Tantric Couple Copulation Lamaism is not Buddhism

Dialogue Ireland is happy to publish the YouTube documentary on Lamaism. During our research and following our encounter with Chris Chandler we began to have a better understanding of the true nature Lamaism as a Sex Cult. At that time we became acquainted with the The True Enlightenment Education Foundation based in Taipei, Taiwan. We will write more on this later, but here we want to make our readers and viewers aware of what TB=Lamaism is all about. We do not enter into the Religious dynamic and belief systems inherent in this discussion as our focus is Cultism, but we are happy to co operate with our Taiwanese friends and through them to have our material available to a new audience.

The True Enlightenment Education Foundation is dedicated to promoting the inner insight philosophy of Tathagatagarbha.

Its mission statement is to care for life, educate people, and maintain good social ethics and morals.

The True Enlightenment Education Foundation comprises many academic experts, who have thoroughly studied the doctrines of Tibetan Lamaism and have uncovered concrete evidence that cannot be refuted by the followers of Lamaism.
Thus they thoroughly understand the fundamental doctrines of Lamaism.

The True Enlightenment Education Foundation has published four big volumes of Behind the Façade of Tibetan Buddhism, which have revealed the truth about Tibetan Buddhism, so far hidden behind its mysterious veil, and have exposed it to the public eye.

The truth is that the core doctrine of Tibetan Buddhism consists of the Couple-Practice Tantra. The lustful copulation practice between a male and a female is viewed as the ultimate cultivation method.

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The book Behind the Façade of Tibetan Buddhism has completely unmasked the erroneous knowledge, concepts, cultivation methods, as well as sexual misconduct, of the Lamaist practitioners.

http://www.a202.idv.tw/English/Book2013/2013.htm
Behind the Façade of Tibetan Buddhism

One one of our commenters sent us this corroborative text and link:

 

If you think that The True Enlightenment Education Foundation might be exaggerating the claim of tantric couple copulation as the main practice for “enlightenment” on the Tibetan “Buddhist” path, then here’s something very current (Nov. 2013) from one of their top dogs, The Sharmapa, Shamar Rinpoche:

In the Vajrayana, once you have become a highly qualified Vajrayana practitioner – like Tilopa or Naropa – then being in union with a qualified female practitioner in special retreat conditions is actually the key practice for enlightenment. Therefore, this is one of the main reasons why the Theravada tradition does not accept the Mahayana and Vajrayana as genuine Buddhist paths. They also tend to regard Vajrayana practices as being Hindu in nature.

The whole interview makes for interesting reading: http://www.shamarpa.org/index.php?id=6&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=60&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=5&cHash=bbbf9eed27

388 Responses

  1. Thank you very much for your confidence, Dialogueireland, but there are some reasons why I think it is impossible for me to explain Wendy why she is on a very wrong way. The first reason is that I’ve never been in Tibetan Buddhism and so I have no deeper insight in this cult and its teachings and doctrines. For me it is not necessary to know a lot about it because I’m sure women are abused by methods we find in modern research in terms like hypnosis, traumatization, other states of consciousness and mind-control. A cult member like Wendy, deep involved in teachings and convinced of having found her right way of spirituality, can’t see the bad and dark side of this whole theatre. Every critical opinion is find as a nuisance, modern terms as I am using are ignored and the most widespreaded argument is that these abusing Lamas/Gurus are exceptions. Some time I’ve stopped to clear up devotees of Tibetan Buddhism. I’m writing and explaining to warn people not to join with these cults. If Wendy wants to have a look at the other side of the wall she should start with reading the Trimondis. These two people have written a book of the century and that is not an exaggeration. A reviewer by “amazon” wrote in the context to the German version that all is right the authors have explained, BUT STILL WORSE. Another reviewer told that she had to practice tantric rituals with her Lama. She also wrote, nevertheless she was not able to leave this cult because fear and threat kept her in the line. Who is able to understand German should read it.
    I think, to see the truth is simply impossible for cult members. First there must be a motivation to have a look at others like the Trimondis, goldsun or me. Then I have to allow myself that this knowledge of the others is not fallen from heaven or nonesense but the result of intensive search and of a lot of experiences and inner and external dealing with one of the most difficult problems in this world, and that also is not an exaggeration. I shortly only want to say, if the techniques of unethical hypnosis go around the world it will be one of the greatest dangers mankind has to cope with.

    I absolutely agree, goldsun, when I think of the therapists “trained” by Tibetan Buddhism or Tantric Hinduism.
    A German psychologist who knows a lot about hypnosis and mind-control and who wrote a book on this subject once explained that there are two ways to the subconsciousness of human beings. One is the psychoanalytic way with free association, the other way is with hypnosis. My experience says the hypnotical way is more intensive, much shorter and one can’t proof anything if the “therapist” has worked with suggestions and post hypnotical orders which were not all right.
    I think, western therapists know about the “techniques” of the Lamas/Gurus, perhaps not exactly but they know that there are ways to manipulate others into certain directions. That’s what drag them to these charlatans.

    Some time ago I researched for hypnosis in the internet. I found a website of hypnotherapists. They offered all one can want. Liberation from smoking, to reduce the wight etc., and then I nearly was fallen from my chair, they work with hypnosis to intensify the sexual feelings of the client and make them more sensitive. That means they lead the client in another state of consciousness and manipulate him with new informations to his sexual feelings. I only can say they don’t know what they are doing, most of all because science doesn’t know until today the way from the informations of the hypnotists words into the waking consciousness of the client.

    Now back to the Lamas/Gurus. I’ve written about these hypnotherapists because that’s what the Lamas/Gurus are doing in their own bodies and sometimes in the bodies of the women. These therapists have already learnt very well.
    Tantric sex as the Lamas/Gurus are practicing is always happening in other states of consciousness. In his book “Metaphysic of Sex” Julius Evola has explained it. It is not very pleasant for a woman to read Julius Evola but what he is writing about Tantrism and tantric sex is absolutely right. It is the coming controlling of women’s life. In his chapter about Tantrism he describes that this kind of sex is nothing for “normal people” and that the woman is only the impulse to increase the state of arousal of the man. So there are three points why the Lamas/Gurus have abusing sex, why they always need women and why this kind of sex is ABUSING and not sex between two grown people. 1. To intensify their sexual feelings in other states of consciousness. 2. To absorb female energy in these states. Absorbtion is a term of hypnosis and means a state of highest attention. 3. To reach the state of bliss. The woman’s only job is to prepare this way.

    I am sure, a lot of these Lama/Guru educated “therapists” know about these things, especially men. It is the base of tantric sexual teachings, and a lot of people are very interested in it.
    The Lama/Guru machine of therapists in Germany is rolling on more slowlier than in the US but it is coming up too.

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  2. What is really going on inside these cults:

    ” I was half-way through Guru-Yoga when the news broke about Osel Tendzin (Trungpa’s regent) infecting an unknowing student with AIDS. Tendzin offered to explain his behavior at a meeting which I attended. Like all of his talks, this was considered a teaching of dharma, and donatins were solicited and expected. So I pai him $35.00 to hear his explanation. In response to close questioning by his students, he first swore us to secrecy (family secrets again), and then said that Trungpa had requested him to be tested for HIV in the early 80’s and told him to keep quiet about the positive result. Tendzin had asked Trungpa what he should do if students wanted to have sex with him and Trungpa’s reply was that as long as he did his Vajrayana purification practices, it did not matter, because they would not get the disease. Tedzin’s answer, in short, was that he had obeyed the instructions of his guru. He said we must not get trapped in the dualism of good and evil, there has never been any stain, our anger is the compassion of the guru, and we must purify all obstacles that prevent us from seeing the world as a sacred mandala of buddhas and bodhisattvas”

    “From the Double Mirror: A Skeptical journey into Buddhist Tantra- by Stephen T. Butterfield.

    I was there at the meeting that Stephen refers to , he tells the absolute truth, but he was seen as a heretic in Vajradhatu for writing this book Vajradhatu (now Shambhala international community that Naropa is still graduating these newly minted cult members of tantric vajryana with they psychotherapy and yoga cult degrees to go out and fool the world with this nonsense that has resulted in people’s deaths an vast sexual abuse of women and sometimes, if the guru is homosexual, men. The little boys in the monasteries are often sexually abused by other monks. These are people coming from the 11th century medieval mentality. Now there are thousands of vajrayana tantric influenced “psychotherapists” out in the world spewing out this nonsense, it is why these ‘kundalini therapist’ shrugged. That is there response to everything, to shrug, nothing happens, all is an illusion. That is why this is so very dangerous to western culture, It is the biggest and most embraced cult of thought control in our midst, Tibetan Lamaism disguised as Buddhism and our western cultural institutions are giving it their imprimatur.

    I also suggest reading Nancy and John Steinbeck (the son of the author) and their book “The Other Side of Eden” for how crazy it was in Trungpa’s cult, the Lama that started the whole thing here, an who has been whitewashed and quoted (yes on Wendy’s site) as the father of Tibetan Buddhism, whose goal was to destroy democracy , which he hated and told us so many times.

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  3. Wendy you have certainly got a response. How do you deal with this? It seems what you call TB is really a sex cult, what the German philospher called Lamaism. As I told you I have knowledge of Buddhism. However, monitoring this debate since 2009 the penny drpped in 20013 when Chris Chandler joined this discussion and the shit hit the fan. You get tough love from her which shows what you are involved with is in fact anti woman, unreformed Hindu Tantricism. It involves feudalism and assuming you grew up in a Chritian group hell realms that make Chritian ideas about it look like a kindergarten. You of course know the DL totally endorses Sogyal. Look at the video from a few years ago with Carla Bruni with a see through blouse. All the guys on thrones. A virtual game of thrones. Even I can see it has nothing to do with Buddhism.

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  4. When the western world wakes up from their “spell” that these Lamas and Hindu gurus have purposely been putting over them for the past 40 years it will not be pretty. It will take, however, a critical mass of people who have been abused by these people, or who have witnessed and experienced this nonsense first hand and saw through it, to speak out. Our colleges and universities are being overrun now by political correctness and massive conformity and the undermining of free speech and these Tibetan Lamas and their medieval nonsense are deeply embedded in these universities, ( The University of Wisconsin in the States is an operation of the Dalai Lama) and/or have their cult devotees deeply embedded in psychology and other departments. so it is critical that we speak out against these abuses and more and more people have to be willing to do so. Because these people are here to destroy our western freedoms ( Trungpa told us all to infiltrate to create an ‘enlightened dictatorship” that is what we were told to do by stealth, that is what Naropa is continuing to do) to destroy rational thought and western reason. These people are not are not sane they are crazy and believe that their gurus are omniscient and are to be obeyed and can do no wrong, as they bow and prostrate to them, believing this nonsense of ‘footprints’ in rocks’ and rainbows and blessings and calling it dakini power when it is massive sexual exploitation promoted by the classic enablers of the abuse who are getting more air time than the whistle blowers. I know that you are speaking out , and calling a spade a spade , there will be others, and we have to model it, because there is is more at stake than people know. They do not know how deeply this kundalini tantra and tantric vajrayana has penetrated western thinking at our so-called university level or how they have hypnotized people with their occult practices so that there minds are so compartmentalized that they can still sound ‘reasonable and articulate’ but are stone cold cult members with PHd.s That is very dangerous to a whole society. And there are now thousands of them with Phds and Masters degrees, setting up shop, from these tantric programs, believing they are creating a “new world” instead of cult-inspired fascism with a smiley face. .

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  5. Christiane: There are now thousands of these “kudalini yoga therapists” and “vajrayana psychotherapists” who are guru worshiping con artists, who have actually been allowed to get licenses to practice their b….sh…t therapies, infused with the occult nonsense of tantra. Their should be an investigation of them .

    Here is just one example, of course he graduated from Naropa Institute, in Boulder Co where it all started and where Trungpa, who was a sexual abuser extraordinaire in his own sangha, and who Sogyal said he was modeling and wanted to have as many sexual partners as Trungpa:

    Thousands of these “therapists ” have been spewing out from these cult place of training in Tibetan Buddhism a.k.a. tantric varjayana, Naropa started, and lest we forget Trungpa’s regent infested many people with the AIDs virus because he was promiscuously assaulting male heterosexual consorts, so it is not just confined to women, tantra screws up everyone’s mind. Naropa, , a place that gets government grants now since it is a University. . And many universities that used to have good clinical programs are now offering “contemplative psychology programs’ this is an infestation in the psychology and psychiatry field by these guru worshiping psychologists, and is why the sexual abuse goes unreported . It is , in no small part causing the crazyiness and political correctness and mass gender confusion and push for polyamorphous relationships that we are seeing now in Europe and the U.S. in our academic universities. It is a hidden plague that these psychobuddhists are bringing into what used to be liberal institutions. This is how you bring down western civilization, by infusing it with occult crazy nonsense particularly around sexuality. When you combine sex and hypnotic mind control , as psychologists have known since the days of MK Ultra Mind Control experiments in the 50’s and 60’s, that they were part of , it is a very powerful mind control technique to confuse people’s sexuality and then brainwahs them. . That and using the profound group conformity that occurs inside these cults , like Tibetan Buddhism.
    .

    This guy is just one of thousands of these licensed ‘psychotherapists” an even psychiatrists, that are part of the cult of Tantra : The A. P.A. is endorsing this, but of course the A.P. A.-American Psychological Association has been overrun now by a critical mass of these insane guru worshipers and tantric cult members. IT became easy to get your license once the “Marriage and Family Therapy License precedent was set. . I am sure Europe is equally as infested with them as well: Imagine how powerful this is to have psychology overrun with these guru worshiping cult members who are pushing their nonsensical, occult nonsense, and has overridden good clinical skills that used to be the sine qua non of being a clinical therapist in the old days. This is what we have now, and we wonder why the whole world has gone insane? Look no further.

    Ravi Dykema – Yoga Therapist
    I am an advanced Yoga practitioner/instructor/therapist. I followed my soul’s yearnings and devoted four years in my early 20s to the study and practice of full-curriculum traditional Hatha and Tantra Yoga in an Indian ashram. The yoga system I studied included the preparation for and the arousal of kundalini energy. I experienced this arousal myself and witnessed dozens of others who successfully aroused their kundalini, too. During those years I taught professionally in India, and ran yoga centers in Colombo, Sri Lanka, and in southern Wisconsin. I was given the rare

    Ravi Dykema – Yoga Therapist

    titles, “Yogiraj” (Yoga adept), and “Yoga chikitsaka” (Yoga therapist), by my guru, Dr. Swami Gitananda of Pondicherry, India. Soon after my return to the USA in 1976 I continued my yoga teaching career with posts at the University of Wisconsin Green Bay and the University of Wisconsin Extension (statewide). From 1990 to 2005 I was Adjunct Professor of Yoga in the Traditional Eastern Arts Department at Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado.

    There I developed a fully accredited Bachelor’s degree in Traditional Eastern Arts with a Concentration in Yoga. That degree is still being offered by Naropa University.

    I am also the author of a textbook on yoga history, philosophy and practice, titled Yoga for Fitness and Wellness (Wadsworth 2005). I have been training students and maintaining a private practice in yoga therapy for 36 years. I have specialized in the treatment of disruptive kundalini energy.

    Contacting me
    ravi@nexuspub.com
    3330 Everett Dr.
    Boulder CO 80305

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  6. What these psychologist Phds and Wendy actually believe about their lamas, these people who are actually claiming to be scientific like her teacher Low, Phd, this is his teacher: C.R. Lama. This is their lineage and there are thousands of psychotherapists who are guru worshipers who believe this nonsense:

    Chimé Rigdzin Rinpoche (C. R. Lama) (1922-2002) was born in 1922 in the Kham Region of Tibet. When he was 4 years old, several lamas, including the Thirteenth Dalai Lama, Minling Trichin and Sakya Trinzin confirmed him to be the fourth incarnation of the great Tertön Nuden Dorje Dropen Lingpa.

    Chimé Rigdzin Rinpoche was enthroned at Khordong Monastery in Kham, Tibet at the age of 4. He was educated in mandala design, grammar, philosophy and tantra. At the age of 7 he began to display many miracles. It is said, that he left footprints in a rock and crushed a rock with his bare hand. Also at 7 he discovered his first terma.

    Rinpoche was considered to be the mind emanation of Padmasambhava.

    And where did I find this information? On the Rigpa site of Sogyal Rinpoche, who , of course endorses him and Wendy’s lineage. Dr. Low is on the mindfulness bandwagon as well of course. Dzogchen for those who are completely entrapped in Tibetan Lamaism, and the mindfulness meditation movement to suck in all the rest..

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  7. I also consider Namkai Norbu (not the lama I did the month long Dzogchen retreat ) one of the biggest hypocrites of all of them. He called out Tsultrim Allione for being a “feminist” in the 1990’s , excoriated her publically and in his books and with his sangha, and telling everyone that Dzogchen practitioners were not to be ‘political’ and basically to shun her (Tsultrim, who had been his student, was later silenced by being given a lama title as an emanation of a consort of Padmasambhava and that was enough to finally shut her up forever and join the crowd of female enablers with her own crown and throne.) and then Namkai Norbu- no stranger to bliss couple serial consorts himself- went and joined the ‘circle the wagon’ brigade with all the other celebrity lamas of every sect in 2011, after the Canadian documentary came out – “In the Name of Enlightement” -exposing Sogyal, Namkai Norbu had his picture taken with Sogyal, and wrote a letter endorsing him, quite happy to be part of the ‘political campaign’ and enabling massive protection campaign that every one of these weasel celebrity lamas engaged in. So much for him not being ‘political’. As usual these lamas just mean, ‘do as I say, not as I do.”

    Thanks to all these psychobuddhists of lamas, who have broken their vows as psychologists and psychotherapists , because their vows to their masters and gurus always takes precedent over the laws of their own land and their profession, Sogyal is still giving retreats, believing he is protected by ‘higher powers’ and certainly all the lamas, and the psycho-buddhists , like Wendy’s teacher, of course a psychologist and therapist and guru worshiper, who see themselves now as all above the law.

    I might remind them of the one of the first tenets of the Buddha’s teachings, “impermanence’ and nothing lasts forever. Neither will their con on the public and the endorsement of these sexual abusers.

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  8. Again, Wendy has already stated that she believes the reams of information and comments on this site, are “disinformation”. You cannot reason or dialogue with someone who is deeply in the honeymoon phase, which can last decades in a cult.- In reading her blog that is clear, she is in the blissed out phase and will not hear anything that contradicts the world she believes she has found that is the answer to every problem on earth. Even if I told her that I studied years of Dzogchen teachings, all the volumes of the Longchen Rabjam’s “The Precious Treasury”, and did many retreats with Dzogchen masters, including the getting an empowerment from Namkai Norbu an studied his teachings and knew his early students, (her lineage according to her website) and even did a month long “Dzochen Retreat’ studying the Flight of the Guruda, with 10 hours a day of Rigpa practice, and watched this lama , after years of fooling us that Dzogchen was not vajrayana tantra, he , like all of them , wove it back into the vajrayana tantra, had us reading the hell realms and prostrating to him , another priestly con artist , of the 1000 year con artist lineage of Tibetan lamas. None of that would matter to her, she is in the bliss bubble and is being suckered by the whole vast network that now includes thousands of psychotherapists, and ‘healers” of which she sees herself, who have been suckered into this sexually abusive cult. It has given them meaning and often a career as the low level ‘teachers’ of this new Dzogchen mask the lamas are using to sucker in these people. Wendy is not going to hear any of this, will dismiss my experience as someone who just “didn’t get’ it unlike her. Unless something traumatic happens to her, or she sees or experiences something herself, after years in this bubble that bursts it , it is a waste of time. In fact, as you know DI, according to the studies on cognitive dissonance, the more information available, that might actually burst the bubble of this TB con on people, the more people will dig their heels in and believe their fantasies even more deeply to prevent being overwhelmed by the truth starting to penetrate. So far be it for me to burst Wendy’s bubble , I couldn’t.

    We have been through this round and round “intellectual” dharma babble and linking and cutting an pasting texts of this tantra or another , or quoting these masters they are studying with to prove their point. Do you really want to go there again? I sure don’t.

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  9. Good points Goldsun and Christiane. Now would you engage with Wendy as I believe she is where you both were but is looking for answers behind her confusion and mixed messages?

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  10. Isn’t it amazing Christiane that when one is out out completely, and finally from this Tantric Cult of Hindu/Lamaism one can’t believe that so many are determined to stay in it? And now a whole segment of female enablers of this Hindu Tantra sexual abuse and misogyny- that are led around by their nose-rings by lamas and Hindu gurus, just as the illiterate peasants were in Tibet and still are in India, and they had an excuse, they are kept illiterate and remain in the 11 century. But these Western educated cultists? Who refuse to see what is in front of their noses. No wonder China sees the lamas usefulness.A cult is a cult, and when you are in it, by definition, you cannot hear anything that doesn’t support your cult entrapment. I am sorry you went through what you did with these so-called therapists , many who are now guru-worshiping cult members themselves now of tantric vajrayana that infiltrated into these “contemplative psychotherapy” and other helping professional programs. They should have their licenses taken away for what they have one and are doing. The lamas have been clever in targeting academics and psychologists to become their change agents and shills. That’s for sure.

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  11. Abused by Tantric Hinduism not by Tibetan Buddhism, but it is the same inhuman garbage, I began an odyssey to doctors, therapists and helpers. At some point I also came to a female Tibetan Buddhist, an expert on kundalini problems. (Tibetan Buddhism is quite silent on this energy and it knows why, during its Hindu guru friends in the mind are talking about it openly). I told her what was done to me, and thanks to the book of the Trimondis “The Shadow of the Dalai Lama” I knew a lot what had happened to me. So I asked her what she said about the misuse of their male colleagues. She shrugged her shoulders and said, “What shall one do” This is the literal translation of the German sentence: “Was will man machen?” One of the most stupid and inconsiderate sentences that you can say in German when one is concretely asking you something. She knew exactly what we were talking about and what is happening in Tibetan Buddhism; but she was more interested in my money for her questionable “Kundalini therapy”.
    Similar reports another victim of Tibetan Buddhism, who went to a female leading personality of TB and asked for help.
    The same sex knows all about these abuses and maltreatments, it knows that hypnosis and energy working are applied, it knows that women are sexually abused and manipulated in their other states of consciousness. And they let other women run in their misery and shrug their shoulders.

    Western women needn’t learn anything about the dharma, they needn’t “researching from authenticated sources”, what they need is a good clearing up of Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Hinduism, of the true contents of these misogynist sects, of the terrible sexual and mental abuse, of the possibilities to manipulate women and their nervous system in other states of consciousness by hypnosis. They also MUST know, that a lot of women in Tibetan Buddhism support their Gurus in their cruel behavior in form of being silent and ignoring the destiny of the maltreated women.

    We slowly have to find western terms to explain what really is happening. So we can say good bye to Dharma, Dakini, Tara etc.

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  12. It’s useless to argue with these people . They are the bandwagon group that are now teachers of Dzogchen. That this person has her own website -a website that takes “donations” of course- pontificating dharma $ self help online -indicates she already sees herself as an expert on these subjects. There are thousands of these dharma experts now with there own websites with rainbows and the ANSWERS. They will never engage in the issue of the sexual abuse itself but use dharma texts to obscure what’s obvious to the ordinary people with common sense who have never heard the word “dzogchen”.

    To engage with her would be another waste of time. You are dealing with cult members who will spout off dharma babble to avoid the elephant in the room. It is just the “intellectualism” defence against facing the truth that they are enabling a sexually abusive cult and teachings embedded in a culture of priests still living in the 11th century.who see women as birthing vehicles for their tulkus. These are the same women I had to deal with in my sexual abuse cases that would defend the patriarch abusing his daughters in a religious sexual abuse family system.

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  13. Following on from my earlier post.
    Just to illustrate how difficult it can be to get to the heart of the matter…i carried on looking for the words from the video in the text that you see if you click the link in the post above and failed to find them. But whilst reading i realised, though i’m no expert, that this translation of the text itself seemed very odd.

    It was carried out by Kosho Yamamoto.
    and is qualified by Stephen Hodge (who is an expert) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Stephen_Hodge
    as being a “sadly unreliable, though pioneering, attempt”.[20]

    This translation is of just one of the versions of the sutra, one to which much has been added, according to the Mahaparanirvana entry in Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahāyāna_Mahāparinirvāṇa_Sūtra
    but there is nothing else available in English apart from a partial translation (vol.1 of 4 projected volumes) by Mark Blum

    As you can see from the link below there is on-going scholastic work on the transmission, translation, and interpretation of all the available material for this sutra…. the apparent quotation in the video looks to be a fabrication…references would be appreciated.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20131219063612/http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/fileadmin/pdf/publikationen/The_Textual_Transmisssion_of_the_MPNS.pdf

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  14. Just wondering about some of the posts above …its seems that some unpleasant disinformation is happening which is not hard to check out

    For ‘corroboration’ we have a video which speaks of the Mahaparanirvana sutra volume 7.

    Wikipedia has a good little article about this sutra which shows that the name of this sutra is often shortened to the nirvana sutra.

    A quick google search shows that if you go to http://www.nirvanasutra.net/convenient/Mahaparinirvana_Sutra_Yamamoto_Page_2007.pdf
    you will find a translation of a version of this sutra in 565 pages (edited in 2007) shown as coming from volume 12 in the Chinese collection.

    I cannot comment on the accuracy or quality of the translation but If anyone can find the words quoted at the beginning of the video within this text, or any other version of the sutra please let me know….because i haven’t found them.

    If you are unused to reading texts like this it will be hard work to read, its long, the language is archaic and it will require some knowledge of the dharma for it to make sense and to interpret it correctly.

    Perhaps before one can offer an opinion which is hopefully genuinely meant to be helpful, about what goes on in the dharma as with anything else, it is necessary to have the clearest understanding from the broadest perspective we can manage. Researching from authenticated sources, checking for bias and keeping an open mind.

    Surely there is no point in debating with people who have fixed views, but if there is genuine curiosity then some real communication can take place and we may learn from each other.

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  15. I would bet money Lotus force you are faking being non English speaking. A deconstruction of your posts make this obvious as does the Lamaist stance of accusing others of being deceptive when it is you.

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  16. Lotus Force please let me go on holiday….leave and do a course in Mandarin or Stalinism

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  17. Lotus Force, Can I suggest a therapist to help you deal with your withdrawal problems. You can’t resist coming back everytime you are shown to be off target. If you even speak Chinese which I doubt all you do is look at the background. What were you expecting from a state that is Atheist? A picture of the Virgin Mary.

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  18. DI “Buddhism thank you for the comment I can now leave Lotus to the locusts”

    hahah..it appear that you already knows what I am saying correct, so you want to reach me personaly…This is the loser way who doesn’t have any reasoning any more…finish..I leave this thing till here..as I have clarified everything

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  19. I decided to post after I saw a desperate attempt to twist what I am saying…so to clarify the point for the readers

    I didn’t say they are talking about politics, the fact they are invited in China and appear in Chinese government Tv say a lot about their connection with China, it doesn’t need a smart person to see this thing

    even when they are talking, they are putting communist figures, like stalin, it doesn;t need for us to understand for their connection with china by deliberatly speaking about politics…famous quote saying the smart understand from the sign…so again, I leave it here for the honest researcher, it is appear for me increasingly that this blogger not at all about any honest research, the policies for this blog has been chosen already, and the blogger don’t want to do research about it…he want to continue with his campaign…I am posting this one for the reader actually, not for blogger, because of the reason I have mentioned…finish from here

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  20. Buddhism thank you for the comment I can now leave Lotus to the locusts

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  21. P.S. I am also goldsun, formerly hookknife ( I recently changed my moniker on wordpress) If you don’t post after a long time it will come in as anonymous, or If you comment using a different account than the one before, it will come it with that name i.d. Chris Chandler is what comes in when I comment using my facebook account.

    Just trying to cut off at the pass the next attacks that I am trying to hide anything, or that this is proof I am a CCP spy, or an NKT agent, or a secret Christian really, all things I have been accused of by people who never use their real names while going on the attack. I must, of course be discredited for telling the truth about TB as a ex-cult member. Very dangerous to the cult members who must discredit me of course even though I am telling the truth as they well know and are too cowardly or too ignorant of even what they are loyal too, while defending the sexually abusive cult of the Lamas, as shills for the spread of Lamaism, which will destroy every country it touches as it did in Tibet, turning that country into deep fragmentation an a brutal, cruel regime of gross poverty, slavery , both mental and physical, using the Tibetan people as these Lamas stlll are , by keeping them enthralled mentally, even thought they are now free, so much so they are setting themselves on fire for their Kundun and his false Free Tibet, just using them for his continued “victim status ‘ in the west, when he and the Kagyu lamas have been colluding with China for decades. Anyone who is not trying to wake the Tibetan people up from this cult, and the western people who have fallen under the net of their tantra, are enablers of abuse and exploitation, unwittingly or not. Whether they are communists, social democrats, republicans or say they live in a democracy. The lamas are trying to create a theocracy by stealth, their cruel and despotic and sexually abusive misogynistic theocracy by stealth an deception, as their Law of Inversion allows. They are the ultimate racists, because they believe they are superior to the whole human race.

    Like

  22. Thank you Buddhism. It is clear that Lotus Force does not speak Chinese and put this up to defame you. Perhaps he hoped to leave us with the impression you were politically motivated. China is a country that has a one party state. This is a government that is based on Atheism. However, it is interesting that they have the mass murderer Stalin in the background. That has hardly anything to do with True Enlightenment Foundation. Lotus Force try to up your game and talk to Tenpel who is an expert in proxies. In the meantime would you mind letting me have a summer holiday.

    Like

  23. The subject matter of this video is about Buddhism.

    Under the Chinese title of “Spreading Chinese Traditional Culture – An interview with Taiwan Buddhist True Enlightenment Practitioners Association”
    弘扬中国传统文化 走进台湾佛教正觉同修会 《中国网》中国访谈:

    The whole content of the interview is about the Buddhist final goal of attaining Buddhahood and the most important concept is the eighth vijnana which is the matrix of Buddhist teachings.

    There are a total of eight photos and two big TV screens decorated as the background, so it’s better to ask the studio manager why he put those photos up, and why eight of them?

    Anyone who is able to speak Chinese can easily understand the context of the video, it’s about Buddhist culture, and there is not a single word mentioning politics.

    Hope this blog can show the Chinese title.
    Thank you.

    Like

  24. We have sent it to a Chinese speaking person in Taiwan to get the background to this video.

    Like

  25. It is in Chinese and he said he “guessed” it was Zengjue. I tried to translate but couldn’t. Also , for someone so concerned about this Foundation’s political connections he cares not at all that the ones he is defending are intimately connected to the CCP and have been for decades while the Tibetan people continue to set themselves on fire to be free on “Chinese oppression”. That always just goes right over the heads of the lama lovers , like a thick dark cloud they never notice.

    Personally, I don’t care who is trying to debunk these lamas because they are dangerous to communist countries, democratic countries and everything in between. More dangerous to communist countries because if they have a religious arm, combined with Han Buddhist, particularly spearheaded by these lamas, it will censor them and exploit them like the days in Old Tibet, but with a more smiley face. , their will be no hope of any freedom. It will be another 1000 years of censorship combined with terrible superstitious nonsense.

    Corporate capitalist Communists and Corporate Capitalist democrats equals totalitarianism and now with a religious arm.

    Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World Revisited., .

    Like

  26. Chris what was that link all about from Lotus Force? Considering Goldsun’s translation of Lotus, does not Force have a rather dangerous connotation?

    Like

  27. Funny Lotus force that you have absolutely no interest in the massive documentation of the kagyu Tibetan lamas and the Dalai Lama being in collusion with the Chinese government while they let their own people light themselves on fire for a free Tibet. You weren’t interested in that info at all although you claim to be concerned about the CCP s involement elsewhere. Of course you aren’ t you better scuttle away now.

    Like

  28. When I am browsing internet today, I found something very interesting, which is further evidence prove that the true enlightment foundation is a group linked to China

    http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/F6JeOfNwlM0/

    I guess one of these two guy is zhengjue, being interviewd by official China’s TV…you could even saw stalin picture as they are talking…which is clear communist propaganda intending

    I won’t post again, I put this for any honest researcher who is searching this topic, it would be helpful as I found new information..thats it..finish

    Like

  29. I forgot to mention the victim race baiting attacks that these trolls use. Confusing Tibetan people, with Tibetan lamas. Then hysterically distorting what is said, when lotus = padma= vagina in Tibetan Lamaism “twilight language” to disguise what is being said. Just as “white bodhicitta” means sperm in Lamaism, so saying the white and the red bodhicitta mix to move up the chakras in the visualizations in tantra, is code language for sperm and female fluids mixing together and moving up an imaginary chakra system to the top of the head, for Shakti, which is HIndu, not Buddhism.

    I was once told in Boston group when a lower lama who was giving one of the teachings for the high lama Phuntsok Rinpoche from Tibet, who was allowed to come and teach by the Chinese government, part of their Lama indoctrination program of westerners, explicitly that one could not reach enlightenment unless one was still sexually active and able to perform the bliss couple practices. That is doctrinal in Tibetan Lamaism, , which this probable troll Lotus force, is trying to cover up for here with his attacks an disinformation an distraction. . This lama was not censoring with twilight language because he didn’t know the code language for the west , who has to be kept in the dark at all cost, since he was just here for the first time.

    He also told us that we were the Shambhala warriors (this was Trungpa’s group) who would be coming back, i.e. reincarnated, to fight in the Kalachakra war against Muslim and other Semitic religions when the Adi -Buddha world was going to usher in the Age of Maitreya of a thousand years. Again, he , wasn’t politically correct yet, and told it like it really was in this cult of the Lamas, which is not Buddhism, but about power and world empire for the lamas, to recreate what they lost in Tibet. That is the true meaning of the Dalai Lama’s Kalachakra Wheel of Time Empowerment to create a force for their belief that there will be a WW III and they will emerge as the victors. That is why they are building out all over the world now.

    Also, since when is vagina a dirty world.? Or that anyone is accusing you of sexual abuse, although, of course it is rampant in Tibetan Buddhism with the high lamas, an their advanced students. Interesting Lotus force that you think vagina is a dirty word, but since the vagina is considered the gate of all suffering in Tibetan Buddhism, as birth is suffering and women are the cause of all suffering, because of giving birth, you are revealing more than you know.

    I have analyzed your posts an believe that you may be pretending to be Tibetan or Asian, with broken English, Your posts are peppered with very correct English form and a pretend broken English, which becomes obvious when one reads them.

    You are more than likely another troll, trolls whose deceptions are becoming so obvious, that and your hysterical reactions pretending offense, using race baiting tactics, and accusing Dialogue Ireland of taking away free speech while trying to censor all free speech on this site by not citing references, nor facts to document you CCP accusations, You are all so boring and obvious now, do you know that? That is the trouble about being in a cult for years, you just don’t realize what becomes obvious to others when they are no longer looking through the looking glass , from the inside of the cult anymore.

    Like

  30. Lotus Force, again the answer is in his/her moniker. Vagina force , which means he may know a lot about the sexual abuse in TB,

    Do you acknowledge that your Moniker means this?

    FREE SPEECH? I think its getting ridiculous…you are approving words calling me sex abuser..vagina!!! and talking about free speech!

    Lotus Force where are you accused of being a sexual abuser? What is claimed is by using that name according to a Buddhist expert you reveal your knowledge of sexual abuse. Please take a deep breath.

    Like

  31. DI “You are back and now asking us to censor free speech do you work for the Government of the CCP?
    Get a life, this is what your moniker means. If you do not wish to operate here we would ask you to move on. We have answered all your issues.”

    FREE SPEECH? I think its getting ridiculous…you are approving words calling me sex abuser..vagina!!! and talking about free speech!

    thats getting dirty and nasty…so I will stop from posting here…the site has shows its true face

    bye

    Liked by 1 person

  32. DI Wrotw “Interesting enough Lotus Force in earlier posts did seem to concede that Couple sex is a part of TB=Lamaism. Now he says it is not?”

    you seems dont understand what I am saying…I have just repeated tens of times that SOME OF them do it…you don’t understand that thing, and keep thinking in a very narrow minded that all Tibetan Buddhist is just one tradtion or sect..which is not at all

    DI wrote “Goldsun thank for taking the time to give very clear background to the points I made.”

    huh you are happy with his personaly insulting post!!! if these personaly insulting posts goes on…i will stop wasting my time from here

    DI Wrote “I have no campaign against TB”

    really? all of these non-discrminitive accusation that every single tibetan buddhist is sex tantric abuser! is not a campaign? hard to see that

    Di wrote “You seem to suggest that I may not be a Buddhist but have understood the nature of it?”

    No,I am saying if you not buddhist, you won’t understand many thing in Buddhism, Therefore, you can’t say who is buddhist and who is isn’t

    DI Wrote “which do and which don’t clarify?”

    I don;t know for sure many teacher in names personaly, which is not involving in this thing, but generaly, I am sure thats a lots of traditions don’t do this thing, like Lama Zopa Rinpoche, he is very strict in his traditon, and he doesn’t involve in any of these things, like sex or meat etc..and he to be included with your generalizing campaign is not faire, and wrong

    DI Wrote “Lotus Force you are very abusive in debate. Here is your last offering which totally distorts what I wrote which underneath it.”

    you did write that the chinese government are right to abolish tibetan buddhism because its believe that its a feudal system…whether it is feudal system or not, no body on earth have the right to abolish the faith of the tibetan people…simple as that

    again, if the discussion contiune attacking my personaly, I will stop replaying from here

    Like

  33. Also do you need to to hide behind a proxy? Could you have been part of the stasi ops we had a few years ago? Where did you do your military training?

    Like

  34. you are vulgar enough not to respond to…instead of replaying in civilised way, keep attacking me personaly…this is the language of loser..it must be censored if this website is genuin

    You are back and now asking us to censor free speech do you work for the Government of the CCP?
    Get a life, this is what your moniker means. If you do not wish to operate here we would ask you to move on. We have answered all your issues.

    Like

  35. DI “That is the problem you have given a link to a forum but not to an actual link which gives evidence for your position. You keep repeating that you have given evidence. If you do not supply this evidence we will delete your claims from now on.”

    you still speak about that forum and ignore other links I have been posted, which is not from forumosa forum..this is just further proof you didn’t read my posts…I don’t see why I must waste my time when my posts hasn’t been chicked

    DI “That is the problem you have given a link to a forum but not to an actual link which gives evidence for your position. You keep repeating that you have given evidence. If you do not supply this evidence we will delete your claims from now on.”

