Gary Beesley Buddhist scholar forced to withdraw ‘A Cuckoo in the Peacock Palace’

Dear Colleagues

It is with sincere regret that I write to inform you that, due to the threat of legal action from the New Kadampa Tradition, and in light of the inadequacies of UK libel law, I have been forced to withdraw my forthcoming book, ‘A Cuckoo in the Peacock Palace: The Decline of Tradition in 21st Century Western Buddhism and the Rise of the New Kadampa Tradition’ from publication.’
I appreciate that many of you will be very disappointed by this decision, a disappointment that I share with you from the very depths of my heart. However, as a Buddhist layman with a wife and children, I must place the short and long term well being of my family at the very fore of my considerations. Having raised myself up from poverty through dedication, hard work and the blessings of the Buddhas, I could not bear to impose an undeserved life of poverty on my wife and children when I leave this world. Therefore, for the sake of my family, as well as the good name of the Dharma, I have made this difficult, indeed heart wrenching decision. The NKTs legal representative kindly reminded me that, as Buddhists it is very important that we try to resolve our problems in a peaceful manner. I hope the withdrawal of the book is an indication of my intention to observe such advice in my dealings with others from now on.
With respect and sincere regret for any hurt or disappointment I may have caused.
Yours in the Dharma
The layman Gary Beesley

http://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2010/05/12/a-cuckoo-in-the-peacock-palace-by-gary-beesley/

DIALOGUE IRELAND STATEMENT OF SUPPORT:
We were very sorry to hear the news of the withdrawal of the book. This raises great issues of free speech and reminds the Director of an experience he had in 1996. Jon Caven Atack, author of “A piece of blue sky,” had his book destroyed by Scientology. He had to withdraw from all forms of commentary and it also resulted in his family breaking up. So we understand what Gary has written. We appeal to all world wide to rise to his support and to consider ways to address this crisis of free speech. To misquote J. F. Kennedy, Ask not what your freedom can do for you, but what it can do for Gary. Here in Ireland where we have a written constitution we decided to sell the book here in Ireland. We went into the court and told Scientology to lodge £50,000 to defend their position after they threatened me with ruin. Our barrister was Adrian Hardiman currently one of our Supreme Court Justices. We call on all right thinking people to stand up and be counted on this issue.
MIKE GARDE
Director of Dialogue Ireland
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263 Responses

  1. From the organisation that shouted so loudly about religious freedom, unbelievable.
    Gutted for you Gary.
    Rest assured that the truth will prevail

  2. Commiserations Gary. It seems that criticism of any faction based in Tibetan Buddhism is blocked by one means or another. What do we deduce from this? Suggestions and speculation welcome!

  3. Did the Dalai Lama threaten the NKT/WSS with legal action when they published ‘A Great Deception’? I dont think so.
    The NKT organises protests for’ relgious freedom’ then supress any criticism of themselves, restricting everyones basic right to freedom of speech-double standards.
    And so the cult of the NKT scores another legal victory; as far as morals are concerned however, they clearly lost this particular battle. So, they have won neither the battle nor the war.
    I sincerely hope this deliberate attack on freedom of speech causes NKT followers to realise the nipocrisy of their leaders-at minimum, they just created an undeground cult classic.
    Once again, English libel laws have protected perpetrators of evil and prevented the English people from learning the truth about this demonic organization

  4. English libel laws protect those who need protecting. Please don’t mistake being able to publish a book full of rumours and internet gossip for free speech! Q: Where does free
    speech end and libel begin? A: When what’s being said is not the truth and it damages the reputation of particular persons or an organization.

    From Wikipedia:

    Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. It is usually, but not always,[1] a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant).

    The reason why the Dalai Lama didn’t sue over ‘A Great Deception’ is because every word is referenced to third party publications and is true! You can’t sue if someone publishes the verifiable true about a particular issue. The Dalai Lama is guilty as charged and so there will be no case brought against the Western Shugden Society. The Dalai Lama would attract more attention to the truth if he did this. He’s just sitting tight and hoping it all goes away.

  5. Dear Wisdom Moon
    First of all, thanks for linking the WSS and the NKT, though according to propaganda, no such relationship exists.
    The reason the Dalai Lama brings no case is because he is a genuine Buddhist.

    I agree with you that legal action attracts attention to the truth. That is exaclty what the NKT have done by setting out to ban this book. What a spectacular own goal. Talk about double standards-you want freedom but dont want others to have it. How is it spelt? H i p o c r i s y?

  6. I loved your quote from Wikipedia-its such a reliable source. Have you seen the NKT page-so accurate.
    And as for “Please don’t mistake being able to publish a book full of rumours and internet gossip for free speech”, since neither of us has even seen the book, how can you possibly know that?Are you psychic or something?

  7. This is great news for continued harmony amongst Buddhist traditions.

    The book was absurd, actually, as its major premise was that the NKT were in bed with the Chinese, and there is no shred of fact in that.

  8. How do you know this was the major premise? Another NKT psychic?

  9. Wisdom Moon

    Most of what the NKT write is spin and this is no exception. No author in their right mind would spend their time writing hundreds of pages on something that they knew would ultimately not be published because it was fictional and libelous.

    On the contrary, they would make damned sure that their assertions could be qualified on the basis of sound evidence, even before approaching a publisher. No, the reason this has been pulled is obviously because Beesley is a one man, self financing show and the NKT are a multi million pound business.

    The Americans call it ‘libel terrorism’, an immoral practice that is right at home in the UK where the libel laws are completely outdated.

    Only today, in an article in the UK Independent newspaper entitled “Libel court ‘is not the right place for faith disputes'” the defendant in one such action which was thrown out of court,stated, ” “This exhausting battle to clear my name has cost me in excess of £90,000 and yet it took Justice Eady only three hours to throw out the case,” …”It seems [Baba] Jeet Singh hoped I would be forced to back out of the case as the costs mounted, which begs the question: should freedom of speech in this country only be available to the rich who have means to defend themselves in court?”

    If one simply substitutes ‘Jeet Singh’ with the acronym NKT, it is completely obvious why this important and informative work which would have clearly been in the public interest has had to be pulled.Not because it was hearsay, but because the author could not afford to fight the NKT via the outdated UK legal system.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/libel-court-is-not-the-right-place-for-faith-disputes-1975591.html

    The NKT should be deeply ashamed. They are clearly nothing more than wealthy bullies obsessed with reputation who will stop at nothing to continue their ‘Great Deception’ and have no concerns about treading on anyone who gets in their way. This is a sad day for Buddhism and democracy in the West.

    In time however, the laws will change and then the NKT will reap the poisonous fruits of their evil actions. Already in the US, we have Rachel’s law, which places the burden of proof on the plaintiff and not the defendant. The UKs government are looking at changing the libel laws as we speak. So it is not a case of ‘ if’ but ‘when’.

    Perhaps it would do the NKT some good to look at the utter devastation the Catholic Church is experiencing in Ireland-Why is that? Are they disintegrating because of the abuse? No, they are disintegrating because of the concerted attempt to cover up that abuse, no matter what the cost, no matter how immoral the acts.

    Today, it is the Catholics. Tomorrow, who knows?

  10. Hi, this is Wisdom Moon. Whoever owns this blog is not allowing me to post responses to your points. I’m trying to circumvent the system.

    Moderator edit
    The admin would like it known that this individual is deliberately lying about being censored.
    End moderator edit

    I’m sorry you have such a negative mind towards the NKT but you need to examine why this is so. Buddhism teaches that all our problems come from our own mind so there you will find the solution to your problem.

    From my own experience, I know that the intentions of those who are trying to spread Kadam Dharma are compassionate and good. If people have genuine concerns about NKT, I think they should address their concerns to the New Kadampa Truth page as NKT has said it genuinely wants to prevent problems and learn from mistakes. No doubt this is what was referred to in the letter to Gary when it said that differences should be able to be settled peacefully.

    There are good people in the NKT and people are receiving great benefit from the tradition and those who are trying to help others by giving Dharma and running centres. People make mistakes (who doesn’t?), and it’s possible that people are harmed because of these but surely this should be resolvable without demonising the tradition and those who are genuinely working to help others?

    May everyone be happy and may all suffering cease.

  11. … NKT has said it genuinely wants to prevent problems and learn from mistakes.

    So how do legal threats to prevent information about such problems fit into this?

  12. “I’m sorry you have such a negative mind towards the NKT but you need to examine why this is so.”

    Didnt the Buddha say something about looking at your own mind?

    “this is what was referred to in the letter to Gary when it said that differences should be able to be settled peacefully.”

    Oh, you mean a letter which threatened dire consequences if the author didnt comply? Very ‘peaceful’

    Two very clear reasons to demonstrate that the NKTs approach is totally ‘un buddhist’

    Bullying and threatening, while claiming the moral high ground is so common nowadays. And I mean common.

  13. Dear Wisdom Loon
    Im not quite sure whether this is an attempt to impose a siege mentality on your colleagues or just an indication that you suffer from one (see below)
    However, it is not the innocent and good people who have been duped by kelsang Gyatso who are under attack.
    Rather it is the reactionary and fundamnetalist mentality of Pabongka and his cronies that is the object of contempt. This is the mentality that justified the murder of Reting Rinpoche (by Taktra, Pabongka’s close disciple) the imprisonment of Gendun Choepel, one of Tibet’s greates luminaries, by the same, and ultimately, according to the Dalai Lama, was responsible for delivering Tibet into the hands of the Chinese.
    While Kelsang Gyatsd spouts words like ‘non-political’, his mentality is clealry the culmination of this perverse faction and is clearly political-Who else stands outside the Dalai Lama’s teachings, opportunistically ranting propaganda about ‘human rights’ and ‘relgious freedom’?
    No, it is not the innocent people of the NKT who have been duped into thinking that the NKT is a non-political Buddhist ‘tradition’ that is under attack. It sis the not so subtle attempt by Kelsang Gyatso to impose the fundamentalist mentality of Pabongka and his cronies on Western Buddhism. W dont want, and neither would NKT followers if they had been told about Kelsdang Gyatso’s political forbears antics before they had invested so much of themselves in the glorious organization.But truth never was of primary importance when it came to ruthless self promotion.

    Siege mentality is a shared feeling of victimization and defensiveness. It is a state of mind whereby one believes that one is being constantly attacked, oppressed, or isolated and make one frightened of surrounding people. This can cause a state of being overly fearful leading to a defensive attitude. [1]

    Although the term evolved from real sieges, today it may refers to persecution feelings by anyone in a group that views itself as a threatened minority. This can be used in the field of sports, where coaches or managers often create a siege mentality in their players by highlighting an environment of hostility from outside the club (whether or not the hostility is real or exaggerated doesn’t matter). Siege mentalities are particularly common in business, the result of competition or downsizing. Some religious groups may have this paradigm, particularly if they are not traditional mainstream groups. Dictatorships have been known to encourage this point of view among their own people, since it justifies the continuance of those in power

  14. According to a letter from Kelsang Gyatso (see http://www.nktworld.org/Lucy.html) the Admin Director of KMC Florida resigned saying:

    “Since the beginning of our involvement with the NKT we have been repeatedly told that the NKT was not involved in politics. Now that the NKT has opened up with its political position and begun demonstrating I can no longer be a part of the organization. This complete lack of honesty about the NKT’s involvement in Tibetan politics is the reason for my departure.”

    So not only does Kelsang not tell the truth, he appears to deliberately hide it.

  15. Lib Dem Deputy Prime Minister Clegg announced today ‘This government is going to break up concentrations of power and hand power back to people, because that is quite simply how we can build a society that is fair. …we will repeal all of the intrusive and unnecessary laws that inhibit your freedom….Take citizens’ rights: eroded by the quiet proliferation of laws that quash dissent, limit freedom. …we’ll review libel laws so that we can better protect freedom of speech…
    Power will be yours. That is new politics.”

    Interestingly, it was Liberal Democrat MPs who asked several questions about the NKT in the English Parliament under the last government.
    Ask not for whom the bell tolls NKT; It tolls for thee

  16. Dear Moderator,

    Apologies to you. I tried to post several times yesterday under the name ‘Wisdom Moon’ and the email address I used before, but my posts weren’t showing up on the blog. I kept getting the message that I had already posted those comments, but nothing was showing up.

    Maybe there’s some kind of technical error? Sorry to imply you were deliberately blocking me, I had no explanation for what was going on. When I changed the name and email, it worked.

  17. http://www.nktworld.org/squash.html

    Looks like this is going to make things much worse for the NKT, as people predicted.

  18. At http://nbowatch.terapad.com/ it says that the NKT have resigned from the UK Network of Buddhist Organizations because they were unwilling to sign an undertaking that they said restricted their freedom of speech. Now they have basically banned a book, because they dont want anyone to hear what the author says. So they want freedom of speech but they dont want anyone else to have it? Isnt that just a little bit hypocritical? Arent alarm bells ringing in anyone else’s head?

  19. You know, I ‘ve got a sneaking suspicion that they have been told to go quiet on this (remember those old submarine movies?) News is already spreading across the web.Maybe they realized they screwed up and are keeping their heads down, seeing if it goes away.

  20. This one isnt gonna go away though is it. I have friends who have been in the nkt for many years, emailing me with doubts and questions about the reasons i left. Their actions with regards to this book are just so unbelievable hypocritical, that even the most blinded and brainwashed are demanding a go of the periscope. Im sure not all will follow the command to dive. Maybe the effects of the ban on this book will, in the long term, be more effective in exposing them, than if it had been published.
    They will collapse in on themselves, maybe not with the bang many people hoped for, probably with more of a drawn out whimper.

  21. Youve Been Slapped!

    A strategic lawsuit against public participation (SLAPP) is a lawsuit that is intended to censor, intimidate and silence critics by burdening them with the cost of a legal defense until they abandon their criticism or opposition.

    The plaintiff does not normally expect to win the lawsuit. The plaintiff’s goals are accomplished if the defendant succumbs to fear, intimidation, mounting legal costs or simple exhaustion and abandons the criticism. A SLAPP may also intimidate others from participating in the debate. A SLAPP is often preceded by a legal threat.

  22. Where i come from, if you go around slapping people then your going to get slapped right back off all those people youve been slappin. That can be a serious slappin’ !
    ” non- violence never solved anything ” Montgomery Burns

  23. Doh!

  24. There is a good deal of nonsense being talked by the NKT and Shugden worshippers at their page ‘Dorje Shugden . com’

    http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=724.msg6901#msg6901

    They seem to think the reason Beesley withdrew the book was because it was libelous. If you read his letter on the reason for pulling the book (see above), it boils down to the issue of financial intimidation, not truth. As it says above, a “(SLAPP) is a lawsuit that is intended to censor, intimidate and silence critics by burdening them with the cost of a legal defense until they abandon their criticism or opposition”

    That is obviously why it was pulled.Trying to convince people that it was pulled becuase it was libelous is totally disingenuous and manipulative.

    The other reason they offer is that he wrote previously about the FWBO.(“He’s got form”) Did the FWBO sue Beesley for writing about them? I mean they too have millions of pounds and he is just one individual. No, the reason the FWBO didnt sue is because they knew everything he said was evidenced and would stand up in a court of law. Similalry, the NKT know that the “Cuckoo in the Peacock Palace” contains information that is true (writers dont bother making allegations unless they have evidence unless they are toally stupid). They threatened to sue because they are frightened of people knowing the truth and becuase they knew they could bully the author financially under English libel laws, libel laws which are the laughing stock of free thinkers everywhere.

    The conclusion for me is that the book was pulled because Beesley couldnt afford to match the legal costs the NKT case would have required. He has been bullied into keeping quiet. With both the NKT and English law it clearly is all about money and not truth. Shame on them for their supression of free speech and shame on them for their cynical manipuation of the English libel system

  25. Checked it, ‘All the reasons why it is important to supress any information that is critical of the NKT’+ various other pieces of sophistry to justify abuse othe Uk’s libel laws.

    One of the major contributors is ‘Empty Mountains’, who is already renowned for his dedication to eradicating all and any critical information that appears about the NKT on Wikipedia, usually within a couple of hours. The edit history of Wikipedia is great-you can compare information removed with its replacement. Check it when EM appears. A real spokesman for free speech, as long is it never deviates from the party line.

    I think you have spotted the emerging tactic though. “It was banned because it was libelous”. Having read the author’s letter, it was clear to me that he had been financially bullied out of existence. Who has the got the time to take on the countiry’s best libel lawyers after all. He appears to be just a bloke with kids.

    I just cant believe all the stuff about religious freedom and human rights that they have gone on about and now they do this. Its a complete contradiction.

    Buddhism looks like its become all about money and power, at least for some. God help anyone who stands in their way.

  26. The funniest thing is the line from the abbot of one of the Shugden temples in India-“The thought of tending one’s friend and suppressing one’s enemy should not be harboured at any cost. Why? Because such thoughts go against the Dharma”.
    Sound bit of advice for the NKT to think about or what? I guess that means even the Tibetans would think the NKT ‘babies in the Dharma’ are fanatics, even those who follow their deity. Remember-“Such thoughts go against the Dharma” Still what would he know?-Geshe-la knows best. (suspend all personal judgement at this point-‘I am just a bug. Oh please save me Geshe-la’)

  27. THE HYPOCRISY & DOUBLE STANDARDS OF THE NKT BOOK BAN -‘DON’T DO WHAT WE DO, DO WHAT WE SAY’.

    In light of the recent ban of Gary Beesley’s book, ‘A Cuckoo in the Peacock Palace’ by the NKT, an action which many have argued totally contradicts basic principles of freedom of speech, two very interesting letters have emerged on New Kadampa Survivors which demonstrate clearly the extent of the hypocrisy which is rife in the cult.

    Both letters are to a group called the Network of Buddhist OrganizationS, a group which tried to prevent its members from engaging in public criticism of other Buddhists by making its members (one of which is the NKT) sign an undertaking not to do so.

    The first response, from the ‘Third Buddha’ himself, states, “NKT leaders cannot impede their (NKT followers) freedom of speech; this is not a Tibetan feudal society.” The second, from the NKT Board of Directors, states that the NKT cannot accept such a rule as it “directly violates democratic rights of free speech and action”

    So the founder and directors of the NKT are of the firm belief that we live in a world where freedom of speech is a democratic right for all and that any attempt to suppress said freedom is akin to actions which would be more at home in a ‘feudal society’.

    So, if that’s the case, how come they banned ‘A Cuckoo in the Peacock Palace’?

    Some of the reasons for their ban on the book emerged on the website Dorjeshugden.com. Read on, in light of the above pronouncements about free speech, and see if you spot any subtle differences in the opinions expressed by NKT webwatchers.

    “The NKT kept quiet for ten years about all the crap that was thrown at it. Enough’s enough – people’s spiritual paths are being needlessly damaged through the strong encouragement of doubts tending away from the truth & plain old deluded doubt. Having something in print lends it some credibility so this book would have had extra power to hurt people. Protecting your reputation is not necessarily a worldly concern (Geshe Kelsang has been pretty fearless in putting his reputation on the line repeatedly to protect the lineage), it can be done without attachment in order to benefit others. How do we know the book was tripe? The guy’s got form, lots of it. & the Amazon write up was kind of revealing in that regard. I believe the production of that book would have brought no benefit & much harm. There will be critical books printed in the future about the NKT, but out right insanely biased lies have no value, especially now. Is that a value judgement? Yup. One the NKT is confident the courts would agree with. Should anyone be allowed to print absolutely anything they want in the name of free speech? English libel law doesn’t think so & neither do I.”

    “I agree with you. If a book filled with calumnies about your Lama, your Deity and your lineage can be avoided, it should be. If there are legitimate ways to stop such obstacles for the mind of others to arise then it´s very good to do it. I would say that not to stop such harmful book to appear would be a mistake. Lies, lies, lies … basta! The nazis used as astute propaganda weapon the notion that you only need to repeat a lie enough number of times for it to become a truth. Also, in the world, there is this unfair view that if something bad is said of somebody … then there must be some good reason behind it. So again, well done NKT lawyers!”

    “The reason why the book should not be published is because it contains false information that defames the reputation of the New Kadampa Tradition, such as the NKT is in league with the PRC. Where does freedom of speech end and being able to publish defamatory lies begin? This is the reason why the libel laws exist.”

    “Allowing lies to be spread in the name of ‘free speech’ is not helpful. Anyone can say, for example, ‘Dorje Shugden is a demon’ or ‘NKT is in league with the Chinese Government against the Dalai Lama’. They are free to say this, but since it’s a wrong view, it’s not helpful to spread it around. The various accusations made against Dorje Shugden, NKT and the WSS by people who are misinformed or even malicious, as Middleway said, affects people’s faith and therefore interferes with people’s spiritual lives. We can therefore say that books containing these false claims are maras and every effort should be made to prevent such obstacles from arising.”

    So, the book was banned because it was ‘all lies’ and could destroy people’s faith; apparently such claims are ‘maras’ (demons) and the repetition of them is a tactic employed by Nazis to undermine their enemies. I guess Beesley is a lying demonic Nazi then-thank goodness they banned his book.

  28. Excellent. And, as I said, the issue of financial bullying in UK libel courts, the obvious real reason the book got pulled, is totally ignored and the myth that its content was the reason is perpetuated for all visitors to that particular website, the vast majority of them clearly being NKT followers. Thank you the Ministry of Information.

    When it comes to Free Speech and the NKT, Orwell’s phrase, “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others” springs directly to mind. Still I guess when youre dealing with a ‘lying demonic Nazi’ you have to bend the rules a little.

  29. Not many folk around to defend this hypocrisy at the moment eh ?

  30. Like I said above, they are keeping radio silence. It even hints at this on the DS page: “Anyway, that’s all I’m gonna say.” For sure they know the real reason for the book ban was the money thing and not libel. So they are keeping webchat to a minimum to keep the search results down-conversation is very definitely closed on the DS site. Even without them talking though, there already about 150 different references to it on one popular search engine and its rising every day-Ive even found several sites that arent featured in the search results yet. So they can keep as quiet as they want. Like you said, this one isnt going to go away, is it?

  31. Beesley should feel comforted that the NKT are calling him a liar and a Nazi. Thats what they call the Dalai Lama too!

  32. First read

    “Allowing lies to be spread in the name of ‘free speech’ is not helpful. Anyone can say, for example, ‘Dorje Shugden is a demon’ or ‘NKT is in league with the Chinese Government against the Dalai Lama’. They are free to say this, but since it’s a wrong view, it’s not helpful to spread it around. The various accusations made against Dorje Shugden, NKT and the WSS by people who are misinformed or even malicious, as Middleway said, affects people’s faith and therefore interferes with people’s spiritual lives. We can therefore say that books containing these false claims are maras and every effort should be made to prevent such obstacles from arising.”

    Now switch it around:

    “Allowing lies to be spread in the name of ‘free speech’ is not helpful. Anyone can say, for example, ‘Dorje Shugden is a Buddha’ or ‘Dalai Lama is in league with Western Buddhist groups against the NKT’. They are free to say this, but since it’s a wrong view, it’s not helpful to spread it around. The various accusations made against the Dalai Lama by people who are misinformed or even malicious affects people’s faith and therefore interferes with people’s spiritual lives. We can therefore say that books containing these false claims are maras and every effort should be made to prevent such obstacles from arising.”

    What s the difference between these two statements?

    NKT webcensors believe the former statement to be perfectly reasonable (they made it!). On the other hand, no one in the free thinking world has voiced the second, arrogant and malignant opinion and no one from the Dalai Lama camp attempted to prevent publication of the aptly titled ‘Great Deception’ So who has the moral high ground? And who really holds onto arrogant malignant views?

  33. People should be careful what sites they visit when it comes to the NKT-here is one comment that demonstrates what one of their seniormost web censors gets up to-
    “emptymountains
    September 12, 2008 at 2:38 am
    Tenzin Peljor visited the DharmaProtector.org website today from IP address 79.171.63.246. My website statistics list the referring URL as “westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/wp-admin/edit-comments.php,” which only the administrator of the “Western Shugden Society – Unlocked” blog would be logged in to.”

    So these people are checking through peoples IP addresses to id them-thats so dodgy-so Scientology. Be careful reading stuff and then posting anywhere-the NKT are watching!

  34. So these people are checking through peoples IP addresses to id them

    I do the same thing. Am I nefarious and Scientology-like too? Think about it.

  35. I thought and I guess you do. However, the question is, for what purpose? if one does this to expose immoral practices, that is understandable and proper.

    However, if you engage in such acts to curry public favour against an individual and to add to the file that you are building on him/her so as to launch into a personal attack on them so as to distract from the issue itself, ( a well known Scientologist tactic and one the NKT are actively invovlved in in the case of the Tenzin Peljor above (http://www.newkadampatruth.org/behind-the-lies/#a1), this is different.

    Im therefore glad you asked.

    Here is an example of using such data to expose cult lies. Here, an ex follower of Kelsang searched through meta tags on Western Shugden Society posts to demonstrate that their activities were being carried out by NKT followers.

    The motive was not to attack individuals but to expose the two tier truth system that exists in the NKT/WSS (two totally separate entities according to both), such an attitude being prevalent in cultish organizations-hope the difference between the use of the information is obvious.

    “In the beginning NKT tried everything to avoid to acknowledge that WSS was set up by the NKT. As it is known to New Kadampa Survivors members, Geshe Kelsang wrote in an email to his followers I personally will organise demonstrations against the Dalai Lama directly. I requested Kelsang Pema and Kelsang Thubchen to do this job for me and they have accepted. It is clean clear that the structure of the Charity Trust New Kadampa Tradition was used to set up the campaign. When a former NKT member investigated he found out that some media data in the files refer to “Tharpa”, a NKT enterprise, which publishes only Geshe Kelsang Gyatso’s books, and to a translator of Kelsang Gyatso’s books in Spain.”

    None of this information was used to attack the individuals in Spain or Germany, but only to demonstrate the double standards operating in the organization-the same double standards that allow them to claim freedom of speech to demonstrate and publish polemical diatribes, while they simultaneously threaten all those who threaten to expose their activities to the wider public, as is the case with “The Cuckoo” book they have banned.

  36. The difference, ultimately, is whether the information is used to provide evidence of corruption, immorality and cult like behavior or whether it is used to gather information for ad hominem (against the person and not the issues) attacks that are used, by cults and New Religious Movements to draw attention away from the many controversies that surround them. The former is moral behaviour, the latter, devious and immoral.

  37. Here is an interesting post from an NKT website that some observers of this page may already have seen. It continues the lies about the Beesley book being withdrawn because it was ‘full of lies’ rather than financial bullying. More interestingly, it shows the manner in which Shugden is routinely practiced by NKT insiders, namell as a destroyer of those who dare oppose them

    “I am hoping to indirectly show that “strong reaction” does not equal anger. If having a strong reaction were the same as anger, we would be doomed to always be mild, which would preclude us from engaging in the controlling and wrathful actions that are sometimes required.”
    “So what if (NKT) lawyers were engaged (to supress the publication of a book about the NKT, “The Cuckoo in the Peacock Palace” by Garry Beesley)? Previous posters have elucidated well how allowing people to lie and slander is not good for anyone, so why not force them to stop doing illegal things like libel by using the laws of our country?”
    “Mr Beesely is avoiding being sued for libel knowing he has no case. This is no practice of offering the victory, this is a predator being scared off by the return of a parent. He is being assisted in avoiding the creation of truly miserable karma for himself. There is no doubt he has created a great deal of painful karma through his actions.
    much respect and best wishes”,
    cc”

    “Mr Beesely is avoiding being sued for libel knowing he has no case”
    Actually, “Mr Beesely is avoiding being sued for libel knowing he has no MONEY” There’s a not very subtle difference the above correspondent doesnt seem to have picked up on, a fundamental flaw in the seemingly wonderful “the laws of our country” which allows large corporations to bully individuals out of exposing the truth about them by suing in the libel courts here,in English courts, defence becomes impossible because of financial constraints and the inability to meet costs. Consequently,the larger, far wealthier corporation usually triumphs. Its a form of financial bullying that has made UK libel laws a laughing stock for many years, outdated legislation that even the new government has commented and is in the process of repealing.

    Now to the second statement, “this is a predator being scared off by the return of a parent.”

    Assuming Mr Beesely (sic) is the predator, who is the returning parent? Could it be the name of Dorje Shugden is being invoked here, to assist those “engaging in the controlling and wrathful actions that are sometimes required.” (In relation to onew own mind, rather than external enemies, of course)

    But we were all told that Shugden was like Francis of Assisi, that praying to him was like “saying the Lord’s prayer, a simple prayer to invoke love and compassion”?

    The wrathful Shugden, the slayer of enemies of Gelugpa fundamentalism is myth, according to the NKT, the contents of the Yellow Book which portray Shugden as a vengeful demon who kills and maims those who oppose Gelug ‘purity’ being nothing more than “superstition” according to the Third Buddha, Kelsang Gyatso (Despite the fact his root guru ordered its writing????)

    So, do we have here an insider doctrine and an outsider one (a common cult characteristic) or what? It seems that the Lord’s prayer line is for public consumption and the same, old fashioned attitude towards Shugden as a wrathful vengeful ally who destroys ones opponents, the vile and despotic attitude that existed in the reactionary Gelug establishment of pre invasion Tibet actually continues to be enshrined in the private, insider doctrine of the NKT where, whenever his precious followers are embattled, he comes back to defend them, like a ‘”returning parent” , driving of threatening “predators”
    So Dark Ages, this modern Buddhism perfectly suited to the needs of present day Westerners.

  38. Chilling effect or Chilling Effects may refer to:
    Chilling effect (term), also called libel chill, situation where speech or conduct is suppressed by fear of penalization at the interests of an individual or group.

    Alternative definition of libel chill:
    “Libel chill is a classic tactic undertaken by an organization that wishes to silence its enemies. It consists of threatening to file libel actions that would be expensive to defend, not in order to win damages, but to prevent some truth from being revealed.”

    Chilling effect or Chilling Effects may refer to:
    Chilling effect (term), also called libel chill, situation where speech or conduct is suppressed by fear of penalization at the interests of an individual or group.

  39. Previously I wrote

    “they are keeping webchat to a minimum to keep the search results down-conversation is very definitely closed on the DS site. Even without them talking though, there already about 150 different references to it on one popular search engine and its rising every day-Ive even found several sites that arent featured in the search results yet. So they can keep as quiet as they want. Like you said, this one isnt going to go away, is it?”

    This week the same search engine found 799 sites with the books name on them. Radio silence isnt working.

  40. May i suggest that those of us who have concerns about this cult, contact our local Waterstones bookstore and explain our concerns. This cult are promoting themselves over the next few weeks in these stores. I’m sure Waterstones are unaware of this organisations tactics. The NKTs publications don’t really make it obvious that they are in fact the nkt.
    Also, i don’t really think it matters that they have gone to ground. This recent banning activity of theirs has flushed loads of stuff out. At last things are coming on top for them.

  41. Seen this http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2005/jan/12/books.newmedia

    “Waterstone’s is, after all, a bookseller, whose stock in trade is the purveying of opinion, not all of it palatable to those concerned…..Five years ago, an award-winning advertising campaign for Waterstone’s focused on the importance of freedom of speech. One image featured a burned book with the slogan: “Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot & Mao Tse-Tung were right about one thing. The Power of Books.”

