More on the invasion Victory Outrage

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There was little media interest in the so called Invasion by VO. But here we have a link showing that the LBGT community is not very happy with VO’s presence in Ireland. DI as an organisation that gives information about VO is now been accused of taking a position on homosexuality by publishing this report. We totally refute that idea, and that is the equivalent of saying that a library that holds books on Adolf Hitler supports Nazism. We see it as our role to bring information in the public domain to the Irish public. Yesterday we received a comment from Seattle Washington from former addicts. It is clear we are one of the only organisations bringing this information to the public.
Also we guarantee free speech and will provide a forum for anyone opposing what we write and give them an uncensored right of reply.

http://justpaste.it/victoryoutreach

40 Responses

  1. Maurice: Jason Alvarez relevance to your post is? Also as an American in Ireland what is your gig? Do you work for VOI? Are you actually endorsing abusive forms of ministry. Get a life. Victory Outreach in Ireland is very tempting to people who find it difficult to get help for their addiction. As they are given help, they find the devil is in the detail. Perhaps you can help us by going to our report and addressing it? Don’t forget Freedom Ministries is still on the go as well. The public are totally confused. Note you are still in Rathdrum. When is Sonni going to let go this prize and agree to reform the organisation? He is a frequent flier for Jesus.

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  2. A man breaks down in his car in a rough neighborhood in Dublin, it is am and as he is looking under the hood of his car to rectify the problem he hears voices in the dark approaching him. Does it matter if they are a group of drug taking thugs or if they are just some guys heading home from a late night Bible and prayer meeting? Dose the Bible change lives for the better? well, history tells quite a number of stories. http://www1.cbn.com/700club/ Positive criticism should always be welcome with negotiation in order to make people feel safe in surrounding areas. they need to be convinced that those in charge have the qualifications to do their jobs. If what a ministry does in the open,is seen by the community, there will be no need to say and do things behind closed doors. I think Victory outreach gives those who want a second chance at life that chance. If it is from a Christian Curricula all the better, a God focused life is a life with purpose meaning and the developmental ethos which enables recovering addicts to stand alone once again, though they are never alone, and integrate back into society. I see no harm in addicts welfare money being used to help reform them, its the road to recovery. I see no harm in recovering addicts working all day long selling whatever to collect money to further the expansion of the ministry. I see much criticism by many who have probably never put their hand in their pocket to help those in need. Whether to but a cup of tea or pass on a second hand coat. Every town in Ireland has some story of abuse, drugs or not, yet drugs are often the result for those who have been abused and mistreated. Good Job Victory, and I pray you receive the right funding and help as others stand on the sidelines and point fingers they don’t see the real work that goes on behind the scenes.

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  3. Anonymous 2 we have wasted a lot of time. You and Steve could have given our readers some insights but it has taken nearly 2 weeks to realise that that link was all about the abuse of vulnerable addicts and you decided to have a discussion about the gay issue. Our readers kept telling you this but you kept off track. Anyway you are always welcome to give us insights. You are misinformed about Valdez he is still active here under Freedom Ministries. We will continue to monitor his role and the new VO operation.

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  4. We are going round in circles.good luck with mountjoy. Valdez has been excommunicated VOI will be distancing their self from him. Valdez will return to America and you will wait for more complaints about VO.
    My mistake was addressing Christian issue on a non christian site.

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  5. Anonymous 2

    DI if you are in court charge with a crime and I as the judge for the case use the the law books provided to make my evaluation would I be wrong in pronouncing sentence.

    You would be totally off topic to after at least 5 attempts to explain to you and Steve Tucker to continue this discussion of homosexuality. I repeat again, we are not interested in discussing the topic. You never answered the simple question did you read the actual reports on that LBGT link? We are not reporting on the issue of gays but on the fact that it was newsworthy that they were the only grouping since the newspapers and TV reported on VO in 2013 to actually address them. No Evangelical Church, no drug ministry has since our report given an opinion about the situation. In other words most people are afraid to actually stand up for anything.
    Here are the links referred to in that article and only a few are connected to the gay issue.

