Lama sex abuse claims call Buddhist taboos into question by Mary Finnigan

Lama sex abuse claims call Buddhist taboos

into question by Mary Finnigan

Mary Finnigan is a journalist and a writer on Tibetan Buddhism

Allegations against Sogyal Rinpoche highlight the dangers of Buddhist injunctions against gossip and insistence on loyalty

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/jul/01/lama-sex-abuse-sogyal-rinpoche-buddhist

Guardian Friday 1 July 2011 12.41 BST

In November 1994 an American woman known as Janice Doe filed a $10m lawsuit against the Tibetan lama Sogyal Rinpoche, charging him with sexual, mental and physical abuse. The case was dealt with out of court and Janice Doe signed a non-disclosure agreement in return for a cash settlement.

Sogyal denies allegations of abuse, but fresh evidence against him was recently aired in an investigative documentary called In the Name of Enlightenment, broadcast on Vision TV in Canada. A beautiful young woman identified as Mimi described an abusive sexual relationship. She was the first person claiming direct experience of Sogyal’s exploitative attentions to go public since the 1994 lawsuit.

Sogyal (surname Lakar – Rinpoche is a title that means “precious one”) is the frontman for a Tibetan Buddhist organisation called Rigpa, which has a worldwide reach with 130 centres in 41 countries. He has a bestselling book, The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, to his name and he starred alongside Keanu Reeves in the movie Little Buddha. Sogyal is a formidably successful guru – probably the best known Tibetan after the Dalai Lama. His trajectory into Buddhist superstardom suffered only a temporary setback following the Janice Doe lawsuit – despite the fact that lurid rumours about his sex life circulate on the internet with increasing volume and persistence.

The allegations raise a wider question: why are victims of sexual exploitation by charismatic religious leaders reluctant to denounce their abusers? In the Canadian documentary, Mimi highlights the Stockholm syndrome – a term used to describe the paradoxical reactions of individuals who bond with their abusers. “The person beating us, she says, “is also the only one giving us affection – and food and a roof over our heads.”

Sociologist Amanda van Eck is deputy director of Inform, the cult information resource at the London School of Economics. She says fear is probably the main reason why women stay silent: “In some groups there has been fear of retribution,” she says, “which means they don’t want to speak publicly. In other cases, which may overlap with fear of retribution, they are fearful of negative consequences – damnation, of not being saved, of possession by evil spirits, of being attacked by negative forces and so on.”

If the outside world has been demonised by cult leaders, Van Eck says, women may also be fearful that no one can be trusted.

Many women who have described abusive sexual relationships anonymously on internet forums refuse to come out of hiding because they want to move on, rather than relive traumatic periods in their lives. Some also feel a need to protect their families.

In my personal experience, there are two taboos in Buddhist organisations, both of which have merit and both of which can be used as manipulative tools. One of them is an injunction against gossip – useful when trying to establish a calm mental state, but also useful to prevent the circulation of critical comment.

The second is samaya – the bond of loyalty that is one of the key tenets of Tibetan Buddhism. It supports the relationship between teacher and neophyte, but it can be deployed unscrupulously as a threat – break your samaya and attract dire consequences to yourself and your loved ones.

Another factor is that acceptance into the inner circle around an important guru delivers high status within the organisation. Women are persuaded to view the master as a deity and to be compliant with his wishes and whims, to undertake a punishing workload and be available for sex on demand. They are separated from family and friends, discouraged from contact with the outside world and persuaded to see the organisation as family with the guru (confusingly as father-lover) in absolute power and control. By the time women realise they are being abused, exploited and embedded in a coercive cult, it is often too late for them to extricate themselves. Their investment is total and their chances of making lives for themselves beyond the organisation have dwindled into non-existence.

Whether or not Sogyal’s relationships were abusive, as claimed, they raise another question: how does a short, overweight, Tibetan lama manage to attract beautiful young western women? The answer is rooted in the mystique of tantra – the only Buddhist tradition that includes sexual union in the path that leads to enlightenment. Professor Geoffrey Samuel from Cardiff University explains: “In the third initiation of the highest yoga tantra, sexual union is introduced as a parallel to the experience of enlightenment. It creates certain sensations that help towards experiencing the state of ultimate realisation – in other words Buddhahood.”

But Samuel says that although this arcane version of sacred sex is present in Tibetan Buddhist scriptures, it should not be confused with the modern neo-tantra movement and nor is it appropriate for recent converts to Buddhism.”People should have a health warning” he says. “An elderly guru seducing a young woman probably isn’t doing it to assist her towards enlightenment.”

Tibetans outside Tibet are refugees who feel constantly under threat from forces beyond their control. Their social conventions include a taboo against criticising lamas. The Dalai Lama is constrained by this and so too are the majority of other lamas teaching in the west. They have closed ranks around Sogyal, regardless of their misgivings about the allegations against him. A more cynical view of this apparent conspiracy of silence hinges on the fact that Sogyal pulls in a lot of money – some of which is channelled into Tibetan worthy causes.

749 Responses

  1. Dalai Lama is the only politician I have any respect for. In fact he gives hope while the others play self-centered games. As a feminist I wouldn’t mind being ruled by any such patriarch whose heart is open, who is wise and deep thinking – like HHDL.

    Vatican is a very small country. Catholics seem more devoted to their religion than Anglicans or Lutherans. South of Europe is more corrupt and chaotic than the rest.

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  2. “Religion and politics are not combined in most of the countries, at least not in the biggest countries.”

    Until fairly recently there were active monarchies in Europe, who considered themselves there by Divine Right.

    There’s still the Vatican City, which is a theocratic absolute elective monarchy.

    Tibet was a theocracy, completely ruled by religious fanatics, who often warred among sects, and it it still is in exile with the Dalai Lama, a monk, as political head.

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  3. Giulia: :D

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  4. Bella, darling, don’t be mean with Victoria, please, a bad fuck is a bad fuck. In North Europe we are of the predisposed opinion that “the primitive peoples” have nothing but uninteresting sex to offer to us, women. Have done a bit of experiential research after my Ph.D. was finished, so to say. Conclusion: “the situation is not as bad as I thought BUT”…

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  5. I guess most of the sensationalist news come from the US, since I have never heard about these creationists in Europe. Maybe they are silenced here? Nobody takes them seriously.

    Religion and politics are not combined in most of the countries, at least not in the biggest countries.

    If a US president is not all the time showing respect toward (Christian) religion, he hasn’t a chance in US politics. (Even though ironically Obama may be a Muslim, at least from the father’s side he is a Muslim according to Islam even though his father is not religious.) In my country a heavily religious politicians are not popular except among the hard core ‘Christian’ sect people (max 10% of the total population).

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  6. “claims that creationism should replace the theory about the Big Bang. For a European it sounds utterly mad. I can’t even imagine this kind of discussion taking place in Europe.”

    You may not imagine but you’re incorrect.

    “In Italy in 2004, there was a proposed decree against the theory of evolution.

    In Switzerland, the ProGenesis group has a tentative project called “Genesis-Land” that envisions a leisure park on the model of the Creation Museum in the US state of Kentucky.

    In the United Kingdom, creationists hold lectures at schools and organize international symposia.”

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,609712,00.html

    “In the July-August 2004 issue of Skeptical Inquirer, Massimo Polidoro writes about how the Italian minister of education, universities, and research, Letizia Moratti, announced a ban on teaching evolutionary theory to young teenagers”

    “In Poland, a staunchly Roman Catholic country, the theory of evolution was described as “a lie” last year by the Deputy Minister of Education, Miroslaw Orzechowski, a member of the ultra-conservative League of Polish Families.”

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  7. Sheila,

    “Victoria Barlow, accusing Sogyal Rinpoche in the 1970s:

    “[He] slobbered all over me, grunting like a Pekingese and when he was finished a few minutes later, got up quickly and said he had to go.”

    Amlearning, accusing Sakya Trizin on January 19, 2004:

    “He asked me to lie down, he lay on top of me, grunted in about 5 seconds and then ran for the door…” ”

    We all know they are busy men… It must be something about the Tibetans: grunting and so on… ;)

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  8. Speak the truth,

    Where is the contradiction?

    “suddenly say actually come to think of it you spoke to one of his carers and she says nothing sexual goes on, do you really think she would confide in you in any case?”

    I said 2 years ago in this page I’ve been going to Rigpa for about 10 years. I have talked to some of the close students, including the ‘carer’, and I have a friend also in Rigpa, who knows those people better than I do. Do you think it’s a contradictory to what I have said?

    Victoria Barlow says she knew him 1976 and I say I have known him since the beginning of 2000. I’m talking about what Rigpa is today. MF nor Barlow have visited Rigpa since the 70’s.

    It is a KNOWN fact that US is filled with truly believing Christians, totally UNLIKE Europe. My friends live there and they are always shaking their heads about the religious stuff coming out in politics. In many European cultures religious political parties are not popular (except in Northern Ireland: there’s a another area where ‘religion’ is used as a political tool).

    We even hear news about US schools and claims that creationism should replace the theory about the Big Bang. For a European it sounds utterly mad. I can’t even imagine this kind of discussion taking place in Europe. There is a huge difference between US and Europe. At times US politics remind me of Middle Eastern politics.

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  9. Sheila, Tibetan lamas are lousy at sex, which is not the meaningful point of this discussion. It is that this sex is nothing about tantra, as they try and trick their students into thinking, or sacred for that matter. It’s just them seeking self-gratification, using their devotees. I’s just a wham bam and not even a thank you ma’am.

    This sexual gratification is not the Buddha dharma. It’s not tantra. It’s just bs. There is plenty of bs in the world, men using women and women using men. But these lamas, in the case of Sakya Trizin, who is titled, His Holiness, are supposed to be teaching the holy dharma, the sacred teachings, acting out of selflessness, compassion, wisdom, not just getting their jollies off with their gullible disciples.

    Students are taught by these lamas to see their teachers as living Buddhas but this is not the behavior of living Buddhas, just sleazy, conning, manipulative, typical bs.

    As for the Dalai Lama being on the CIA payroll, this is well documented and nothing at all to do with Chinese propaganda. Please, look up your information online. From the US Dept. of State http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/vol_xxx/337_343.html

    $180,000 a year, used to operate the Dalai Lama’s exiled government’s offices in Geneva and New York up until 1974.

    “In 1956 the Dalai Lama, fearing that the Chinese government would soon move on Lhasa, issued an appeal for gold and jewels [donated by the serfs] to construct another throne for himself. This, he argued, would help rid Tibet of ‘bad omens’. One hundred and twenty tons were collected. When the Dalai Lama fled to India in 1959, he was preceded by more than 60 tons of treasure.”

    Not such a non-materialist pacifist.

    Another example is, The CIA’s Secret War in Tibet.
    http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/concia.html

    “Quoting Joseph G. Morgan, Department of History and Political Science, Iona College, who reviewed The CIA’s Secret War in Tibet: In addition to training agents and paramilitary units for operations inside Tibet, the CIA took other steps to aid the Tibetan resistance. A CIA subsidiary, the Committee for Free Asia, financed a trip that Thubten Norbu, another one of the Dalai Lama’s brothers, made to the United States in the early 1950s to plead for American support for Tibetan independence. When Tibetans lobbied for the passage of a United Nations resolution that expressed concern over PRC policies in Tibet in 1959, the CIA provided information to sympathetic journalists and editors in an effort to build up public support for the resolution. The Agency also assisted the Dalai Lama’s government-in-exile by giving a $180,000 annual donation to the Dalai Lama’s charitable trust fund until 1967 and by subsidizing a training program for Tibetan officials and agents at Cornell University. It also purchased Tibetan art works for display at the government-in-exile’s Tibet House in New Delhi.”

    Recent lectures on the subject by former CIA operatives at Stanford Uni. The CIA set up Tibet House in America and elsewhere in collaboration with the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama’s first Western monk he ordained, Robert Thurman (father of Uma), was set up oversee Tibet House in New York, along with Richard Gere.

    “His Holiness” the Dalai Lama permits himself to be worshipped as a deliberate reincarnation of a line of other Dalai Lamas, a god-king. He sits on an elaborate throne which is then itself worshipped.

    Even in the West he allows himself to be worshipped as a reincarnated god-king, sits on a throne, teaches and encourages a belief system that allows people to protrate themselves on the ground to him.

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  10. Victoria Barlow/Nicky Skye posts on another site about the Dalai Lama’s “CIA” and “Nazi” connections: http://www.metafilter.com/80712/Bob-Thurman-Tibetan-Monk

    Are you serious?

    This is straight from Beijing, and anyone who is familiar with the Chinese government’s drool — which is actually quite a lot of westerners these days, and rising — will recognize it.

    Even if you come by it innocently, which at this point I find almost impossible to believe, for the sake of your sex abuse story you ought to check your sources more carefully when using them to slander people.

    This garbage is one of the chief reasons I discount the Sogyal Rinpoche “abuse” allegations.

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  11. Victoria Barlow, accusing Sogyal Rinpoche in the 1970s:

    “[He] slobbered all over me, grunting like a Pekingese and when he was finished a few minutes later, got up quickly and said he had to go.”

    Amlearning, accusing removed on January 19, 2004:

    “He asked me to lie down, he lay on top of me, grunted in about 5 seconds and then ran for the door…”

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  12. http://www.thereformedbuddhist.com/2011/02/karmapa-bhutan-egypt-and-dalai-lama.html

    “The survey by Bhutan’s National Statistics Bureau found that roughly 70 percent of women say they deserved beating if they neglect children, argue with their partners, refuse sex or burn dinner, reported the Business Bhutan newspaper.

    The acceptance of domestic violence is highest (90 percent) among the women in Paro, a picturesque valley that’s home to Bhutan’s most revered monastery, Takshang. The capital city of Thimphu scores the lowest acceptance rate, about 50 percent, for wife beating.”
    Well now, that’s a bit disheartening. I guess you could really ask Bhutan when it stopped beating its wife. This, among other ugly and sometimes buried events in Bhutan’s very recent past, including the deportation of hundreds of thousands of Nepalese Hindu minorities, shows the Himalayan nation has quite a long ways to go if it wants to get a gold star in the human rights category.

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  13. Ok, for your sake, I repeat: ‘The Americans seem to be a bit religious lunatics (almost like Muslims!) from a European perspective.’ Thank you, you are right! Many of them are supporting Tibetan monks who (apparently) visit whores.

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  14. Completely gaga=irrelevant rubbish is the way it seems

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  15. I see, it seems that any attempt to have a discussion here is for people Bellab, Shiela and Guilia to post and post and post. You win. I’m off.
    It’s a shame this sort of spamming is allowed here, it works in favour of whoever wants to obliterate any sensible discussion. I’ll leave you to your fun. Good luck. You’re quality!
    I will repeat what I said a few mins ago, before Guilia and Shiela obliterated it. Bella said:

    ‘The Americans seem to be a bit religious lunatics (almost like Muslims!) from a European perspective.’

    Bellab, rascist and sectarian and talking ****. Seriously you are not a good advert for Rigpa. Also, you contradict yourself, one post yesterday you claimed to be friends with a man at Rigpa who knows all the gossip and that’s it. Then after Victoria’s posts you suddenly say actually come to think of it you spoke to one of his carers and she says nothing sexual goes on, do you really think she would confide in you in any case?

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  16. “At least the schooling system is quite low quality in US (I don’t mean Universities) and the fact that Christian religion is NOT taught at school creates more possibilities for people to end up in weird religious sects.”

    *rolls eyes. Oh please. The Europeans wrote the book on cult followings, nutcase religions or destructive leaders of all kinds for centuries before us dumb Americans. What about centuries of the Inquisition? Or the Borgia despots? The monsters of World War II? Stalin? Papadopoulos? Franco? Milosevic? Margaret Thatcher? Berlusconi? The Magdalen laundries that existed up until 1996?

    You said, “If I had the feeling that I was in anyway coerced into anything”

    The way cults work is not by coercion, at all, quite the opposite. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxJyfqeaKU8

    Yes, Sogyal was about 29 then in 1976. That does not make what he did any less criminal or abusive because he set himself up as a religious teacher, not merely a spiritual guide but as a reincarnation of a great master.

    He decided then in 1976 to create a cult like following of groupies, as he perceived that Trungpa had achieved. He has continued in his serial womanizing for decades. It’s one thing to be a typical, sleazy playboy in the disco clubs or cheated on by a lover but it’s quite another to set oneself up as a teacher of sacred truth, the Buddha Dharma and then to screw disciples, who turned to that religion with an open and trusting heart.

    What is especially loathsome about this is that Sogyal’s specialty, via The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, is that people in an intensely vulnerable state of mind, grieving over the loss of a loved one, turn to Sogyal for guidance and then get suckered into being sexually victimized. This is what happened with Janice Doe.

    The lawsuit against Sogyal accused him of “fraud, assault and battery, infliction of emotional distress and breach of fiduciary duty. It also charged that he ‘seduced many other female students for his own sexual gratification'”

    For anyone’s information, the legal documents for the lawsuit against Sogyal are not secret. Anyone can contact the court and obtain the documents, read them for yourself.

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  17. It most definitely means N P was not allowed to have sex with me (thank G. did not have any), as SHE was the one to try to rob a 400 US $ worth gold chain from ME.

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  18. Let’s discuss the following: Do we agree monks should be allowed to have sex with prostitutes that “they have paid for themselves”????? !!!!

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  19. Let’s retunr to the discussion that has become the main one. “Sogyal had or not had sex with such and so” and “SR paid or not paid 10 million or whatever” and “The number of the lawsuit filed against SR” has been pretty much exhausted by now.

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  20. Neither accuser nor accused is sacrosanct. If we’re to find truth, we must investigate both people’s accounts. If we investigate the accuser, we are not necessarily “apologists.” And if we investigate the accused, we are not necessarily “witch hunters.”

    After a point in our investigations, we each tend to form an opinion.

    I’ll be very frank: I don’t believe Sogyal Rinpoche committed abuse, and this is same conclusion drawn by the Santa Cruz courts.

    What I see instead is the same, small group of people bringing the same (sometimes to the letter) allegations against one teacher after another, beginning in the early ’90s. The only thing that has changed over time is which teacher they’re after.

    I have many other reasons for not believing their accounts (will round some of them up, and post, not that anyone probably gives a rat’s patootie), but the above is enough on its own.

    So I’m full circle, back to the research track I was on when it intersected with Dialogue Ireland – following these things to their source.

    As I mentioned, Mary, tap into that and you’d likely be popping champagne at Hachette Livre.

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  21. IMPLICATION: monkhood promotes misogeny

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  22. ‘The Americans seem to be a bit religious lunatics (almost like Muslims!) from a European perspective.’

    Bellab, rascist and sectarian and talking ****. Seriously you are not a good advert for Rigpa. Also, you contradict yourself, one post yesterday you claimed to be friends with a man at Rigpa who knows all the gossip and that’s it. Then after Victoria’s posts you suddenly say actually come to think of it you spoke to one of his carers and she says nothing sexual goes on, do you really think she would confide in you in any case?

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  23. ABSURD to allow *prostitutes* to monks (am discussing in all openness..) in the Buddhadharma, which has such a *simple* system of going back from 5 to 4,5 vows; or maybe that is asking too much of “monks”? Well, go back from 5 to 4 and cease to dress like that and to have any pretension whatsoever.

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  24. Moreover, Sogyal would never stop to teach or have at one of his places for teachings / retreats one of his (ex-)lovers as at least HE clearly understands that the primordial issue is DHARMA.

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  25. So, prostitutes are ALLOWED? For MONKS??? http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/dalai.asp

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  26. As for Trungpa: I understood he never had any secrets. Also, the personal attendant of CTR has explained me in summer 2011 how the “Tenzin Osel had sex despite having AIDS” was the consequence of a gross linguistic misunderstanding of something CTR had told him. CTR meant: “Of course you cannot have sex anymore now”.

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  27. I have never been interested *at all* as to whether K. OTD sleeps with N P or not. It is the killing and poisoning that HAS to be stopped.

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  28. I am talking here ENTIRELY in the new to be set up tradition according to the wishes of mr. Tenzin Gyatso: to discuss *OPENLY*.

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  29. At least SOGYAL does not *kill* the ones that complain about his performance or merely mention it afterwards.

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  30. What I personally have always *liked* about Sogyal: He does not claim he is a monk; All his students seem to know he “has many girlfriends” (that’s at least what my female cousin said) — Hey, you know what? I ALSO have had “many boyfriends”. BUT would not want to sleep with e.g. Sogyal as I have heard one needs to “shut up” about it and, you know what, one of the best parts of having had sex with someone is to discuss the new conquest with colleagues and friends the very next day!

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  31. acha, did not know this. Karmapa Orgyen Trinley Dorje definitely has “tickled the palm of my hand” at the end of an audience in Sidhbari at which he basically “summoned” me to come forward to give him a khata! This was 2004.

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  32. In general, I have found the entourage (family, monks) of mr. Orgyen Tobkyal to be that of natural people, which I have liked. Also some of the monks would be dressed at times (once or twice) only half (like bare legs or something, with skirt tied up) and I have found it beautiful and natural and a sign of great confidence.

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  33. As for “lamas and clothing”: I don’t want to play down Victoria’s experience, as she was with Sogyal Rinpoche alone and received a different treatment than expected, but in terms of “education” of the lamas that might read this thread I want to remark the following. There have been a couple of times I have seen Orgyen Tobkyal Rinpoche basically in his pijamas or something like that. Or unshaven & with an old pullover covered with cement water. Stuff like that. His family and monks and in some cases Indian workers were also present. I cherish these moments as very intimate moments in which he showed himself as he at times also is and at which times he was unafraid to show himself like that including to me, an ienzjie. The images of those instances are etched in my memory as very special ones.

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  34. Even right now he is doing something special and I become a mess. I SO hate it. My life has been harrassed in this way since I met him in 1997. Next time I feel like I go crazy I will notify Interpol for sure.

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  35. What I hate much more: every time (one of) the Orgyen Trinley Dorje “travels in secret” (last time most probably was between October 24-28th) I go beserk and end up at my doctor’s clinic and that last time also lost my job due to high-running emotions. I have sent many letters to Sidhbari begging to figure this out, but the sob’s refuse to answer and just carry on harrassing my energy body and I loose EVERYTHING again and again and again. I also proposed to let me know when he “travels in secret” so I can stay at home and take medication, but noone seems to care. I will ask SR to negotiate this for me.

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  36. ‘It was not like going to see some guy. My ordinary street smart antenna were not working. All the lamas I’d seen before in India were monks, there was only ever an atmosphere of the utmost formality around them.’

    Yes, not unlike going to see a dr. or someone in a position of authority who you respect and revere. When people like this take a lunge, or a grope it stuns you and you can freeze or acquiesce. Our brains aren’t able to see this respected person, in that moment, who would act in that way, and therefore don’t process it in the same way we would if a friend lunged at us or someone in a public place. Sounds like you’re telling the truth to me.

    I hope you have managed to find some sort of inner peace, Victoria. Thanks for sharing..

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  37. sheila-fpmt-the public face of tib budd=the TB world is SO much bigger=see the story of the frog in the well

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  38. Its far from perfect, I came up long ago with a rough first filter for determining whether an organization warrants caution:

    Do they call you if you don’t attend?

    Some people want shepherding – they want the phone calls, the pastor knocking on the door to see why you’ve let your attendance slide. Enthusiastic pastoring doesn’t guarantee a religious organization is cult-like; however, it does let you know that you cannot expect unfettered control of your own decisions.

    I’ve never experienced even gentle pressure from Geshes, monks or nuns to attend anything. Sometimes students will say something like, “Oh you have to come Sunday – Khensur Rinpoche will be visiting!” That’s the extent of “pressure” in my gompa.

    This lack of pressure — or you might call it the unspoken pressure to make ones own decisions — is consistently at the top of my list of reasons for deeply respecting Buddhism.

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  39. What can I say. I have several family members who are students of Sogyal Rinpoche. My brilliant cousin the lawyer and his (now deceased) wife the Academy of Arts educated artist. My uncle, twin brother of my mum, has made the altar for the local Rigpa centre.

    The experience described above more sounds like “a disappointing sexual experience” than anything. Most of us, women, had a few of those.

    My neighbour the yogi also assaulted me in a similar way. I simply found it a pity because I had not given any signals whatsoever (at least not according to Northerneuropean standards) and from then on I could not deal with him in an unconcerned way anymore. A pity.

    But he is not a teacher and was not my teacher…

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  40. @No name – casi todos.

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  41. “Intelligent people also followed George Bush Jr.”

    The Americans seem to be a bit religious lunatics (almost like Muslims!) from a European perspective. I don’t know about the Americans who were following George Bush, if they were intelligent (doesn’t seem that way). At least the schooling system is quite low quality in US (I don’t mean Universities) and the fact that Christian religion is NOT taught at school creates more possibilities for people to end up in weird religious sects.

    I don’t know ANYBODY in Europe supporting him. He was considered the worst madman.

    How do I know I’m in a cult?

    If I’m told what to think, even though I see different things with my own eyes and experience different things – then I think I’m in a cult.

    I’m not told to do anything or think anything in Rigpa. Even if we discuss the gossips in Rigpa, we are not asked to throw away our brain. Person talking about these things only explains how the person sees/has experienced things. There is no programming. One is free to make up their own minds.

    If I had the feeling that I was in anyway coerced into anything, I think I would have gotten an anxiety attack, a long ago. I do get it with manipulative bosses or men in general. I’ve experienced it many times. I think I would recognize it in Rigpa too.

    I just have to say that I do not recognize SR from you description. I was also a child in 1976, so it seems like ages ago. Was SR 29 years old in 1976? Pretty young kid to me. Especially when I know Tibetans to be quite innocent and child-like compared to us. Even I myself felt like a child still in that age.

    If you were on friendly terms and close enough – talking on the phone with SR – I can’t see it as a terribly distant student-teacher relationship, but almost like friends.

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  42. “why not fight so that 1. he understands you don’t want this; 2. you get him off you”

    The point of going to see a holy lama, a man reputed to have reincarnated to benefit all sentient beings, to be able to control his reincarnation, a rinpoche, in this case Sogyal Rinpoche, was to take his blessing, to learn from him and offer my respect. I went prepared to prostrate 3 times, offering my body, speech and mind to the sacred dharma before listening to a word this rinpoche had to say.

    It was not like going to see some guy. My ordinary street smart antenna were not working. All the lamas I’d seen before in India were monks, there was only ever an atmosphere of the utmost formality around them. I thought that would be the same with Sogyal, as there had been when I went to see him translate for Dudjom Rinpoche. All students prostrated, everybody clasped their hands in front of them in the namaste position, bending forward out of deference.

    The very last thing I expected after experiencing that atmosphere with other lamas was this vulgar lout, Sogyal, mauling me like in the back of a pick up truck in the 1950’s. For that brief time he simply took off his false personality mask and exposed the creep he is.

    You may never have seen Sogyal open a door shirtless with a bottle of beer in his hand but I did. It was 1976 and that’s what I saw.

    bellaB, You asked: “I’m still wondering why do you think so many older students that strike me as intelligent people have stayed with Sogyal Rinpoche over all these years (decades)?”

    Intelligent people also followed George Bush Jr.

    I can well imagine many of the cult devotees – as there are no doubt loving and good people who were devoted to George Bush Jr and Dick Cheney for example or to Mukhtananda, Rajnish or other unscrupulous leaders- who are loving, kind, thoughtful, well meaning, intelligent and compassionate people.

    That does not take away from the reality that Sogyal is a two faced manipulator and brilliant at it, with decades of experience and the willingness of tens of thousands who want to believe.

    Once people go into the vortex of a cult, an entire belief system, a hierarchy, it is extremely hard to come out of that Land of Oz.

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  43. TODOS ESTAN LOCOS…………..O NO?

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  44. Rather I have felt harrassed by Ngodrup Palzom, who came onto me again and again, to my big surprise, and I was only interested in teaching her the alphabet, as she claimed she wanted me to teach her. Also have thrown her out eventually, a couple of times. In the end I did not even want to let her into my house anymore. She turned out to be a huge cuddler and comer-on and wanted my gold. As said: I threw her out.

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  45. Thanks for beautiful post, Bella. I hate to ask this, as feel sympathy for women who feel / have felt harrassed in general, but what I do not quite understand: if a guy leaps on you and you don’t want sex, why not fight so that 1. he understands you don’t want this; 2. you get him off you. As for me, with the Orgyen Trinley who said he was 18 (but turned out later that he was younger — this I discovered once in Dordogne — those people seemed to know better than me what had happened — I had forgotten totally about the small episode), I kind of “endured” his oral sex as he kind of surprised me and seemed keen, but usually I am not into oral at all, I rather discourage men from doing so as I do not like it very much. Before he could make it to intercourse, I simply threw him off me and out of my bed and out of my room.
    Can you imagine ME, I was the one to be punished for this?? These people are *insane*.

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  46. Victoria, thank you for your answer.

    I’m still wondering why do you think so many older students that strike me as intelligent people have stayed with Sogyal Rinpoche over all these years (decades)?

    I have met them personally and they are decent good people. You should probably know them personally.

    I also consider Sogyal Rinpoche an intelligent person, far above average.

    My best friend is also highly intelligent, according to his study records and his career – connected with emotional intelligence I haven’t seen before (especially in men, but neither in women). He can see the big picture fast and draw conclusions from a story a person tells him even though he has never himself personally experienced those kinds of things.

    My friend doesn’t see SR as you do: a sloppy womanizer. Neither do I. SR has sense of humor, okay, but that doesn’t mean he has no personal boundaries. I haven’t any experience of him as you describe: sloppy, tipsy, easy going, relaxed, lazy. According to my experience he is the complete opposite.

    I have never seen SR drunk (I guess Trungpa was also drunk in front of students?) nor a little tipsy. I have never seen him use alcohol.

    He is very strict character. He said in one tsok he can’t drink alcohol. I think he meant because he has done so much practices and alcohol doesn’t feel good. I have been in many occasions, on every retreat, when SR sits with us during some important Buddhist day for hours doing his practice while we do ours. The students knees are in pain but he continues after 8-10 hours (and it’s already midnight). We all have had a long day since the morning, also SR. (Just a message to Mary, who thinks he doesn’t do any practice, but just drinks, smokes and watches porn.)

    In Rigpa alcohol in tsoks was removed because of alcoholics: I thought it was quite compassionate toward those people not to be tempted.

    Since I have never been alone with SR, it’s hard even to imagine how he would be. I’ve spoken to him while his attendant was there and it’s really not easy going and a comfortable situation, where any advances could be made. Hardly any student has spent time alone with him, because he is all the time busy doing something. I know one female attendant whom with I have spoken (and who has never been abused by him in anyway) and we have discussed these matters. We both have had disappointments toward men in the past and would be alarmed by the scenes you describe above. But the attendant has traveled with him a lot and knows what is going on. Nothing like womanizing is going on. This is the scene today – and it’s difficult to believe these stories.

    SR is also accused about making his attendants work (it’s part of their training to visualize things, concentrate and not to be all over the place), be effective. If he wasn’t himself exactly like that too, hard working and seeing the bigger picture (and instead running after women, drinking beer), how do you think he could train anybody?

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  47. Uh, that was me. Sorry.

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  48. You will find varied reaction on the “anti-cult” forums to your experiences.

    On the rickross forum, my thread on Adventism was shut down almost immediately. Grayed out, it is a visible reminder not to trust that an organization is anti-cult simply because they say they are.

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  49. When I looked up online the person I refer to as the cult buster, I see he has discussed his part in dealing with cult survivors for many years. His name is Josh Baron. In the 1970’s he started a counseling center called Sorting It Out to help those leaving a cult.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=blepPjQL9I0C&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=%22Josh+Baran%22+sorting+it+out&source=bl&ots=-D4he0qgzg&sig=PT7K4m5CMYcHcMOHJa6tCHYAzXI&hl=en&ei=KcjSToT9BYX40gGqzIDzDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Josh%20Baran%22%20sorting%20it%20out&f=false

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  50. This is bad, Victoria. But, all of you: MUCH *worse* is to be a target of several attempts of murder because a teenager who turns out to be “Karmapa” has set his lusty mind on one.

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  51. Trying to answer the questions directed at me:

    @bellaB

    In the Debi Goodwin documentary I said Sogyal just wanted a quick lay. That was transparently his agenda I realized after the fact, when he opened the door to the apartment where he was staying with no shirt and a beer in his hand. He had invited me over to the apartment specifically to discuss a spiritual question I had started to ask him over the phone. He said to come over, that he was busy at that moment and it was better to come over.

    Once he sat next to me on the sofa, he immediately sat very close, started touching my cheek, whispering I was “special” and then suddenly basically threw himself on top of me. He yanked my almost floor length dress up, slobbered all over me, grunting like a Pekingese and when he was finished a few minutes later, got up quickly and said he had to go.

    That translated to me as he wanted a quick lay. He then spent the next few months racking up about $1000 on my mother’s telephone credit card that I, a total fool for trusting him, offered to him “in case of an emergency”, calling me up, saying he wasn’t getting enough sex, which he euphemistically called as “exercise, heh heh”.

    Why did I believe Janice Doe? Every detail of Janice Doe’s experience rang true to me in similarity to what I had experienced with Sogyal myself 19 years before. She had nothing to gain in telling me her story and everything to lose because it is painful and humiliating to tell another person that one was betrayed, especially sexually and worse, by a spiritual teacher. Even worse in the fantasy that having sex with Sogyal might help her dead father.

    Janice Doe called me to air her suffering after detaching from Sogyal. I came to know her well over 2 years.

    She told me all about how she happened to see Sogyal in the first place, about her life. Her intention in contacting me was only in sharing the burden of her suffering with somebody who had experienced the same kind of suffering 19 years before she had. I told Miranda Shaw about Sogyal’s sexual abuse and serial womanizing in 1990 and Miranda forwarded Janice Doe to me 4 years later.

    Janice Doe and I spoke about how Sogyal had never stopped his serial womanizing, how devastating this was to be tricked into thinking it would help her recently deceased father. She was in the depths of grief and had turned to Sogyal, a supposed expert in the Tibetan sacred teachings on death and dying, hoping to help her father after his death.

    In the two years I spoke with Janice, I came to know her husband, went to her place of work, spoke with length with her. She was meticulously thoughtful in word and deed. She and I were both concerned for other victims of Sogyal’s abuses.

    My thought was that being brought up by an untrustworthy parent set me up to make bad choices as an adult. I took on some of the blame for making bad choices.

    Her point was that it does not matter if the person is vulnerable to bad choices, the fault, legally and morally, is in the person committing the crime of taking sexual advantage. That is true in the case of theft for example. If one is vulnerable wearing a nice necklace, that does not give another person the right to steal it.

    A year passed after we first met and neither she nor I thought anything legal could be done or any way to stop Sogyal’s abuses. A number of women from Rigpa wrote letters to Janice, which I read, or contacted her by phone. Parents of one of Sogyal’s victims called me to try and help their daughter, who was enmeshed in the Sogyal cult. I spent many hours talking with a variety of people who had been abused by Sogyal in those days when long distance calling was expensive. I learned that Sogyal’s abuses of others had not stopped but continued for decades, from 1976, when he told me that he wanted to emulate Trungpa, have long lines of women waiting outside the door for him to use sexually, like a rock star with groupies.

    I think a therapist treating cult survivors suggested speaking to a renowned cult-buster. Or the cult buster contacted Janice. I don’t know the sequence of events. But about a year or more after I first met Janice, she introduced me to the cult buster and I thought he was very intelligent, compassionate and savvy. He spoke about his own experience being part of a Zen Buddhist cult and being taken sexual and psychological advantage by female roshi. To this day he still considers himself Buddhist and we have remained in contact.

    Others since then have spoken about their being sexually abused in the Zen community on the web. An example: https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=155962831118899

    The Janice Doe case was settled for reasons I do not know. I offered my affidavit, was interviewed at length by her lawyer and by a couple of journalists. In 1994 Don Lattin interviewed me for the San Francisco Chronicle and somebody from the New York Post.

    As for preferring privacy, Janice did not want the rest of her life to be destroyed by the lawsuit as she already experienced so much damage already to her emotional well being and her marriage. She did not want to be dragged through the mud of public scorn, either from people who would have ridiculed her for being part of a cult in the first place nor from members of the cult. She did not want the scorn and being accused of not telling the truth, such as I have experienced on this board today.

    In a way it was the only thing I could practically offer, apart from my affidavit for Janice Doe’s lawsuit, was going out on a limb, using my real name and letting the public know that Sogyal is a serial womanizing, sexual predator, using his cult for his own sexual gratification and camouflaging it as something to do with Buddhism.

    Since I had no part in the settlement of the lawsuit, I had no idea what the outcome of the settlement would be. My only hope was that it might prevent Sogyal from abusing more women.

    As for my face and eyes in the documentary by Debi Goodwin. I’m not used to public speaking, it was nerve wracking to talk about such a painful subject that occurred 35 years ago. I’d already experienced email death threats and the last thing I wanted was to be the brunt of more abuse. I tried to be rational and to the point.

    Just because your friend was not sexually abused by Sogyal does not mean he is not a sexual abuser. His Rigpa organisation is technically a not for profit organisation that receives millions of dollars in donations from cult members and is registered as a religious institution in the United States. Sogyal’s expenses of every kind are paid by those donations. As such, the head of a religious organisation, now endorsed by the political head of Tibetans in exile, the Dalai Lama, he has to obey laws.

    Since he has already experienced one lawsuit for his sexual misconduct I can imagine he has a lot more to lose if his misbehavior is outed again. He’s 63 years old now, it’s unlikely he can continue the sexual abuses of his younger years.

    In 1976 such sexual misconduct was much more difficult to document. These days any cell phone or mini video camera can document such events quite easily. Let him be concerned about that.

    The important thing now is that the topic of morality and spiritual teachers – cultic or not- being held morally accountable for their actions is being discussed in public. Students of any spiritual path have a right not to be conned, physically, psychologically, financially or sexually abused by their teachers.

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  52. Om benza amrita hana hana hung pet

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  53. Last but not least: Have been wanting to ask mr. Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche why his *daughter* is not a teacher of the Dzogchen Community. Will ask.

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  54. and her eldest child should be the next Head of the Sakya lineage. These people are breaking the dakini samayas!!

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  55. I hope the S T writes a big fat check for his elder sister, who actually currently should be the Head of the Sakya lineage *right now*.

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  56. and then accuse ME, a scholar wanting to learn Tibetan for the dharma of being a slut child-rapist?? You must out of your f minds!!!!!!!

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  57. yuck: she is at least 20 years YOUNGER

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  58. even the Sakya Trinzin, I suspect, has a deal with the “Orgyen Trinley” with a scar in the right elbow to marry that so-called incarnation of his aunt??? He is going for that “deal”?? Wth: she is eldest and THEREFORE should be next Head of Sakya lineage.

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  59. parents, poisoners of those loved by their son(s), unwiling persons to answer questions & coach those truly gifted for dharma

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  60. whether they are the *parents* (and poisoners) of the several OTRs (small one with round head so-calledly “Pawo Rinpoche” born in France) *or not*.

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  61. And DALAI LAMA should *cut* with Chanteloube lamas according to the definitions laid down by Namkhai Norbu as they not only practised Dorje Shugden in 1999, but, moreover, tried to kill someone (or more than one) due to knowing this.

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  62. As CHANGCHUB DORJE no doubt said: “It is SO much better to have a community in which people are free to choose whether to have a celibate life-style / period *or not*.

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  63. and, (t)he(y) has/ve “sis” already anyway, isn’t it?

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  64. and even *much less* will the OT marry mis. Gyari as most probably I have been poisoned with purpose of killing me by those who wanted Karmapa OT as brother-in-law / son-in-law and, therefore, it would be evil, inappropriate & sick if he would do that.

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  65. PS I most definitely believe Victoria Barlow is Victoria Barlow, as parallel to her posts today at his forum I have been exchanging messages with her through FB. I believe every word she says.

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  66. PS am constantly under oath as am sworn translator for Courts of Justice & Police

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  67. NB I had no idea that boy / young man was “Karmapa” and in that case most definitely would not have taken him home!!!

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  68. Sheila: the mistake of the Tibetans is that they sit on so many thrones and therefore make themselves “special”. In ordinary class-room or lecture situations, in one person in front in a normal position nobody feels the needs to “be special” (as for me, my whole life have endeavoured to be normal, but most of the time without success).

    Bella: In Tibetan culture sex IS a sin: I was heavily “punished” because a 14 (?) year old Orgyen Trinley was adamant to leap at my pussy & again when an 18 (?) year old Orgyen Trinley slept at my home in the Himalayas.

    Bella: By now, Tibetans should know that to have sex with a student is absolutely out of the question (unless one involves in a “real relationship” / marries).

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  69. At least now we see that this isn’t about saving Tibetan Buddhism, it is about destroying it.

    Although we can’t be sure that the person here is Victoria Barlow, I will for the time being pretend it is.

    I don’t have any doubt that you have suffered terribly. And I really don’t want to make it any worse.

    However, this is not a court, you are not under oath.

    I have two very close friends that knew you back in the day. Both are western females. Both have devoted their entire lives working to help dharma students through their writing and translation. Both have impeccable ethics. And both are positive you are not speaking the truth. I really don’t want to go into details on this, but they have remarkably similar stories and as far as I know have never discussed it with each other.

    One of them even told me that they also testified under oath debunking much of your story.

    I think your appearance hear show that we did hit a nerve. We caught Mary making stuff up. We have seen her supporters behave in ethically dubious ways. We have seen false claims of loving Tibetan Buddhism. We have seen Dialog Ireland refuse to seriously deal with mistatements they have published and instead resort to threats and attempts at intimidation. So now they trot out someone claiming to be Victoria Barlow. That just shows how badly the last few weeks have gone for the team that stands tall with the PRC.

    I realize that what I write here will just send many here into vitriolic diatribes with the sole purpose of demonizing me yet again. But I remain standing comfortably in the knowledge that I have spoken the truth the best I know how.

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  70. In Tibetan culture sex is not a sin.

    In Tibetan culture infidelity is not an ‘issue’.

    In Tibetan culture teacher having sex with a student is not prohibited as far as I know.

    The stories that I have read in Am-Buddha: some women are into Tibetan Buddhism, but it could be that ‘they are open themselves’ to the idea of having sex with Tibetan lamas. Their main priority is not to be a good student, a holder of the lineage, but to have special attention from important men. Sexual adventures. I don’t believe many lamas would simply dare to approach Western women. At least the lamas I have met didn’t behave in such a way. If the lama then is willing and sexual stuff happens, women blame the lama for ‘being such a man’ as to have sex with them once, but not being interested in long term relationship, public marriage and so forth. Is that abuse? Or just sex?

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  71. Personally, I think we westerners are hungry for intense spirituality, and many of us attend gompas with the added vision of being declared “special.”

    When Tibetans treat us like anyone else, nothing “special,” or even take such a hands-off approach that we feel ignored, some of us go overboard trying to be noticed.

    Unlike the Fathers Bill, Geshes will not call you. They will not make a big deal about your absences, and you may mistakenly feel they don’t care. This is a very big disappointment for some expecting a superficially intense experience.

    When we don’t get that intense experience, we sometimes try to create one ourselves.

    But it is the reality of Buddhism: your path is not up to a priest or personal trainer, it is up to you.

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  72. And, because of this and other women who have been killed over him, he will *not* be “successor” of DL

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  73. My apologies…he was born in 1985.

    So you are saying you slept with him when he was 12 years old, at which time you would have been around 36.

    Orgyen Trinley did not leave Tibet until he was 14.

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  74. Even during Kalachakra Washington July 2011 they made a point of making “mature women” appear in front of DL to teach “Orgyen Trinley” a lesson. I am telling you: I am not like them *and*, MOREOVER, I went to Darjeeling to learn Tibetan so I could be useful to the dharma. But when my teachers (partly daddies of the Orgyen Trinleys (Pawo R. is younger brother, probably son of tulku Pema Wangyal, OTR as in Kalachakra most prob. son of Rangdrol) found out he had leapt at my “jewel” as in cunnilingus they decided they have to poison me (and who knows do what to me — I lost my memory from Thursday to Saturday prior to going to hospital as was inconscious). Now am jobless for various reasons: several poisonings (mr. OT somehow knew his way back to me even though I was at the other end of India and also mrs. Ngodrup Palzom would come and visit me again and again and cuddle up to me (is she a lesbian??) blew my mind to pieces and *still* don’t know much Tibetan #is this due to them Tibetans no longer wanting to teach me Tibetan because I had been branded as child rapist due to treacherous Orgyen Trinley telling lies# $or not$?!

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  75. Giulia, you should be careful about saying you slept with Orgyen Trinley, given that he was born in 1986.

    If you say you slept with him before 2004, you could be accused of sexually abusing a minor.

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  76. Darling, I am talking 1997 and 2003. I (capital letter & emphasis) was born in 1961.

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  77. Victoria, in the documentary you said the SR just wanted to have ‘a quick lay’ with you.

    What happened?

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  78. And he and that NGODRUP PALZOM *only* interested to know whether I am pregnant with Orgyen Trinley yes or no, and me, least person in the whole wide world interested to get pregnant, least of all with Orgyen Trinley or any passer-by. Even someone always has been checking on my garbage in Bir, I guess they were too much used to Chinese “menstruation police”. HALLO, I wanted to learn Tibetan, be useful for the dharma, learn more of it, dwell in the nature of mind.

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  79. And that ORGYEN TOBKYAL, no matter how much he helped me, is also always checking my mind to search for “foul stuff with monks” where there isn’t any while *his* monks call nuns from Dehra Dun in order to have sex with her 3 at the time in a hotel room in BIR.

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  80. bellaB, Oscar wrote to me directly. I believe him. Others who have experienced abuses by Sogyal have, over the years, written to me, I believe them.

    I believe Janice Doe’s experience of abuse by Sogyal. I believe the woman in France, who talks about being abused by Sogyal in Debi Goodwin’s documentary.

    Janice Doe received letters from those abused by Sogyal, including a woman therapist, who described the “Lama Care” at Rigpa as a sort of pimping service, used in the lawsuit against Sogyal in 1994. I believe those letters. I’ve spoken to other women on the phone who were abused by Sogyal. I believe them.

    The accumulation of stories of abuse by Sogyal have accrued over decades. I was the first to speak out about Sogyal’s abuses from 1976 onward. I know I will not be the last. I wish to offer my support and belief to any others who wish to speak out.

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  81. These stories are great fantasies of the mind.

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  82. Giulia, when you were 15 Orgyen Trinley was not even born yet. I don’t understand.

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  83. and all the while *HE* fucks them all

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  84. Ladies, seriously, you need to abandon your gompas and come to mine. That is, if you are willing to sit on cushions until your bones lock up as you try to focus on Geshela’s commentary on Atisha.

    There will be only a bubbling cauldron of black tea. Which you won’t even have to make yourself, and will most likely be served to you by Tibetan women, not the other way around.

    If a car screeches to a halt as you’re walking home, you can pretty safely accept the ride, as it will likely be from an aging farmer with a thick Wisconsin accent, arguably more difficult to understand than Khamke.

    Platonic Buddhist teachings: I gotz it.

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  85. The hocus pocus of *that* Orgyen Trinley, moreover, has impeded any enduring relationship, as I was used to since I am 15, ever since I met him. He is a DEVIL.

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  86. Conclusion: MUCH better to have female teachers since these are more sensible and have much less strong “passions”.

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  87. The whole bunch of lamas is nothing but obsessed with sex. “They” also @interrogated@ me and I answered according to truth that the youngest guy I ever had sex with was almost 17 years old while I was 21 years old and he was very willing! (don’t need to tell you this) And WTF is it of thEIr business *anyway*??!!

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  88. Daddies Rangdrol Rinpoche did not care to interrogate “Orgyen Trinley” and his brothers who pose as him and tulku Pema Wangyal simply assumed the worst, as he is a man and cannot think (apparently) but in terms of lusty self-interest. I have never any such as in relation to a 14-year (or whatever) treacherous lusty thief who goes by the name of Orgyen Trinley.

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  89. Another STUPID category of teachers are those who do not receive women to answer their questions in order not to have their “passions aroused” and/or for fear of their “reputation” (as if a man can have any… except for a normal Westerner).

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  90. A veritable yab.yum of revelation. It really needs no rebuttal.

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  91. At least SOGYAL does not call a woman a whore and a rapist & exclude her from teachings & poison her after he besieged / charmed her.

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  92. I’ve read American-Buddha.

    I’m no more convinced by these stories now than what I was 2 years ago when I read them.

    Is it impossible to keep to your own real experiences, Victoria, and answer from there?

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  93. Here is yet another person’s account in 2004 of the abuses they witnessed by Sogyal. this person identified themself as Pema Zangmo, “I want to talk about my participation with Rigpa for six years, up till 1986.” http://www.american-buddha.com/tig.lily.toc.htm

    January 13, 2004, No. 1
    I staggered down my windy, creaky, cottagey staircase a few moments ago to discover the Rigpa programme in my mail. I really was rather taken aback, as Rigpa had consumed my mind for the past god knows how many hours — I’ve lost track of time — well, all night and before, for years and years. The programme’s contents are bright and friendly. It looks like a really well organised and compassionate set up, on paper, as it always has. My guess is, the very few old familiar names left are trying to make the best out of a bad job.

    Oscar, please, can you use your more up-to-date connections to spread the news of this website? Also, please don’t worry about speaking up here. It is horrible for all of us. I would like to talk to you out in the open. Normally, I am a very, very private person, but I realise now what I say needs to be heard by as many people as possible who will have the chance to come to really quite a safe space, and see the emerging full picture that has been denied them. Some people have been kept so much in the dark, they didn’t even have the chance to look into the murky shadows where a great festering wound is permeating the hearts of so many practitioners, including the Lamas. This wound is re-incarnating again and again through the Tulku system.

    Oh, everybody: isn’t it truly appalling that Sogyal considered himself the emissary of Padmasambhava, and so grossly misunderstood the nature of sexual energy? More like the emissary of the Devil. And it is this, in my opinion, this inextricable mesh of light and dark, that the Lamas in the face of it just can’t handle, which has plunged Tibetan Buddhism into its degenerate depths, and hundreds of both male and female students into absolute despair.

    I’m going to keep posting throughout the day. I want to talk about my participation with Rigpa for six years, up till 1986. I shall draw on both the light and the dark of my own experience over the last, god help it, 30 years. We have Amlearning’s account just prior to when I met Sogyal. We fortunately have Oscar’s account, after I split. Now we need to hear about whatever is currently happening in that most dysfunctional Rigpa family. It is way past time we confront this wound so that it can heal. There is nothing I would like better than not to be involved. I want carefree days and restful nights. But I know I have a huge responsibility. So do whatever honourable Lamas are out there. Until they do something, people like Sogyal (he is not the only one) will literally go crazy with self-delusion and take their Sangha down with them.

    and

    January 13, 2004, No. 2
    We were told by Sogyal that when a Master meets a Dakini, he has to rape her to gain her secrets, because she will never just give them away. (I’ve also heard that elsewhere). It was meant to be funny. What an aggressive male way to interpret a mystery of such unfathomable beauty.

    (I’m sitting here staring at the emoticons, especially the very worried looking one who can’t stop blushing, wondering how to go on with this topic of Dakini). I’m not an accomplished yogini, nor anyone special, yet I have had about a handful of powerful nyams which I know in this day and age are very unusual. Bar one, they took place during sleep. I’m only mentioning this to make the point that they took place during times I was also capable of doing exceedingly stupid things. One of them, the first seems to have been a genuine encounter with Dakini activity. I was doing Vajrasattva ngondro at the time in retreat at my old home. I will speak of it here, (though with great reluctance) because as extraordinarily life changing as it was, I still went on to make hopelessly foolish decisions in seeking out Lamas to be my partners. It was a forceful dream that completely swept me up with a power of its own into a radically different form of non-dual blissful consciousness. The nature of the dream was Yab-Yum and clear light, and receiving a message. It finally ended with me pondering an unfamiliar script in the sky, at which point my intellect interfered and I fell down, down, down and woke up.

    I know these things should not be talked about, especially plastered over the Internet for god’s sake, but I sort of feel ok about it because I have not divulged the message, though I have done so to a handful of trusted friends, and I probably shouldn’t have, and I won’t in the future.

    The point I am trying to make here is that one can (and if I can, anyone can) have powerful awakening experiences and still be pretty much fucked up in other areas of one’s life.

    So, is this what is happening with the Lamas?

    I also mention this to show why I believe in a so-called secret level of consciousness which pervades the Tantras, and why I cannot dismiss Tibetan Buddhism as a load of bunkum. Though I am asking myself whether such experiences do not belong to the Eastern Tradition alone, but are within the capacity of every human being. It is a function of the human mind. However the Tibetan Lamas and yogins seem to have monopolized it and have somehow managed to steal power over women. So we are being raped.

    and

    January 14, 2004
    I arrived at Rigpa not long after the most wonderful time in my life: my hippy days in India, Nepal and Sikkim. I had devotion to The 16th Karmapa fresh in my heart and fond memories of the Lamas I had crushes on. There had been quite a bit of bottom-pinching then too! (I also knew the handsome Achi, and he was good-looking then. Though I turned him down on principal of pride! He had just gone through my best friends! He didn’t mind, it was worth a try!)

    I had also had a series of Nyams involving altered states of consciousness … black consciousness beyond self … consciously entering dreams … consciously coming back from the state of sleep into my body (not drug induced, though I wondered whether earlier acid trips had opened up a part of my brain). I wanted to understand them and I wanted a Lama lover. As simple as that. The haste with which Sogyal filled that role rather took me by surprise. I had been initiated into the Manic Mandala. He kept me there/I could not get out, because of my weak spots that had hooked me in.
    I chose to stay there although the alarm bells went off almost immediately. It was my damn pride that tangled me up.

    One of his French girlfriends arrived and I was cold-shouldered. He used that tactic again and again. I just felt so cheap. I regretted sleeping with him. But in order not to be cast out — my terror of rejection — I hung in. I also hung in because I was hungry for the Dharma, though I never ever regarded Sogyal as an enlightened person. Rigpa was an arena where I could meet like-minded people and receive Teachings from Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche in England and France. I was assigned to do the driving.

    On one occasion I was bringing Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, who was sitting in the front seat and his monks in the back, from another Centre in the North. I was completely exhausted as Sogyal as usual had messed up all the practical logistics that people in the normal walks of life would resort to. We were all very stressed out. (His own stress being put back on us?) Anyway, driving back as night and rain fell, I was on the Motorway and due to roadworks a far too narrow lane of bollards had been set out. I could hardly keep my eyes open and now I had to navigate a tricky course. This was made worse because a fantasy flashed into my mind taking me completely unawares. In the most unwanted, untimely fantasy that has ever seized my thoughts, I was performing oral sex on the gentleman beside me. I was so embarrassed wondering if he could read my mind. I broke out into a cold sweat. Narrowly avoiding the bollards I struggled to gain control of my mind. It was truly a terrible moment in my life. He was quietly reciting mantras on his mala and I was in a complete panic. In desperation I sent out a thought bubble to him, “I am so sorry it’s just my ego.” In a twinkling the fantasy vanished. Truly vanished without trace.

    Later I shyly told one of his long-term students in the Dordogne about the episode and he laughed and said it was a Bhutanese joke! I will never know. But I truly adored Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche who never laid a finger on me. He was one of the few Lamas I really thought wanted to convey a culture-free independence to me. This story slips in to show how sexual imagery is so much part and parcel of the Tantric fabric. It is the doorway to the slippery slope down which fake masters have slid.

    One day I was hitchhiking outside La Sonnerie during a break of some Daka Dakini ceremony being given by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. A car screeched to a halt sending up a cloud of dust. I needed to go in the opposite direction. The young male driver obligingly turned the car round. He told me he had been in the last three year Retreat but had got out after the first year. Within ten minutes we were at it like rabbits in a vegetable patch. I think we were both quite astonished. All that talk of Dakas and Dakinis … all that sexuality pulsing away underneath the outward show of ceremonies … A bubbling cauldron of good old healthy lust with sexually liberated western women and young Lamas who had had celibacy forced upon them tossed in together.

    Sogyal had indeed made a fortuitous rebirth as the reincarnation of Padmasambhava … except that he wasn’t. I have to stop here as I need to go to the shops, and I’m starting to get flippant when actually this subject matter is a very serious one. This has been a kind of preamble to set the stage.

    Like

  94. In 2004 a man who described himself as, “In the mid 80’s, during my seven years with Rigpa and 4 years as founding director of a national Rigpa branch”, who witnessed Sogyal’s sexual abuses and wrote about it online, here:

    http://www.american-buddha.com/oscar.1.htm
    and
    http://www.american-buddha.com/oscar.2.htm
    and
    http://www.american-buddha.com/oscar.3.htm

    From: oscar
    To: AmLearning
    Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:40 pm
    Subject: Sogyal R
    Hello ” AmLearning”,

    I have read your account of your horrible experiences with Sogyal Rinpoche and I can confirm many similar events happening during the time (mid 80’s to beginning 90’s) when I was in a leading position in Rigpa Org in Europe. Because of the obvious abuse of female students, I confronted SR , who called me a friend at that time, several times (he did not even try to justify his behaviour spiritually), then first I resigned from my position and later left Rigpa fellowship. I did not want to give my name anymore as a person of trust to be misused to help to recruit women to Rigpa to eventually be abused by the SR (“lama care”).

    I am very interested in the information about the lawsuit against SR which I guess took place recently, and which you mention in your comment on the Kazi case.

    With best wishes

    ~oscar~

    From: oscar
    To: AmLearning
    Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:32 pm
    Subject: my story

    Dear AmLearning,

    Thank you for keeping my privacy and answering in length to my email. I will tell you a bit of my story, and having discovered ambu-bulletin board only one day after you, I will need more time to carefully consider my next steps. I have no interest to join into something which is not yet clear to me what the motivations of some of the people are. I write to you because you appear to me clear, well thought, and responsible. This makes your contributions to me more trustworthy than many of the other posts.

    Some are horrible and have very bad energy themselves. I find the papers on narcissism in the bulletins quite correct. But let me say that also: what “Odysseus” and “Ambu” say in many of their posts is very horrible and unacceptable to me. When Ambu wants to get all men fucked and wants to cut their balls, I can’t see her anymore in any moral position to criticize others. If you want to change something for the better, you must try yourself to live up to the values you want to defend or support as good as you can. I am very hesitant about putting something into the American Buddha bulletin because many of the posts there are of very low ethics and using words and expressions which do not represent my values and the way I want to change something for the better. This kind of complaining and judging and talking reminds me of adolescents who yell at their parents and blame them for everything they do without putting the same high standards on themselves. But we are adult. So I must say very clear: I will not become a member of another sect. I see this danger very clear in this forum, and this will take the power away from the justified and necessary actions to stop people like SR abusing their students and abusing religion, and the trust of many good people. Abuse is always soul murder, and sexual abuse in so called spiritual context is for me the worst. It makes me sick. But some of the posts there are as sickening and disgusting. I can see the damage which has been done to these people, and I can feel the pain behind it, but I think one has to consider one’s actions very well and one’s words as well, not to go on a similar level as the people criticized. In that way they are working for those they try to fight. They put themselves down with gossip, and I get the feeling they put themselves up. As a therapist, I can see the need for expression of strong feelings, and that those feelings are bitter and not very subtle, but going public it needs another stage in the dealing with the trauma. One must be very aware of one’s actions, not to be surprised by what kind of response one might get. There is a great danger that you point to somebody with one finger and don’t see that three fingers are pointing towards you.

    So here is a bit more of my story:

    In the mid 80’s, during my seven years with Rigpa and 4 years as founding director of a national Rigpa branch, I had slowly discovered that Sogyal Rinpoche had sex with very many disciples. Even though I was very close to SR, it took me some time to notice the obvious. Even though I am a professional counselor, it took me quite some time to notice it at all, and then it took me even more time to take action. First, at the same time I was shocked and kind of amused, I felt somehow mixed about it, because in the beginning I saw that some women tried to get him. First I thought, they are mature woman, they know what they are doing, and I simply am too inexperienced in the exotic ways of Tibetan Lamas to be able to judge. It was much later that I heard stories and saw things which were not based on consent, and saw that he was cheating all the time on the women. Also I noticed that he had sex with young students who just had come to Rigpa retreats for the fist time.

    There was the harem, and the women seemed to be able and ok with their role in the game. At least I wanted to believe this, still trying to see SR as a holy man. On the other side, I found always obstacles to consider SR as my guru. I considered myself at that time more as a Buddhist manager and some kind of assistant of SR than as a disciple of him. I could see Dilgo Khyentse or the Dalai Lama as true masters, but SR appeared to me always more as a teacher who teaches Buddhism, or many times as a salesman who sells Buddhism. When I was in power at my national Rigpa branch, I always extinguished most of the superlatives in the flyers. I said to SR: either you are true and good and people will find out themselves, or if not they will also find out. So don’t tell them what they should think or how good they should think about you. True quality will speak for itself. With me, he accepted such words, but I heard my successors had to put on the praise line again.

    Well back to the abuse subject:

    I confronted first jokingly, then half-heartedly Sogyal with my concerns about his behaviour, and I said to him that as a therapist I know about transference phenomena: students see the teacher as kind of a father figure, so sex with the student is psychologically seen as incest. Also, that in the West, the relationship between teacher and student, or priest and the parishioner, must be kept pure, and does not allow intimate relationships or involvement with sex in any way. He was not amused, and tried to avoid the subject, but he first tried to justify his sexual behaviour spiritually. First he said that because he is one of the incarnations of Padmasambhava, and that Padmasambhava had had many “spiritual consorts”, he would be somehow entitled to do so. Then he played the cultural card: in Tibetan culture women are seen as Dakinis, and they would happily serve the Lamas for enhancing their spiritual power and so on. I am ashamed, but first I wanted to believe all this. Raised in an over-sanctimonious, hypocritical catholic background, I was somehow trained for bending the truth, and trained to idealize and respect people of position even more than supposedly “holy” men. My spiritual and emotional hunger made be blind to my own values and my professional standards – at least where the standards of a Lama are concerned, not in my own work. For some years I was blind with my own position. I was together with other dear friends establishing a very well-working organisation to benefit many people. I was happy. I was in a very special position. I honestly tried to use my possibilities well. I felt I was chosen, and because of karmic connections with Sogyal, I was finally recognized in my full capacity. What the bitter irony is, because other students saw me as a rather independent, seemingly critical, and reasonable person, and because I am a psychotherapist, some people took me as a guarantee for trusting Sogyal. And I guess some people even envied my special access to SR. By that time I could no longer ignore what was happening. Once Sogyal wanted me to lie on the phone to a woman, who wanted to contact him after having had sex with him another day, because he was in bed with another one, but I refused. He became very angry and yelled at me, but I was not impressed. Basically, he treated me always very good. He seemingly respected me, but now I think he was clever enough to not treat me like some of his other main students. He gave me the feeling that he appreciated my views at least as long I helped him to please the audience and the students. But he never was open to criticism concerning his personal behaviour. Also, he never answered any of my personal spiritual questions. I got more and more the impression that he simply could not answer them. Also, when I attended sessions where he should answer questions by his students, he often gave very stupid answers, and showed that he had not much understanding of what people were really asking. Sometimes he ridiculed people.

