Violation of the Sacred~Western Psychological Perspectives on Sexual Misconduct in the Clergy and…….

Violation of the Sacred

Western Psychological Perspectives on Sexual Misconduct in the Clergy and their Implications for Western Dharma Centers by Joanne Clark

“The pig and the chicken were on their way to breakfast,

trying to decide what to have. When chicken said, “Let’s

have ham and eggs,” the pig then replied, “That’s fine

for you. It’s a small donation on your part, but it’s a

total sacrifice for me.”

Anonymous

So it’s time to ask the question again: Are sexual relations between lamas and their students harmful? I’ve decided to keep asking this question until women begin to be heard. Now is a good time to ask, because comments from BellaB continue to support the following key points:

1. Sogyal Lakar does have multiple sexual relations with his students; and

2. Bella and Sheila both see no harm in these relations.

In the absence of any official response from Sogyal or Rigpa, we must assume that Bella’s comments are the official response. Bella is particularly clear about those two points in her responses to the bulleted summery which I included at the end of my last post: https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2012/05/31/is-sex-between-a-spiritual-teacher-and-students-harmful/

https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2011/07/12/adult-ritualised-sexual-abuse-a-contemporary-western-phenomena/

Certainly, in the comment line, neither she nor Sheila deny Sogyal’s right to have multiple sexual relations with his students, nor do they deny that he is likely having those. Bella has also been forthright about an assumption underlying all of her comments and those of Sheila as well. This is the assumption of the elite, which is that the suffering of a minority—meaning those few courageous women who have come forward to speak of their suffering—is insignificant and questionable if it challenges the comfort of the majority. This attitude is quite contrary to the essence of Mahayana Buddhism, where the bodhisattva pledges to protect the happiness of every last being in existence. There are no exceptions in this pledge, never a deaf ear to any cry of suffering. Within this mighty outlook, if Sogyal’s style of teaching and sexual gratification causes suffering for even one woman, then it is unsafe for all women.

So what do we mean when we talk about suffering here? Rigpa students frequently refer to suffering in the light of the necessary discomfort that sometimes comes from spiritual growth. This is how they justify Sogyal’s sometimes harsh, sometimes unorthodox methods. Of course, this is true. Once we embark on such a grand spiritual path as the Mahayana, there are bound to be obstacles and difficulties. Certainly, we embrace those short termed sufferings for the sake of long term happiness and there is no trouble in that outlook.

However, that is not the suffering we are talking about here. The suffering I refer to here is trauma. In fact, the women who suffer from sexual abuse within a religious setting frequently struggle to even continue on the spiritual path. Many of them in fact turn away from religion entirely. For many of them, even the name of God or reference to their place of worship will trigger painful and intolerable memories and so it is avoided (Rauch, 2008).

Much of what psychologists know about this sort of trauma comes from studies done on clergy sexual misconduct. Buddhism is still relatively new in the west and I admit that literature specifically addressing the harm caused by lama sexual misconduct is lacking. However, the features of clergy which make sexualizing clergy/parishioner relations harmful are similar to features of Buddhist spiritual teachers. In this way, one can conclude that the harm caused by sexualizing the clergy//parishioner relationship is likely to be no different than that resulting from sexualizing the lama/student relationship.

In fact, there are more similarities than dissimilarities between clergy and Buddhist spiritual teachers. Both are seen as leaders of a religious institution and both give regular sermons/teachings. Both are in positions of power and authority. Both tend to the spiritual needs of community members, frequently in very close ways. Both have the role of fiduciary care, which means placing the needs of their parishioners/students before their own. Both play roles in major life events, such as funerals, births, marriages and religious holidays. Both frequently counsel and advise parishioners or students.

Of sexual misconduct by spiritual leaders, Simpkinson (1996) writes:

“Despite the lack of reliable figures and the misconceptions, most professionals agree that the problem is far-reaching not only in Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish congregations but in Buddhist sanghas and Hindu ashrams as well. Abuse by spiritual leaders is nondenominational, and the dynamics between clergy and parishioners, between gurus and devotees, between spiritual teachers and students, bear striking resemblances to one another. From profiles of the perpetrators and victims to the impact on the spiritual communities and their ways of dealing with the situation, clergy sexual malfeasance is an ecumenical reality, one that has probably been with us as long as civilization and one that is not about to go away.”

A decade later, in a 2008 study on the prevalence of clergy sexual misconduct, Garland and Chaves (2008) reported, “Overall, 3.1 percent of women who attend religious services at least monthly reported being the object of a sexual advance by a clergyperson or religious leader in their own congregation since turning 18; 2.2 percent of regularly attending women reported a sexual advance from a married leader that did not lead to an openly acknowledged relationship.”

Within this context, I suggest that we in western Buddhist communities need to begin to view ourselves as part of a larger, societal problem. In the same way that religious intolerance and hate crimes can be addressed in powerful ways through interfaith exchanges, this discussion as well can be better addressed within an interfaith context. I believe that it is time for the closed, secretive and separate components of these problems to be opened up and aired within mainstream western societies. These problems are not religious; they are societal. Church communities are currently assessing methods for insuring safety within their congregations. Dharma centers would certainly benefit through joining these efforts.

Decades ago, Rutter (1989) advised that students will be better protected only when spiritual teachers become more aware of the harm which these sexual relations can cause and when they cultivate greater empathy for those students. While I can do nothing more than the Buddha himself to assist Buddhist teachers at becoming more empathetic, I would like to assist lamas at understanding the strong risk for harm in student/lama sexual relations. While I am no expert myself in these matters, most of the articles I quote from are written by professionals who have expertise both in counseling victims and in clinical research. I assure BellaB and Sheila that the articles I quote from are not the mere opinions of a few individuals but the substantiated findings of most professionals.

So what is meant in western psychology by the term “clergy sexual misconduct?” Psychologists identify three key reasons why sexualizing the clergy/parishioner can be called misconduct. These are: 1. The power imbalance; 2. The presence of fiduciary care; and 3. The violation of necessary boundaries in the relationship.

The imbalance of power in these relationships is the most important consideration. Because clergy, like lamas, are in strong positions of power and authority, it is questionable whether any clergy/parishioner sexual relationship can ever be consensual. The parishioner is less able to refuse because of the authority invested in the clergy. In western psychological and legal perspectives, this constitutes a potentially abusive situation. (Faith Trust Institute, 2008; ALEPH). Without consent, sexual relations are at great risk of being nothing more than sexual assault. In the literature, there are many stories of victims who are confused about their right to refuse the sexual advances of their clergy. Many of them speak of being unable to view these sexual advances as they would the advances of other men.

I suggest that the power imbalance within the lama/student relationship is even greater than that in the clergy/parishioner relationship. In Buddhism, students are instructed to view the lama as perfect, as a Buddha. Despite the fact that this instruction is meant only for tantric practices, it is commonly fed to students soon after they walk in the door of a dharma center. Even outside of tantric practice, students are frequently instructed to see the faults of the lama as faults in their own perceptions. Sogyal refers to his teachers as “masters”—and his students, even beginning students, refer to him in the same way. Indeed, the word “master” holds a strong meaning of power! How could a woman refuse the sexual advances of her “master”? Certainly this fact alone places any sexual advances made by Sogyal precariously close to sexual assault.

There is a quote from the scriptures frequently quoted which reads that if you view the lama as a human being, you will receive the blessings of a human being, but if you view the lama as a Buddha, you will receive the blessings of a Buddha. Indeed, who wouldn’t choose to view the lama as a Buddha in order to receive the higher blessing? And who would refuse sexual advances from Buddha himself?