    ALL links are in your website here, its not secret or hiddin, but you don’t to bother read it…I will paste it here again, to expose your climes

    Lotus force Wrote “This is Chinese propaganda website added the same series of “is lamaism Buddhism?” that is found in foundation’s website
    and they even have link for protest by this organization
    http://multipletext.com/listlama.htm

    here further proof this is CCP propaganda website

    http://multipletext.com/2009/5_tiananmen_incident_encounter.htm

    “The Sanmiao people settled along the banks of the Cizhi River (the bend of the Yellow River in the eastern part of today’s Qinghai). They lived in a range from western part of Gansu in the east to the source of the Yellow River in the west, from the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau in the south to the middle part of Xinjiang in the northwest”

    http://tantrismuskritik.blogspot.com/2013/04/seeing-through-lies-and-wedges-of.html

    really XinJiang? what this have to do with Buddhism? they clearly speak about ethnicity and politics…it have ZERO thing to do with Buddhism or Tibetan Buddhism!
    its so much political website, no real Buddhist website would speak like this, if you browse their site, you will find much more…you understand that Karmapa is linked to China with much less obvious signs then this group…I didn’t understand how you couldn’t spot this like the Sun, very obvious sign….which any average person could easily spot it”

    so you saw it now finaly? you must have problem with your eyes for making you unable to read it

    Like

  36. Goldsun “Lotus Force, again the answer is in his/her moniker. Vagina force”

    you are vulgar enough not to respond to…instead of replaying in civilised way, keep attacking me personaly…this is the language of loser..it must be censored if this website is genuin

    Like

  37. And by the way DI, one of the subterfuges I have notices the TB trolls use now , is to always preface or sprinkle their remarks with saying ‘they are not Buddhist” or they are not Tibetan Buddhist. How does one know they are usual TB ers coming on here to attack anyone critical of their cult of Lamaism, because they are so transparent and not very good at debate. “Ha Ha” is also a meme that you find in their writings. It’s their form of “Gotcha”.

    Like

  38. Lotus Force, again the answer is in his/her moniker. Vagina force , which means he may know a lot about the sexual abuse in TB, and the round an round arguing and simply stating generalizations not facts, accusing others of not understanding Buddhism or Tibetan Buddhism when it is he /she that is illogical, talking in generalizations and nonsense. That which of course could be a mark that he is a TB and only has a very limited understanding of Tibetan Buddhism. Perhaps as an Tibetan in Exile, but feels qualified to dismiss any criticism about it using the same round and round irrational, innuendo, ad hominem attacks such as “CCP agent” etc. The same knee jerk reactions that all TB devotees use.

    And Lotus force, it is you that this keeping the Tibetan people down, those criticizing lamaism, are trying to free them from this cult religion of guru worship that has nothing to do with what the Buddha taught, and it seems you don’t understand that either, and that TB and the Dalai Lamas and lamaism is still keeping them down, so much so they are burning themselves up still for the Dalai Lama their GOD KING, who is colluding with China and only pretends to be in a fight with them for a Free Tibet.

    Already Hegel in the nineteenth century recognised that TB was not Buddhism. He gave it the name Lamaism. Now when critics are quoting the actual teachings of the lamas to debunk their cult doctrine, or you say that not all the lamas are engaged in sexual abuse, yes that is true, but they are working toward it in their endless purification practices to reach tantric sex, the mark of an advanced practitioner.

    The historical Buddha was trying to free the Indians from this Hindu Tantra and since you don’t know that all of TB is just that, brought to Tibet by Indian Yogis and an Indian Sadhu, Padmasambhava, and later the lamas incorporated the Hinayana and Mahayana, as a cloak for the tantra, then you know nothing and are just a fringe person. Or if not, a TB troll, keeping these round and round and round repetitions going. I suspect the latter because you are not even curious, you just want to argue and confuse and attack anyone that is critical of the Lamas and TB, the mark of a TB troll. Because you know so little about this cult religion, it is time you let the Westerners who actually got the highest teachings from these lamas, tell you what is really up with these lamas, because we gave them so much money and could be so useful to them. The lamas that only let the aristocratic monks and their families know their secrets in Tibet. But of course since you have been taught to disdain Westerners and western thought, as most of the world disdains an actively hates the west, the center of the real enlightenment that separated Church and State, and still does now, in no small part thanks to the Lamas who have taught westerners to hate themselves in their western sanghas. I would imagine from this discourse that you are not interested in learning what Tibetan Buddhism is all about. Certainly the illiterate peasants in Tibet did not know. They were forced to give up their male children to the lamas and their daughters for the lamas bliss practices. These dirty old men with young women as young as 11 years old, forced to only spin prayer wheels and say “om mani padme hum’ their whole lives so scare to death they were made to be by the lamas, who made sure they never protested their miserable conditions. Now they can be free, but will probably not chose to thanks to the hold this cult of the Lamas still has over them such that they are setting themselves on fire for their Kundun. Very very sad. But I understand completely. The guru worship of this cult runs deep and has a long history that will take generations to overcome. I only hope that is not true for the West.

    Like

  39. Buddhism wrote “Weird! All subjects are focused on the political issue.”
    will the enlightment foundation have bring political campaign, its their in their website as I have pointed in my previous comment

    (This not an intelligible sentence can you rewrite)

    DI Wrote “Buddhism he believes the Enlightenment group from Taiwan is a front for the Chinese communists.

    Yes, I shows tons of evidence, and it hasn’t been refuted yet

    That is the problem you have given a link to a forum but not to an actual link which gives evidence for your position. You keep repeating that you have given evidence. If you do not supply this evidence we will delete your claims from now on.

    DI Wrote “Why because they challenge Tantric sex”

    not at all, thats not what I am saying, its clearly you either havn’t bother to read my posts or changing what I am saying

    I have provide links above that has been shared by CCP website with foundation website..but you seems not bother to read it,

    I am now going to ask a representative of the True Enlightenment Foundation to give us an answer to this person showing that you have no involvement with the Chinese Communist Party?
    Also Goldsun can you understand what Lotus Force is saying?

    you want to continue with what you already decide to folllow the generalizing campaign against tibetan buddhism..you don’t want to look to another evidences

    I have no campaign against TB but I as those who advise me do not see it as Buddhism. I believe you have not grasped that point and have now introduced into an answer which is about the True Enlightenment Foundation. Produce the actual link or please leave the stage.

    Like

  40. Goldsun thank for taking the time to give very clear background to the points I made.

    I will leave a few of Lotus Forces’s comments here for you to answer as I seem to be going round in circles with him. You may of not read his earlier material but he claims t be a Korean Buddhist.
    I will not fill a full page but leave these questions in separate comments so it does not get too much text. You know how we have had people trying to kill off a post with excessive commentary.

    DI Wrote “Merely stating I am not a Buddhist so I can’t comment is a bit strange.”

    yes, that what I am saying, if you are not buddhist, there is many things you don’t understand, so you cannot make a judge what is Buddhist and what is isn’t

    You seem to suggest that I may not be a Buddhist but have understood the nature of it?

    DI Wrote: “Sex abuse is not nor has it been a part of Catholic teaching”

    it is same with Tibetan Buddhism, sex abuse is not part of its teaching

    Interesting enough Lotus Force in earlier posts did seem to concede that Couple sex is a part of TB=Lamaism. Now he says it is not? Goldsun you have again clearly demonstrated it is.

    Lotus Force you are very abusive in debate. Here is your last offering which totally distorts what I wrote which underneath it.

    DI wrote “They are right about that, but wrong to destroy the rights of the Tibetan people”

    so you want to forcefully to make Tibetan people give up their religion?
    its their faith, and no body on earth have the right to decide which faith they must practice!

    This is the full quote you are clearly not genuine.
    “The Chinese communist government could not care less what type of Buddhism it is. They are happy to it use for their own political purposes, namely keeping the lid on the demands of the people for greater freedom of religion and the ability to think for themselves. In Tibet they are trying to destroy TB as they see it as a remnant of feudalism. They are right about that, but wrong to destroy the rights of the Tibetan people. The DL is playing a double game but at 80 his game is up and the succession is firmly in the hands of China.”

    Lotus force wrote,

    “some yes use sex in their rituals!! other don’t”

    which do and which don’t clarify?

    Goldsun Lotus force does not seem to get it. What is called TB is in fact as the philosopher Hegel called it Lamaism. It is in that sense not connected to Buddhism but Tantric Hinduism. I have learnt this not by being a Buddhist but by examining the issue.

    thats what I am saying, generalizing is going too far..Tibetan buddhism is not one tradition or sect

    Like

  41. continued:

    The negative valuation of the female exists in all of Buddhism since that true in the societal context and historical time that Shakyanmuni Buddha taught . However the lamas and Tibetan Buddhism brought this misogyny to a level that was disguised as elevation and still does to this day:

    “In Vajrayana the negative attitude towards the feminine tips over into an apparently positive valuation. Women, sexuality, and the erotic receive a previously unknown elevation in the tantric texts, a deification in fact. We have nonetheless been able to demonstrate that this reversal of the image of the woman is for the yogi merely a means to an end — to steal the feminine energy (gynergy) concentrated within her as a goddess. We have termed the sexual magic rituals through which this thieving transfer of energy is conducted the “tantric female sacrifice”, intended in its broadest sense and irrespective of whether the theft really or merely symbolically takes place, since the distinction between reality and the world of symbols is in the final instance irrelevant for a Tantric. All that is real is symbolic, and every symbol is real!

    http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-1-12.htm

    Thus, it is no leap for the Dalai Lama to disguise himself as a feminist, and to cast his net of tantra over the third wave feminists and the naive so-called progressive liberals who have in general lost their reason and ability to judge anything as good or bad for society, anymore, they are now paralyzed at the highest levels of our western culture and politics after being influenced by these idealogies for so long.At every liberal college throughout the western world and where Tibetan Buddhism and these Hindu tantric influences have infiltrated , most clearly seen in the U.S. an absurd censorship an political correctness exists. This is exactly how it was inside these Tibetan Lama groups as is true of all totalitarian groups. One can see the confusion tantra purposely creates around sexuality most clearly in the U.S. where suddenly , out of nowhere, confusion over gender, and sexuality is being promoted as ‘openness’ and ‘liberal”.now. The U.S. is where the Lamas have had the most influence in our western institutions, and continue to do so starting at our prestigous universities. These are the people and groups that have been the most influenced by these Lama Hindu tantric memes, young college students, ( where many Western Tibetan Buddhists are on their faculty now) and who will be the future world leaders,. The Tibetan lamas , as all cults do, go to the young , those in their 20’s . This is a very vulnerable time for young people. The lamas net is very very wide now but their influence is there, for all the world to see, if they could take off the blinders and look. Lotus garden types are here to make sure people stay asleep. They may not even know that is their purpose being now shills of the lamas..

    Like

  42. Lotus force is either a TB troll, or a Tibetan Buddhist, or is coming from a Buddhist group that has incorporated much of TB vajrayana into its idealogy which is happening more and more as Tibetan Vajrayana has infiltrated into other Buddhist groups to create a world Buddhism, which is TB an the Dalai Lama’s and apparently now China’s goal.

    I say this because he is using the same attacks as all proponents and defenders of TB use to divert, confuse and attack the messenger:

    The first is usually that the person or group is a Chinese Communist agent, now ironic since it is well-documented that China and the high Kagyu lamas have been in collusion for decades to fool the west and other countries with pro-western leanings.

    Secondly, they always use the excuse that other religions, usually the Catholic religion rather than Zen for example, has sexual abuses, and by generalizing and distorting the aberrations in other religions, one doesn’t focus on the subject: the institutional sexual abuse, the “reason d’etre” of Tibetan Buddhism, which is about using the female and sexuality to create an omnipotent, androgynous master, with power over the world. Sex is used for power and control an manipulation in TB and to keep the female in her place forever, to keep the andocentric priesthood intact. It was better to have homosexual relations among monks than to sleep with a lowly woman who is seen as an obstacle on the path to enlightenment ( also present in the hinayana an mahayana teachings)

    These enablers of Lamaism, never deal with the facts presented, (most people who are engaged fully in TB don’t know the whole shadow side of TB because they only study what the lamas tell them until they get to the true teachings which are veiled in secret even inside the groups and was certainly kept from the Tibetan people who were kept illiterate by the lamas) they change the subject and go back to their simplistic tactics because they cannot deal with facts or an argument based on facts, they are only present to stir the pot, divert and confuse .

    Every Tibetan Buddhist group , because Tibetan Buddhism’s highest practices, which are covered over and at first hidden inside Hinayana and Mahayana teachings , are about sexual copulation and holding back the males semen and stealing the power of the female to 1. have complete control over female energy and to create their Adi-Buddha world.

    This is all well documented and as TB becomes emboldened to bring to fruition its world conquering plans, more and more people are waking up to what exists and what TB is all about.
    Even when a Western Tibetan Buddhist moves along in the teachings they are always told that the sexuality is symbolic until one gets to the higher practices as a sadhaka, and by then, one has been totally made a slave to the lamas an their guru yoga, that requires an oath to keep it secret. It is how these teachings remain veiled and secret because the western Tibetan Buddhists have been brainwashed completely to never reveal the secrets and believe by now that they are the special members of this cult that are on a fast path to enlightenment, when in fact, their compassion, their money, their labor their sexuality, if they are useful to the lamas and their higher practices, their reason an their good sense have been stolen and they are now just material for the Adi-Buddha world to be created:

    “The Dalai Lama never appears in the public light as a Tantric, but always as a Mahayana Bodhisattva, who thinks only upon the suffering of all living beings, and regards it with deepest compassion. Tantrism, upon which Tibetan Buddhism in its entirety is essentially based, thus belongs to the shadow side of the Kundun (“living Buddha”). His sexual magic rites shun the light just as much as the claims for global domination they intend. This is especially true of the Kalachakra Tantra.”

    “The aggression and morbidity of the tantra, the sexual excesses, the “female sacrifice”, the “vampirism” of energy, the omnipotent power claims, the global destructive frenzy — all of these are systematically disguised by the Fourteenth Dalai Lama, and can, even when the majority of the tantric texts are publicly available, be still further disguised — on the one hand by the argument that it is all only a matter of symbolic events that would never be conducted in reality, and, on the other hand, by the tantras’ claim that any negative actions have transformed themselves into positive ones by the end of the ritual.”….

    http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-1-12.htm

    When one has been in this with many lamas and their teachings, and maintains any sense of reason that is left, one looks back over the whole landscape and the sexual exploitation and deep misogyny an patriarchal reality (amazing that no one notices that these high lamas are always surrounded by their world of male monks) and the use of the female for Lamaism’s Machiavellian ambitions cannot be rationalized or denied anymore.

    These Lamas are as fundamental and as ambitious in their world conquering delusions as radical Islamists, it’s just that they use the Law of Inversion, ( http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-1-04.htm) and disguises to pretend that they are not throwing a tantric net all over the world. The world is in chaos right now, and these humble monks continue to play their part to usher in their Adi-Buddha world , out of the chaos. They are building out all over the world to be ready…..

    Those who refuse to see this become their cogs in their Wheel of Time , mere shills for the lamas and Lamaism, as Lotus Force is. Apocalyptic predictions of goal to emerge as tyrannically in charge as they were in ol’ Tibet.

    Lotus force is an interesting choice of names. Lotus is the twilight language for the vagina in TB, so it is apt. The Lamas are using the female vagina, literally , to conquer the world. For the lamas, the female is only a vagina for their world ambitions.

    Like

  43. Buddhism wrote “Weird! All subjects are focused on the political issue.”

    will the enlightment foundation have bring political campaign, its their in their website as I have pointed in my previous comment

    DI Wrote “Buddhism he believes the Enlightenment group from Taiwan is a front for the Chinese communists.

    Yes, I shows tons of evidence, and it hasn’t been refuted yet

    DI Wrote “Why because they challenge Tantric sex”

    not at all, thats not what I am saying, its clearly you either havn’t bother to read my posts or changing what I am saying

    I have provide links above that has been shared by CCP website with foundation website..but you seems not bother to read it, you want to continue with what you already decide to folllow the generalizing campaign against tibetan buddhism..you don’t want to look to another evidences

    Dit wrote “He clearly rejects Tantric Sex, but seems confused.”

    yes I reject tantric sex, the thing is NOT ALL TIBETAN BUDDHIST DO PRACTICE TANTRIC SEX OR ADVOCATE IT, ITS highly disputable and each tradition have different opinion regarding it…thats the thing you havn’t understand it yet…and generalizing this accusation is just wrong

    Liked by 1 person

  44. I will post again to clarify the misunderstanding as its requested

    DI Wrote “Merely stating I am not a Buddhist so I can’t comment is a bit strange.”

    yes, that what I am saying, if you are not buddhist, there is many things you don’t understand, so you cannot make a judge what is buddhist and what is isn’t

    DI Wrote “First of all the Popes did not cover up sex abuse”

    he did, the previous pope bendict, many victims has said so, to not tarnish the reputation of catholic church

    DI Wrote: “Sex abuse is not nor has it been a part of Catholic teaching”

    it is same with tibetan buddhism, sex abuse is not part of its teaching

    DI wrote “They are right about that, but wrong to destroy the rights of the Tibetan people”

    so you want to forcefully to make tibetan people give up their religion?
    its their faith, and no body on earth have the right to decide which faith they must practice!

    DI Wrote “I wish you well, and hope you clarify what it is you agree with and what you don’t”

    Thanks for your wish

    to make thing clear what I disagree with, is the judgement on whole Tibetan Buddhism with whole its monks, teachers to be all non-Buddhist!

    as you are not buddhist, you seems not aware that Tibetan Buddhism is a very vague tradition, For example, some Tradition are Vegetarian, like Lama Zopa rinpoche, some use meat in their rituals! some yes use sex in their rituals!! other don’t

    thats what I am saying, generalizing is going too far..Tibetan buddhism is not one tradition or sect

    Like

  45. Buddhism he believes the Enlightenment group from Taiwan is a front for the Chinese communists. Why because they challenge Tantric sex. According to him that shows support for Chinese attacks on Tibet. He is a supporter of Korean Buddhism. He clearly rejects Tantric Sex, but seems confused.

    Like

  46. It looks like someone has given vent to his political anger by posting on this DI blog! Weird! All subjects are focused on the political issue.
    Lotus Force just kept dodging DI’s queries!

    But this is not a political site, right?
    Hope lotus can have real peace in mind!
    Amitibha!

    Like

  47. I will only answer one question as you have again left at least 5 here.

    Lotus Force replied:

    DI wrote

    “THIS IS NOT A BUDDHIST SITE”

    haha yet make a judgement on all Tibetan Buddhist tradition for being non-Buddhist!!!

    DI Wrote “DL has covered up this sexual abuse of women as this practice is part of the consort sex”

    This is our mission statement: https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/about/
    Though Dialogue Ireland has its origins as a Christian organisation it is now open to all belief systems and none. All we require is that those working with us share a common understanding of cultism*.

    Again we concerned about undue influence:
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/about/cultism/

    Again you have missed the point. We as I have now told you are not concerned about the beliefs of TB, but about the manner they have brought western intellectuals, governments, Chinese government leaders and the Tibetan people to accept the practice of consort sex as part of the highest level of their religion. As a religion expert I am not concerned about the claims of the beliefs but am trying to get you to understand that TB=Lamaism is in fact Hindu Tantraism not Buddhism. You have agreed with this point earlier but seem to revert to the idea I am judging Buddhism. It is my information from those I consult with that this view is true. Merely stating I am not a Buddhist so I can’t comment is a bit strange.

    Finally,

    will, the pope also has covered up many of sexual abuses in catholic church…that doesn’t mean its because sex is part of catholic church practices!!!

    Your logic here is extremely confused. First of all the Popes did not cover up sex abuse. Which Pope are you referring to? Sex abuse is not nor has it been a part of Catholic teaching. It has been a practice by some clergy and is a terrible indictment of those who partake of it.
    However, this is the point the Dalai Lama and Sogyal support consort sex as part of the highest level of their faith. It is only as you wake up from your sleep that you will see the practice of this type of behaviour has no connection to Buddhism. This is why the True Enlightenment group wish to maintain the purity of Buddhism and I believe their analysis is spot on. The Chinese communist government could not care less what type of Buddhism it is. They are happy to it use for their own political purposes, namely keeping the lid on the demands of the people for greater freedom of religion and the ability to think for themselves. In Tibet they are trying to destroy TB as they see it as a remnant of feudalism. They are right about that, but wrong to destroy the rights of the Tibetan people. The DL is playing a double game but at 80 his game is up and the succession is firmly in the hands of China.

    so this is last post by me…I already showed everything that is very beneficial for the honest researcher Bye

    I wish you well, and hope you clarify what it is you agree with and what you don’t

    Like

  48. DI Wrote

    “You came on here because you were denied access on other sites because you tend to jump to conclusions and people do not have patience with you. I have now had you jumping from agreeing and then contradicting yourself.”

    from where did you get that conclusion from? you create up your own story, and want to justify it here why you won’t replay to the evidences I have give!?

    DI wrote

    “THIS IS NOT A BUDDHIST SITE”

    haha yet make a judgement on all Tibetan Buddhist tradition for being non-Buddhist!!!

    DI Wrote “DL has covered up this sexual abuse of women as this practice is part of the consort sex”

    will, the pope also has covered up many of sexual abuses in catholic church…that doesn’t mean its because sex is part of catholic church practices!!!

    DI Wrote

    “you claim to have given evidence that the True Enlightenment group are a front for the Chinese Communist government. You have posted a mass of material from a forum. I do not have the time to go through hours of text. Please develop your argument yourself and give documentary evidence”

    YES I did, and you havn’t yet give any thing to dismiss the evidences I have given here, and seems that you havn’t even read the links from foundation website and the other CCP website, which clear evidence for the link other than the forum quote

    and YES I give one quote from forum by someone who have blog specialy to smear tibetan buddhism even tibetan people…and when this person post suspecious replay when asked about the source of money from organization that she or he is member in, of course I will take it as part of the evidences, not the only though

    any way, it seems you already has make up your mind, and doesn’t bother to look up to other opinions and evidences, and investigate those information you took it, you want to treat the Chinese sources informations as absolute fact

    so this is last post by me…I already showed everything that is very beneficial for the honest researcher

    Bye

    Like

  49. Lotus Force again you claim to have given evidence that the True Enlightenment group are a front for the Chinese Communist government. You have posted a mass of material from a forum. I do not have the time to go through hours of text. Please develop your argument yourself and give documentary evidence. Quoting other people from Forums and saying you get a feeling is not evidence. So to be clear. Have an exact quote and the link.

    will I have give you in my previous post a VERY VALID Evidences shows their connection with Chinese regimes…so I wasn’t waiting a replay actually..any way…if you take their sources which is MAINLY CHINESE…you will gona have a very distorted and manipulated view on Tibetan Buddhism, which is not all real..the Chinese do interfere in this subject very heavily..Half truth is more dangerous

    its up to you at the end what to believe..just informed you

    Like

  50. Lotus Force I have asked you to only reply to one point in each comment. Here it is 3 again. I will in future not reply to you unless you follow that format.

    DI wrote “No our concern arises from Sogyal Rinpoche here in Ireland and the issue of his abuse of women.”

    like these abused occur in EVERY religious tradition and sect…its not fair to judge whole religion by some guy in Ireland who abuses his power.

    This is not about abuse in all religions or in Lamaism and sogyal Rinpoche. Did you read the article I sent you?
    Here we are only concerned that the DL has covered up this sexual abuse of women as this practice is part of the consort sex. So it is the cultist dimension of Lamaism, not who is doing it. It happens in other Religions, but not as part of the highest level of a religion. Untill you understand this you won’t get it.

    Like

  51. Lotus Force you wrote,

    Oh I thought you Buddhist..any way, if you aren’t Buddhist, then you couldn’t really make a whole judge on Tibetan Buddhism as being non-Buddhist!? The Vajrayana do vary very much from tradition to another…So I myself even being Buddhist won’t judge their whole tradition

    Have you read our mission statement? You came on here because you were denied access on other sites because you tend to jump to conclusions and people do not have patience with you. I have now had you jumping from agreeing and then contradicting yourself.
    THIS IS NOT A BUDDHIST SITE but one dedicated to cultism which you clearly have completely missed. We have no opinion on Buddhist beliefs. We could not care less what they believe. We view TB as Lamaism and a cultist group. We are not concerned whether people regard it as true Buddhism or not.
    We are given advice with people who regard TB as cultist, but we are not a forum to discuss Buddhism.

    Like

  52. DI wrote

    “No I am not in fact our blog is not based on religion but issues to do with undue influence”

    Oh I thought you Buddhist..any way, if you aren’t Buddhist, then you couldn’t really make a whole judge on Tibetan Buddhism as being non-Buddhist!? The Vajrayana do vary very much from tradition to another…So I myself even being Buddhist won’t judge their whole tradition

    DI wrote “No our concern arises from Sogyal Rinpoche here in Ireland and the issue of his abuse of women.”

    like these abused occur in EVERY religious tradition and sect…its not faire to judge whole religion by some guy in ireland who abuses his power

    DI Wrote “That is why I linked up with the Enlightenment folks as they were very strong on this. In fact I found then totally non political and I am a very political guy.
    Sorry I did miss all this material but you had buried it in a mass of text. Easy does, slowly slowly catchy monkey”

    will I have give you in my previous post a VERY VALID Evidences shows their connection with Chinese regimes…so I wasn’t waiting a replay actually..any way…if you take their sources which is MAINLY CHINESE…you will gona have a very distorted and manipulated view on Tibetan Buddhism, which is not all real..the Chinese do interfere in this subject very heavily..Half truth is more dengerous

    its up to you at the end what to believe..just informed you

    Like

  53. Lotus Force

    Well, I Follow mainly Seon Buddhism, and this school does regard Tibetan Buddhism as part of Buddhism, Though I personally agree that Tibetan Buddhism is only a small part of Buddhism, and that they mix Hinduism and Bon religion…some of them goes far to practice the hardcore tantric occult thing, such as sex, drink blood etc…however, not all Tibetan tradition or sects do these things..though I don’t know exactly how much these practiced is done…but guess not much..I don’t like the language of generalizing that is used to include all Tibetan people and their traditions and sects..usually this language is used for political purpose, the true religious people would speak specifically against particular teacher or sect, or tradition etc..unlike political

    So are you a Korean Buddhist? Or are you a follower of the Rev Moon?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Seon

    By the way, are you Buddhist? if yes, which school you follow?

    No I am not in fact our blog is not based on religion but issues to do with undue influence. We are not concerned about beliefs at all.

    What was your previous Tibetan school? Kagyu? who was the lama?

    No our concern arises from Sogyal Rinpoche here in Ireland and the issue of his abuse of women.
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2009/04/07/briefing-document-on-sogyal-rinpoche/
    At first I thought the NKT was the cult of TB, then I began to understand that TB is not Buddhism but Tantric Hinduism. That is why I linked up with the Enlightenment folks as they were very strong on this. In fact I found then totally non political and I am a very political guy.
    Sorry I did miss all this material but you had buried it in a mass of text. Easy does, slowly slowly catchy monkey

    Like

  54. Lotus Force I have no intention of replying to your long diatribes. The condition I placed on you was to do small posts of a few lines, not rambling pieces. Also I do not need a whole thread but the particular quote from the thread.

    http://www.forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.php?f=121&t=102003&start=480

    Like

  55. I did answer which buddhist school I follow..its simply there in my previous comment

    Like

  56. I have answered in my previous comment..check it

    I have asked you to take one issue at a time and respond to it. Here you have made a blanket statement.
    What did you answer in the previous comment? You could not have answered something I had not even written when you last commented. To be honest it was so long I will have to come back to it. Please reply to the issues I replied to 15 minutes before you wrote? Also I replied to you in this thread Western Tibetan ‘Buddhists’ – The New Manchurian Candidates you have now replied in this one.Tantric Couple Copulation Lamaism is not Buddhism

    Like

  57. I have answered in my previous comment..check it

    Like

  58. I will reply later but which Buddhism school are you a part of?

    Like

  59. Yes, English is not my first language, and yes there is difficulty to write in it for me

    DI Wrote:

    “Tantrismuskritk is not a follower of the so called True enlightenment foundation.
    As I understand it she supports the views of the Foundation, namely as she clearly declared TB is not Buddhism.”

    really? being EXACTLY like propaganda machine that is inline with True enlightment foundation doesn’t appear as mere someone who just share view?!

    In fact, he or she havn’t denied membership when asked in the same link I have posted before from forumosa forum http://www.forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.php?f=121&t=102003&start=480

    and the same person(tantrismuskritik) keep posting exactly same message together with another one calling her or himself Buddhsim in forumosa and admiting an apparent membership to the orgnization
    http://www.forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.php?f=121&t=102003&hilit=as+philosophy&start=70

    Its just very obvious that both Buddhism in forumosa forum and Tantirsmuskritik is an apparent part of propaganda machine by True enlightment foundation

    DI Wrote

    “All she claims to know is that TB is not Buddhism.”

    She got that thing from that organization

    DI Wrote

    “I gave you an extensive quote from her and she does not express hatred but a clear non political message that TB is not Buddhism. That is not hatred but a difference of opinion.”

    seriously? you havn’t check her posts or her blog? there is like a SUN, a very apparent hatred and racism toward tibetan people, that is extreamly similiar to chinese propaganda of anti-Tibetan! its very hard to distingue between the two in fact

    any sane person could see this thing very clearly

    DI

    “First of all she is not a member of True enlightenment Foundation so why does she need to explain their funding?”

    She is member as I have pointed above..and thats why someone in that forum has asked her about the source of money in that organization..and she replied in a very suspecious way as I have post the link before

    DI Wrote

    “Again it seems you wish to question it but why does she need to question it?”

    Of course I want to question it! any average foundation, organization etc…have to show their sources of money and be clear about it, just as normal legal practice…how about such foundation who is very suspecious? They seem have large sort of money, as their propaganda, posters,protests, books, brunches are wide in Taiwan, and of course in China, which clearly indicate they have large money to do all of that thing…and of course people will wonder from where they got all of this money, just as Indian government has suspected Karmapa when they found all of these cashes!!!

    just small sanity to understand these things

    DI Wrote

    “So if you are not a Tibetan by nationality or a Tibetan Buddhist why do feel the need to defend it?
    You claim to be a member of a different Buddhist school. Which one is that and what is that school’s view of Tibetan Buddhism and what is your view of consort sex?”

    well, True Buddhism havn’t teach us to be secterian people or racist people who only care about our own race? own sect? I care about tibetan as they suffer too much, true pracitioner of buddhsim would have compassion and concern for not only people, but all living being!
    thats how we supposed to be

    will, I Follow mainly Seon Buddhism, and this school does regard Tibetan Buddsim as part of Buddhism, Though I personaly agree that Tibetan Buddhism is smally part of buddhism, they mix hinduism and Bon religion…some of them goes far to practice the hardcore tantric occult thing, such as sex, drink blood etc…however, not all Tibetan tradition or sects do these things..though I don’t know exactly how much these practiced is done…but guess not much..I don’t like the language of generalizing that is used to include all tibetan people and their traditons and sects..usually this language is used for political porpuse, the true religious people would speak specificaly against particular teacher or sect, or tradition etc..unlike political

    by the way, are you buddhist? if yes, which school you follow?

    what was your previous tibetan school? Kagyu? who was the lama?

    DI wrote:

    “Can you show that they are a front for mainland China? I think you will find that they are trying to distinguish between TB and Han Buddhism. I see no evidence in any documentation I have read which suggest anything else?”

    Its really very obvious!!! their message is the same as CCP propaganda, they keep using all the time the Chinese sources, posting CCTV channel documentary!! haha this is laughable…no body would take them seriously while they keep using these same sources, and very same language that is used by the Chinese government, thats why I was long time dubious about these climes about tibetan buddhism, However, I spend long time researching this issue, and have looked to some legitimate sources that have nothing to do with chinese government, and concluded these practices exist, but not all tibetan do it as mentioned above, unlike the generalisation language used by chinese government

    any way, absolute evidence these groups connected to Chinese govenrment

    This is Chinese propaganda website added the same series of “is lamaism Buddhism?” that is found in foundation’s website

    and they even have link for protest by this organization
    http://multipletext.com/listlama.htm

    here further proof this is CCP propaganda website
    http://multipletext.com/2009/5_tiananmen_incident_encounter.htm

    “The Sanmiao people settled along the banks of the Cizhi River (the bend of the Yellow River in the eastern part of today’s Qinghai). They lived in a range from western part of Gansu in the east to the source of the Yellow River in the west, from the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau in the south to the middle part of Xinjiang in the northwest”

    http://tantrismuskritik.blogspot.com/2013/04/seeing-through-lies-and-wedges-of.html

    really XinJiang? what this have to do with Buddhism? they clearly speak about ethnicity and politics…it have ZERO thing to do with Buddhism or Tibetan Buddhism!

    its so much political website, no real Buddhist website would speak like this, if you browse their site, you will find much more…you understand that Karmapa is linked to China with much less obvious signs then this group…I didn’t understand how you couldn’t spot this like the Sun, very obvious sign….which any average person could easily spot it

    Like

  60. Again, True enlightenment Foundation!

    Can you show that they are a front for mainland China? I think you will find that they are trying to distinguish between TB and Han Buddhism. I see no evidence in any documentation I have read which suggest anything else?

    Like

  61. Here it is quite clear what the Foundation believes. It is not a conspiracy but based on their study of Lamaism.

    http://foundation.enlighten.org.tw/trueheart_en/26

    Like

  62. Lotus Force this is getting out of hand. So I will break it down into small bites.
    English is obviously not your first language as we do not seem to be using language in the same way.

    I am speaking about Tantrismuskritk, he is blogger, and follower of so called True enlightment foundation, he clime to know too much information about Tibetan Buddhism, and keep spreading hate based on this organization, yet he doesn’t know about the source of money in His Organization that he is member of? doesn’t even eager to know and doesn’t want to question it? as his answer in the forumosa forum

    Tantrismuskritk is not a follower of the so called True enlightenment foundation.
    As I understand it she supports the views of the Foundation, namely as she clearly declared TB is not Buddhism.

    He claims to know a lot about Tibetan Buddhism

    All she claims to know is that TB is not Buddhism.

    and keep spreading hatred about this organization

    I gave you an extensive quote from her and she does not express hatred but a clear non political message that TB is not Buddhism. That is not hatred but a difference of opinion.

    yet he doesn’t know about the source of money of this Organization that he is member of?

    (I am improving your English as in some cases it just is not clear.)

    First of all she is not a member of True enlightenment Foundation so why does she need to explain their funding?

    Doesn’t seem eager to know about the funding of the True enlightenment Foundation and doesn’t want to question it?

    Again it seems you wish to question it but why does she need to question it?

    I am not Tibetan, nor follower of Tibetan Buddhism, however, I follow different Buddhist school

    So if you are not a Tibetan by nationality or a Tibetan Buddhist why do feel the need to defend it?
    You claim to be a member of a different Buddhist school. Which one is that and what is that school’s view of Tibetan Buddhism and what is your view of consort sex?
    It is clear from this post what tantrismuskritik is about. It is clear and consistent.
    http://tantrismuskritik.blogspot.ie/2011/01/true-face-of-dalai-lama-playing-around_21.html

    Like

  63. ok

    Like

  64. Lotus Force take it easy. We don’t stay up all night. You are 3 hours ahead of us and my guess is you put more than one link in your comment. No need for paronia. It is held back till checked. Might do it later. Have a look at our commenting policy.

    Like

  65. why my comment is waiting moderation? previously, I could comment without moderation?!!! is there anything here afraid of?

    Like

  66. DI

    “It is not a conspiracy we have given you the evidence and it is very clear. What did you not understand about this?”

    IT IS CONSPIRACY THEORY, you believe that the Dalai Lama have secret agreement with China? and he is as will as other Tibetans is in full agreement with China? am I right? This is Pure Conspiracy Theory! doesn’t even have proper evidence to back it up

    Defination of Consiparacy Theory “:an explanatory hypothesis that accuses two or more persons, a group, or an organization of having caused or covered up, through secret planning and deliberate action, an event or situation which is typically taken to be illegal or harmful.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

    This is exactly what you believe in

    I will leave my comment on that link regarding your theory that China have secret agreement with Tibetans

    DI “Do you mean saying so is nonsense as saying otherwise is nonsense and is illogical. Please clarify?”

    saying the opposite of your theory that China do agree with Tibetan is nonsense in your point of view

    DI “I again repeat which Taiwanese organisation is in league with the Chinese?”

    of course the so called True enlightment foundation!

    “Tantrismuskritik » 22 Mar 2012, 10:21
    Wrote this and this is the consistent message of this blog:
    Your statements show that you mix the religious topic with the political one. The religious topic focuses on whether the Tibetan Buddhism matches the teachings of Buddha Shakyamuni.
    It’s meaningless to discuss the state of Tibet. As I read, your concern focuses much on the Tibetan politic, than I would like to ask: Why don’t you research the old Tibet under the rule of XIV Dalai Lama? How hardly the serfs have to work for the lamas? How terribly they are killed by the landlord hierarchy (= lamas) to offer their brains, their hearts, their hands etc. for the ritual ceremony of Tibetan Buddhism? How sadly the female serfs are raped by lamas? Why are there always bodies of death girls outside the lama monastery? If you never know about THIS, please go to research the history of Tibet (especially under the rule of Dalai Lamas) first, you will find out a new impression of Tibet.
    (For reference: The Story of Tibet’s Serfs 1-6: http://youtu.be/xBipTf8U-g8)”

    I didn’t understand? are you the same one as Tantrismuskritik? because you post his name as the one who wrote this message? please clarify

    Di “What nationality are you? Are you a Tibetan? We make no claims about Tibetan Buddhism because we do not regard it as Buddhism. In fact we claim it it is Tantric Hinduism and has no connection to Buddhism.”

    I am not Tibetan, nor follower of Tibetan Buddhism, however, I follow different buddhist school

    I am speaking about Tantrismuskritk, he is blogger, and follower of so called True enlightment foundation, he clime to know too much information about Tibetan Buddhism, and keep spreading hate based on this organization, yet he doesn’t know about the source of money in His Organization that he is member of? doesn’t even eager to know and doesn’t want to question it? as his answer in the forumosa forum

    Does this sound right? I guess this is suspecious enough to question this Taiwanese organization!

    DI “Which organisation? I will ask you one last time.”

    Again, True enlightment Foundation!

    Like

  67. DI so you believe some sort of conspiracy theory that China now is a good friend with Tibetan, and cooperating with them?!!!

    It is not a conspiracy we have given you the evidence and it is very clear. What did you not understand about this? https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2015/03/11/western-tibetan-buddhists-the-new-manchurian-candidates/

    and saying otherwise, is nonsense?

    Do you mean saying so is nonsense as saying otherwise is nonsense and is illogical. Please clarify?

    hahah..any way, what I am stating here is FACTS, and I am not some naive who have no idea about This Taiwanese organization

    I again repeat which Taiwanese organisation is in league with the Chinese?

    Most of Taiwanese as apparent from Formosa forum do believe this is fake Buddhist implemented by China for political purpose of continue their brutal occupation of Tibet…This is FACT

    You keep using the word fact, but all you have is your opinion. You do not seem to exercise logic, but reach conclusions without evidence. The purpose of this deal is for the Lamaists, I do not call them Buddhists are being used by the regime in China to dampen down the democratic process by allowing Buddhists to keep them under mental control. so the Dalai Lama claims he is the last DL. Why as he wants to continue to have influence in Tibet. It is explained in that article I linked you to. Please read it and comment on it.

