Dr. Robert J. Lifton’s Eight Criteria for Thought Reform and Lamaism, the Cultist form of Buddhism

BY Chris Chandler

 

Robert Jay Lifton

Robert Jay Lifton (born May 16, 1926) is an American psychiatrist and author, chiefly known for his studies of the psychological causes and effects of war and political violence and for his theory of thought reform. He was an early proponent of the techniques of  psychohistory.

Disclaimer: Robert Jay Lifton wrote a seminal book, entitled, “Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism which was published in 1961. It had a subtitle, A study of “Brainwashing” in China.

However, he published a new edition in 1989. In the preface he noted the following point, “Now after twenty-eight years, my own sense of this book has changed. I see it as less a specific record of Maoist China and more of an exploration of what may be the most dangerous direction of the twentieth- century mind-the quest for absolute or “totalistic” belief systems.

In other words this book is not about China but about universal issues of mind control and not about the specifics of one country from which the initial evidence was gained.

In 1988 Steven Hassan published his book, “Combatting Cult Mind Control and he acknowledged the contribution that Robert J. Lifton had made to his thinking. It is clear by the time Robert J. Lifton wrote the new preface to his book one year later he owed a lot to those who were trying to address the issue of cultism.


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1.      Milieu Control.  This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.

 

Lamaism maintains a completely controlled system of communication, both within the environment, and within the individual.  Within the environment,  No information is allowed” in” and none of the secrets of the inner workings are allowed ‘out.”  For  an example of not allowing any information “in”, the scandals involving the Eco Karmapa , concerning money laundering, the illegal purchase of benami land, set aside for Indians, was all over the Indian news and even in the U.S.news that is very pro Lamaism.  This news never reaches these sanghas.   

 The Lamas made sure , in the closed system they maintain, that none of this reached the ‘devotees” in the U.S. and Britain, who support Ogyen Trinley Rinpoche, the Dalai Lama’s ‘prodigy” being groomed to take his place.  The lamas  need not have worried, since none of these  devotees, some of them programmed for years , would ever read anything that contradicted their pure view of this lama, or any lama in fact.  But for the newer students, it was essential to make sure that none of this information ‘got into the lama system”  so the older western students would function as important ‘gatekeepers” to minimize this news, to distort it as unimportant, and to make sure that the boundary from the outside, was completely “impermeable.”   For one year this scandal was all over the news, but none of the western Lamaist students knew anything about it.  Because they were told by the lamas, and the older students to pay no attention. 

 

Sogyal’s predatoriness and sexual abuse is similarly protected from being ‘information’ let into ‘other sanghas, that are closely related, and since all of them have formed an alliance now, this would be all of them , that is why the ‘circling of the wagons” was so important by these other lamas, who went ‘immediately’ to Rigpa centers, and taught,  or taught with Sogyal, side by side, or had western students make videos about how ‘wonderful” Sogyal is, all to deflect and prevent these sanghas from even contemplating the news.. 

They also powerfully control the information and communication within the individual, by their repressive, terrorizing vision of hell realms,  and the teachings that even a negative thought, particularly of their ‘gurus” or master lamas, will lead one to be in ‘hell forever” with no hope of return.  This would fall under the 8 deadliest transgressions, to see, say or believe anything negative about ANY of these lamas who are to be seen as living deities, that you are totally dependent on for ‘enlightenment” , which is , of course , a complete distortion of the Buddha’s teachings.

 

  1. Mystical Manipulation.  There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.

    In very short order, western students are indoctrinated into ‘magical thinking” and quickly disabused of their rational thinking and critical reasoning, which is systematically undermined, replaced with group think, carefully orchestrated by the older students, who model how to ‘view these lamas” by their sycophantic behaviours around them, their total submission to and agreement with everything these lamas say ‘as divinely inspired”.  While pretending to be ‘humble” one is learning that these are ‘divine beings” on these thrones, that the older students are submissively hanging on every word they sa, and who are only here to ‘help us”. Some fairy tales, include a lineage, where their previous lamas, were products of a deity and a human being..  Quickly one is following the group, to model submissive, prostrating behaviour, and a sudden belief in fairy tales , listening to fables about Tibet and the lineage of these divine ones,  and soon one learns to ask no penetrating, western type questions.  Hours of chanting, particularly when one is making offerings, long periods of meditation together, starts to have a ‘dissolving quality” on all that one has previously valued and believed.  It is shocking how quickly this happens.  The lamas are soon ‘creating ‘magical nets’ of protection around the group before a retreat, they are doing ‘purification practices, and ‘blessings” of books, and ritual materials, such as malas, they engage in special ‘abishekas.” It doesn’t take long for the group and newer students indoctrinated into these ‘mystical manipulations” to believe that the lama himself is divine, and the recipient, and manifestation of a living Buddha,  that represents sometimes hundreds of living deities, coming through his enlightened body to the students.  These lamas are experts at ‘mystical manipulation’ and have made it a ‘fine art” of seduction to quickly control the minds of the individuals in the group to believe this. 

3.      Demand for Purity.  The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection.  The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.