    Glad they mentioned Hitler, thus confirming that Beesley’s “A Cuckoo in the Peacock Palace” was nothing more than Nazi propaganda! Lets stand up with Waterstones for Free Speech, unless we dont like what it says! Come on Waterstones, freedom of speech for cults, but not their critics?

  42. I just checked waterstones on google, along with the phrase kadampa. My, my, they do have a healthy relationship dont they? What with Waterstones being bastions of free speech, I feel sure theyd be interested to know all about book bans, anti Dalai Lama protests, politicians asking questions in Parliament etc..

    What a sad day, when such a reputable book chain acts as a platform for the propounding of hatred in the name of Buddha.

    Sometimes I wonder whether the Taliban should sue Thurman for blackening their name via his association of them with the NKT and Shugden

  43. Let’s listen to Gary in his own words:

    “The NKTs legal representative kindly reminded me that, as Buddhists it is very important that we try to resolve our problems in a peaceful manner. I hope the withdrawal of the book is an indication of my intention to observe such advice in my dealings with others from now on.”

    Perhaps Gary has realized that his intention was never a good one in the first place, and has decided to avoid making similar mistakes in the future. That’s what it sounds like to me, much as some of you posting here might wish otherwise.

  44. We should congratulate Gary on his humility and wisdom in being capable of learning from the compassionate advice of the NKT’s legal representative.

  45. Adam
    Perhaps Gary has been financially bullied into withdrawing the book ?
    That’s what it sounds like to me.

  46. Dear Adam
    You have very clearly (unintentionally or otherwise) adopted the NKT party line on the issue, that the book was withdrawn because of illegal, defamatory content.

    The letter from the author states “due to the threat of legal action from the New Kadampa Tradition, and in light of the inadequacies of UK libel law,” and “as a Buddhist layman with a wife and children, I must place the short and long term well being of my family at the very fore of my considerations. Having raised myself up from poverty through dedication, hard work and the blessings of the Buddhas, I could not bear to impose an undeserved life of poverty on my wife and children when I leave this world”

    This makes it clear that the reason the book was withdrawn was because of financial constraints, not legal ones.

    It is quite clear that the NKTs legal representative imposed a ‘Slapp” on the author, a ‘slapp’ being strategic lawsuit against public participation (SLAPP), a lawsuit that is intended to censor, intimidate and silence critics by burdening them with the cost of a legal defense until they abandon their criticism or opposition. This was imposed to induce libel ‘chill': “a classic tactic undertaken by an organization that wishes to silence its enemies. It consists of threatening to file libel actions that would be expensive to defend, not in order to win damages, but to prevent some truth from being revealed.”

    Your position on this issue is therefore misinformed and it is quite clear that your intention is motivated by damage limitation concerns.

    That you do not see the not very subtle ironic humour behind Beesley’s inclusion of the phrase “The NKTs legal representative kindly reminded me that, as Buddhists it is very important that we try to resolve our problems in a peaceful manner.” makes one wonder whether you might be of Germanic descent-don’t you get it? Let me explain.

    This is not the first time the NKT have told those they threaten with crippling legal action that will quite probably destroy them and their familes fanically that “As Buddhists (?) it it is very important that we try to resolve our problems in a peaceful manner.” and in the following breath threatened legal action (“peaceful”?)

    New Kadampa Survivors features another NKT letter
    which states “Because we are Buddhists (?) we need to solve our problems and misunderstandings for peaceful methods, with a good heart and an open mind” .Two sentences later, the NKT threaten legal action unless the situation the letter refers to is resolved ‘appropriately’.

    I personally (and I may be deluded here) fail to see how threatening people with legal action constitutes peaceful Buddhist behaviour. It seems to me to be totally hypocritical. Say as hypocritical as the letter from Kelsang Gyatso which states, “NKT leaders cannot impede their (NKT followers) freedom of speech; this is not a Tibetan feudal society.” or the one from the NKT Board of Directors which states that the NKT cannot accept a rule which prevents them from protesting against the Dalai Lama, as it “directly violates democratic rights of free speech and action”. If all that is genuine, how come they banned the book? Double standards? Or perhaps lies?

    Thank goodness we dont live in a feudal society where the democratic right to freedom of speech is stifled. Thank goodness we still live in a world where “problems” are resolved “peacefully” and with a good heart and an open mind”. Finally, thank goodness we live in a world where there are still good people around, ‘good hearted and open minded ‘Buddhists’ ” “to tell us how to resolve problems in a “peaceful” Buddhist fashion by imposing legal bans on anything that might expose us. By the way, Didnt the NKT protests against people ‘banning’ things?

  47. here’s a recent nice peaceful Buddhist quote from an NKT Shugden site

    Champion

    http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=01f79bd0ca6c2b721c8d3fb875eeb7c7&topic=724.45

    Quote this Anti shugden,
    We are gonna hammer that man right into the ground for his deception and lies
    We do not take lightly to Charlatan and Sorcerers
    Your man fits the ticket as both!

    A Baby Buddha even knows the difference between right and wrong
    He and his brothers, all supposed something or another
    All knew of the Nazi SS Battalion
    All knew that the speaking tools were suffering as Slaves and Serfs
    The Dalai has met his match!
    Want to talk about it
    We’ll give you One More Chance
    Before the Axe Falls on this Usurper!

  48. I cant work out if that quote is from an NKT supporter or a victim of Chinese inflammatory propaganda-What’s the difference?

    Here are two more in remarkably similar language.
    The first one was sent to a man who was subsequently brutally murdered by Shugden folowers (according to everyone else but them)

    ‘It is known to all that the Shugden Society is in Delhi. We came to Dharamsala three times. In which nunnery were you hiding then? As the saying goes, there is much knowledge which you have not seen as indeed there are many paths the donkey has not trodden. Similarly, you have not seen the hundreds of scriptures on the subject of your discussion. Poor you! Instead of writing warped compositions, you should come down to Delhi with courage and meet us as the louse meets the thumb nails. However, if your guilty conscience does not afford you the courage to come down, give us a date and we will come to you. Make your decisions’.

    Then there is the letter received by the Tibetan Government in Exile dated May 5 1996 which demanded Shugden devotee’s human rights to ‘free speech’ and worship. It warned:

    ‘….there should be no procrastination. We, in our present state of desperation, have made up our mind to resort to desperate measures if such a decision is not made. And when we do take desperate actions, you will be filled with remorse….”

    All very peaceful and compassionate, i must say, though this all sounds like Chinese propaganda, it all comes from the mouths of NKT followers and Shugden devotees.

  49. Dear JCB,

    The first statement you quoted was deliberately distorted by the TGIE. It was sent by Shugden practitioners inviting Lobsang Gyatso to debate with them regarding the Shugden issue. To my mind, it’s actually quite compassionate. It says “poor you” because Lobsang Gyatso was so poorly informed about the Shugden issue and just believed what the Dalai Lama told him. As a result, he was filled with wrong views. As they say

    you have not seen the hundreds of scriptures on the subject of your discussion.

    They are simply saying that he is ignorant of the subject of which he writes and they are willing to correct him. What’s uncompassionate about that? Rather, I think it’s very compassionate.

    For more information on how the TGIE distorted this note, please see

    http://www.dharmaprotector.org/innocent.html

    As for your desperate attempt to link NKT and Shugden practitioners with the Chinese government, poor you! It was such lies that Gary Beesley appeared to be ready to publish which is presumably why the book was stopped.

  50. “What’s uncompassionate about that? Rather, I think it’s very compassionate.” Urm, didnt they murder him afterwards? Was that compassion too?

    The letter you refer to as a “desperate attempt to link the NKT with the Chinese”, was signed by the Western Shugden Society, the NKTs political wing. Interestingly it was countersigned by the DSDCRS, the Eastern branch of the Shugden clan. Their first inaugural meeting had as its guest of honour, the Chinese ambassador to India. No links to the Chinese there then.

    Light from the moon is notoriously dim.

  51. Beesley’s book was Slapped and chilled-not full of “Great Deceptions”.

  52. Compare these two letters and ask who is lying?

    “False Accusations Against the Innocent”

    Letter from Kelsang Gyatso to the editor in response to the article ‘Cult Mystery’ that appeared in Newsweek International, the 28th of April 97, and in Newsweek USA, 5th of May 97

    “Robert Thurman is quoted as saying: “I think there’s no doubt that Shugden was behind the killings.” Of course, killing people is very bad, and I utterly condemn these appalling murders, but by reading the letter addressed to HH the Dalai Lama known as the ‘Mongoose Canine Letter’, we can clearly understand that HH the Dalai Lama has many enemies, so why are only Shugden supporters suspected?”

    Now read

    From The Times
    June 22, 2007
    Interpol on trail of Buddhist killers
    Jane Macartney in Beijing

    Interpol has issued wanted notices for two followers of a Tibetan sect accused of the ritualistic killing a decade ago of one of the Dalai Lama’s closest associates.

    “The attack, in which two students were also killed, was apparently in revenge for the Nobel peace laureate’s decision to ban the group after more than three centuries of mystic controversy.

    The Interpol Red Notices for Lobsang Chodak, 36, and Tenzin Chozin, 40, issued at the request of the Indian police, are believed to be among the first demands by another country to arrest Chinese citizens living within their own country’s borders. A Red Notice is not an arrest warrant but is a means by which Interpol notifies member nations that an individual is wanted in another country.

    The notice leaves Beijing in a difficult position since China has been an active member of Interpol, frequently turning to the organisation for help to try to capture its citizens who have fled abroad.

    Several Communist Party or government officials wanted for corruption have been returned to China in recent years. However, it is far from clear whether China will want to set a precedent by allowing its citizens to be sent abroad for trial. Yesterday China had no immediate response.

    The murders provide a rare glimpse into the complex political and religious rivalries and debates within Tibetan Buddhism and around the Dalai Lama, who has been living in exile in northern India since an abortive uprising against Chinese rule in Tibet in 1959.

    Indian police have accused Lobsang Chodak and Tenzin Chozin of stabbing Lobsang Gyatso, a close aide of the Dalai Lama and head of the Institute of Buddhist Dialectics, and two of his students on February 4, 1997, in the northern Indian town of Dharmsala.

    They were killed in ritualistic murders in which as many as five men are believed to have taken turns to stab the prominent 70-year-old academic, who was an outspoken critic of the Dorje Shugden sect.

    The suspects had arrived only days before from China, following a path well worn by Tibetan faithful eager for a glimpse of their exiled god-king at his home in Dharmsala. The murders, only 200 yards from the Dalai Lama’s private residence, prompted an immediate tightening of security around him.

    The Dalai Lama banned the Tibetan Buddhist deity Dorje Shugden in 1996 and forbade worship of this angel-demon spirit, saying that the deity was a threat to his personal safety as well as to the future of Tibet. That decision provoked political strife within the Tibetan community and has given birth to factions fiercely opposed to his action, including the British-based Shugden Supporters Community.

    The deity has been a source of controversy within Tibet since the 17th century and is a “protective” spirit, or one that is believed to be able to bring down its wrath upon enemies of its followers. Followers have been reported to have issued death threats against the Dalai Lama.

    The divisive worship of Shugden has gained momentum in Tibet over the past few decades, leading to some speculation that Chinese authorities have favoured a sect that is highly critical of the authority and methods of the Dalai Lama. China brands the spiritual leader a separatist who seeks to use his religious authority and meetings with international leaders to gain independence for his homeland.”

    So who is distorting the truth? Kelsang Gyatso or Interpol?

  53. Dear JCB,

    I think you’re a bit confused! There is no relationship between the NKT and the WSS other than Kadampa practitioners have supported the activities of the WSS because they are Shugden practitioners who object to the religious dictatorship of the Dalai Lama. The WSS is an association of Shugden practitioners, both Western and Tibetan formed to protest against this dictatorship.

    Furthermore, the second letter has nothing to do with the Western Shugden Society or the NKT, or the Chinese but was sent by the Shugden Society in Delhi which has no connection with the WSS. This was sent solely by Tibetan practitioners who had been persecuted by the Dalai Lama, highlighting their desperation due to their being ostracised by their community.

  54. The New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) is mainly behind the world wide media campaign against the Dalai Lama and is orchestrated under the label Western Shugden Society (WSS) although some Tibetans also support the Western Shugden Society.

    That the Western Shugden Society was run by the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT), a UK charity trust, is indicated by these signs:

    Press speaker: Kelsang Pema (Helen Gradwell) – personal assistant to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso for more than 8 years
    Front man and leader in the USA: Gen-la Kelsang Khyenrab – Deputy Spiritual Director of the NKT

    Front woman and leader in USA: Gen Kelsang Dekyong – National Spiritual Director of NKT USA

    Front man and leader in Germany: Gen Kelsang Ananda – National Spiritual Director of NKT Germany

    Leader in Australia: Gen Kelsang Rabten – National Spiritual Director of NKT Australia and New Zealand

    Kelsang Gyatso has asked all his students by email to participate the protests. Among other things he wrote in one of his emails: “[...] To stop this evil action, as the representative of the Western Shugden Society, I personally will organise demonstrations against the Dalai Lama directly. I requested Kelsang Pema and Kelsang Thubchen to do this job for me and they have accepted. Please help Pema and Thubchen with whatever they need. With much love and prayers, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso”.

    Lucy James (USA), official editor of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso’s books and Resident Teacher for several NKT centers, who did not encourage her students thoroughly enough, was immediately removed by Geshe Kelsang from her position as a NKT resident teacher.

    The identity of the website of the Western Shugden Society is made hidden via proxy server (Domains by Proxy), however some media data in the files refer to “Tharpa”, a NKT enterprise, which publishes only Geshe Kelsang Gyatso’s books, and to a translator of Kelsang Gyatso’s books in Spain.

    A public letter of the NKT Bodhisattva Centre indicates the WSS website as being a NKT website stating “You may be interested to visit the following websites for further information about our Centre, our tradition – the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) the WSS: Bodhisattva Buddhist Centre [..] Western Shugden Society website: http://www.westernshugdensociety.org [..] for information about the NKT and our side of the story!!”

    The past media campaign of the New Kadampa Tradition (1996-1998) against the Dalai Lama was performed under the label Shugden Supporters Community (SSC) and NKT tried likewise to hide their identity.

  55. And this-

    The letter to Sera Lachi, Sera Jey and Sera Mey at

    http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/our-cause/letter-to-monasteries/

    ends

    “April 9, 2008
    We need your answer by the 22nd April 2008, signed and delivered by registered post to:

    Dorje Shugden Devotees Society,
    House No 105, Old Tibetan Camp, Majnu Ka Tilla, Delhi-54
    Phone: (91) 11-23921169, Mobile: (91) 9990426278

    If we do not receive your answer by 22nd April 2008, we will regard that you have not accepted the first point, and we will immediately prepare demonstrations.

    The Western Shugden Society”

    See those two phrases “Dorje Shugden Devotees Society” and “The Western Shugden Society”? What did you say?” There is no relationship between the NKT and the WSS other than Kadampa practitioners have supported the activities of the WSS” Bull.

  56. Hey guys,

    You’ll never attain enlightenment by wallowing in the dirt. Take in pure beauty instead:

    http://kadampafestivals.org/2010/spring/

  57. Wisdom Moon

    You didnt answer the previous point. Was it not to your liking? Just to recap, there is clear evidence that the WSS and the NKT are the same in all but name (see above), and there is clear evidence linking the WSS to the DSDCRS in Delhi (signatories to the same letter, above). There is also evidence linking the DSDCRS to the Chinese embassy in Delhi.(See below) And you say there are no links between the NKT and China? I think you are misguided.

    http://www.tibetinfonet.net/content/update/116

    On 24 December 2007, Tau Wenching, first secretary in the Chinese embassy in India, along with his wife, visited the Tibetan settlement of Mundgod, accompanied by Thupten Palsang, also known as Nagpo Chenpo, an active member of the Shugden group and a former monk of Pomra Khamtsen [monastic college] of Sera Mey. Ensuing allegations of links between Shugden supporters and the Chinese embassy in New Delhi were repudiated by the DSDCRS, the group who organised the press conference of 28 April 2008, and dismissed as malicious propaganda by the CTA to malign them.

  58. Dear JCB,

    The points you are making are not valid. This is my final response to you setting out the facts.

    FACT: The Dorje Shugden Devotees Society and the Western Shugden Society are not the same. Both organizations have similar aims, but they are not the same. Actually, you changed the subject. My point was that the second quote from your post above is from the Dorje Shugden Society, not the WSS. That’s a fact. You failed to acknowledge that, even though it’s true.

    FACT: neither are the WSS and the NKT the same organization. (you claim to have evidence, but where? I don’t see any). I explained the difference, but you cannot accept it. I’m just telling you the facts.

    FACT: There is no link between the NKT and the Chinese government. The article you quote is from a Tibet propaganda website. So, one monk who is not NKT (I have no idea who he is) spoke to the secretary from the Chinese embassy and from that you connect that NKT is linked with China? That really is 1+1 = 50. I think that’s what you want to believe so you will make the evidence fit your belief.

    I think the problem of many of the critics of NKT is that, because they’re not in the NKT and because they don’t have a clear understanding of the different Shugden groups that exist, they are equating eggs with golf balls. It’s like holding anyone who claims to be a Christian responsible for the Spanish Inquisition- there is no connection, but a confused mind thinks there is. Everyone gets tarred with the same brush. Not all Shugden groups are the same, even though they may have similar aims. This lack of understanding leads to absurd conclusions which are then propagated all over the internet. I read such confusion on many anti-Shugden and anti-NKT websites. This is why I am taking responsibility to set the record straight.

  59. False: The Dorje Shugden Devotees Society and the Western Shugden Society are not the same.
    Fact, there have been numerous occasions where the DSDCRS and WSS have countersigned the same letters-see your own websites!

    False: neither are the WSS and the NKT the same organization
    Fact-the WSS was set up, run and populated by NKT. The basis is the same, the imputation a deception-see above. You might not call it ‘evidence’ but there again, you might call a spirit a Buddha!

    False: There is no link between the NKT and the Chinese government.
    Fact-the NKT=WSS. The WSS is one wing of a two winged bird, the other being the DSDCRS in Delhi. The guest of honour at the first conference of the DSDCRS was the Chinese ambassador. The meeting between Nagpo Chenpo, a prominent DSDCRS member, and Tau Wenching, a Chines Government official mentioned above was another, documented, instance of DSDCRS collusion with China.

    Set that straight. Or is it all ‘Tibetan Government propaganda’?

  60. PS Do be careful before you call it ‘propaganda’ You dont want to sound too Chinese.

  61. Steve, on May 31, 2010 at 11:56 am Said:

    Previously I wrote

    “they are keeping webchat to a minimum to keep the search results down-conversation is very definitely closed on the DS site. Even without them talking though, there already about 150 different references to it on one popular search engine and its rising every day”

    This rose to 799 within the following week.

    Today it reached 1290. Thats within less than two weeks of the ban. So its increased nearly tenfold in as many days. Youre damned right, this one isnt going to go away!

  62. Not only is it not going away, the more these people try to defend gyatsos antics, the more their arguments leak. Just as they would have done if this Beesley bloke could have afforded some British justice.

  63. No chinese links?

    http://forums.phayul.com/forums/index.php?/topic/17711-chinese-communist-party-manipulation-of-the-dolgyal-cult/

    -Gangchen and Nga Lama ‘Kundeling’ (Both DSDCRS associates) openly take money from the Chinese gov’t.

    “In March 1998, shortly after we met, these two men of religion (Ganchen Tulku and Nga Lama Kundeling) were in Katmandu, with other Shugden followers and a member of the Communist Party of the Autonomous Region of Tibet, Gungthang Ngodup, who had come especially from Lhasa. A few days afterwards, an adviser from the Chinese embassy in Nepal, one Mr. Wangâl visited Ganchens house. As far as he could make out, the discussion revolved around the same subject, the type of collaboration between the Shugden followers and the Chinese authorities and possible financial help.
    source: Raimondo Bultrini ˜IL DEMONE E IL DALAI LAMA™ (2008).

    -the Chinese ambassador and wife visited Mysore district Tibetan settlements hosted by the Shugden Society in Delhi”

    “In December of the same year (1999) as reported by The Indian Express and The Tribune the Under-Secretary of the Chinese Embassy in Delhi, Zhao Hongang, went to the monastery of Ganden in India, accompanied by a devotee from Bylakuppe, Thupten Kungsang and by a monk who had arrived from Sera Mey. In July 1999, in Katmandu once more, other meetings were held between pro-Shugden activists and Chinese representatives. This time, Mr. Wangâl was met by Chimi Tsering and other directors of the DSDCRS, Lobsang Gyaltsen, Konchok Gyaltsen, Gelek Gyatso, and Soepa Tokhmey, the societys treasurer. After the final meeting a letter was drafted to be presented to the United Front Department of the Communist Party to ask for help against those discriminating against Shugden practitioners in India.”
    source: Raimondo Bultrinis˜IL DEMONE E IL DALAI LAMA” (2008).

    “a Western monk who lived in Sera Je Monastery, India, and who speaks fluent Tibetan noted that monks in the Tibetan Buddhist Gelug monasteries in India strongly assume that the Chinese secret service is sponsoring Shugden pujas in the Gelug monasteries to provoke more schism and quarrel. A Tibetan doctor reported to me that Kundeling Rinpoche, who has close ties to China and a lot of sympathy for Chinas presence in Tibet (see France 24 TV), offered money to local Indian people nearby the Sera Monastic Seat if they start protests against ˜the Dalai Lamas religious intolerance”. However, the Indians refused to do this, stating that it is better to have good long-term relations with the monasteries than accepting short term benefit by getting some money.”
    source:Chinas Involvement in the Dorje ShugdenControversy at WSS unlocked

    Serkong Tritul who lives in Taiwan and has appointed numerous Han Chinese ‘tulkus': offered enough money for breakfast, lunch and dinner for all the Shar Gaden monks for the next ten years.Shar garden is a pro Shugden temple.

    Websites display phony Chinese Panchen photo with dolgyal image and gush about how the cult is growing in China, boast about the new buildings, renovations and huge Shugden statues the PRC are funding in Tibet.

    NKT cult websites including the Shugden Society in Delhi all have Chinese language mirror sites

  64. Dear Sir
    I am sending you a copy of a letter . In it, the New Kadampa Tradition say they have no involvement with the demonstrations agents the Dalai Lama , although Geshe Kelsang Gyatso sent a letter to all his centres asking his students to help him by taking part in the demonstrations,

    At that years spring festival, where 3 to 4 thousand students come to hear Geshe Kelsang Gyatso teach, there were many posters advertising the demonstrations and buses were organised to take people from the festival to the demonstrations. Kelsang Pema, a New Kadampa Nun close to
    Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, was the spokesperson for the Western Shugden Society. Over 90 per cent of people taking part in this demonstrations were New Kadampa,

  65. It is a great shame that the fundamentalist faction within the Gelug as it existed in Tibet, lead by Pabongka and already engaged in violent aggressive acts against other traditions in the name of Dorje Shugden in the 1930s, should have stolen a march on the other Tibetan traditions on arrival here in the West. By concentrating on expansion and recruitment rather than the Dharma itself, the NKT, as Pabongkas direct spiritual descendants, have established themselves at the very fore in Western Buddhist circles and are now perpetuating the aggressive politicised version of Buddhism Pabongka and his cohorts forcefully imposed in Tibet, an imposition which created the very conditions by which the Chinese justified their Tibetan incursion.
    It seems that the ‘Cuckoo in the peacock Palace’ laid bare this fundamental flaw in the NKTs history, a flaw which has led to pseudo Buddhist fanaticism being considered a genuine and valid aspect of Buddhist practice. Obviously, the reason the NKT banned this book was because it threatened to undermine the very false premise on which its actions in the guise of the Western Shugden Society have been based.
    There is no doubt that the NKT are the WSS, as little doubt as that they are involved with the Dorje Shugden Devotees Charitable and Religious Society in Delhi, with whom they countersign threatening letters to the Dalai Lama and political leaders worldwide. It has also been reported in the Tibetan media that DSDCRS seniors have held meetings with Chinese government officials since the late 90s. The link to China is therefore a thoroughly established one and demonstrates that the NKT and the Chinese have chosen one another as allies in their common battle for religious and political dominance, one within Tibet and the other outside it.

  66. From Bultrini “The Demon and the Dalai Lama”

    But one morning, in my electronic mail, I found an item from World Tibetan News. It was an extract from a newspaper article reporting the first conference of pro-Shugden associations in Asia. There were two hundred participants and it was held in the Conference Room of a big hotel in Delhi, and hosted by the Chinese embassy.

    I could not be sure the report was true, but it showed that the large numbers of practitioners of the cult in the East did not depend solely on the initiatives of Kelsang Gyatso’s NKT. I took the opportunity to write to the Director of Security for the government in exile in Dharamsala. He wrote back a few days later, attaching some confidential information on Ganchen Tulku and ‘Nga Lama’ Kundeling. In March 1998, shortly after we met, these two men of religion were in Katmandu in Nepal, with other Shugden followers and a member of the Communist Party of the Autonomous Region of Tibet, Gungthang Ngodup, who had come especially from Lhasa. A few days afterwards – wrote Ngodup from Dharamsala – an adviser from the Chinese embassy in Nepal, one ‘Mr. Wang’,[164] visited Ganchen’s house. As far as he could make out, the discussion revolved around the same subject, the type of collaboration between the Shugden followers and the Chinese authorities and possible financial help.

    In December of the same year – as reported by The Indian Express and The Tribune – the Under-Secretary of the Chinese Embassy in Delhi, Zhao Hongang, went to the monastery of Ganden in India, accompanied by a devotee from Bylakuppe, Thupten Kungsang and by a monk who had arrived from Sera Mey. In July 1999, in Katmandu once more, other meetings were held between pro-Shugden activists and Chinese representatives. This time, ‘Mr. Wang’ was met by Chimi Tsering and other directors of the Delhi ‘Shugden Society’, Lobsang Gyaltsen, Konchok Gyaltsen, Gelek Gyatso, and Soepa Tokhmey, the society’s treasurer. After the final meeting a letter was drafted to be presented to the United Front Department of the Communist Party to ask for help against those discriminating against Shugden practitioners in India.

    [164] Now deceased

    [...]

    The men of Dharamsala’s security forces continued to receive information on the continual ‘pilgrimages’ made by the cult’s leaders to Chinese-occupied Tibet. The list of them included, from 1998 onwards: a lama based in Taiwan and Singapore, Serkong Tritul, who was the guru of one of the alleged Dharamsala murderers: Yongya Tulku, the secretary of the Delhi Shugden Society; Phari Phuntsok, a lama resident in Katmandu; Dragon Rinpoche, Vice–President of the Nepalese Shugden society; Basundara Lhakpa, Chatreng Thinley and Chatreng Topgyal. The latter three were received in Lhasa as official delegation from the authorities of the TAR (autonomous region of Tibet).

    The ever closer links between the cult members and the Chinese authorities were not ‘invented’ by Dharamsala’s counter-espionage team. In his long activist history, Kundeling Lama, the leader of the International Coalition who had met Ganchen in Milan, wrote, ‘In the winter (of 2001) I took the bold step to visit Beijing in the hope of reaching out to the 11th Panchen Lama and other prominent Buddhist leaders.[168] (…) In April 2002, once again, I visited Beijing to apprise the Buddhist leaders and the authorities of the threats being faced by Shugden devotees within Tibet’.

    This odd request from a Tibetan for China to support the cult seems to have been granted, at least by the national media which published several articles on the subject. On February 27, 2003, with money offered by the Chinese embassy in Katmandu, a bi-monthly review was started, called Times of Democracy, to which a reporter from the Wen Hui Daily of Shanghai contributed. Even the building that housed the offices of the journal and the headquarters of the Nepalese Shugden Society were paid for by the embassy, which contributed 700 thousand rupees, around 6500 euros.

    [168] The Directors of the Chinese Buddhist Association are members of the Party directly linked to the United Front Department.

  67. WHERE IS WISDOM MOON?

    Over the last few days, the NKT poster Wisdom Moon and elsewhere on the web has posted here denying that the NKT are in bed with the Chinese political establishment. Susequently, a number of posts have appeared proving exactly that. To recap:

    Fact-the NKT-WSS (Same company, different name).
    The WSS is one wing of a two winged organization, the other being the DSDCRS in Delhi.(Threat letters to opponents countersigned by both)
    The DSCRS work with and receive funding from China. (See above posts

    OK, there’s the evidence. Why then has Wisdom Moon/’Empty Mountains’/’Thom’/’David Canada’ disappeared from view?

    2 probable reasons. It has been realised that every time the NKT deny and ask for proof of their Chinese links, an abundance of evidence floods out onto the internet.

    Or, the NKT legal eagles are, once again wondering who they can threaten with another of their intimidatory and disingenuous lawsuits.

    Its hard to work out why the NKT have such a problem with truth. Unless, of course they think they hold a monopoly on it.Maybe they’ll sue for breach of copyright?

    Or perhaps WM is concentrating on his other job of continuous sanitizing of the Wikipedia page on the NKT. Posters are invited to visit the Wikipedia page and place any genuine, though critical information on that site. Then observe how long it remains-Don’t blink now, or you’ll miss it.

    Here’s a mail from an NKT site that gives us an insight into the disingenuous minds et that drives these people

    “….is it possible that you abstain from importing the horrors that are published out there about Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and the New Kadampa Tradition?
    ………it’s too much, we don’t need to give them more space in the web than the one they already take.
    Please?”

    Interesting, the quantification of space. More interesting, the implicit message “Dont quote from pieces critical of the cause as search engines will pick it up”

  68. Hey Wisdom Moon or whatever you call yourself, its obvious you are still looking here. How come you havent responded to the evidence that the NKT are in bed with the Chinese posted above? Trying hard to treat it as if it is insignificant? Words already out. When youve finished licking your wounds, perhaps youd care to post some more propaganda and give everyone here another opportunity to expose the fallacies of your flimsy arguments? Were waiting-and remember, the stuff you post here floods out all over the web within days. Several sites appear to have already echoed the response to your China link denial.

  69. Like somebody said, looks like youve been told to shut up.

  70. From the tricycle blog

    http://www.tricycle.com/blog/?p=1806

    “….in the UK it is perfectly acceptable for a religious charity to hire the services of an external body to lobby on their behalf in the political arena, though they are advised no to do the lobbying themselves.

    However, what is completely immoral, illegal and unacceptable for a charity is for that religious organization to POSE as an external organization and then lobby on its own behalf. This is exactly what the NKT did and exactly why they are desperate to maintain what is only in truth a nominal distinction between themselves and the WSS. After all, tax exemption for charities is very useful, especially when ones annual income amounts to tens of millions of pounds.

    It is certain that the UK Charity Commission has received numerous complaints about the NKT. It is equally certain that the Charity Commission, notorious for its apathy (they refused to revoke the charitable status of gun clubs until an horrific massacre of 16 children and 1 adult in 1996 at Dunblane, Scotland) has wriggled out of doing anything that might potentially damage its own name by employing the above argument.