    One of the worst things I experienced was at a winter retreat in Germany. A long term student of his was in emotional distress and asked in obvious pain and vulnerability and confusion for his help, and he forced her to speak louder and then to come forward to the stage where he put her completely down. In my view, he was totally afraid of her, and could not deal with the situation whatsoever. But instead of putting her into safe hands, he tried to save himself in putting her down and ridiculing her, and then played the strong teacher who can deal with everything. In the same night, we had to rush her to the emergency ward of the next psychiatric hospital with a nervous breakdown and a psychotic seizure.

    As a therapist and as a student, I was horrified by his behaviour and his complete lack of compassion and skill. Before I left Rigpa, an American woman told me confidentially and in great distress that she had just lost her husband and had come from US to France to SR to get help, and that SR, during a private audience, had tried to violently force her to have sex with him. Fortunately, she managed not to be raped. She left the retreat in even greater despair and completely shocked. This was the worst incident which I heard from firsthand.

    SR did not respect any limits: he had sex with most of the wives of the leading students at Rigpa. I tried to keep myself and my private life out of his. I tried not to mix with his affairs. Sogyal had a classical harem, and he knew all the tricks to make the obvious invisible, or if that did not work, to change the context of the students’ values, giving the whole thing a spiritual excuse, and abuse fears and naivety, or the good belief of his students to get what he wanted. It’s 12 years ago that I quit Rigpa, so I have no more first hand information of SR’s doing now, but I must say I have little doubt that everything is the same today, because I consider him an addict. He is hooked on sex and power.

    When I have more time I will write more professionally on the psychology of the guru-student relationship and of abuse. What interests me most is why people “agree” to be abused and what hinders them to see the truth. And how to help others to discover their own truth, and how to stop people like SR from going on.

    Please again this is confidential, and I will take action, but I will choose my own way according to my values and my autonomy. It is a painful process for me to look after all these years more deeply into my own behaviour and acts. I need my time so that I can be really of use for others who need help. Just acting without having my personal process at a certain point could do more harm than good.

    Thank you for listening, and it’s very good that you study the psychological background of what happened to you. You are very courageous. I hope that you can heal and learn from it and help others. Of course it would be easy to identify me quickly — maybe you have already — but the story is on trusting, so I trust you.

    and

    January 14, 2004
    After my private mail has been forced to the public against my will, which I consider a break of trust — Amlearning: your statement is not convincing, in my language there is a saying that the maybe good motivation of one’s action does not justify means which are contrary to this — nevertheless, I am giving hereby this statement:

    What I have written to Amlearning is true to the best of my knowledge. It was not intended to be posted. So if I had intended these letters to be posted I would have done so myself, and would have chosen a different, more deliberate way of expressing myself. Therefore, I regret that details of my personal story are public now which have not too much to do with the subject. I wrote a private communication in an informal emotional way. And my motivation was to support Amlearning in her struggle to free herself from the hurt she had suffered through “spiritual betrayal.” In my letters are some opinions and speculations about what is happening now, or how certain things appeared to me, and I must say again, since I have been out of Rigpa for 12 years, and I withdrew completely, I don’t know what went on later. When I said “young students,” I did not mean specifically young of age but new to the scene.

    When you start to call me a sick buddy, you most call all the people who don’t immediately understand what is going on sick. This would include yourself. What is sickening is the hidden structure behind it. I must say, I was — as obviously you yourself were at a given time — part of a mind altering system which has a strong emphasis on working with the emotions and the consciousness, which I did not understand for a long time. Even though I was in a position where I had organisational influence, it was not the case that I spent any length of time with Sogyal Rinpoche. I met him 2 -3 times a year at retreats or seminars, and then I was organizing things, after all, and I was not in his bedroom. And it worked in a way that even if you were around, you couldn’t really know what was going on. But there were hints, which now I consider to be too obvious, once you looked for it. Which means you had to have a reason to look for something. And it‘s not what you look for when you enter a spiritual community with respectable and bright people. But one should look very carefully for it. It‘s even said in the teachings to check the master, but then to trust him completely and surrender to him completely because he is the saviour.

    I was completely new and fascinated by TB and Rigpa, and was trusting for a long time that what has been told was the truth, and I had a very positive view of everything. And there were many wonderful things. There were really inspiring teachings, beautiful ceremonies, and a warm and comforting atmosphere. Rigpa was to me not a dark hellish place, but an inspiring one. Many teachings which I have received helped me to change my life for the better. Also, I met many really nice people whom I respected and loved, and with many I became good friends. Many people of good heart and intentions, some so pure that they did not notice the other side until today. I took them as a guarantee that the whole thing would be as pure as it looked like.

    It took me literally years to find out more, and frankly I did not look for something wrong, I wanted to be in a good place. So was my perception. But what I had to notice by the time was something I did not expect or I had no suspicion at that time: that Sogyal had sex with many female students. But knowing some of them, it seemed clear to me that they were doing this by their own choice. It bewildered me and made me think. But there were so many things on so many levels which I did not understand that this issue did not especially bother me much.

    To your disappointment I have to say that I was told by some of the women that they had an intimate relationship with Sogyal, but they did not feel bad about it. On the contrary, some were very happy about it. And some were really going for it. Even though they knew he had sex with many other women. Many were friends with each other. But as a man, I was outside this hidden world, and not directly involved, and I had no reason to judge it. It just was not my business, I thought. My belief then was that in that scene, maybe there were tantric things that appeared strange to me, but I thought maybe I just was not familiar enough with TB customs, and their ways of dealing with sex. Maybe it was a holy thing. Everything was so mystical – many things were confusing, and as I know now, some of the procedures obviously had motivations that I did not think of. Also, I must say, most of those women were in their mid or late twenties and thirties, and were women I respected. And I must say, I have no reason not to do so today. I don’t want to put them in any way in a bad light. I have no right to judge them, because I just don’t know what they got out of it. But I tell you I feel such a deep pain in my heart thinking about all this. I cannot avoid thinking that so many more people than women get fooled. There is this deep split: thousands of practitioners who really have good motivation and are practicing with their full heart. This is valuable and independent of the teacher who is fooling them. The heart of the teachings are true nevertheless and greater then the person who is teaching them. Many good results have come out. But this no excuse whatsoever for justifying betrayal. Spiritual betrayal, as well as abuse and sexual abuse, is soul murder and has an extremely high destructive power.

    So first I thought that it is none of my business. On the other side, as someone who knows about group dynamics and transference mechanisms, I had growing concerns about this. But for a long time I thought these “Western” concepts were not valid within this “spiritual” context. And this is something so many good-hearted people think: they trust to an extent which comes close to self-denial, but things are put into a seemingly “spiritual” context. It is a reframing of the values, so the bending of one’s own principles stays unnoticed because the frame of reference is dramatically changed once you enter another culture or belief system. It’s a paradigm shift, which you experience as confusion and losing the common ground. But many times it is experienced as relief and people get high on it, which later can eventually turn out to be a horror trip. That is the problem with mixing levels of meanings before you are an expert, you can be terribly fooled. But also many people don’t get fooled. They have common sense, and just go away. There happens a split in the consciousness, and common sense gets suspended on subjects which contradict one’s hopes and wishes. You just want to believe that everything is holy.

    Amlearning, when you entered into the thing with Sogyal, you had probably no wrong concepts of what was happening, but later you noticed something was not ok, but still you said that Sakya Trizin succeeded too in making you do things which you regret now and you are very angry about it. Is it not extremely disturbing now to look at yourself and see some of the mechanisms of the perpetrator, but also of yourself, how you got into this mess after all? Instead of calling me or yourself sick and a perpetrator, it would better serve the purpose of bringing light into this very, very dark side of our psyche, which is triggered by this situation, by not quickly turning against those people who got confused like yourself. In my view it would be better to really listen to them, and endure this emotional hardship to see how things work and how so many get fooled and hurt. Otherwise we are in danger, like others before us, of unwillingly establishing another authoritarian system.

    I said I don’t want to become a member of another sect, the anti-sect sect. My letter to you spontaneously came out from my own hurt, somehow stored away, by my disappointment and rage about what I had experienced and others like yourself had gone through in a much worse way. But as I said before, it is not enough to analyse the behaviour of the perpetrator without analyzing the victim, oneself, which touches extreme fears, pains and emotions, which may blind oneself for a time. It is most difficult to look at one’s own part in the story and for that you need great courage. By no means do I want to turn things around, but as a therapist I have learned to closely look at the possible reasons for an adult to become a victim. E.g., people who have been hurt in their own childhood by emotional or sexual abuse, or who have lacked enough love, are more vulnerable and in danger to be fooled in a normal relationship, even more by a wrong authority, because they have such a deep longing for salvation.

    Also as the Sufis say: God comes through a wound. So hurt people sometimes are closer to the spiritual quest than others. The wound has opened something, which often brings more suffering in the ordinary world, but also they are more likely to start their journey and become spiritual seekers. The horrible thing is that perpetrators have a kind of 6th sense to feel the weakness or the naivete of the victim, and misuse this capability for their own gratification. The sometimes desperate longing of a possible victim strongly includes the search to be perceived and accepted by others, especially by an authority, or by the seeming representative of God. So many of us would do almost anything for it. Even more when somebody tells you that he or she is the one who could lead you to enlightenment. What is there more to be offered in life? Is this not worth going for with full dedication? Could this be a reason to accept something which otherwise you would strongly oppose under other circumstances? And don’t we too quickly give our own responsibility away to somebody else whom we consider to be wiser or better than we are and empower them with the possibility to abuse us?

    This is what hurts me so much and which has been triggered by reading Amlearning’s first statements about herself and by writing spontaneously my letter to her. But what happened? I then experience the violence of being coerced in a public way I did not chose, which was disrespecting my announcement that I am considering engaging myself now into something which may help to stop abuse in the spiritual context. But you thought to be entitled to act differently and I strongly oppose that. By answering me first in a private mailing you gave me the feeling that I have the possibility to go my way in a manner which I feel appropriate . Well, I had to learn I had been too trusting and empowered you to do what you did. And even more quickly I was turned into a perpetrator myself. You and Odysseus made very quick judgments without knowing enough to do so. For the sake of what you try to do: be more careful and don’t fall so quickly into the behaviour which is described for narcissistic problems: seeing things only black or white. “You are for me or against me”, not to differentiate carefully what somebody has to say or how somebody acts, when you don’t understand instantly. Why not ask the person before you are so sure and hurt their feelings? It is a psychological mechanism that we are in danger to hurt others unwillingly where we are hurt most ourselves, because the hurt has an enormous strong energy (the life force itself) and pushes you into action. So this unconscious drive must be brought under your control by awareness. There is only a small step between healing emotional release and acting out ones own shadow triggered by the hurt.

    I do feel sorry that I was part of a something which has these horrible sides to it. But this is the risk I took. All religious systems are in great danger to abuse authority. Because religion is based on faith and belief, one has to have faith in the authorities. If you travel the mystical path, you are no longer in this warm comforting, cozy place of big groups and nice spiritual environment. You must go to the abyss of your own psyche and surrender to something which you may call your higher self or the divine core. In the mystical path there are no authorities except yourself, and all systems get scattered, all your beliefs are tested to the extreme. Not many are willing to undergo that. Actually I consider my own experiences which I describe here as part of such a process. I was forced to confront in a very deep way myself. Even by being coerced to this bulletin board thing. This does not justify what you did to me, but I have decided to make the best out of it. So you have the two sides. There are bad things happening which must be uncovered on the outside, and there is the inner work in learning and not missing the point of that experience. To make it clear, it is never good to be hurt, but if it happens then its wise to learn the lesson. This in my view is what is meant by “learning from the enemies”.

    I believe that for many this type of religion comes to an end and many things will and must happen to enable the individual to find direct contact to the divine nature without gurus. Still there will always be teachers but there are teachers who have integrity within and without TB. But this change does not happen by only visualising the light, one has to confront one’s own shadow, as C.G. Jung said. Otherwise narcissistic projections will lead to the abyss of total illusion and projection. Western insight and Eastern wisdom have to come to a new synthesis, which has already started many decades ago and is on its way. But the New Age has also a big shadow. When you clean, you have to confront the dirt, inside and outside. This must also very closely be observed by those who want to bring light into the darkness of spiritual and sexual abuse. And avoid self-righteousness. This could become another trip!

    Some final remarks on my story: I must clearly say that the incident with the grieving American woman was the first I heard of someone being forced into something. When I say “escaped from being raped,” I was referring to using psychological pressure or “spiritual“ pressure. Which makes it as horrible.
    I confronted Sogyal several times and even warned him that he was going to damage people and TB itself. Acting like this could be the second destruction of Tibet. Also everybody who wanted to know my reasons got them told. I did not hide. I was very open why I had left Rigpa. Many people in the Buddhist scene know about me and my reasons for leaving. It gave me turmoil about that. And a lot of silence. So put your verdict on me, if you think you have to.

    To the legal issue: It is 12 to 19 years ago. There must be people who are in the situation now who could report, who have first-hand experience. What happened in 1994 in California? Why was the case settled? I have never understood the US justice system. I have no reason to disbelieve the horrible stories of the victims. But: only the women who feel abused can bring it to court. Men could assist in giving them support. That is the procedure. I am a moral witness and a harsh critic of having sex with students, clients and so on. Religious systems always have been a great temptation to abuse the spiritual hunger of the people to abuse them politically or spiritually or even sexually.

    This is what I can contribute. I have decide many years ago to keep out of groups and not get entangled again. But I do work everyday in my way to help make things better. Buddhism and psychoanalysis have given me a lot, and independent seekers like Andrew Harvey are an encouragement to me. I will watch the scene.

    Oscar

    PS I just read that I am threatened with disembowelment = death in this forum. I will not return to this forum. What you know now is not what was known at that time.

    and

    January 18, 2004
    What Odysseus and others are remarking on my posts I must say gives me a lot to think about. I must say that those past two weeks have brought more uncovering of what was really going. So I want to take back my criticism of Ambu and Odysseus. Also I have understood that this forum is a place to express. And now I agree that this whole terrible subject needs strong expression, it is shaking me completely up and giving me sleepless nights. I appreciate Odysseus’ valuable remarks and I will continue to bring my thoughts to make things clearer. These past weeks have been extremely disturbing for me because I am confronted with horrible things going and even more with my own self-delusion and self-betrayal. But I see it as a healing process for myself and hopefully for many others. So I will take up the challenge : the doubts, criticism and pulling apart of my points of view, then and now. So I am in a strong inner process and some of my first remarks on criticism and morality in the forum are no longer valid.

    I am learning, Amlearning.

    The question why I did not make a public scandal at the time of my splitting up was that – believe it or not – it took me so much courage to leave. Actually, I was very scared and afraid then and I had to undergo therapy myself to get some of the fears and worries cleared. It made me not sleep and I was afraid of vajra hell ( you remember, I was raised with Catholic hell a lot). Well here I am at a point in my story, and you may think this is only an excuse or mostly self-justification which I am sure you will detect traces of anyway, but I think that by telling my story it could help to understand some of the psychology which keeps up abusive systems, but on the side of the people fooled.

    I found Amlearning’s quotation very useful. The expression soul murder I have from a German book on sexual abuse and incest in families. What does it mean: maybe it would be better to call it first psyche murder. What happens, and what makes it so destructive and hard to heal, is the fact that abuse and incest work by sneaking into the trust of the child. Most abuse is done within families or by friends and other close people who have relationships with the family of the victims or are even working with the children they abuse.

    They abuse the trust, the innocence and the dependency of the children to be able to abuse them. In the case of incest the children are completely trusting in a way which is completely unconscious: it is a mixture of biological drive (of self-maintaining) and true emotional love. And there is another mechanism in function: loyalty, which also works well blindly. Members of a family and also of groups automatically develop bonds. The more dependent a person is, be it physically like in a family or be it psychologically as in groups or relationships, the stronger the bonds. The horrible thing is that everything can establish bonds. Even to be a victim, it binds the victim psychologically to the perpetrator. This is so horrible, that just reading this will cause nausea. But it is a proven fact. Battered children and women very often psychologically cling in an extreme way to the perpetrator. In the victims’ therapy this is one of the most difficult issues for the victim to confront: that there are often feelings of love towards let’s say the father who has abused his own daughter. Hard to take, isn’t it. Even for a professional. Because it touches our deepest emotions and fears.

    There is another flaw in our psyche: we cannot really make a clear distinction between biological/physical fear and psychological fear. This creates a lot of problems. If you are scared “to death” you actually feel as if you are going to die. Remember your childhood: there was shadow behind the curtain, there was a story in a book, you trembled and called for mama. But there was no real physical danger. Fears always has a connection to the lifesaving part of our biological/ psychological system. This bonding mechanism is abused by the perpetrator.

    Also there are important aspects to mass psychology phenomena. People are drowning in the stream of the group’s unconscious psychology. This means, be it families, religious communities, nations, or any other type of group, belonging to a group unconsciously pulls you in to the specific values and codex of this group. It is a collective thing, and ultimately, the purpose of the group or the values of the group don’t really matter. It is a strong drive within man to belong to the group and not get thrown out because when we are born we are completely dependent, with our bare life belonging to the group, the family, or even just the mother. As babies we automatically try to do the best we can to adapt in a way that we are accepted and alive. Dependent on the psychological mechanisms of the family we grow up in a healthy, open, and trustworthy family. But in so many cases this does not happen. Parents have their own problems and there are many families where there is an atmosphere which is potentially dangerous for the child, perhaps even physically dangerous, but in most cases emotionally and psychologically. Many children “think” they will only be accepted if they completely surrender to the family system of their parents. They try to figure out what would be the prerequisites to be loved. So they try desperately to fulfill this, not knowing that they have a birthright to love just because they are here.

    So there starts one of the many vicious circles: ideally parental love should be more or less unconditional so the child feels well. (Of course in the limits of common sense, parents are not saints. Freud said children don’t need an ideal, perfect mother but a sufficiently good one). But so many parents are not able, and the extent to which they are able or not varies greatly, and also the effects it has on the child is dependent on the psychological strength of the child. So in a very brief and by far not complete manner, I try to make this point about spiritual groups: why do people go out and seek spiritually? In most cases, I suppose there is a combination of emotional need and spiritual hunger. But look at children. For them it’s the same. And when we are seemingly adults, the inner child is looking for something which has been missing. The real horror is that abusers (be it dictators or false gurus) know exactly how to manipulate the people in a way that they trigger people’s needs and get control over them, to get power. Actually, religion and mysticism have always been abused by manipulators to get the people. One half they get to believe them, and the others they oppress by rude methods. Power – sex- money: the trinity of power.

    I will not go into the psyche of the perpetrator here. I am interested in how people like you and me got entangled, and how it comes that others still are, and how to free ourselves and give information to others about what’s going on. The brainwashing effect of manipulating the emotions and even more so the spiritual needs of people is very, very strong. Once you have entered into this world it takes a lot to get out. Because the spiritual and emotional needs are so valuable but they get poisoned, almost unnoticed, quietly, sneakily, and the true emotions are spun into a cocoon of true things, of lies and manipulation. I said in my last post of how much many of us are willing to sacrifice in order to attain liberation. And as I painfully have to confess to myself, in some ways I still was under the influence of some long-lasting vein in my brain. Well you woke me up. Thanks for it.

    I have to stop here for the moment and will come back later and will also try to give answers to some of the raised questions.

    Oscar.

    Best regards

    oscar

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  95. “Mary witnessed Sogyal abusing others”

    What did she witness?

    Whether we like it or not, rudeness is not abuse. Having sex with other adults is not abuse.

    Abuse is abuse. If Mary witnessed abuse, she should have gone straight to the police, rather than send people private emails asking them to confide only in her rather than go public.

    I deeply feel the anti-Sogyal Rinpoche vitriole is trumped-up. No criminal charges have been brought against the teacher, yet thousands of online posts casually refer to him as if it’s a given that he’s an abusive criminal. This is sick, and against we as English/Irish/Americans allegedly stand for.

    The very fact that efforts to slander these people have to resort to fact-twisting, bait-and-switch article titles, and reliance on a single civil case which was dismissed, hint that there isn’t anything substantial to go on.

    I’m also really weary of the “X is bad!” “X is good!” “You’re bad for saying X is good!” garbage.

    For doing nothing more than giving my personal experience with Buddhism and questioning what I find questionable in the tabloidist internet articles, I have been accused (on Day 1) of being a “Rigpa spin doctor” (or something to that effect), a “brainwashed cult victim” and someone with an “axe to grind.”

    You might ought ask yourself why someone passing through this site on what I thought was a tangent would become so appalled at what she sees going on, as to drop many other things and dig into this. I mean, I’m not sorry I did, but if you’re looking to convert people to Anti-Sogyalists, it’s not having that effect.

    Mary, I would add that publishing the real story behind all this would probably get you a publishing deal, like, yesterday. Just something to ponder.

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  96. I’m sorry but the email you posted here is talking in a very general way.

    I disagree strongly about how Mary Finnigan has spoken about this issue. Her messages can be read on this blog. She uses ugly words, slanderous talk. Everybody who reads those posts, I turned away by the way she speaks. Contrary to what the person in email wrote, people do not trust her because of the way she speaks – slanderous talk. I’ve written here many times the list of issues I have with her.

    Victoria, I would appreciate if you answered the questions I asked – and not instead post generalized messages ‘from somebody’ out there.

    In the video you said SR also wanted to have ‘a quick lay’ with you. Could you please tell more about this event?

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  97. For the record, these are my thoughts about Mary Finnigan. The following is part of an email I recently sent to one of the people Sogyal sexually and physically abused, who contacted me after the documentary by Debi Goodwin, In the Name of Enlightenment, came out.

    http://www.earthbook.tv/religion/channelhome/channelvideos/148/678/

    When I wrote about being sexually abused by Sogyal and Sakya Trizin in 1999, I received death threats by email. I warned those who threatened me that I would report that kind of intimidation to the FBI.

    In the last 10 years, however, I did receive emails from other people who had been scammed or abused by Tibetan lamas or those in their centers. Finally, the tide is turning, people are sharing the truth with each other, breaking free of their fears.

    I can speak of courage regarding Mary because I’ve experienced it. During the time that I was helping Janice Doe in the mid 1990’s, Janice Doe asked me to speak to Mary, be interviewed by her for the BBC. Mary was the ONLY person talking about Sogyal’s abuses in public and doing that in spite of her feeling a profound connection with her own Tibetan teacher and having a Tibetan Buddhist practice.

    When I was abused for the umpteenth time by a Tibetan lama, in this case Sakya Trizin, in 1980, I became totally disgusted by ALL Tibetan lamas and generally by Tibetan culture, Tibetan anything. I tried to speak to lamas about Sogyal’s abuses but they told me I would go to “Vajra Hell” if I did. Then I spoke with a professor, Miranda Shaw, who I met in an airport, flying from Germany to NYC. I told her about the sexual abuses of Tibetan lamas but she never did anything about it, since she was writing a book about Tantra and women.

    But Miranda Shaw somehow spoke with Janice Doe and told her to call me and I helped Janice Doe for 2 years in whatever way I could to try and stop Sogyal from continuing his abuses.

    In 1999 I started using the web and put the words sexual abuse by Tibetan lamas into a search engine. Up came Mary Finnigan’s thread on a Buddhist site about sexual abuses by Tibetan lamas. She and her Tibetan Buddhist friend, Evelyn Ruut, were the only two people on the internet talking about this subject. Mary received incredible verbal abuses by the Buddhists on the internet, rage, criticism for speaking out about this and saying it was wrong. But she kept on speaking out about it.

    She created a website for victims of sexual abuse by Tibetan lamas and tried to put up testimonials but women who had been abused were afraid. She worked consistently on this for the last 11 years. She has not received fame or heaps of money for this. She wrote about this on the web intelligently, rationally, without being hysterical or rageful. She wrote about it as a journalist, in a steady, mature and adult way, which I think, brought credibility to the claims.

    She and Evelyn have supported me speaking out for the last 15 years and I appreciated that support because I felt utterly alone. No other victim of sexual abuse by a lama ever supported my speaking out, except them, even though this meant for Mary that she has been hated for speaking out and supporting those who speak out against sexual abuses by Tibetan lamas.

    MANY women – men and children too- have been sexually abused by cult leaders of all kinds. And most of those claims are dismissed by society who sees the victims as fools. But in the case of the abuses by Tibetan lamas, the Dalai Lama has the entire world’s sympathy as being a Good Person. So Tibetans are idealized and Tibetan Lamas idealized even more.

    Mary has repeatedly confronted the Dalai Lama’s reputation, in writing on the web, because he has supported Sogyal. For Mary to speak out about the Dalai Lama’s support of Sogyal has taken courage, not only in the Buddhist community but also as a journalist.

    […]

    Mary witnessed Sogyal abusing others and that was enough for Mary to know he was and is a dangerous cult leader. Not everybody who is betrayed and speaks out about an abuser has to be raped and beaten personally. It was enough for her that she saw Sogyal abuse other people, which is a lot better than countless other devotees, who saw the abuses and said nothing, remain silent. She spoke out, consistently for many years in spite of her religious faith, her belonging to the Tibetan Buddhist community. I think that is courageous.

    Just because I do not like the Tibetan Buddhist community does not mean that I expect everybody to have my own opinions.

    What I do know is that breaking free of a cult is hard to do. One is not likely to get support from the other cult members. The cult community is packed full of gossip and intrigue. That is part of how a cult works.

    I’m glad you broke free [xxx] and very sorry that you suffered the abuses that you endured. You have every right to be angry at the abuser and those who endorse or support the abuser in any way.

    Sending you my affectionate good wishes and encouragement […]

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  98. skye dman is an old-fashioned term, much like the English “weaker sex.” The modern words for woman (also used in historic times) are bud med (honorific term for women) and skye ma, female being. skye mo is also used.

    dman in fact means “weak, modest,” bringing it very close to Western terms of yore.

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  99. I have known my best friend prior to Rigpa, so there’s no agenda between us.

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  100. I’m just a single person, a female. My very good friend (or my best friend) is working in Lerab Ling and he is the only person in the world I trust completely. (Sometimes people think I criticize all men, but since I happen to know him, I believe there are others with a backbone and worthy of trust.) He was in the three year retreat too. He knows a lot of Rigpa people and he knows them well. Rigpa inner circle is not gossip free area. He has never seen or heard Rinpoche behaving morally wrong. Rinpoche is at times behaving in a way that causes a stir, but he is not immoral. My friend has grown to trust SR completely. (And my friend is not weak person, but a really capable and independent person – has always been. We both happen to like freedom, that is why I think we are both Buddhist and that is why we enjoy each others’ company.)

    I know him, I don’t know MF nor V. Barlow. I trust my friend more than gossips of today in the internet. I don’t know if many people have such a friend they would count on any moment of their existence. I have him, the worker in Rigpa, and I’m most grateful.

    My trust in Sogyal Rinpoche… I have spoken with many close students. Even though I don’t know them that well, I have also spoken with my best friend about those people – and he has shed some light about those people I’ve spoken to. I have no reason to doubt their testimonials about SR.

    I have an issue about men in general: bad experiences when I was 18-23 (tender age, lost trust in men for almost 10 years). I guess that is why I’ve hung around in this page too. When I hadn’t yet heard about the accusations, for the first year in Rigpa, I was completely happy. I KNEW I had found what I had been looking for many years. I had the inner certainty. Then the gossips struck me, I became suspicious but I didn’t leave Rigpa. I spoke with people. Since trust is an issue for me, those gossips hit me harder than some other people. I kept my eyes open, found nothing bizarre.

    Sometimes when I have a question in my heart, I talk about it to the friend of mine in retreats. Then in a few days Sogyal Rinpoche answers my questions and it has happened on every retreat. (My friend is not chit chatting with SR about my ‘issues’). Nobody asked SR about the accusations, but I was really asking ‘in my mind’ about the accusations from him. Since he is said to be a clairvoyant (and through my experiences he seems to be) he just said without nobody asking about it: “I don’t harm anybody!”

    You can call me a religious lunatic, a cult member or what ever you want. I just talk about my experience and I’m not alone with my experiences. Many people have had similar experiences. I think I have also gotten a glimpse of the all pervasive love (the experience lasted for 5 minutes or so, it was not instant) in one retreat. It felt exactly like in some of the descriptions: love without object, love without grasping, just like an ocean of love that goes through me. I believe I had that experience because of the intense practice we did for 10 days and because of the blessings of the teachings I received from SR. Prior to the experience I also saw 2 strong dreams at night and I woke into them.

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  101. No, the word for woman in Tibetan is kye-men (skye.dman), which translates as inferior birth. It has NOTHING to do with dog. At all. Different spelling. the word in Tibetan for dog is kyi, not kye, which means life.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=L09yvr4VgHcC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=skye.dman&source=bl&ots=4YHy32z6Cb&sig=VWkVxbyGQ8hyA3Rd7wo_WyzDeR4&hl=en&ei=eILSTqbUNMT30gH_tanpBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=skye.dman&f=false

    http://books.google.com/books?id=hZNeGIKHXFEC&pg=PA184&lpg=PA184&dq=skye.dman&source=bl&ots=MQTMPGP9d7&sig=jWdJE6xdeuooDJ4fL_IirsZCuIk&hl=en&ei=eILSTqbUNMT30gH_tanpBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDAQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=skye.dman&f=false

    Moderator Note: Please try to restrict your comments to only one weblink per comment. Add more will cause your comment to be placed in a moderation queue which will delay your comment from appearing.

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  102. One thing I am sure as hell fed up with: the constant whining about the Tibetan word for “woman”: it means “not a dog”! Sounds good to me!

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  103. “The Sogyal Rinpoche I know today, is not behaving in the manner you speak. If he ever did, he has learnt his lesson. Last year he said loud on a retreat (because of the gossips in the internet): “I’m not harming anybody.”

    Bella, up thread you said you weren’t a very avid student of Rigpa, but now you are claiming pretty intimate knowledge about what he does out of sight of the Rigpa retreats. You interrogate anyone who claims knowledge, yet accept at face value that Sogyal’s claim he didn’t harm anyone means it’s a fact?

    2nd question-are you a conglomerate of different Rigpa students who write as Bella? Your English today is appalling (no offense meant) yet sometimes you write really well, but drop in odd words to make you sound you don’t -like ‘conversate’

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  104. I have met and/or received teachings from a decent-sized list of Tibetan Buddhist teachers.

    Not a single one has made me feel uneasy or threatened. Advanced tantric practices were not the subject of the teachings–not anywhere, not anytime.

    There are several hundred active attendees of my local gompa, most of whom have taken additional teachings from teachers I have not met; this brings the total number of Tibetan teachers my community has been exposed to near the hundred+ range, spanning three decades.

    Sex has never come up in my presence. I guess I can ask my fellow gompa-ites, but in all these years, they’ve never brought up sex, either, so I’d be the first to do it. It’s just not a focus. Probably because we have so much else to focus on.

    Your experience reflects sex at every turn. I don’t know what to say except that the statistics do not add up.

    I guess the short answer is that ones personal experience will always carry the most weight in determining ones beliefs. I simply don’t believe that my gompa is a puritanical island of asexual booklearning while the rest of the Tibetan world is having alcohol-soaked orgies.

    Question: does anyone hear know whether Mary Finnigan has changed her position on HH Sakya Trizin?

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  105. Victoria Barlow, I’m pleased you show up here.

    How do you know Janice Doe speaks the truth? Like one can see even here that there are ‘many realities’ people live in.

    “The thought on the part of Janice Doe and myself was not financial gain but to try and put an end to Sogyal’s abuse of other women. ”

    Big question: “Why was it settled?” How did you think it would effect if you settle?

    Were you in the room when SR and Janice Doe discussed with the layers about the settlement?

    The Sogyal Rinpoche I know today, is not behaving in the manner you speak. If he ever did, he has learnt his lesson. Last year he said loud on a retreat (because of the gossips in the internet): “I’m not harming anybody.”

    I don’t know the Tibetan customs of treating women and if ‘beating’ or slapping is forbidden in their culture. Of course it’s forbidden here and should be everywhere.

    I can’t believe that Janice Doe was going to talk with him as a student – and after revealing her problems SR would have insisted on sex and also beaten her. I just don’t believe in this *picture*. Was Janice a random student or a long-term girlfriend?

    I have spoken to an older student (30 years as a student of SR) who also worked as a masseur to him. She met his girlfriends. She never heard they had been badly treated. SR neither made any sexual advances on her.

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  106. Darling Victoria, I was talking about monks andsoforth who smile andsoforth to the one who pays (donates) most.

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  107. Whores who expect a million dollars? What are you talking about?!

    Sogyal tricked a grieving woman, Janice Doe, into sex, saying it would cause her recently deceased father to reincarnate in a better life. Sogyal also physically beat her.

    When Janice Doe finally realized she was being connived by Sogyal, she reached out to anybody who would hear her, that Sogyal was an outright abuser. One of those people she called was me. She and I thought how we could do something to stop him from abusing other women? We passed out fliers, tried contacting the National Organisation for Women. Finally, a well known cult buster contacted a lawyer, who said that Sogyal had committed a breach of fiduciary duty, basically committed sexual abuse while he was in a professional position as a teacher.

    To the best of my knowledge, for a lawyer to make a lawsuit they must state damages that have been experienced by the plaintiff (the victim of the crime). Those damages need to have a monetary value and be expressed in real life ways, not ‘merely’ emotional damages. So the lawyer set the value of the damages. The thought on the part of Janice Doe and myself was not financial gain but to try and put an end to Sogyal’s abuse of other women.

    I never saw a penny from that lawsuit and I do know that when a lawsuit is set at millions of dollars, a tiny fraction of that amount is usually what a settlement is in the final result. Feel free to ask a lawyer about that being typical in million dollar lawsuits.

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  108. And, Yes, I am EXTREMELY angry about this. I have offered Orgeyn Trinley *many* opportunities to make up for all of this, but #nothing#. I was in India to study Tibetan & the dharma. I am a published and respected scholar. If there are any whores, it is them, who smile and expect 1 million dollars in return for it.

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  109. I am doing this because I want to eradicate the habit existing in Tibetan buddhism of getting rid of people for almost arbitrary reasons by killing them. Please see my previous posts here and/or the info in my Notes on my FB-account “Jelly Dorje”, as well as the FB Photo Album “In Memoriam” of that FB-account. Two of the Orgyen Trinleys have come to me in lay clothes begging me to host them (1997, 2002) in my hotel / home in India. They have tried to poison me over this. Moreover, I have lost two neat & cheap retreat places & many opportunities to receive teachings over this. I believe I was branded as a slut child-rapist because a teenager Orgyen Trinley had sent an American adult to convince me to take him to my hotel-room, claiming he was an 18-year old tourist guide. etc. etc. etc.

    I think it is insane that a woman that sleeps with Sogyal receives 10 million dollars, whereas a woman that an Orgyen Trinley had set his mind on (he came with Trogawa R. to Dordogne a few months after) apparently deserves to be poisoned. IT IS EVIL and *worse* than *moslem mores*, where a woman can get killed for liking a guy. In Tibetan Buddhism, apparently, a woman can get killed for being liked.

    I think this is evil and I want it to be changed.

    Also, do not want to be framed by a multitude of guys of several ages who all pretend to be Orgyen Trinley.

    Is that clear?

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  110. Victoria Barlow here. If anyone has a question to ask me directly, feel free to do so.

    I suspect this Sheila person is somebody with an axe to grind. Likening my outing sexual abuses by Tibetan lamas to neo-Nazis? What?

    As it happens I grew up in a severely dysfunctional family with a violent and perverted biological ‘mother’. This is well documented, not only by myself but also other members of my family, has been written about in the newspapers and a fairly thorough Vanity Fair magazine, which are readable online.

    http://www.american-buddha.com/cia.lucefamilysecretshame.htm

    Typical of childhood abuse survivors I did not, in my young adulthood, make wise decisions about who was trustworthy and who was not until I started going to therapy, when I was in my early 30’s in the mid 1980’s. I arrived in India at the age of 21 in 1975. I left when 32 at the end of 1985.

    Unfortunately, before therapy in my 30’s I trusted a number of untrustworthy people, including Tibetan lamas. The lamas who betrayed my trust were particularly despicable in their treachery, because I turned to the Buddha dharma in the first place to learn about truth, compassion, loving kindness, morality, integrity and wisdom. I already knew conniving people existed in the world but I didn’t expect them to be people who said they were teachers of the Holy Dharma.

    Buddhist teachers, Tibetan lamas, who said they were teachers of truth, were more often than not just charlatans. I also saw my fellow students completely bamboozled by fantasies that what the lamas were doing, in taking sexual advantage of female Western dharma students, was “enlightened”, “crazy wisdom” or “blessings”.

    Trungpa Rinpoche had notorious sexual liaisons with his students in Boulder, followed by his “Vajra Regent’s” fiasco of knowing full well he had AIDS but having unprotected sex with at least one student, who subsequently died (in my opinion that is basically murder).

    Just one example of the many hurtful experiences I heard or knew about in the 10 years I lived in India: A good friend of mine went to Tashijong to get the blessings of her root guru, Khamtrul Rinpoche. While there she was tricked into having supposedly Tantric sex with one of Khamtrul Rinpoche’s yogis (ngakpas). The ngakpa was married at the time and when my friend got pregnant (his sperm was not Tantrically witheld) he made her vow never to tell anyone in his community that he was the father and that he had cheated on his wife. This had tremendously negative effects on my friend’s and her son’s lives. Her family utterly rejected her and her bastard child. The Tibetan community reviled the half-breed child. It was hell for both the mother and child. A lifetime of misery that has had a devastating, ongoing impact on her son.

    Sexual abuse by Tibetan lamas does not only impact the woman who gets taken advantage of, it’s also a deep wound for the woman’s boyfriend or husband, as a number of women I knew were in committed relationships at the time ‘their lama’ said it was their sacred duty to participate in sex with the lama. This was the case with Janice Doe, who was in a committed relationship (I think married at that time), when Sogyal convinced her that if she had sex with him it would cause her recently deceased father to have a better rebirth.

    In the case of June Campbell, ‘her lama’, Kalu Rinpoche, supposedly a monk, actually ordained her as a nun before he told her to have sex with him and then to have sex with his nephew. How revolting is that, ordain your female translator as a nun, then screw her and get your relative in on the act. Betrayal after betrayal.

    I can swear in a court of law and am willing to do so, that the Tibetan lamas I said sexually abused me, really did. I have legally sworn to that effect that in the case of Sogyal.

    This year, when Sakya Trizin was in NYC this summer I confronted him directly, in person and in public, where others could hear. He did not deny anything, he was only silent. He and I know he tricked me into having sex with him and then, ever after, was obsessed only in talking about sex with me, not the dharma or meditation. That was for me, in 1981 the final straw. I turned away from anything to do with Tibetan lamas, I could not make any more excuses for their grossly ignorant and hurtful actions.

    Yes, I was a fool to have trusted the Tibetan lamas to whom I prostrated myself before as holy teachers of the sacred dharma. I should never have been so foolish! I was a fool to trust one lama after the other, hoping beyond hope that this time the lama would be trustworthy.

    But when I woke up to the betrayals, finally, I was able to stand up for others, speak out to help Janice Doe and hopefully to help prevent other women – or men – for that matter from being taken advantage of in the way I was.

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  111. Giulia, I’ve been attending Buddhist teachings, including those at my local temple, for around ten years now, and have never been threatened with hell or any other punishment.

    In fact, the last time I had hell brandished in my direction was at St. Patrick’s courtesy of dear Father Bill’s Easter service. Somehow he managed to take the rather uplifting lesson on Lazarus, which I’d just heard earlier that morning at a Lutheran service, and turn it into…well, let’s just say the soles of my feet started feeling warm.

    There are no threats, harems, beer parties, or black magic sessions at my gompa. There are extensive teachings on Lamrim, Atisha’s works, etc., with Geshe Lhundup Sopa, Geshe Tenzin, Khensur Rinpoche, and many other great teachers, as well as regular pujas and Tibetan community events. There is a Tibetan after-school program, and a family dharma class organized by parents. There are weeding and cleaning parties. One of my most treasured memories is being shown how to take all the hundreds of little ladybugs, whether dead or alive, very carefully out of the temple and blow mantras on them before putting them in the garden. I thought, “Wow, I’ve come home.”

    HHDL has come to Madison many times, and also not threatened any of us with hell or black magic.

    Our dear Yangsi Rinpoche also gave many wonderful teachings, and also never threatened any of us.

    I just can’t help feeling this online roasting is something other than genuine. There are far too many great and respected names on the hit list, and people know better. Any of you doing this with dishonorable intent ought to be ashamed of yourselves for creating clouds of confusion which will very likely obscure real issues, and could very possibly put women in danger, for reasons I have already mentioned.

    Neither the survival of the CCP nor the defensive image-polishing of the Church are ends which justify the deceitful slandering of good people.

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  112. :)

    What Indian food can do to you? Even ‘ordinary people’ get poisoned by Indian food. It’s just so dirty.

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  113. Anon wants to “preserve the Buddha’s teaching by rooting out latter day charlatans” . Please note how it are at least three different young men who share the job of “17th Karmapa Orgyen Trinley Dorje from Sidhbari” (some of them nowadays have added the name “Drodul” — which I gave to one of them in about 2004) who take shifts at several places — even in USA this summer we have seen at least two different ones at work —– why is this? Are they all sons of lama such and so and therefore must have equal chance on glory & money? Are they not able to endure (celibate?) ‘house arrest’ for more than 3 or 4 months in a row?

    *Please note* that some of these Orgyen Trinleys seem to be listening over the head-set to what is being dictated to them, both during teachings & when answering questions by whatever lama that is. I personally have an idea about who that could be. Interpol should check this: We are being framed massively.

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  114. Another list I am interested in is: Who are thieves (for purpose of acquisition or purpose of use of objects for black magic); Who are practitioners of black magic (list probably very, very long); Who threaten their disciples will hells andsoforth — it would be interesting to make a collective of people and to hire someone to tour dharma-centres to attend teachings and to check this & more & make reports on this.

    Some people say: “Such and so is demonizing Tibetan lamas”. But suppose one is pointing out one or two catholic bishops mentioning their misdeeds, Does one demonize the whole catholic church? etc. etc.

    Like

  115. “…an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it”

    What if a neo-Nazi claims the local black schoolteacher is a thief, and furthermore, that neo-Nazi is found to have accused other black townspeople–and only black townspeople–of being thieves?

    It is fair and logical to take the negative characteristic (racism, in this case) of the accuser into account.

    Likewise, if someone has spent several decades accusing a large number of individuals of abusing them, it is fair to ask whether it is logical that the accuser would be abused that many times by that many different people.

    If someone claimed to have survived ten airplane crashes, it would be fair to question the logic and likelihood of such a series of events; it doesn’t mean it isn’t true, but it is completely within reason to question and investigate.

    If, at the eleventh crash claim, someone responds, “This person claims to have crashed ten times before,” I think it is forgivable for, say, law enforcement, to not investigate the eleventh claim as carefully, especially given that any investigation of one thing takes time away from another.

    After reading Victoria Barlow’s long list of abusers, for example, I find myself less and less convinced that even one story is truthful, much less all of them.

    None of my sangha’s behavior matches the scandalous picture Mary Finnigan and Victoria Barlow seem to strive to portray. There would be really nothing to write about the monks at my temple; they are decent, patient, hardworking guys who answer endless questions from us students, on their own time, and often at the expense of their lunch. In journalistic terms, they would be described as “boring.” Which doesn’t make for headlines.

    Like

  116. Plus: I am not only interested in “justice”, moreover in “locking up murderers” (this is not according to the Tibetan ‘tradition’, but must be changed imo), and also in seeing some effects on my bank-account as two of my cars have been sabotaged and I have been poisoned quite some times w/o me having divulged any detail about anything at all, due to which I lost my concentration & thus possibilities to earn money.

    Like

  117. NB I know a few other ones who can be put on Finnigan’s list (5 x), but I am not interested in that list. The list that interests me is: Who kills for purpose of own interest — whether it has to do with -knowing due to own experience such and so is not a monk; knowing that a sibling of someone who pretends to be a monk is not a sibling; knowing that someone who claims to be pro-DL practices DS in secret; having other prophecies about Karmapa-issue or other; being ‘liked’ by an ‘important’ lama that others wish to have as a son-in-law or brother-in-law; etc. I am interested in the list: “Who is a murderer?”

    Like

  118. An ad hominem (Latin for “to the man” or “to the person”), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it. Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a ‘logical fallacy’
    As a matter of polite and effective discourse, comments should not be personalized. That is, they should be directed at content and actions rather than people.

    Like

  119. NB “Karmapa” should be on list doubly or triply: if he likes a girl, she gets killed, unless she can pass for a sibling

    Like

  120. That’s the difference between observing an individual action, or a pattern of actions; if you are observing a pattern, at some point you have to say who’s pattern you’re observing.

    One could replace [name] with “reporter x,” and so forth, but that doesn’t really help present arguments clearly. Given that obfuscation and confusion are part of the problem in this case (as in most cases), it’s probably clearest to use names, even if that runs the risk of offending.

    Would you, for example, tell a victim not to name their abuser? It’s clear that there is a correct time and place for clearly naming the subject of an investigation, whether that investigation is into genuinely alleged abuse, or alleged agenda.

    Like

  121. In this case, however, the negative characteristics of the person in question are in fact the subject of investigation.

    If someone claims, “Mary Finnegan’s published articles have proven accurate and fair,” and another points out articles they feel are not accurate and fair, that is not an ad hominem, but simply an observation (which itself can be debated).

    Like

  122. An ad hominem (Latin for “to the man” or “to the person”), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it. Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a ‘logical fallacy’
    As a matter of polite and effective discourse, comments should not be personalized. That is, they should be directed at content and actions rather than people.

    Like

  123. What about the influence of the Tibetan Buddhist teachings in our Western culture?

    That subject would be
    a) more challenging: widespread influence and in what areas, small influence and in what areas of society
    b) more hopeful perspective

    i would leave all these subjects to the researchers though. Her own ‘research’ doesn’t reach credibility.

    Now that also explain why she keeps ‘the dossier’ to herself and why she wants exclusive interviews from the victims. It’s her CAREER.

    Then she looks puzzled asking why she is the soul target for us? It’s her exclusive right to be the holder of the teachings by Mary Finnigan.

    She attracted a few followers.

    SR attracted many more.

    “There must be something wrong…!” she thinks.

    She is not a Buddhist, she is not a Buddhist teacher but a biased critic and therefore a poor journalist.

    I think it’s best not to give anymore time from our lives for her ‘stories’ since I don’t even like them.

    Like

  124. Perhaps it can be explained by Mary Finnigan’s statement in 1999:

    “I should emphasise that my work is not specific to sexual
    misunderstanding. It’s comprehensive perspective is:
    The influence of Tibetan lamas in western society.”

    Now that’s interesting. Not Mongolian, not Japanese, not Korean – Tibetan lamas. Just Tibetan.

    Why?

    There’s only one force in this world I can think of that gives a hoot, specifically, about “the influence of Tibetan lamas in western society.”

    When you overlay this self-declared goal with the facts, the goal that is then revealed is, “Find Tibetan lamas who are influential in western society, and knock them down. Make an exception for Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.”

    I think the perverted math goes something like, “One ‘lama’ = thousands of followers i.e. automatic Tibet sympathizers. Knock down the lama, knock out thousands of Tibet sympathizers.”

    Kind of like a propaganda shortcut.

    Like

  125. Wow. This really is incredible. Mary has been engaged in pretty much the same exact cycle of internet frenzy since 1997 (a long arc, for the internet!) The cycle is something like, “Praise teacher, study with teacher, accuse teacher via anonymous informant of “sexual abuse,” excoriate anyone happy with teacher, move on to next teacher, start over.”

    I don’t get it. What is the point.

    Like

  126. To be fair to Mary regarding the NKT issue, she is also on-record speaking out in 1996 against what she believes to be harmful actions on their part:

    “The NKT people chanted the Dorje
    Shugden rite outside the Dalai Lama’s HQ in London — which
    in my view is like chanting Heil Hitler at the Wailing
    Wall. HH is a saintly man — one of the few people alive on
    our planet today who is a shining example of non-violence
    and enlightened wisdom. He has stated that Shugden practice
    is injurious to him — so it seems to me that the NKT,
    under whatever disguise they assume at any given moment —
    mounted a direct attack on the Dalai Lama that day and knew
    exactly what they were doing. I find this action contrary
    to everything I have ever learnt and experienced about
    Buddhism, one of the basic tenets of which is to avoid
    causing harm to living beings. “

    Like

  127. But it’s all fairly moot, since she repeats many of the allegations in print (often The Guardian).

    Like

  128. Lol you’re tying your logic in knots. The accusations, which you say are true, came via Mary Finnigan on the internet. If you say my story of Mary Finnigan’s posts aren’t true, then you’re saying the accusations she makes in the posts aren’t true.

    Like

  129. and your evidence for that is, what ? something off the internet. when it comes to making an accusation, info on the internet is ok.
    when someone makes an accusation, it couldn’t possibly be true, as it’s
    on the internet. do I see double standards?

    Like

  130. Is she also hitting Namkhai Norbu? I thought she is a student of his. How did you figure out about Dilgo Khyentse?

    Interesting thou that she doesn’t criticize Geshe Kelsang Gyatso…

    Like the Buddhist lamas were the worst demons on the planet? She accepts payments for her ‘talk’…

    Like

  131. So, according to my very depressing research in the past weeks, Mary Finnigan’s hit list is as follows:

    removed
    Sogyal Rinpoche
    Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche (are you serious???)
    Namkhai Norbu
    HH Karmapa
    HH Dalai Lama (subtle, but very obvious)
    the Reincarnation of Ling Rinpoche

    Not on the list are:

    Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
    the Chinese Panchen

    I don’t know whether to happy or sad that it’s so obvious.

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  132. So did Mary build a strong case against removed? I mean, how do we know what she is saying is false?

    She spent a great deal of time bringing allegations against removed, a great deal of time collecting witness statements, a great deal of time putting all of this out onto the internet. In fact, it looks like her campaign lasted at least two or three years.

    I don’t see why she would spend all this time trying to get removed “fired” if she didn’t have a reason, correct? This is the first time in my life I have ever heard anything negative about removed.

    Like

  133. When the critic’s say any number of things that are easily and verifiably untrue or omit important facts as we have consistently seen in this thread, it makes the other stuff that we can’t easily know suspect.

    What is incredible is the myopic vision of some of the people here. Do you really think that in the Buddhist world the only people that know anything about this situation are either Mary or a Rigpa insider? The Tibetan Buddhist world is very small and the number of degrees of separation between those with differing views is probably less than three on average (on face book it is estimated that the number of degrees of separation between yours is less than five).

    Over here in the US, many Buddhist practitioners take a very dim view of what you guys are trying to do.

    Like

  134. Since when does undermining critics make what they say untrue? You seem to know quite a lot-wonder how?

    Like

  135. Pointing out the obvious… Since when does anonymous, internet postings count as evidence? Anyone who thinks it does, is suffering from “lynch mob-itis”.

    Nothing has been said under oath or subject to cross examination. The stuff you read here is a scurrilous attempt at going around our system of jurisprudence.

    And since some of you are still pathetically clinging to the charade that Mary is some kind of Tibetan Buddhist practitioner and therefore would never disobey her teacher.

    Ask her what Namkhai Norbu thinks about her activities.

    Ask her what His Holiness the Sakya Trizin thinks about not only accusing Sogyal RInpoche irresponsibly of all manner of inappropriate behavior, but tying Sogyal Rinpoche to the Dalai Lama in the “documentary”.

    And let’s not even get into the fact that she was also Sogyal Rinpoceh’s student for a time.

    Like

  136. Janice Doe -case was ‘cancelled’ in my eyes. There’s no real evidence there. She could have been as reliable as Barlow for all I know. If something serious had happened she would have been a coward to let SR continue.

    “Kelly” – was she the ex-girlfriend of a friend of JB(?), who was here? JB seemed unstable as a person, so I wouldn’t count on him.

    Do you have a source for Janine Dubois and Deidre S?

    I have never heard of them.

    Like

  137. The video is not the only source of evidence. Janine Dubois, Janice Doe. ‘Kelly’., Deirdre S……and thats with two minutes research on the web. How many would a little digging uncover?

    Like

  138. Has the number increased? Give some real evidence of this.

    In the video there are

    – Mary Finnigan, who hasn’t be abused, but uses abusive language and owns “the dossier” of names

    – Victoria Barlow, whom some think as unreliable.

    – Mimi, who is a young female I know nothing about. I’m just curious why she chose the nickname “Mimi” while there is a real long term student called Mimi, that Rinpoche addresses occasionally. If “Mimi” has been in Rigpa for a few years she would know the real Mimi probably personally, if they were both close students of SR. Since it is said that “Mimi’s” father was on the 3 year retreat, I would assume the father was there first and the daughter followed. Maybe the daughter didn’t like it after all? I have no idea what is the story behind “Mimi”. At times people have mental difficulties, also in Rigpa. I don’t say she has, since I don’t know her, but I can’t say either that she hasn’t. Just the company she keeps (MF and Barlow) doesn’t really convince me of her sincerity. She could be a good person, but I don’t know her.

    I have seen and know a few close students of SR, who are pretty down to earth, and I also know how SR takes care of them. Some of them are couples and SR cares for both of them, not just the female. Many speakers are women too, so they are not treated as ‘low’ and ‘usable’ objects, like some perhaps assume. It is also so that they haven’t left Rigpa, even though “Mimi” has.

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  139. Victoria Barlow is, IMO, an unreliable witness.However, the case against Sogyal is not dependant on her testimony alone; a number of women have continued to make the same sorts of allegations for decades. If one person says something, one can perhaps take it with a pinch of salt. When two say it, there is the possibility that they are in collusion. However, when that number continuously increases as time passes and the testimonies are printed in the Press repeatedly and repeatedly go unchallenged, the conclusion is obvious. Guilty To conclude anything else would be illogical Captain

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  140. Beau, of course it’s good if someone can offer teachings for low cost. Then there are others who have to pay for the bills of the centers.

    Of course it makes one feel bad if one can only attend the low cost events (doesn’t mean the quality is low), but one can attend Rigpa courses too and ask for a reduced price.

    If you want to compare prices, compare Rigpa with similar center like Chanteloup. http://www.chanteloube.asso.fr/

    I think a day in Lerab Ling costs around €20 too, food is extra.

    Why one has to make a conspiracy, abuse story out of everything?

    Like

  141. I don’t want to be nasty, but I didn’t come across this article before:

    http://www.american-buddha.com/pervert.irapedlucekid13.htm

    I’m very sorry for her tragic life story. I happen to know a woman who was sexually abused by her step father. I know her since we were friends during high school age. She is really messed up in her head, suffers from manic-depression, has sexual and shopping addictions. She has worked as a part time prostitute, all her boyfriends and the ex-husband were violent or abusers. Her marriage was filled with power games, jealousy, alcoholism and lies. After some time she started to tell lies also to me. Slowly our friendship died, since I couldn’t stand watching the scene, fearing for her life and listening to the lies.

    If Barlow is anything like my ex-friend, I do not consider her witness reliable. Especially when Anon-la already said she lied. It’s tragic, deeply tragic, but one has to seek help and not continue the lies and deception. I feel sad for people who have been abused, but I also know the other side of the story. It seems almost impossible to change life course after these traumatic events, but many have succeed.

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  142. Urr, If MF is the enemy of ST, how come her last article in the Guardian contained an advert for his teachings?

    “Her articles don’t include any positive news about Buddhism”. Obviously you havent read her last article-It is positive about the good bits and critical of money making schemes.

    However, I repeat, the article contained a definite plug for ST and even linked to his traditions webpage??

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/nov/18/buddhism-debt-crisis?INTCMP=SRCH

    Like

  143. Some people here said MF is a student of Sakya Trizin. Obviously it’s not the case.

    If you read a few articles by MF, you’ll see how little positive there is. Yet she claims to be a Buddhist. Her focus is on the criticism about Buddhism. Why? Can’t she see colors? In her youth she found Shangri-la, now it’s all hell.

    She gets to write articles in the Guardian. She should think a bit what she writes. Are there many others who write to news papers about Buddhism? I guess not too many. Her articles don’t include any positive news about Buddhism. How come she lost all the hope and good will?

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  144. Nothing incriminating about that (‘ I cannot accept that ALL the rumours and allegations are untrue’=I am not saying they are all true). but keep up the attempt to discredit Sogyals critics by associating them with criticism of reputable teachers-someone is bound to fall for it sooner or later. Great work ‘bella’ (the fella?) How much do you get paid for all your hard work protecting the innocent/guiding the vulnerable into the hands of an abuser (delete as appropriate)?

    Like

  145. Here’s some Mary and Sakya Trizin for you (2000):

    “Dear Lu and Alex,
    Final words on this from me:
    I did make a contentious statement regarding the onus of proof — and I
    did not put this in adequate context. I was not being * legal*. What I
    was trying to say is that the issue of misconduct and abuse has plagued
    all religious movements and especially TB. So far the voices of the
    victims have been heard — and largely disregarded. People who have
    spoken out have been subjected to severe character assassination. So
    severe in fact that many who would otherwise have shared their
    experiences have backed off. The result has been a plethora of rumours
    and counter-rumours and much head-in-the-sand response from dharma folk
    in denial and clinging to this state because they have invested so much
    in their chosen path/teacher. When I said that the onus is on the
    accused rather than the accuser, what I meant is that some honesty, some
    straight talking and some humility from the many highly regarded (and
    some less illustrious) teachers who have been implicated in
    sexual/abusive scandals would go a long way towards relieving the
    distress of countless victims whose problems have never been adequately
    addressed and/or resolved. Yet what have we had so far? One — only one
    — public utterance at the First (or was it the second?) Conference of
    Western Buddhist Teachers by HHDL. And that was it. Not a squeak out of
    Sogyal, not a murmur from Catherine Burroughs, not a peep out of
    Namgyal, no word from Sakya Trizin — and Kalu R was dead so he could not answer back. That’s just the headliners. I cannot accept that ALL the rumours and allegations are untrue. Over the time I have been on the internet I have developed some sense of who is truthful and who is fibbing. It does require awareness and practice to be able to do this and I am sure I do not always get it right, but I trust the word of some people — especially ones I have known for a while. We continue to dodge this problem at our peril and to the detriment of TB.
    Mary”

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kagyu/message/6411

    Mary is doing more harm to Tibetans and Buddhism than she’s helping. I wonder where the envious, angry screaming for decades results from?

    Even if I see a monk flirting with me or another woman, I’m not enraged. There is a human being in all of us. Should some compassion be generated at some point instead of this intense hatred? It seems like it’s fueled by some disappointment toward a deeply imperfect parent who wasn’t what one expected. Now push all the hate toward Tibetan lamas? Grave waits all of us ahead, for some it’s sooner than for others…

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  146. It’s amazing how bad English comprehension many natives have here. Don’t they teach you at schools?

    SR critics seem only to understand texts written by Mary Finnigan – but they seem to have dropped out of the media criticism classes. Or maybe they are just too old and they didn’t yet have these classes available in the 50’s.

    Like

  147. Jampal Yang, on November 23, 2011 at 12:34 pm said:

    It is quite obvious that this thread should abandoned.

    Especially when you haven’t brought in ANYTHING at all yourself! Did you have some new information about the subject?

    Like

  148. Oh for Pete’s sake. I just found the newsgroup discussion with MF, removed, Sogyal Rinpoche, shugden, and Geir. Seriously, people. Best move it to alt.religion.bermuda.triangle.

    Like

  149. I did not say the newsgroup presented evidence of sexual wrongdoing. I said the ng presented evidence of Mary Finnigan accusing removed of sexual wrongdoing, which it does.

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  150. Well, she posted it under her own name. She makes it very clear she is the one writing.

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  151. So, everything that MF says is ‘gossip’ but now newsgroup content= evidence.Hmmmm? Do I smell the stench of double standards wafting across the web?

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  152. This is what I know: Mary Finnigan led a campaign against removed. She has said so herself. If she or others are trying to distance her from that campaign, I don’t know what to say, other than the pages and pages of newsgroup activity are available for all to see.

    My point is that she seems to make a career out of slandering Tibetan Buddhist teachers. Not all–just certain ones. I have no idea why.

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  153. Water, the Chinese say, always eventually flows to its lowest point. Similarly, the content of intelligent internet debates eventually deteriorates to become nonsensical as sensible folk who have made valid points, move on to new vistas. Finally, all that is left is those who have little to contribute other than opinion, opinion which is often wildly innaccurate due to the contributors themselves being of the sort who spend endless hours trawling the net in search of recognition for their distorted opinions

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  154. On November 23, 2011 at 12:27 am said:
    Oh, I DO believe the Sakya Trinzin story, ” says Giulia, who is fiercely against Tibetan lamas, has a clear history of ‘disturbance’ and claims the Tibetans tried to kill her. She believes the allegation because Sogyal said something about a Chinese girl (end of evidence)

    As an example of Giulias highbrow view of these issues

    read on:

    Anonymous, on November 23, 2011 at 12:44 am said:
    Let’s have a discussion: “Who was/were your best lover(s) and why?”
    Giulia
    Anonymous, on November 23, 2011 at 12:46 am said:
    and who was worst and why?

    Didnt someone say that people were guilty of posting irrelevancies here? So far, you have Sheila, who has an issue with seventh day adventists and NOTHING to say about Tibetan Buddhism but is posting here (?????) Giulia, who is clearly howling at the moon, and Bella, who simply denies everything because she knows ‘the truth’ Stunning defence.

    It is quite obvious that this thread should abandoned.

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  155. It’s Anon who always returns to the same boring subject, I suppose he wants to bubble in his own cauldron?
    Let’s have a more interesting conversation!

    Giulia

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  156. The Three Witches (bella, giulia and sheila) enter the scene, a witches’ haunt. They begin their ritual, adding many foul things to a bubbling cauldron (“scale of dragon, tooth of wolf/ witch’s mummy, maw and gulf/ of the ravined salt-sea shark, root of hemlock digged i’th’ dark/ liver of a blaspheming Jew”, etc.), chanting what are probably the most famous lines in Macbeth: “Double, double, toil and trouble; Fire burn and cauldron bubble.”
    — Act 4, Scene 1, Lines 22 – 26

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  157. The attempt to associate Sakya Trizin with Mary Finnigan is a very obvious, thinly veiled ploy, one designed to reduce her credibility via the sheer ridiculousness of the claim of Sakya Trizins misconduct. Sakya Trizin is one of the last bastions of pure Buddhist practice left alive and this is a well known fact throughout the Buddhist world.For any critic to suggest that he would engage in such misconduct would only cause the majority to heap scorn on such a critic. hence the attempt to associate Mary Finnigan with the allegation for, if she can be characterized as a critic of Sakya Trizin (a criticism which is patentkly untrue, as is clear to all) then this also brings into question the credibility of her claims against Sogyal Rinpoche. This is the intention of Sogyals supporters in this context. Its clever but not that clever.

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  158. In American Buddha that email had come from Mary Finnigan about Sakya Trizin and SR. Who ever wrote the article and sent it to MF doesn’t matter. Mary Finnigan forwarded it to Am. Buddha and that’s how it is there.

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  159. One last thing MF is a student of ST-she would not therefore post such nonsense. Moreover-Rigpa students argue that SR is not a monk and is therefore free to do as he wishes vis a vis women. ST is not a monk.
    This thread has clearly reached its end and is now a chatroom for irrelevancies Im bowing out because this is now a pit of deceitful distraction

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  160. and who was worst and why?

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  161. Let’s have a discussion: “Who was/were your best lover(s) and why?”