 In the Tibetan Lamaist cult one is immediately taught that one is ‘impure” and that is why one is in a ‘human body” and NOT in a deity body , like these lamas.  The teachings after being presented at first as ecumenical, and easy going, and relaxed, soon become  are all about ‘purity” and doing many practices, and cycles of practices to ‘purify’ ones being, that may and probably will take ‘lifetimes.” Soon, one begins to feel ‘less than they did” when they entered the Lamastocracy, and one loses confidence in one’s own individuality, which is ’emptied out, by both the dogma and the practices,  one feels ’empty” and often ‘only complete in the presence of the lamas.

4.  Confession.  Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group.  There is no confidentiality; members’ “sins,” “attitudes,” and “faults” are discussed and exploited by the leaders.

 

Lamas , have started using ‘confession in the group” recently, i.e. a confession of sins before the group,  and a confession of one’s faults, particularly if there has been a ‘change in administrations” the outgoing administration is humbled, with confessions,  or the ‘managers” of the group, use group shame to make devotees conform to the rules of the system.

 

 

5.  Sacred Science.  The group’s doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute.  Truth is not to be found outside the group.  The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.

The Tibetan Lamaist version of Buddhism , even though it is based on Hindustani Brahmin priestly caste system religion is taught as the “highest form’ of Buddhism and referred to as the Third Turning of the Wheel,  i.e. the highest teaching the Buddha taught, even though there is no record extant that the Buddha taught Guruism ( he actually said that ‘no one should sit higher than another, and to be a light unto yourself)  or in particular, the Mahayana gradual path,  or certainly NOT vajrayana. Vajrayana, and the master-disciple commitment, is said to be the highest teachings of the Buddha, and the fastest path to ‘enlightenment” even though in the Pali and Sanskrit teachings of the Buddha, there is no record of these teachings. Nor were their teachings on ‘reincarnation.” which is very helpful to keep those lamas on thrones, reincarnating again and again, the same person and the rest of us reincarnating into ‘higher” embodiments, IF we adhere to the Lama doctrine, The latter will of course take ‘many lifetimes.” Very convenient for them,  and a ‘long slog’ for the rest of us.  

6.     Loading the Language.  The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand.  This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members’ thought processes to conform to the group’s way of thinking.

 

       Almost all these Lamaist sanghas have their own ‘loaded” language,  new members soon learn to speak in the jargon of these cliches so that in short order, this loaded language has added to the group think. 

        1.Everything the lama does is a ‘great teaching” no matter how egregious, women who are particularly docile and conforming and sexual consorts, or the older female “pimps” for the lamas, are considered to be “Dakinis.”   They are treated with respect in front of the group, for ‘going along with the abuse”, (that film honoring that old Tibetan woman, Khandro is a classic brainwashing film for the western women, on how to behave!)   the more ‘traditional’ they are, to fit into their roles, the more praise they are given in the group. The men can be more arrogant and dismissive, since they are modelling the lamas.  But the men too, have to be willing to give up their egos, and this is considered again, not exploitation by the lamas for their own benefit, but a ‘great teaching,”, or if the show wrathful insulting behaviour to the student, he is getting a ‘great blessing’ and not an insult.  Physical abuse, becomes a quicker ‘purification” of one’s karma.   This list is not exhaustive, just the most obvious examples of loading the language.  

  2.  “Serving the lama’ also is a great blessing, and  ‘serving is the greatest elegance” or the best prostration could result in immediate enlightenment…. All of it is to make the individual conform to this repressive, autocratic lama system where individualism and critical thinking and even resistance to being submissive is turned on its head by the language.  

 

7.  Doctrine over person.  Member’s personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.

Everything that happens, again, is subordinated to the great blessing of being within this ‘sacred science”.  Ordinary events become ‘miraculous”,  Rain, rainbows, anything that happens in the ordinary world is no longer just objective events, but are magical and are a blessing of the lama, or the sacred teachings of the Buddha that only the lama can dispense. The point is to make the student totally dependent on the lama, just as in all cults the students become totally dependent on the leader,  completely infantilized. 

 8.   Dispensing of existence.The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not.  This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group’s ideology.  If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members.  Thus, the outside world loses all credibility.  In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also.  (Lifton, 1989)

 In old Tibet this would have been ‘literal” people were imprisoned, tortured or even killed if they were a danger to the lamas despotism.  But Tibetan Lamaism today uses more subtle rejection,  ‘ignoring that person” , rejecting that person, even wrathfully and insultingly treating that person, in the group, making sure that the heretical behaviour is noticed by the group, and the rejection serves to prevent anyone else from asking critical questions,  soon everyone in the group is into group think and totally conforming.  Laughing at the same time at the same jokes, all looking adoringly at their source of everything, i.e. the lamas on those thrones,  the students have  to become totally dependent on the lama, any independence is totally discouraged , subtlety and directly through shame in the group,  and , if someone leaves, Lamaism all together,  they are considered DEAD , lost, and even  a demon. To be shunned by the group, totally.  They are very dangerous to the lamas, but they are presented as very dangerous to the potential enlightenment of the group members who must shun them. 