    Tantrismuskritik » 22 Mar 2012, 10:21

    Wrote this and this is the consistent message of this blog:

    Your statements show that you mix the religious topic with the political one. The religious topic focuses on whether the Tibetan Buddhism matches the teachings of Buddha Shakyamuni.
    It’s meaningless to discuss the state of Tibet. As I read, your concern focuses much on the Tibetan politic, than I would like to ask: Why don’t you research the old Tibet under the rule of XIV Dalai Lama? How hardly the serfs have to work for the lamas? How terribly they are killed by the landlord hierarchy (= lamas) to offer their brains, their hearts, their hands etc. for the ritual ceremony of Tibetan Buddhism? How sadly the female serfs are raped by lamas? Why are there always bodies of death girls outside the lama monastery? If you never know about THIS, please go to research the history of Tibet (especially under the rule of Dalai Lamas) first, you will find out a new impression of Tibet.
    (For reference: The Story of Tibet’s Serfs 1-6: http://youtu.be/xBipTf8U-g8)

    yet keep blogging and spreading hate against Tibetan people and claim to know details about Tibetan Buddhism?!

    What nationality are you? Are you a Tibetan? We make no claims about Tibetan Buddhism because we do not regard it as Buddhism. In fact we claim it it is Tantric Hinduism and has no connection to Buddhism.

    yet you DI doesn’t even want people to question this suspicious Taiwanese organization?!

    Which organisation? I will ask you one last time.

    I leave these answers for the common sense

    Common sense would be to give evidence for your position.

    Like

  68. When you fly to your country from where you are now do you get a sense of relief?
    Could you name the Taiwanese organisation that is working with the Chinese Communists? Also I note you did not answer the clear evidence we made for our position in the link given to you?

    Like

  69. DI

    so you believe some sort of consiparacy theory that China now is a good friend with Tibetan, and cooperating with them?!!!

    and saying otherwise, is nonsense?

    hahah..any way, what I am stating here is FACTS, and I am not some naive who have no idea about This Taiwanese organization

    Most of Taiwanese as apparent from Forumosa forum do believe this is fake Buddhist implemented by China for political purpose of continue their brutal occupation of Tibet…This is FACT

    from Forumosa forum:

    Tantrismuskritik wrote:
    adikarmika wrote:
    You think that your organisation has no political agenda?
    You think that just because there are no records of donations from political organisations that Zhengjue doesn’t have any political agenda?
    Do you really think that your private donors are politically neutral?
    Do you know for sure where your private donors get their money from?

    So many questions…
    May I ask a question? If you plan to fly to your hometown, do you need to research how the airport is built up? How the airplane is produced? From which factory is the engine? How does engine work? etc.
    Or you need to find out an airplane company, to book a ticket, to check the airplane, arrive in the airport on time and take the airplane to your hometown?

    http://www.forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.php?f=121&t=102003&start=480

    so one of the follower of enlightened foundation a blogger known as Tantismuskritik doesn’t know from where the money is coming from in this organization? doesn’t even bother to know? yet keep blogging and spreading hate against tibetan people and clime to know details about Tibetan Buddhism?! yet you DI doesn’t even want people to question this suspecious Taiwanese organization?!

    I leave these answers for the common sense

    Like

  70. Lotus Force you are still working with a cold war narrative. I think you will find by reading the article below you are barking up the wrong tree.

    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2015/03/11/western-tibetan-buddhists-the-new-manchurian-candidates/

    Like

  71. will….I do read a lots and a lots of comments here..I know its old thread though

    let me clarify thing, most of the commenters here seems have no idea who is these Taiwanese organization who put themselves like genuin buddhist and “Taiwanese”..not chinese..so they could further confuses the masses

    its all part of the plan by CCP or Chinese regime…they are supported by the CCP and almost most of the Taiwanese people do know this thing, and consider this group to be a fake buddhist that is created with obvious political goal..if you don’t believe, just go browse in Formusa forum and see the thread they created there

    I know a lots of blogs that is runned by them, and used to comment on one of them, the author is keep praising taoism and insulting the tibetan buddhist and post a comparison between the two, I did comment and post link showing taoism DO in fact, practice sexual copulating tantra just like Tibetan DO, and more openly in fact, they believe in Yin Yang balance through sex which is the best in their opinion!

    the author has deleted my comment there at the end, and banned me from commenting in his blog..just shows their clear connection with Chinese communists, who is racist keep praising anything that is chinese and condimned any thing tibetan

    any way, here just want to expose this communist related Zheng Jue, the head of these Taiwanese organization

    Like

  72. Its his pants I would be worried about!

    Like

  73. Ha ha! ZesHowItIs is also very wet behind the ears.

    Like

  74. SezHowItIs

    pmsl

    possiably the worst and most unrealistic of internet jargon….
    ‘pissing myself laughing’ sure u are

    Like

  75. Only an idiot would believe this video!

    Perhaps it is not a question of belief, but evidence?

    You can hear and feel the bullshit oozing out from this! Cop yerselves on!

    Are we we to assume you are a Buddhist Sir?

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  76. Only an idiot would believe this video! You can hear and feel the bullshit oozing out from this! Cop yerselves on!

    Like

  77. pmsl

    Like

  78. HaHa! Didn’t take much to ignite you all again….such fun!

    Like

  79. ecumenical buddhist! we are not printing anything. It is clear you have some problem when posting?
    We will change your name manually.

    Like

  80. http://www.amazon.com/Destructive-Trends-Mental-Health-Intentioned/dp/0415950864

    “This book takes as its inspiration the assumption that the atmosphere of intellectual openness, scientific inquiry, aspiration towards diversity, and freedom from political pressure that once flourished in the American Psychological Association has been eclipsed by an “ultra-liberal agenda,” in which voices of dissent, controversial points of view, and minority groups are intimidated, ridiculed and censored”

    Similar to what has occurred here on this site.

    These are the new psychologists and psychotherapists, being spewed out of Marriage and Family therapy programs now, ,whose political agendas and dua cult l affiliations take precedent over reporting gross sexual abuse inside these sanghas (about 20% of Tsoknyi R’s followers are in the psychology profession, and I would bet a high percentage of Sogyal’s group is too).

    That is a huge factor that is unacknowledged as to why this sexual abuse is still occurring in a group like Sogyal’s. After all, the main senior ‘teachers’ are psychologists , thought controlled b Lamaism themselves while still pretending to be psychologists to the outside world.

    So again, next time someone seeks out ‘professional mental health help’ one better ask, ‘what Hindu/Buddhist group do you belong to first?”

    Like

  81. And the two Anonymous’ posts above my name are me, not to be confused with anonymous/ecumenical buddhist who seems to be getting ‘paranoid’ now as well as “hysterical.”

    I can throw around the psychological labelling as good as any psychobuddhists. I know that game well, It’s why psychologists are so attracted to Lamaism, most of them all love to feel ‘superior’ in relations to ordinary humans, a cover for unresolved psychological trauma that they bury instead of resolving, becoming ‘psychologists’ instead. A mediocre profession now attracting people who are into self-help books, life coaching, and being ‘buddhist-lite now,

    Like

  82. “7. If one set out deliberately to imagine a form of Buddhism that would be best suited to provide sexual opportunities for a teacher, one would be hard-pressed to improve on the model that evolved in Tibet. When combined with a feudal conception of absolute power and a belief in tantric sexual practices as a means of attaining enlightenment, one arrives at a ready-made justification for men teachers to take advantage of women students. This situation is much the same in Japanese Zen, where a feudal model likewise prevails, albeit without the use of tantric elements.”

    From S. Batchelor’s latest posts

    Finally , he says something directly about tantric sexual practices….in Tibetan Buddhism. Well , Batchelor, it took him long enough, particularly since he knows quite well what is going on in these Lama cults, but of course he has his own ‘following now’ of ex-Tibetan Lamaists, so he knows that they have to be ‘snapped out’ of it very slowly, the cognitive dissonance would be too much…..We can see how the resistance is phenomenally deep and solid on this site.

    Still, he waited until there was a growing swell of grass roots disgust…He could have addressed this much much sooner, but finally you have a respected Buddhist teacher saying what some of us have been saying for over two years publically and on every blog and site we can to really wake people up. He could still say more, and more publically. But its a good start.

    Like

  83. You come in ” anonymous” if you don’t post for a while, and the details kick back to a default which is “anonymous”, that’s all, nothing sinister about it.

    Like

  84. Heads up Lama Lovers! You will soon need another ‘scapegoat’ for all your repressed anger underneath your patinas of “pseudo compassion”, now that the Dalai Lama is again embracing NKT and Dorje Shugden. .

    Eventually the west (and it is happening now at an accelerated rate) will realize that Tibetan “Buddhism’ is neither peaceful nor harmonious, these sects have been fighting and even killing each other for centuries. Then they make up again, and then the cycle repeats itself.

    http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/dalai-lama-will-stop-condemning-dorje-shugden/

    They are all part of the same Lamaist cult, worshipping their ‘lamas’ as living gods on thrones. Each with their own mini-gods that can do no wrong, and the more money they bring in, the more these lamas are worshipped by each other, that is why they all give Sogyal not only a ‘pass’ by are seen bowing down very very low to him. Mr. Cash Cow and Tantra exploiter of western women extraordinaire!.

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  85. Mr. Dzogchen, Tsoknyi Rinpoche and biggest enabler of Mr. Predator Sogyal, has all the psychologists in his sangha (and there are many ) all channeled through Spirit Rock in California, soon prostrating to him and doing ngondro and contemplating these hell realms when he sends them on ‘retreat’.

    This is how the Lamas controlled their people under their heels for over a thousand years. Buddhists bring their children to this theme park and think that it is ‘healthy’ and good for their moral upbringing.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/23/welcome-to-buddhist-hell.html

    Like

  86. Thought you’d all appreciate the Buddhist Hell realms, that make the Christian Hells look tame.

    This is what the ‘westernized lamas’ teach ,after they have you sucked into their simple meditation techniques and messages of world peace. The whole middle part of the Lamaist ‘bible’ for ngondro , Patrul R’s ‘Words of my Perfect Teacher” that every lama has their students reading and contemplating to fighten them further into thought control these hell realms.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/23/welcome-to-buddhist-hell.html

    Like

  87. Haha! Now you’re printing me as ‘anonymous, when I’m actually ecumenical buddhist! How ethical are you when you won’t print the ‘real name’?

    Like

  88. Stephen Batchelor’s website has a great assessment of it:
    http:/sweepingzen.com/buddhism-and-sex-the-bigger-picture/

    Unfortunately it won’t copy and paste.
    Now vindicated! Bye!

    Like

  89. Dear Joanne,

    Sorry to hear of your loss … take care of yourself.

    Much metta & karuna to you,
    sankappa

    Like

  90. OK, Mike, I’ll “come clean”. My mother has recently died. We just had a wonderful memorial service for her, at which many family members attended and shared stories. I am now at a transition in my life, wondering about next steps, sad that she is no longer with me….

    Dear Joanne,

    I know you have been looking after your mother for some time and you have been very dedicated to that pursuit, going to bed early and rising early. On behalf of all of us here including all those that disagree with you take time to mourn and we are thinking of you. We obviously understand that taking part in a robust forum like this is not for you at this time. I do not think it is at all appropriate to respond to your other points at this time. There is a time to speak and a time to stay silent. When you have gained the strength to come back we look forward to you addressing the issues as I outlined a few days ago. In the meantime we wish you well with your family and with the memories of your mother.
    We will move your other comments to the Lamaism discussion where they can be addressed in due course.
    Best Wishes
    Mike Garde
    Director Dialogue Ireland

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  91. Dear Joanne,

    A few years ago, I too couldn’t understand what is the big deal here. Like you said, aren’t these people just paranoid, making a big fuss out of some cases of religious sex abuse that happen all the time.

    I understand your reaction to the sometimes emotional exchanges in this forum. You know, those who sound indignant, like Chris, have seen so much from the inside that we can hardly imagine. It’s why June Campbell did such extensive research and wrote Traveller in Space to resolve the traumatic experience in which her faith and trust were exploited and abused. To them, what’s being said are not simply opinions; it’s what they have personally gone through. Perhaps, years ago Campbell and Chris Chandler believed in what you believe now. They saw things, wondered, doubted, struggled, and decided to stayed on, until it became too obvious what is wrong with the whole practice down to the core.

    As the video and Buddhism explain, too many have fallen prey to Tibetan Buddhism and something must be done. Compare to the well-financed TB centers around the world, the influence of Dialogue Ireland and the True Enlightenment Foundation is probably nothing. Apparently neither are doing this for recognition or money. As Professor Kreuger says in his blog post “I don’t care about the Dalai Lama,” people are well aware that taking on the DL or his religion gets you no kudos but only resentment. So, “many of those who would like to take a critical look know this, fear the reaction, and go to work elsewhere.”

    If you have watched the video, you’d see that it’s trying to caution people who would unquestioningly buy into the myths TB. And the author of the PDF link is very knowledgeable about TB.

    You are right that we are just human beings. Problem is, many of us are actually so good-natured that we truly believe these self-proclaimed holy lamas and living Buddhas are perfect and extraordinary beings.

    Sorry for your loss. Will dedicate merits to your mother tonight.

    Like

  92. OK, Mike, I’ll “come clean”. My mother has recently died. We just had a wonderful memorial service for her, at which many family members attended and shared stories. I am now at a transition in my life, wondering about next steps, sad that she is no longer with me…………….
    Rest of comment has been moved to:

    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion

    Like

  93. In one report by Finnigan, she explains women being sexually abused by lamas refuse to come out for two reasons: 1. the injunction against gossip and 2. the samaya they have taken can be used against them in threatening ways if they “misbehave.”

    I’m bringing this up because these two elements are classic characteristics of a cult. Batchelor’s studied right under the nose of the Dalai Lama and June Campbell served as translator and dakini of the Kalu Rinpoche I for years. Campbell especially has experienced the Tibetan Tantric practice up close and personal. To dismiss their questions as mere gossip is a display of cultish mentality.

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  94. Why was this DVD made by the Foundation?
    Given that the Taiwanese people are generally honest and simple,
    they have no ability to tell that the doctrines, teachings,
    and cultivation methods of Lamaism ALL CONTRADICT THOSE OF Buddhism.

    As a result, some individuals erroneously consider Tantric Buddhism to be orthodox Buddhism and lamas to be true monastic practitioners, and make huge donations to them.
    Therefore, the lamas in exile around the world all consider Taiwan to be their top destination.

    Formosa Taiwan seems to have become the major financial donor to the Tibetan government-in-exile. Not only have lamas drained the Taiwanese people’s hard-earned money, but THEY HAVE ALSO SEXUALLY ABUSED MANY TAIWANESE FEMALES.

    At the Tibetan centers all around the island, countless cases of sexual assaults committed by lamas have been reported. (Newspapers clippings shown in the film)
    The ones disclosed by the media are only the tip of the iceberg.

    The Foundation could not bear seeing sentient beings, whose original intent was to follow the path of peaceful cultivation, but due to their ignorance, have unexpectedly become victims of dreadful sexual abuses.

    Because they have been misled, they are now mired in the misconception that cultivation must be done via the pursuit of
    sexual pleasure. They have gone the complete opposite direction of the Buddhahood way, and have thus terminated their wisdom-life of the dharmakaya. They may even fall to the evil paths before they know it.

    More importantly, the Foundation could not turn a blind eye
    to the fact that lamas, who depend on Buddhism and at the same time steal Buddhism’s resources, claim themselves to be “dharma-kings” and destroy the Buddha’s dharma.

    Therefore, the True Enlightenment Education Foundation
    must courageously step forward to disclose the true colors of Tantric Buddhism and turn the tide and uphold the Buddha’s true dharma.

    The word Tantra derives from the root word “tan,” which refers to proliferation or reproduction.

    In short, the couple-practice of copulation by a male and female couple of Tantrism is a deformed product of Hindu Shaktism; in essence, it is totally NOT Buddhism.

    Like

  95. The blind and benevolent followers of TB like Joanne have different problems with their believing system, when it comes into a serious discussion with some facts wich are hurting.

    At first they are not aware following an esoteric path, which can be compete with some esotric systems within christianity like the Rosicrucianism which main idea is founded on the myth, Jesus gave the highest teachings only to some chosen few after he died. If some one is hanging on to that kind of myth she is not open to rational arguments like Sankappa developed.

    Like Adorno said: To destroy a myth you need that kind of thinking which is hard against itsself. Joanne is not ready for that.

    Furthermore they denie the fact of secrecy within the cult. If they are not initiated it is just denying, if they are, its lying. Within TB you are forced to protect the secrecies of Dharma, I posted a lot of quotes about that fact on other threads.

    I suppose, Berzin is a liear like Joannes teacher, but she is not. What one knows is depending on the steps of initiations he or she reached.

    Buddha never gave a system like that.

    What I above quoted as a confession of sexual practises as the quickest way to “enlightment” by the DL has to be blind out like other facts which are presented here.

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  96. Sankhappa and beluga424 as I clearly stated Joanne’s comments have been moved to the following thread, https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion/
    I gather from Sankappa there is really no reason to engage with Joanne until she has something significant to say about this post. Like earlier posts she does not engage and tries to divert away from it. If there is anything you wish to continue with you will find it in the other thread. This will happen until Joanne comes clean.

    Like

  97. Stop your distraction and obfuscation and get on with it Joanne.

    As beluga424 said yesterday:

    Agree with Sankappa’s point about Nagarjuna. And the question is still where in the Pali Nikaya, or Nagarjuna’s treatise, endorse the couple-practice?

    Like

  98. beluga424 and Sankappa just to let you know as yourselves and Joanne are in different time zones
    it is our intention to move not DELETE any discussion which does not follow this criteria:

    Joanne before you copy and paste anything more.
    1. Can you confirm that you have have watched the video?
    2. We will decide what goes on which thread.
    3. Stop talking about deletion for your fan club, moving is not deletion.
    4. If you have not actually commented on the post we will remove everything you write to the Lamaism Discussion and those that wish to follow you can go there.
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion
    5. People have been asking you for your response to the video not about your study of Wikipedia.

    We have no desire to restrict debate but it is our intention as Sankappa has asked Joanne to actually address this excellent video from Taiwan. You must remember that we had the same problem last year when Joanne refused to actually comment on This video.

    This is NOT going to happen again.

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  99. Joanne before you copy and paste anything more.
    1. Can you confirm that you have have watched the video?
    2. We will decide what goes on which thread.
    3. Stop talking about deletion for your fan club, moving is not deletion.
    4. If you have not actually commented on the post we will remove everything you write to the Lamaism Discussion and those that wish to follow you can go there.
    5. People have been asking you for your response to the video not about your study of Wikipedia.

    Like

  100. And DI, before you remove any of my comments, I will comment that when we are speaking of the authenticity of any Buddhist tradition, including tantra, we are talking about whether or not the tradition can trace its roots back to those early Indian sutras, those in the Pali and Sanskrit languages. This is why I gave that historical framework above.

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  101. And beluga, the problems which Stephen Batchelor speaks of are the reason that I am on these threads. As I repeat ad nauseum, I do not deny that there are problems within western Tibetan Buddhist communities and in the ways that Tibetan Buddhist masters are bringing the tradition to the West. That is a problem that concerns me.

    However, when I investigate Tibetan Buddhism itself, I discover a different reality. I discover a rich treasure that I believe is worth preserving. This is the distinction I believe needs to be made. People here base their criticisms on gossip and individual instances of trouble and abuse. No one here has any knowledge of Tibetan Buddhist scriptures, which are faithful to the Nalanda tradition on which they are based. I believe that criticizing with no knowledge of what one is criticizing is irresponsible and childish.

    This is also an important distinction any religious follower needs to make in order to be free of cultish habits and fundamentalism. To avoid cultism, followers need to step out of born again faith-based belief and investigate from many different angles.

    This is the approach I believe that Buddha himself would suggest during those precarious times.

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  102. And Sankhappa, “absolutely no abuse” within your tradition? That sounds a little cultish to my ears I’m afraid. Even the Buddha himself would not guarantee such a thing, even amongst his close followers!

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  103. Sankhappa, have I ever said that the Pali canon is irrelevant? Never. You will not find that meaning in my comments. Here is the basic framework to my comments:

    1. 2,600 years ago Buddha attained enlightenment. During his lifetime, he taught what we call the “first turning of the wheel of dharma.” These teachings were preserved in the Pali language.

    2. The Pali tradition migrated on its own to countries such as Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand…. This traditions today is known as the Theravada tradition of Buddhism. Within the Mahayana tradition, these teachings at known as the Hinayana.

    3. According to the Mahayana tradition, Buddha delivered two further sets of teachings– the second and third turnings of the wheel of Dharma. In the second turning are the Perfection of Wisdom sutras and in the third turning, there are sutras “unravelling the intention of the Buddha” and sutras explaining the “Mind Only” school of Buddhism.

    4. Because the second and third turnings were given within mystic settings, Theravada practitioners have never acknowledged them as authentic teachings of the Buddha– as being the true words of the Buddha. However, followers of the Mahayana tradition BASE their tradition on the Pali canon– they don’t ever refute it’s existence.

    5. A vital convergence of these two traditions is in the Vinaya, the scriptural collections on monastic discipline.

    5. The Mahayana tradition migrated to China, Japan, Tibet, Mongolia, Vietnam etc.

    6. Tantra is a practice within the Mahayana tradition. There are clear indications that Nagarjuna and other Nalanda masters practiced and taught tantra.

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  104. Joanne, on January 13, 2014 at 12:48 pm said:

    Sankhappa, I imagine that there are cases of abuse occurring within your own Buddhist tradition. Does that mean that your tradition is not authentic?

    No. Absolutely no abuse occurring in my tradition. That I can guarantee.

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  105. Thanks for this example, beluga. We are lucky to have people like Batchelor to give us some clear and objective views of what the Vajrayana are like. I get impression through listening to many of his talks, that he remains very diplomatic, but he would not pull-his-punches as much in private.

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  106. Below is a passage from Batchelor’s The Faith to Doubt with respect to the lamaist view on other Buddhist traditions:

    “What I was looking for was a practice of formless meditation… But at that time I could not find a Teacher of the Tibetan traditions who taught such a practice without the embellishments of guru-devotion, tantric rituals, mantra, visualization…The Tibetan argument is that such practices were necessary as a basis for proceeding into the formless meditations of mahamudra or dzogchen were unconvincing…I only had to look at the Theravada or Zen systems to see that a formless meditation was quite happily practiced without that basis…The lamas persisted in refuting only antiquated notion of the other Buddhist traditions– notions which had been preserved in Tibet for centuries — but had little understanding of the current conditions of the schools they were criticizing.”

    The visualization that he found repulsive involves visualizing himself as a vajrayogini (a bright red, menstrating, 16 yr-old dakini), or a bull-headed Yamantaka that has a dark azure body, with tongue curled upward, fangs bared, face wrinkled with anger, who devour human blood, fat, marrow, and lymph, has a head crowned with five frightful dried skulls and adorned with a garland of 50 moist human heads, naked with huge belly and erect penis….

    You can see why he questioned how all this can be part of the pure and supreme Buddha Dharma, or to be more accurate, the highest, more superior form of Buddha Dharma.

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  107. To Joanne, you are right that they are not Tibetans. I meant to say that they are the founders of the two major schools of Madhyamaka philosophy espoused by Tibetan Buddhists.

    The point remain the same, those names are not recognized by traditional Chinese Buddhists, who followed either the Chan or Pure Land tradition. Not that Tibetan Buddhism never spread into China. While its couple-practice was embraced by the imperial courts of the Yuan, Ming and Qing dynasties, it was never widely accepted by ordinary folks and most Buddhists due to its clash with Chinese ethics.

    Agree with Sankappa’s point about Nagarjuna. And the question is still where in the Pali Nikaya, or Nagarjuna’s treatise, endorse the couple-practice?

    Like

  108. dialogueireland, on January 14, 2014 at 2:52 am said:

    Please Sankappa what ever you do, do not ask her if she has seen the video. Have you noticed she never answered that question? We are looking for a film review not more Wikipedia copy and paste!

    Quite right DI. Joanne does not answer the questions. I have made it clear in all my posts to Joanne that she needs to address, with evidence, from relevant sources, that support her view that ‘Couple-Practice Tantra’ is a genuine Buddhist practice, particularly in my last two posts. I have now also pointed out the quite astonishing ignorance in her view that the Pali Canon and the Chinese Agamas are irrelevant, because the commentaries that support her view are derived from them. The irony of her statements in regards to the Pali texts as irrelevant, is evidence of Joanne’s very limited, cloistered and Vajrayana-centric view of Buddhadhamma; as such, I think she now needs to be held very firmly by DI, to directly supporting her view, so that she does not further pollute this thread her ill-informed waffle.

    Like

  109. So Joanne, as you want to frame the debate around trying to assert that the Pali Nikayas are not a relevant source to be quoting, let’s look at this argument in light of your comment from yesterday:

    Joanne, on January 12, 2014 at 3:12 pm said:

    The origin of my point of view does not lie with the Pali canon nor with Chinese scriptural sources nor even with Tibetan Buddhist commentaries. My point of view– and that described by the Dalai Lama in the quote which beluga provided– originates from the Indian Buddhist scriptures in the Sanskrit tradition. These are authors such as Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Bhavavavika, Bhudapalita, and Shantarakshita, as well as his student Kamalashila.

    Your above comment shows that your knowledge of Buddhism has gaps in it so large, you could drive a division of Panzer tanks through it. You are on such shaky ground here, trying to make the case that the Pali Canon is irrelevant, yet you are blissfully unaware just how untenable it is.

    As Nagarjuna is generally considered the most noted ‘Mahayanist’ in your approved list of sources, I think he would be a good example to use in illustrating the basic flaw of your argument.

    Without doubt Nagarjuna’s most important work is his Mūlamadhyamaka-kārikā. So what did he base this work on Joanne? What is he making a commentary on? What do you think his foundational text(s) might have been? Yes, it’s that ‘irrelevant’ foundational text containing, you guessed it the discourses of the Buddha, the Pali Canon. The Kaccayanagotta Sutta of the Samyutta Nikaya to be more precise. Here’s a link to it Joanne: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html It’s quite a short sutta, but a very important one. So why don’t you go a have a look at what a foundational text looks like? If you are game enough to do it, I’m guessing this will be the first time you’ve read a foundational text, and up until now you’ve just be reading commentaries of the Buddha via other teachers. Do you understand the importance now? The Buddha’s discourses are the foundation of Buddhadhamma. They are found in the Pali Nikayas and the Chinese Agamas. Noted icons such as Nagarjuna have written commentaries on them. Nagarjuna’s elaboration in Fundamental Verses of the Middle Way and the Buddha’s view on Right View are in accord. Here’s some further expansion on this:

    From studying his writings, it is clear that Nāgārjuna was conversant with many of the Śrāvaka philosophies and with the Mahāyāna tradition. However, determining Nāgārjuna’s affiliation with a specific Nikaya is difficult, considering much of this material is presently lost. If the most commonly accepted attribution of texts (that of Christian Lindtner) holds, then he was clearly a Māhayānist, but his philosophy holds assiduously to the Śrāvaka [Pali] canon, and while he does make explicit references to Mahāyāna texts, he is always careful to stay within the parameters set out by the Śrāvaka [Pali] canon.

    Nagarjuna may have arrived at his positions from a desire to achieve a consistent exegesis of the Buddha’s doctrine as recorded in the āgamas. In the eyes of Nagarjuna the Buddha was not merely a forerunner, but the very founder of the Madhyamaka system.[11] David Kalupahana sees Nagarjuna as a successor to Moggaliputta-Tissa in being a champion of the middle-way and a reviver of the original philosophical ideals of the Buddha.[12]

    Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagarjuna

    So one of the most important texts for the Mahayana (that you support) is based on a commentary derived from the Pali Nikayas.

    So Joanne you can no longer assert, “The origin of my point of view does not lie with the Pali canon nor with Chinese scriptural sources … ” because it clearly does. It is based directly on the Buddha’s discourses from the Pali Canon and the Agamas, via your commentarial texts, as I have shown.

    So stop the waffle and irrelevancy of your posts. Start being directly relevant to this thread and provide direct quotes from the FOUNDATIONAL texts to support your view that ‘Couple-Practice Tantra’ is a genuine Buddhist practice. Quotes from the DL and other sources do not count as foundational.

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  110. This comment was not published till nearly 12 hours later because it had more than one link.
    So Joanne, as you want to frame the debate around trying to assert that the Pali Nikayas are not a relevant source to be quoting, let’s look at this argument in light of your comment from yesterday:

    Joanne, on January 12, 2014 at 3:12 pm said:

    The origin of my point of view does not lie with the Pali canon nor with Chinese scriptural sources nor even with Tibetan Buddhist commentaries. My point of view– and that described by the Dalai Lama in the quote which beluga provided– originates from the Indian Buddhist scriptures in the Sanskrit tradition. These are authors such as Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Bhavavavika, Bhudapalita, and Shantarakshita, as well as his student Kamalashila.

    Your above comment shows that your knowledge of Buddhism has gaps in it so large, you could drive a division of Panzer tanks through it. You are on such shaky ground here, trying to make the case that the Pali Canon is irrelevant, yet you are blissfully unaware just how untenable it is.

    As Nagarjuna is generally considered the most noted ‘Mahayanist’ in your approved list of sources, I think he would be a good example to use in illustrating the basic flaw of your argument.

    Without doubt Nagarjuna’s most important work is his Mūlamadhyamaka-kārikā. So what did he base this work on Joanne? What is he making a commentary on? What do you think his foundational text(s) might have been? Yes, it’s that ‘irrelevant’ foundational text containing, you guessed it the discourses of the Buddha, the Pali Canon. The Kaccayanagotta Sutta of the Samyutta Nikaya to be more precise. Here’s a link to it Joanne: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html It’s quite a short sutta, but a very important one. So why don’t you go a have a look at what a foundational text looks like? If you are game enough to do it, I’m guessing this will be the first time you’ve read a foundational text, and up until now you’ve just be reading commentaries of the Buddha via other teachers. Do you understand the importance now? The Buddha’s discourses are the foundation of Buddhadhamma. They are found in the Pali Nikayas and the Chinese Agamas. Noted icons such as Nagarjuna have written commentaries on them. Nagarjuna’s elaboration in Fundamental Verses of the Middle Way and the Buddha’s view on Right View are in accord. Here’s some further expansion on this:

    From studying his writings, it is clear that Nāgārjuna was conversant with many of the Śrāvaka philosophies and with the Mahāyāna tradition. However, determining Nāgārjuna’s affiliation with a specific Nikaya is difficult, considering much of this material is presently lost. If the most commonly accepted attribution of texts (that of Christian Lindtner) holds, then he was clearly a Māhayānist, but his philosophy holds assiduously to the Śrāvaka [Pali] canon, and while he does make explicit references to Mahāyāna texts, he is always careful to stay within the parameters set out by the Śrāvaka [Pali] canon.

    Nagarjuna may have arrived at his positions from a desire to achieve a consistent exegesis of the Buddha’s doctrine as recorded in the āgamas. In the eyes of Nagarjuna the Buddha was not merely a forerunner, but the very founder of the Madhyamaka system.[11] David Kalupahana sees Nagarjuna as a successor to Moggaliputta-Tissa in being a champion of the middle-way and a reviver of the original philosophical ideals of the Buddha.[12]

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagarjuna

    So one of the most important texts for the Mahayana (that you support) is based on a commentary derived from the Pali Nikayas.

    So Joanne you can no longer assert, “The origin of my point of view does not lie with the Pali canon nor with Chinese scriptural sources … ” because it clearly does. It is based directly on the Buddha’s discourses from the Pali Canon and the Agamas, via your commentarial texts, as I have shown.

    So stop the waffle and irrelevancy of your posts. Start being directly relevant to this thread and provide direct quotes from the FOUNDATIONAL texts to support your view that ‘Couple-Practice Tantra’ is a genuine Buddhist practice. Quotes from the DL and other sources do not count as foundational.

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  111. Oops, I forgot that I am now Anonymous1. Sorry.

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  112. Okay, DI. Then it is settled. I’m glad we got that cleared up.

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  113. Please Sankappa what ever you do, do not ask her if she has seen the video. Have you noticed she never answered that question? We are looking for a film review not more Wikipedia copy and paste!

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  114. Fine thanks. you are not a spy

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  115. The True Enlightenment Education Foundation has published four big volumes of Behind the Façade of Tibetan Buddhism, which have revealed the truth about Tibetan Buddhism, so far hidden behind its mysterious veil, and have exposed it to the public eye.

    The truth is that the core doctrine of Tibetan Buddhism consists of the Couple-Practice Tantra. The lustful copulation practice between a male and a female is viewed as the ultimate cultivation method.

    The book Behind the Façade of Tibetan Buddhism has completely unmasked the erroneous knowledge, concepts, cultivation methods, as well as sexual misconduct, of the Lamaist practitioners.

    I can see Joanne by your comments that you haven’t even taken the time to read the intro to this thread. So in an attempt to try and get you to do this I have now pasted it above in the hope that you will, so as you can ascertain what this discussion is about. However, I do understand by the fact you are struggling to get a coherent answer together, it is more likely evidence of you suffering major aversion to the content, which is affecting your ability to absorb and understand. In short, you don’t like what you are reading so you do not absorb it and make a response in a coherent fashion that addresses what this discussion is about.

    So here it is again: The True Enlightenment Education Foundation believes (as does DI, myself and others) that the core doctrine of Tibetan Buddhism is based on ‘Couple-Practice Tantra’ which is their ‘ultimate cultivation method’ and as such is not Buddhist practice. You have been asked to provide evidence to the contrary if you do not agree with this assertion, from a FOUNDATIONAL and REPUTABLE source to support that this is a genuine Buddhist practice. So far, you have not been able to do this. I know why you can’t do this, because there are no FOUNDATIONAL and REPUTABLE sources that support ‘Couple-Practice Tantra’ as being a genuine Buddhist practice. It really is that simple Joanne. You can’t provide evidence so you try to throw in some red-herrings to distract and disguise that fact that you can’t. The interesting thing is though, that in attempt to distract the discussion, you reveal the ignorance of your understanding of Buddhism (more on this later) that obviously has it genesis in closing your mind off, by grasping so tightly to, and trying to protect your very limited understanding of Buddhadhamma. This is not what the Buddha had in mind (nor Nagarjuna either) as a way of advancement, by holding on tightly to and not opening up to questioning, particularly erroneous views.

    So you state Joanne that I claim to be saying :

    By your logic, the Buddhism of China, Japan, Mongolia etc. would also be Lamaism.

    Nothing could be further from the truth. My understanding and view is that there a many sincere and committed practitioners of the Mahayana, and I have a great deal of respect for GENUINE Mahayana practices. What I don’t have time for is non-genuine Mahayana practices, or any non-genuine Buddhist practices, of which ‘Couple-Practice Tantra’ of the Vajrayana is. And let’s not forget a very salient point of this thread. It is a Mahayana organisation that is raising these claims. Yes that’s right Joanne, it is the Mahayana that find the practices of the Vajrayana repugnant, abusive and a distortion of Buddhadhamma. Genuine Mahayana practitioners also question the authenticity of dodgy Vajrayana claims and practices.

    So start addressing the points of his thread Joanne that Mahayanists, DI, myself and others are raising, or get off the air. There are no excuses now. If you disagree that ‘Couple-Practice Tantra’ is not a genuine Buddhist practice, start showing some evidence from foundational texts to support it.

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  116. If I forget, you can remind me. :)

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  117. Okay, DI, I accept your apology, on the condition that you do not accuse me of being a spy anymore, unless I give you some good reason that is provable. I wasn’t aware that you had asked me to use “Anonymous1” to avoid confusion. My turn to apologize if I missed that. From now on (if I post at all) I will use the name Anonymous1.get, you can remind me. :)

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  118. Yes, Anonymous, I was very aware of the stark differences between both of you two anonymous’s.

    Yes you have a sixth sense it is wonderful.
    Stay focused with people who can address your points, all I am concerned with is that you actually get to the point. Stop copying and pasting from Wikipedia. Either you know the stuff or get someone who does.
    Also realise you are dealing with totally different time zones, so do not expect a reply on the day you post.

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  119. And beluga, you won’t find sexual misconduct condoned in tantric practice. There are clear guidelines. When sexual misconduct occurs, that is abuse. It is not part of the practice.

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  120. Yes, Anonymous, I was very aware of the stark differences between both of you two anonymous’s.

    And DI, there is a comment by you on this very thread where you instruct us to stick to the main topic: TB=Lamaism (or we will be cast into the dark spillover)– Now you have a new threat– stick to discussion of copulating tantric practitioners (or we will be cast into the dark spillover).

    The result? All discussion is fragmented.

    And what happens when you separate out tantra from its context of Buddhist ethics and practice and origins?

    ABUSE!!!!!

    Is this a mulberry bush or what????

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  121. beluga, you said, “I know all the names of the Tibetan Buddhists you mentioned in your earlier post.”

    Those names I mentioned were not Tibetan Buddhists! They were Indian Buddhists who practiced and studied long before Buddhism came to Tibet– at Nalanda University in Southern India.

    And here’s an interesting quote from Wikapedia about the surangama sutra:

    “A number of scholars have associated the Śūraṅgama Sūtra with the Buddhist tradition at Nālandā.[6][7] Epstein also notes that the general doctrinal position of the sūtra does indeed correspond to what is known about the Buddhist teachings at Nālandā during this period.[3]”

    It would be good if people here could at least begin with a basic understanding.

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  122. Dear Anonymous,
    I have rechecked and I did find one comment by another Anonymous as follows:

    Submitted on 2014/01/11 at 4:49 am

    In my opinion the Mahayana Buddhism and the familie of the Bodhisattvas are not in the radar of Tibetan Tantric Lamaism!
    It’s simply a lie.

    I was NOT the same Anonymous who made a particular comment and that is the “Anonymous”

    I unreservedly apologise and ask you as I did earlier to avoid confusion to use the moniker “Anonymous1” so we do not all get confused. I am see the IP but others can’t so do not know which one you are and to which Anonymous you are referring

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  123. I was NOT the same Anonymous who made a particular comment and that is the “Anonymous” I was referring to when I said I wasn’t the same person. Pay attention to my posts, please. I admitted truthfully that I was the same Anonymous who posted before, a week ago, or whenever it was, but I was NOT the same person who posted a different comment I noticed more recently. Nothing in my story has changed, so where do you come off calling me a liar? If you show yourselves to be so irrational and paranoid then it merely shows that one can’t take your arguments about Tibetan Buddhism seriously. I would like to say goodbye for good, so stop dragging me back and accusing me of spying.

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  124. Anonymous has come clean and we can treat their comments and Joanne’s dependence on them as what they are in reality sock pupetry. This reply she is still holding on……but

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  125. Sankhappa, I imagine that there are cases of abuse occurring within your own Buddhist tradition.