    Giulia

    Like

  162. I don’t mind too much whether Sakya Trinzin or a yogi or Sogyal fuck a lot of broads yes or no. What I DO mind: the ones that pretend to be monks do this as well and play too many games (some of the Orgyen Trinleys —- I am quite sure one is sent away with a present after a mini-fuck).

    Giulia

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  163. I would rather let them do a bit of cleaning and household work first and then see whether they are still interested.

    Giulia

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  164. If you can stand the idea, demand presents. I understood that is what temporary lovers (women) do. I could not do it: would make me feel like a whore.

    Giulia

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  165. All Tibetans have told me that the Tibetan women don’t sleep with men rightaway at all: far from that. Behave like a Tibetan and they will lose hope, I guess.

    Giulia

    Like

  166. Hmm, I guess “N P” has “Tenerife system”

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  167. I also rather like the “I am so detached” system: have scores of attendants and cooks and tutors and drivers andsoforth and a constant stream of everchanging lovers. Sounds swell to me. Would sign for it immediately.

    Giulia

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  168. I would like to challenge you all. If you had full power, what would be the way you would have your sexuality arranged?

    I visited the island of Tenerife when I was a teenager. We learnt that the original inhabitants of the island had 3 husbands each: 1 for the work in the house, 1 for in bed, 1 for travelling; the woman could change the tasks of the men according to her wishes.
    Has never stopped sounding like a desirable system to me.

    Giulia

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  169. Oh, I DO believe the Sakya Trinzin story, since his last visit to Lerab Ling beginning of September 2011. There were clear funny references to a Chinese girl (Sogyal made it understood where the interests of Sakya Trinzin lie) and the whole night long I felt bombarded by images and “videos” of the most horrible kind that maybe only Japanese people still find “erotic”, but for us rather “criminal” — I came to the conclusion he must have that type of fantasies —- well, not my problem.
    Oh, Yes, and I also got jumped upon — by an elder yogi that Sogyal had claimed “if one sleeps with him one becomes enlightened” — and who at the time was my neighbour. I used to admire him — UNtil thAt day.
    I simply fought hard to get rid of him on top of me and that was it — never looked at him again — a pity, I found it an interesting figure & handy man to walk along with in the middle of the night to pujas, etc.

    For me, all of this is not drama. It merely is: these two people apparently have different styles/tastes than the ones I am interested in. And that’s it.

    Piece of advice for anyone confronted with “erotic interest” of “a lama”: demand to be enthroned in full style before anything. Puts them off, usually.
    G

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  170. Anon. Nuance is actually important. Denying abuse took place when you have no knowledge that it took place is not a crime nor is it even morally objectionable. Not that I really expect that you will concede even this small point.

    And Anon even bella is not denying that there was a lawsuit and it was settled. And no newspapers do not have huge numbers of lawyers that vet everything that comes out. The only newspaper that printed there was money that changed hands seems to be the Mary Finnigan article. Not exactly an unbiased source.

    And as we have recently seen in this thread Mary is sometimes selective in revealing the truth, denies inconvenient truths for many years and sometimes is even perhaps mightily misleading.

    She didn’t leave the thread because it is a war. She left after she got caught with her hand in the cookie jar.

    Victoria Barlow has publicly stated that she is Nicky Skye. And Anon quite correctly points out the the allegations against HH the Sakya Trizin are untrue. And so why exactly are we to believe that she told a lie about HHST but spoke the truth about Sogyal Rinpoche?

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  171. “The difference between the removed thing and Sogyal is that anyone who has had anything to do with Tibetan buddhism knows it is untrue. The stuff about Sogyal on the other hand is well documented, thats why people agree with MF-becuase they know what she says is true”

    But MF was the one accusing removed.

    “I must also say that Nicky’s Skye’s allegations are not the first I have heard about ST’s sex life.” (Mary Finnigan, Oct 25 1999, 1:00 am., alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan)

    In fact it is Mary Finnigan who first publicized HH Sakya Trizin’s name in conjunction with these allegations.

    “I did not mention or publicize removed name, Nicky herself
    did so through Mary.” (Evelyn Ruut, Oct 24 1999, 1:00 am, alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan)

    Like

  172. The difference between the Sakya Trizin thing and Sogyal is that anyone who has had anything to do with Tibetan buddhism knows it is untrue. The stuff about Sogyal on the other hand is well documented, thats why people agree with MF-becuase they know what she says is true

    there is no ‘cacophony; above which meaningful debate cannot be heard. There is no campaign against Tibetan lamas-many of the posters here follow tibetan teachers.The only cacophony is the sound of bellas ranting denials-that what drwons out debate-just as she intends

    There is no info, only gossip, claims bella. Bella-LOOK FOR F555S SAKE its ALL OVER THE f%%%ING PAPERS ANd tv-who are you trying to convince (obviously yourself) The reason Sogyal doesnt sue is because the stories ARE TRUE—OBVIOUSLY!

    Your arguments are illogical bella and, on the whole, rely on nothing more than simple denial-just because you dont want to belIeve its true. Thats really sick All these women are liars and fantasists because bella doesnt want to believe them,because If she did then the great saviour guru who helped her see through her own abuse problems would turn out to be just the same as the ‘ordinary beings’ who abused her in the past.AND THERE WE HAVE THE REAL REASON FOR BELLAS INCESSANT DENIALS. READ IT AGAIN-SOGYAL IS THE SAME AS ANY OTHER ABUSER

    According to bella
    There was no lawsuit
    there was no settelement
    the Guardian printed lies
    the Telegraph printed lies
    the Times printed lies
    The documentary was lies
    All of the people who alleged abuse are liars and fantasists
    All of the people who claim their friends were abused are liars

    and the reason all these things are lies (despite the fact that all such reputable newspapers dont print without hard evidence for fear of litigation-they have huge teams of expensive lawyers run through the stories with a magnifying glass before they print them) is because bella says so. Face it bella, your in denial simply to preserve what remains of your sanity. period.YOU CANT FACE THE FACT THAT YOUR SAVIOUR IS THE SAME AS YOUR ABUSERS-AND SO TO PRESERVE YOUR SANITY YOU PUBLICLY PROCLAIM HIS INNOCENCE AND FACILITATE MORE ABUSE IN THE FUTURE-maybe now you can begin to work out why it hapened to you in the first place BECAUSE THOSE WHO CONCEAL AND CONDONE IT ARE AS GUILTY AS THOSE WHO PERPETRATE IT

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  173. And I ought to add that the Catholic Church should be absolutely ashamed of itself, given what is happening to Catholics in China. It is simply not worth turning your backs on millions of Christian believers in China in order to discredit Buddhism.

    Like

  174. I think sometimes people campaign against an idea. Then all anyone has to do is suggest, “So and so is part of this idea!”

    We take the rumor ball and run with it – because the idea itself is something everyone should fight (abuse).

    Therefore, anyone who says, “So and so is NOT part of this idea!” is labeled as being “pro-abuse.”

    One thing poking at my mind is how MF continues to look for an “exclusive.” I noticed in the removed/Nicky Skye thing, she kept mentioning how she’d advised Nicky Skye not to talk to anyone but her.

    This doesn’t seem like someone genuinely looking to get safety and justice for a victim, to my mind. On the contrary, one should advise Nicky Skye to go to anyone and everyone, especially the authorities – not hoard the information.

    Likewise with the Sogyal Rinpoche maelstrom, instead of hoarding the documents, they should be immediately released. Hoarding them only endangers more women, if in fact the documents contain information relevant to women’s safety (which, at this point, I no longer believe they do).

    But Mary says she believes they do – so she should release them, not hoard them as some kind of “exclusive” to be released in a book.

    At any rate, the more I read on the removed debacle, the more I am convinced there is simply a campaign to bring down as many Tibetan teachers as possible. And that puts me right back where I started – exposing the obvious genesis of that campaign.

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  175. Sometimes it is said that teachers teach if the students ask him/her – or if there are suitable students (whatever that means, karma?)

    Despite Mary Finnigan’s fierce campaign against him, Sogyal Rinpoche continues to teach and is dedicated to Dharma until he dies and beyond, I believe. I think it requires some dedication from his part.

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  176. What’s sort of horrifying is that MF et al’s campaign has probably made any real whistleblowing all but impossible to hear amidst the cacophony.

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  177. These are Mary’s agendas, her words:

    “I suspect the reason we appear so similar to you is because we share the same interest, namely the preservation of the Buddhas teaching by rooting out latter day charlatans who use that teaching for the sake of personal gain, be that financial or sexual.”

    You repeat what you have learned from her. Why not study the relevance of her words yourself? Most of Mary’s ideas are gossip without any truth behind them.

    Sogyal Rinpoche is not that naive or a beginner in Buddhism that he would work only for personal gain. These kinds of comments make me see that you don’t know one thing about him.

    He doesn’t need to work at all: he is in the age of retirement. YET, he works day and night, like he has done all his life, for the benefit of beings. It’s difficult to find any one person on this planet who is as hard working. There’s no basis for your views. It’s based on gossip, not INFO.

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  178. BellaB: “Why would a Tibetan lama take people’s phone numbers and bother calling them after 2 weeks? How would he even remember a girl in a crowd after 2 weeks and what was her name (and number) (…)?”

    Hmm, interesting. I guess this touches a point that bother us, women, particularly, especially when it involves men in positions of power and/or “famous men”? “He did/does not really care about me” is the bottom-line. Exactly, that’s why I never wanted to sleep with any of such persons.

    Sometimes, for the sake of “practice”, we are told to e.g. visualize our father (or mother) as a little boy (girl), because we Westerners all have or had our problems with our parents.
    From the same point of view, I would like you to read the following.

    Sogyal Rinpoche has visited my town (in the north of Holland) a couple of times in the past. Apparently, he was totally smitten with a certain woman, because he used to phone her from every corner in the whole wide world. She: “Who is this guy anyway and what does he want?” Me at hearing this story: “What a waste of money for all the dharma-centres (Australia, etc. etc.) involved”.
    Who knows, it is us, northern Dutch women who have disappointed SR and hurt him, who knows WE are to blame and not him?
    Who can tell? For further reference: “In Lucia’s eyes”: a novel by Arthur Japin about how Casanova turned out the way he got.

    Giulia

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  179. I don’t think BellaB said much about PRC employees.

    That’s my jag, because I spend most of my day with PRC employees and can smell that action a mile away.

    Like

  180. anon, on November 7, 2011 at 5:28 pm said:

    Yeah well ,while you worry about punctuation,sogyal is still packing the goonies in…..having just put on a show at the London centre this last weekend.Thats the point isnt it? Despite all the information out there,all the blogs ,the sex scandals documentry, he is still at large manipulating and decieving and abusing I left Rigpa after 10 years
    when i finally woke up to the sickening truth of it all

    —> left Rigpa after 10 years

    sankappa, on November 13, 2011 at 9:30 am said:

    “The retreat I refer to was largely Dzochen. There certainly was a lot of build-up to these teachings, but I have to say it was pretty much an anti-climax. In my opinion SR is no Dzochen master as you claim.”

    sankappa, on November 13, 2011 at 12:03 am said:

    “I’ve done this and moved on from Rigpa, and I came to my senses and got some perspective on Buddhist teaching and Buddhism in general.”

    —> left Rigpa

    So, it was sankappa on a dzogchen retreat. I should have checked it.

    Still Anon, you talk like Mary was your best friend. I don’t get it. People have pointed out her lies – and you are eagerly defending her. Why?

    What’s in it for you?

    Even if the accusations were true, I would NEVER defend a liar.

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  181. I see what you are doing-You are attempting to reduce all criticism to one person and then undermine that one persons credibility, I can assure you, I personally knew of Sogyals misdemeanors many years before I encountered MF and news of his sexual shenanirgans was already widespread in the Buddhist community even the (1985ish) I have never attended a rigpa retreat, nor have I ever claimed to have done so (another of your fantastic ideas-if so where?). I am happy to swear on the life of my children that I am not MF, and DI have also confirmed this,though you refuse to believe this. I am moreover, not one of her ‘disciples’, I suspect the reason we appear so similar to you is because we share the same interest, namely the preservation of the Buddhas teaching by rooting out latter day charlatans who use that teaching for the sake of personal gain, be that financial or sexual. I believe there are quite a few Buddhists in the different traditions who feel like this, many of whom have never heard of MF Still, if you say we are all the same person, I guess I must be deluded

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  182. And who is this person writing here?

    http://www.american-buddha.com/am.learn.1a.htm

    “I was the person who helped file the lawsuit against Sogyal in 1993/4. Mary Finnigan interviewed me for the BBC in which I spoke up about Sogyal’s sexual exploitation of me.

    I never really got to fully speak my mind about how rotten a person I thought Sogyal was at the time I got to know him, how grossly narcissistic, deceitful, slothful, sadistic, immoral and basically stupid I think he really was. I’d like to say that now. ”

    Is that Janice Doe? Or some helper in the process?

    I hope Mary didn’t listen too carefully this woman. Narcissistic, sadistic, stupid… Mary’s words exactly. How stupid one has to be to believe these stories?

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  183. After 2 weeks of teaching Dudjom Rinpoche and his translator SR were more likely already in another town – or most likely in another country…

    Like

  184. This story in Am Buddha about SR is incredible and I don’t believe a word of it. Why would a Tibetan lama take people’s phone numbers and bother calling them after 2 weeks? How would he even remember a girl in a crowd after 2 weeks and what was her name (and number) in order to plan an attack? These stories are so stupid. All made by MF.

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  185. American Buddha: Sakya Trizin
    http://www.american-buddha.com/finneg.1.htm

    In my conversation with MF almost 2 years ago in DI she corrected to me this article is not written by her, but by someone else.

    How could a Rigpa student of 10 years (usually they don’t spend time with Marys) know that article is not written by her? Anon you are the Mary or a faithful Mary fan and not a former Rigpa-student, like you claim. You protect Mary like she was you or a dear friend. You were not on a Dzogchen retreat to hear how SR teaches Dzogchen, but you make things up. You talk like a Mary and it would be goof for you to snap out of it. You know, lying doesn’t liberate you nor anybody else. I consider liars extremely stupid people: they think will not be caught, but they do get caught, always. Idiotas.

    We can end it here. I know who you are and you pretend to be someone else. You want to think I’m mad, well be my guest. I don’t mind being called a psychic, emotional vampire, nor a witch or a maddy. They have to have the position of the evil character in this circus. This circus is not funny, though.

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  186. Oh Bella; In your world all critics of Sogyal are PRC employees, everyone is divided intro Rigpa and MF followers (who are all in fact the same person) and you are under cyber attack from a vatican-backed rabbit? And you think its me? Once again I sincerely suggest you seek help-but not from anyone involved in sexual abuse, as it will only make things worse.
    Best of all would be to drop your keyboard adddiction and focus on the teachings of the Buddha you have received. This topic has run its course now and all that is left is all this nonsense! Back to the cushion, move away from the keyboard!!!Your faith will help you -endlessly ranting on about who is who and who is right or wrong will never end and will only make things worse

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  187. Anon, after I’ve revealed the circus characters of this blog, you have no other weapon than to try to make me look mad.

    Show goes on.

    Like

  188. hackers everywhere and reds under the bed-must be difficult to sleep. Didnt anyone tell you: Dont touch the brown acid!

    Like

  189. virus => IP address

    I didn’t download anything. I was on this page, Dialogue Ireland, I sent my revealing message (that I said could be removed) on the blog, went to shower for 10 minutes – and suddenly my computer was going down.

    I guess the crazy wig lost his nerve finally.

    How could you even think to be in any position to help anybody, if you do things like that?

    Did you adopt the methods of Chinese propaganda machine – or are THEY paying you?

    Who is funding your activities anyway? If it’s not the dodgy Chinese government, I think the cash people should seriously rethink about your position.

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  190. Mary Finnigan
    Mary Finnigan <maryXfinnigan@ I received this as her signature in an email where she said she had vacated this thread due to the stench of war.
    I think you can take this as the official spelling unless you believe there is some code being used to bring down Bellab's computer.
    virus= post on our blog!

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  191. “Lama sex abuse claims call Buddhist taboos into question by Mary Finnigan Just look at the Guardian article”

    Then Cogent/Berger, Down the Crooked Path and other places have spelled her name wrong (or visa versa?)

    Like

  192. sorry, you’re not making any sense.

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  193. Anon, on November 21, 2011 at 6:11 pm said:

    “The fairy tae piece on American Buddha concerning Sakya Trizin is not written by MF”

    Yo must be a great fan of MF if you are not MF! How would you know unless you read all her posts from 2 years ago by heart! That CANNOT be done, unless you are 120% devoted to MF like she herself is.

    Any more revelations?

    DI, are you happy now?!

    Like

  194. Lama sex abuse claims call Buddhist taboos into question by Mary Finnigan
    Just look at the Guardian article

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  195. The fairy tae piece on American Buddha concerning Sakya Trizin is not written by MF

    Like

  196. Btw can someone tell me the official spelling of Mary’s last name–I’ve seen it as both “Finnegan” and “Finnigan.”

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  197. What’s not fantasy is the blanket use of PRC-generated terminology.

    One can hide many things, but language is like a wild horse with a mind of its own. It’s one of the few things even the best disguise can’t cover well.

    As for Mary Finnegan, I spent a good deal of time a few nights ago reading her 1990s campaign against a bunch of Tibetan teachers (removed, etc.)

    When I first came to Dialogue Ireland I though Mary was someone who (maybe genuinely) had a deep-seated personal issue with one teacher, based on her own experience, or that of a friend. Backing up and looking at the whole picture, though, it just seems as if she lines Tibetan teachers up like bowling pins and goes after them.

    I heard worthy quote on NPR this morning: “Good journalism doesn’t inflame – it informs. It sheds light, not heat.”

    I think that’s a good mantra, and something I definitely need to apply to my own conversations.

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  198. That virus you sent me proves me that I’m right about Anon and the petty circus around this blog.

    You say you provide help for those in need!

    You are actually too dum to help anybody!

    Just to let you know, many IT people are into Buddhism…

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  199. Your paranoia and inability to recognise your own internet gullibility and naivety are rampant-You open a dodgy site and immediately claim you are obviously under attack by professional hackers,Have you had your fillings checked to ensure that the CIA arent using them as listening devices?Be careful, his bow tie is really a camera. Arkham here we come! (Its the madhouse in Batman comics=another fantasy realm)
    PS Your post is, once again, irrelevant to this debate

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  200. Can one send a virus to a specific ip address over internet?
    also, does one have to click on something or open something or execute something for the virus sent over the internet to infect the system? in other words, can the virus be sent and infect the computer without the user’s knowledge (and without the user clicking open anything)?

    Best Answer – Chosen by Voters
    I think, only professional hackers can do that. But most of the time, people only get infected by opening or downloading a file on the internet.
    So don’t just download anything on the internet unless you know it is safe. To be sure that you don’t get any virus, install an antivirus.

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081029212454AAgPqIh

    I think there’s at least one professional hacker in this blog, the crazy wig.

    Can I send you a bill for my brother’s wasted time?

    Like

  201. Stop wasting your energy then.

    Like

  202. PS Google ‘Psychic Vampire’-I got 6 million 900 thousand results. Mary sure gets around eh?

    According to the Wiki reference (written by MF of course)there are also ” ‘Emotional vampires’ people with various personality disorders who are often considered to drain emotional energy from others”. Ring any bells, bella?

    Like

  203. Just because you have paranoia it doesnt mean the whole world isnt out to get you

    Like

  204. If you are not the same person, you seem pretty similar to her. I also don’t believe anyone who has been in Rigpa for 10 years talks like you, which sounds more like being under the influence of MF.

    Like

  205. ‘NOT THE SAME PERSON’-GEDDIT?

    Like

  206. dialogueireland, on November 20, 2011 at 7:09 pm said:
    I know Anon is Mary.
    DI moderation
    As someone who is sitting in the control room watching Buddhist, Scientology, Catholic material coming in. I see the IP addresses and some who use proxies. Bellab we know where you live, the country etc. We also know that Mary is getting personally attacked. I can tell you that she is not Anon and Anon is not her. They are two separate people.

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  207. “ad hominem argument to see why such an approach is considered weak and naive-it is also probably one of the most famous cult responses to criticism known to man”

    Are you so unaware of your own responses here? Who attacked Anon-la? Have you forgotten? I suggest to look in the mirror and leave the constant rant.

    I haven’t changed my mind about your identity. Just move on.

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  208. All you do is rant on (incorrectly) about who is who and how, whoever who is, they are liars and fantasists-I suggest you look at the term ad hominem argument to see why such an approach is considered weak and naive-it is also probably one of the most famous cult responses to criticism known to man
    Your ‘logic’ (trusting in your intuition) leads you to make ridiculous statements which are invalid and an embarrassment to all who read them as well as all they support.
    Your intervention on the part of Sogyal is probably the most damaging tactic he or his followers could have employed. It makes it look as if he attracts the unhinged, people with long term mental health problems who cannot see reason. You are a Jonah for the Rigpa cause, the ideal supporter from the perspective of his enemies -“if these are the sort of people that support Sogyal, something is very clearly wrong. Indeed, he appears to be preying on the psychologically challenged”.

    Give it up bella-you are destroying the very thing you think you champion

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  209. Your wrong-no more time to waste communicating with an irrational being like yourself

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  210. One more thing, Anon-la: Mary Finnigan was writing here with her own name first, then started to use the name pema. Everybody knew it was her, but I also began calling her pema until she refused to discuss with me. Later on somebody just united Mary Finnigan to pema in their post, but no one cared or responded.

    I don’t know but since MF has talked in a really ugly way about SR, I thought one can use the same language of her. It’s not nice, of course.

    If you try to have a real discussion with DI people, attacks do not help of course. I wasn’t planning an attack: I just realized the connection between ‘2 people’ using the same sayings (psychic vampire, denying Namkhai Norbu’s friendship with SR in a very straight forward manner as if knowing, just like MF). Either they are the same person or they spend a lot of time together and adopt similar use of language.

    Mostly I think I do understand what people write (at times I don’t care, since I’m called names too). Anon-la you don’t write exactly what is on your mind. I don’t know if you assume I would read your mind or in between the lines. Please, write complete thoughts and don’t assume me to guess what point you meant.

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  211. Once I sent a not so nice post on forum of spree killers: I signed into their forum and told them that they were stupid after some mass murder event that they were celebrating. I was kicked out from the forum of course and my computer received a virus in a few minutes. I hope this blog is not using the same tactics or is it only a coincidence that my computer received a virus now?

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  212. Bella, I am not MF (I am a liar so that means I AM MF) OR………Bella, I am MF (but I am a liar so I am not MF) Im afraid I cant really answer your allegation truthfully because I am a liar (Or is that a lie? If it is, does that mean I CAN answer your question truthfully ?) I dont know.

    All I can say is that the last time I looked ‘down there’, the landscape did not in anyway resemble female genitalia. So, unless MF had a sex change recently (and she hasnt spoken of having one and, since she is a liar, she may well therefore have had one) I am not MF…or am I a liar? On and on and on and on and round and round in circles of meaningless nonsense. End of thread for me. Still got a long way to go baby

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  213. I posted my response before reading dialogue ireland’s post at 7:09.
    I know you DI know who I am. Since I have told personal stories and haven’t lied, so I’d like to keep my id to myself. MF can have many ip addresses to use, work place and so on. I just know her language and even if Anon claims to be a different person, I can’t believe he/she would be able to adopt MF’s style so completely. It’s enough for me that MF knows I know – and the rat race is over for now.

    Anon-la, just move on with your article. Send it! I’m also a bit fed up you whining about ‘your case’ as if you were a leader of some campaign that we others should follow. I don’t know what is the truth behind the accusations, but I know MF is a liar – and today I see it happening again.

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  214. DI, even though my computer collapsed (my brother will fix it) you can remove my post about the id of Anon, since it is unethical.

    I’m tired of this rat race. At least I know the name of the game. It’s a small circle. Pointless discussion.

    I hope Anon-la and reason will bring in the truth.

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  215. I know Anon is Mary.
    DI moderation
    As someone who is sitting in the control room watching Buddhist, Scientology, Catholic material coming in. I see the IP addresses and some who use proxies. Bellab we know where you live, the country etc. We also know that Mary is getting personally attacked. I can tell you that she is not Anon and Anon is not her. They are two separate people.
    Please do not go there unless you want us to reveal you identity and start some censorship!
    We have no idea of doing that, but I would love to use the delete button on you, but we are for open views even when they drive us mad.
    They reveal the cultist mindset. When someone says a you reply z. There is not logical connection.
    You admitted you got it wrong about Anon, and then immediately went onto start making more false claims. Have you got a keyboard addiction?!

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  216. Could be that I did a wrong thing. Mary Finnigan is here with her own name.

    So, Anon-la, you try to reason with these people? I allow you.

    For some reason my computer collapsed 15 minutes after my ‘revelation’ of Anon. Co-incidence, karma or a virus? Luckily I have many computers.

    Just send your article, Anon-la, it should appear at the top of a different page and I leave you to defend it alone, I promise.

    I hope reason will shine some light on this issue. So far it’s been a circus.

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  217. Bella,
    Your response is exactly what I am talking about. Even people who think Sogyal Rinpoche did something innaprpriate, spoke out against Jim Anon Crow trying to out me by accusing me being someone I am not, It is not ethical. Now you are doing the same thing., Even if you are right, you are wrong.

    In anycase, you often times don’t seem to be able to to understand what people are saying to you, perhaps it is your english comprehension. And your last response to me is a prime example of this point. And once again you buried my post raising ethical concerns about DI and ANON with a silly post of yours.

    Like

  218. No document from you no post

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  219. Anon-la,

    I’m sorry you feel that way. I’ve followed this story for about 2 years now. I’ve had direct arguements with MF/pema before. You just didn’t read all the posts.

    I know Anon is Mary.

    You can read the thousands ramblings here and see for yourself. I don’t mind if you don’t bother.

    Just write your article to DI and see if they post it.

    You know, Anon-la, I’m not here to be your ‘spare-part’, even though I mostly value your effort. I’ve been here for 2 years and I think I know a Mary, when I see one. You don’t need to like me. I’m pain in the ***. I know it. Just read Anon’s post with the lenses I gave you, and decide for yourself.

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  220. Anon, other than Mary’s article, and the DI briefing document I don’t see where anyone is caiming that Sogyal RInpoche paid anything. In fact, even Mary’s article only says paid, rather than paid millions. And we have seen in this thread that Mary isn’t completely forthright and honest. DI can only counter my argument with “not convinced” without explanation. I think the most compelling evidence to support what I have said is that no major US newspaper ever dared print the rumor.

    I really don’t get why DI and ANON have to hang on to this point since whether or not he paid millions does not mean nothing bad happened,

    Unless, of course, ethical behavior is not actually required when right is on your side, And if you can’t behave ethically why should I believe you?

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  221. Hi Bella,
    Your behavior is nearly indistinguishable from Jim ANON crow. Now you are trying to out ANON by making baseless claims about his or her real identity. I don’t see you revealing your true name. And even if you do how do I know it in fact is your real name? All you have done in the last twelve hours is bury my post which raised serious and reasonable concerns about what is going on here. I am beginning to think that you are part of the anti Sogyal Rinpoceh cabal. You posts mostly make no sense. Nearly everytime I read one I feel sympathy of DI. You don’t seem to answer the points that DI raises any better than Anon or DI respond to mine. Anyway, your response to my post will most assuredly to fill this thread with more and more and even more of your posts. You should just trust me when I say that you aren’t helping the cause you claim to support through your actions. Further rambling on your part will only turn people like me who still have an open mind further and further away,

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  222. There’s no-one left to defend the case. MF = Pema = Anon protecting her own story.

    This is one circus, I must say.

    And I must be a psychic vampire, bellaB. I told earlier on that when I was young, blue eyed, I could be lied to – but that is no more the case. At some point I see through lies, deception – that has happened with men, so why not here? I just know something isn’t right – and I know later the truth. It has happened to me many times.

    I also told earlier on that I can’t stand liars. I’m going to get to the bottom of this thing, one day, for sure.

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  223. Yes: my mistake it was Sankappa, who was talking about his/her retreat experience in relation to the Marianne article. (sankappa, on November 12, 2011 at 3:50 am)

    You may think I need psychiatric help, but that was just another comment from you, Anon, that made me think another thing. After I looked for those comments, reread your comments on this thread, I came to the conclusion that you don’t in fact belong to Mary Finnigan -cult, but you are – in fact – Mary Finnigan! I know your language by now – and I thought ANON was quite aggressive all along (just like Mary), but ANON was well chosen ‘name’ since it can easily be mixed up with Anonymous – and therefor one doesn’t necessarily pay attention to you.

    Language samples:

    “wow-so much trolling and madness here, psychic vampires blood fest or what???
    ‘Recently, I had some news in a dream’ No alarm bells ringing anyone?
    Maybe, unless youre actually EVER going to do anything about it, it would be better to stop talking barrel loads of nonsense and get your funky ass on the cushion people?

    Or did you transcend all that? Already enlightened?

    Sheer madness running riot here, Follow the Japanese advice-PAY NO ATTENTION”

    Psychic vampires?!! I heard THAT one a long ago! bella = vampire

    and here:

    “What is that issue? The issue appears to be that a growing number of Sogyal’s former devotees claim he has used his position to coerce them into engaging in the sexual act. Such claims are manifold and long standing and are supported by documentary evidence in various media manifestations and across the web.

    It is up to the individual to decide whether these allegations are true or not.In my own case,such abuse has occured in relation to individuals I have introduced to Rigpa (much to my regret) and I have encountered others who have experienced the same.” (ANON, on November 12, 2011 at 10:43)

    I introduced to Rigpa… like you introduced Dominique Side, a longterm steady student of Sogyal Rinpoche, whom I’ve seen tears in her eyes when we discuss the experience of nature of mind. I’m sure she has got it all, hence the devotion.

    AND: “Wake up, there is no friendship between NN and SR, only a fairly convincing display of the charming public face of Buddhism-its the same face on the body that privately carries a knife. Do Lamas have ‘friends’ ? Of course not, friends ,enemies strangers-these mean nothing to those with any understanding of the path, even beginners.”

    Er. MF is a student of NN, as well as other teachers. As already stated, visiting Rigpa doesnt make one a follower or supporter of Sogyal, any more than visiting a zoo makes one a monkey.”

    How would a so called Rigpa student who have recently left Rigpa (and “been there for 10 years” know about YOUR teacher relationships? You didn’t mention them here before (except Namkhai Norbu).

    Since you are Mary, Dialogue Ireland protected you, defended you… nice that you have some friends.

    I don’t know if I should laugh or cry.

    Any more lies?

    Like

  224. NO, you were right the 1st time; you dreamt up. Again, I have nowhere stated I have been abused (if so, where?) I did not state ‘I was there’ (wherever there is) after the Marianne article-If I did, where?
    Perhaos you will claim that the comments have been removed (again)
    You stated
    “Just answer how you were in Rigpa retreat (which is a closed retreat for public) and then you will clear your own name as a liar.”
    You now admit you dreamt it up. You called me a liar.
    I will now stop answering your posts as your questions and assertions are now ALL born of fantasy. Once again, I strongly advise you seek psychiatric help. Your fantasising is bordering on delusional behaviour

    Like

  225. Anon, how were you abused? You paid fees but didn’t realize the nature of mind?

    After the Marianne article you said you were there too and things happened exactly as was described in the article. I can’t find the comment, so I must have dreamt it – or it’s removed.

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  226. “Just answer how you were in Rigpa retreat (which is a closed retreat for public) and then you will clear your own name as a liar.”

    First invent the lie (where did anon say he/she had been in retreat at Rigpa??Exact ref please) Then make an ad hominem attack on the basis of the falsity you dreamed up

    “Why did you stay for 10 years,”

    have you never heard of divorces happening after years of abuse?

    You end on another ad hominem attack on MF —Again!

    Like

  227. anon, on November 7, 2011 at 5:28 pm said:

    “Yeah well ,while you worry about punctuation,sogyal is still packing the goonies in…..having just put on a show at the London centre this last weekend.Thats the point isnt it? Despite all the information out there,all the blogs ,the sex scandals documentry, he is still at large manipulating and decieving and abusing I left Rigpa after 10 years
    when i finally woke up to the sickening truth of it all”

    Why did you stay for 10 years, ANON? How did you find out the truth? From Mary?

    Like

  228. “No valid arguments; just denials ad ad hominem attacks. there is no point to posting here any more.”

    Ad Hominem attacks?

    Just answer how you were in Rigpa retreat (which is a closed retreat for public) and then you will clear your own name as a liar.

    Like

  229. More denials, more asking questions that have already been answered a thousand times. Im sure you would deny that you are in denial. Why ask questions when you have already decided on what you will and will not accept as an answer?
    This place is now haunted by damaged goods from the Sogyal shop; die hard supporters who, in some cases with a self professed history of abuse, have bought into the Sogyal scene in the hope that they have finally found a saviour, only to find that their new God is the the same as the old one.
    No valid arguments; just denials ad ad hominem attacks. there is no point to posting here any more.
    Just keep repeateing the mantra
    There was no lawsuit
    there was no settelement
    the Guardian printed lies
    the Telegraph printed lies
    the Times printed lies
    The documentary was lies
    All of the people who alleged abuse are liars and fantasists
    All of the people who claim their friends were abused are liars
    All Sogyals critics are employees of the PRC
    All Sogyals critics are Xinhua journalists
    All Sogyals critics are anti Dalai Lama
    Only you know the truth
    Sogyal is a God who can do no wrong and is perfect in every way (see how his hair remains jet black despite his old age-ah yes, the timeless wisdom of the Grecian 2000)

    Like

  230. DI,

    “1. We have the witness of a personal assistant to SR given at the Inform Seminar in 1997 which corroborates the claims made earlier by Janice Doe.”

    I read that she/he claimed to have been MENTALLY abused. Excuse me, but I would like to know HOW she/he was mentally abused? Did the person felt she/he was overrun by Sogyal Rinpoche? Did SR ask the person to go against their will, gut feeling? Sometimes he might be strict but he USUALLY takes good care of his close students and listens to them (or anybody who confronts him from the audience). He has conversations with them (at times even in public), if they have a problem. Students at times openly criticize him or shows that they don’t agree on something. Then SR and the student conversate about it, deal with the issue. I guess that personal assistant didn’t open her/his mouth? Could you tell the story? What was the mental abuse about?

    “3. The fact that Bellab continues to make insinuations about our identity, when we have answered why I as Director do not answer your questions is simple. That is not my expertise. That is why we have a DI Buddhist consultant to do it. But I will not be entering this arena and baiting will not get me back.”

    …about our identity… very revealing point. Anon is part of YOU, Dialogue Ireland. Good it’s clear now.

    I don’t believe Anon was on any Rigpa retreat as he claimed. It would be good for your page that you only use people as assistants who are completely honest.

    ——–

    Anon-la’s request about how you’ll present his document are valid. I also began to think if the article will be in this format:

    – Your presentation about the article: A cult devotee’s / anonymous Rigpa worker’s conserns about the legal case

    – Anon-la’s article

    – Anon’s (or who ever your Buddhist friend/’expert’ is) commentary about how cult works and how Anon-la’s story makes no sense. How the Guardian is a reliable source as well Mary Finnigan’s dedicated life work on “criticism toward Buddhism” (even though “she is a good Buddhist”, telling people & Tibetan lamas how to run their organizations, with her “deepest respect” toward HHDL, who is in the end a “feudal lord”, it seems).

    (I wonder if the Guardian is run by hardcore Christians worried about losing our western capitalist-Christian way of life? Often newspapers and magazines have a political agenda. I’m not their reader so I wouldn’t know what’s their agenda.)

    Like

  231. I have started the composition of a document. However, from your response to my point about millions paid I can’t see the point. You don’t respond with an informed legal opinion. You simply say that you do not buy my arguments, I have now run my understanding of US jurisprudence to a third lawyer. And again confirmation that my analysis is in fact the most likely case. They added that a major newspaper like the NY times would never report millions paid for the exact reason I stated precisely because no matter how many sources say otherwise, they either made it up or the are in material breech of a legal agreement and cannot be trusted. None of the lawyers are buddhist.,,

    So if this is how we are to proceed, denying your mistakes, what is the point?

    So let me respond to your point about the inform document.

    I don’t know why someone said that. But if it was that strong you wouldn’t need to resort to making up stories about millions paid, distorting the dharma in the briefing document and presenting rumor as fact.

    Lastly there is a conspiracy. In the Dan Brown article on your site two prominent scholars said as much. In fact, that is one of the reasons that most vipassana teachers in the US went from being cautious about Soyal RInpoche to supportive. Now the PRC are involved. You have no idea how much this situation is different from anything you have ever dealt with.

    I also concede that in theory there could be a conspiracy and Sogyal Rinpoche did something wrong. But it is so hard to tell because of the dubious nature of so many claims on your site, the briefing doc, and the way Mary, the poster child for the anti-Sogyal RInpoche movement, is fast and loose with the truth.

    I think if you stop vilifying me in your mind, conceded the places you obviously got it wrong, there would be a possibility for real dialogue. I guess the ball is in your court.

    Like

  232. They do:
    1. We have the witness of a personal assistant to SR given at the Inform Seminar in 1997 which corroborates the claims made earlier by Janice Doe.
    2. We suggest you ask the LSE for that information.
    3. The fact that Bellab continues to make insinuations about our identity, when we have answered why I as Director do not answer your questions is simple. That is not my expertise. That is why we have a DI Buddhist consultant to do it. But I will not be entering this arena and baiting will not get me back.
    No document from you no post. No bible no breakfast!

    Like

  233. DI- Thanks for the prompt reply to my request, But either yiu think I am stupid or you are resorting to subterfuge in order to weasel out of answering my point.
    Question for DI: If that email arrives where will you post it?
    Did you or did you not write this? If so what is your problem? No weasel just you want me to do your work for you. We do not buy your arguments, but are willing to give you what you called airtime. Now you claim I am not answering your requests! Give us a break.
    I suggest you take the posts I have written about your claim that Sogyal RInpoche paid millions to an American legal expert. I am confident that they will support what I have been saying a plausibly and possibly likely the truth.
    No you did not think we would give you the space, so now you are not up to the job!
    Ootherwise I can only conclude that you just don’t care what kind of crap you put in the briefing document.
    If someone disagrees with you they are speaking crap. Get it into your head, we stand over the document. You write a reply or we can consider the conversation over. This is my last word. Over and out!
    You can call me name, you can make fun of me, but you can’t wriggle out of the fact that thus far you have not shown any responsible behavior on this issue. I do not buy into your violin sonata. I have not called you any names, just when you realise you have to produce you are running scared. Granting you a right of reply and a full post is totally responsible. When offered this you have rejected it Good bye!

    Like

  234. p.s. none of those links respond to any of of the points I raised about the millions paid. Just in case you thought I didn’t read them.,

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  235. DI- Thanks for the prompt reply to my request, But either yiu think I am stupid or you are resorting to subterfuge in order to weasel out of answering my point. I suggest you take the posts I have written about your claim that Sogyal RInpoche paid millions to an american legal expert. I am confident that they will support what I have been saying a plausibly and possibly likely the truth. Otherwise I can only conclude that you just don’t care what kind of crap you put in the briefing document.

    You can call me name, you can make fun of me, but you can’t wriggle out of the fact that thus far you have not shown any responsible behavior on this issue.

    Like

  236. Question for DI: If that email arrives where will you post it?
    On our blog where else?
    I suggest you produce a word document, and give your article whatever title you wish.

    and where will you post the reply from the buddhism/legal “expert”?
    With yours and hopefully with a new thread so we can get out of this one!
    You will also note that they are not a legal expert, but a Buddhist expert.
    Also you will note not one of you have answered the point I made about a former assistant to SR who told of her abuse at the LSE in 1997 at an Inform Seminar. Why do you not ask them for their briefing document on this issue?

    DI Newsletter 1998

    Has the time come to tell your story.. If so?

    Archive material from ’95 and ’97 on Sogyal Rinpoche

    Bella has forgotten how we answered her questions about DI in 2010. some of you have not read that and are coming up with all kinds of conspiracy theories.

    Director of Dialogue Ireland replies and explains our mission to Bellab

    As an observation, there is a lot of funny stuff going on from a group of people trying to claim the moral high ground.
    I am not sure what peak you are on yourself. Please wait till the Sherpa gets to you.

    What we wrote a few days ago:
    p.s. Another day goes by, and DI refuses to remove the unverifiable claim of millions paid…
    Stop bleating on, unless you write a document which outlines your opinion this will be the last time we will
    respond on this thread. In fact you have been answered, but you have failed to find it as you have a presuppositional
    predisposition to avoid the answer.
    Write your response to the document, and we will submit it to our expert. We will publish it with his/her refutation.

    Send it to info@dialogueireland.org mailto:info@dialogueireland.org
    And DI refuses my request for “airtime”, because they are worried that their Buddhism expert (and legal scholar) is wrong.
    We are not on the radio, but send your article and we will publish it with our expert’s opinion. It will not be censored!
    Please stop acting like a spoilt child. Produce or get off the stage.

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  237. Weekend Recap:
    It turns out that Madhair’s claim that LBF and the person making changes to the Sogyal RInpoche wikipedia page were not definitively one and the same.

    Jim Anon Crow made a case that situational ethics are somehow ok as long as you are in the right.

    Mary Finnigan denied that she knew about her posts being used by the PRC, except that she did. She forgot to disclose the connection the author of the marianne article was the friend of the woman in the documentary and therefore was not the innocent reportage that it seemed. This disclosure caused Jim Anon Crow to go on an insane rampage of ethics violations in the name of justice.

    And DI is still clinging to the belief that despite the case being made in 2009 that they are incapable of explaining or refuting the legal theory that says that it is unreliable to state that Sogyal Rinpoche paid millions, They claim they are unable too refute it until a certain email comes to their box.

    Question for DI: If that email arrives where will you post it and where will you post the reply from the buddhism/legal “expert”?

    As an observation, there is a lot of funny stuff going on from a group of people trying to claim the moral high ground.

    Like

  238. Anon is not going to answer my questions.

    I will draw conclusions:
    – he was really angry if Anon-la was actually working in Rigpa or not
    – blaming Anon-la for lying her/his identity

    Now he himself doesn’t want to tell how he is involved in Rigpa.

    I consider you too Anon dishonest.

    Are there ANY honest people left here?

    Sheila seems genuine in her concerns.

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  239. Hey, there’s nothing like good ol’ fashioned trolling to pump up awareness.

    Be sure to tune in to this week’s Simply Troll–er, Simply Folk–on Wisconsin Public Radio, 5pm central. You can hear my actual voice and decide for yourself if someone who lives in Madison, Wisconsin nowhere near any Rigpa structure that I’m aware of is nonetheless, a Rigpa “troll.”

    Who we are, and who we are not, is pretty important to this discussion. If Mary said, “I didn’t realize the terms ‘fuedal’ and ‘Shangri-La’ practically contain Hu Jintao’s DNA; I got them from an online Goldstein article,” or something, I’d say, well, I could understand how that could happen. Unfortunately, you have to understand where Goldstein got them.

    Having lived in China, I hope you’ll understand my commitment to not seeing 10 Downing St and 1600 Pennsylvania Ave become CCP outlet malls.

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  240. dnftt

    Like

  241. After today’s Guardian bit, I can no longer take Mary Finnegan’s “anti-abuse” campaign seriously.

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  242. Anon, I maintain that giving thumbs-up to Adventism and thumbs-down to Vajrayana is relevant.

    You seem concerned when adults take Sogyal Rinpoche’s classes, and concerned they may be duped into a relationship; but not concerned when a newly-Adventist dad comes home and tells the kids, “You and mum are not going to heaven.”

    I don’t expect everyone to devote themselves to decrying Adventism; what I do expect is something other than a blanket approval of something I know to be dangerous, combined with a blanket disapproval of something which in my experience is far less cult-like than Adventism.

    The discrepancy colors my views on the integrity of these discussion forums. And yes, RR’s behavior doesn’t help. I realize DI is not RR.

    Other than the PRC catch-phrases used in Mary’s article, there is no single factor that in my mind casts more questions on the forum’s attitude toward Sogyal Rinpoche, than its blanket approval of Adventism. I think you can understand why.

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  243. What we wrote a few days ago:
    p.s. Another day goes by, and DI refuses to remove the unverifiable claim of millions paid…
    Stop bleating on, unless you write a document which outlines your opinion this will be the last time we will
    respond on this thread. In fact you have been answered, but you have failed to find it as you have a presuppositional
    predisposition to avoid the answer.
    Write your response to the document, and we will submit it to our expert. We will publish it with his/her refutation.

    Send it to info@dialogueireland.org
    And DI refuses my request for “airtime”, because they are worried that their Buddhism expert (and legal scholar) is wrong.
    We are not on the radio, but send your article and we will publish it with our expert’s opinion. It will not be censored!
    Please stop acting like a spoilt child. Produce or get off the stage.

    Like

  244. While the leader of the DI chapter of the KKK Jim Anon Crow and others have been going on and on accusing each other of trolling, I couldn’t help but notice that no one dared to offer a counter legal theory. So i guess it is settled and DI will remove the unverifiable claim of millions paid. MadHair now concedes that LBF was probably being truthful.

    And DI refuses my request for “airtime”, because they are worried that their Buddhism expert (and legal scholar) is wrong.

    Have all you great yogis spotted the obvious false claims about Buddhism and (here’s a clue) tantric commitments yet?

    Or does distorting the dharma also become a morally acceptable act when it is for the right cause? Welcome to Jim Crow’s situational ethics forum.

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  245. Anon, how can YOU be so certain Mary Finnigan’s word can be trusted? I think you are MF-cult devotee.

    “Meanwhile, you have shown us how blind faith can be and how inapproriate devotion is as much a cause of cultism as are cult leaders.”

    Who is blind here? I said I want to know the truth. The background group of this page and it’s motivation is as relevant as Mary Finnigan as the writer of both Guardian articles that others refer to. Everybody else but you, DI and the editor of the Guardian newspaper considers her a liar. Once a liar, always… She can be pointed out about her lies, but you still believe in her dossier?

    You don’t want to tell me how you have been on a Dzogchen retreat which is a closed retreat from public? Evasiveness is a tactic too. I tend to answer the questions I’ve been asked.

    I don’t need to know your name, your place of residence or anything else. Tell me this simple thing: if you are not part of Rigpa, but you go to a restricted retreat, how did you manage it and what was the reason to go there? Did you lie about being there present?

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  246. Dear bella.
    The reason I appear to be on the same side as DI is because both of us are opposed to cult abuse (or what you might see as ‘guru devotion’).

    Your attempts to pigeonhole me/identify me are so far from who I am that they are not even worthy of consideration.

    Once again you are ranting about irrelevancies and are not furthering the discussion. If there is solace in having driven all others away from this forum with your madness, then take it.
    Meanwhile, you have shown us how blind faith can be and how inappropriate devotion is as much a cause of cultism as are cult leaders.

    Erric has left-can’t think why. Sheila realises she is posting irrelevancies I suspect and you are posting smokescreens denials and irrelevant rants. I think therefore this thread has reached its natural conclusion

    The conclusion?
    There are numerous allegations concerning sexual abuse on the part of Sogyal Lakar
    A small but dedicated team of his followers have chosen to post denials of this, no matter what critics say and deny the validity of any evidence they produce despite it being widespread and repeated.
    That will always be the conclusion here.

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  247. Dialogueireland, why are YOU getting so heated? I was asking those questions from ANON.

    “However, it is helpful to show the cultist tendencies and attitudes
    which the discussion brings out.”

    Cultist tendencies? It’s easy to hit with that word? Why do you protect Anon? He has been attacking far worse toward Anon-la. It’s because I’m more on the other side than this page and Anon is on your chosen side.

    I’m sorry I figured out something, which wasn’t supposed to be revealed.

    Anon has been in Rigpa, in a retreat that is not open to public.In another occasion he has received as he calls REAL Dzogchen teachings from his own master after 20 years. He must be Buddhist. I really wonder what he is doing in Rigpa retreat? DI has a Buddhist consultant, which I mistakenly called informer. I start to believe they are the same person. If it is so, pick another, genuine Buddhist for a consultant. Anon has been directing since 2009 the conversation from free ramblings toward his goal.

    I’m sorry I am a real person with real experiences, I’m not a plant, that can be diverted toward Anon’s or DI’s goals. Why would you even want to do that? I thought you were free from cultist tendencies of manipulations and telling people how things really are (and they should abandon their own understanding, experience, instict, thoughts, free speech).

    Conversation is a lively form of expressing, creating thoughts and understanding. Truth should not be a threat. I’m looking for it.

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  248. Divert from the thread?

    I am making a specific correlation between this thread and dubious sources, and I am asking why those sources were invoked.

    I am furthering the exploration of this topic, as opposed to letting it lie dead in the water as the author has.

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  249. Are you the Buddhist DI refers to as their informer?
    Where have we referred to us having a Buddhist informer?
    I am going to let you and Sheila ramble on.
    We find that the form of diversionary tactics employed
    tries to divert from the thread.
    However, it is helpful to show the cultist tendencies and attitudes
    which the discussion brings out.
    You are free to express any point of view you wish here,
    but I for one will not reply to you or intervene again
    unless it involves sock puppetry.

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  250. “if smoke is present, we can usually infer that fire is the cause”

    Not if the one screaming “fire” is holding a smoke machine.

    I simply cannot discount, in addition to all the problems I’ve already listed, the inclusion in Mary Finnegan’s Guardian article of all the usual CCP-Goldstein cabal terminology.

    If this was accidental, it is extremely unfortunate for Mary. It could be, I suppose, that she picked up some Melvyn’s ramblings, rather than something as direct as downloading a Xinhua article (or worse). Again, bad luck. I’m being very generous here, by the way, given the very specific terminology used.

    These words (feudal, medieval, lamaist, Shangri-La) hits me on a visceral level–it’s like your eyes starting to burn, instead of merely seeing smoke, since we’re using that metaphor. If the use of this terminology is a coincidence, it will be the first I have encountered in nearly four years.

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  251. ANON, the content of the teachings also depend upon the students present. Next time pick a beginner’s class, so you don’t prevent other genuine students from accessing Rinpoche’s teachings. He knows his audience…

    I’m happy if DI people go to meet him, just pick another level.

    Like

  252. Anon, on July 8, 2009 at 9:38 am said:

    “I suggest you focus on the issue-Is it right for a Buddhist master to use his position for sex? If you deny he has done this, are you suggesting that all the accusers are liars?
    Remember, we may be wrong to assume that there is no smoke without fire, but even Buddhist inferential reasoning uses the example of this to show that, if smoke is present, we can usually infer that fire is the cause.”

    Is this you? What were you doing in Dzogchen retreat?

    I thought Dzogchen retreat was on invitation only. Pretty expensive to be a DI-cult member. Are you the Buddhist DI refers to as their informer?

    What is your personal story here? No smoke without fire?

    I don’t want to be extremely nasty, but I just find your role bizarre.

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  253. ANON: “Again, smokescreens. If you have something to say about the Sogyal issue, say it, If your comments are concerning other issues, post elsewhere, in a relevant forum and stop trying to bury bad news”

    It’s in the headline. How can you bury bad news? There isn’t any bad news – nor has been for a while.

    If you miss them, invent them like Mary. It’s easy. I noticed you have been on this page for a while now. Are you a dharma-police? :)

    What were you doing in the Dzogchen retreat? Are you a Rigpa-“student” or Mary’s spy? If you are a spy, doesn’t it cost quite a deal to go to retreat which you don’t even enjoy? Summer vacations and all that? Is Mary paying you?

    — just crossed my mind — Have a nice day! :)

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  254. “Historical study is corrosive. Once you start asking questions about why someone you’re studying believes something — whether it’s true, where it came from —if you’re honest, you end up asking the same questions of yourself.”

    David Lindberg, Hilldale Professor Emeritus of History of Science, University of Wisconsin-Madison

    I have certainly found that to be true. I hope those who think I’m here to attack their work will take me at my word when I say I am looking into the issues you raise with an open heart and mind. If my opinions run counter to yours, it’s not because that’s my goal.

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  255. The integrity of anti-cult forums is paramount in our understanding of how they work (or don’t work) to warn people about “bad news.”

    The obvious question is: if the forums are ingenuine in their handling of a subject I know well (Adventism), how can I and others be certain they are genuine in their handling of the topic at hand (Sogyal Rinpoche)?

    There were enough questions in my mind already, after examining how these discussions treated the Sogyal issue. To add to those doubts the startling response to the Adventist issue, really leaves me feeling this whole thing is a sham.

    You’re convinced I’m a Rigpa person (I’m not), so undoubtedly you don’t care about my opinion. But you should at least care for the sake of whomever it is you’re ministering to.

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  256. Again, smokescreens. If you have something to say about the Sogyal issue, say it, If your comments are concerning other issues, post elsewhere, in a relevant forum and stop trying to bury bad news

    Like

  257. The “Is/Was Adventism a Cult?” thread has been closed by the RR moderator. The thread was polite, productive, and 6 days old.

    Real dialogue and exchange of information was taking place. Real humans could come to the forum and get answers about a very widespread organization.

    Not any more. Isn’t that interesting? Perhaps RR was too embarrassed that people should find out Adventists’ uncomfortable position on the origins of the African race.

    I give DI credit for letting the dialogue continue. I also find it sad that, in our respective democracies, I have to feel grateful when conversation is allowed.

    Slippery slope…until we’re standing with a lighter in Tian An Men square.

    So, with all its warts, the “Lama Sex Abuse” thread remains at the least an example of democracy in action.

    Off to fire my governor. Be well.

    Like

  258. “Issues to do with this thread:
    Lama sex abuse claims call Buddhist taboos into question by Mary Finnigan”

    So we are allowed to talk about

    – LAMA (and his/her power over us?)
    – sex abuse (in general or just Buddhist?)
    – claims: are they true or not?
    – Buddhist taboos: what are they?
    – by Mary Finnigan: if anything MF writes makes sense or not?

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  259. If sexual abuse can happen ANYWHERE, isn’t it best to educate women (and little boys) how to avoid it and what to demand for themselves?

    Self-respect is a start.

    I think this ‘education’ should be one main focus.

    What does it help to go back and forth in conversation: did something happen, did it not happen, how could we know? We cannot know. Did someone pay something? How much? It’s a sensationalistic approach.

    If some woman is abused,

    1. she should go to police station.
    2. make sure it never happens to her again by growing self-awareness
    3. inform of possible danger to others

    Point 3. has been fulfilled here already. If there is or is not a danger, people have been warned in any case.

    Weather I or Sheila or Giulia or Anon or Anon-la believes there is a real danger doesn’t really matter. We are not involved. We can speculate from our own experience. I even think we have all met SR at least once. Then we form our opinion about him, without really knowing anything about the related issue. Only Anon-la might have a new angle, so why DI doesn’t give her/him a chance? (-la at the end of the word in Tibetan refers to a female)

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  260. So here is my question: it seems to me that if someone reports a positive experience with Rigpa or Sogyal Rinpoche or both, they are accused of either lying, or being deluded, dimwitted robots.

    If someone reports a bad experience, their word is immediately embraced.

    I totally get that Sogyal Rinpoche has been tried and convicted here. What I don’t get, is how the people most determined to prevent him from having contact with women really believe they are effectively accomplishing that.

    If the bias is so immediately obvious, anyone coming here will write this forum off as “Side A’s spin” instead of considering people’s statements more carefully.

    It seems to me this would run counter to the goal.

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  261. Issues to do with this thread:
    Lama sex abuse claims call Buddhist taboos into question by Mary Finnigan
    We have tried to make this clear for 2 years!

    Like

  262. If you read our mission statement you will see we are not a Christian site, but a cultism site.
    To show we are dealing with groups of Christian origin see further:
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/category/legionaries-of-christ/
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/category/faith-movement-abundant-life/
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/category/house-of-prayer/
    We have one Adventist Church in Dublin. We do not regard them as cultist, but as we believe this can happen in any group why not them.
    http://dialogueireland.org/dicontent/resources/video/waco.html
    http://dialogueireland.org/dicontent/resources/video/rulesofengagement.html
    http://dialogueireland.org/dicontent/resources/video/wacobroadcasts.html

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  263. Can you tell me dialogueireland, what do you want to see posted here?

    Exactly.

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  264. What has this to do with this thread?
    Nothing-divert……………………………………………………………………………………………………………!!!!!

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  265. It takes me a long time to compose my thoughts – other posts slip in, often, and I’m sorry I missed the above which included the links. I will move the “cultism” thoughts over there, and welcome the discussion.

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  266. One of my not-so-hidden agendas here is to educate men about porn and abusive feeling sex. I might feel abused just in ordinary sex, if the man is selfserving w**ker.

    “bella, your views on men are highly sexist generalisations and are being aired in the wrong forum”

    Really? I’m not alone with my experience and view.

    The Vagina Monologues: theatre play for acquiring the vagina back to women themselves from porn and men. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vagina_Monologues

    If women in general follow this page, I think many would agree with me. Too bad it makes men suffer from collective guilt. There are good men there: how else could I compare not-so-good-ones to them? How a muslim woman can tell which man is good, what sex is good, if her only experience is with the one who married and ‘raped’ her when she was 14?

    Giulia said very well too: “I guess many problems related to sex could be avoided if the people involved would be able to know their own intentions and/or “agenda” and if they would be willing to make these clear.”

    This is good advice especially for young women, wherever they are.

    And if Anon tells me to shut up, go ahead. A male telling a woman what to do, is it again?

    If these pages are not created only to rant on and on about a bad evil person, but also about how to avoid abusive situations or cult scenes in general, then I think we women can emphasize and talk about our own experiences too. If we have our own experiences that we own and views of our own, how could you call us brainwashed by a cult?

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  267. I posted my discovery of SR’s case having been dismissed.

    Would welcome continued discussion on that.

    What troubles me is that discussion of Buddhist problems seems clearly encouraged; discussion of Christian problems seems clearly not. This is my current feeling; I would welcome evidence to the contrary.

    There are people on RR cutting and pasting from dawn ’til dusk everything they can find against Tibetan Buddhism. I started a very polite thread on Adventism, and have been asked to move on. It’s clear no one there has dealt with Adventism; anyone coming to that forum for guidance will find none. They will perhaps blunder into Adventism with no information–no one will tell them, for example, that Adventists teach that black people come from amalgamation of man and beast, or that once they’re settled, they will be made to give 10% of their paycheck to the church.

    This is extremely relevant to our Sogyal Rinpoche discussion. I believed at first that the mission of these forums was truly to alert people to dangers–even if I didn’t agree with all the dangers listed. I appreciated very much the extensive list of problem organizations, and felt it all looked extremely thorough. The Adventist reaction tells me there is something else entirely at work (either that, or people truly are blindsided by what goes on in Adventism, and simply don’t believe me).

    If you have a pro-Christian agenda, however slight, that should be made clear. I would very much understand you choosing to have that focus, but it needs to be a stated focus. You can’t simply allow some “good Buddhists” to post, and then say that that means you have no pro-Christian bias.

    People who are not Buddhists can rant against it without experience; yet someone with actual experience inside an organization with deep problems is told to “move on.”

    How can you possibly expect people to believe the mission of these forums is genuine? There are real dangers in Buddhism, and real dangers in Christianity.

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  268. 6 mins before replying. did you read the links before firing off.

    I guess that makes me the Devil of DI ;)
    No we don’t demonise people we assist them. But we are only finite.
    Looking after people who have real abusive situations and trying to do other things.

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  269. Sheila
    “We all have agendas” How true

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  270. Once again we stray off topic, back to Sheilas (interesting ) views on cultism (so post them there!) and now a brief resume of bella b’s dissatisfactory sex life. And all this has precisely nothing to do with Sogyal and sexual abuse-the more this slokescreening happens, the more deliberate it looks
    PS bella, your views on men are highly sexist generalisations and are being aired in the wrong forum

    Like

  271. (and sometimes my focus is nonexistent: narrow.)

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  272. My Adventist stuff was a genuine reaction to the odd response I got here, which led me to wonder about the aims of the forum (both as regards Adventism, and Rigpa). I think it would be interesting to have the “what is cultism?” discussion, because some of the questions answered in it would apply to Tibetan Buddhism and other spiritualities.

    I don’t think the cat thing got out of hand, and it was refreshing to have a few words without being screamed at by someone for being both a “woman who’s faking a cult experience” and a “woman who’s accusing others of faking cult experiences.”

    I guess that makes me the Devil of DI ;)

    I do appreciate DI’s approach of calling it “cultism” rather than labeling something a cult; that way one can point out cultish behaviors without getting screamed at for disobeying the unspoken rule that one mustn’t label certain things cults without permission.

    Unfortunately, it seems many are here to direct dialogue, not foster it.

    I first posted here having spotted the same old Chinese terms being used to discuss Tibetan Buddhism; I then looked into the SR case and started to feel something might actually be up. Now I’m back to thinking this is all a campaign, perhaps in advance of a manuscript.

    Agendas exist whether we like it or not. We all have agendas…I think it’s better to call it focus. Sometimes our focus is too narro.

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  273. Thank you Anon for summing up DI’s position. As you can imagine we have to take a cat nap during this type of diversion from the topic.
    Yes we will always consider the discussion of topics, but Sheila has already answered her own question that the appropriate place to deal with this is under the category of cultism. https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/category/cultism/

    Mission Statement


    Also I would suggest she asks Rick Ross about the SDA. No point asking us. We call no group a cult, but address the issue of cultism. People leave comments on our blog calling groups cults, but that is not our view. As far as deprogramming is concerned we clearly state our view on this as follows.

    Services We Offer

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  274. Once a British older man told me he loves me. Seriously. He is a Christian. He hardly ever finds women who appeal to his spiritual and sexual side. We seemed to be a match… until we had finally sex. He told me that I probably like to be chained…. There collapsed my romantic fantasy about us.

    SR once told a joke about British people and their S/M sex. Is it so? British are ‘cold’ and ‘stiff’ – that is the old joke. My experience confirmed that. But it’s only one person.

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  275. “abusive: too straight-forward, aggressive and not considering emotions” For a moment I thought you were going of topic. But then I realised this was all about Sogyal!Congrats for staying on-topic!”

    Could be related to the topic, since SR is male and his partners are female. I have no idea how SR is as a lover. I hope he is better than most of my male friends from the past.

    With this in mind, women’s sexuality could be different from men – but then again I have had different male lovers. The best ones are the ones who have a lot of femininity or sensitivity in them. With many (young) men ordinary sex might feel abusive. No wonder why the old joke of a married couple is that the wife doesn’t want to have sex anymore. Why? There’s always a reason.

    In early Tantric teachings women were the teachers. I hope men would keep that in mind. Porn is not the best teacher, but often the worst. Too bad it has so much power in our culture.

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  276. Who said I was a male? And anyway, Buddha was male-‘no emotion, no life’??
    Who said anon-la was a ‘she’???
    So what are we discussing here bella? The faults of being “.abusive: too straight-forward, aggressive and not considering emotions” For a moment I thought you were going of topic. But then I realised this was all about Sogyal!Congrats for staying on-topic!.

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  277. Cats are a side topic. If you can’t stand human things, but only hard core criticism, then it’s up to you. My cat problem was one sentence.

    It may be a male thing: just facts, no emotion, no life.

    I guess that explains also why some women consider male sexuality all together as abusive: too straight-forward, aggressive and not considering emotions.

    I always read the first comments, skip the middle repetition and go to the end. If there’s nothing to talk about at the end I just add my own opinion.

