One Year With Rigpa – A Testimony

One Year With Rigpa – A Testimony

http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com

There are a number of articles at this forum which illuminate the subject of abuse in its various forms in Rigpa and more specifically Sogyal Rinpoche. We are happy to acknowledge the link and invite those readers who have not yet had an opportunity to look at it.

Tibetan Buddhism : Struggling With Difficult Issues

Controversies: Shugden, New Kadampa Tradition, Sogyal & more

One Year With Rigpa – A Testimony

http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2012/04/23/one-year-with-rigpa-a-testimony/

The following is the testimony of a former Rigpa student together with her current perspectives on safe dharma centers.

Thirteen years ago, I left a bookshop with two books under my arm. One was The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying by Sogyal Rinpoche (SR). The other was a commentary on lamrim by HH Dalai Lama. In a daze, I got in the car and drove several times around the block.  The next few nights I had very lucid sleep, as if I were aware of myself sleeping.  There was no doubt in my mind that I was heading in some spiritual direction that would be significant for me.

However, I read The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying instead of the lamrim text and I am still suffering today with the psychological fallout. I still wish from the depths of my heart that I had never read it, that I had begun my Buddhist path with the lamrim text, with the sane teachings of the gradual path instead of SR’s Dzogchen. Sometimes we can say that difficulties are important because of what they teach us. Certainly I have learned much from my experiences of what I call “lama madness”—but I believe that the damage has far out-surpassed this. Definitely, the damage to others, particularly my family, has far outweighed any benefit.

I was living a pretty wholesome life when all of this started, busy homeschooling two of our five daughters, milking goats, making bread and cheese, driving my kids to music lessons and sporting events. My husband and I had made a good job of combining our two families and I believe that our marriage had a good chance at survival. Certainly, if I had started with lamrim, I would have had a wealth of tools to deal with any problems we might have encountered as our children grew up and moved away. Our two oldest had already left home to start university and the third was applying that year for schools. For myself, I believe that as my mothering roles decreased, my own spiritual needs increased. I had already begun writing some soul-searching poetry and had just started publishing those. Experiences with Rigpa were soon to put a stop to all of that, however– the marriage, the homeschooling, the goats, the poetry were all on short leave. SR was to enter my life like an atomic bomb.

I only attended teachings at Rigpa for a year. By the end of that year, I was smoking cigarettes, drinking heavily and planning suicides. But in the beginning, I was enthusiastic. There was a great air of mystique and secrecy surrounding SR that drew me in very quickly. Very quickly, my enthusiasm for Buddhism became an enthusiasm for SR. He was funny, he was aloof, you felt his presence, you felt that he noticed you. You never knew when he was going to appear or disappear– he could be an hour late for a teaching or an hour early. This kept your emotions very acute, very vigilant. There were no interviews and no question and answer sessions in the teachings. We were told to “hold our questions in our hearts,” told that we might be surprised to find them (magically) answered during the teaching. For me, this was an ominous and dangerous encouragement to look to the paranormal, to believe in SR’s psychic powers. A central theme to SR’s teaching was the theme of “master.” He frequently spoke of his past teachers not as teachers, but as “masters.” With this theme was the theme of instant enlightenment. This was how he taught Dzogchen, as a very quick and easy path to enlightenment, a path of devotion. Frequently, he taught about students suddenly seeing the nature of their own minds in a swoon of devotion.

For me, a beginner, this approach was disastrous. My initial, huge enthusiasm for Buddhism became channelled into one perspective—the lama. Though I travelled weekly the 90 miles to New York City to attend study groups, the study was all about SR, all about his book and his teachings. This approach was very harmful for me; what I needed badly at that vulnerable time in my spiritual development, was a strong grounding in the dharma itself—certainly not a grounding in SR! Such was the shallowness of these study groups that I remember once asking a senior student about a verse which referred to emptiness.  Instead of giving me an introduction to emptiness, she missed that the verse was even about emptiness and gave me an obscure, convoluted explanation, indicating that she had no basic knowledge of Buddhism at all.

I attended Rigpa events regularly—and they were given frequently in the New York area during that year because it was the year SR’s son was born in Pennsylvania. Very early, I was experiencing strong paranormal experiences to do with SR. I believed that I could communicate with him psychically. Because I never had a single opportunity to speak with SR, because I could never check in with him about any of my experiences, they became my entire relationship with him. I expected, because of the strength of these experiences, and because of SR’s teachings, to become enlightened at any moment. This made for a dangerous cocktail of confusion, nothing like the great sanity of Buddha’s own teachings.

Absolutely, I would have hopped into bed with SR in an instant—regardless of my marriage, my children, my life. I would have done almost anything he asked. As it was, I started to believe that SR wanted me to become his spiritual wife and live with him in France. This delusion was so strong and convincing that I acted on it. I told my husband I was leaving him to go to France. I sent my two youngest daughters back overseas to live with their father. My family not only had to deal with my actions, but they had to deal with losing the woman I had been, with having a crazy woman in place of me. In my mind, however, I was not harming anyone. I was involved with the greater picture. I was going to become enlightened really fast and then I would send for my children, I would repair my relationship with my husband. I really believed that I was in the midst of a greater purpose.

My mental state was not aided by life in Rigpa teachings. As any Rigpa student knows, SR makes a common practice of publicly humiliating students. He will rant and rave at them during teachings and have them running like wild chickens trying to fulfill his many impossible demands. He will severely criticize and berate them in front of all attendees. Rigpa devotees say that this is a practice to diminish ego. On one blog, a Rigpa student wrote that it shows students their “better selves.”

The effect that these displays had on me as an observer is that I lost my better self—at a time when I needed it most. On one occasion, I brought my 16 year old daughter to a teaching. Afterwards, she objected quite strongly to SR’s public harsh treatment of a student. To my shame, I defended him. I said that he had a higher purpose that we could not fully understand. I had raised my daughters to be respectful, caring individuals and suddenly I was defending the public humiliation of a human being—I was calling it the behaviour of a higher being! How could I expect to practice the Buddha’s Dharma with such an outlook?  How could devotion make me so debased? It was no wonder that I could entertain delusions—such blind devotion was fertile ground for confusion and madness.

It is possible that in a private setting, such rough techniques could function to benefit a close student, could function something like a Zen koen at diminishing ego clinging. However, to display them publicly is shameful at best, psychologically damaging at worst. I remember passing a senior student in the restroom shortly after she had been subjected to public humiliation at a teaching. She had a cold, dark, closed expression as she passed me. There was no warmth or greeting, nothing that would resemble the Buddha’s teachings on warm heartedness. From my current perspective, these public humiliations look more like hazing—an initiation rite into the inner circle of Rigpa.