    However, I dont think anyone has questioned the Charity Commission on the legality of a charity POSING as an external lobbying group, then carrying out its own poisonous propaganda for it, something which in the NKTs case, there is clear evidence of.
    (http://info-buddhism.com/Western_Shugden_Society_unlocked.html)

    I guess its only a matter of time before this discrepancy is pointed out to the Fraud Team at the Commissions Liverpool Office, which is run by Kenneth Rogers,
    Charity Commission Direct – Caseworking Team
    Email: webSCWliverpool@charitycommission.gsi.gov.uk
    tel: 0845 300 0218

  71. The more the merrier!

  72. It seems Thomas David Canada aka “Lhakpa Gyaltshen” has changed his online name again. Thomas David Canada is an Italian-American married to the heiress of Eli-Lily pharmaceutical fortune. Ostensibly he bankrolled the failed lawsuit against HHDL in New Delhi through cult luminary Kundeling (who calls himself His Holiness, although Tibetans call him ‘Nga Lama’ because he recognized himself as divine.) This quote is from Thomas David Canada (in Maclean’s magazine blog) addressed to ethnic Tibetans :

    ” No wonder you lost your land, only cowards run away…………………….

    THOMAS DAVID CANADA
    
CEDAR CITY, UTAH 
USA
    
Come on down and we’ll check your skin or better yet, We’ll just deport you back to China”

    Wow, KKK is alive and well.

  73. From Tricycle’s blog: “NKT/WSS denizens are by and large on the dole, thats why their career is online slander, defamation and padding petitions with false names. Now its blowback time for the idle cultists, just like British Petroleum: PR is not reality and you will suffer the consequences.

    Write to NKT/WSS with your thoughts and suggestions:

    email: western_Shugden_society@live.com

    uk tel: 07717-209418

    us tel/fax: 1-206-350-3877

    WSS Studio 177, 56 Tavistock Place, London, WC1H 9RG, UK”

    That’s in Camden, near to SOAS, as I recall.
    I wonder who pays their rent?

  74. Dont write to the NKT-write to your MP! if you write to them, as well as the mknowing who you are so they can put you on their hate pages as yet antoher enemy of the NKT, it keeps it quiet, your criticisms will never see the light of day and it will alert them to what needs hiding. Better to bring the debate into the public arena. And what better place than the greatest debating hall in the UK, in full view of the wonderful British public. After all, the NKT/WSS have definitely been pushing themselves on MPs for years, complaining about the evil Dalai Lama and religious persecution. if its good for the goose…
    The dole probably pay the rent, in a roundabout way.

    Here’s another ’roundabout way’ they con people-this is the NKts response to the question,

    “ Has the NKT used money from the sale of Losang Dragpa Centre (in Todmorden, West Yorkshire) for the development of centres abroad contrary to the Internal Rules?

    No.

    In accordance with Clause 9.1 of LDC’s Memorandum of Association and with section 17§5 of NKT-IKBU Internal Rules, the Spiritual Director of LDC (i.e. the General Spiritual Director of the New Kadampa Tradition~International Kadampa Buddhist Union (NKT-IKBU) (i.e.Kelsang Gyatso) advised that it would be most beneficial if LDC’s remaining assets could be given to Manjushri KMC, the original “Mother Centre” of the NKT-IKBU, for subsequent distribution to one (or more than one) other Member Centre of the NKT-IKBU. This proposal was checked with the Charity Commission, explaining that Manjushri KMC is a part of the NKT-IKBU charity, and was then formally adopted by the directors and members of LDC.

    In this way the requirements of LDC’s constitution and of the Internal Rules were met.

    The receipts from the sale of Dobroyd Castle were donated by LDC to the NKT-IKBU charity in October 2008. They were then designated by NKT-IKBU to International Temple Project purposes, where the funds would bring most benefit (to?). Some of the funds were used to buy a property for Hotel Kadampa Holland in January 2009, and the rest contributed to subsequent international developments,”

    So the answer is “No, the NKT has not used money from the sale of Losang Dragpa Centre (in Todmorden, West Yorkshire) for the development of centres abroad”

    But wait a moment “The receipts from the sale of Dobroyd Castle were donated by LDC to the NKT-IKBU charity….. then used to buy a property for Hotel Kadampa Holland in January 2009, and the rest contributed to subsequent international developments,”?????????

    No we didnt spend it on temples abroad, we spent it on a hotel abroad and other ‘international developments’…Not devious?

  75. the main rant of the wss is that they ‘prove’ they are
    different from the nkt because they don’t use any nkt centre money.

    I know of a person who signed a large cheque from their centre’s bank account for the costs of the shugden protesters going around europe, euros given directly from the centre coffers.

  76. Who, how much when and where ?

  77. Do you really think people are so stupid as to reveal their sources like that?

  78. s’pose not. oops
    Just hope that the information is used

  79. and who said i think people are stupid ? stupid !

  80. Was that a dressing down? (Dressing. Salad. No?)

  81. From NKTworld.org

    A BUSINESS OF PAIN
    So much bitterness NKT causes. It is seen in the thousands directly hurt by NKT, and even in many remaining in NKT trying to defend NKT’s battles with Buddhists.

    Under the guise of Buddhism, albeit a distorted guise, people join NKT thankful for finding a nearby connection with the wonders of Buddhism, diverse and expansive, offering the simplest and most noble of ideals, compassion.

    Some immerse themselves. Some rent living space inside an NKT ‘center’. Some take NKT ordination vows. Some donate their savings to NKT. Some loan money to NKT.

    Financial contributions, some of which from taxpayer subsidies, and volunteer efforts eventually lead to refurbishing of and mortgages for new NKT real estate holdings technically organized as ‘charities’, although they make minimal if any contributions to the community.

    Since it began in 1991, NKT has amassed substantial real estate wealth in many countries.

    As NKT’s wealth has increased, so has its ego and defensiveness, so much so that NKT has gone on the offensive.

    Insiders questioning NKT’s ambitions are thrown out, regardless of their dependency, like mothers with children. Some leave in disgust.

    Several hundred share their stories under the name NKT Survivors as part of their healing process from what they realized was an insidious cult. Many in the group have been targeted by NKT for slurs.

    Those examining NKT from the outside are also targeted by NKT for slurs.

    NKT’s targets are sometimes threatened with litigation.

    Virtually anyone sharing their painful experience with NKT or assessing NKT’s public campaigns against Buddhists are quickly trivialized by remaining NKT supporters still trapped by the NKT cult, which thrives itself by nurturing the ego of its defenders with promises of ‘merit’ and quickly attaining enlightenment. So addicted they reveal much bitterness in their attacks. Statisticlly, eventually they too will become NKT outcasts or waste their lives with hate.

    NKT’s negative campaign against those outside NKT and those scared to leave NKT is NKT’s legacy.

  82. “I’ve long since learned (through making many mistakes) that it is pointless to engage people with strong anger and negative views because their minds cannot be changed. You can’t have a ‘reasonable’ discussion because any discussion just makes them angrier and distorts their perceptions still further. A case in point is recent posts on the ‘dialogueireland’ blog about Gary Beesley’s book. Even though there were few NKT-supporting posts, there was a feeding frenzy of negativity that continued without any input from NKT practitioners at all!”

    Because they were told to keep quiet! And look how anyone who expresses views opposite to the NKTs is portrayed as “people with strong anger and negative views” with “distorted perceptions” engaging in “a feeding frenzy of negativity” Yeah, not like anyone else we could mention. Havent you read the Great Deception? (10 out of 10 for the perfect title)

    The problem of Shugden is not a dependant arising born of the interface between two sets of worshippers, both of whom supposedly hold views of equal status according to liberals amongst us, but rather the interface between genuine faith followers and a deity practice which is and has been for many years an affront to their religious values, freedom of worship and free speech, in Tibet and now in the West

    How ironic that the NKT should employ such sentiments in favour of their own political activities while simultaneously preventing any criticism of them in the public domain through the threat of law suits and litigation. Saying one thing and doing the opposite is thoroughly dishonest.

  83. How widely recognised is it the the nkt and the wss are in fact the same organisation ?

  84. Phayul forum has had close to 1000 views on the story of NKT suppressing Mr. Beesley’s book. However, by and large I think its fair to say that the demon dolgyal issue is not really of interest at all any longer, NKT and Guru Gyatso could not have less esteem than now enjoy amongst actual Tibetan Buddhists, they have reached the absolute nadir in public opinion amongst ethnic Tibetans.

  85. Ethinic Tibetans who proclaim proudly “We care more about Tibet than we do about the Dharma, so don’t touch the Dalai Lama.”

    Think guys, just think….

  86. No one has more compassion for ethnic Tibetans than members of NKT and WSS.

    We want to lift the veil of confusion that is obstructing them from demanding both religious freedom and secular and democratic political representation.

  87. None of us want to cause harm or upset. However we have a duty to oppose injustice and discrimination against our spiritual bothers and sisters within the Tibetan community. Those of you who write here have no knowledge or understanding of that discrimination. You should try visiting some of the Tibetan communities around the world youself and then you will realize for yourself the fear and humiliation that families and individuals have been subjected to through no fault other than wishing to continue to rely upon the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden.

    The Dalai Lama’s problem with Dorje Shugden is that this practice discourges mixing the practices and teaching of other traditions. Since he equates ecclecticism with non-sectarianism, for him anyone who wishes to rely exclusively upon one tradition is sectarian. Yet, no one else understands the word ‘sectarian’ in this way.

    He is also aware that some of those who rely upon Dorje Shugde will regard his approach to spiritual practice as wrong and incorrect. And so he regards their continual reliance upon this deity as an implicit criticism of him.

    He really needs to get over himself and to realize that whilst he has the right to practice ecclecticism if he wishes he has no right to try to impose his views upon others, or to try to ostracise those within the Tibetan community who reject ecclecticism as-a-spiritual-path-for-them (please try to understand the significance of those last six words – Dorje Shugden practitioners are not trying to force their views upon anyone else.)

    This brief explanation explains the essence of this whole controversy (according to my understanding of it).

    Let’s hope that people will come to appreciate the importance of religious freedom for everyone, and the right to protest against those who seek to deny it to others.

    OM MANI PADME HUM

    MAY ALL LIVING BEINGS BE HAPPY

  88. Adam
    You are a misled and misguided Removed by moderator
    I have visited these Tibetan communities you’ve been told about, and what you’ve been told is wrong.
    Grow up and get out of that cult !
    Love
    salad

  89. I have read very widely and gained a discriminating view of the whole situation.

    I do not hate the Dalai Lama. Like many others I am charmed by him. However, I do not condone his actions of trying to coerce people into giving up a spiritual practice that is important to them, and in attempting to ostracise those who chose to disregard his unreasonable demand.

    I have compassion for yourself and everyone else on this site, and hope that you will see through the deceptive mists of confusion surrounding this issue, and come to join us in demanding freedom or thought and religious practice for everyone within the Tibetan community.

    It is extremely sad to be in a position of having to criticise the Dalai Lama who stands as a symbol of peace and compassion for so many people throughout the world. For many of those looking on it seems that we were doing nothing of any value.

    However, for those within the Tibetan community who had been unjustly maligned by the Dalai Lama and those taken in by him, our protests had tremendous value in terms of restoring their sense of dignity and self-respect. We affirmed their right to practice their religious faith, and also made it clear to the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government in Exile that continued persecution would be highlighted.

    As a result of this the overt persecution has now abated. However, individuals and families who continue to rely upon Dorje Shugden are still being ostracised and rejected by former friends and family members. It is a tremendously sad situation, and they are deserving of the greatest compassion.

    The NKT is not a spiritual and religious organisation. That is all. No objective observer could reasonably describe it as a ‘cult.’ Our critics invariably have an agenda to work to.

    I am sorry for Garry that he wanted to commit this negative action of slander and divisive speech against a pure spiritual tradition. Actually, for our part we want good relations with all Buddhists and all other Buddhist traditions.

    Other Buddhists and spiritual practitioners should thank us for being the type of friend that can let you know when you are making a mistake.

  90. “The NKT is not a spiritual and religious organisation.”

    That was a typing error!!!

    You know what I meant.

    OM MANI PADME HUM

    SARVA MANGALAM

    MAY ALL LIVING BEINGS BE HAPPY

  91. Blah, blsah blaah, ‘compassion’ blah blaah blaah, Om mani padme hum. Blah blah blah may all beings be happy'(except the Dalai Lama and ayone who ascribes to his views)
    So much talk=transformation of meaningful words into insider language=cult speak
    Genuine Buddhists keep their mouths shut on such issues. Instead of talking the talk, learn to walk the walk. Walking the walk does not include denegrating anyone that disagrees with your views.
    The spritual claptrtap you are talking is a clear indication of two things
    1st-youve been into buddhism for about 5 minutes
    2nd-you have yet to truly internalise the dharma
    So much garbage talked in the name of Buddhism in these degenerate times

  92. No Relationship? The UK Charity Commission Confirms the New Kadampa Tradition and the Western Shugden Society are One and the Same.

    The NKT, the WSS and Politics

    One of the greatest concerns of the NKT is its preservation of the illusion of it being a Buddhist ‘religious’ charity rather than a political movement. For the wider world to perceive the NKT as a political movement, an essential aspect of the group’s actual character (though one not readily talked about at its beginners groups) would be a PR disaster. They, after all teach a form of ‘pure’ Buddhism untarnished by the pollutions of extant forms of the faith, long established ‘traditions’ which, they claim, have ‘degenerated’ into ‘politics’. Hence, the internal rules of the NKT-IKBU state “The New Kadampa Tradition shall always be an entirely independent Buddhist tradition and the NKT-IKBU shall have no political affiliations.”

    Kelsang Gyatso himself distanced the NKT from the whole issue of the conflict over Dorje Shugden more than a decade ago when, in a letter to the Washington Times he proclaimed the issue a “Tibetan political problem” and publicly avowed that,

    ‘…in October 1998 we decided to completely stop being involved in this Shugden issue because we realized that in reality this is a Tibetan political problem and not the problem of Buddhism in general or the NKT. We made our decision public at this time- everyone knows the NKT and myself completely stopped being involved in this Shugden issue at all levels. I can guarantee that the NKT and myself have never performed inappropriate actions and will never do so in the future. This is our determination. We simply concentrate on the flourishing of holy Buddhadharma throughout the world – we have no other aim.”

    The corollary of this rhetoric is epitomised by the Western Shugden Society’s allegations against the present Dalai Lama that he (not generations of masters and independent minded Dalai Lamas before him) has polluted Buddhism by ‘politicizing’ it via the issue of Dorje Shugden. The Western Shugden Society book, ‘A Great Deception’ brims with such rhetoric. The group’s website describes its membership as “freeing Buddhism from Political pollution, protecting Shugden practitioners from persecution by the Dalai Lama”.

    There is then a definite desire on the part of Kelsang Gyatso and the NKT to keep the two, politics and religion, separate in the minds of newcomers and potential converts; indeed, this distinction is repeatedly emphasized throughout the follower’s encounter with the organization.

    And yet, what one gradually ‘learns’ about Buddhism when one encounters the NKT is:

    Dalai Lama=politics=pollution of ‘pure’ Buddhism;

    Kelsang Gyatso/NKT=’Pure’, non-political Buddhism.

    This routinely perpetuated, highly political motif is prominent throughout one’s involvement with the NKT, even in the upper echelons of the organization’s ruling elite. In his letter to NKT centre directors in April 2008 for instance, after elsewhere stating he would personally organize demonstrations against the Dalai Lama as the ‘representative’ of the Western Shugden Society, Gyatso wrote:

    It is very possible that The Western Shugden Society will organise demonstrations against the Dalai Lama. Concerning this issue, we should know five things:
    1. The demonstrations will be organised by the Western Shugden Society, not by the NKT.
    2. The Western Shugden Society is the unification of all the Western Shugden practitioners, and NKT is a part of this main body.
    3. When the main body, The Western Shugden Society, organises demonstrations, the NKT needs to voluntarily contribute and help.
    4. There is no basis to break our constitution or internal rules because this is not organised by the NKT.
    We should recognise that the NKT is not involved politically, simply supporting The Western Shugden Society with these demonstrations.”

    Clearly, the idea that the NKT is an apolitical organization is considered a valuable asset from the NKT’s perspective. This maintenance of the dualistic distinction between politics and religion, between the ‘polluted’ and ‘politicised’ on the one hand and the ‘pure’ and the ‘apolitical’ on the other, provides both the mantra and mindset which drive the NKT’s Shugden devotees in their allegedly ‘apolitical’ war against the Dalai Lama in the material world and in cyberspace.

    So how political are the NKT? More importantly, to whom can we ask that question and guarantee a trustworthy response?

    Of course, we could ask the NKT. But we already know that the NKT could never possibly be a political organization from their own perspective; the internal rules of the group state,” the NKT-IKBU shall have no political affiliations.” And if that’s what the NKT rules say, then it must be true.

    Gyatso explicitly disassociates the NKT from political activity above when he states that because the WSS and not the NKT were organizing demonstrations, the NKT’s internal rules on political affiliation were therefore not being breached. ‘The NKT is not involved ‘politically’, claimed Gyatso, it was simply ‘supporting’ the activities of the Western Shugden Society.

    So, from Gyatso’s perspective, the NKT has no involvement with the Shugden Society, they are just their ‘supporters’. The NKT ‘party line’ answer to our question then, is that the two, the NKT and the WSS, are distinct entities.

    Critics of the NKT/WSS

    We have already seen that the NKT’s critics consider this distinction to be a false one. They point to the fact that, before the demonstrations against the Dalai Lama, Kelsang Gyatso declared, “As the representative of the Western Shugden Society, I personally will organise demonstrations against the Dalai Lama directly”.

    Similarly, critics point to the fact that the WSS Press speaker during the 2008 anti Dalai Lama campaign was Kelsang Pema (Helen Gradwell), personal assistant to Kelsang Gyatso for 8 years. Again, in the US, the frontman and leader of WSS demos was Kelsang Khyenrab, then Deputy Spiritual Director of the NKT, second only to Gyatso. The frontwoman and leader of the same WSS demos was Kelsang Dekyong, then National Spiritual Director of NKT USA, now General Spiritual Director of the whole organization. In Germany, the WSS frontman and leader of demonstrations was Kelsang Ananda, National Spiritual Director of NKT Germany. Finally, the leader of WSS demos in Australia was Kelsang Rabten, National Spiritual Director of NKT Australia and New Zealand. On each occasion, the vociferous demonstrators were overwhelmingly members of the NKT.

    So one for, one against. The NKT say they are not political and that they only ‘support’ the activities of the WSS, and their opponents say they are political because the NKT are the WSS, simply pretending not to be the NKT so as not to become tarred by the brush of ‘politically polluted religion’ . Remember, according to the NKT, that’s where the Tibetans got it wrong and where the NKT get it right; the NKT definitely does not perpetuate the fault of mixing politics with religion.

    Inform: Neutral Advice?

    Perhaps a third more neutral party such as the Home Office financed ‘Inform’ might be able to provide a more academic opinion on whether the NKT is the same as the WSS and whether it engages in political activity or not. Inform, according to its aims, provides accurate, balanced, up-to-date information about new and/or alternative religious or spiritual movements. These are the people government departments talk to when they want information on established religious groups and New Religious Movements. Notably, in 2008, they received more enquiries about the NKT than any other controversial British New Religious Movement.

    The standard letter Inform issue when contacted about the NKT confirms that “the NKT-IKBU stresses that it is an independent organisation with no official political position or formal association with the Western Shugden Society.” The file Inform hold on the NKT lists the WSS as an ‘associated organization’ because of the “substantial demonstrable connections between the two,” and what an Inform spokesperson described as “the visible overlap of the membership base and spokespersons of both groups “. New Religious Movements often set up legally independent charities and companies in which their members are encouraged actively to become involved, Sun Yung Moon’s Unification Church providing numerous examples of such practice.

    So, it would appear that the ‘neutral’ position is that the NKT and the WSS are ‘associated’, the former having set up the latter and then encouraged its followers to become members.

    However, one must ask how ‘neutral’ this information actually is. As mentioned above, 2008 saw Inform receiving more enquiries about the NKT than any other NRM. In response to the ever-growing concern about the organization, Inform decided to produce a leaflet on the NKT charting its history and some, though not all, of the controversies surrounding it. As academics involved in the study of New Religious Movements, Inform have always provided the organizations they comment on with draft copies of anything they write about them so that the organization has chance to comment before publication. But when Inform provided the NKT with what they intended to write, the NKT responded, characteristically, by threatening legal action.

    This means that Inform cannot even tell the Home Office, the government office that finances it, exactly what it knows about the organization because the NKT has prevented it from doing so, indeed it has prevented Inform from presenting the full extent of its information to all government bodies or to the public via its increasingly ubiquitous threat of litigation. From this perspective, it would seem that NKT has even more power than the UK Government itself.

    Therefore, we cannot be sure that Inform’s stance is a neutral one, not because of inadequacies or biases on the part of Inform’s academic staff, but rather because their responses must always be considered against the knowledge that the threat of NKT legal retribution hangs, like the sword of Damocles, over everything they might dare to say or print. From this perspective, it would seem that NKT has even more power than the UK Government itself

    At least the author Gary Beesley, can take some solace from this. The widespread response from the NKT web-police after he was forced to withdraw his book on the NKT, ‘A Cuckoo in the Peacock Palace’, from circulation was that the legal suppression of his work was due to its being filled with libellous falsehoods. However, it is quite clear that the suppression of ANY information that does not concur with their version of truth has become routine practice for the NKT, whether it is false or true. The 19th century German philosopher Schopenhauer observed that all truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed, secondly, it is violently suppressed and then thirdly, it is accepted by all as self-evident. If such is the case, the NKT’s suppression of Beesley’s work has already set in motion a process which will ultimately lead to widespread acceptance of its content.

    The UK Charity Commission

    Another important body that has had a long relationship with the NKT is the UK Charity Commission. Like Inform, one of the fundamental tenets of the Charity Commission is neutrality. Unlike Inform, the NKT have a vested interest in maintaining a healthy relationship with the Commission since their charitable status as the registered charity ‘NKT-IKBU’ brings significant benefits, both in terms of funding and tax exemption.

    After the demonstrations of 2008, a number of individuals wrote to the Commission to express their concerns about the NKT-IKBU’s infrastructure, assets and membership being utilised in the WSS’s highly political anti Dalai Lama campaign. Generally speaking, charities are advised not to engage directly in political activity. In a recent report on the activities of the League Against Cruel Sports, for instance, Andrew Hind, Chief Executive of the Charity Commission said:

    “Charities must guard their independence very carefully, which means not engaging in any party political activity or leaving the charity open to the perception that they may be.” Critics of the NKT would certainly suggest that the NKT, in the guise of the WSS, was engaged in just such activity.

    However, the Commission rejected this complaint stating:

    “Our view, is that the charity is undertaking campaigning rather than political activity, (a view) based on the distinct definitions of these terms, derived from charity law. Political activity involves trying to secure support or oppose a change in the law or in the policy or decisions of a central government, local authority, or other public body whether in this country or abroad. Campaigning is about mobilising support and raising awareness about an issue, whether in the public domain generally or particularly among stakeholders or governments, or both.

    In this case, the charity is campaigning against an edict or a resolution (I refer However, we do not think that this is a political campaign or political activity because the edict has not been pronounced by a functioning government or political leader. Neither is the edict capable of being legally enforced. Clearly, the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government in Exile do pass resolutions, decisions and edicts which are followed by their supporters. However, these do not become laws or policies in Tibet, India or any other country, and their supporters have the choice of whether to comply or not.”
    In other words, the campaign against the Dalai Lama is not a political one because the Dalai Lama is not a political leader and his edicts are not legally enforceable.

    Supporters of the Dalai Lama’s position on the Shugden issue can be forgiven for perhaps perceiving this somewhat characteristically evasive and insipid response something of a disappointment. To suggest that the Dalai Lama is not a political leader simply because he is not currently the head of state or that his actions are not political simply because his edicts are not legally enforceable seems a very convenient way for the Charity Commission to, once again, refrain from acting when action is urgently needed. Even the NKT would disagree with them on both issues. After all, their central argument is that the Dalai Lama is a political figure and his edicts on Shugden are being enforced within the exiled Tibetan community.
    Significantly more noteworthy however, is the repeated use of the phrase “the charity is …campaigning”. To whom exactly do the Commission refer when they speak of ‘the charity’ campaigning against the Dalai Lama’s edicts? Certainly, it is not the Western Shugden Society; the WSS have, at least until now, not registered as a UK charity. Moreover, the complaints that the Charity Commission received were not made against the WSS but rather, against the NKT-IKBU itself.
    Thus, when the Commission refer to the non-political ‘campaigning’ activities of ‘the charity’, the charity are referring directly to the NKT. From the perspective of UK Charity Commission, the demonstrations against the Dalai Lama that were carried out in the deliberate guise of the WSS were in fact, the activity of registered charity 101504, the New Kadampa Tradition-International Kadampa Buddhist Union.

    The Charity Commission’s response continues:
    “…it would appear the charity believes its involvement in the issue to be political. We will therefore write to the trustees to explain the legal position that applies to charities taking part in political activity and campaigning, and the duties and responsibilities that must be complied with. As mentioned above, the reason for being involved in the campaign must be related to the charity’s purposes and trustees must be able to justify the resources applied….Our advice will also include trustees considering the methods used to campaign, such as taking part in demonstrations or associating with another organisation(s).”

    This then, further confirms that it is the NKT-IKBU to which the Commission refer in their response. In fact, several phrases in the passage raise some very interesting questions. For instance, if “the charity believes its involvement in the issue to be political.” why does “the charity” publicly deny that it engages in any form of political activity? Again, why do the Commission believe the NKT-IKBU considers its “involvement in the issue to be political.”? Is it because they have consistently denied any association between their own activities and those of the WSS? Is such apparently deceptive behaviour acceptable for a charity in the eyes of the Commission?

    According to the Commission’s response to the complaint that the NKT IKBU charity has bee engaging in political activities, charities can undertake such campaigning activity, “as long as they are only undertaken in the context of supporting the delivery of the charity’s purposes or aims, in this case the Dalai Lama’s edict against Shugden propitiation”.

    The Charity Commission website states that the aims and purpose of the NKT-IKBU are the “Public promotion of Kadampa Buddhism throughout the world, by supporting the development of Kadampa Buddhist centres throughout the world, by publishing and distributing book on Kadampa Buddhism and training teachers in the same, and finally the maintenance of a year-round programme of Buddhist teachings and meditation at the charity’s home premises.”

    Where in this statement of aims and purposes, does the NKT IKBU refer to its ‘religious freedom’ campaigns against the Dalai Lama? Is it not the case that, despite the fact that this has very clearly been one of the NKT IKBU’s most prominent activities of recent, such activities do not appear to link to any of the stated aims or purposes, either explicitly or indeed, implicitly? Why is it that the NKT-IKBU’s significant involvement in these activities is not made clear in the statement aims and purposes?
    Surely, if this campaigning has become a significant aspect of the NKT-IKBU’s activities, this should be made clear in its statement of aims and purposes? If not, how are the general public or indeed non-governmental bodies such as English Heritage and the National Lottery to know whether they are contributing to a cause, the aims of which they agree with? Is this perhaps why the NKT have been so keen to hide the fact that, though they and the WSS are nominally distinct, they are in fact the same entity?
    After the 2008 demonstrations by the NKT/WSS the Administrative Director of Kadampa Meditation Centre, Florida resigned, declaring:
    “Since the beginning of our involvement with the NKT we have been repeatedly told that the NKT was not involved in politics. Now that the NKT has opened up with its political position and begun demonstrating I can no longer be a part of the organization. This complete lack of honesty about the NKT’s involvement in Tibetan politics is the reason for my departure.”
    If more people were aware of this total dishonesty over the NKT’s thoroughly political nature, how long would it be before it was no longer one of the largest and fastest growing New Buddhist Movements in the West? How long would it be before the mortgage payments could no longer be met and its burgeoning property empire began to collapse inwards, like the proverbial sand castle slipping back into the sea?

  93. “The 19th century German philosopher Schopenhauer observed that all truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed, secondly, it is violently suppressed and then thirdly, it is accepted by all as self-evident. If such is the case, the NKT’s suppression of Beesley’s work has already set in motion a process which will ultimately lead to widespread acceptance of its content.”

    This is a glib and totally vacuous statement.

    You are totally wasting your time by getting so hot under the collar about all of this stuff.

  94. It is sad to have to point out the faults of the Dalai Lama, but what option is there when he is making false allegations that are causing great harm and distress?

    Everyone has the right to protest against injustice. Sometime we have a moral obligation to protest against it, even if that causes some people discomfort.

  95. I’ll get this one in quick before i get moderated.
    [Mod note: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2akt3P8ltLM /Mod note]

  96. nice one :0)

  97. Adam no happy-he dont like!
    He say “Everyone has the right to protest against injustice. Sometime we have a moral obligation to protest against it,” OK Adam baby-what happen with Gary beesley-He no have right? Maybe he feel he have moral obligation too?
    You dont see? maybe only one eye open. At the back.

  98. maybe Adam so busy looking at other fault, not see plank in hes own eye? Or no?

  99. PS Adam, you no read thing on NKT+WSS same thing? What you answer? More distraction?

  100. maybe adam a madam, reason for his confusion mind ? focus on missin his thunderbolt too much.
    maybe ?

  101. also, maybe adam have phlema in his throat ?

  102. maybe need lube da thunderbolt wit da phlema? Or maybe he already do dis so no need. many in NKT already lube da thunderbolt-maybe dassa why da pema have to go: Pema and thundebolt make everything dissolve if they together
    Anyway (M) adam, what you say-NKT WSS same or different? Charity Commission say you same-you say they all dirty bloody liar?
    Who is dirty bloody liar-NKT or Charity people? (Careful what say-you make ada big spondoolies from you charity, innit? You answer now OK?

  103. maybe pema the lady gaga adam. tell him/her to be shush shush, they already poo poo frightened about money loss.

  104. Hey Adam
    Where you answer? Now you very quiet-maybe it true NKT WSS same same? Or maybe you say no, not true then burn in hell for long, long time. What to do? Tell truth and no have friend no more or lie and fry? Come on baby, what you say?

  105. This is some kind of comedy routine….right? innit?

    No wonder no one takes your allegations seriously.

  106. who invited wobert ?
    not got much to say though has he ? .
    probably one of the wss, innit

  107. You are a funny bunch of people!

    Technically NKT and WSS are different, as WSS is not governed by the NKT constitution.

    Practically they are different also as many people involved with the NKT did not participate in the demonstrations of 2008. There were also many participants at the demonstrations in America who had no connection with the NKT.

  108. Not good enough Adam !

  109. Strong stench of BS in the air. Please, Adam, it is the Charity Commission who are saying the NKT is the WSS. Maybe you send some tricky BS to them instead of just trying to con DI readers?

  110. “Technically” an elephant is no longer an elephant because it is accompanied by other animals? Dont think so.

  111. “Technically NKT and WSS are different, as WSS is not governed by the NKT constitution.” One might just as easily argue that, technically, the people of America are no longer the people of America because they are now governed by a different president with different political principles.Once again, as with the NKT and WSS, the base remains the same;only the label changes.

    NKT ‘debate’, a tactic stolen by the cult to use in their propaganda campaign, should actually be used for religious purposes. The frequent attempts to employ so called logic to establish the correctness of worldly views is another indication of mixing religion with politics, something the NKT condemn the Dalai Lama for and something which they claim they have never done. If the NKT is not a political organization, then neither are the SGI backed ‘Komeito’ (Clean Government’) party in Japan.Nor was the IRA ever anythin to do with Sinn Fein. This is just so much BS.

