main ‘defenses’ of the pro-Lamaist, pro-Dalai Lamaists on DI has been that the Dalai Lama has to remain  ‘neutral’ and not take sides.

“Is this an example of the Dalai Lama remaining neutral re: Sogyal’s behaviour, and not taking sides?”

We give a link here to a series of absolutely beautiful photograph albums by the photographer Jurek Shreiner. They show Sogyal in a familial relaxed environment of acceptance and as a familiar at home Lama amongst his peers. He is someone to be emulated not avoided. Beautiful pics and evidence of the cosy cartel of LAMAISM.

http://www.fluidr.com/photos/jurekschreiner/sets

154 Responses

  1. Reblogged this on beluga424.

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  2. China states publicly, on its central government webpage, that it supports Tibetan Buddhism fully. It doesn’t make much sense to worry about a leading Buddhist monk for supporting Buddhism (of course a monk will support it), when Xi Jinping, the leader of a nuclear superpower, the president of a nation of 1.4 billion people, is on record publicly supporting this religion. The Dalai Lama doesn’t even live in the home of Tibetan Buddhism. He is a refugee. Xi Jinping, on the other hand, lives in the home of Tibetan Buddhism: China. (This is Xi’s position). This powerful world leaders support his nations native religions, including Tibetan Buddhism; he supports it physically, financially, politically, and socially. He has not outlawed it. He appears publicly with the highest Tibetan Buddhist figure within Tibet: the Panchen Lama. This despite the fact that the Panchen Lama is also supported as a follower of Dorje Shugden. So by the standards of this forum, that would be sort of a double-cult.

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  3. “Freedom of religious belief of all ethnic groups in Tibet is respected and protected, says the white paper “Sixty Years Since Peaceful Liberation of Tibet” which was issued Monday by the Information Office of the State Council.
    It says that all religions and religious sects are equal in Tibet.
    On Tibet’s dominant religion, Tibetan Buddhism, the paper says that the Living Buddha reincarnation system, unique to Tibetan Buddhism, is fully respected.”

    Considering the above you are saying that China has given lamas of Tibetan Buddhism free reign to keep its citizens in bondage? The slogan ‘Free Tibet’ is senseless, just another lie when one understands the cultic religious beliefs.

    It is another lie to say that China is responsible for Tibetan Buddhist occult practices.

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  4. The root of Tibetan Buddhism is in Tibet, which the Chinese government says is part of China. The Chinese government continues to support, and export, Tibetan Buddhism; in fact, it makes countless millions or more each year off of promoting this religion (however shallowly). Why waste time flailing at exiles? If you have a problem with Tibetan Buddhism, address it at its topmost level of authority: the government of the People’s Republic of China.

    Here is what the government states about its current views on Tibetan Buddhism:

    “Freedom of religious belief of all ethnic groups in Tibet is respected and protected, says the white paper “Sixty Years Since Peaceful Liberation of Tibet” which was issued Monday by the Information Office of the State Council.

    It says that all religions and religious sects are equal in Tibet.

    On Tibet’s dominant religion, Tibetan Buddhism, the paper says that the Living Buddha reincarnation system, unique to Tibetan Buddhism, is fully respected.

    Moreover, people are free to learn and debate Buddhist doctrines, get ordained as monks and practice Buddhist rites, it says.

    The central government has listed some famous religious sites as cultural relics units that are under government protection, including the Potala Palace, Jokhang Monastery, and Tashilhunpo, Drepung, Sera and Sakya monasteries, it says.

    Tibet now has more than 1,700 venues for religious activities, and about 46,000 monks and nuns, while more than one million worshipers make pilgrimage to Lhasa each year, according to the white paper.

    At the same time, ethnic culture in Tibet is enjoying unprecedented prosperity, the paper says, adding that the central and regional governments always attach great importance to carrying on, protecting and developing Tibetan culture.

    The study, use and development of the Tibetan language are protected by law, and the Tibetan script has become the first ethnic-minority script in China that has international text coding standards for information exchange, it says.

    The government has altogether apportioned 1.45 billion yuan (224 million U.S. dollars) to maintain and repair the Potala Palace, the Norbulingka and Sakya Monastery, and other cultural relics and historical sites, according to the document.”

    http://english.gov.cn/2011-07/11/content_1903965.htm

    Tibetan Buddhism, at least publicly, has the full support of the government of the People’s Republic of China. This is a nation, mind you, which forbids countless Christian denominations within China.

    Why not ask President Xi why he meets publicly with the Panchen Lama? Or why he has visited and supported countless monasteries? Or why he has thrown his weight into exporting Tibetan Buddhism to the west?

    This is the leader of a superpower we’re talking about here, not the Dalai Lama, who is not even the leader of his own school but simply a prominent figure within that school. The leader of the superpower from which the religion originates holds the ultimate responsibility.

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  5. The Dalai Lama is not the leader of Tibetan Buddhism. It is a common misconception.

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  6. Correction “Unity Church, ‘funded’ by the Fellowship through the Three Swallows Foundation, who also finances many other Fundamentalists right wing groups, and the Unity Church , a ‘liberal front’ of HIndui/Buddhist/ New Age Christianity, for the United Religious Movement whose stated goal is to create a One World Religion for the Global Future through the U.N.

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  7. To the Stalker:

    http://shiftmovement.com/luminaries/tenzin-robert-thurman/

    Robert Thurman, ‘scholar’ and Tibet expert and head of the Dalai Lamas empire in the U.S. Robert Thurman a ‘luminary’ in the Shift Network, the biggest huskster, spiritually materialistic apocalyptic bullshit, sucking in people through the internet and started by Barbara Marx Hubbard and Steve Dinan. Steve Dinan also Esalen New Age huckster, and wrote for the Moonies Newspaper.

    NEW AGE Chrisitianity , right and left, connected with Lamaism and New Age Theosophy whom Sogyal Rinpoche thanks for bringing LAmaism to the world. and Unity Church, Unity Church founded by the Fellowship through the Three Swallows Foundation of Paul Temple of the Right wing Christian Dominionist Church ,Christian Dominionists and Barabara Marx Hubbard , right and left nutcases all in a bundle, and Robert Thurman, Dalai Lama frontman in the states all in a knot..

    Read it and weep “Stalker”, you have been massively duped. .

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  8. Give us a break Joanne you only seem to want to dispence with Chris’s existence. Study Pavlov’s dogs

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  9. “DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE

    since the group has an absolute or totalist vision of truth, those who
    are not in the group are bound up in evil, are not enlightened, are not
    saved, and do not have the right to exist
    “being verses nothingness”
    impediments to legitimate being must be pushed away or destroyed
    one outside the group may always receive their right of existence by
    joining the group…” Lifton

    Chris, did you or did you not say that you wish that “Lamaists” and “Islamists” destroy each other? Do you believe that all those you accuse deserve to exist?

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  10. There is far too much emphasis and pressure on people to get with the ‘programme’.

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  11. Open your eyes and see! The white is the background the black is the print! There is no need for you to confuse yourself!

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  12. Do you not think it is a bit devilish of you Joanne to make comments on Dialogue Ireland who make people aware of cultic groups, Tibetan Buddhism being one of them, spouting about and defending your Dalai Lama when he is the leader of this cult and shuts his eyes to atrocities happening in his name? Cop on to yourself!

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  13. IF they manage to translate (and remember, they are the ones translating whatever the teachings are so it will probably take the life of the next generation to get there as I’m sure they will be yakking about it for a long time) in the meantime they ‘PUT INTO ACTION’ Hindu sexual abusive ritualistic practices as you well know. Joanne, get off the stage. You have nothing to offer!

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  14. Live out your life in your shade of grey tweaking your brain now and then to fool yourself that you sit at the feet of your ‘messiah’ who does not recognise abuse when it stares him in the face. The day I succumb to the likes of that will be the day I give up my GOD GIVEN freedom. I was blessed Joanne to see through it all.

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  15. I suppose you think you are blessed with ‘knowledge’ that explains it all and quite willing to accept the grey. That ‘religion’ you follow practices the most manipulative techniques know to humankind. Follow the blind Joanne. You seem Hell-bent on doing that. Just don’t even think you can change my mind and thousands like me.

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  16. I know it’s all there “in black and white” for you, Angie. That is my main objection. The world is only black and white for children.

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  17. He is, more than likely, choosing which child’s body he will possess when he is dead! How sick is that?

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  18. Do you still believe the Dalai Lama is as innocent as he makes himself out to be? The article puts it very nicely; however, THIS IS WHAT CHRIS HAS BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG! Very ambitious wouldn’t you say of Sogyal and DL wanting to take over, not only the religions but secular minds as well? He is nothing but a cult leader and if you cannot see how it serves them you are blind!