I attended a retreat at Lerab Ling towards the end of my time with Rigpa. By then, I was a mess. I was very internally focused and very much in need of help. As the time for my children’s departure neared and the reality of SR’s intentions started to become clearer, I had much mental torment. In fact, the voice of the lama inside my head had become very brutal and cruel, placing impossible demands on me. One morning, during our break from the teaching at Lerab Ling, the alarm was raised that we all needed to quickly gather in the tent. When I arrived there, SR had arrived in his singlet/undershirt and he was in a temper. He started yelling at us all for some offense that we had committed, though he was never specific about what it was. He had all his aids running around fetching his sun glasses, fetching something for him to eat, doing this and that, as if there was some great emergency, as if the place had caught fire.  He sat in his undershirt, eating yogurt and blaming us for the fact that he had had no opportunity to have lunch and I sat in an abject slump, just taking it all in, all the negativity and blame, both inside and out. Indeed, it did me no good at all.

At that same retreat, I met SR once walking along a path. I was filled with a sense that this was to be our moment, he would talk to me finally and resolve all the mess, tell me what I was to do. I looked up at him with a face full of expectation ready to speak with him. However, he merely shook his head and walked past. That was about the closest I came to the great master.

When we talk of safe dharma centers, I think we are not only talking about dharma centers where the teachers don’t sexually molest students; we are talking about dharma centers that are psychologically wholesome and nurturing. In such environments, sexual abuse is less apt to occur. If we are serious about the Buddha’s teachings on patience, tolerance and loving kindness, surely the teacher’s behavior needs to reflect that. I believe that SR’s close students feel much love and compassion from him—and certainly I had experiences of warm compassion coming from him as well. However, when he shouts and insults students, where are we to hold the contradiction of his behaviours except in confusion and ignorance?

Buddha says that the root cause of all our suffering is ignorance. Modern Western psychology as well is discovering that techniques such as Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, which use human intelligence to heal from mental afflictions, are very effective. I believe that when the lama becomes more important than the cultivation of wisdom in the students’ own minds, then there is great risk of trouble of all sorts. There’s a dumbing down that happens which causes the student to be vulnerable to all sorts of experiences. The student then becomes less capable of making sound decisions and abuse and mental illness can result.

From the perspective of SR’s behavior during teachings, it was no leap of my imagination to picture him sexually abusing women. I am not one to jump on bandwagons and witch hunts—nor would I ever simply believe these stories without verification.  However, the stories are not far-fetched in the context of SR’s everyday behavior. He behaves as a master who might consider himself above simple ethical norms. There is a Tibetan saying that if you give enough room for a small needle, it will gradually make more and more room for itself. The saying is given in reference to ethical norms. If a teacher gives himself permission to shout and humiliate people in public, I imagine it would become easier for him to give way to his anger whenever he pleases. I imagine it would become easy to give way to his lust when he pleases as well.

From my viewpoint, I am curious still about how I could have discovered the sanest religion in the world only to become nearly insane. I had discovered the religion with the strongest, greatest teachings on altruism only to bring harm to those whom I loved the most. Rigpa students are very quick to say that SR cannot be held responsible for mental illness in those who attend his teachings. Indeed, it is not my intention here to prove that SR caused my paranormal experiences, nor is it my intention to prove my sanity. I could explain to a professional how my delusions were markedly different from those in traditional Schizophrenia, but those discussions are beyond the scope of this writing. I am certainly interested in that fine line between psychotic and spiritual, however, because it appears that I have gained control over my delusions without the use of meds or therapy. I have done this by leaving behind the confused religion of Lamaism and turning instead to the great wisdom of Buddhism.

Rigpa will say—and I have had Rigpa insiders say this to me on blogs—that SR cannot be held accountable for my suffering. These same students say that women can simply say no about having sex with him. These are the words of an organization, a system with lawyers and strategies. I am more concerned with the future of Buddhism in the west and the unnecessary suffering of Western students. What I say, as a psychotherapist, as a Buddhist student who has built her own sanity from the gutter up through the Buddha’s precious teachings, is that I see in SR’s approach serious risks to the safety of students.

There are two basic approaches to teaching Buddhism. There is a general approach, applicable to all students, and there is a specific approach, applicable to specific students at a specific point in their spiritual development. HH Dalai Lama, who, like SR, teaches to large numbers of students, uses the first approach. SR appears to use the second. I believe—from painful experience—that if he is going to use this specific approach, if he is going to teach a “master”- centered approach, if he is going to “work” with students publicly, then perhaps he should be more available to speak with every student in a close, meaningful, stable way—perhaps he should be more transparent and accessible as well. Perhaps there should be less of a power base to Rigpa, that impenetrable and scary face of the organization. Certainly, for myself, if SR had just taken notice that I was in trouble, if he had been available for interviews, if he had taken a little time to work with me, to speak with me and steer me clear of my confusions, much suffering for myself and my family could have been avoided. Of this, I am quite certain.

85 Responses

  1. Helpful as always, DI.

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  2. I do but I don’t. A equals B which changes into C. No I did not mean C I meant shall I eat a peach or should I walk on the beach?

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  3. How can we have an evolving discussion if we don’t reference things we have said in past posts?

    I do realize it gets tricky in here with the multiple names thing. Though I favor freedom in general, I sometimes wish we could at least be IP-constrained to one identity (anonymous ID obviously is fine) so we can be sure who’s questions were answering/addressing.

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  4. Sheila, my mother has dementia and I have for some time felt that there is no point in having an argument or disagreement with her. She simply makes up her own version of the past to fit with where she is in the moment (e.g. “I don’t have to wear a hat because I have never had a sunspot.”) So I try my best to avoid disagreeing with her and then things flow smoothly between us, because she is really a very sweet person and of course, I love her dearly.

    I feel in the same situation with you. If our discussion doesn’t go your way, you simply start making up a past history of comments that you’ve decided I made and start arguing with them– instead of discussing the comment I have just made. This has been my experience several times now and once again here, when you say all the things you imagine that I’ve said about dharma centers in the past, then we are simply back stuck in the mulberry bush– and I’m sure you’re a very sweet woman, but how on earth is a person to have a sensible discussion with you?

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  5. Dolma and DI, I would like to ask again whether you feel Rigpa as an organization is systematically abusive. I think it’s pretty important that we not continue to speak of the entire organization as abusive if other teachers there are not really being accused of wrongdoing. If other Rigpa teachers are considered dangerous, then it’s equally important to name those teachers, and soon, so that students can be made aware of the reasons why.

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  6. Sorry…”publicly funded” and “it doesn’t mean people don’t care about ethics.” I wonder how many other times my iPad has replaced “people” with “Pete” . . .

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  7. I agree that at its heart this discussion is about (or perhaps should be about) finding the right teacher.

    Since dharma centers are not publicly funded, but instead are multiple, private individual efforts, there really is a limit to what we can demand of them as far as changing any particular aspect of teaching method, style and so forth.

    In a free market, and again because these are not publically funded groups or centers we’re talking about, it’s akin to choosing a martial arts dojo or yoga program: they are privately established institutions, so it’s really up to us to find the one that suits us, rather than begin attending the one closest to us and insist on program changes.