    If only people would understand that the Dalai Lama IS a political leader, a religious man with political responsibilities. Kelsang Gyatso too, is a political being. More so than the Dalai Lama because he claims repeatedly not to be, donning his ‘holier than everyone else ‘cloak to manipulate the innocent into throwing themselves into his personal ego battle against the Dalai. Does Kelsang Gyatso’s compassion not stretch to those beings who support him and who, in return, he dispatches to the lower realms?

  112. Even if NKT were the WSS (which they aren’t), so what?
    Even if NKT were totally lying and deceiving people (which they aren’t), so what?

    What difference does any of this make to you? I think you’re obsessed and your obsession is pointless.

    Surely you’ve got bigger problems than this? (like, your next life?)

  113. “Even if NKT were the WSS (which they aren’t), so what?”

    Charities have a duty to the public and funding bodies to make it clear to them exactly who they are and what they do with the money they get. Otherwise, its fraud and misuse of public money.

    “Even if NKT were totally lying and deceiving people (which they aren’t), so what?”

    You are suggesting “lying and deceiving people” doesn’t matter.

    “What difference does any of this make to you?”

    Yes, why should people care about the misuse of public funds and the abuse of their trust. lets just ignore it eh, and the world will become a better place.

    “Surely you’ve got bigger problems than this? (like, your next life?)”

    My problems and suffering are far smaller than those caused by the widespread lies,theft and manipulation of the truth to deceive the public into becoming embroiled in one mans personal hate campaign against another, especially when it casts them all down-remember, one moment of anger against a bodhisattva.

    If you want to talk about obsession, I suggest you talk to Gyatso about his preoccupation with proving how his version of ‘truth’ is the only valid one.

    Sorry Robert, but your view of the world is a photographic negative of the one held by everyone outside the NKT cult. Why not have the strength to stand on your own and look at the facts objectively? Looks like you cant at the moment-its a cult thing-the safety and security of the group, the need to belong to the ‘elite’-just dont express any views of your own that might contradict those of the glorious leader. Otherwise, you might find yourself on the long list of those threatened with legal action by the Third Buddha.

  114. Anonymous,

    You’ve created a ‘cult’, a world of deception and misuse of public funds. The NKT is a good organization doing good work – their aim is to spread inner peace throughout the world and they have a right to protect their reputation from being destroyed by lies and defamation from people who have a distorted view.

    Why you feel so strongly about this is beyond me. Write to the Charity Commision if you think you have a case, but you haven’t so there’s little point.

  115. Robert, Adam, Lineage Holder, Empty Mountains etc etc (Whoever you want us to think you are)

    Many would argue that it is Kelsang Gyatso and his inexperienced followers who “created a ‘cult’, a world of deception and misuse of public funds.”

    Yes the NKT “have a right to protect their reputation from being destroyed by lies and defamation from people who have a distorted view.” But how do you know that Inform’s publication or Beesley’s book contained these since you have never seen them?
    How do you know? And what about the right to free speech? Is that not allowed? Is your reputation so important to you that you must aggressively suppress all those who differ from you? Is free speech only permissible if it concurs with the NKT view? It certainly looks that way. What was it Kelsang Gyatso said to the NBO: “This is not feudal Tibet; everyone has the right to free speech”? Double standards or what?

    You advise “Write to the Charity Commision if you think you have a case, but you haven’t so there’s little point.”
    Why dont YOU write to the Charity Commission and ask?
    Someone obviously has. Otherwise, why would the Charity Commission have written “to the (NKT-IKBU) trustees to explain the legal position that applies to charities taking part in political activity and campaigning, and the duties and responsibilities that must be complied with” Did the Commission just decide to write such a letter uninvited? Obviously not. What are you going to do now the Commission have confirmed that the NKT and the WSS are one and the same: sue them?

    I also note that most of your response represents personal attacks on your critics rather than responding to questions and issues.Such evasive tactics seem to have become the staple fayre of the NKTs fanatical supporters across the web. I guess when there is no way to deny the truth of allegations, the easiest way not to answer them is to attack those who make them. most people are intelligent enough to see straight through such a tactic.

  116. Yes, if one examines Nobert’s posts, each contains little or nothing more than ridicule and denial, a tactic also frequently used by holocaust deniers.

    Where the two differ is that the estimate that six million Jews were murdered by the Nazis is accurate, whereas the NKT/WSS estimate of two/four/ many millions of practitioners of Shugden in Tibet has been repeatedly ridiculed by experts in the field. Andrew Brown’s article in the Independent, ‘Battle of the Buddhists’, written at the time of the first NKT campaign against the Dalai Lama in the late 90s, overestimated the figure at approximately 100,000.

    I guess the old adage about ‘lies, damned lies and statistics’ is applicable here, though I prefer Vic Reeves’ “88.2% of statistics are made up”.

    Shugden disciples do this all the time, pulling out rare quotes from Sakya texts (all published recently in Beijing) that refer to their protector as an enlightened being to prove that EVERYONE in Tibet worshiped the demon, even the bugs. Again, one finds them pointing to Mumford’s book ‘Himalayan Dialogue’ which itself points to a peculiar tradition amongst contemporary Nyingma farmers in Jyekundo having Shugden prayers done once a year ‘prove’ that even the Nyingma’s worshipped the deity for centuries.Really? Tell that to Pabongkha.

  117. Well, well. Whats wong wiv Wobert? Why wont wobert wepwy won wonders.
    (Is it because truth is hard to argue against?)

  118. wobs way out of his weague

  119. Removed by moderator

  120. Wadio Siwence-Obviouswy!

  121. Wobert Thomas Canada=NKT webcensor
    Only cults censor web content

  122. Google “Robert Thomas” “Thomas Canada” “NKT” and/or “WSS” if youre interested in this persons internet hate campaign against anyone who opposes the holy one, Kelsang Gyatso-‘He’ (if it is a he and not our Lucy) is quite prolific. Various other pseudonyms are employed.

    We all do it. Difference is, critics of the NKT use em of fear of being ID’d for NKT/WSS hate campaigns. Wobbie does it to create the impression that there’s a gigantic army of NKT supporters across the web. In fact, the crusade is run by a small ‘elite’, close, upper echelon insiders who sold their souls to the demon worshipper in return for power, status and recognition.
    Those lower in the hierarchy are simply duped via ignorance rather than fanatical devotion

    Same tactic, one moral motive, the other, a propaganda tactic.

  123. Comment removed

  124. JCB

    What rare quotes from Sakya texts are you refering to? The one from Sachen Kunga Lodro’s autobiography? Are you saying that this is a Chinese fabrication? What about the autobiography of Dragshul Trinley Rinchen in which he states that the various Sakya Trinzen’s held Shugden to be enlightened?

    Thing is, even if various Sakyas held Shugden to be enlightened, I don’t see it’s a big deal? It doesn’t make it any more or less true that Shugden is enlightened. After all, it’s not a numbers game. (That would just take us into argumentum ad populum territory.) The game is surely about validity of argument. And it seems to me that there, Shugden supports have a harder task as, for example, the so-called reincarnation lineage of Dorje Shugden seems to be full of holes.

  125. The numbers game is the NKT/WSS trip, not mine.(4 milllion Tibetans, Millions of Buddhists all over the world practice DS etc)

    The references to Sakya masters, clearly published by Beijing to rock the boat, are relatively scant considering the extent and history of the sect as a whole. Beijing are seeking these oddities out and publishing them to give credence to the DS followers claim that DS worship, as an enlightened being, was widespread in Tibet.

    Nowadays, as you know,, the Sakyas have abandoned the practice. The Kagyus loath it, the Nyingmas too, and the majority of Gelugs outside Tibet have dropped it. NKT/WSS are using these references to assert that this was not the case. They claim that this ‘problem’ is the fault of the present Dalai Lama whereas the controversy has existed throughout DS’ existence.

    As you say, the ‘lineage’ is like a sieve. So is the logic of political hatred propounded by the NKT/WSS Chinese puppets.

  126. I hope thats as clear as a bell;)

  127. If you look at DTR’s dates for example, only around five of the Sakya Trizins to whom he refers could have worshiped the deIty. The quote re his autobio gives the impression that ‘many’ did. The % works out at around 12% or around 1 in 10-see what I mean?

  128. Clear….and wrong.

    Please read this site which will give you the real History of Dorje Shugden practice.

    http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/among-shugden-texts.html

    The Sakyas don’t ‘loathe’ this practice – the present Sakya Trizin’s father was a Shugden practitioner. Nowadays, because of one powerful person’s wrong view, it’s not wise to be seen to propitiate Dorje Shugden, even though that person owes his life to the Deity.

    There is only one person who has a problem with Dorje Shugden – the present Dalai Lama. Everyone else has to agree with him or face persecution, including high Lamas. You’re all following one person’s wrong view. Sad really.

  129. Wisdom Moon

    I think Trinley Kelsang’s “Among the Shugden Texts” is a very useful piece of scholarship. But I can’t see that it addresses the fundamental question i.e. the nature of Dorje Shugden. Even if his work shows that more people than previously thought view Shugden an enlightened, this doesn’t prove he is. As I say, it’s not a numbers game.

    Even the fact that the Dalai Lama holds Shugden to be a spirit is not the point. The point is surely the validity (or otherwise) of the arguments he makes to support his position.

    Geshe Kelsang’s main argument that Dorje Shugden is enlightened is the so-called reincarnation lineage and, in my view, it’s pretty full of holes. Trinley Kelsang’s paper doesn’t in any way address this topic (and doesn’t set out to).

  130. Wisdom Moon. if you really WANT to play numbers

    It may well be that the present Sakya Trizin’s father propitiated DS-several in the Sakya did, though mainly as a lower deity, who received subjugation offerings (according to the Sakya Trizin, but not you). A few Sakyas also bought into the enlightenment myth, a fact much emphasized by the NKT/WSS/Chinese propaganda police to prove that every Tibetan Buddhist that ever existed in the ten directions apart from the 14th Dalai Lama saw DS as enlightened.

    However, your knowledge of the deity in the Sakya tradition is flawed as, once again, it is seen through the propaganda filter of the NKT/WSS publicity machine.

    I suggest you look into the activities of Khangsar Khenpo Ngawang Yonten Gyatso, for instance (see below), who actively sought to wipe out DS worship within the Sakya in the 1940s BEFORE the present Dalai Lama’s ascent to power.

    The 13th Dalai Lama, who many Tibetans believe to have been murdered by the deity, also condemned Pabongka for pushing the practice in Gelug monasteries-this is well documented fact.

    The Fifth also stated that the deity was an evil spirit (Yes, I know about Trode Khangsar [no historical proof] and the prayer supposedly written by him [which does not appear in his collected works])

    The negativity does not therefore arise “because of one powerful person’s wrong view”. This is just angry Kelsang Gyatso’s power hungry politics speaking.

    Again, the claim that the Dalai Lama owes his life to DS because it was he who advised him to ‘Go now’ is contradicted by the Dalai Lama himself who states that the oracle in question was Nechung. ‘It was at around this point that I consulted the Nechung oracle, which was hurriedly summoned. Should I stay or should I try to escape? What was I to do? … “Go, go tonight!”… The medium, still in his trance, then staggered forward and, snatching up some paper and a pen, wrote down, quite clearly and explicitly, the route that I should take out of the Norbulingka’ Tenzin Gyatso, Freedom in Exile (1990-first edition) p135-136.

    The assertion that the advisory oracle was Shugden is made in Alex Norman’s ‘Holder of the White Lotus: The Lives of the Dalai Lama’ (p 375). Norman’s source is Zimey Rinpoche’s Yellow Book. Lobsang Yeshe, who makes the claim in WSS propaganda was, like Zimey, a devout Shugden devotee.

    As for “There is only one person who has a problem with Dorje Shugden – the present Dalai Lama.” You seem to be overlooking all of the lamas and practitioners of the Sakya, Kagyu, Nyingma and Gelug (as well as the Bonpos), both in Tibet and in the West who also ‘have a problem’. Apart form your good selves and the Chinese government, who else is standing up on your behalf, to fight for your ‘religious freedom’? I see none-list them if you can.

    Dont try and teach your granny how to suck eggs. Your statements only reveal the extent of your ignorance of the history of the issue and the level of NKT/WSS brainwashing you have undergone.

    Now, as to Ngawang Yonten Gyatso, please read on, bearing in mind that the Dalai Lama wasnt even a teenager when this went on and that the country was being run by Takdra and Trijang, Pabongka’s henchmen

    , Ngawang Yonten Gyatso ‘….intensely disliked the particular tradition within the Dge lugs pa represented by Pha bong kha pa, and his main wrath was directed against the Cult of the protector Rdo rje shugs ldan….It was at Ngor that he began his ‘war’ on rDo-rje-shugs-ldan….he assessed the climate to be ripe for the destruction of the mask of Shugs-ldan….whom, it seems, he actually viewed as a physical enemy. He set out for Khams where he embarked upon a crusade against this deity. He visited the monastery of ‘Dam thog….and there destroyed the images and ritual objects of this cult. Then he came to Tharlam in about 1948….He called the monks together and told them of his crusade against Shugs ldan. He told them that Shugs ldan was not a protector of religion but that he was an evil spirit who would cause the doctrine to perish. He told them that this deity had caused him great obstacles in his previous incarnation….and that Shugs ldan had then actually caused his early death at age thirty-six….He proposed to destroy, if they would agree, the mask of this deity the following morning….Many of the monks feared the consequences of so provocative an act, and they were afraid of reprisals from the angered deity….The next morning, after prolonged prayers, he led a procession of monks into the Protector’s Chapel….He took down a revered mask of the deity from its shrine and carried it outside. He then hurled it into the fire, and then drew a pistol and shot at the mask numerous times.After the mask had been destroyed, he re-entered the Protector’s Chapel and removed all the ritual articles associated with that deity. These he had the monks carry down to the banks of the ‘Bri chu and hurl into the river…He defied Shugs ldan to take revenge.When nothing happened the frightened monks lost their faith in Shugs ldan… ’ in D P Jackson (2003) ‘A Saint in Seattle: The Life of the Tibetan Mystic Dezhung Rinpoche’ note 714 p 633-634

  131. “Please read this site which will give you the real History of Dorje Shugden practice.”
    Wisdom Moon

    “History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon.”
    Napoleon Bonaparte

  132. JCB,

    What does your extensive writing prove?

    1. the 5th and 13th Dalai Lama’s shared the14tth’s wrong view. They too were politically motivated in all their actions and committed many wrong deeds.

    2. Wrong views about Dorje Shugden are not restricted to the Dalai Lama – Ngawang Yonten Gyatso had them too. Anyone can develop wrong views.

    The Dalai Lama lied about getting advice from the Nechung Oracle (who actually told the Dalai Lama to stay in Tibet). He got the advice from Dorje Shugden instead.

    The writings of Trinley Kalsang are simply translations of texts that already exist, proving that previous high Sakya and Gelugpa Lamas propitiated Dorje Shugden as an enlightened being. SeekingClarity says that these writings do not address the nature of Dorje Shugden but they do. If you look at the praises in these texts, they clearly identify Dorje Shugden as an emanation of Manjushri, Avalokiteshvara and Vajrapani. Unless you are an enlightened being, you have to believe the teachings of the root and lineage Gurus, unlike the Dalai Lama who just invented his own tradition. There’s nothing to prove that Manjushri is an enlightened being either, but we accept scriptural authority on this matter; it’s the same with Dorje Shugden.

  133. Wisdom Moon

    When you say “scriptural authority”, what scripture do you have in mind?

    Sure, Morchen and Dre’u Lhas wrote a ritual prayer to Dorje Shugden. But this doesn’t qualify as scripture as sutra or tantra it ain’t. And one can simply level at Morchen and Dre’u Lhas the same accusation you level at the 5th, 13th and 14th Dalai Lamas, namely that they were mistaken about the nature of Shugden.

    Sure, Dagpo Kelsang Khedrub’s ritual appears to be the first to acknowledge Shugden as an emanation of Manjushri and sets out the Dorje Shugden reincarnation lineage used by Geshe Kelsang in Heart Jewel. But again, this 19th Century ritual hardly qualifies as scripture. And as I’ve said before, this is a reincarnation lineage which seems to be pretty full of holes. (E.g. were Sakyas wrong for 1000 years about Virupa?)

    OK, but you might claim that that Sachen Kunga Lodro draws on the Nyingma tantra rin chen sna bdun that states the Shugden is an emanation of Avalokiteshvara. But do we know anything about this tantra? Does a copy exist today? If so, in which collection?

    And if you’re going to get all scriptural on us, how do you explain that all other supramundane protectors e.g. Mahakala, Kalarupa, Palden Lhamo appear in Kangyur tantra whilst Shugden doesn’t?

    Are you resting your whole case on one obscure Nyingma tantra seemingly no longer extant? Funny, given that Pabongka, Trijang and Zemey are all clear that Dorje Shugden punishes Gelugpas who mixes their teachings and practices with Nyingma teachings and practices.

  134. So, after having claimed:
    “There is only one person who has a problem with Dorje Shugden – the present Dalai Lama.” and you are presented with clear evidence to the contrary, your response is that they were “politically motivated in all their actions and committed many wrong deeds.”, which is an admission that your first statement was wrong and that you have sufficient arrogance to consider yourself fit to judge the activities of three Dalai Lamas (without whom you wouldnt even be here)

    You then contradict yourself again by stating: “Wrong views about Dorje Shugden are not restricted to the Dalai Lama” whereas before you said “only one person who has a problem with Dorje Shugden – the present Dalai Lama.” ????????

    Then we get “The Dalai Lama lied about getting advice from the Nechung Oracle (who actually told the Dalai Lama to stay in Tibet). He got the advice from Dorje Shugden instead.”

    So thats you, Zimey and Lobsang Yeshe (all three Shugden worshippers) who say the Dalai Lama is a liar (NB ZImey and you werent there and L Yeshe onlyclaims to have been-the Dalai Lama certainly WAS there-but you say he’s a liar!)

    Nobody is denying that some Gelugs,some Sakyas and even one or two Drukpas called DS enlightened. But just because they called him this doesn’t make him it, any more than calling a football a television makes it a television.I tend to judge people on their actions-read the Yellow Book or take a look at the mess your making of Buddhism and tell me this is ‘enlightened activity’

    Then we get “Unless you are an enlightened being, you have to believe the teachings of the root and lineage Gurus” So whats the point in relying on logic, inference, testimony? Or havent you studied Pramana? or maybe you dont know this quote from the Buddha himself “Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” Or is this another instance of “Geshe-la says”?

    Then “the Dalai Lama who just invented his own tradition.” But you just admitted it wasnt only the present Dalai Lama who ‘invented” this tradition when you called the 5th and 13th “politically motivated” beings who “committed many wrong deeds”.

    Either you are very ill, brainwashed or deaf to the point that you cant hear the world laughing at your sieve like assertions. Your language is not that of a logician, it is that of an uneducated fanatic,and a not very clever one to boot. No wonder you use so many pseudonyms-your arguments hold about as much water as a sieve. It would be funny if your future wasnt so tragic.

    Truly, Kelsang Gyatso is duping the ignorant with his political lies-and youve gone for them hook, line and sinker, without so much as questioning them.
    Please, ask your guru to stop sending boys to do mens work.

  135. Just to add to JCB’s post, Geshe Kelsang uses the same quote from Buddha in Clear Light of Bliss

    Do not accept my teachings simply because I am called Buddha

    .

    Geshe Kelsang then notes that Buddha many times

    reminded his disciples not to accept his teachings out of blind faith, but to test them as thoroughly as they would assay gold.

    Can you honestly say that you’ve tested out the validity of the Dorje Shugden reincarnation lineage as thoroughly as you’ve assayed gold?

  136. SeekingClarity,

    At the end of the day, there is no way to directly perceive the nature of Dorje Shugden for ordinary beings, so it’s a question of what and who you believe.

    JCB seems to think that believing our root and lineage Gurus is contrary to pramana, but this is not so if we have established them to be completely reliable. In fact, ‘Buddha said’ is a valid argument that’s used in the lamrim teachings – for example, the syllogism “my Spiritual Guide is a Buddha because Conqueror Vajradhara said so” This is not contradicted by either direct or inferential valid cognition. Neither is “Dorje Shugden is a Buddha because the root and Lineage Gurus say that he is”.

    Let’s examine the Dalai Lama’s argument for why Dorje Shugden is a spirit – ‘because the 5th Dalai Lama said so” – not very convincing, but if you have faith in the Dalai Lama, you’ll believe it – and obviously many people do! Since this is relying solely on the authority of the Dalai Lama, it’s hypocritical to disparage Shugden practitioners for believing the words of their Gurus, surely?

  137. Reverse your argument

    In fact, ‘Buddha said’ is a valid argument that’s used in the lamrim teachings – for example, the syllogism “my Spiritual Guide is a Buddha because Conqueror Vajradhara said so” This is not contradicted by either direct or inferential valid cognition. Neither is “Dorje Shugden is a spirit because the root and Lineage Gurus say that he is.

    (Actually, direct, valid cognition trumps testimony, so your’e wrong there. Anyway, back to reversing your argument)

    Let’s examine Kelsang Gyatso’s argument for why Dorje Shugden is a Buddha– ‘because Pabongka said so” – not very convincing, but if you have faith in the Kelsang Gyatso, you’ll believe it – and obviously people do! Since this is relying solely on the authority of Kelsang Gyatso, it’s hypocritical to disparage Dalai Lama followers for believing the words of their Guru, surely?

    Your first statement “At the end of the day, there is no way to directly perceive the nature of Dorje Shugden for ordinary beings, so it’s a question of what and who you believe.” is an assertion that ordinary beings cannot rely on valid cognition and is therefore a rejection of Buddhist pramana.

    According to pramana ordinary beings (so-so’i skye-bo) can validly cognize. For example, when ordinary beings see someone experiencing something, such as “this person is being hit on the head with a clay pot,” they may validly know, with inferential cognition based on confidence, that this event is the result of a karmic cause. Inferential cognition based on confidence (yid-ches rjes-dpag) is considered the valid way of cognizing extremely obscure phenomena (shin-tu lkog-gyur), such as the details of karma.

    Moreover, you assert that the truth depends on what you believe-even a child can see the flaw in such an argument-I truly believe I am King of the Universe for example. I take LSD and truly believe I can fly-famous last words.

    Your whole belief system is based on faith in someone else’s words and the idea that truth is entirely subjective-its a mix of Islam and Kierkegaardian thought rather than Buddhism.

    See you in hell!

  138. Goose, you’re cooked!

    You’ll distort anything that anyone says and twist it to make yourself right. I never said that ordinary beings don’t have valid cognizers. I never said the truth is what you believe.

    It’s pointless discussing with unreasonable people who don’t respond to what people have written but rather what they THINK they’ve written….I’ve got better things to do. Peace out.

  139. Wisdom Moon

    In your reply to Goose you talk of people who don’t respond to what others have written.

    You asserted that there was “scriptural authority” for Shugden being enlightened. I reasonably asked you what authority you were referring to. You didn’t respond.

    Now it seems we’ve moved on from spiritual authority to faith in ones spiritual guide. (As an aside, Vajradhara’s statement that ones spiritual guide is a Buddha seems (almost) definitionally true when you look at the qualities of a spiritual guide set out by Maitreya.)

    Clearly, faith is important but I don’t see that faith exempts one from actually thinking about the evidence for what a teacher says. Here’s an example.

    In 1997, Geshe Kelsang wrote the following on Google Groups.

    “In the book by Dhongtog Tulku Tenpai Gyaltsen he says that Dorje Shugden cannot be a worldly spirit because he is a Bodhisattva.”

    Dhongtog is one of the foremost critics of the view that Dorje Shugden is enlightened. Read his book “Earth Shaking Thunder”. It’s been translated into English. Now it seems to me that if one dispassionately and objectively considers Geshe Kelsang’s statement, one has to conclude that it’s simply wrong. That’s where the evidence takes us.

    Now when someone points this out, one option is to say, “I have faith in my teacher and therefore his statement must be correct”. But the problem I have with this approach is that one is arguing that one is exempted from even considering the evidence presented, let alone applying ones critical faculties to the evidence.

    I say “Here are all Dhongtog’s books. I’ve had them translated into English for you. Read them. You’ll find that he consistently says Shugden is a gyalpo”. You say, “I have faith in my teacher. He must be correct”. “But read the books for yourself”, I say. “No need”, you say etc etc.

    This seems to me to be quite contrary to what Buddha said. He very clearly says don’t take my word for it just because I’m Buddha. Check it out.

    Hence my question about whether you’ve really considered the arguments for and against the validity of the reincarnation lineage?

  140. Wisdom Moon

    You are quite clear that

    Unless you are an enlightened being, you have to believe the teachings of the root and lineage Gurus.

    Pabongka is indisputably an NKT lineage guru. And in his letter to the novice Nyu’u Tshalmo Trang, he writes

    Apart from the doctrine of Manjughosha Tsongkhapa alone, these days the views of all Sakyas, Kagyus, Nyingmas and so on are erroneous. They are not even Svatantra or Cittamatra, let alone the view of Prasanga Madhyamaka – meditating only the nihilist view like tirthikas and Hashang. If one upholds the nihilist view, the result is nothing other than going to Avichi hell. Since they can’t recognize subtle lethargy, even their meditation is defective. Apart from the thunderous noise of their pretentious boasting about profound secret mantra, they don’t even know the direction of bliss and emptiness, luminosity, union and so on. Since for them liberation and path of omniscience does not exist, realization will not arise even if they practice for a thousand years, as pointless as wishing for butter by churning water.

    Thus, I assume that you have to believe this particular teaching of this particular lineage guru?

  141. By and large, Tibetans, including the late Trijang Rinpoche’s student (by that I mean those who had a personal relationship with the man, not via hippy seance in the UK after his death) do not buy the fairy story that dolgyal granted safe passage to HHDL’s party when escaping Tibet.
    Can someone explain to me why Song Rinpoche (a big demon fan) felt it necessary to bear arms and wear an ammo belt when leaving Tibet, if the gyalpo spirit proffers protection from harm?

  142. Hi Clarity

    TBRC W29252 “pha bong kha pa’i slob ma’i dgag lan
    Volume 1 pages 3 – 482″ really needs translating and it looks like you have been doing a bit. Please feel free post anything you find interesting from it here. Your Tibetan is like my ability to make mistakes (excellent), whereas mine is like my maths (Kyagpa!)

    Of particular interest would be the letters from between 1938 and 1940 where he made repeated requests to Kham’s Kuomintang military governor, Lui Chuntrang, to forcibly supress local monasteries belonging to the Sakya, Kagyu and Nyingma traditions for propounding their “wrong view of emptiness”. (No doubt, NKT clones will have much to say in support of that)

    Any of the other letters from volume Cha which in the words of Dhohgthog Rinpoche:

    ‘…consists of letters and admonitions to lamas, tulkus, geshes, Chinese and Tibetan patrons, all in promotion of this sectarian bias.’ would be helpful in proving the lineage of KG is a sectarian aberration.

    I guess KG will then deny the validity of the quotes as he has done with the Yellow Book. Funny, AFAICS, Trijang instructed Zimey to write it. Didnt KG claim Trijang was his root guru? Wonder how he squirms out of that contradiction?

  143. I wonder if we’ll get radio silence here or will they bring in the ‘big guns’ (so far NKT input here has been woeful in its content and logic)

    -Its difficult for the poor things here as all can see both sides of the argument. On wikipedia they just obliterate everything they disagree with. At last, open debate, in the public domain, without biased censorship. And now look who’s crowing about the superiority of their ‘tradition’.

    What next, more threats of legal action? maybe one day there will be mre people in the world that have been threatened with legal action by the NKT than those who havent???

  144. Goose

    I’m afraid I don’t read a word of Tibetan. The passage from Pabongka was posted by Namdrol on the Lazy Buddhist website in 2008. See

    http://lazybuddhist.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/dirty-laundry/#comment-1979

    Two of the three letters Pabongka wrote to the Chinese general were translated by the Dalai Lama’s office though they are seemingly not widely available on the web now. But they can be found here.

    http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?boardID=301&discussionID=415995

    Whilst they contain pretty robust language, they don’t explicitly request the general to supress the monasteries. If Pabongka makes this request in the third letter, I’m surprised no-one’s translated it yet.

    Geshe Kelsang’s statements on the Yellow Book are very much at odds with those of Zemey, Trijang, Pabongka and Tagpo. I don’t think that the NKT has ever really offered a coherent explanation for this or for how they understand Pabongka’s very dim view of other traditions.

  145. JCB

    I think it’s fair to say that, over the years, there’s been some open debate on the web. There were certainly robust discussions on Google Groups in the late 90s. See one example here.

    There were also a couple of interesting threads on Lazy Buddhist (here and here) and there was a monster discussion following a Tricycle blog post on Shugden (here).

    So a lot of this stuff’s been kicked around for some time, though it’s probably passed many in the NKT by.

  146. JCB: The cult don’t have any ‘big guns’ ,Rodney Bilman (aka Trinley Kalsang) included, his ‘scholarship’ is over-rated. All those years dressing up in Tibetan costumes and calling each other Tibetan names and nobody bothered to learn the lingua franca.

    Here is a link for a photo posted on Tricycle blog, “three things considered inappropriate, choshum in bedroom, pointing sole of running shoes shoes towards it, guess the third”

    converse

  147. Namkhah

    I’d be interested in hearing a little more as to why you think that Rodney’s scholarship is over-rated.

    There are some who have claimed that no Sakya have ever seen Shugden as enlightened and I think Rodney’s work suggests that this is not so.

    Also, seems to me that Rodney makes some legitimate criticisms of Dreyfus’s paper.

    That said, and as I said above, I don’t think Rodney’s work builds a strong case that Shugden is enlightened.

  148. Well for a start, he insisted on rendering rNam. thar, past life stories, here regarding the apocryphal history of the gyalpo spirit as Jataka stories, which has always only reserved for Lord Buddha, not for lamas, saints and certainly not for worldly protectors. Secondly, his adapting Gene Smith’s book title ‘Among Buddhist Texts’ to Among Sxxxxxx Texts’ I find highly pretentious, Gene Smith is indeed very literate and made a huge contribution to preserving Tibetan literature–Rodney, not so much. Also if one looks at Rodney’s footnotes, all the sources are in English, I’m not convinced he can read Tibetan at all.

  149. Namkah

    Many of the sources in Rodney’s footnotes are in Tibetan. I’m sure he does read the language!

    BTW, what do you make of the quote from Sachen Kunga Lodro’s autobiography where he claims Shugden is Avalokiteshvara?

    From the Nyingma tantra rin chen sna bdun, the one entitled the Great King, Dolgyal, he who is known as Dolgyal is not mistaken on the path to liberation, and is in essence the Great Compassionate One (Avalokiteshvara).

  150. The quote is obscure, he should reproduce the citation as a pdf file, otherwise I doubt him too much to bother. I also find the citation of anthropologist Mumford and the short lived Drukpa Jigme Norbu (1831-1861) very slender evidence indeed. Generally, Rodney is doing what the Chinese do on the question of Tibetan sovereignty: start with a rigid conclusion, and then hunt for any shred of ‘historical evidence’ to spin your fictive narrative, one could say this is putting the cart before the horse.
    In his own word Rodney laments:” I wish I had the patience and perseverance to continue but it’s so thoroughly disgusting to focus any more attention on the Dalai Lama’s speeches and remarks. It can’t possibly be good for a person. As a crude analogy, it would be like trying to overcome desire by looking at pornography.”
    Enough said, Rodney is a waste of time, he can stew in his own soup.