937 Responses

  1. “For me to “draw out” the child with hypnosis is a special form of torture. You can maltreat the subconsciousness in the same way as the body. In the next time we have to learn that unethical hypnosis is able to do such terrible injury.”

    I agree and it has consequences particularly when the ‘child’ is vulnerable. For me, however, there is no “next time”. I would simply have the public know that hypnosis is being used and the results may be catastrophic and, I will state very strongly, also reversible. The only way out is to ban it’s use unless practitioners are registered and, furthermore, the people who use it are scrutinised by a committee of high ethical and moral standards. This should be in place NOW! Otherwise, people who use it who are not registered get a substantial fine or imprisoned, depending on the information available.

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  2. BackAtHome

    You offer a solution that “In public space the rules that allow a peaceful, social coexistence have primacy over the rules of any faith, including the belief in magic. Under such circumstances, different beliefs can be peacefully presented, discussed and respected. The public and that is also publicly accessible events may not be misused for secret proselytizing, manipulation or conversions due to pressure or even fraud.”

    Your idea is ethical and, on social occasions, this is how it seemed in the Educo cult on a more subtle level than you experienced. Quinn and those closest to him could not refrain from influencing people. It seemed orchestrated once Quinn showed an interest in an individual. Those who were used by Quinn socialised with them and, at some stage, would bring them before Tony Quinn. It all seems so innocent; as if the main interest was the person they were dating or visiting.

    “What we really need are rational people who value a mutually respectful coexistence higher than the struggle to acquire any dominant position, which always will be of temporary nature only, anyway.”

    I agree and yet it would seem impossible as the main aim of religions/cults in to gain power and rule. The worst of them carry out atrocities in the name of their religion even in countries that have laws to protect citizens, France being a recent example.

    Earlier you had a comment and question for Christiane:

    “„In my opinion, this all points to hypnosis. I wonder if there is any possibility to prove if a spiritual group in general or especially the group’s leader uses hypnosis.”

    Christiane’s answer: “This is the greatest problem at all. As I have written, the science doesn’t know the precise way from the hypnotist into the nervous system of the victim. Add to this the West doesn’t want to deal with unethical hypnosis and the victims very quickly are left to the Psychiatry.”

    I would think it obvious when religions/cults are using hypnosis. You just have to look at their actions and the result. Ireland and the world had a huge wake-up call recently with what happened in France and, instead of psychiatrists and others who use hypnosis ethically hiding behind closed doors, they should speak out about how it influences and educate, to alert the public to cultic influence and how to avoid them.

    Christiane

    You say: “We have to take the Tantras, the holy scriptures, seriously, both of Lamaism and tantric Hinduism, if we want to offer resistance, And we have to interpret them in an appropriate way because there still are enough religious scientists who as well want to play the Shangrila.”

    Christiane, I understand why you would want to find the antidote; however, I feel we have to work with what we already know rather than waiting on answers that may not be there anyway. If I may take the liberty of saying, BackAtHome is strong in her faith and so am I and this is what we use to get rid of the effects. We do not want to be harmed or harm others and to offer an answer that includes a desperate search, a ritual possibly, needed to undo the influence, may be interpreted as a subtle invitation to return to practicing again.

    I will say, I had to read your comments a second time as, on the first, there was content that read like you were using NLP, using present tense as if it is already part of their reality rather than something to think about.

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  3. Then maybe we do not force our “abilities” on others, who repeatedly made clear they don’t want it, so that they do not need to answer on that level.

    Or would you like me to get into the old writings of god and show why we could as well believe that the tantric/hindu god with its undeniable appetite for women, power, deception, magic and lack of love in reality is one (or several) of the fallen angels? Or that all those false prophets were predicted, a magical system that will make people loose their common sense was predicted, that people will turn against and murder each other was predicted, a global economical system was predicted and even a magical system that will be used to make people believe in the false god was predicted.

    Again, that’s not my line of reasoning, that’s just a reflection of how it is to discuss with people who constantly present their doctrine.

    If I would follow the old writings of god, probably one of the best options would be to avoid contact with the outside world, pray and wait until all those crazies have slaughtered each other.

    Do you think that would be appropriate? If you do not think so, then why should the old tantric teachings be any more appropriate than the old writings of god?

    Reflection, good idea to reflect on that.

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  4. I am shocked, that is all I have to say.

    For the other readers: Should I have translated “in the next time” in a wrong way, I wanted to explain that I meant that in the next years we have to deal with unethical hypnosis in cults and other groups, that’s all.

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  5. More specifically: Which of the players gets the “whatever you do will get back to you” role …

    But still, if you could post the text which describes what is meant by in “Tantrism, the esoteric=tantric Buddhism=Lamaism and in tantric Hinduism, all is allowed” that could be useful.

    Have fun in Hogwarts. I’m back in the UK.