    Even in death he wants control!
    Dalai Lama, EMANATION

    “In 2011, the Dalai Lama warned of potential political meddling in the search for his reincarnation after his death. But he said he could instead manifest himself as “an emanation” in another body while still alive, and such an emanation would be recognisable though “karma and prayers” or even through his direct blessing.”

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  19. Joanne

    Read this.
    http://www.viewmagazine.org/index.php/articles/tibet/145-serving-the-dalai-lamas-vision-the-tenzin-gyatso-institute.html

    Everything in this article points to the truth of what Chris’s comments. Please refrain from asking stupid questions. There is nothing worse than ignorance. If you want the answer go back and read Chris’s comments. I understand that you have a mental block when you are under undue influence, however, I will say again if you really want to know where Chris stands you will have to go back and read her commends again with a clear mind rather than automatically jumping to the DL’s defense.

    Tibetan Scholars’ PROGRAMME

    A selected group of Tibetan scholars, both monks and nuns, will be brought to the United States and offered a series of specially designed courses in disciplines such as philosophy, psychology, neuroscience AND WORLD RELIGIONS.

    As the Dalai Lama puts it, “They aim at nothing short of bringing about a RADICAL TRANSFORMATION in our THINKING, and, through it, our way of life.” Time and again, experience has shown the prodigious POTENTIAL OF THESE TEACHINGS to have a vital EFFECT ON SOCIETY, IF they can be translated and PUT INTO ACTION. The Institute will develop ways to make them AVAILABLE to the WIDEST POSSIBLE AUDIENCE, and SPECIFICALLY to LEADERS from business, GOVERNMENT, EDUCATION, the arts and the HELPING professions. His Holiness at once gave his ENTHUSIASTIC support to the application of this kind of training in the SECULAR world.

    “These three projects have tremendous importance, not only in the sphere of Dharma and spirituality, but as a unique initiative to create a kind of convergence between MODERN SECULAR SCIENCE and the age-old tradition of Dharma.” In order to take these three projects to the next stage, a DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMMES is gathering pace on the land in New York State, to CREATE the most ideal and inspiring setting for gatherings and seminars. Due for completion in 2010, this will include an exciting new meeting space and accommodation, with views of the unspoilt beauty of the Catskill Mountains.

    it did served to highlight how the aspirations and actions of lifetimes were ripening, intertwining Tertön Sogyal and the thirteenth DALAI LAMA, SOGYAL Rinpoche and His Holiness, AND TIBETwith THE WIDER WORLD. As Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche remarked: “The VISION OF SOGYAL Rinpoche and the blessings of His Holiness the DALAI LAMA coming together is very powerful DYNAMITE.”

    It’s all there in black and white Joanne. Make an effort to use the brain you have.

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  20. You see, the main allegation being leveled at HH Dalai Lama on these threads is the fact that he hasn’t ostracized Sogyal and the Rigpa community. However, many scholars of Cultic groups believe that ostracizing groups actually puts members at greater risk for harm.

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  21. For example, whenever I investigate your allegations, I find out that they are either baseless slander or outright lies. The result is that my respect for HH Dalai Lama has actually increased– and my concern for your state of mind has increased as well.

    Because you have no commitment to telling the truth. And what about your commitment to basic kindness? Have you always been someone who could tolerate vicious slander such as what was done to Tenzin Peljor? You shout, “Lamaist!” And then the person is no longer human, no longer deserving of basic human decency. These behaviors look like lynch mobs and hate campaigns. They are repellent and that is why I wonder if you are compromising your better self?

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  22. Chris, in much of the reading I have been doing on Cultic groups, there is talk of how individuals compromise their ethical selves in order to be members of the group. This was my experience in some dysfunctional Tibetan Buddhist groups I was part– I lost my better self, learned to turn my back on lies and unkind behaviors– and to ignore my inner conscience. I have written about this on this site.

    Ex-NKT members speak of this as well. And I wonder about your deceit on these conversations– your willingness to lie in order to get your point across at all costs and your strange lack of transparency about your own loyalties. I wonder if that could indicate a connection with unhealthy group dynamics– that you are compromising yourself?

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  23. Chris I believe at thispoint silence is golden. Joanne wilfully diverts and is now on a throne as Queen Troll.

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  24. Chris, I know you don’t like the Dalai Lama– but what does that have to do with my being a cult follower, simply because I have reasons to respect him?

    And why have you never said that Geshe Kelsang is a Lamaist cult leader? That the NKT is a Lamaist cult? Mike tells us that this is your point of view, but there is not one comment from you that even suggests you hold that opinion. If you can’t come clean about your loyalties, how can you expect to be listened to?

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  25. The Intertwined connections of the Dalai Lama and Sogyal (r)inpoche:

    http://www.viewmagazine.org/index.php/articles/tibet/145-serving-the-dalai-lamas-vision-the-tenzin-gyatso-institute.html

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  26. Dalai lama sites that support Sogyal Rinpoche NOW and promote his programs and host him STILL, thus ensuring his abuse will continue, and that Tantric Sexual abuse of females in these Lama centers will continue.
    Here is one of the Dalai Lama’s center in Australia hosting Sogyal in 2013:

    Dalai Lama In Australia: Has Seven other affiliated sites:

    Australia Captial Territory; New So Wales’ Queensland; So Australia; Tasmania, Victoria and Western Australia.

    So Dalai Lama , in Australia supports the alleged sexual abuser of 100’s of women throughout Sogyal’s many centers.

    HE IS PROMOTING HIM. not remaining silent like the Dalai Lamaists keep saying he is doing. HE IS PROMOTING HIM. ENABLING HIM, PROTECTING HIM because if they don’t, then their whole corrupt, sexual tantric exploitative cult posing as Buddhism will be exposed. The Dalai Lama is a liar, a hypocrite, and a deceiver -while telling others to report abuse in their sanghas, he makes sure that the reports will be useless, as he continues to enable and protect the sexual abusers in Tantric Lamaism.

    http://www.dalailamainaustralia.org/news/detail.aspx?ArticleID=391

    So Dalai Lama Centers , in Australia supports the alleged sexual abuser of 100’s of women throughout Australia. I am sure all the 100s of other affiliated Dalai Lama centers are doing the same, just as all the other Lama sects are doing the same.

    Again, the Dalai Lama is SUPPORTING Sogyal, through his hosting him at his centers, not remaining silent at all. Just as he is not remaining silent about the 123 monks and nuns that have set themselves on fire, He supports and enables it by calling it great acts of a bodhisattva.

    The Dalai Lama is creates confusion and doublespeak for all Tibetan LAmaists in all the Tibetan Lama sanghas, that is what he is purposely doing, like all leaders of a cult. They all do it.

    HE IS PROMOTING HIM. not remaining silent like the Dalai Lamaists keep saying he is doing for all the imaginiary reasons they make up in their heads.

    . HE IS PROMOTING HIM. ENABLING HIM, PROTECTING HIM because , just like the rest of them, if who they really are (, a couples sexual tantric cult of Tantra for sexual energy for themselves, they use everyone for themselves and their own benefit) , and NOT Buddhism, is ever exposed their whole house of cards will fall apart. The thought controlled members in ALL these Sanghas are just that, thought controlled in a cult to never never never see ‘Behind the Thankas” If the Lamas , all of them, don’t protect and enable Sogyal, , then their whole corrupt, sexual tantric exploitative cult posing as Buddhism will be exposed. The Dalai Lama is a liar, a hypocrite, and a deceiver – he actually lies about everything, because in Tantra Vajrayana , lying, is not lying if it is promoting the spread of Tantric Vajrayana. So l while telling others to report abuse in their sanghas, he makes sure that the reports and allegations and whistle blowing will be useless, as he continues to enable and protect the sexual abusers like Sogyal, in Tantric Lamaism and gets all the lemmings fooled by him and Lamaism to be out , like on here, promoting enabling and supporting the sexual abuse , even when have been abused themselves.and or know of the abuse , they are this mentally thought controlled in these Lama cults.

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  27. Do you not see Joanne is that it is Chris you have issues with? You wait for her here like a dog with a bone. We established you disagree with each other. Agree to differ and as this is a hostile environment leave. You are making no contribution now.

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  28. Chris, I am still curious how you think I could be part of a cultic group when I am not part of any group at all? That is the mission of ICSA, to investigate psychologically unsafe practices WITHIN GROUPS. I am not part of any group, nor do I identify with any group. I am an exile– I emerge now and then from my rural hideaway in order to attend a Dalai Lama teaching– and then I run back home, sometimes in horror at some of the attitudes I encounter by fellow attendees.

    This is the truth. Unlike you, I have no secrets to hide about my life, no skeletons in my closet.