  151. looks like the gloves are off
    why dont we meet in the old albion carpark and have a scrap ? sort it out once and for all

  152. Im up for it-they can bring Shugden and we’ll bring the protectors of the four real traditions and Guru Dragphur-what time do we start?

    Thank goodness some serious scholarly translations of the Pabongka texts are emerging. I wonder if NKT clones will now claim that statements are not sectarian because TKPs view IS the only correct philosophical view? Ive seen that somewhere already-I guess that means that the heads of the three red Hat sects are not enlightened eh?

    The Rinchen Nedun (sorry about the transliteration and BTW, the text doesnt appear to exist) is just another rare instance of someone claiming DS is enlightened. Nobody is arguing that some Sakyas asserted this. The point is the practice is now anathema in the Sakya and was considered so before the 14th made it out of nappies. Funny how things change repeatedly down the centuries so DS practice can become acceptable for a while for example but when it happens in our own period it is treated like a politically motivated aberration??

    I would also like to take a look at most of Billman’s reference sources from somewhere other than those in the recent Beijing publications. Previous collections would be preferable fr obvious reasons.

    AFAICS Billman is no academic, he just translates Tibetan (and lets not put academics on a pedestal-most of us/them dont know shit-I take my advice from lamas, not 2nd year PhD students)

    it strikes me that the reason Beijing are churning these texts out is to throw gasoline on the fire. As usual, fanatics and the politcally minded love to search out historical rarities and then point to them as evidence of widespread DS worship (Mumford’s book has been used like this).

    This is clearly what the Chinese are doing and then sending these texts to the NKT/WSS through their eastern branch, the DSDCRS in Delhi. Now though, we are producing counter arguments via such texts as those by pabongka referred to above.

    Lets not get too stuck in debate mode though. Just remembering that the NKT is a political money making goblin worshipping cult run by zealots is enough to put me off. Oh for the days when people just think of themselves as Buddhists (and even that is limiting-I bet the Buddha didnt do it)

  153. ’bout half 7 ok ?
    im not feared of the nkt / wss any more, so is it ok if i throw the first thunderbolt ?
    come and have a go…..

  154. Their goin ome in a f££88n ambulance!
    Left side boys we are ere, ello!

  155. CELTIC!!!
    WE ARE THE LEFT SIDE !!!
    THEY AINT GOT A £00KIN CHANCE !!!

  156. Two letters Pabongkha sent to the Chinese General, Lu Chu Tang demonstrating spiritual elitism and sectarianism

    “In these days most of the Emperors and kings misperceive the barbaric religion as the best religion and have turned their backs against the nectar of the Buddha’s teaching and opened the gate wide towards the lower realm for themselves and as well as their subjects. At such a time as a great leader and also because of your strong prayers and merits, you have respected only Manjughosha Tsongkhapa’s teaching lineage, which is the core of the Buddha’s teachings, and put it on the crown of your head and held it firm at your heart. You have thus spread and propagated the unsullied teaching in many provinces including your own and have sown the seed of the path of liberation. I am grateful to you and the more I reflect the more my mind is flooded with rejoicing and admiration, like the waves of oceans touching the sky. Thank you very much.

    Still on this earth, many other faiths like Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Comfucianism (lit Kong-tse) Bon and so on flourish and each of them claims their own system as the best. However, except in the teaching of the Buddha, all the others do not have the path to liberation. They do not even have the potential to abandon even one type of afflictive emotions. Even if they practice and uphold their faith in great hardship for a long time, it will simply open the gate of the lower realms and no positive result will be achieved at all from them. They are merely deceptive words showing what is not a path as a path.

    On the other hand, in the case of the Buddha’s teaching, it easily bestows the “State of Liberation and Omniscience”, closes the door of rebirth in samsara and the lower realms and it is possible to eradicate completely the 84,000 classes of afflictive emotions and their propensities. In this teaching, without requiring much hardship, one can travel from a peaceful path to a peaceful fruit. Since this true teaching is always non-deceptive, we should endeavour to make our life meaningful from a long term perspective and follow only the teaching of the Buddha. Although this teaching has four tenets, it is only the Prasangika Madhyamika which realises the unmistaken emptiness, which is free from the abyss of permanence and nihilism, and which is the ultimate and exact intention of the Buddha.

    Although in the land of Tibet there are many different tenets like that of Nyingma, Kugyu, Sakya, Gelugpa and so forth it is only the
    Gelug School which establishes the unmistaken view of emptiness and the Prasangika Madhyamika system which is the philosophy of Nagarjuna. It is not only the philosophical view but also in terms of meditation it is the perfect meditation devoid of laxity and
    torpor. As for its behaviour it is again pure as it is practiced in accordance with the vinaya teachings. Thus it is only the Gelug School which knows how to adopt the three: the view, the meditation, the behaviour and in fact the complete teaching of the Buddha as one integrated practice in the form of the stages of the path to enlightenment.

    Thus this system of teaching of Tsongkhapa is the heart essence of the Buddha’s teaching and is therefore like a pinnacle of the victorious banner. As such to uphold this teaching by oneself and to disseminate it to others is the best and far- reaching Boddhisattva way of practice. As a great leader you have done the best to spread this teaching in the province of China just as you have done in the past. And also in the regions of Kham you have restored and further developed the teachings through various means. I will be grateful for your continuous noble Boddhisattva conduct of upholding the responsibility of the Gelug School.

    Letter 2

    Honest expression of the General presentation of Inner and Outer Tenets of the World.

    In general there are many religions in this world. Every follower thinks that his own faith is the best. However, if we honestly examine, Christianity and Islam are barbarism and therefore are the worst and there is no other religion worse than these. The non- Buddhist systems like that of Kapila and Sankhya are slightly better than the aforementioned faiths but they do not have the path to liberation. They may undertake great hardships like self-immolation and jumping upon a trident but there is no path to liberation. They open the gate to the lower realms.

    The so-called Bonpo is also not at all different from the other non-Buddhist faiths. Far from achieving liberation it opens the door to the lower realms. Since Confucianism is also not the teaching of the Buddha it simply gives temporary happiness but not liberation. As all these systems are opposite to the Buddha’s teachings, leave aside achieving Buddhahood, they do not at all have the path to liberation. One cannot show even a single example of one who has achieved liberation after having practiced these faiths. Without exception most of them fall into the unfathomable lower realms. It is only Buddhism which is the path of liberation.

    Even in Buddhism, the compassionate Buddha Shakyamuni knew that if the profound and ultimate truth of emptiness were taught right at the outset, it would not be understood by the followers. Just as children are gradually taught, starting from the alphabet, in the same way at first easily understandable teachings were taught. Therefore he first taught the Vaibhashika system which explains grosser meanings of selflessness of persons. After that he taught the Sautantrika system which is more profound than the previous one. Then he taught the Mind Only School, which is again more profound and which teaches the grosser selflessness of phenomena. It is this school which Thangsen Lama propagated in China. After that he taught the Madhyamika system which explains tsubtle selflessness, the ultimate view. Here also we have Indian acharyas Bhavaviveka; Shantarakshita, who even though they have entered the Madhyamika philosophy could not fathom the meaning of very subtle emptiness, the ultimate intention of the Buddha. Thus they are mid-dling Madhyamikas and they are known as the Svatantrika Madhyamikas.We also have Indian Acharyas like Buddhapalita and Chandrakirti who had unmistakenly fathomed and realised the ultimate intention of the Buddha, which was trail-blazed by Nagarjuna, and they are called Prasangika Madhyamikas.

    Regarding the path of liberation and Buddhahood, there are two parts: wisdom and method. All those tenet systems below the Svatantrikas have found the unmistaken path of the method but have failed to realise the ultimate view which is the wisdom aspect, and therefore they have not realised the ultimate emptiness but just a facsimile. Hence it is only the Prasangika Madhyamika System which realises the unmistaken subtle emptiness, the ultimate thought of the Buddha.

    There is not even a single individual who has realised the subtle emptiness without entering into the Prasangika System. In the absence of this realisation it is not possible to attain enlightenment. Therefore this Prasangika Madhyamika System, the system of Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti is the best, the supreme and the peak among the four Buddhist Tenet Systems. In Tibet there are many systems of Buddhist teachings like Nyingma, Kagyu, Sakya, Jonang, Bodong and others. All these are Buddhist teachings and they all have wonderful methods of accumulation of merits, purification of obstructions, meditation on deities and recitation of mantras. Through these practices one can achieve liberation. Therefore these are a hundred thousand million times better than Christianity, Islam and other non-Buddhist teachings. However, there is no system like that of Tsongkhapa’s, which is complete, unmistaken, profound and fast.

    Although each of the Tibetan philosophical schools feel and assert that their own philosophy is that of Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti and thus the philosophy of Prasangika, because of its very subtle nature the followers could not realise the main intention of their preceding learned scholar practitioners and have thus erred. Most of them have become like the philosophy of Hvashang Mahayana. By becoming so one will fall into nihilism and will become the cause for hell. Therefore, in Tibet, except Tsongkhapa’s philosophy, all others are mistaken. As such I can affirm that at present on this earth and beneath the sky it is only the refined gold, like Manjushri Tsongkhapa’s system which is alone totally faultless in every aspect, be it the philosophical view, the meditation or the conduct. It is complete, profound and extensive and if one has the knowledge and the ability to practice this teaching properly then one will be able to attain Buddhahood within twelve human years or even in three years and three fortnights.

    This can be sustained through thousands of reasonings and references. The core of the teaching is the path to enlightenment alone. While this wonderful philosophy is existent many unfortunately adhere strongly to inferior teachings. Many such people are there in Tibet as well, which is a clear indication of lack of merit. The establishment of Tsongkhapa’s teaching, the core of the Buddha’s teachings, in your
    country is such a rare priviledge that even tens and hundreds of millions of merits accumulated by Lord Indra and Brahma cannot equal even a portion of this merit. This is really fortunate.”

    .

  157. JCB, Namkhah

    Have you had a close look at Rodney’s bibliography?

    Of the 18 works listed, only one was published in Beijing. By contrast, four – including the autobiography or Sachen Kunga Lodro – are held by the Tibetan Buddhist Resource Centre.

    So I’m stuggling see much mileage in your “Beijing” criticism. Any thoughts?

  158. I prostrate to Je Pabongkhapa, a true master of the Gelugpa tradition, unlike the Dalai Lama who’s on some ‘all paths are equal’ hippie trip.

    Je Pabongkhapa is not being sectarian, he’s extolling the special qualities of the Madhyamika Prasangika system. He’s also right. There’s only one meaning of emptiness that eradicates delusions and without it, we cannot abandon our faults. For this reason It’s wrong to say that all paths lead to the same destination, clearly they do not. It’s not sectarian to use wisdom to discriminate correct paths from incorrect paths – indeed, we need to use our discriminating wisdom in this way rather than saying “there are many paths up the mountain and they all lead to the same place” That’s just new age feel-good rubbish. There is no path to liberation other than the three higher trainings. There is no path to enlightenment other than the practice of bodhichitta, the six perfections and the paths of generation stage and completion stage of Highest Yoga Tantra. These are the only paths that create the causes necessary to achieve these results.

    We should respect all paths, of course, and everyone’s right to follow whatever path they choose but to say that all paths are the same is foolish.

  159. Nobody said they were. As I said to a friend, I wonder if some NKT clown will come along and say none of the above is sectarian because its philosophically correct (read ‘concurs with what Geshe-la says’)

    Here, in brief ,are a few examples of what you call ‘non-sectarian’

    With respect to the great world religions:

    “They do not even have the potential to abandon even one type of afflictive emotions. Even if they practice and uphold their faith in great hardship for a long time, it will simply open the gate of the lower realms and no positive result will be achieved at all from them.”

    so Christianity doesnt teach patience or love, both antidotes to the afflictions?

    Or how about:

    “if we honestly examine, Christianity and Islam are barbarism and therefore are the worst and there is no other religion worse than these.”

    Islamism has its faults and Christianity too has made a few mistakes (smashing images and destroying monasteries of other traditions, for instance-sound familiar?) but the ‘worst religions in the world’? Does that include Phoenician practices of child sacrifice?

    Or the Bonpos:

    “The so-called Bonpo is also not at all different from the other non-Buddhist faiths. Far from achieving liberation it opens the door to the lower realms.”

    So the Bonpos dont observe positive and negative karma principles, leading to upper realm rebirth. I’m no Tibetan/Bonpo expert but i suggest you do a little research. You’ll find they do and therefore the statement “Without exception most of them fall into the unfathomable lower realms” is both wrong and hateful.

    With ‘respect’ to the Red Hat sects

    “Although in the land of Tibet there are many different tenets like that of Nyingma, Kugyu, Sakya, Gelugpa and so forth it is only the Gelug School which establishes the unmistaken view of emptiness and the Prasangika Madhyamika system which is the philosophy of Nagarjuna. It is not only the philosophical view but also in terms of meditation it is the perfect meditation devoid of laxity and torpor. As for its behaviour it is again pure as it is practiced in accordance with the vinaya teachings. Thus it is only the Gelug
    School which knows how to adopt the three: the view, the meditation, the behaviour and in fact the complete teaching of the Buddha as one integrated practice in the form of the stages of the path to enlightenment.”

    Therefore, it is totally impossible to achieve enlightenment through any path other than the Gelug one-Not sectarian? I guess this also means the Karmapas, Sakya Trizins and so on, both from traditions which pre-date the Gelug, werent enlightened.Not sectarian, you say?

    Now for the Nyingma founding father, without whom Buddhism would not have been established in Tibet.

    “Here also we have Indian acharyas Bhavaviveka;
    SHANTARAKSHITA, who even though they have entered the Madhyamika philosophy could not fathom the meaning of very subtle emptiness, the ultimate intention of the Buddha.”

    Now for the philosophers of the other traditions(who are also all totally lost)

    “Although each of the Tibetan philosophical schools feel and assert that their own philosophy is that of Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti and thus the philosophy of Prasangika, because of its very subtle nature the followers could not realise the main intention of their preceding learned scholar practitioners and have thus erred. Most of them have become like the philosophy of Hvashang Mahayana. By becoming so one will fall into nihilism and will become the cause for hell. Therefore, in Tibet, except Tzongkhapa’s philosophy, all others are mistaken.”

    So the Sakyas (who condemned Tzongkhapa’s understanding as verging on nihilism) were wrong?
    The Kagyus too, who teach Buddha Nature as a definitive rather than interpretive truth and therefore contradict Tzongkhapa dont understand so theyre going to hell.

    Unless of course Pabongka meant someone else in Tibet when he claimed

    “While this wonderful philosophy is existent many unfortunately adhere strongly to inferior teachings. Many such people are there in Tibet as well,
    which is a clear indication of lack of merit.”

    Ah well, i guess only Gelugpas who follow Tzongkhapa get enlightened eh?

    Not sectarian? Your full of s***t! This is unadulterated poison emanating from the lips of the author of Tibets destruction. And you want this demon possessed megalomaniacs descendants to run things in the West? Dream on.

    What was it you said “We should respect all paths, of course, and everyone’s right to follow whatever path they choose”?

    You mean like Pabongkha?

  160. The only new age poop is from the evangelist cult that promoted an obscure ghost to higher office.

    The simple fact is, this spirit worship is sectarian and sectarianism is harmful. The Dalai Lama had the guts to do something about it. Now you Gelug supremacists don’t like it, but you were never supposed to.

    Before the Dalai Lama started opposing this spirit worship the great non-sectarian lama, Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro wrote to Jigme Damchoe Gyatsho about Phabongkhapa’s sectarianism

    Some followers of Ven. Phabongkha Dechen Nyingpo Rinpoche engaged in heated argument on the philosophical tenets of the new and the ancient. They engaged in many wrong activities like destroying images of Padmasambhava and those of other peaceful and wrathful deities, saying that reciting the mantra of the Vajra Guru is of no value and fed the Padma Kathang to fire and water. Likewise, they stated that turning Mani prayer wheels, observing weekly prayers for the deceased etc. are of no purpose and thus placed many on the path of wrong view. They held Gyalpo Shugden as the supreme refuge and the embodiment of all the Three Jewels. Many monks from small monasteries in the Southern area claimed to be possessed by Shugden and ran amok in all directions destroying the three reliquaries (images of the Buddha, scriptures and stupas) etc. displaying many faults and greatly harming the teaching of Je Tsongkhapa, the second Conqueror. Therefore, if you could compose an instructive epistle benefitting all and could publish it and distribute it throughout the three (provinces) U, Tsang and Kham it would greatly contribute to counteracting the disturbance to the teaching.

    Before the Dalai Lama opposed this sectarian spirit worship Stephan Beyer wrote an account showing the sectarianism found amongst Phabongkhapa’s followers

    The image was lent to a monastery of the “ancient” Nyingma sect named Kajegon and located in the capital of Dragyab, right next to another monastery of the Gelug sect. Indeed, it had been founded by the abbot of the latter monastery, an incarnation called Lord of Refuge Dragyab, who had been fascinated by the “ancient” teachings. The two neighbor monasteries shared the same facilities and officers, differing only in the performance of their rituals in their individual temples; and here the image rested in the amity of these sometimes rival sects.

    When the Lord of Refuge Dragyab died, his monastery was taken over, during the minority of his reincarnation, by a regent named Zangmar toden, who was a very different sort of man from the former abbot. Zangmar has originally followed the “ancient” sect (he had been a disciple of the famous Drugu Shakyashri of Soderka) but then had moved to Ch’amdo, where he met and became the disciple of a Gelug lama named Master P’awang kawa.

    Zangmar had fallen under the spell of this new and impressive personality. P’awang kawa was undoubtedly one of the great lamas of the early twentieth century, but he was a man of contradictory passions, and he shows us two different faces when he is recalled by those who knew him. In many ways he was truly a saint; he was sent to Ch’amdo by the central government to represent its interests and administer its Gelug monasteries, and he was sympathetic to the concerns of the K’am people over whom he had been granted jurisdiction, a scholar and an enthusiast for all aspects of Tibetan culture. But many eastern Tibetans remember him with loathing as the great persecutor of the “ancient” sect, devoting himself to the destruction throughout K’am of images of the Precious Guru and the burning of “ancient” books and paintings

    P’awang kawa sent his new disciple back to take charge of the Gelug monastery in Dragyab; Zangmar, with the zeal of the convert, carried with him only his master’s sectarianism and implemented only his policy of destruction. He tried to force the monks of Kajegon (who were technically under his authority) to perform the Gelug rituals, and when they obstinately continued to refuse he called in the government police on a trumped up charge of treason. They raided Kajegon, broke its images, made fire of its books and paintings, and beat its monks with sticks. The head monk, who carried with him by chance that day our image of Tara, tried to stop them; while one policeman threatened him with a stick, another shot him in the back.

    Before the Dalai Lama opposed this spirit worship, it was fiercely opposed by Ngawang Yonten Gyatso. David Jackson writes

    Ngag-dbang-yon-tan-rgya-mtsho’s main wrath was directed against the cult of the protector rDo-rje-shugs-ldan which Pha-bong-kha-pa had popularized in various dGe-lugs-pa circles. (In the early 1940s gangs of young monks in certain dGe-lugs-pa dominted areas of Khams such as Chab-mdo, Brag-gyab and Lho-rdzong were causing so much havoc through their Shugs-ldan group “possessions” that the central government’s Governor of Khams in Chab-mdo finally was compelled to punish three ringleaders by flogging.”….

    Ngag-dbang-yon-tan-rgya-mtsho explained to the Khri-du monks and people, “Shugs-ldan is no good. He is evil. He’s not a protector, he’s a ghost! He has a long history of causing harm. There’s no use invoking a ghost.” In this way he convinced the monks to cease the practice, and removed all images and articles of worship from the monastery.”

    “At Thar-lam monastery, he summoned the monks and told them of his campaign against Shugs-ldan. That deity, he said, was not a protector of religion, but rather an evil spirit who destroyed the doctrine… He proposed to destroy, if they would agree, the mask of this deity the next morning.
    …He took down a revered mask of the deity from its shrine and carried it outside. He hurled it into a bonfire and drew a pistol, shooting at the mask numerous times. After annihilating the mask, he reentered the Protector’s chapel and removed the other ritual articles….

    Afterward, he re-consecrated the chapel to the deity Beg-tse. He defied Shugs-ldan to take revenge. When nothing occurred, the monks lost faith in Shugs-ldan and accepted the new protective deity. In sGa-pa, Ngag-dbang-yon-tan-rgya-mtsho thus stamped out the practice of rDo-rje-shugs-ldan, at least in Sa-skya-pa circles, almost completely.

  161. Did you get all that? Do you see anything ‘non-sectarian’ about any of the above? What everyone else sees is an account of the antics of a megalomaniac running amok after the death of the man he promised ‘from the depths of his heart’ that he would never practice or promulgate Shugden again. So he was liar as well!
    NKT run Buddhism in the West? Not on any sane persons watch.

  162. Robert writes

    I prostrate to Je Pabongkhapa, a true master of the Gelugpa tradition, unlike the Dalai Lama who’s on some ‘all paths are equal’ hippie trip.

    Geshe Kelsang states

    Of course! Of course we believe that every Nyingmapa and Kagyupa have their complete path. Not only Gelugpa. I believe that Nyingmapas have a complete path. Of course, Kagyupas are very special. We very much appreciate the example of Marpa and Milarepa [in the Kagyu lineage]. Milarepa showed the best example of guru devotion. Of course the Kagyupas as well as the Nyingmapas and the Sakyapas, have a complete path to enlightenment. Many Nyingmapas and Kagyupas practice very sincerely and are not just studying intellectually. I think that some Gelugpa practitioners need to follow their practical example. But we don’t need to mix our traditions. Each tradition has its own uncommon good qualities, and it is important not to lose these. We should concentrate on our own tradition and maintain the good qualities of our tradition, but we should always keep good relations with each other and never argue or criticize each other. What I would like to request is that we should improve our own traditions while maintaining good relations with each other. (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, An Interview With Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Tricycle: the Buddhist Review, No. 27, Spring 1998, p. 76)

    Gosh, Robert, it looks like Geshe Kelsang’s on…how do you put it…”some ‘all paths are equal’ hippie trip”!

  163. Robert

    Pabongka is an NKT lineage guru. He states

    these days the views of all Sakyas, Kagyus, Nyingmas and so on are erroneous. They are not even Svatantra or Cittamatra, let alone the view of Prasanga Madhyamaka – meditating only the nihilist view like tirthikas and Hashang. If one upholds the nihilist view, the result is nothing other than going to Avichi hell

    Geshe Kelsang is an NKT lineage guru. He states

    Of course the Kagyupas as well as the Nyingmapas and the Sakyapas, have a complete path to enlightenment.

    Strikes me that their views are somewhat at odds. Perhaps you might advise on how this particular circle can be squared?

  164. Phabongka had the right to express his opinions. The Dalai Lama has the right to express his.

    However, as the Dalai Lama occupies such an important place within Tibetan society he also has a duty to maintain peace and harmony among Tibetans.

    If Dorje Shugden practitioners are misguided and mistaken with respect to their spiritual practice then they should be viewed with compassion.

  165. Deep down the Dalai Lama knows that his own position is mistaken.

    He could do with some psychoanalytic psychotherapy to get to the root of some of his confusions and delusions.

    Humm…. little chance of that me-thinks!

    Tis sad to see people so thoroughly taken in by someone else’s delusions.

    (I’m sure you’ll turn that one back on me. I can’t really blame you for that!)

  166. Turn what back on you; the claim that you can perceive the minds of others? No, you’ve already made yourself look totally ridiculous with the above response (something you and your colleagues are becoming extremely adept-no wonder Kelsang G instructed his followers to stay out of debating on the web [yes, he did-and here you are going against your gurus instructions).

    You have not responded to even one of the massive contradictions cited above, instead claiming that the Dalai Lama is a loonie!Ad hominem attacks-classic cult response!

    Did the Dalai Lama run amok burning monasteries in Tibet? Does his paranoia lead to him issuing libel writs against anything that moves? Does he claim to be non-sectarian while simultaneously claiming that his is the only form of pure Buddhism, while all others are degenerate?

    What is it you said, “Tis sad to see people so thoroughly taken in by someone else’s delusions”

    Keep going man, if you wish. but my advice is, when your’e in a hole, stop digging. As it is, you and your fellow cybermen have provided enough evidence here to prove what a bunch of dodgy sectarian fanatics Gyatso is breeding in his taxpayer financed incubation mansions.

  167. Actually, keep going. The stuff you people are posting here is clear evidence of sectarian fanaticism running wild in the name of Western Buddhism. Any independent minded person would take one look at this and immediately see why so many are concerned about the NKT-the Scientologists of Buddhism! Have some more rope!

  168. Seeking Clarity, stop seeking-you already have it!

  169. This is what you claim to be non-sectarian?

    “In these days most of the Emperors and kings misperceive the barbaric religion as the best religion and have turned their backs against the nectar of the Buddha’s teaching and opened the gate wide towards the lower realm for themselves and as well as their subjects…. Still on this earth, many other faiths like Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Confucianism (lit Kong-tse) Bon and so on flourish and each of them claims their own system as the best. However, except in the teaching of the Buddha, all the others do not have the path to liberation. They do not even have the potential to abandon even one type of afflictive emotions. Even if they practice and uphold their faith in great hardship for a long time, it will simply open the gate of the lower realms and no positive result will be achieved at all from them. They are merely deceptive words showing what is not a path as a path…However, if we honestly examine, Christianity and Islam are barbarism and therefore are the worst and there is no other religion worse than these.

    Although in the land of Tibet there are many different tenets like that of Nyingma, Kagyu, Sakya, Gelugpa and so forth it is only the Gelug School which establishes the unmistaken view of emptiness and the Prasangika Madhyamika system which is the philosophy of Nagarjuna. It is not only the philosophical view but also in terms of meditation it is the perfect meditation devoid of laxity and torpor. As for its behaviour it is again pure as it is practiced in accordance with the vinaya teachings. Thus it is only the Gelug School which knows how to adopt the three: the view, the meditation, the behaviour and in fact the complete teaching of the Buddha as one integrated practice in the form of the stages of the path to enlightenment…. Here also we have Indian acharyas Bhavaviveka, Shantarakshita, who even though they have entered the Madhyamika philosophy could not fathom the meaning of very subtle emptiness, the ultimate intention of the Buddha….There is not even a single individual who has realised the subtle emptiness without entering into the Prasangika System. In the absence of this realisation it is not possible to attain enlightenment.

    The so-called Bonpo is also not at all different from the other non-Buddhist faiths. Far from achieving liberation it opens the door to the lower realms…Without exception most of them fall into the unfathomable lower realms.

    In Tibet there are many systems of Buddhist teachings like Nyingma, Kagyu, Sakya, Jonang, Bodong and others… However, there is no system like that of Tsongkhapa’s, which is complete, unmistaken, profound and fast…. Although each of the Tibetan philosophical schools feel and assert that their own philosophy is that of Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti and thus the philosophy of Prasangika, because of its very subtle nature the followers could not realise the main intention of their preceding learned scholar practitioners and have thus erred. Most of them have become like the philosophy of Hvashang Mahayana. By becoming so one will fall into nihilism and will become the cause for hell. Therefore, in Tibet, except Tsongkhapa’s philosophy, all others are mistaken. As such I can affirm that at present on this earth and beneath the sky it is only the refined gold, like Manjushri Tsongkhapa’s system which is alone totally faultless in every aspect, be it the philosophical view, the meditation or the conduct..While this wonderful philosophy is existent many unfortunately adhere strongly to inferior teachings. Many such people are there in Tibet as well, which is a clear indication of lack of merit.”

  170. “Therefore, in Tibet, except Tsongkhapa’s philosophy, all others are mistaken. As such I can affirm that at present on this earth and beneath the sky it is only the refined gold, like Manjushri Tsongkhapa’s system which is alone totally faultless in every aspect, be it the philosophical view, the meditation or the conduct..”

    In other words, all others apart from Pabongkha et al are WRONG

    Or perhaps

    these days the views of all Sakyas, Kagyus, Nyingmas and so on are erroneous. They are not even Svatantra or Cittamatra, let alone the view of Prasanga Madhyamaka – meditating only the nihilist view like tirthikas and Hashang. If one upholds the nihilist view, the result is nothing other than going to Avichi hell

    In other words,everyone except Pabongkha and his cronies is going to hell.

    Please explain why this is not sectarianism. And while youre at it, an explanation of why Gyatso totally contradicts the words of his own root gurus root guru would not go amiss. And no, nobody is expecting you to admit to political opportunism (like using the ‘religious freedom’ argument to curry favour in the battle to preserve worship of Tibet’s most sectarian deity, perhaps?)

    We await your ‘logical’ response, oh great debaters.Come on, Empty Mountains, Lineage Holder. Middle Way. or cant you handle a level playing field?

  171. I think you’ve demonstrated that it’s pointless to debate with you on this. You would never accept an alternative view because you’re clinging to your view with such strong emotion.

    Anyone who doesn’t practise the Madhyamika Prasangika view cannot ABANDON afflictive emotions. They can temporarily pacify them, yes, but they cannot abandon them. Je Pabongkhapa is right. Buddha himself said that the actions of living beings just result in more suffering, no matter how good their intentions are. Furthermore, there are no methods taught in Christianity or any religion other than Buddhism for improving the mind of love and so forth that would pacify these afflictive emotions. Sadly, non-Buddhists don’t have any opportunity to recognise the harmfulness of self-cherishing and abandon it. Non-Buddhists often develop an interest in Buddhist teachings because it helps them practice their beliefs more effectively which is good.

    Any view of emptiness that contradicts that of Tsongkhapa cannot lead to liberation or enlightenment because Tsongkhapa’s system is in accordance with Nagarjuna’s intention. Sorry to say this if you disagree but it’s simply the truth. However, I believe there are practitioners in all Buddhist traditions who hold these correct views, so all traditions have a correct path.

    I really think Buddhists should appreciate their own religion, see why it is superior to other belief systems and develop the wish to lead all beings to same experiences. This is not sectarianism but wisdom and compassion. At this time of suffering we don’t need the political correctness of the Dalai Lama (a politician seeking popularity and power) but superior discrimination and wisdom.

  172. Robert

    I agree that debates over Shugden get overly heated at times. However, I don’t think that in my last note on the subject of Pabongka I’ve been clinging to my view “with such strong emotion”.

    Pabongka essentially makes two claims:

    1. The Gelug view is superior to all non-Buddhist views as the latter do not lead to enlightenment.

    2. The Gelug view is superior to all non-Gelug Buddhist view as the latter do not lead to enlightenment.

    Your position with regard to (1) is clear. However, I don’t believe your position is entirely clear with regard to (2).

    You say

    I prostrate to Je Pabongkhapa, a true master of the Gelugpa tradition, unlike the Dalai Lama who’s on some ‘all paths are equal’ hippie trip.

    This rather suggests you agree with (2).

    However, in your most recent post you say

    Any view of emptiness that contradicts that of Tsongkhapa cannot lead to liberation or enlightenment because Tsongkhapa’s system is in accordance with Nagarjuna’s intention…I believe there are practitioners in all Buddhist traditions who hold these correct views, so all traditions have a correct path.

    This is clearly not Pabongka’s view and suggests you disagree with (2).