Another complication which increases the risk for abuse in clergy/parishioner sexual relations is the assumption of fiduciary care. This means that within their roles, it is assumed that clergy will place the welfare of their parishioners first and not seek gratification for themselves. Clergy sexual misconduct occurs when the clergy’s own sexual gratification interferes with his responsibility for the welfare of his parishioners. Many victims speak about their feelings of confusion because they trusted that the clergy had their welfare uppermost in his mind. Many victims are unable to view the situation realistically as one of simple sexual desire because of their belief in the clergy’s unselfish motives.

I suggest that fiduciary care is even more relevant in the context of a Buddhist lama. Lamas pledge to put the welfare of others before their own. This is a central feature of Mahayana Buddhism. Students become sexually abused because their expectation that the lama will put their needs first impairs their ability to judge his sexual advances. This also leads to a deep betrayal of trust when students realize that their lama is putting his own sexual gratification before their needs.

The third feature of clergy sexual misconduct listed above, the feature of boundary violation, is also prevalent in lama/student relations. In fact, lama/student relations have the potential of becoming far more intimate than those between clergy and parishioner. This is because the very nature of Buddhist practices, particularly those of meditation, Dzogchen and tantra, is very intimate. These practices frequently involve deep, personal change. In addition, practices of tantra frequently involve visualizing the merging of the lama’s mind within the student’s mind. One could argue that these practices alone constitute a boundary violation! Certainly, they require a very high ethical standard on the part of the lama. In Buddhism, as in all religions, boundaries are protected through ethical restraint. Sexual boundaries in particular require this.

In our discussions here regarding Sogyal, the question of his methodology in “working” with students is frequently raised. Not only does this methodology involve a huge power imbalance, as students give Sogyal permission to harass and insult them whenever he sees fit, these harassments and insults are said to “work” on a student’s problems on a very deep way. Students frequently report very deep experiences of intimacy with Sogyal resulting from these experiences.

In this way, I propose that sexual relations between a lama and his/her student certainly have comparable, but likely even more, risk for harm than similar relations involving clergy. This is further complicated by the difficulties inherent in moving from a culture grounded in a faith-based religion to Buddhism, which is not faith-based. Redefining the sacred without the central figure of God is unknown territory for a western student of Buddhism. Navigating this territory requires clear guidelines and boundaries. It can be expected that sexualizing the student/lama relationship could confuse these guidelines and boundaries and place the student at risk.

I believe that it is also imperative to view lama-student sexual relations in the west in the context of the Judeo-Christian culture within which it occurs in order to obtain a full understanding. For example, Christian doctrine generally prohibits sex outside of marriage. While this prohibition might not apply to a western woman’s own personal, more liberal ethical standards, it is likely to play a role, albeit unconscious, in shaping her expectations of a spiritual leader. Many of the victims described in BTT report that they never had a sexual expectation of their relationship with the lama. It took them completely by surprise.

In fact, much of the harm resulting from sexual relations between a Tibetan lama and his/her students comes from deep confusion. The relationship crosses personal boundaries in ways that cloud the student’s spiritual orientation. In a qualitative study of 46 adult victims of sexual misconduct by clergy, Garland and Argueta (2010) observe that most of the participants in their study admit to feeling confused over accepting advances made by the clergy that they would never accept from a man outside of the church. These participants also describe confusion making them particularly vulnerable during the beginning days when the relationships first turned sexual. They didn’t expect clergy to use sexually explicit language, for example, and yet found ways to accept the behavior. They reported that they had no cognitive categories in which to understand sexual advances from clergy, so they contorted the truth in ways that they would never do in relation to an ordinary relationship.

The risk of confusion is even greater for western students of Buddhism because Buddhism in the west is unchartered territory. Westerners come with assumptions from a judo-Christian upbringing and Tibetan Buddhist lamas come with assumptions from a Buddhist, Asian (and patriarchal) upbringing. It seems that both sides expect the Buddha’s teachings to somehow resolve all the confusion. Both sides however need to better understand their own cultural biases in order to approach those teachings in more honest ways.

For example, women within a Judeo-Christian culture frequently have strong associations of guilt around issues of sexuality and frequently respond with self-loathing when their sexual boundaries are crossed. These are not emotions with which Tibetan Buddhist lamas are at all familiar. In fact, HH Dalai Lama responded with shock years ago when he first learned of the western phenomena of self-hatred. This is not a situation which occurs amongst Tibetans. As a result, lamas are in unchartered territory in terms of fully understanding the damage that can occur when sexual boundaries are crossed with western women, when the sacred becomes tainted in a woman’s perspective.

Rauch (2008), who is herself a survivor of sexual abuse in a religious setting and a longtime therapist of victims, gives a strong statement on the damage that can result when sexual relations intrude on the sacred:

“Sexual abuse in a religious context is a double breach of sacred trust and space. It occurs when sexual activity is forced or coerced by a person in some position of power on another. It is not necessarily direct physical contact. Sexual abuse in a religious context can include voyeurism, exposure to sexual material, inappropriate and erotic sexual conversations, or sexual exposure in the context of a religious activity. But it is an act of aggression nonetheless, whether one is forced or seduced, whether it is painful or pleasurable.

“Sexual abuse by a member of the clergy in any religion is tantamount to incest. No violation other than with a blood relative combines such profound intimacy with intense betrayal. The breach is all the more serious because the abuse is under the auspices and in the company of the sacred. Circumstances and context can differ whether the victim is a child or an adult. But, for anyone violated in this manner, regardless of age, the malevolent exploitation of trust, dependency and affection leads to a mind-numbing decline into alienation, secrecy, and spiritual chaos.” (Ch. 6)

In a review of the literature and a conference on clergy sexual misconduct organized by the Interfaith Sexual Trauma Institute, Wells (2003) observed: “The preponderance of evidence that the trauma of clergy sexual abuse is seriously debilitating is overwhelming.” And later, he summarizes, “clergy sexual abuse is a trauma that denudes the soul of the basic sense of trust that is so needed in the quest for spirituality. Contamination of the sacred rituals is the result of the one who pledges his faith to God, only to be betrayed by his representative through sexual abuse… [and can] lead the victim parishioner into experiences of no understanding, no connection, and no peace. Oftentimes, the victim is rendered stuck in the stage of spiritual development that he or she was in when abused.”

Indeed, the greatest tragedy of all with these instances of sexual misconduct by both clergy and Buddhist lama is the fact that the trauma reaches into the spiritual wellbeing of the victim. In this way, it has the potential of causing immeasurable harm. I suggest that clergy, lamas and all spiritual leaders have an even greater responsibility for restraint than psychologists, doctors or teachers. They certainly have a greater responsibility for restraint than ordinary men or women! This is quite contrary to Sheila’s comment that having sex with one’s lama was no different than sharing a nice meal with him!

Certainly in the comment line it seems that concern over the sacred is often ignored. Rauch (2008) asks: “with all the books, documentaries, discussions and arguments, why had no one spoken of the impact of religious abuse on the soul? Why did it seem that people who suffered some form of violation in God’s name struggled not simply in their psyche but beyond that—to the core of themselves? How do people recover what is most essential to who they are, within whatever one calls the soul?” (Ch. 1, Introduction).

Indeed, Hopkins (1993) notes that when the person of the clergy is seen to embody the divine, this intensifies the relationship such that the betrayal of trust can become even more devastating for the victim of sexual abuse. In many Buddhist tantric practices, the lama is visualized as a deity—he actually does embody the divine, at least in the minds and imaginations of practitioners. Once the relationship moves into such a realm of the sacred, student/teacher sexual relations can never be compared to ordinary sexual relations and the risk of harm and abuse is greatly increased.

Simpkinson (1996) writes “Sexual abuse by spiritual leaders violates trust, devastates lives, and tears communities apart. No denomination or tradition is immune.”