    This has nothing to do with practice, stay focus and show that this stuff is part of Buddhism.
    Yes we are all humans.. is that a breakthrough for today! I think you guys call then sentient beings, no more planet of the apes monkey business

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  126. Joanne to Sankappa

    My point is that your points are not relevant to our debate here, which is whether or not TIBETAN BUDDHISM is authentic Buddhism.

    This is what this thread is about:

    Tantric Couple Copulation practices that the Vajrayanists adopt for their main practice for awakening are the OPPOSITE of what the Buddha was teaching.These practices are derived from a Brahmin/Hindu origin.They are not in accord with Buddhadhamma.

    Joanne please stop relying on Anonymous she has confessed and headed for the hills,
    and stop messing with this post. Have you actually read it yet and could you actually comment on it, instead of all this Buddhist baloney. we will be sending to the Lamaist thread soon.

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  127. Just a follow up so that there is no confusion. I admit that I am the same Anonymous that posted a week ago, or whenever it was. I don’t care if you know that and I have nothing to hide in that regard. Again, goodbye.

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  128. I agree with what Joanne said in her last post. I have no further comments in this discussion for now. If you have anything useful about Tantra to post, I will comment, but otherwise I don’t find this website helpful because the same old topics are just being debated over and over.

    There was another Anonymous who posted some brief comment about Tibetan Buddhism not being real Buddhism. I just wanted to clarify that I am not the same person as the one who made that comment. If you think it’s the same IP address, then look again. I am fed up with being accused of being a spy for TB and that is another reason I wish to stop participating in this dialogue. Goodbye.

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  129. By the way, I am not the same “Anonymous ” you are addressing. There is more than one Anonymous here. Speaking for myself, without being a scholar,

    DI can confirm that the person who claims to be a different Anonymous from a week or so ago is the same person. We have checked the IP and it is the same. It is either a proxy or likely someone who had nothing to add but seeing that Chris had vacated the site felt they could assist the Lamaists. We also will check if they are into sock puppetry, pretending to be different posters.

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  130. Here are some passages from the Surangama Sutra, an influential sutra in Chinese Chan Buddhism which many Chinese dharma masters has written commentaries on. In these passages, the Buddha, given the prescience and wisdom He possesses, foresaw the spread of lustful practice dressed up as Buddhist practice.

    The Buddha told Ananda,

    “You constantly hear me explain in the Vinaya that there are three unalterable aspects to cultivation. That is, collecting one’s thoughts constitutes the precepts; from the precepts comes Samadhi; and out of Samadhi arises wisdom. Samadhi arises from precepts, and wisdom is revealed out of Samadhi. These are called the “Three Non-outflow Studies.”

    “Ananda, why do I call collecting one’s thoughts the precepts? If living beings in the six paths of any mundane world had no thoughts of lust, they would not have to follow a continual succession of births and deaths.”

    “Your basic purpose in cultivating is to transcend the wearisome defilements. But if you don’t renounce your lustful thoughts, you will not be able to get out of the dust.”

    “Even though one may have some wisdom and the manifestation of Chan Samadhi, one is certain of enter demonic paths if one does not cut off lust. At best, one will be a demon king; on the average, one will be in the retinue of demons; at the lowest level, one will be a female demon.”

    “These demons have their groups of disciples. Each says of himself that he has accomplished the unsurpassed Way.”

    “After my extinction, in the Dharma-ending age, these hordes of demons will abound, spreading like wildfire as they openly practice greed and lust. Claiming to be good knowing advisors, they will cause living beings to fall into the pit of love and views and lose the way to Bodhi.”

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  131. “And beluga, Chinese Buddhism is also based on that tradition, even if you haven’t heard of the writers I have mentioned. This is not my opinion. It is historical FACT– read your history.”

    I know all the names of the Tibetan Buddhists you mentioned in your earlier post. What I said was that the dharma masters Chinese Buddhists recognize and know are the Chan patriarchs, with Bodhidharma being the first one in the primary lineage. In the history of so-called Zen Buddhism of ancient China, sexual scandals were unrecorded because the observance of precepts was of utmost importance in one’s cultivation.

    Tibetan Tantric Buddhism was introduced into the imperial in the Yuan Dynasty, and the history of Yuan contains detailed description how the sexual practice led to debauchery in the Yuan court and eventually the downfall of the empire.

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  132. Sankhappa, I imagine that there are cases of abuse occurring within your own Buddhist tradition. Does that mean that your tradition is not authentic?

    For sure, there are cases of abuse in every blessed religious tradition in the world. What does that mean?

    We are all human!

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  133. Sankhappa, your comments do not address this discussion. The debate about whether Mahayana Buddhism is authentic Buddhism or not existed long before Buddhism came to Tibet! Do you hear that? Your quotes from Pali texts are a challenge to the Indian Mahayana tradition on which Tibetan Buddhism is based– they are not a challenge to Tibetan Buddhism itself. By your logic, the Buddhism of China, Japan, Mongolia etc. would also be Lamaism.

    And The second Anonymous’s first comment perfectly sums up that situation. Just as Christians dismiss the authenticity of denominations other than their own, so Theravada Buddhists dismiss Mahayana Buddhism and I imagine that that debate will continue!

    My point is that your points are not relevant to our debate here, which is whether or not TIBETAN BUDDHISM is authentic Buddhism. If you investigate Tibetan Buddhism, you will see that it is based on the ancient Indian Sanskrit Buddhist tradition. And beluga, Chinese Buddhism is also based on that tradition, even if you haven’t heard of the writers I have mentioned. This is not my opinion. It is historical FACT– read your history.

    I also totally concur with the Second Anonymous’s comments about the problem with the spread of tantra in the world right now. The discussion here is about abuse, not about tantra itself. Here is a quote from the Dalai Lama addressing this problem, as an intro to his three volume commentary on tantra:

    “Especially nowadays, Secret Mantra has become a topic of interest, but merely as an object of inquiry. From the viewpoint of a practitioner, it seems to have become an object of entertainment and to have arrived at the point where one cannot know whether it will help or harm. Many of the secrets have been disseminated; many lecturers are explaining tantra, and books are being translated. Even though Secret Mantra is to be achieved in hiding, many books have appeared that are a mixture of truth and falsity.

    “I think it would be good if the means and circumstances appeared which could clear away these wrong ideas. In general, translating a book of Mantra for sale in the shops is unsuitable, but at this time and in this situation there is greater fault in not clearing away wrong ideas than there is in distributing translations…” (Tantra in Tibet; p.17)

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  134. Well at least the field is open to a more varied discussion than before…

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  135. My apologies for any misunderstanding DI.

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  136. You totally misunderstood my request. I was not making a negative comment on Chris but rather suggesting that her analysis was key to our understanding of Lamaism. Hence the analogy of a nuclear bomb. What I was suggesting was that some took her absence as a signal to come back with more Tantric Hinduism. … hence my request to you?

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  137. Thanks Anonymous. You can take it up with a Buddhist scholar if you like. I certainly don’t need a scholar to guide me on such an glaringly obvious point of departure from Buddhist practice. I seem to be repeating myself here, but I’ll repeat it for the third or fourth time:

    Tantric Couple Copulation practices that the Vajrayanists adopt for their main practice for awakening are the OPPOSITE of what the Buddha was teaching.These practices are derived from a Brahmin/Hindu origin.They are not in accord with Buddhadhamma.

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  138. It would be best to take this up with a Buddhist scholar who has studied the origins of the Buddhist doctrines and texts, etc.

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  139. Hi Anonymous. We could discuss (and have done) many ‘interesting’ points on the Vajrayana, but this thread is specifically about discussing “Tantric Couple Copulation Lamaism is not Buddhism” and if you disagree, provide some sound evidence from a REPUTABLE AND FOUNDATIONAL SOURCE.

    The fact that it could even be considered Buddhist is beyond ridiculous, when clearly it derives from another Tradition entirely, is beyond me. But there are actually people within the Vajrayana who are very insular and indoctrinated, hanging-off the words of their Lamas, and haven’t studied more widely (which is quite a lot in reality) and don’t know any better. They claim to have studied foundational teachings, but in fact they have not, and probably wouldn’t know what a Nikaya was and where to find it (or more ignorantly still, that they are not relevant).Unfortunately, this is the stark truth of the matter.

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  140. I was making a joke. You can dismiss it if you wish. However, there is so much sectarian fighting within Buddhism (both branches) that what I said is partially true. It’s not that any original texts are dismissed, but the different schools interpret them differently. The Vajrayanists claim that the Pali and Mahayana texts are the foundation of Vajrayana, so they aren’t dismissing the foundational teachings of Buddhism. They always claim that Vajrayana is built upon those foundational teachings and they even urge the study of those teachings. The problem is that various sects are always fighting about what is the “real” Buddhism. Not much different from any religion fighting amongst themselves about sectarian issues. You find the same thing In Christianity. I fail to see why it is important to get caught up in a sectarian argument. It’s more important to examine the Vajrayana itself, rather than arguing about its origins. But that’s just my take on it.

    sankappa, on January 13, 2014 at 12:21 am said:

    Anonymous, on January 12, 2014 at 6:08 pm said:

    Buddhism is empty of inherent Buddhism, ha, ha! One person’s “Buddhism” is another person’s “non-Buddhism” so there is no point in debating this issue regarding whether Tantra is or isn’t Buddhism.

    Well fortunately you are incorrect Anonymous. That is why in Buddhism we are lucky to have such a comprehensive set of foundational teachings, derived from the Pali Nikayas and reflected in the Chinese Agamas.

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  141. dialogueireland, on January 12, 2014 at 11:27 pm said:

    Also it is clear that the full frontal attack launched by Chris was like a nuclear strike. Thanks for your consideration.

    I’m not sure I totally agree with your analogy here DI, and would personally like to acknowledge and thank Chris for her amazing contribution. The amount of time and effort expended and her inside knowledge into the machinations of Tibetan “Buddhism” cannot be underestimated.

    Thanks Chris! Hope you are well and still around and that you are still going to contribute to this discussion.

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  142. Anonymous, on January 12, 2014 at 6:08 pm said:

    Buddhism is empty of inherent Buddhism, ha, ha! One person’s “Buddhism” is another person’s “non-Buddhism” so there is no point in debating this issue regarding whether Tantra is or isn’t Buddhism.

    Well fortunately you are incorrect Anonymous. That is why in Buddhism we are lucky to have such a comprehensive set of foundational teachings, derived from the Pali Nikayas and reflected in the Chinese Agamas. Incidentally the importance of these two volumes lies in the fact that their contents reflect each other very closely, giving support that they are in fact the early teachings and very likely closely reflect the actual words of the Buddha, yet were written down by different people, at different times in vastly different geographical locations. So yes, we do have quite a definitive bench mark of what Buddhadhamma actually is, other wise you could just throw any old shit in and call it Buddhadhamma, which is actually what the Vajrayana has done. One of the most outrageous attempts at this is to try and pass-off Tantric Couple Copulation practices as a genuine Buddhist practice, when actually ‘abstinence’ for the later stages of awakening was taught.

    Furhter to this, there is actually a very clear basis of agreement between the traditions on what these foundational principles are:

    Basic Points Unifying the Theravāda and the Mahāyāna

    The Basic Points Unifying the Theravāda and the Mahāyāna is an important Buddhist ecumenical statement created in 1967 during the First Congress of the World Buddhist Sangha Council (WBSC), where its founder Secretary-General, the late Venerable Pandita Pimbure Sorata Thera, requested the Ven. Walpola Rahula to present a concise formula for the unification of all the different Buddhist traditions. This text was then unanimously approved by the Council.

    Text of the Original Document

    1. The Buddha is our only Master (teacher and guide)
    2. We take refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma and the Saṅgha (the Three Jewels)
    3. We do not believe that this world is created and ruled by a God.
    4. We consider that the purpose of life is to develop compassion for all living beings without discrimination and to work for their good, happiness, and peace; and to develop wisdom (prajñā) leading to the realization of Ultimate Truth
    5. We accept the Four Noble Truths, namely duḥkha, the arising of duḥkha, the cessation of duḥkha, and the path leading to the cessation of duḥkha; and the law of cause and effect (pratītyasamutpāda)
    6. All conditioned things (saṃskāra) are impermanent (anitya) and duḥkha, and that all conditioned and unconditioned things (dharma) are without self (anātma) (see trilaksana).
    7. We accept the thirty-seven qualities conducive to enlightenment (bodhipakṣadharma) as different aspects of the Path taught by the Buddha leading to Enlightenment.
    8. There are three ways of attaining bodhi or Enlightenment: namely as a disciple (śrāvaka), as a pratyekabuddha and as a samyaksambuddha (perfectly and fully enlightened Buddha). We accept it as the highest, noblest, and most heroic to follow the career of a Bodhisattva and to become a samyaksambuddha in order to save others.
    9. We admit that in different countries there are differences regarding Buddhist beliefs and practices. These external forms and expressions should not be confused with the essential teachings of the Buddha.

    Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Points_Unifying_the_Therav%C4%81da_and_the_Mah%C4%81y%C4%81na

    Very interesting isn’t it? When you take time to read this, you find that they are very encompassing points of agreement, yet importantly, there is no where you could fit Tantric Couple Copulation into to this as a Buddhist ‘practice’ (if you have made a study of genuine Dhamma, that is), let alone the main ‘practice’ for awakening. Not in a pink fit! The fact that the Vajrayana keep asserting that it is a Buddhist practice, speaks volumes about their deceit and disingenuousness, IMO.

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  143. Joanna said, “These are authors such as Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Bhavavavika, Bhudapalita, and Shantarakshita, as well as his student Kamalashila.”

    As far as I know, most Chinese Buddhists recognize Bodhidharma as the first Chinese patriarch, and his successors are all Chan patriarchs who advocated for the realization of the true Mind and the Buddha-nature. Most people have never heard of most of the above names except for perhaps Nagarjuna.

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  144. Thanks Sankappa. Could I make a request for you to consider collating the various comments and how they fit into the argument you are making? Joanne and Beluga’s discussion et al. Also it is clear that the full frontal attack launched by Chris was like a nuclear strike. Thanks for your consideration.

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  145. So far Joanne, you have not provided ANY evidence to support your view that Tantric Couple Copulation practices are Buddhist.

    Secondly you say:

    Sankhappa, the Pali canon has no place– and Chinese Buddhism is merely a diversion which doesn’t help advance our case.

    The Pali Nikayas and the Chinese Agamas are pre-sectarian documents. Do you understand this? Before there was any Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana.The suttas contained therein are the bedrock of Buddhadhamma, the actual closest record that we have of Buddhavacana. All AUTHENTIC Dhamma from later teachers has been based on these discourses! The fact that you claim that the “Pali Canon has no place”, shows the sheer ignorance of your understanding of Buddhism, and or the desperation of your argument to make such a ridiculous, ill-informed assertion. You know, the discourses elucidating the foundational teachings of the Four Noble Truths, on which all other teachings are based? Where the eff do you think they came from? This assertion Joanne, gives you away as the extremist you have actually become, and the lengths you will go to support such fallacious statements as the “Pali Canon has no place” in this discussion! If this is the actual position of the Vajrayana, it just further supports the case that it is not Buddhadhamma.

    So let me restate clearly Joanne, you have NOT provided any evidence that Tantric Couple Copulation practices are Buddhist. These practices are diametrically opposed to the practices the Buddha prescribed to take us to full awakening. On this point there cannot be any clearer distinction between the two. And if this is the Vajrayana’s main prescribed practice for awakening, then as many of us have been saying around here, it brings into question the authenticity of Tibetan Buddhism as Buddhadhamma, and the more likely scenario that it is derived from a Brahmanistic/Hindu source, where these practices are widely accepted.

    Furthermore, I do note that even your Mahayana cousins (of which Tibetan Buddhism is part of) are finding the claim that Tantric Sexual Unions and the Vajrayana are genuine Buddhism, particularity hard to swallow. Not just here on DI but on other fora. Yes, the Vajrayana is a little more than on the nose, pushing these outrageous claims.

    So come on Joanne, the onus is still on you to provide the evidence, of this ridiculous and extreme claim that Tantric Couple Copulation practices are genuine Buddhist practices, from FOUNDATIONAL sources, because so far you have not provided one shred.

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  146. I love this I am not that Anonymous, we can see the IP friend. So I suggest you use another name so we all do not get confused. From the real DI!

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  147. Follow up – just so there is no confusion, when I talk about “what Tantra actually is” I don’t mean whether it is or isn’t Buddhism. The mian question is what they are teaching in secret – PERIOD, regardless of what “ism” label you stick on it. Only when that kind of information comes to light can one judge whether it is real Buddhism or not.

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  148. I suspect that most of the sexual abuse going on in these Tibetan Buddhist groups is not really Tantra at all. A lot of these sexual relations are just plain, old sex and have nothing to do with Vajrayana, other than a convenient label that lamas use to entice women into bed.

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  149. By the way, I am not the same “Anonymous ” you are addressing. There is more than one Anonymous here. Speaking for myself, without being a scholar, I simply can’t have an educated opinion these kinds of questions because I am too ignorant. In addition, this is a debate that will go on forever. From my own experience in listening to Vajrayana teachings, they seem to be based very soundly in Buddhist philosophy – at least what they teach publicly about Vajrayana. What concerns me is that some of the secret teachings seem to be written in such a way as to encourage abuse and brainwashing, etc. As for its origins, it depends on who you ask. People who follow the Pali branch of Buddhism will always say Tantra isn’t Buddhism. They have always claimed this and there will never be an end to this debate. People who follow the Indian branch of Buddhism will never be convinced that Vajrayana isn’t Buddhism, so there is no way to change their point of view. Buddhism is empty of inherent Buddhism, ha, ha! One person’s “Buddhism” is another person’s “non-Buddhism” so there is no point in debating this issue regarding whether Tantra is or isn’t Buddhism. What concerns me is what IS Tantra *supposed to be* and is the law of inversion written into the formula or have corrupt people simply warped a viable tradition? Because it is so secret, it is hard to get accurate information. I think in this information age, there needs to be more authentic disclosing of what Tantra actually IS and what the proper practices entail. otherwise, lamas will misuse it and claim they are practicing Tantra when they really are not.

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  150. Sankhappa, you say,

    “The onus is on you Joanne, to show clearly, from either the Pali Canon or the Chinese Agamas where the Buddha taught any Tantra, let alone Tantric Couple Copulation practices. These two sources are now universally considered to be the oldest and most reliable sources of what the Buddha actually taught.”

    This is a good question because it reveals where differences lie. The origin of my point of view does not lie with the Pali canon nor with Chinese scriptural sources nor even with Tibetan Buddhist commentaries. My point of view– and that described by the Dalai Lama in the quote which beluga provided– originates from the Indian Buddhist scriptures in the Sanskrit tradition. These are authors such as Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Bhavavavika, Bhudapalita, and Shantarakshita, as well as his student Kamalashila.

    They are the founders of the Buddhist Mahayana tradition which both China and Tibet inherited.

    I repeat: Sankhappa, the debate about the authenticity of tantra began BEFORE Buddhism came to Tibet and was between proponents of the Pali tradition and those of the ancient Indian Sanskrit tradition as described by those authors I named. If we want to discuss whether Tibetan Buddhism is authentic or not– and whether tantra as practiced by Tibetan Buddhists is authentic or not, we must begin with authentic Indian sources.

    And then, we must discuss whether Anonymous has a case when he/she claims that Tibetan Buddhism is not authentic Mahayana Buddhism. In that discussion, Sankhappa, the Pali canon has no place– and Chinese Buddhism is merely a diversion which doesn’t help advance our case.

    I will remind Beluga and Anonymous that the primary and only scriptural source of Mahayana Buddhism, whether we are talking about tantra or sutra, is the Indian Sanskrit writings– that is where this discussion has to be based.

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  151. Whether it was originally intended to be a lie and deceive, who knows. But it is certainly being perpetuated. Maybe, even many of the Lamas, haven’t even considered whether what they practice is in accord with Buddhadhamma, being so caught-up in the system of Lamaism. However, this does not hold-up as an excuse now.

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  152. In my opinion the Mahayana Buddhism and the familie of the Bodhisattvas are not in the radar of Tibetan Tantric Lamaism!
    It’s simply a lie.

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  153. beluga424, on January 11, 2014 at 2:42 am said:

    “It is for this reason that in all the schools of the Kagyupas, Gelugpas, and Sakyapas, the transmission of lineage goes back to Vajradhara. Why it goes back to Vajradhara and not to Shakyamuni Buddha is that it refers directly back to the essence of enlightenment, the origin of the light, which is the sun itself and not just the light of the sun.”

    Says who? The Kagyupas, Gelugpas, and Sakyapas obviously. This is a good point you raise beluga424. What is revealed here is they have very little time for the historical Buddha, who’s Dhamma it is. They try to bypass him and the actual teachings/discourses at every step, to put themselves in the position of authority. The Lamaists at best pay only lip service to the Buddha. This is the essence of Lamaism as has been discussed here. The above is the type of twaddle that they dress-up as Dhamma, conveniently side-stepping the Buddha, because what is important is not Buddhadhamma but worshiping the Lamas,Tulkus and Rinpoches. Notice they never defer to the historical Buddha. He is not even on their radar.

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  154. beluga424 you have now moved the discussion from Lamaism Discussion back to the Tantric site. May I suggest that you and Sankappa discuss this and you read the other comments as I need to go to bed it is 3AM here, whereas you guys have time on your side.
    The main point I am trying to avoid is have a lot of debates about Buddhist philosophy and miss the Tantric issue or have it drowned out. Could as I say read have you read the material and I would ask you and sankappa to debate it and I will then locate it where you guys think it needs to be.
    It seems Joanne is happy to debate with you and we do want there to open debate.
    Thanks
    DI

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  155. DI,

    Got your message about posting on the right thread.Sankappa and I were arguing that from either the Nikaya, the Agamas, or the Mahayana sutras that I read, Buddha never said a word about this Tantric school or taught any tenets that are congruous with the Tantric doctrines.

    http://www.kagyu.org/kagyulineage/lineage/kag01.php

    “It is for this reason that in all the schools of the Kagyupas, Gelugpas, and Sakyapas, the transmission of lineage goes back to Vajradhara. Why it goes back to Vajradhara and not to Shakyamuni Buddha is that it refers directly back to the essence of enlightenment, the origin of the light, which is the sun itself and not just the light of the sun.”

    The above is a quote from the link you posted. It’s asserting that the essence of enlightenment is the sun itself. The Dalai Lama however says that it is from the continuum of mind that all dharam comes into being, and that mind does not come from matter. As Sankappa pointed out, their teachings are self-contradictory, and have no basis in Buddha’s teachings.

    Contrary to their claims, many Buddhists believe that after Buddha entered nirvana, many practices of Hinduism became incorporated into the Buddha dharma as fewer and fewer people were able to attain enlightenment. And those “Buddhists” who practiced tantras pilfered Buddhist terminologies to dress up their practices as Buddhist.

    Sorry I haven’t had time to read all the previous posts. So feel free to move this post to the other thread if you think it belongs there.

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  156. Sankappa
    beluga424 has kindly moved the more philosophical issues I asked to be kept in the Lamaism Discussion section.
    Just to let you know.

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  157. Anonymous have you been on vacation, just dropping that material you did does not wash…. You have like Joanne come back to life as Chris is away. We are way beyond these droppings, my issue was a technical one of clarifying the distinction between the ideology of Buddhism which was beginning to dominate this post and the specifics of Tantric Couple Copulation Lamaism. We want to keep that discussion separate as much as possible. We are not asking if these practices are Buddhist we have already concluded that as
    Sankappa has explained below:

    I have just noticed your post above @ 4:35pm, stating that these are the questions Joanne would like answered. You are putting the cart before the horse here. It is, as I have outlined in my previous two posts,

    for Joanne to prove the case that Tantric Couple Copulation IS Buddhism, as is the title of this thread!

    In conclusion we have reached that conclusion months ago, and the onus is on anyone wanting to show the opposite to give evidence for their argument here. That does not mean copying and pasting other peoples ideas or quoting the DL

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  158. One would have to ask a Tibetan scholar/lama to explain how Tantra (sex practice) is considered part of traditional Buddhism. According to Tibetan Buddhism, Vajradhara is the Tantric form of the Buddha and he was the originator of Tantra. Since he is supposed to be the actual Buddha in another form, it is believed that the Tantras came from the Buddha through the Vajradhara emanation. They say he appeared as Vajradhara and taught the Tantra to a very limited number of people. From there, the Tantra spread further and they claim to trace their lineages all the way back to the Buddha.

    But of course, a Tibetan scholar/lama would say that, wouldn’t they? And this is the crux of the matter, this whole kind of fantasy stuff dressed-up as being somehow factual to make it Buddhadhamma, is the root of the problem, when it’s clearly from another source. It just is simply not Buddhadhamma. It may be some other Dhamma, but not Buddhadhamma

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  159. These links are not to get off the topic of sex and Tantra but just to put into context some of their beliefs about where it originated.

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  160. One would have to ask a Tibetan scholar/lama to explain how Tantra (sex practice) is considered part of traditional Buddhism. According to Tibetan Buddhism, Vajradhara is the Tantric form of the Buddha and he was the originator of Tantra. Since he is supposed to be the actual Buddha in another form, it is believed that the Tantras came from the Buddha through the Vajradhara emanation. They say he appeared as Vajradhara and taught the Tantra to a very limited number of people. From there, the Tantra spread further and they claim to trace their lineages all the way back to the Buddha.

    More information can be found here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajradhara

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  161. Thanks I had missed your earlier comments. It clear to me now but the Beluga issues are not.
    Thanks

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  162. dialogueireland, on January 11, 2014 at 12:49 am said:

    Could do your best to summarise the issues and hopefully Joanne will reply and see if Beluga is on board.

    I have already outlined very clearly above how I believe this needs to be approached, which is very much in accord with the position that DI already has: That Lamaism and its practices are not Buddhism. Or am I mistaken?

    There are many practices and beliefs that differ, but if there is one practice that most clearly illustrates the difference between Buddhadhamma and other spiritual paths, then Tantric Couple Copulation would be it, as is evidenced by so many of the current problems stemming from it. As the Buddha predicted, it would be false Dhamma (teachings) that would cause the problems and ultimately be the downfall of the Buddhist path.

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  163. Indeed we have had a cart horse problem. Joanne was asked a question by Beluga and replied on a Lamasism thread. Beluga replied to a philosophical question and Joanne sensing her opportunity with Chris jumping overboard started whining about censorship. Meanwhile it was hand to hand combat on the thread. Could you do your best to summarise the issues and hopefully Joanne will reply and see if Beluga is on board. Hopefully you have noted the time zones and quiet after the storm?

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  164. DI, I have just noticed your post above @ 4:35pm, stating that these are the questions Joanne would like answered. You are putting the cart before the horse here. It is, as I have outlined in my previous two posts, for Joanne to prove the case that Tantric Couple Copulation IS Buddhism, as is the title of this thread!

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  165. I just want to reemphasise here that Tantric Couple Copulation practices are not some later addition to Buddhism outside of the early discourses that could be considered, when examined, to be in accord with Buddhadhamma. They are actually the antithesis to, diametrically opposed to what the Buddha taught as Practices for awakening, and they clearly come from another source absolutely and definitively.This is no small point, or grey area that we are discussing here, but is a fundamental difference between Buddhadhamma and other spiritual paths. So a I am going to hold you to this claim Joanne, and you will need to point to evidence of this from the earliest and most comprehensive sources of Buddhadhamma, The Pali Nikayas and/or the Chinese Agamas, otherwise your claims a just your indoctrinated and regurgitated shonk out of Lamaism.

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  166. The onus is on you Joanne, to show clearly, from either the Pali Canon or the Chinese Agamas where the Buddha taught any Tantra, let alone Tantric Couple Copulation practices. These two sources are now universally considered to be the oldest and most reliable sources of what the Buddha actually taught.

    So come on, point to the teachings from these two volumes on ANY tantra that the Buddha taught. The onus is on you to prove this, not on us to disprove your shonky Hindu/Brahmin claims.

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  167. Joanne is right that we can’t avoid discussing what Buddhism is in this thread.

    Everything on these threads is about Buddhism but I have clearly defined for future discussion the rules of engagement. As you say below they can be moved if necessary, but for the moment we will leave them as they are.
    I do not want to have a discussion on other issues like Different Buddhist beliefs or philosophical schools, psychology, the history of Tibet, democratic deficits, Chinese Communism on here.

    Only
    Tantric Couple Copulation Lamaism is not Buddhism

    DI, if you think our discussion is off topic, please feel free to move any of my posting to another thread. Really appreciate DI’s effort and time in monitoring, supervising, and keeping us focused in this forum. Have a good weekend everyone.

    I will leave your last comments on this thread but have outlined for your and Joanne’s information how I would like you to continue your discussion:
    1. Keep Buddhist philosophical issues on this thread:
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion
    2. Tantric sexual issues on this one. We do not want to have this issue getting mired in a discussion of Buddhism.

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  168. beluga424 you are posing philosophical questions which were answered by Joanne yesterday on our
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion
    You have now come back to this thread which is dedicated to the Tantric Couple Copulation Lamaism is not Buddhism thread and have confused us. Could you please in future:
    1. Keep Buddhist philosophical issues on this thread:
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion
    2. Tantric sexual issues on this one. We do not want to have this issue getting mired in a discussion of Buddhism.

    My question is, what are the relationship between these terms and what does a practitioner become “enlightened” to through practicing the Tantra?

    This is the series of questions she wishes to have addressed:

    1. The Tibetan Buddhist tradition is based on the Indian Buddhist tradition.

    2. Tantric practice originated in the Indian Buddhist tradition. The debate about its authenticity began long before Buddhism came to Tibet.

    3. There are clear and fundamental differences between Buddhist tantra and Hindu tantra.

    3. Tantric union (“copulation”) is an advanced, esoteric practice and can only be practiced properly when the practitioner has gained so much control and realization that he does not even ejaculate (e.g. copulate). If the practitioner practices union in any other way, then this is abuse and does not prove that the practice itself is inauthentic.

    4. In fact, tantra is not even supposed to be spoken of on public forums such as this one because it is an advanced practice and there is risk for misunderstanding.

    5. Tibetans have allowed practice of tantra to spread widely and publicly. I (and others) believe that is a fault of theirs and needs to be addressed. There is an ancient quote about this: “Tibetans practice many deities and do not gain realization of even one, whereas Indians practice only one deity and gain realization of many.”

    Once again, I point to the fact that abuses and misbehaviors within TB culture do NOT prove that Tibetan Buddhism itself is inauthentic.

    And why won’t DI allow discussions about tantra to occur on a thread about tantra??????!!!!

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  169. 1. IDDHIVIDHA – the power of transformation;2. DIBBASOTA – celestial hearing 3. CETOPARIYA. – the power of discernment of the mind of others; 4. PUBBENIVASA – the power of knowing previous existences; 5. DIBBA-CAKKHU – celestial vision; 6. ASAVAKKHAYA – supra-mundane knowledge

    The above 6 powers are some of the powers a Buddha is said to possess. The Buddha’s ten epithets also describe his other powers/knowledge, for instance, knowledge of all mundane dharma. In other words, one who has attained Buddhahood is not only omniscient but has also acquired immense powers inconceivable to human beings.

    Like Professor Joachim Kreuger questioned in his blog and his article on Psychology Today, I can’t see the Dalai Lama (or any other Living Tulkus) as deserving his rarefied status, especially given all these powers and transcendent wisdom attributed to a Buddha.

    Joanne is right that we can’t avoid discussing what Buddhism is in this thread. Here I’m not trying to convince Joanne of my view, just want to present my “version” of Buddha Dharma. Even within Chinese, Japanese, or Korean Buddhism, there are many conflicting views as well.

    DI, if you think our discussion is off topic, please feel free to move any of my posting to another thread. Really appreciate DI’s effort and time in monitoring, supervising, and keeping us focused in this forum. Have a good weekend everyone.

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  170. To Joanne,

    To Joanne,

    The following is a quote from the Dalai Lama, who has in many forums and seminars talked about the clear light, continuum of consciousness, the four elements, as well as the subtle consciousness. My question is, what are the relationship between these terms and what does a practitioner become “enlightened” to through practicing the Tantra?

    In Chan Buddhism, we seek to become enlightened to the True Mind, the Alayavijnana as mentioned in the following quote of the DL. To find this Mind, one has to train up one’s meditative concentration skill via one of the many dharma-gates (eg. Buddha-remembrance) that Buddha taught. Also one needs to verify one’s personal realization with Buddha’s teachings in the sutras. A lot of times, practitioners mistake a state of the conscious mind (for instance, when the conscious mind is in a samadhi state) as the True Mind.

    Question: What is the nature of the mindstream that reincarnates from lifetime to lifetime?

    Dalai Lama: …If one understands the term “soul” as a continuum of individuality from moment to moment, from lifetime to lifetime, then one can say that Buddhism also accepts a concept of soul; there is a kind of continuum of consciousness. From that point of view, the debate on whether or not there is a soul becomes strictly semantic. However, in the Buddhist doctrine of selflessness, or “no soul” theory, the understanding is that there is no eternal, unchanging, abiding, permanent self called “soul.” That is what is being denied in Buddhism.
    Buddhism does not deny the continuum of consciousness. Because of this, we find some Tibetan scholars, such as the Sakya master Rendawa, who accept that there is such a thing as self or soul, the “kangsak ki dak” (Tib. gang zag gi bdag). However, the same word, the “kangsak ki dak,” the self, or person, or personal self, or identity, is at the same time denied by many other scholars.
    We find diverse opinions, even among Buddhist scholars, as to what exactly the nature of self is, what exactly that thing or entity is that continues from one moment to the next moment, from one lifetime to the next lifetime. Some try to locate it within the aggregates, the composite of body and mind. Some explain it in terms of a designation based on the body and mind composite, and so on…. One of the divisions of [the “Mind-Only”] school maintains there is a special continuum of consciousness called alayavijnana which is the fundamental consciousness.

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  171. You may not have noticed in her reply she moved to a discussion of being etc. You replied to her on the
    Lamaism thread. So did Sankappa which was moved. Your current comment is in the right location. We have had a lot of abuse of our site and will be ruthless in protecting our threads. Beluga is in a very different time zone so now to 11 am your time is the window for engaging. Also do not see the absence of Chris as giving you the green light to move in. We are well educated on your goals.
    In case you have not noticed here is what you wrote yesterday on the Lamaism thread in reply to Beluga:Joanne
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion
    Submitted on 2014/01/09 at 6:59 pm

    beluga 424, fyi, there are philosophical positions within Indian Buddhism– which Tibetan Buddhism has inherited– that adhere to some form of inherent existence in reality. Both the Chitamatra (or Mind Only) school and the sautantrika madyamaka have philosophical stances that do not negate inherent existence to the degree that the Prasangika madyamaka do. So there are different philosophical positions, even within Tibetan Buddhism– different extremes in their views on emptiness.

    And many of the differences that Sankhappa has with Tibetan Buddhism are not differences that have anything to do with Tibetan Buddhism, but were debates which existed long before Buddhism even came to Tibet! The debate about tantra is a prime example of that.

    I may be wrong, but I believe that the differences between the Chan and the Tibetan Buddhist had more to do with the role of discursive thought in meditation. The Chinese position was that a meditative state of no-thought could lead to enlightenment, while the Tibetan Buddhist (and Indian) position was that thought itself was needed in order to deepen insight. For example, in Tibetan Buddhism, analytical meditation plays a big role. There was a famous debate between the Chan master Hashan and the Tibetan master Kamalashila about this topic. We are told that Kamalashila won– but maybe you are told that Hashan won ha ha…
    I note that Beluga is now not replying to your latest comment about Tantra, but to your theoretical discussion about Being but yesterday’s on the wrong thread. So will have to keep editing and moving.

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  172. DI, my conversation with beluga was about Hindu and Buddhist tantric practices– is that not relevant to this discussion?

    Also, you repeatedly tell us, on this thread and others, to stick to the theme: TB equals Lamaism. Yet, when I attempt to discuss Tibetan Buddhism, in the context of considering whether or not it is authentic (or just “Lamaism”), you move my comments.

    Question: How can one discuss a formula such as “A equals B” without first discussing what A and B are?

    Answer: you can do this through inane, emotionally charged, distracting diatribes such as Chris’s– and through silly preoccupations such as Dan Goleman’s book and the latest gossip on lamas.

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  173. DI, my discussion with beluga was regarding Hindu and Buddhist tantric practices. I thought that was rather relevant to this thread?

    Also, you are the one who repeatedly tells us to stick to this theme: TB equals Lamaism. Even on this thread, you instructed us to do this. Yet whenever I discuss TB, my comment is removed!

    Question: How can one discuss the formula– A equals B– without discussing what A and B are????

    Answer: One does this by falling into inane, emotionally charged, distracting diatribes, such as Chris’s. (EG, one can discuss Dan Goleman and gossip about lamas but one cannot discuss the authenticity of Tibetan Buddhism!)

    This comment has been approved and moved out of spam

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  174. Joanne you are having a senior moment. Nothing has been removed just moved to the appropriate thread. Your philosophical discussion with beluga is now part of the Lamaism debate. Issues related to sexual tantra are addressed here and only here. If you try to sneak other items here we will move them. We do not spend 24 hours monitoring the blog. Also I only see some of the text on my phone so there is a delay in responding as we do not hold comments till they are checked.

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  175. DI, how can one discuss your formula, TB equals Lamaism without discussing Tibetan Buddhism??!! Whenever the discussion turns to an attempt at intelligent consideration of what Tibetan Buddhism is, you remove the comments!!! It appears you are frightened of the truth.

    At risk at being removed, here are some Truths. These are facts which can be proven:

    1. The Tibetan Buddhist tradition is based on the Indian Buddhist tradition.

    2. Tantric practice originated in the Indian Buddhist tradition. The debate about its authenticity began long before Buddhism came to Tibet.

    3. There are clear and fundamental differences between Buddhist tantra and Hindu tantra.

    3. Tantric union (“copulation”) is an advanced, esoteric practice and can only be practiced properly when the practitioner has gained so much control and realization that he does not even ejaculate (e.g. copulate). If the practitioner practices union in any other way, then this is abuse and does not prove that the practice itself is inauthentic.

    4. In fact, tantra is not even supposed to be spoken of on public forums such as this one because it is an advanced practice and there is risk for misunderstanding.

    5. Tibetans have allowed practice of tantra to spread widely and publicly. I (and others) believe that is a fault of theirs and needs to be addressed. There is an ancient quote about this: “Tibetans practice many deities and do not gain realization of even one, whereas Indians practice only one deity and gain realization of many.”

    Once again, I point to the fact that abuses and misbehaviors within TB culture do NOT prove that Tibetan Buddhism itself is inauthentic.

    And why won’t DI allow discussions about tantra to occur on a thread about tantra??????!!!!

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  176. …here she goes again..DI isn’t doing her bidding so she’s throwing insults again.