    Main website: http://victoryoutreach.org

    European ‘invasion’ tour
    http://victoryoutreach.org/event/european-invasion-2015/#fndtn-general

    Victory Outreach does not endorse homosexuality or lesbianism; we consider both to be immoral
    https://secure.victoryoutreach.org/aboutus/beliefs.pdf

    Victory Outreach-a cult exploiting the inner city
    http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-491695-victory-outreach-a-cult-exploiting-the-inner-city.html

    Drug addiction charity accused of making users work 18 hours a day unpaid
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/drug-addiction-charity-accused-of-making-users-work-18-hours-a-day-unpaid-29847580.html

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/pastor-outreach-group-will-clear-its-name-252980.html

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1217/493389-addiction-recovery-homes/

    http://www.thejournal.ie/victory-outreach-prime-time-documentary-1226439-Dec2013/

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=81885066

    So with all due respect would VOI be wrong if the book they read let’s say it is the Bible and that book teaches against homosexuality would they be wrong to speak out against it.?

    Again I really do not care as our interest is not in that issue but cultism. It is you guys who have got your knickers in a twist over this issue.

    LBGT can take what ever position they want but voi may not agree with them,would they have have a right to say that?

    We are not interested and you can’t let it go.

    Was DI happy with the way VO answer their question for their final report if so what is this all about.

    We have come to the conclusion that the answer to our report was this invasion. An attempt by creating a buzz and they could divert attention from the failure to deal with Valdez and instead of suspending their work here as it is totally dysfunctional they decided to build another Empire. I thought you and Steve would make a proper analysis of the report and give us some insights. Are we surprised by their response not all. Paul is a puppet on a string and Sony is the Pope of VO and there is no devolved leadership. Paul has tried to be normal in Manchester but when the rubber hit the road they could not answer any of our report.

    My mistake was not using the word vulnerable adults and I entirely agree with you about taking a stand against the abuse of vulnerable adults ,that is not acceptable behavior for a Christian organization and the bible would not condone that,and there need to be some accountability or nothing will change.

    We finally agree on something.

    You refer to, not going to be a another thread “Find”.

    I assume you mean FINE. However, the section before this took us back to this Gay stuff.

    You would need to spend time inside VO to understand how it ticks trying to explain now it ticks will take some explaining ,and yes I was there for six plus years. Many people I new but in a great deal of effort to try and make VO work.

    No doubt I would, however, I have experience of working in this field. In 1968 I worked at St Paul’s House, The Bowery Mission and the McCauley/Water St Mission in NYC. One of my achievements was to stop the practice of no bible no breakfast with addicts. We instead fed the hungry and if they wished to stay for the bible we invited them. No compulsion in religion.

    The Concept of the recovery home isn’t a bad idea just that the basic building blocks need to change if there is to more hope for those in the homes.

    Explain yourself? Here at present there is a massive demand for places in drug addiction programmes. Where VO has a lead is that they take people who are vulnerable but only have a very narrow conversionist approach which leaves addicts more broken after they meet them. Remember what Jesus said about conversions and people being 10 times worse after it. They have no demands and that gives the vulnerable the idea they are more open.

    I am sure your question are helping them to make some adjustments to the way they do things

    We believe they have modified the whole handbook as a result of us questioning a lot of their views. In fact most of their practice is a copy and paste of the AOG with Sony as the fuhrer.

    You have miss the hold point of the VO invasion,it just what they do.

    So how have we missed the point. You and Steve keep asserting this but give some evidence?
    You have missed the point that their antics are supposed to create a human high like drugs but as soon as the circus left town people will be as depressed as before.
    You two are for now two weeks by not addressing VO left them off the hook.

    All round the world it part of their G.A.N.G mentally, what valdez did is history.

    We know they do this around the world, but I note you think the Valdez issue is history. Not here it is something we hope to bring to a conclusion in a place called Mountjoy.

    We as Christian cannot just make it up as we go along surly we must have something to guide us. I wonder what that would be. what the next man tell us, and where would his authority come from.I would have to ask that question,or some politician make a law. How am I going to be guided if the goalpost are move by who ever fancy doing it. what is right from wrong how would I know, would the bible help with that. When I was at VO what I was seeing and hearing was not always compatible with what I was reading in my Bible.may be I should just have gone along with them,I wonder weather I would be on your site today if I did.