    In fact, the martial arts/yoga analogy works in many ways: Tae Kwon Do centers, for example, while definitely teaching aspects of a shared tradition, do not have an overseeing authority which regulates teaching style, content and so forth. There is a huge range of teaching styles, scope, focus, etc. If someone tried to bring a charter of ethics to the Tae Kwon Do world, it would likely not work for the same reasons it would likely not work in the world of Buddhism. It doesn’t mean Pete don’t care about ethics, it just means people are rightly leery of centralized power and, ironically, the potential for its abuse.

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  8. Drolma, safe Dharma Center?

    I think you should choose a different teacher. I have been listening to many teachers – and I have chosen him. I feel he goes through me like hot knife in the butter.

    I have tried to discuss things with other teachers – and just felt empty after their responses: I just didn’t feel we talk about the same thing.

    I have never had that feeling with SR. He is wast, he is humorous and wrathful at times. I am – or was – myself maybe enough passionate, emotional and an angry person – that I felt that he could take it all. If he was some sweet fragile being sitting there, I think I had only wished to run to the mountains with myself. He has been good for me – bigger than my emotions, clearly. Safe parent, maybe, who can handle difficult beings like me, who has had many questions and a rebellious nature. He has also given me more than any ordinary parent could: Buddhist teachings.

    Just look for your own teacher. Somebody from the three other categories. Since he has many students so I guess many want him and not somebody else as their teacher. If you look, I believe you will find a proper teacher for yourself, in case you want to have a personal relationship with a teacher, join a group or HHDL’s teachings are not enough.

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  9. “questioning is encouraged…”

    If you had stayed listening to what SR says, he also encourages questioning – but points out also that we Western students mostly don’t have a problem with questioning, but more with faith. But he has repeated many times that Buddha told people not to take his word for it, but try the teachings, if they work.

    When people are in the beginning phase of ‘falling in love’, or any other such feeling, they may be a bit deaf when listening carefully the other person and do not see the person clearly. Then they are disappointed when their idea is crumbled into pieces, maybe by SR purposefully or not. People who have visited Rigpa often assume to know SR deeply after an instant.

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  10. But Drolma, you are asking others to extrapolate from your bad experiences and assume they are true everywhere else.

    If I say I don’t share your feelings on this issue, you say I simply have blind faith.

    It is what I see as exaggeration–extrapolating your experience, which you say was not abuse, out to mean that most dharma centers may be unsafe–that I see as the chief red flag in these conversations. The multiple identity thing does nothing to ease my mind.

    Some Catholic centers abused boys, yes, but even in that far more serious case, no one is suggesting that all Catholic centers are dangerous. Most, in fact, are not. Most Catholic priests have never committed a criminal act. Most are kind, loving people.

    I’m all for eyes wide open, and addressing real, true problems and needs. But I am definitely not for this strange impetus to label all dharma centers (or any center) questionable.

    Kids have bad experiences in public school, too, but it wouldn’t be healthy to suggest to parents that all schools may be terrible, and that if they don’t see them as terrible, perhaps they’re just blinded. There may in fact be such cases, but it is incorrect to suggest it is the norm.

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  11. In fact, Sheila, your descriptions of Deer Park are descriptions of what I would call a psychologically safe dharma center. This is a place where people are respectful and supportive of each other. They don’t beat each other, they don’t shout at each other, they don’t take sexual advantage of each other. They uphold the Buddha’s tenets of nonharming and simple kindness. You haven’t mentioned whether questioning is encouraged, but that would be one feature that I would add to your list of virtues of the Deer Park community.

    I hope your description is true– believe me, it has never been my assumption nor wish that all our dharma centers are unsafe. In the same way, I wonder why you extrapolate from the good experiences you have had and immediately assume that they are true everywhere else, even places you have never attended. This makes me even question your descriptions of Deer Park, whether they too might be an assumption based on blind faith.

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  12. And B&S, in response to your troubles with the identities of commenters, if you simply take everyone at face value and don’t try to look into things beyond that, then there’s really no problem. Then you can respond honestly and transparently, without suspicion. On the other hand, if you’re always suspicious and worried about who’s on first, then you just make lots of trouble for yourself. Isn’t that true?

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  13. My apologies, Bella and Sheila for not picking up sooner, but I give myself a few days break from this conversation, as things don’t change very much in your comments and it can be dizzying going round and round with you.

    I would like to comment that my testimony was not ever about my own mental health, nor did I once claim to be abused in my testimony, though I do know that I have mentioned feeling abused in former comments. My point is that I did not write the testimony in order to prove or disprove abuse, or engage in a discussion about my mental health. Those concerns are absolutely irrelevant.

    In fact, it was not until I had a reason for writing other than my own concerns that I had any interest in writing at all. That reason is the wish to discuss psychological safety in our dharma centers. I have no other interest. If you want to start going round the mulberry bush with Jack and asking me to prove that waterboarding is torture, and prove that I didn’t fall in love with Sogyal,and prove that I never had a dream and wasn’t psychotic, then we might as well agree to disagree right now.

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  14. If she did we would mark her card. I am not sure what you mean about your editor? Are you involved in publishing. simply make a request and I can passon your email to either Drolma or Buddhanon so you can have a private conversation if they are open

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  15. I didn’t ask that DI do anything about it, because I agree with you that people are completely free to post under any name they like. My request was to Drolma, in case she has an interest in having a genuine discussion about her Rigpa experiences and observations.

    How can I can in good faith recommend someone look at the testimonies expressed here, when the first thing my editor would point out is the fact that some people pose as their own supporters?

    They may well have genuine stories to tell, but ingenuine guises tend to obscure that fact, and for better or worse, turn off time-strapped editors.

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  16. Thanks Sheila we do not need your assistance in monitoring the site.

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  17. Sheila people can post as who they wish. Because you find it hard to deal with does not really matter. In any case you may have got it wrong. what does it matter?
    Here any one who wishes can be anonymous or use any title

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  18. I think I already told this story that happened 1-2 years ago in Lerab Ling:

    An older woman landed in the reception of Rigpa. She claimed she didn’t need to pay any retreat fees because she was invited to Lerab Ling by SR and HHDL to a recognition ceremony. She was supposed to be recognized as some important reincarnation. HHDL wasn’t even there and hadn’t been there the whole year.

    The workers tried to ask her to leave the place for 4 hours – unsuccessfully as she was constantly trying to walk in from the doors without paying. She didn’t have any accommodation on the site, since she was expecting people to give her shelter as an important guest.

    Are her fantasies caused by Tibetan Buddhism and it’s ideas about reincarnation? Or are they caused by some mental sickness and the content is flavored by Tib. Buddhism? One can see the situation from both of these views. I consider the latter a rational explanation.

    Equally one can see Drolma’s experiences from two angles. I don’t mean to say those stories were equal or even close – and I don’t mean to say Drolma is mentally ill. How could I give such statements about anybody? But I think many people in LL agreed that the woman who thought was an important incarnation was mentally unstable. At the end the police was called to pick her up.

    I think Drolma was, for some reasons that I don’t know of, somehow vulnerable and I believe she was suffering in her life circumstances even before her stumbling at Rigpa. Sudden complete change of life doesn’t happen only because one is impressed by a teacher, if there isn’t already something unclear in the general circumstances. I’m sorry to talk in this way, but I don’t think blaming SR is the way to continue in searching for clarity.