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  177. And no, I am not paranoid about Lamas and Lamaism taking over the world anymore, after ‘conversing’ with their fanatic defenders of their Godmen and their positions on lamaism, ,from their ‘1/2 in 1/2 out, or semi out or whatever part of them is still in the cult of Lamaism, because anyone, with still one ‘little toe’ in Lamaism, let alone one foot in Lamaism or anyone associated with them who still believes in this con game they are playing on the world? Are too stupid to be a real threat to anyone. That is the other comforting thing I learned by conversing in this ‘free for all’ allowed on DI in the name of curbing cults. . So I thank DI, for that , i.e. allaying any fears I had that these people could find their way across the street, let alone take over the world.

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  178. You allow libelous comments from trolls , that no other site on earth would allow showered on a real person,(yet you called their comments “libel” when it came to a Tawain group being called what? “Chinese”!

    Perhaps it gives more ‘entertainment’ value, to DI to allow this free for all, and thus more traffic. .Lets see how much traffic you have, when its down to Joanne, obsessivly cutting and pasting the DL, and Ecumenical discussing the issues of Lamaism.

    But hey, its giving me a great forum to hone my thoughts and a ‘dialectic’ to draw the cult members out and futher see how thought controlled they really are. I had no idea of the depth of it. So we are even. I don’t need to suck any of this up anymore. We have both benefited, now enjoy the rest of the show with the rest of those that are here to just be ‘entertained.” ..

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  179. This thread is dedicated to debating the nature of Tantra in TB=Lamaism. It is not a place to discuss other issues or the philosophical presuppositions of Buddhism. Please allow comments on this theme to be central here. Other comments will be moved to appropriate threads. Don’t take the movement of your comment as a slap in the face, but as post that has been delivered to the wrong address.

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  180. I would never have guessed it. ………………….moved to https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/commenting-policy/

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  181. PS:………………………..moved to https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/commenting-policy/

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  182. I think my spelling is fine thanks! But if you look at chris’ comment at 7.36, lines 5 and 6 regarding monarchists, this makes no sense whatsoever. Night night!

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  183. ecumenical buddhist

    Why do you comment under ecumenical buddhist if you are no longer involved in Buddhism?………………………..moved to https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/commenting-policy/

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  184. You as usual have allowed yourself to go from a clear position to be sidelined by a troll. You must know as much as I do that though I do not like it we must allow contrary views on here. By your engaging her you have been sucked into her web. We do not ban people but put comments that are offensive into the commenting policy section.
    Other comments we move into the Lamaism section. You repeatedly broaden the issues beyond the thread. So suck it up and just focus on your main theme Lamaism.
    We have told you are free to publish any post you like, but please stop jumping from Billy to Jack.

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  185. Psychobuddhists, …………………moved to https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/commenting-policy/

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  186. throwing the toys out of the pram ……………………..moved to https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/commenting-policy/

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  187. Yes, DI and as long as you allow anonymous people to make outrageous libelous remarks to real people, and to hide from cover while doing it, I will not post on here either, That was not the spirit of the “anonymous” monikers,

    , it was to protect people from being unmercilessly attacked, and hounded and demonized because they were saying critical things about cults, since you have not respected that for me, and have allowed cult members and goons to have a “free for all” on people who sincerely have tried to add to the understanding of cults, I am not posting anywhere and you can put my posts whereever you please. Or not.

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  188. Maybe she’s raw because I sussed her out …………………..moved to https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/commenting-policy/

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  189. Chris I am ceasing to respond to Ecumenical Buddhist, may I suggest unless she actually contributes to the thread we will continue to move her comments to our commenting policy. As your replies are now diverting you from this thread I will add them to our commenting policy as well. You have done a lot to help us to understand this area, but engaging with her is actually using up a lot of your energy which could be further utilised for research. May I recommend you consider doing the same

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  190. I’m not looking for fame, so i don’t need to put myself out there……………….moved to https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/commenting-policy/

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  191. Abuse is wrong, everyone, including paedophiles know that………….
    moved to https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/commenting-policy/

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  192. And of course you and……………. moved to https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/commenting-policy/

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  193. Dan Goleman , ecumenical buddhist, is a stone cold cult member of Sogyal the predator’s cult of Lamaism abuse, and is a popular and well -known clinical psychologist, who has written among other books, “Emotional Intelligence’ and is part of the Dalai Lama’s Mind Life Institute that is promoting ‘mindfulness training’ through out all western cultural institutions. and now in corporate business models that Forbes and Harvard Business school is promoting. . So really all you have done ecumenicalbuddhist while you have been on this site, is really now to distract, to take away from the content, like not watching the video, and spewing out anti-Christian and anti Chinese comments, and adhominem attacks against DI, and me, and this knee jerk engaging in ad hominem attacks and distractions, and that the psychobuddhists are a big big part of the problems in the west today and why cults are exploding and why sexual abuse in these cults is ignored, because you have no longer any psychologists , or at least not a critical mass of them , anymore , that can use critical intelligence or even bother to read anything anymore, they have been ‘meditating for so long.’ and have come under the ‘influence’. I don’t think, even if you knew now what he is doing, , and why it was wrong, that it would even register, ecumenicalbuddhist. I don’t.

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  194. DI you are on another planet…conditioned devotee of what?

    I am connected with no religion at all. are you for real or do you just talk through a hole in your head?

    I won’t join in the collective attack on someone who means nothing to me and this man goleman is just a name i heard here.
    now, DI, if you want to take him on, do so, but make sure you are not being led into something you could regret. I’m not being dragged into your crusades , they may earn you some donations and be your raison d’etre, but i’m not that committed to it.

    All I’m doing here is defending myself as an individual under attack from the agendas being laid out in print.

    if chris says ‘jump in the river’…will you?

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  195. I don’t know why you’re so upset at the psychology profession in general when you yourself have put up a link to a ‘psychology today’ article which is describing the dl as a ‘brand’…..they appear to be agreeing with your stance.

    I think you generalise and insult. I was a psychologist for 2 years in the 1980s.
    You say you were one for decades, but on the gut feeling i get from your posts, you didn’t learn much about successful communicaqtion strategies.

    When I see reams of tirade, i just switch off, pity, as there’s something worth saying if you can cut away all the stuff obscuring it.

    And…maybe my opinions are not so important to me as i don’t take myself so seriously.

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  196. PS: DI, why haven’t you blocked me yet?

    Because we like to show people what the conditioned devotee is like. Filled with vitriol and incapable of following the thread without spewing out tangents. Like a child wanting to be disciplined…..

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  197. You had plenty of opinions on here, until I insulted ‘psychologists” . Tell her who Dan Goleman is Joanne? Or don’t you know either?

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  198. Maybe I just don’t take your ravings seriously because they sound a bit like a louis theroux weird weekend.

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  199. Tell Ecumenical who Dan Goleman is Joanne. , who in all this time and all these posts, has never even been curious about who Dan Goleman is, Just, once again attacked what I was saying about him (and I have mentioned him in most of my posts recently) doesn’t care. So how can you have any opinion about this, including personal attacks about my psychological health?.( I know that old trick you forget, ecumencialbuddhist , I was a psychologist and LCSW for decades. I know that old ‘call them crazy’ trick and you can put yourself in the cat’s seat. . Of course your record here is a document to your rational objective discourse as a ‘professional’ right?

    You and Joanne make a perfect pair, I take it back Joanne, you should become part of the “new human helping professionals group” that doesn’t even read anything anymore , but has loads of personal opinions about who writes them, but could care less about the content. Again, you just prove my point , we are in BIG trouble in this country and the west.

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  200. Chris, I’ve no idea who dan goleman is!
    Yes, I was a buddhist for many years, I personally never suffered any abuse from these lamas, I just met the NKT for a couple of years , decided it was all nonsense and eventually got buddhism out of my system for good.

    I don’t know why you feel the need to pull me into stuff I know nothing about. Should I have an opinion about someone I never heard of till you brought him into this and should I now speak out against this man because you say I should?

    Sorry, that aint gonna happen , and not because I’m a ‘psychologist therefore an enabler’, but because I don’t just join in the bullying at the command of someone who rants like a mad person.

    And yes, Joanne, I’m beginning to think this is a load of new age conspiracy theory myself because of the way it’s being presented here, which would do nothing to convince ‘the man in the street’ I’m sure.

    Leave the sensationalism to the tabloids.

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  201. Joanne , tell Ecumenical Buddhist who Dan Goleman is. “Enlighten her”.

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  202. Notice you haven’t answered my question about Dan Goleman, and as you told us you were a buddhist and under the ‘influence’ for what 23years and a TB Buddhist for several? Still focused on me (I can remember when my mail box was filled with your posts several months ago, now it’s just knee jerk ad hominem attacks, . What about it Eucumenical? Do you think he is breaking his oath as a psychologist and worse to not report this sexual exploitation of his ‘master and leader” and worse, to be out promoting Sogyal, and confusing thousands of woman who come to these retreats when he teaches beside Sogyal, and makes videos about how wonderful Sogyal is a ‘great master” and he particularly increases these behaviors , surprise , surprise right after the documentary in CA came out exposing him ? What do you think , as a psychologist , taking an oath to report harm to others, and as a buddhist, taking a vow to not harm others, what do you think ecumenical buddhist? About Dan Goleman’s behavior, not mine, which you seem to find so ‘virulent.’ and not his?

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  203. Yes, Tara Carreons answer back to Dzongsar hit on all the points succintly, She saw through what he was doing because she was ‘all the way out of cult control’ . You have to come 100% out, (not intellectually believe you are out , like those that come on here with their psuedo “sang froid” until their buttons are pushed easily , much of it developing while being predominantly Christian but anti-monarchial, and about the rest of their western heritage Now we what Kings again! not only kings but GODKINGS the Lamas! Th is anti-westernism is purposely reinforced in these cults of Lamaism. The very first thing these Lamas do when the teach, from their very high thrones , is start putting down the west, you are already in a grouthink situation, and much lower than them on their thrones, and then they start in……. with the western bashing , their own superiority assured because why? They are sitting on thrones!!! And the psychologists in the room don’t notice this! . I would say the psychologists, (and I have to include my self before coming out) have to have become the dumbest group of professionals on earth right now, they have no idea of even the most basic priciples of behavioral control. Do they even take those courses in Behavior Sciences, or did all the Encounter Groups and meditations classes that replaced these curriculum, standard in psychology programs leave those principles of basic 101 Thought Control out and now beyond psychologists comprehension any more? Or maybe they just write about it abstractly, like Elaine Barker, who believes that academics are betting able to tell what a ‘cult is’ , than former cult members of anti cult experts , whom she calls ‘virulent’ also in her ‘oh so objective stance” just like the psychologists and academics that come on here to dispute what anyone is saying, so while psychologists come on here and say’ they are all cults” that is actually part of the new belief system of the new ‘neutral professionals about cults, like the contemporary psychologists, athropologists and sociologists, because” if they are all cults” than they are all equal, and nothing is a ‘cult anymore’ or can be called a cult, because it will offend someone, that is what the ‘new religious movement” moniker was all about , more ‘moral relativism’ and never judging anything. And of course allowing them to become billion dollar empires, like TB has become that no one wants to touch anymore, or criticize, they have become like the multinational corporations, because they are multinational corporations.

    That is exactly what happened to India and acceptance of each and all cults, with these Hindu Lama influences, and women are taking to the streets protesting the rape of 10 year old girls. And no one dares say ‘ Wait a minute! Could it be that 10 11 year old girls are the ideal sexual partner for all these gurus and tantric male practitioners?DUH!!!!!and now you have woman marrying Snake Gods there, and there are so many gurus and godmen and guess what, it is still a caste system while calling itself a ‘democracy in the 21St century!. THAT is the country most admired by the Buddhists and the Hindu loving westerners,(and that’s the underlining neutral philosophy, a HIndu tantric philosophy of “moral relativism” and sexual abuse of girls and women , which is exactly what the more academic types come on here spewing and supporting without even knowing it, by trying to repress and demonize, everyone that calls it out, and unknowingly , because they have been massively ‘stupified’ by these influences, and yet say “Oh no” to themselves, they “are not influenced’

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  204. We are leaving the comment by Chris here as by and large it is still focused on our Tantric topic, for her earlier comments on critical influence and psychological captivity of Dan Goleman to Lamaism see below:
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion

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  205. geez, just taking your post of 5.26pm is a point in illustration….you sound soooo rational, together and sensible…..same old verbal diarrhoea saying the same old insults.

    I don’t even know who that psychologist actually is, never mind what abuse you’re accusing him of, so your trademark diatribe is lost on me.

    An important topic, sexual abuse by these lamas, is lost among all the logorrhoea as usual,just going on and on and on…..have you no job to do that you can take up a foot of space at a time typing with no paragraphs or reasoned argument?

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  206. Ecumenical Buddhist, this used to sound like cult talk to me as well– but recently, it’s beginning to sound clinically paranoid. Those lamas, you know, they’re everywhere, they’re in every country in the world, in every major corporation, in every academic institution, in every political party, in every humanitarian effort– In fact, they’re probably in Chris’s kitchen cupboard at this very minute, plotting to sabotage her computer and then take over her mind…. Watch out, they’re probably in our cupboards as well, probably complete with Hindu talisman and black magic spells, plotting to poison our food and molest our children…. Help!!! Ahhhhhhh!

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  207. And, what an insidious way for China to take Tawain back, and prevent its democracy from expanding, then to let these Lamas and their sexually abusive cult grow and expand in Tawain creating chaos confusion and putting people to sleep.

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  208. Yes, and what I always like about T. Carreon’s writings, (although I can appreciate what she is saying now, much more than when I first read her, once I came all the way out from under any buddhist spell ) has been moved not because it has no relevance to our issue of Lamaism, but we want to keep this Tantric Couple Copulation Lamaism is not Buddhism totally focused. It has been added to:
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion

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  209. They are only too happy to take away the western “myth” of freedom. We may not topple them from self elevated heights in eastern countries but we can tell them to get out of ours!

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  210. I have never studied Buddhism. I have read a few pages of a book and I noticed how the teachings would build a person’s mind up to a state of believing there is the possibility of achieving a higher state of being and in the next paragraph tell you that you are not good enough nor most likely will never achieve it and it goes on and on; a mind game of conflicting thoughts that would confuse rather than enlighten.

    I am actually quite shocked reading what Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche has to say. Most of it is drivel when he compares the style of American leadership to “King Trisong, (who) had the vision to see the social value of Buddhism” in Tibet. Whatever version he brought, since we know the history of Tibet, it did not serve the purpose intended.

    He goes on to say: “The aspiration of a Bodhisattva transcends mere sympathy for “needy” or “helpless” beings. Having that kind of compassion invariably leads one to become co-dependent, insecure and eventually egoistic, because one ends up defining oneself by the extent to which one has helped.”

    He belittles humanitarianism and does not acknowledge the actual down-to-earth support given to those in need. If one feels good about helping someone, why not? One can argue that, for some, there is co-dependency on the “needy” and “helpless”, however, the majority of people give with sincerity through donations of various sorts and do not come into contact with the recipients particularly with catastrophes that take place around the world.

    He says: “By contrast, Bodhisattvas are not attached to their acts of help or the result. Their aim is to liberate beings from the traps of life and the myth of freedom.”

    Why would they be attached to something they do not do?

    He stresses that the Bodhisattvas aim is “to liberate beings from the traps of life and the myth of freedom”.

    One can only judge Tibetan Lamaism’s beliefs by their actions and what they say makes perfect sense when I observe the outcome; they “liberate”/take “the traps of life”/worldly goods and possessions away from those who want to live a Buddhist existence and also “liberate”/take away freedom thus creating and bringing into reality the “myth” that there is no freedom, that total servitude is the way to achieving Buddhahood. I’m not surprised they think westerners and western societies are to be laughed at and ridiculed.

    I would say that Tibetan Buddhism does not work because westerners have woken up to the lies and deception. Self-proclaimed Lamas/gurus are knowingly deceptive. They choose to remain without conscience otherwise they would not be able to do what they do. Like the Irish ‘guru’ thief Tony Quinn they think their greatest achievement is conning people and getting rich. Once the bait is swallowed bit is almost impossible to get free from their hook.

    Let the message of Tibetan Lamaism deception spread further and wider into the world than they have. They are like snakes in a pit that needs to be covered.

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  211. So let me assume, ecumenicalbuddhist, even after your attacks on Christianity and me and all Chinese speaking cultures as pro-communists that you can come back to the topics at hand and come out of your emotionally reactive states:

    What do you think about Dan Goleman’s enabling of sexual abuse inside his Sogyal sangha,? let’s give you one more chance, see if you can tear yourself away from me, and coming on with spit balls at me constantly, Do you think he has broken his oath to ‘report abuse’ and certainly that must include not enabling and promoting as he does, Sogyal, ‘his masters’ sexual expoitations? What do you think , as a former psychologist about that? Does that concern you at all?

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  212. No, what you do is come on here ‘spitting and spewing out hatred toward everything you have no control over, and what you do have any control or say in, you ignore, i.e. the sexual abuse enabling by one of our ‘esteemed colleagues’ of the psychology professon, who is a fanatic lama lover, and slave to his Sogyal, number 1 sexual exploiter of 100’s of women inside his sangha. A cult believer who is promoting and enabling sexual abuse, and breaking his oath to report and do and enable no harm, and yet, although you find all ‘religions’ reprehensible and particularly Christianity, as you do all religious fanatics, you say, and instead of this behavior of one of your ‘esteemed colleagues’ and focusing on that, and doing something about that you would rather come on here, and lock step with Joanne and all the other ‘unattached buddhists’ who think they have realized some equaniminity and distance from their decades of meditation practice, but all they have accomplished is to develop an inability to be concerned about the things they should be concerned with and staying in an “emotional knee jerk intelligence” reactive state instead . I am used to ‘buddhists’ who just can’t let go of the fact that I am criticizing any form of buddhism” and particularly Lamaism, and can’t bear it, whatever they say, that I have criticized psychologists, Irealize this ‘enrages’ all the buddhists and psychologists, both the ‘nice police’ except when it comes to themselves .. you are not interested in the topics, or the threads, or the sexual abuse, or how egregious THAT is , or Dan Goleman’s behavior, you are more upset about me, and what I say. Go back and read the thread’s beginning, YOU accused me of being ‘virulent’ and ‘sensational’ remember? That’s how our interaction started and your ad homenim attacks on me. You were not concerned about what I was saying only that I was critical of psychologists, of which you, who are clearly so still identified with your “social selves” can’t even for a minute concentrate on what we are saying,and I find it so demonstrative of what exactly I am talking about, i.e. these knee jerk reactions from all these educational and professionals and ‘equanimity buddhists, who go on the attack at the slightest criticism of their own pet attachments. The new professional groups that will be ‘helping the rest of us” achieve a more balanced life. Why don’t you go away, you aren’t adding anything to these posts and are only engaged in personal comments to people and DI now. What are you adding in the last week that is objective or adds to any of these discussions ? Or can’t you notice you are engaged in ‘ha has” and “I got you there” or ‘Oh back to Christianity” I knew it” and all these pathetic , childish comments?

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  213. HaHa chris…here we go again. moved for educational purposes to https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/commenting-policy

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  214. Something more practical, not philosophical, stuff about Tantric couple copulation within TB:

    “When the completion stage practices have been mastered and we have gained CONTROL OVER OUR SUBTLE ENERGY WINDS – no one in the west is able to understand that without have beeing practising it – and so forth, there will come a time when the dakas and dakinis will come. What are the dakas and dakinis? Simple speaking, the are males and females, real people, who possess advanced experiences of tantric transformation and control and are therefore able to increase the blissful wisdom of a highly qualified practitioner. !!!

    – That means at this states one attracts men or women like Dakas and Dakinis by “Karma” or the guru connects them for advanced rituals. –

    There is a certain point in the mastery of the completion stage when PHYSISICALLY EMBRACING such a CONSORT is NECESSARY for bringing all the pervading energy winds into the CENTRAL CHANNEL, a prerequisite for OPENING the HEART CENTER completely and experiencing the profoundest level of CLEAR LIGHT.”

    Introduction to Tantra by Lama Yeshe

    Clear words, nothing about self and non-self, which are not necessarily have to be understood in our context.

    Annother quote ´by the DL:

    In his book The Dalai at Harvard, the Dalai Lama stated the following,

    “When we experience subtler level of minds, this level of consciousness can then be transformed into wisdom that understand is emptiness, selflessness.In order to do this, first the practitioner has to stop the grosser levels of consciousness,and to do this, it is necessary to bring about the change of the movement of the white and red basic constituents. This is where sex becomes involved. The strongest change in the level of consciousness that can be utilized by a practitioner occurs during sex. Because of this fact, SEX is used as a TECHNIQUE of TANTRIC PATH.”

    A complete confession of tantric techniques.

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  215. That’s what the Dan Goleman’s in the psychology profession can count on now, his breaking his oaths to report harm, will be enabled by the whole profession now. Wonderful. Real progress in the humanities in western culture.

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  216. Go back to your ivory tower ecumenical and join the other enablers that think sexual abuse of female victims is just fine and nothing to get worked up about, You are just more of the ‘impossible to reach’ no matter what anyone says. If people were yelling fire in a building , you would accuse them of being too virulent. Go back and re-read your virulent posts about Christianty.

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  217. Stephen Batchelor still equivocates , because as he knows full well, being a translator of the Dalai Lama and a former Tibetan Gelugpa monk, he surely knows the Kalachakra Tantra and its specific ‘elevation of sex with females ‘ the best being a female of an ‘outcast ‘ birth of 11 years old ” He also must know that TB Tantra allows moral ethics to be turned on its head, even killing your enemy, , he neglects to add this to his numbered reasons, i.e. the institutionalization of the exploitation of females in Tantric Sex, and that it is a patriarchal, misogynistic religion,by its very canon. Zen Buddhism is of course also , feudal, and misogynistic and patriarchal, but within its canon, there is not ‘tantra after tantra’ elevating sexual use of the females sexual energies for ‘enlightenment.

    His whole article her, lets them off the hook for their ‘institutionalized and elevated to the highest level’ tantra sexual practices” and suggests again the ‘exceptional rule’ Oh it’s just a few monks behaving badly. Baloney.

    I was told in an audience of Tantrikas in the 90s that people COULD NOT REACH ENLIGHTENMENT unless they were still sexually active, by a high Lama visiting from Tibet. So why would he have said this? If this wasn’t the whole pinnacle and goal of Tibetan Lamaism and its practices. He didn’t give the usual baloney talks on visualization, visualization with a consort was a facsmile practice.

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  218. Well, as soon as I had mentioned the chinese regime moved to commenting policy.

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  219. correction” “what Leo Wieseltier doesn’t know’

    i.e. he doesn’t know this is being promoted by Dan Goleman, Mr. ‘ignore his professional oath to report abuse ‘ and instead enable it because of his guru yoga tantric vows to see ‘Sogyal as perfect no matter what he does” and the Dalai Lama and , this Chinese colluding ‘mindfulness’ program, brought to you by the Mind Life Insitute of the Dalai Lama that China supposedly hates, and the DAlai Lama supposedly hates China (Don’t westerners understand THEATRE for poltical reason) brings this into business, schools, higher institutes of learning, universities and soon western grammar schools ! In otheer worlds, a sexually abusing cult of Lamaism promoting ‘mindfulness training’ and ’emotional intelligence’ (both to undermine critical thinking and reasoning) in infiltrating into every cultural institution in the west, while you and all the so-called very astute psychologists and meditators and TB fanatics, are busy, trying to destroy and demean anyone trying to warn people about what is actually happening ‘on the ground” and all around us, and warn people , like Tara Carreon , in her article (she also addresses the sexual abuses of the Lamas elsewhere) from our decades long experience inside this cult of Lamaism , and what it ‘really does in the long run” to people’s critical thinking and worse, and that . for some reason, we were able to snap completely out of it, and its massive thought control that instead of promoting a more balanced person, creates an army of a critical mass of people, with knee jerk , emotional judgemental attitudes, while believing that they are non-judgemental , but only non-judgemental about the things they should be ‘judging” i.e. egregious things like sexual abuse by these Lamas, and their financial abuses, while accusing us those who do ‘judge this’ of being racist and virulent and worse. … Perhaps this is the real meaning of the ’emotional intelligence’ that Dan is pushing for everyone: a knee jerk emotionalism with no discriminating intelligence left. That must be the goal since almost every TB Lamaism I know, most western professionals and academics, influenced over the years by his rhetoric, whatever their proclivities to begin with, taking DL and our controlled media, demonstrates that mind-set.

    What a joke on us if, after years of Chinese bashing and ” Dalai Lama loving”, the Tibetan Lamaists and China will have destroyed all vestiges of western democracy, and will complete their colonization of the west, thanks to our amazing proclivities to have enabled this sexually abusive thought control cult of Lamaism to infiltrate and slither in through their deceptions, into all aspects of our culture, . And the sexually abusive cult that is behind all this, will have a complete carte blanche to continue on, because all the so -called educators and professionals had been the ones massively duped by this and made sure to ‘facilitate it happening.” Too busy threatening ‘libel’ if someone was ‘critical of this’ but allowing massive sexual abuse and the undermining of our western culture to go, unnoticed , right under their ‘professional noses”. It will be a really chapter in our future history books, unless China with the Lamas are writing them.

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  220. ecumenical buddhist
    If you continue on this off topic nonsense we will just put you in the commenting section.

    Carreron didn’t thinkmuch of the chinese regime either

    what relevance does this have when dealing with Taiwan!

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  221. Here’s the article again and Chinese Google promoting ‘Emotional Intelligence (Dan Goleman fanatic slave of master Sogyal) and ‘mindfulness, of the Dalai Lama’s Mindfulness Institution.
    Moved to https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion

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  222. Buddhism and Sex: The Bigger Picture by Stephen Batchelor
    was brought to my attention:
    http://sweepingzen.com/buddhism-and-sex-the-bigger-picture/

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  223. I have always believe the Dalai Lama is pro-China, in fact, and is a double agent. Its just part of his ‘double talk’ to say he is ‘anti-Chinese and to get us to hate China while China takes us over . The wealthy biillionaires in China are probably really running that country, like they are everywhere now.

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  224. Here’s DAn , promoter and enabler of Sogyal’s abuses, Moved to https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion

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  225. Go back and read the posts about Google, which is a Chinese Company now, like so many of our corporations, Ecumenical. Moved to https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion

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  226. Or I have Chinese communist, leanings because I said that the Chinese brought secular education to Tibet, , hospitals, doubled the Tibetans live span, and decrease the infant mortality rate ten-fold.

    Pleeeze….

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  227. Only TB Buddhists have a need ot pigeon hole people , as the 7 months of postings here shows

    . Didn’t you call me a Christian, because I wasn’t virulently anti-Christian like yourself?

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  228. Carreron didn’t thinkmuch of the chinese regime either, if you’ve read that article….does that mean she needs to be slagged off too or pigeonholed into some box like non dualism (whatever that is…)

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  229. “… all these Buddhist teachers or ‘atheist’ buddhist teachers, have a ‘teaching venue’ to protect, and will never say what they ‘really think’ except to say TB is ‘mumbo jumbo.’ They don’t want to be unmercifully attacked by the TB Lamaists, but it makes their ability to really ‘tell it like it is’ from their experience, limited.”

    Right, Chris, I totally agree.

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  230. I would just take what Carreon is saying and go further with it in deconstructing DL and all Lamaism as a” cult of thought control”. I am sure she would understand this view (this article is a bit dated , and although saying she has no respecit for the Dalai Lama she is still quoting him, not yet , at that time, realizing the depth of Lamas use of deception and ‘doublespeak’ to paralyse and confuse and keep their student slaves enthralled, and their public fooled.

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  231. Marte:

    Thanks for posting Carreon’s article above on her experience with TB and coming out from the ‘rabbit hole’ , I agree with everything she says, and it is a brilliant answer to the whole issue of Tulkuism, Tibetan Lamaism, and what we have been discussing here in one article.

    She has expanded it I see , since she first posted it and I am putting it on here again so it doesn’t get lost in the shuffle:

    . http://www.iivs.de/~iivs01311/EN/deba05.html

    These Lamas can’t hold a candle to this western woman and her abilty to cut through their mumbo jumbo. She also addresses why Stephen Batchelor will ultimately never be any ultimate help either,in ending Tulkuism, all these Buddhist teachers or ‘atheist’ buddhist teachers, have a ‘teaching venue’ to protect, and will never say what they ‘really think’ except to say TB is ‘mumbo jumbo.’ They don’t want to be unmercifully attacked by the TB Lamaists, but it makes their ability to really ‘tell it like it is’ from their experience, limited.

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  232. His talk above , also exhibits the usual ‘doubletalk’ of the Lamas, on the one hand he admits the corruption, but then says ‘don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater, i.e. Lamaism.

    These Lamas just can’t talk straight about anything, and will always do whatever it takes to preserve themselves and their corrupt and exploitative system. It cannot be ‘reformed’ from within, because ‘within’ it , they are the Gods and Slavemasters and that will never change. The whole set-up is this paradigm, and always has been.

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  233. Dzongsar R’s answer to Tara Carreon in 2003, where he exposes the corruption of Lamaism himself, likens them to Fundamentalist Imams, Now he is back in the fundamentalist Tulku fold himself again like all true Lamaists, they just can’t give up the fantasies , him the perks, and the devotees their slavery to the Lamas. He of course steers clear of the main corruption , the sexual abuses of the Lamas , but does discuss the financial abuses and their ‘fundamentalisms”. But still, of course wishes to preserve Tulkuhood and their Lama privileges which he says he won’t and can’t give up in this talk:

    http://gomde-dk-sangha.blogspot.com/2009/06/east-west-west-east-by-dzongsar.html

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  234. Isn´t DL more and more looking like a gander, isn´t he?

    Interesting reflections of Tara Carreon:

    http://www.iivs.de/~iivs01311/EN/deba05.html

    Could be also moved to Lamaism discussion.

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  235. We have no problem with this discussion but we will be moving it asap to Lamaism discussion. So please use that thread from here on in, otherwise it will be moved.

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  236. Yes that right Chris. They want there cake and eat it too.
    sankappa’s important points moved to: https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion

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  237. Thank you for your words of support Buddhism.
    sankappa’s important points moved to: https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion

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  238. To make it simple this is an argument about “anatman” and is a religious discussion.

    Hence it is moved here https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion

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  239. Thumbs up to both Sankappa and Beluga424!
    Nowadays not many people know about the Four Agamas anymore.

    Beluga424’s remarks are brilliant as well.
    DI posts are pointing in the right direction.
    Good for DI!

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  240. Sounds like a rebrand is required. Non Ecumenical Non Buddhist with general visceral hatred of all things religious. Would Non Dualist be better?

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  241. Haha DI, you mistake a colloquialism for a euphemism.
    I know nothing at all about contemplating tantra, never practised it in my life.
    Perhaps my bias now leads me to think that all peoples and organisations with christian undertones are better at believing fairy tales than honesty?
    As I said before, from christianity to zoroastrianism, i find it all rubbish. maybe there’d be nothing to nit pick and argue about while the planet under our feet dissolves if humans moved on from all that bronze age stuff.
    Still enjoying all this though. I can look when I want instead of having my inbox polluted with it all.

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  242. Thanks Joanne very much for your clear explanation of Hindu vs. Buddhist tantric practice. ……………..
    discussion on the issues connected to Buddhist philosophy moved to:
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion

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  243. Joanne, on January 8, 2014 at 12:26 pm said:
    If you listened to HH Dalai Lama, you would also hear him describe the proper practice of tantric union and its place in the overall structure of Buddhist practice.

    “Buddhist practice” Joanne? Tantric union never has been and never will be “Buddhist practice”. You’ve been so indoctrinated that you just regurgitate this rubbish without thinking where it has come from. Please point out in the Pali Nikayas or Chinese Agamas the tantric union that the Buddha refers to. As has been pointed out ad nauseum, this practice is derived from Hindu Tantra. What don’t you get about this?!

    Tibetan Buddhism = Lamaism = Brahmanism re-badged

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  244. Glad you survived enjoy your time with Joanne. Obviously your reference to sking was mental?

    No doubt you’ll all start screaming again and more insults will fly, but now I think I’ve answered your questions and I feel vindicated, i’m definitely

    offski.

    Thought you were going skiing and now you ruined my dream of you soaring in the alps as you contemplated Tantra

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  245. Joanne, I am not skiing anywhere! I just said I was getting on a plane.

    This is an example of DI jumping to conclusions as many here do….or maybe DI was hoping I’d meet with a skiing accident to keep me quiet…?

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  246. beluga424, you said,

    “You said in an earlier post that Chris doesn’t understand the difference between the tantric practice of Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism. Would you kindly explain the difference between the two?”

    I am no expert on this, but I have read some texts and here is what I understand. Please excuse me if I make errors.

    First, the primary difference between Hindu and Buddhist tantric practice is the philosophical bases on which each of those religions rely.

    Hindu practitioners adhere to a creator god and an inherent, independent self (soul/atma). So their tantric practices will incorporate those beliefs.

    On the other hand, Buddhist practitioners adhere to the view of interdependence and no-self (e.g. emptiness). All Buddhist tantric practice incorporates that view, as well as the perspective of bodhicitta and great compassion, which is the desire to achieve enlightenment to alleviate the suffering of all beings. Those two– the conduct of non-harming and the view of interdependence/emptiness form the base for all Buddhist tantric practice. This is quite distinct from Hindu practice.

    How Buddhist tantric practice works and how, for example, sexual union is employed as part of this practice, is far beyond the level of these discussions. If there isn’t even a basic understanding of the Buddhist path in general, there can be no hope of understanding Buddhist tantra, which is a high, esoteric practice. So the discussion here becomes simply a venue for venting about lamas who use tantra to misbehave. And that is silly.

    As for Stephen Batchelor, I’m afraid I missed that comment of yours and know nothing of his current views. I try to stay clear of the gossip and simply study and practice Tibetan Buddhism.

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  247. Dont’ bother anymore Angie, she has been massively programmed to not watch it.

    Like

  248. Chris I noted you have reached the same conclusion as I was writing!

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  249. Dalai Lama , honored by the Hindus, (of course, he is one of them) and teaching them to use the ‘secular’ mask, while telling them to preserve their Hindu Guru worshipping ‘religions’ moved to:
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion

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  250. Joanne, what is your opinion of the video? Just scroll up to the post and you will find it.

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  251. Dear Joanne,

    You said in an earlier post that Chris doesn’t understand the difference between the tantric practice of Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism. Would you kindly explain the difference between the two?

    I brought up Stephen Batchelor’s renunciation of Tibetan Buddhism in an earlier post for the reason that Batchelor is learned in both TB doctrines and the Tibetan language, as evidenced in his ability to translate under Geshe Ngawang Dhargyey’s Shantideva’s A Guide to the Bodhisattva’s Way of Life. Batchelor gave up TB primarily for the logical fallacy he saw in the doctrine.

    How would you address Batchelor’s questions? Thanks in advance for taking the time to help me understand your perspective.

    DI Moderation:

    As the question still maintains the direction of this post we have kept it here and also moved it to the Lamaism discussion.

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  252. Why do you lie?

    Chris and Angie it appears that we have reached the point of no return with Joanne. You might have noticed I took about an hour to reply to her in a detailed comment. She has ignored that and always tries to bypass reason into what I would call an escape from reason. I have taken the view that she can’t actually engage in a sequential debate, where she answers points in a rational manner, we are by replying merely, feeding her insatiable mental collapse. This is not a psychiatric condition but one of influence.
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/about/cultism/
    All she is able to do is to copy and paste and call people liars. I leave you to do what you have to do, but I personally will not invest any further time on a person who is incapable of replying to a clear correspondence.
    We note that she still has not given an actual refutation of the Lerab (B)Ling video or even addressed the video on this post. Please do not let her take you away from this very important NON Communist,Taiwanese, non aggressor video. Stay focused on her reply to that and do not indulge her Troll like distancing.

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  253. I am not engaging with you anymore Joanne, you have demonstrated your complete and utter lack of being reached or to have a reasonable dialogue with, but you are not alone, just an extreme example.

    . I do suggest that in the event you ever come out of this ‘thought control ‘ by Lamas and DL, that you have an ‘exit counselor’ lined up, because the cognitive dissonance and shame that you might feel , for being so ‘duped’ and for so publically revealing this ‘dupedom’ , well it is a good thing that you have remained ‘anonymous”. That will help in the longrun.

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  254. Chris, you said,

    “I hope people, thanks to your example, can see how very dangerous they are , how they can create ‘millions of Manchurian candidates, if one multipled the ‘enthrallment’ you demonstrate, and generalize it to masses of people whose critical thinking they are determined to destroy by stealth. And without each person they enthrall, being aware that this has happened to them.

    “Like a broken record the pod devotees just repeat everywhere , “‘the lamas are perfect, the lamas are perfect’ ” the Dalai Lama is god” ” Lamas are perfect” Lamas are perfect” no matter what they do in the name of Lamaism, “the Lamas are all perfect.” But of course, that is their main thought control ‘meme’ in the Vajrayana tantra, it is the ‘essence’ of their religion.”

    Could you please point to any comment in which I demonstrated such a point of view?

    For the record, here is my point of view: I respect and admire some lamas. I don’t respect and admire some lamas. I don’t know about other lamas and so I withhold judgment.

    Why do you lie?

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  255. “Lamas who abuse tantric union are simply doing that– abusing a religious practice.”

    No Joanne, the Lamas , like Sogyal , are considered perfect models of ‘practicing’ the Tantric Union, by having 100’s of females they misuse misogynistically for their Tantric Union ‘religion’.

    That is why every single high Lama,without exception, of all the sects, Gelugpa, Nyingma, Kagyu, and Sakya, all came and ‘honored ‘ Sogyal in 2011 ( and honored the ultimate passive female, the sexually abused Dakini Khandro, who was so addled in the film , she probably wondered what was happening, since they never honor females with such aplomb and ceremony).

    And they continue to ‘honor Sogyal, by , bowing low to him now , as a blatant gesture of respect, for all to see, except you and the other devotees of Lamaism, , who still believes that people could ‘call him out’ as the Dalai Lama admonishes his audiences, as he has been doing since 1995, when Sogyal’s abuses reached the public awareness, and DL keeps pretending that this could happen, as do all the slave devotees, while all the celebrity Lamas are doing the opposite before the devotees very eyes.

    This is one of their most blatant examples of ‘doublespeak’ and ‘doubleact’ ,to purposely confuse and thought control all their devotees. “Do as I do, not as I say”, is the Dalai Lama’s trickery and all the other Lamas give the same message to preserve their ‘precious’ cult of sexual abuse , not a’religion” but a con game, and a grift that has been operating for over a thousand years to turn people’s minds to mush.

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  256. Joanne, I understand that you always try to get the last word of your lock-step “thought controlled Lama memes” that you have been totally ‘programmed’ to do, by your involvement with Lamaism.

    You have provided a ‘blog document’ of what they can do to seemingly “educated minds” and you have been very helpful in demostrating how, once in the Lama’s mind-controlled ‘grip, ‘ it becomes hopeless to have any reasonable conversations with any Lamaist anywhere. They are ‘pod people’ who are lost to Lamaism.