Rediger (1990) writes:

“Victims of clergy sexual abuse suffer consequences most nearly identified as betrayal, grief and loss, shame, confusion, rage, and contamination. Betrayal, because the pastor-parishioner relationship has been violated. Grief and loss, because this pastor can never truly be a pastor to this person again . . . Shame because sexual intimacy with clergy, whether instigated or suffered, [italics added] often implies in the victim’s mind the grossest of moral turpitudes. Confusion, because intimacy and spirituality are so closely related . . . Rage, because of the power imbalance . . . Finally, contamination, because the victim’s life is now clouded and distorted by titillating rumor, loss of reputation, voyeuristic sympathy, and mistrust, along with loss of care and support he or she has a right to receive in the church. (pp. 28-29)”

In a comprehensive review of the literature and study of 149 victims of sexual misconduct by physicians, therapists and clergy, Disch and Avery (1998) conclude, “the results underscore many findings of other studies: sexualized abuse of power by professionals can have highly negative effects on the victims, whatever the practitioner’s discipline. Loss, emotional turmoil, suicidal depression, isolation, low self-esteem linked to shame and self-blame, mistrust, and relationship difficulties are so common as to be almost predictable.”

As I dig deeper into the literature, I discover how church congregations play their part in allowing the abuse to continue. I discover that the characters of Bella and Sheila are not unknown in the dramas within church congregations dealing with these troubles. Indeed, their habit of denial and their insidious assumptions that it is the women (and not the lama) who are transgressing is the most common occurrence of all. Women making allegations of clergy sexual misconduct are frequently ostracized and demonized in ways that are reminiscent of years ago when rape victims first spoke out for their own rights (Fortune, 1999; Faith Trust Institute, 2003).

So I say to Bella, Sheila and that silent Rigpa congregation—for the sake of all that’s decent, it’s time to hear these women. Their suffering is real. They cannot truly heal until they are heard. It is time to put aside your fears, prejudices, rages and blindness and hear what the women have to say. As Crisp (2010) observes: “Survivors of sexual abuse are frequently met with cultures of silence which make it difficult for their experiences to be acknowledged. Furthermore, many have been subjected to threats and intimidation in efforts to ensure that they remain silent about what has happened to them.”

So please, Bella and Sheila and you others, listen—

“In his statement to the US Conference of Bishops Conference in 2002, Craig Martin, who spoke of being abused during his childhood by a priest known and trusted by his family, said:

‘Gentlemen, I wanted so desperately to be heard. I wanted someone to lis­ten to me. I wanted someone to help me. I wanted to break the silence and despair that was killing me. I wanted someone to hear my story.’” (Martin, 2002 http://www.usccb.org/bishops/martin.shtml as quoted in Crisp, 2010).

Listen—

“As the American legal scholar Susan Estrich discovered:

‘At first, being raped is something you simply don’t talk about. Then it occurs to you that people whose houses are broken into or who are mugged in Central Park talk about it all the time. Rape is a much more serious crime. If it wasn’t my fault, why am I supposed to be ashamed? If I’m not ashamed, if it wasn’t “personal”, why look askance when I mention it?’”(Susan Estrich, Real Rape (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1987), p. 2.4, as quoted in Crisp, 2010).

Bella and Sheila, instead of pointing to the pain, emotional instability and confusion of victims and labeling them as signs of guilt, listen—

“As the psychiatrist and trauma expert Judith Lewis Herman has noted:

‘People who have survived atrocities often tell their stories in a highly emotional, contradictory, and fragmented manner which undermines their credibility, and thereby serves the twin imperatives of truth-telling and secrecy. When the truth is finally recognized, survivors can begin their recovery. But far too often secrecy prevails, and the story of the trau­matic event surfaces not as a verbal narrative but as a symptom.’”Judith Lewis Herman, Trauma and Recovery: From Domestic Abuse to Political Terror (London: Pandora, 2001), p. 1., as quoted in Crisp, 2010).

Listen—

“’In order to escape accountability for his crimes, the perpetrator does eve­rything in his power to promote forgetting. Secrecy and silence are the perpetrator’s first line of defense. If secrecy fails, the perpetrator attacks the credibility of his victim. If he cannot silence her absolutely, he tries to make sure no one listens. To this end, he marshals an impressive array of arguments, from the most blatant denial to the most sophisticated and elegant rationalization. After every atrocity one can expect to hear the same predictable apologies: it never happened; the victim lies; the victim exaggerates; the victim brought it upon herself; and in any case it is time to forget the past and move on. The more powerful the perpetrator, the greater is his prerogative to name and define reality, and the more com­pletely his arguments prevail.” (Herman, Trauma and Recovery, p. 8, as quoted in Crisp, 2010).

So when are the women who have come forward with their suffering going to be heard?

I will conclude with observations from Marie Fortune (1999) who spent three years fighting for a group of women who had been sexually abused by a pastor in a church in the US:

“The situation that arose at First Church of Newburg is in some ways an extreme instance of betrayal of the pastoral relationship. But it is extreme only in terms of the severity of the pastor’s assaultitive and abusive behavior. It is not extreme in terms of the situations he exploited, the methods he employed, the numbers of people he harmed, or the resistance of the church to knowing the truth. In regard to the dynamics that allowed for such behavior, it is a typical case. I chose it (from nearly fifty other with which I have had some association) to illustrate the problem of professional misconduct by a pastor, because it carries within it virtually every aspect of the issue and of the difficulty of the church’s response. It may strike you as so extreme as to be unbelievable. Some of the events were unbelievable; but this does not mean that they are not true. You may conclude that this case is so extreme that it must be an isolated incident; these things simply do not happen in the church. Unfortunately, instances of pastoral misconduct are far more common than any of us would like to believe. They may not be as far-reaching or as extreme as in the Newburg situation, but the damage to individuals and to the church is often just as serious…”

“The church has a choice when faced with such occurrences: It can turn a deaf ear, or it can heed the call of its own theology to attend to the powerless who are victims of its own power. It can keep faith with itself and its people. It can seek to do justice as a means to healing and restoration for all concerned. It can preserve the sacred trust that rests within the pastoral relationship.” (pp. xvii-xviii)

Bella and Sheila and all you silent Rigpa students, when are you too going to start hearing? When are you going to heed your own theology—our theology as dharma students—and ensure that the Buddha’s core teaching— “Commit no harm”– forms the pillar of every Rigpa center? When are we going to preserve the sacred trust that rests within the lama/student relationship?

Congregants grant clergy authority.

Bibliography

ALEPH, 2008. Aleph.org. Breach of Professional Trust: Sexual and Financial Ethics, www.aleph.org/code.professional.htm

Crisp, Beth R., 2010, Silence and Silenced: Implications for the Spirituality of Survivors of Sexual Abuse. Feminist Theology, April 14.

Disch, Estelle PHD and Avery, Nancy, MSW, 2001. Sex in the Consulting Room, the Examining Room, and the Sacristy: Survivors of Sexual Abuse by Professionals. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 71 (2).

Faith Trust Institute, 2008. www.faithtrustinstitute.org/ (follow “About the Issues” hyperlink, then follow “Clergy Ethics and Sexual Abuse by Clergy” hyperlink; then follow “Q&A” hyperlink.)

Fortune, Marie, 1999. Is Nothing Sacred? The Story of a Pastor, the Women He Sexually Abused, and the Congregation He Nearly Destroyed. Eugene, Oregon: WIPF & STOCK.

Garland, Diana R. and Argueta, Christen, 2010, How Clergy Sexual Misconduct Happens: A Qualitative Study of First-Hand Accounts. Forthcoming with final edits in Social Work & Christianity.

Garland, Diana and Chaves, Mark, 2009, The Prevalence of Clergy Sexual Advances Toward Adults in Their Congregations. Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, 48 (4); 817-824.

Lief, Harold I., 2001, Boundary Crossings: Sexual Misconduct of Clergy, Journal of Sex Education and Therapy, 26 (4).

Rauch, Mikele, 2008. Healing the Soul After Religious Abuse: The Dark Heaven of Recovery. Westport, CT: PRAEGER.