    You can also start a new discussion after the Marianne article. It’s the latest. Let’s see if Anon-la will be allowed to put up her own statement.

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  278. I note that several of the most recent posts have little or nothing to do with the Sogyal sex allegations. At best, this is because people are able to happily converse in a friendly manner. Cynics however, might consider this an attempt to bury the sordid allegations in a quagmire of cult speak. Even if this is not these posters intentions, the end result is the same off-topic statements concerning 7th day adventists and cult deprogramming for example, which hide away the previous comments from public view ( Generally, people always read the last posts first and sometimes only the last posts) Therefore and with all due respect, if you wish to discuss issues that do not relate to this issue directly and since you are clearly friends, could you please communicate elsewhere
    If you wish to discuss the issues to which you refer, I am sure you could write something and submit it to DI for approval. If it is considered appropriate, I am certain they would post it and then you can cover these issues in a proper context. I dont think discussions of cats health problems will ever merit a new topic however. (though, my own cats health is always a worry, I certainly dont think this is the place-in fact, it looks very much like another attempt to bury the important questions surrounding Sogyal Lakar and sex abuse in amist of irrelevancies

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  279. BellaB – I’m just about to head to bed, but I hope your kitty is doing better.

    Maybe one person’s deprogramming is another’s programming :)

    I remember a move from the 1980s where Kristy McNichol infiltrated a cult to help drag a girl out for deprogramming…

    But aren’t all retreats deprogramming, as you say, lol?

    I’d said up above that I credited the Lutheran church for my deprogramming – actually I have to credit my Dad for shifting us over in the first place. I think what actually deprogrammed me, though, was simply time away from the SDA church…realizing the world wouldn’t end…and gradually accepting the new belief that one could go to heaven (and keep breathing) without being an SDA.

    When I’m dividing religions into “cult-like” and “non-cult-like,” an easy first filter is:

    Column A: religions that call or send people to knock on your door if you miss a service, and

    Column B: religions that don’t.

    That’s the first thing I noticed about Buddhism :)

    Goodnight, and continued prayers for kitty,

    Sheila

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  280. “The actual deprogramming takes place when it is deemed possible to “pick up” the cult member, and when it is convenient for the deprogrammer. Typically, the cult member is driven to a secret location and guarded 24 hours a day, often with no privacy, even in the bathroom. Windows are sometimes nailed shut to prevent escape. The deprogramming continues for days, and sometimes weeks, until the cult member snaps out of the cult’s mind control (or successfully pretends to do so).”

    I think this almost applys to longer retreats, except that there is solidarity. I wonder if the enlightened beings are considered cult-members by DI? I think it would make a great film: deprogramming retreats for Buddhists.

    Like

  281. Sorry – in rereading DI’s mission statements, perhaps “What is Cultism?” might be a better way of putting it?

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  282. I’m sorry to hear about your kitty :/ I hope he/she will get better quickly, and I’ll keep him/her in my prayers. I know how terribly hard it is.

    That’s sad but hilarious about the deprogramming. And yet, I can so imagine being tempted to do it for (to?) someone – for example if I had a child in the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints – ugh. Doesn’t help that my mom’s reading “Escape” right now.

    That is simply one of, if not the most, painful aspects to cults, in my mind – the way they can destroy families. I was very, very resistant to my father pulling us out of Adventism; I felt terrible, like we were becoming “dirty.” Fortunately over time, I saw the light, thanks to a wonderful Lutheran church which demonstrated to me that it’s perfectly possible to practice spirituality without all the heavy-duty judgments and fears.

    I haven’t asked DI to open an Adventism thread (is this something that can be done?) but would welcome it. Or perhaps a thread on “What is a Cult?”

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  283. Sorry, I couldn’t sleep. I worry about a sick cat. This made me laugh though:

    “Deprogramming is essentially a content-oriented persuasion approach that sometimes involves abduction and typically involves forced detention. The actual deprogramming takes place when it is deemed possible to “pick up” the cult member, and when it is convenient for the deprogrammer. Typically, the cult member is driven to a secret location and guarded 24 hours a day, often with no privacy, even in the bathroom. Windows are sometimes nailed shut to prevent escape. The deprogramming continues for days, and sometimes weeks, until the cult member snaps out of the cult’s mind control (or successfully pretends to do so).”

    Maybe people should be guarded against entering Dialogue Ireland?

    Sheila, I never knew about the Adventists. Doesn’t DI want to open a thread? Are there any Christian cult threads here? I must check.

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  284. Could those who’ve been here longer than I comment on whether there is a Christian bias to the anti-cult forums? Or at least a slight one–maybe even unintentional?

    I am very much in favor of dialogue on cults and problem organizations. Not for the purposes of “shutting down” anyone’s religion, but to talk openly about what goes on in each sect so that people can be better informed (and perhaps even contribute to positive change). I fully realize one man’s religion is another man’s cult, and accept that there will always be disagreement.

    However, I have been taken aback by the resistance when I bring up Adventism. Is there by any chance an agreement with certain Christian denominations, to avoid including them in the list of problem organizations?

    SDAs teach that only SDAs will go to heaven, all members must give 10% of their family’s income to the church, and black people come from the “amalgamation of man and beast.” Surely this alone is enough to warrant an asterisk, or at the very least, to not vigorously defend this sect out of hand.

    I wouldn’t object to a Christian bias if it were clearly stated. People have the right to choose a focus. I also realize people may simply not realize what goes on in Adventism; but all the more reason to encourage dialogue, not shut it down, I would think.

    While I clearly have an interest in Adventist issues, I am also concerned with the question of bias as it applies to the discussions of Tibetan Buddhism on these cult information sites/threads. Thank you for any thoughts!

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  285. I think people following this page are more like DI- or ScandalNews-cult persons than part of any other real world cult.

    bellaB, anonymous DI-cultist, soon former, I hope

    — joyful sleep to all!

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  286. Anon-la, please don’t be so brief, I really have no idea what you are talking about now: “… to translate (and possibly explain the logic of what I said) into your language and then point out to you why what you responded with doesn’t show least bit of understanding of what I said.”

    About what subject? Other spiritual traditions?

    “Or go to a cult deprogramming seminar. Or whatever. ”

    Thank you for this advice. I’m pretty far from any cult, so don’t worry. Only two of my closest friends are from Rigpa. The rest of my life is ‘elsewhere’. Please don’t assume too much. You don’t know my life. My daily life is usually, except this week in the evenings, so busy with work, study, that I don’t have time for cults, nor spiritual practice, which is a shame.

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  287. Dear MadHair,
    I read that thread before I started posting. As you probably guessed, I found some of the arguments persuasive.

    I don’t mean to start the whole thing up again but what LBF suggested is at least plausible LBF claimed that he was sharing a net connection with several hundred people. I used to work at a company, and all of us had the same IP. Not only that, but our surfing habits would have all been remarkably similar because of the type of research we used to do. I think you know this. But maybe it did not occur to you at the time because LBF was calling you provocative and annoying names. But in any case LBF’s story is plausible, to say otherwise is would lead people like me to think that you are either disingenuous or not as amazingly intelligent as you appear in other threads on this site.

    El Eio, we agree on several points. The case was settled and all that you can find in the public record (as a result of the settlement) that it was dismissed. That is precisely because both parties agreed not to disclose the terms of the settlement as is common in cases especially concerning a public figure. After reading Ler’s Be Fair’s posts in the thread MadHair refers to I decided to run it by a lawyer. Actually two. One thing about the US is that it is teeming with lawayers. One is a litigator for an extremely prestigious Palo Alto law firm, the other practices personal injury law. Both said that LBF’s logic was actually settlement extremely likely the exact situation, and that sources claiming to know the sum and who paid whom were therefore unreliable (for the reasons stated above). Please feel free to contact a US lawyer if you want independent verification. Second is why Rigpa hasn’t sued for defamation is exactly what I said before, if they deny the story they are in material breach of the agreement. The people spreading the story likely understand this fact and are doing their best to exploit the situation.
    Bella, I really don’t know what to do. On the off chance that your problem is English language comprehension, get someone who speaks English really,really fluently to translate (and possibly explain the logic of what I said) into your language and then point out to you why what you responded with doesn’t show least bit of understanding of what I said. Or go to a cult deprogramming seminar. Or whatever.
    ANON, I know who I am and therefore I am positive you have no idea who I am. So either you really believe what you said about my ID and then you are doing the digital equivalent of trying to intimidate me by “we know where you live”. That is so much the Klu Klux Clan approach. Else, and this is what I think is actually the case, you are trying to get me to reveal who I am because it really bothers you I caught you with your hand in the jar and you understandably want to know who did it to you. So call me whatever you like but I won’t take the bait.

    In either case you are using the classic cult like, lynch-mob bullying approach of trying to demonize someone who presents facts to deflect the moral deficiencies of your own actions.

    DI- How about that proposal?

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  288. “the only people who can see IP addresses in this context would be DIs webmaster”

    Sorry, Anon – I thought you were with DI. My apologies.

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  289. Not if you consider that one is an allegation of wrongdoing, whereas the other as actual (imho) wrongdoing.

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  290. “interesting thing about the accusations is that those who are accusing SR of bad behavior – either sexual or just daily treatment of students – are not behaving themselves very well”

    Er equating allegations of repeated sexual abuse with internet outing is like suggesting that a fart and the Hiroshima bomb had the same effect on mankind.

    Oh bella-again!

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  291. “Ironically, you’re doing the same thing you accuse others of; giving people an expectation of “safe haven,” but then using your position and power (ability to see our IP addresses) as a method of control or threat.”

    The interesting thing about the accusations is that those who are accusing SR of bad behavior – either sexual or just daily treatment of students – are not behaving themselves very well.

    I understand well, when people don’t want their id’s known. We have lives outside this page too.

    On the other hand I wonder how The Guardian wants to pay MF. Don’t they follow her ‘agenda’? She is not anonymous, so she should especially keep her tongue tight. “Sleazeballs, philanderers…!” I guess sexuality, spirituality and morals just makes us “burn”? For decades..?! :)

    I guess I have reached the joyfull side of the river, since this doesn’t cause me too much pain. (Sorry for the personal – emotional – testimony again!)

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  292. Excuse me Sheila, but the only people who can see IP addresses in this context would be DIs webmaster, so,since I dont work for DI, the last sentence does not apply.

    Thanks for the advice though. My own opinion is that if someone pretends to be something that they are not, by making statements like

    “At least you confirmed that fact that I have accurate inside information.It is true that my french friends, while not Rigpa students likely know some”

    then they deserve to be challenged, I mean, you know, ‘Im not an insider nor are my friends but they have friends who are’ Is a bit rich dont you think? Sheer deviousness. I would prefer it if people would just admit to their position rather than trying to appear neutral and then making extremely biased statements. If people want to play such games with the truth, I believe they should be confronted. Thats my opinion and Im sure you will disagree, but I think you can see the logic behind my thinking.

    Best wishes

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  293. To say that writing “Erric the well known Rigpa insider” is not outing someone is utterly ingenuine. I was able to find him instantly using the information you posted.

    I don’t mind my own info being known, because I purposely choose to “out” myself on most discussion forums. But as BellaB mentioned, I would definitely not feel comfortable telling someone to expect Dialogue Ireland would be a safe place to converse, if privacy were an issue.

    There are a lot of ways to lash out without jeopardizing someone’s privacy and safety. You could say, “You know we know who you are” or something to that effect; but publishing the person’s very-searchable name is unconscionable.

    Ironically, you’re doing the same thing you accuse others of; giving people an expectation of “safe haven,” but then using your position and power (ability to see our IP addresses) as a method of control or threat.

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  294. “When cases are settled out of court, the details of such cases are struck from the record and they are treated as having been dismissed”

    Thank you. My English is so poor. Also in my language “complaints” are done after the whole trial/case is over when the plaintiff or the defendant is not happy about the court’s decision.

    1st round: charge

    2nd round: complaint

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  295. I have tried to delete parts of the Wikipedia criticism section just to notice it came back in less than 24 hours and I was told to stop trying it again.

    Is themadhair controlling Wikipedia too? ;)

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  296. For f**s sake bella!

    “When cases are settled out of court, the details of such cases are struck from the record and they are treated as having been dismissed)”

    its above your post. Once again, your questions get answered so you ask them again

    As for

    “About Wikipedia: one cannot delete anything from there just like that. The changes have to be approved and verified”

    thats utter bulls**t and anyone that has ever edited wiki will tell you so-anyone can delete or insert anything-thats why there is an absence of a significant amount of critical information on the Sogyal page, for example: followers of Sogyal,like the NKT’s, repeatedly delete critical info. Generally, Wikipedia is well known as the best place for cults to promote themselves because they can edit out any critical information immediately and insert whatever propaganda they wish.

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  297. I don’t know anything about the legal system in US, nor in any other country, since I never was a criminal, nor accused…

    Anyway, I’m wondering what this means:
    —————————————————
    Complaint Number: 0001 — COM COMPLAINT of DOE JANICE
    Original Filing Date: 11/02/1994
    Complaint Status: Entry of Ct. Ordered Dismissal 02/22/1996

    The case was ordered dismissed.

    —————————————————

    Original Filing Date: 1994

    —> Settled ?

    Complaint: 1996

    —> was there a separate complaint about the settlement?

    Or is Complaint => Dismissed = Settled.

    —————————————————-
    Anybody understand?

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  298. If you have ever been in Lerab Ling you would know who Erric is. There’s no reason to look for a compass.

    All the Rigpa-people here are called plants, cult members an so forth.

    Very intelligent, indeed.

    I have called a liar just one single person: Mary Finnigan. Too bad she is the author of both the Guardian articles that everybody refers to. The other articles are not independently formed but are ‘copied’ or have reference to Finnigan’s articles.

    About Wikipedia: one cannot delete anything from there just like that. The changes have to be approved and verified.

    I was not the person in question (in DI message), but I have already admitted that I did delete one paragraph that was making a connection between SR and Guru Rinpoche (the main enlightened master in Tib. Buddhism) which was there trying to make all of Tib. Buddhism look like evil and filled with sex scandals from the beginning. I succeed because I linked the consort of Guru Rinpoche, Yeshe Tsogyal to her own page (Wikipedia: Yeshe Tsogyal). They accepted the change, because one can read that Yeshe Tsogyal was the principal student of Guru Rinpoche and the holder of his teachings and the whole lineage. She was not a poor victim. Neither was another of his consorts (from earlier period) Princess Madarava. Both of them have iconic status in Tib. Buddhism and are highly respected characters. Both had their background as princesses, so their status in the society was high – and they were not some poor women exploited without their own will. They were neither children like Muhammed’s consort, Aisha.

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  299. So far we have heard that Sogyals critics are deluded and xenophobic, lynch mob members who have been duped by lies told by others, all of whom are deluded fantasists and liars, and that these critics are anti Dalai Lama, PRC employees or sympathisers: some have even gone so far as to accuse DI of utilising the infamous Thomas Canada, the well known Shugden devotee who posts anti Tibetan vilification across the web, as their Buddhist advisor.

    All wrongdoing has been completely denied and we’re now even hearing that the multi million $ case brought against Sogyal was ‘dismissed’ (NB When cases are settled out of court, the details of such cases are struck from the record and they are treated as having been dismissed)-And anyway, according to anon-la and his flawless logic, because no one can produce written, documentary evidence of what the exact amount of the payment was (as is always the case in such settlements) then the settlement never took place.(Thus rendering at least three of the worlds most reputable broadsheet newspapers liars as well-yet no one has sued????)

    Now ‘Susan’, who is clearly, like anon-la, absolutely nothing to do with Rigpa (Ed Was that sarcasm?) is launching an attack against ANON for ‘outing’ her colleague, even though such outing takes the form of nothing more than forename usage: no address, no surname, no pictures, nothing; just a forename, ( a forename which BTW has 311,000 associated references on Google)

    Would somebody send these people a compass and a map. It seems that, collectively, they have failed to work out where the moral high ground lies. From my perspective this looks very much like a desperate attempt to undermine ones opponents through practices very often associated with cults

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  300. At some point DI threatened to reveal id’s

    A Rigpa supporter, with a traceable history of trolling on this subject (eg: deleting the criticism section from the Rigpa Wikipedia article), was called out for being such. They denied this and I asked them would they allow me to post the evidence proving such. The full discussion on this is here:

    Sogyal = “The Precious One” + Rigpa = “Innermost nature of the mind.”

    But you already knew that. Same old same old eh?

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  301. … but when a commentator pretends to be the voice of reason and claims not to have a personal interest in the situation, while in fact they are employed by the abuser, those morals dont apply, …

    Really? What difference does it make if she tries to make a reasonable conversation? Makes a point that you try to invalidate.

    If you can’t argue anymore from your point of view I think it’s better to be quiet.

    At some point DI threatened to reveal id’s – and I told them that if that is the case, no woman with any problems of what so ever should write here, if their identities are in risk of being revealed. The threats of revealing id’s ended there – and I hope you are intelligent enough not to continue the threatening path.

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  302. I see, so what you are saying is that immorality is ok when you are right and the ends justify the means… Is not that what anon-la was saying about your behavior being similiar to lynch-mob justice?

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  303. The case was dismissed.

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  304. Hey :’Susan’ 2 things-the whole world isnt watching and I dont care what you think
    Erric and I know who anon-la is and thats enough for me. ‘outing’; is normally unacceptable but when a commentator pretends to be the voice of reason and claims not to have a personal interest in the situation, while in fact they are employed by the abuser, those morals dont apply, That someone who works for the abuser should post here denying that any abuse took place is sinister and unacceptable, Fight fire with fire, Who do you work for? Who is your saviour?

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  305. Well ANON, the way you are going on and on you are only making anon-la’s point for him or her. You petty attacks are exactly what he is trying to demonstrate, and frankly it makes you and what you are trying to do look really bad. Just because there is someone on facebook that works for rigpa doesnt mean anything. All you are doing is making anon-la look good and you look worse and worse.

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  306. Oh look-Errics playing the race card now.You dont look that black on your facebook page which, BTW and purely coincidentally lists your employer as………..RIGPA!!! Surprise! Nice smokescreen, you who claim not to be involved with Rigpa insiders-so who did you speak to while you spent 3 years at Lerab Ling: the milkman?

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  307. “Anyway, I am considering your offer, but you need to agree that my letter will posted in its entirety along with the “expert” response in a new thread.”

    I think it’s good if DI can start a thread – for once – from another point of view.

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  308. DI- There is a long sordid history of white people stringing people of color up when ever the get out of line.One of the classics is to get a white woman to scream rape. The blood lust is typically unstoppable at that point. In this case you have in one post made threats designed to intimidate me from speaking out. Your last one tries to employ insults and big words as if my poor colored head is incapable of comprehending the fact that though you still haven’t refuted my logic, You are following the tradition to a T. Who is the one with prejudice here?

    The fact that you need a buddhism expert to explain US law to you is bizarre logic indeed.

    Anyway, I am considering your offer, but you need to agree that my letter will posted in its entirety along with the “expert” response in a new thread.

    Or does the white man’s inexorable right to the upper hand deny me even this?

    Like

  309. “I found the case. It was not against Sogyal Rinpoche, but “Sogyal Rinpoche et al” and included Rigpa Fellowship and the Spiritual Care for Living & Dying Network as co-defendants.

    Complaint Number: 0001 — COM COMPLAINT of DOE JANICE
    Original Filing Date: 11/02/1994
    Complaint Status: Entry of Ct. Ordered Dismissal 02/22/1996

    The case was ordered dismissed.”

    —> All this hassle for nothing!? Thank you for this.

    Like

  310. I found the case. It was not against Sogyal Rinpoche, but “Sogyal Rinpoche et al” and included Rigpa Fellowship and the Spiritual Care for Living & Dying Network as co-defendants.

    Complaint Number: 0001 — COM COMPLAINT of DOE JANICE
    Original Filing Date: 11/02/1994
    Complaint Status: Entry of Ct. Ordered Dismissal 02/22/1996

    The case was ordered dismissed.

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  311. Anon-la, I have studied other religions too. I’m interest in religions and have been since I was quite young. If you think all realigions are equal in philosphy, then I think you lack knowledge. Of course one can find similarities in the interests of different religions from man’s point of view, but methods and morals have great differences. I have to admit that I never bothered to study Hindu religions (because the books are just too many and I think I needed a scholar’s help to see the main points), but I believe a Tibetan monk, who is highly educated, and who said that there are many similarities between deepest Hindu philosophy and highest Tibetan Buddhist teachings. I don’t like animal sacrifice though (as I don’t like it in Hellenic religions either). Shintoism and Taoism don’t have a vast philosphy, but I do understand them to some extent and have a bit more respect to them than toward the Middle Eastern religions. Australian Aborigines have interesting ideas about Dreamtime, but I find it difficult to understand it since I don’t know anybody who practices the faith.

    I don’t think one can even begin to compare present day Middle Eastern religions with Eastern philosophy. Middle Eastern religions lack in wisdom (other than love) and basic points can easily be explained away or even ridiculed. I refrain from discussions about religions while I spend time with my Christian friends. Or once I did discuss them and I noticed the person beginning to feel quite bad even about the basic concept of guilt or black and white world view (heaven/hell: one life time chance to enter either, explanations of Jesus’ sacrifice: who was he sacrificed to?). There are other points too. I could continue, but this page is not about these things. Islam and Koran… just read it and you see the lack of depth.

    I think religions can be compared and one of course seems to consider the one one chose as the superior without questioning. But I have been open for many religions when I was young and studied them and continue to study them. I don’t agree with cultural relativists who seem very naive about religions. I was like that when I didn’t know anything about them.

    “What we can do is examine the stuff that any of us can figure out and see if it stands up.”

    That is why I asked to be sent the Irish woman’s report. Then I and everybody can see what it stands for. If not, I can imagine it to be far worse or too small issue or anything else. If one knows the detailed description one can (like the police) see, if there’s any validity in the story (or is it too simplistic to be true). Of course at the end it’s still hard to judge, since you hear the story from just one perspective. But if DI have formed their whole opinion based on that email, I think it sounds important. If we could read the message too, we could see, what DI considers important and was it so.

    I think best was for any woman who felt they were abused to go to police and make a case. It’s like Anon-la has written quite pointless to discuss this issue here at the end, if there is no evidence of crime. If there is, like Mary suggests, a full dossier of evidence, it would be easy to create a case. Since it’s not happening I tend to think there hasn’t really happened anything very serious. Not all the women can be scared about facing up their experience and not taking a legal stand.

    I remember very well Sogyal Rinpoche telling to the audience in past years: “I’m not harming anybody”. I’d like to believe it to be true and I’d like to believe he has good motivation in all his actions simply because I’ve never experienced him in any other way than as a strong compassioned protector. This is very difficult issue.

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  312. “I guess many problems related to sex could be avoided if the people involved would be able to know their own intentions and/or “agenda” and if they would be willing to make these clear.”

    Very strongly agree.

    Like

  313. PS Such a baby most probably would have been extorted away from me and put in “a monastery” — proclaimed a ‘tulku’ and whatnot, receive the best teachers, etc. And in the meantime I am here, clever lady, highly motivated, wisdom & insight, and apparently few think about bringing those teachers to ME, but to an ignorant little toddler, yes! Because it would have (the most probably inferior) DNA of a “high lama”!!
    Hello!! Your student is HERE! It’s ME!!

    Giulia

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  314. And then the constant whining about babies, oh, sheer horror! Even after (-apparently-) I had slept with “a high lama” and a few years later again with somebody who pretends to be that same “high lama”, all people seemed to be interested in: Am I pregnant or not? Horror!
    Instead of hooking up a juicy conversation with me about Madhyamika or a few new details about such or so yogic practice… all they seemed to be interested in was that…. (was not even possible biologically: “sleeping is same bed” is not same as “having sex”!).

    Giulia

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  315. I guess many problems related to sex could be avoided if the people involved would be able to know their own intentions and/or “agenda” and if they would be willing to make these clear.
    If all one is interested in is a one-night stand or a 3-month relation, one should make it clear.
    For example, there is all types of tasty guys out there that I would be interested to sleep with; in general, I could say these are African men. But, ho, with most of them it’s like: When I talk to them I already feel the whole bullshit of constant phone-calls, calling by and begging for marriage andsoforth in their aura. So, I then rather wither away with my teddy-bear in my bed than face the prospect of a series of problems.
    I guess teachers should be especially weary of all types of expectations and especially more weary even of creating the slightest longer-term expectation if that’s not what they want.

    And, in my opinion, if they are just interested in a machine-like person who offers sex on demand, they should simply hire prostitutes with a clear contract and that’s it.

    PS Send me a few ;)

    Giulia

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  316. Branch Davidians broke off from Davidians, who had broken off from the main body of Seventh Day Adventism.

    While I consider SDAs as a whole to qualify as a cult, there’s no doubt that things weirder as you branch further out.

    Why do you say I’m not a cult escapee? I am baffled as to how you and rickross are hoping to educate people about cults, yet are defending Adventism. It makes no sense.

    Are you saying that if someone came to you asking about Adventism, you’d advise them that it’s a fine religion, with zero dangers? If so, why?

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  317. p.s. Another day goes by, and DI refuses to remove the unverifiable claim of millions paid…
    Stop bleating on, unless you write a document which outlines your opinion this will be the last time we will
    respond on this thread. In fact you have been answered, but you have failed to find it as you have a presuppositional
    predisposition to avoid the answer.
    Write your response to the document, and we will submit it to our expert. We will publish it with his/her refutation.

    Send it info@dialogueireland .org

    Like

  318. Hi Bella,
    Rigpa may or may not be more of a cult than any other religion or sect, but you definitely act like a cult member.
    I find your comments about buddhism’s superiority offensive and ignorant. There are rich intellectual traditions in all the world’s major religions. Maybe you should look where your brain has been checked before you start pontificating.
    The other point that seems to lack a certain intellectual rigor is your implicit support of an extralegal, anonymous process of presenting “evidence.” Since we can’t possibly know the actual origin of the documents you are asking to post, you are only working to continue a process that at best has a dubious ethical basis.
    Even if I explain why I know Victoria Barlow is not completely truthful, you can’t be sure that I am not just doing what Mary is doing (i.e. making stuff up). The only reason I mentioned the thing about Victoria is that: it is true as far as I know and maybe if people knew there is at least another plausible story they will keep an open mind. The people on this site are trying to destroy Tibetan Buddhism and use very PRC-like Orwellian statements like they respect the Dalai Lama and they are trying to save the religion (yes it is obvious when you are dragging its most famous teachers through the mud).
    I hesitated to say the thing about the Marianne reporter, because it is essentially continuing the “my unverifiable word against yours” ethos that prevails here. But then, ANON, in all his or her wisdom implicitly corroborated my account. Ha!
    What we can do is examine the stuff that any of us can figure out and see if it stands up. If it does, then great it strengthens the stuff we can’t. But when it doesn’t, as in the case of millions were paid, or Mary didn’t know then she did, then she starred in the movie version, or forgetting to disclose a salient feature of an article, well then I think it means the stuff you can’t easily know is more dubious.
    But I digress. The more I read your posts, the more I worry about Tibetan Buddhism.
    Good luck!
    p.s. Another day goes by, and DI refuses to remove the unverifiable claim of millions paid…

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  319. “Adventistland= Waco and Jonestown. Is that what led you to Buddhism!”

    I can see you dialogueireland don’t have any respect for any religion. It’s fine.

    I consider the Buddhist philosophy to be more advanced than any other religious philosophy. In most religions there’s no philosophy, one has to leave the brain by the door when entering. For your knowledge I’m also open for other explanations about the universe, not just Buddhist. But on the level of religions I consider Buddhism far superior.

    Could you copy here the email from the abused Irish female? You could remove all the info that could reveal her. You could even ask her herself to modify her story so that we cannot identify her, in case that matters to her. I think a detailed description and also how the abuse occured, under what circumstances, with what motivation (SR’s and her own part) and so on… There is all kinds forms of abuse. I wouldn’t want to spend my nights in horror imagining terrible things and so I would like to know what actually happened. I think we all would appreciate it very much.

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  320. So they are as you have just told Adventists. Being a bit pedantic are we/ They are a branch office, Branch Davidians if you really want to get technical.
    Sheila is not a cult escapee, what she was referring to was looking on Rick Ross site and getting a flash back about her earlier life.
    Take a chill pill

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  321. Adventists are not Waco-ites. Waco-ites spun off a spinoff of Adventism.

    Thanks for mocking a cult escapee, though, while purporting to be here in support of such people.

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  322. Hi Sheila,
    In the case the actual complaint is matter of public record. What isn’t public is what if any settlement money changed hands and who paid what to whom. So we can’t tell from the complaint itself if any of the complaint was deemed substantive. Usually even in a strong case extra stuff is piled in to the complaint so that opposing counsel has to waste time and resources on useless stuff. It is a common tactic.

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  323. -Adventistland= Waco and Jonestown. Is that what led you to Buddhism!
    Again with the laughing= Bhagvan

    /weeping/ any group

    drinking thing. Soory Jonestown again=Koolaid

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  324. I finally made it to 1994 in the Superior Court of California – County of Santa Cruz.

    I can’t find anything on this for Nov 2, 1994, nor under Sogyal, nor under Janice Doe, nor under 159647. Not doubting it exists yet, just letting you know I tried a lot of things before bringing it up.

    Like

  325. You know, I find it odd that the references to the 1994 case mention that Janice Doe was ” subjected to abuse, harassment, coercion, sexual assaults and battery at the hands of the Lama,” followed by, “no details are available about the case.”

    And further, “’Sogyal claimed (she) would be strengthened and healed by having sex with him and that to be hit by a lama was a blessing,’the lawsuit states.”

    I mean, how were these details themselves gotten? How did the people accusing Sogyal Rinpoche of all this get access to the lawsuit if there’s a non-disclosure agreement? Is there some kind of summary (I mean legal summary, not accusers’ summary!) available to read somewhere, that contains these details?

    Like

  326. Hi Shona,

    Please don’t be turned off forever. I think that is the ultimate aim of some the posters here. There are lots of great teachers out there and I hope you find one soon.

    Best Wishes!

    Like

  327. Well, people scream at each other about hurling and football, too. Maybe that’s why I’m not watching the Packer game tonight…at any rate, good luck to yourself and god(s)speed! Er…

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  328. Ah yes, see what you mean, Shiela, thanks for clarification-refering to another site is very confusing. Anyway, you have a point. Now then, this is my last post, but it really does turn me off religion and all it’s manifestations. Good luck to you all. Play nicely :)

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  329. I’m sorry, Shona – I was referring to a previous post in this thread where I mentioned that the rickross forum informed me bluntly that Adventism wasn’t a cult. I’m a fourth-generation Adventist (well, was). I just find it ironic that, given their mission, they of all people would loudly defend an organization’s non-cult status, at least without hearing more from an actual member of that cult.

    My point was that sometimes on these anti-cult forums, I feel like some of the people raging against cults are themselves so entrenched in their mission that they (however accidentally) are creating a cultish atmosphere.

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  330. ANON. You don’t like people swearing, I don’t like SHOUTY CAP LOCKS,or your style. I think you’re a hypocrite, using low tactics, to stop people talking. Anyway, last post here for me. Good luck to you ANON.

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  331. Shiela, what are you talking about? I can’t be alone in not knowing what the hell you’re referring to, please if you’re going to post, be clear about what you are saying. You’re obviously very clever as you speak Irish and Chinese and are peppering your posts with references to conspiracies…am beginning to wonder if you’re away with the fairies too. Please don’t assume we know what you are talking about.

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  332. Hey Shona-thanks for your assessment of who is winning-after all its not about people,but who is ‘winning’ isnt it? As for your distaste at my use of caps-I DONT GIVE A FLYING *****.)
    Rant on zealots everywhere-the only folk who really know are Sogyal and his victims.Sometimes the truth hurts

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  333. You know, I’m finding it hard to get past the Red Dakini of Phayul and Blue Dakini of rickross thing. Add to that the Rich Idle Man’s 16-minute response time, and the Western Shugden Sandwich is complete.

    I still want to know what Rich Idle Man meant when he said we would bring misfortune on ourselves by talking about this. I sincerely hope this was just a well-intentioned reference to karma, as opposed to karma-dot-cn.

    I’ve never felt so back-in-Adventistland as I have wandering through these “anti-cult” forums of late, lol. Again with the laughing/weeping/drinking thing.

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  334. 1. We checked out the report.
    2. We discussed it with her therapist in confidence.
    3. She wrote to the President herself!
    4. I first became aware of this issue at an Inform Conference under Eileen Barker at the LSE in 1997.
    Not 2007, but 1997. Guess what Eileen does in her value free sociological method, even she got it!!
    5. I heard the testimony of a French woman who confirmed the reports of abuse at this conference.
    6. I suggest you ask Inform for their briefing document on this issue.
    Anything else. You have more time as you have 5 hours to spare.
    Talk again

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  335. DI-Sorry I don’t understand the red card reference.

    And if your authentic response to my calling you out for publishing speculation as fact is to ban me then that is your choice. And not-so-subtle threats aimed to get me to limit or modify my speech seem ironic for a site that puts Dialogue in its name..

    Why do you object to having our discussion in the public eye? Someone raised the point about the settlement claims as bogus years ago and it looks like one of your volunteers went off the rails in response. You certainly have had enough time to verify the veracity of the claim. What’s up?

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  336. I have read and absorbed.

    I just simply don’t understand how you can say “We received a report from an Irish woman who was sexually assaulted by your man,” as if it was God’s own truth, acting as judge and jury.

    I, too, believe people and take many things at face value; but that is personally. You simply cannot try and convict a man in your own mind and then pretend to be fostering fair public dialogue about the issue.

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  337. She backed off lending her support to the Allihies branch of Rigpa!

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  338. As the person who delivered the message through our legal canon law expert, we call it saving face. See if you can see any comment of our former President to SR after that date?

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  339. DI, I’m sorry – I’m at work. My typing box stays up on the screen and sometimes by the time I hit “post comment,” another post has come in.

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  340. Sheila you consistently type before you have read what you are referring to them have to back track. Let me be clear. I have never even heard of THom Canada.
    This person is not our adviser. I would suggest you neither write or read till you take ten seconds to actually absorb the previous comment.

    Can I be clearer!

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  341. Sorry, DI – our message crossed – you’re saying McAleese backed off in 2009? Backed off of what?

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  342. In what manner did an t-Uachtarán distance herself from Sogyal Rinpoche?

    I find only Oakley’s 2009 Times article mentioning that, upon providing “details of the 1994 case” to her office, her office responded, “President McAleese often sends welcome messages to international conferences taking place in Ireland on a wide range of themes.”

    I could only hope to be distanced like this. But seriously, don’t you find it a reach to call this “distancing?”

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  343. We received a report from an Irish woman who was sexually assaulted by your man.
    she wrote to the President without effect in 2007 when the President opened the joint.
    In 2009 she got the message and she backed off. She was part of that woolly ecumenics that has lost the salt .
    It worked in NI but it was not on in West Cork. You seem to love using Irish from your westerly point of reference.

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  344. Write your response to the document, and we will submit it to our expert. We will publish it with his/her refutation.
    And stop trying to get another player to get a red card. You are close to one yourself for provoking the referee.
    Send it info@dialogueireland .org

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  345. So Thom Canada offered himself as the Buddhist adviser to Dialogue Ireland when news broke that President Mary McAleese was set for a meet-and-greet with Sogyal Rinpoche. And he’s been advising Ireland ever since.

    Thinks just became very much clearer. I don’t know whether to laugh, weep, drink, or all three.

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  346. I find it quite despicable of you, ANON, that you are naming anon-la, in an attempt to ‘out’ her or him. You post very aggressively and to be frank, having little time for Rigpa, am feeling you are losing this argument, by your below the belt tactics, and your hypocrisy. You post endlessly yet berate people for posting at all…you attempt to stifle discussion BY USING SHOUTY CAPS LOCK. Be careful that you don’t alientate people by your tactics. I think Shiela and Anon-la are a bit more courteous than you, and I know you are desperate for people to agree with you, but you’re not winning any arguments here, as far as I’m concerned.

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  347. Dear Erric (I dont beleive you ‘Ha ha ha’)

    What would be the point of DIs Buddhist commentator engaging with you?

    You seem to be unwilling to accept anything that you find distasteful and your responses, while claiming logical superiority are basically nothing more than that, claims of logical superiority. I doubt that he or she would have the time or inclination to debate with someone who has already decided what the truth is.

    As to the amount of the settlement, what difference does the precise amount make exactly?

    You have implicitly accepted the settlement took place so now answer me one thing: If you were suing for ten million, how much would you settle for. a dollar fifty?

    As for who bears ultimate responsibility for what is posted here, I think that responsibilty lies in the hands of Sogyal=thats where it all started. How does he intend to address that? Oh I forgot-he doesnt

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  348. How was Áras an Uachtaráin compromised by visiting Beara?

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  349. Di-Thank you for the clarification. I am not asking him or her to identify their real name but would they be willing to come on to a new thread and answer my questions? In the full light of day, well except both the expert and I prefer to remain anonymous…

    And while it is kind of you to to help clarify the situation, you do bear ultimate responsibility for what is posted in the briefing doc. So as I have already raised one place the document is wrong, and will go one to some others, how do you intend to address that?

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  350. I would still like to know Thom Canada’s relationship to DI = 0
    however, if he is directly involved with DI that changes my thinking completely on DI’s role in many ways.
    DI does not post material at all, but has a Buddhist expert whose commentary we publish. He joins you in the fray. He has had
    an ongoing role since we started this section. The context was our President Mary McAleese being compromised
    by her involvement with SR.

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  351. You know, I’ve given the Guardian articles way too much benefit of doubt.

    Rereading the 2010 piece, I see: Shangri-La, feudal, murdered young, lamas, medieval.

    In my last effort here to believe in someone, I guess I could picture a journalist having a genuine theory, and then turning (however unwisely) to some dot-cn source material (why?! But oh well).

    But the dot-cn link is undeniable. Or dot-cn via Melvyn, whatever. I guess it could be Melvyn. Is there a Jewish purgatory, lol?

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  352. Hi Anon,
    First of all you guessed wrong. Ha Ha Ha. Or perhaps this is some kind of trick where you think that I will reveal my identity just to prove you are wrong If so, guess again.

    Anyway, you will do anything to shift the story away from the fact that, so far you have been unable to counter my logic with reason.

    I never said you were a PRC propagandist, I just said those are the people you are siding with. And you seem to share some of the same ideas about the appropriateness of dissent.

    Second, it is hard not to overlook the fact that just like Mary when your hand is caught in the cookie jar you bob and weave. O yeah, and try to demonize your debate opponent.

    At least you confirmed that fact that I have accurate inside information.It is true that my french friends, while not Rigpa students likely know some. Mary claims to know stuff, is she part of the inner circle too? The Tibetan Buddhist world isn’t that big. I have been around for a long, long time and have lots of friends all over the world.

    As to your claim that you are part of a group of people trying to save the good name of your religion, my response is bull shit!

    If that was your aim you would never, ever try to tie His Holiness publicly to this mess. The fact that you would do that publicly, just shows what your true aim is. If I have a dear friend who I respect with all my heart who is doing something I do not agree with, I simply would never publicly drag their name through the dirt. This simple act speaks volumes about Mary’s so called respect for HHDL. And if you guys had even the slightest understanding of how Tibetans are culturally, you simply would never use this tactic and expect it to work.

    Maybe HHDL and Mingyur Rinpoche have concluded that Sogyal RInpoche is innocent? I don’t know His Holiness very well, but Mingyur Rinpoche is one of the highest integrity individuals I have ever come across. So I would have to conclude that he would only send his students to a Lama with the highest qualification.

    I really have way of knowing why Rigpa or Sogyal Rinpoche haven’t responded to anything.

    But in relation to the case, the reason is obvious and I already stated it above. In cases like this, the standard settlement means neither party can comment except to say the case was settled.

    First of all the Guardian article doesn’t say millions. Second of all sometimes small details in a story that by world standards is insignificant don’t get vetted as they should.

    In the newspapers I know about you need two sources. So maybe Mary provided them with two people who will say what she needs them to say. But the fact remains that either these people made the story up or they are in breech of a legally binding document and therefore can’t be trusted. Prove that wrong. You can not. Ergo DI is repeating information that is likely false as fact.

    So, we have an unproven millions paid, a report on Lerab Ling by a reporter who hid their bias in order to give credibility to the story, and more to come.

    And DI in all its integrity won’t withdraw an error.

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  353. Mary and criticism toward Tibet in general:

    “The bubble burst in 1994 when the lama Sogyal Rinpoche was sued for sexual harassment by an American woman known as Janice Doe. The lawsuit was settled out of court, but it triggered an avalanche of revelations on the internet about sexual and financial misconduct by Tibetan lamas. Some of them were lunatic fringe, but many were intelligent, reflective and soberly factual.

    I followed these developments with a growing sense of disillusionment. My Shangri-La version of old Tibet crumbled with the realisation that alongside the focus on spirituality, the Tibetan social order was top-down hierarchical, xenophobic, feudal and in many instances ruthless and cruel. The present Dalai Lama is the 14th in a line of reincarnations. Several of his predecessors were murdered while still young, by regents determined to hang on to power. It also became clear to me that the lamas I respected as Buddhist teachers were medieval in their attitudes towards women.” http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/jul/06/religion-buddhism-dalai-lama-tibet

    I know many become disillusioned after the honey moon period (as SR calls it, the first 5 years). Mary just extends her disappointment by writing articles and making a living out of it. I wonder if there is a need to be a female heroine behind it?

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  354. At least post as Spairt a’ gCus, lol.

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  355. “bella-you forgot all the other articles…”

    yes, because they are based on her original article.

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  356. Well, careful with that moniker or you, too, may freak out the good folks of Corcaigh na gCuan.

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  357. Mary doesnt post here any more-I am Spartacus

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  358. Sorry, thats Erric, (double R), the well known Rigpa insider, who is obviously here purely by coincidence and in the interest of free speech…..as long as it doesnt involve criticism of a certian well known Tibetan ‘lama’ (thats one ‘L’)

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  359. Mary, I’m trying to keep this all straight – are you Mary Finnigan, Pema, Christie, ANON and some of the anonymouses (anonymice)? It’s okay, but I’m just trying to figure out who I’m talking to.

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  360. bella-you forgot all the other articles

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  361. And BTW for others reading the above piece by ‘Anon-la’. just ask yourself one simple question. How could this person possibly have knowledge of all these supposed facts about journalists and what happened in France recently (supposedly) without being a member of the Rigpa inner circle?

    And for you Eric, heres a question. Does everyone who condemns Sogyal Lakars behaviour have to be a Chinese propagandist? Could there be one or two amongst the critics who are desperate to save the good face of their religion while certain, spoilt Tibetans s**t all over it by abusing their position?

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  362. Guardian accepts everything as a fact when it can be read in the Wikipedia?

    Mary Finnigan wrote both the original article in 1994 and the one in 2011. Then the same story reappears again and again.

    Wikipedia:
    16. Finnigan, Mary. “Sexual healing,” The Guardian, 10th January 1995, p. 19

    20. Guardian, Mary Finigan ‘Lama sex abuse claims call Buddhist taboos into question’

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  363. Dear Eric
    Perhaps Rigpa can produce something to confirm that he did not.
    IN the meantime, can you explain why, Sogyal did not respond to this in the Guardian newspaper Friday 1 July 2011, nor indeed to the numerous other publications to which you refer above

    “In November 1994 an American woman known as Janice Doe filed a $10m lawsuit against the Tibetan lama Sogyal Rinpoche, charging him with sexual, mental and physical abuse. The case was dealt with out of court and Janice Doe signed a non-disclosure agreement in return for a cash settlement.”

    How much evidence do you need? I suggest you take a look at the Guardians reputation as being one of the most rigorous of all UK broadsheets, in terms of its checking the legality of everything it publishes before it goes to press. It is second to none, indeed the paper is famed for its strict adherence to publishing law amongst journalists.

    Is publication of the information in a national newspaper with such a reputation still not enough? If so, I would suggest you need to extract your head from the sand a little (unless youve inserted it in another dark place where you cant see anything!) I repeat, why, if it is untrue have none of the newspapers who published this information ever been the subject of litigation??

    PS Attempts to link me to the PRC are risible to the extreme-If only you knew, But there again, Im no ‘big wheel’ on the Buddhist scene, as you purport to be, so how could you

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  364. So…we should stop the discussion because we’re having a discussion?

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  365. yeah, here is just a free for all – and the important points get swept under the carpet. like allowing for a balanced reasonable discussion. where each side is allowed to be heard. .How convenient!

    By the way some posters here are averaging on 15 posts per day – hello that’s 15.

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  366. Dear ANON,
    It is utterly ridiculous to try to draw any analogy between what goes on here and what goes on at a civil trial. In a trial witnesses are deposed under oath, and the opposing council is allowed to cross examine. This website is an attempt to circumvent the system of jurisprudence. Witnesses are not under oath, some like myself remain anonymous, and you call any kind of challenge to the so-called “evidence” (which is always allowed in western courts) as a fascist attack on free speech. That surely is the pot calling the kettle black. A shining example of lynch mob justice, you are standing tall with the PRC. Hope you like the world it will bring.

    Most of the newspaper stories you cite merely regurgitate the same allegations over and over. None of them state anything beyond the fact that the suit was settled. As I stated before, you can’t even know who paid what to whom or if any money was paid.

    Your logic is like the people who defended the flat earth theory. It is flat because everyone says so, it is just common sense. In fact, that was a reasonable conclusion, it was common sense that the earth is flat. Completely reasonable, and completely wrong.

    So, the thing I don’t get is why you are so afraid of the truth about the lack of any proof about the claims of the settlement sum? DI could be a bunch of manipulative scumbags and still it is possible the Soyal Rinpoche has done something inappropriate. Your arguments make no sense.

    So, dig this dude: Friends from france just emailed me. The reporter on the Marianne article is a good friend of Mimi the person who appears in the “documentary.” Surely Mary knows this. Definitely the reporter knows this. So why don’t they want you to know this? Because it obviously undermines the credibility of the story. The reporter didn’t go to Lerab Ling as a clean slate in order to write about what happened. The reporter came on a mission, and has an extremely biased perspective. Ok bias doesn’t mean that what she says didn’t happen. So why hide the bias? Why doesn’t the reporter disclose that at the start of the article? Why doesn’t Mary tell us that when she first reported on how dynamite the article is?
    The answer is obvious, the are trying to spin you. And you just take the bait hook, line and sinker…

    p.s. Another day and no comment from DI as to what basis they stand by allegation that Sogyal RInpoche paid millions. Hmmmmh

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  367. Sheila: in 1999 I saw a Shugden statue at people who claim not to practise this. I did not mean anything to me as I hardly knew how Shugden is supposed to look like (the rest you can read in “First poisoning(s) – Dordogne”).

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  368. Why don’t they liberate their fears into the Great Expanse of Dharmakaya??

    Giulia

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  369. Giulia – I don’t understand. Were the ones you are worried about anti-Shugden, or pro-Shugden?

    Btw, all, why did Christie evaporate?

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  370. “Funny” how “they” teach “everything is empty”, “all is relative”, etc. and then attempt to kill someone over a mere nothing

    Giulia

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  371. And I don’t think my “noise” is what the home office has in mind, lol.

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  372. Yeah…sorry. I’m too hasty.

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  373. Yeah, three consecutive posts is evidence of that ;) (S o H)

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  374. Have indeed “seeked help”, thank you. Reports of hospital Sarlat-la-Caneda, laboratory analysis pills, expert’s knowledge on poison, embassies, police, friends who work for tv, newspapers, “certain lamas”.
    People who kill someone because s/he has seen a Shugden statue and Orgyen Trinley naked and has had had Nogdrup Palzom begging at her door to teach her the alphabet are the ones in need of psychiatric help, or, in fact of prison custody, not me.

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  375. However…I remain mindful of the Wumao directive to “create noise.”

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  376. “to” seek help. You said it in a mean way. If you really think someone’s on the edge, making them feel worse won’t help.

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  377. You didn’t say it a way that would remotely lead the person so seek help.

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  378. Oh come on and wake up. If someone exhibits clear symptoms and somebody tells them so and advises them to seek help, thats ‘cruel and hypocritical’ get real. A friend would tell you that, a doctor would tell you that. So are they cruel? You may not have noticed but life isnt ‘nice’ and, before you make any further assumptions, Buddhism isnt about puppies and little girls being made of sugar and spice.

    Nothing detracts from this serious issue more than trolls airing ridiculous conspiracy theories about ‘the red (robes) under their bed’ who harbor the intention of killing them. It has nothing to do with the Sogyal issue. If you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen

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  379. “…in civil law, one only needs to prove ‘on the balance of probability that an offence has been committed.’

    In civil law, there is not a judgement of “guilty” or “innocent.” Civil court is a place to bargain with sums of money until both parties reach a mutually-accepted price.

    If my father had not been exonerated but instead taken to court, he might well have settled because there’s likely no way we could have afforded to pay a lawyer for the luxury of an “innocent” trophy.

    People settle for many reasons – convenience, fear, finances, embarrassment, lack of confidence in their case, to name a few. These reasons often apply to both parties.

    Important: one may choose a civil lawsuit as a way to continue to pursue justice after a “not guilty” or “guilty” verdict in a criminal case. Was there a criminal case against Sogyal Rinpoche, preceding the civil case, in which he was found not guilty? Or did Janice Doe not attempt a criminal case?

    If Janice Doe did not attempt a criminal case, either she didn’t feel like a trial, or her lawyers didn’t feel they had a case. It’s also possible Sogyal Rinpoche’s lawyers didn’t feel they had a case. If she did attempt a criminal case, Sogyal Rinpoche was found “not guilty.”

    You continue to think I’m a Rigpa person, and I continue to believe United Front is involved. You may feel that sucks for your cause, and I can guarantee you it sucks for mine. At least the PRC is practicing equanimity.

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  380. People – please consider the weight of your actions before telling someone they need to “stop posting and seek psychiatric help.” That is cruel, and hypocritical. In a free (and hopefully kind) world, everyone has the right to express their feelings, opinions, and experience.

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  381. So actually, youre not here for the Sogyal issue at all, just to slag off Tib Biddhism-it is, after all, becoming very fahionable for those who dont have sufficient intelligence to discern the difference between tibetan feudalist thought and the religion they stood guardian over for so long I suggest you join Thomas Canada et al, thats one of their favorites…..and there are LOADS of crazies in the NKT!!!

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  382. NB Many Tibetan lamas live in a “bad trip” — don’t need to go far back in history —- just a pity they are exporting their bad trips abroad…

    Giulia

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  383. Already have made up report at the police, Anon. Word will spread soon now that buddhism is not that nicey nicey peaceful religion.

    Giulia

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  384. For me, true ‘on the balance of probability;, based on my reading of substantial evidence not just ‘Mary Finnigan’s dossier and a few not so detailed, quite vague stories’), is enough. SO that’s me. For you its NOT enough, so thats you.
    Now why not leave everyone else to make up their own minds on the basis of their own judgements and perceptions, rather than posting here and repeatedly claiming that everyone who disagrees with you is a deluded liar. You have a right to believe what you want-they have a right to believe what they want. BUT HOW CAN THEY FORM OPINIONS IF YOU CONTINUOUSLY DISCREDIT ANY INFORMATION THAT DOESNT FIT IN WITH YOUR WORLD VIEW? IS IT REALLY THE CASE THAT ONLY THE RIGPA VIEW OF THE UNIVERSE IS VALID? IS EVERYONE ELSE DELUDED? DOESNT THAT SOUND EVEN SLIGHTLY FASCISTIC AND DICTATORIAL TO YOU?

    ps Giulia-you need help-seek it please because the world you live in seems like some sort of bad trip

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  385. can PEOPLE please stOP using Cap LOCKs…it makes YOU all LOOK like RaviNG LOONIES.

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  386. If you were a student of SR and he had opened your heart and mind, gave you hope in times of difficulties, would you just abandon the scene without knowing the truth?

    For me Mary Finnigan’s dossier and a few not so detailed, quite vague stories are NOT enough. I NEED to know the TRUTH. If you don’t need that level of accuracy, please stop demanding us to accept what is enough for you.

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  387. If you were a student of SR, wouldn’t you want to be absolutely sure? If he had opened your heart and mind, would you just give up, because of Mary Finnigan and a few vague stories by few others?

    I really NEED to KNOW. For me vague is not acceptable.

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  388. Psychopaths who are proven guilty of several attempts to murder the one they have seeked help at should be locked up forever & are advised to undergo psychoanalitical treatment.

    Giulia

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  389. Anon,

    I would suggest you read my posts carefully and then clearly conclude that the people who have been involved in several attempts to murder me -proven- should be locked up in prison instead of posing like boddhisattvas on thrones.
    Your messages to me clearly testify of lack of reading my posts well & lack of compassion.

    Giulia

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  390. Dear Giulia
    Could you please refrain from using expletives here and seek psychiatrists advice before you continue posting The content of your mails exhibit clear symptoms of psychiatric illness

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  391. At least SOGYAL does not organize a series of attempts to murder one because one happens to know the fxxxxx-buddy.

    Giulia

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  392. In law, there are generally two levels of crime/law: civil and criminal. In a criminal case, one has to prove ‘beyond all reasonable doubt’ that an offence has been committed; in civil law, one only needs to prove ‘on the balance of probability that an offence has been committed.

    In the case of Sogyal, numerous allegations have been made down the years, these allegations all being of a remarkably similar nature. As a result of these allegations there has been a multi million dollar law suit against S, a case which by a simple process of deduction, was clearly settled out of court. There have been newspaper articles in several reputable papers and magazines, antional and international, numerous pieces on the internet and even a well publicised television documentary ALL alleging the same type of misconduct. NONE of this increasing number of references to Sogyals alleged sexual misconduct, which is unacceptable if it occurred because of the breach of fiduciary care regardless of Sogyals non ordained status, has been legally challenged by Rigpa. NOT A SINGLE ONE.

    In such a situation,one is free to make ones own conclusions vis a vis the allegations.In the case of those who choose to consider thejm to be true, this number is clearly increasing.

    In response to this Sogyals supporters are posting here, repeatedly denying the validity of the allegations and slandering those who consider the allegations as true as deluded xenophobes, and notably, demanding evidence ‘beyond all reasonable doubt’ that the allegations are true.

    From a wider perspective, in the legal profession, it is recognised that one need not provide such evidence to secure conviction. In civil cases, as already stated, a conviction would, in this case, be a very clear possibility.That is why so many reasonable people have reached the conclusion that S is guilty.

    As a defence, apart from slandering critics, S supporters are here demanding the ‘smoking gun’; in the face of growing doubts about the reliability of their teacher, and an increasing level of criticism across the media, as well as further and further allegations, followers are demanding ‘evidence’.

    This demand for evidence is the last line of defence of the desperate. In a situation where all the (increasing) circumstantial evidence and allegations point to the veracity of critics claims, where else could his supporters go? What other defence could be offered?

    In such a situation, the demand for evidence is surely one that should be being made by critics and not supporters. Is it not reasonable that they should want evidence that these claims ARE not true, when so much seems to point to their validity?

    Such a claim would further be a reasonable one for supporters of S to answer. After all, it would clear his name and confirm the validity of their faith. Why do they not address this? Why is it that they se their own claim for evidence as reasonable but those of their critics as unreasonable?

    The two claims appear to be similar. However, there is one important difference. One request for clarification is made to clarify the truth or otherwise of an issue; the other is simply a last ditch attempt to discredit critics and cast doubt on the allegations.

    It is up to the reader to make their own decision as to whether or not S is guilty of abuse, who is the reasonable here and whether S’s supporters are behaving reasonably or in the manner of unyielding zealots, zealots determined, not just to bury there own heads in the sand in regard to the allegations against their mentor, but also everyone else’s.

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  393. A friend sent me the following article: http://www.marianne2.fr/Le-lama-Rinpoche-a-Paris-pas-si-zen-ces-bouddhistes_a211593.html

    When I read a bit about the work of “Mimi”, my first (and still lasting) thought was: “Ok, send me also someone who washes me, dresses me, puts me in the car and takes care of the catering in the car; this would make me very tranquil and buddha-like”. But also: “Why doesn’t Sogyal Rinpoche separate the mentioned tasks from consort-ship, i.e. why have one and the same person for this?” But is none of my business, of course. In the meanwhile, it seems to me most of us are mainly jealous with having someone doing all this type of work for us.

    Giulia

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  394. anonl la=you are free to believe what you want, as are others/ If you read all the posts here, from the beginning, you will see why it is obvious that sr settled-if you were an insider you would even know the names of the westerners who bought out janice doe (among them a certain Monty Python) everybody on the inside at rigpa knows this, as do many people associated with Tib Budd for a long period of time. You keep asking for proof. YOU NEED TO PROVE YOUR OWN POSITION BECAUSE WHAT EVIDENCE THERE IS IS AGAINST YOU-YOUR REPEATED ASSERTIONS THAT DI HAS NOT PROVEN THE CASE ARE A SMOKESCREEN-YOU NEED TO PROVIDE PROOF.
    Remember if it swims like a duck and it quacks like a duck……….SRT IS A KNOWN ABUSER, You just refuse to accept it

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  395. I agree that I’m an emotional person, can be provoked and can provoke. ANON is quite emotional too, if I may say so. Most of the time I write without any emotion and ask people to explain themselves. I hardly ever get answers. Just being blamed for provocation and trolling. In the last post I think I listed (without emotion) my criticism, just facts. I will not get any decent response to that, I believe.

    About Victoria Barlow: I made comments about how she appears UNREAL because I just look at her mouth (and eyes) in the video and it looks unreal what she talks. I haven’t said I BELIEVE your comment yet. I have asked you to tell how you know. If you don’t tell, then you use same tactics as everyone else her: say something without proof.

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  396. Was digging ill-advisedly through rickross to fact-check a few things…wow. Just…wow. Seriously, that forum should include a link to itself.

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  397. Well, Bella since you asked…
    I often find your posts incredibly emotional and indulging in the same kind of subjective perspective presented as a valid fact that everyone else here seems to engage in. I cut you a bit more slack than some of the others, because clearly you are at a disadvantage when communicating in written English.
    But, for example, when I mentioned that Victoria Barlow is not telling the truth you responded so quickly with: “Anon-la’s comment made me look at Barlow on the video more carefully – and true: she looks like a naive big child telling a story. I don’t see ANY emotion in her when she talks about HER so-called experience. Feels UNREAL.”
    Actually, it doesn’t really matter what it made you feel and this is exactly like a lot of the posts that Mary makes except she is way, way better at expressing herself in written English. How you feel it is just isn’t an argument one way or the other. And if I am going to call one side out on this sort thing, I am also going to call it out on the other side.
    Sankappa reads crap on the internet and then realizes Sogyal Rinpoche is a inauthentic teacher (BTW -Sakappa it is not a sign of spiritual maturity to receive high teachings from even a fake teacher and then slag them off on the internet. The next time you are requesting a Dzogchen master to give you teachings, make sure you tell them about your recent performance and see where it gets you). Anon believes his feeling about Mary’s utterly ridiculous claims on the authorship of TBLD in the face of no credible evidence. And Bella looks at the video and feels that Victoria is fake because she heard me say so. YIKES!
    So why am I pointing out all these inconsistencies in Mary’s stories, DI’s briefing document and the documentary. Because in the lynch mob like rush to justice and blood lust to hang the colored guy, you have all left reason at the door.
    Yes the issue is about sexually inappropriate behavior and possibly abuse. As everyone knows there is a lot of grey area in these things and it is notoriously hard to prove. Therefore, we have to examine the messenger. And since many of the things the messenger’s are saying are misleading, wrong and sometimes outright purposeful misstatements of the truth, it is fair to then question the things that are much harder to know.
    And to the nice person who is calling me out on “using the race card.” Well, it is a funny that as soon as I point out even small inconsistencies in the talking points, I get called all kinds of names and meet all kinds of hostility or refusals to even have a dialogue. Sounds a lot like mob justice, string’em up, hang the wog, and suppress anyone who tries to offer another view. It is laughable that people are actually claiming that Rigpa is trying to suppress anything, If they are, they have certainly done a terrible job. Just google Sogyal Rinpoche and see that this stuff is on page one.
    Dialog Ireland is incapable of proving that Sogyal Rinpoche paid millions of dollars. Why? Because all the court records will say is that the case was settled. Anyone who tells you a number is either lying or in breach of a legal document that they signed. Yet DI, nonetheless will not retract it. Certainly whatever you think the case is with SR, you have to agree that this kind of action is morally reprehensible.
    Isn’t the world kind of screwed up because people don’t talk AND listen enough to one another? So if you agree all of you will drop the anger and engage in a reasonable discussion with an open heart and mind. And if not you will continue to bob and weave and hurl invectives from your keyboard.

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  398. Mingyur Rinpoche could very well be corrupt as he remarked to me, laughing, when I visited him in Sherab Ling: “So, someone has been throwing stones in your garden at nighttime?” I told him I was surprised he knew this and he laughed. It most probably was one of the Orgyen Trinleys trying to come to visit me (again) at my place in Bir (India).

    Giulia

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  399. 100% true and tomorrow reporting to police here!

    Giulia

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  400. I haven’t said everyone is a liar.

    Where are the people who have been abused?

    – Janice Doe: no-one knows what happened
    – Tiger Lily: ?
    – Victoria Barlow: weak link?
    – “Mimi”: was asked to take her clothes off
    – anybody else, I can’t remember?

    The rest are sealed into Mary Finnigan’s dossier. They’ve been there for decades, until she dies, I guess.

    Mary Finnigan hasn’t actually revealed ANYTHING, nothing at all.

    My criticism toward MF is about her comprehensive package of slander wrapped in swear words:
    1. sexual abuser ????
    2. rapist ????
    3. narcissist (all the love he has to offer… doesn’t make sense, narcissits are hollow people, like ghosts)
    4. cigar smoker (smoking blocks subtle channels)
    5. beer drinker (he cannot drink alcohol, he said)
    6. porn watcher (who hadn’t watched porn at least once? it’s available for free in the internet)
    7. financial abuser (for what? cigars, porn, sex? – or to help Buddhist monasterios in the East?)

    I could say that most of it doesn’t match at all. About the ???? things I haven’t found – so far – very good proof.

    There was a story by Giulia about her ‘strange experiences’. I don’t know if anybody thought they were invented? They could have been, but they had so many details that we can relate to – at least on some level – that her stories seem real, even though bizarre. I have been waiting for such stories to appear. Not bizarre ones, but so detailed I could consider them real. Is it too much to ask? (This is not a hint to the Chinese propagandists, even though I am quite sure they wouldn’t be able to write such true sounding stories.)

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  401. I realize someone else who monitors this forum could have called him, too – wouldn’t have had to be DI.

    Sorry (as usual) for the threefer…

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  402. I would still like to know Thom Canada’s relationship to DI – is there a direct one, or does he just monitor it so closely that he responded in 16 minutes of my posting his name? He certainly has the right to; however, if he is directly involved with DI that changes my thinking completely on DI’s role in many ways.

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  403. Abuse is a crime; harassment may or may not be; uncomfortable dates aren’t.

    Who are the people, and what are they alleging? The only way to find the truth is to start being more clear and specific (on all sides).

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  404. Thats it bella-keep asking the same questions-even though the answers have been given a 1000 times.. Clutch at straws Vicky barlow lied-so attack the chain of criticism at its weakest link. I guess all the people who alleged abuse were liars too eh?