    As I explained to you this is not a Christian site, but one dedicated to the protection of freedom of the mind and breaking the chains of undue influence. What you believe I respect but I do not discuss my personal beliefs. Why because in order to be available for people of all views we must not project ours.

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  6. DI if you are in court charge with a crime and I as the judge for the case use the the law books provided to make my evaluation would I be wrong in pronouncing sentence. So with all due respect would VOI be wrong if the book they read let’s say it is the Bible and that book teaches against homosexuality would they be wrong to speak out against it.?

    LBGT can take what ever position they want but voi may not agree with them,would they have have a right to say that?

    Was DI happy with the way VO answer their question for their final report if so what is this all about.

    My mistake was not using the word vulnerable adults and I entirely agree with you about taking a stand against the abuse of vulnerable adults ,that is not acceptable behavior for a Christian organization and the bible would not condone that,and there need to be some accountability or nothing will change.

    You refer to, not going to be a another thread “Find”.

    You would need to spend time inside VO to understand how it ticks trying to explain now it ticks will take some explaining ,and yes I was there for six plus years. Many people I new but in a great deal of effort to try and make VO work. The. Concept of the recovery home isn’t a bad idea just that the basic building blocks need to change if there is to more hope for those in the homes. I am sure your question are helping them to make some adjustments to the way they do things

    You have miss the hold point of the VO invasion,it just what they do. All round the world it part of their G.A.N.G mentally,what valdez did is history.

    We as Christian cannot just make it up as we go along surly we must have something to guide us. I wonder what that would be. what the next man tell us, and where would his authority come from.I would have to ask that question,or some politician make a law. How am I going to be guided if the goalpost are move by who ever fancy doing it. what is right from wrong how would I know, would the bible help with that. When I was at VO what I was seeing and hearing was not always compatible with what I was reading in my Bible.may be I should just have gone along with them,I wonder weather I would be on your site today if I did.

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  7. Anonymous 2

    “Hi DI” your first point if LBGT were trying, to make a point at VOI expense,because of their stand on homosexuality.

    I am trying to understand this sentence but can’t could you please rework it.

    Was that position from a Biblical perspective if so they are entitled to do so.

    I assume you are referring to the LBGT group? They are entitled to take any perspective they wish. Why would they be interested in a biblical perspective? Also if you read the article which the LBGT folks published it had links to all the issues related to earlier abuse of addicts. The LBGT issue was a minor part of the link? Did you actually look up up the articles referenced?

    Your second point if in your final report, was all the questions you had answer if not why not .if there was unanswered questions would that have clear the murky waters for you.

    Again I can’t make any sense of your reply. Also I have made a number of replies could you reference what you are replying to?
    Point four I realized that discussion would not happen on your site I am not sure if I would want to be involved with that one anyway .

    Point three “sorry my mistake ”

    Which mistake?

    Point four I realized that discussion would not happen on your site I am not sure if I would want to be involved with that one anyway .

    You have no full stop between sentences and again I do not understand what you are saying?

    If you deal with Christian groups I would think finding out what they use as a teaching guide would help to understand them.

    Again I do not understand what you are saying here?

    My question would be how is that teaching guide been interpreted,that is why I have some interest VOI and groups like them.

    So you think the problems at VO will be addressed by being able to get a handle on their teaching material. You are concerned about their orthodoxy, not about the abuse of people? They left a mess here, and instead of addressing it they believe the answer is to invade and deflect

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  8. “Hi DI” your first point if LBGT were trying, to make a point at VOI expense,because of their stand on homosexuality. Was that position from a Biblical perspective if so they are entitled to do so.
    Your second point if in your final report, was all the questions you had answer if not why not .if there was unanswered questions would that have clear the murky waters for you.
    Point three “sorry my mistake ”
    Point four I realized that discussion would not happen on your site I am not sure if I would want to be involved with that one anyway . If you deal with Christian groups I would think finding out what they use as a teaching guide would help to understand them. My question would be how is that teaching guide been interpreted,that is why I have some interest VOI and groups like them.