Rediger, L.G., 1990. Ministry and Sexuality, cases, counseling and care. Minneapolis, MN: Fortress.

Rutter, P., 1989, Sex in the Forbidden Zone. New York: Fawcett Crest.

Simpkinson, 1996, Soul Betrayal, Common Boundary, November/December.

Wells, Ken, 2003, A Needs Assessment Regarding the Nature and Impact of Clergy Sexual Abuse Conducted by the Interfaith Sexual Trauma Institute, Sexual Addiction & Compulsivity, 10:201–217, 2003.

77 Responses

  1. I meant to say re-traumatisation in counselling? Margaret Forde is an advocate.

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  2. The post above ‘Violations of the Secret’ by anonymous is excellent. I would also add that abusive counsellors/psychotherapists also have a similar traumatic effect on clients who put their trust in them. It is a situation where personal information is divulged and can be used against the client if the need to protect themselves arises. Can anyone please enlighten me as to the purpose of traumatisation?

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  3. Thanks for that deeply balanced comment Sheila, it is very moving!

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  4. DI, thanks. I prefer if you had the courage to go and see the man yourself, who you accuse.

    You keep changing your line. I am willing to meet him on my own obviously, but it is not me who is accusing him, but a lot of women. We just happen to have a forum for those accusations. I will call them again, as I would be afraid of meeting your man as I would be of a mouse! The reason for a delegation is I could invite a number of Buddhists who could address the issues like I am not a monk, I am allowed to…. all that type of stuff I am not clued in about.
    But the bottom line is will they have the bottle to reply?
    You will wait and see, you may have tried a little trick that has backfired!

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  5. DI, thanks. I prefer if you had the courage to go and see the man yourself, who you accuse.

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  6. “Bella, you say: “He does NOT abandon anybody.”
    How do you know this?”

    I have been around enough many times to see it. He is here to help sentient beings, he has hundreds of students.

    People leave Rigpa. SR is not sending people away.

    I know a Tibetan Buddhist group. The lama has some dozen students and is very strict with them. The rest of the people who are not strictly his students, he makes a clear distinction with – and is not as generous with them. I can see that there is a completely different atmosphere there.

    There is the monastery of Penor Rinpoche, who also invited anybody to stay. No matter if they were there for 2 years or the whole life. Everybody was welcome. It’s better to have 2 years of Dharma than not at all in your life. Then there are more strict monasteries who carefully select students and uphold the high standards and strict rules for all students.

    Both are okay, but I am so happy that Penor Rinpoche wasn’t strict but generous.

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  7. It’s pretty self-evident BellaB is one of the more–perhaps the most–balanced persons here.

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  8. Bella, you say: “He does NOT abandon anybody.”
    How do you know this? I am genuinely confused by your postings and posturings. You are the voice of Rigpa at least on this blog, yet you say you are nobody, not even a proper practitioner, yet here you go, claiming to know stuff no one knows re Soggy. I really hope you come to his attention here, and that he will mark you out as having exceptional devotion. You seem to have little life outside of this thread, so I hope it’s worth it. Poor love.

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  9. Thanks for reminding me it is time to do a post on this year’s retreat, and see if you still want me to contact the centre?

    In case you do not I have just called them and asked them to respond to my request for a meeting. Will keep you posted on the response

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  10. I feel that as if you were trying to impose yourself or your rule over me.

    No we are trying to keep you on the thread and not using our comment section as a dumping ground.
    We give you plenty of space including the right to post material.

    DI, why can’t you just post your response (even with black thick letters) as a separate post?

    so now you are a little concerned about amending your comment, I have done what you asked

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  11. You are extremely naive, since we have released the information on the blog the people in the Centre do not reply to my calls. I was in touch with them in 2009.
    No you raised that issue and have tried to deflect. Get onto your pals there and say I am ready to interview him at any time within reason

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  12. Pema Chodron’s view is very different from DI’s and since she is a respected person in Buddhism, her view is bit of a threat, because it goes against the way these issues are dealt with here. Of course people can have different views, but Pema Chodron is able to explain things with a wider view with the Buddhist teachings at heart than myself. That is why I wanted to include her view to the discussion. Many of us are familiar with the wider view, but it’s difficult to apply, also to me.

    DI Moderation
    Do you get up in the morning and start commenting without thinking?
    We do not want chunks of material left on our site. Is that not clear? You claim to have put it up most likely unrelated to the post or thread at the time. We have not censored it so please do not play the victim. It is up as described here:

    We are deleting this as spam as it is just filling pages with text. This is comment section not a place to dump other peoples ideas. As we have the link we will leave it here: http://www.tricycle.com/feature/no-right-no-wrong

    “Maranatha…” I guess it’s too difficult for someone from purely Christian background. The philosophy is so different. No Heaven, no Hell, no God, no Satan, “no” to extreme views, “no” to demonizing.


    DI Moderation:
    Again it is back to irony. Sheila was on about the Adventists again on another solo run. That was was my joke using theological language, put in secular terms give us a break! I have nothing to do with the posts here which are totally written by Buddhists, ex Buddhist and fanatical supporters of SR like you. I think it is more likely that you come from a Religious background and react to it. This site is a human rights site we do not propagate any faith position, but allow such a free reign. To show you our critical views on Christian groups 2 examples, and lets be ecumenical Protestant and Catholic:

    First Anniversary of Nigel Reid’s claims about the Restoration of Rev Willi Stewart


    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2012/05/13/questions-to-mike-garde-about-the-eucharistic-congress-from-the-sunday-independent-and-his-answers/

    BTW, it’s asked again and again, why SR doesn’t defend himself. Maybe he applies the teachings and avoids extreme views? Christians may remember that Jesus gave his cheek to the enemy and didn’t defend himself. DI will reply to this with some sarcastic comment, no doubt. The main thing is that DI doesn’t know SR at all and refuses to meet him.

    DI Moderation:
    When did we refuse to meet him? I think I said, I saw no relevance to meeting Patrick Gaffney I believe. Perhaps you could arrange a meeting with SR when he is in West Cork at the end of the month. I am willing to bring a delegation to meet him to represent the views of those commenting here.

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  13. Tiger Lily,

    “Pema Chodron is holding an idealized view which can be correct in so far as it goes, when it is relevant to an authentic Master, who will see the student through thick and thin of the journey to fruition. ie in a personal one-to-one relationship.”‘

    How do you evaluate if SR is not going to go through thick and thin with Mimi or with anyone else? He does NOT abandon anybody. Even if students abandon him, he doesn’t.

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  14. Well, there’s one thing DI and I agree on, and that’s that people will draw their own conclusions from reading (whatever’s left of) everyone’s posts.

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  15. DI, why can’t you just post your response (even with black thick letters) as a separate post? Why do you have to edit other people’s (especially mine and Sheila’s) posts? I feel that as if you were trying to impose yourself or your rule over me. It just feels that way.

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  16. I have never been alone with him, but have spoken to him in the presence of his attendant.

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  17. Bella, have you ever had a personal interview with Sogyal?

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  18. “Perhaps you could arrange a meeting with SR when he is in West Cork at the end of the month. I am willing to bring a delegation to meet him to represent the views of those commenting here.”

    I think you can pick up the phone yourself. It’s a local call.

    Hurray, if you do that. Finally!

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  19. Pema Chodron’s view is very different from DI’s and since she is a respected person in Buddhism, her view is bit of a threat, because it goes against the way these issues are dealt with here. Of course people can have different views, but Pema Chodron is able to explain things with a wider view with the Buddhist teachings at heart than myself. That is why I wanted to include her view to the discussion. Many of us are familiar with the wider view, but it’s difficult to apply, also to me.

    “Maranatha…” I guess it’s too difficult for someone from purely Christian background. The philosophy is so different. No Heaven, no Hell, no God, no Satan, “no” to extreme views, “no” to demonizing.