    The sole criteria you have used to accuse me of being a cult member is my respect for HH the Dalai Lama– and my dislike of extremist hate. Nowhere on ICSA’s huge database will you find “respect for another human being” or “anti-extremism” listed as a cultic trait– or even as a psychologically unsafe attitude.

    So I know you can yell “Cult cult” loudly, but can you ever enter into a reasoned discussion?

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  29. Never mind Mike, I found it.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-25116672

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  30. I hope you do connect with ICSA Joanne. What they do have , despite their ‘neutral stance’ on cults, is a probably good referral system of ‘cult-exit ‘ therapists”. Things are ‘impermanent” fortunately. Something might break through.

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  31. Can you put the link to this MIke?

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  32. Joanne says:

    ” I think I will probably look for less extremist venues for the time being, venues where readers won’t be subjected to a stream of vitriol in the comment line. ”

    This is really an amazing comment from you. You really don’t have any idea what you are saying or doing, do you? I should have added ‘projection’ of all aggression onto the ‘other’ to ward off any anxiety about one’s own compulsions and behavior, in order to maintain a delusional concept of self.

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  33. This came out Chris here in Ireland in regard to sexual abuse. Liam Adams the brother of Gerry Adams was sentenced to 16 years in prison in regard to these issues this week.

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  34. Yes better you move on as the people who we have on here needing help with the NKT do not need your links as you are only doing it to relativise the Rigpa issues. Yes go (exit 8).

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  35. Twenty years as a licensed certified social worker and family therapist working with sexual abuse led me to understand that , the very worst of the enablers were the mothers and sisters in a sexually abusive family system, They would come to court and testify on behalf of their (usually fathers) lying to themselves and lying under oath to the court, that the sexual abuse was not happening. Fortunately we have learned alot over the years about the female enablers in the system, the defenses they use, such as ‘identification with the aggressor’ to keep their place in the system, and to ward off any and all cognitive dissonance to keep their place in the ‘family intact’.

    That’s what the enablers remind me of regard this sexual abuse of the lamas, the most dysfunctional members of a disturbed group, who would rather be abused, or perpetuate the abuse by enabling it, than to confront uncomfortable truths. They throw their daughters and sisters ‘under the train’ instead.

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  36. Oh Bella B, aren’t you one of the enablers of the worst sexual abuse of women in a western sangha? Back on to give your two cents in protecting and encouraging more sexual abuse by these Lamas?

    Without the female enablers in any sexual abuse system it couldn’t exist. You are grease that makes the wheels turn.

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  37. And as for posting my article on DI, after giving it some thought, I think I will probably look for less extremist venues for the time being, venues where readers won’t be subjected to a stream of vitriol in the comment line. This madness and hate has simply spurred me on to act, time to act. Only way to counter extremism and hate is through strengthening the moderate, through strengthening reason-based approaches..

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  38. Sorry, Mike, I missed that part where Chris said that Geshe Kelsang is a Lamaist cult leader and that NKT is a Lamaist organization. Can you point to the comment where she said that?

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  39. weather HH Dalai Lama visited Rigpa before or after Behind the thankas blog was published is irrelevant, because the whole blog is just full of crap. I’m amazed people still refer to that pile of… !

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  40. For example, if I wrote a post exposing the troubles within the NKT (and I’ve just sent an extensive bibliography of academic sources on this subject to the ICSA)– would you post it?

    Yes in the NKT thread and category!

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  41. My point is that if you are unwilling to address the allegations of cultism in regard to the NKT, then aren’t you guilty of what you accuse me? Aren’t you guilty of blind, cultic loyalties?

    Joanne this what I wrote yesterday! I have been away all day today.

    Do feel free to go into the issues you have with the NKT but do not forget Sogyal! But do it under NKT category please.

    The first person who assisted me in regard to Sogyal also made me aware of the NKT. I told you we had a category on it but not to use the thread concerning the Visit of the DL ass it has no relevance to the subject. We have persons very much affected by this group,so you can post what you like there. However, you in reality believe that Chris is a closet NKT supporter. You don’t get it that she does not separate the NKT from Lamaism in general. Nor do I. However, by going on and on to tell her she is wrong is not a good move for a person who was about to leave our site for 7th time?

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  42. And it is fact that INFORM, over the past several years has received more enquiries about the NKT than about Scientology. In 2008, 2010 and 2011, they received more enquiries about NKT than about any other group (39, 28 and 20 enquiries respectively). In 2008, INFORM reported “A considerable amount of staff research time arose out of the enquiries about the New Kadampa Tradition, Mohan Singh and Mehdi Zand and the World of Yaad.”

    So this is only to say that where there is a lot of smoke, surely there might be need for investigation? On a site that poses as a venue for investigating cults?

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  43. And so, Mike, I am writing this article regardless of your response– To distribute to various sites. It’s time to break some of the insidious silence about the antics within NKT. Shall I include the fact that DI has refused to post any articles which expose cultic activities within the NKT? That DI is supportive of the NKT and shares many of its attitudes?

    I remember that you allowed Bella to write quite a long piece which didn’t necessarily fit in with your point of view. Do you still adhere to such freedom of speech?

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  44. I’m tired of you, it is like ‘shooting ducks’ in a barrel’ Boring. . I only answer you to clarify for others, the ridiculous sophomoric things you say. I am not really answering ‘you.’ its your ‘last wordism’ nonsense that is so silly..

    I notice of course you ignored the ‘Buddhist Brahmin ‘ site I sent , and answering anything on there of substance.

    You self-deception is impenetrable. I know. But you give others a chance to put more research and documentation up about these other deceivers..

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  45. Discrediting academia? I guess since you have never been part of it, just like you have never been really part of Tibetan Lamaism you incorrectly ‘idealize’ academics. They are often the group that is the ‘last to know”: ”

    I guess this ‘academic’ is spreading ‘viscious hearsay and gossip’.

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Third-Reich-Ivory-Tower/dp/1107400589

    I guess you believe , like the Lamas, if you just ‘name something’ this or that, that makes to true, that the ‘words’ take precedent over fact.

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  46. The ONLY reason the other Lama groups, who are cowards, are going along with the Dalai Lama in calling NKT a ‘cult’ now, is because NKT has exposed the Dalai Lama extensively. Because they are cowards, they changed their own stance of distrusting the Dalai Lama, and now have formed up a hegemony with him , This is very new history that hadn’t been done centuries.

    If they were in Tibet , doing this , there would have been a bloody war between the two sects. Intersect and intrasect fighting among the Lama sects has gone on for a 1000 years and is the real ‘thread’ in their history, not ‘nonviolence and peace”. . That is all you are involved with, an intrasect,”Lama War”.

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  47. Yes, Chris, many of the sources on NKT I have been reading have been published in academic journals and been reviewed by academic scholars– or they are personal testimony. I happen to think that this is the only way possible to distinguish between valid evidence and gossip.

    By discrediting academia as you do, you simply leave the door open for vicious hearsay and gossip to rule. You simply play by no rules and that’s dangerous in my mind.

    And so, DI, are you saying that you wouldn’t post an article researching problems within NKT?

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  48. So don’t expect ICSA to care about your ‘bibliography’ of NKT, in fact , since they are well versed in ‘cult traits” I am sure they will be able to someday generalize this to ALL the Tibetan Lama groups, as the cult members of Lamaism cannot. They just point the ‘finger’ , and call the “kettle black” while sitting in the ‘pot of the same ‘muck.”

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  49. Maybe you can go after the Dalits in India too, Joanne , who also see the Dalai Lama as the “Brahmin Buddhist” deceiver that he is, that is no buddhist, Here is there site. After “”Chinese Communist spy”, “Muslim” ( a clearly racist slur learned by the ‘subliminal rhetoric of the Dalaii whose apolcalyptic war against Muslims and other Semitic religions in the Kalachakra is also useful to the ‘war on terrorism’ ) and also accused of being an secret cult member of NKT, add “Dalit Indian” to your list, i.e. those in India that are trying to end the caste system there:

    “At the same time as Babasaheb converted to Buddhism the Tibetan tyrant Dalai Lama was being kicked out by the Chinese. The Chinese were in the process of liberating the Tibetians from the tyranny of the monkhood of the corrupt lotus eating Lamas, which is no different from the Brahmin religious institutions of Shankaracharaya, Swami Narayana or the Veershaivas. The only difference is in the rituals and these monks do not even understand the basics of the Buddha’s teaching which is Humanistic Rationalism. The monks had exploited the toiling Tibetian masses, the dalits of Tibet for centuries through the rule of Dalai Lama and the corrupt regents. The Dalai Lama finally bundled his loot and transferred his money to Swiss banks and escaped to India with the help of the Brahmin Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, the first prime minister of India . The Hindu Brahmins were waiting in 1959 at the Indo-Tibet border to welcome Dalai Lama. Nehru’s trusted friend the playboy prince of Oundh, Apa Panth was incharge of this operation.”….”The Dalai Lama was recognized by all the major Brahmins in India as a great religious leader. No wonder Dalai Lama has no problem sharing the podium with the Brahmin leaders. These Tibetian lamas and Hindu Gurus worked together to counter the Ambedkar Buddhists. Dalai Lama has refused to associate himself with Navayana Buddhism of Ambedkar because his whole superstitious worldview and serfdom will collapse. Now Dalai Lama is featured in playboy magazines with Hollywood stars. He has a huge collection of gold watches and jewelry. He has brought huge tracts of land in France and has funded grape farming for the local wineries in Europe. He is no friend of the Dalits but a Brahmin stooge who visits all brahmin ashrams like Ramanashram, Osho Commune or Kanchi Kamakoti peetam or the art of decieving guru Sri Sri Ravishankar”.