    I hope people, thanks to your example, can see how very dangerous they are , how they can create ‘millions of Manchurian candidates, if one multipled the ‘enthrallment’ you demonstrate, and generalize it to masses of people whose critical thinking they are determined to destroy by stealth. And without each person they enthrall, being aware that this has happened to them.

    Like a broken record the pod devotees just repeat everywhere , ‘the lamas are perfect, the lamas are perfect’ ” the Dalai Lama is god” ” Lamas are perfect” Lamas are perfect” no matter what they do in the name of Lamaism, “the Lamas are all perfect.” But of course, that is their main thought control ‘meme’ in the Vajrayana tantra, it is the ‘essence’ of their religion.

    Your good fortune, is that you are not in Tibet as one of his mental slaves, or you might have ‘burned yourself up’ for your Kundun.

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  257. Joanne comments: “Angie too is a great fan of Chinese websites and quotes them shamelessly.” What you are implying is ridiculous. It is so far from the truth. I do not scroll through Chinese websites at all, period. You need to focus on the subject matter rather than attacking people who have a genuine concern about abuse in Lamaism or the Educo cult or any other cult for that matter. I am intelligent enough to see that doublespeak permeates the lama system and I welcome information that is factual. Have you watched the video yet Joanne?

    So many times Chris has been clear about her stance on Christianity, I would have expected any reader of her comments, at this stage, to understand where she is coming from.

    You say “I myself have had to evolve from my own Shangri La version of Tibetan history and culture.” Now, isn’t it a pity you were fooled into believing the Tibetan Lama driven fairytale in the first place? Have a look at the video Joanna and listen to what is coming from a genuine Buddhist perspective. Lamaism is not Buddhism. The Taiwanese have no axe to grind, simply taking steps to protect women in their society from being sexually abused due to infiltration of Tibetan Lama Hindu tantric beliefs.

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  258. Chris, you say, “Tibetan Lamaism is NOT buddhism, and is a tantric Hindu guru worshipping cult of sexually abusing Lamas…”

    This is simply wrong. Wrong. This comes from your complete ignorance or Tibetan Buddhism. You have read no texts on tantric practice within Tibetan Buddhism and even if you did read a text, you would not understand it because you have no understanding of Buddhism itself! You are reacting to a few instances of misbehavior and calling it the norm. That’s just narrow-minded and childish.

    Lamas who abuse tantric union are simply doing that– abusing a religious practice. And yes, I agree– that is wrong and it is a problem. If you listened to teachings by HH Dalai Lama, you would hear him talk about these problems. However, problems do not make the religious practice an abusive one. If you listened to HH Dalai Lama, you would also hear him describe the proper practice of tantric union and its place in the overall structure of Buddhist practice.

    Further, there are clear distinctions between Buddhist tantric practice and Hindu tantric practice– your statements in that regard are based on complete ignorance.

    I refer to Communist Chinese frequently because the behavior exhibited here is very much in line with what I have seen of Communist Chinese propaganda. They don’t care if what they are saying is a complete, horrible, stupid lie; they simply say it loudly and repeatedly and make it true. This is exactly the approach being taken here, again and again and again. It’s childish and wrong.

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  259. Joanne, on January 7, 2014 at 6:12 pm said:

    … communist Chinese …

    There is that terminology again Joanne. You keep using it. It’s like you are locked back in 1950’s McCarthyist America. As DI said it’s all “reds under the beds” to you. You assert you are a liberal leaning American but your language gives you away, every time.

    I find the only people who still attach the prefix “communist” when referring to the Chinese are ignorant, indoctrinated Americans.

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  260. Joanne I was in a movie so had to hold off making long comments as I only had my phone with me.
    Now this is what you wrote:

    By the way, Ecumenical Buddhist, most of Chris’s sources have communist Chinese origins.

    Could you produce evidence to back up this claim?
    EB is as I told you gone missing so we will not comment on her position. All I can say is that she came on all guns blazing and had to admit she had not even watched the video. Now she has she agrees with its conclusions, so do not look to her to be your ally.
    In fact I have a feeling that you you hold a degree you seem to not be able to distinguish between the ROC and the PRC. I think you have preset button which makes you react to any mention of China. It is all reds under the beds.
    Please read this link to educate yourself on Chinese History. By the way the group we have the video from are very careful to not enter into the political dispute between the two Chinese Republics.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan

    Angie too is a great fan of Chinese websites and quotes them shamelessly.

    Again could you give our readers evidence of this? The last time I went into a library I was not aware that because you quote from Mein Kamf you are a Nazi?

    The Shugden Society is in the payroll of communist Chinese.

    Note the jump in logic which follows;

    Chris’s philosophical views are closely aligned with theirs.

    Again in logic you seem to assert assumptions and give no evidence for the case you are making.
    I ask you to show by reference the case you are making? You insinuate views and do not back them up.
    You are clearly being defamatory. No one says you are not allowed to hold different views from Chris, but you continually misrepresent what she says. What is notable is that you regard contrary views as defamatory and racist.

    She has made comments that defend the Chinese invasion of Tibet and that criticize Tibetans for objecting to that.

    You continually misrepresent her position. What I hear her saying is that that the official history is not quite as you suggest. She claims and has given documentary evidence that Tibet was kept in feudal state by the Lamas and that the entrance of the Chinese is bringing education to the people there and better conditions for all of the people rather than for a small minority. This does not mean she supports the abuses of the Tibetans or breaches of human rights. No she does not have a problem with Tibetans not wishing to have the Chinese as colonial lords, but overall she believes conditions are better for most of the Tibetans. That is where you should respond not accuse her of being anti Tibetan. She believes you are an enabler of Lamaism and the feudal control of the people.

    In addition, Chris will not include any mention of the NKT or Geshe Kelsang Gyatso in her rants about lama misbehaviors. She will not mention Geshe Kelsang in the context of Tibetan Buddhist cultism, despite the fact that he engages in more cultish activities than any other TB lama. Now, he is a lama who restricts free thought! But Chris has a loud silence in regard to him.

    You continue to revert to your template and Tenpel nonsense that Chris supports the NKT. When she has answered on numerous occasions you have ignored that. This shows you are incapable of rational dialogue. Also the very first Buddhist adviser on this site was the victim of NKT attacks. We fully understand their threat but we see them as just another variant of the Lamaist TB disease.
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/category/buddhist/new-kadampa-tradition-nkt/
    Those we are assisting on this site do not find your assertions very helpful in dealing with this group.

    In fact, she will not speak of where her current loyalties lie.

    What planet are you on Joanne. She is a Buddhist who regards the Buddha’s teaching as being A-theist.
    After 30 years of programming she is on a journey, and like Mandela she is still in the anger stage after being for 30 years in a Lamaist prison.

    Christian? Maybe.

    If you were not filled with such hatred because Chris is a heretic who has left the true faith, you will see that she is not a Christian, but has come to realise that under the guise of Ecumenicism HHDL his holiness Pope!!! is a bigot and anti Christian in the extreme. She comes from a Christian background and can now see good points like education, hospitals, charitable relief of poverty and the values which entered into our western civilisation as precious. Hence her denunciation of the loss of critical thinking and the values of representative democracy. Nothing too radical but you can’t stand to hear this stuff as you are a bigot.

    That silence is also loud.

    Are you for real Joanne she is not silent at all, just read her posts and comments.

    She bears the marks of a cult follower herself, with an all-or-nothing brush painting the TB culture as all black, all evil, all wrong.

    As someone who has come out of slavery she has to see it in black and white. You can see that philosophically you can’t cope with the principle of antithesis. A is not non A. You have imbibed this relativistic position of not being able to deal with absolutes. This sentence actually sums you up…and more…Ecept you are absolutely inconsistent in calling all of chris’s ideas as absolutely wrong, note the irony!

    Instead of addressing the very real problems that exist within TB culture, she ascribes to a childish formula: TB=Lamaism.

    She rejects your attempt to reduce this to a cultural issue. She does not buy this thesis. It was exactly why you could not really deal with Sogyal as you wanted to reform a culture of instead of seeing a corrupt Religion. So when we would not indulge your doctrinal conclusions you threw your rattle out of the pram. Because you reject her formula you regard it as childish, but those of us who have experienced a Eureka moment now see why those guys on thrones can’t be touched. I also now know why you are not up to the job to get at Sogyal. Note how Mary quite contrary Finnigan has also gone missing. I met her in 1997 and she is still dribbling out this reform nonsense. Talk to the press and she could not talk to herself as part of the press.

    The only problem is that she demonstrates very little understanding of what Tibetan Buddhism or even Indian Buddhism is to begin with!

    She is able to make it very clear for me as a non Buddhist. What she has shown is it is not Buddhism at all in agreement with our Taiwanese friends. Also the influence was not Indian Buddhism but Hinduism. You just do not get it do you!

    Her understanding of tantra is abysmal!

    This is the best one yet. In the middle of an afternoon when you were asked had you watched the video, (5 times at least?) you release the above. Joanne please do not make us cry with laughter!
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2014/01/03/tantric-couple-copulation-lamaism-is-not-buddhism/

    One of the few times she attempted to quote “from the Buddha” was: “The truth shall set you free.” Doesn’t that come from the bible?

    Could I ask you did the Buddha have a similar quotation?

    The childish formula used here runs something like this: Some Tibetan Buddhist lamas misbehave. Therefore, TB=Lamaism. It’s inane. Life is much much more complicated and nuanced I’m afraid. No one culture is all bad or all good.

    No this not about your culture construct. The religion which is unreformed Hinduism has given a virus to TB and that is Lamaism. The whole Lama game from the DL down is infected with this TB virus.THis HAS NOTHING to do with culture but with religion. Religion creates the culture and then they intersect. It is then exported to the West and is having a dreadful effect on our culture.

    I myself have had to evolve from my own Shangri La version of Tibetan history and culture. However, to react from my troubled relations with lamas by running to the other extreme would have been just silly. I would have missed out on the very real treasure of the Tibetan Buddhist religious tradition– I would have been the loser.

    Tell us about your Shangrila version as it seems to be you are still in that space?
    WE do not regard it as a treasure but the prostitution of the very essence of Buddhism.
    I have no opinion about it as a religion but I see what it has done to the victims.

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  261. Tibetan Buddhism = Brahmanism re-badged

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  262. Influences all the new age cults in the west. Correction.

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  263. .
    Karma , the real meaning is ’causes and conditions’ coming together, ( these Lamas are one of the sufficient and necessary” conditions, to create the “karma” we have had for almost 40 years,now since they have been in the west.

    “Impermanence’ however means we can change that in the west , if we can wake up from the ‘poppy fields’ they have been putting us in. HIndu/Lamaism, influences all the other cults in the west. Tantra , when it came to Tibet, with its misogyny and sexual abuse and ‘fragmenting” of the Tibetan culture, (the Tibetans themselves call it the “Time of Fragmentation” ) it’s civilization was destroyed when Padmasambhava , the Indian, Tantric socceror, made Tibetan Tantra spread far and wide, with the help of the Lamas.

    So that’s why some of us feel a sense of urgency, like the Tawainese in this film who are willing to be seen and heard to protect their country and their citizens.

    It is so pathetic, that so few of us are doing that in the U.S. but of course we could be more easily fooled by what was , and what was not ‘Buddhism” What did most of us know?

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  264. that is what is so really deceptive of the Dalai lama, he is calling his new mask “Secular Ethics” and pushing this in the Mind Life Institute, that cover for Lamaism’s spread.

    This is a Religious Cult of Sexual Abuse, it is not Secular and it is not Ethical, the Vajrayana allows the Lamas to turn ‘ethics on its head” , that is what they don’t want you to know, that is how really evil they are, and why they always destroy the minds and spirit of people. These pictures of Tibetans now, are Tibetans in Exile, that had to look to Chinese Tibetans to see how it looked to look ‘clean and uplifted” They didn’t have soap. They couldn’t wash on those high elevated plains, it was better for them have ‘layers of dirt ‘ on their skins, to protect them from the intense sun, at that high altitude , that would have burned their skin off, if it didn’t have to go through so many layers of dirt. That is not a put-down that is a fact. The Chinese Tibetans were like a fashion magazine for how good they could look, just by washing up and putting on clean clothes, If you look at old film of Tibet , in the 40’s and 50’s the ordinary Tibetans are ragged, and impoverished, the only ones that looked uplifted and with a modicum of presence are the Tibetan aristocracy, who were living off everyone else. This is NOT rocket science, but it does require ALL of us waking up from the New Age, medival, Hindu/Lama memes we have been being programmed with in the west. Destroying the family, is good for keeping limited resources in the hands of a plutocracy. As it did in Tibet.

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  265. When I was still in the cult of Lamaism, there was a friend I had whose husband, highly promiscuous, and cheating on her all the time, such that she was on ‘medication’ and made to feel and convinced herself that “she was the crazy one”, he decided (he was a Columbia University professor) to experiement with the ‘ideal partner” of 10 years old, and , since he was an intellectual ‘buddhist’ and I am sure that he read about the ‘real sexual couple bliss sex in tantra, which also justified his many partners, decided , also a Tibetan Lamaist, to ‘sleep with this girl” this was a huge scandal in the Western Tibetan Sangha of N.Y. but was covered up and the wife of this sexually abusing man, ‘settled the case’ for about 1/2 million, a lot of money in the 80’s. I remained friends with her, until I left the cult 100%, but never trusted him, he was lascivious with every woman , from 20 to 60 years old, he was not a pedophile, His wife and he are still in the cult of Lamaism, and he became a ‘highly respected teacher’ in Tibetan lamaism and continued to teach , but lost his job at Columbia, because of the scandal, even though covered up , the rumors flew.

    I look back now and realize , of course, that he was doing what came naturally to him, out of his curiosity about Tibetan Lamaism, and what he read about in the Tibetan lamaist texts, and as a scholar of Tibetan Buddhism, (that young girl became a wife of an old Zen lecher, but high teacher of Archery, in Zen Buddhism. There was about 50 years difference in their age, a common thing for women to partner up with older men, later, who have been sexually abused by old men as their ‘first partner” ). The Columbian professor who abused her, and it was settled and covered up and whitewash in this sangha, was abot 60 years old when she was 10 years old. He teaches now at a college in Vt, known for its permissiveness and probably didn’t know about his proclivities with women. He is still a lecher now approaching 80 years old. Probably still torturing his wife with his proclivities,. Sexual promiscuous and non monogamy is actively encouraged in many of these Tibetan Lamaist sanghas. It destroys the moral basis of western cultures. There is now in these Tibetan lamaist sanghas, the ones that think they are really ‘hip’ a thing called ‘oneitis” that sees monagomous relations, (let alone marriage) as a neurotic attachment, and that is starting to spread among college students and young adults. This Lamaism does and will break up families. Many of the people I knew over the years had multiple partners, and multiple marriages some of them five or more marriages.

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  266. Have you watched the film documentary by the nonChinese, non Communist, not NKT, non Christian, Tawainese, who are basically saying what I have been saying for the last 7 months on DI: that Tibetan Lamaism is NOT buddhism, and is a tantric Hindu guru worshipping cult of sexually abusing Lamas,i.e. Lamaism, and not just a ‘few’ exceptional Lamas, that have never , ever been called out by anyone of the the Lamas, and not the Dalai Lama , who are misbehaving, and that they have researched from their centuries of experience with real Buddhism that Tibetan “Buddhism’ is Lamaism, and has , as as its main tenet’ Couple sex tantra , which I too have been saying and why no one has had any progress in stopping this abuse for over decades in the west, and that Lamas, all of them, are encouraged by the Couple Sex Tantra of Lamaism to seek out many partners, (an outcast girl of 11 years old was the ideal in Tibet) for their ‘bliss realization’ for themselves?

    You still haven’t answered the question Joanne, since you want to paint me with all these diversionary labels, that are so far from who I am, I can’t even answer them one by one, they all add up to ‘ridiculous’.

    So when are you going to watch this film from Buddhists, a thousands of miles away from me, and of whom I had no awareness of even existing, while I formed my own opinions, over the last several years, based on decades of solid experience and research, that you don’t have and don’t do?

    So what about the film Joanne, we are waiting?

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  267. Ecumenical Buddhist is sking somewhere, so are you on thin ice. It is truly remarkable to view how you been cloned into a full blown Lamaist

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  268. By the way, Ecumenical Buddhist, most of Chris’s sources have communist Chinese origins. Angie too is a great fan of Chinese websites and quotes them shamelessly. The Shugden Society is in the payroll of communist Chinese. Chris’s philosophical views are closely aligned with theirs. She has made comments that defend the Chinese invasion of Tibet and that criticize Tibetans for objecting to that.

    In addition, Chris will not include any mention of the NKT or Geshe Kelsang Gyatso in her rants about lama misbehaviors. She will not mention Geshe Kelsang in the context of Tibetan Buddhist cultism, despite the fact that he engages in more cultish activities than any other TB lama. Now, he is a lama who restricts free thought! But Chris has a loud silence in regard to him.

    In fact, she will not speak of where her current loyalties lie. Christian? Maybe. That silence is also loud.

    She bears the marks of a cult follower herself, with an all-or-nothing brush painting the TB culture as all black, all evil, all wrong. Instead of addressing the very real problems that exist within TB culture, she ascribes to a childish formula: TB=Lamaism.

    The only problem is that she demonstrates very little understanding of what Tibetan Buddhism or even Indian Buddhism is to begin with! Her understanding of tantra is abysmal! One of the few times she attempted to quote “from the Buddha” was: “The truth shall set you free.” Doesn’t that come from the bible?

    The childish formula used here runs something like this: Some Tibetan Buddhist lamas misbehave. Therefore, TB=Lamaism. It’s inane. Life is much much more complicated and nuanced I’m afraid. No one culture is all bad or all good.

    I myself have had to evolve from my own Shangri La version of Tibetan history and culture. However, to react from my troubled relations with lamas by running to the other extreme would have been just silly. I would have missed out on the very real treasure of the Tibetan Buddhist religious tradition– I would have been the loser.

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  269. Hindustani

    No we do not wish to confuse the Religion of India with the language of India
    moved to https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion/

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  270. beluga424 Clearly understood the point and if you do not mind I wish you would as well.
    I have made it clear that we need to preserve the integrity of the post and not go off on all kind’s of valid tangents. It diminishes the focus of that post. We will be ruthless in this as we have no way of distinguishing philosophical and other categories from the subject matter. We will be rigid from now on with this policy

    Submitted on 2014/01/06 at 4:31 am | In reply to sankappa.

    Dear sankappa,

    First I want to keep my reply short as this is a thread for Tantric Buddhism
    rather than a forum for Buddha’s teachings.

    I don’t want to get deeper into about what you and I believe is the correct interpretation
    of Buddha’s teaching in this forum as DI has repeatedly told us to not stray from the subject. Would be glad to discuss with you in a forum about Buddhist doctrine.

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  271. Well, DI , you have never wanted me to get into the ‘influences’ that are larger in western society …moved to https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion/

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  272. “Hindustani Brahminism” was a concept I learned from an Indian Buddhist….
    moved to https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion/

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  273. I think you miss my point , DI, I bet the Taiwanese get it completely about using the ‘bodhisattva motivation’ as an excuse in tantra to abuse their disciples. That is the main ‘concept ‘ they use of the mahayana, ( this is not an exoteric nor esoteric discussion of Buddhism, at all) i.e. using “compassion” , and particularly the compassion of a Bodhisattva, to justify their couple sex tantra, and all the other ways they twist the precepts to engage in their abuses and what they are doing. they are doing it ‘out of the compassion of a
    Bodhisattva; that is exactly what they have ‘thought controlled all their western students, with. I wouldn’t persist , but that is directly related to the couples sex tantra that they get away with is directly ‘on point.’

    Maybe it was just too long a post, but it wasn’t ‘off point’ at all.

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  274. This Sharmapa , in my opinion, is trying to break out of the monastic system of Tulkuism, while still retaining the Vajryana Tantra Hindu concepts of ‘reincarnated gurus’ coming back again and again, with the Lamas still the omnicient ‘wise ones” the avatars, and yet , because of some of his training, he feels he can speak to democratic principles, when all he is really doing is trying to preserve Lamaism, but make it more like an India ‘Democracy’, where there will still be these Lamas, like India is still corrupted by Hindu Guruism, but pretends to the world that it is a democracy, because people can vote, but still has a a caste system, because people are religiously mired in superstition and Guruism, and that is what his version of Lamaism would be that is what he would still be envisioning. . (I am sure his slavish devotees, all devotees of Lamas, east and west, are slavish and obsequious to him too, desite his ‘new tulkusim dressed up in democracy” because of the institutional set up and because their system has no idea of equality or democratic principles in reality, and he would be still teaching the same Hindustani Brahmin Tantra guruism, So nothing would change. For example, if I was in an audience with him and his group right now? They and he would be horrifed that I dared to say these things to a Sharmapa! There is no freedom of speech with Lamas.

    He might want to change the system, but still wants to hold onto the priviledged position of the Gurus, because the whole Tantra is based on guru devotion, and so Tantra would have to go, for it to really change and no Lama is going to allow that to happen, their whole reason d’etre is to, hold on to the same system and that makes any real change impossible.

    That is my take on Sharmapa. He has been raised in India and Nepal and Sikkim and has been hanging with the Hindu Gurus i.e. in their culture, since he was recognized by the 16 th Karmapa as a very high Lama, as the holder the Sharmapa lineage as a very little boy. He didn’t have a chance to be free, or get a real secular education, none of them do , to this day. . He can’t give it up, tulkuhood, the perks, the fantasy lineages of “he was this and that ‘incarnation’ the farthest he can go is that tulkus still need training, but he doesn’t give up that they are tulkus i.e. incarnate higher beings come back to earth. . (that is why it appears as double talk) I think he is double talking or ‘doublespeaking in Lamaesque while talking about democracy and ‘decentralized goverments” and blah blah blah, without a clue probably that he is doing it, (All these Lamas are still half in the 8th century of superstition , magical beliefs, and the belief that they are ‘special beings ‘ still needing to be trained maybe , that is his concession, but still very special with very special births, it is “Brahminism” and they can’t see this ,not even a Sharmapa, , and 8 months of western education in a university isn’t going to cut it. , while still believing in the tulku lineage fantasies.these Lamas have been ‘soaked’ in it since they were little boys. And most of their education thereafter was Lamaism, with a very superficial understanding of the west or democracy, or what it is like to grow up with a western education. They can’t , they just cant. even if they aspired to do it. . They are too limited and their whole educational Tulku system was so narrow and so stifling. It destroys critical thinking.

    Until the whole system ,including the corrupted Guru worshipping is destroyed, (and these Lamas are doing everything to preserve it, including this Sharmapa, That is why he seems to be talking out of two sides of his mouth at the same, time. Does he know it? I don’t know, they have no self-insight, and they have no ability to understand what they ‘don’t know’ about the west, because they have spent 40 years and more, taking our money and looking down on us, literally as barbarians, with no belief that they have anything to learn from us, or from the west. Otherwise they would have to give up their ‘omniscient persona’ that they depend on to get the west to take care of them. The Dalai Lama however is quite aware of his doubletalk I believe, quite machivellian in what he is doing. Sharmapa is trying, trying to ‘have his cake and eat it too” as we say.

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  275. http://www.shamarpa.org (link above in post) is very interesting reading Chris. As I do not come from a Buddhist background and would have had the opinion that a Buddhist spends his life meditating, which seems to be the case, I would like to have your opinions on the above as it reminds me of what you term doublespeak in Tibetan lamaism.

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  276. “It doesn’t take a 3 year old to suss out that snakes don’t talk to humans and that an old man doesn’t sit watching us from a cloud in the sky.”

    I suppose a 3 year old would find the bible a daunting book to read. I presume your parents were unable to explain it to you.

    Bye bye 2

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  277. So I don’t think that discussion is off topic at all, it is the main deceptive cause of how they are getting away with all the terrible things they do,

    Every thing is related but not under this thread, I am moving this comment to:
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion/
    Lamaism Discussion
    Also you continually mix up the term for a religion Hindu with the concept of a Country or language, Hindustani. Could you please use that in referring to to the vajrayana background?
    You do not seem to notice this but you bring every aspect of the problem into every thread and thereby overdose each thread with the colonization of Western thought, Education, Psychology and every aspect of life. These are all good observations but please leave them for the specific issue, rather than bringing them into every comment. You like the EB said you were giving commenting with her a break and have returned without a break? You made a post last week which does not need to be babysitted by you. You have a right to comment, but allow the post to take its own identity.
    We are happy for you to post a separate post on each of these issues, but please keep them separate.
    Here we are happy to just focus on Tantric Couple Copulation Lamaism is not Buddhism.
    Thanks DI

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  278. ecumenical buddhist

    Thank you. I understand. Bye bye

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  279. In other words, we have a Christian interpretation of “compassion’ just by growing up in a predominantly Christian culture, even if we think we have left Christian thinking at 4 years old or 14 years old, we are conditioned, I believe quite postively by it when it comes to ‘compassion,” but this is not what Lamas mean, and that is how they have fooled us and how they use that word, knowing we will have one meaning, but the meaning for them is to justify everything they do in the name of ‘their definition of compassion’ i.e.spreading themselves wide and far.

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  280. The use of the mahayana, and its ‘bodhisattva’ motivation, which is a main tenet of the mahayana,, is directly related to the ‘couple tantra sex’ that is justified by these Lamas…………..
    has been moved to https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion/
    It is not that these issues are not important but we want to totally focus on the specifics of this post
    Tantric Couple Copulation Lamaism is not Buddhism

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  281. you’ll be raging at the ether….i’ll be on a plane in 30 minutes, so you can have the vicious last word!

    When you relax and take time to reflect we clearly see now this Tiresias figure is not so detached as we originally thought. What ever you do do not try a Daedulus on your Skis. enjoy your break.

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  282. It doesn’t take a 3 year old to suss out that snakes don’t talk to humans and that an old man doesn’t sit watching us from a cloud in the sky.

    I loathed christianity long before meeting buddhism and so could not have been influenced by a sangha.

    You all still think I’m a buddhist just because I used a funny moniker don’t you.

    Seems some adults don’t understand what they read, never mind a 3 year old. Bye now, you’ll be raging at the ether….i’ll be on a plane in 30 minutes, so you can have the vicious last word!

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  283. I see Taiwan has far more ‘freedom of speech’ actually operating in their country, as we can see by their banners, and protests in the film. Yet people come on here, calling them the ‘totalitarian influenced’ regimes!

    We should be so lucky to have the ‘freedom of speech ‘ of Taiwain, in the west, while our ‘politically correct ‘ police in the west let anyone call everything ‘libelous’ if anyone is ‘offended” by criticism, while simultaneously letting gross and massive sexual abuse in these cults, called ‘new religious movements’ be absolved from all scrutiny, and go completely off the radar.

    Talk about the world losing its moral bearings and chaos resulting. But chaos is very helpful, if the goal is to remedy it with a more totalitarian regime with these totalitarian religions , like Tibetan lamaist Hindu religious influences, helping to quell people into ignorance, emotional reactions, and conformity, i.e. ‘groupthink’,

    Christianity has to go, because it is ‘family’ oriented, and advocates monogamy, that leads to families, and families exert more pressure on resources.

    In this country, thanks to the Hindu Lama influences, we have a thing massively sweeping younger generations, we have what is called “oneitis” now, i.e. you are considered neurotic if you are in a monogamous relationship. So Polyamorphy is the new thing. Threesomes or more are encouraged, and of course Tibetans are held up as a model of freedom for women in the west by the neoliberal chorus of ‘new feminists’ in the west. In Tibet polyandry was a woman with 2 or three or more brothers, Westerners are so stupid and being told, like being told being a sexual consort of some ancient lama that this was a ‘blessing’ being with Sogyal or Kalu or any of them.

    Polyandry is being held up as more freedom for women, by the smart, ‘new feminist’ set, who haven’t a clue about much these days. When what it actually meant, as a female at the bottom of the food chain in a misogynistic country like Tibet….she could be abused by a gaggle of brothers and be a domestic and physical slave to all of them. So westerners don’t bother to actually research how awful that was for women, and was used to limit Tibetans having land and resources that monogamous families would demand so the lamas could have more for themselves, but still have a large population of males working their small pieces of land shared between them. Many of these Tibetan fathers don’t know who the fathers actually were of these children, and that probably made it easier to give up a son to the monasteries as a tax or offering the women didn’t have any say in much about this, despite being the brighter segment of the population. Being bright, doesn’t mean anything if you are a slave, as we now know having experienced these Lamas up close.

    The point of all this is , we don’t bother to really research who these lamas are, how awful in reality their ‘religion’ really is and the abuses it perpetrates as the Taiwanese have done, and who are now speaking out against it.

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  284. It was angie who you asked you the questions so why the parania?
    It is clear you where not able to give her more than facts, no psychological insights at all.

    I feel vindicated

    We will leave the last word to you!

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  285. Sankappa wrote:

    Now however, I would like to point out to DI that my argument is quite relevant to this discussion.

    No doubt it is but it is really as beluga424 has written taking us off the thread about Tantric Couple Copulation Lamaism is not Buddhism. If you, Chris and beluga424 want to engage further on this topic and there is no reason why you should not could you after this do so under this thread.
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/tibetan-buddhist-discussion/
    Please focus as you have all done on this thread and not on Buddhist philosophical disputes.
    What is written is written but from here on in please do not use this thread for that purpose. We have had no comments on Tantric Couple Copulation Lamaism is not Buddhism for some time.

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  286. EB wrote,

    “It asked me to believe what I knew was not possible and having read through the old testament and part of the new, then having watched how people ‘practised’ and after being told that it would ‘benefit me socially to belong to a church’ I immediately discarded it. there is no god, just money making institutions.”

    I have no difficulty believing a five year old can read, however, it boggles the mind that a five year old can understand the language of the old testament. One has to have a pretty good idea of geography as well. The new testament would be easier when explained by an adult. I would see difficulty with understanding parables. You are saying that you had a highly developed critical analytical mind at the age of five? I would say you were highly influenced.

    EB wrote,

    “Also I don’t know Tony Quinn., especially if he’s anything to do with christianity.”

    Apart from the fact that he had his followers believing he was the reincarnated Jesus and his followers were Moses, Mary Magdalene, etc., etc., there is no Christian message in his ‘philosophy’. If you read my comment you would see that I am referring to how people are led to expect their needs and wants to be taken care of, he would say with the power of energy and since he believes he is the most highly evolved person on the planet he charges them for his AMAZING ability. He is a plagiarist of different belief systems and elevated himself to the position of a guru and had his followers believe his ‘philosophy’ to be unique. In truth he is a conman with no conscience who, similar to Lamaism, believe that what they have belongs to him; thieves, the lot of them.

    EB wrote,

    “FYI I could read when a was 3, may eldest started reading at 18 months and now is at oxford reading linguistics, so no comments about me lying. Some have the genetics for these skills, others have different skills. Did I miss any other questions?”

    Children who are educated by their parents at a very young age do have an advantage; however, I do not believe they are cognitively or emotionally developed to the degree that they make self-informed choices on religion. Again I would say you were highly influenced. I would also say that if you concentrated more and broadened your reading on the subject being discussed the comments would be clearer to you.

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  287. Thanks for the answer on the proof reading. DI. I have been able to ‘brighten the light on my computer, which really helped. And the word processor idea is a good one too.

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  288. She answered it , but they went into her ‘fast and early reading’ as an excuse, she also responded to me way up , when I was made positive remarks about Christianity , as proof I was back to Christianity.

    ecumenicalbuddhist responds:
    EB
    “Aha! I knew it! You’ve gone back to Christianity! So, no bias there…?
    Sweetie, I’ve been an atheist since i was a small child, I think it’s all rubbish, from Lamaism to Zoroastrianism and everything in between, including Christianity.

    I don’t think people know how deeply anti-Christian Buddhism, as taught in these western sanghas, really is and how ‘non ecumenical’ their environments are. While saying they are ‘ecumenical’ I think that ‘non ecumenicalbuddhist’ has exposed this, I would have had the same beliefs that were reinforced within these groups myself at one time, and it would have continued as long as I was identified with being a labeled “buddhist” in these groups, or out of them. These anti-Christian attitudes are now reinforced through our mainstream controlled propaganda machines, Hollywood (whose movies often contain subliminal messages about Buddhism, i.e. rupas of buddhas, as part the decor and sets, etc, talk about ‘karma’ and ‘reincarnation’ constantly) and corporate controlled T.V. and news, at least that is the way it is here in the States, which has become rabidly ‘anti-Christian”over the last 20 years or so, in no small part to these Hindu Vedic Buddhist influences permeating our society.

    And that hypocrite DL goes out pretending to the world that he is ‘ecumenical” when he couldn’t , in reality be further from this in truth.His whole upper teachings of the Kalachakra are about a Holy War with the Semitic religions.

    Lamas only see their Vajrayana Buddhism as the ‘superior “religion and tell everyone it is ‘nontheistic’ even though the Vajrayana ‘buddhists’ are prostrating to these lamas as minigods themselves. So ‘ecumenical ‘ is another disguise they use, while conditioning people to actually be anti-Christian, particularly if they have had negative experiences with Christianity including Catholicism in their childhoods. I think that is important to expose, and the knee jerk anti Christian reaction does not operate from just a vacuum, or from childhood experiences, it is reinforced in these Buddhist groups.

    So someone could have a ‘moniker ‘ of ‘ecumenical buddhist’ and still be the farthest thing from ‘ecumenical’ without even knowing it.

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  289. I wish DI had an ‘edit’ choice on their World Press? So do we. But due to DOS attacks we maintain the basic package. I suggest you do your thinking first and instead of just typing straight onto the blog, you take a few minutes to write it up as a Word document and then edit before copying and pasting. You can also deal with grammar and punctuation better that way. I do edit material to remove mistakes but some days can’t as monitoring from a phone.

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  290. We will publish this article by Stephen Batchelor soon to further that discussion
    Buddhism and Sex: The Bigger Picture

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  291. And ecumenical buddhist, many of us were disgusted with the hypocrisy of some Christians when we were very little children, THAT is also not uncommon. I had the same reactions when I was 4 years old regarding the Catholic Church and the hypocrisy of the nuns and priests,but as adults, and particularly adults who come out of the massive brainwashing in our society to be actively anti-Christian if one identifies with being ‘liberal,’in no small thanks to these Hindu Lamaist influences, and ‘neo liberal right of center” political influences that have converged, one remembers that there are many good, decent and intelligent Christians, the majority, that are educated, are compassionate, really compassionate, in what we mean by that word. It has been Christian organizations that often help the poor, regardless of their religious affiliations, they do it because of the teachings of Jesus, and just to respond to your other childish, knee jerk reaction, so typical of neo liberal, right of center Buddhists now, who respond sarcastically to even the word “Christian.” No, I am not back to Christianity, I remain a non-theist, and have been since I was 14 years old. It was what attracted me to Tibetan Lamaism, because they lured me in, believing that they were non-theistic, simply because they said so, another one of their ‘Deceptive Words” ‘non theistic’ when they are the furthest things from this. I soon was in a massive theistic, repressive fundamentalist , guru worshiping cult, with a bunch of mini-Gods on thrones,each with their own slavish devotees, surrounded by a panoply of icons and gods and goddesses and old dead Lamas to worship. Which is what all western Tibetan Lamaists are engaged in, i.e. fundamental theocracy of the Lamas, while putting down Christians for their theism! It would be laughable, it it didn’t have the terrible consequences of the prejudices it has bred and added to in western societies, whereby well-educated people just knee jerk react, to even the word ‘Christian” as they do to the word “Chinese” and Communist.” So instead of learning from it, as painful as that might be, you keep making it worse. So yes, I believe you are still ‘thought controlled’ and your critical reasoning has been undermined, even though you could read at 3 years old.

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  292. That last post was to Ecumenical buddhist, by the way. Not anyone else above.

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  293. To Ecumenical buddhist
    Your posts now are about you, and your :”self-aggrandizing” in defense of your lack of critical reasoning and knee jerk reactions to the film and other comments. A list of an ‘I am so smart mini-narratives, and this is why I ignorantly responded to the film”, Is still off topic and really just keeps exposing how you ‘sort yourself out’ in the ‘superiority club and their subcategories. .

    You are still not discussing the issues, why don’t you just ‘observe’ from your ‘detached tower’ and from your distant, entertained superior position, you are not adding anything to this discussion. No one cares about your reading at 3 years, (so could I and it is not that uncommon many people can) and how brilliant your elder child is thanks to your superior genes.

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  294. To DI and sankappa,

    Since I’m not thoroughly familiar with Vajrayana doctrines, I had no idea that the term Hinayana carries the connotation that you mentioned. In Chinese Buddhism, the tradition of Buddhism I’m most familiar with, people use the term Mahayana or Hinayana simply as objective descriptions of the different parts of teachings in the Buddha Dharma.

    It’s alright for you or anybody to disagree on this. The Buddhist teachings one picks up in Japan, Korea, Sri Lanka, U.S. , Europe, or any particular sect or school can be quite different, not just in terms of tenets, practice methods, and also the presentation of Buddhist history. So with all due respect, I didn’t deliberately degrade one vehicle or the other. It’s just that our underlying understanding and interpretation of the Buddha Dharma and Buddhist history is different.

    DI, I don’t want to carry on the debate with sankappa about whether the term Hinayana is a myth perpetuated by TB to degrade other tradition and elevate their own because I do agree that TB ‘s claim that their Diamond Vehicle is above all other vehicles is an aggrandized, untrue one. As for the rest of the subject matters sankappa disagrees, I don’t think they are relevant to our discussion and also to prove anything requires lengthy essay with references to support the argument.

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  295. Having trawled throught the logorrhoea, I found angie’s question about the bible throwing. Yes, as a primary school child I knew it was nonsense.

    It asked me to believe what I knew was not possible and having read through the old testament and part of the new, then having watched how people ‘practised’ and after being told that it would ‘benefit me socially to belong to a church’ I immediately discarded it. there is no god, just money making institutions.

    Also I don’t know Tony Quinn., especially if he’s anything to do with christianity.

    FYI I could read when a was 3, may eldest started reading at 18 months and now is at oxford reading linguistics, so no comments about me lying. Some have the genetics for these skills, others have different skills. Did I miss any other questions?

    My tendency is not to read every word of every thing as it’s ‘same old same old’ after a while. I prefer bullet points, no time for more than that.

    No doubt you’ll all start screaming again and more insults will fly, but now I think I’ve answered your questions and I feel vindicated, i’m definitely offski.

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  296. These are people that could let their own people live in filth, poverty, semi-starvation, uneducated, and under grueling labor to benefit the Lamas,even steal their boy children as a tax, and their young women for sexual activity, and call it a great ‘blessing’. and ‘compassion’ and “unselfish” activity on their part. And most of the lamas actually ‘believe this ‘ about themselves”. Although some I believe are true sociopaths by western definition , but most actually believe they are ‘compassionate’ by enslaving people, whom they believe are just ‘human’ and they are superhuman ‘precious ones’ come to save us by enslaving us in their sick system. They have NO INSIGHT about themselves and what they have done and are doing, none, zippo, zero. Now that is “thought control” that they themselves have been awash in for centuries, controlled by the system they are perpetuating, , and that is what I mean by their massively ‘thought controlling” the west, and particularly psychologists ,academia, parts of the medical profession who think they are just about stress relaxation meditation techniques, and who believe that the Lamas are ‘extraordinarily compassionate’ because they simply use this word ‘compassion’ over and over, as a thought control ‘meme’ and no one bothers to ‘deconstruct ‘ this one word and what they actually mean by it.