    BTW, it’s asked again and again, why SR doesn’t defend himself. Maybe he applies the teachings and avoids extreme views? Christians may remember that Jesus gave his cheek to the enemy and didn’t defend himself. DI will reply to this with some sarcastic comment, no doubt. The main thing is that DI doesn’t know SR at all and refuses to meet him.

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  20. Maranatha…. Come Lord Jesus!

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  21. “You mean Bella didn’t copy and paste the whole article already? Standards are slipping.”

    I already put the link up in another thread. Nobody bothered to read it, so I copy pasted the parts that fit with this discussion about rules here.

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  22. “Big difference between Chogyam’s students and Sogyal’s though, when you look at Pema and Bella. Wonder why that is?”

    Because I’m 20-30 years younger, because I’m not a serious practitioner like she is: a full time Dharma person, who is also a guide to others. I would consider her as a teacher, which she is. One doesn’t need to be a good practitioner to be anybody’s student., but it doesn’t mean that someone else is not an excellent student. Pema Chodron is a wise woman who has taken the teachings to heart. I’m not.

    I am not a good example of SR’s student. If you want to compare Pema Chodron to somebody, compare her to Patrick Gaffney. They are in the same league.

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  23. Moved to Spillover thread:
    When dealing with the clergy/parishioner relationship,………

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  24. While it in no way affects his responsibilities as a human, which we all share regardless of vocation, I do have to point out that Sogyal Rinpoche is not clergy.

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  25. The examples cited in the article, Drolma, are ones in which someone in the relationship did something *bad,* and that bad thing was not being in the ministry, but taking advantage of someone against their wisdom or against their will. Young priests have been stalked by female parishioners, too; it is absolutely not accurate that only the clergy have power. If a member of clergy misuses *any* power to hurt someone, that is bad (status as clergy, size, personality, knowledge), and if a member of the congregation does the same to hurt a clergyman or clergywoman, that is bad. But it is misusing *any* advantage that is the bad part – not anyone’s particular vocation.

    I can’t agree that clergy always have more power than a parishioner, nor again that clergy/parishioner relationships can never be consensual.

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  26. In fact I can think of at least one example here in Madison where the couple were both in the ministry in one way or another, and either could be at the podium on any given Sunday.

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  27. This is from the OP on this thread:

    “Because clergy, like lamas, are in strong positions of power and authority, it is questionable whether any clergy/parishioner sexual relationship can ever be consensual.”

    I really disagree with this. Many, many pastors are happily married to a member of the congregation. I absolutely reject the theory, “it is questionable whether any clergy/parishioner sexual relationship can ever be consensual.” This is really, truly offbase.

    It’s clear to me we here must come from strikingly different backgrounds when it comes to religion; Adventist preachers actually hold far more power, in my experience, than Lutheran ministers, and yet there are countless happy marriages between SDA preachers and a “parishioner.” My cousin is an utterly happy man, a preacher, married to a lady he grew up with. It absolutely is not abusive simply because he decided to pursue the ministry, and simply because she sits in the congregation.

    Where is this notion coming from, in the first place? It seems to me that perhaps the concept of a celibate Catholic priest forcing himself on a woman (or something like that) is being used as the typical example of “clergy/parishioner” relationships, when there are literally thousands of married couples in thousands of churches across the country in which one (or both!) spouses are in the ministry.

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  28. You mean Bella didn’t copy and paste the whole article already? Standards are slipping. Next time perhaps she could keep us posted of everything she reads, it is always so fascinating to follow her train of thought. Big difference between Chogyam’s students and Sogyal’s though, when you look at Pema and Bella. Wonder why that is?

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  29. Found the link, for those interested in the full article:

    http://www.tricycle.com/feature/no-right-no-wrong

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  30. Re: Pema Chodron interview above. It is not clear from how much you’ve copied and pasted, when this interview took place. If it is referring to the well-accounted meeting several years ago now between the group of Western Teachers and HHDL, then it is old news. BellaB please clarify.
    Pema Chodron is holding an idealized view which can be correct in so far as it goes, when it is relevant to an authentic Master, who will see the student through thick and thin of the journey to fruition. ie in a personal one-to-one relationship.
    I’ve never heard her qualify her statements though by admitting that such a view would be harmful in the case of unskilled Teachers who no matter that they have realized a certain degree of enlightenment by experiencing levels of emptiness and wide-open mind states, are still confused in other areas of their lives.
    I am disappointed by her one-sided point of view.
    I do agree though that when Life with all its unpredictabilities is forcing one to change and to take the Dharma as a skilful route toward achieving that change, the mind can begin to operate outside of the box and discover its true spacious nature and freedom.
    I cannot question that that is what she has discovered in her own personal journey working with her Teachers. But it will not be the same for everybody. The risks are too high to avoid failure and psychological damage both for student and Teacher.
    There have to be safeguards for new students and students who are not in a mutually agreed upon one-to-one relationship, though they may imagine they are.
    She needs to concede to that as she gains recognition as a popular Teacher. She is in danger of leading inexperienced students into the trap of seeing their imperfect Teacher as perfect and becoming stuck in cults.

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  31. I was thinking, “What perfect and timely information,” and then I apply it to my own life and think, “Oh.”

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  32. Bellab, thank you so very much for that — I had never seen it. Going to read it again and again today.

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  33. I would suggest you keep that as a separate issue and put it into the Spillover Thread. If you can’t restrain yourself we will put it there for you.
    Thanks

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  34. Keep it to one link per comment, otherwise it is held up!
    DI

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  35. If it’s relevant to the discussion.

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  36. I’ve just found a website whose content I really really like. May I cut and paste it all and put it all here.?

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  37. Tricycle:Do you feel that the women who are expressing anger toward male teachers are too caught up in their own issues, too concerned with problem-solving, to experience Big Mind?……………..
    Dialogue Ireland Moderation:
    We are deleting this as spam as it is just filling pages with text. This is comment section not a place to dump other peoples ideas. As we have the link we will leave it here: http://www.tricycle.com/feature/no-right-no-wrong

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  38. Tricycle: Is it possible that the kind of strictness…..
    Dialogue Ireland Moderation:
    We are deleting this as spam as it is just filling pages with text. This is comment section not a place to dump other peoples ideas. As we have the link we will leave it here: http://www.tricycle.com/feature/no-right-no-wrong

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  39. Tricycle:There has been a lot of confusion…..
    Dialogue Ireland Moderation:
    We are deleting this as spam as it is just filling pages with text. This is comment section not a place to dump other peoples ideas. As we have the link we will leave it here: http://www.tricycle.com/feature/no-right-no-wrong

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  40. I have always liked Pema Chodron…..

    Dialogue Ireland Moderation:
    We are deleting this as spam as it is just filling pages with text. This is comment section not a place to dump other peoples ideas. As we have the link we will leave it here: http://www.tricycle.com/feature/no-right-no-wrong

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  41. What you’re saying is that only statistics for some people in dharma centers matter, and statistics for other people do not; if it’s going to be a genuinely safe center, don’t we need to look at all the safety issues? This absolutely includes students who pose a problem as well as teachers who pose a problem. Dharma centers are generally open-door places – anyone can walk in. Teachers have to go thru many stages of proving themselves before they ever become a regular teacher for weekly classes, but a new student can walk in the door at any moment, and absolutely no one knows who he/she is. I’m not sure we should make this an issue, but if we’re genuinely improving safety, it will absolutely have to be addressed–whether that’s to say it doesn’t matter, we believe in open-door policies no matter what, or to say that there needs to be some kind of registration policy at the least. There’s nothing to stop anyone at this point from walking into a center and opening fire; there are no door checks, no pat-downs, not even any “no weapons allowed” signs.