    Here’s their site, maybe you can start a ‘dialogue” with them too:

    http://dalitnation.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/brahmin-deception-through-dalai-lama-part-1/

    You will be very very busy as the world wakes up to who these “Buddhist Brahmins” ,and their leader the Dalai is: You will have a lifetime of work ahead of you. The U.S. is simply the most duped of all countries ICSA is no exception, they were taken over by the “Kindly Inquisitors” and political correctness police of academia, that refuses now in this country to see any religion as a cult, or call it a cult, they are now all ‘new religious movements” and thus obtain Church status to bilk their ‘sanghas out of millions. Most sane people will notice however , that the lamas, are all on gilded thrones surrounded by a gaggle of sychophantic males bowing and scraping around them.

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  50. My point is that if you are unwilling to address the allegations of cultism in regard to the NKT, then aren’t you guilty of what you accuse me? Aren’t you guilty of blind, cultic loyalties?

    For example, if I wrote a post exposing the troubles within the NKT (and I’ve just sent an extensive bibliography of academic sources on this subject to the ICSA)– would you post it?

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  51. Yes if you comment here on the NKT it will be removed, but the people we are assisting in that group will not take kindly to your put down. Do feel free to go into the issues you have with the NKT but do not forget Sogyal! But do it under NKT category please.

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  52. Thank you for that, DI. You just put in front of me what I should have realized long ago. DI provides no information on cultic practices within the NKT! Silly of me that I assumed because you had a section labelled “New Kadampa Tradition” that you were addressing the enormous amount of evidence showing NKT cultic practices. No, instead you are cultivating a “poor NKT” attitude.

    I know that if I begin talking about the very real problems within NKT, my comment will be removed, so I am not able to address the root of the trouble here, which is the connection that people here, such as Chris, Angie and Sankhappa, clearly have with a cult.

    The black and white thinking, the limited information sources, the abysmal lack of knowledge about Buddhism, the “all or nothing thinking” demonstrated here all has its source in Geshe Kelsang Gyatso– the cultic king, who tells students what they can and can’t study and what they can and can’t think. Doesn’t it?

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  53. https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/category/buddhist/new-kadampa-tradition-nkt/

    I think you have a loss of memory Joanne?
    This might aid you in your cult studies, but do not drink the Kool aid!
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/about/cultism/

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  54. “Communist Chinese” haha, those evil commies. Give us a break Joanne. Sounds like language used back in 1950s McCarthyist America

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  55. As I said, “Desperate”, just ‘making up’ desperate reasons to justify to yourself what you cannot bear. You are so sad, and so lost….A warning I hope.

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  56. And when I “break free”, Chris, will I grow mysterious and deceitful too? Will I have a strange, unexplained silence regarding my opinions of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and the New Kadampa Tradition? Will I sympathize with the Western Shugden Society?

    Will my ideas begin to look just like those of Communist Chinese and the Western Shugden Society and less and less like my own?

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  57. Boy, Joanne, my posts about Tibetan Lamas, must have really, really penetrated on some subliminal level because you have been obsessed , literally obsessed with me, and what I have posted,in particular and trying to prove it wrong by any means , desparately, I have never seen such desperation .. Day and night, for five months you have been on here ‘defending a cult’ on an anti-cult site..

    Did you ever hear the saying “Thou protest too much?” Probably not, so let me tell you what it means, it means that when someone says ‘no, no, no” “it isn’t so”, ‘It can’t be true!” too much, it means that on some level, deep within , but unaware to the person protesting, they are really agreeing and they are fighting against that truth reaching their own consciousness with whatever means they can, and with their whole cognitive and emotional defenses.

    . You are even going into anti-cult sights, now, to prove to yourself that your being in the cult of Tantric, abusive Lamaism, is not really a cult. That’s a new one, but there are probably people who do that, I would imagine, i.e. to bolster their cult participation, rather than to leave and heal themselves.

    Anyone that would spend day and night, for five months ‘protesting’ the view that Lamas and Lamaism are an abusive cult, that supports ALL of the sexual abuse that is occurring in ALL their sects, including the abuse of little boys in their monasteries, must , on some level believe it it is true, and just can’t bear to contemplate it. I can see why, it is horrible to contemplate that we have all been fooled by them, but particularly those that got in “close”. They have done everything in their power to fool us. Deceit in ‘recruiting’ is one of the main strategies that cults use, as Steven Hassan says. And no one likes to be fooled, no one.

    It means you are just too scared to contemplate it, and so you are choosing to spend the rest of your life proving to yourself that you are right. that your precious Lamas and your precious Lamaism is the right chose for you.

    I think you are closer to the edge of breaking free than you will every realize or ever choose. Too bad.
    .

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  58. I note with interest your study of the Inform web site. It is ironic that the place where I first got an insight into this whole issue at an Inform Conference in 1997. Here Dominique Cowell and Mary Finnigan both brought to our attention the Sogyal abuses. When we returned to this issue in 2009 it was my Buddhist expert who also briefed the folks at Inform.
    The change this summer was to see that one can’t understand the abuse issue from within as you and Mary do.
    Rather you have to first see that Lamaism is not Buddhism, and unless you break the stranglehold of that system you will tend to excuse and ultimately enable the abuse to continue.
    However, Joanne in reality you just can’t leave so this is leaving number 6!

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  59. Chris recently advised me to study more about cults– and I’ve been doing that! Today, I came upon a piece of really interesting information– something very relevant to this thread. INFORM and others in the field of helping victims of unhealthy groups avoid isolating groups because there is evidence that this is dangerous.

    It is known that if you isolate groups by ostracizing them or banning them, then you increase the likelihood of harm to members of the groups. So INFORM makes a point of staying in close touch with the groups they are investigating in order to better help victims. They also make a point of keeping optimistic about a group’s ability to change for the better. (No such optimism here!)

    There is evidence amongst scholars that the more a group maintains contact with people outside the group, the greater its chances of becoming more healthy and the less its risks of becoming really harmful.

    It has long been my idea that this is one way of viewing the fact that Tibetan Buddhist lamas, including the Dalai Lama, stay in touch with Rigpa, visit Rigpa centers and teach there. Isolating Rigpa places its students at greater risk and helps no one. Staying close increases chances for reform.

    But this is not just my idea anymore– so thank you, Chris, for advising me to study about cults! Would you like a link to an article on this?

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  60. You see, this particular thread is a prime example of the narrowness of information and thinking guiding opinions here. One video clip is shown, a few minutes of the Dalai Lama’s life, and a huge black and white, absolutist judgment is made. No one on this thread has listened to one minute of his hundreds of hours of teachings, public talks, lectures, and conferences. Yet everyone here proclaims themselves experts on his motivations, authenticity and character. Basing such judgments on a few minutes of video clips here and there is simply deceitful– it is the deceit of taking things out of context, something that the Trimondi’s and Vivas are very good at.

    It is also very Cultic to limit oneself in this way.

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  61. It is interesting where our disagreements lies on these threads– because they lie squarely on several Cultic characteristics. I am criticized because, while I recognize serious problems within Tibetan Buddhist culture, I refuse to engage in fundamentalist, black and white thinking about these problems. I also refuse to limit my information sources– I will investigate evidence on both sides of the debate– whereas, every bit of evidence given to support the black and white thinking of DI’s viewpoint is one-sided, limited and very very narrow. As Chris has said, Western Shugden Society can be relied on for information– despite its known Cultic leanings. Strange, isn’t it?

    Add these Cultic tendencies in the arguments here to the reluctance shown by Chris, Mike, and the rest to speak of problems within the New Kadampa Tradition– to their COMPLETE silence regarding Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who behaves in many “Lamaist” ways– to their sympathy for the “plight” of Shugden supporters– and to their numerous quotes from Chinese propaganda websites and it makes one curious what is going on here.???