    So, can I ask you again: how do you square the circle?

  173. So when you have no answer, you use the ‘pointless to debate’ argument, oh great debaters!

    “Anyone who doesn’t practise the Madhyamika Prasangika view cannot ABANDON afflictive emotions.”

    So Arhats practicing Hinayana tenets haven’t abandoned afflictive emotions? All of the great masters of the Chittamatra schools were also deluded? Non-sectarian-yeah, right

    “There are no methods taught in Christianity or any religion other than Buddhism for improving the mind of love and so forth that would pacify these afflictive emotions.” (Er I thought you just said “They CAN temporarily pacify them,”??)

    So no other faiths teach, love, compassion, patient endurance?

    “Sadly, non-Buddhists don’t have any opportunity to recognise the harmfulness of self-cherishing ”

    Really? So no one else, other than ‘Buddhists’ can possibly see the pain that selfishness causes? How sad.Do you realise how bigotted and ridiculous you sound with your ‘learned responses’, clearly not based on life experience of any kind?

    “Sorry to say this if you disagree but it’s simply the truth.”
    Great logical argument: ‘What I say is right because its the truth, whether you agree or not, and if you dont, tough’

    “I really think Buddhists should appreciate their own religion, see why it is superior to other belief systems and develop the wish to lead all beings to same experiences. This is not sectarianism.”

    Can you hear yourself? Try swapping “Buddhists” for “Muslims” and see how that reads. Try comparing your ideas to ‘non-sectarian’ Islamists who desire that the whole world become a Muslim caliphate. What was it Thurman called you “The Taliban of Buddhism”? I think he has a point.

    “At this time of suffering we don’t need the political correctness of the Dalai Lama (a politician seeking popularity and power)” and of course, Kelsang Gyatso is seeking neither.

    Keep going man, that hole youre digging just keeps getting deeper.

  174. Gyatso states
    “Of course the Kagyupas as well as the Nyingmapas and the Sakyapas, have a complete path to enlightenment.”

    Numerous masters of thes traditions spoke of the limitations of Tzongkhapa’s philosphical system-I think that means they dont practice them?

    So, if Gyatso says they have a ‘complete path’ what are you talking about? Why do you contradict your holy gurs words?

    “At this time of suffering we don’t need the political correctness of Kelsang Gyatso (a politician seeking popularity and power) but superior discrimination and wisdom.” Who the cap fits…

  175. Adam: Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö (1893-1959) who put a stop to the dolgyal cult in the Sakya tradition once and for all wrote:

    “The sun that illuminates the doctrinal texts is Tsongkhapa”

    …but he goes on to caution practitioners:

    “Cause harmony to arise in the monastic community and discard verbal sectarianism. Do not cut the Dharma into divisions and sections. Do not cause inconsistencies in any of the teachings. Discard blasphemies against the dharma. Having understood that all aspects of the teachings, which are themselves as broad as the ocean, are present in a mind that has been tamed, the practice it. By always cultivating peace, discipline and relaxedness in one’s body, speech and mind one should attend to the knowledge so acquired and to care in one’s actions.
    In accordance with the dream of King Kriki * the eighteen divisions of the sravakas in India caused the teachings to fall into discord. On account of that they gradually declinded and were then spread to Tibet in the north. There the Sakya, Geluk, Kagyü and Nyingma schools were established by the devil of philosophical systems. The teachings were agitated by disputes and so became disturbed. As a result of partiality both one’s present and future lives are wasted and oneself and others brought to sin. As there is essentially no meaning in this at all one must give it up with certainty and guard the teachings of the Buddha which, on account of the fact that he attained to the stage that is without fear, cannot be destroyed by anyone from outside. As it is explained in the sutras, the teachings can only be destroyed from within, like a lion killed by the ravages of worms in its stomach.”

    *note: The dreams of King Kriki (Kriki Raja) were explained to him by the Buddha Kasyapa as a sign of evil things would befall the Dharma during the kalpa of Buddha Shakyamuni. In one of his ten dreams, the king had seen eighteen men fighting for a roll of cloth and each tearing a piece for himself. Yet despite this the roll remained miraculously intact. The Buddha Kasyapa explained the dream as indicating that Sakyamuni’s doctrine would split into eighteen schools (see below), each possesing the means of obtaining enlightenment; despite this division the path to Buddhahood would remain intact

  176. Your arguments are multifaceted in their flaws.Where is your response?Either quare the circle or admit to the fact that you are just mouthing standard NKT platitudes.You cant have it both ways,oh great debater.

  177. Robert

    “As a result of partiality both one’s present and future lives are wasted and oneself and others brought to sin. As there is essentially no meaning in this at all one must give it up with certainty and guard the teachings of the Buddha which, on account of the fact that he attained to the stage that is without fear, cannot be destroyed by anyone from outside. As it is explained in the sutras, the teachings can only be destroyed from within, like a lion killed by the ravages of worms in its stomach.”

    Each morning, I start my prayers with supplications to the masters of all four sects. You, on the other hand, reject all these as inferior. In what way does this make you fit to comment on what is and what is not a valid path?

  178. Everyone has the right to believe whatever they choose, but not to try to force their beliefs onto others. And not to try to make life misery for others who disagee with them.

    We should be able to politely agree to differ, and still agree to talk, meet, and cooperate in all other areas of life.

    But the Dalai Lama will not have this. He has insisted that people should pledge to have nothing to do with ‘those who rely upon Shugden’ implying that he believes them to be affected by some invisible evil contamination that will harm anyone who comes into contact with them.

    What utter nonsense! This man’s position is clearly unreasonable. No one with any sense or objectivity would be taken in by what he has said.

    You people need to take off your rose-tinted glasses and see this phoney Lama for who he really is – a deeply confused individual. Deserving of our compassion – certainly – but not deserving of our respect.

  179. SeekingClarity,

    I’m really not interested in inter-school wars. I’m simply saying that, without a correct view of emptiness that accords with the intention of Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti, there is no way to eliminate delusion from our minds. This is what Je Pabongkhapa is saying and he’s indisputably right. There are practitioners of both the Mahayana and Hinayana that possess this view, therefore there are beings who can attain liberation and enlightenment.

    I have no idea whether practitioners from all four schools of Tibetan Buddhism have a correct view of emptiness or not, but I know that Tsongkhapa does. There’s really no point in debating on it as it seems to upset people.

    Follow your own Teachers with faith and good results will come.

  180. He’s not an emanation of Avalokiteshvara. He’s a VERY NAUGHTY BOY!!!

    (To borrow a little from The Life of Brian)

  181. When ‘Buddhists’ start telling me what I need to do, it is usually a sign that they are children in the Dharma.

    The criticisms people have voiced here are criticisms of sectarianism. If sectarianism is what you believe in, why should it be tolerated. What is the result of tolerating the intolerant?

    Ad hominem attacks on the person of the Dalai Lama, a common feature of NKT/WSS/Chinese propaganda are not deserving of respect and, once again you poison everyones mind with statements like he is a ‘deeply confused individual’. I dont respect your views because they are totally disrespectful

    The Tibetans have saying: You can see a speck of dust on someone elses nose but you cant see a yak if its sat on your head-get yourself a mirror dude.

    How old are you? How long have you been practicing? How much experience do you have of the Buddhist traditions as opposed to the NKT? No need to answer; we already know.

    By the way, you havent answered ANY of the questions above. Wonder why?

  182. Yes. in fact, when the hypocrisy and contradictions of your arguments, those of Pabongka, and Kelsang Gyatso were pointed out and you were asked to address them, all that happened was you completely evaded responding and launched into attacks on the Dalai Lama and anyone who might appear to favour his views.

    Do answer the questions wont you, otherwise you are in danger of giving the impression of being totally vacuous, having nothing to support your arguments other than the ubiquitous ‘Geshe-la says…’

  183. Robert

    In the book, The Two Truths Debate, Sonam Thakchoe writes

    Both Tsongkhapa and Gormapa systematically formulated a complete Buddhist epistemological, ontological and soteriological agenda based on their understandings of Indian Madhayamika. Both rank the Prasangika Madhayamika as the most profound of all Buddhist philosophical schools, and most importantly, despite both claiming that their views are Prasangika Madhayamika, their views are philosophically and hermenutically distinct.

    So there are profund disputes over the Madhayamika Prasangika within Tibetan Buddhism. And interestinginly, the Gelug school was so opposed to Gorampa’s critique of Tsongkhapa that they banned his work for centuries.

    You say in your last post

    <blockquote<I have no idea whether practitioners from all four schools of Tibetan Buddhism have a correct view of emptiness or not, but I know that Tsongkhapa does. There’s really no point in debating on it as it seems to upset people.

    1. I’ve made it clear that this discussion doesn’t upset me so I was hoping you’d answer my previous question.

    2. Your position of the four Buddhist schools seems inconsistent. You started by saying

    I prostrate to Je Pabongkhapa, a true master of the Gelugpa tradition, unlike the Dalai Lama who’s on some ‘all paths are equal’ hippie trip.

    Thus, you seem to assert that non-Gelug schools are not equal to the Gelug. Then you shift to saying

    I believe there are practitioners in all Buddhist traditions who hold these correct views, so all traditions have a correct path.

    Then you shift again saying

    I have no idea whether practitioners from all four schools of Tibetan Buddhism have a correct view of emptiness or not.

    3. How do you “know” that Je Tsongkhapa has the correct view of the Madhayamika Prasangika and that, say, Gorampa does not? Do you mean that you “believe” that Je Tsongkhapa’s views are correct based on the words of Pabongka and Geshe Kelsang? And if you base you views on the belief that the words of the NKT lineage gurus are valid, how do you account for the (seeming) contradictions in their statements?

  184. Dear seen this?, JCB.

    You two just want an argument. Since you are incapable of even considering an alternative view, there’s simply no point. If you want to think your practice is better than mine because you’re non-sectarian, go ahead.

    Banging your head against a brick wall just hurts, dudes.

  185. Dear SeekingClarity,

    You seem to be a reasonable person so I will answer your questions:

    1. To my mind, it’s not ‘Gelug vs non-Gelug’, it’s ‘Madhyamika Prasangika vs non Madhyamika Prasangika. I cannot say for sure that the other three schools of Tibetan Buddhism have this correct view but I know that Tsongkhapa’s tradition does. I expect there are some practitioners who do have it as there are shravakas who have this view. Without it, liberation and enlightenment are impossible..

    2. My point about the Dalai Lama’s ‘all paths are equal’ hippie trip is in relation to his latest book where he seems to be claiming that all religions can be united because they practise compassion. While this is true, it’s a gross simplification because Buddhist view, meditation and action is superior to other traditions who do not have a path to liberation. In the name of harmony (and maybe getting some power over other religious traditions), the Dalai Lama is prepared to overlook these important differences which is a dumb oversimplification.

    2. I’ve extensively studied Je Tsongkhapa vs Gorampa, and to my mind, Gorampa’s view is full of logical holes and he nihilstically denies the value of conventional truth whereas there are no contradictions in Tsongkhapa’s view such that there is complete harmony between the conventional and the ultimate – they are mutually supportive, not contradictory as they are painted by Gorampa. It seems to me that Tsongkhapa’s view (which was received directly from Manjushri) is far more philosophically sophisticated and satisfyingly explanatory than Gorampa’s which is not a true Madhyamika view because he goes to the extreme of non-existence with respect to conventional truth by making it a creation of ignorance.

  186. Robert

    Thanks for the reply. I’d assumed that you were portraying the Dalai Lama as on a “hippie trip” for holding that all Buddhist paths are equal. However, you’ve clarified that you regard him as on a hippie trip for holding Buddhist and non-Buddhist paths are equal.

    I think (but am by no means sure) that Gorampa’s view on the two truths is taught widely within Sakya. Now, personally, I have no trouble with you favouring Tsongkhapa’s view over Gorampa’s (or others favouring Gorampa’s over Tsongkhapa’s). But I begin to have problems with the contention – and I take it to be Pabongka’s contention – that those schools/individuals that take a different view of Madhayamika Prasangika to Tsongkhapa are destined for Avichi Hell.

    I also wonder at your certainty that all other religions don’t have the means to achieve what Buddhists refer to as liberation and enlightenment. I’m wondering what your certainty is based on? On a study as extensive as your study of the views of Tsongkhapa and Gorampa?

    Can I also ask whether you see any contradiction between the remarks of Pabongka and Geshe Kelsang that I posted earlier and post again below?

    Pabonkga

    these days the views of all Sakyas, Kagyus, Nyingmas and so on are erroneous. They are not even Svatantra or Cittamatra, let alone the view of Prasanga Madhyamaka – meditating only the nihilist view like tirthikas and Hashang. If one upholds the nihilist view, the result is nothing other than going to Avichi hell.

    Geshe Kelsang

    Of course the Kagyupas as well as the Nyingmapas and the Sakyapas, have a complete path to enlightenment

    Or should Geshe Kelsang’s remark be interpreted as follows:

    Of course the Kagyupas (that hold the same view as Tsongkhapa) as well as the Nyingmapas (that hold the same view as Tsongkhapa) and the Sakyapas (that hold the same view as Tsongkhapa) have a complete path to enlightenment (whilst the Kagyupas, Nyingmapas and Sakyapas that hold a different view are bound for Avichi Hell).

    One last thought. Gorampa’s views on the two truths were an elaboration of those of Sakya Pandita. Presumably, given that Sakya Pandita held erroneous views he end up in Avichi Hell. But in that case, how can he possibly be part of the enlightened reincarnation lineage of Dorje Shguden?

  187. Apologies for the formatting faux pas!

  188. “Without it, liberation and enlightenment are impossible.” Because Pabongkha says. Open your mind a little and rely on something more than the testimony of others.

    “the Dalai Lama is prepared to overlook these important differences which is a dumb oversimplification”

    “Dumb”? to focus on differences leads to conflict, to focus on common ground is the way of peace. Nobody is saying the different religions are the same, only that there is common ground.

    Your arguments (based on ‘extensive study’ How many decades?) against Gorampa are Gorampas arguments against Tzongkhapa’s view. Have you realised either? Only then are you fit to comment. Otherwise, it is appropriate to practice tolerance of all views instead of claiming the intellectual superiority of your own and the inferiority of others. Such an attitude betrays immaturity and arrogance.

    A

  189. Do answer the questions wont you, otherwise you are in danger of giving the impression of being totally vacuous, having nothing to support your arguments other than t”he ubiquitous ‘Geshe-la says…’”

    JCB:

    I am not interested in answering the particular questions that yourself and others have posed. I concede that yourself and Seeking Clarity appear to have a better knowledge of some aspects of Tibetan Buddhist history than me – well done!

    As far as these questions are concerned I regard these matters as subjects about which it is possible to have legitimate disagreement.

    Personally I think that Pabongkhapa is being misconstrued. He has a right to believe that the Gelugpa teachings are superior to those of other Buddhist traditions.

    The Muslim house-mates with whom I have lived over the past year believe that their faith is superior to all other faiths. However, they still have respect for other faiths even though they regard them as mistaken.

    We need to be capable of making a distinction between what a person believes and the behaviour that they engage in as a result of this belief. IF Pabongkhapa’s belief led him to believe that he had the right to persecute all non-Gelugpa’s then I would condemn that utterly, but I would still not condemn his belief – only his persecutory behaviour.

    IF a person believes in the unity of all faiths, and the value of taking teachings and empowerments from all schools of Tibetan Buddhism, then that is fine, but if they insist on trying to impose their ecclecticism upon everyone else, and in persecuting or ostracising those who choose to adhere to only one tradition instead, then that it completely unacceptable and reprehensible.

    I do not criticise such a person for holding a belief in the unity of all faiths and/or the value of taking teachings and empowerments from all schools of Tibetan Buddhism, but only their persecutory behaviour.

    Does this make sense?

    I think it should be very clear.

    Surely there it is possible for us to reach at least some points of agreement?

  190. I’d like to offer a different slant on the differences between Tsongkhapa and Gorampa to that offered by Robert. I’m no expert on this stuff so am referring back to an exchange that took place on the comments to a blog post on Dorje Shugden at the Tricycle blog. The protaganists here are “Lineageholder”, an NKT monk with similar views to Robert, and Dorje. Here goes…

    In post 1211 Lineageholder writes

    If it were true that Gorampa’s view is nihilist, and if it is true that all the other schools follow Gorampa’s view rather than Tsongkhapa, then Pabongkha’s view would not be wrong.

    In post 1214, Dorje replies

    Even though other traditions may view Je Tsongkhapa’s views as slightly off, they do not hold that followers of the Ganden tradition will go to hell. Most Tibetans would agree that Je Tsongkhapa achieved a high level of realisation, even complete enlightenment, but they just disagree with his presentation of Madhyamaka.

    Indeed, there are many Buddhist views that are either subtley eternalistic (shentong) or nihilistic, but none of them are said to lead the practitioners to hell, as they are all teachings of the Buddha. Vaibashika, Sautrantika and Cittamatra do not present the highest views, but they are not thought to lead to the lower realms.

    There are many differences of opinon between different traditions, but to take these differences of opinon to the extreme of disparaging other traditions, saying their followers will go to hell and converting their monasteries is extreme sectarianism

    And in post 1219, Dorje adds

    The subtle nihilism and eternalism found in the various presentations of Madhyamaka are often used to correct subtle opposites found in other presentations. Positing anything at all, existence or non-existence, leads to a subtle error, such is the nature of language. Nagarjuna makes this clear when he says, “If I had a position, I would be at fault, since I alone have no position, I alone am without fault.”

    Gorampa’s position is actually closest to Nagarjuna, but Tsongkhapa makes the conventional more comprehensible and approachable. Ultimately, there is no cause and effect, as things do not arise from themselves, from another, from both or without a cause. But at the level of those in samsara it can be said that if one thing happens, another thing results. So Tsongkhapa’s take on conventional reality comes from the point of view of unenlightened beings, and Gorampa presents it more from the view point of the enlightened. This isn’t contradictory, it’s just from a different point of view.

    In post 1262, Lineageholder writes

    Je Tsongkhapa’s teachings on emptiness, which is the Madhyamika-Prasangika view, perfectly embody the ultimate intention of Buddha, Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Aryadeva, Buddhapalita and all the other great ‘Middle Way’ masters of India. It is the practice of this view that leads to liberation and enlightenment. Without this view, there is no liberation and enlightenment. Anyone who rejects Je Rinpoche’s explanation is going to fall into one of the two extremes. I used the example of Gorampa, who also claimed to be a Madhyamika Prasangika, but due to his failure to understand conventional truths correctly, fell into the extreme of non-existence by denying that they could be objects of valid minds.

    In post 1265, Dorje replies

    This is the most bizarre claim about madhyamaka I’ve ever read. Are you saying to be a prasangika you have to accept that conventional objects are established by valid minds? Do you understand what prasangika means? and why it is supposedly different from svatantika?

    The problem Gelugpas have is that other traditions followed Nagarjuna pretty much to the letter. Je Tsongkhapa’s position was new and different. It’s not that every other tradition follow Gorampa, they follow Nagarjuna, Aryadeva, Buddhapalita and Chandrakirti. The new kid on the block was Je Tsongkhapa and his innovation. To hold that Je Tsongkhapa’s position alone leads to enlightenment would mean that nobody before Je Tsongkhapa became enlightened, as nobody had explained it that way before.

    Of course, this is nonsense. But could we accept that Je Rinpoche was wrong? Well, no. Most lamas, even of other traditions, agree that Je Rinpoche was, if not enlightened, then certainly close. So, his position leads to high realisation at least and the other position does as well. There really is no problem because if you actually look at it, the two positions are so remarkably similar that you would have to be at a very high level of realisation for the difference to actually make a difference.

    The difference is that Tsongkhapa gives conventional appearances a little too much reality and ultimate truth becomes a mere negation. The others (mainstream prasangika madhyamikas) may deny conventional existence a little too much. This is because conventional appearances do not really exist, (nor not exist, both or neither) as Nagarjuna says again and again.

    The only real position to hold is no position, as Nagarjuna says ‘because I hold no position, I alone am without fault.’ This is all well and good, but if you want to teach people about karma and so on, even though it doesn’t really exist, you have to give them some conventional truths to work on. This was the argument Bhavaviveka had with Buddhapalita and it’s been going on ever since. Reality is beyond concepts, but how can you explain that using concepts? There are different solutions to this but to say that one of these solutions leads to hell is sectarian in the extreme.

    So there you have it…whatever it is!!

  191. Adam

    You say

    Personally I think that Pabongkhapa is being misconstrued. He has a right to believe that the Gelugpa teachings are superior to those of other Buddhist traditions.

    Don’t disagree that Pabongka has a right to his beliefs. And I don’t think many would have a problem if Pabongka had left it at believing Gelug teachings superior to others. I think it’s when he says that Gelug is superior and all the teachings of all other schools will take you to (Avichi) hell in a handcart that hackles tend to get raised.

    I think the debate between Lineageholder and Dorje is very interesting in that respect.

  192. So Adam, youre a student. How quaint-not quite out of nappies and already qualified to tell everyone how to think! And an expert on Buddhism to boot!

    It strikes me this debate has come full sircle-it started off as a discussion about the legitimacy of banning books one doesnt agree with. At first, the NKT ban of Beesley’s book “Cuckoo in the Peacock Palace”

    Now we are into lots of jolly old debate about the merits of Gorampa’s works. how fortunate that we have the great good fortune to compare such views. Particularly in light of the fact that they were banned by the Lhasa Gelug administration for centuries and when they did begin to re-emerge in Kham, Phabongka sought the help of the Kuomintang to supress them once again (Saint in Seattle)
    My how things have changed and how civilised we have all become.

    Thank goodness the bigotted and aggressive sectarianism practiced by Pabongkha and his forebears is no longer acceptable in our civilised society. After all, as Kelsang Gyatso said, everyone has the right to freedom of speech and this is not feudal Tibet.

    So how come the NKT banned the Beesley book?
    I guess maybe now you might understand why people dont trust you people-saying one thing and doing the opposite has always been a sign of hipocrisy and narrow mindedness, wouldnt you agree?

  193. According to the “PLA Daily”, China’s People’s Liberation Army is 2.3 millions strong at this moment.

    Tibetan government in exile military personnel: 0 and holding
    no cops, neither.

    There’s no mansions to be had by supporting TGIE,
    The NKT/WSS Sxxxxxn power trip cult betrayed Tibet for Mammon.
    ‘The Great Deception’ can stand as a testament to the ‘Nasty Kedampas’,
    Mr. Beesley’s work is not in vain, in fact its snowballing.

  194. Youre right about the snowballing. I speak to a lot of people involved in Buddhism in the UK and ALL of them are talking about it. Everyone, without exception, is identifying it as a clear example of feudal thinking, an action driven by the desire to maintain the NKT’s reputation so they dont lose status or money.

    The ban seems to have confirmed in many peoples minds that the NKT are importing the feudalism which led to the downfall of Tibet. I have already heard of people leaving the NKT because of the publication, anfd they havent even seen it. it looks like they will live to regret their actions on this one.

  195. Dear David,

    You never live to regret what you do out of concern for the Dharma and all living beings, far from it, it’s an object of rejoicing. Telling the truth to protect the tradition of Je Tsongkhapa from political interference is never an object of regret.

    If people are unable to discriminate between the pure actions of the WSS and the impure actions of the Dalai Lama and as a result lose faith in their Teacher and the practice of Dorje Shugden, I feel really sorry for them, but that’s no reason to stand up (rightly) for what you believe in.

  196. “the pure actions of the WSS”

    like WSS padding its online petition with countless false Tibetan names?
    I believe the word you looking for is fraud, pure fraud.

  197. and rJe Tsong Khapa absolutely did not do dolgyal practice, its a recent invention.

  198. “You never live to regret what you do out of concern for the Dharma and all living beings, far from it, it’s an object of rejoicing.”

    Try telling that to the innumerable damaged people who have left the NKT and deeply regret their involvement in the whole political charade.

    I would advise people to stop discriminating between ‘pure’ and ‘impure’. As it says in the Heart Sutra, ‘neither impure nor free from impurity’ (blah blah blah relative truth, blah blah blah debate-get a life.)

    I guess what is really screwing Dharma here in the West is people becoming members of organizations, instead of remembering that each of us is alone with the teaching. As Jamgon Kongtrul observed. any sense of belonging to any tradition becomes an obstacle. All there is is you and the Dharma-organizations were never part of the Buddha’s teaching and beleiving you are part of one is destroying Buddhism

  199. Still no answers on the contradictory statements from Pabongka and Kelsang Gyatso. Still no explanation of why, when the Dalai Lama speaks on the equality of the traditions, it is politically correct opportunism while, when Kelsang Gyatso does the same, its suddenly totally acceptable. And still no explanation of Kelsang Gyatso’s statement that we dont live in feudal Tibet and therefore have freedom of speech, while in liberal England, the book ‘ A Cuckoo in the Peacock Palace’ is stamped on by libel threats and shameful manipulation of the country’s archaic, freedom limiting libel laws.

    It seems, when the contradictory nature of the NKT is exposed repeatedly, rather than answer. their supporters just launch into personal attacks on anyone that moves. The obvious reason the NKT do not address these massive, hypocritical contradictions is because thats exactly what they are: massive, hypocritical contradictions.

    When I have dirt all over my face, I wash it off. When the NKT have it all over theres, they either deny it exists or shut their eyes and claim it isnt there. How many massive flaws in their arguments must be pointed out before they start to behave like decent human beings and accept the truth-there are lies, damned lies and the gospel according to Kelsang Gyatso. How many more people must suffer mental illness and suffering before the NKT realize they have created a cult that is destroying Buddhism in the West? It took the Tibetans 1200 years to screw Buddhism up-the NKT have done it in less than 20.

  200. maybe when he dies his cult will die with him, after they’ve all finished squabbling about the real estate of course

  201. Except the guy is a frickin’ zombie, harder to put down than Rasputin

  202. Although cult scribe “His Holiness” Zemey (Zhemey) Tulku snuffed it in Darjeeling the very morning he was to bless Sxxxxxx rigs-lnga, (five forms of the demon) idols that he had commissioned. Fine protector he turned out to be.
    The Chinese Communist party has enthroned his “soul boy” as they call it. The rather creepy video is on YouTube, a wonderful piece of social/spiritual engineering.

  203. “Still no answers on the contradictory statements from Pabongka and Kelsang Gyatso. Still no explanation of why, when the Dalai Lama speaks on the equality of the traditions, it is politically correct opportunism while, when Kelsang Gyatso does the same, its suddenly totally acceptable. And still no explanation of Kelsang Gyatso’s statement that we dont live in feudal Tibet and therefore have freedom of speech, while in liberal England, the book ‘ A Cuckoo in the Peacock Palace’ is stamped on by libel threats and shameful manipulation of the country’s archaic, freedom limiting libel laws.”

    As I explained I do think that the Dalai Lama has the right to promote ecclecticism if he wishes. Just not to try to impose his views upon other, or to make absurd and unfounded criticisms of those who disagree with them – e.g. accusing Buddhists who rely upon Dorje Shugden of being murderers, arsonists, and Chinese consipitors to boot.

    Geshe Kelsang states that he believes that the ecclectic approach is a mistake. However, this is only an expression of his view and people are free to agree or disagree. Also, anyone with an interest in other traditions is welcome to attend NKT Centres and Festivals if they wish – it is not a problem.

    Honestly, we are a gentle and friendly bunch for the most part. You guys should visit your nearest NKT Centre some time and see the truth behind all of the hype – we are nothing like as frightening as you seem to think! So perhaps you will be a bit disappointed!

    As for Beesley’s book, in the first instance I am not personally answerable for the actions of the NKT in this regard, and had no say in the decision to threaten him with legal action.

    In the second instance it could be said that Beesley still had the option of going ahead with publication, and so I am not sure if this is a ban on free speech as such, although I accept that this is a technical point.

    In think the problem arises mainly from the fact that people often attribute undue significance to something that appears in print. If everyone had the sense to read Beesley’s book with intelligent scepticism and an appropriate sense of perspective then I would say that this was fair enough.

    However, not everyone is capable of this and some people will just accept what they hear without questioning it. Perhaps it is to try to protect such people that it was considered desirable to try to prevent the publication of the book.

    A point of view which none of you seem to have considered is the following:

    How does the behaviour of the NKT in this instance compare to the behaviour of NOT threatening him with legal action prior to publication, but rather in allowing him to publish and then taking him to court on charges of libel?

    Would that be more or less reprehensible?

    Or are both courses of action equally reprehensible in your minds?

  204. “Would that be more or less reprehensible?”
    Both are reprehensible, don’t forget a statement is not libel if it is factual.

    When it comes to the triple murders in Dharamsala, the Himachel Pradesh police still have the Shugden Society hired killers as most wanted fugitives. Interpol is also still interested. Murder is like that. Why not put your legal team on that case if you want to command respect. Yor current course is backfiring badly. Not that it makes much difference, if NKT shut all its shops down tomorrow, it would make no difference to Buddhism whatsoever.

  205. I think you guys should provide evidence to prove that the Dalai Lama is not ‘the saffron robed muslim’ , a false lama who was chosen because of the worldly concerns of the Reting Rinpoche and who is the destroyer of Buddhism through the Lama Policy of mixing Dharma and politics.

    It’s very clear from ‘Ocean of Truth Explained’ that he was a muslim boy chosen by the Reting Rinpoche for political reasons, and he received a Buddhist education from his kind teachers Trijang Rinpoche and Ling Rinpoche. How did he repay them? By trying to destroy their spiritual tradition. The Dalai Lama has stolen their teachings and is using them to promote himself as a Buddhist leader in ‘rock star style’, mixing the teachings with politics and using them to make himself famous throughout the world. Witness his recent antics in NY when at the end of his teaching and he’s gone ‘off stage’, Richard Gere announces that ‘His Holiness’ will teach for a few more minutes to wild applause! No genuine Lama would act like this, it’s disgraceful and undignified. Buddha Shakyamuni didn’t do encores like some cheap rock group; teaching the Dharma is not a ‘gig’. This shows how much It’s all about ‘His Holiness’ and not at all about the teaching.

    When the Dalai Lama teaches, he never even mentions the lineage and the kind Teachers from whom he received it. Why? Because it’s all about him. The only person the Dalai Lama is interested in is himself – promoting his own power and reputation. He doesn’t care at all for the Tibetan people and he isn’t interested in Tibetan autonomy or independence, just maintaining his luxurious lifestyle. Even though millions of dollars have been collected for this cause, where has it gone? The Dalai Lama has achieved nothing. Why is this? Because he’s not genuine – he’s not following the Dharma but following the eight worldly concerns and so everything he does, apart from self promotion, is doomed to failure.

    You say that NKT practitioners say “Geshe-la says” as their justification for their beliefs but in reality, your only reason for believing that Dorje Shugden is a spirit is “the Dalai Lama says”. You follow the Dalai Lama out of blind faith and because the WSS has revealed that the Dalai Lama is fake and you mistakenly believe the NKT and WSS to be the same organization, out of anger you wish to destroy the reputation of Kadampa practitioners by portraying them as brainwashed cult members. Since your only valid reason for your views are “the Dalai Lama says” this is rather hypocritical of you. Everything the Dalai Lama accuses others of – spirit worship, dictatorship and so forth – he is doing himself. It’s the same with you.

  206. I am not a follower of the Dalai Lama

  207. Sarah

    As you well know, the current Dalai Lama was not the first person to raise objections to Dorje Shugden.