    ‘I’ve been in Rigpa for a decade and seen a lot. Why I wouldn’t be able to share my knowledge? ” Fine share BUT ALLOW OTHERS THE FREEDOM TO SHARE THEIR EXPERIENCE, EVEN IF IT DOESNT CONCUR WITH YOURS

    ‘Why somebody like Mary Finnigan who obviously haven’t BEEN there since the 70′s should be allowed to tell invented stories that have no basis in reality?’ WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE THAT IT IS UNTRUE? HER EXPERIENCE IS AS VALID AS YOURS EXCEPT SHE ISNT BLINDED BY THE CATARACT OF BLIND FAITH
    Her comment in the TV program (in you tube) didn’t say anything informative except her own view in a demeaning tone: “flagrantly promiscuous…er, which was nothing more than bellas own view, in a demeaning tone

    Now Anon-la seems to know (?) that Barlow lied in the video. I’m really anxious to know how she knows that and what is the true story. YOU HAVE YOUR VERSION OF THE TRUE STORY ALREADY FABRICATED. OTHERS HAVE THEIRS

    Maybe Anon-la’s comment made me look at Barlow on the video more carefully – and true: she looks like a naive big child telling a story. I don’t see ANY emotion in her when she talks about HER so-called experience. Feels UNREAL.WELL, IF IT FEELS UNREAL TO BELLA IT MUST BE FALSE FOR EVERYONE
    .
    Clutch at straws Vicky barlow lied-so attack the chain of criticism at its weakest link. I guess all the people who alleged abuse were liars too ehThats it bella-keep asking the same questions-even though the answers have been given a 1000 times.. Clutch at straws Vicky barlow lied-so attack the chain of criticism at its weakest link. I guess all the people who alleged abuse were liars too IN THAT CASE EH

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  405. TBLD was forwarded by HHDL. That means that as far as HHDL was concerned, it was good information and appropriate for releasing.

    The Great Liberation Through Hearing was itself released, now, in the fullest form ever, and the great teachers, translators and editors who made it possible did so only after it was agreed on (by enough teachers) that it was appropriate. So with Great Liberation on the bookshelves, there’s absolutely no problem with TBLD.

    Let’s say Sogyal Rinpoche did any number of things ranging from abuse to crimes. If those trying to research this say untrue things like “Sogyal Rinpoche violated Buddhism by releasing TBLD,” those who know that isn’t true then wonder if the other allegations are similarly flimsy.

    The sexual allegations may not be flimsy at all, but if you keep surrounding them with other false statements, you don’t help anyone get to the bottom of the story.

    For me, the Dharma question has been asked and answered (regarding TBLD) – HHDL endorsed it, I saw with my own eyes and brain it was compassionate, helpful information, and I’m trying to let that remain separate from the issue of how Sogyal may or may not conduct himself after hours. It’s not been easy. I’ve been very sad these past weeks, but I guess there’s supposed to be a lesson in there somewhere–baby/bathwater, etc.

    The remaining questions (to me) about Sogyal Rinpoche are:

    1. Did Sogyal Rinpoche commit a crime? (I’m not that interested in his personal sex life).

    2. Is there evidence of a crime, and if so, what is it?

    The remaining questions (to me) about those accusing Sogyal Rinpoche are:

    1. Why isn’t there solid stuff to work with – why does it all seem so tabloidy? Don’t people genuinely want to get a result?

    2. What was the 1994 settlement? (Because I think getting that info will be revealing).

    3. Why is Thom Canada, a dedicated WSS guy, at the root of several of those bringing accusations against Sogyal Rinpoche? That alone would be enough to (almost) make me write the whole thing off.

    4. Why are these “western” spikes coinciding with the Chinese internet commentator spikes in activity? Either side ought to have more discipline if they want credibility.

    5. For those of you pursuing Sogyal Rinpoche – what is your intent? Do you hope to see him step down, thrown behind bars, what? What is your goal? If your goal is to help women, I see loads of things in your behavior that doesn’t jive with this, though I realize you could just be frustrated and therefore being careless.

    Sorry so long.

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  406. ANON, who has denied anybody anything?

    I feel sometimes that questioning repeated message by Mary Finnigan – which is so many times repeated that it almost seem true to many – is forbidden. I just have another view on free thought than you. Why THAT would be forbidden? Do we live in a totalitarian culture where the journalist has a say – and no-one else?

    I’ve been in Rigpa for a decade and seen a lot. Why I wouldn’t be able to share my knowledge?

    Why somebody like Mary Finnigan who obviously haven’t BEEN there since the 70’s should be allowed to tell invented stories that have no basis in reality?

    Her comment in the TV program (in you tube) didn’t say anything informative except her own view in a demeaning tone: “flagrantly promiscuous…”

    Now Anon-la seems to know (?) that Barlow lied in the video. I’m really anxious to know how she knows that and what is the true story.

    Maybe Anon-la’s comment made me look at Barlow on the video more carefully – and true: she looks like a naive big child telling a story. I don’t see ANY emotion in her when she talks about HER so-called experience. Feels UNREAL.

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  407. If your considering responding to any of these posts, you are free to do so but you are definitely off task. The debate over whether it is true or not that Sogyal has been abusing disciples is being stifled by his followers, claiming all who suggest such things are pathological liars.IS THERE ANY POINT IN ENGAGING WITH THOSE WHO DENY OTHERS THEIR FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND THOUGHT? Dont think so!

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  408. So, Cult Education Forum, MF’s link to Marianne’s article.

    http://www.marianne2.fr/Le-lama-Rinpoche-a-Paris-pas-si-zen-ces-bouddhistes_a211593.html

    I also thought the article was written in a stupid way.

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  409. p.s-Freud said that.

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  410. Bella, all thoughts revolve around the beloved ego.

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  411. Anon-la, I would also like to hear about Victoria Barlow.

    “I agree I haven’t said why Victoria is lying and I will.”

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  412. Anon-la, since you seem pretty wise and rational person, I would really like to hear what complaints you have of me. People here have told me many times that I am sent by Rigpa. Your comment clearly shows that is NOT the case. If Rigpa wanted a representation here, the person would behave differently. I’m just myself, in good and bad.

    I’m not here to do favors to anyone. The first time I read these stories, I became very angry about Mary Finningan’s posts, which were slanderous and filled with lies. I wrote a really heated response. I didn’t think – at the time – that I would still read this page after 1-2 years. Mary Finnigan didn’t stop the slanderous talk and I decided to keep an eye on her and comment any time I see a comment which I know to be a lie. I also feel the need to give an alternative view for SR’s behavior in cases where he is critisized (not the sexual things, since I’ve never been part of scenes like that, just like 99,9% of the commentators here haven’t).

    But I would like to know how to improve. Even though I will never be a representative of SR I might benefit myself and world around me by paying attention to my faults. Many here just consider me a plant or pain in the — The pain in the — characteristics I have inherited from my father who was known in his work place for ‘nasty comments’ that were mostly meant as jokes. I have grown up in an environment where me, my father and brother tell each other directly and laughingly what we think and see in each other. We also love each other and are very close. My mother doesn’t understand the jokes and gets offended often.

    I must say I’m not often joking here, but I notice myself throwing in comments at times which I don’t agree 100%. Like the comments about karma. I don’t like Buddhists saying to each other: “it’s your karma”. Then I said it to sankappa myself, I guess I see some irony in my comment, but nobody else of course wouldn’t. Sometimes I am quite nasty when I critisize other groups, but they critisize Rigpa big time outside this page – and I think they themselves could look into the mirror. Many groups or Buddhists may lack self-criticism and ability laugh at themselves. We just concentrate on criticizing the others.

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  413. Anyone notice the playing of the race card above-‘Xenophobic witch hunt’? Yes, thats right-I dont give a flying f** if people in general abuse vulnerable women. But if people of Tibetan origin do it. woe be upon them. You got me

    Wake up

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  414. DI please can you remove my email ad from here?

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  415. Sankhappa, thanks for articulating something I too experienced. Great post, as in the build-up and circus around Sogyal Rinpoche. I recall going to a teaching many years ago, and then we had one of the facilitators unpack it for us…not that there was anything to unpack, but she said things like “his teachings are like Catherine Wheels, his mind is like a laser”. Lots of building him up, and then the endless videos of him teaching and then he’d come in and watch the video of him teaching and stop it and add a bit…and then later, another facilitator pointing out how great he was. Stick around and watch people raise their eyes to heaven, “WOW”, far out, and so on. Blissed out. It became commonplace to adopt that look, those vocalisations…just to fit in. I too, thought ‘wow’ ‘wow’ wow….until the scales fell from my eyes. Case of the Emperors Got No Clothes…

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  416. Anon-la, enlighten me!

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  417. NO wish to waste this life-so much self serving nonsense written here-so much bullshit-back to the cushion

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  418. Bella,

    I am sure you mean well, but even I want to argue with some of the things you say. No offense, but I can’t see how you are doing Sogyal RInpoche any favors.

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  419. ANON, great! SR has told many times to RELY on the teachings, not the teacher.

    “not to fall in with one who saw the financial opportunities that offering secret teachings to beginners without obliging them to practice the proper foundations bring.”

    You think SR’s motivation is to see financial opportunities? Why didn’t he write many more books? They sell.

    It was a private person from US who him/herself considered it VERY IMPORTANT for the future of Dharma to finance the Lerab Ling temple.

    Do you think any one highly intelligent lama like SR would not think about karma and rebirths? He may or may not remember his incarnations (I didn’t hear him speaking about the subject) but I bet his vision is NOT limited to his own present life, but to preservation of the wisdom of Tibetan Buddhism. It is said that he can achieve a LOT in this life and it is true (and could be a cause of envy). He is able to teach to thousands and establish centers (and the temple) that will continue after his life has ended.

    SR’s style is to teach lightly Dzogchen even in between ordinary teachings. One just has to know what Dzogchen is all about to see that.

    If you want to critisize groups that give PHAT teachings for beginners and COMPLETELY ignore Ngöndro, you can point your finger to non-Tibetan teachers. I wonder who is your teacher? I think ALL the teachers who are considered Dzogchen on whatever area give the view of Dzogchen even on very early stage. (Maybe Mahamudra in Kagye is different, more strict, but Nyigma and other traditions, like Bön, have the Dzogchen flavour since the beginning, depending on the lama).

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  420. Anon,
    I am celebrating that you have found a great Teacher. Please show him or her some of your recent posts. I am curious what he or she thinks.

    I agree I haven’t said why Victoria is lying and I will. The rest I have stated reasons, using logic, which so far has been met with the kind of derision you claim to oppose. But none of it has been refuted.

    Mary didn’t know, then she did, then she did it on camera. She said NN wasn’t Sogyal Rinpoche’s friend vehemently for years, oooops not true. DI is willing to publish unsubstantiated rumors as fact (e.g. at the risk of sounding like a broken record the millions that were paid). I am not merely slagging people off, I am offering another view based on things we can all reason out for ourselves. Argue the facts not the person. Explain away why Mingyur Rinpoche, who even Mary says is great, would tell his students to study with SR. So show me where I am wrong in any of those points. Or you can just go forward hurling insults at me and accusing me of exactly what you are doing.

    BTW since you are such a dharma expert let’s see if you can find the obvious errors in representing buddhist teachings in the briefing document. Any decent scholar or and most experienced yogis could do it.

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  421. Well.well, well-Now all the witches are gathering around the cauldron-even bellab is back. With the same old stories too-blah, blah blah Dzogchen, Rinpoche. karma All those buzzwords that turn a decent religion into a cult, and a cult of personality at that. Throw in some vilification of critics of ones guru (after all, no one should be allowed an opinion which is different from yours and all uncomfortable truths are in fact lies), then slag off al critics, claiming critics are liars, charlatans and good for nothings-In fact, all the same criticisms Sogyals critics aim at him but which are now suddenly ok as long as its you thats saying these things against his critics-no double standards there then. I repeat DONT YOU HAVE CUSHIONS TO GO TO OR WOOD TO CHOP OR WATER TO CARRY-Ever thought of getting a life and practicing Dharma instead of wallowing in small minded political internet campaigns to discredit anyone who criticizes your saviour, the great guru in the sky? IMO Youre all very sick people who need a rest from the web and a lengthy period of time in retreat.PS Bella-Your right-its my karma that led me to a genuine lama who followed principles of Buddhism that have been practiced for thousands of years and not to fall in with one who saw the financial opportunities that offering secret teachings to beginners without obliging them to practice the proper foundations bring. Thank f*** for that!The state of mind of some of the posters here is an indication of the results of the new way.
    RELY ON THE TEACHERS WORDS, NOT THE TEACHER
    RELY ON THE MEANING OF HIS WORDS RATHER THAN THE PLEASANT SOUND OF HIS VOICE (Or his ‘wonderful sense of humor; or his ‘warmth and compassion0

    Get real, guru worshippers everywhere-You only facilitate abuse with your suspension of all critical thought-and then you try to convince others to suspend theirs? Drag them down with you eh?

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  422. Anon,
    Yes let’s hope Sogyal RInpoche is repeating accurately the teachings he received from his teachers. You say it like it is some kind of liability. My teacher used to always make a big point out of the fact that he was merely repeating what his teachers said to him.

    Anyway, what’s your evidence about how TBLD was written? Internet gossip?

    I didn’t say that Andrew Harvey didn’t write anything profound, I said it wasn’t AS profound. And if you disagree, prove it. Tell me where to look.

    I think it is really wonderful that there are all the highly realized beings here telling me to go practice.

    Thank you all very, very much.

    Just in case there are a few that are just angry.

    I have spent years in retreats and I try to do several hours of practice everyday. I try to live on very little money, less than 10,000 USD/Year. I have worked a lot in prisons and on death row, counseling inmates. I have helped in battered women’s shelters. Lately I have been going down to OWS and serving food to the people camping in Liberty Square. I try, imperfectly perhaps, to work as much as I can for others taking as little as possible. And I teach meditation, for which I receive no money. I have some very kind friends who give me a bed to sleep in.

    What I don’t like is this xenophobic witch hunt, which is conducted to slander an entire religion. I dont’ see very much evidence, just lots of pontificating. I am very suspicious of the white and powerful who pick on uppity men of color, in my experience that is usually where the corruption lies.

    I don’t know Sogyal RInpoche that well, and I am not defending him as much as speaking out against a process that is completely wrong.

    I watched the video. I know that Victoria Barlow is lying and it happened 30 years ago. I can’t trust Mary, she tells one or two small lies, you point them out and poof she is gone. I won’t bother speaking about stephen batchelor yet, but it is funny that they keep talking about how pure his first teacher is when he had such a big falling out with that geshe. They just say what sounds good on film. And while I agree the story from the young women is troubling, in light of the manipulative and disgusting attempt to tie SR to HHDL and the effect that will have on Tibetans suffering in Tibet and the fact that she is surrounded by people you can’t trust, I just can’t putmy faith in her either.

    Ok so if all this abuse stuff is true, why does DI need to keep insisting that SR paid millions? another day, no proof.

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  423. Sankappa,

    I didn’t say it was orchestrated by the PRC, I just merely pointed out that they stand where you stand. And getting back to my original point, by propagating these partial truths over and over again, you are supporting the team that uses that information to keep millions of tibetans iunder a brutally repressive machine. So on hand we have allegations of inappropriate consensual sex vs. proven brutal repression.

    So you brought up Mingyur Rinpoche. I merely pointed out that he doesn’t agree with you.It isn’t like he just doesn’t want to go on record as the article at the top of this thread tries to suggest. No one put a gun to his head and said for the good of how tibetan buddhism appears in the west, thou shalt tell your students to invite Sogyal Rinpoche and study with him. So we can glean two things from that, MR approves of both Sogyal Rinpoche’s qualifications to teach and his ability to express the Dharama. Or do you now think that Mingyur Rinpoche is corrupt too?

    Or are you like Mary, claiming to respect Tibetan lamas but showing through your actions that you will do anything and everything to undermine people’s faith in them? It’s ok if that’s what you want, sad, but ok. But at least have the guts to come out and say it.

    Lastly, since you think your understanding of buddhism is so fabulous that you can judge the understanding and experience of Tibetan Lamas and their ability to authentically communicate it, please kindly prove at least a modicum of understanding. Tell us where the briefing document got it wrong and twisted the teachings around. I found lots of stuff on the first read through.

    It’s usually the people who don’t know the teachings that are so quick to condemn the abilities of others, be frustrated when the teacher comes late (with that attitude you are lucky he showed up at all) and interpret teasing and teaching his students as vindictive behavior.

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  424. BellaB: phat!!

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  425. Anon: “I had to wait 25 years to receive the text you speak of from my teacher,and do many years of ngondro”

    Maybe it was YOUR karma to wait so long? No offence, but that can also play a part in receiving teachings.

    Sankappa: “Hitting the Essence in Three Words. The retreat I refer to was largely Dzochen. There certainly was a lot of build-up to these teachings, but I have to say it was pretty much an anti-climax. In my opinion SR is no Dzochen master as you claim.”

    What were YOU doing on a Dzogchen retreat if you are not even a dedicated Rigpa student? You are supposed to belong to the Dzogchen Mandala in order to be there. To be a member of Dzogchen Mandala you have to have a daily commitment to certain practices (after Ngöndro).

    What do you think Dzogchen is? Some weird text that one cannot possibly understand? Dzogchen is directly about the nature of mind – and it’s actually quite simple. Dzongsar Khyentse said long ago:

    http://www.trettin-tv.de/dzongsar1.mpg

    http://www.trettin-tv.de/dzongsar2.mpg

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  426. Blah blah blah, TBLD, blah blah blah Dzogchen, blah blah blah Rinpoche. How charming. Dharma groupies gossiping on internet chatrooms about teachings that were efficacious for thousands of years by keeping them secret (I had to wait 25 years to receive the text you speak of from my teacher,and do many years of ngondro) Groupies and sycophants do not a worthy opponent indebate make-no objectivity. Dont you people have homes to go to or kids to look after or CUSHIONS TO SIT ON???

    PS Patrick wrote down the TBLD from teachings SR purloined from others. So neither was the author. To make such teachings publicly available for the sake of profit is the gateway to the lower realms
    Its not for Jo Public or curious health professionals in the field of palliative care “It is entrusted with secrecy to heart disciples…..Do not let the instruction dissipate” So you,a nd Sogyal, SHUT THE F*** UP……and I say that with the blessings of the dakinis Im sure.

    Ive never seen so much BS talked in my life, apart from on NKT WSS sites

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  427. Hi Anon-la,
    Quote:

    “You on the other hand stand with the PRC propaganda machine at your back.”

    End quote.

    I’ve been having a good old laugh here at that one! But on the serious side of this issue, you believe this is all somehow orchestrated by the PRC. You can’t for a moment believe that it might just be a group of individuals who have no affiliation other than their first-hand experiences of SR and Rigpa, either witnessing abuse of others or have been directly abused by him. This is not a conspiracy against SR coming out of China, it is the manifestation and the result (karma) of Sogyal’s actions coming mostly from the West. Also the point needs to be made here; I find it disgraceful and disrespectful in the extreme that by denying that abuse has occurred, you are essentially denying other beings’ experience, their version of events and therefore the pain and suffering that has resulted from Sogyal’s abuse. Where is your compassion?! You are a Buddhist I am assuming. Maybe Anon-la you have lost sight of the importance of developing and then applying compassion on the path.

    So TBLD. If as you claim Sogyal’s contribution was significant (and this is a highly debatable point) all it really proves is that he made contribution to a very good book, and certainly does not prove that he is a person of good character, because it is pretty clear that he is not. It’s easy to espouse the teachings but another matter applying them. Also I’m not sure Andrew Harvey would agree with you that he has not written anything as profound since.

    Hitting the Essence in Three Words. The retreat I refer to was largely Dzochen. There certainly was a lot of build-up to these teachings, but I have to say it was pretty much an anti-climax. In my opinion SR is no Dzochen master as you claim. Furthermore, with hindsight (and having listened to some great teachers speak) I could only describe Sogyal as a light-weight. Upon reflection there were rarely periods of him speaking for more than a few minutes at a stretch (on-topic at least). Much of it was padded- out with long periods of off-topic, and what could only be described as gossip, and of course the berating and belittling of his entourage and others. I want to make it clear again, that it is complete rubbish that these are some kind of teaching; this is simply foul-tempered and vindictive behaviour. Also he was continually late showing up for teachings, keeping people waiting. All his questions were vetted in advance, there was no spontaneous questioning directly from the floor allowed. He was whisked in and whisked out by his entourage. There was no time spent outside of this mixing with his students, or sharing a meal with us, etc. All very stage-managed stuff. I’ve since found this to be pretty unusual behaviour for a teacher and it’s not hard to draw the conclusion from it that this was about Sogyal being shielded from anything unrehearsed. You may find this an acceptable standard of behaviour and teaching of the Dharma Anon-la, but I do not. Perhaps I have higher standards than you, but certainly not unrealistic ones, as I have found.

    Anon-la, we could go on to- and- thro, having exchanges on this forum, and ultimately I would not change your mind on the character of Sogyal Rinpoche. However, my real concern is not to win an argument here, but for the welfare of others who maybe considering Rigpa or beginning to question their involvement with them. So for others considering or involved with Rigpa, there is clearly mounting evidence not to go there. I’m mean, why would you risk something as important as your spiritual evolution to such a suspect person and organisation?? I’ve now pretty much said all I’ve wanted to say in regards to Sogyal and Rigpa and want to make this my last post here. As someone else said further back up thread, time can be better spent elsewhere in terms of the Dharma (on the cushion for one), and I do find this sapping of my energy and not very liberating for the mind, becoming attached to views and protecting your viewpoint. It just reifies the self.

    One thing does bear repeating though, and that was my comment in regards to sila or morality. You cannot progress on the path without purification of mind/body. That is you need to reform your thoughts and actions. My point here is, if your teacher’s morality is suspect, this is ultimately going to hinder your progress. As HHDL said, or words to the effect, “one who has fallen, cannot help another stand.”

    May all beings be well, may all beings be happy

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  428. I’m trying to think of a polite way to ask this, but how is it that Mr. Canada appeared here 16 minutes after mentioning the name? Is DI WSS?

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  429. “That book can only have come from someone who really has a deep understanding of the richness and subtlety of the dharma. And that is what happens when you are raised by Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro and studied with Dudjom RInpoche and Dilgo Khyentse.”

    Yes, agree strongly. This is an interpretation from direct transmission. I think you nailed it; one just doesn’t get this depth unless raised with it. In our society, for better or worse, the chances of this kind of upbringing are so close to nil. Of course even in Tibet this kind of upbringing is becoming rapidly rarer.

    We face the same, sad intellectual attrition here in the States among the many tribes; I worked for the Hocak (Hochunk) tribe for 5 years or so. The last of the elders–by that I mean the ones really raised as Hocak, with the language, with the thousand-year continuum of knowledge–are passing away. It’s just not replaceable.

    I feel both fortunate and sad to be living among the last of many great peoples on this earth, before it’s all lost. I know we’ll preserve something of it, but it just will not be (I fear) of anything close to the same depth. We will become cultures of breadth, not depth.

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  430. Hi Sankappa,
    First of all, I read the Marianne article in French, perhaps the translation is different? As I stated before, since the article engages in xenophobic and sophomoric put downs it is hard to take anything the reporter says anything but severely biased. As one poster remarked above, article actually makes fun of Sogyal Rinpoche for running out of jokes when someone in the audience admits to a terrible crime. That is actually quite bizarre. The French Buddhist friends, who sent me the article and hardly know Sogyal Rinpoche were incredibly offended by the tone and the xenophobia. Even Mary admitted above that the article is not a kind of journalism that she is completely fond of.

    As to your conjecture about the authorship of TBLD that is actually more of Mary’s spin.

    I met Patrick Gaffney and Andrew Harvey at various points in my life. Andrew has never written anything before or since as profound as the TBLD. Patrick is a very smart guy, but he has studied under Sogyal RInpoche so I think it iis reasonable to assume that the Dharma in that book comes from SR.

    If you ever get a chance in your life to receive the highest teachings in the Nyingma Dzogchen tradition you will come to love that book all the more. It is quite clever how Rinpoceh worked in the famous Patrul RInpoche text on the Tsik Sum Ne Dek. The bardo teachings are extraordinary, and it is true you can find it all in the Bardol Thodal but not written like that, it is more hidden. That book can only have come from someone who really has a deep understanding of the richness and subtlety of the dharma. And that is what happens when you are raised by Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro and studied with Dudjom RInpoche and Dilgo Khyentse.

    I one time sat with friends, a couple of famous translators and one very well known university professor late into the night marveling together about what is in the book and how it was presented. None of them is a student of Sogyal RInpoche. We all started to giggle when someone mentioned that on the net you hear rumors that Patrick and Andrew wrote the book. No one doubts that made significant contributions to the quality of the english, but no way did either of write the book. You have been spun.

    We have one point of strong agreement. Mingyur Rinpoche is a shining example and one of the great hopes for the future flourishing of the Dharma. I know him quite well. I assure you that he holds Sogyal RInpoche in the highest, highest regard. His students were left with instructions to try to receive teachings from Sogyal RInpoche and according to one of my friends over at Tergar (MRs group in the US) they have repeatedly asked Rinpoche to come to Minnesota and teach.

    Of course Mingyur Rinpoche is aware of the allegations against Sogyal RInpocge. Thanks to Mary, everyone has. SO I confess that I trust Mingyur Rinpoche much more than I trust you or Mary.

    BTW- If your understanding of Buddhism is so good, you should be able to easily spot the way the dharma has been twisted in the Briefing document.

    I realize it is hard for you to understand how someone with a brain can actually not believe all the “evidence”, unless of course the are part of the RIgpa machine. But I stand happily with Mingyur Rinpoche and many other of the best and brightest minds in the Buddhist community. You on the other hand stand with the PRC propaganda machine at your back. How many more monks and nuns have to light themselves on fire?

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  431. Hi Sheila, yes TBLD is a very good book and I have read it, but also formed the view that this was ultimately written by greater and more evolved minds than Sogyal Rinpoche’s. (There is quite a deal of information to support this along with my own observations). Importantly though, if you’ve been present first-hand at a Sogyal Rinpoche/Rigpa retreat, you’ll see it’s the Dharma according to Sogyal, and IMO that doesn’t accord with Dharma as I have come to know it. I’ve already outlined this in previous postings. However, I will repeat that if you can’t get past the attachment to worldly, material objects and sensual pleasures then your interpretation and expounding of the Dharma is gonna have a pretty hollow ring. This is Buddhism 101. This is what the Buddha first renounced, Sogyal has not. Perhaps you need to take a deeper and more serious look at the Buddha’s teachings?

    Also Sila (morality) is essential to the path and if you can’t progress in sila, you ultimately can’t progress at all. Sogyal’s morality is obviously suspect.

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  432. I disagree completely with the depiction of Sogyal Rinpoche’s interpretation as “dumbed-down” Buddhism. Ecumenism is not dumbing-down. Explaining things in a way that westerners can better grasp them is not dumbing-down.

    Sogyal Rinpoche is not a creator of Buddhist doctrine, just an interpreter. There may be good things and bad things about the way any teacher interprets the Buddhist canon, but they’re not “inventing” doctrine.

    I learned about tonglen and phowa from Sogyal Rinpoche’s book, and felt it was an excellent introduction. It’s really something to go to Great Liberation Through Hearing in the Intermediate State, and then go back to the Tibetan Book of Living & Dying and realize it’s the same information. I think it’s safe to say I wouldn’t have been able to appreciate Great Liberation Through Hearing if I hadn’t had a (as you call it) “dumbed-down” introduction.

    Culture clash is traumatic, and real. I believe one reason HHDL takes such great pains to de-dogmatize (or de-Tibetanize, de-Asianize, or whatever you want to call it) Dharma is so that we can see it stripped of the cultural trappings before we decided whether it’s for us or not.

    I know you’ll just think I’m some blind devotee; all I can say is, that’s not the case.

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  433. Anon-la, you CAN’T see the Marianne article as an accurate depiction of the situation, nor obviously the ever growing mountain of individual accounts of abuse of all kinds from ex-Rigpa students, because you are indoctrinated by the all-pervasive Rigpa spin machine. And I can point this out to you and many others til I’m blue in the face, and it’s doubtful it will ever change your mind(s). The only way this will happen is if YOU take that first backward step and get some perspective and wake-up, and I mean just in the mundane, worldly sense, because that’s all you really need so see through the sordid Rigpa charade – yes a modicum of common-sense will do the job here, and cut through that Rigpa-induced myopia.

    I’ve done this and moved on from Rigpa, and I came to my senses and got some perspective on Buddhist teaching and Buddhism in general. I can now look back on Rigpa and SR and see it for what it actually is: the McDonald’s drive-thru of Buddhism. The junk food of the Buddhist world. The dumbed-down-feel-good, non-renuoncaitive style of Dharma, founded and run by a charlatan and an abuser. Rigpa is just empire building for Sogyal Rinpoche and to feed that massive ego, and give him all the worldly trappings that come with this power – money, sex, status, praise from peers, etc, etc. The real irony here is this is exactly what the Buddha renounced when he left his privileged position and trappings. Yes, the difference between true practitioners of Dharma and Sogyal is stark. (Perhaps SR could take a leaf out of Mingyur Rinpoche’s book, eschewing some of the worldly trappings like great Tibetan masters of old – not much of that ethic these days in TB. It’s first class all the way).

    Between Sogyal Rinpoche and Rigpa and Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism, and there abusive and exploitative escapades, I predict some serious fallout soon for TB if it doesn’t get it’s house in order.

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  434. Anon-la, have you figured anything out as to the timing of latest slander surge? I’m assuming things are ramping up in general; everything surrounding HHDL seems to be ramping up sharply.

    I think it’s even possible that some people are caught up in the ramp-up without realizing it; where did the impetus come from to publish the Guardian article, for example? People can be lead in subtle ways without even realizing it.

    It’s all such a morass. We need a few modern Khampa on horseback to snag another jeepfull of documents in 2011, lol.

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  435. Hello Giulia,

    Maybe your description of him as businessman is more accurate–he’s patenting techniques for working with traditional medicinal plants.

    He was a Cantonese speaker, correct? His name is Cantonese (as one would expect). Also I remember you saying he was interested in medicines (the gray substance he had that wasn’t dutsi).

    I don’t know, it sure sounds like the same guy to me. On your trip, was he also inquiring about local medicines, for example?

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  436. It’s Paul in the apparently incriminating (because stolen) series of pictures in the FB Photo Album “China” (FB “Jelly Dorje”). This Paul is not a scholar nor a researcher nor someone with a degree. Everybody is looking for Paul But, including the Dutch Embassy…

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  437. Sheila,

    If you watch Mary’s pattern, she typically says a few outrageous things, then if she is challenged throws a few insults, then if logical inconsistencies or the fact that was less than honest is pointed out she will either throw even more insults or just say that she refuses to participate. Don’t take it personally.

    On the other hand having now reviewed her posts here and on the old alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan newsgroup, two days ago was the first time she did not vehemently deny that Sogyal Rinpoche and Namkha Norbu are close friends. That is something,

    I ran into Norbu’s son a few years ago just after he went to Lerab Ling to bring Sogyal RInpoche gifts and a letter from his father, I suppose Mary’s investigative journalistic skills are ale to log that one.

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  438. I have a question for anyone here with an opinion on this – do you feel the Dorje Shugden issue factors into any of this? I realize that’s a nebulous question, but…

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  439. Mary, I wish you’d extend me the courtesy (I feel) I’ve extended you. I’m not a Sogyal “follower.” I do have, and have benefitted from his book. Whether he wrote it, or it was edited from teachings, or it was ghost-written, I don’t know and I don’t claim to know.

    You’re free to call me a liar, but that doesn’t make me one. Sucks, though. I guess you are jaded from your work, and I’m jaded from mine; we both bring bias to the discussion.

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  440. Hi Anon,
    For some reason I was under the impression that you decried ad hominem attacks. In all those article you list none of them say that Sogyal RInpoche paid millions ot settle the lawsuit.

    The fact there was a lawsuit and it was settled is not under dispute.

    I guess being a bully and acting rude is completely acceptable when you do it.

    I hope that instead of hurling invectives you would take a chance on reasoned conversation, but I can see that is not very likely.

    In fact, as I pointed out Rigpa is most likely unable to challenge the accusation that millions were paid because they would be violating a legal agreement that they signed. This is something that the perpetrators of the rumour are banking on.Something that you ought to be against whether or not Sogyal RInpoche did something bad.

    Someone did challenge it in another thread several years ago. And Neither DI nor anyone else has proven that Sogyal RInpoche did pay anything.

    So lots of insults and bullying, but no proof. Isn’t integrity something that all parties should be asked to uphold?

    DI the ball is in your court. You can put an end to the speculation or you can retract the statement.

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  441. Oh come on with this “we can all observe that DI is still silent as to what proof there is that Sogyal Rinpoche paid millions…” Read the briefing document, read the SF Free Press, the Telegraph, The Guardian, The Sunday Times articles,watch the documentary. All of these make reference to this and none have been challenged by Rigpa. Why? Why, if it is so important to preserve Sogyals good name, has nobody challenged these public documents and their publishers? WATCH MY LIPS B…E..C..A..U..S..E…T..H…E..Y…A…R…T..R..U..E. Geddit?
    Wake up, the evidence is their for all to see, and if you cant see it, its because your head is buried deep in the sand. DI are not ‘still silent’; they obviously see absolutely no point in repeating the same information again and again when it is obvious that those who ask the questions have already made up their minds as to the answer they want and refuse point blank to listen to any response which contradicts their view

    As for
    ’Im tired of seeing good people run down. I’m tired of seeing Tibetans targeted. If any person is guilty of an accusation, then the standards of prosecuting that person must be raised; anything less ensures that future victims will never be believed. As a woman with daughters, and who treasures the good men in her life, I care deeply about all sides of this issue.
    THIS IS BULLSHIT. You are a Sogyal apologist, claiming neutrality. The evidence is there in the public domain and, for most of us, damning to the extreme. So what to do? Why, claim its inadequate of course. Then throw in a ‘I feel sorry for the victims too’ to make yourself appear neutral. Thoroughly disingenuous, devious bullshit if ever I smelt it. Admit it, youre a Sogyal follower intent on subduing any negative publicity because you are ‘on the side of the good’.

    Actually, your conduct is standard Rigpa politbureau: Subdue all critical information. Do not allow any sordid details of Sogyals activities to appear on the internet without making a concerted attempt to undermine their credibility. DO NOT ALLOW FREEDOM OF INFORMATION, THOUGHT OR SPEECH………for the benefit of all beings. So devious, so naive and so obviously taken in by the popstar hysteria surrounding this abuser of women, masquerading as a wise one.

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  442. Sankappa,
    I haven’t read the Rick Ross translation of the article but someone sent me the original which my french is barely good enough to read.

    The xenophobic stuff is the parts where the author is derisive of things that any Buddhist center would be guilty of and the tone is extremely shrill and sarcastic.

    I find it so offputting and insulting that I can’t believe any of the observations of Sogyal RInpoche’s style.

    Tibetan teachers are really vicious teases and I can see how some people won’t like that, especially because it is so challenging to one’s own ego.

    In fact, buddhism is filled with stories about teachers behaving in unconventional ways in order to help their students.

    One of the most famous is about tehh Zen master who slept all day while his student sawed wood. Even though his student was quite angry for a while thinking that the master was just taking advantage of him. Eventually all that wood sawing exhausted him physically and, more importantly mentally and he achieved real insight.

    I don’t know anyone who made real progress in the dharma who didn’t get into an unusually provacative place with there teacher. Of course this means that the student teacher relationship can be quite dangerous if the teacher is thinking of worldly aims.

    In the case of Sogyal RInpoche, I have witnessed him brutally tease some of his students. I always envied the fact that he had such trust in them and they in him. I never saw it as a self centered act of Rinpoche. I saw it as a typical behavior of a Buddhist master. I also accept that my experience of how Sogyal Rinpoche is with his students is somewhat limited.

    I wonder if you never encountered a lot of the spin you see on this website if you would have left Rigpa and Rinpoche. Perhaps your view was colored by what you read on the net? In any case to enter into a relationship with a Buddhist master means that you are entering into a world where your conceptual mind and your ego will be severely challenged, even your concepts about the Teacher. That is why the motivation and training of the teacher is so crucially important.

    p.s. we can all observe that DI is still silent as to what proof there is that Sogyal Rinpoche paid millions….

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  443. By the way, what do you mean that by discussing this issue, we will “bring misfortune” on ourselves?

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  444. A Rich Solemn Man,

    Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world. People hurt other people in all kinds of ways. When someone accuses another of harm, this has to be investigated, even if it takes time away from other things; if we don’t investigate, we risk that other people will be harmed. If the accusation is false, we risk the falsely-accused person being harmed. In either case, not only the people involved may be harmed, but others down the road.

    As Dharma practitioners we can never be “free” of the world we live in, and I think if we’re honest with ourselves, we know that Dharma doesn’t tell us to try and be free of it, but to work with it as it is.

    It is never a shame to try and alleviate hurt; isn’t that in fact what we should do, if we can?

    I’m tired of seeing good people run down. I’m tired of seeing Tibetans targeted. If any person is guilty of an accusation, then the standards of prosecuting that person must be raised; anything less ensures that future victims will never be believed. As a woman with daughters, and who treasures the good men in her life, I care deeply about all sides of this issue.

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  445. All of you children bring shame on the Dharma and misfortune on yourselves with the petty bickering you engage in ‘in the name of truth’ Take a breather and focus on practice instead of politics and all will feel a lot better I know, from personal experience,

    A Rich Solemn Man

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  446. Giulia, may I ask what your association with Thomas David Canada is?

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  447. I should have added that I do not use the word “cult” pejoratively; Adventism is a very gentle cult in many ways, but a cult nonetheless (by most people’s accepted definition).

    I’ve never been sure whether labels matter that much, though; it’s probably more helpful to say, “Adventists are kind people, but will pressure you very, very heavily.”

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  448. I don’t know if humor is appropriate at this point, but I find it personally hilarious that the folks on rickross are offended at my definition of Seventh Day Adventism as a cult. Adventism fits every possible definition of cult (it does not use coercive sex or violence; however, neither of these have to be present in an organization for it to be defined as a cult).

    That reaction on their part made me wonder what their agenda is. They’re calling everything under the sun a cult, lol, but they won’t take the word of a fourth-generation Adventist who admits her former religion was a cult.

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  449. “Here’s something from the briefing document:

    “It should be borne in mind that the fact that millions of dollars were paid to one accuser to silence them is no indication of moral purity or a lack of culpability on the part of Sogyal nor does it absolve him of the crime he allegedly committed;”

    Ok so where is the proof that any thing was paid? Dialogue Ireland if you have any integrity at all you will respond.”

    They don’t have integrity. Anything goes to put Buddhism or any other religion down. They have never even seen SR. One of them is a former cult member from a Christian group, so he probably is afraid of anything resembling a ‘cult’ or non-Christian religion. It’s quite typical of some Christians not to have a clue about Buddhism – and not even wanting to know -> demons and all the scary childhood monsters prevent any intellectual approach. The other one knows Hubbard and his ‘students’ well. I don’t understand why in the Universe he chose Hubbard as a subject of interest? I have always wanted to keep away from mad people. Then he thinks anybody supporting Rigpa is equal to Hubbard disciple, who has given up their homes and property in order to join a class in Hubbard’s group. There’s intellectual dishonesty or unwillingness to really know.

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  450. Giulia – your Paul But was Chinese, correct?

    This must be the same man – a Chinese guy from HK specializing in Chinese and Tibetan medicinal plants; plus Paul But is a pretty rare name.

    My guess is he is quite alive, and well-employed on top of it!

    (Is that Paul in the “Jelly” pictures? We could compare those to his current Bionovo picture if I can find it.)

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  451. It’s a paranoid world. I suspect Mary of working for the Chinese; Mary suspects me of working for Rigpa, we all suspect each other of being heroin addicts.

    I guess my reason for being here can be summed up thus: for over three years I have watched the Chinese (mainland) system working to systematically destroy the Tibetan community. One by one they line up Tibetan targets in their sights for character assassination.

    Secondly, when my family suffered through my Dad’s false accusation incident in the ’80s, I’m sure that affected, permanently, how I approach such things. I just don’t take accusations of anything for granted anymore. I don’t disbelieve them, and I don’t believe them.

    I’m sorry that my reality colors what may be, for you, Mary, an unrelated campaign. I am not a “pro-Sogyal” person. I am a pro-truth person.

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  452. In anycase it doesn’t reallly matter what people believe. We simply must apply logic and reasoning if we are to get to the truth.

    First of all in the US it is quite common that when a case is settled, it comes with the proviso that neither side is legally able to speak about it. That means that Rigpa or RInpoche can’t say anything at all except that the case was settled. Which the people who started the rumor that the case was settled for millions almost certainly realize. Legally, if the case was settled in the usual way, Rigpa can not confirm or deny the rumor. Insidious, but clever.

    In fact it is possible that the case was settled by Janice Doe having to pay. That would occur if when the two parties entered the discovery process the case was seen to be so weak that a defamation counter suit was likely. We just don’t know.

    As someone posted before, for some one to say that they know the case was settled for millions means that either:

    They are making it up
    or
    Their are in violation of a legally binding document which is unethical and criminal.

    If the second point is the case, then you can’t really believe what an unethical person says, can you?

    Ok, so dialogue Ireland has had several years to prove that poster wrong. Let’s see the proof.

    Or are you so clouded by the spin doctors that you think by any means necessary, even lying?

    Here’s something from the briefing document:

    “It should be borne in mind that the fact that millions of dollars were paid to one accuser to silence them is no indication of moral purity or a lack of culpability on the part of Sogyal nor does it absolve him of the crime he allegedly committed;”

    Ok so where is the proof that any thing was paid? Dialogue Ireland if you have any integrity at all you will respond.

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  453. Sorry I hit the wrong button. I am writing some more…

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  454. Dear Anon,

    There are so many things logically inconsistent in what you said that it is hard to know where to begin.

    I am pretty well connected in the Buddhist world. If I told you my name you quite possibly have heard of me but certainly you could easily find people that do know me. You would also discover that I am not a Rigpa drone as Mary often likes to playfully describe people she doesn’t agree with. Is that an example of an one of those latin word styles attacks you seem to only care about when they are pointed in a direction you don’t like?

    The reason I mention my connection to Buddhism is that I have never heard an ethnic Tibetan Teacher say they believe that Sogyal Rinpoche did something wrong or paid lots of money to settle the suit. There are one or two ethnically Caucasian teachers who have said that they believe the suit was settled for money as far as I know.

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  455. Sankappa,

    “Anonymous, you miss the point. SR’s petulant and bullying behaviour is used to manipulate and control through fear. There is no great and profound teaching behind these methods as claimed by the enablers, apologists and the just plain misguided within the organisation. Teachers that have developed real wisdom and security have no need for these tactics. This is simply just appalling behaviour and is not Dharma.”

    Why a friend of mine who is a close student of SR has NEVER been afraid of him?

    You can have your view on ‘real dharma’.

    SR has shown me the nature of my mind, so I believe he knows what the Dharma is all about. I consider it a great gift from him.

    Ego is afraid, isn’t it great that you can really see how afraid it is about disappearing? No one tells you the lullaby story and puts you to sleep with feel good dharma.

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  456. ANON:

    Pointless is to discuss, when you don’t understand what I asked and answer these questions.

    “EVERYBODY KNOWS ABOUT SOGYALS SEXUAL ANTICS”

    Yes: everybody knows about the lawsuit since it has been there for over a decade. What about the details and what happened in reality? NOBODY knows, excepth the Janice Doe – and Mary Finnigan who claims to know except doesn’t tell, just hints.

    “‘HOW do YOU know?’ How do you know I dont know? Circular and
    pointless”

    Yes: how the H*** do you say you know SR and NN are not friends? It’s circular and pointless to say such things without showing or telling HOW you happen to know. Are you yourself friends with NN or SR that you would know what kind of relationship they have? Any lama visiting Rigpa in Lerab Ling will spend also personal time in the form of dinners and talking with SR, when they are not teaching in public.

    ‘You demand proof,’ Where was this demand? Which post?

    You don’t want personal attacks but discussion with proof. That is also wellcome to me. I would like to discuss about people’s real experiences, not their fears or stories read in the internet.

    “Namkhai Norbu visited Rigpa earlier this autumn himself”. Chamberlain visits Germany-He is therefore a Nazi according to your logic

    So, Germany equals Lerab Ling. Lerab Ling is a small area compared to Germany. Lerab Ling was established by SR, Germany is NOT established by Hitler, who happens to be dead. Your own logic doesn’t work.

    If Namkhai Norbu visits Rigpa in Lerab Ling while SR is ‘at home’ he visits SR’s home. SR happens to have his home and permanent residence in Lerab Ling. SR is the leader and the founder of Lerab Ling.

    “ALLOW FOLKS THE FREEDOM TO MAKE UP THEIR OWN MINDS BASED ON ALL ASPECTS OF THE STORY, NOT JUST THE OFFICIAL RIGPA VERSION”

    I do allow. And I have also my own version, which is not official created by anyone else, not even by MF.

    I don’t feel lost. But I agree that many follow ‘ghosts’ of the internet: therefore it’s better to see for oneself.

    Could you please TELL your personal story and experience in Rigpa? What made you believe in your own real experience that the accusations are true? (I mean the sexual accusations… SR’s temper is another matter).

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  457. Sheila, I had hopes of having found Paul But at Bionovo, as you suggested, but that is definitely a different Paul But, as the one I know definitely does not hold a Ph.D., not has published any articles, nor is a researcher nor scholar. People who used to know him haven’t heard from him in years. When I met him again at Sherab Ling in Himachal Pradesh, he told me his camera was “lost” there and a monk came to quickly lead me away from him. I am currently trying to track him down, but maybe also he has been killed…

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  458. Anonymous, you miss the point. SR’s petulant and bullying behaviour is used to manipulate and control through fear. There is no great and profound teaching behind these methods as claimed by the enablers, apologists and the just plain misguided within the organisation. Teachers that have developed real wisdom and security have no need for these tactics. This is simply just appalling behaviour and is not Dharma.

    I would also like to repeat that the Marianne article IMO was not xenophobic, sensationalist and shoddy journalism, as claimed by others in this thread, but an accurate depiction of a Rigpa retreat. I urge others, particularly those contemplating SR and Rigpa as their spiritual path to read it, and do as much research as possible (there are plenty of resources and sound advice on the net) and they may well save themselves, valuable time, potential pain and quite an amount of money.

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  459. ha ha, I meant for the closed bracket to be after heroine not pedant. That’ll learn me :)

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  460. Sorry, Anon or anonymous (or whoever it was who wrote about heroine to be a pedant) but it is heroin, not heroine. Heroin is a drug, heroine is a female hero:
    ‘criminal cases involving heroine addicts’
    (any chance of giving yourself names, anonymouses? For the sake of clarity)

    Sorry, Guilia, I didn’t read all your posts, and therefore missed that you were poisoned and nearly died.

    I had a look at Rick Ross, that Corboy doesn’t half go on and on and on.

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  461. More answers leads to more questions. Your position is clear. no matter what you are told, you will not believe it if it does not concur with your own opinion. Communication in such a context is circular and pointless.

    “I’ve never seen one article or talk by Buddhist lamas,” then clearly you have never had regular personal access on a one to one basis to any of the lamas of the traditions-I have, for decades, and can assure you EVERYBODY KNOWS ABOUT SOGYALS SEXUAL ANTICS

    ‘HOW do YOU know?’ How do you know I dont know? Circular and pointless

    ‘You demand proof,’ Where was this demand? Which post?

    “yet you throw things in the discussion that you don’t know anything about!” How do you know I dont know? Circular and pointless

    “Namkhai Norbu visited Rigpa earlier this autumn himself”. Chamberlain visits Germany-He is therefore a Nazi according to your logic

    “At least he doesn’t support Mary Finnigan but the other party.”

    Er. MF is a student of NN, as well as other teachers. As already stated, visiting Rigpa doesnt make one a follower or supporter of Sogyal, any more than visiting a zoo makes one a monkey.

    Read the post again

    ALLOW FOLKS THE FREEDOM TO MAKE UP THEIR OWN MINDS BASED ON ALL ASPECTS OF THE STORY, NOT JUST THE OFFICIAL RIGPA VERSION

    REFRAIN FROM AD HOMINEM ATTACKS

    BE SENSIBLE AND RESPECTFUL

    I do not have time to waste in petty bickering with the proven intransigent. Dont you have a cushion to go to? Is this your chosen path? Or do you think practice might be a better alternative (rhetorical question-no answer required)

    BYE and may you be happy and BEWARE – Internet chatgroups are generally viper pits full of lost souls

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  462. ANON: “Wake up, there is no friendship between NN and SR”

    HOW do YOU know?

    You demand proof, yet you throw things in the discussion that you don’t know anything about!

    Namkhai Norbu visited Rigpa earlier this autumn himself. At least he doesn’t support Mary Finnigan but the other party.

    And you said earlier that you saw or experienced things in Rigpa that made you believe the slanderous talk. What were your experiences in regard to accusations about the sexual exploitation? Your own experience is the only valid thing here, everything else is just talk. Please open up.

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  463. ANON, In fact, many of those on the ‘inside’ of Tibetan Buddhism but on the ‘outside’ of Rigpa know this to be fact-it has been common knowledge for years and has been referred to by a number of lamas in interviews IMO”

    I’ve never seen one article or talk by Buddhist lamas, except from the Western Buddhist group who are friends of Mary and who have their own problems with authenticity. Could you put a link here?

    This is the only article I’ve read by Dzongsar Khyentse, but it doesn’t directly talk about SR, but talks about scandals in the West:
    http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j31/dzongsar.asp

    Settled…- NOTHING in the world has to be. The person who was the claimed victim could have refused to settle.

    “1) One common tactic that supporters of controversial figures in the Buddhist world and indeed other leaders such as Hubbard, use as a defence of their teacher is the ad hominem attack on critics, criticisng the person rather than their arguments, to distract from the actual issue at hand.”

    Ad hominem tactics…. Mary Finnigan has repeatedly used brutal language about SR, talked slander without proof, talked about Rigpa students as Rigpa plants…

    She sows what she seeds.

    Hubbard asks a LOT of money (their sold houses etc….) from people and deprives their personality. In Buddhism that is NOT the scene. Don’t mix lunatic things with Buddhism. Or don’t you just want to bother finding out? Are you a DI-person?

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  464. sankappa, you must not like every Tibetan or Buddhist lama. It’s a personal choice. I would loose my nerve with some soft spoken ‘humble’ lama, who might or might not have a double face behind the scenes. With SR it’s pretty easy to see what you get – a rough ride with lots of humour and freedom.

    Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche is famous for being a scary lama in the Tibetan tradition in India. He is well known for his tactics and methods among the Tibetans… still many Tibetan monks and Westerners want to be his students – even if he doesn’t want any Western disciples, for a reason.

    You can make a personal decision about your teacher and let others make their own decision.

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  465. “actually you sometimes don’t tell the truth. For example, there are places on this site, where a poster made the point that Sogyal RInpoche and Namkhai Norbu were close friends. You flatly denied this possibility. I also, with a bit of digging, found a similar claim from net news groups years ago again you said it wasn’t so. Now we can see that Namkhai Norbu invited Sogyal RInpoche to Merrigar and then Norbu came to Lerab Ling.”

    Remember Mr Chamberlains smiling face and handshakes with the German chancellor Mr Hitler? Remember Tony Blair embracing Muamar Gadafii after the Lockerbie disaster?

    So why the cosy invites?Think ‘image’ think ‘disciples’ think ‘benefiting as many beings as possible’, think ‘spreading the dharma’, think $$$$$$.

    Wake up, there is no friendship between NN and SR, only a fairly convincing display of the charming public face of Buddhism-its the same face on the body that privately carries a knife. Do Lamas have ‘friends’ ? Of course not, friends ,enemies strangers-these mean nothing to those with any understanding of the path, even beginners.

    As for the attempts to link SR and the DL: These are attempts to draw publicity to this relationship so as to discourage the DL from being linked to SR-If the DL drops SR becuase of his conduct, it will seriously damage SRs reputation. These arent attacks on the DL; they are effort s to draw his attention to the fact that the abuses young tibetan women endured in Tibet will not be endured here in the West. Sorry, the DL is a great man but he clearly still has something to learn about Westerners (shock horror-follower of DL finds it completely OK to accept that the possibility that the DL may have faults AAAAAAAAAAAARGGGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!

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  466. “Ok Dialogue Ireland how about explaining why you are unwilling to retract the Sogyal Rinpoche spent millions to settle the lawsuit BS”

    This issue was well reported in The Guardian, 10th January 1995, p. 19 and Lattin, Don. “Best-selling Buddhist author accused of sexual abuse.” The San Francisco Free Press, 10 November 1994.

    In fact, many of those on the ‘inside’ of Tibetan Buddhism but on the ‘outside’ of Rigpa know this to be fact-it has been common knowledge for years and has been referred to by a number of lamas in interviews IMO-If you want to find out more why not ask the people at Rigpa-How do they claim the case was settled-because it clearly had to be???

    There are several other issues arising here. Lets just get them straight.

    1) One common tactic that supporters of controversial figures in the Buddhist world and indeed other leaders such as Hubbard, use as a defence of their teacher is the ad hominem attack on critics, criticisng the person rather than their arguments, to distract from the actual issue at hand.

    What is that issue? The issue appears to be that a growing number of Sogyal’s former devotees claim he has used his position to coerce them into engaging in the sexual act. Such claims are manifold and long standing and are supported by documentary evidence in various media manifestations and across the web.

    It is up to the individual to decide whether these allegations are true or not.In my own case,such abuse has occured in relation to individuals I have introduced to Rigpa (much to my regret) and I have encountered others who have experienced the same. This, plus the increasingly widespread coverage of this behaviour across the media lead me to my own conclusion that the allegations are true and that Sogyal’s chickens are simply ‘coming home to roost’ (What goes round comes round, karma, etc etc)

    This is my opinion. I am free to hold it, particularly because I have had the chance to investigate, based on personal experience and to consider the issue. Others, among them those who have the cataract of blind faith in some kind of theistic external saviour (IMO) obscuring their vision. Are of the opposite opinion. They are equally free to hold their opinion.

    The point of DIs document seems to be to inform those of neither camp of ‘the other side of the story’ In a democratic society, (which may or may not amount to ‘civilisation’), such information should, I think all would agree, be freely available to all concerned. If all the cards are on the table free, individuals are free to make up their own mind; otherwise, they are not.

    The purpose of a number of the ‘pro Sogyal’ posts on this page of recent seem to be for the purpose of undermining the potential veracity by either ridiculing them (without any counter evidence) or ridiculing their author(s). These posts are, hopefully unintentionally, do nothing to aid freedom of thought. Rather they, restrict the freedom of information and thought of the individual.

    Both camps would do well to remember this. Debate if you will, but try to refrain from ridiculing others and consider evidence, not opinions.

    In what some will perceive as a contradiction to all that I have just said, I would advise all concerned to consider the messages between the lines of certain recent posters. A number of references in one person posts lead me to believe that he/she may be suffering from severe psychological imbalance or, worse, may be of an opposition to that which eh’she purports to hold. His/her comments therefore may not be reliable.

    In a court of law, criminal cases involving heroine addicts, for example, often collapse because all evidence is looked upon as potentially dishonest-A friend of mine was murdered some years ago but the perpetrator got away scot free because all the individuals involved in the case were addicts. The lawyers successfully argued that the evidence was therefore suspect and the case was thrown out of court.

    Again, it would not be the first time that someone, posing as critic, peppered their posts with subtle references that cause the reader to doubt their credibility (for example, ‘I recently received some news IN A DREAM). Thus, what seems to be a witness for the prosecution subtly transforms into a witness for the defence. It might even be the case that such an individual is actually posting disingenuously, so as to appear to be something they are not and undermine their true opponents position. I would therefore advise posters to consider whether it is appropriate to give oxygen to such posters by responding to their comments.

    Finally, it strikes me that most of the people here are either Buddhist, ex Buddhists or simply interested in moral propriety. If this is the case, I see no justification for the sniping and personal attacks which are becoming increasingly rife here. This does nothing to advance the debate and indeed causes its stagnation. It might even be the intention of certain posters to instil such stagnation into the debate so as to detract from the real issue. Therefore, could I ask that all concerned attempt to demonstrate something resembling a reasonable, moral, and respectful tone in their discussions. Otherwise this important debate becomes simply another manifestation of the mud slinging between those for and against Sogyal. This, after all, is a serious and important debate about issues affecting the future well being of a number of individuals. Sadly (and perhaps intentionallly) it sometimes has the appearance of a football hooligans on-line blog

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  467. I would like to challenge the assertion that the Marianne article on Rigpa and SR was somehow xenophobic, is complete rubbish. I attended a 10-day Rigpa retreat last year and the depiction of his behaviour and the general atmosphere is absolutely spot-on. It was in fact the same petulance, bullying and lack of anything resembling humility from “the guru”, the reason I left Rigpa. The fact that this spoiled brat-like behaviour, was then passed-off and excused as being a teaching for us and the person(s) being humiliated, are farcical, a con and an insult to most people ‘s intelligence. I could go on, but I would be only rehashing what many others on this and other forums have already said in regards to SR’s behaviour. The article has been translated and can be read on the Rick Ross Cult Education Forum.

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  468. Jancie,

    It was later proven that he gave me an very toxic potion that would for sure have killed me would I have drunk it all — you simply must read carefully before writing insulting posts!

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  469. Mary Finnigan with her dossier. I know many documentarists and I bet MF knows too, but the dossier cannot be made available to the audience? Just remove the names.

    I find it strange. After 30-40 years. We have had TV before SR arrived to the West.

    I think journalistic life style can be extremely sleezy with all the lies… and washing the lies away with drinks? Just the typical journalist scene.

    SR = Psychopath with extreme amount of love? One view must be false. I bet Mary didin’t have a lot of love since she can’t see and feel it.

    MF pretends not to have a clue of Chinese propaganda machine? She very well knows, just pretends it didn’t occur to her that her stories would help the Chinese.

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  470. Kudos to Dialogue Ireland for at least allowing discussion, lol.

    The “Cult Education Forum” just apparently banned me and/or selectively censored some rather mild posts, while at the same time allowing a guy named “corboy” to paste endless off-topic rants.

    Ironically, there’s less censorship on the Seventh-Day Adventist forum, and on many mainland Chinese forums.

    Thanks again to DI for letting the conversation flow.

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  471. Mary,

    You ask me defend Sogyal Rinpoche saying that faith in him will cure cancer and blindness. But how do I know he even said it? Because some immature french journalist who has an obvious bias against Tibetan retreat centers that don’t allow smoking and cell phone use on premises is telling the truth? I haven’t heard Sogyal Rinpoche speak very many times, but I find it highly unlikely he would say such a thing. That article is filled with such obvious distortions and plays on the unfortunate french tendency to embrace xenophobic accusations that I refuse to take anything that journalist says as truth. Nor should you. Plus I have my own arguably limited experience of Sogyal Rinpoche to go on.

    Still waiting for DI to explain on what basis they stick by the paid millions of dollars to settle the case… I expect that will be a long wait.

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  472. Any tmd wmd here, we are watching to see how often you now run your SR-orama on YouTube comments. Will you resist the urge, in order to enhance the film’s credibility, or will you continue to adhere to your boss’s badly-strategized memo to “keep trashing?” You face a dilemma, probably not the first–since I know (and you know), that you are probably better educated than anyone in the Unified Front home office.

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  473. I really want to know the starting point of this film. The timing is just so incredibly suspect.

    I don’t know about you, but I haven’t run into many genuine coincidences in the Wumaosphere.

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  474. I so heartily agree about the HHDL point – I can’t yet access the film, but noticed that on the trailer (and in the stills) HHDL is prominently in the picture.

    If this is purposeful, how incredibly ingenuine (or uninformed) to subtly attempt to slander the very man who has clearly said that students have every right (and duty) to expose any abuses they encounter on their path.

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  475. Insults and prejudice?

    You mean where I refer to things you said and point out the contradictions between what you say and the actual facts? Since your claiming that others have behaved unethically and we have mostly your words to go on, it seems fair to examine your ethics, the veracity of your statements and competency of your investigative journalism skills.

    I knew you would not be willing to engage in a reasonable conversation.

    BTW- I manged to watch the documentary you keep going on about. Aside from its immature documentary style (for example filming the lerab ling temple through the weeds as if it was some kind of spy cam or slow mo of Sogyal RInpoche teaching in a way that ;looks visually unflattering. The worst part is the way the leave no doubt about ties between Sogyal Rinpoche and HH Dalai Lama. It is disgusting the way they insinuate that HH is involved or looking the other way or something else nefarious. And guess what? You are one of the stars of that documentary. How can you claim in all good conscience that you respect the Dalai Lama and you are just telling the truth and have no responsibility for how people use you?

    I have given you lots of chances to clarify your position and you just bob and weave. I guess that is what you have to do when you get caught with your hands in the cookie jar.

    If you want, we can discuss how likely it is that Victoria Barlow is telling anything like the truth in that film. I am not an investigative journalist but with a few phone calls it was fairly easy to find people who have no skin in this game either way who knew Vicki back in the day. They paint a very different picture….

    Ok Dialogue Ireland how about explaining why you are unwilling to retract the Sogyal Rinpoche spent millions to settle the lawsuit BS?
    .

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  476. Mary, with all due respect, you’re just not getting the picture. One simply cannot (thank God) indict a person based on what is printed in a magazine article.

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  477. That will be a long walk- Perhaps Chairman Mao will go on the long march!

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  478. None of us always tell the absolute truth and all of us are fallible. We live in the relative world.Sheila — if you want substantiation come and read my dossier. It is chock full of it. I do not recall ever accusing Sogyal of being a criminal A psychopath — yes — no doubt about that. I have tried my best to be reasonable with both you and Anon-la and all i get in return is insults and prejudice. This is my last post until something else crops up that merits attention. And again FYI, the Marianne feature is not my style of journalism, but it highlights important aspects of the dysfunctional cult ambiance at Rigpa events — eg Sogyal’s bullying, schandenfreud and his massive egotism. If anything is criminal it is his claim mentioned in Marianne that devotion to him can cure cancer and restore sight. Defend that please — go ahead. Be my guest.

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  479. In an ironic twist, many of the Chinese netizens commenting an a 2008-03-30 Douban reprint of Lattin’s article voice their doubts as to the veracity of his story.

    Google《西藏生死书》的作者索甲仁波切强奸女信徒事件

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  480. Mary,

    You are fairly exasperating. How can you say you didn’t read something that you wrote a response to?

    It is all fine and good to hide behind “I just tell the truth” as if that absolves you from any responsibility.

    But actually you sometimes don’t tell the truth. For example, there are places on this site, where a poster made the point that Sogyal RInpoche and Namkhai Norbu were close friends. You flatly denied this possibility. I also, with a bit of digging, found a similar claim from net news groups years ago again you said it wasn’t so. Now we can see that Namkhai Norbu invited Sogyal RInpoche to Merrigar and then Norbu came to Lerab Ling. All my friends who are close to Norbu have said for years that this friendship existed. Certainly someone with your journalistic skills and alleged closeness to Norbu can’t possibly have missed this. Never did you retract any statement…

    It is very difficult to know when you are speaking a fact and when you might be just a bit loose with the truth.

