Report on the 2X2’s by Dialogue Ireland with reference to Child Protection and other issues.

 

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https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/two-by-twos-by-someone-who-grew-up-and-out-of-the-movement/#more-6250

 

In 2012 we published a testimony of a person who grew up in the 2X2’s and it led to significant debate. Some including Evangelical Christians tended to regard the 2X2’s as a cult because they did not hold to a full statement of Evangelical belief.

This led to the focus on this issue in the publication of the very provocative book, by Irvine Grey,  “Two by Twos” The Shape of a Shapeless Movement.

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Irvine Grey is a person with both an ‘evangelistic heart’ and a clear view that the 2X2’s are “a very dangerous cult.”

Picture of Irvine

Dialogue Ireland was formerly an inter – Christian body but has become a non sectarian, non religious organisation.

https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/about/

In summary:

“Motivated by the inalienable right to religious freedom, Dialogue Ireland is an independent Trust that seeks to promote people’s freedom to make informed choices about religious, spiritual and philosophical beliefs. Though Dialogue Ireland has its origins as a Christian organisation it is now open to all belief systems and none. All we require is that those working with us share a common understanding of cultism.”

“The key point here is that the issue, in terms of being a problem, is not beliefs – it is when a group develops a level of undue influence that causes a person harm (whether financial, societal, mental or otherwise). Bringing theology into this doesn’t address this dynamic.”

 

https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/further-links-to-the-two-by-twos-this-is-not-about-theology-heresy-or-orthodody-but-cultism/

Regardless of ones views on Irvine Grey’s book it is clear that the 2X2 are totally invisible and no one has a sense of who they are or their history. We can say that the book gives the ordinary reader a sense of the history and the various groupings that make up the 2X2’s history and which they refuse address in the present. After I visited their Convention it is clear that thousands of their members are coming on line to get a sense of who they are on our site.

 

https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/category/christian/two-by-twos/

 

 

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_by_Twos

 

1968-robertspatricia-1991

 

A movement that refuses to face its history, and does not encourage theological and historical investigation is in our opinion likely to end up going down a cul de sac.

In order to get to know a bit more I was able to meet a senior Worker Craig Fulton to get a better sense of what the 2X2’s were about.

Craig Fulton Richard Hughes

https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2015/09/18/di-director-meets-with-two-workers-of-the-home-fellowship-of-christians/

 

There was a bit of a break and then some of the issues which have been stewing for a number of years like the Tanner abuse case came to a head. Robert Noel Tanner was sentenced to prison very late in 2016. Here is the background to the case.

http://thelibertyconnection.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=385:robert-csa-ireland&catid=28:child-sexual-abuse-stories&Itemid=38

Again here is the report on the court case

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/preacher-in-religious-sect-assaulted-boy-433352.html

 

This should be encouraging but the reason we are publishing this story so long after the event is the following.

“In addition to a year’s jail sentence, Tanner was ordered to sign the Sex Offenders’ Register and was not allowed to be near children or vulnerable adults for a period of a year.”

What is disturbing is that the Truth, 2X2’s or whatever they call themselves, would by now have a Child Protection Policy? We have to assume that Robert Noel Tanner is at liberty and now is able to have access to children again? Also why can’t the ? Church establish a Child Protection policy? Why because in order for an organisation to obtain such status it must have a corporate identity like a company or at least have some form of unincorporated identity like a Trust for its members to be able to adopt or to obtain Garda clearance for its members working with children. We were approached by Social Services in the UK about adoption of a non 2X2 child by a 2X2 family. They were not able to produce a transparent system of child protection when asked to do so by social services. It also is using its leadership system to manage what it can’t. In other words one or two Workers can’t be viewed as an organisation when they themselves need to be under review. The Workers in other words are compromised when it comes to being the source of protection when they need to be themselves subject to obtaining clearance. Individuals can’t get clearance, catch 22.

https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2018/01/13/why-the-truth-2x2s-no-name-cant-deliver-on-child-protection/

I met the Craig Fulton and John Delaney in May and offered them support in developing their theology, historical research and began the process of trying to find a way for them to set in place a Child Protection system. I asked them to reply in detail by email but after clearly rejecting any help in regard to their theology and history, they also rejected any assistance with their Child Protection policy. I was not offering them any advice in this area where I have no competence but, shared with them how other churches have addressed this issue.

I then was invited to their Convention in June which I was most impressed with.

Landon House Carrick

Carrick Convention Meeting Area

Carrick Convention Dining Area

https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2017/06/15/no-name-2%C3%972-dialogue-ireland-director-is-going-to-the-van-der-hum-convention-in-co-laois-june-17-20/

This was what I wrote at the end of June:

“Having begun a process with Craig Fulton and John Delaney which you can read in the post above, I was kindly invited to go to the Convention and duly arrived last Saturday June 17. For obvious reasons the agenda we will be addressing will likely have to wait till September, but I am waiting to hear from Craig in written form how he sees this proceeding. All I asked for at this time was an acknowledgement of agreement to proceed but too date I have not received this.”

https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2017/06/22/2×2-report-of-my-testimony-at-the-truth-convention-let-us-start-from-the-very-beginning-then-on-the-other-hand-lets-start-at-the-end/#more-20074

When we met in September 2017 I had again received no written response to my questions from May, and Craig seemed surprised I found this unacceptable. John Delaney who is an accountant was very clear that the 2X2’s are not required to have company structure to run their Conventions. My advice concurred with this. However, with the advent of the Charities Regulatory Authority this may change and informal cooperation may no longer be acceptable.

www.charitiesregulatoryauthority.ie

Because they realised we had found the weakness in their protection plans they in reality could not reply to us. This has led to a breakdown on this subject. DI also formed the opinion that the Workers are in reality a clerical elite who run the organisation like a an unaccountable hierarchy. It is our considered opinion that the reason the 2X2’s can’t produce a Child Protection plan is that they have no organisational structure that can be given authorisation by the Gardai or the Police. They claimed they were talking to experts and taking advice from other countries where they have membership. Yes they can have a policy but in our humble opinion they can’t implement it. In summary only organisations can be granted child protection not individuals.

https://www.dcya.gov.ie/documents/Publications/ChildrenFirst.pdf

The 2X2’s have not responded to us since September. We advised them we would be publishing our research, but before doing so will give them a full right of reply. As they have known our position for over 4 months.