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  9. This is my final reply on this issue, and am only posting it as B has asked certain questions of me. All the very best with your investigation.

    Steve, I want to know exactly why you think DI is deflecting away from the issues at hand when he is merely reporting that the LBGT community is not very happy with VO’s presence in Ireland. It is written quite clearly.
    “I feel that using this card will take DI further away from dealing with the real issues that effect real people, and put up more walls making it harder to get answers from those in leadership in VOI. Please stick to the reason that has got you this far in the first place, silence is a pointer that you’re getting through.”
    Why would you say this?

    This is just going over old ground, but for your sake B, I FULLY support the hard work that DI have undertaken in trying to bring to light the abuse of vulnerable people by VOI based in Ireland. I also understand the idea of freely reporting on other groups and their complaints about VOI and bringing that to the attention of people who keep in touch with DI. The LBGT issue can be misleading though, as I remember from my time in VOI (London) there being at least 3 homosexuals receiving the same help as any other service user. There was no discrimination and there was certainly no favoritism shown to heterosexuals over homosexuals. Whilst the original investigation by RTE and DI is based on hard-hitting facts, and has plenty of evidence to back up its claims. Do the LBGT hold rally’s if the Catholic church are holding a meeting in a public building, as I’m sure their views on homosexuality would be almost identical to those of VOI.

    How is DI taking it ‘further’ away?

    When trying to get organizations like VOI around the table to talk, it can get very frustrating as many promises are made in the face of being presented with the evidence, only to be led up the garden path. It is more like taking one step forward and 3 back. VOI would not see this and think to themselves, ‘we need to continue our progress with DI’. No, they will use this to refuse any kind of communications, and they will order those in talks to cease immediately.

    What has he done to take it away previously?

    Nothing

    Steve, like VO, you are avoiding answering my question and are giving the same types of answers we are all used to.

    Hopefully I have answered your questions now. As for me being like VO, I’m sure Sonny, The Elders,Paul Lloyd and many others would have something to say about that.

    Now please, tell us, what exactly is your problem with DI?

    Who are the us? I have NO problem with DI

    Please spell out how exactly he is not serving the public well with his reporting of VO, because honestly, I am not sure what else he could be doing as he has been thorough enough so far.

    I have not accused Mike of not serving the public well, in fact I’m trying my hardest to fish information out for him, as I know how frustrating it can be dealing with the rabbit burrows of VOI.

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  10. Anonymous 2. You are in Dagenham, Anonymous 1 in Manchester and Steve Anonymous) is in Swansea. Yes you are not Anonymous which is Steve, but Anonymous 2. Hopefully for clarity you can now use that to actually comment on VO, as otherwise comments will be moved to the commenting section.
    Please comment on this thread here:
    More on the invasion Victory Outrage

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  11. Anonymous 2 it is clear you hold the same view as VO on LBGT issues. That is of no relevance to us.
    We are not trying to defend any particular belief system here. I have repeated our mission statement ad nauseam now. Here it is: We have Christians, Atheists, Agnostics, Pentecostals and others who work together on cultism. Here is what we are about:
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/about/cultism/
    Though Dialogue Ireland has its origins as a Christian organisation it is now open to all belief systems and none. All we require is that those working with us share a common understanding of cultism*.
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/about/

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  12. Anonymous 1

    B you seem tobe missing the point.steve seem to have made the point VOI accountability fo the mistreatment of valuable adults etc

    I assume you mean Vulnerable adults? We have spent three years bringing that point to the public.

    Again I have no idea what you are saying here:

    LGBT is s discussion for another thread .That biblical discussion will require a great deal of wisdom and truth if the bible is the measure of what need tobe said..

    This is not a LGBT discussion but a report of their reaction to the invasion. There is not going to be another thread to discuss the LGBT issue as we are not a Christian site where people debate various biblical views. We are concerned about the abuse of people in the Valdez outfit and vO which is now not going to engage. We have written our report. Engage with that or about the recent invasion, but no other issues please. We are closing this Steve thread on LGBT and will move any further reference to it.