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  6. @Christiane
    I was wondering about the true reason why you are here, right from the beginning. If I am not completely mistaken, your comments contain suggestions to make the reader believe hypnosis works, there is no way to escape hypnosis and we do not have much to resist those Lamaists and tantric Hindu and other magicians. I am not sure, but are you trying to say “they are so powerful and they can do this and that to you and you have no chance so why not give in”?

    Your last paragraph: “… a special form of torture. You can maltreat the subconsciousness in the same way as the body. In the next time we have to learn that unethical hypnosis is able to do such terrible injury.”

    What were you trying to say with these words? That “next time” the reader of your words will experience a torture, a mistreatment of subconsciousness, a terrible injury?

    Above you said, these sciences are working with symbols and ciphers. Sometimes I got the impression, they were playing games, too, for example reflection. Maybe like “I may do whatever I want, but whatever you do will get back to you.” Problem about such games is, which of the players gets which role?

    So – for me it gets too cultish around here, now. As I said, occultists drag you into it that parallel world before you know what is happenning to you. But I still hope to find what I was searching, instead of understanding what I never wanted. Bye, bye.

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  7. Angie

    Yes, I totally agree. Nevertheless I’m surprised that they talk about “drawing out” the child so openly.

    Toni Quinn is “doing his job” with the same background as Lamaism and tantric Hinduism are doing. No feelings, no desires and following no real contact to other human beings. They only talk about “love”, they mean emptiness of feelings in devotion to and concentration on the leaders.

    In this context I remember a story. During my odyssey to healers, doctors, therapists and advisers at the beginning of the abuse when i didn’t know a lot, I also came to a scientist of Catholic Theology. At once I noticed that he also was a Tibetan Buddhist, because there was a nice glass cabinet on his floor, within ritual items of Tibetan Buddhism. The first this therapist said after I had shortly told my story: “First we must do everything empty.” I did not really understand what he was meaning, but I felt that it was not good for me and so he never saw me again.

    Sometimes I think a lot of people don’t know what this term really means.

    For me to “draw out” the child with hypnosis is a special form of torture. You can maltreat the subconsciousness in the same way as the body. In the next time we have to learn that unethical hypnosis is able to do such terrible injury.

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  8. Here the translation of my last comment

    First, I would like to clarify two terms that I use in the following and that I use in another way than they are generally explained.

    1. Esoteric: First for me this is a term without assess which expresses nothing more but his translation means, namely “the inside”. Assign to the esoteric are sciences like Alchemy and Magic. I am aware of using the term science, because these ways involve an enormous high knowledge. They include a concrete knowledge firstly about the nervous system of human beings and the body at all, secondly about the subconsciousness and thirdly about the development of various states of consciousness towards Samadhi, Unio Mystica etc. These sciences are working with symbols and ciphers, why they can’t be understood so readily by the general public.
    2. Magic: Magic, not as individual science but based on any magical practices, for me means “hypnosis”. As Dr. Gresch also has described, we know other states of consciousness as long as there are human beings, and those only are to achieve via hypnosis. Magic is an obsolete term for me. Although part of the “magic” work are other utensils, but the core is hypnosis or the basic idea of self-hypnosis.

    “s it really true, that we can’t speak about less or a loss of volition when the hypnotist/lama/guru goes into Samadhi? Because then it must be that the author of the text you quoted is wrong. (your comment from January 4, 2015 at 11:54 am – Vasant. G. Rele, Mysterious Kundalini, The Physical Basis of the “kundalini (Hatha) Yoga in Terms of Western Anatomy and Physiology, S. 17). “

    As I said, every magic system (later I will return to this term) works at the front with volition. The practice of volition is the first element of every magic work. Toni Quinn doesn’t only set the mind of his students under fog with hypnosis. Wouldn’t he be a person with a strong volition, he never could be accepted so consequently. In the first place it is the volition of the manipulator to draw other persons in dependence, then the other methods follow.
    So I interpret the author in another way. From a certain state of consciousness volition isn’t necessary anymore and can decrease because now the full control is reached and nothing has to be forced by volition. The state replaces per se the volition totally. Worldly conditions, as to want something, in this state are no more relevant. In other words, the volition is integrated in this state of mind.

    “1) You used the terms “state of absorption … it is the end, no more is possible, you are one with all or all is one”
    The first mistake is to assume that what some crazy mystics experience in seclusion is the highest of all. Look at the word “all”. That is like saying I would exactly know what infinity is and every other explanation must be wrong. Don’t you think that is a very extreme viewpoint which can easily lead to dictatorial or totalitarian systems?”

    Of course we shouldn’t take over all without analysis. But on the basic of, both what I have read and my own experiences, we should take these “old sciences” very, very serious, the Yoga literature also belongs to. They are, unfortunately, for us a hardly to understand descriptions of hypnotic procedures and with it of achievement of other states of mind. There is no other way to reach the subconsciousness than by hypnosis. No, what I just have written is not right, there is still Psychoanalysis. That is the reason why such a lot of psychologists and followers of Psychoanalysis go to Tibetan Buddhism. Though I doubt if Psychoanylysis is as effective as a well trained hypnosis.