    If she had had a personal talk with somebody in Rigpa, she wouldn’t have gone astray that much. There are professionals from many health care areas in Rigpa both as care takers and as students, so not every helper or instructor is a beginner. People who are instructors should also have a solid daily practice.

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  19. Or at least, if you’re having avatar probs as I sometimes do, it would help to mention that you are Drolma/Buddhanon as opposed to making/letting it seem as if you are two different people with two different experiences.

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  20. Drolma, I wish somehow you could post as one person instead of multiple people. I don’t understand how it helps this discussion to post as both Buddhanon and Drolma.

    In your experience in Rigpa, did you find other teachers whom you feel were abusive as well? When looking at an organization as a whole (or even in part), I think it’s important to determine whether people feel problem behaviors are systematic, or rest largely with one person.

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  21. He does not exist now so do not look for windmills or if you do go into the Spillover thread. you can rant and rave in there. Here we are only concerned about One Year With Rigpa – A Testimony

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  22. “I agree with you; you are not obliged to be kind or sensitive.”

    I don’t know if being sensitive means. I have known a little about Drolma’s view already months before her post above here in DI.

    Should I have said: “Yes, you are right. SR abused you in your dreams. Therefore you have the right and justified reason to believe the claims about SR to be true, because you saw dreams and you fell in love with SR. As soon as you feelings were not shared by him in reality, you got disappointed and hurt. I understand that you are sad.”

    Feeling sorrow and perhaps self pity after 10 years and blaming someone for the tragic choices concerning her marriage… I also understand the self pity. When I was young I also felt pity for some things that had happened to me. For some reason that self pity is gone and with it some vulnerability, perhaps. Maybe I don’t feel sorrow anymore about the events: they are gone, far behind.

    I understand – but does it help, if I lie and say: you are right, SR abused you. I don’t think it helps at all, in the long run. Sorrow… it is sad and one should mourn in order to get over things. Usually in the process one might also get clarity about the over all situation: about the reasons why somebody did other things than those we wished them to do. I’m sorry but Drolma’s experiences happened over 10 years ago, and I think I would have talked to her differently, if they were recent events. I don’t think it helps if I say: “I agree, you were abused” when I definitely don’t think she was. I’m not MF nor VB.

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  23. I don’t know who the “expert” is, Mike, he doesn’t have the courage or courtesy to identify himself.

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  24. Perhaps you could tell us who this expert is, and give a reference to your last claim. in the meantime good bye. You are getting close to being pushed into the spillover again!

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  25. The only people here who pounce outright on complete strangers (that I have seen) are the so-called “Buddhist expert” and the director of Dialogue Ireland himself.

    Perhaps you have been on a break Sheila there are two people here in DI and we currently do not have a Buddhist expert and are unlikely to do so again

    Some people here who pose as victims are well-known sockpuppets of other entities on other forums.
    Speak for yourself

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  26. The title of these threads is “RIGPA;” the purpose is to talk about Rigpa, the organization.

    One Year With Rigpa –

    A Testimony

    It is not just about the organisation but the man at the centre of the Empire

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  27. I would also ask that you pay close attention to the incidences here where both the Buddhist expert and director of Dialogue Ireland flat-out state that at least one of the victims posting here is not telling the truth. They do so without offering any proof other than “because it’s well-known such a thing couldn’t be true.”

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  28. Rather, some of the reason for pouncing.

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  29. And I should add that the reason for those two’s pouncing is due to simple human irritation we all share as the result of dealing with sockpuppetry–even if, in some cases, it’s a case of mistaken identity.

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  30. Buddhanon, I don’t know who you are, and how familiar you are with this issue–you may be new to the discussion, or very familiar–I don’t know.

    A chief problem is that not all posters are genuine. There is no single, more-destructive factor than that. If you sense irritation going in one direction or another, it is likely because the people conversing have conversed before. The only people here who pounce outright on complete strangers (that I have seen) are the so-called “Buddhist expert” and the director of Dialogue Ireland himself.

    Rather than take my word for it, I encourage you (if you want to get a feel for what’s what) to take some time and read through the Rigpa threads.

    Some people here who pose as victims are well-known sockpuppets of other entities on other forums.

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  31. No, I wasn’t talking about counseling services or a hotline, just human sensitivity. I agree with you; you are not obliged to be kind or sensitive.

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  32. Budhanon, if someone thought people were a “pack of whiners,” they would not continually suggest those people put their efforts in a more effective direction to seek redress.

    Women have been told here on this forum to “shut up,” and not by me.

    Internet forums are not the proper place for abused women to seek direct assistance with their abuser – in fact, you will find no police station, nor counselor, who recommends this; on the contrary, the police and counselors will encourage you NOT to put address direct abuse issues online at all.

    Private forums would at least be a place where abuse victims (both men and women) could share experiences; however, there is no guarantee that a group of self-declared anonymous online commentators will be healthy or even safe. Again, licensed counseling centers, which are subject to regulation, are a very good place to start.

    Dialogue Ireland is *not* intended as an abuse counseling service. The title of these threads is “RIGPA;” the purpose is to talk about Rigpa, the organization. I The purpose is NOT to provide an abuse hotline, and any misconception on that point is dangerous.

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  33. Please read my (or our) posts more carefully. I do understand Drolma and how she views things, even though I don’t agree that she has been abused. Most of her story has happened inside her mind, not in reality. If I saw dreams about people who told me to do strange things in the dreams – but afterwards, in reality, I would discuss with them and they would NEVER say or ask me to do such things as they did in my dream, was I abused by those people? I should consider my dreams as projections, my own fears or wishes, nothing more.

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  34. No, nor would they feel safe amongst company such as yours. This is a place for discussions on the plight of suffering human beings. To use this in order to convince yourselves that those who claim to have suffered are just a pack of whiners is quite reprehensible.

    Buddha taught about the qualities of being a warm hearted human being who could not stand the sight of suffering. You are promoting a different perspective entirely, that of coldheartedness towards any claim of suffering– that of “why don’t people just toughen up, look at how med students suffer….” Etc. Etc. Have you stopped to consider that there might be incidencies that are not criminal that we are talking about? That perhaps people suffer at the hands of others and there is no criminal charge? What if a friend of yours was badly emotionally abused by her husband? Would you tell her to just shut up and buck up, if she’s not prepared to go to the police? Would you call her a lier? Would you tell her that she’s imagining her suffering, she’s dreamed it?

    Would you then recommend her husband to someone else, as a very kind husband?

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  35. And sorry again, but self-declared anti-cult organizations which thrive on mining women’s information, and therefore have money in the game, are not the first place the downtrodden should go.

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  36. Sorry Buddhanon, the basic principles of democracy and justice are what save us from the dark ages.

    You would have us live in a world where men are imprisoned based in anonymous internet rumors?

    Time and again I have advised women here to get off the internet and go to the police, or at least trusted friends. This is not only my advice, it is the advice any women will receive (and has received) at licensed abuse-prevention centers.