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  13. Anonymous 2 I have changed your name as otherwise people will get confused.
    I have no idea Anonymous 2 what you are saying here. Could you clarify?

    it seem steve did not want the LBGT issues taking away from the issues in hand i e VOI accountability to Question that could be answer that may will clear the murky waters, and help DI to see more clearley.

    We are clear what we are doing, no one is stopping Steve commenting, but he has now spent over a week not telling us what the invasion was about. It was he who insisted we were off track by putting up the information. So let it go and get on with giving your opinion on the VO issue we are not interested in the LBGT issue at all.

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  14. Wrong not Steve Tucker

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  15. Anonymous (Steve Tucker)
    This is a case of Steve using Anonymous on his mobile phone and not his name as on a computer. If everyone uses the name Anonymous we are going to be totally confused. Steve I have been waiting for you to go back onto the main issue but you keep repeating yourself and say we are off the thread. We define the thread and it is on the invasion. Part of the invasion as B mentioned was report by the LBGT community. That is part of of our report. End of story.

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  16. Anon B DI have the right to report on what they like,the point is the issues of LBGT not been happy with VOI of any important, and what are VOI saying that bible believing Christian would have difficulty with. Any organization have a different view then that of LBGT would find themselves in a similar position as VOI. So I refer to my previous post

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  17. Anon, no i think you are missing the point. DI can report on what they like and in this case they are simple reporting on an issue related to VOI. To say that this detracts away from the so called main issue with VOI is wrong, if anything it adds to the seriousness of VOI’s activities.
    B

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  18. B you seem tobe missing the point.steve seem to have made the point VOI accountability fo the mistreatment of valuable adults etc.LBGT is s discussion for another thread .That biblical discussion will require a great deal of wisdom and truth if the bible is the measure of what need tobe said..

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  19. Steve, I want to know exactly why you think DI is deflecting away from the issues at hand when he is merely reporting that the LBGT community is not very happy with VO’s presence in Ireland. It is written quite clearly.
    “I feel that using this card will take DI further away from dealing with the real issues that effect real people, and put up more walls making it harder to get answers from those in leadership in VOI. Please stick to the reason that has got you this far in the first place, silence is a pointer that you’re getting through.”
    Why would you say this? How is DI taking it ‘further’ away? What has he done to take it away previously?
    Steve, like VO, you are avoiding answering my question and are giving the same types of answers we are all used to. Now please, tell us, what exactly is your problem with DI? Please spell out how exactly he is not serving the public well with his reporting of VO, because honestly, I am not sure what else he could be doing as he has been thorough enough so far.
    B

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  20. it seem steve did not want the LBGT issues taking away from the issues in hand i e VOI accountability to Question that could be answer that may will clear the murky waters, and help DI to see more clearley.

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  21. B. Can’t see where the confusion is, so don’t know how to answer you. Be nice to get the thread back onto its original track though.

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  22. Steve, after reading through this thread, I am very perplexed as to what point you are trying to make. Can you please explain yourself?

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  23. We look forward to your commentary on recent events. I had assumed you had some ideas already?
    Also I missed your comment on my analogy on Hitler and a library? Where did you leave it?

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  24. Not meaning to be anonymous, just had time to post and used my phone which is not logged in. I’m not the only one going on about the gay issue Mike, just responding to your post about Hitler and the library. Anyway, I really don’t want to get side tracked on the REAL issue which is VOI and it’s silence. Will post once I get some information that can be helpful.

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  25. Steve why are you using the moniker Anonymous when it is clear who you are? Also could you focus on your interpretation of the invasion? We are clear you got bent out of shape by the gay issue. You are the only one going on about it.
    We appreciate your insights so please leave them for people to get.

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  26. My point on homosexuality has obviously been misunderstood. VOI and it’s views on homosexuality ( whether individuals agree with the views or not) shouldn’t detract away from their abuse of vulnerable people and their lack of accountability, which is what the on going intonvestigation is based on, not their views on homosexuality. I understand the complex workings of VOI and can almost second guess their next move. In fact, I was part of the team that went to Dublin in the early 90’s to ‘establish’ the church/home. I too will praise DI for their hard work in exposing VOI and can only hope for an outcome that will clear up the murky waters left in the wake.