    Even if every allegation you make about the Dalai Lama is true, as a matter of simple logic, it is simply not relevant to determining the nature of Dorje Shugden. For example, how can the validity or otherwise of the Dorje Shugden reincarnation lineage possibly be altered by events in the 20/21st century?

    * Gorampa elaborated the views of Sakya Pandita.

    * The Gelug school supressed Gorampa’s teachings.

    *Sakya Pandita is said to be part of Dorje Shugden’s reincarnation lineage

    So please tell me why you think Sakya Pandita would arise as the protector of a school that supressed his own views?

    And please note that the answer to this question has nothing to do with the present Dalai Lama’s actions!

  208. Goodness, what a lot of poisonous vitiriol!
    “I think you guys should provide evidence to prove that the Dalai Lama is not ‘the saffron robed muslim’”

    Even if the Dalai Lama was born a Muslim (actually, if you check up, youll find the village chieftain was a Muslim), is there a problem? Jesus was born a Jew; does that mean he was a ‘fake’ Christian? You seem to bew suggesting that, if one is born into one faith,one cannot practice another in later life. Bang goes the whole of Western Buddhism then.

    Also,exactly what is wrong with being a Muslim? If I were a Muslim, I think i would find it quite insulting that you were utilising the name of my faith as an insult? Or are you of the same opinion as NKT lineage guru Pabongka who suggests that, along with Christianity, Islam is the ‘worst faith in the world’? If you are of that opinion, perhaps you could discuss it at one of the numerous multi-faith bodies the NKT has crept onto (as representatives of Buddhism)-I feel sure there would be lots of lively discussion if your stance were exposed. I’m almost tempted to write to the Muslim Council of Great Britain to invite them to discuss the issue with you; you know, how come you use the term Muslim as an insult? How come your most vimportant progenitor claims Islam is the worst faith in the world and practice of it leads straight to hell?

    As for “accusing Buddhists who rely upon Dorje Shugden of being murderers, arsonists” I think youll find it was Interpol who issued the Red Notice to the Chinese Government asking that they extradite two well known Shugden activists based in Chatreng ofr the murder of Lobsang Gyatso and his students. Arson was committed by Pabongkha’s followers in the 1930s according to Beyer and others, long before the birth of the present Dalai Lama.

    The remaining comments in your mail are based on blind acceptance of the NKT/WSS/Beijing party line rahter than being based on your own research. Still, how could it be otherwise; you clearly knew nothing of the Red Notice nor have you even considered the implications of insulting Islam. Why would you have the intelligence to investigate for yourself in the light of such evidence?

    Have you, for instance, done any research into Reting Rinpoche other than reading NKT/WSS/Chinese propaganda? Did you know that ecclectic Reting’s monastery, the seat of thew Kadam tradition, was practically destroyed and hundreds of his monks murdered and tortured on Taktra’s instructions (Taktra was, along with Trijang, one of Pabongka’s closest disciples) Well, did you? If so, what sources did you rely on? Mao’s Little Red Book?

    Most risible is the repeated mixing of Dharma validate to make your highly politcised point that the Dalai Lama is ‘mixing Dharma with politics’ Well, I guess someone who is ordained as a Buddhist monk but who is also the political leader of the Tibetan people could well be accused of such. However, a monk who organizes demonstrations where his followers stand alongside Chinese demonstrators, shouting slogans designed to undermine the Dalai Lama politically and religiously, is NOT acting politically. What a fool Ive been.

    Youre quite right; ‘The Dalai Lama’ does say Shugden is a spirit: the Fifth, the Thirteenth, the Fourteenth, plus several Ganden Tripas, the head of the Sakyas, Kagyus and Nyingmas worldwide and indeed, large numbers of ex NKT followers.Fools, every last one of them?

    I remember the story of the family who went to see their Girl Guide daughter marching one day, only to find that while everyone else was marching ‘left, right, left,right’ their daughter was marching ‘right,left,right,left’ ‘Look’ saysthe father, ‘Theyre all out of step except our Coleen’

  209. Sarah D

    Can you confirm that you’ve actually read Ocean of Truth Explained rather than simply repeated why you’ve read that it says.

    And can you advise where to obtain a copy. I can find no link to any copy on the web, and the endnotes in A Great Deception give no indication of where a copy can be obtained.

    I’m sure you’ll agree that it’s difficult to put too much credence in a publication that is not publicly available.

  210. PS The Dalai Lama does not generally wear ‘saffron robes’ either. It us usually the Theravadins who are endowed with that particular epithet.
    Still, wearing robes doesnt make a Buddhist monk , does it? Anyomore than say, calling oneself a monk but not having an ordination ceremony conducted according to the Vinaya. Still, at least one can think one is a monk or nun and convince oneself that one is holy. Even while one has ones subordinates perform sexual acts in the name of ‘tantra’.

  211. There’s nothing wrong with being a muslim, so why doesn’t the Dalai Lama ever say “I was born as a muslim”? What’s he got to hide?

    In his article for the New York Times, “many faiths, one truth”, the Dalai Lama says:

    When I was a boy in Tibet, I felt that my own Buddhist religion must be the best — and that other faiths were somehow inferior. Now I see how naïve I was, and how dangerous the extremes of religious intolerance can be today.

    “When he was a boy in Tibet” he wasn’t a Buddhist but a muslim. Why doesn’t he say that? Because it doesn’t go with the legend. It doesn’t make sense. It would make people ask “well, why would the 13th Dalai Lama, a Buddhist, choose to incarnate into a muslim family?” That’s a very good question and indicates the deception that was pulled by the Reting Rinpoche and that the whole Buddhist world is now suffering from as a result of.

    Later in the article he says:

    Let me tell you about the Islam I know. Tibet has had an Islamic community for around 400 years, although my richest contacts with Islam have been in India, which has the world’s second-largest Muslim population.

    Again, no admission of association with the muslim community. Doesn’t this seem a bit strange?

    There is, indeed ‘A Great Deception’ going on. As the book says, there is no one who is more deceptive in this world today than the Dalai Lama.

  212. SeekingClarity,

    You say:

    * Gorampa elaborated the views of Sakya Pandita.
    * The Gelug school supressed Gorampa’s teachings.
    *Sakya Pandita is said to be part of Dorje Shugden’s reincarnation lineage
    So please tell me why you think Sakya Pandita would arise as the protector of a school that supressed his own views?

    Buddha teach in accordance with the karma of living beings and are not attached to views. Their intention is always to lead living beings to the highest views. Manjushri can appear and teach the Chittamatrin view, even though it’s not the highest view, because that is the karma of his students at that time and his intention is to lead them to a higher view. That’s why Buddha Shakyamuni taught alternative views of emptiness – those of the Vaibhashika, Sautrantika, Chittamatrin and Prasangika schools. Each of these is a stepping stone for progression to the highest view of the Madhyamika Prasangika.

    Manjushri will do whatever living beings need and he possesses the skilful means necessary to accomplish this. Therefore, I see no contradiction with him appearing as Sakya Pandita and later as Gelugpa Masters who taught an alternative view and (allegedly) suppressed the earlier view. I imagine that there are Sakyas who possess the Madhyamika Prasangika view just as there are Kagyupas and Nyingmapas who also possess it

  213. Please provide evidence for your assertion, other than NKT/WSS/Beijing publications.

    It might come as a surprise to you but most of the allegations here against kelsang Gyatso et al can be supported by evidence from secondary sources (Goldstein, Beyer etc) Your vitriolic attacks on the other hand are simply ad hominem diatribes straight from Xinhua, the Chinese national news agency.

    This makes it impossible to respond-You say the Dalai Lama is a Muslim (one of the most ridiculous statements Ive ever heard and clearly not the case-such a claim only increases others perception of you as some kind of fanatic)) and I ask for evidence. Your response is ‘because it says so in a book that isnt even available’.Or you make glib observations like “there is no one who is more deceptive in this world today than the Dalai Lama”-you obviously have never worked with kids!

    Your arguments confirm the opinion of many that Shugden devotees become ‘possessed by the wish to argue illogically, though they often claim their arguments are logical, and forcefully opose anyone who disqagrees with them-very Buddhist.

    Ever tried meditation? Its a far more powerful method for controlling ones own mind than political diatribe. Oh, I’d forgotten; your arguments are expounded to transform the minds of others, not your own. Isnt Western Buddhism novel!

  214. More familiar rhetoric

    From The Times March 24, 2008

    China accuses Dalai Lama of being a terrorist
    Jane Macartney in Beijing

    Far from heeding international calls for dialogue with the Dalai Lama, China has accused Tibet’s exiled god-king of colluding with Muslim terrorists to destabilise the country before the Olympic Games.

    State-run newspapers have issued prominent leading articles that are part of a campaign to portray the Dalai Lama as the mastermind of the deadly riots that have rippled through Tibet and ethnic Tibetan communities.

    In Lhasa, the Tibetan capital, yesterday local TV issued the No 7 list of those most wanted in connection with the riots on March 10 in which Chinese officials say 22 people were killed, including a baby boy burnt to death in a garage and one paramilitary police officer.

    The latest list included six women and one monk and brought to 45 the number of people the security forces were seeking. The police sent out text messages to all mobile phone users in Lhasa urging those involved to surrender and exhorting others to turn in rioters in return for a reward.

    China’s Communist rulers have presented the violence as a plot supported by only a minority of Tibetans. The People’s Daily said that the Dalai Lama had never abandoned violence after fleeing China in 1959 after a failed revolt against Beijing. “The Dalai Lama is scheming to take the Beijing Olympics hostage to force the Chinese Government to make concessions to Tibetan independence.”

    It also accused Tibet’s spiritual leader of planning attacks with the aid of violent Uighur separatist groups seeking an independent East Turkestan for their largely Muslim people in the northwestern Xinjiang region of China. It said: “The Dalai clique has also strengthened collusion with East Turkestan terror organisations and planned terror activities in Tibet.”

    The Dalai Lama described the accusations by China as baseless. He said yesterday: “I always support the Olympics should . . . take place in Beijing . . . so that more than one billion human beings, that means Chinese, they feel proud of it.”

  215. A Muslim and a terrorist-you can just tell, its written all over his face Why doesnt he just admit he is the anti Christ and a close friend of Hitler, Charles Manson and the Ayatollah Komeini-are you people all blind?

  216. I get it now, the reason you talk like you do is because you are STARK RAVING MAD! (Are you perchance one of the NKTs ‘experienced meditation teachers’?) Try Prozac.

  217. And before you ask, thats an inferential cognition based on reasoning.

  218. Sarah D

    Thanks for your reply.

    Sakyas are clear that Virupa did not incarnate as Sakya Pandita and are equally clear that Sakya Pandita did not incarnate as Buton. So if you accept the Shugden reincarnation lineage set out by Geshe Kelsang in Heart Jewel, then you are implicitly claiming that Sakyas have been entirely wrong about two of their most precious lamas for several hundred years. Is this your claim?

    You see no contradiction in the Sakya’s most precious lama Sakya Pandita arising as a protector of a school that supresses the Sakya view of emptiness – which, let’s be clear, isn’t Vaibhashika, Sautrantika or Chittamatrin but is Madhayamika Prasangika. In this case, I think you’d be in a minority.

    And presumably, then, you see no contradiction in Sakya Pandita arising as a protector who actually harms Gelugpas who engage with his (Sakya Pandita’s) view of emptiness. For despite what Geshe Kelsang says about Dorje Shugden, Zemey, Trijang, Pabongka and Tagpo are all crystal clear that this is what Dorje Shugden does.

    You say

    I imagine that there are Sakyas who possess the Madhyamika Prasangika view just as there are Kagyupas and Nyingmapas who also possess it.

    Then it would appear that you imagine differently to Pabongka, who states

    these days the views of all Sakyas, Kagyus, Nyingmas and so on are erroneous. They are not even Svatantra or Cittamatra, let alone the view of Prasanga Madhyamaka – meditating only the nihilist view like tirthikas and Hashang. If one upholds the nihilist view, the result is nothing other than going to Avichi hell.(my emphasis).

    So I guess the obvious question to ask at this point is whether you disagree with your NKT lineage guru, Pabongka?

    Given that Gorampa’s views are widely held by present day Sakyas, the logical conclusion would seem to be that Pabongka held that Gorampa was bound for Avichi Hell. And given that Gorampa followed Sakya Pandita, presumably Pabongka must have held the same view about Sakya Pandita. But if this is so, how can Sakya Pandita be part of the enlightened Dorje Shugden reincarnation lineage?

    And, finally, a couple of questions from a previous post to you. Can you confirm that you’ve actually read Ocean of Truth Explained rather than simply repeating what others have said that it says. And can you advise where to obtain a copy. I can find no link to any copy on the web, and the endnotes in A Great Deception give no indication of where a copy can be obtained.

  219. Please add your faves to WSS/NKT Top Ten Bullshit List:
    here’s a start–

    1. Its just coincidence the hundreds of people with the same Tibetan surnames, supposedly residing in India, signed WSS Petition within minutes of each other. There are also some other dubious signatories like “Aaaaan Ignorant Cultistgoon” Nice handle, bud.
    WSS studio in London actually withdrew the online petition in favour of a downloadable paper form for a short while, but have since reverted to the ridiculously compromised electronic one again

    2. Several million of people worldwide worship the demon, no proof whatsoever to justify this claim–but they’re out there.

    3. Dolgyal practice is spreading like wildfire in China. Hmmm, why did Tibetans in TAR and other regions destroy the demon’s idols at great personal risk. Monks from Gangchen’s gompa fled the country rather than be force converted by “The Italian Stallion” Gangchen

    4. What sex scandals?
    5. WSS and NKT are seperate entities, oh puleeese.
    6.. Okay help me out here, I don’t want to have all the fun…

  220. 7. The NKT property empire has NOT been paid for by the UK taxpayer via housing benefit, Social Security, tax exemption because of charitable status

    8. Kelsang Gyatso disagrees with the words of Zimey’s Yellow Book, while at the same time the work was commissioned by his root guru, Trijang, to commit the words and sentiments of his own root guru, Pabongka.

    9.Neil Elliott did not step down from his position as Kelsangs successor because he had been screwing women dressed as nuns left, right and centre (front and back?) Oh, and PS Steve Wass’s shagging antics while he was second ‘monk’ in command, did not lead to any of his ‘consorts’ experiencing bouts of mental illness

    10 The NKts ordination is based on a Kadampa geshes tradition (who all followed the Vinaya) plus the content pf the Perfectio of Wisdom Sutras (though no reference to it can be found there)

    11 There is no relationship between the NKT and the PRC, despite the fact that the NKT collude directly, via the WSS’s eastern wing, the DSDCRS in Delhi, with Chinese government officials in India, Nepal and Tibet

    12 NKT proselytes do not consider themselves spiritually superior to all Buddhist traditions which are, in turn, all spiritually degenerate and hold philosophically inferior views

    13 It is impossible to find anyone who has experience mental illness or attempted suicide after their involvement with the organization (despite the fact that i have evidence to the contrary)

    14 The NKT are perfectly fit to represent the whole of Western Buddhism via their involvement with the NBO, multi faith bodies and chapliancy organizations-Wouldnt you love a Shugden devotee to lead you through the death process
    Keep it up-I didnt even have to think that much to list those

  221. 15 Kelsang Gyatso does not take advantage of innocent people with a genuine interest in Buddhism, drawing them in with promises of happiness, a better rebirth, liberation and enlightenment, only for them to find that they have become embroiled in two wars,one Kelsang Gyatso’s personal ego battle to preserve the propitiation of a visious and evil deity known to have killed and driven innumerable people mad in the past, and the other the Chinese propaganda war to undermine the authority of the Dalai Lama in the minds of the Tibetan people so they can then lay claim sovereignty over that land via their cynical manipulation of the Panchen Lama selection process.

    16 Dorje Shugden is a loving and compassionate figure , similar to (quote) ‘St Francis of Assisi’ and his practice is a ‘simple practice for developing love and compassion, like the Lords prayer’ (Thank you Kelsang Pema) That will be the bit in the Lords prayer where he is depicted standing in an ocean of blood devouring his enemies heart, no doubt. Yes, I well remember St Francis’ reputation for grinding his enemies bones to dust-hallowed be his name.

  222. You forgot the freshly skinned tigers and leopards and the stench of boiling fat and human flesh, real advanced spiritual shit this NKT is….gonna take over the world you know!

  223. If life was a Monoply game, yes, they are winning. NKT now have three hotels in Europe and a new chateau in France. But as we all know, games are also lost. I do think its cute they all have the name Kelsang. Really cute in their little red togas with their little shaved heads. Some even have tattoos and watch naughty videos online. Adorable–not like the thugees of India.

  224. Ah yes Todmorden-a couple of attempted suicides recently amongst ex-followers from there I believe. Porn, sex and madness-Buddhism in the West OK?

  225. Yes, but out of darkness comes wonder. Even though the aftermath of Todmorden may be littered with the bodies of the innocent, the NKT were able to take the profits from the building’s sale, the mortgage of which was paid for overwhelmingly by State benefits and housing benefit, and pour the money into a number of overseas projects. Great karma for the UK taxpayer.

    A quote from an NKT ‘nun’ in Waterhouse’s paper Buddhism in Bath explains the benefits to the UK taxpayer of funding their growth with money that could pay for things like, a casualty department at the local hospital for instance

    ‘…the government is creating an awful lot of merit training teachers of Dharma who are going throughout the world bringing peace and really deep happiness … that’s why Britain has been such an excellent place to establish Dharma centres. Because we have this motivation, we are not stealing even though we are not actively seeking work.’

    ‘The people who are signing on are not stealing or deceiving anyone. Geshe-la says if things change we will have to find another solution … If I am drawing dole to have an easy life to shelter from the world then this is poor motivation and I will be losing a lot of merit. From my point of view it is very good that the situation allows Buddhism to flourish in this country and that will help it flourish in the world … if Buddhism doesn’t flourish in this country and in this world there will be nothing to save it … if you have a narrow view you can say “bad scroungers taking money off the dole” but then you are not looking at the broader ramifications and the broader results that could come from this.’

    Now I understand. How narrow minded we all are.

  226. Another off-putting video from a branch of the dolgyal cult, this time Khadampas (with an ‘h’)
    Han maidens in chubas, phony Buddha relics, cardboard replica of the Potala, all staged apparently in some sort of conference, this is totally tacky cultural appropriation. The western cultists see these wack jobs as a bridgehead into converting China to dolgyal demon worship.
    This video makes me ill.

  227. Having lived with Tibetans for many years, i can confirm that the people in this video are all Han Chinese (kind of obvious from the language on the video) I noticed someone dressed as a Theravadin monk in there too, what he’s doing there, I don’t know. It looks more like the opening of a bloody restaurant than any ritual Ive ever seen. I love the choreographed monks sat on the floor near the end.
    I do not read Chinese but if ther lortrayed as Khadampas it confirms my suspicion that the Chinese and the NKT are intent on establishing Dolgyal/NKT ‘Buddhism’ as the State Buddhism of China-Didnt i hear when Tharpa got the go ahead to translate into Chinese, everyone was told to shut up

  228. stuffed yaks ?
    oh dear….

  229. Stuffed nuns?
    Even worse.

  230. heard the one about the nkt nun who got stuffed…?

  231. The grass is real…real astro turf.

    The ‘Khadampa’ group donates a lot of money to Ganden Shar, one of two new mulit-million dollar monasteries the cult has built in Karnataka State. Very lucrative to be repressed it seems, I wish someone would take away my “human rights” if that is the result!
    One wonders how much foreign remittance is pocketed by the Sxxxxxx Society in Delhi, getting funds from misguided western dharma enthusiasts and the Chinese to boot. They still send out appeals to the cult’s website saying we can’t pay our rent and so forth, I’ll wager the kids of Sxxxxxx Society officers are going to posh public schools.

  232. it would be interesting to take a peek at the accounts of all involved,including the NKT, to see where the money goes, I wonder, for instance, since it is now clear that the NKT IS the WSS, how many of the £$ etc went towards the cost of demos? Certainly there is evidence from at least one source that centre funds paid for the transport to and from -if thats the tip of the iceberg the NKT is a metaphorical Titanic (Titan-angry god) and us the Olympians?

  233. Where can we find out about ‘Khadampas’?

  234. Where have all the loonies gone? I wonder if theyve realised every time they respond, loads of proof and evidence of hypocrisy comes spewing out? They certainly dont seem to be able to come up with anything meaningful in response to the claims here and instead just come back with personal attacks. Either theyve run out of ideas or theyve been told to shut up. Maybe Beesleys book isnt the only thing they censor. Is Big Brother watching Big Brother too?

  235. Kunga:
    Rinpoche, very recently, the “Chinese Gelugpa” associations which have actively opposed the Dalai Lama over practice of the controversial spirit, shugden, has changed their name to the Khadampa Buddhist Association. What advice could you give us on this intriguing development and will you be able to advise us on what is the “real” or actual Kadampa tradition ??

    Khensur Rinpoche:
    The Kadampa tradition is “founded” by Lama Atisha, who is one of the early pioneers who brought the holy Dharma into Tibet. Much later, Je Tsongkhapa studied and practised very widely on teachings by Lama Atisha. As a result, the tradition “founded” by Je Tsongkhapa is known in Tibet as the New Kadampa tradition while Lama Atisha’s teachings are known as the Old Kadampa tradition.

    Kunga:
    The Khadampa Buddhist Association is headed by a bearded Taiwanese man who claimed himself to be recorngised by his teacher, “Serkong Tritul”, ( this is not the authentic Serkong Yangsi Rinpoches officially recognised by mainstream Tibetan Buddhists worl-wide ) as the reincarnation of Chenrezig of Guan Yin. His disciples, to differentiate themselves from all other Buddhists monks and nuns in the world, wore their robes with a strip of dark green cloth striped vertically downwards from the left chest. Is there any sound historical or scriptural references to this development ??

    Khensur Rinpoche:
    There has never been any historical precedent or valid scriptural basis for wearing these green-striped robes. In fact, I am concerned that their lineage is not authentic because “Serkong Tritul”, head of this association, has flipped-flopped by declaring himself to be the reincarnation of this, and then, that, different Ganden Tripas in the past. In addition, he has switched his claim before to having been the reincarnation of a great yogi practitioner “Apong”. It appears that there has been some contradictions in his own claims !!

    Let me recount, in short, how reincarnation became institutionalised in Tibet. The first recognised reincarnated master of Tibet is the first Gyalwa Karmapa. Subsequently, the recognition of reincarnation of past masters ( called “tulkus” ) spread to the other traditions. In the Gelugpa lineage, it is mainly the Dalai Lama or the Ganden Tripas who will recognise Tulkus. In the Sakya lineage, the Sakya Trizin will be mainly responsible while for the Nyingma lineage, great masters such as the Mindroling Trichen, the late Dudjom Rinpoche or Palyul Penor Rinpoche will be the authority. In the Drikung Kagyu, the Drukpa Kagyu and other lineages, the respective great masters will fulfill the task and they each have their respective, stringent and definitely valid systems of recognising incarnations of great masters from their lineage.

    Here, “Serkong Tritul” is not recognised by any of the senior lineage-holders of any of the schools. His Holiness the Dalai Lama has never recognised him as a Tulku and neither has any of the heads of the other lineages. This association claims to represent the Kadampa lineage, but all the old Kadampa masters have passed away, so these old, holy Kadampa masters could not have recognised them as Kadampas or as tulkus of the Kadampa lineage.

    The formal inheritors of the Kadampa lineage are the Gelugpas. None of the Gelugpa lineage-holders alive today – not His Holiness or the Ganden Tripa – recognised him as a tulku. So, merely claiming himself to be a tulku does not and could not, at all, factually make him one.

    They have been requested to offer proofs of their recognition as Kadampas. “Serkong Tritul” has also been questioned many times to provide proof of who recognised him as the real tulku of Serkong Tritul and to date, they could not offer any answers or proof.

    Kunga:
    “Serkong Tritul”, himself, although un-recognised by any to have the authority to recognise or enthrone anyone as Tulku, has himself recognised a Taiwanese man to be an emanation of Chenrezig and a high tulku. They have aggressively marketed themselves as who they claimed themselves to be and many Buddhists in the general public are not aware that Tulkus need to be strongly, clearly verified via the traditional, established systems.

    Khensur Rinpoche:
    The public need to investigate carefully and thoroughly. They MUST investigate. Then, they can draw a reasonable, accurate conclusion themselves. Otherwise, practising what is taught by the unqualified teacher/s will have disastrous consequences.

    These days, both in the west and in Taiwan, Singapore or other Asian countries, I have heard of people who self-market themselves as reincarnation of truly great lineage masters such as Je Tsongkhapa or even great, enlightened Bodhisattvas like Maitreya !! Please, of course, there is no need for us, on our side, to believe any such claims.

    If these claims are real, they need to be backed by official recognitions by the respective leaders of the different Tibetan Buddhist lineages. Otherwise, we need not believe in them.

    Kunga:
    The Khadampa Buddhist Association is organising a huge exhibition of alleged relics of the Buddha’s saliva, bones, brains or blood although no verified source has been provided by them. It appears that they are trying to gloss over this sudden surfacing of thousands of “relics” by side-stepping the issue of the need for historical or scriptural references.
    The Taiwanese “tulku”, the alleged incarnation of Chenrezig, has also, in front of television audiences, held an alleged hair of Lord Buddha between his fingers, with the hair apparently twitching like a worm from side to side in his hands. When he dumped the hair in a mug of liquid, the hair apparently “swam” of its own efforts, to much consternation and gasps of the innocent public !!

    Khensur Rinpoche:
    In the Buddhist scriptures, which are the reliable references for Buddhists, we have no records of the Buddha having left any relics of the blood, brain or saliva.

    I, myself, ( as a fully-ordained monk or Bhikshu and Buddhist teacher of 75 years of age ) have never heard, read or learnt of Lord Buddha having left relics of the blood, brain or saliva.

    Hence, it is necessary that we know the source of these alleged “relics”, before we could accept the claims or before we could conclude that these alleged “relics” are from the Buddha.

    When Lord Buddha manifested Nirvana at Kushinagara, it is recorded in the scriptures that the bone relics of Lord Buddha were devotedly collected by the gods to be enshrined and offered devoted services in their heavens. Venerable Ananda and Venerable Kashyapa requested the gods to leave some relics in our human realm as a source of merit and blessings for our world. As a result, some of the Buddha’s bone relics remained with us and subsequently, it is recorded, too, that Nagarjuna enshrined some precious relics in treasure casket at Bodhigaya.

    However, the claims by this association, of the sudden but un-accounted for revelation of thousands of blood, brain or saliva relics, could not be referenced from any of the holy scriptures, history, tradition or in the Tibetan circle.

    Kunga:
    This association, before it re-named itself as the “Kadhampa Buddhist Association”, was known as the “Chinese Gelugpa” associations and they had been very staunch practitioners of the controversial spirit called shugden. They strongly, fanatically almost, opposed the Dalai Lama’s ban on practice of shugden.

  236. http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=553.0
    gives their ridiculous response. One is that, although the Vinaya does not mention green stripes on robes, it does not prohibit them and they are therefore acceptable. The Vinaya does not place restrictions on false noses or codpieces either. maybe theyll start wearing them next

    remember, first anonymouse.org, enter the above URL, then surf anonymously-Big Brother IS watching!

  237. In-line with His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s clear and consistent stand with regard to worship of the evil spirit, dolgyal-shugden, the relevant department and officers from His Holiness’s Private Office have expressed their deep concerns about the so-named “The Buddha and His Principal Disciples’ Relics Grand Cultural World Exhibition”, from 9 to 17 December 2006, at the Singapore Expo, hosted by the the “Gelugpa Buddhist Association Singapore” —

    His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s Private Office will like to remind all students of the Dharma, especially students of the Dharma relying upon His Holiness, that this “Gelugpa Buddhist Association Singapore” actively opposes His Holiness’s advice and teachings —

    This organization strongly advocates worship of the unenlightened evil spirit, dolgyal-shugden —

    His Holiness’s Private Office will like to remind students of the Dharma that relying upon a worldly spirit, such as dolgyal-shugden, contradicts Lord Buddha’s own advice against taking refuge in samsaric spirits —

    Hence, any student participating in events related to practice of this worldly spirit effectively “breaks” one’s Refuge Vows and this student effectively becomes a Non-Buddhist, negating the source and root of all Dharmic practices —

    It is critical that all sincere Buddhists, be it an individual or Dharma centres, make the above clearly known to all via every means possible, be it SMS, email or others —

    _______________________________________________________________________________________________________

    From CAS of T_A Chenrezig

    bb & all friends @ CAS of Thousand-Arm Chenrezig will like to clarify too that this organization, although branding itself as a Gelugpa centre, is not recognized as such by HH the Dalai Lama nor HH the Ganden Trisur Rinpoche ( the Official Head Emeritus of the Gelugpa Tradition ). Therefore, labelling of itself as a “Gelugpa” centre is inaccurate and misleading.

    In addition, although almost every Tibetan Buddhist organizations in Singapore is abiding-by His Holiness’s compassionate guidance and advice, many Buddhists from the Chinese Mahayana and even the Theravada traditions may not be aware of the highly problematic background ( because of their taking refuge in and practice of the evil spirit — dulgyal-shugden ) of this programme.

    Hence, we will like to, with the best of motivation from our side, urge all students of the holy Dharma, to inform all other unknowing Buddhists, that, according to the Buddha’s holy Teachings as preserved in every tradition and lineage as well as His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s advice, taking refuge in wordly-spirit, in this context, this programme’s uncompromising stand of practising and taking refuge in dulgyal-shugden, effectively contravenes one’s Refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.

    Very importantly, the organization has failed to clarify or justify, to senior Buddhist leaders world-wide, the authenticity of the source of their claimed “relics”, most of which, presented as plasticine-looking coloured balls. The organization too claimed many of their “relics” as being originated from Lord Buddha’s blood, bones, saliva and other bodily parts. This has triggered widespread shock, distress, questions and enquiries from the Buddhist world. ( which to date the organization is unable to justify or explain )

    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    The Malaysian Buddhist Coordination Committee
    Do Not Support “The Relics Expo of the Buddha& His Chief Disciples”

    The Malaysian Buddhist Coordination Committee has called for a meeting on 15 October, 2006 to discuss on The Relics Expo of the Buddha and His Chief Disciples organised by the Kuala Lumpur Gelugpa Buddhist Association (Malaysia).** The meeting has unanimously adopted that the Malaysian Buddhist Coordination Committee (MBCC) do not support The Relics Expo of the Buddha and His Chief Disciples?

    [ ** Notes by bb @ CAS of T_A Chenrezig: This organization did not obtain the blessings, recognition or permission of HH the Dalai Lama and / or HH the 100th Ganden Trisur Rinpoche -- Official Head Emeritus of the Gelugpa Tradition as a Buddhist center of the Gelugpa tradition. HH the Dalai Lama and HH the 100th Ganden Trisur Rinpoche, advise against and forbid certain prime practices of this organization, specifically, the worship of a worldly spirit: dolgyal-shugden. This organization is, therefore, not an authentic Gelugpa center in spite of its self-branding as one. ]

    The Buddha relics are the remains of Buddha and it is highly respected among the Buddhists. As The Buddha relic are so precious that any discovery of Buddha relics would get worldly attention and it must be verified by the archaeologist repeatedly. When the huge amount of the relics appears in the eyes of public out of a sudden, we are reserved on its genuineness. Besides, we have more doubts with the various names given to the different type of relics.