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  297. If people could understand just how this ‘right motivation’ of the mahayana teachings is completely twisted by them,to perpetuate their thought controlling cult of Lamaism and how Lamaism is just about them, and only them, and has nothing at all to do with Buddhism, and is a complete distortion of Buddhism, They are even using the Hindu Tantra, one could say, in a twisted way , to spread these tantric teachings ( since this was not meant to be taught to large masses of people , but was only between a ‘master and disciple’) which has allowed them to again, all over the world, become powerful by breaking the vinaya vows, and lying, hoarding the wealth of others, (which is stealing) cheating, engaging in sexual actiivity for their own so-called ‘bliss’ realization, and breaking all the other vows of the vinaya, for one purpose, and one purpose only : to perpetuate themselves and enslaving people to help perpetuate themselves. It is as though we have slave masters, coming to conquer the world now, and convincing the ‘slaves’ they create around them , that they are great ‘bodhisattvas ‘ filled with compassion” and the would -be slaves are lured in with this ‘compassion talk’ not knowing at all the meaning the lamas have on this concept, which is not at all what the rest of us mean. As Sakpanna succinctly put it:

    “So, it sounds like the usual experiences of Lamaism – where’s your women, where’s your money, clean my temple and cook my meals ”

    This is what they want to perpetuate for themselves and they will do anything and call it the ‘compassion’ of a bodhisattva to do it..

    If people could begin to understand this one thing about them, i.e. their deceit and their justification for deceit and twisting all morality of a society, and insidiously spreading this amorality ,while calling it ‘compassion’ I think a whole lot would be cleared up about who they are and what they are doing here, really. What they have always done. Perpetuate themselves for themselves. Its really that simple.

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  298. The most insidious aspect of the way the Vajrayana has twisted things is the idea of ‘intent’ and ‘right motivation’ and takes the concepts of ‘right motivation’ or ‘bodhisattva motivation’ of the mahayana teaching that ‘killing’ is alright if it was to save sentient beings.and we can see how that can be distorted by the 969 Theravadins in Burma presently as they say they are doing it to save Buddhism. Slaughtering Muslims is o.k. as long as it is done with this ‘distorted motivation” and 969 was influenced by the Kalachakra teachings of the Holy War against Muslims, documented on a reference on their web site, but since taken down) .

    There are many parables taught in the Vajrayana about ‘bodhisattva’ motivation. But the Vajrayana takes the Vinaya vows and turns it all on its head, i.e. not lying, cheating, sexual activity, alchohol consumption, even killing,etc. and says, ‘if this is done with ‘bodhisattva’ motivation, than these activities can be engaged in , if it is in the name of ‘spreading the dharma’. i.e. for them. the tantric vajrayana. That is what is so deceptive about Dalai Lama, because when he uses the word ‘compassion’ people don’t know that he means only this by compassion, and not what ordinary people mean, i.e. feeling empathy and engaging in helping others, (notice they never give the money they hoard like gollums for any other cause, except building more monasteries, and translating their ‘lineage texts’ of their sects, or giving $million to the Mind Life Institute, which is giving it to themselves and the Dalai Lamas ‘mindfulness training and ‘secular ethics bogus front). What they mean by ‘compassion’ is just that, spreading Lamaism and what they consider ‘right intent’ and ‘right motivation’ and that is what they mean by a ‘bodhisattva’ act. So everything gives them permission, to do whatever it takes to spread their Lamaism, even their own monks and nuns ‘setting themselves on fire’ is said by the Dalai Lama to be a ‘bodhisattva acti’ and he has stated this in many places, and their own lascivious indulgences in sexual activity , using females promiscuously for their own so-called furtherance of ‘realization’ is considered a ‘bodhisattva” act and coming from their vast ‘compassion’.. So it is not just that they have demeaned the teachings of the Buddha by this made up ‘third wheel’ turning, but they are literally twisting the teachings on their head, and calling ‘right intent’ and ‘right motivation’ whatever they want to do to spread their mass lamaism done in the ‘name of the Buddha’ which is such a terrible lie. .

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  299. Beluga, you have not addressed the salient points of my last post:

    1. You have aligned the early teachings (specifically the 4NT) with the term Hinayana
    2. Hinayana in terms of a form of Buddhism or a doctrine is a complete myth. It does NOT exist, it’s a red herring a straw-man
    3. The term is derogatory, and was a device used in early sectarianism to deride. It was meant to have very negative connotations, but in more recent times has been given a euphemistic wash-over.

    Now, I notice your use of the term “the first round of dharma transmission”, implying that there were further transmissions, that is, the three turnings of the wheel, version of Buddhism. No offence intended, bit it’s just complete crap. There was no second and third turnings of the wheel of Dhamma. This is just more myth and fabrication, perpetuated by guess who, again?? Secondly, the Heart Sutra is not Buddhavacana. Sure it’s an inspired sutra, but it’s also a Mahayana polemic – read, an imaginary deity (Avalokiteśvara) giving Sariputta a lesson on emptiness of the khandas … hahaha … imagine, the Buddha’s closest disciple, foremost in wisdom getting a lesson from an imaginary being (the hero of the Mahayana), you don’t need to read between the lines to see the provocation and sectarian jibes, now enshrined in the Mahayana’s most important sutra.

    I see you are having trouble understanding nihilism V. eternalism, and can tell why, because you are coming from a Mahayana, probably Vajrayana background which so confuses it all (particularly Vajrayana). If you had studied the Nikayas you would see that it’s just not that complicated. Gautama was neither an eternalist or nihilist – it’s the middle–way again hahaha, and it’s all there, in the profound and elegant symmetry of the Nikayas. But as you said, this is another discussion, not for this forum.

    Now however, I would like to point out to DI that my argument is quite relevant to this discussion. It’s pointing out how the Vajrayana uses terms such as Hinayana as a device to perpetuate a myth and to paint their vehicle as the highest and most evolved, while distracting from the fact that Vajrayana is not actually Buddhadhamma. As I said it’s all myth and fabrication to dupe the unsuspecting for their own selfish purposes. It’s Brahmanism re-badged!

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  300. Also I would value your evaluation of the material other than the Tantric material from our Taiwanese friends. They seem to have to have done a lot of research on the Lamaism issue!

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  301. We have no objection to this debate but as Beluga says it is not relevant to this thread we do have a sillover thread which might be better. I think you both agree on the Tantra issue and want to focus on that. Thanks DI

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  302. Dear sankappa,

    First I want to keep my reply short as this is a thread for Tantric Buddhism rather than a forum for Buddha’s teachings.

    I don’t use the term Hinanyana in a derogatory way, only to describe the teachings Buddha Sakyamuni gave during the first round of dharma transmission, in which He focused on how to bring an end to future rebirth by ceasing compulsive reincarnation.

    What perplexed Batchelor was that, if everything is contingently existed and if Buddha rejected the existence of a permanent self, then what survives physical death, stores the seeds of karma and persists from life to life?? Later on when he went to the Korean Zen monastery, he was told there is one Mind that is the permanent Self but he thought that it is the Atman (Self/God) that Buddha has rejected. Why the confusion and conflicting notion?

    From what I’ve studied and understood, after teaching his disciples about how to end suffering through the Four Noble Truths, the Buddha expounded on the Mind entity that is the origin of our existence and all dharma — the Mind described in the Heart Sutra. For if one denies there’s a permanent entity and believes that everything becomes nothing in the end, one is be definition a nihilist. The Dalai Lama has called this permanent Mind the very subtle consciousness as he’s aware of the logical fallacy.

    The so-called Hinayana is only part of the teaching from the perspective of this one Mind as the Buddha taught his followers how to extinguish future rebirth based on the properties this Mind. From this perspectives, the Four Noble Truths were established upon the basis of this Mind, and the Buddha assured those who would like to end future existence that the nirvana is not nothingness. And this Mind is definitely not the Atman. In the second and third round of dharma transmission, the Buddha did explicated on the existence and functions of this Mind. The Shurangama Sutra is one great example.

    My point was that the dharma TB taught is incomplete and mutilated, which gave rise to Batchelor’s inquiries and doubts.

    I don’t want to get deeper into about what you and I believe is the correct interpretation of Buddha’s teaching in this forum as DI has repeatedly told us to not stray from the subject. Would be glad to discuss with you in a forum about Buddhist doctrine.

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  303. beluga, on January 5, 2014 at 3:14 pm said:

    Moreover, so far I have read 4 books by Batchelor and based on what he recounts, what he learned from his TB teachers merely touches on some of the Hinayana teachings, primarily the Four Noble Truths of suffering. I don’t see any traces of Mahayana Buddhist tenets in Batchelor’s accounts. Any comment on that?

    So Beluga, THE foundational teaching that all other teachings are derived from, the truths (that is, the Four Noble Truths) that Gautama actually awakened to, are Hinayana? Hinayana, which is often referred to as the small or lesser vehicle but which is actually a euphemism for what Hinayana was originally intended to mean, that is: coarse, vulgar, ignoble and harmful. So are you aware you are attributing these meanings to the teachings of the Buddha, and the Four Noble Truths at that?

    Let’s be clear here. The term Hinayana is a derogatory term historically used by the Mahayana and Vajrayana but now almost exclusively by the Vajrayana to perpetuate a myth and to deride a school that does not exist and has never existed, while also not so subtly undermining the original teachings of the Buddha, which when you actually take a modicum of time to investigate, they (the Vajrayana) have very little time for, as they are a Hindu/Brahministic derived sect, whose main aim is Lama worship, while paying at best, only lip service to the Buddha and Buddhadahmma. This is all part of their indoctrination and conditioning and Beluga you perpetuate it by continuing to use their insidious terminology.

    The teachings of Gautama found in the Pali Canon and their counterparts in the Chinese Agamas stand as the closest source we have to the original teachings and words of the Buddha, and are NOT Hinayana as asserted by the Vajrayanist, whose teachings are a distortion of, and bear no resemblance to.

    Hinayana, as a term applied by the Lamaists, has no relation to any extant school of Buddhism or has any basis in describing the early discourses of the Buddha. In fact, Hinayana is a complete myth and fabrication.

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  304. It seems someone took the time to ask you the questions. All you need to do is scroll down and look out for Angie on this thread.

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  305. Leave the thread, not the site. It was you said you were leaving and I agreed that it was a good idea.

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  306. ….so long as I don’t have to trawl through a load of verbosity to find the questions.

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  307. why are you so interested in my answering questions when you have asked me to leave the site? Still hooked in are you? I’ll answer anything as I’ve nothing to hide.

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  308. Thanks for your British colonial comment. I just said you agreed so why are still on here. I do believe Angie asked you a couple of questions?
    Exit11
    Irrational Paddy

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  309. PS: if you all hadn’t gotten so hysterical and irrational you’d have seen my second post admitting I hadn’t looked at the video before writing the first post.
    Geez, the education system in ireland must be getting worse if reading skills are that bad!

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  310. Sounds like you just can’t let go. You said you were leaving and say each time you are relaxed and having a ball. You are basically poking yourself in the eye. This thread is about Tantric couple sex which you agree is not on. So what is your problem. Exit 10

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  311. You’re not reading the posts at all are you? I admitted it right at the beginning….ego? Sounds like buddhist jargon! I’m loving this, can’t resist poking at you all.

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  312. Until you admit you made a complete mess of not reading the post and viewing video your ego will keep you on here.
    Exit9

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  313. yes, there’s been a load of emotional reaction from people, eh?
    maybe that needs to be addressed before you can move forward with the anti lamaist agenda

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  314. No one suggested you were a Lamaist, but your confusion is about PRC and the Republic of China, (Taipei.) You allowed your justified political actvity in support of Human Rights to react emotionally to a video you had not watched. Suck it up… and exit8

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  315. You mean misrepresenting me as a lamaist , ‘thought controlled’ psychologist and ‘evil nurse’ which I’m not? haha!X

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  316. We do not block people, we just move it to an appropriate thread, commenting or Lamaism. Do what you like but before you use your machine next time please do not fire on the wrong enemy. More reflection before misrepresenting others.
    Exit6

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  317. I mean ‘mistakes could be corrected ‘after posting. There is an ‘edit button , and you can correct and resend. Easier to see mistakes once its a post.

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  318. Sorry for the non proof reading, of my post, my light in my computer has dimmed and I can’t brighten it, or haven’t figured out how. It’s hard to see the mistakes I am writing when looking over it. And I type too fast. But the gist of it is there, anyway, I hope. I am going to figure out how to make my screen clearer and brighter when typing.

    I wish DI had an ‘edit’ choice on their World Press? So mistakes could be corrected before posting? Is that too expensive an option to add?

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  319. Batchelor , I believe, has gone in a very stripped down of ‘institutionalized Buddhism” of all the traditions. You probably remember in :”Confessions” that went for many years, to study with a Korean Buddhist teacher, and found that he was just as rigid when it came to really questioning things in his ‘sangha set up’. So he left that teacher as well. I would imagine this was a Mahayana teacher, and Batchelor stopped believing in the whole notion of ‘reincarnation’ (and probably therefore karma) or at least he took an ‘agnostic view of this.

    I think that Batchelor IS reaching a lot of western ex Tibetan Lamaists,and in his way, because he is a ‘teacher’ and doesn’t want to scare them off, but will have a profound effect ,as he did on us, being one of the first ‘teachers’ who tells it like it is about TB .

    But how many millions of recruits , new recruits into Tibetan Lamaism is he going to reach ? Particularly the ones that are being mass hypnotised by the Dalai Lama and these other deceptive Lamas, who are now telling them, ‘oh you don’t have to study Tibetan Buddhism , but are hypnotising these people non-the less , with their ‘feminist’, “ecological” , ‘ecumentical’ and now ‘secular ethics masks!!! When these Lamas are neither secular (never had a secular education) and are not ethical by western standards, and in fact, in the Vajrayana are allowed to turn ethics on tis head to spread their mass monasticism.

    So how do you reach the general public? , you have to be more direct, like the Tawainese are doing, and its seems that is there goal, to reach the general public, because they are really concerned about both the sexual abuse of their own people which we are certainly not concerned here, and particularly the helping professionals in the west , the psychologists are not concerned, because most of them were sought out by the Lamas, and are now thought controlled by them, either deeply or even if they just read the Huffington Post , or the New York times, (who have Lamaist writing in their religious sections ) they are the ones that should be scared, the psychologists that are knowingly turning away from their duties to report abuse and are instead, ‘aiding and abetting it” and Instead of threaten libel suits against whistle blowers!! dont’ hide it at all, with the ‘helping professionals in the U.S. who are required by law and their own western oaths to not cause abuse, nor to aide and abet it and to report it, but are instead with their ‘detached ‘ attitudes and neutrality! coming on blog sights , set up for cult victims of abuse, abusing the ‘whistle blowers. I mean what kind of insanity is that? Well it is the insanity of a country that has been massively infiltrated by Lamaism, particularly the academics and psychologists that don’t know they have been ‘thought controlled’ Is that scary or what? When psychologists in a nation are the ones that have been the most thought controlled and purposely by these lamas, that is scary. So yes, I want to light a fire under them and there collusion with this abuse, which as a psychologist, is against the law , they should be more scared of that ,instead of threatening people with libel inuendos.

    So the general public are the ones being massively fooled by the Lamas, and they are the ones that are first waking up. It is always the general public that demands changes, When they turn the tide, and now half the comments on blogs about the Dalai Lama and Lamaism, thanks to a few brave psychologists and journalists and others speaking out now, that the tide will shift against them. But they are ‘racing’ to fool more and more people, Just google the Dalai Lama and he is really going after the Southern States, of course Lamaism already has ‘departments’ in some of our southern and Midwestern universities like Emory and University of Wisconsin. That is there new target, Universities all over America, and the APA and psychologists are ‘enabling them to do this with their ‘detached neutrality”.

    So writing in Psychology today, which will reach millions of people instead of some article that no one reads except ex-buddhists, or buddhists on the fence, or some dry academic paper on Tibetan Lamaism, that is constrained by academic form, and academic. ‘neutality that says nothing ‘offensive’ is the thing that will make a difference. Stephen Batchelor will only take it so far, but it is a ‘good start.”

    Tawain is the inspiration for me these days.,

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  320. Christ, Totally agree with you that the Buddha didn’t teach us to take up any blind faith, otherwise why would He took the pains and inconveniences to manifest in our world and taught Dharma for so many years.

    I was reading Stephen Batchelor’s Confession of a Buddhist Atheist. Batchelor was able to see through the logical loophole in TB’s doctrine and all the meaningless visualization practices and mantra chanting. Here’s his reflection of the Dorje Shugden downgrade decreed by the Dalai Lama:

    “I found all of this extremely weird. The same people who expounded a finely reasoned philosophy of emptiness turned out to be fervent believers in what to me was little more than occult mumbo jumbo (p. 96).”

    I know that Batchelor has spoken up about the abuse-prone nature of the Couple Practice but not sure if he has outright denounced it as a non-Buddhist practice.

    Moreover, so far I have read 4 books by Batchelor and based on what he recounts, what he learned from his TB teachers merely touches on some of the Hinayana teachings, primarily the Four Noble Truths of suffering. I don’t see any traces of Mahayana Buddhist tenets in Batchelor’s accounts. Any comment on that?

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  321. beluga 24, I saw that article by Kreuger, in Psychology Today and wrote him personally, after he wrote a second post about how he had been attacked in the comments, section below the post, virulently in fact, accused of all the things that the pro-DL and pro TB people do here, for daring to even critcize the Dalai Lama, (only confirming and giving more substance to his article) I told him ‘keep digging.”

    I was so relieved that finally , a psychologist, from a prestigious college was beginning to see and actually ‘speak out!” about the dangers of this Lama worship, and in a major magazine Psychology Today, read by millions in the U.S. and willing to “step out” like this. It is so rare but I believe is growing. When one person speaks out, the power of that leades to 10 and then a 100 and then a million and that is the only thing that will turn this thing around. That is what some people are doing, ecumenicalbuddhist, since you asked, not just coming on here to ‘be entertained”

    What is thrilling to me about the Taiwan video, is that these people are willing to step out and expose this cult of Lamaism, and call it that, ” a cult”, and that it is Lamaism and it is NOT Buddhism. Can you imagine the effect it would have , if more psychologists and academics, regular Buddhists, and even western ex-Tibetan Lamaists who could dust off the cobwebs from their intelligence, (intelligence that is purposely demeaned at these Lama retreats from the beginning that is the ‘rap they all use’ to make us feel bad about ourselves and to puff themselves up) and westerners are told that being too ‘intelligent is the problem'(at all of Tosknyi R’s retreats this is happening , and I am sure Sogyal teaches that too, since Sogyal is TR’s mentor, as he says over and over and Ripa and Pundarika are “all one big family” Imagine if more people and particularly academics and psychologists in our society were willing to step out like this? , Instead of going about their business “detached” except when they come on here attacking people who do criticize passionately the dangers these Lamas and their Lamaism poses. and therefore are indirectly continuing the abuses, I find that disgusting from anyone claiming to be in the ‘helping professions” Who one earth are you helping, and helping them to do what ? Go to sleep after you resuscitate them from a heart attack. You teach them to go back to sleep, in a walking coma ? Teaching them to ‘withdraw from the world emotionally? And that is what you think the Buddha was teaching ? When you give your classes in meditation?

    The Tawainese are a model for us, and instead of the knee jerk reactions that our controlled media and Lamaism has thought controlled us to be spewing out i.e. the “Chinese Communist attack” or the ‘you are very disturbed and angry person ” attack, (the patriarchy is always alive and well in the U.S.) these professionals were instead , inspired by the Taiwanese, who are a model for not only a willingness to be ‘real bodhisattvas’ not by setting themselves on fire for their Kundun, and his poltical causes, but by lighting a metaphorical fire under themselves to do whatever it takes to stop this terrible deception and sexual and spiritual and financial abuses of these Lamas.

    It is the academic and particularly the psychology profession that needs to wake up pronto, and be a role model, exercising their oaths to ‘do no harm and report harm’ and exercising their reasoning and critical intelligence again, and more importantly to ‘speak out’ not run away like they areall doing into their ‘detached, professional neutrality.” . That, ecumenicalbuddhist, since you asked is what some of us are doing to end this. That is what you could be doing instead of being a handmaiden to the abuses by trying to destroy anyone that is critical and openly speaking out about it and with outrage, righteous outrage that is called for when people are being harmed and abused and being put to sleep in a ‘poppy field’ to be further taken advantage of by these Lamas.

    Instead of our knee jerk, prejudicial and rascist comments, programmed deeply in our psyche by the Dalai Lama , we could be looking to Tawain as a role model ,because ONLY by speaking out against this , can we begin to turn the tide of this tyranny with a smiling benign face to fool us.

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  322. I find it intriguing how some memories from childhood are nourished in the cultic environment. Since ecumenical Buddhist has been through the system of Lamaism I thought it interesting to get answers from her, some insight into how her mind is affected by undue influence.

    My question is: Could you elaborate on how your students reacted to you and what you did in response? Due to your past ‘Buddhist’ conditioning would you say that your reaction to them may stem from trauma on your part or was it simply the case implied that there were differences in belief systems?

    You say: “In short, it’s all related by a common theme…people, their needs and hopes. That’s what makes cults. Without those there would be no inroad for cultish abuse.”

    The real problem is they are led to believe that their needs and hopes will be taken care of. Have you visited or read up on the Tony Quinn Centre?

    Your comment: “PS: from the age of 5, when I threw the family bible in the fire, I knew Christianity was not for me…nobody conditioned me in that!”

    What exactly are you saying? Did you have the capacity to read the bible and form an opinion on it or were you misbehaving as a child and threw it into the fire not realising what you were doing? Did you later form an opinion that on some psychic level you understood it was not for you? Is there a possibility that your behaviour was conditioned in some way? It sounds to me that your parents would not have cared what you did with it. Do you remember the incident or is your memory based on a story?

    Could it be, similar to the therapy in the Educo cult that the person is unable to differentiate between the past reality of a memory and the version arrived at in therapy?

    Food for Thought eB

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  323. By the way it is Sunday now, you seem to have a lot of free time. Try to focus on the issue of Tantra which is what this thread is about.

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  324. Exit comment 5!
    We have changed our view from looking at the problem of Sogyal as a sexual abuse issue. We now see it as a Lamaism meme, a point made at the top of the post! Perhaps you missed that too. Or is that “Tosh,” too?

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  325. oops! Forgot to add….Dialogue posting by DI June 19th 2013 at 9.22pm.
    If you trawl through it all , you’ll see how your own position has changed dramatically in 6 months…I still think the word diatribe stands,
    you have been sucked into it. you can be more effective by not getting sucked in and using the angry language of egg throwing.

    I might keep an eye on it for a laugh every month or so …I’d advise you to block me completely…why haven’t you already done this? Masochism?

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  326. Oh, it’s entertaining, isn’t it? Definitely last post, it’s boring now.

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  327. Again you are back at rhe reset button for Lamaism. When in doubt push the NKT button.
    In summary rants about a post she has not viewed, then goes on an anti- Chinese Communist binge and throws dung over N. Korea when we are dealing with Taiwan.

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  328. What particular fit of pique are you referring to?
    1. You said you were leaving site.
    2. Asked to have your name taken off our list. We acted on your rsquest.
    3. Good bye x3

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  329. Dear dI,
    Now my point is proved. You now act just like the NKT which is the worst lamaist cult of all. ‘Disagree and we will destroy you’.

    Go ahead. If this Taiwanese organisation inspects my posts they’ll see what I actually wrote,

    You’re being carried away on a wave, like any political protester who throws eggs in a fit of pique.

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  330. The tendency to politicize any criticism against Tibetan Buddhism and turn it into a “Tibet vs. Chinese Communist” or “the West vs. Chinese Communist” issue is what has been suppressing balanced scholarship about Tibetan Buddhism and Old Tibet ever since the CIA-backed Free Tibet campaign was launched. It is so convenient to discredit and brand those who hold a negative opinion about TB as pro-Communist mercenary. So any American who was against the Iraq War was an unpatriotic supporter of Saddam Hussein or terrorism? This is a common tactic politicians use to silence dissenting voices by smearing their motives.

    Here’s an interview of Prof. Tom Grunfeld, a well-respected scholar who have done years of research on the Tibet issue. Grunfeld has addressed the complexities of the history of Tibet in many of his works:
    http://www.asian-studies.org/eaa/Grunfeld-14-2.pdf

    The Buddhist Middle-Way is not a “keep quiet and be neutral” about all issues ideology. That interpretation of the “Middle Way” is actually what the Chinese Communist has been trumpeting in the recent years to quell civil discontent — only that they call it “Social Harmony” rather than the “Middle Way.” This kind of “harmony” or “middle way” has been advocated in Chinese culture since Confucian time.

    Questioning TB or the Dalai Lama doesn’t mean one is a proponent of its enemy. Many Western scholars too have second opinions about the Dalai Lama (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/one-among-many/201301/the-dalai-lama-brand).

    In many of his blog posts and a published article on Psychology Today, Professor Krueger of Brown University analyzes what account for the Dalai Lama’s unprecedented prestige from a social psychological stand point. Are people blind-sighted by the collective positivism projected onto “His Holiness,” which becomes a self-reinforcing force that works toward the Dalai Lama’s advantage even though a lot of what he preaches are shallow, uncontestable, ego-appealing messages?

    What is neutral and what is extreme? When the issue of Tibetan Buddhism is framed as a “West/Tibet vs. Chinese Communist,” one has already taken a stance and made much assumptions. True that the Chinese Communist is a totalitarian and corrupt regime, but it doesn’t make the feudal theocracy of the Old Tibet acceptable.

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  331. Thank you for this link we will be adding your whole comment to the Taiwanese post.

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  332. I’d forgotten to unsubscribe when the latest round of tosh came through.

    Your use of the word tosh maybe significant, I am cancelling emails to you as I write

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  333. What’s NVC? You’re being silly now, goodnight !

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  334. I will say goodbye for a while myself, it has been grand actually , and take away the floor on Lamaism, but don’t forget the ‘enablers”.

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  335. Right, your last dig on your high horse of psychologist-lightweight. Run away, like most of you do now, go back to your NVC and your meditations classes and your yoga and stay “detached” and therefore
    part of the problem of the explosion of CULTS and their psychological , sexual and spiritual abuse of people.

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  336. EB has said good bye and Chris you are persisting in taking away from this thread. Next time it will be put in the Lamaist section.

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  337. you really need help, not a platform. I’m just unsubscribing as these are getting in the way of legitimate online activities.

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  338. I forgot to mention the medical profession as well, and all the nurses that now have ‘new age’ meditation curriculum. Go back to your ‘self identities’ of being a ‘nurse ‘ and a ‘psychologist’ whichever you self-identify with, you neither learned much as a psychologist or a buddhist over identifying with your ‘professional selves”

    I suggest it is you , who have a lot of ‘sorting out’ based on your obvious ‘trauma’ with your childhood and Christianity , and now lump all Christians together. All psychologistbuddhists I met in my sanghas do that, while having a ‘moniker’ of ‘ecumenicalbuddhist !” . Talk about a lack of self-awareness, but that is what the merging of psychology and buddhism has done to people. it dulls both the clinical skills of a psychologist, and the ability to distinguish what is real buddhism from the fake. Both Trungpa and Namkai Norbu said it would be the ruin of both, and it has, they just didn’t know that it would be TB and its influence that would merge the two so completely and complete the weakening process of both. They weren’t omniscient after all. like their cult members thought. and know that it would be their own lineages of Lamaism, that would take psychology over the edge to merge with buddhism. . A disaster for the western world in the long run, unless psychologists who have not been saturated with this merging, have the backbone to ‘speak out’ Their ‘”star psychologists , teaching right along with Sogyal and leading young women into his sexually abusive lair. That bunch should have their licenses taken away, since they have broken their oaths to do no harm and to report harm to others, or don’t you all bother with those tiresome ‘western’ oaths and don’t take them seriously anymore as psychologists?or nurses? You don’t take a stand anymore? On sexual abuse? That was unheard of in my day when people were practicing as psychologists and nurses, but now they are all going to ‘meditation classes’ and yoga classes, *the Hinduism passivity gets them in two ways. , I have met hundreds of you in the last 20 years , and instead of supporting my outcry determined with me to end this abuse, as both a nurse and a psychologist, you instead come on here and try, which you have over the last months constantly and with ‘detachment’ until your buttons are pushed, to discredit me,, it’s not you, its me that is ‘too angry.

    ‘ I am so sick of psychologists like this , who are really part of the problem in society now, of ‘quelling the masses’ into not protesting anything anymore, with their “pretend equanimity” they garnered from their ‘Buddhist classes’ and yoga classes, “while spewing out anger and hatred about other nations and Christian bashing and particularly towards anyone that speaks out about psychologists or buddhists and the merging of the two. Then ‘run away ‘ when they are ‘called out’. Psychologists Are part of the problem of this sexual abuse continuing. and you just confirm it on here. Losing your own seat in a sea of knee jerking without any consciousness of even doing it. Say your nasty things and then run away, No backbone in this profession anymore. Part of the ‘groupthink’ facilitators, a role that psychologists haven’t always played but do now.

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  339. Anyway, who is this chris chandler? Some kind of expert?
    DI It’s a pleasure to say goodbye. I’d forgotten to unsubscribe when the latest round of tosh came through.

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  340. I correct the following: The comment “To say that Lamaism is pulling us down into further moral decay is ridiculous. We would be doing just a good a job without them.” is sankappa’s.

    It is part of Hindu Tibetan Lama/guru belief systems that, as far as I am concerned, opened the door with a promise of reaching, in my case, deeper relaxation and, for eastern religious seekers, ‘enlightenment’. The Dalai Lama’s’ blessing’ enabled men and women to become practiced seducers. Without chakra manipulation I doubt it would have had the same result.

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  341. Think that is a good idea. You introduced the N. Korea issue. I was just telling you we have addressed it. Do us a favour and do not look at your inbox you have nothing to add.

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  342. The “Behind the Façade of Tibetan Buddhism” video gives me hope. An explanation of the Dalai Lama’s duplicity is put across in such a manner there can be no misunderstanding for anyone who, whether having previous involvement or not, can clearly grasp and corroborate what is being said.

    A Buddhist community got together and did something to stop the abuse of Lamaism. They are getting the truth out in a very effective way to protect the citizens of their country, Taiwan. I applaud them for their courage. What is wrong with the Irish Government that they cannot do the same to warn its citizens of cultic groups? What is stopping the Church from being effective in protecting Catholics from being drawn into cults?

    ecumenical Buddhist, I do not agree with your comment: “To say that Lamaism is pulling us down into further moral decay is ridiculous. We would be doing just a good a job without them.”

    Rather than blame human nature solely do you not see that the greed of gurus/lamas who have used highly suggestible/hypnotic techniques to such a degree that people are conditioned to react in a certain way? What about people who are lured into cults who have no idea there is a sexual ritual involved? Could you elaborate on how your students reacted to you and what you did in response? Due to your past ‘Buddhist’ conditioning would you say that your reaction to them may stem from trauma on your part? Or is it they repelled you to such a degree you could not carry on the classes?

    You say: “In short, it’s all related by a common theme…people, their needs and hopes. That’s what makes cults. Without those there would be no inroad for cultish abuse.”

    The real problem is they are led to believe that their needs and hopes will be taken care of. Have you visited the Tony Quinn centre?

    Chris comments: “We now know that psychology really is a ‘soft science’ as is neuropsychology, two of the most duped professional groups that are having a profound influence on spreading this cult of Lamaism in the name of “mindfulness training”. And they don’t even know it.”

    I do not see a personal attach on you ecumenical Buddhist, just an opinion based on Chris’s experiences and knowledge of what is happening that is enabling Tibetan Lamaism. I also find it strange that you view abusive cults with ‘detachment’ from your emotions. I understand that this is seen as proof of a higher state of mind; however, I never saw it that way. When the conditioned cult persona took hold I was cut off from genuine feelings, in fact, what I learnt from it is that it deepened vulnerability; ‘not caring’ about anything or anyone, in a real sense, who did not comprehend the ‘amazing’ ‘connection’/hypnotic suggestion of the guru. I believe cult ‘detachment’ is a ‘by product’ of too much indoctrinated suggestions/meditation/self-hypnosis. This ‘detachment’ from life’s suffering is not proof of a higher self. Moreover, I believe, in certain circumstances, the natural instinct to self-protect comes into play to preserve some kind of equilibrium, for instance, when surrounded by poverty or a catastrophe or a violent situation. The problems in a society are excused when ‘detachment’ is used for a deliberate convoluted purpose that I believe is the opposite of Christianity.

    Your comment: “PS: from the age of 5, when I threw the family bible in the fire, I knew Christianity was not for me…nobody conditioned me in that!”

    What exactly are you saying? Did you have the capacity to read the bible and form an opinion on it or were you misbehaving as a child and threw it into the fire not realising what you were doing? Did you later form an opinion that on some psychic level you understood it was not for you? Is there a possibility that your behaviour was conditioned in some way? It sounds to me that your parents would not have cared what you did with it. Do you remember the incident or is your memory based on a story?

    I agree Chris “it is only and always passion and people speaking out passionately that ever prevents any thing unhealthy in a society from ending.” I welcome you on Dialogue and read your comments with interest. Furthermore, I have yet to read anything from anyone who can dispute what you say accept of course Joanne who follows the DL party line. I wonder if she will have the courage to watch the video.

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  343. Back to North Korea? Thought we had better stick to the point of the thread.

    I never look around the rest of the site anyway. I’m not out to save the world you see and it’s not my fight.

    All i can see is someone with more psych experience than me decrying that profession, so they mustn’t think much of their own skills.

    I’m an anonymous person and loads of rubbish have been assumed by a quite frankly, disturbing set of obsessive postings.

    My inbox has been dominated by this all day, even though I said at the outset I hadn’t actually watched the video when it first arrived.

    I’m not afraid of DI, Taiwan or anyone else, so I don’t need to hide, otherwise I wouldn’t be so open about my own CV….

    Be careful you aren’t led by the nose. Even if the topic is legitimate, ie abuse by lamas, the barely contained hysteria in some of CC’s posts, from last year right through to today, all saying a load of the same rant makes it harder to take seriously,

    Eventually that kind of ‘passion’ can lead to real trouble….and all because I said ‘mind your sources are legit’….

    I won’t be answering any more posts here..it’s been an interesting Saturday, but I’ve a life. Bye.

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  344. EB you defamed the people whose video we posted. You can’t defame an anonymous person, and stop hiding behind libel. You came on with all guns blazing. Just click on N. Korea and you will see we are ahead of you.

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  345. No I’ve never taught buddhism in my life. I quoted the kalama sutra at my meditation group when they started quoting david icke at me. The kalama sutra just says ‘forget where we came from and where we’re going, just work on being happy in the life we have…my summary, so if you want to rip into it ,fine.

    I think that some of the awful nasty personal things you have written here in this forum have exposed your dark side Chris , and they are libellous. After all I have made no personal attacks on you, just answered your attacks on me.

    When you started posting long rants last year I knew straight away you needed to put some distance between these abuse events and that everything is raw and awful for you. abuse damages minds.

    Everyone who has read around the subject knows that lamaism is related to hinduism, look back at last year’s posts.

    As for stereotyping, Chris really has stereotyped me in knee jerk reactions. She has prejudiced ideas about psychology, 50-something women (even though she thought I was a man….) .a poor judge.

    I’ve not been in your position,mainly because I’d not allow anyone, lama or not, to treat me like that.

    Now either go back to the topic as the DI person says or go out and take action rather than mooch around here endlessly typing.

    In my original post, I was only warning against latching onto other groups in a narrow capacity when there is a bigger picture.

    By the way , after 2 years as a clinical psych , I went into A&E nursing which meant I took part in many resuscitations, most successful with a good team of caring professionals. Anything to say about that? I spent 30 years doing that, looking after people in medical crisis.

    I think your anger and unwillingness to see anything but your own pain makes you a reckless and fiery bedfellow and I’m glad to be an observer in this. Not my fight, mate, but an interesting way to pass a boring Saturday. Glad it’s only a forum and not a screaming hair pulling episode! haha!

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  346. No one is suggesting it is not relevant, but not on this thread. It is not a question of it being my site, but not opening up every idea that comes into your mind. TB was off on a rant, she is silent and you keep commenting…….?

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  347. I dont think so at all, it is the main problem and why it has spread, because of psychologists as a profession and their ‘detached’ attitudes, when I was a psychologist in practice , we were not detached, but of course I was testifying at trials about sexual abuse victims , and advocating for them, and going after abusers, as I am doing that here . and psychologists, taking Dan Goleman as their lead, are the worst of the enablers, right up there with the Lamaists cult members themselves, often the populatons overlap. That was my point, I don’t think it is at all ‘irrelavent’ but this is your site, Or distracting to talk about the No # enablers, beside the western devotees of Lamaism, themselves. They give it credibility , and continue to do so by not speaking out when they see it, ‘too detached’or not seeing it at all.

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  348. TB went off the thread of this post. Can we focus on it not on all the stuff she threw out of the pram- Christianity ,NKT, social sciences, North Korea. It is the Hinduisation of Buddhism which is what you assisted us to understand. We have from our Taiwanese friends got confirmation of your thesis and let us focus on that. It is clear your observations on western culture are distracting from your primary thesis of Lamaism.

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  349. I say I have ‘passion ‘ ecumenicalbuddhist, , aneeded passion to speak out , and you have knee jerk reactions based on programmed stereotypes that don’t cause you to go any deeper, stay detached , as psychologists are wont to do, and that you need to ‘sort yourself’ out before you come on here making a fool of yourself.

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  350. Well she says she is opposed to TB Lamaism DI, but has been massively influenced by it, as all the Buddhists sects have been now , that was on of my main points, , and particuarly psychologists, so I disagree that it is irrelevant. Remember she said she was teaching a course in Buddhism? Psychologist are now the main carriers of Buddhism -lite,. She also felt qualified to ‘teach a course’ in Buddhism, but did she teach the cultic qualities of Tibetan Lamaism? A psychologist that could have made a difference to the ‘enabling ‘ of the psychology profession of this cult, or was she too ‘detached? About it all, ‘it was all the same anyway’ I am saying that that is a Hindu concept that has been infused into our culture and is very dangerous, and psychologists are now the ‘passion slayers’ by the way, when it is only and always passion and people speaking out passionately that ever prevents any thing unhealthy in a society from ending. So I don’t think it is off topic at all.

    Did you tell your students what you really thought about Lamaism, as you did here while they were adoring your as a guru?