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  37. Bella and Sheila, you two floor me. It has taken civilization hundreds of years to put into place basic principles of protection for the downtrodden and marginalized individualts in society. Hundreds of years to call rape rape and not “the woman asked for it.” And now you two are busy talking your way into a new dark ages and calling it profound.

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  38. Wow – that is profound, Bella. Worth reading several times. Kind of sad, too; I also have wondered if maybe our Western (especially American, maybe?) society is simply too jazzed up and freaked out by sexual issues to be able to process anything approaching union tantra. I’ve also wondered whether (and am actually quite convinced that) we’ve taken the “do your own thing” message way too far. It’s to the point now that simply having a teacher, of anything, is considered humiliating or borderline abusive. And I don’t mean having a teacher who is abusive, I mean the simple fact that teachers of any subject DO order you around, give you direct instructions, and even–heaven forbid–get frustrated with you, since they’re human, too. I fear that we’ve really over-preached the “boundaries” thing, and that any time an instructor dares suggest we do something, or not do something, we leap to the conclusion that our “boundaries” are being violated, when in fact we might just plain be messing up, and the teacher is pointing it out.

    Ask any first year medical student about boundaries, lol. If you want to be excellent in many professions, you have to be willing to deal with not only embarrassment, but outright humiliation. That may not be ideal, but at the same time it doesn’t necessarily constitute abuse. It’s very, very hard to sort out where teaching ends and abuse begins, for example, in the medical education system where the stakes are so high, and therefore the teaching environment so intense.

    Any nursing staff participating in this conversation also have certainly taken their share of flak, speaking as the child of two nurses.

    All that said, I have never experienced a sensation of even mild embarrassment at Deer Park, other than when I wiped out on a cushion once just before the teachings, and that was my own doing (and perhaps the over-eager floor waxer’s).

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  39. I have met HH Dalai Lama too and received teachings from him, not just public talks, whom I respect, value and like a lot, but I still prefer SR as my personal teacher.

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  40. I guess, if one is holding on to outer circumstances, looking for security in them (I admit I am doing it), then it is very difficult to let go of the judgmental mind and the insecure self that needs to feel protected and safe. I have understood that the security and work on the self has to be done before one is able to go to the next phase, the Buddhist or Vajrayana path. I have the need to feel free but I notice that I’m not always brave enough to be that free. As for a teacher, I wouldn’t wish any other kind than him. I am referring to my own experiences about him as a teacher. He has many sides to him. It takes time to grasp his depth. Older students feel like they are still learning about him, finding more trust in him and openness in themselves, but it doesn’t happen just like that.

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  41. If you think about it carefully:

    would you like to be ‘treated harsh’ behind some closed doors – or would you like there to be others around? I’d rather pick the latter. But I also consider SR in such a way, that I believe he cares about people.

    Have you ever been a teacher? You might also think that a teacher may have emotions, tiredness, maybe being even fed up with students? I could well imagine that – and I have zero % envy about their position. I am not saying he is fed up. It’s quite difficult to grasp onto him to put him in some single box or frame in order to judge him. I feel no need to do that either.

    Buddhism is also about learning to watch our own reactions – and not to be consumed in them. According to Buddhism we are there (or here) to change our own view or mind. Mind is the creator of this all. I wish I could remember that basic truth more often.

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  42. Indeed, Bella, that is true– there are different approaches. My question is whether it is safe for a lama to use specific, harsh methods for a specific student at a specific time– IN FRONT OF EVERYONE. In addition, I seriously object to this lama holding no responsibility for the effects that his actions might have on participants.

    I am not doubting the value those harsh methods might have for the particular student he is using them on– I am questioning the safety of those methods for the casual or not-so-casual observer. There might be someone present, for example, who has a history of childhood abuse and SR’s harsh methods might trigger the trauma of that.

    But the Rigpa line is that SR is not accountable for this person’s reactions to his harsh methods and I find that attitude reprehensible.

    If SR is going to teach to large numbers of students, I strongly believe that he must adjust his teaching style accordingly– so that he can be more accountable. Either that or teach to small, intimate numbers of students that he knows well. That is the repsonsible approach.

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  43. Drolma, I hope this helps you to see how Tibetan Buddhist tradition reflects things.

    Mental abuse. Other lamas have given their statements about Sogyal Rinpoche and the current situation. We were told
    a) not to worry and
    b) not to feel bad.

    There are different teachers: some are soft, some are not so soft. Buddha already said that there are different ways to deal with different students.

    There are four ways to teach:

    1. peaceful

    2. enriching: glorious, wisdom, compassion, generous

    3. magnetizing(?): a role model, an inspiration

    4. powerful: wrathful, direct

    We were also told to see the teacher in different ways.

    One is also free to choose if one follows certain teacher or some other.

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  44. Drolma, this is for you from me:

    Pema Chodron (safe teacher, woman) talking about masters and thier ways:

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  45. I’ll address the Thornson death in the spillover thread.

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  46. Hello Drolma,

    With respect to your point, I meant lines between the multiple (and often non-related) issues of:

    1. Criminal abuse
    2. Buddhism in the west
    3. Avoiding pitfalls in religion (or any socially intense organization)

    There may be centers where all three issues need addressing, but what bothers me about the current discussions is that they could easily scare people off from checking out my own dharma center, which is a wonderful place of friendship, learning, and healing.

    If the methodology used in dealing with any of the above three issues results in good people being turned away from good organizations, then something is wrong.

    It doesn’t help that there are groups and people in existence for whom turning people away from Buddhism (often specifically Tibetan Buddhism) is the goal. They latch on to conversations like these, and obfuscate genuine soul-searching with their political and dogmatic agendas.

    Zhengjue Buddhism in Taiwan, for example, which purports to be Ch’an, has as one of its central goals the eradication of Tibetan Buddhism. People from this organization, operating under the organization “True Enlightenment Education Foundation,” spend many hours on Buddhist forums (and are currently participating here at Dialogue Ireland) and in the streets, handing out pamphlets or posting information that “Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism.”

    For example, in our discussions here at Dialogue Ireland about whether or not Rigpa and other Tibetan Buddhist organizations are dangerous, the fallacy has been inserted into the conversation that “tantra requires use of 12 year old girls.” That came from Zhengjue Buddhism, and has been picked up by the Western reform crowd as gospel truth.

    It’s very dangerous to mix all this issues up, or at least, unhelpful and confusing. I think it would really facilitate traction in each of the above three issues (and any more we can think of, I don’t mean to limit it to my own view) to take time to look at them separately. I really believe trying to talk about them all at once doesn’t seem to work, because people like me who attend wholesome dharma centers get shouted down when trying to address issues #2 and #3.

    It shouldn’t be necessary, in our conversations, to “admit” to anyone else’s personal belief. In other words, you seem to feel strongly that most dharma centers are dangerous; I definitely feel the opposite.

    We should be able to continue the discussion without forcing each other (or anyone else) to admit to anything, and without others coming in an accusing either of us of lying. I think that is harder when all 3 of the above issues are addressed at once.