    Of course, this leads into totalitarian systems when I use hypnosis to control other people. I can only enjoin to you to read the “Trimondis”, as long as there are German copies. The ultimately goal of Tibetan Buddhism is the Adi Buddha, an absolute, androgynous pantokrator, a crazy form of an idea of absolute, infinite, never ending power; in the last instance lead through by elimination of all female beings.

    In a little form we just have these procedures on our business floors. NLP is the secret. Neuro-Linguistic Programming has been developed out of hypnosis after there was a greater knowledge of the two hemispheres. The issue is, do manipulate everybody as far as you can for your own profit. In my opinion this is a dangerous technique of trance in normal life.

    “Of course the believe to be in the posession of the highest truth can lead to the delusion of being allowed to “absorb” any “target” one wants, because it is justified by this highest truth. I pointed to similar problems regarding Nazis, IS and “prophet” Warren Jeff (comment from January 3, 2015 at 11:03 am). Do you have more references describing that “magical system”, it’s intentions, practices and so on? Are they really working with effigies and voodoo stuff like that? Are they really trying to use that “magical system” not only to “absorb targets” but also to control, to do harm to or even to kill persons?”

    There is no delusion but a persuasion that ALL is allowed. These are the esoteric (tantric) doctrines in the black-magic procedures in using the old term, and unethical hypnosis using the newer one.

    There were reasons that above I explained the “Magic”. On this world there are a lot of magic systems; systems having the only goal of reaching other states of consciousness and, if they are working with black Magic, of manipulating other human beings. Yes, they want control and if possible the absolute control. At the beginning of the complete discussion I didn’t say in vain that science urgently has to research intensively in paranormal phenomenons.

    Magical systems for example are the Magic itself, the Alchemy, the Kabbalah, it is the secret science of the Jewish Religion, the Sufism, the esoteric branch of the Islam etc.. They all are working with hypnosis and trance and of course with different rituals according to the culture.
    Because I didn’t lose my belief in human beings it is my opinion that there are people who carry through these old sciences alone for the benefit of other people. They are not to find in groups, cults or special seminars etc., they are loners, friends of human beings.

    “„In my opinion, this all points to hypnosis. I wonder if there is any possibility to prove if a spiritual group in general or especially the group’s leader uses hypnosis.”

    This is the greatest problem at all. As I have written, the science doesn’t know the precise way from the hypnotist into the nervous system of the victim. Add to this the West doesn’t want to deal with unethical hypnosis and the victims very quickly are left to the Psychiatry.

    “Btw. she is a psychologist and she offers groups for energy work or kundalini or so. Well, there are a lot of really “strange” people in Germany’s esoteric circles.”

    I have a serious entreaty, should something similar will happen, go away and please let those people alone. With people working with Kundalini Energy is no joking matter at all. Did she ask you if she was allowed, did she explain what she did and why? We are living in a free country and as less as somebody is allowed to damage you physically, nobody has the right to manipulate your energy system. This is trance working in its worst sense, this is an unbelievable manipulative procedure.

    It is quite possible that this procedure was planned to keep away unpleasant, critical people. First the stress with these two guys arouses the nervous system and the aroused nervous system brings the corresponding suggestibility for hypnotic operations. Should it be that this scenery was installed deliberate, so Tibetan Buddhism is becoming more impertinent in dealing with people thinking differently.

    As for the rest “you are finished” now seems to be the new term for compassion. Sorry, but that makes me a bit angry.

    “It seems they do not understand their own teachings, or … their teachings are not intended for what they tell us they were intended for.”

    In Tantrism, the esoteric=tantric Buddhism=Lamaism and in tantric Hinduism, all is allowed. I would like to search for the text which describes, I also have the English version.

    We have to take the Tantras, the holy scriptures, seriously, both of Lamaism and tantric Hinduism, if we want to offer resistance, And we have to interpret them in an appropriate way because there still are enough religious scientists who as well want to play the Shangrila.

    They believe their own doctrines, they are convinced and from this persuasion and their volition to power they take the right to maltreat other human beings hypnotically. Not at all they don’t understand it as a maltreatment, because they got rid of any feelings.

    You really can understand this when you have experienced this persuasion in the own body; or who is highly awaken and observes their doing very analytically.

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  9. Sorry, one more:

    http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/joe-orso-lama-ole-buddhist-teacher-or-charlatan/article_bc6ed916-d197-11de-85b7-001cc4c002e0.html

    “… his ideas were more confusing than enlightening … his poor performance, which included pounding coffee, taking pills and leaving the stage for a bathroom break. He blamed it on jet lag, although he still found enough energy to join his students at a downtown bar afterwards … claims that he has sexual encounters with his students, he didn’t deny this. ‘There’s no teacher-student relationship involved in that,’ he said by phone. ‘They’re Diamond Way Buddhists, but they’re not my students in that moment. They’re equal partners.’ …”

    Above it was “role of teacher and student”, here it is “teacher-student relationship”. I wonder if they were inspired by similar holy tantric texts?