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  42. So in this thread we are limited to accusing congregations of fostering abuse, but cannot discuss how to create a safe dharma center? What’s the point of limiting the conversation to the problem, and not including proposed solutions?

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  43. I will recommend to Mike that if you want to discuss the issue of these statistics, that you should do this on the rigpa spillover thread because it is irrelevant to this conversation, which is about the harm caused in clergy/lama sexual misconduct.

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  44. I have to go to lunch, but I agree that it is my turn to provide some statistics on dangers-to-teachers vs. dangers-from-teachers, and I’ll start gathering some. All emotions aside, it’s quite an interesting topic, and I don’t think it would be out of line to include some stats and studies on the issue as a whole (safety in group teaching/presenting environments).

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  45. Students are often better positioned to study the teacher, and get a feel for his/her character over time, than teachers are to study the student. The teacher puts more of him/herself out there, while the student can keep silent and hide his/her personality. I would say that counts as a power imbalance when it comes to safety.

    This imbalance is quite interesting – it crops up so often in the arts, especially music. One person (audience member) studies another (musician), but the reverse often doesn’t happen. Compounding that imbalance is that the musician is often considered to be “on a pedestal,” with all the weirdness that brings to this silent relationship.

    The audience member can often develop a combination of admiration, jealousy, and even eventual obsession–all unbeknownst to the musician.

    Certainly there are also musicians who take advantage of this “focus imbalance” (I like that term better than “power imbalance”) and abuse it, but there are more stalkers-of-musicians than there are musicians-who-stalk.

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  46. Some of your other comments indicate also that you have no understanding of statistics. You say:

    You continuously invoke the image of “student” as a witless child teetering on a cliff, and the teacher as some kind of nasty, scheming adult ready to push him over, and this simply does not represent the vast majority of relationships within Buddhist teaching environments.

    You fill the conversation with images of battered women, sexually abused children, and then when anyones dares comment that the women and children in their own sangha don’t appear to be battered, you suggest they are naive, ignorant, blinded or purposeful spin doctors, or that they somehow thrive on the idea of seeing women in jeopardy.” and

    “At the same time, you’re going to have to stop casting your aspersions so widely that they hit innocent people–in other words, the vast majority of Buddhist teachers”

    I believe that the statistic that I quoted from a study was something along the lines of 3.1% of women have been sexually approached by their pastor in one study. Do you understand percentages? That is a small minority– my post didn’t claim any “vast majority”– its purpose was to claim harm, in even a single case.

    Murder only happens to a small minority– but that doesn’t make it ok. You really have to calm down and stop your grandiose claims.

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  47. It has huge relevance, given that you are striving for safety in dharma centers.

    Group-member fixation on teachers and public figures is fairly well-studied; aside from that, there is the simple numbers issue, i.e. there are almost always more students than teachers in a given class, and therefore, statistically, both teacher and student are statistically at more risk from students than from the teacher.

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  48. Sheila, you say:
    “I believe, statistically, that more teachers are proportionally abused/stalked/harassed by students, than the other way around. I believe it is also statistically accurate that more students experience abuse/stalking/harassment from other students than from teachers.”

    I would like to remind you that, unlike your statistics, the articles I have quoted from above are not based on belief systems. Many of them are peer-reviewed, which means that they are only published after another professional has reviewed the methodology of the study for flaws. When statistics are quoted, they are not “believed” in; they are not a quick idea that has popped into someone’s head, they are not based on hearsay or a few personal experiences–such as your statistics– but are the result of years of work and careful analysis. So you should probably stop that silly tangent. It has no relevance.

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  49. I remember that – I think there was an Adventist component, if I’m not mistaken.

    In making dharma centers safe, we must include teacher safety as well as students safety. I believe, statistically, that more teachers are proportionally abused/stalked/harassed by students, than the other way around. I believe it is also statistically accurate that more students experience abuse/stalking/harassment from other students than from teachers.

    Dharma center safety initiatives will need to take all these things into account. I can’t remember ever feeling the willies over a dharma teacher, but I’ve had a few over a fellow student.

    How do we keep out abusive students? I’m serious about this – are we to the point that in order to attend teachings, everyone has to take a polygraph? Lock the doors, prescreen, and then only allow in “approved” students and teachers?

    I don’t think the level of danger warrants that approach. I think that, unfortunately, life is full of dangers, and we have to keep functioning rather than withdraw from life. Statistically speaking, I am more likely to experience harm by attending a dharma teaching than I am staying home alone, simply by virtue of the fact I am exposed to more people, any of whom may take an unhealthy interest in me. But my own experience with life tells me most people are good, not bad, and actually, over time, I am likely to experience deteriorating mental and physical health if I stay home alone.

    I am proposing that the dangers in dharma centers (or any public teaching environment) be rated as follows, from greatest danger to least:

    1. Teachers endangered by students
    2. Students endangered by students
    3. Students endangered by teachers

    We all want safe dharma centers. I haven’t experienced them as dangerous places, personally, but if we’re going to put up signs, they should reflect the dangers as accurately as possible.

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  50. Yes indeed, Sheila, I agree that smears are a terrible thing. The Australian Lindy Chamberlain just this week completely cleared herself of the murder of her baby daughter– after over 30 years of fighting. This has been a terrible burden that she has had to bear.

    However, that does not mean that murder is ok and that we should make it legal or stop protecting people with our police force and court system.

    Once again, your logic is completely flawed.

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  51. I have been a participating member in four religions in my lifetime: Seventh-Day Adventism, Lutheranism, an indigenous religion, and Tibetan Buddhism. I have never been abused by any of the countless ministers, pastors, traditional leaders, or monastic teachers in my life; on the contrary, they have provided me with loving teachings, emotional support, and friendship. I am not “lucky,” I am the norm.

    I don’t have any problem trying to find ways to help people avoid abusive situations. I have a huge problem with the effort to portray religion as abusive.

    The majority of religious teachers, by your definition, are in a position of power over a student; yet the majority of students of any religion are not abused by any teacher (I’m not sure the same can be said of students abusing teachers – need more data, but it seems almost certain that a larger percentage of teachers have experienced abuse, proportionally, than students, which makes statistical sense).

    The problem I think, therefore, is not a “power imbalance in the religious setting,” unless possibly we include the cumulative power of a congregation over a preacher/teacher, which is often rather large. The root problem, regardless, is a human being treating another human being unkindly.

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  52. “And perhaps maybe the injured students could receive an apology. Is that too much to ask?””

    Drolma, you are simply going to have to stop speaking in generalities if you want this to happen. You are going to have to go to a specific teacher, whom you are accusing by name, and demand a specific apology for a specific student. It’s not too much to ask of a specific person, but it is too much too ask when no names are used and one can’t begin to tell whom you’re asking what.

    At the same time, you’re going to have to stop casting your aspersions so widely that they hit innocent people–in other words, the vast majority of Buddhist teachers.

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  53. I reject the notion of teachers as all-powerful, and students as all-powerless. Risk runs both ways. Many clergy in Canada are looking to unionize because of clergy abuse:

    Reuters News, November 5, 2010:

    TORONTO – Canada’s biggest blue collar union says it will bring the clerical collar into its fold, announcing plans to unionize some 4,000 ministers from the United Church, the country’s largest Protestant denomination…”You need to speak up when there’s a problem and you need to name it … and that problem is clergy abuse,” said Rev. David Galston of Hamilton, Ontario, at Friday’s press conference….Galston said the abuse includes bullying, slander, stalking, harassment,..”It’s the church’s dirty little secret,” said Karen Paton-Evans, who spearheaded the union drive with her husband, and said the church did nothing when he was driven from his job after a parishioner started a smear campaign.

    From the UK:

    New Directions (February 2010):

    Research in the US, Canada and the UK has highlighted how endemic instances of ‘clergy abuse’ are, with a UK poll as recent as this year citing that over 80% of clergy have experienced bullying at some point in their Ministry. This figure correlates with other research.