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  47. Sheila, you raise an interesting point about drawing clear lines between virtue and non-virtue in our dharma centers. Personally, I would like the lines to have less fuzz on them. I believe that this is what we are really talking about on these threads– it’s certainly my motive in writing comments and posts. We can comfort ourselves that events such as the tragedy which occurred recently in Arizona at Diamond Mountain University were due to the fact that Michael Roach is clearly no longer part of mainstream Buddhism. However, I personally would like a clearer line drawn. I’d like to know defnitively that leaders in mainstream Buddhist centers are commited to higher ethical standards before I can feel comfortable that we are not on a slippery slope towards more tragedies like the one that just occurred in the Arizona dessert. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/americanbuddhist/2012/05/death-in-the-desert-in-an-american-buddhist-cult.html

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  48. And I do absolutely and deeply sympathize with the trauma described in this article. I am a person who is easily swept up in a cause, or an organization, or a new passion…I know very well how it overtakes your life and blinds you to reason, or seems to. But so often in life we regret things we participated in earlier, resent people we used to like, wish we could reclaim time we feel was utterly wasted. This is not particular to Sogyal Rinpoche nor to Buddhist education. Karate clubs, social groups, the military, an intense job–every one of these things can take over our lives and be strongly resented in hindsight. It is extremely painful.

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  49. Note: finding a good match, setting up westernized Buddhist centers, and dealing with criminal abuse are all completely separate issues and to some extent have to be dealt with as such.

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  50. I think the reason we can never have full conversations on the points raised in this article is that the minute one issue is addressed, a dsecond, separate issue is used as a weapon to try and win the conversation.

    For example, if I say what I firmly believe, which is that there are as many ways to teach Buddhism as there are teachers, and that to force teachers into some predefined, regulated mold is a bad idea because it abandons those students who were benefitting from the current teaching style, a completely different issue will simply be raised: that the teacher is abusive and I must be a brainwashed follower or paid lawyer.

    From what I have seen over this past year (has it been that long?!), if we are truly to be able to discuss the many issues raised in this (kind of) article, we at some point have to flow chart the conversation onto more carefully-defined paths. This way, even if we disagree on this or that point, we can still discuss the remaining points.

    For example, I believe that anyone forcing another to have sex is completely wrong (and criminal); however, I don’t agree that sex between dharma practitioners is wrong, regardless of whether one or both of them are currently teaching a class. I agree that some teaching styles are harsh and damaging to some students; however I do not believe that is a function only of the teacher, because I know from personal experience that teachers whom my friend found “harsh and damaging” were for me absolutely excellent, and I didn’t find their style traumatic at all (referring to college classes here). I believe wholeheartedly in finding and promoting gentle, soft-spoken teachers of all subjects, for those who desperately need such a thing (as I often do), but I do not believe that goal is in any way related to or served by shutting down teachers whose style we don’t like, or even that we detest. It’s a free world, and teachers have a right to teach in any fashion they choose. If no one likes it, no one will come.

    I believe wholeheartedly in pursuing justice for humans who have been criminally harmed by another human; I do not believe in treating someone as a criminal just because another person says they are. I do believe in investigating the matter, and I do not believe in rushing to judgment.

    If we were to title this flow chart, we couldn’t really call it “Safe Dharma Centers,” because a dharma center that is serving one person’s needs perfectly well could easily be called “unsafe” by others. It also sends a completely spun message–that dharma centers might often be, horribly dangerous places, which is untrue. It would be like starting a national campaign entitled “Avoiding Emergency Room Rape.” such a campaign would not be based in reality, would keep people who need care away from emergency rooms, and as such it would be fair to question the motives of the campaigners.

    Anyone with a partner knows that one cannot really change another’s behavior easily, or at all. Dharma centers are private endeavors, and if a teacher wants to “teach tough” (though I have not experienced this once, with any Tibetan teacher), they have that right. In looking for a dharma center that fits your needs, it is fruitless to demand that an existing teacher change his or her style; it’s rarely possible for a person to even be capable of such a thing. Instead, seek a teacher who is a good fit for you, just as you would seek a friend or partner who is a good fit for you. And definitely resist the urge to destroy teachings that are working (however unlikely that may seem to you) excellently for other.

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  51. I don’t mean SR is really scary. I feel sometimes very warm feelings toward him, sometimes the things he says hits the nerve quite bad. A friend of mine has never been afraid of him, but he is very brave and self-confident. I wouldn’t dare to go too near him. He seems like a hockey player with 8 arms and 8 sticks and you are only with one broken one (the ego). It’s impossible to win him, because he has all the means to defeat you – or your ego. His teachings go through you and there’s no place to hide. In that sense he is scary, for the ego.

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  52. I think it’s really sad that the concept of master-apprentice relationship is so commonly swallowed, in these discussions, as something “bad.”

    A master-apprentice relationship is not bad – it is precious. Whether describing the relationship between a master painter and student, a master surgeon and intern, or a master dancer and an understudy, to have the privilege of studying with a great teacher, an expert in his/her field who happens also to be a good fit for you, personally, that is truly, truly precious.

    Someone mentioned in an earlier post that it was “better than being in love,” or something to that effect, and (no offense to my sweetie!) but it’s definitely in the ballpark.

    We so often get caught up in our personal love relationships that we forget how passionate and vital are the relationships within our intellectual/artistic pursuits (if we’re lucky). Life is not just about boyfriend/girlfriend passion; life is also about intellectual, artistic and spiritual passion. To have a deep, quality master-student relationship truly is passion.

    If you denigrate that as something inherently dirty, or dangerous, it simply means you haven’t experienced a healthy master-student relationship; it does *not* mean there is no such thing.

    I sincerely hope that in these discussions we refrain from the temptation to sideline all master-student relationships as “dangerous devotion.”

    Many, many things in life can be dangerous if used wrongly. An epi pen will save you, or kill you, depending on how you use it. The fact it can be used unwisely has nothing to do with whether or not it is precious.

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  53. We all have our focus. My interest is in the visualization practices (tantric). Some prefer to focus on loving kindness practices. Maybe when I’m older I am more interested in other things, who knows? At the moment Buddhist practice is not central to me, which is a shame. I can’t concentrate on many things at the same time. Even though you may not believe it, I have always been open by nature for beings’ suffering and wanted to protect them. In all my working life I have wanted to change the world into a better place. But one should first change their own minds, so one is not swayed by the suffering one sees. Buddhism has been a key in finding true strength and hope in facing this world.

    When I found Buddhism I didn’t look for a therapeutic group or a lama I could cling into. I don’t like clinging and prefer freedom. I was looking for the spiritual truth and a path. I was mainly interested in meditation and what could be discovered through that.

    My own first dream about SR was a very warm one. We looked at different chakras in a picture. I told him: “I feel something in here” (pointing at the head). He pointed at the heart and asked: “Why not here?” We have different dreams and different paths. I have seen and experienced suffering so it’s not new to me. Having an open heart is a challenge to us all, isn’t it? It might mean facing lots of pain.