    Once again, I am reminded of anti-cult groups who become supporters of cults themselves and quite Cultic in their thinking over time. We humans are strange creatures indeed!

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  62. I wasn’t born yesterday. Did you honestly think I did not see through that article? When will you understand how serious this is? It is not so funny when I know that are people so indoctrinated, like you Joanne, who want to believe it. It’s not so funny when I know there are gurus/lamas out there who dupe their followers into believing it. No Joanne, it is not so funny when the Dalai Lama and his magik entourage ‘dumb down’ the American people and then switches his allegiance to ’embrace’ China because that is where the ‘treasure chest’ sits waiting to be plundered.

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  63. Joanne leaving number 5

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  64. Angie, it was a joke. You know, ha ha.

    I don’t know who wrote it, but it sounds like it was addressed to all of you on these threads.

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  65. last word 4 and counting…..

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  66. Propaganda to feed the gullible believers, however, it sums you up Joanne. You think that all people forced, against their will, to living in a cult bubble will solve all problems when the reality is the bubble makers cannot solve their problems of ingrained sexual debauchery in the lama culture.

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  67. And this really trrruly and honestly and sincerely has to be the very last word…!

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/buddhist-extremist-cell-vows-to-unleash-tranquilit,34623/

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  68. Last word 3:
    All we asked you to do was to study the video carefully and give us your impression?
    Does the DL look like someone who has a problem with Sogyal in the video?
    As I see it Sogyal is in his element and the DL is totally at home. This is the only issue on this thread
    that I am interested in. You seem to have reached a fever pitch with this talk of lies. I suggest you protest too much.
    Good bye 3

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  69. Yes, I did get carried away, voicing my opinions– when my intention on this thread is only to expose the lies.

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  70. When I was at school we had a young women in the class dressed in red and a picture of an old bearded man on a necklace.
    For everybody it was clear never to mix up god ( you should not make a picture) and a human being.
    The Christians have more modesty, nobody would say if you can’t see the priest or bishop as a perfect and omnipotent god, that you have a bad karma?

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  71. You seem to have forgotten that that has been our only concern since 1997.
    We thought that was your concern, but it is clear you are involved with trench warfare to
    defend the DL/Lamaists.

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  72. Last word 2.

    Mike and Chris, have you ever wondered why Bella and Sheila have vacated the conversation?

    They’ve vacated because there’s nothing left for them to do– you’re doing it for them! They have nothing left to do but watch you implode.

    As Angie has noted you are actually commenting like them and as you are now making the same arguments as them they do not need to.
    You do seem to have not noticed that and also we are now on the thread The Visit of His Holiness the Dalai Lama to Lerab Ling 2008. You are again mixing up your threads.
    This about how it is clear that the Dalai Lama is totally at home in the presence of Sogyal.
    It is true we have concluded that TB is not Buddhism but Lamaism. You are entitled to your view, but we have totally seen through your strategy.

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  73. Last word 1

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  74. I’m not holding out much hope that you will stop defending your Lama. You are probably under the illusion that you serve a higher purpose.

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  75. Ha Ha! You are hilarious Joanne. Mike and Chris are doing nothing about abusive cults? What you three have in common is drawing attention to the cult mind-set that informs readers about cults. Your comments will always be answered by people who are well aware of the abusive nature of cults. You have a choice now Joanne, are you going to keep giving us the opportunity to refute what you say with historical evidence and inside knowledge of what Lamaism is really about or are you going to follow Bella and Shiela’s example and end your suffering? Your belief system will not be cossetted on this site and any attempt you make to ‘inform’ the readers of the so called truth will be disputed. It is your choice!

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  76. Mike and Chris, have you ever wondered why Bella and Sheila have vacated the conversation?

    They’ve vacated because there’s nothing left for them to do– you’re doing it for them! They have nothing left to do but watch you implode.

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  77. DI said, “You keep diverting the issue to TB culture, we are talking about Sogyal and no one else.”

    Really?????

    Shall I start quoting? I believe a few comments have been made regarding Lamaism, in which all of Tibetan Buddhist culture and religion are pretty thoroughly trashed. Do you remember a few of those comments? Probably several hundred of them?

    And not one of you– Chris, Angie, Mike, Sankhapp– can claim that you give a damn about any women who might be suffering within Rigpa. Your vitriol and deceit has done more to harm progress in helping victims than anything any troll could think up.

    Rigpa loyalists have only to point to the deceit and hate campaign on these threads and that will shut down any further discussion. Do you see? You’ve completely trashed your credibility– so don’t pretend you’re helping to end suffering. You’re only adding to it.

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  78. DL,(I assume DI) you are still engaged in deceit. Yes, the alleged abuses occurred for decades. Credible evidence of their existence was not evident until after 2008. You are still using diversion to disguise truth.

    Let us leave it there Joanne, I have told you that the Janice Doe case was there in the 90’s you already wrote on it. You are the one diverting but as you need to have the last word, please follow this final comment of mine with further one’s. You keep diverting the issue to TB culture, we are talking about Sogyal and no one else.

    So nothing on this thread is evidence of the Dalai Lama’s collusion with Sogyal’s abuses./blockquote>

    Sure Joanne take off the Lama spectacles or put on the Nelson eye patch……………Bye for now

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  79. Angie, nothing you say is a problem for me. I have never denied that there are problems within Tibetan Buddhist culture. The debate is over whether those problems justify waging a hate campaign against Tibetan culture, people and religion. Just that. Whether some problems justify trashing an entire religion and culture.

    I would protest such sordid actions even if the religion in question were not my own. It’s simply wrong wrong wrong.

    DL, you are still engaged in deceit. Yes, the alleged abuses occurred for decades. Credible evidence of their existence was not evident until after 2008. You are still using diversion to disguise truth.

    So nothing on this thread is evidence of the Dalai Lama’s collusion with Sogyal’s abuses.

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  80. Your comments tell me you were still under influence, however, there was room for enquiry even to the possibility of mind control. Their methods are very subtle and you have yet to come to terms with this.

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  81. And another

    Joanne, on February 21, 2013 at 6:58 pm said:

    It is funny to watch:

    1. Bella asks if anyone has heard of instances where people can control other people’s minds.

    2. I respond that there are tantric feats which speak of this.

    3. Bella comments that I can’t claim that my experiences are the result of SR controlling my mind.

    4. And now Bella is discussing whether or not schizophrenia can be attributed to this mind control.

    A little like the game of telephone.

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  82. Joanne

    Here us a reminder of what you said to your buddy KateS.

    Joanne, on February 12, 2013 at 2:24 pm said:

    Do you hear, Kate–? There are only two questions of any relevance here:
    1. Is SR engaging in multiple sexual relations with students?
    2. Are these relations damaging to students?
    There’s nothing more to discuss. Nothing.

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  83. Joanne wrote yesterday the following:

    And yes, Sheila brings up a point that you probably want everyone to miss– this inauguration of Lerab Ling was done in 2008– before publication of Behind the Thangkas.

    I personally talked to you Joanne about the evidence I have had since 1997 when I heard Dominique Cowell and Mary Finnegan speak at the Inform Conference about the abuses perpetrated by Sogyal. You are now willfully in denial and have reduced these clear claims made by Mary and others to “mean(ing) that there was some gossip and rumors about his behaviors during that time.”

    Then you wrote further,

    HH Dalai Lama has not visited Lerab Ling (or any other Rigpa venue) since that publication.

    Earlier I showed you that the DL was on the same platform as Sogyal and invited him to participate on his platform. Will you please wake up and smell the coffee Joanne.

    When DI says that Sogyal was a “known” abuser, he means that there was some gossip and rumors about his behaviors during that time.

    You are under such influence now that you have lost your ability to even remember what you wrote, and have been sucked into the vortex. Now you must deny and enable the very abuse you came here to reveal. You are in a sorry state. The document we had here since 2009 clearly outlines the evidence going back to 1997 when the Janice Doe case was settled.

    We need to stay clear and not distract or confuse readers.

    You need to stay clear and not distract or confuse our readers.
    Please Joanne for the sake of your sanity please just leave us or answer these simple questions.
    1. Do you believe that Sogyal is a serial womaniser?
    2. How has the DL clearly distanced himself from Sogyal?
    3. What structures has he put in place to achieve this goal?
    4. Can you explain how you have totally changed from this clear exposition?
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/01/11/open-letter-to-sogyal-rinpoche-from-joanne-clark/

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  84. Whatever, Joanne, I would like to make it clear to the readers that you ’embrace’ the Dalai Lama knowing full we that he protects abusers such as Soygal!

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  85. Angie, I’m not here to jump through hoops. I’m here to expose deceit.