On 25 Jan 2018 Mike Garde wrote:

Dear Craig and John,

Happy New Year. As promised and a little later than hoped here is my post on the issue of Child Protection. We would be grateful to have your response with us by the beginning of February.

We have agreed to differ and are still open to meeting you on any issue and are in no way breaking off contact with you. I have edited this post with Paul and look forward to your response or correction of any points. Please reply to all.

Regards

Mike

On 29 Jan 2018 Craig Fulton replied.

 

Dear Mike,

 

I hope you’re keeping well.

 

Thank you for your email and for providing us with your draft report.

 

We don’t have any comments to make on the matters that you have outlined in your report and you should publish whatever you believe is appropriate.

 

We are happy to have engaged with you and believe that we have answered your questions in an open and honest manner.

 

With best regards, Craig
We hereby publish our report and even in the last line we note the 2X2’s believe they have answered us when too date we have received no such communication.

 

 

1967-robertspatricia-1990

 

Meetings

Speakers List

Carrick Convention car park

American Army sheds bought after WW2

2 Responses

  1. If you put up 2 or more links your comment is held up, hence the delay.

    Your argument is disingenuous at best.

    You seem to start every response with a personal attack. This is what you are saying about us:
    “not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.”
    Because you do not get the point that I am making about needing to have an organisational structure to obtain clearance or vetting to work with vulnerable people you keep drumming on about having a Protection Policy.
    Checking your IP address I chose a town in BC Canada and talked directly to the police. I will make a separate post on it later. I will also copy and paste your comment to the appropriate post on this namely: https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2018/01/31/report-on-the-2x2s-by-dialogue-ireland-with-reference-to-child-protection-and-other-issues/

    Royal Canadian Mounted Police
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    Community police services are provided by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police through a contract with the City of Cranbrook.

    Royal Canadian Mounted Police – Cranbrook Detachment Office
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    General Information/Requests: 250-489-3471
    Website: http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/index-eng.htm

    I phoned the police and asked them what the policy was in regard to vulnerable people like minors. Like in Ireland the police will only deal with organisations and not with individuals period. So it looks like you are confusing two issues namely having a policy and what we are claiming is you can’t implement it.

    You either have a working child protection policy in place or you do not.

    No one has suggested you do not have a policy in place. Our point which Craig Fulton refused to address is that you can have a policy but can’t put the vetting policy in place.

    No I do not have police clearance to protect children in my home but somehow, my policies seemed to have worked well.

    Now you are admitting what I am saying, you have a policy but your Workers and people in your home working with children do not have police vetting or clearance.
    You can have who you like in your home but when your home functions as a 2X2 location all working must be vetted by the police.

    Just because I am not registered with the police does not mean I don’t have a child protection policy as you seem to suggest.

    What I am suggesting is you have a Child Protection Policy in place but you have admitted you can’t implement in accordance with the law as you have no incorporated or non incorporated body in place.

    As you must be well aware, good policies and practices are what prevent child abuse. In fact, from our experience, the greatest preventative element is awareness which we at WINGS have long promoted amongst 2×2’s.

    https://wingsfortruth.info/

    We are aware of that, but what you are clearly not aware of is that you need to have all those working with children vetted.

    Here are some guidelines in Northern Ireland for organisations developing child safeguarding policies. https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/safeguarding/writing-a-safeguarding-policy/

    We are familiar with them and in fact sent them to Craig. We are not interested in the policy but your failure to have an organistion that could implement them.

    Here are the sample guidelines for child protection written by “friends and workers” around the world that have been referred to in developing regional guidelines. https://sites.google.com/site/csacodeofconduct/entire-site

    Excellent material, not a problem with it at all. As I wrote in my report at the Convention I was very impressed by the way everyone took part and the cooperative way of working. That is not a question but the Tanner case raises serious issues still. We still have not seen the policy for Ireland, but we are very clear that the 2X2’s have rejected any organisational system which would make vettting possible. https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2018/01/13/preacher-in-religious-sect-assaulted-boy/

    Your argument is disingenuous at best. You either have a working child protection policy in place or you do not. No I do not have police clearance to protect children in my home but somehow, my policies seemed to have worked well. Just because I am not registered with the police does not mean I don’t have a child protection policy as you seem to suggest. They are not working at all as the basic building block of vetting is not there.
    Just because I am not registered with the police does not mean I don’t have a child protection policy as you seem to suggest.

    Here are some guidelines in Northern Ireland for organisations developing child safeguarding policies. https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/safeguarding/writing-a-safeguarding-policy/

    As you must be well aware, good policies and practices are what prevent child abuse. In fact, from our experience, the greatest preventative element is awareness which we at WINGS have long promoted amongst 2×2’s.

    https://wingsfortruth.info/

    Here are the sample guidelines for child protection written by “friends and workers” around the world that have been referred to in developing regional guidelines.

    https://sites.google.com/site/csacodeofconduct/entire-site

    Like

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