    Buddhism is a Dharma centric religion. The Buddha once said Those who see the Dharma, see me. The Buddha does not even consider those who seen His real figure considered seen him, not to mention His relics. Thus, the Malaysian Buddhist Coordination Committee appeals to the Buddhist disciples and the public not to support such event nor to attend the relics expo. Besides, the public is being reminded that the MBCC is in disagreement with any party who circulate the Buddha relics commercially either through sales or donation.

    The Malaysian Buddhist Coordination Committee consists of Malaysian Buddhist Association (MBA), Young Buddhist Association of Malaysia (YBAM), Buddhist Missionary Society Malaysia, Sasana Abhiwurdhi Wardhana Society (Sasana), Persatuan Penganut Agama Buddha Fo Guang Malaysian, Buddhist Tzu-Chi Merit Society and Vajrayana Buddhist Council Malaysia (VBCM).

    [ Additional notes from bb @ CAS of T_A Chenrezig:; The Singapore branch of this organization will be holding a similar exhibition at the Singapore Expo in December 2006. CAS of T_A Chenrezig does not support this event. ]

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  238. I didn’t really wish to divert attention from the topic of the NKT cult, I think the shenanigans of “His Holiness the 18th Dromtug Rinpoche Losang Chokye Pelden, Reincarnation of Dharmaraja of Kadampa Lineage” only underlines that standards are being defended by those who have bona fide lineages–otherwise sheer numbers (this particular “His Holiness” claims 280,000 lay disciples and 5000′ lamas’) and huge amounts money will ruin Tibetan Buddhism. It seems there is a western front and an eastern front, like WW1, and propaganda is employed by NKT/WSS as major weapon belching out continuously like BP’s oil spill.

  239. While I certainly agree that the ‘Kadhampa Buddhist Association’ is most certainly a part of Beijings orchestrated effort to undermine the authority of the Dalai Lama and lay claim to Tibetan sovereignty. I believe the label ‘Eastern Front’ can equally ascribed to the Eastern Branch of the NKT/WSS (the same entity according to the Charity Commission), the Dorje Shugden Devotees Charitable and Religious Society (DSDCRS) in Delhi. The DSDCRS, who countersign letters with the NKT/WSS and deliver messages on their behalf, have established links to Beijing via their frequent meetings with Chinese Government officials, and Gangchen and Nga Lama Kundeling. I believe they also have strong connectins with Serkong ‘Tritul’ who, like Kundeling is self appointed and not officially recognised. The Eastern Front label is therefore one that was already taken, long before the Chinese came up with the idea of the Kadhampa Association. That they have chosen the same Kadampa epithet though is most telling and ertainly confirms in the minds of many that Kelsang Gyatso’s long term goal is his own peculiar brand of ‘Buddhist’ world domination. Beijing and Gyatso’s goals serve each parties aims very well. That the Chinese can throw such huge amounts of money into events such as the plasticine ‘relics’ tour means the ‘Kadampas’/’Chinese Gelug’/’Black Gelug’ will reap the benefits of significant publicity designed solely to dupe the ignorant into the beleif that they have found a true manifestation of the ancient Buddhist Path. All this despite the fact that neither the NKT nor the ‘Kadhampa’ Chinese faction have existed for more than 20 years. In lands where the populus are ignorant of Buddhist history, it is easy to pass off any old nonsense as the Buddha’s teaching

  240. Ultimately, the game will be to install their own Dalai lama candidate, a ruse China has been preparing for for years, with their ‘golden urn’ lottery system, practice with replacing the Panchen Lama and so forth.

    The following is the text of New Tulku Regulations in China, I know its longwinded but very telling about the degree to which the Communist Party of China intends to meddle in reincarnation and lama politics.

    State Religious Affairs Bureau Order
    Order No. Five

    These “Management measures for the reincarnation of living Buddhas in Tibetan Buddhism” were passed at the administrative affairs conference of the State Administration of Religious Affairs on July 13, 2007, and will be implemented on September 1, 2007.
    Bureau Director, Ye Xiaowen
    July 18, 2007

    Article 1: These measures have been formulated in accordance with the “Regulations on Religious Affairs” in order to guarantee citizens’ freedom of religious belief, to respect Tibetan Buddhism’s practice of inheriting living Buddha positions, and to regulate the management of living Buddha reincarnation affairs.

    Article 2: Reincarnating living Buddhas should respect and protect the principles of the unification of the state, protecting the unity of the minorities, protecting religious concord and social harmony, and protecting the normal order of Tibetan Buddhism.

    Reincarnating living Buddhas should respect the religious rituals and historically established systems of Tibetan Buddhism, but may not re-establish feudal privileges which have already been abolished.

    Reincarnating living Buddhas shall not be interfered with or be under the dominion of any foreign organization or individual.

    Article 3: Reincarnating living Buddhas should have the following conditions:
    (1) A majority of local religious believers and the monastery management organization must request the reincarnation;
    (2) The inheritance lineage should be real and have continued to the present day;
    (3) The monastery applying for the living Buddha reincarnation must be the monastery at which the living Buddha monk is registered, it must be registered as a Tibetan Buddhist place of religious activity, and it must have the ability to train and raise living Buddhas.

    Article 4: Applicants to be reincarnating living Buddhas who have any of the following conditions may not be reincarnated:
    (1) Reincarnations which are not regulated by the religious doctrine of Tibetan Buddhism;
    (2) Those in city-level people’s governments and above with delineated districts, which ordered no reincarnations to be permitted.

    Article 5: Reincarnating living Buddhas should carry out application and approval procedures. The application and approval procedure is: the management organization at the monastery applying for the living Buddha reincarnation where the monk is registered, or the local Buddhist Association, should submit applications for reincarnations to the local religious affairs departments at the level of people’s government above county-level; once the people’s government above county-level has made suggestions, the people’s government religious affairs department reports upwards, and examination and approval shall be made by the provincial or autonomous regional people’s government religious affairs department. Living Buddha reincarnations who have a relatively large impact shall be reported to the provincial or autonomous regional people’s government for approval; those with a great impact shall be reported to the State Administration for Religious Affairs for approval; those with a particularly great impact shall be reported to the State Council for approval.

    Verification and authorization of the living Buddha application should solicit the opinions of the corresponding Buddhist Association.

    Article 6: When there is debate over the size of a living Buddha’s impact, the China Buddhist Association shall officiate, and report to the State Administration of Religious Affairs to be put on the record.

    Article 7: Once an application for a living Buddha’s reincarnation has received approval, depending on the size of the living Buddha’s impact, the corresponding Buddhist Association shall establish a reincarnation guidance team; the management organization at the monastery where the living Buddha is registered, or the corresponding Buddhist Association, shall establish a search team to look for the reincarnate soul child, and search affairs shall be carried out under the leadership of the guidance team.

    The reincarnate soul child shall be recognized by the provincial or autonomous regional Buddhist Association or the China Buddhist Association in accordance with religious rituals and historically established systems.

    No group or individual may without authorization carry out any activities related to searching for or recognizing reincarnating living Buddha soul children.

    Article 8: Living Buddhas which have historically been recognized by drawing lots from the golden urn shall have their reincarnating soul children recognized by drawing lots from the golden urn.
    Requests not to use drawing lots from the golden urn shall be reported by the provincial or autonomous regional people’s government religious affairs departments to the State Administration of Religious Affairs for approval; cases with a particularly large impact shall be reported to the State Council for approval.

    Article 9: Once a reincarnating living Buddha soul child has been recognized, it shall be reported the provincial or autonomous regional people’s government religious affairs department for approval; those with a great impact shall be reported to the State Administration for Religious Affairs for approval; those with a particularly great impact shall be reported to the State Council for approval.

    Reincarnating living Buddhas who have been approved by the provincial or autonomous regional people’s government religious affairs departments or by the autonomous regional people’s government shall be reported to the State Administration of Religious Affairs to be put on record.

    Article 10: When the reincarnating living Buddha is installed, a representative of the approving authority shall read out the documents of approval, and the corresponding Buddhist Association shall issue a living Buddha permit.

    Living Buddha permits shall uniformly be issued by the China Buddhist Association and reported to the State Administration of Religious Affairs to be put on record.

    Article 11: Persons and units who are responsible for being in contravention of these measures and who without authority carry out living Buddha reincarnation affairs, shall be dealt administrative sanction by the people’s government religious affairs departments in accordance with stipulations in the “Regulations on Religious Affairs”; when a crime has been constituted, criminal responsibility shall be pursued.

    Article 12: When the reincarnating living Buddha has been installed the management organization at the monastery where he is registered shall formulate a training plan, recommend a scripture teacher, and submit the plan to the local Buddhist Association, which shall report upward to the provincial or autonomous regional people’s government religious affairs department for approval.

    Article 13: Provinces and autonomous regions which are involved in affairs of reincarnating living Buddhas may formulate and implement detailed measures in accordance these measures, and report them to the State Administration of Religious Affairs to be put on record.

    Article 14: These measures shall be implemented from September 1, 2007.

  241. “These measures have been formulated in accordance with the “Regulations on Religious Affairs” in order to guarantee citizens’ freedom of religious belief,”

    Yes, it seems the Chinese have become so obsessed with the religious freedom of Tibetans that they have started pumping huge amounts of money into building Shguden temples across Tibet, while simultaneously destroying Guru Rinpoche statues because they are ‘detrimental to the cause of national unity’?

    Didnt Pabongka’s disciples run amok in Kham in the 30s destroying Guru Rinpoche images as well. What a coincidence……..or is it? It strikes me that the Chinese Gelug is much more than ‘coincidentally’ reminiscent of Pabonkga’s fanatical army. In truth, they are the direct continuation of that perverse strain from within the noble Gelug, just as the NKT are. The New ‘Kadhampa’ tradition, Chinese puppets in the anti Dalai Lama propaganda war. Like the oracle said, Shugden intends to deliver Tibet into the hands of the Chinese. In return, he will be worshipped throughout Tibet and China. Even when your a gyalpo, it really is all about money.

  242. “Article 2: Reincarnating living Buddhas should respect and protect the principles of the unification of the state, protecting the unity of the minorities, protecting religious concord and social harmony, and protecting the normal order of Tibetan Buddhism.”

    “the normal order of Tibetan Buddhism.” funny isnt it? The ‘normal order’ of Tibetan Buddhism. I wonder, since it was not ‘the norm’ for Kagyus and Nyingmas to ropitiate Shugden, and since the Sakyas had abandoned the practice before the most recent Chinese incursion, and since the 13th Dalai lama had gone to great lengths to eradicate the practice in the Gelug, does that mean that ‘the normal order of Tibetan Buddhism’ this Chinese law attempts to maintain will be one that does not feature Shugden? If so, how come theres a manga style Shugden statue perched above the head of the Panchen Zuma (‘False Panchen’) in his official inauguration photo? Again, since the normal order in Tibet was, for the majority, to demonstrate respect towards Guru Padmasambhava, how come they are destroying his images? Doesnt this seem to indicate that while the Chinese claim to be preserving the normal order, they are actually manufacturing a new order, their own version which very definitely includes Shugden worship and which is identical in nature to the Buddhism of the NKT?

  243. Article 5
    incarnations “with a particularly great impact shall be reported to the State Council for approval.”
    In short, if the tulku is a significant one, the State Council (ie the men right at the top) decide whether or not the incarnation is valid. This must be the reason for the arrest and disappearance of Gedhun Choekyi Nyima

    Gedhun Choekyi Nyima (born April 25, 1989) is the eleventh Panchen Lama as interpreted by most Tibetan Buddhists.He was born in Lhari County, Tibet. On May 14, 1995, Gedhun Choekyi Nyima was named the 11th Panchen Lama by the 14th Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso. After he was named Panchen Lama, Chinese authorities arrested Gedhun Choekyi Nyima and removed his family from Tibet. He has not been seen since May 17, 1995 The son of two Communist Party members, Gyancain Norbu was later named as Panchen Lama by the secular People’s Republic of China.

    Thank goodness for these new laws-at least now truth can prevail-or at least, the official version of truth

  244. The level of censorship in China is obviously far greater than in counties like the UK, where people are still allowed to freely voice critical opinions without fear of censorship-unless they are critical of the NKT and publish books called ‘A Cuckoo in the Peacock Palace: The Decline of Tradition in 21st Century Western Buddhism and the Rise of the New Kadampa Tradition’ in which case, archaic “feudal” (Kelsang Gyatso quote) principles still apply. Thank goodness for democracy too!

  245. History, with rose-tinted hindsight

    For full article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/views/a_point_of_view/

    According to a newspaper report last week, the Russian authorities have recently gathered together a group of academics to draw up a school textbook that would present an approved version of the complex and controversial events that make up Russian history.

    Taking a rosy view of the past
    The aim is to play down the deplorable excesses of the Communist regime: the show trials, the purges, the gulags, the abuses of human rights and the denial of individual freedom.

    Instead, the intention is to stress the positive contribution and the heroic achievements of the Russian people in defeating Hitler, and to build a new national identity on the basis of this selective and sanitised national narrative.

    As one official explained, “we understand that school is a unique social institution that forms all citizens”; which means it is essential they should be taught history, especially the right kind of history. “We need a united society,” the apparatchik goes on, and to achieve that end, “we need a united textbook”.

    This isn’t the first time such an enterprise has been undertaken in Russia since the Bolshevik Revolution. Indeed, an earlier leader who had exactly the same idea is one of the people who must be causing this recent gathering of academics the greatest difficulties.
    For in 1934, it was Stalin himself who convened an earlier meeting of historians to discuss the very same issue, namely the teaching of history in Russian schools. He disapproved of the conventional class-based accounts then available, which were strongly influenced by Marxist doctrines, and which traced the development of Russia from feudalism to capitalism and beyond.

    “These textbooks,” Stalin thundered, “aren’t good for anything. It’s all epochs and no facts, no events, no people, no concrete information.”
    History, he concluded somewhat enigmatically, “must be history” – by which, in this case, he meant a cavalcade of national heroes, whose doings might appeal more broadly to the Russian people than the arid abstractions of class analysis and social structure.

    As such, Stalin’s earlier enterprise in national history writing sounds rather similar to what’s happening now. Yet in any country which aspires to a measure of academic freedom, and it is to be hoped that such is the case in Russia today, it’s very difficult to produce an agreed account of the national past.

  246. When I read wisdom moon’s (a NKT devotee) post above

    English libel laws protect those who need protecting. Please don’t mistake being able to publish a book full of rumours and internet gossip for free speech! Q: Where does free
    speech end and libel begin? A: When what’s being said is not the truth and it damages the reputation of particular persons or an organization.

    From Wikipedia:
    ….

    The reason why the Dalai Lama didn’t sue over ‘A Great Deception’ is because every word is referenced to third party publications and is true! You can’t sue if someone publishes the verifiable true about a particular issue. The Dalai Lama is guilty as charged…”

    it is really an eye opener how far the ‘brainwashing’ in the NKT can lead one away from the facts.

    First of all:
    The Dalai Lama has not being found guilty. The India Court said

    Justice S. Muralidhar dismissed the writ petition and application on the grounds that the allegations of violence and harassment were ‘vague averments’ and that the raised issues ‘do not partake of any public law character and therefore are not justiciable in proceedings under Article 226 of the Constitution.’

    Citing the ‘absence of any specific instances of any such attacks’ on Dorjee Shugden practitioners, the Court noted the counter affidavit submitted by the respondents, referring to ‘an understanding reached whereby it was left to the monks to decide whether they would want to be associated with the practices of Dorjee Shugden.’

    Closing the doors on the possibility of similar complaints in the future, Justice Muralidhar concluded that the ‘matters of religion and the differences among groups concerning propitiation of religion, cannot be adjudicated upon by a High Court in exercise of its writ jurisdiction.’

    2. There is no evidence from any reliable source that the wrong Dalai Lama was chosen (as the “Great Deception” and other WSS propaganda publications claim), such a claim is even against what Trijang Rinpoche said, Kelsang’s own root Guru. The book “Great Deception” is indeed a great deception because it exploits academic sources to spin the facts according to the imagination of the NKT leadership. Rewriting of history is a well recognized tool of New Religious Movements which NKT apply as well as other cults do.

    3. To make it not too long: The only reason why the Dalai Lama or any body else do not sue NKT or Kelsang is that they can—unlike NKT—bear that there are different opinions about them, even if it is untrue or defamation. It is a sign of cult leaders to threaten to sue ex-members or critics because they are full of themselves, they think they are godlike or Buddhalike. Because Kelsang Gyatso is a cult leader (the Third Buddha of our time) and NKT is a cult they threaten forums, academics and individuals to sue them.
    Because the Dalai Lama is not a cult leader but a relaxed and open minded person, it is no problem for him if he is slandered, he just will not take any lawyer to defend himself. He is also used to be defamed by China’s leadership and press and other hostile human beings. He takes it with ease and humour, because—unlike cult leaders—he has no exaggerated feeling of self-importance as cult leaders have.

    Hence what the Dalai Lama says about the Western Shugden Society expresses his qualities: “I am extremely happy that they can enjoy freedom of expression.” No lawsuit threat, no lawyer, only peace ;-)

  247. Just to let you know:
    I uploaded the letters NKT sent to Gary Beesley and his publisher as well as NKT’s legal threat to the NBO, the Network of Buddhist Organisations:

    http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2010/07/03/new-kadampa-tradition-threatened-to-sue-nbo-too/

    Note that the 4 PDFs are spread in two posts but both include a link to each other so you will find them easily.

    Freedom of expression, yes, but not for people concerned about the NKT and their behaviour ;-)

  248. forwarded from Tricycle blog:

    http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2010/07/01/withdrawal-of-a-book-about-new-kadampa-tradition-and-dorje-shugden/

    I received the following letter with the request to post it on this blog.

    Dear xxxxxx

    Thank you so much for your kind letter and expression of concern for my family and myself. I must say, the last few months have been trying and the knowledge that others are praying for our well being certainly does help lighten the load considerably.

    As to why I found it necessary to withdraw the book, believe me, it was not an easy decision, particularly after the significant amount of time, research and funds I put into the book. ‘Cuckoo’ was three years in the writing, researching and legal scrutiny, and it was not very easy to abandon the project after having learned so much about the history of the deity, and the nature of the NKT.

    My principle reasons for withdrawing the book were financial and, more importantly, the effects the impending publication began to have on my wife.I will explain these after outlining the financial constraints of the situation.

    I was somewhat surprised at the widespread attempts across the web to suggest that the book had been withdrawn for the reason that it contained libelous untruths. I thought the letter I posted on the web via Dialogue Ireland WordPress made it quite clear that the reason I had withdrawn the book was because, despite the fact that all the information in the book was evidenced and already in the public domain, I came to the conclusion that I could not match the legal costs of a libel case, in particular because the NKT have, in the past chosen Schillings, amongst the UKs most costly and libel law firms, a partnership with a reputation in legal circles of unremitting ruthlessness, to act on their behalf.

    As you know, England itself has a notorious reputation in international legal circles because of the huge imbalances in its archaic libel laws. These imbalances facilitate the issue of Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation,(SLAPPs) lawsuits served to intimidate and silence opponents by burdening them with the excessive costs of legal defence so that they withdraw any criticism or opposition. This was the background to the famous Mclibel case in 1994 where two individuals, who could not match the legal might of McDonalds were found guilty of libeling the huge multi-national in a leaflet they published.

    In the Mclibel case, it took nearly ten years for the European Court of Human Rights to overturn the ruling on the basis of the fact the couple had been denied their freedom of expression under the European Convention on Human Rights. I do not have the time or funds to engage in such a lengthy and expensive legal battle. Nor, as a Buddhist, do I feel that engagement in such embittered wars of words is befitting of my faith.

    The content of the legal threat letters, which I have attached for your own perusal, do however throw up some rather interesting issues; I’ll leave you to read the letters yourself and make your own observations on some of the startling contradictions contained therein.

    The second, more sinister reason for the withdrawal of the book was, as I said, the effects that began to manifest through my wife.

    About two days after it became public knowledge that ‘A Cuckoo in the Peacock Palace’ was to be published, she began to bleed heavily. At first, we thought this might simply be a period but after day five of continuous heavy blood flow, I began to become more than a little concerned.

    The concern increased when, on the morning of day six she awoke to tell me she had had the strangest dream: ” I dreamt I was being strangled by a bearded demonic figure” she told me. “I managed to struggle free and ran out of the house, where I was approached by a kind looking man, who took me by the hand and began to comfort me”. “But, when I looked down”she continued, “I saw that his nails had grown into claws and that the claws were beginning to penetrate my hand”. At that point, she woke up.

    I didn’t say anything to her at first, but those who know anything about the experiences of those who have offended Shugden will recognize both of these, the strangling and the claws, as being a clear indication that one has incurred the displeasure of the deity. The strangling dreams have been reported frequently by those who have formerly propitiated, then abandoned the deity and are well documented. The claws are reminiscent of a dream the current Dalai Lama had some years ago in which he says “I dreamt that I was sitting on my bed. Beside my bed was a small boy, about seven or eight years old, whom I took to be Dolgyal. This boy was holding my right hand. When I looked again, I saw that where he held my hand the boy’s fingernails were changing into claws and he was extending them.”

    The bleeding continued unabated to the point that I decided to seek urgent medical advice and, within hours of seeing the doctor, my wife was rushed into hospital for emergency transfusions.

    They ascertained on arrival, that while the human body ordinarily contains around 5.5 litres of blood, my wife had only around 2.8. She continued to bleed profusely for the next few days, though her symptoms were alleviated somewhat by regular transfusions. She eventually stabilised and the bleeding was stemmed after about a week.Once the bleeding stopped however, my wife had to endure painful and intrusive examinations, initially while conscious. These examinations revealed a small growth in her uterus, which was immediately removed. Fortunately, after making prayers and desisting from further activities in relation to the publication, we have recently learned that the growth was non-malignant.

    Of course, some might argue that my wife’s condition was induced by psychosomatic causes, this being a response conditioned by a combination of subliminal fear and a knowledge of the manner in which the wrath of the deity manifests.

    However, unlike myself, my wife knew absolutely nothing of the manner in which Shugden’s displeasure manifests; neither is it something that I have ever discussed with her nor is it anything of which she has ever read. Until I finally explained the significance of the dreams, she had no knowledge of, nor interest in such matters and the explanation that there was the possibility that the affliction was the result of my having offended the deity came as a great shock to her.

    I’m sure you can see from this why it has been impossible for me to continue with the book; though I would, hopefully, willingly sacrifice my life for the Dharma, it is certainly not appropriate to consider sacrificing that of my wife, the mother of my children. In short, not only was the future livelihood of my family under threat; circumstances appeared to indicate that their very lives might be under threat. I therefore felt it imperative that I withdraw the publication.

    Despite the above, there is a definite bright side to all this. Now that I have abandoned work on the project, as well as my wife’s illness subsiding, I have become aware of the great value of remaining totally detached at all levels from the highly politicized internecine disputes that characterize Western Buddhism and instead, focusing on the Dharma itself.

    I believe it was Jamgon Kongtrul the Great who observed that any sense of allegiance to a particular school, sect or view is a massive hindrance to the development of one’s own understanding. This allegiance to a particular faction, combined with the cult of personality endemic in Western Buddhist organizations nowadays, is, in my opinion, the basis of all that is wrong with Buddhism in the West in the 21st century.

    At least in my own case, these obstacles have presented me with the opportunity to abandon involvement in endless childish games and instead focus on that which is truly meaningful. I only wish that others involved in this unholy row would realize this and stop fighting. Otherwise, it is only matter of time before naive and inexperienced Westerners, many of whom appear to consider themselves great experts in their faith despite having seen only one face of the jewel, destroy the Dharma. It took the Tibetans 1200 years to screw things up; we Westerners seem to have managed the same in less than 40!

    With many, many thanks for you concern and good wishes,

    Gary

    Documents

    2010-05-16 NKT Letter to Gary Beesley
    2010-05-14 NKT Letter to Arena Books

  249. NKT devil skinheads announce new avatar…
    the last mindbender, I guess they realise gyatso’s days are numbered

    http://www.nktworld.org/backagain.html

  250. Testing testing( I wrote something but it didnt appear wondering if to retry. If its there and going to be apprved pls delete this)

  251. Ok It didnt get through.
    My post is to say the following opinion. All of the people above are either members of the NKT or disgruntled former members. If you want this sort of thing to stop happening online then you need to make it so that people in the orgainsation do not end up like this. For every person who ends up this way there is at least 3 years of talking online if not longer.

    The solution is to distinguish between 2 possibilities:
    1) A person leaving the NKT unhappy with what they experienced there
    2) A person leaving the NKT on the whole thinking its not for them but at the same time it is an ethical organisation

    The NKT needs to stop turning their loyal followers into person 1

    The way to accomplish this is in the next post

  252. Summarised document
    —————————–

    The essential points of the document are as follows.

    If we practice 7 spiritual ethics we will overcome all potential abuse problems. Listed below are the 7 spiritual ethics in summary. I composed these myself & they can be edited. This document was composed for any & all religious groups to use & is in no way a critique of any one group. I myself have done the opposite of these ethics due to my own incompetence due to inexperience in spiritual ways of life.

    The religious ethic 1: To have a feedback system where the feedback is valued & considered properly & addressed both by the leader & its administrators. Again a feedback system that is not just a token gesture but genuine. Listening to feedback is a great protector of religious groups. If 1 out of 10 people are finding a problem then when you convert 1000 people, 100 of them will have a problem. So it is crucial to solve these problems & address these issues in the early stages. Otherwise it will develop that an increasing number of former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

    http://www.sfzc.org/zc/display.asp?catid=1,5,13,134&pageid=37

    http://www.sfzc.org/zc/display.asp?catid=1,5,13&pageid=766

    Religious ethic 2: Do not take large amounts of money from individuals. Find an ethical way to fundraise that is not this method. Do not lavish the leaders & admins with luxury whilst the new boy grinds away in a servile manner or vice versa. Do not spend fundraised money on other than you declared it was for.

    Religious ethic 3: Do not speak ill of the non believer. They are sponsoring your spiritual life, building your halls of worship, making the clothes you wear & providing a society in which all the things you need are given with ease. They are also supporting your religious freedom. Do not say they are degenerates, lower beings, foolish etc. Always keep respect gratitude & valuing of the community. Keep good relations with neighbours and the community without any conversion agenda. Do not chastise people who want to read news & go outside & socialize.

    Religious ethic 4: Do not coerce or pressure people in any way to convert so they then have to ‘leave’. Do not let people take commitments/vows/contracts when they are not ready. People who have converted must be treated well if they choose to leave and not be put under any pressure to stay. They must be as free as a bird. Once they are outside they must continue to be treated well & respected with gratitude for their contribution before they left. If the philosophy is very different from world view then the person should be supported as they go back to their previous world view as it can be disorientating. Even traditional religions hold a strong view of the world & it is hard to move to a non religious view.

    Religious ethic 5: Do not treat new people & visitors different from converts. If you wouldn’t do it to a new person don’t do it to a convert & vice versa. Do not treat rich young able people differently from sick elderly poor people. If you wouldn’t invade a new person’s privacy don’t invade the privacy of a long time devotee. Following this guideline solves a huge range of issues explained in the more detailed explanation. This is the summarised version.

    Religious ethic 6: As a leader admit your mistakes. We are all on a spiritual journey together & seeing how you overcome problems will help us do the same. Purity is about your intention so if you are open to feedback on how to do things administratively this does not damage people’s faith in you as long as you have a good intention of cherishing & respecting other people both converts & non converts. Do not hide your faults & shortcomings. Do not discourage feedback by showing distress. If you are distressed by information, people who work for you will hide it from you. Do not teach arrogance by chastising people. Because then they will copy you. Do not be distant from your disciples as misunderstandings will develop if people cannot contact you. Do not dictate policy rather ask people for ideas. Of course the teaching cannot be edited but to administrate enforced control of people’s activities & speech leads to rebellion & harm to everybody, yourself, your admins, current members & former members.

    Religious ethic 7: Do not pressure other sects to follow your methods; each sect has their own way. If another sect is pressuring you then show them this document. The only time to interfere in another sects business is if members of the other sect ask you for help. At that time help in accordance with their wishes if it is ethical. Do not belittle other sects as you do not know if they have secret more advanced instructions that surpass yours. If another sect is being unethical they will culminate many ex followers raising protest. Therefore the issue will automatically be resolved between the sect & its ex members. Therefore there is no need to criticize other sects as nature will take its course. The sect will have to adapt & stop upsetting people. If you think your sect is better than other sects you might be able to say this without it corrupting your heart but when everyone starts copying you & saying it and it becomes the norm what will happen? Offense, arrogance will become rife.

  253. Testing testing( I wrote something but it didnt appear wondering if to retry. If its there and going to be apprved pls delete this)

    Whenever a comment contains more than one weblink the WordPress software puts that comment into a moderation queue. This can cause a delay until an admin approves the comment.

  254. If you knew that tommorow is your last day in this life would you be still taking parts between NKT and Dali Lama? Do we really have time to discuss about things we dont really know when Yamaraja is unpredictable? Just wondering….

  255. Of course not but we need to be aware that Buddhism is currently being presented to a large amount of people and it needs to be presented well. Most people in the world today believe that religion is poison. Therefore we ALL need to remove any badness so that other people can also prepare for their deaths. We need to be a welcoming place for people who wish to try Lamrim etc not a place where you are welcomed with a clipboard or sects criticising each other or put off Buddhism for life. How does this help people at the time of their death? And how does it help me to only be concerned for myself?

  256. Michael

    If you tomorrow was your last day, would you perform a sadhana that included propitiating Shugden or would perform a sadhana that included propitiating a protector recommended by HHDL? Presumably you’d agree that this is a non-trivial choice?

  257. [ENGLISH] A Important letter to HH 14th Dalai Lama from Kadhampa (Kadhampa invite Dalai Lama to join back Kadham)

    http://www.facebook.com/note.php?saved&&note_id=157558817642535&id=164038393608279

  258. Actually, the Kadam remains enshrined within the four traditions, though principally the Gelug tradition, from whicch the NKT have disassociated themselves. Furthermore, the Kadampas did not practice Shugden or Vajrayogini, the two main NKT tantric practices. They cannot therefore claim to be the authentic descendants of the NKT. The letter is nothing more than some very poor politcal lind game playing, written to influence publc pinion, rather than havign any genuine spiritual substance. Not unlike the spiritual facade of the NKT which is in fact a politcally motivated money making machine intent on building its reputation. How very, very un Buddhist to play such games with those who are ignorant of the facts

  259. Gary
    Pes died on 18.12.2013. I know it’s a long time ago but I thought you should know.
    Shelley

  260. Anonymous

    Your “Summarised document” clearly shows that Lamaism is corrupt beyond measure.

    “Of course not but we need to be aware that Buddhism is currently being presented to a large amount of people and it needs to be presented well.”

    It is not Buddhism that is being presented, it is Lamaism. Wake up!!!

  261. This nkt group boils down to spirit worship of worst kind. The Dalai Lama does not warn lightly on their main deity which it has taken 500 years within Tibetan Buddhism to unanimously agree and conclude on its malevolent nature. Caveat Emptor! Do your research folks and let your community know what is in their midst.

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