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  86. Joanne

    You have not answered the question. What advice were you given when you complained about Soygal’s abuse towards you?

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  87. And still you distract from the main point, which is that this video pre-dates the Canadian documentary on Sogyal’s alleged sexual abuses and the publication of Behind the Thangkas. When DI says that Sogyal was a “known” abuser, he means that there was some gossip and rumors about his behaviors during that time.

    We need to stay clear and not distract or confuse readers.

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  88. What does that show? Yes, Rigpa’s leader bandwaggons frequently and he fawns– none of that comes from the Dalai Lama. I have never heard the Dalai Lama comment on the Tenzin Gyatso center– and he makes many comments supporting similar projects which are happening in the the US currently, such as the alliance between Emory University and Tibetan monks.

    I think that if you want to know where the Dalai Lama’s sentiments lie, you need to look on his website. You need to stop relying on gossip. This is something neither you nor Chris do– yet you present yourselves as experts on his activities and sentiments. Childish.

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  89. http://www.tenzingyatsoinstitute.org/featured/founder/
    The founder of the Tenzin Gyatso Institute is Tibetan Buddhist teacher Sogyal Rinpoche, author of the ground-breaking The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, who has taught in the West now for over 30 years. Rinpoche is renowned worldwide because of his special gift for conveying the heart of the teachings of Buddha in a way that is both authentic and deeply relevant to the modern mind. He is the founder and spiritual director of

    Rigpa, an international network of Buddhist centers and groups in forty-one countries that enjoys the gracious patronage and guidance of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Since 1973, when he played a key role in His Holiness’s first visit to the West, Rinpoche has tirelessly supported the Dalai Lama, communicating his message and his teachings wherever he goes. The Tenzin Gyatso Institute is the realization of Rinpoche’s lifelong wish to make a lasting contribution to His Holiness’s work and to help safeguard it over the years to come

    Published Sep 4, 2013
    Is this recent enough for you Joanne?

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  90. Wake up Joanne. Who are you to talk about deceit when the Tibetan people were deceived by the Dalai Lama? Very strange that you are concerned about the readers being led into confusion when a key element of the ‘philosophical debate’ IS TO CONFUSE and subsequently indoctrinate into a religion that subjugates its followers. You went through the abusive system. Around the time you had your nervous breakdown were you advised the environment did not suit you and best that you leave? What was the advice you were given Joanne?

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  91. No we just want you to comment on the events and how the DL was totally at ease with Sogyal and by the way the DL has been on a common platform with Sogyal since 2008. Take one example Amsterdam google it
    Amsterdam – 6000 attend public talk by Sogyal Rinpoche

    Invited to teach as part of His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s teaching programme in Amsterdam, Sogyal Rinpoche gave a public talk on the evening of 4 June. He taught on Finding Peace and Stability in a Troubled World.

    On 5 June, 2012

    Rinpoche will also participate with His Holiness and other speakers and panelists at
    Leadership for a Sustainable World, a one-day conference with leaders of business, religion and society.

    During the summer, further teaching events with His Holiness the Dalai Lama will take place in Europe, where Rinpoche has also been invited to give public talks. Details of these events can be found here.
    http://www.rigpa.org/en/about-rigpa/rigpa-news/359-bhutan-tv.html

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  92. And it appears that you don’t wish me to keep things straight with readers. You wish readers to be confused about the order of events and be misled. Leaving out key details is a form of deceit.

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  93. You are blatantly and with an unbelievable lack of logic trying to avoid the clear significance of this video. You were clear that Sogyal was a sexual transgressor. You spend a full year promoting this view on our site. Here we have the wife of the President of France, the DL and others totally at home in Sogyal’s presence. This is a disgrace and shows the DL’s words are empty. You know this but are ethically, spiritually and intellectually compromised by this video. The reason is you are slave to TB/Lamaism and are drunk with its effects

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  94. I actually don’t think the Dalai Lama has access to much gossip– and doesn’t engage in any himself. So, in that case the dates are relevant.

    As for the building, Sankhappa had quite a lot to say about that and there was a long conversation in response. I responded to that.

    As for fawning, yes I have seen quite a bit of that and I don’t like it. That’s why I’m in these sordid conversations, that’s what I’m doing here in the first place.

    However, I didn’t see the Dalai Lama fawning. He greets people in the way that you see there, whether they are rich or poor, famous or not, powerful or weak. How he greets people is always the same. He bows to people.

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  95. Clearly you have no answers and revert to personal abuse

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  96. What is the relevance of this been published in 2008? None, Mary F has been making these points since 1994! So just look at the fawning over Sogyal. You are perhaps too far gone, we have lost you Shangrila

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  97. You have a great gift to avoid the obvious. It is not the buildings we asked you to look at but the way the DL is totally at home with Sogyal. S is at his peak. The body language says it all. You are now away with the faeries.

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  98. That’s what I like about the Trimondis– they aren’t afraid to go out on a limb and talk like fools…

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  99. Why does he not do anything about it? It would seem the DL is part of the problem.

    http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-1-03.htm
    “You may be astonished that especially the Dalai Lama and his celibate monks performing extensive sexual practices and visualisations to obtain deliverance – Sacral -Sex is known as the fast, but dangerous way to Nirvana. This “left-handed” path is characterized by overstepping all moral rules and bans from the Yogi, and he’s amassing all negative karma to transform it then in a spiritual act, into the opposite.”(Translation by the blog-author)

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  100. Yes Joanne, you are having a very silly conversation with yourself.

    Joanne will never be ‘good enough’ or ‘perfect enough’ but much better than everyone else of course because she has found this ‘perfect path” to point out petty silly opinions that bear no relevance to the subject of abuse and neglectful behaviour of the Dalai Lama to rectify the gross sexual deviancy of Lama Tibetan Buddhism.

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  101. There, DI, I’ve had my response to the silliest conversation yet to come on these threads….!

    And yes, Sheila brings up a point that you probably want everyone to miss– this inaugeration of Lerab Ling was done in 2008– before publication of Behind the Thangkas. HH Dalai Lama has not visited Lerab Ling (or any other Rigpa venue) since that publication.

    One of the main methods of deceit which is used on these threads is the deceit of omission. Vivas and the Trimondis use it frequently– they leave out key details of their “historical evidence” and so mislead readers badly.

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  102. This is such a silly conversation. What about the Sistine Chapel? Yes, there is corruption within the Church and all religions, but that has nothing to do with the capacity of grand temples and monasteries to inspire the devout. And there are plenty of grand mosques, churches, monasteries and temples in the world!!!! Are we going to attack them all (or just the ones built by Tibetan Buddhists)?

    Sankhappa, you don’t have to be a fan of grand temples– I’m probably not a huge fan either– but it is childish and intolerant to scorn those who find them inspiring and comforting.

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  103. The visit in 2008?

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  104. Angie, on September 28, 2013 at 4:26 pm said:
    “Is this the very lavish monastery opened with Sogyal and the Dalai Lama in attendance?”

    Clearly not, as this is a Theravada monastery with nothing to do with Tibetan Buddhism.
    Where did you read that it was “very lavish”?

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  105. Another link: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/thailand-hunts-fugitive-jet-setting-monk-article-1.1402055#ixzz2gCX3fIuR reports that “Wirapol was in France when the scandal surfaced after leading a meditation retreat at a monastery near Provence. He is believed to have then fled to the United States but his current whereabouts are unknown.”
    Is this the very lavish monastery opened with Sogyal and the Dalai Lama in attendance?

    An excerpt from the Guardian Express reads: RSN reports, “According to the code of conduct in monasteries, authorities disrobe an erring monk, throw flour on him and chase him away from the monastery – as they did with the 20-year-old monk. However, the 60-year-old monk remains in the monastery, “The Raven” reported. “This is the first time that child sexual abuse among monks has been reported to us,” Penjor said.

    Because Buddhist monks answer to no outside ecclesiastical authority, the temples respond to allegations as they see fit. Because the monks are viewed as free agents, temples claim to have no way of controlling what they do in the future. Bhutan’s Buddhist monks have broken their vow of celibacy.”

    The Chicago Tribune article “Buddhist monks walk away from sex-abuse cases” enquiry into “What is the institutional approach here? It seems to be ignorance and inaction.”

    You are right to be concerned Chris. People have fought to educate and bring about changes in Ireland against abuse. While some may be disappointed with the end result it has moved from the stance of “ignorance and inaction” to exposure and action and brought about changes in the Irish constitution.