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  10. The following is a bit off-topic, but still related to tantrism:

    http://nymag.com/news/features/john-friend-yoga-2012-4/ (pages 2 to 7)

    “… Anusara, which is grounded in Tantric philosophy (including its sexual aspects, though these aren’t emphasized), takes these ideas a step further: The fact that this magical spectrum exists at all, Friend says, is evidence of the intrinsic goodness of the universe. And you can never really forget this when you’re around his students, who are truly a positive, happy, shiny ‘merry band.’ … Friend, the nice Texan dude in a Hawaiian shirt, facilitating healing for women with Hallmark-card sayings about opening to grace, melting your heart, and inner smiles … had a sexual affair with a corporate employee, a married Anusara teacher … had established a Wiccan coven with six women, some of whom were Anusara teachers and a few of whom were married, as a way to raise ‘sexual/sensual energy in a positive and sacred way.’ … started dating in the yoga world, just one woman here or there … changed Anusara’s guidelines about sex between students and teachers. A bylaw that used to say that teachers should “avoid sexual relationships with students” now stated that a romantic relationship was permitted, as long as the role of teacher and student was maintained within the classroom … a bit of a weird guy, with his love of magic … The coven wasn’t a sexual thing, but Friend eventually had sex with two of the women, and, according to the High Priestess, there was a ritual … ‘… it was totally consenting on my part. But later, I felt weird about some things. I studied with John for eight years, did hundreds of hours of yoga with him where his voice was the voice that was telling me what to do … Given that relationship, I wonder if it was harder for me to say no than it would have been otherwise,’ says the High Priestess. “Because I wanted to say yes. I wanted to be in the group. I wanted to be in the inner circle.” … activities with women and a scene that increasingly included ravelike parties in California, like a gathering in downtown L.A. during which Friend read erotic poetry … odd rumors of Friend’s secret life … “sex, drugs, and rock-and-roll yoga,” … Friend showed up for practice in L.A. a few hours late, with women in tow, some of whom the host thought were still drunk … Friend was peacocking around the world, talking about ethics while leading a different kind of life … The whole Anusara community was, in essence, a coven, with Friend as the magician, but now the trance was broken … he says. “I have taken Wiccan oaths over the years where death is actually the consequence of telling the truth.” … he’s booked Chichen Itza, one of the Mayans’ most sacred sites, for December 12, 2012 … Friend kneels in front of a Hindu sculpture … a two-and-a-half-foot-tall statue of Kali, the goddess of death …”

    Sounds familiar to me.

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  11. dialogueireland

    Sorry, it was my mistake. I will also translate the text and post it agein.

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  12. Okay, translation of my last comment:

    @Christiane

    First of all: the references could be helpful in the future. So, if it does not cause too much effort …

    As I said, we follow very different perspectives. I have very different viewpoints. Social coexistence is based on respect for the rules to which a society has agreed. Sincerity and honesty are high values, as well as respect for the dignity and freedom of others. The problem is, different people have different intentions. Until now, all this could be settled by secular laws.

    One foundation of modern societies is the separation of church and state. The increasing focus on religion and spirituality now begins to undermine this separation and thus the secular rules. People who see themselves as justified by a religious, spiritual or magical domain more and more obviously and abominably violate limits. Limits which just a few decades ago we clearly recognized just by common sense. There was kind of a consensus about what is allowed and what is not. At present, more and more people seem to lose their bite inhibition.

    Society does not need to care about what groups, cults or sects do in their own communities, as long as no laws are broken and in particular human rights are respected. An example:

    If I have occasional experiences (or suffer from delusions – a question of interpretation) to receive a small encouragement by Christ, or to be supported and protected by (as I understand the christian) God in some situations, or ask the Holy (or as I with my individual limitations sometimes think: healing) Spirit to take some load from me or give me a little more confidence – all this is my business. It can be helpful, if I find other people to share that with, or a risk of a collective delusion (again a question of interpretation). But I should not intentionally harass anyone with this. Mainly because I would be violating an important value of my own faith. And because at the social level I want to have other people granted their own faith, but don’t want to be harassed by them myself.

    Supposed to mean: In public space the rules that allow a peaceful, social coexistence have primacy over the rules of any faith, including the belief in magic. Under such circumstances, different beliefs can be peacefully presented, discussed and respected. The public and that is also publicly accessible events may not be misused for secret proselytizing, manipulation or conversions due to pressure or even fraud.

    Misuse of power, that is also misuse of magical powers, hypnotic abilities, etc., leads to conflict. Increasing numbers of victims intensify conflicts. If not stopped in time such conflicts degenerate into (in this case supposedly “holy”) wars.

    And that, I am convinced of this, is what lies behind us since many centuries and what we do not want again.

    We need neither black nor white magic, because the problem of any magic is it’s manipulative character. What we really need are rational people who value a mutually respectful coexistence higher than the struggle to acquire any dominant position, which always will be of temporary nature only, anyway.