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  54. I observe one aspect of your perspectives on the dharma, Bella. You talk so much about being shown the nature of your mind, as if that’s the central point of Buddhsim. Rarely do I hear you speak of love, compassion, patience, tolerance, forgiveness. Rarely does Buddhism for you seem to be about the progress you’ve made in becoming a more warmhearted person.

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  55. Drolma, you can’t say that you have been where I have been. We have different experiences, different expectations and different reactions toward our experiences. I haven’t been where you have. Do not generalize your own experience. It’s not respectful toward other people with different lenses.

    I do accept as a truth what you have gone through, I accept that in your case holding questions in your hearts is not a god advice. You should always share things with other people and if you can’t do it with SR, do it with other people. (But I must also say that you finally got your answer – and you were not abused, but the opposite!)

    I accept truthful sounding stories. But as I can’t ask anybody to live my life and see SR with my eyes, in the same way not any one person can claim to hold the truth about him. That is delusion.

    You had a rough year in your life, but it doesn’t mean anything definite about SR.

    I have also visited places, had terrible time in some and wouldn’t want to return. Then I met other people who have also visited those same places – and they didn’t share my experiences, but they even want to live in those places. I’m amazed about those people, but also accept my own experience as my ‘karma’ or something from the past that surfaced the present life – made my karma or past visible to me for a moment. I accept my own experience and my past: it’s good to know.

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  56. Consciously experiencing something here does not mean having a mystical experience. Rather, it means consciously generating a state of mind that is accompanied by understanding, either with or without effort.

    – In Gelug, the conscious experience is some level of blissful awareness of voidness.

    – In the non-Gelug systems, it is focus on Buddha-nature in our tantric masters and in us, with some level of understanding of Buddha-nature.

    – In dzogchen, it is focus specifically on the basis three aspects of rigpa as Buddha-nature factors in our tantric masters and in us.

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  57. Moreover, unawareness (ignorance), here,

    – is not in the sense of inverted cognition and grasping of the cognitive appearance of things (phyin-ci-log-par ‘dzin-pa) – perceiving them to exist in a manner that does not correspond to their actuality and grasping for them to truly exist in that manner.

    – Nor is it unawareness in the sense of not knowing (mi-shes-pa) that dualistic appearances are false.

    – Rather, it is unawareness in the sense of not knowing its own nature. It does not “recognize its own face.”

    http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/dzogchen/basic_points/major_facets_dzogchen.html

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  58. Personally I also think that it would be good for you to go and see SR again, with new eyes.

    Either you’d see him differently, from a detached position, or
    you would see yourself from another place. Sometimes it helps to feel safe when you can find the security in yourself – even when you are in a formerly ‘scary’ place. You see those karmic lenses don’t exist anymore, you feel free.

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  59. SR’s perfection? I guess I don’t have the same expectations from him as some people seem to have: a god, so therefore I don’t have equal disappointments.

    I see in SR many sides, not just God who constantly treats people like the God of the Bible, punishing them. I see in him great joy too, love, warmth, caring, true dedication towards his students.

    I’m sorry Drolma, but I have been there long enough to see him in many situations. I’ve looked into his eyes from close by without seeing the lustrous demon in him – like some seems to like to describe him.

    Do you think that you’d like to be judged because of some projection that people have of you? Maybe those projections are the ones that one should work with in Buddhism? At least that is the way I understand it.

    Dzogchen is not described as ‘safe’. If you have expectations of a ‘hospital atmosphere’ where you are lulled into a secure therapeutic environment, then it’s not for you. There is a difference – and I’d like there to be that. We can simply choose different teachers.

    If you just took time to objectively look at your own projections and finally maybe even laugh at them a little, it might get easier. Now you just left in the middle of feeling personally offended – and that’s where you seem to me to be stuck, in the past.

    Was you marriage really a good one? Why your husband didn’t forgive you if you wanted to return to him? Is there any reason for you to hold on to the past, emotionally?

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  60. And I want to add, Bella, that I know where you’re coming from. I’ve been there. I gave up an essential ingredient of myself to practice lamaism and only built it back again through the teachings of the Buddha. So I know how you contort reality to keep the lama where you want him. There is no other possibility for you than SR’s perfection and I know how that feels. I’ve been there.

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  61. Bella, I am glad that you have reached a diagnosis of my mental health with your non-Buddhist friends. However, my intention in sharing my experiences at Rigpa had nothing to do with a desire to discuss delusions, paranormal experiences, psychic ability or falling in love. It was about the need to have psychologically safe dharma centers. It was about practices within Rigpa that make it unsafe. It was about the need for us to start having discussions about safety in our dharma centers.
    You yourself have already reached a point where you can no longer identify public humiliation as public humiliation. You cannot see that even if the student being treated harshly in front of many, the student being hazed, doesn’t feel that it’s wrong, that it might have a horrible effect on someone in the back of the room, someone that SR will never be accountable to.
    Unfortunately, because you’ve reached that point, because you want me to prove that waterboarding is torture, then there is nothing left to discuss.

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  62. DI, if you think about it seriously, do you really think that many people leave their families because of their projections toward a teacher, whom with they NEVER spoke in person? Seriously? Don’t be naive.

    There’s no point in discussing the matter with me, because my responses will only get more strict. I can still feel sorry for a person who experienced those things, but do not consider her as a typical Rigpa student or that her experience is caused by SR.

    Him shaking his head is a clear indication that he never wished Drolma to do any of those things, so how come he would have sent – in some magical way – dreams into her mind that would tell her to move to France? Please, there’s also limits to mystical thinking – and here’s the point to get real (and rational).

    My non-Buddhists friends also said that many people may see dreams about celebrities or famous people, trying to get their attention with messages and so on (crazy stuff) – and get disappointed when those fantasies don’t come true. (Yes, I didn’t want to be mean, but just think about it for heaven’s sake!)

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  63. Thanks for that deep insight and I discussed it with a group of terrorists and they do not think you will get arrested for liberating Tibet!

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  64. Good that you see yourself that way. I’m happy for you.

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  65. Absolutely, Bella, I am certainly not a victim. I am a survivor.

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  66. I have to say to you Drolma, as I try keep my own victims of abuse list up to date, that I do not consider you as a victim of abuse. Maybe you are a victim of your circumstances. If you had a happy marriage, I don’t think you would have been so ready to abandon it, for anything. You sound like you were a bit isolated person, living life with kids – and then something *big* came along.

    I also spoke about the your situation with my non-Buddhist friends, and they don’t consider you a victim either.

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  67. And Bella, Jill said to Jack, “Prove that waterboarding is torture. Give evidence”

    And Jack replied, “If you can’t recognize torture and humiliation from how your heart recoils, then there is absolutely nothing more to discuss.”

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  68. Yes, Bella, and Jack and Jill went up the hill and if only they hadn’t gone up that hill, Jack would not have fallen and broken his crown, but he can’t blame the hill and he can’t blame Jill so it must be that he fell in love, that must be the reason he fell down and even Christians fall down so we can’t blame Buddhists can we?????

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  69. Of course I’m not happy about her experience.