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  106. As Bhutan and India try and wrestle with this monastic sexual abuse, the U.S. and Europe ignores it, as monasticism declines because of corruption in Bhutan and India, it is on the rise in the west. Lucky us:

    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/3-buddhist-monks-gangrape-14yearold-girl-in-kalimpong/1101270/

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  107. “A recent report by The Raven, a Bhutanese magazine, told the story of two young boys who said they escaped their monastery after being sexually abused by two of the older monks, who are supposed to be celibate.
    The National Commission for Women and Children confirmed to AFP that the case had been dealt with internally by the monastic body, and one of the accused had been disrobed.
    Between young monks, non-penetrative “thigh sex” is also “common”, according to a UNICEF-supported report in 2012 on vulnerable Bhutanese adolescents.
    Psychiatrist Nirola, a former district medical officer, said he found sexually transmitted diseases were quite regular among monks and possibly from heterosexual liaisons outside the monasteries.
    He also came across youngsters suffering stress from the highly disciplined lifestyle, which was often not one of their own choice.”

    Read more: http://india.nydailynews.com/newsarticle/565479f9be4e8e5294cbb9e7a71532b4/monasteries-decline-as-tv-and-smartphones-grip-bhutan#ixzz2gC8nyw00

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  108. And this for Sogyal R, someone can pass it on to him:

    Read more:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/thailand-hunts-fugitive-jet-setting-monk-article-1.1402055#ixzz2gBzbP35i
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/thailand-hunts-fugitive-jet-setting-monk-article-1.1402055

    Misogynistic, all male communities, where sexual abuse of young boys abounds, whether in Tibetan monastic communites, or Thai communities, , leads to sociopathic personalities and sexual abuse of women.

    Tibetan Lamaism still ‘protected” from this scrutiny due to geopolitics and the Dalai Lama but for how much longer?

    The New York Times reported on the sexual abuse of young boys in a Tibetan Buddhist Bhutanese monastery , after these boys (10 to 12 years old whistle-blew) that’s a red flag that their protection from consequences is shattering

    . Here is a comprehensive report from the Guardian. Only a matter of time before the ‘dots are connected.”

    http://guardianlv.com/2013/06/bhutan-buddhist-monks-break-celibacy-vows-engage-in-thigh-sex-confession-video/

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  109. I think KateS is more intelligent and aware to be me. Her English is also far better.

    :)

    I think the conversations are pretty pointless all in all. That is why I don’t feel any interest in participating.

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  110. onada, on August 19, 2013 at 4:10 pm said:
    “want to know more about her?”

    Do tell, I’ll just make some popcorn.

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  111. a warning for you real bloggers she is back..remember this

    1. For all, on December 14, 2009 at 5:48 pm said:
    keep it up bella. Youre one of the finest adverts for why people shouldnt devote themselves to SR Ive ever come across. You are truly textbook, exhibiting all of the characteristics experts attribute to cult/NRM members. You are a fantastic example of how things can go so badly wrong, as well as how easy it is to dupe Joe Public and newcomers into believing the official party line. In short, my dear, if you think this page is damaging for SR and his prefabricated holy world, take a look at your own writings-You do more to damn him than even his greatest critics (However, all that is about to change). Thank you bella, for giving us all the opprotunity to actually examine a cult member at close quarters. Im sure everyone here prays for you.

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  112. Yes…bellaB is back..alias Kate S.
    want to know more about her?

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  113. Hello bloggers , got bad news for you. bellaB (remenber themadhair, on December 14, 2009 at 5:06 pm said:
    173 messages over three months is obsessive to say the least bellaB. I’m only at 107 and those go back to February. Mary is only at 71 (47 as Pema and 24 under her real name). Kapasi comes in at 83. The other major commenter comes in at 102.
    is back!!!

    her new alias: kate S. She’s a long time member of RIGPA

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  114. I must admit, I do own a copy of TBOLD, but I haven’t managed to finish it yet. It’s quite introductory, but I didn’t notice any huge contradictions with Buddhadharma in it.

    That’s the sum total of my direct connection to Sogyal though. I do know some people like yourself who have mentioned certain stories, that’s why I’m a bit surprised he is seen as a typical Tibetan rather than displaying “normal” Western behaviour.

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  115. Yes, but you didn’t answer the question KateS

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  116. I just watched the lerab ling promo video and I must confess I skipped the parts where Sogyal was talking …… has been moved to the spillover thread

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  117. Sorry, am I interrupting your breakfast? What about an answer?

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  118. Oh you do get tetchy when the discussion turns to Sogyal and Rigpa. So fess-up KateS. Do you have an involvement with Rigpa and Sogyal, or have you in the past?

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  119. I wish you would point out some machinations instead of just giving your opinion… we know you think that Sogyal is on the make, citing the 6 euro entry fee to the temple neither proves nor disproves this.

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  120. As I said quite some time ago, with our first interaction KateS, you are not really here to advance discussion about cults and abuse, but here to distract from this discussion. Your poit has been acknowledged (as if it really needed to be anyway) but of course it’s not really what this is about is it? You are sucked, hook, line and sinker into Lamaism, as Chris has pointed out, and you object to us pointing out the machinations of Lamaism. Well I understand you reaction to this,it is fully reasonable and expected, but if you don’t agree – tough!

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  121. Once again we get this imaginary person as the victim – “people are gullible”. Speak for yourself. You are protecting someone who only exists in your imagination.

    What about your own experiences? You went to Rigpa for a year. You found the presentation to be skewed in favour or Lama-worship, and you didn’t not fall for it.

    On that basis you seem to be saying that Lamaism is a corruption of Dharma, but the presentation you saw in Rigpa is not the same as that given by all Lamas.

    What background knowledge did you possess which made you question Sogyal’s method?
    Maybe you saw certain people around you who bought into it?
    What was the difference there?

    It’s all well and good theorising, but when I point out that my specific experiences differ from those being cited as evidence, it seems that these details are creating a problem for such a grand theory.

    In the example above, I really don’t understand why you have an issue with the entrance price to the temple. It is less than the price of a soft drink in France and clearly not some exorbitant price that is clearly an attempt to rip people off.

    It’s all well and good saying that you think it should be free on the basis of your idea of Buddhism, but doesn’t that say a lot more about you and your expectations than it does about a nominal charge for a temple visit which is perfectly normal and reasonable by Western standards?

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  122. Yes, the gullibility of people in the West plays it’s part, but the Lamas of Lamaism set-out to cultivate willfully and deceptively, under the guise of Buddhadhamma, with an agenda to manipulate and exploit. So yes, your point is acknowledged KateS, people are gullible. Hence, the reason we are here posting information on Lamaism. It is self-evident by the existence of this forum. But if you need it to be acknowledged, I’ll say it again. People are gullible and they should be less trusting and more discerning, but the fact is they are not, so we need to bring it to their attention!

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  123. dialogueireland, on August 9, 2013 at 6:25 pm said:

    “No they are addressing Lamaism and you take up some irrelevant aspect and side track us. They sometimes indulge you with a short comment in reply, which then leads to a further digression. I am just reminding you that we have now got your idea when mentioning a subject that you then relate it to capitalism or some failure of the western system.”

    The major difference here is that, although Chris brought up these issues, there nevertheless seems to be this idea that “Lamaism” exists in a vacuum.

    It seems quite clear to me that this “goon-show, big-top circus” is a product of the interaction between Tibetan Buddhism and the West, and yet every time I try to suggest this, it is met with the response that I am blaming the “victim”, as if it is either 100% “them” or 100% “us” and couldn’t possibly be a situation created by the interaction of the two.

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  124. “up to 3-4 in the morning obsessing over a forum, which you seem to be. I’ve noticed this about your behavior, and also that you often have a post on this forum by around 8am, about 4 hours later”

    Yes, I post once after I’ve had my breakfast, and then, usually after a reply, I might post again 4 hours later.

    Were I to post with my observations regarding other people’s posting habits, no doubt this too would be called “obsessive” on my part and an attempt to side-track the thread will irrelevancies.

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  125. This is just the same ‘middle management’ damage control cult members posting here , or possibly hired hands of the Lamas, although they hate to pay for anything, if they can get it for free,

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  126. “Lerab Bling” wonderful Sakappa, Perfect!

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  127. Thanks DI, good reassessment of what this is about. I will just reiterate for KateS. This is about the cultic form of Buddhism, Lamaism, that has successfully infiltrated the West, disguised as Buddhadhamma. While it is very obvious to me and others that this has very little relationship to Buddhadhamma, and is just like any other cult with an agenda to control, manipulate and exploit, others (and seemingly yourself) are not able to discern the difference. I am attempting to point this out by way of contrast.

    So if you think the goon-show, big-top circus of Rigpa and Sogyal Rinpoche has any relationship to Buddhadhamma, and is not a form of Lamaism, then we are not even on the same page. This is clearly one of the most obvious examples, and if you unable to discern the difference in this case you have well and truly gone into the lala land of Lamaism yourself.