    3. Moses 19:18: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
    Matthew 22:39: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
    Buddha Eightfold Path: … no resentment, no anger and no revenge … take no life … not do anything that might harm others …

    Let’s assume based on my belief I want to do something “for” another person of another faith. But I can not know if that other person will experience my action as damaging to herself/himself respectively her/his faith. Then I better not do it. If there is actually only one God, then we will get along better with each other when we are with him. And if there are different gods, at least we have tried to follow our own commandments a little bit more.

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  13. There is no point in two Germans trying to communicate in English. My suggestion to both of you is after you have posted make a reply and put in the Google translate English version. I understand some German and I can check the rest in English.

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  14. @DialogueIreland

    I am answering in german language. But this could turn into a german language discussion. If we should return to english language, please say so.

    @Christiane

    Vorweg: die Quellenangaben könnten zukünftig einmal hilfreich sein. Wenn es also nicht zuviel Mühe macht …

    Wie gesagt, wir gehen sehr verschiedene Wege. Ich sehe vieles sehr anders. Gesellschaftliches Zusammenleben basiert auf der Einhaltung von Regeln, auf die sich eine Gesellschaft geeinigt hat. Aufrichtigkeit und Ehrlichkeit sind ein hohes Gut, ebenso wie die Achtung vor der Würde und der Freiheit Anderer. Schwierig daran ist, dass verschiedene Menschen verschiedene Absichten haben. All dieses ließ sich bisher mit weltlichen Gesetzen regeln.

    Ein Grundpfeiler moderner Gesellschaften ist die Trennung von Staat und Kirche. Die zunehmende Fokussierung auf Religion und Spiritualität beginnt nun diese Trennung und damit die weltlichen Regeln zu unterlaufen. Menschen, die sich als aus religiösen, spirituellen oder magischen Bereichen gerechtfertigt sehen, überschreiten auf immer offensichtlichere und zugleich abscheulichere Arten und Weisen die Grenzen, die uns noch vor wenigen Jahrzehnten der gesunde Menschenverstand klar erkennen ließ. Es gab einigermaßen Konsens darüber was erlaubt ist und was nicht. Gegenwärtig scheinen immer mehr Menschen ihre Beißhemmung zu verlieren.

    Was Gruppen, Kulte oder Sekten in ihren eigenen Kreisen treiben, muss die Gesellschaft nicht interessieren, sofern keine Gesetze gebrochen werden und insbesondere Menschenrechte beachtet werden. Ein Beispiel:

    Ob ich gelegentlich Erfahrungen habe (oder aber unter entsprechenden Einbildungen leide – das ist eine Frage der Interpretation) einen leichten Zuspruch durch Christus zu erhalten, oder durch (den nach meinem Verständnis christlichen) Gott in manchen Situationen gestützt und beschützt zu sein, oder ich den Heiligen (oder wie ich ihn mir manchmal in meiner individuellen Beschränktheit denke: den heilenden) Geist bitte, etwas Last von mir zu nehmen oder mir etwas mehr Zuversicht zu geben – all das ist meine Angelegenheit. Finde ich andere Menschen, mit denen ich das teilen kann, so ist das vielleicht förderlich oder aber es besteht die Gefahr einer kollektiven Wahnvorstellung (erneut eine Frage der Interpretation). Vorsätzlich belästigen sollte ich damit aber möglichst niemanden. Dieses hauptsächlich deswegen, weil ich damit einen wichtigen Wert meines eigenen Glaubens verletzen würde. Und außerdem möchte ich auf gesellschaftlicher Ebene zwar auch Andersgläubigen ihren Glauben zugestehen, von diesen aber nicht belästigt werden.

    Soll heißen: Im öffentlichen Raum haben nicht die Regeln des Glaubens, und das heißt auch des Glaubens an Magie o.ä., Vorrang, sondern ausschließlich die Regeln, die ein friedliches, geselschaftliches Miteinander ermöglichen. Unter solchen Voraussetzungen können unterschiedliche Glaubensvorstellungen in Ruhe dargestellt, diskutiert und respektiert werden. Die Öffentlichkeit und das heißt auch öffentlich zugängliche Veranstaltungen dürfen nicht für versteckte Missionierungen, Manipulationen oder gar erzwungene oder ertrickste Konvertierungen missbraucht werden.

    Machtmissbrauch, das heißt auch Missbrauch magischer Kräfte, hypnotischer Fähigkeiten usw., führt zu Konflikten. Steigende Opferzahlen verschärfen die Konflikte und wenn man nicht rechtzeitig damit aufhört, arten Konflikte in (in diesem Fall vermeintlich “heilige”) Kriege aus.

    Und das, so meine ich, haben wir eben doch seit vielen Jahrhunderten hinter uns und brauchen es nicht mehr.

    Wir brauchen weder schwarze noch weiße Magie, denn das Problem jedweder Magie ist ihre manipulative Anwendung. Was wir wirklich brauchen sind vernunftbegabte Menschen, die ein wechselseitig respektvolles Miteinander höher schätzen, als das Erkämpfen irgendwelcher ohnehin stets nur vorrübergehender Vormachtstellungen.