    If you would just distance yourself from xenophobic attacks such as the Marianne article etc. that would at least be a step in the right direction.

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  481. A sleazy lifestyle is not a crime; those making false, or unproven, accusations of Rigpa being run by a “criminal” are also destroying good work. That’s where I object so strongly to the sloppy approach to accusations–sweeping depictions of Rigpa as some kind of harem.

    NONE of this has been substantiated. In the meantime, people who could be getting help with end-of-life issues may now not get it. That is a terrible price to pay (to make OTHERS pay) for any gratification one may feel at seeing a “sleazy” man publicly criticized.

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  482. Anonla at this rate you’ll be a fully signed up member of the Mary Finnigan fan club;-) FYI – I hardly ever read the comments on CiF so no — I tell the truth as far as I possibly can (everyone filters everything via their own subjectivity — its just a matter of degree) and I repeat — had no idea about the Chinese exploitation of material posted on the internet.. I am not at all happy about this, but there’s nothing I can do to make it go away. Sheila — I agree, it is sad that aspects of Rigpa which are beneficial are discredited by Sogyal’s sleazy lifestyle and bully boy persona. In my view it is up to Rigpa members to deal with this problem.

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  483. Sorry, “needed work.”

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  484. Thank you, Mary – I don’t know if the online court records go back that far, but if not, I’ll request a hard copy.

    I have to agree with Anon-la again that xenophobia cannot be discounted out of hand; Chinese xenophobia, for example, contributes to the anti-Tibetan and anti-western sentiment fueling the anti-Tibet propaganda drive (as well as just plain old greed). I can’t imagine the neighbors around Dzogchen Beara don’t have their own fears; the first thing I thought when I heard of DB is, “Oh man, wonder how the community is taking that one.” West Cork is not exactly a place one can plunk down an Asian religious facility without comment, lol.

    Isn’t it logical to assume the church might feel threatened by the palliative care aspects as well, sadly? I mean, come on – citizens on their deathbed turning their minds toward Asian philosophy instead of the traditional last rites? This would be a horrifying concept for so many Catholics. I doubt they’ve read the book and realized how ecumenical it is (encouraging Christians, for example, to use their own imagery at the point of death). Locals may very well mistakenly assume that Nyingma centers are only about proselytizing Buddhism, which is so far from the truth.

    My greatest sadness in all this is thinking of the great work Rigpa and other Buddhist centers have done, and that a lot of compassionate people and compassionate programs could suffer unfairly because of a witch hunt. I really don’t care if Sogyal Rinpoche slept with women. If he committed a crime, then prove it; I will be saddened, but will accept it. But hopefully we can all conduct ourselves in a way that doesn’t hurt innocent bystanders nor destroy good and need work in the field of palliative care.

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  485. Mary, you claim you didn’t know until a few days ago. I see that on your guardian on-line post on Migyur Rinpoche someone else raised the same issue. It is a thread you responded to. So I guess you forgot that you already knew?

    Bob and weave, bob and weave.

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  486. I had no idea that Chinese propagandists were recycling items I put on the internet until it came up here a couple of days ago. And methinks Anon-la’s chip on his/her shoulder is weighing him/her down to the extent that s/he is fantasising via tunnel vision. Sheila — it say the Superior Court of California in and for The County of Santa Cruz. dated Nov 2 1994. Action no 159647. Authenticated by Christine Patton – Clerk.

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  487. Anon-la, I do think there’s xenophobia at work. I do also believe, and know from personal experience, that the Chinese government is, in fact, milking the story.

    Because there are so many unusual factors at work (the Chinese government wouldn’t be as likely to interfere with a sexual harassment case against a non-Tibetan, for example), I think it becomes extremely important for anyone who really believes there is wrongdoing to be clear, accurate, and professional in their approach.

    The articles I’ve read so far take such a sensationalist angle, that I have to force myself to give them the benefit of the doubt and keep reading. And then the immediate question leaps into my mind, “Why?” Why would anyone seriously pursuing a case risk turning people off like that, by writing it up as a gossip piece?

    Writing style doesn’t really have any bearing on whether a story is true, but it sure as heck has bearing on how the public accepts it. I’m assuming that the point of the articles is to convince the public that Sogyal Rinpoche and Rigpa are bad. So why not do it in a way that is more convincing? I’m no journalist, and I apologize if this comes off as criticism of individual writers–I don’t mean it that way. What I mean is that the minute I see “lurid internet rumours” being used in an article to bolster its impact, I sigh and start checking in with the wumao gang.

    I would ask Mary and others not to be too hard on those of us who voice honest suspicions of a Chinese genesis for this story–we may be wrong, but the PRC spends such inordinate resources generating or co-opting Tibetan “scandals,” that such a reaction is unavoidable.

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  488. Mary, I appreciate it, but it would be easier to just get a copy from Santa Cruz myself–was it circuit court?

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  489. Notice that Mary refuses to respond to the issue of xenophobia. She will claim to respect Tibetan Buddhism, but that is actually a ruse designed to make you think she has some special connection with the teachings and insight. She will bob and weave, bob and weave. She will castigate her detractors as part of a cult without any evidence to back that up. Demonize your opponents, that’s the best way to neutralize them and render ineffective their potentially damaging points.

    She has done enormous harm to Tibetan people through her efforts. She care not a whit. Because the virtue of a handful of women of european descent is more important than any number of lives of people of color. If she could have at least acknowledged the downside of the xenophobic aspects the Marrianne article or expressed some kind of regret during the 2000s when her posts first started getting used as PRC propaganda then that would be a different matter. Her record on this issue is disgustingly consistent. And just watch how she will refuse to have a reasonable discussion here. She will just ignore it or call me names or say “I am out of here”. Guaranteed.

    BTW the Janice Doe indictment was a matter of public record. No one is denying that a lawsuit was filed. Interestingly, despite the fact that Mary alleges this behavior was going on since the 70s, no one thought it was worth suing Sogyal Rinpoche until his book came out and he had a bit of money.

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  490. Sheila — I have a comprehensive dossier of corroborated evidence on Sogyal in video, audio and print format. This includes a copy of the Janice Doe indictment. You can see a page of this in the Canadian documentary In the Name of Enlightenment. If you can find your way to England I am willing to give you access to the dossier in my presence. I will not allow you to copy anything from it or to take it away.

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  491. DI-Moderator,

    Thank you for your response. Why wouldn’t you change the briefing document? Since you can’t provide evidence that Sogyal Rinpoche settled the lawsuit for millions (presumably because he did not) what reason on earth would you have for making such an silly claim? Unless of course you don’t care about ethics? This seems pretty straight forward.

    My next post I will point out obvious flaws in the way Buddhism is represented

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  492. The Chinese web portal Tianya (tech discussion forum) mentions the 1994 settlement was negotiated in Santa Cruz, CA (I believe other sites mention this location as well).

    I’ve found the Santa Cruz “Superior Court Case Inquiry” database online, but haven’t been able to get back ti 1994 yet. Not being the legal type, I’m not sure I’m even in the right court, but it’s a place to start.

    If anyone here has links to copies (or info on how to get copies) of the actual court documents, that would be much appreciated. There is so much about the Sogyal Rinpoche accusations that is undocumented–it would be good to at least establish what is undocumented.

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  493. Guilia you write_
    I once made a cup of tea for him and me and maybe also the other monks and I noticed he looked very suspicious at the potion I had brewed (a green tea of rather coarse leaves). This suspicion struck me and in the back of my mind I thought “One must be careful with this man, he might be a poison-mixer”

    This is madness-someone looks at a cup of tea with an odd look and you jump to the conclusion they are therefore in the habit of mixing poisons for people?

    You have a few psychotic experiences and become paranoid, thinking you’ve been fed hallucinogens by monks? Get a grip, or see a good psychiatrist.

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  494. DI Moderation:
    Of course we won’t change the briefing document but we will continue to allow you to put forward your views. If you bring any evidence we can post we would be delighted to do so. However, all you are doing is making an assertion not providing new evidence.

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  495. A crime against humanity and a total lie it would be to claim that such a false tulku and/or mean bastard “has supreme DNA” and therefore needs to knock up many women.

    I want to point out to those women and peoples that in countries like the Netherlands we have sperm-banks with sperm from men that are indeed, after very thorough investigation, considered to be “of supreme DNA” (needless to say some of my family-members have also donated there) and that one can go there and get *free* treatment.

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  496. As said, “sex is not a crime”. I am happy Sheila brought this in.

    What I DO consider a crime is to mis-educate monks and nuns and tell them all types of horror-stories about sexual intercourse. When a befriended monk one day asked me: “What do you think of sex and how is it?”, I was frank with him and said “Zambulingla, di yaksho re”, but I also told him many problems are usually involved as well in relationships.

    What I consider extremely mean & injust, if not criminal, is that tulkus, abbots, etc. seem to have (lots of) sex, whereas the common monks/nuns cannot have any (?? sometimes I think a monastery has it’s own whores?? — this is a crime because it leads to misogeny).

    What I consider total misogenic misbehaviour is that those tulkus, abbots, andsoforth, merely use women for sex so that “they can progress in their practice” — and do not worry about the “progress in the practice” of those women. Moreover, a total crime is that it has happened more than once that those women become pregnant and that they steal the babies from them, especially when it are boys, once they are old enough to go to the monastery; in which cases they falsely have the identity of “any monk” (but is, in fact, a son / one of the sons). It is a double crime (1. against the mother because child is stolen from her; 2. against the correct continuation of the lineages of the buddhadharma) when such a boy is *falsely* claimed to be a tulku.

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  497. Sheila is rightfully saying “sex is not a crime”. I agree.

    What I find “unjust” is to lie, saying: “SHE is the one who wanted me”;
    what comes close to a crime is to lie, saying: “She is the one who wanted me and she KNEW I am a monk because I was in monks’ clothes”.
    What is DEFINITELY a crime is to poison someone with the purpose of killing him/her.

    What also is a crime is to *not tell you have been lying and that your lies have caused that person very much harm, extremely much*.
    What is merely stupid is to wave away all possibilities extended in front of your nose to make up for your miserable behaviour that led to crimes and a devastated life.
    What is merely inhuman is to not go out of your way, once an adult, to make up for what you did to her. Such a person is *not* a tulku, but an inhuman, mean bastard.l

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  498. “Sexual abuse by Tibetan lamas” must be redefined in my opinion:

    “The extreme form of sexual abuse is to be begged by a young man to please take him home, be jumped upon by surprise once in the room, and then, after throwing him out because one is not interested in intercourse with someone like that and smashing his clothes in the hall-way, be once more jumped upon eagerly in the morning, receive messengers for the next couple of days begging me to receive that young man in bed, which one refuses AND much later discover that such a guy has lied about his age, and that he was, in fact, a monk, AND later discover that he has, moreover, LIED and said HE WAS seduced by one AND, MOREOVER, to be PUNISHED severely for something one never did.”

    Such a man should never ever deserve the name of “tulku” again. In the West, the gentleman law is even to lie to the opposite, if necessary, BUT BASIC education is that a man takes the blame for his own horny behaviour.

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  499. As for that messed with old Mercedes of Sogyal: I have combined logics & intuition / dreams and I have come to the conclusion that a fat lazy man with a stick convinced a young innocent tulku-boy to “play a game” and instructed him to do such and such. I then thought that tulku (?), who now must be an adult, might need some psychological help because he now sees clearly what he was made to do, but I don’t know, maybe he is a hardened criminal in the meantime.
    If I were papa RR, I would definitely be angry with fatty for making sonny carry out legally punishable crimes. Also, if I were RR, I would furthermore stop that guy + the elder one from furtheron messing with my life and cars (even recently have been doing) and make the young one confess *every* crime & misdeed in front of him so that he can liberate his conscience. Q. to RR: Did that boy ever lie and tell anyone it was ME who seduced hIm??? Make him confess!!! This can turn into a very bad habit!!! EXTREMELY ungentlemanlike to blame the ladies for one’s own insisting behaviour & hormones!!!

    Furtheron: How do you people think you’re going to compensate ME?!

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  500. Sheila: could be. But: 1. The hospital in Sarlat-la-Caneda was receiving similar cases all the time and asked me straightaway when I came in: “Did they give you any substances to eat?” and were obviously tired of getting all these cases; 2. They wanted me to eat many pills even though I protested and said they wanted to kill me — they then sent other people to soothe me into taking the pills; 3. My jerry-can of drinking water also got changed even though just fresly filled; 4. They had drawn a circle around the caravan and signs on the road; 5. They did not pick up the phone when I phoned them (many times, numbers they usually responded to); 6. Somehow I felt steered to my write my will in the caravan and a letter of goodbye to my parents.

    Giulia

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  501. sorry that above post is from the newly named Anon-la

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  502. Sheila,
    Thanks for the name. In fairness, although some people here are somewhat spuriously trying to make the case that their was a crime committed, that isn’t what this is about. As a Buddhist teacher, it would be kind of unfortunate if Sogyal Rinpodhe were teaching buddhism as way to procure women solely for worldly pleasure. But since we can’t easily know the motivation of another, this is a very difficult case to make.

    In fact it is precisely because what the lawsuit was about is so hard to make as a criminal case, plus there is no money in it, that the plaintiff went the civil suit route. In civil suits in the USA there is a substantially lower burden of proof, plus no law necessarily has to have been broken to claim injury and ask for reparation.

    In anycase, from what I have observed, Mary Finnegan uses the tactics she decries. Just watch, Racial intolerance is dressed as political correctness.

    And Dialogue Ireland won’t change the briefing document no matter what kinds of logical inconsistencies are pointed out or outright mistakes.

    I dare them to prove me wrong.

    I can give a list any time. But let’s just see if they will budge on the obvious falsehood of the lawsuit was settled for millions.

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  503. You know what – I think there’s something that needs very much to be clarified here.

    Sex is not illegal. Sex with pretty women is not illegal. All this bunk about Sogyal Rinpoche having or not having sex with pretty young women is completely, and utterly, irrelevant. Sogyal Rinpoche is not a monk.

    It’s neither illegal nor immoral for dance instructors, Irish instructors, history instructors, sailing instructors, or philosophy teachers to have sex with other adults. I am really sick and tired of sex being put out there as inherently evil; this is a perverted view of human life that has hurt women for centuries. “Men who have sex are evil; women who have sex are either dirty, or abuse victims.”

    The articles about SR go on with feigned horror as to the idea of him “sleeping with young pretty women.” I’m sorry–who doesn’t want to sleep with young, pretty women again?? And why are you implying that sleeping together is somehow icky?? Thanks for ensuring our western, Puritan hangover will be around to haunt our daughters and granddaughters.

    Only CRIME is a crime. Don’t doom yet another generation of women to grow up believing sex is evil, and that they are either evil or stupid for engaging in it. If Sogyal Rinpoche or any man has committed a CRIME, then for god’s sake do your work and prove it.

    The issue of whether or not Sogyal Rinpoche has sex is utterly irrelevant; what remains is the issue of whether or not he has committed a crime against anyone, male or female. Is there someone out there alleging that? What is it, who is alleging it, and when is it going to court? I am genuinely interested and concerned.

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  504. Hi again, Giulia – just wanted to mention I wasn’t disagreeing with your poisoning assessment, necessarily; just wanted to know whether you thought there was any chance the manganese could have been a natural part of the pill’s composition.

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  505. You bring up a good point, Anon-la…I haven’t seen proof of any settlement, either. Shame on me for accepting it as a given, when I hadn’t even thought to check it out.

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  506. You will observe of course that Mary will bob and weave and refuse to engage in any kind of reasoned debate about her accusations and motivation.

    Clearly her actions speak for themselves: Since her internet posts have started appearing in pro PRC web sites during the early 2000s, Mary has done nothing to distance herself from it. Even though it has been used as a way to attack His Holiness the Dalai Lama who she allegedly has so much respect for.

    It seems like she is more interested in the virtue of white women and not at all for the suffering of Tibetans. Even to have to point out that the alleged crime of inappropriate consensual sex vs. brutal repression of an entire culture is astounding. Anyway, don’t expect she will ever answer.

    As to Dialogue Ireland, you will notice that they are not particularly interested in the truth and the xenophobic stench of their actions can’t be ignored.

    For example, ask them to produce any legal document that Sogyal Rinpoche actually paid money to settle the lawsuit as they allege in the briefing document. This point has been raised before and they ignore it.

    There is more in the briefing document that is utterly false, impossible to substantiate or seemingly purposefully misleading or completely getting it wrong in terms of Buddhism.

    I suggest that DI start a thread where these kinds of issues can be discussed. That is, if they are really interested in dialogue instead of a xenophobic witch hunt.

    Would dialogue ireland be willing to change the briefing document whenever there is no actual evidence or countervailing evidence? So far the answer is no.

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  507. Manganese is used in many medicinal traditions, including western; it occurs naturally in many medicinal plants.

    Your friend Paul But would likely be a great source of information on this – he’s working for Bionovo to patent Asian medicinal plants.

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  508. I suggest some others might be exposed: those that took over the role of big lamas who, in fact, died during the shift from Tibet to India.

    GG

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  509. Anon,

    My doctor currently has the pills they gave me under research — most probably manganese, also used in World War II —
    Your tone of voice is outspokenly demeaning, you must be an extremely nasty person.

    Giulia

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  510. I am reading through the “Briefing on Sogyal Rinpoche” and am utterly appalled at the shoddy journalism if it can even be called that (the briefing is from multiple writers – I’m not singling anyone out just yet).

    I will state right now that I do not have a solid opinion one way or the other (yet) on whether any allegations against this man are true. But how uninspiring is it to read this in the very first part of Don Lattin’s November 10, 1994 piece in the San Francisco Free Press:

    “With the blessings of the Dalai Lama, a group of American Buddhist women have launched a campaign to expose the alleged sexual misconduct of a prominent Tibetan lama and best-selling author.”

    This paragraph is designed to mislead the reader into believing nothing less than that the Dalai Lama told people in late 1994, directly, to “expose Sogyal Rinpoche.” In fact, the Dalai Lama had given a 9 day teacher conference in March,1993, 1 year and 8 months earlier, which covered a slew of topics including taking teachers as gurus without proper examination; idealizing gurus unrealistically; ethical conduct of Buddhist teachers; the relation between true realizations and ethical behavior; giving tantric initiations without proper examination of the students; the training of Western monks and nuns; differentiating the essence of Buddhism from its Asian cultural aspects; the role of women in Buddhism; translation issues; ritual, titles and robes; integration with techniques from psychotherapy; and overcoming sectarianism.

    I’ll continue to dig, and post what I find (happy to pass on all links). I am interested in the truth, regardless of what that is. Color me unimpressed by the case so far.

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  511. Interesting – from the “Sex Scandals in Religion” website (that’s the name of the series that included the Buddhist episode, “In the Name of Enlightenment”):

    “All full episodes are now streaming for free to members with Canadian IP addresses. Episode 1 is also available to users with Iranian IP addresses. Help Sex Scandals In Religion get wider distribution by letting your local TV stations know you want to see this series. Let the producers know you’d like to view the episodes in your territory”

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  512. And if I was like Mary I would say that it was all a plot to distract people from the questions raised above, which she is no doubt hoping to not to have to answer. Here is a repeat:

    Hi Mary,

    I personally find the way you demonize anyone who has an opinion that isn’t according to your party line a big turn off. It is pretty clear that with 1000s of students, if Rigpa wanted to have a go at spin, they could drown the posts here completely out with the voices of their students. It is pretty clear there is no organized campaign of spin against you, even though you have made it clear there is an organized campaign against SR.

    SO rather than attack the messenger, perhaps you could address the issue. Your posts are used as PRC propaganda, yet you claim to have incredible respect for HH the Dalai Lama. Yet the Dalai Lama clearly has done nothing to distance himself from Sogyal Rinpoche, if anything he has done the opposite. So, people are claiming that posts are used on chinese language sites to denigrate Sogyal Rinpoche and therefore by association the Dalai Lama.

    Since what is alleged by you is inappropriate consensual sexual relations between Sogyal Rinpoche and some of his students. Even if it is true, how to square that with the fact that as a side effect your posts are used as a tool in the propaganda support the brutal murderous suppression of millions of Tibetans? Is that how you show enormous respect for His Holiness?

    Is the virtue of white women is so much more important than the lives of people of color? You defend the xenophobia of the Marrianne article too. Hmmm.

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  513. Giulia-I would suggest OTR told you you would never be able to enter his house again because he considered you t be dangerously psychologically imbalanced

    See a doctor and get some medication.

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  514. wow-so much trolling and madness here, psychic vampires blood fest or what???
    ‘Recently, I had some news in a dream’ No alarm bells ringing anyone?
    Maybe, unless youre actually EVER going to do anything about it, it would be better to stop talking barrel loads of nonsense and get your funky ass on the cushion people?

    Or did you transcend all that? Already enlightened?

    Sheer madness running riot here, Follow the Japanese advice-PAY NO ATTENTION

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  515. But back to the topic at hand – how can we say that the Dalai Lama and other teachers have “closed ranks” around Sogyal Rinpoche, when the Dalai Lama is on record telling students very clearly to expose abuse wherever they encounter it?

    And always, always remember: just because someone is accused, does not mean they are guilty.

    A huge, huge problem remains the definition of “sexual harassment” itself. What is a crime, and what isn’t a crime? Where do a woman’s responsibilities begin and end? Undoubtedly, some accusations of “sexual harassment” are levied against men who do not deserve them; if we keep encouraging women to foist these types of cases on the court, what message do we send to young women about their own power? Isn’t it a bombardment of the message, “You are powerless – take it to court, whatever it is?”

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  516. I agree with the “shutting up” thing – I nearly didn’t post the details of our local man’s consulate experience, since they immediately give away who he is. But he’s told the story far and wide himself.

    If you and Paul took lots of pics in Tibet before the 2008 crackdown, I could definitely understand those being sensitive now.

    For example, there’s someone on the Shugden forum posting what purports to be a “Shugden rock painting.” Obviously, pictures taken several years earlier would show no such painting, so those pictures become sensitive.

    It’s very hard for everyday people to match the resources of a government department. But for whatever reason, they seem perpetually clumsy in their attempts, so there’s always a chance to get some truth out here and there.

    As for the Shugden statue you saw, that sounds like the ones I’ve seen. But 1999…that would be a little early for the hastily-manufactured plasticky ones, or no?

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  517. PS Certain people seem to be awfully uptight about the Photo Album “China” posted on the FB-site “Jelly Dorje” — am wondering which secrets are entailed…… (also that set of pictures has been stolen from my house as well as USB-stick erased — but found digital copy of pics again).

    PS Am posting this for my own safety: the more public this issue is, in less danger I consider myself to be —- not knowing anything & shutting up about it has not helped me —- harassing was continuing and my car has been sabotaged this spring — had to bring it to the car cemetery…

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  518. Currently am trying to track down mr. But — hopefully he is still alive

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  519. Wasn’t Jaccard. Statue looked brandnew to me, in a multitude of bright colours.

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  520. I am very happy I have found this site, thank you, Mrs. Finnigan.

    For more ranting & raving on the flaws & mistakes of Tibetan buddhism , as well as proposals on how to ameliorate, I refer to the Facebook-site “Jelly Dorje”

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  521. Do you remember the nature of the statue at Rinzinla’s? I’ve looked and looked, and can’t find any dolgyal/shugden statues that look even remotely antique.

    I’m very glad you survived your hair-raising experiences, and sincerely hope the Swiss woman wasn’t Jaccard!

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  522. Anyway, the bottom-line seems to be: sleep with Sogyal (or be invited to do so or whatever that was all about) and one earns 10 million dollars — NOT BAD –; give in to insistent begging by “K” (happened to me in both 1997 and 2002 in India) and be killed by poison (if you’re more or less lucky) or blown into a zombie with inmense suffering by poisonings — sheer horror

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  523. Orgyen Tenzin Nueden Dorje most probably is the terton of the Changter (Northern treasures) and has nothing to do with Shugden, if that is what “dolgyal” means

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  524. Are you saying Orgyen Tenzin Nueden Dorje is a name for dolgyal?

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  525. OH…sorry, just realized I had tried to include a website!

    Giulia – Thank you for your amazing and detailed recollections! I’ll have to reread it several times (at least) to understand it all!

    I think this is the same Paul But you referred to – seems recent (2011): – can’t post link, but Google “Dr. Paul Pui-Hay But, Ph.D. Joins Bionovo, Inc. Scientific Advisory Board.”

    May I ask what the statue of dolgyal looked like? I’ve always found it odd that there doesn’t seem to be an abundance of statues nor thangkas showing this figure. The few pictures I’ve seen have looked very plasticky and recent.

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  526. Why is nothing posting?

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  527. NB I have no idea about the sex-drive nor sexual preferences of Sogyal Rinpoche nor ever have been interested in it, but he is definitely not a murderer nor a poisoner like certain others, but a protector, and so am I.

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  528. NB I have sent both documents to mr. Sogyal Rinpoche because I trust him in these matters

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  529. Further poisoning(s) that meant to be deadly — in India

    I wrote this document for mr. Dzigar Kongtrul himself so that he knows his house in the Himalayas has been abused of by obscure individuals (to say the least).

    Spring 2003 in the house of my next-door neighbour Dzigar Kongtrul Rinpoche two new monks were installed. One of them called himself “Tenzin Namgyal”, a man of very short height (about 1.55 m.) speaking a tight dialect of the East of Tibet. That Tenzin Namgyal (henceforth TN) would sit outside that house with his monk, who is currently still residing in that house, I think, and try to lure me into the house, which I had visited a few times due to the kindness of the monk that was living there, a certain Namdri. Time upon time that TN would ask me to come into the house and later on would send Namdri to ask me to come and visit him.

    I once made a cup of tea for him and me and maybe also the other monks and I noticed he looked very suspicious at the potion I had brewed (a green tea of rather coarse leaves). This suspicion struck me and in the back of my mind I thought “One must be careful with this man, he might be a poison-mixer”. Once on a night, when I visited them for watching BBC-news or “Kasuti” (an Indian soap) or both, TN made a cup of hot water with a camphor-like susbstance in it for me and also put down a cup of hot water for himself and disappeared in the adjacent puja-room and told me to drink my cup. I thought at that time I must put him to the test, so I quickly switched the cups and drank the liquid from that other cup and left him with mine.

    TN would flirt with me, secretly touch my hand and buttocks, andsoforth.

    That TN then a couple of weeks or so later somehow insisted we go and visit Karmapa in Sidhbari. I had said many times I did not feel any need to go to any other lama since I was very happy & content in Bir. But that TN insisted pretty much. It was a special day on which many people were going there and it was difficult to get a car at the bazaar of Bir. I had a car come to pick us up next to the house, though, and when we came to the bazaar several monks were tearing open the door and jumped in the hired taxi. I did not find such a treatment proper for a tulku, which that Tenzin Namgyal seemed, and got out of the car and told TN to take my seat next to the driver instead. He then took place there and I wanted to stay behind in Bir because there was no way I was going to travel in such a full car. TN then panicked and said definitely I must come and got back in the top-full back of the car. I said I could not allow the indecency of him travelling in this way and made trouble. Finally, after talking and tugging, we got the extra monks out of the car.
    Half-way (in Palampur) that taxi broke down and we had to arrange another car from Palampur. When we finally got to Sidhbari, I discovered we had to show an ID and I had not brought one (I am from a free country and uptil then had only needed my passport when crossing a border). I said it was a pity, I could not enter and that they were free to go inside. Tenzin Namgyal once again panicked and somehow arranged for me to go inside without ID.
    Hardly we came into the audience hall of Sidhbari or my bag, the only of all bags among the people, with I think my water-bottle, was confiscated by some guards. Karmapa was already in the room and was watching this. I said to the guards: “What do you want that bag for? They said they needed to check whether I had any weapons inside. I said: “You must be joking, I am from Holland, in Holland we don’t do these things, we don’t carry weapons ever, I am from a civilized country, we don’t even have those things”. But the guards insisted they must check for knives or guns (!).
    During the audience (…) TN made a point of it to not sit directly next to me. K. looked at me and kind of told me to fold my hands. He was doing some strange energy work and at a certain point he winked at me and I could notice the consternation of both K. and TN when this “trick” apparently did not have the whatever desired effect.
    After the audience, we went back in the cab that was waiting for us. On the way, I drank a lot of water from my bottle, which TN observed from the back-seat. I also offered him and the other monk some water, but they did not want any.
    On the way to Palampur I saw an extraordinary spectacle of taras & goddesses emerging from the soil & stones & they were singing. TN observed me from the back-seat. I told him what a beautiful spectacle outside and he only nodded.
    In Palampur, as by miracle, the cab we had left there that morning was waiting for us in the place where we left it and we switched cabs within seconds and without paying anything to the first cab that took us from Palampur to Dharamsala and back.
    We arrived in Bir and I went to my home. I think TN went to Chokling Rinpoche to have dinner there.
    After dinner, I was once again invited to come over to the house next-door. We were chatting a bit. At a certain point the key of my house, which used to be in my little money purse, was missing. Had Namdri taken it? I could not go home. TN kept me there a while longer. He must have done one of his tricks, because all of a sudden the key was in the pocket of my trousers. I then wanted to go home. Tenzin Namgyal at that point handed me over a cup of mysterious brownish potion and told me to take it to my house and drink it there.
    I left and when I arrived at my house, I noticed the padlock was swinging from the door and not locked. I found this strange. My suspicion was arisen. I went into my house with the cup with the potion. Dekyi, the dog belonging to my landlord & neighbour Jamyang Gyaltsen came in, as she would sometimes do, and pissed on the floor before my bed, which she had never done before. I was hesitating whether to drink the potion or not. I think I drank a little. I stood in my room. The dog Dekyi was leaping up and down my body/legs. It was as if the dog wanted to tell me something. I did not know what to do. I felt observed in the dark. I felt the need to fool whoever could be observing me in the dark. I filled another cup with another drink and placed it next to the first cup. I switched the cups around again and again and tried to make believe whoever could be there observing me that I no longer knew which cup was which, or at least that such person would no longer know this. I touched lips to the potion, but Dekyi, the dog, started to squeak and leapt even wilder up and down my legs. I think I drank very little. I threw away most of the potion or all and filled that cup up with water. I drank the other drink I had made for myself and gave the other cup with water to the dog.

    I then went asleep. I felt strange & crazy the next day and a few crazy things happened. I heard hard noises of breaking wood in the adjacent room which at that time still was rented out to Bruce. I later asked Jamyang Gyaltsen about this and he said: “Nothing to worry about, this happens more often when OTR is angry”. I noticed the dog Dekyi was laying next to my house squeaking and that she was acting in a very weird way.

    I later noticed that on top of the hill between Jamyang G’s and Dzigar Kongtrul’s house, over the then rudimentary swimming-pool, there was a hole in the ground the size & shape of a grave. I asked Jamyang what this was for, as I had never seen such a hole before in the years I had lived there. He said it was to bury garbage, but I found it strange since I had never seen such hole before.

    When I came back to Bir after summer 2003, I came a little bit earlier then usual, like end of monsoon. I became very sick. I was coughing all the time. Monk Tashi Norbu thought I was going to die. Then, somebody put a poisonous cucumber on my door-step. Fortunately, it was very bitter, so I ate very little of it, but still, I became very sick and thought I was going to die.
    I was emailing with a Hong Kong based business man Paul But, whom I had met in spring 2003 during Mahamudra teachings by Tai Situ, where I was allowed to sit in without any payment and although I had not been following teachings by TS before, as seemed to be a prerequisite normally. Paul told me Tai Situ had asked him to visit a certain monastery in China / East-Tibet, to go and sponsor the construction of a stupa. He invited me to come along as his “advisor”. I flew to Hong Kong from Delhi in October 2003. He took me for a walk along a beach of Hong Kong. He said he had a very big secret to tell me. He had received a small plastic bag with around 25 grams of a mysterious substance. He showed it to me. He said it was very secret. I could clearly see that that was not dutsi. It were small grey, slate-like pieces in grey dust. He said he was afraid of the substance. I told him not to worry as the lamas many times have all types of medicines. But he insisted he was afraid. He told me his father had died in hospital a few weeks back. The father was already quite sick. As TS had given the substance to Paul, Paul was curious. The father seemed to be dying. To put the stuff to the test, Paul gave a little bit of the substance to his father. He said: “I feel guilty I did this as he seemed to die right away. It looked as if he had a heart-attack and then died instantly.” I told him not to worry and that the lamas give good substances only. But Paul insisted again and again on feeling guilty and worried. He invited me to sniff the stuff. In the mean time, he had scared me and I did not even want to smell the stuff. I looked into the bag, though, and DID establish that no typical dutsi/mendrup smell was coming from the substance, nor was it shiny like dutsi/mendrup usually is, but rather powderish. Also the colour was not brownish nor reddish, but, as said, grey. He told me he was to bring that little bag to that monastery as well.
    We went to Shenzhen and took a plane from there to the city of Lanzhou, where a monk (I have a picture of that monk) was waiting for us at the airport. The next day we went by bus (I have a picture of that bus) from Lanzhou to a small town, where we were received by a committee of the Communist Party. They also talked about a certain Bön monastery which was supposed to be near to the monastery that we were to visit. This aroused my interest as I had never visited a Bön monastery before. But they put on dirty grimaces and spoke bad of that monastery.
    The next day we were taken by jeep to the monastery in the mountains, maybe 1.5 hour drive? Paul either had a black-and-white picture of an elder lama in Chengdu that he either thought he would visit or thought that would be in that monastery or they showed that picture to him. I was also shown that picture. I think two men were on the picture, they looked like lay people to me. Paul apparently wanted and/or expected to meet him as it was supposed to be a special man.
    In the kitchen of the monastery, the monks (3? 4?) asked many questions about my cell phone, looking back, it was as if they were trying to make sure I could not contact anybody from there. Before going to sleep, there was the surprise for both Paul and the monks that I did not want to sleep in the same room as Paul. Finally they gave in and put me in the puja room. I noticed a steady flow of water drops was falling all night through on a carton box (or metal pan) and I could not sleep due to it. I went out to remove the object under the water drops.

    The next day, there was some negotiation about how much money Paul wanted to donate to the monastery. Paul was somewhat overwhelmed/surprised/disappointed as next to the monastery (I have pics) there already WAS a stupa (I have pics). Also Paul was disappointed that the “elder and sick lama” was not there. I said I agreed and that I also would love to meet him if that was such a special person. There seemed little else to do that day. I said I wanted to visit the Bön monastery. “Oh, no”, they said, “such is definitely not possible”. I asked about in which direction the Bön monastery was. They said up-stream. A little later I said to Paul: “Now you must tell them you are bored and you want to go for a ride with the car. If they don’t go upstream, you’ll tell them to go the other way.” We indeed went for such ride. As soon as the Bön-monastery came in sight, I wanted them to turn the car there. They would not have anything of it. I was clever and said to Paul: “You ask them to stop here to make a picture.” They stopped. I leapt out of the car. I said to myself: this is the first and who knows last time I am in China/Tibet, I must see a Bön monastery.” So, I crossed the bridge and came near the fenced compound. The people were all doing kora the other way. As I approached, I decided the community looked nice: small huts, at least for lay people but probably also for monks/nuns everywhere in the village. I walked through the village, I don’t think I saw anyone. I entered the temple. Someone came to correct me as I was walking in the wrong direction to the front of the temple. I looked around a bit. All of a sudden a lama came in. He took place on a throne. I went up to maybe give a khata, but at least receive his blessings. While I stood in front / under him, I looked up and looked straight into his eyes and he into mine. It was an impressive man, a real one. It was the best part of the whole visit to China/Tibet. His eyes were dark, deep, profound. I went back to the car. Maybe we went upstream a little more, but, anyway, then we went back to the monastery. All of a sudden Paul decided he had had it at the monastery. He wanted to go back. The plan had been to stay 3 days or so. The monks (I have pic) said such was impossible as the road now was blown with dynamite. Paul came on very strongly now and said “No way, I want to go back now”. The monks objected that the road would be full of huge rocks, but Paul insisted. We went into the car. After a while, Paul noticed his camera had stayed behind. He demanded his camera. I think he went back with one of the monks or he stayed in the car, I don’t know. But I remember him telling me I absolutely must stay where I am (i.e. not go back to the monastery) so that we would be sure to leave that very day. With one of the monks I worked the whole time on removing the rocks from the road. I think Paul was sitting in the car then. The other monk came back with the camera. He insisted to check the pics Paul had taken. Apparently he thought nothing wrong of it. (Paul had been in a protectors’ room that I had not been allowed to visit. They said “protectors’ rooms only men can see”). We went back to Lanzhou. Paul now no longer wanted to sleep in the same room as the monk. We had three separate rooms. Both Paul and me were harassed all night long by strangers phoning us to our rooms (in Chinese; prostitutes?). Paul still tried to convince the monk to take us to the elder lama in Chengdu, but the monk did not seem very willing/interested. Paul was fed up with the monk the next day and we had to shake him off. We hired a taxi to visit Xiahe. After a couple of days we were back in Shenzhen.

    A few weeks later, Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok died. I did not know this. After the stay in Hong Kong I went to Thailand for a couple of weeks. After that, around Losar, I went to Bir again. Apparently, Tenzin Namgyal was called from Kathmandu again and he seemed to be surprised to see me. He was again staying in the house of my next-door neighbour, Dzigar Kongtrul. He showed me some pictures of monks and lamas and pointed out a certain one to me. It was a certain Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok. I still remember that he was observing sharply my reaction as he showed me the pics and more so when he told me Khenpo JP had died recently.
    At the occasion of I think the birthday of Tai Situ or so I visited Sherab Ling. I saw Paul But. He was in a separate room next to the big shrine hall with the standing golden Buddha statue. I said Hello to him and wanted to chat briefly. I think he asked me whether I had any pics of our journey because his camera was lost at Sherab Ling on this very stay, but I am not sure about this. Quickly a monk came to take me from the room where Paul But was. I found this very bad manners, I had only wanted to talk briefly to him. I was led away as if in haste.

    Over the past few weeks, I have been trying to find out whether Paul But is still alive, but I cannot get any info about him. The ones that used to know him have not been in touch with him for a while.

    Recently, I have received some info in a dream. It seems people tried to take a text from Khenpo JP. But they have not found it. In a step-by-step encoded vision I was shown were it is. I can tell you where it is. I have an idea about what is in it. I think OTR already talked about that subject in Dordogne in 1999 or so.

    The whole matter might also have to do with the fact that apparently one of the Orgyen Trinleys (??) has come to visit me in Bir, i.e. begged me in an internetcafe in Palampur to take him home with me; and with the fact that then the nanny of Chokling R., apparently Ngodrup Palzom, was fussing with that OTr in a language identified by a friend of mine as Nepali, and outdoors, on my doorstep, she was bullying him. I told her to leave my guests alone. Later, while we were talking and drinking at my home, I saw that Ngodrup Palzom leap up and down in the garden, in an attempt to spy on us through the window. I closed the curtains. This was spring 2002, I think.

    The whole matter also might have to do with the fact that a certain day I went to visit OTR at his new place, Tsering Jong, to give him a small present. I clearly remember the building was already finished & furnished by then. Tenzin Chophel told me to proceed (i.e. enter). The door of OTR’s room was open. Tenzin Chophel told me to proceed. I had a picture frame with me. I expected to see Rinpoche inside, as TC had told me to go inside. I did not see Rinpoche at all. I wanted to go back, but then thought I might as well leave the picture frame at the place where the pics were. I think there was a picture of me on a mantelpiece or so. One of the pictures taken in China, in the yellow coat. I wanted to leave the frame there, but to be sure this was the right place, I turned around. I saw a small shrine with “a thanka” (!) with a can of Heineken Beer in front of it. This is Dutch beer. All of a sudden, then, OTR emerged out of nowhere. He seemed very menacing, threatening. I was shocked, afraid of him maybe for the first time. He made me walk backwards, as if throwing me out.

    It was the Swiss woman who brought up the subject of worshipping ! when she visited me in my house in Bir. I don’t remember whether it was at that time that “OTr” was visiting me (seems not possible with the dates & all). I said: if that is how ! looks like, the way you describe it, then I have seen ! at OTR’s.

    I think it was after this that I visited OTR and that he asked some questions about the coat I had been wearing to China and whether I had had another coat filled with feathers. I told him I did not remember such second coat .He told me to think. I then remembered I had given a brand new red feather-coat to the nanny of Chokling R., i.e. Ngodrup Palzom (,who would watch that baby when carried into the temple as if it were hers). He nodded gravely. I said something (why??) about how one can identify siblings through a simple genetic test that we had learnt in secondary school: fixed or attached earlobes. He again nodded gravely. I left. I worked in the garden. A while later he sat on a chair next to the back-door entrance to the house, his family gathered around him. He told me: “You can no longer enter this house”. I was shocked and amazed and have never understood why this was. I think this was autumn 2002. It was after this that TN came (i.e. early spring 2003) and poisoned me.

    I would like to point out that the Yangsi of tulku Urgyen that seems to be installed in KTM is by no means the same boy as Chokling Rinpoche’s son, at least, that is, as the boy that looks like CR.

    I think it is important to know who exactly is/are the father(s) of OTr (Dzongsar? Trulshik? Tulku Pema Wangyal from France? DL? Tulku Rangdrol from France? Tai Situ??) and what strategic plan OTR could have had with one or several of the OTrs (marry him/them into the family??) to really get to the bottom of this matter and to be able to include all aspects.

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  530. Story of my first poisoning(s) by Tibetan lamas

    After a solitary meditation retreat of 5½ months I went to the Dordogne to attend the Eastern-teachings at Chanteloube in 1999, given by Jigme Khyentse Rinpoche and tulku Pema Wangyal. I handed over to Jigme Khyentse 1 A4-size page with type-written questions, in which, a.o. I wrote the question: “Who is Orgyen Tenzin Nueden Dorje? I am asking because I received that name in a meditation on January 5th (1999) when I was meditating on limitless compassion?” I also visited the hill of Antamnies, to go for consultation with Tibetan doctor Rinzinla. When I arrived there, a boy of about 14 years old ran quickly from the clinic to the house of Amala and Jigme Khyentse. I had the feeling I recognized that boy and shouted: “Hey, tulku!”, but he ran away.
    Then, somehow I have the feeling they fixed me up (i.e. stimulated me to have contact) with a young English monk that had been at Shechen monastery in Kathmandu (that is at least what he told me) and that had been put on a plane by Shechen Rabjam Rinpoche because they wanted to get rid of him (that is at least what he told me). In the days that followed, I had some very strange experiences that I never had before. Looking back, I would definitely say he had given me hallucinogenic substance(s). That was the first time in my life. My whole life I had guarded myself from taking in such substances (there were several students at the university who would take substances like that at parties and so on) because I simply knew and felt it would have a very negative effect on me. That “monk”(I visited him later in Hilversum to claim back some items that he had stolen from me and at that time he did no longer wear monks’robes and was living with his girl-friend) also told me later that he had escaped from psychiatric hospitals in both the UK and Spain.

    I went back to Dordogne for more teachings. I took teachings with Khenpo Pema Sherab. I clearly remember that it was during those teachings that for the first time in my life I had the experience of being “tired” and also somewhat desperate.
    Later that summer, just after he arrived from France to Dordogne, I told Orgyen Tobkyal Rinpoche about the name I had received “as if falling from the sky”. When I spoke the name, he fell almost off his chair (very unusual for him to be surprised about anything at all).

    That summer, I once again visited Antamnies because I had heard that doctor Tenzin Choedrak was also there. Rinzinla told me to wait in her house. It took a long time, though, that waiting. A door to the room at the right side of the house (viewed from as if standing before it before entering it) was open and I could a number of beautiful objects on display there. I wondered whether doctor Tenzin Choedrak was housed there and also, whether there would be any pictures of Kangyur Rinpoche there, and to kill the time I walked over to that room and entered. I indeed saw a number of beautiful objects there. It turned out that room gave way to a small adjacent room. Just when I looked in that direction (much-used meditation mats were on the floor and many butterlamps were burning there), Yangchenla, the other sister, appeared in the doorway. She smiled enigmatically and I left the room again.

    Weeks later, during full drupchen and in a tent full with people, I was asked “whether I had a good memory”. I said: Most definitely, I have the best memory ever, nobody was ever able to beat me at that, not even the pupil (my friend) who was the best pupil at school (me being the second-best). This seemed to worry lamas like Jigme Khyentse greatly. Looking back, this is strange, because one would expect one’s teachers to be happy with such a quality. They then sent me someone (again in full public) to ask me whether I knew “Shugden”. I said: “When I was in Dharamsala, I picked up a brochure on this subject issued by the Tibetan government in exile. I read that brochure, but it scared me and I did not want have anything to do with it, so I have thrown it away”. The next question was: “Would you say you remember how Shugden looks like?” I said: “No, not really”. Then someone came and showed me a drawing of “Dorje Shugden”. Jigme Khyentse Rinpoche was sitting opposite me then, on a throne in drupchen-arrangement. I had very much confidence in him as a teacher. I looked at the drawing and said: “Ah, so this is Shugden? Well, in that case, I have seen a statue like that at Rinzinla’s”. A big murmur and “oh”and “ah” went through the public. Then that person or someone else said: “But is it not so that the Dalai Lama has advised not to do that practice?” I said: “Yes, that is what I read in that brochure, but I have confidence in Jigme Khyentse and if he does that practice, it is fine with me”and I smiled at him.
    During that drupchen there was a “pumba”with coral-stones studded into it. I found it so familiar that it scared me and when they took it away from the tent, I ran after it, hysterically weeping: “Don’t take that away, it belongs to me”. In fact, I left the tent and followed the pumba until it was taken away by a car. The lamas did not seem to like this (!).
    During that drupchen, also, there was a person in the public with a big white mala around the neck. It scared the hell out of me, because it looked so extremely familiar to me *even though* I had never seen that mala in my whole life, so I ran away from the drupchen tent.

    Some time later Gerard Godet, the big sponsor of that Chanteloube place, [I am so grateful that he does not need to find out about all of this — he is a very good man] took me and another woman for dinner. We chatted about this and that and then he said to me: “That statue that you have seen at Rinzinla’s, I must have been an old one, isn’t it?” I said: “Oh no, it was brandnew and very beautiful, with many colours, and many butterlamps were burning there”.
    During the last day of the drupchen Orgyen Tobkyal did a very strange energy-thing to me. I was prepared carefully. I had sat opposite him and he looked very sweet and so on. It felt as if he tried to make my “soul” rise and leave the body, but it got stuck at the throat or so; he seemed to be very surprised and not happy with this”. Until the moment he and his monks left, even when I was in my caravan, I had this feeling. I thought I was going mad.

    At some point, the tubes with the break-liquid of the cars were broken and I had to bring it to the garage.
    Also Sogyal Rinpoche came to Antamnies, to pay his respects to the deceased Nyoshul Khen. When he passed me when entered the room, I all of a sudden stood up and approached him (I seem to have “clear speech” when around Tibetans) and blurted out: “Please be careful, maybe the breaks of an old Mercedes don’t work anymore”. I was greatly surprised that I had said that and had no idea why I did so. This was all after I had notified him on a piece of paper that I gave to him personally that I had written two new chapters to the book “Hidden teachings of Tibet” by tulku Thondup.

    Later, in autumn, Trulshik Rinpoche came. Every day there was a choice of three objects on display: every day a new set. I strongly had the feeling I recognized those objects and I wrote this in a letter to tulku Pema Wangyal.
    I think once again I was administred drugs without me knowing it because I had a range of strange experiences (looking back, I think: what must Trulshik Rinpoche have thought of me? But later we have made it up). I also recognized a certain small wooden box or small cabinet that Trulshik Rinpoche wanted to show us during an initiation. He was showing it to the public with the idea of opening it and showing it’s contents to the public. I panicked and ran away from the tent because that box or cabinet looked so *extremely* familiar to me and I did not understand how that could be because I had never seen that object before, in this life-time.
    Also, I would correct Trulshik Rinpoche when I thought he would made a mistake with the initiations and texts (even though I did not know hardly any Tibetan I knew exactly when he was not reading the text properly) (I also knew exactly when an object for an initiation was missing or in the wrong place — Please note Trulshik Rinpoche was giving a large series of initiations from a book compiled at the time by Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo (me) and Jamgon Kongtrul). There is even a text on a website of a witness describing this situation.

    Still later, in November, there was a sort of private retreat with tulku Pema Wangyal and a group of students. In that period, I felt as if I was going crazy. Tulku Pema Wangyal at a certain moment came to my room and gave me some pills. He said they would calm me down and also that those pills had been made by Dudjom Rinpoche himself. My blood, however, was almost boiling when I only held one of those pills in my hand: I clearly felt the veins in my wrist bubbling. I held this for a strong protest of my body and I said I did not want to take the pills. They convinced me to take a couple. My memory from Thursday to Saturday has been completely erased. I left that retreat when it was finished and someone took me to the caravan. She gave me number of pills with instructions about how many to take and at which times. Somehow, though, as if by (black) magic, I kept forgetting whether I had already taken the pills or not, so I took pretty many. I usually drink a lot of tea, so maybe one of the things that saved me was drinking a lot of herbal tea that night. I had noticed that at a certain point the jerry-can with water that I keep outside the caravan was replaced by someone with new water, even though we had just filled it. The water seemed somewhat blueish or greenish I think. Somehow I got it in my head to write a letter of goodbye to my parents and a will and I left all my jewelry next to the letter.
    The tea, however, I made with water that I still had inside the caravan.
    I did a meditation. Tulku Pema Wangyal had told me to stay in the caravan for three days. After that, I had an appointment with doctor Rinzinla at Antamnies.
    I swear that during the meditation I saw the “small flies” (one of the signs of dying). But I had to go to the toilet, so I left the caravan. After I had been to the toilet, I fell down on the grass at the side of the caravan.
    I entered again. It seemed as if my heart was not beating anymore and so I decided to do prostrations out of devotion for who I thought was my guru Jigme Khyentse and dedicated the prostrations to him. This seemed to keep my heart beating.
    I felt very strange the next day and I thought: “I might die soon, but I haven’t paid the bill to the camping-site people yet. So I wrote a check. When I left the caravan, I noticed a big circle was drawn in the mud around the whole caravan. I wanted to go by car but could not find the keys to the car. I noticed that on the road that leads from the camping-site there were all types of mysterious drawings (circles with some other stuff) in red paint on the road. It seemed as if I could not pass this “block”. I walked down the other road to bring the check to the people of the camping-site. I noticed my legs were very heavy and that I walked with difficulty. After delivering the check in the mailbox, I walked back to the caravan and decided I want to leave by car. With great difficulty, I took hold of the keys of the car (it was as if someone was trying to take them from my hand) and I took a portrait of Frances of Assisi that I kept in the caravan and placed it on the seat next to the drivers’seat of the car. When I finally sat in the drivers’seat, I noticed the fuel tanks (both petrol and LP gas) were empty. This was very strange, as only the previous day we had filled up both tanks and I had not used the car that night. I nonetheless drove away, taking another path than where the painted symbols were on the road. I soon stranded on the bigger road due to lack of fuel. I stopped a car on the road. The man took me to the garagist that knows me. He gave me a couple of litres of petrol and I somehow went back to the car and put that petrol into the car and then again went to the garagist to fill the petrol tank up completely. I drove around a little bit aimlessly (there are a few things that could be said here, but they are not important for the story) and I finally ended up in Brive-la-Gaillarde where I parked the car at the local McDonalds, where I requested the staff to phone a hospital with the request to send an ambulance and bring me to the hospital.
    Finally, a sort of limousine-taxi came and took me to the hospital in Sarlat-la-Canéda. I want to point out that during that taxi-ride I felt a strong protection from both Sogyal Rinpoche and Dzigar Kongtrul Rinpoche. In fact, it was as if they were right there with me in the car.
    When I came to the (psychiatric) hospital, the doctors pointed out that they were a little bit sick and tired of always receiving so many confused people from the retreats (especially the 3-year retreats) from Chanteloube. They also asked me whether I had been given substances. The doctors there decided to keep me there. I could not go to the toilet for many days (I am pointing this out for farmaceutical/poinson-knowledge purposes). I was escorted back to Holland by two Dutch nurses that took me in a plane from France to Holland.

    A year later, I received a letter from the *lawyer* of Jigme Khyentse. I was surprised that somebody who is called a bodhisattva should need a lawyer and even more so that he thought he needed one in my case. I felt offended and surprised: Had I not total confidence in my teacher? The letter asked me to sign a declaration saying I would not hold anything against them. This surprised and insulted me greatly: How could he think that I could think something bad of him??

    In 2001, I went back in summertime to teachings and drupchen of Chanteloube. Somehow my car (another one) did not work and so I arrived a little late to the drupchen. Jigme Khyentse ignored me completely and I was about to walk out the tent and not come back anymore, but it was Orgyen Tobkyal who made me stay in the tent.

    At a certain point somebody asked me whether I still had some of the pills (supposedly made by Dudjom Rinpoche) that they had given me in November 1999. I said: “Yes, I still have a few.” Tulku Pema Wangyal clearly panicked at this.

    NB recently sent pills to laboratory — most probably was manganese poisoning

    Giulia

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  531. I have met Sogyal Rinpoche quite a number of times and he has always been good and full of respect to me. I know there are lots of stories, but what can I say? : “I wasn’t there”. As for professor Namkhai Norbu’s visit to Lerab Ling: I am grateful, because that visit finally made me decide to get to know that master, NN, that somehow I have always felt a connection to. As for “such and so does not want to have a connection with Sogyal anymore”, it might very well be the way around: maybe Sogyal does not want to have a connection to such and so anymore. Who can tell?
    I have a few other gruesome stories to share with you and will do so here.

    Giulia

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  532. Hi Mary,

    I personally find the way you demonize anyone who has an opinion that isn’t according to your party line a big turn off. It is pretty clear that with 1000s of students, if Rigpa wanted to have a go at spin, they could drown the posts here completely out with the voices of their students. It is pretty clear there is no organized campaign of spin against you, even though you have made it clear there is an organized campaign against SR.

    SO rather than attack the messenger, perhaps you could address the issue. Your posts are used as PRC propaganda, yet you claim to have incredible respect for HH the Dalai Lama. Yet the Dalai Lama clearly has done nothing to distance himself from Sogyal Rinpoche, if anything he has done the opposite. So, people are claiming that posts are used on chinese language sites to denigrate Sogyal Rinpoche and therefore by association the Dalai Lama.

    Since what is alleged by you is inappropriate consensual sexual relations between Sogyal Rinpoche and some of his students. Even if it is true, how to square that with the fact that as a side effect your posts are used as a tool in the propaganda support the brutal murderous suppression of millions of Tibetans? Is that how you show enormous respect for His Holiness?

    Is the virtue of white women is so much more important than the lives of people of color? You defend the xenophobia of the Marrianne article too. Hmmm.

    BTW you could apologize to Sheila for making the claim you never refer to HHDL as “the Dalai”.

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  533. Mary, please keep in mind my wumao comment was directed at Christie. I also didn’t realize you were Pema – wumao commonly use Tibetan names when ripping on Tibetans.

    I am not in anyone’s department. My name is Sheila Shigley, and I live in Madison, WI. I’m happy to give my phone #. My understanding is that Rigpa is Nyingma-affiliated; since my local gompa and teachers are Gelug, I chose that path. I do very, very much admire and respect Nyingma (and the other schools’) teachers and teachings.

    Sogyal Rinpoche has spiked as a topic among wumao; if the timing of your article is an accident, then you and I are yet another example of collateral damage courtesy of Beijing (imagine that!)

    The internet commentator program is real. The job is openly advertised. There is a rag-tag group of individuals around the world doing what we can on our own time to try and counter this tidal wave of state-funded propaganda, but we are overwhelmingly outnumbered. It’s disheartening to run into westerners who help the Chinese government wear Tibetans down this way. (I also loathe propaganda–my nation’s, or anyone else’s.)

    In my town, PRC university students sneak up to Tibetans’ houses and take pictures of families, yards, dogs, cars; schoolkids from my gompa have reported to their parents that a “Chinese man took my picture at recess.” (In MY town. This makes me furious.) The China Consulate in Chicago has a file on every known Tibetan man, woman and child in Madison. These were brandished at a member of my gompa when he sought permission to visit his dad in Tibet. “CHINA!” the woman official yelled, so loudly that a security guard came in, lol. For better or worse, he rebelled and wouldn’t say “China” even after they showed him the files and photos, presumably as some vague threat. His visit was of course denied.

    This issue is no longer “Tibetans'” problem; it’s now crept into our own backyard.

    As for Sogyal Rinpoche, I really feel that the Chinese interference shows clearly that disingenuine accusations have the potential to hurt women.

    Let’s say the man DID, in fact, hurt women, which is far from proven. Wumao have been screaming about Sogyal Rinpoche since March ’08 (imagine that), simultaneously calling the Dalai Lama a Nazi serflord who kept peasants in “dungeons beneath his castle,” and along with Sogyal Rinpoche controls a CIA-funded Zionist conspiracy to install a new world currency and give China back to the Mongols. For many of us battling this freak show for the past 3+ years, at the first mention of Sogyal Rinpoche or the Dalai Lama we instinctively reach for the earplugs.

    There are very clear instructions in the wumao operating manuals (yes, there actual manuals–PDFs are available courtesy of some very brave people in China) telling wumao to, when all else fails, “insert sensational topics to create noise.”

    This very topic would make for a very good article–how frivolous accusations can obscure genuine accusations.

    I do want to ask one question: why, in your Guardian article, did you say the Dalai Lama is constrained by a “taboo” against reporting abuse, when in fact the Dalai Lama is on record instructing students to report any and all abuses?

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  534. Ordering the spin dept to play the China card? Rigpa must be feeling the heat these days. But, if by any utterly remote chance the Sheila and Susan posts are genuine, then we are in the realm of unintended consequences. I have a Free Tibet T-shirt, button badge and banner. I gave friends who have a tower on their house a large Tibetan flag to hoist into full view on appropriate occasions. My bank manager would confirm that I have standing orders donating to 3 pro-Tibetan causes.

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  535. One thing to watch for is what I call the “school of fish” or “obvious memo” effect. One day they’re all blathering on about the evilness of Richard Gere; suddenly, as if on cue, they begin maligning Bjork (or the new Kalon Tripa, or Sogyal Rinpoche, or Geshe Lhundup Sopa),

    Fortunately, best I can tell, they haven’t received any recent emails ordering them to slander my beloved Geshela.

    Watching the watchers, though, has some dubious benefits; occasionally I’ve found out about a China-related news item at least a day before it became news, lol. But it’s hard to watch them spew their vulgarity at someone you know and love. I sometimes wonder what damage they’re doing to themselves; most are quite young (under 30), and it just can’t be healthy to spend your day being so negative, no matter how much you convince yourself it’s for the glory of China.

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  536. Mary may or may not be in cahoots with chinese government sponsered trolls. But all my taiwanese buddhist friends have heard of her because her posts accusing Sogyal Rinpoche used to be amongst the most widely referred to in chinese language propaganda sites. No one believed her posts becuase everyone understood that the PRC was behind it…

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  537. By the way, I have been personally phoned by a Chinese man who is employed to post pro-Chinese-government views (read: anti-Tibetan views) on English language forums. I spoke with him for approximately 15 minutes.

    Those anti-Tibetan views include (daily) vilifying the Dalai Lama, Sogyal Rinpoche, Geshe Lhundup Sopa, Lobsang Sangay, Jamyang Norbu, Lhadon, many other Tibetans, and of course my own mother and sister (not kidding. By name.)

    The man’s name is Claude (he says) and he speaks Cantonese. Works (he says) as a day-trader in NY. Has decent enough conversations with me (the one phone call, and private messages), at the end of which he tacks “but-you-know-Tibet-and-China-can-never-be-separated!” Unfortunately, once back online, he resumes calling me and my family vile names.

    I’m adding this bit for those of you who don’t believe the Chinese internet commentator program is real.

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  538. “Anon, sexual abuse is a crime. False accusation of sexual abuse is also a crime.

    Sogyal Rinpoche has never been convicted of a crime. ”

    I must say I like this point. If he had done terrible things, why NOT any woman – or those claimed MANY victims – haven’t gone to the police (together or separately)? Who are they protecting? Themselves? Isn’t it better to face the problems – also regarding themselves – than hide behind the bushes? Even if scars have been created, the way to heal is to face the truth: the truth about SR, the truth about themselves – why not do it court? It’s more efficient. They would also prevent other women from suffering. It’s also immoral to allow evil happening. (Remark: Mary Finnigan claims to do the ‘dirty job’ for others, but I have no faith in her words – none.)

    If the cleaning lady in NY had the courage to do it with Strauss-Kahn, why not those dozens of women? According to Mary Finnigan SR is also quilty of financial abuse, so I bet the women would be rewarded, if he was found quilty.

    Why nothing is happening? I’m asking myself.

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  539. That would be the part about not going to the apartment, then ;) Failing that, let’s add Step 0.5: reduce drinking to levels which allow you at least moderate cognitive skills.

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  540. Sounds great in theory, but not very practical when you are under the influence(1) and he(2) is as well!
    (1) of the lama
    (2) the drink

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  541. Er, gospel “truth,” lol. And thank you to Dialogue Ireland for facilitating conversations on important matters such as these.

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  542. It is my firm belief that the tabloidification, almost glorification, of tawdry stories is itself a contributing factor to crimes against women, or at least to the difficulty women face in getting true justice for actual crimes.

    Every time we go ape on some guy with nothing but rumors and hearsay, we are increasing the chance that future victims of abuse will be doubted.

    The typical tabloid approach is 1) mention a rumor/allegation, 2) speak at length about the horror of crimes against women, 3) usually throw in something like, “This is not the first time _____ organization/religion has had problems.”

    Look at 2 and 3. Both stages all but scream, “The guy we’re talking about did ALL these things!” Yet neither 2 nor 3 necessarily have anything specifically to do with the guy in 1.

    My least favorite part of this particular story is that where the Dalai Lama is quoted as saying perpetrators of abuse must be exposed–his quote is used as if it’s a direct order to “expose” Sogyal Rinpoche, when in fact it was a general statement saying firmly that abuse must be exposed.

    Sogyal Rinpoche has never been convicted of a crime. Yet anyone who comes here to discuss that small point (it’s only the cornerstone of our democracies, eh?) is accused of “supporting crimes against women.”

    Make no mistake–unsubstantiated allegations hurt women. If you want to go ape on a guy, don’t endanger women by speaking about him as if he’s a proven criminal.

    If you REALLY want to help women, consider counseling them against going to men’s apartments at night; further, counsel them that if the man opens the door wearing no shirt and toting a brew, consider leaving; further, after entering the apartment, consider leaving in 3 minutes rather than three hours; further, if something bad happened, consider going to the police immediately. Further, counsel them against taking ANY of this story as gospel proof until it’s been proven. Because anything else endangers women who have suffered real crimes.

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  543. well, ok . . fair enough

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  544. We are moderating but not in the manner you would like namely, CENSORSHIP.

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  545. Dear Sheila

    Have you examined your conscience today. while you concern

    yourself with punctuation, and accusing others of being chinese

    spies, there are people who have suffered incredibly, as a result of

    their experiences at Ripga,and in doing what you do, you are preventing them from getting the help and support they may need, from others who have gone through similar experiences.

    Perhaps if you read over the other threads on this board, you would see that there are number of concerns raised.