    Could you for one minute just quit demonizing SR in your minds?

    If Drolma had gone to some Christian based group – where she would have had her first religious / spiritual experiences and she would have fallen for the priest. Now she would have ended up here blaming the priest that shook his head for her, because the priest didn’t agree on her fantasies and her choices about abandoning her family?

    I can imagine it happening anywhere in any case where one suddenly becomes religious (it happens also in other faiths, no just in Buddhism or in Rigpa). Why else do you think there would be so many faiths? Those faiths are not completely filled with people who are extremely rational and logical.

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  70. Drolma, thankyou so much for taking the time to share your experience.

    many things are sadly familiar. .

    please do not take so much notice of bella, it seems she is trying to ‘shut you down’ she will continue denigrating anyone with an experience which does not directly concur with her own. ad infinitum

    I wish you all the best

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  71. Or if SR is just what he is – and he is not doing something specifically for YOU or against YOU? He is not doing magical tricks to make you go ***.

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  72. Or useful as advice to a lama to know that his approach needs to be overhauled. His approach must be safe for all who enter the door.

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  73. Drolma’s experience can be useful as an advice for some people not to be too intensely involved and just slow down.

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  74. Dialologueireland, if there are thousands of people and a few offended ones, then is it a turmoil in a cup? It’s not for the person of course, but in general? I can feel sorry for one individual who have suffered – but I can still object a generalized view over individual experience or a few individual experiences. If you read stories you can also see (or at least I can) when someone is swept away from their feet while other people might not, so there are personal characteristics also at play.

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  75. How long is a piece of string?

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  76. Note Bella how you always start a new post by saying how sorry you are but…….

    I’m sorry that you have experienced such a turmoil. I didn’t have. Surely I have had my heart opened by him like many do. But I could share that experience with others, so it didn’t make me think I am special.

    You do it so routinely now but your crocodile tears are a relativisation strategy to actually tell the person it is a storm in a tea cup.
    It is not about you, just read it you do not have comment every time someone speaks… However, as always we will defend your right to do so and if it is off topic you will go into the Spillover!

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  77. Throwing in VAGUE accusations and generalizations prevent any critical reader from analyzing any event. Also the lies in BTT blog prevent any real communication.

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  78. And you didn’t answer my question…

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  79. Exactly, Bella. Precisely. I could say that this is a blue car and you would deny its blueness, ask me to prove its blueness. You would use your color blindness to wave the flag of non-blueness. This is precisely, exactly, how cults are born, when the “master” can so distort our view of reality that we then turn a blind eye to the suffering of others. We then are numb to the sufferin of others.

    You’ve hit it on the head, Bella.

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  80. Public humiliation? Maybe I’m not equally sensitive that I would feel HUMILIATED because I have to move one table from one place to another.

    Also, my school/University teacher has told me in public multiple times that I have to make something differently. He said it always very directly without any la-di-daa talk: “Change this and that!” I never felt that he was unkind, even though some other students felt like that. He was the best teacher I ever had. I knew he thought that I could do it better and we had that trust. I only know that during the time he taught me I have learned more than with any other teacher (in my profession). The other teachers just preferred to talk BS in the teacher’s room about the students, I guess.

    Could you please describe in detail what you consider humiliating? An exact event, people involved, what was said by each member?

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  81. And Bella, as for your comments regarding “falling in love with SR” I remember clearly SR himself saying, “Devotion to your master is like falling in love– only better.” Does he still say that?

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  82. In this country (the US), the phenomena of “hazing” has become a matter of grave concern in colleges, the military and athletic groups. Cornell University is running a campaign against hazing and on their website, they ask students to consider the following questions about initiation rites in their groups:

    • Does the activity involve mental distress such as humiliation or intimidation?
    • Does it involve physical abuse (e.g., sleep deprivation)?
    • Is there a significant risk of injury or a question of safety?
    • Would you have any reservations describing the activity to your parents or a university official?
    • Is alcohol involved?
    • Would you be worried if the activity was shown on the evening news?

    If the answer to any of the above questions is “Yes,” the activity is probably hazing.”

    A significant feature of hazing is that there are usually passive bystanders and the process involves either explicit or implicit initiation into the group. Some historical cases of hazing are quite horrifying, but as a Cornell University representative recently observed on a public radio interview, even the most mild cases of hazing can be deeply traumatizing to a vulnerable victim. His observation is that both victims, bystanders and family members can have psychological vulnerabilities, such as a history of childhood abuse or suicidal ideation, that are triggered by the hazing experience.

    Bella: Would you or other members of Rigpa feel comfortable showing SR’s public humiliation of students on the evening news? My family members were shocked to read what I wrote above. Even though they had lived through it with me, somehow the true reality had become blurred. One of my daughters commented yesterday, “Mum, he’s really mean.”

    Isn’t it mean to humiliate another human being in public? Isn’t it mean to subject passive onlookers to the public humiliation? Isn’t it just plain mean? Isn’t Buddhism about being kind, decent human beings????? And Bella, before you start talking about “wrathfulness” you need to stop and ask yourself about the slippery slope we’re on when we find new words (e.g. wrath) to define mean. Brevik has a lot of fancy words to justify his killing of innocent children. In this discussion, perhaps it’s safer to let mean be mean. And hazing is hazing.

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  83. You said he shook his head to you. Maybe he knew what was on your mind and he gave you an answer. I hope you had had time to get to know people so your own experiences wouldn’t have taken you over.

    I don’t know how he could help you or somebody else who had their feet wept away as if they were in love. At least he didn’t try to approach you – and abuse you.

    “I am not one to jump on bandwagons and witch hunts—nor would I ever simply believe these stories without verification.”

    I guess so, but a huge life change in a year because you ‘kind of fell in love with another man’ without having a personal relationship with him. If you had stuck around a bit longer, maybe your view about the events and experiences had changed.

    I’m sorry that you have experienced such a turmoil. I didn’t have. Surely I have had my heart opened by him like many do. But I could share that experience with others, so it didn’t make me think I am special.

    During retreats, where I have been in Europe over the 10 years, there have been group discussions about questions and those questions have been given to Rinpoche. It just doesn’t work if everybody wanted to discuss everything all the time with him: which is the desire of us all, not just you. In those groups I did talk personally too with the instructor – and those people have really supported me and helped me in what ever I had going on. I also had millions of questions to him during the first years and I only spoke about them with a close friend of mine. Sooner or later I got my answers – and if I didn’t, I sent him a piece of paper where I had written down my question.

    One year is short in order to get to know him or Rigpa. There might be some instructor who cannot explain emptiness or your question was many sided and not so clear. There are also very good instructors, especially in Europe where those instructors are often people who have been there for 20-40 years.

    I’m sorry for your experiences. I hope people would engage with each other, so overwhelming experiences wouldn’t stay overwhelming. SR always teaches and emphasizes grounding – and not those experiences what you described.

    Maybe holding the questions in your hearts is not a good way in your case. I will tell somebody about your experience or tell them to read it from here. I have gotten answers to my questions either from him, from an instructor or from the teachings.

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