    In a study of five different denominations (Assemblies of God, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod, Presbyterian Church USA and the United Methodist Church), Dean Hodge and Jacqueline Wenger found that conflict – within the local church or with the church hierarchy – was one of the major reasons pastors left the local church ministry. Pastors in transition, why clergy leave local church ministry, Dean R. Hoge, Jacqueline E. Wenger (2005).

    While we are drawing up a code of conduct to apply to all dharma centers, how about one that includes protection for the men and women who give of themselves daily, and take many risks, to bring us these teachings?

    I would argue that we already have a strong code of conduct serving both students and teachers, and that is the Buddhadharma.

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  54. A beautiful monastery is built in the west near a trecherous cliff. Monastery officials, due to their great faith in the Buddha and their teachers, fail to put up protective fences around this cliff. They fail to warn students of the dangers.

    As a result, some students fall off this cliff and are badly injured. There is an outcry, but this is quickly silenced by sangha members who don’t want this trouble to give Buddhism a bad name. These sangha members say, “I don’t agree with this assessment of most dharma students as ignorant, uncaring and blind.” These sangha members state that any student who is stupid enough to go near a dangerous cliff deserves what she gets. Students have a free choice about that cliff, they say.

    But the outcry continues. The injured students and those who support them say, “But all we’re after are some protective fences and a few written guidelines and warnings. All we want is for every student who walks in the door to be aware of the dangers. And perhaps maybe the injured students could receive an apology. Is that too much to ask?”

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  55. Absolutely, Sheila, you should contact the ministers and therapists that I have quoted from and tell them to stop their sinful work.

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  56. Drolma, you are saying nothing less than that my friends are in an abusive relationship, simply because one of them teaches Buddhism.

    You are suggesting that I promote abuse, that I ignore cries of suffering. You are suggesting that we, the students, are ignorant, unthinking, people who lack basic intelligence.

    I don’t agree with this assessment of most dharma students as ignorant, uncaring, and blind.

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  57. Absolutely, Sheila, for the comfort of the majority and the propagation of Buddhism, we should ignore cries of suffering. Do you think that the Buddha would agree with this approach of yours?

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  58. I just have to add that if a person new to religion read the books you cited, they would likely run screaming from Christianity and therapists, not Buddhism.

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  59. Drolma, I would ask that you apply the same strict admonition towards Dialogue Ireland that you apply to BellaB, give the fact that DI (or its Buddhist expert, or both) said outright that the woman in question was not telling the truth. Evelyn also felt this way, and no one’s accusing Evelyn of viciously attacking anyone.

    It is possible to discuss the veracity of someone’s story without descending into meanness; at the same time, when a human being is accusing another human being of terrible things, it is absolutely proper to question the story, and if you suggest that no abuse story can be questioned, out of respect for the accuser, you again do a huge disservice to women.

    Bella has been exceptionally measured compared to the “Buddhist expert,” who was outright abusive–I believe legally abusive.

    I have said many times that a public forum is NO place for the abused to have a discussion, and that anyone who encourages them to come forward and pour out their soul in public is really off base. I could create a private forum in about ten minutes that would serve these women better than that; the only possible reason for encouraging people to come here to a public forum is to make a big splash and create hysteria. No decent person who thinks about it for more than a few minutes would allow women to come to a public forum where others, and the forum staff *itself,* lay into them. Any *decent* forum would have shut that down *immediately,* instead of letting it go on and on, piling on top of the poster themselves, and then pretending it was all “so cruel.”

    I do not believe for one second that the forum staff has the best interests of women in mind–chiefly after watching their open approval of the Buddhist “expert” and his depraved nastiness toward people here.

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  60. Drolma, I have never said I see no harm in any of these relations, but that I don’t see harm in all of these relations. This is based on personal experience with friends who are/were student/teacher, and are happily married.

    We have to remember that “student” and “teacher” carry a multitude of meanings and cover a multitude of very different relationships.

    Both students and teachers can, and have been, each others’ husbands, wives, fathers, daughters, friends, siblings, elders, “youngers,” peers, uncles, aunts and other close relations.

    In addition to those social relation categories, both students and teachers can be celibate, non-celibate, monastic, non-monastic, semi-monastic, former monastic and future monastic people of both sexes.

    You continuously invoke the image of “student” as a witless child teetering on a cliff, and the teacher as some kind of nasty, scheming adult ready to push him over, and this simply does not represent the vast majority of relationships within Buddhist teaching environments.

    You fill the conversation with images of battered women, sexually abused children, and then when anyones dares comment that the women and children in their own sangha don’t appear to be battered, you suggest they are naive, ignorant, blinded or purposeful spin doctors, or that they somehow thrive on the idea of seeing women in jeopardy.

    If you came at the Lutheran church with a similar approach–citing on example of a male, Lutheran pastor whom you believe had sex with one of the congregation, and then went around to Lutheran churches asking them to initiate a big campaign to put out posters and flyers warning all potential new church members that “sex with Lutheran pastors is considered okay – be aware!” they wouldn’t accept it.

    NOT because they or any other normal, decent person isn’t against abuse, but because you are promoting an environment of hysteria that is disproportionate to reality.

    You are creating an image of Tibetan Buddhism that is unreal, and when anyone speaks up to say your image doesn’t match their experience, you suggest they are “lucky” or naive.

    It’s really insulting to suggest that the thousands, if not millions, of Buddhists in the West are so ignorant that they can’t tell whether their own sangha and teachers are decent or not. I realize you may mean well, but I really think you do a disservice to women overall, painting us as hysterical sheep who can’t judge a situation for ourselves.

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  61. Bella, The only fact that your comments regarding Victoria Barlow prove is that you do not practice loving kindness or compassion. Out of decency, I am asking you to stop that line. Just stop it.

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  62. Bella, there are other studies, which I did not cite, about the great risk of revictimizing those who have been abused in their childhood. In fact, your statements about Victoria Barlow’s vulnerability are true and give very strong evidence WHY sexual relations should be avoided by spiritual teachers. Perhaps, out of kindness to Victoria you could stop that unkind tirade? It proves nothing but why these abuses must stop.

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  63. “It may strike you as so extreme as to be unbelievable. Some of the events were unbelievable; but this does not mean that they are not true.”

    In reference to BTT blog?

    You may not know it, but Finnigan has invented extreme views already in the past which have nothing to do with sex. she is unable to say a true word abut anything, it seems. And if you don’t even know SR, how could YOU ever tell the difference? Finnigan practically doesn’t even know him anymore. They knew each other a bit 40 years ago!

    “So when are the women who have come forward with their suffering going to be heard?”

    I hear the suffering. Just in a case like VB’s claimed rape and so forth does undermine her credibility – and why should I waste my time listening to lies? I’ve stopped doing that and nodding my head in silence a long time ago.

    But, please, tell about the pain. Just don’t tell it through MF and VB, if I may ask?

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  64. “‘People who have survived atrocities often tell their stories in a highly emotional, contradictory, and fragmented manner which undermines their credibility, and thereby serves the twin imperatives of truth-telling and secrecy. When the truth is finally recognized, survivors can begin their recovery. But far too often secrecy prevails, and the story of the trau­matic event surfaces not as a verbal narrative but as a symptom.’”Judith Lewis Herman, Trauma and Recovery: From Domestic Abuse to Political Terror (London: Pandora, 2001), p. 1., as quoted in Crisp, 2010).”

    The trauma occurred in VB’s childhood.

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  65. “So I say to Bella, Sheila and that silent Rigpa congregation—for the sake of all that’s decent, it’s time to hear these women. Their suffering is real. They cannot truly heal until they are heard. It is time to put aside your fears, prejudices, rages and blindness and hear what the women have to say. As Crisp (2010) observes: “Survivors of sexual abuse are frequently met with cultures of silence which make it difficult for their experiences to be acknowledged. Furthermore, many have been subjected to threats and intimidation in efforts to ensure that they remain silent about what has happened to them.””