    Unfortunately Dialogue Ireland is no longer moderating this board, or so it seems – as it has been taken off track to such a degree, as to no longer be of use, to anyone except the trolls – certainly not anyone who might have found it useful, of found some benefit or support the

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  546. Anon, sexual abuse is a crime. False accusation of sexual abuse is also a crime.

    Sogyal Rinpoche has never been convicted of a crime.

    I worry about punctuation because English phraseology, spelling and punctuation are one of the chief marks of the Chinese government’s typically-clumsy hand in something. It doesn’t mean everyone who says “The Dalai” is working for China. It does mean they could be, or are likely hanging around people who do.

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  547. Yeah well ,while you worry about punctuation,sogyal is still packing the goonies in…..having just put on a show at the London centre this last weekend.Thats the point isnt it? Despite all the information out there,all the blogs ,the sex scandals documentry, he is still at large manipulating and decieving and abusing I left Rigpa after 10 years
    when i finally woke up to the sickening truth of it all

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  548. However, if it were a mistake, one would have more likely written, “The Dalai advice,” rather than add an apostrophe to what should have felt like an awkward usage, and one you agree you never use.

    Sorry to make such a point out of it, but “The Dalai” is just such a hallmark of mainland linguistic usage.

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  549. Sorry – that was me above

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  550. This is the post I’m referring to – again, I realize it could have been a mistake:

    “Pema, on September 14, 2011 at 10:54 am said:
    The Dalai’s advice? ‘Criticise openly,’ His Holiness declared.”

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  551. I have never referred to His Holiness the Dalai Lama as “the Dalai” and I never would. I hold him personally in the highest possible regard.

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  552. Sorry for the trifecta of posting – Pema, I will add that I haven’t read enough of your posts to make sure the “Dalai” wasn’t a mistake.

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  553. Pema, I hadn’t read your posts earlier, but now I have; I am curious why you referred to him as “The Dalai.”

    In four years of being embroiled in this, I have never heard a single Tibetan person refer to this man as “The Dalai.” That in fact is a distinctly Chinese trait; I believe on a rare occasion I may have seen a Western person following suit, but never a Tibetan.

    I found this forum in passing and my eye was caught by Christie’s telltale lingo, but now I’m assuming you, too, are Chinese (or a Westerner who is currently discussing all this with mainland Chinese to the point of picking up their linguistic habits).

    The Tibet issue is a morasse of unanswered questions, but one thing has become clear to me over time – the Chinese government approach to “forum guiding” has so many telltale marks (red flags if you will) that it’s very hard for them to post without being recognized, over time. I personally believe this is partially due to the playbook; it doesn’t allow individual commentators enough personal leeway to pull off a convincing guise.

    I’m sorry about posting here under three names so far, lol; I just figured out (I think) that the gravatar thing is chosing my Chinese name for me).

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  554. Sheila Shigley is my real English name. My Chinese name is Saulan. I am not anti-China, having been raised there, as my father before me (missionary family). I stumbled onto the “internet commentator” phenomenon when, like many others in March 2008, I took to the internet to watch the coverage of the Lhasa uprising. I am not a member of Rigpa.

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  555. Beware the trolls…

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  556. Pema, Shiela was talking about Christie, not about you. Read her post again, and you will see it is quite clearly not about you.

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  557. Then why don’t you reveal the real stories you seem to know so we can all read in horror? Why keep them to yourself for 3-4 decades?

    I am losing interest on the subject.

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  558. I have been vilified by many different interest groups (as a campaigning journalist this goes with the job description) but its the first time the idea that I am paid by the Chinese government has been thrown into the arena. An infiltrator –moi? I can see the people who know me personally falling about laughing. In fact it seems to me more like the pot calling the kettle black. I’d put money on Sheila being another Rigpa spin creation.

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  559. “Christie” above is what is called by Chinese citizens/netizens “wu mao” or “50 cent.”

    Several years ago, the Chinese government launched a program whereby internet forums were flooded with “internet commentators” – citizens paid to “guide public opinion.” Initially, this program was domestic, but (as you can see on any China-related forum) the “wu mao” commentator phenomenon is worldwide. “Wu mao” or “50 cent” is a nickname derived from the early period of the program, during which “commentators” made approximately 50 cents per (pro-government) post.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party

    You will quickly become familiar with their style of writing if you hang out on a few China forums; when it comes to Tibetan Buddhism, they like to harp on the “lamaism” and “cult” themes. I must confess I don’t know why the government has taken such an interest in Sogyal Rinpoche. Maybe he’s too frank in discussing his views on China.

    Sadly, the Wu Mao phenomenon makes it difficult to have any true discussion about Tibet, Tibetan Buddhism, and other related topics, because (as you can see), once they find a discussion thread they swoop in and start screaming about Lamaism and the evilness of the Dalai Lama etc. etc. ad nauseum.

    I guess we could try to use in on the path, perhaps developing patience and compassion for what must be a difficult job, lol. But it sucks that they spend so much time spouting hate.

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  560. As a western woman raised in China, born to a western father who was also raised in China, I can tell you from personal experience that the first filter you should apply to any “Tibetans are evil!” stories is the following question: is the Chinese government funding the story?

    Secondly, and ironically, my own father was once accused of “sexual harassment” – – – because he counseled several teenaged patients on birth control. These were girls appearing at his facility with their second and sometimes third pregnancies, and no one was offering them any counseling whatsoever on birth control (this was in the 1980s). It’s frightening how easy it is to destroy someone, simply by uttering the phrase “sexual harassment.” He was swiftly cleared, with a character witness queue a mile long; but others aren’t so lucky, even though they’re just as innocent.

    I am a woman and I loathe sexual harassment; however, I do not confuse consensual sex, no matter how misguided, with someone “sexually harassing” me. In fact, those who blame others for their own emotional disappointments and then blame the man who disappointed them for “harassment” actually endanger the lives of real harassment victims, by clouding the issue.

    It is neither illegal nor immoral for adult men and women to have sex, regardless of their respective professions. It may be problematic for employers to have sex with employees, and for teachers to have sex with someone who attends a class they teach; but it’s not immoral.

    We don’t even know whether Sogyal Rinpoche actually had sex with this “Janice Doe.” There was no criminal judgement against the man. We should be very careful in vilifying ANY human being without knowing the truth.

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  561. “Grow up for f”” sake!”

    That is fine parenting language :)

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  562. Jeez H Christ-I have two kids one an adolescent, the other just coming to his teens. They argue and bicker in exaclty the same way as these posts. Its obvious what damage this does as far as appearances are concerned (though, for the thick skinned, I repeat Petty bickering/pedantry/open displays of division amongst enemies only embolden the immoral) I suspect all paries involved here are so called, long standing Buddhists. If this is the case, how come you argue like little kids. Grow up for f”” sake!

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  563. and what is it you’re doing?

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  564. Of course Pema resists anybody who doesn’t agree with her but disagrees openly.

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  565. Er, ‘the bigger picture’. Petty bickering/pedantry/open displays of division amongst enemies only embolden the immoral.DNFTT

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  566. Michele, this is not about “jumping on” anyone and my previous comment (posted as Anonymous) was not a knee-jerk reaction or from being thin-skinned but a considered response from what appears to be a swipe at Pema by Raul. I am basing my comment on this from Raul:
    “BTW- I heard through the grapevine you were kicked out of that group that was meeting to discuss ethics of buddhist teachers, mostly because many felt your ethics were pretty questionable. That really sucks. Sorry to hear about it.”
    To say, “… mostly because many felt your ethics were pretty questionable” on a public forum, and which according to Pema is based on hearsay is quite a hostile and provocative comment, and leaves the impression with me that Raul has some sort of agenda or a personal axe to grind with Pema.
    Also Michele, you kind of want to leave the impression that the language barrier (“English is not my first language either so please dont jump on me.”) is somehow responsible for any misinterpretation. It is clear to me from Raul’s erudite expression, that he has no problem with the English language.

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  567. Divide and Raul eh? Dont forget what this is all about. Sometimes minutiae born of occasional hiccoughs can obscure the bigger picture-innit?

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  568. English is not my first language either so please dont jump on me. It is pretty easy to see where Raul was offering help when he asks for more infos about the ethics group. I dont see where he is sarcastic at all and it seems like some people here are hyper sensitive to say the least. Give the man a break!

    I also read the article and didnt like the tone of it at all. It does seem like a pretty immature and cheap attack. So if it pleases shoot the messanger. But i agree this sort of article only plays on making fun of what is foreign to french. Anyway raul seems sincere and polite to me.

    You guys need a thicker skin.

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  569. Raul, it’s pretty clear that there is a pointed and sarcastic tone towards Pema in your posts. I also fail to see where you are offering help.

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  570. Wow. I too am puzzled. Sorry if my words offended you. I am not sure what you mean by my tone, but maybe I can’t express myself in english so well. I was even offering to help…

    C’est la vie…

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  571. Geez Mary,
    I have to say that if you respond to thoughtful and reasonably sympathetic comments like the one above by refusing to engage, i have to wonder ifyou just got up on the wrong side of bed.

    I dont know what is in the article but based on this exchange, i have to say i find Raul’s thoughts pretty compelling and your behaviour puzzling.

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  572. Sorry Raul but I do not like the tone of your comments so I do not want to take this exchange any further.

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  573. Hi Mary,

    Thanks for the thoughtful reply. It sure is disappointing to hear that effort is barely off the ground and already there are disputes amongst the participants over their personal ethics. EVen you seem to be complaining about members breaking confidentiality and being unable to put buddhist principals aside for the greater good. Sigh..If one wants to find out more about this groups mission and/or help can you give any pointers?

    Back to the article. It is unfortunately true that xenophobic arguments carry weight with many. In france, right wing political parties have done well with it. Now we see even the liberal left can spin it out as well.

    But honestly, I think while there may be some short term repercussions for RIgpa or Sogyal RInpoche, as a person of conscience I really can’t condone this kind of tactic, even if it is successful.

    Since most of the attack can either be leveled against any Tibetan Buddhist group or, once you look past the tone, is not so bad, I don’t see how this helps anything. Do anyone really think it would have been appropriate for Sogyal RInpoche to make more jokes after someone admitted to committing a heinous crime? Or he spent time asking students to rearrange a crooked photo as an example of abuse? Stories of zen masters having their students chop wood until the reach spiritual realization as so much a part of the common lexicon that after the initial passions die down there doesn’t seem to be much there.

    I will bet you anything that lots of other people who may have been sympathetic to your cause will find this article tipping them in the other direction. Of course the general public, just wanting yellow journalistic entertainment, may see it differently, but I wonder what difference that will really make. Other than stirring up racial and ethnic passions. It just clouds the whole issue and it makes the world a little bit more violent and intolerant.

    Best Wishes!

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  574. Hi Raul.,
    Firstly a correction — I caution you against recycling Chinese whispers. I was NOT kicked out of the Sila group. Please check with me before broadcasting unsubstantiated rumours. I resigned for 3 reasons:
    !. After lengthy email debate I failed to persuade 3 members to think outside their Buddhistically correct boxes.
    2.Two members sided with Marion Dapsance when she broke confidentiality with the entire group.
    3. No-one was willing to share the admin load and I definitely did not want to end up doing most of it.
    Although I spearheaded the initiative, I knew that I would have to take a back seat when Sila was set up, in order to avoid a conflict of interests. I remain on good terms with all members — 4 of whom are long standing close friends.
    Re Marianne — i disagree with you totally. IMHO the item is a game changer and may well cause another mass exodus from Rigpa.

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  575. I dunno Mary. I read the article. It borders on xenophobia. It makes fun of things that you would find at any Tibetan Buddhist Monastery. It even makes fun of RIgpa for not allowing smoking and drinking at one of their retreats.

    The stuff it criticizes Sogyal RInpoche about sounds pretty weak (like he ran out of jokes when someone attending the retreat admitted to an act of pedophilia). Given the tone of the article and the obvious immaturity and bias of the reporter, I doubt it will do much for the cause. It might even create a fair amount of sympathy towards Rigpa and Sogyal RInpoche in the Buddhist community as they might appear to be victims of a cheap attack. Especially because the retreat was attended by hundreds, many of whom likely have a different view of what the reporter is reporting on. And especially if the reporter is quoting inaccurately which I’ll bet given the overall laziness of the article is in fact the case.

    BTW- I heard through the grapevine you were kicked out of that group that was meeting to discuss ethics of buddhist teachers, mostly because many felt your ethics were pretty questionable. That really sucks. Sorry to hear about it.

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  576. Sorry not Anonymous above — forgot to fill in fields. Its is Pema.

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  577. The current print edition of the French news magazine Marianne carries a 4 page quality reportage on Lerab Ling, Rigpa and Sogyal. It is dynamite, despite the fact that it makes no mention of assault and only passing reference to sexual abuse. It does however ridicule Sogyal and highlight financial rip off. NB The item is not available on the internet. The Marianne web presence carries different material.

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  578. Maybe you should go to meet SR without a gang and cameras. Just as a person. You used to have a friendship or something like that.

    With your reputation it’s hardly strange that SR refuses to meet you with cameras and gang. Would there be real communication between the two of you – or would you just represent whatever he says in a way that reflects your journalistic style?

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  579. This is my last input here:
    1. The comment re narcissism, as I have already explained, was made by Victoria Barlow, not by me.
    I have far better things to do with my time than to sit through one of Sogyal’s excruciatingly boring “teachings” Not do have any desire to witness him humiliating his students in front of an audience.

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  580. @sockpuppet – Bullshit! I have sent innumerable requests for interviews Sogyal and others at Rigpa. All have been ignored. The producers of In the Name of Enlightenment asked for an interview recently. All they got in response was a disingenuous “statement” that said nothing in a typically long winded manner.

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  581. The comment I read in the Comments section of some news paper article or blog was something like this: “As a child of narcissitic parents I know…” (how a narcissist acts?)

    Comment was refering to as SR being narcissist.

    Problem with SR and narcissism is that he has a LOT of love. He is not empty as narcissists are. Quite many experiences him as emanating deeply touching love. SR also has a great sense of humour, which narcissists don’t have – at least they don’t have it about themselves. SR laughs and jokes about himself too. He also shows self-criticism.

    None of it fits with the demonized image that is created here. In the Rigpa response to the document it was said that SR cares about all the people who has visited him and is saddened if someone feels badly treated.

    Pema, is it too much to ask if you visited him once? It was decades ago you saw him last time.

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  582. I don’t think Rigpa people bother to hate Mary Finnigan. Their apprach is complete different: trying to conversate with her – without response.

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  583. “Intense hatred for decades can’t be normal”
    So how come the Rigpa folk keep blaming MF when its Sogyals behaviour thats at fault; isnt that ‘hatred for decades’? Or is that ‘normal’?

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  584. And that just what Mary has done-only to be brabded a liar and busy body6 by disciples of SR. Mark Dunlop did the same about the FWBO and has been derided in a similar fashion ever since. Does that make their critics right NO-IT MAKES THOSE WHO CONDEMN THEM FOR SPEAKING THE TRUTH HYPOCRITES

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  585. The Dalai’s advice? ‘Criticise openly,’ His Holiness declared. ‘That’s the only way. If there is incontrovertible evidence of wrongdoing, teachers should be confronted with it. They should be allowed to admit their wrongs, make amends, and undergo a rehabilitation process. If a teacher won’t respond, students should publish the situation in a newspaper, not omitting the teacher’s name,” His Holiness said. “The fact that the teacher may have done many other good things should not keep us silent.” Again, in 2001, when answering a similar question, he advised potential converts to check a guru’s qualifications carefully; ‘The best thing is,‘ the Dalai Lama said, ‘whenever exploitation, sexual abuse or money abuse happen, make them public

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  586. “Intense hatred for decades can’t be normal”
    But concealed abuse for decades is..

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  587. “I know exactly what kind of teacher SR is and he can stir things up – it’s part of being a Dzogchen lama. Sometimes some people get stuck in their own emotions too”
    Sometimes so-called lamas get stuck in their students too BUT THAT MEANSTHEY SHOULDNT BE TEACHING BECAUSE DOING THAT IS OUT OF ORDER

    “I’m just questioning how ‘serious’ the accusations are compared to the help he has provided to thousands”

    Yeah, despite the fact that Hitler exterminated 6 million Jews, he nevertheless did wonders for the German economy.

    Air head logic from an obvious lightweight who doesnt fully appreciate the fallout from abuse. if youd had your life destroyed, would you honestly calm yourself by telling yourself ‘At least he did a lot for Buddhism’? Pathetic logic for the narrow minded ostriches who bury theiR heads in the sands of self deception WHEN THE TRUTH HURTS, THE FIRST RESPONSE OFTHE SPIRITUALLY IMMATURE IS TO DENY IT

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  588. @Anonymous. No. You would find some reference to my mother but certainly not that she was narcissistic. That sounds much more like Victoria’s experience.

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  589. If I was a hacker I would find the information that your parents were narcissitic on your computer? I’m not a hacker but thanks for confirming this.

    I did find your text as a comment on a web page created by someone else. Now I can’t find it. The web page was related to SR.

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  590. @Anonymous. I have never written about my parents on the internet. There are 3 possibilities:
    1.You are a hacker and have managed to invade my computer despite the fact that I have a full Norton security package.
    2. You obtained this tittle tattle from a hacker.
    3. You confuse me with Victoria Barlow aka Nicky Skye. Several years ago I posted items on a newsgroup on Victoria’s behalf because at that time she did not have full internet access.
    Techie friends tell me it is extremely difficult to get past a Norton security package, so I suspect #3 is the most likely option — particularly in view of the fact that American Buddha re-cycled Victoria’s comments under my name and refused to revise their copy when I pointed out the error. Am-Budh also claims that I was raped by Sogyal This is untrue. I was one of the lucky ones who escaped his attentions.

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  591. I have read in her own writing that Pema had narcissitic parents. I just can’t find the web page now.

    I know exactly what kind of teacher SR is and he can stir things up – it’s part of being a Dzogchen lama. Sometimes some people get stuck in their own emotions too.

    I’m just questioning how ‘serious’ the accusations are compared to the help he has provided to thousands. How much people have colored their own experience with their fear. I mean the people who have no idea of what has happened and yet they just jump out of the handle claiming to be sure that the accusations are right. Hopefully people could calm down a bit.

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  592. Or Anonymous, it could just be that by and large the accounts of what is occurring within Rigpa are in fact the truth – definitely more probable then your pop-psychology view of the situation. And from my brief and revealing time with Rigpa, what I’m now increasingly seeing and hearing does not surprise me. Slowly but surely things are coming to light to reveal this whole retched and degenerate mess that is Rigpa and Sogyal Rinpoche. Unfortunately what I am also beginning to detect is Tibetan Buddhism being increasingly on-the-nose, with Rigpa and Sogyal Rinpoche right at the heart of this attitude. Those prominent individuals and organisations that choose to associate themselves with him, will further bring themselves and TB into disrepute. By supporting or being seen to support SR and Rigpa, will shape people’s opinions into the future regarding TB.

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  593. People who are traumatised by narcissistic parents always look for some dark enemy after the parents are gone.

    It is possible that demonization of SR is part of such life task: losing narcissistic parents, pouses and so on must be replaced by some other ‘enemy’ to fight against. SR is a very strong person – and he could even frighten people. I wonder if these factors are reasons why it’s easy for some people to fill themselves with hatred against him?

    They seem to lose perspective about him and the help he has provided to many.

    And yes: I’m hinting towards the main catalyst of this whole project. Intense hatred for decades can’t be normal.

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  594. Dominique. Many thanks for adding your insightful comments to this discussion. I wondered if you have emailed Pema who posted an email address above by which to contact her? At the moment an international network of equally concerned individuals is linking up via private emails.
    Our points of view are very similar to yours.

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  595. Angry Budddy is right.SR is one of the main organisers and sponsors of HH Dalai Lama’s conferences.
    In the same way,Rigpa controls and thus silences his “guests”:
    A week end of teachings with Ponlop Einpoche.9-11 sept, author of Rebel Buddha.Where is the rebel?.
    A week end with Namkhay Norbu Rinpoche.No comment.
    the European Buddhist Union whose annual general meeting is hosted by Lerab ling on 22-25 sept 2011 and Buddhist teachers in Europe whose gathering is hosted this year in…Lerab Ling 25-28 sept 2011.
    Note that among the European Buddhist union is to be found Triratna, in other words FWBO.
    The year will end at Christmas with SR himself(maybe), plenty of Dzogchen, booze and pretty girls who might one day cry on their having not seen “the nature of the mind ” but rather an old man sweating on top of them.Beware, you are over 18, so nobody will give a damn about your claims of sexual abuse.You should have known, they will say.”You were privileged to have been Guru Rinpoche’ s consort.He is a “terton”.he knows better than you what’s good for you.It’s you who went for him.You are responsible for it ”
    One man confided in me during 3 year retreat.He had “offered ” his girl friend to SR.It hurt him but his girlfriend was convinced she would thus gain some realisation.Afterwards, she told her boyfriend .”I just felt a big rubber weight pressing on me.”SR was not interested anymore.She fell in depression.Who cares?Not Rigpa.

    .

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  596. HI CHRISTIE!

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  597. Click to access dossier_presse_FR.pdf

    page 11…

    Angry Buddy, is Dalai Lama also now the Demon? Are you Chinese or you just support the Chinese covernment?

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  598. Pema is taking action with some Western lamas, who don’t bother cleaning their own Dharma closets… – it’s easier to bark at other people.

    I was really wondering why the ‘Mimi’ character in the document took the name ‘Mimi’ as her pseudonym? Is it because there is already one long term student called Mimi in Rigpa? People might confuse them? Or does she have identity problems? It’s all a bit confusing.

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  599. Click to access dossier_presse_FR.pdf

    page 11…
    Mary, I’m going to write you a mail next week…

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  600. To all who may be wondering if I am still on the Sogyal case, the answer is YES! I am not contributing to DI or any other forum at the moment. I feel that the time for discussion is over. The time for action has arrived. Angry Buddy and any other person who is interested in helping to deal effectively with Sogyal Lakar please contact me via mary.finnigan at gmail.com

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  601. Yeah, unbelievable…Buddhists with ego. Who wouldve thought? Especially now its here in the West, where spiritual people are normally so……’humble’ Careful Dominique this could be a troll

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  602. So Dominique, what happened? Another (senior?) student was bullying you during a 3 year retreat?

    Sounds very unbelievable.

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  603. When one does not want to see, one can’t see.Denial is a very complex process and I do not wish to go into sterile polemics.
    Abuse exists in Rigpa,perpetrated by SR and enabled by close disciples who cover up the truth.It is an insult not to at least listen to the voices of all those who have been deeply hurt and try to warn others.Through my personal experience, I am trying to talk about the psychological hold and pressure one encounters faced with abuse and the difficulty to perceive and denounce it.Loyalty and terror are two factors which come to mind.I might shock a few people by saying that I consider myself loyal to SR’s family by breaking that law of silence which ultimately maintains him in his suffering.How does one help an alcoolic, an addict?How does one break the sick circle of family sexual abuse? To say it does not happen in Rigpa, in our family is not the answer.We must look behind the carefully controlled image presented to the outside world and investigate for the truth.Without talking big about Buddhism, just as human beings,we can’t stay blind for ,in the end, our own interets;it is much more comfortable to be loved and esteemed in one’s cosy Sangha without making waves and asking questions.I know .I did it.Opening my eyes was excruciating .I learnt the hard way;I hope you won’t.

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  604. Here again? Just becuase you havent seen something, does that mean it doesnt exist? Try the triangulation method mentioned above your post. Cross reference, the Telegraph, the Guardian, the Times, dozens of ex students testimony, a television program and innumerable conversations with lamas outside Sogyals circle. I guess they are all deluded too

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  605. Dominique, why did you made it look like you talked about Rigpa, when you talked about a bully and violence? That kind of stuff doesn’t happen in Rigpa.

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  606. The History of Credibility Attacks Against Former Cult Members

    Conclusion:

    The total rejection of the ‘testimonies’ of former members is not social science, and future generations of scholars will look back on this rejection with incredulity. What should matter in the social sciences is that researchers obtain accurate information under ethical circumstances. Regardless of who provides it, social scientists simply should attempt to verify its content by comparing it to information that others provide or that the researchers obtained in other ways—a process called triangulation. The more that independent sources point to the same facts, the higher the likelihood of the facts being accurate. Rejecting former members’ accounts, therefore, without checking them is more than simply bad social science, it actually is ideology. It is a refusal to question one’s basic assumptions that privileges the controversial groups—the cults— themselves. It privileges these groups by categorically excluding from research the wealth of information that people have who have seen these groups from the inside.

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  607. Dominique
    Whether the person who posted here came from an abusive home is irrelevant to the fact that their denial of your personal experience was despicable on so many levels that I hesitate to begin to list them. The person concerned is obviously lacking in several departments, not least in empathy and openness, two qualities Buddhists are encouraged to develop. They clearly therefore know little, both when it comes to understanding others and when it comes to understanding the Dharma and I would not waste time responding to them if I were you. With respect and understanding
    Another member of your Dharma family

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  608. I did not do the 3 year retreat in Lerab Ling.I have been a practicing Buddhist for 40 years, and wish to share my experiences in dysfunctional Dharma structures.I have also noted that many people who are willing to rationalise the behaviour of an abusive teacher are often from homes where this kind of behaviour took place.They repeat history enabling the guru rather than finding freedom.

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  609. “unless you can see everything are in a position to know everything – how can you discount another persons experience.”
    Or -Until your omniscient, you cant know things? Bit extreme, dont you think?

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  610. It is often the case that when critics validly condemn the perverse activities of charlatans that they are accused of insanity; indeed, it is frequently the first line of defence of the blind faithful.

    I would be the first to admit I was ‘mad’ from the perspective of judging the world as dualistic. As for the normal perameters, I am as sane as the next man ;) However, if Dominique were mad (from either perspective), this would be after several years under the supervision of Sogyal.Is that what genuine Buddhist teachers do? Not in my experience

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  611. How can you know what they’ve been through – or what’s happened

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  612. I agree with you, not everyone in the world is ok.
    I for one am out of here, as I don’t really want to get involved

    but had only wanted to say, unless you can see everything
    are in a position to know everything – how can you discount another
    persons experience.

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  613. I don’t know Dominique, so have no idea whether what she says is true
    but unless you are aware of everything that happens. neither can you.

    and to call someone who you never met mad really says a lot.

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  614. This summer an older woman appeared in Lerab Ling announcing that she was a guest of SR. So, she didn’t pay retreat fees or accomodation. She just landed there expecting to be served.

    She was just another sad mental individual. She told the workers she had come for a recognition ceremony. She was to be recognized as an incarnation of someone. Even HHDL had invited her there.

    People like her sometimes appear out of nowhere. I wonder if one can assume everybody writing here are all fine in the head? I don’t want to offend anyone, but it’s also a fact that not everybody is ‘okay’.

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  615. In Rigpa there has been only one 3 year retreat – and events described by dominique didn’t happen. Far from it. Mad.

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  616. why undermine another person’s experience – perhaps because you have an agenda – do other people’s experiences always have to be the same as yours?

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  617. Funny how a ‘Buddhist’ could write such stuff when one of the first things Buddhism teaches is that we all see different things in relation to the same object. While your friends experience on one 3 year retreat (surprise, there is more than one!) may not be the same as Dominiques, that does not mean her testimony is untrue-or maybe its time you did a 3 year retreat.
    Before doing so though, remember the words of kalu Rinpoche to his 3 year retreatants in the Dordogne :’All this has done is increase your arrogance’.

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  618. dominique, where bhave you been? In a psychiatric institution in China?

    I’m sorry, but your story has nothing to do with Rigpa. I can’t believe my eyes reading your text! My friend has been on the 3 year retreat – and your story is absolutely MAD.

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  619. If someone launches a legal case against Sogyal now, there is a good chance of winning, particularly with all the emerging evidence. That would make the Tibetans take notice

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  620. Business as usual at Lerab Ling in France with 3 days of open doors festivities, animation stalls for children and HH Dalai Lama’s conferences transmitted on plasma screens live from Toulouse. The magazine Elle even promotes that place for unusual holidays.I feel ashamed of being French.A few months ago we had a psychiatrist condemmed to prison for sexually abusing his patients under the cover of “tantric practices”, we had a politician condemned for sexually abusing 3 of his female colleagues under the cover of “reflexotherapy”.Sogyal Rinpoche as been abusing young followers for decades with the complicity of Rigpa organisation amongst which are doctors and therapists .These people one day will have to answer for their denial and cowardice.Everybody can see the young girls ritually fed to a very sick man,people publicly humiliated in seminars.Hardly anybody moves or talks.What has happened to us ,western Buddhists?We are losing all common sense and humanity .We are all responsible for not breaking the silence and chosing to remain in a trance like practice, hypnotised by Buddha lite.Coca does not quench thirst..

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  621. its a credit to you that you have survived all this D and I am so glad to hear that you have been able to differentiate between the actions of these charlatans and the Precious teaching of the Buddha. Sadly, it is a fact that, despite its perfection, the Buddhas teaching is conveyed in a world where it is open to manipulation by evil doers. This has always bee the case and the myth of Shangrila, which forms part of that history, is exactly that: a total myth.

    The good news is that, despite the history of transmission being seemingly inextricably linked with such abuse, the religion itself is still of great value and it is to that we must look if we seek lasting peace and happiness. However, construing the two, message and medium, and suggesting that the way to correct the medium is to destroy the message is a mistaken view, No to Sogyal, no to Tibetan feudalism but thank you Tibet for preserving one of the most important religious traditions alive in the world today.

    Nmay the day soon come where Westerners are sufficiently educate in Dharma AND contemporary social mores to be able to convey the tradition minus its feudalism

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  622. Yes,a lot of people have lost faith after witnessing the big silence surrounding abuse by teachers like Sogyal Rinpoche.His behaviour has not changed since his translating days.On a friend’s wedding day, as SR was translating for the buddhist ceremony, he suggested she should have sex with him that day.
    I managed to keep out because, basically, SR did not fancy me and I met a trustworthy teacher through my husband.This did not prevent me to again be confronted to terrible emotionnal and physical abuse in 3 year retreat, another taboo subject.I had a myth about 3 year retreat, which is also perpetred in Dharma centers because it brings them money through sponsors and spiritual credibility with pseudo western lamas coming out of them..My own pride and low self esteem led me to go to one of them, although my teacher did not in fact see the point.
    There I was confronted with the ultimate in the law of silence, the same injunctions of keeping the samaya with vajra brothers and sisters,ie shut up about the bullying from senior retreatants who established their rules and special favours while the lama was away.
    One of these was the wealthy son of a major benefactor to the center and thus was in fact ruling the retreat.He had already done two three hear retreat and an expert at humiliating and making people crack and leave.He was known as a thug and people , like in all group dynamics,first tried to confront him but later, realising nothing was done against him, either kept to themselves or joined him.
    My speaking up resulted in being beaten up by a retreatant.I pressed charges at the police.I heard several similar cases coming from other retrats.I left after 2 years, feeling a failure , a “bad buddhist” and in a real spiritual crisis with my faith.My teacher was there for me.he had also suffered a lot as a young tulku with a sadistic tutor.If I had not gone to that retreat, I would have still thought I had missed the coach and wasted opportunities.When I read western lamas boasting on “having accomplished seven years in solitary retreat,in traditional 3 year tradition” and their best sellers, I know where the truth lies.
    on the positive level, I benefitted from excellent teachings from the best teachers in the world.Some of them were exasperated by the spirit that reigned and manifested a lot of anger towards the thugs.But once they were gone, we were again subject to the real power of the ones who had the money andso called special tantric initiations that they boasted about. .The argument that prevented any discussion was:”I am only the mirror of your own delusive mind” or “you are a bad buddhist,full of anger” or worse, “it’s your karma”.
    I also had to have psychotherapy to heal, find my voice and recognise that, yes, it is my karma to speak out and denounce cultic abuse I witnessed at Rigpa, FWBO and among individuals who pervert authentic teachings.If I am alive today, I owe it to my teacher who himself, had the courage to go his own way and challenge prejudice and blind faith.

    .

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  623. And you Angry Buddy are absolutely right, IT IS DISGUSTING THAT THE TIBETANS CONTINUE TO SHOW SUPPORT FOR SOGYAL it is clearly alll to do with money and power and for that, they need their arses kicking. But wait a moment, that means, as far as bad behaviour, abuse, feudalism and manipulation of the vulnerable are concerned, everybody, including Christie, is singing from the same hymn sheet here (sorry for the linguistic synchretism) Where I do not agree with Christie is on her solution, which is exactly the same as the Chinese solution to Tibetan feudalism-Destroy the religion. And now what do we have half a century later? A feudal society with the Han Chinese the new lords of the manor, closely followed by other members of the Han master race, with the Tibetan peasantry IN EXACTLY SAME POSITION THEY OCCUPIED BEFORE.This is living proof that Christies theory is a no-goer. What next; end all war by killing everyone on both sides? Solve the world hunger problem by letting everyone starve to death? These ridiculous ideas are what Christie is advocating in her hate filled diatribes. I for one, realise that, while there IS a relationship between Tibetan feudalism and Buddhism, the two are not the same thing and I believe I am sufficiently intelligent to separate the two. Christie’s opinion is that we are all sufficiently stupid to throw out the baby with the bath water, again, like the Chinese, assuming that the poor uneducated peasants arent clever enough to work things out for themselves-soRry but that just WRONG

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  624. I agree: Sogyal, and those who ignore his misdemeanours, are tacitly supporting a situation that is contributing to the demise of Tibetan Buddhism. I feel that this is a result of ignorance (the same reason they lost Tibet) and needs to be challenged. But lets get this straight-the problem is ignorance and feudalism. Therfore, to eradicate the problem we need to stamp out ignorance and feuadalism in the emerging form of Tibetan Buddhism as it is being practiced in the West-the wholesale destruction of the faith is a ridiculous solution and completely misses the point-it perpetuates similarly ignorant and feudalistic ideas rather than combats them. What do we want to do, replace one undemocratic thuggery with another? The cure for a broken nail is not suicide any more than the cure for feudalism and ignorance is not the destruction of Dharma

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  625. Even though I think Christie misses the point with most of what she’s saying and that she probably is a victim of chinese propaganda, I think she is absolutely right when she says that “in 14 years, NOTHING has been said or done by the whole Tibetan lama scene, except to condone his behavior, by continuing to teach with him and to endorse his books, and to basically counteract all his abuse by saying nothing publically and by closing the wagons around him. They are just as culpable by supporting him…”

    I was a member of Rigpa for several years and I can’t describe the hell I’ve been through after what I experienced there and after leaving the Organization. Over the last years, I completely lost my faith, not only in Tibetan Buddhism but in spiritual Leaders in general. I’ve been doing therapy for many years and I struggled so hard trying to find a way out of this, but the way most buddhist Teachers still support Rigpa/Sogyal, even if it’s just by saying nothing or put a Link on their Website or whatever makes me so sick and tired that it’s beyond words!! By now, to me the Dalai Lama is nothing more than a hypocrite…closing his eyes to the abuse he definitely knows about, not answering mails regarding this issue, visiting Lerab Ling and inviting Sogyal to his own teachings (for example in Germany in 2009) or at least tolerating him being invited to his teachings by others…Sorry, but there’s absolutely nothing that can justify all that!
    Even if there are some respectable teachers, I lost my ability to trust them and I can’t describe how devastating that feels. Sogyal has destroyed my life in many many ways and believe me, I tried for years to deal with all that in a positive and probably more constructive way, but I just can’t any longer!

    As someone else wrote on another website: “I think there are serious flaws involved when he (the Dalai Lama) is automatically assumed to be a suitable speaker on the subject of compassion. This observation will undoubtedly shock many people but there is a substantial difference between talking about altruism and compassion, no matter how persuasively or learnedly, and actually being able to practice it and the honest uncompromising morality that it requires…His integrity is now generally a foregone conclusion for people who sincerely want to believe that an example of a wise and truly compassionate holy man exists, especially when he seems so flatteringly keen to acknowledge their particular culture and field of knowledge. I have suggested in a previous thread that this is a naive assumption and might benefit from some detailed research but perhaps It’s important to be specific. I used to be a student of Sogyal Rinpoche: one of those Tibetan lamas the revelation of whose long-term sexual and physical abuse of their female students was the specific subject addressed during a series of conferences with the Dalai Lama. These were convened in Dharamsala at the request of western Buddhist practitioners. Initially the Dalai Lama appeared to be sympathetic, but refused to actually endorse any public statement to that effect. At the final conference however, he actually arranged for Sogyal Rinpoche to make an unscheduled appearance and looked on silently while the lama arrogantly proceeded to harangue the bemused audience for their ‘lack of faith’. (Around this time Sogyal Rinpoche was being sued for sexual abuse by a female student, he then virtually went into hiding and later quietly settled out of court) Fully aware of this, not only did the Dalai Lama take no action, but he subsequently went on to write glowing endorsements for Sogyal Rinpoche’s book and appear at teachings organised by him. These endorsements undoubtedly made many more women vulnerable to this sexual predator.
    In 2008, the Dalai Lama publicly inaugurated Sogyal Rinpoche’s centre in the south of France, where he undoubtedly received a substantial cash ‘offering’. This is more than indifference and hypocrisy, it amounts to an active complicity in the abuse of women in return for cash and prestige.
    Where exactly is the compassion and altruism in this?” !!
    And what about all those who turned to the teachings for help…people who were already wounded and went to Rigpa in search for help? What about all those who lost all their hope because of what has been done to them! The Dalai Lama does not seem to give a shit, otherwise he could not act like he does!

    I’m really afraid of the possibility that absolutely NOTHING will happen, even after the Sex Scandals in Religion Documentary and a possible Book coming out…and the direction the conversation has been going here over the last 50+ comments is probably exactly what Rigpa hopes for…Someone attacked Pema/Mary, saying that she was leading her personal war against Sogyal and that she was angry…THANK GOD she’s angry!! That’s probably the reason why she seems to be the only one who is actually doing something against all this!! And also she’s one of the few people who’s in the position to be able to do that!! We should be grateful to her for what she is doing!! I also think that we all should be much more aggressive in going against Sogyal and everyone supporting him because otherwise nothing will ever change! Maybe we should start bombing the office of the Dalai Lama with mails until they will HAVE to react. Or copy the important texts in this forum and send it to the mayor of every city Rigpa has a center in…Write to the centers that support Sogyal. Write to newspapers and TV Stations…again and again…ask questions until something’s happening…
    In my opinion, Sogyal is playing a big part in the decay of Buddhism that buddhist texts speak about. I know some other people who completely lost their faith and their connection to Buddhism because of all this and I’m pretty sure more will follow.
    I don’t care about that anymore. I will lead my life without following any spiritual tradition and I will do all I can to stop this abuse going on and I hope Pema is still angry enough to keep going until she’s been successfull!!
    That’s it for me. Goodbye (and yes, I’m very angry and I’m going to use it!)

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  626. There is a lot of similarities between sexual abuse experienced inside incestuous families and within institutions such as religious groups.Same denial, self hypnosis of the perfect family or perfect guru from the victim point of view. Same loyalty to the dysfunctional system and law of silence from the other members of family/ religious group.Same threats,seduction and “mise sous emprise”(I don’t know the English term for that).
    It does not mean that all families or religions are the source of abuse but some individuals propagate their perversion under a cover.
    Unfortunately, a lot of people looking for the Dharma come from dysfunctional families and are revictimied by other predators or dysfunctional structures.
    Like Christie,I looked for the root of my being repetedly victimised .In my case, it was only when I reached the age of forty that I “remembered” a very traumatic childhood of sexual abuse which made it clear why I had unconsciously been seeking for a spiritual home,to fall right into Sangharakshita and other abusive teachers.
    Vajrayana or other school, one should examine the teacher very closely and expose him/her to protect other potential victims.My own Tibetan master has no Buddhist center, has never charged any money for teachings,does not sit on a throne and is truly a hidden master.These teachers exist.They are the true holders of Vajrayana.Already in the time of Patrul Rinpoche, it was full of charlatans roaming the country but who remembers their names nowadays?

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  627. Again, you are attacking the remnants of feudalism within Tibetan society, as it manifests in specific current Tibetan Buddhist circles. One finds similar abuse of position arising from a feudalistic system/mindset in the New Kadampa Tradition, For instance. In both cases, the problem lies with the inability of Westerners to discern this and the abusive and manipulative behaviour of the Tibetans concerned.
    The problem lies therefore in cultic behaviour and ignorance, rather than in the faith per se, as should be obvious to anyone with even a modicum of intelligence in relation to these issues. What needs to be rooted out therefore are characters like Sogyal and Kelsang Gyatso, along with the ignorance of the people they abuse.
    Your solution is to destroy the whole faith which, in your eyes, is intent on establishing a 21st serfdom (thank you Xinghua news agency)

    Your response is uneducated, bitter and ridiculous, a running theme throughout your posts. Are you Chinese or not? Your thoughts, some of which might be valid, are more often than not those of Beijing and offer the same solutions-the destruction of religion, which of course is ‘the opium of the peoples’.

    Could you please, at least once, address the issue of cultic behaviour? None of your posts have done so; all you do is rant on about Sogyal et al, and now everybody else, are intent on taking over the world

    PS your own appraisal of me had me laughing out loud “I would guess that you are probably a wealthy benefactor of one of these lama scenes, a “house servant” at the beck and call of some other lama in some other scene” Very funny. Actually, I am big enough and old enough to make my own decisions and am not open to the brainwashing tactics of Tibetans or yourself. Do you honestly think people are as stupid as you suggest? For every idiot who throws themselves at the feet of a slant eyed saviour, there are thousands who see their games in the cold light of day. Thing is, most of them aslo see straight through your bitter and twisted manipulativeness with equal ease

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  628. “The great enemy of the truth, is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived and dishonest – but the myth – persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” John F. Kennedy

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  629. These lamas, after being in the West for over 30 plus years, are INFLEXIBLE. They were inflexible when things were changing in the world around them in the 20th century, and they have proven to be inflexible into the 21st. Why ? Because they truly believe that their nonsense, that has distorted the buddha’s teachings, that they are carrying and spreading now throughout the world, is coming from living incarnate deities, i.e. THEM. This is called a narcissistic delusion and a form of insanity. And that is what we have been ‘deferring’ to and emulating and throwing away our own western values fo.r in a heartbeat. What is scary is that the general population in the west have embraced these ‘icons’ of “wisdom and compassion” UNTHINKINGLY and UNCRITICALLY , like anon and anonymous, and if the situation gets worse for these lamas in Nepal and India, they will be petitioning the U.S. to let thousands more of them into this country, to further colonize us with their primitive mythological theisim at a time when people are scared and frightened and think this bunch will ‘save us” and the PLANET, when, in fact, their mindsets and behavior, over centuries lost them their whole COUNTRY. And can they learn from that? No, everywhere they go, they try and recreate the same feudal theocracy with themselves on those Hidustani thrones, by building more and more monasteries to garner more donatons, to build more monasteries. Name one other thing they have done with their billions that they have collected from the west, other than building more monasteries? Who have they helped? Besides recreating, like a cookie cutter, the same feudal scene over and over whereever they go? You can’t name one charitable think they have done with their billions collected over 30 years, other than build more monasteries. There plan is to create a world wide Tibetan lama Buddhocracy, the new religion for 21st century corporate fascism, that plunges us into 21st c serfdom, and thanks to the denial of all this in the West, like on this so-called cult help site, they may very succeed unless people start seeing the ‘forest for the trees.”

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  630. And you anon and anonymous, are clearly still ‘lock stepped and steeped” in lamaism. What lama group cult are you still in? It’s pervasive in all your threads that you want to keep this conversation on Sogyal as an exception, even though in 14 years, NOTHING has been said or done by the whole Tibetan lama scene, except to condone his behavior, by continuing to teach with him and to endorse his books, and to basically counteract all his abuse by saying nothing publically and by closing the wagons around him. They are just as culpable by supporting him. And you are clearly on this site, to defend a 8th century feudal mindset no matter what they do. What lama cult are you still in that you would spend so much time and effort to make sure that you ‘demonize” anyone that dares crticize feudal lamaism itself that turns people into faithfools , leaving all critical thinking behind? That’s what you are supporting and enabling by your posts that make sure that the focus is never on the root causes. Keep Sogyal being seen as “an exception” and take a whole thread away from people looking at the fundamental issues of what supports and allows Sogyal the predator to carry on, unbashedly. It is this kind of ‘denial’ that allows this to happen, so Sogyal and his followers should give you a medal for your hard work here on his behalf, and those that support the colonization of the west back into the 8th century. Pathetic really that people don’t see how hard you are working to make sure the conversation stays very tame and ineffective. I would guess that you are probably a wealthy benefactor of one of these lama scenes, a “house servant” at the beck and call of some other lama in some other scene, who sees your duty as defending Tibetan lamaism whenever people are starting to ‘wake up’ from being fooled by the whole monkey show that is here, first and foremost to take our money and keep building and building those monasteries to garner more ‘donations” and faithfools , to be at their ‘beck and call.” .

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  631. Again, Christie uses the excuse of the sexist and feudalist behavior of a single official from the NBF, who was speaking non-representatively and then used his influence to coerce those uneducated in the monastic codes into signing a statement, to attack Sogyal (what he has to do with this, I do not know) and of course, implicitly, the ‘Lamaists’,

    In fact, for a Buddhist nun to lose her robes as a result of penetrative sex, this must occur willingly. Since rape is by nature against the wishes of the victim, this act did not constitute a violation of the nuns vows and she has not been expelled.

    So she has not been expelled and the Nepalese Buddhist establishment has corrected the totally outrageous behaviour of what is clearly a renegade official. The misdemeanor then is twofold, the rape and the reprehensible non representative statement of an official, and in one instance has been rectified. buddhism itself played no role in the debacle other than via the application of its reasoning in correcting it

    Thus. it was the so-called lamaists themselves who pointed out the wrongdoing here and corrected it. Since the Nepal Buddhist Federation have little to do with how Sogyal conducts himself, I fail to see the connection.

    In the West, we do not have representative body for Buddhists. thankfully However, we are sufficiently intelligent to vote with our feet without being conned into the anti religious fervor which has been sweeping across the Occident since the time of the enlightenment .

    your scraping the barrel with these tactics Christie, really sick to conflate rape and sexism with Buddhism, as you are attempting to do.

    I suspect you have invested all of your faith in some teacher (Sogyal?) and been abused or disappointed in some other way. hell hath no fury……….Seek help;you need help.

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  632. Sogyal “protected” by his lama cronies, but a nun gang-raped is shunned and said to be ‘unfit” to continue her vows.

    More absurdity from this feudal theocracy:

    KATHMANDU: A 21-year-old Buddhist nun from Nepal, who was said to have “lost” her religion and become unfit to remain a nun after being gangraped, is now likely to be re-admitted to her nunnery, thanks to a growing outrage worldwide. The young woman, who is now battling for her sanity in a hospital in Kathmandu, can return to the Karma Samtenling Nunnery at Pharping after she recovers and is discharged from the hospital, an authoritative Buddhist body in Nepal said.
    The Nepal Buddhist Federation distanced itself from a statement signed by over a dozen organisations, including one of its own officials, that had said the attack on the woman, while to be condemned, however had made her lose her “sheel” – religion as well as vows taken as a nun. It said the official’s stand that the nun had become a “flawed vessel” was his personal view and not the official stand of the Federation

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  633. Christie makes a fundamental mistake throughout her comments of confusing abuses arising out of Tibetan feudalism with Tibetan Buddhist practice. There has probably always been abuse in monasteries, irregardless of faith/denomination, and within feudal societies, there has also been a domination of the peasantry by the aristocracy. That certainly happened in Tibet and , in the case of charlatans like Sogyal, who treats his followers like peasants and abuses the vulnerable, these malpractices are being imported. However, to advocate the destruction of Tibetan Buddhism as a solution COMPLETELY MISSES THE POINT. What we need to eradicate is the abuse as it occurs within feudal, monastic systems, not a whole faith. Such a logic is the of the same simplistic logic as that which advocates the destruction of the earht because it has mice.

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  634. Very strange that this is supposed to be a site that addresses the abuse of women by Sogyal, but refuses to look at the fundamental causes.
    We are very happy for you to look at the roots, and we do not have problem of you doing this.
    Where you are confusing things is this site is about cultism which includes the issue you raise, but this particular thread is about Sogyal’s abuse.
    We have now got your point we have heard it loud and clear.
    When framing a budget it is not the role of a finance minister to reform the whole economic system. We are not a site to investigate patriarchy and your particular views on Tibetan Buddhism, but you are absolutely free to make comments on the THREAD which is pertinent to this particular issue.
    You are contributing to the abuse indirectly by refusing to look at it.
    If we do not agree with your interpretation of our own site which is giving victims and others the opportunity to discuss issues concerning abuse, we are at it as well.
    give us a break, and take out the violins!

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  635. No, you don’t get it. I don’t know why someone concerned about helping people in cults, cannot see the pattern here. Who are you moderating this site, that you are not interested in the ‘systemic abuse” of women in a patriarchal, theocracy of lamaism? Which is the root cause of why nothing is done about this? Bhutan and Tibet arejoined at the hip through their diety worship of lamas. There whole country.
    Bhutanese speak both Tibetan and Bhutanese. Their lama system which is the ‘religion’ of both countries are locked in a feudal mindset.

    You seem to have some agenda to keep this conversation from going to the ‘root problem” endemic in a mysogynistic , patriarchal abusive culture.

    Sogyal Rinpoche is a product of misogyny, and the cult of lamaism that surrounds and protects him. Both the enablers, western tibetophiles, and the other lamas themselves, ‘circled the wagon’ around him. It has been almost two decades since the first publications of abuse by Sogyal came out. Two decades later their is a wilful refusal to look at the misogyny that supports this terrible treatment of women.

    Just as the Catholic Chuch and its patriarchal , priestly closed system that protected its own had to be penetrated to get any help for the victims of abuse, the same is true of Tibetan Lamaism.

    Very odd that you cannot make this obvious leap. This is not off topic, it is the ROOT CAUSE of the abuse, this patriarchal closed system, and it is the root cause of why nothing can be done about it.

    You are contributing to the abuse indirectly by refusing to look at it.

    Very strange that this is supposed to be a site that addresses the abuse of women by Sogyal, but refuses to look at the fundamental causes.

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  636. You are off on a tangent again. This thread is about Rigpa and specifically sogyal Rimpoche. You do not get it, but we leave your material as illustrative of the processes of cultism.

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  637. So much for Bhutan and Tibet, whose “culture” IS Tibetan Lamaism, and the myth of Tibetan nonviolence:

    USA Today article exposes shocking statistics

    :Wife-beating study shocks Buddhist Bhutan’s ‘happiness’ chief”

    “The survey by Bhutan’s National Statistics Bureau found that roughly 70% of women say they deserved beating if they neglect children, argue with their partners, refuse sex or burn dinner, reported the Business Bhutan newspaper”.

    Mahayana Buddhism is the state religion of Bhutan, where a vast majority of the 700,000 citizens are Buddhist.

    “Covering 15,000 households, the Bhutan Multiple Indicator Survey also found that more than one in four women believe HIV/AIDS is transmitted supernaturally; one in four children do not attend school and one in five children are involved in child labor”

    You can take people out of the middle ages, but you can’t take the middle ages out of the people if they are still stuck there.

    Sogyal Rinpoche is doing what comes naturally in ol Tibet and in current Bhutan, both lamaist countries. .

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  638. What so you mean ‘Tibetan Lamaism’? That is just a label-there is no institution called ‘Tibetan Lamaism’-There is no representative body for Tibetan Buddhism. The Dalai Lama is not the head of Tibetan Buddhism, he is not even the head of the individual sect that he is a member of and, even within that sect, there are those who follow his edicts and those who oppose them. There are numerous different sects and sub sects within Tibetan Buddhism and the conduct in one monastery of one sub sect is little or nothing to do with what goes on in other monasteries. SO, what do you mean when you attack :Lamaism’ Who runs this supposed cult and who is its head?Again, if abuse occurs in these monasteries, where does this originate? Is it part of doctrine or does it originate in the conduct of individuals. if it is part of the doctrine, where is this written and if it is down to individuals, where does it say that these individuals are representative of their tradition?
    Nobody is saying that abuse is right, we all want it to stop wherever and however it takes place. However, targeting imaginary enemies does nothing to solve the problem. It is the perpetrators of abuse who must be outed and corrected. You are simply advocating burning down all the monasteries. This is not much from the gay fundamentalism of the FWBO which claims, that because much abuse takes place in the family, the family is ‘the enemy to be destroyed’ In short, your language is straight out of a cult and shows no insight into the intricacies of these complex issues

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  639. The page you link to, alongside carrying significant amounts of CHinese propaganda, contains some of the most ridiculous fantasy I have ever come across-even there, posters point out the mistake of thinking abuse is the same as religion-dont you read this stuff before you link to it? I get the feeling you are actually quite poorly=Thats not an ad hom attack BTW-just a suggestion that you seek treatment or counselling

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  640. .
    This site is to discuss abuse, not Tibetan ‘Lamaism’. Abuse is no more part of Tibetan Buddhist doctrine than it is part of traditional Catholic dogma. You are attempting to construe the two as one, to portray the abuse as being at the very heart of the religious tradition whereas, like all religious traditions, it has followers who exhibit weaknesses but those weaknesses are on the part of those followers, not the religion itself.

    THINK Adherents are not the faith, a follower of Christ is not the same thing as ‘Christianity’

    As has been said before, this site is for the discussion of abuse in any cultic context; it is not a place where the merits or otherwise of any given religious tradition are up for debate. Please stop trying to hijack DIs pages for the sake of your own personal anti relIgious hate agenda.

    If you wish to discuss abuse, please feel free to do so but please credit other posters with sufficient intelligence not to be taken in by your personal, atheistic propaganda

    Particularly distasteful is your decision to post website addresses where those sites have been set up by anti Dalai Lama cult members (NKT) attempting to trick the weak and ignorant into supporting your ill considered agenda. Either discuss abuse without blaming the whole of the religious tradition it occurs within or stop posting. What next, advocate the destruction of humanity because ‘the human race’ created war?

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  641. http://thedalailamaisapoliticalfraud.blogspot.com/2008/03/dalai-lama-is-political-fraud-1.html

    Rampant Sexual Abuse and Pedophilia in monasteries.

    One has to take the aerial view on the sexual abuse that is endemic in Tibet lama monasteries to even begin to address the sexual abuse of Sogyal Rinpoche.

    Sexual predators were often abused themselves or have grown up in a cultural atmosphere that condones pedophilia and sexual abuse.

    If you continue to talk about ‘exceptions” on this site you will be missing the forest for the trees , over and over.

    To say that one is ‘off the topic’ by discussing ‘Tibetan lamaism’ shows an inability to take the aerial view on this, and look at the ‘root causes’ of sexual abuse in what is the cult of lamaism. See June Campbell’s discussion above as well as the rampant sexual abuse in these so-called ‘holy monasteries.”

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  642. Lama sex abuse”
    “Instead of discussing the main issue: , which is this is a feudal theocracy of deity worship modelled on the hidustani priestly brahminism that coopted buddhism in India and recreated the caste system that the buddha tried to end.”
    If you want to discuss this topic we would suggest you do so on a site that addresses what Buddhism is. This is a site that addresses cultism and this context Lama sex abuse!
    You are totally off topic, so my suggestion to contributors is to let the fire die out do not put any further coals on it. If he addresses the topic of this thread then reply otherwise hold your fire. We have to use a tennis analogy racket abuse!

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  643. All cultists attack the person criticizing their cherished projections, instead of discussing the main issue: , which is this is a feudal theocracy of deity worship modelled on the hidustani priestly brahminism that coopted buddhism in India and recreated the caste system that the buddha tried to end.

    As long as that is accepted and as long as people are unwilling to do the research that might implode their cherished beliefs in Tibetan lamaism , and only attack personally those that criticize THE FUNDAMENTAL premises of this deity worshipping cult of priestly brahminism that is based on a fundamental ‘master slave’ mentality of ‘superior beings’ incarnate on those thrones, then nothing, absolutely nothing will change regarding the behaviors of the priestly caste.

    The venom and personal attacks of anon and anonymous, the typical ‘change of focus’ upon the messenger instead of dealing with the message, ( I count about 50 posts attacking and analysing me instead of dealing with the issues) that reflect their emotional investment in making sure that no one on this site can discuss the issues of how a feudal, patriarchial, mysogynistic theocracy that continues to believe they are ‘above human causes and conditions” and don’t have to even acknowledge the pathological behaviors of ‘one of their own, ‘ since this would be ‘beneath living gods” then obviously there is no point in discussing this further. It is useless to discuss it with ‘true believers’ in the Shangri lai version of Tibetan Lamaism. As long as that is true, than people will continue to be abused without any recourse. Until we as westerners can end this ‘romance’ with Tibetan lamaism pretending to ourselves that this is somehow a sacrosanct realm with ‘enlightened’ beings, we cannot discuss this with any objectivity.

    I know that there are Tibetan in Exile trolls, who come on these sites to attack those that veer outside the acceptable boundaries of criticism, and their western tibetan buddhist fanatics , who have given up their whole adult lives to this cult of lamaism and cannot entertain for a second that they have been deluded for all these years, with little understanding and willful ignorance of the actual culture and history of what they have uncritically embraced.

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  644. “They can’t defend lamaism, so they attack those that are critical of it.”

    One might just as easily argue that you are attacking Buddhists because your own position is indefensible. Its an eternal loop which can never conclude

    As for advising people to read Bachelors book, no doubt you would advise people to read Luther for an unbiased analysis of Catholicism. Bachelor is a ‘Buddhist’ who denies karma and rebirth, which is akin to a Christian who denies the existence of God and salvation. Unable to extricate himself from the contradictions of his own world view and submit to the Buddhist faith he espoused in his youth, he includes the name of Buddhism in his book to sell copies with his, oh so daring, controversial views. Ridiculous-without karma and rebirth, the whole of the Buddhist path is without meaning-why would Buddhists ever want to read such nonsense, written by an uneducated auto didact who has abandoned his faith for the sake of feeling comfortable and a quiet life in the south of France.

    The idea behind faiths is to mould the mind into their image, not to mould them into the shape your ego chooses, as Bachelor has done-clearly, you too have not had the humility to do this, as is apparent from the immense hubris each of your posts demonstrate.

    .

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  645. “Thank you Mary Finnegan for being a dogged pursuer of the ‘truth’ regarding the corruption in Tibetan lamaism.”

    As ever Christie, you miss the point Finnegan is a practicing Tibetan Buddhist, with a great deal of respect for all the genuine Tibetan teachers out there. She is against cultic abuse rather than Tibetan Buddhism,

    You on the other hand seem quite incapable of distinguishing one from the other. Either youve been burned by a particular teacher or burned by the bug of Chimese propaganda (we will never know since, apart from your criticisms, you have explained nothing as to why you feel the way you do.)

    The point is, you are clearly incapable of distinguishing between the acts of certain individuals and the whole of Tibetan Buddhism. Yet, while it is completely appropriate to construe say, Hitler with Nazism, it is a ridiculous to conclude, on the basis of your experience of one facet of the Western face of one particular form of Buddhism, that the whole tradition is corrupt.

    You may delude yourself that you are with the like minded here, or that others who condemn Sogyals behaviour but continue to have faith in Tibetan Buddhism are simple minded followers of ‘turds in robes’ but the reality is that most of the posters here are sufficiently intelligent to think for themselves and form their own opinions, based on their own experience, rather than being influenced by hate filled propaganda or condemnations born clearly from a psychologically imbalanced condition such as that which haunts you.

    The best thing you could do, if you want to enjoy life ever is tp first look for one and drop this hate campaign against Tibetan Buddhism-after all, while some of your thoughts might be valid, you are sharing the bed with Maoists and Xinhua in holding your extreme views. This combined with the extremity of your position will ensure that you will remain ina minority of one for the foreseeable future (unless you start your own cult)

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  646. For an excellent book on one person’s journey ‘in and out of lamaism’ and the discovery of “what the buddha really taught.” I suggest Stephen Batchelor’s latest book :

    “Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist.” Very helpful for those in the process of de-cultification from Tibetan lamaism.

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  647. By the way, I bet the Tibetan translation for a ‘turd in robes’ is much much worse than a little scatology.

    How pathetic that those who are ‘defending these lamas and buddhism” come out with their moralizing theistic fundamentalism , proving that this is a cult following, using cult tactics against those that are critical of the cult of lamaism. They can’t defend lamaism, so they attack those that are critical of it. .

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  648. interesting, Dzigar Kontrul Rinpoche and Dzongsar Rinpoche’s scheduled teachings at Rigpa have been removed. Even the old calendar of their scheduled teachings at Rigpa link is broken. So those two are clearly removing themselves from association with him. Not exactly a statement from them condemning his behavior, (these lamas are not able due to their centuries of conditioning to be ‘direct’ about anything) but it is clear they don’t want to be associated with him. Obviously it is no longer ‘lucrative’ for them to do so.

    Also, Spirit Rock has NO Tibetan Lamas on their ‘visiting teachers’ list anymore. Tsoknyi Rinpoche was their ‘prominent’ so-called westernized lama and this was a great vehicle for him to attract western psychology types to Tibetan lamaism where they lost their intelligence and critical thinking skills in about 12 months or so once in the ‘cult of lamaism.’

    So this latest ‘outing’ of predator Sogyal is having some effect in the Tibetan lama world, and in the Western Buddhist world.

    Thank you Mary Finnegan for being a dogged pursuer of the ‘truth’ regarding the corruption in Tibetan lamaism.

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  649. ‘Junk’? Do you honestly think that all the publicity around Sogyal would have happened without this JUNK? Certain individuals have campaigned for years to expose Sogyal and yet they produced almost NOTHING. Within a short period of time of DI publishing their briefing document on Sogyal and the subsequent, and related appearance of an article in the Irish Sunday Times, much has come to pass-Perhaps if you summarised the content of the criticisms above, rather than slagging off DI, a similar productive phase might ensue. DONT FADE

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  650. Then if that is too much for you to research, you write up a post and we will put it up as a new thread. This is not a Buddhist discussion site, but about Cultism in all its aspects. If that is your focus we will publish it and then you can address the issues you think need to be looked at. Remember others might call your views junk, so let us keep pejorative views of others out of this.

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  651. As I said: I accept your rules..but the bulk on these pages does prevent going back to see what was said…it’s just a load of junk most of it.

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  652. Perhaps you would like to pick out what you consider to be the most relevant pieces of information/ideas etc and put them together as one piece for posting??

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  653. I don’t have a problem with swear words, they can sometimes accentuate what you want to say. It seems quite antiquated to me and at an odds with free speech. I do however, accept what Madhair says, and understand your position. It may not be his world but it is his site. I think this site would be more user-friendly were there some moderation, and also more readable. I tend to scroll over posts by Bella and Christie..but I get that you find them fascinating examples of cultish behaviour or whatever. It’s a whole other discussion. I accept your rules..but the bulk on these pages does prevent going back to see what was said…it’s just a load of junk most of it. One person dominating never seems a good way-whether in a meeting or online. But I appreciate your points of view. Over and out!

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  654. Anonymous

    You said “You either moderate it all or moderate none of it.”

    I quoted “If youre not with us, youre against us” so as to point to the fallacy of occupying the either/or, all/nothing position.

    I had hoped to show that the Middle way was the appropriate manner in whihc to deal with things. i believe Madhairs response demonstrates what I mean.
    B**t wishes;)

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  655. Ok, thanks for explaining your policy. Fair enough.