    …on which point… isn’t it past your bedtime?

    Yes it was pretty much, and I am well rested now thank you. Unlike you KateS, I am not up to 3-4 in the morning obsessing over a forum, which you seem to be. I’ve noticed this about your behavior, and also that you often have a post on this forum by around 8am, about 4 hours later. This appears quite obsessive behavior, particularly for someone claiming to practicing Buddhadhamma. Maybe you need to get yourself a Samadhi practice to help you break free of this cycle.

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  128. No they are addressing Lamaism and you take up some irrelevant aspect and side track us. They sometimes indulge you with a short comment in reply, which then leads to a further digression. I am just reminding you that we have now got your idea when mentioning a subject that you then relate it to capitalism or some failure of the western system. We have that now and we do not need to get it every day. so if you want to go down that route, it will be in the Spillover thread. A couple of digressions are fine, but not a roadblock.

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  129. I think you’ll find that point was raised by Chris, and supported by sankappa. It seems only fair if you allow them to raise those points in the first place that I should be able to address them also.

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  130. KateS “failure of patriarchal authority in our own society, We hear that the Westerners,” “failing to find a father figure in the current model are looking to the Lamas as children would to parents,” “medieval mind-set, and now it seems you are unhappy because they are too well adapted to our capitalist system.”
    These are you interests but ours on this thread are Lamaism and not your particular application into the off topic issues you keep trying to divert to. These last comments will be left here, but please stick with this thread and there overall issue. Lamaism is the cultist form of TB.
    I do not spend my day monitoring things here, and as you know you appear at most peculiar times, whereas, as Sankappa has stated he is gone for the day. Further off topic responses will go into 101 Spillover thread.

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  131. In other words…

    what we are dealing with here is the perception of a failure of patriarchal authority in our own society, and the fear that “their” discourse may actually be more successful at establishing that.

    As a counter to these perceptions and fears, what you are essentially trying to do is install your own patriarchal authority on the situation.

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  132. …on which point… isn’t it past your bedtime?

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  133. That’s exactly what I am saying to you.

    The classic line in 1930’s Germany, 1970’s Britain, and currently in the U.S. was that, not only are “they” different to us, but, horror upon horrors, they are actually integrating into our society…

    All of the complaints raised here – superstitious magical thinking, exploitation and accumulation of wealth, insidious abuse both sexual and otherwise, social inequality and injustice, etc. – are exactly the same issues we have with our existing society.

    Then there is the mode of discourse…

    We hear that the Westerners, failing to find a father figure in the current model are looking to the Lamas as children would to parents. Then there seems to be an attempt to usurp the parental role by some of the people posting here, who claim to know what is best for us…

    Surely the problem as it stands is that Sogyal already has an overbearing “anal” mother – he really doesn’t need another one.

    When it suits you, you make the “authoritative” claim that TB is not original Buddhism, making absolutely no effort to see how the two relate to each other because it does not suit your goal.
    Then, at other times you take the “common-sense” approach of knowing better and placing yourself in the role of Mother.

    The possibility of a discussion of one adult to another seems to be blocked.

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  134. Seriously KateS, is that the best you can up with?

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  135. Sankappa, previously you were highlighting the fact that they were stuck in a medieval mind-set, and now it seems you are unhappy because they are too well adapted to our capitalist system.

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  136. Admission Fees

    Standard fare: 6,50 €
    Reduced rate: 4,50 € (students, unemployed and ‘RSA’)
    Audio-guide: +1€
    Group rate: Up to 30 persons:150 €. Over 30 persons: 5 € per additional person

    Quite unbelievable. They actually charge to visit the temple. What happened to dana and generosity of Buddhadhamma. The greed and materialism of these Lamas is amazing.

    TB corp: turning the Dhamma on it’s head.

    Lerab Bling: Sogyal’s little earner and slice of Old Tibet in the south of France.

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  137. the simulacrum of a dominatrix!?!

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  138. Are you the Master of Ceremonies at these events or just a recorded message?
    DI

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  139. They’re just superficially showing respect, and a bit nervous, even the priest and those guys in the KKK outfits.

    Buddhism is contrary to materialism though, but even Western philosophy left that behind 200 years ago, the “sheeple” take a while to catch up with these intellectual trends.

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  140. Just look at that documentary that is magical mystification. They are all awed by transcendence.
    Bowing and scraping and not an ounce of living in the material world

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  141. “TB just tries to give a magical view of transcendence when in reality it represents as you agree an A-Theistic position”

    That’s interesting because I’m sure that even Wikipedia pages refute the idea of transcendence in Tibetan Buddhism, so I am quite curious where this idea originates.

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  142. No we leave that to Texas and the chainsaw! I would have the competence to debate with him about Buddhism, but would be able to debate as I did last year that Christianity is the mirror opposite of Buddhism. We represent the infinite personal vs the infinite impersonal of Buddhism. TB just tries to give a magical view of transcendence when in reality it represents as you agree an A-Theistic position.
    The debate would follow the Queensbury rules over 15 rounds, and the exercise for me would be to see if he has the debating skills that would show whether he wrote that Dead and Buried book! In fact Chris might be a better debater with him! Now KateS, I know as soon as I mention her name a siren goes off in your compound and you all rush to comment! Note I do not do the Tenpel, Joanne Ha, Ha,Ha sing song.

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  143. He was just a visiting scholar in comparative religion at Trinity, Cambridge for only a year I think, but he was acting as a translator and arranging meetings between the DL and the Pope etc.

    He might well attend a debate if he didn’t think you were going to do a hatchet job on him.

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  144. I think it was clockwork orange?
    How long did he spend in Cambridge? Did he even get a Diploma? Have we any of the notes or material associated with his book? Do you think he would participate in a debate at Theological Society at Trinity College, Dublin?

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  145. What I heard was, that in an effort to assimilate to Western values, someone leant Sogyal a load of U.S. made movies, you know the type of videos that are produced by the shed load in L.A. – and so Sogyal adopted the true American dream and integrated it into his teacing style in an effort to appeal to Western students.

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  146. …and of course, out of respect for his vows, the Dalai Lama was only allowed to be the lube boy, and only on condition her wore a latex head to toe gimp suit…

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  147. Was the former President’s wife wearing a bra?

    Maybe at first, but Sogyal mind-controlled her making her take it off ready for the orgy afterwards.

    She had the same shoes as Dalai Lama, and after the orgy she’d prolly be walking like him too :p

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  148. Sankappa you deserve a break from the “Western moralistic” ideation of the bold KateS.
    It is a weak paradigm to use gobbledy gook and in language to avoid the implications of a straight video. Was the former President’s wife wearing a bra?

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  149. No, I’m pointing out what I see as the obvious corruption of Buddhadhamma. But what’s obvious to me, is not so for those who are in denial.

    ‘Western moralistic stance’? No just a human common-sense look at what’s obviously going on.

    I’m surprised you are using such limiting paradigms as “Western moralistic.” That’s the kind of put-down that Tibetan Lamas use as part of their control strategy. Perhaps that’s where you got it from KateS – you’re just regurgitating, without realising it.

    It’s bedtime in my part of the wold. Goodnight…

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  150. Precisely. You seem resentful because, although a nice temple was built which people donated towards and seemed to want – something I myself am not particularly a fan of – your response is based upon what you think Sogyal thinks.

    I don’t recall anywhere in the sutras Buddha advising this kind of thinking, and I would suggest that it is quite unhelpful to Buddhist practice, after all, we are surrounded by a whole society full of people with arguably questionable intentions…

    Your position is not one which allows you to use Buddhadharma as a stick to measure other’s authenticity, you are simply taking a Western moralistic stance against that which you personally disapprove of.

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  151. I’m not using the term sankhara in the ‘volitional fabrication’ sense here. Sankhara refers to all conditioned phenomena. So now perhaps you may understand what I’m referring to here?

    But let’s not forget also that it is an outward manifestation of our volitional formations. But I think we already have a fair idea of Sogyal’s state of mind. At least I do anyway…

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  152. So sankappa, what you are saying is that your ‘volitional fabrications’ are based around the cluster of the concepts; opulence – lust for wealth and power – immodesty – sensual indulgence. Thanks for sharing.

    Remind us what the Buddha said about misrepresenting your own perceptions as if they were independent reality.

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  153. Such a humble lot aren’t they? Gone forth into homelessness without any fanfare – just like the Buddha Gautama … haha. In fact, EXACTLY the opposite – gone forth into opulence with much fanfare, lusting for wealth and power and sensual indulgence.

    How big and golden is my temple?? Keep those dollars and the undiscerning rolling in, leading then on to think this is Buddhadhamma …

    What the Buddha said about all this accumulating – “it’s all just sankhara.”

    Like

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