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  27. Dialogue Ireland has done more for exposing and holding VOI to account more than anything else in Ireland. The few years that VO spent in Cork and the mess they made has been an absolute disgrace. And it probably would still be going on to some extent if it wasn’t for DI. As someone who has seen the carnage caused first hand let me tell you that DI is providing an essential service to protecting the vulnerable. Accusing DI of taking a position on homosexuality is a total joke.
    B

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  28. In other words my being away in no way restricts you putting up your views. My only point was the link we published was full of background and recent media coverage something missing since 2013.

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  29. Anonymous you are free to hold your views and to post accordingly.
    However, we are free to disagree with these views. My only point was that because I am not currently in Dublin I could not really evaluate the actual situation till I was there. I note with interest that your current theory of viewing the actions of VO emerged only yesterday. Why did you not suggest it last December? Namely, we represented Satan and the invasion was God’s answer. Regardless of this it makes sense of their refusal to engage. It is also clear that Paul waz told to not engage on Facebook but he could not resist and as a result had to block me when he could not answer basic questions.

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  30. It is NOT my personal interpretation on the workings of Satan, but it will be the view of VOI and their members. I will wait for you to get back home, as a holiday/ break should be just that. Every blessing

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  31. 4. Finally regardless of the theological explanation you put forward it is clearly an attempt to divert from the events of 2013 and the subseqeunt developments. However, you are entitled to your opinion.

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  32. 3. May I suggest you give your Satanic interpretation of what is happening in Ireland. We are eagar to hear it. Outline why you believe this and give evidence for your position. That exactly what we want to hear from you.

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  33. 2. Steve having said you are goung to debate with me you proceed to do just that. I never said the gay issue was not referenced, all I say so what. It is part of reporting the ongoing story. Also you do not acknowledge the news links which have nothing to do with the gay issue but VO in general.

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  34. Steve I am not able to really engage with you where I am. I just have a phone.
    1. What do you mean by silencing the Christian voice? We do not silence anyone. You are free to express any viewpoint on this site but expect people to disagree with you.

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  35. Vo are doing what they think their mandate is reaching out with the christian message, their way,and many people have come to a saving knowledge of the gospel of Jesus christ with this method, I have no proplem with up holding the Bible and it’s words as to what is class as sin. what concern me and other is their accountability to the hole council of God. and weather other principles that the Bible teaches are handle with the same enthusiasm.

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  36. I’m not going to get into a debate with you on this matter, as I want to help bring VOI to account for the mess they have created in Ireland. They are not trying to divert attention by this invasion, this in their minds is a counter attack on Satan. They would see Satan as the mastermind behind the RTE and DI inquiries, and they think they are hitting back. The link clearly plays on the gay issue, to say it doesn’t is misleading.
    I hope we can disagree and still reason together. I understand that DI is not a Christian site, but I hope you will not silence the Christian voice.

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  37. Again Steve these last three posts have not been about, secrecy but the current invasion. My treatment on Facebook by VO indicates they are trying divert attention by this invasion. Now they are a hostage to fortune as they do not know who is coming out of the woodwork next.

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  38. In fact did you read the links attached to it as they bring reports up to date

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  39. Steve this was not an endorsement of either a gay or anti-gay position. The problem in Ireland since 2013 has been no interest in the VO issue. This link was sent to me this afternoon showing that the invasion has now receiving traction in Ireland. DI is not a Christian site but investigates cultism. I believe we should publish it. More the case as I am away from the country. Hopefully you can respond to the silence you mention and add relevant comment from your perspective?

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  40. I’m disappointed that the ‘anti gay’ card needs to be used when dealing with the secrecy surrounding VOI. It shouldn’t make any difference if they do not endorse or support LGBT equality, that is their given right in a free country to have an opinion or view that is different to others and our governments. I feel that using this card will take DI further away from dealing with the real issues that effect real people, and put up more walls making it harder to get answers from those in leadership in VOI. Please stick to the reason that has got you this far in the first place, silence is a pointer that you’re getting through.

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