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  656. Some points regarding the moderation of this blog:

    1) This is a volunteer operated site.

    Having a series of moderation policies and ideals is one thing, but you must remember that such policies are being implemented by volunteers. I myself was completely unavailable all of yesterday and most of today to do needed moderation. It has happened before and it will happen again. Delays in moderation do, and will, happen. Please remember that.

    2) We try to err on the side of allowing comments.

    If this was a perfect world (for ‘a perfect’ read ‘my’) any and all comments would be allowed, regardless of how offensive they were. Alas, this world is neither perfect nor mine and a certain amount of sanitation is needed in order to keep this blog reader-friendly.

    However, we have chosen quite a high bar in order for comments to be removed. This was a deliberate choice as we feel it is better to allow discussion where possible even when there is risk of offense. The issues discussed on this blog can elicit strong feelings and emotions, and we feel that it should be expected (even if not preferable) that such will filter their way into comments. Removing such, in our opinion, carries the risk of harming the exchange of ideas in this forum.

    While a comment such as “turds in robes” is offensive and several shades of wrong, does its removal really help matters? It is far better to hoist folks by their own words, being clear for all to see, than to call for the cleaners.

    3) Our moderation policy can sometimes allow us a glimpse into rare areas.

    Other forums, such as Rick Ross, ESMB, etc, take a much firmer approach to moderation. This can have the downside of completely sanitising a discussion. We feel that the loss of robust, and even contentious, debate is too high a price to pay in these instances.

    As a result of our moderation policy this blog has given rise to rare glimpses into some aspects of cultism, particularly the inability to tolerate any and all criticism about a given group, that are not often seen. Some commenters have done more to discredit their own position than anything said by others, and have offered a rare insight into some of the dynamics involved in these situations.

    In conclusion

    We’re not perfect. We just seem to think that the occasional dodgy comment is a fair price to pay for granting free speech to all users of this blog, regardless of what views they do or do not hold.

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  657. anon, it seems you missed the point I was making as you said: “Lets stick to condemnation of immoral behaviour here, rather than simply badmouthing those with whose actions we disagree.”

    Never mind, I think DI grasped it. Not sure why you chose to quote Bush perhaps you could elucidate?

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  658. “If youre not with us, youre against us”

    George W Bush

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  659. The only reason I used abusive language was to make my point…it seems mad to me that you will censor swear words, but allow utterly offensive descriptions of people to go unchecked. Point made. You either moderate it all or moderate none of it.

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  660. We will now leave it in to make a point on this occasion. Our moderating is not about censoring comments, even if we do not like them. Removing your use of expletives, would not have any benefit as it would lead to a proliferation of graffiti. We do not like the use of ‘turds in robes’ but will not remove it. we would rather you used your literary gifts to unpack this use of language, not by using more abusive language to make your point.

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  661. I personally find the use of expletives distasteful, hence its inclusion in the list of 10 non virtues (harsh speech) and would prefer it if the moderator would obliterate the offending phrases. However, you r point about there being ‘no difference between calling lamas ‘turds in robes’ to the Nazi’s calling the Jews ‘vermin’’, is certainly valid.Lets stick to condemnation of immoral behaviour here, rather than simply badmouthing those with whose actions we disagree.
    Moderation is a difficult job and, AFAICS, DI try their best to make a good job of it. I would also point out that the Christies and bellabs of this world demonstrate their own shortcomings whenever they open their mouths or commit words to paper. Here, for instance, we have learned that intense hatred, be it towards the perpetrators of abuse, their supporters, or opponents is meaningless. Their comments implicitly demonstrate the need for calm and measured rationality when dealing with such issues. Foul mouthed attacks, hatred of a faith, ad hominem attacks against of either critics or abusers have all been shown to be of little value here, and all by virtue of allowing Christie, bellab and indeed the above poster to have their say. Thank you DI for doing your best in a difficult situation

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  662. As I stated above:

    “Christie certainly has a potty mouth, for all his expertise in ‘lamaism’. If s/he swore it would be edited, but apparently calling someone a ‘turd in robes’ is acceptable here. Apart from anything else, it degrades her/his argument.”

    I see no difference between calling lamas ‘turds in robes’ to the Nazi’s calling the Jews ‘vermin’. This seemingly is acceptable to the moderator here. Let it be known I used the word * to make a point. * was edited out. Nice work, moderator.

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  663. Ha ha ha, so it’s ok to say turds in robes but not ok to see *. Good moderation! The reason I wrote * was to see if it would be deleted. So much for your free speech. *. *.

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  664. Christ on a bike, no need to shout!

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  665. STRANGE HOW CHRISTIE HAS NOT JUSTIFIED HER PERSPECTIVE BY EXPLAINING HER OWN EXPERIENCE-IS HER BEHAVIOUR ‘LEARNED’? IS SHE SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN BRAINWASHED POLIITICALLY?IS HER PERSPECTIVE A MANIFESTATION OF ‘THE PARTY LINE’? NOT RESPONDING TO THE REQUEST TO EXPALIN HER POSITION INDICATES SHE HAS SOMETHING TO HIDE

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  666. Well. well, well, * hell. That Christie is full of *.

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  667. Wow, somebody got burned bad! What happened? Do tell. I mean, the thing is, Buddhism is a genuine faith that, when practiced correctly, brings results of love and wisdom-you seem to say this back in your early posts. So what went wrong in your case? Or are you Chinese as other posts suggest? You certainly seem to talk the Chinese propaganda talk. So please, share with us why you feel so bitter; what went wrong in your case? maybe that would help people understand why you feel the way you do

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  668. Here they all are on Vajra TV together: The Sogyal MASTER FEATURED with all the usual suspects above.

    .http://vajratv.com/blog/audience-with-sogyal-rinpoche

    They have banded together to form a group lama kleptocracy.

    NOw they wont have to even see people in person, they can just fundraise like televangalists and charge for their programs by credit card. .

    At least that will be safer for female students .

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  669. Not to mention the hate filled vitriol to all associated with ‘lamaism’. Strange, to be condemned because you want to highlight abuse in a religion but arent interested in the complete destruction of the whole faith. That, along with anti Tibetan rhetoric makes me think Christie is from mainland China. The sentiments expressed are exactly what one would expect from someone brainwashed by Chinese propaganda )even down to border region Tibetans being more acceptable)

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  670. Christie certainly has a potty mouth, for all his expertise in ‘lamaism’. If s/he swore it would be edited, but apparently calling someone a ‘turd in robes’ is acceptable here. Apart from anything else, it degrades her/his argument.

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  671. “Out in Kham and Amdo, (away from political Tibet) they still had some freedoms, and they knew a “turd in robes” like Sogyal , when they saw one, and they would have probably killed him.”

    Ur, Kham is in Eastern Tibet. Most of the lamas condemned for associating with Sogyal are from…..Eastern Tibet???

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  672. Christie is Chinese

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  673. “Otherwise , this is all just blabbery and victimhood on this site. Useless, in fact worse than useless because it diverts all passion and energy that could be doing something about it”

    Other than posting vitriolic hate filled slander here (in duplicate), what are you doing about it?.What exactly is your plan of action?

    As for the history and philosophy lessons, thanks but no thanks.

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  674. Thank you for your advice

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  675. http://www.rigpa.org/en/about-rigpa/forthcoming-events.htm

    Here above they all are surrounding Sogyal, and teaching with him this summer, Right after the film documentary was released, You really can’t continue to believe that this is just an accident? Can you?

    Tsokyi Rinpoche, (Mingyur’s Brother); Taught together withSogyal in June in States, with Goleman and Sharon Salzberg at Garrison Institute in New York.

    Dzongsar Rinpoche (Mr East meets West) The film cross gender lama.

    Dzigar Kontrol Rinpoche, another “westernized ” lama. Very traditional . But paints pictures and hopes to be seen as real kool.

    Ponlop Rinpoche, another Mr. Western Tibetan Lama, wrote Rebel Buddha, fairly popular in west,

    even Namkhai Norbu. Teaching at Sogyal ‘s Retreat Center.

    If you still think this is an accident, then you are still in the Cult of lamaism, and will believe anything.

    These are all the lamas, the most popular in the west. Doesn’t matter , they are still living in the 14 c and they will tolerate NO criticism or questions about themselves or their behavior, because they believe they are “outside the law of cause and effect.” Even Catholic priests, or Imams don’t have this level of arrogance.

    They are delusional and so are we if we continue to protect them and let them get away with this behavior. Both the abuse and the enabling of the abuse.

    Otherwise , this is all just blabbery and victimhood on this site. Useless, in fact worse than useless because it diverts all passion and energy that could be doing something about it.

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  676. Actually, the Shugden is the least interesting to me, because they are still into deity worship. Very primitive and animistic really. I mean interesting, but not interesting.
    its just more “magical thinking” theism, instead of appreciating the ordinary magic all around us. Being present completely, with our intelligence intact. That is our human birth, precious “as it is.”

    But they have some great documentation Shugden and have researchers, not propandists only like these lamas, It wears thin, and soon the west will be very sick of Tibetan lamas.

    Interesting that you would pick that out, still glued to that lamaism and sect infighting and primitive nationalism, its like honey to the bees for you Tibetans, in service to your imaginary Tibet that never was, willing to die for it, something the Dalai Lama made up in cahoots with westerners.

    Do you think real Tibetans were in this politically correct, nicey pie realm? No that is a western invention.

    Out in Kham and Amdo, (away from political Tibet) they still had some freedoms, and they knew a “turd in robes” like Sogyal , when they saw one, and they would have probably killed him. The “aristocratic hillbilly lamas” controlled the lamas, as much as the lamas controlled them. They depended on each other to enserf and enslave everyone else. Keeping those “prayer wheels turning with the masses eyes on a better karma” instead of rising up in rebellion.

    Sort of like where we are headed in the west now, That’s why those kleptocrats just LOVE the Dalai Lama, keeping the masses asleep.

    DON’T FORGET, EVERY MAJOR WESTERN LAMA GATHERED AROUND SOGYAL “THE PRECIOUS ONE” AND PROTECTED HIM, THEY ARE ALL TEACHING AT HIS RIGPA CENTER IN FRANCE THIS SUMMER, OR WILL BE BEFORE THE SUMMER IS OVER.

    IT WOULD DO US GOOD TO REMEMBER WHO ‘CLOSED THE WAGONS AROUND HIM’ THEY ARE THE TURDS IN ROBES THAT DON’T CARE THAT ‘ONE OF THEIRS’ IS ABUSING AND BEATING UP WOMEN, THEY DON’T CARE ABOUT US, IN OTHER WORDS.

    NARCISSISTS HAVE VERY LITTLE ABILITY TO FEEL COMPASSION.

    EVERYTHING THEY SAY, ITS JUST TALK, THEY DO THE OPPOSITE.

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  677. Christie refers to
    http://www.trimondi.de/EN/links.htm

    This is a well-known, anti Dalai Lama, pro Dorje Shugden reference amongst followers of the disgraced New Kadampa Tradition (also the subject of DI’s scrutiny) which voices the same arguments as the anti feudalist ones voiced by the Communist regime in Beijing. Interesting coincidence that a contributor who claims in-depth knowledge of Tibetan Buddhism should use such a reference. In particular, attacks on the tulku system, attacks which are implicit in Christie’s criticisms, are standard NKT fayre. It doesnt take a genius to work out where her knowledge of Tibetan Buddhism comes from then, despite the fact that the NKT claims it is NOT a Tibetan group (They just wear Tibetan robes, have Tibetan names, and follow teachings fromTibet) Some have described the NKT as fanatical. Sound familiar?

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  678. STATEMENT BY DIALOGUE IRELAND

    This site is about the abuse of women by Sogyal. DI is not involved with any religious focus, but looks at cultism. We believe that the Bellab’s of this world though infuriating help us to understand cultism and cultist tendencies and attitudes. It is like hand to hand combat, but as none of the people who make up our board know anything about Buddhism we are happy that our Buddhist consultant who is active on this blog is moderating things here for us. S/he often also gets exasperated by the the number of trolls and the attempts to go off message. However, I can tell you are being supported and moderated. We prefer the south Korean to the North Korean model of moderatership! Also this the document that has managed to change the context over the past 2 years https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2009/04/07/briefing-document-on-sogyal-rinpoche/ Just to be clear the person is not Mary Finnigan.

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  679. I’ll stick with the writings of the incomaparableTerton Migyur Dorje thanks.

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  680. ‘Young Rinpoches writing books on ‘the art of happiness’ when they have little or no experience of adult life in the west says much about their motives. ‘

    I disagree with this. Surely the point of buddhist practice is that it is not dependent on your environment? Have you read ‘Joy of Living’ by Mingyur Rinpoche-it really is very sound. Will come back to this point later…just popped into say, that I read a few pages of Edelstein’s book and will read the whole thing. Seems very good and offers lots of guidance re sex and spiritual teachers. Also, to say that unless Rigpa students start to talk about the elephant in the room, there is no cure. It doesn’t have to be here, but it is something that concerns the sangha-blanket denial by its spokespeople and students adds to the problem.

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  681. I guess one of the disadvantages of free speech, a fundamental principle of DI, is it grants loonies a platform. At least their extreme views implicitly demonstrate the insanity that belies their views.

    I actually think Christie was right about a lot of stuff-the monopoly these third generation shangri la salesmen hold for example. Young Rinpoches writing books on ‘the art of happiness’ when they have little or no experience of adult life in the west says much about their motives.

    Problem with Christie was she used the obvious flaws as an excuse to condemn the whole of the Tibetan religious tradition. Bit like saying, the watch isnt working quite properly so lets smash it to pieces.

    Anyway, she/he has clearly demonstrated extreme tendencies that would set alarm bells ringing in any reasonable persons mind. bye Christie-see you in Beijing

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  682. A change from Bella at least. Shame these internet forums don’t really enable a decent discussion about the issues, just ranting in extreme forms, and no moderation.

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  683. I therefore view Christie’s posts as little more than political opportunism. Fortunately, Christie has not been posting for too long (as Christie at least) so readers can examine her comments which, to me, appear to be a not very subtle combination of hatred, resentment, racism and, at times, sheer lunacy. Certainly, abuse in any context should be condemned-But to advocate destruction of all contexts so as to eliminate abuse?? Sledge hammer-walnut

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  684. I spotted him/her first-shes either NKT or a Beijing born nationalist. Funnily enough, I read Goldsteins criticial appraisal of Tibetan history. i was appalled. I continue to practice the religion however because Tibetan history and religion are, for me, two distinct phenomena although there is an obvious relationship.

    The decision to attack Tibetan religion on the basis of its feudal history however places Christie slap bang in the centre of the Chinese anti Dalai Lama propaganda war.

    Also, trolls rant and detract from the real issue which, AFAIK, is Sogyql Lakars sexual abuse of disciples. For sure, this is a manifestation of something that went on in Tibet and is something that needs to be roote out. But condemning the whole of the Tibetan religous tradition as a ‘cure’. No, thats just crazy

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  685. I thought it wouldn’t take that long till Christie started on the Chinese propaganda, how Chinese invasion of Tibet is really good for Tibetans. Run along now, Christie, back to the Motherland. There’s a good boy.

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  686. Chinese troll or 3 post ment…you decide.

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  687. For those who may be reading this and are ready to come out of the cult of lamaism with “both feet” out:

    http://www.trimondi.de/EN/links.htm

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  688. “Over the past few years, increasing criticism has been levelled at Tibetan Buddhism, the history of Lamaism, conditions among the Tibetans in exile and the XIV Dalai Lama himself, criticism which is not from the Chinese quarter. Historians from the USA have begun questioning the widespread glorifying whitewash of Tibetan history (Melvin C. Goldstein, A. Tom Grunfeld). Critical Tibetologists have raised accusations of deliberate manipulation by official Tibetology (Donald S. Lopez Jr.). Tibet researchers have investigated the “dreams of power” that are activated and exacerbated by the “Tibet myth” nurtured by Lamaists (Peter Bishop). Prominent politicians have had to admit the evidence of their own eyes that the Chinese are not committing “genocide” in Tibet, as the Tibetans in exile continue to claim (Antje Vollmar, Mary Robinson). Former female Buddhists have condemned, on the basis of personal experience and with great expertise, the systematic and sophisticated oppression and abuse of women in Tibetan Buddhism (June Campbell). Psychologists and psychoanalysts have investigated the aggressive and morbid character of Lamaist culture (Robert A. Paul, Fokke Sierksma). From within the Dalai Lama’s own ranks, overwhelming evidence of his intolerant, superstitious and autocratic nature has been amassed since 1997 (Shugden Affair). Lamaism’s rituals have also been subjected to strong criticism. The humanistic, peace-loving, tolerant and ecumenical intentions of the Kalachakra Tantra and the Shambhala myth it contains have been interrogated in a comprehensive study (Victor and Victoria Trimondi). Biting criticism of the XIV Dalai Lama and his system founded on magic has also been broadcast in German, Swiss and Austrian television (Panorama, 10 nach 10, Treffpunkt Kultur). In Munich, on the occasion of a visit by the Tibetan religious potentate (in May 2000), there was even a split in the SPD, whose “pro-Dalai Lama” wing had invited the Tibetan “God-King” to a gala event. The media as a whole has been equally divided: the Dalai Lama has been accused of, among other things, having an undemocratic and autocratic leadership style, suppressing any political opposition, acting to repress religious minorities; letting policy be determined by possessed oracles rather than through dialog and debate, deliberate falsification of the history of Tibet, maintaining uncritical relationships with former members of the SS and Neo-Nazis, defaming critics and conducting misogynist rituals”.

    From the site of the Kalachakra Myth.

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  689. Pathetic group that is claiming to help those in a cult. But when it gets too hot you go running back to you lamas laps.

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  690. “Christie” Is that a Chinese name?

    I just figured out why Namkhai Norbu would be teaching at RIGPA-he cares about people, despite his supposed personal feelings about certain individuals. People crying out for genuine Dharma, a fully qualified master, deeply immersed in the technique to the point of complete realisation. Would you let one mans misdemeanours stand in the way??

    Bye

    Brainwshed liberal buddhist

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  691. Thanks very much. Bye Christie.

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  692. It useless. You have been programmed in the cult of lamaism, to be polite about these things, to call anyone that has righteous passion about how we have been colonized by this group of incarnate deities who have taken our money, taken our adult lives, and have turned us all into sheep in a matter of a few generations.

    The world kleptocracies see their value for “world sheepdom”. That’s why the Dalai Lama and his crowd are at the Verizon Center at 450.00 a ticket doing his humble monk routine to the weeping and crying and crowds of thousands. Preaching his watered down nothing buddhism. Telling people to “forgive the bankers” and the disgustingly rich, that hope to stay disgustingly rich as we are turned into sheep, with this new age buddhist religion, perfect as always for totalitarianism.

    Tibetan Lamaism, as the new religion for the Brave New World that will turn us all into 21st century serfs.

    But continue on here with your little dialogues, good luck.

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  693. The Tibetan Buddhist world is much bigger than these few lamas, important as some might be (I mean Namkhai Norbu) There are innumerable reputable Sakyas, Kagyus, Gelugs and indeed Nyingmas who will teach in the West this year and who are not ‘flipping the finger’ at us. Again, many of us choose NOT to go to these teachings becuase we already recognize how some of these individuals are cheapening the Dharma. Get off your high horse about ALL Tibetans beign corrupt-I agree, there are plenty of xenophobic Tibetans taking the piss, But they are not all like that. You are condemning the totality of the traditions on the basis of the misdemeanours of a small group of individuals. As for mere mortals like us, you speak for yourself; my Buddha nature s just as good as any Tibetans

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  694. What are you doing about it? Apart from writing on the internet?

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  695. Here they all are, this summer , teaching at Sogyal R’s Lerab Ling Center: carrying on as though nothing has happened because they have such disdain for what mere humans think. Even Namkai Norbu is teaching at Lerab Ling this summer, as though the sex scandal was just another blip on the screen for these “incarnate deities”

    These are all the most popular lamas in the west and all touted as “westernized lamas” as they carry on as though it was the 14 century ignoring the scandal swirling around “one of their own.”
    :
    Tsoknyi Rinpoche
    Ponlop RInpoche
    Dzigar Kontrol Rinpoche
    even Namkai Norbu.

    all taught with Sogyal or at his centers this summer.

    http://www.rigpa.org/en/about-rigpa/forthcoming-events.html

    Until we start holding “them all accountable” for this circling the wagons, nothing will change.

    They are flipping the finger at us. Call it what you will , mere mortals like us, cannot expect to call these incarnate deities to account. And until that changes, with a massive change in attitude from us, they wont care, they see themselves as beyond the human realm of accountability.

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  696. 30 years of increasing sheepdom in western tibetan buddhism is what “went wrong”.

    Right now, Sogyal is teaching with Dzigar Kontrol Rinpoche, another popular lama in the west, and they will be carrying on like this for another 20 years . Until society gets over their fantasies regarding these lamas, and holds them accountable as “human beings” and stops treating them as “living incarnate gods” then nothing will change. nothing.

    The very fact that someone has to even say this, over and over, on a site proclaiming to be a vehicle for people abused by cults, shows how far we are from recognizing the real problem of how we still don’t want to hold these lamas accountable for anything. This site is not interested in really addressing cults, its just a site so people can complain quietly, politely and ineffectively.

    All it is doing is draining the energy away, that could be used to fight the egregious behavior of these “humble monk” elitists who feel they can do whatever they want , to whomever they want, just like they did in Ol Tibet.

    Good luck all .

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  697. Christie, you said:
    “This mimi who was the latest abused should take out a criminal action, if she doesn’t , or all the other women don’t then they are back in pre-1970 rape era, where men got away with it and the victims were blamed. That’s what these women are also allowing.”

    See what you’re doing, blaming the victim. Ironic, innit? You obviously haven’t been keeping abreast of things, but there is no difference in the amount of successful rape convictions now. In some respects, things have deteriorated. Women who choose to come out about it, are still put on trial, and re-victimised. For a professed Tibetan buddhist practitioner, I sense little compassion and a lot of bile. What went so wrong? You praise long gone Tibetan practitioners and then condemn our present ones for not being in the 21st century…and yet they have proved remarkably adaptable, making the teachings available to all and sundry-but perhaps that’s what you dislike. Keep it as some elitist thing, seems to be what you want. Your posts are so contradictory, as the excerpt above which I started this post with shows.

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  698. Yeah Christie, there is some heavy anger/xenophobia/victim vibe about your comments. Their vehemence and venom really destroy your message which, in places is entirely valid. its as if youve only recently emerged from a cult like situation yourself and your still having problems coming to terms with it I only suggest a little counselling or the like because youve obviously been hurt and need a little bit of help. Or maybe Im just to liberal. In which case, s%% you! Seriously, lets stick to the issue of Sogyals behaviour please, and not get into trying to undermine the whole of the Tibetan Buddhist world-there are plenty of decent Lamas-although you are quite right about a lot of them being money grabbing charlatans, as Sogyal proves

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  699. “Our culture”?

    is this an excerpt from ‘Mein Kampf’?

    Fully agree with everything you say about the need for legal action-no one here apart from bella has aid anything to the contrary

    Does that mean we are not ‘PC Liberal Buddhists” (ad hominem attack)??

    Take sugar with your tea-it takes away the bitter taste

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  700. Yes, bring it to another more general level, and then no one will work with it. PC liberal buddhists are great at this. they start talking about things they can’t do anything about, “men in positons of power” or “abusive alpha males” than that makes it a total abstraction when we are talking about a creepy , greedy sexual lama predator SOGYAL PRECIOUS ONE, who is getting away with it, thanks to this kind of PC liberal blabbery, that just wants really to “talk about it” but not really do anything about it. and therefore it gives them a perfect excuse to do NOTHING about what is right in front of their face, something they could actually have an effect on. Its called “right action.”. This mimi who was the latest abused should take out a criminal action, if she doesn’t , or all the other women don’t then they are back in pre-1970 rape era, where men got away with it and the victims were blamed. That’s what these women are also allowing. These women need a good criminal lawyer to go after this “turd in robes” and stop protecting this bunch of old men in skirts who have had a free ride, in more ways than one, for decades now in our culture.

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  701. This isn’t a Tibetan issue. Predatory and absuive alpha males exist throughout society, and are usually found in the least expected places. Usually men in positions of power where breaking the boundaries seems exciting and easy. They crop up everywhere, so disagree. Like I said earlier, you have an axe to grind.

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  702. I agree, the issue is about a predator lama, within the cult of lamaism . i.e. an arrogant, preistly brahmin class that until society as a whole , holds accountable , AS HUMAN BEINGS in a society, then nothing will change.

    Sogyal’s predatoriness is “enabled” by a closed , patriarchial priestly brahmin system that will “always protect their own.” It took decades for the Catholic Church to acknowledge its preists predatory behavior and only when a critical mass of abused come forward, breaking through that wall of silence, did an acknowledgement from the Catholic Church’s closed patriarchial system, happen and ONLY when the society as a whole demands legal, criminal punishment for these CRIMES will the predatoriness of a few and the irresponsible behavior of the whole lama system’s social structure that makes sure that lamas NEVER take responsibility for their behaviors, and who enables and protects these predators from any consequences.

    The first thing one has to go after is their tax manipulated status as 501c3 Churches allowing them to hide millions in profits from their “congregations” who sanghas demand themselves no transparency. They wouldn’t dare question these holy men , or they will fear going to “rudra hell.” So those who are free of this have to speak out. This is a cult, that is why it is on this thread, and it is the biggest cult in the world. This is no different than Scientology. What other Church except for the Tammy Fayes and televangelists have been swimming in so much money? That’s what finally brought those two down. And they weren’t nearly as machiavellian. It’s time for people to call the IRS on Sogyal. That’s how Al Capone was captured, and this is no different than the mafia. It is a Tibetan Lama Mafia.

    Start reading the history of the real Tibet, not the Shangri lai fantasies that these kleptocrats have gladly kept going in Western minds.

    There is still Zen Buddhism, and Theravadin Buddhism and Dzogchen . These people have no monopoly on the buddhas teachings. They are just using them to fill their labrangs.

    These are the Third-Stringers, growing up in materialistic Nepal and India. They are Tibetan equivalent of people in the west in the 80’s, this is spiritual materialism and we can’t equivocate about calling a spade and spade. The Karmapa the Chinese one, caught with all that cash in yuans, in Dharmasala? He is dying to join the Dalai Lama for the Kalachakra initiative. And he just got a visa. Of course he is, Nepal and India’s honeymoon with these lamas is over, but not the U.S.! I am sure he wants to charge 5000 an interview again for all those naive and dumbed down lama cultists in America now, who want another religion of deity worship. Mormonism and Tibetan Lamaism, two theocracies both about deity worship.

    If you believe someone is a “living deity” than he can never do anything wrong, and everything will be rationalized. That’s what is going on here, whether people can admit it or not. You seem here to want Sogyal to be some “exception” but if we don’t realize that this is a fundamental theocracy of deity worship , than we can’t extricate yourself from this “cult of deity worship.” We first have to admit that the whole premise is based on a cult of deity worship. It is just another theism that we were fooled by. The teachings of the buddha are not “theistic.” so how could this lamaism be what the buddha taught?.

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  703. I really don’t know what to say to all of this ’cause frankly it doesn’t make sense to me in the context of the discussion that was started here. i think it’s a distraction of some sort – what we need to discuss is the behaviour of sogyal rinpoche that has been alleged and how it has also been alleged that this behaviour is enabled by rigpa. that’s the issue – the rest of the discussion is for another forum or a separate threat i think. it would be really helpful if people could keep to this topic – i don’t know what is the best way to bring this issue to a wider audience.

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  704. “Only you anon, are resorting to ad hominem attacks, what cult members usually do to discredit what is said” Er, thats an ad hominem attack..

    “They were called lamaists because that’s that the were, tending their lamasteries in Tibet/ The early adventurers called them lamas, the Tibetan peasants called them lamas, they didn’t have a word for Buddhism in Tibet.”

    The term “lamaism”, derives from Chinese lama jiao and was used to distinguish Tibetan Buddhism from Han Chinese Buddhism, fo jiao. The term was taken up by western scholars including Hegel, as early as 1822 (Lopez, Donald S. Jr. (1999). Prisoners of Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism and the West. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. pp. 6, 19f. ISBN 0226493113.). Insofar as it implies a discontinuity between Indian and Tibetan Buddhism, the term has been discredited (Conze, 1993)..

    “This site has been taken over by cultist lamaists,”
    Er, this site which exposes the activities of the NKT and Sogyal who both fit your definition of cultist lamaist is being run by……cultist lamaists?

    “Only you anon, are resorting to ad hominem attacks”
    Compare .”That would make most of them , with few exceptions “psychologically disturbed ” and off balance.”

    I suggest you are imbalanced, probably due to abuse within a Tibetan group, and have an axe to grind because you are repeatedly attacking people not (lack of) principles, and remain totally unaware of it. Seek help..

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  705. Yes, the cultists, or the psychobuddhists come out and call anyone that “goes too far” Crazy. or rather in a ” disturbed place” the more politically correct liberal psychobuddhist, i.e. “too aggressive” a sin in politically correct liberal buddhism worse than sexual predatoriness, or kleptocracies, or lama abuse. “too aggressive” the death knell for all intelligent conversation.. Of course they never notice their own “agression” using insults and personal attacks.

    Who are you trolling for anon?.

    Someone who doesn’t have the guts to use their own name.

    I hear they pay the “Tibetans” in exile trolls” money to come on every site and accuse people who use their own critical intelligence re: LAMAISM a troll. Meaning “chinese trol” Didn’t you call me that abouve? l.

    Tibetan lamas didn’t have a name for the practices they were doing, they haven’t translated the buddha’s teachings for 100’s of years, and they sure didn’t call what they were doing Buddhism. They were called lamaists because that’s that the were, tending their lamasteries in Tibet/ The early adventurers called them lamas, the Tibetan peasants called them lamas, they didn’t have a word for Buddhism in Tibet. .

    This site has been taken over by cultist lamaists, does the moderator notice, having to insult people personally when they don’t like what is said, calling them “disturbed” “off balance” ? This is cult behavior on a supposed site that is allowing expressions of feelings about cults and calling a “spade and spade.”

    Which stops all conversation.

    Only you anon, are resorting to ad hominem attacks, what cult members usually do to discredit what is said.

    And no I didn’t say every priest/lama was an abuser, I said they were narcissists who have been taught they were “living incarnate deities” since they were 4 or 5 years old superior and transcending the human race. It is called being delusional in our western culture. And I said it was time that we started looking clearly at how absurd it has been to ignore this. . That would make most of them , with few exceptions “psychologically disturbed ” and off balance.

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  706. “The Buddha sat done under a tree alone, not in a group , after he had exhausted all the isms of his time.”

    Q Would the Buddha have achieved enlightenment without going through such a process?

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  707. Oh and your saying Buddhism immediately became corrupt as soon as he taught-no, you have an axe to grind and you go far too far in your assertions, extreme views which indicate that you are in a disturbed place psychologically. Millions of people have and are benefiting by following Buddhas teaching (Not Hinduism as you suggest).

    Your views are akin to claiming that every priest in the catholic church is a sexual abuser-thats what I call extreme fanaticism. The fact that you were blind to Trungpa’s actions started the alarm bells ringing-your subsequent posts have confirmed your lack of game fitness.

    Your proclamations on the history and nature of Buddhism are laughable, even down to using terms like Lamaism.

    You make exactly the same mistake critics of Catholicism make-you condemn the faith when it is the establshment which is at fault. So far off, so wrong, and more than a little loco

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  708. Definitely

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  709. Cultist that doesn’t know one is in a cult. They never do.

    The Buddha sat done under a tree alone, not in a group , after he had exhausted all the isms of his time.

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  710. Troll

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  711. And of course these “good lamas know” for goodness sakes. People in lama cults always want to believe that these lamas “don’t know” or “if they just knew they would do something about it. Do you really think that those “in close ” to these lamas don’t know about Sogyal. They are the “enablers” for goodness sake. Sogyal couldn’t be doing what he has done all these years except for the enablers! Its amazing that westerners pick and choose the psychology allowed into these lamas cults, but Psychology and group psychology 101 is always discarded! These lamas and their western co-opted enablers, just play dumb when they need to. These lamas never take responsibility for their own, or their other lamas behaviors. And their western coopted enablers never expect them too. NEVER. Narcissists never take responsibility for their behavior, This is a closed ranks, brotherhood of delusional narcissists that believe they are living gods. While they play the humble monk roles.

    What is the definition of narcissism, a child that has a deep trauma covered over by delusions of grandeur, and empty place in one’s sense of self , that can never be filled. Narcissists never take responsibility for their own behaviors. NEVER. And they need narcissistic objects to act out their delusional fanatasies about themselves. These lamas , on their thrones have whole crowds of narcissistic objects to act out their fantasies. Its too late for them to change. But we are still free, we can. We can say enough all ready , you lamas have had 30 years in the west to adapt to the 21 century, and you havent. So goodbye, we are not going to enable this behavior anymore. We can say this, person by person, who decides to let the whole fantasy of Shangri lai go. We can embrace our own western culture of critical thinking and individualism again, that we so quickly discarded in our “spritual seeking.” Our own values need to be re-embraced again, before its too late.

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  712. My point is this:

    Start reading the true history of lamaism, I suggest Melvyn Goldsteins excellent 2 volume book on the longest lasting feudal theocracy in the world, that enslaved and enserfed their OWN people.

    As long as you still have one “big toe” still in these lamaist theocracy cults , you will attack people who say anything against your clinging to the belief that this has ANYTHING to do with what the Buddha actually taught. These lamas have been trained since they were 4 or 5 years old to believe that they are” incarnate living being”s on those thrones . They have been taken from their families and raised by old men in a rigidly structured patriarchy where they become the “schills” for their big money making machines. Most of them hate it at first, and try to rebel but the controls are too great, and soon they believe the mythological narratives about themselves.. They are true narcissists that have a fundamental trauma that is covered over by being glorified as living gods on these thrones. THis is not what the buddha taught, and to argue about whether Dzogchen includes mahayana teachings is missing the whole point of the original argument. That’s what buddhists always do , they take the argument away and talk about something else, because the cognitive dissonance is too great to really investigate these things. By the way , the . Mahayana teachings were mostly influenced by the Greeks , they were the first to make an “icon” of the Buddha, he never wanted a successor.That’s why those Greco-Roman statue heads look Greek.

    Everyone wants to believe that they are studying what the buddha taught, in these Lama theocracies, they are not. They are studying a mishmash of animism/Mongol Khan mayahanism, that the Khans saw as very effective to enslave whole people into focusing on “karma” and reincarnation, and future lives instead of realizing that they were being enslaved, and theocratic hindustani priestly brahmin “buddhism” that was coopted by the Hindus to repress people again, after the buddha died is what these lamas are really manifesting. Throw in a misuse of the vajrayana teachings to keep whole groups enslaved,taking vows to never criticize the teacher, never ask questions of the master, etc. when those teachings were supposed to be between a yogic teacher and disciple or a small group of disciples, who had tested each other for years.

    Now throw in psychotherapy with this mishmash of buddhism, just as Kornfield and company has done and we have the perfect storm for a new age religon , with a little meditation to keep us “calm” and peaceful from ever using our critical intelligence again. Lamaism turns intelligent people into complete sheep in a matter of a few years. Why do you think the most brutal societies have had “Buddhism” as a religion? Because this distorted buddhism is so effective in keeping
    people in line, worried about their next life and censoring all passion and individualism. Buddhism as a religion has been used for millenium in keeping people enslaved. Buddhism is disasterous as a religion because it can be so easily distorted into group control.

    That’s the true lesson of these women being enslaved by fat, selfish, greedy lama predators. Sogyal is just one end of the continuum.

    These are lama cults not the buddha’s teachings. That is why if anyone breaks free and starts really looking clearly at these situations as the cults of lamaism they are, then they are attacked as going to far. One can’t cross a certain taboo line, and say, they are all cults. There must be some exception. Well, as long as you have this medieval patriarchal, misogynistic priestly brahmin, hindustani structure, and as long as the west continues to want their fantasies of needing a god to tell them what to do , what to think, this is theism. And the structure of lamaist theism is a master slave paradigm, even if you are allowed to be one of their “house servants” in golden chains, you are still mentally enslaved and your very thoughts are being controlled. This is the opposite of what the buddha taught. The Shakyamuni Buddha ironically was a secular humanist who was also an activist who tried to end the caste system of his day. Ironically the hindustani brahmin coopted his teachings and brought the caste sytem hierarchy back, that’s what all these “Tibetan Buddhist westerners” have been really practicing : Hinduism.

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  713. My point is this:

    Start reading the true history of lamaism, I suggest Melvyn Goldsteins excellent 2 volume book on the longest lasting feudal theocracy in the world, that enslaved and enserfed their OWN people.

    As long as you still have one “big toe” still in these lamaist theocracy cults , you will attack people who say anything against your clinging to the belief that this has ANYTHING to do with what the Buddha actually taught. These lamas have been trained since they were 4 or 5 years old to believe that they are” incarnate living being”s on those thrones . They have been taken from their families and raised by old men in a rigidly structured patriarchy where they become the “schills” for their big money making machines. Most of them hate it at first, and try to rebel but the controls are too great, and soon they believe the mythological narratives about themselves.. They are true narcissists that have a fundamental trauma that is covered over by being glorified as living gods on these thrones. THis is not what the buddha taught, and to argue about whether Dzogchen includes mahayana teachings is missing the whole point of the original argument. That’s what buddhists always do , they take the argument away and talk about something else, because the cognitive dissonance is too great to really investigate these things. By the way , the . Mahayana teachings were mostly influenced by the Greeks , they were the first to make an “icon” of the Buddha, he never wanted a successor.That’s why those Greco-Roman statue heads look Greek.

    Everyone wants to believe that they are studying what the buddha taught, in these Lama theocracies, they are not. They are studying a mishmash of animism/Mongol Khan mayahanism, that the Khans saw as very effective to enslave whole people into focusing on “karma” and reincarnation, and future lives instead of realizing that they were being enslaved, and theocratic hindustani priestly brahmin “buddhism” that was coopted by the Hindus to repress people again, after the buddha died is what these lamas are really manifesting. Throw in a misuse of the vajrayana teachings to keep whole groups enslaved,taking vows to never criticize the teacher, never ask questions of the master, etc. when those teachings were supposed to be between a yogic teacher and disciple or a small group of disciples, who had tested each other for years.

    Now throw in psychotherapy with this mishmash of buddhism, just as Kornfield and company has done and we have the perfect storm for a new age religon , with a little meditation to keep us “calm” and peaceful from ever using our critical intelligence again. Lamaism turns intelligent people into complete sheep in a matter of a few years. Why do you think the most brutal societies have had “Buddhism” as a religion? Because this distorted buddhism is so effective in keeping people in line, worried about their next life and censoring all passion and individualism.

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  714. Still Christie makes an important point. It’s all the fairly good Lamas who associate with SR (who I am sure cannot know all the details of his behaviour behind closed doors or fully understand the unhealthy group dynamic within Rigpa), who endorse him as a Vajrayana Master.
    They are the ones who should be informed about exactly what is going on. So anyone who does have contact with these or other Lamas/Western Teachers really should speak up. Perhaps the next step is to arrange conferences.

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  715. Christie you wrote in response to my telling you The Guardian deletes posts at the drop of a hat that:
    “This is BIG BIG Business in the States. Do I think that they would write to remove a post re: their connections with Sogyal, of course because their multi-million dollar franchises, and books and coopted psychotherapists lite, are all dependent on their connections with each other. Salzberg has been on Oprah shows. This is Buddhism for the masses, a buddhism lite/self help multimillion dollar enterprise. They would cover this up to save their economic lives.

    They would have their PR media machine move right in, as soon as they saw this article.

    I think this should be of great concern that a newspaper like the Guardian would succumb to this kind of censoring. It ONLY happened because these people’s names were mentioned in connection with Sogyal and the scandal. Pundarika , Tsoknyi R ‘s group has a fairly big presence in Britain.”

    Go back and read the Community Guidelines on CiF. You are barking up the wrong tree if you honestly believe people Salzburg et al are in contact with the Guardian about your posts! That is some ego you have there. Get a grip, man. If they were, believe me, your posts here would have been deleted, and someone would have been in touch with DI webmaster. Why not ask them. Paranoia and axe…nothing else. You won’t believe me, I know

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  716. Christie, your posts could be summarised into a tshirt slogan reading:

    ’30 years of tibetan buddhism and all I got was this axe.’

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  717. the last message was for christie

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  718. BTW You are clearly a follower of Namkhai Norbu who recently, on the death of Khyentse Sangyum, wrote:
    “To the supreme tulku, Sogyal Rinpoche, noble vajra brother of unequalled love and kindness”
    I would suggest you do not add to the virulent rumours concerning Chogyal Namkhai Norbus attitude towards Sogyal Lakar and maintain a considered and diplomatic stance, like your teacher. Repeating the gossip of the disciples only lowers to the tone of the whole tradition

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  719. Christie, you say: “I have been a Tibetan Buddhist for 30 years, these lamas, these third stringers are here for our money. These are NOT the Chogyam Trungpas who taught us to question everything and to speak out against corruption. That teaching was lost on most of us and now Political Correct causes have joined with PC liberal lite weight buddhism, and yes yes CTR was a serial philanderer but he didn’t demean women, he put them in positions of power all over his mandala, He loved women, and respected them. This Sogyal is a real abuser. These are not the Dilgo Khentse Rinpoches, not even the 16 th Karmapa who was about practice himself.”

    I’ve not had time to read all the posts here but excuse me if I just jump in on this bit which caught my eye…I think if you take issue with Sogyal then am suprised you are sort of glorifying and idealising some of Chogyam’s behaviour…I agree to some extent about their need for money, but most of it, is going to projects where they badly need help. If there is a bit of Robin Hood behaviour in that, so what? You don’t have to give. Tibetan buddhism has left you with a huge axe to grind. That’s very, very sad, as some of what you say is valid but condemning everyone and all the teachers discounts the enormous benefit to many of us Westerners. I am guessing you don’t practice at all now. What we who chose to deify and apply Christian type concepts onto Tib buddhism forget is that no matter the shite out there, the light is within. Training the mind is as valid as it ever was, getting lost in condemnation and wholesale lama-bashing, merely reflects that perhaps you never got the point.

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  720. “Dozgchen is not even considered Buddhism”

    Two things to read: Dudjom Rinpoches “History and Teachings of the Nyingma tradition” and The Story of the frog in the well. Your initial statement shows you know nothing of Buddhist/bonpo/dzogchen history other than what you have been told by someone holding a narrow, insider perspective. Please avoid making such ridiculous statements as it only detracts from the credibility of your other comments which are frequently valid “Dozgchen is not even considered Buddhism” ???LOL

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  721. Dozgchen is not even considered Buddhism, but radical Dzogchen teachrs and they are very very clear about this, but it came through the vehicle of Buddhism often. Dzogchen is not part of the three yana (actually 9 yana ) system of Tibetan Buddhism. Namkai Norbu Rinpoche, was a Bonpo influenced teacher as well with great integrity. His western dharma heir and son seems to be teaching his lineage of Dzogchen teachings from what I hear. Namkai Norbu who was very clear about this, as are all good Dzogchen Teachers.Keith Dowman and others who teach radical Dzogchen. Lamas often put down these teachings because they are so empowering, and if you are empowered you are not in these third-stringers clutches for the rest of your life. Trungpa Rinpoche’s teachings, although a gradual path were always coming from the Dzogchen view. He also taught on “idiot compassion” which is what is pervasive now, using the mahayana teachings (that always said one had to have a realization of emptiness and one had to take care of ones own spiritual awakeing before you could ever help anyone else. Now we have the mahayana lite as well, with the psycho/buddhist lites running around trying to “help” . It is a complete distortion of the mahayana teachings as well.

    I suggest Namkai Norbu’s very clear teachings on this, which he always emphasizes in all of his teachings and books: That Dozgchen is NOT Buddhism, and is not part of the 9 yana system. Many people are confused about this because of the way the 3rd stringers are teachings these days, because they don’t get this themselves. Namkai Norbu also wrote eloquently in a little book called “Buddhism and Psychology” about the dangers of conflating and watering down Buddhism with psychotherapy, they are distinct lineages, psychotherapy is often used to help people conform to the society they are in and has also been used as an arm of State control in dictatorships, (just imagine what psychobuddism, with psychobuddhism as the new “happy face” conforming religion of the new 21st century feudalism, when the middle class is completely eroded and there are only the very rich and the rest of us. Can you imagine how they can repress us and brainwash us with the new age psychobuddhism? Most dharma groups within these lamas scenes now are completely asleep after twenty years of this. They are into pseudo harmony and cult-like behavior where no questioning is allowed with psychotherapy thrown in. . These two things have opposite uses. Now you have psychotherapists-lite getting a little Buddhism-lite and using it on their resumes. Just go to the Spirit Rock site and see the list of teachers and their credentials . http://www.spiritrock.com and see how they have conflated the two

    The authentic Dharma on the other hand is radical, its to wake people up from controls and conditioning One was taught to question everything, and test a teacher for 12 years (Patrul Rinpoche’s advise on finding a spiritual teacher).
    Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche , whatever people think of his lifestyle, always taught us to question everything , particularly spiritual scenes. That one should never, never become part of a herd, but do not trust, because you will be captured as the herds panic. That’s a beautiful poem about this he wrote in Mudra in 1968, when he took off those robes.

    There may be still good lamas out there, but they are becoming fewer and far between and dying off as the third-stringer kleptocrats and their million dollar franchises world wide take over often with Chinese money now as they build their million dollar franchises where the new millionaires are in Tawain and Singapore and Malaysia, where Asians don’t ask questions are are used to this paradigm of gold throne lamas and rituals and abhishekas for “good luck” and prayers for a better life and good karma.
    .

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  722. “Confuse the mahayana with Dzogchen , the vajrayana with the mahayana”

    Unless you are follower a of Namkhai Norbu ora Bonpo, I find it strange that you do NOT see Dzogchen as Maahayana, or consider vajrayana distinct from the Mahayana-these are fundamentals and to not know this makes me wonder where you are coming from.

    However,I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis of the third generation of money grabbing power crazed ego maniacs who call themselves as well as your analysis of the current Buddhism being a mish mash of numerous pseudo spiritual therapies running all the way from crystals to colonic irrigation, This I am afraid is the face of Modern Buddhism. It took the Tibetans centuries to destroy what we are managing, with their assistance, to bring to its knees in virtual moments SAD

    Stay devoted to your teacher and follow the genuine Dharma-the truth will out.

    Trungoa said devoting yourself to a charlatan is like falling asleep on someone else’s horse; eventually, it returns to its genuine owner. Again, remember the Taoist addage: Stand to the side of the river and watch the body of your enemy float by.

    The time is coming

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  723. words, Like we ‘commit a huge downfall” or seeing “pure view ” as something absolute and therefore dualistically is the problem.

    I think there is so much distortion of these things because of the third-stringer lamas that confuse the mahayana with Dzogchen , the vajrayana with the mahayana.

    The huge downfall is when we as students , who did get the authentic dharma from the old lamas who were not here just for the money, who appreciated our culture, learned our culture and respected it, and really tried to plant the dharma in the west before these carrion crows took over, the downfall is when we sit back year after years and SAY NOTHING. We also took vows to protect the authentic dharma from corruption and spiritual materialism. It is almost too late, because of the cowering and being coopted into lamaism, NOT what the Buddha taught, nor what the authentic dharma teachers taught.

    These people should be exposed. They are in the west, in OUR CULTURE, not 8th century Tibet. They lost their country because of this corruption and they are so thick and stupid this bunch, they are doing it all over again. It is these lamas that are pots that are turned upside down, that are willing to compromise the teachings for their labrangs and filling their pockets with money, for the sex and the power, and they should be swept away! Then the real teachers might emerge. The few Tibetan Lamas wont speak out publically because they have been trained to never speak out . Its up to us. If the dharma is to be planted authentically in the west, not this hodgepodge of psychotherapy/lite/ newage religion light that will be another “ism” used not to wake us up , but to become empty rituals and the selling of the dharma, the very thing that happened in Ol Tibet . These lamas lost their own country, it wasn’t the Chinese that took it away from them because they didn’t care about their own people. NO COMPASSION>

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  724. Youre absolutely right about Tibetan history and how some Tibetans dont want us to look at it-Elsewhere on this site there is stuff about some guy whose book was banned by the New Kadampas—because it told the history of the deity they worship. Thats it, if they keep us ignorant about the bullshit, they can play the game again, even though it already caused the fall of Tibet. As long as theres money to be made, who gives a sh%%

    On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with ‘pure view’ per se-ultimately such is the goal of Buddhism. The issue is the way certain Tibetans have skilfully manipulated the concept in order to facilitate abuse-therein lies the problem. If we dont note this subtle difference, we commit a huge downfall. Here, the problem lies with the messenger, not the message

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  725. This is the problem, conflating Buddhism with Lamaism.

    I have been a Tibetan Buddhist for 30 years, these lamas, these third stringers are here for our money. These are NOT the Chogyam Trungpas who taught us to question everything and to speak out against corruption. That teaching was lost on most of us and now Political Correct causes have joined with PC liberal lite weight buddhism, and yes yes CTR was a serial philanderer but he didn’t demean women, he put them in positions of power all over his mandala, He loved women, and respected them. This Sogyal is a real abuser. These are not the Dilgo Khentse Rinpoches, not even the 16 th Karmapa who was about practice himself.

    . These are mostly third stringer lamas, and even the good ones of the young Turks, growing up in India and Nepal in Exile and treated like “little princes” with nothing to counterac their gigantic EGOS, t such as a really wrathful tutor like the old Lamas had, NEVER want to really come off those Hindustani Thrones. Never. They see themselves as incarnate deities, and they can never give that up . Even the pretty good ones, they just can’t give up the “golden throne center and “mud hut fringe” social structure, Never They are only 60 years out of the 8th century , and they aren’t really out of it, they are trying to recreate it again, world wide. that’s what no one gets. They don’t have the mental structures to treat us equally, because they are still living in the 8-14 century and make sure that that is what surrounds them. This is lamaism. . They all have a group of rich benefactors around them, close in, really the “house servants”, As for the Dalai Lama and his simply message of peace, (meaning never get angry , never protest anything, this is not even the vajrayana buddhism of the early lamas, this is sappy new age religion to keep everyone as sheep. The Kagyus were almost annilated by the Gelupa “Poltical Dalai Lamas”. One of the first things I did when extricated myself from the cultism that started growing around all these current sects of lamaism now, is to read the true history of Tibet. None of my former Tibetan “buddhist” friends want to know anything anymore. They don’t read history because their lamas tell them, in there always “disdaining” way of talking about Western cultrue, that “they don’t believe in history”, that’s from a Tsonkyi R retreat, that paragon of western buddhism now, close friend of Sogyal. His management group are all rich benefactors who “manage the retreats” they don’t actually do the retreats anymore with us. They just do the fundraising and the PR machine to collect more and more money, for their “causes.” THere is NO transparency in these groups . Because eventually all the students become sheep and ask no questions anymore. The 501c3 Church status as a nonprofit assumes that their is transparency in their “congregations.” What the IRS or other Taxing Entities don’t know, is that in a “cult” where all questioning is stopped, where you see the leader or teacher as a “living deity” and that you will go to varja hell if you dare to have even bad thoughts about these lamas, i.e. using the varjayana teachings for group thought control, then these lama kleptocracies get to have free reign after they have cultified the “congregation.”

    There are good Tibetan yogis out there who want nothing to do with these monkey shows. That’s what we are confusing with these kleptocrats.

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  726. i heartily agree with anonAnon – i had a bad experience at the end of the day with rigpa and how questions about rinpoche’s behaviour were dealt with but that hasn’t turned me away from buddhism. i still practice it and there are really some great teachers out there, in the same way that there are great, well-meaning people in catholic church who aren’t represented by the issues that emerged from that church. i think the core issue being discussed here is the behaviour of sogyal rinpoche and how that behaviour is enabled by rigpa, not whether all or any religions are good in themselves. that’s not the issue for discussion here and is purely a matter of personal opinion. what is happening with sogyal rinpoche is very distressing for many buddhists who have benefitted from buddhist teachings and practices.

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  727. Woah there!
    Agreed SOgyal is a user and there are quite a few nasty pieces of work in the world of Buddhist Business.Again, the Dalai Lama’s decision to sell his message as a cure for this life’s happiness, when the religion itself preaches that those who want the happiness of this life are not truly religious sits rather awkwardly and certainly raises qestions, this does nto mean that ‘Lamaism’ is a cult of the devil incarnate. For every charlatan there are also genuine teachers (if there is black there is white, if there is up, there is down) SO lets be careful. I am a Buddhist and I abhor what these people are doing in the name of my religion. But what they are doing IS NOT my religion, in the same way as sexual abuse is not part of the Catholic creed. What we are witnessing is the unscrupulous utilising faith to their own ends-that doesnt make the faith bad,
    although he anti religious will certainy sieze upon and protray it as this.
    In that way, what we have above is not different from the tactics of the abusers:little more than manipulation of a situation for their own cynical ends.
    May religion benefit the world May those who abuse it for their own personal ends, be they religious or anti-religious, be immediately exposed.

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  728. The sexual scandals are only a part of these kleptocracies. They are here to colonize the “faithfools” . These lamas come from a 900 year tradition of feudal lamaism that was able to mesmerize their own people for a millenium and keep them enslaved in the longest lasting feudal theocracy and one of the most brutal in the history of mankind.

    They are here for the money, some of them are abberant sex addicts but they are all here for the money. They see themselves as “living deities” incarnate on those thrones, and have been brainwashed since they were 4 and 5 years old to believe this. They believe that they have transcended the “human realm” . This is a master -slave paradigm that goes way beyond just the sex.

    Are their good lamas, a few, and they aren’t part of these “monkey shows”

    The point I am trying to make here, is that this is the biggest cult in the world, enabled now by psychotherapy, neuroscience, tibetophile academia.

    The Dalai Lama has his “art of happiness tour” now spewing out his homilies to fool the masses and has them weeping and crying over his sophomoric rhetoric. Blair and Cameron have totally bought into this lamaism, and would like to see it in the school systems. One of the tenets of “the Action for Happiness” Group is “giving up individuality” Mussolini said the same thing. When lamaism has coopted politicians, and the psychotherapists then you have a new religious movement that will turn everyone into sheep.

    My point about this is: that even western buddhists and psychotherapists in the US have succumbed to feudal lamaism and its master-slave paradigm on a grand scale. The ambitions of these lamas is to stay in their Hindustani priestly brahmin role and turn the world into sheep, with the aide and abettance of the worlds kleptocracies. Don’t you remember the Dalai Lama’s tour in Ireland:
    “Forgive the bankers ” and those that screwed you. “Dont worry, be happy.” This is now a mass “new age religious buddism lite , for the masses, to give up their critical thinking. The women that have allowed themselves to be abused by Sogyal R, are just the “canaries in the coal mine”. Everyone is fooled by this. There are few exceptions.

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  729. Here are the deep connections between Spirit Rock, Sogyal R Tsoknyi Rinpoche and Sharon Salzberg, Goleman , Kornfield, Lama Surya Das, etc. This is a BIG Tibetan Lamaism/Insight Meditation conglomerate that endorse each others books, and teach together, sucking in thousands into their commodified form of Buddhism for the mainstream.

    Kornfield and Goleman and Salzberg were be loathe to let their “enabling” of this predator be exposed, they have been coopted by lamaism , even though ironically they started their group partially to be a more westernized, more democratic movement in Buddhism in the States. .

    This is BIG BIG Business in the States. Do I think that they would write to remove a post re: their connections with Sogyal, of course because their multi-million dollar franchises, and books and coopted psychotherapists lite, are all dependent on their connections with each other. Salzberg has been on Oprah shows. This is Buddhism for the masses, a buddhism lite/self help multimillion dollar enterprise. They would cover this up to save their economic lives.

    tsoknyi and sogyal R.:
    “Tsoknyi Rinpoche is a frequent guest at Rigpa retreats in Lerab Ling and elsewhere. Not only is he a son of one of Sogyal Rinpoche’s main teachers Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, he is also one of Sogyal Rinpoche’s closest friends. ”
    http://jurekschreiner.blogspot.com/2009/11/tsoknyi-rinpoche.html

    During this special retreat, Sogyal Rinpoche and Tsoknyi Rinpoche will teach on the nature of awareness and the mind. Together with guest appearances from Daniel Goleman, Tara Bennett-Goleman and Sharon Salzberg, they will offer spiritual, psychological and scientific perspectives on meditation and on how it can help us to bring more wisdom and compassion into our lives.
    This is the very first time that these two highly acclaimed meditation masters have led a retreat together and this promises to be a truly unique opportunity.

    from an ad for Garrison Institute retreat-Tsoknyi and Sogyal and the whole bunch from Spirit Rock this June 24-29, just before this story broke in the Sunday Times regarding Sex Scandals and Sogyal.

    They would have their PR media machine move right in, as soon as they saw this article.

    I think this should be of great concern that a newspaper like the Guardian would succumb to this kind of censoring. It ONLY happened because these people’s names were mentioned in connection with Sogyal and the scandal. Pundarika , Tsoknyi R ‘s group has a fairly big presence in Britain.

    As long as we allow this censoring and say nothing they will continue to spin out their moneymaking, cults on the unsuspecting.

    Everyone loves Tsoknyi R, he has a similar cult surrounding him , and people become disillusioned after a period of time, and sick of the constant fundraising and soon realize that he has great ambitions and a need for adoration and you checkbook.

    How do I get ahold of Mary Finnegan?

    .

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  730. p.s Do you really think Kornfeld, et al had the time to read your post and complain…hardly! Guardian remove posts at the drop of a hat. I talk from experience.

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  731. Christie, you are being a bit paranoid here. The Guardian will not be protecting anyone but themselves. You will have contravened their rules, no one elses. FACT.

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  732. it’s all a bit cosy alright, you should ask the guardian why your comment was removed, they have rules of posting which can’t be violated or they’ll remove it but from what you’ve said above, your comment shouldn’t come into that. there’s a lot of endorsement between different groups so i’m sure certain groups don’t want to flag their connection. there are however also a number tibetan lamas who don’t associate with sogyal rinpoche and rigpa because of their own reasons and misgivings.

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  733. I recently made a comment on article about Sogyal R’s shennanigans on the British Guardian by Mary Finnegan, about the weird situation at Spirit Rock in California. A break-off group from the Insight Meditation Theravadin Influenced movement by Jack Kornfield to start a Western Meditation Group, made up of a psychology/buddhist staff, seemingly trying to be an antidote to the Guru Abuse phenomenon and The Tibetan chauvinism and territoritality regarding Buddhism. But a lama snuck in and snuckered them. Tsoknyi Rinpoche, who has just finished a tour with Sogyal they are good pals, just finished teaching together at Garrison Institute in N.Y. . Just before this article re: Sogyal R. again. Tosknyi Rinpoche is wildly popular with the psychotherapylite/buddhist lite crossover, and teaches at Spirit Rock with Sharon Salzberg, Goleman, and company. They have quite a mutual book endorsing club also they tout him as “crossing the east and west bridge” and he touts them with this lama credentials. His group is a big fundraising group world wide, and apparently Sogyal is his mentor. When I mentioned the connection and the irony in all this, that the psychotherapy types are just as susceptible to becoming sheep and in a cult, this whole post was removed. There was nothing offensive particular, just stating facts and it tells me that Rigpa, and PUndarika and Salzberg and even Kornfield are doing damage control and are “closing ranks” hoping this connection with Sogyal R , the predator, doesn’t reach the sheep in their respective “churches”. It shocked me that this post was removed. These people have WAY too much power and they need to be exposed more, if they can do this.

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  734. it’s not that striking – they’re just figuring out what to say next, probably too busy communicating with other rigpa people to tell them what they should say, how they should respond and so on. they’re in crisis management mode i’d say as there’s been so much publicity recently and i hope this publicity brings things to a head for everyone concerned.

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  735. The absence of RIGPA response here, be it official, unofficial or officially unofficial, is striking. There is little doubt in my mind that people have been told to keep their mouths shut, something I find both naive and sinister at such at such a juncture. Off course, if the allegations were untrue, it is possible that much of the damage could be limited by a tempered response. However, someone has clearly realized that, in the face of truth, to continue lying will only make this bad situation much, much worse. Of course, as ostrich’s prove, burying ones head in the sand doesnt do much to eradicate the problem.

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  736. Yeah
    Lets stay focused. often a big organization can do lots of stuff that benefits others-the Catholic Church runs countless charitable programmes.But were not talking about that. This is about someone in a position of power utilizing that position to procure women for personal gratification-no amount of charitable work makes such behaviour acceptable

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  737. i think you’ll meet some fantastic people in rigpa – some of the kindest, most decent people you’ll ever meet – very well motivated and some of them do have careers and so on. but in my experience, a large amount of them are working a huge amount of time for rigpa to the exclusion of other activities and interests. that’s their choice though and if it’s only for a period of time, that’s fine but i do think some people just get stuck. rigpa does support monasteries and so on and that’s very worthy but all of this is a distraction from the central issue which is the role of rinpoche and the stories that have emerged.

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  738. “People within Rigpa, have no interest in politics, in reading a paper, in Tibet even”

    I happen to know that people follow news like regular people. People still have interests, hobbies… some even write books on Tibetan Buddhism, some are studying in Nepal.

    Some of those people find genuinely good friends in Rigpa – and really like it there. If you didn’t, then I’m sorry for you.

    I have a few good friends in the inner circle – and do you really think they have stopped being humans, having other interests too? Have other careers too? For many it’s a phase in one’s life that one spends there. Can you blame them for wanting to spend time in Dharma surrounding, rather than in ordinary, non-Dharma-supporting environment? Do you think they never have fun?

    Do you know that Rigpa supports many monasterios and nunneries in India, Nepal – perhaps elsewhere too?

    If you understand experiencing “rigpa” as narrowing down, limiting oneself, I think you are mistaken. They are training their minds, unlike me, wasting time here, for example.

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  739. They’re not physically isolated from anything, but mentally they become so wrapped up in Rigpa life that they have little time left over for anything outside of it. Yes, they are encouraged to work, and also encouraged, bullied, cajoled, into giving up large parts of their earnings to fund any number of projects that are ongoing. This is no different to many religious organizations, except perhaps for the bullying and cajoling. People within Rigpa, have no interest in politics, in reading a paper, in Tibet even…it is a very self-enclosed and isolated world.. in the name of gaining enlightenment. The more involved they become the more disinterested in what is going on outside they become…this isn’t a criticism, it is what happens. Rigpa fulfills peoples need to belong. All good, all good, but when their is corruption at the top, and when the abuse that goes on is ignored, those who ignore it unwittingly condone it. It’s very sad, for there are some genuinely caring and good-hearted people in Rigpa. I think Bellab, you are not part of that community, but identify with it…either that or you having been constructed to refute every post relentlessly. Either way, I feel for you, you seem trapped.

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  740. “They are separated from family and friends, discouraged from contact with the outside world and persuaded to see the organisation as family with the guru (confusingly as father-lover) in absolute power and control.”

    I have seen many family members visiting Rigpa. People are not isolated from anything. Rigpa wants it’s people to exist in the world, you know? Benefitting people and all that… what Buddhism is all about. How could you isolate thousands of people with working places, careers and families? How ridiculous, I must say.

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