    So: I do listen. While I question I also listen. I just hope Finnigan had refrained from writing the sad mad blog that twists the story.

    These things I’ve written here are not deny what your sources have written, but to discuss the matter – I wrote down what I new thoughts it rose in me.

    I have to say, also, that the authors didn’t bring anything new in their critic what I hadn’t already thought earlier. Because I already know I would be disappointed by sexual relationship to a lama, since I am still disappointed in men in general, so I wouldn’t even go there, because I would have experienced the scene as is described in the text.

    I don’t know but somehow I see new light in the situation. I can’t explain it. I just feel that there is fundamentally a question of love – and I believe SR loves Mimi and the rest. The love is the goal here. I actually believe it now. Somehow the movie about Trungpa Rinpoche made me see light in the situation. I don’t believe there are evil intentions here. Call me a cult member or what ever, but this inner certainty about it is growing in me. Beyond words, beyond thought, beyond description… I’m sorry if it sounds like misusing a Buddhist scripture but I can’t say it in any other way, what I feel.

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  66. “Why did it seem that people who suffered some form of violation in God’s name struggled not simply in their psyche but beyond that—to the core of themselves? How do people recover what is most essential to who they are, within whatever one calls the soul?””

    I guess the whole Buddhist understanding of the ‘core’ is so different. “The clouds can’t touch the sky.” The core can never be tainted by pain.

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  67. “Sexual abuse by a member of the clergy in any religion is tantamount to incest. No violation other than with a blood relative combines such profound intimacy with intense betrayal. The breach is all the more serious because the abuse is under the auspices and in the company of the sacred. Circumstances and context can differ whether the victim is a child or an adult. But, for anyone violated in this manner, regardless of age, the malevolent exploitation of trust, dependency and affection leads to a mind-numbing decline into alienation, secrecy, and spiritual chaos.”

    We come back to the question: is the lama a Father? In Buddhism there isn’t the Fatherly God in the first place. Christian believers might bring the view of a protective Father and a God in to their relationship with a lama. I have no judgement about this. Maybe it’s a correct thing to do, or the only thing a human can do, but I want to consider the question a bit further. Especially when I saw the film about Chogyam Trungpa, who seems not to allow this attitude to develop in the students in the first place.

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  68. “For example, women within a Judeo-Christian culture frequently have strong associations of guilt around issues of sexuality and frequently respond with self-loathing when their sexual boundaries are crossed. These are not emotions with which Tibetan Buddhist lamas are at all familiar. In fact, HH Dalai Lama responded with shock years ago when he first learned of the western phenomena of self-hatred. This is not a situation which occurs amongst Tibetans. As a result, lamas are in unchartered territory in terms of fully understanding the damage that can occur when sexual boundaries are crossed with western women, when the sacred becomes tainted in a woman’s perspective.”

    This could be true. I guess the women who engage themselves with lamas should be advanced in their Buddhist path and should have abandoned in many aspects the Judeo-Christian world view. It is not an easy task and the shift is more difficult for some than for others. For some Buddhist world view and attitude makes sense quickly and they can relate to the Buddhist view easily while they have struggled earlier in lives with the Judeo-Christian one.

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  69. “The preponderance of evidence that the trauma of clergy sexual abuse is seriously debilitating is overwhelming.” And later, he summarizes, “clergy sexual abuse is a trauma that denudes the soul of the basic sense of trust that is so needed in the quest for spirituality.”

    I once spoke to somebody (Buddhist) about how those people who have been sexually abused as children ever recover from the events? Their personality might be somehow broken, everything is broken. The person, a woman, said: “I guess recognizing the nature of the mind is the only way to heal, or to see the love inherent in oneself, to get in touch with the love.”

    I don’t know if that is true in any sense, but to some extent it makes sense to me.

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  70. “There is a quote from the scriptures frequently quoted which reads that if you view the lama as a human being, you will receive the blessings of a human being, but if you view the lama as a Buddha, you will receive the blessings of a Buddha. Indeed, who wouldn’t choose to view the lama as a Buddha in order to receive the higher blessing? And who would refuse sexual advances from Buddha himself?”

    And in the moment you have sex with the Buddha, you are in another ‘plane’. If you cannot see the lama as a Buddha and yourself as a Buddha too, then the grounding of the whole thing is wrong. Then of course the whole act is far from Tantric Buddhist practice.

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  71. “as students give Sogyal permission to harass and insult them whenever he sees fit, these harassments and insults are said to “work” on a student’s problems on a very deep way. Students frequently report very deep experiences of intimacy with Sogyal resulting from these experiences.”

    Do they? I at least felt completely free and distant from any sense of grasping and ‘intimacy’ toward anything or anybody. All pervasive, directionless love was the only thing intimate in my view. People and the world was there, but in a distance.

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  72. “Many victims are unable to view the situation realistically as one of simple sexual desire because of their belief in the clergy’s unselfish motives.”

    And if they feel flattered by these advances.

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  73. “Clergy sexual misconduct occurs when the clergy’s own sexual gratification interferes with his responsibility for the welfare of his parishioners.”

    Yes, if the sexual gratification is the key issue here. And if there is another motivation? Do we know the motivation? Do we understand sexual issues in Tibetan Buddhism correctly?

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  74. “Decades ago, Rutter (1989) advised that students will be better protected only when spiritual teachers become more aware of the harm which these sexual relations can cause and when they cultivate greater empathy for those students.”

    Yes: CAN cause but do not automatically cause.

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  75. About traumas.

    I have been traumatized myself by abusive males who take advantage of women by lying.

    At the moment I feel that I am more traumatized by a person who told me years ago that “SR abuses sexually his students” than by anything SR has done.

    That thought “SR abuses sexually his students” hits my nerve really bad. Even more than anything I have actually seen happening in Rigpa. It hits my nerve because I remember the real wrong doings that some men have done to me (not related to sex).

    It hurts me even more than what I think SR’s true motivation is. It has been very difficult to sort things out. What is a label given from outside to some act – and what is really going on, the motivation behind it all.

    People see things and act on things from different angles. How Finnigan sees SR as a nightmarish monster and yet: does it have anything to do with SR? In many things her view can be proven wrong.

    Sorting things out from the mess takes time.

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  76. “Without consent, sexual relations are at great risk of being nothing more than sexual assault. In the literature, there are many stories of victims who are confused about their right to refuse the sexual advances of their clergy.”

    I guess Mimi said she worked in Rigpa for 2 months, until she was suggested to do something sexual in nature. She went on to work there for 3 years – in a position, where she claims that ‘sex went with the job’. If she was reluctant I think there would have been many other areas in Rigpa she could have ‘worked’ where sex is definitely not part of any job description (if there even is one).

    She said that people think her position was admirable, she belonged to the inner circle – and she considered herself as a dakini (which she wasn’t). I think there is a danger for young people, who do not know themselves, to be influenced by what she thinks the surrounding thinks to be ‘cool’. I have never had the idea in Rigpa that being a sexual partner of SR is a ‘cool’ place to be and that women would aspire to be there. One can belong to the inner circle without having sex with SR.

    I think the claims of sexual abuse of students has been there since 1994-95 – and I doubt that Mimi hadn’t heard about them. Therefore I wonder how she stayed in a position that she considered abusive for 3 years.

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  77. Perhaps one of the problem is that a priest is considered as some kind of a Father.

    Is a Tibetan Buddhist lama considered a father in the same way? Our expectations are perhaps the same, since we come from this Christian based culture.

    What then when a lama rejects this position? Their goal is to make us see and believe in our own enlightened being. Therefore their goal is not subjugation but empowering us.

    This subject needs to studied further.

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