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  351. Fifty four , that puts you at the peak of the training of watered down psychology , but it wouldn’t matter, psychologists are now the ‘be nice’ or I will threaten a law suit mold,”Right Speech’ unless one criticizes their pet icons, and then the venom really flows, ‘sweetie, abused person’ ‘ too angy’ the new ‘thought police’ the new buddhist/psychologists that want ot stop all free speech themselves and want to engage in ‘non violent communication’ when the wolf is at the door. PsychologistsBuddhists can not stop the cult phenomenon, they are their handmaidens and if you cant’ see the logic of what I am saying then you are too defended in your ‘self-images’ of who you are to care about anyone this, As I said , there are many mediocre psychologists out there, who were often the ‘Super Children ‘ in dysfunctional families, That is why they are so attracted to Lamaism, Are you going to threaten libel for that statement too?

    There are very few top notch psychologist and clinicians, just like there are few top notch elementary teachers, it is a mediocre profession, where mediocracy rises to the top in both. Are you going to threaten libel for that statement.

    Your buttons have been pushed, not mine.

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  352. OK it is clear the Ecumenical Buddhist is a woman we learnt this months ago. This all went pear shaped because EB did not actaully watch the video and jumped to unwarranted conclusions. Now she has recognised this but has gone off on further tangents which Chris has followed. Could we end this current debate and please focus on the Tantra issue. EB is opposed to Lamaism the rest is irrelevant.

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  353. Now the libelous scare of course because I say psychologists have been duped by their ‘detachment’ and you demonstrate “detachment”, superiority a laid back detached attitude and I say you have been duped into the same detachment that the Lamaist s and psychologists as a profession engage in. And I know it well having been one? Last time I looked Mr. EcumenicalBuddhistPsychologist there is still free speech in this country. Or don’t you know that. What are you going to do, take a libelous claim because I criticize psychologists as a whole and you are a psychologist, but are too cowardly to come on here even with your own name, you just want to be “ntertained ” as you say, on a site set up for abuse victims of Lamaism and other cults, but you don’t care, Mr. Psychologist because you are just watching the show, but have no problem calling my statements ‘venomous and sensational’ protecting TB either indirectly or unconsciously who knows. and have no problem the Buddhist side of apparently, to do that engage in ad hominem attacks right from the gekko, because you don’t like what I say, which is neither professiona of you or buddhist of you, but then after doing all that, go back into your superiorty position of an anonyous writer who has revealed you are a psychologist? and talk ‘libel’ crap? The usual scare tactic of cult groups now who as a whole want to end any free speech at all about them, And knee jerk react that I am personally offending you? Amazing, when it is you that have made libelous statements about me, that I a “venomous, sensational: abused person and are very angry all very personal personal attacks? And you don’t notice, and that is just demonstrating what I am talking about ‘knee jerk’ emotional reactions are o.k. if it is about your detached pet affiliations.

    Everytime you open your mouth I am more conviced that you are someone of the “new age curriculum” neoliberal psychology training. You reveal prejudice against Christians , the whole Chinese speaking group of nations, try to make me a victim and one down, and call me ‘sweetie” on top of it, and want to ‘sue me!!!’ because I criticize the psychology profession and lamaism, as a whole, of which I have a intimate knowledge of both? . You have to be kidding me. You are ‘libeling’ yourself on her much better than I ever could.

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  354. Well, I’m a 54 year old woman if that’s any use.

    these personal attacks are opening you up to observation Chris. I had a hunch that you needed to sort things out before embarking on this venture and I may well be right. I’m on your side by the way, I don’t like lamaism and the abuse described.

    I’m not contradicting those facts, but you seem to have loads of hatred and I can well imagine you get the screaming habdabs easily.

    All I’m saying is that to be taken seriously in this venture you need to come across as more together than I suspect you are.

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  355. Notice now the patronizing, male chauvinist, misogynistic ‘sweetie’ from our psychologist. And more than likely a male psychologist, but there are so many women ‘identifying with the aggression of male chauvinism, the “new feminists” one would know, more of the ‘detached ‘” moral relativism, “it’s all crap’ right, very helpful to the people you would be ‘counseling or helping’ or may you pride yourself in being in one of the ‘corporate addictive counseling centers’ where most of them are filled with addicted Lamaists and ‘thought police’ Zen Buddhists, the new Ecofascists. The Dalai Lama had to catch up with Joan Halifax on that one, and boy they always win out , these Lamas, you have Joan Halifax, writing articles about sexual abuse in Buddhism, and teaching with Tsoknyi r, and Tsoknyi r is the number one enabler of Sogyal and deceiver that he is teaching Dzogchen, like Sogyal does, to ‘lure the psychologists’ and before they know it they have offered up their critical reasoning, good sense, and sanity, along with their money, labor and time. And, they get to be pimps for the Lamas, or at the least look the ‘other way’ everyone of them breaking their oaths as psychologists to report abuse of individuals , particularly abuse by an ‘authority figure’ but they all now see the Lamas as perfect of course and because they ‘offered up’ their critical reasoning along with their money , labor and good sense, they are trapped in a cult.

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  356. NB: i keep answering these posts one at a time as they just come up individually, but having seen the breadth and scope of them by scanning i find it a bit disturbing. So, psychologists are all working for the lamaists?

    You appear to be accusing me of enabling lamaists to access consorts because i studied psychology and worked in a locked hospital for criminally insane people for 2 years in the 1980s…lots of assumptions.

    scratch the surface and what do you find? Someone with a grudge Chris? I didn’t know anything about lamaism between 1983 and 85, but here you are spreading libel. care to continue with this or are you giving too much away already?

    May I reiterate…I have been an atheist since 5 years of age, I meditated as part of a healthy lifestyle. I the early 200o’s I met lamaism, got sucked in briefly then came to my senses…..got a problem with that? Or is it a problem with your own anger management?

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  357. Aha! I knew it! You’ve gone back to christianity! So, no bias there…?

    Sweetie, I’ve been an atheist since i was a small child, i think it’s all rubbish, from lamaism to zoroastrianism and everything in between, including christianity.

    Maybe Sam Harris had a lamaist agenda. I don’t…has it sunk in yet? I think it’s ALL crap!!!!
    No hidden agenda, just sitting watching.

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  358. Instead another Anti-Cult Site, the professional psychology group of ICSA , has recently honored at their seminars Elaine Barker who promoted this moniker ‘new religious movement’ tht has made it impossibly harder to call out a cult for what it is , ‘a cult’ and also gave it ‘religious’ tax free status so they could become Churches, . I mean talk about being schizoid, an anti-cult sites honors a person who ensured that cults would explode and become more prolific and multi-billion dollar corporations? This would be farcical if it weren’t tragic. But of course, maybe it isn’t ‘schizoid ‘ at all, after all, it is good for business, if you are in the business of exit-counseling as psychologists, and an explosion of cults is good for business, You will always have third party payments rolling in.

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  359. There is probably an older group of psychologists, clinically trained, who can and would see through these cults and speak out about it, but they are dwindling now, and will soon be dead, and their voices, in the sea of psychology -lite professionals, a new generation- thanks to these influences pervade and permeate the profession which has now overwhelmed psychology and therapy modalities, would make it very difficult for them to be heard. They would have to be as disturbed by this , as I am, and form a coalition of well-trained psychologists , whose clinical skills regarding cults, and the nature of cults , and the borderline personality disordered symptoms that cult members of Tibetan Lamaism display was clearly seen, i.e. ‘idealized projection’, ‘compartmentalization’ and ‘disassociation’ a ‘black and white’ view of the world, whereby the cult is all good the cult leaders are all good, and anyone that speaks against is “all bad”

    . These cult members of Lamaism are reduced to an infantilized state within there sanghas, similar to the defenses of ‘borderline personality disordered individuals, that is why it is so difficult to reach them as a population, and only a well-trained psychologist, not influenced by these cult forces today could see that. They wouldn’t be defending a profession that has turned a blind eye to all this to remain ‘neutral” while our western critical thinking skills go down the tubes. ?

    Meanwhile the counseling psychology lite profession, have sexualy abused victims come to them for help and they may send their clients for a ‘meditation retreat’ with Sogyal R, where Dan Goleman , whose book on Emotional Intelligence is sitting right up there with Sogyal,and teaching Lamaism worship, and turning a blind eye to his “Masters” sexual abuse for the last almost 40 years? And this psychology “profession” doesn’t care or notice this ? So don’t even dare to criticize my passion about this, when you remain one of the duped ones about what the psychology profession is enabling , Doubly confusing millions of western women and men these days, by their ignorance and blindness and stupidity. Yes they are duped and dumbed down and have lost almost all credibility for me . This would never have happened forty years ago. They would have decried this abuse once they investigated it. These psychologists don’t want to know, just like TBer’s don’t want to know. In fact they are similar in their defenses and are often the same population. No wonder the world is in such a mess , particularly the U.S. when you have ‘helping professionals’ like this.

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  360. And a psychologist, ecumenical, of course, you are, that makes sense, thus the ‘one down’ victimizing comments, about me, ‘your pain’ your ‘anger” (psychologists are programmed to keep people in the ‘one down ‘positions they so love , it makes them feel superior and detached), it also explains a lot about your detached attitude. Psychologists have done more for spreading the explosion of cults by agreeing to the ‘new religious movements” moniker which allowed them all , New Age Christian, Tibetan Lamaist, Hindu Yoga cults , to become multimillion dollar empires, tax free Churches, with NO financial disclosures to anyone, that’s what the”oh so ‘neutral” and detached psychology profession, has allowed to happen in the west. They have compromised any credibility the profession once had, and are now promoting sexually abusing , kleptocracy of spiritual abusing cults all over the world, because they too, as always, want to ‘stay detached’ and neutral. Bullshit. I was of the generation that studied Thomas Szaz. et al,a more radical view of the real nature of the psychology profession. I have no illusions about it either, as you clearly still do. The most conservative , conforming group of professionals about the same level as elementary teacher training , another group that has few exceptions to this rule of mediocrity.

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  361. Oh yes, the superior “I am sorry you were abuse” I am sorry for your pain. Another way to dismiss what I am saying, ecumenical, and make me a ‘traumatized victim’ no ecumenical, you are still the victim, victim of all the programming I am talking about, and our democracy doesn’t have time for passive nihilism that the Lamas and their Hindustani tantra has spread, and yes psychologists are controlled pods of Lamas they all think the Dalai Lama is wonderful, and there are many recruiting psychologists for Lamaism, many of these groups of TBers are psychologists . These people are not trained in really clinical skills anymore, they have new age curriculums in their graduate programs.That started in the 70’s by the way, with the Humanistic movement of Maslow, My internship was a classica clinical rigorous training, and I was being programmed into New Age and Encounter groups within my curriculum, it was being ‘transitioned’ into ‘dumbed down. That is the new generation of counseling psychologists with their ‘marriage and family ‘ licenses , they can do their studies on the internet now. So don’t get me started about psychologists , always the arm of the state , with very few original thinkers and less today.

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  362. Here is Sam Harris, recruiter for Lamaism and Vajrayana a sexually abusive cult of women, out proselytising for the Vajrayana and TB:

    “Recently, they have begun to practice self-immolation in protest. The difference between self-immolation and blowing oneself up in a crowd of children, or at the entrance to a hospital, is impossible to overstate, and reveals a great difference in moral attitude between Vajrayana Buddhism and Islam. This is not to say that Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers couldn’t exist. Tibetans, generally speaking, are not pacifists—nor are most Buddhists elsewhere. In fact, during WWII, the Japanese Kamikaze pilots were influenced by the doctrine of Zen Buddhism. But there are important differences between Zen and Vajrayana that seem relevant here. Vajrayana emphasizes compassion in a way that Zen does not, and Zen generally maintains a more martial and more paradoxical view of ethics.
    My point, of course, is that beliefs matter. And it is not an accident that so many Muslims believe that jihad and martyrdom are the highest callings in human life, while many Tibetans believe that compassion and self-transcendence are. This is what Islam and Vajrayana Buddhism, respectively, teach.”
    – See more at: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/response-to-controversy2#sthash.zXG0bxDJ.dpuf

    Sam neglects the fact that many Chinese children witnessed these self-immolations of the monks and nuns and that these were encouraged ‘martyrdoms’ by the Dalai Lama when he calls them great bodhisattva acts in public and had celebrations for the martyrs , same thing as the fundamental Islamists, who also burn books.

    Of course what people don’t know , is that Sam Harris has these intimate connections through Sharon Salzberg with this theistic vajrayana cult of sexual abuse of women, while he is raving on about the misogyny of Muslims, Sam Harris is probably thought controlled by Lamaism and he doesn’t even know it, he is a ‘pod person’ in reality for the Lamas and is out recruiting for the Lamas, while pretending, at the least to himself, that he is an atheist and a ‘secularlist.

    So the worst part is what they do , these Lamas, to critical reasoning and plain good sense, and get anyone to recruit for them ANYONE can be duped by them. That is why they are so dangerous. And so we are surrounded in fact by fundamentalists, but the Christian and Muslim fundamentalists are the only ones we are focused on, and the Tibetan Lama Hindu fundamentalists are actually the ones taking our culture over and infiltrating by stealth.

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  363. Yes well youv’e made it clear that you don’t take a side, ecumenical, except when it comes to Christianity of course, I think it is very very awful what these eastern religious influences have done to dumb us down and just lump all Christians in with radical , fundamentalist religions, no abilty left to ‘nuance.”

    As soon as I was completely out of the cult of Lamaism, I was able to suddenly relate to Christians again as friends and aquaintances, surprise surprise, and be open to see that there were differences among them again. They weren’t all radical fundamentalist , bible pounding crazies as our controlled media has purposely been programming us to believe. Do you know that Sam Harris, who bashes Christians and Muslims is a Tibetan Lamaist , a student of Sharon Salzberg who is a devoted student of Sogyal, the rabid hunter of sexual partners in his sanghas. But he is out pretending to be non-theistic’ and an atheist, spreading the same ‘secular ethics’ crap of the Dalai Lama , because the Vajrayana allows deception to spread Lamaism far and wide. All his posts are filled with friendly Vajarayana talk, while pretending , maybe to himself , because it is a delusion fostered within TB , to be a non theist while supporting this Hindu Vedic God Worshipping Guru worshipping cult? I did it too. I couldn’t wait to start in with my recruiting rap about the superiority of Vajrayana. That’s what all TBers are literally ‘programmed’ in these sanghas to do, That and deeply programmed to hear and see absolutely nothing bad about their Lamas and Lamaism. No matter what they do. That is the main teaching of the Vajrayana , a cult vow to never see anything they do as wrong, in order to stay on the ‘fast track ‘ they pretend will lead to enlightenment.

    Some Christains I know, would make western Tibetan Buddhists look like the kindergarteners and infantilized ,ignorant, and noncompassionate ones that they really are, while pretending to be superior and oh so much more compassionate (in their heads!) , Christians and their intellectual understandings, and compassionate action to help people, far surpasses any Tibetan Lamaist I ever knew and particularly any Lama I ever knew, who are teaching people to actually take the passive stances of New agers, whom they directly influenced, by all ‘looking narcissistically within’ for the ‘divine’ and not taking a stand on anything anymore. I mean talk about how to destroy a democracy! They are actually here to destroy democracy because they don’t want people to be critical thinkers or have freedom of speech, they burn books remember ? So sit back ecumenical and watch the show, that’s what all TBers are trained to do, it’s all an illusion, Yeh right, while these lamas and other Hindu gurus, were lobbying our political institutions, and making billions from us , and mass infiltrating culturally into our society to TAKE IT over, while they were telling us to navel-gaze.

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  364. Oh dear…so now psychology etc is ‘soft science’? So what do you imagine the cult leaders are using against the hypnotised devotees? why, it’s a knowledge of people control, which in itself is wrongly applied psychology and behavioural science.

    Not all these psychology bods are tb cult pushers…I’m a psychologist and I’m an atheist. Could you have a bias about some lack of help received by the ‘soft science’ profession?

    I’m sorry you were abused. The people who did that were wrong. Decent humans don’t behave like that.

    But don’t let your personal pain explode in your quest to bring these losers to justice.Keep your head, or people like me who dislike cults will be turned off. You need to gather support, not alienate.

    My comments about the chinese regime seem to have upset you. It’s not racist to dislike the chinese regime if liking it means one agrees with the torture of many chinese people….today the good news is that the ‘re education camps’ are being closed down as china becomes more relaxed. Please don’t become another hard ‘no arguing with me, can’t see other viewpoints’ type who is on the way to behaving like a hard line regime in your quest to out these rapists.

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  365. PS: from the age of 5, when I threw the family bible in the fire, I knew christianity was not for me…nobody conditioned me in that! My mother was a ‘lipservice’ church member and my dad never even gave religion a second thought. I’m a born atheist. That’s why the original buddhist writings interest me. They speak of humanity and to humanity. Nothing more.

    Is this talk romantic enough for you ?

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  366. As for DI following me ? You are imagining things, I thing that DI is simply reacting to years of being fooled by all the Tibetan Buddhists who came on here , seemingly exposing Sogyal’s abuse, but when the ‘roots of his abuse’ were exposed, they all, without exception, ran for cover back to their Lamas. That’s it;.

    And I believe he could hear what I was saying, because he wasn’t a Tibetan Lamaism; their ears are blocked, their eyes are blinded by the Lamas, purposefully over the years, because of their cult-control inside their sanghas. He was also open and not conditioned by New age bullshit , influenced by this TantricHinduVedicLamaism, because of decades of dealing with them, to actually hear what I posted, and I am very grateful for that. There is no anti-cult site in the west that has been able to hear this, because they have all been conditioned by Dalai Lama ‘Santa Claus” memes in western political infuences and the counseling psychology professions who needed another ‘trick in their bag of tricks’ called ‘mediation’, I bet they are recruiting and leading more people into TB these days, than anything else, thanks to there being purposely duped by the Tibetan Lamas. We now know that psychology really is a ‘soft science’ as is neuropsychology, two of the most duped professional groups that are having a profound influence on spreading this cult of Lamaism in the name of “mindfulness training”. And they don’t even know it . They are another group we might question why we would go to them for advice or help anymore these days since they could be so easily thought controlled themselves and are actually perptuating a sexually abusive cult and don’t know it.

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  367. Hahaha! Brilliant!
    I regard china in the same way as north korea, russia, old cambodia, burma, etc etc…it’s just that the china element is relevant to the tibetan one and the rest, well, maybe not so much.

    As for the christian question…anyone who believes that stuff is no different from those believing the tb stuff, shamanism, etc….anyone who knows that the tribes of the steppes and tibetan/mongolian plateau were the same people who walked across the bering strait into north america will instantly see the same culture developing in different ways after the division of populations.

    In short, it’s all related by a common theme…people, their needs and hopes. That’s what makes cults. Without those there would be no inroad for cultish abuse.

    So, enlighten people about what makes these cults tick, strengthen people in ways that will prevent them being taken in by nonsense and let’s stamp out all the claptrap, tb and the rest of it!

    So, people on this site have been emotionally and sexually abused, leaving scars that show very clearly in some of the bitter anger. That’s fine if it’s transformed into action preventing others suffering the same.

    It’s all been said..and going round in circles makes an interesting Saturday for boring people like me but I’m not your target…remember, I think tb is crap as well…so, how about a constructive plan of action to get the word out there? (without becoming another cult in the process! haha!)

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  368. PPS: also, in your very angry and disjointed attack on me earlier, you say about ‘do we need to be looking at human behavioural science instead?’….’absolutely not’ …

    why? are we now to deny that we are humans of the homo sapien variety as opposed to heidelbergiensis or neanderthalis? Do we now deny our chemical and genetic base, something from which the whole universe is constructed?

    Aha! I detect a lack of courage to face up to being that insignificant bipedal anthropoid with a big opinion of himself. tut tut.

    To illustrate, a number of years ago I thought I’d teach a meditation class as I’ve been meditating for 35 years. So, after advertising , i got some takers, a great bunch who seemed keen to learn basic breathing and insight. After 6 months, they were openly discussing my ‘powers’ and attributing nonsense to me. I quit when the new age stuff started to get stuck and in my last class the text was the kalama sutra .

    In short, my meditation class was in danger of becoming a ‘cult’ against my will, due to the needs of the attendees. I have never attempted to have another such class…..human behavioural science? Without some knowledge of it one knows nothing about oneself, others, or cults.

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  369. And ecumenicalbuddist, your comment , ‘everything has the potential to be a cult, or is a cult’ is the exact excuses being used to NOT look at what are reall cults today, that are dangerous to people, It is the same ‘relativism’ that has permeated our society, in no so small part , because of these New Age HIndu Vedic influences,. I also suggest that you look at your posts and inferences about China , and Christianity and really ask yourself, is this really coming from you? Or have you been conditioned by other forces , because I find the anti-Chinese and anti-Christian stance a knee jerk reaction throughout the country , directly because of these influences infecting youngers generations purposely. This has been a really ‘venomous and sensational result that has undermined our societies, and made us react in irrational memes, that serve to prevent us from digging deeper into things, that’s the purpose of ‘planting knee jerk reactions” to get us to be irrational. Not exactly Buddhist in nature.

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  370. The racist Chinese bashing, in ‘ecumenicals’ post, is second nature now to all students of TB and is directly a result of the years of conditioning inside these sanghas where I can give you posts of really ‘venom and sensationalism’ all over the internet ,over the last two decades,posted by these ‘compassionate’ and ‘ecumenical’ Tibetan western BuddhistLamaists, (probably why this cult of Lamaism has stupidly been protected in the U.S. and encouraged, because of its poltical alignment) and of course western TB’s are completly ignorant of how their ‘precious ones have been rebuilding their monasteries in China since the 80’s always ‘hedging their bets) and this is in no small part ,because now they have been influenced by the Dalai Lama’s racism and rants, as he influences every single sect and sangha in TB to HATE another nation, to gain sympathy for his cause. That alone should tell you he is no real student of the Buddha’s teachings. . and this was not occurring in these sanghas, until he become the terrible influence within these sanghas over the years when he literally ‘took over’ all the sects. . Partly because this second generation of Tulkus all grew up in Nepal and India, where he influenced them in a way the Kagyus and Nyingmas were not influenced in vast Tibet where they were in intersect conflict with the Dalais and referred to Lhasa as ‘political Tibet’ or Ur, where there was always a more brutal treatment of the people, and more intrigue and poiltics. The Dalai Lama has actually been disasterous for both the west AND Tibetan Lamaism, and will bring it down in the long run, historically.

    And as for Sharmapa’s comments? Unbelievable, not only because he reveals the true sexual couple practice nature of TB, but also because he is perpetuating such ignorance, Mahayana and Hinayana is Hindu based? And the Vajrayana is not? Does he even know about the Chan streams of Buddhism that came from China, and Korea, the latter who brought the Mahayana teachings to Japan ? TB not Hindu?? When they put a Hindu Sadhu of Tantra , Padmasambhala, on all their thankas, and have a patheon on Hindu goddesss and gods incorporated into their teachings, and these Lamas have all their students worshipping them and prostrating to them as ‘living gods’ just as the Indians do to their Hindu gurus?

    It only reveals how the so-called ‘enlighted masters’ have no idea of history or even what THEY are practicing. But how could they? They didn’t have secular educations , and still don’t. They were asleep in deep ignorance for centuries , kept isolated purposely by their own lineages of Lamas, who didn’t want any ‘secular’ influences. It wasn’t just their remoteness that caused this.

    That is an amazing quote, by Sharmapa, but we could find thousands of them like these that reveal the true nature of TB Vajrayana is the most Hindu based ‘stream of Buddhism, in fact it is Hindu Tantra with Hindu Gurus on Thrones pretending to be teaching Buddhism. ‘

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  371. “So, it sounds like the usual experiences of Lamaism – where’s your women, where’s your money, clean my temple and cook my meals ”

    You sum it up there, Sankappa. That’s it in a nutshell.

    Every single Lama situation I have been in without fail,falls into that category. They are set up to repeat what happened in Tibet, under the disguise of being “Buddhism”.

    And again , I find the comments by “ecumenical”buddhist, always interesting and pro-lamaist in the end. But I want to concentrate on the usual racism and anti ecumenicalism that is inherent in Tibetan Buddhism , that his post reflects, and has always been there, because again, it is really a Hindu based religion. Inside the sanghas the ‘disdain’ that we were conditioned with, about all Christianity which we were subtly taught was ‘theistic’ delusion, and believed that we were involved with a ‘nontheistic’ religion in TB, when these sanghas are all worshipping and protesting to their ‘little gods’ on thrones, and the Buddha is made into a god/icon, and all the dead lamas, hundreds of them we chanted to and asked for their ‘blessings’ and that we all hoped to go to Atisha heaven , when we died? You can’t get more theistic than Vajrayana ‘buddhism” because it is based on the Hindu-worshipping patheon theisms of India. But the thought control inside these sanghas, is that TB is the superior and nontheistic ‘religion’ and all the others, particularly Christianity is inferior, and is constantly knocked inside these sanghas, while pretending to be to the outside, like the Dalai Lama, “ecumenical’ as the moniker of ‘ecumenicalbuddhist’ implies. Nothing could be further from the truth. And it is only recently that TB, under its new hegemony with DL, is not knocking all the other sects of Buddhism, within its min-sanghas. That was common. And even intra sect knocking, “Oh, she studies with Kalu Rinpoche, you can’t listen to her, if you were a Trungpa student or even practice , they didn’t let other Vajrayana students of other Kagyu teachers practice together the sadhanas, even though they were tantrikas and sadhankas too. So don’t even get me started about the ‘nonecumenicalism” even among themselves and their own sects, inside these sanghas.

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  372. OK chaps, I just watched it.
    anything that prevents people being duped and subsequently abused is fine by me.

    I loved the bit where they say that the dalai lama has no power in his prayers to help people affected by the flood disaster….no creature on the planet can alter physical manifestations of disaster or affective emotion etc by using a few ‘magic words’…in short the concept of prayer itself is no different to any other nonsense dreamed up over the last 40,000 years of sociological and psychological development. Priceless.

    So, we all align with the views of the TRUE enlightenment Education Foundation, fine enough as they are hoping to protect innocent victims of abuse. Admirable.

    But, have a think….given the same power as these lamas and indeed other organisations around the world…..would this organisation then later fall prey to human desire and corruption as well? I’m only saying, everything has the potential to become another cult and we humans are great at creating cults everywhere….the cooperative ‘ethical’ bank was one in another realm of human activity, as an example.

    Anything looking for followers is a bit suspicious in my isloated opinion.
    Make strong invulnerable people of yourselves and cults will not exist.

    ‘He has shown us a sign..let us all take off our right shoe’ (monty python’s life of brian) is a bit evident in your personal attack on me earlier , which is amusing. It appears in the statement ‘it was chris who alerted us and these taiwanese buddhists who have shown us the true story’…so let’s all create a new power to follow. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t know this organisation and have no opinion about them. I’m just watching you lift the lighted torch of the campaigner, like so many others before you. I used to be one of those!

    Before going off at me again DI (which on investigation, may open up a raw nerve or two on your own part), bear in mind that I was duped into this nonsense myself after 2 bereavements left me vulnerable and I suddenly came to my senses in the middle of a ‘tantric empowerment’ sitting in a hall full of people who were wearing a flower on their head and sipping honey off a spoon! haha!

    Empty ritual and pretend ‘gods’ need to be left behind for personal development to be made (note I didn’t write TRUE personal development).

    I’m with Sankappa on this one , even though my position is more akin to a mild mannered and much less angry richard dawkins. X

    PS: Let the angry rebukes begin….

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  373. If you think that The True Enlightenment Education Foundation might be exaggerating the claim of tantric couple copulation as the main practice for “enlightenment” on the Tibetan “Buddhist” path, then here’s something very current (Nov. 2013) from one of their top dogs, The Sharmapa, Shamar Rinpoche:

    In the Vajrayana, once you have become a highly qualified Vajrayana practitioner – like Tilopa or Naropa – then being in union with a qualified female practitioner in special retreat conditions is actually the key practice for enlightenment. Therefore, this is one of the main reasons why the Theravada tradition does not accept the Mahayana and Vajrayana as genuine Buddhist paths. They also tend to regard Vajrayana practices as being Hindu in nature.

    The whole interview makes for interesting reading: http://www.shamarpa.org/index.php?id=6&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=60&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=5&cHash=bbbf9eed27

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  374. We note that you were really not addressing the issue at hand namely Tantric TB. Thanks for your candour. You projected your anger against the Chinese Regime onto a Taiwanese Buddhist group. You do it pretending to be laid back and objective. You have a visceral hatred of a variety of Religions, yet Chris who is an open book you regard as getting it wrong?

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  375. PS: I spent 5 afternoons in a London prison cell after protesting against the Chinese regime in 1999. A friend of mine was beaten by police and hospitalised the same day. I was a regular at the human rights demonstrations outside 10 Downing street . Just so you’re clear about that too.

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  376. Hi DI,
    Thank you for your summation of my comments.
    I think I need to state my position. I loathe Lamaism, Christianity and other organised religions because they all tap into human weaknesses we all have hardwired into us.

    You’re right, I did not look at the video material at all, as I have put up loads of barriers due to propaganda I found masquerading as intellectual discussion in places such as YouTube, that is my bias and I admit it I’m afraid. I’ll likely have time to watch it now.

    As for worrying I might be afraid of looking inward, no worries! I live in a remote rural area where I’m completely removed from looking outward.

    On the sexual coupling front, I have no hang ups at all about that, other than when acts are forced on unwilling partners and for my own part have been happily celibate for many years, the priority being the welfare of my children.

    I guess what really interests me is the venom and sensationalism in Chris’ postings and the lighted torch that has been lifted by DI.

    Sure, Lamaism is nonsense, so are a lot of things, bringing light to the darkness of human behaviour is vital. All things can be used for good or bad and buddha never intended his insights to be used in this way.

    I like the original writings, not the skewed version of things we have today , and in all ‘religions’.

    All great ideas are subsequently messed up by weak people using them for their own ends.

    On the human behavioural issue….heated internet arguments usually restart around this time of year, go on till spring, die off a bit and reheat in early autumn. We are governed by our behaviour patterns and this is just one example. Sorry If I freak you.

    So, ok, go for it, just make sure your motivation is set neutrally and not on the maximum heat…too much passion, high emotion and bitterness is behind a lot of this. To win, you must coolly put it aside or it’s just another web rant.

    I would have answered sooner but replies are not coming to my in box at the moment.

    If you look back previous postings of mine you’ll see you were wrong about me, after all, you don’t know me and emails carry no voice intonation, stress or cadence. Most human communication requires these to be effective and all these are missing from mere email.

    The bottom line is…buddha was asking people to understand themselves and be their own teachers, but humanity has a need to follow and be lazy rather than working it out personally and the result is always the same.

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  377. Well Sheila Shigley (aka Saulan) reckoned that The True Enlightenment Education Foundation is connected to the PRC: http://www.forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.php?f=121&t=113239 hahaha… so, we can safely assume that it’s not then. Remember, according to her, the whole Sogyal criticism was a PRC beat-up and fabrication?

    Taking on board the cultural differences, I think the YouTube clip is pretty straight down the line. What really comes across is a sincere concern for the sexually abused women and warning them about the dangers of Lamaism, as well as concern for the large amounts of money that they are raking out of Taiwan, from donations by the duped. So, it sounds like the usual experiences of Lamaism – where’s your women, where’s your money, clean my temple and cook my meals … all for nothing, of course. Also, wherever there is manipulation and deceit, there is also a spiritual abuse dimension to it. So another overriding concern, being committed Buddhists of authentic Mahayana as they are, and sincere in their aspirations, it is an affront to have these Lama interlopers (masquerading as Mahayana Buddhists), abuse and deceive people in the name of Buddhadhamma. This point obviously resonates with me quite strongly.

    Taiwan is an affluent society, that’s why the Lamas have so much interest in it. Wherever the money is, that’s where they are; never get between a Lama and a bucket of money, as I’ve said before.

    Anyway DI, you’ve had contact with them over a six month period, perhaps you could elaborate a little more on what you’ve found about The True Enlightenment Education Foundation.

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  378. Chris’s remark was accurate.
    I am a Taiwanese and able to read the Chinese texts, and I participated the demonstration out there in Kaohsiung when the Dalai Lama visited Taiwan in 2009.

    The subject and news letters shown in the Youtube are entirely focused on Tantric sexual practice of the lamas and the Buddha Dharma, and there is nothing about politic.

    Everyone can take another review at 2:58~03:01, the film states:
    “It aims to reveal the true face of the Dalai Lama.
    The True Enlightenment Education Foundation will not hold any social education activities that interfere in politics, and it will not accept any form of unreasonable political oppression.”

    You don’t know how it felt to wait quietly outside the assembly building for hours under the steaming hot temperature around 33 C, and it’s very easy to simply utter “Chinese regime.”

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  379. Good to hear from. What is your opinion of the Taiwanese position posted?
    I think you are misreading Chris. She is talking about critical thinking rather than western economic values. But she answer you more directly

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  380. ecumenical buddhist

    You still have to balance it out by looking at the bigger picture, in that although Tantra is basically a corruption of Hinduism,in being a fierce detractor there’s a danger in aligning oneself with the Chinese regime and their propaganda machine.

    I find the comment quite amazing. Looking at the bigger picture which is that TB is not anything else other than Hinduism.
    ecumenical buddhist I am astounded at your response. Are you familiar with Formosa? Otherwise known as Taiwan? What has this to do with the Chinese regime. This documentary was made by a foundation in Taipei.
    I can’t believe you are ignorant of said facts?

    Beware of YouTube films inserted by the Chinese.

    Have you actually watched the video? Or had you taken up a prejudicial position by definition?
    We have had lengthy conversations with this foundation for nearly six months. Please read the material on their site which deals with Buddhism. It is not our focus but they are are clearly Buddhists. Ecumenical Buddhist it seems to me having read your comments you actually are a deeply committed Lamaist when confronted by uncomfortable material.

    This is the road the NKT have fallen into. In their haste to decry mainstream lamaism they have given ammunition to the Chinese regime.

    Again I may be mistaken but please where did you get this idea that this video has anything to do with the Chinese Regime as you call it?

    Neither are the ‘middle way’, both are extremes. Which would you choose?

    Neither as I do not accept your paranoid vision. This a Taiwanese video, and please address the issues it raises rather than absolute and total paranoia.

    Also, when you say ‘this lustful copulation’, there’s an underlying Christian attitude in there.

    Note instead of your usual nearly casual response, take it or leave it is if all your prejudices are pouring out now someone has touched a raw nerve!
    They have nothing to do with Christian beliefs here is their view point as follows:

    The True Enlightenment Education Foundation is dedicated to promoting the inner insight philosophy of Tathagatagarbha.
    http://www.a202.idv.tw/English/Book2013/2013.htm
    Please study the material before making very strange responses which actually reveal someone who has rushed to comment without reflection.

    So, are you implying that you have ‘seen the light’. This is also an organised religion with sexual abuse and corporate empire building behaviour.

    DI is a human rights blog and does not represent any religious viewpoint. The Taiwanese group whose video we have published is not Christian and to imply that this a rejection of Buddhism by a Christian group is absolutely without foundation. What we have seen the light about is the waste of time that has resulted following Lamaists who tell us that the DL is very worried about Sogyal. We now see that there is a massive cover up and it was Chris who alerted us and these Taiwanese Buddhists who have shown us the true story.

    So are many other ‘religions’ …..do we need to look at human behavioural science instead?

    Absolutely not, here we have the key to understanding this consort coupling and abuse of women.

    Just some musings from someone who isn’t that heated about any of this but distantly curious./blockquote>

    I do not buy your detachment I find instead someone who is afraid to look to deeply and is looking for excuses to change the subject.

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  381. Chris, greed, hatred and delusion have always been a big part of the raison d’etre of the West. As I’ve posted before, Lamaism is just reflecting back the worst of our bad habits. It’s the same shit, just wrapped differently, pretending to be something different.

    To say that Lamaism is pulling us down into further moral decay is ridiculous. We would be doing just a good a job without them. What they want though is to get on board, sidle-up to and align themselves with the dominant spheres of political, social and economic influence (as they have always done) so that they can get their “chop”, just like organised religion has always done and will always do.

    Buddhadhamma is about raising us above the dead-end of greed, hatred and delusion, whereas Lamaism is pretending to be Buddhadhamma to infiltrate and deceive to fulfil its indulgent and power aspirations. Buddhadhamma is Lamaism’s Trojan Horse, to get in the back door. That’s the disturbing part.

    To imply that somehow the West has a monopoly on moral integrity though, doesn’t bare any scrutiny, IMO.

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  382. I think that English is not their first language, and a lot gets changed in translation. As for assuming that this is Chinese propaganda, I think you should be careful in not assuming that because they are Chinese speaking that they are pro-communist.

    Is “lascivious copulation” motivation on the Lama’s part a better translation I like that better a bunch of lascivious lamas ‘on the hunt for their sexual partners, while pretending to be humble monks, with their hands out for the cash.

    . And Trungpa always referred to the Vajrayana and its energy as “lust,” and that lust toward the phenomenal world , was the energy that was required as a good practitioner of the tantra using all the emotions, but the meaning of the sexual union lust was always explicit. So that is what it is about. But of course, he was always very honest about what it was, and these other hypocrite lamas hated and feared him for it. But now pretend to all see him as an icon bringing Tibetan Buddhism to the west.

    Its their “Lama Deception” that is emphasized in the film for me and I think you can’t get hung up on the fact that we are now a completely amoral society thanks to all this influences, in other worlds we have totally lost any moral compass at all. Moral is not a dirty word, there is such a thing as every society needing a moral compass. Again, this nonduality being infused , without proper grounding , into mainstream society has created a moral vacuum where now anything goes. That is not good for society as a whole, do you think ?

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  383. You still have to balance it out by looking at the bigger picture, in that although Tantra is basically a corruption of Hinduism,in being a fierce detractor there’s a danger in aligning oneself with the Chinese regime and their propaganda machine.

    Beware of YouTube films inserted by the Chinese.
    This is the road the NKT have fallen into. In their haste to decry mainstream lamaism they have given ammunition to the Chinese regime. Neither are the ‘middle way’, both are extremes. Which would you choose?

    Also, when you say ‘this lustful copulation’, there’s an underlying Christian attitude in there. So, are you implying that you have ‘seen the light’. This is also an organised religion with sexual abuse and corporate empire building behaviour.

    So are many other ‘religions’ …..do we need to look at human behavioural science instead? Just some musings from someone who isn’t that heated about any of this but distantly curious.

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  384. The U.S. and Europe could learn a lot from the Taiwanese, who have had a long connection Chan Buddhism and were not so easy to fool. Chan Buddhism , by the way, is where the stream of Dzochen actually came from, before it was corrupted by Lamaism. and is now being used by the Lamas, such as Tsoknyi R and Sogyal R and many other Lamas who claim to be teaching Dzogchen only to trap people into Vajarayana Tantric Guru-worshipping Lamaism. Many educated people are fooled by this one of many deceptions, used by Tibetan Lamas to ensare people into their fold. .

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