    3. Mose 19,18: Du sollst deinen Nächsten lieben wie dich selbst.
    Matthäus 22,39: Du sollst deinen Nächsten lieben wie dich selbst.
    Buddha, Achtfacher Pfad: … keinen Groll, keine Wut und keine Rache … kein Leben nehmen … nichts tun, was einem anderen schaden könnte …

    Wenn ich also nicht weiß, ob das was ich aufgrund meines Glaubens an einer/einem Andersgläubigen tun möchte, von dieser/diesem als für sie/ihn schadhaft empfunden wird, dann sollte ich es besser nicht tun. Wenn es dann tatsächlich nur den einen Gott gibt, dann werden wir besser miteinander auskommen, wenn wir bei ihm sind. Und wenn es doch verschiedene sind, haben wir zumindest ein bischen mehr unsere eigenen Gebote beachtet.

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  15. BackAtHome

    Zunächst möchte ich zwei Begriffe klären, die ich anders benutze als sie allgemein erklärt werden.

    1. Esoterik: Dies ist für mich zunächst ein wertfreier Begriff, der nichts anderes aussagt, als seine Übersetzung bedeutet, nämlich „das Innere“. Der Esoterik zuzuordnen sind Wissenschaften wie Alchemie und Magie. Ich benutze bewusst den Begriff Wissenschaften, da diese Wege ein enorm hohes Wissen beinhalten. Sie beinhalten ein konkretes Wissen erstens über das Nervensystem des Menschen, zweitens über sein Unterbewusstsein und drittens über die Entwicklung verschiedener Bewusstseinzustände hin zum Samadhi, der Unio Mystica etc. Diese Wissenschaften arbeiten mit Symbolik und Verschlüsselungen, weshalb sie von der Allgemeinheit nicht so ohne weiteres zu verstehen sind.
    2. Magie: Magie, nicht als einzelne Wissenschaft, sondern bezogen auf jegliche magischen Vorgehensweisen, bedeutet für mich „Hypnose“. Wie Dr. Gresch auch beschrieben hat, man kennt andere Bewusstseinszustände solange es die Menschheit gibt, und diese sind nun mal nur über Hypnose zu erreichen. Magie ist für mich ein veralteter Begriff. Zwar gehören zur “magischen” Arbeit noch andere Utensilien, aber der Kern ist Hypnose, bzw. von der Grundidee her Selbsthypnose.

    s it really true, that we can’t speak about less or a loss of volition when the hypnotist/lama/guru goes into Samadhi? Because then it must be that the author of the text you quoted is wrong. (your comment from January 4, 2015 at 11:54 am – Vasant. G. Rele, Mysterious Kundalini, The Physical Basis of the “kundalini (Hatha) Yoga in Terms of Western Anatomy and Physiology, S. 17).

    Wie gesagt, jedes magische System (ich komme darauf später noch einmal zurück) arbeitet an vorderster Front mit der Willensstärke. Die Willensschulung ist erstes Element jeder magischen Arbeit. Tony Quinn vernebelt seinen Seminarteilnehmern nicht nur den Verstand durch Hypnose. Wäre er nicht eine Person mit einem starken Willen, könnte er sich nicht so konsequent durchsetzen und immer wieder Menschen anziehen. Es ist in erster Linie der Wille des Manipulators, andere Menschen in Abhängigkeit zu bringen, erst dann kommen seine Mittel.
    So interpretiere ich den Autor etwas anders und zwar dahingehend, dass ab einem gewissen Bewusstseinszustand der Wille nicht mehr erforderlich ist und nachgelassen werden kann, da jetzt die volle Kontrolle erreicht ist und nichts mehr durch die Willensstärke forciert werden muss. Der Zustand ersetzt per se ersetzt die Willensstärke voll und ganz. Weltliche Bedingungen, nämlich etwas zu wollen, sind in diesem Zustand nicht mehr relevant.

    1) You used the terms “state of absorption … it is the end, no more is possible, you are one with all or all is one”
    The first mistake is to assume that what some crazy mystics experience in seclusion is the highest of all. Look at the word “all”. That is like saying I would exactly know what infinity is and every other explanation must be wrong. Don’t you think that is a very extreme viewpoint which can easily lead to dictatorial or totalitarian systems?

    Natürlich sollten wir nicht ohne Analyse alles übernehmen. Aber, sowohl aufgrund dessen was ich gelesen habe, als auch aufgrund meiner eigenen Erfahrungen, sollten wir die „alten Wissenschaften“, da gehört auch Yogaliteratur zu, sehr, sehr ernst nehmen. Sie sind u.a. eine für uns leider kaum zu verstehende Beschreibung hypnotischer Vorgehensweisen und damit des Erreichens anderer Bewusstseinszustände. Es gibt keinen anderen Weg, als über Hypnose das Unterbewusstsein zu erreichen. Nein das stimmt nicht, was ich gerade geschrieben habe, da gibt es noch die Psychoanalyse. Deswegen laufen auch so viele Psychologen und Anhänger der Psychoanalyse zum tibetischen Buddhismus oder tantrischen Hinduismus. Allerdings bezweifle ich, dass die Psychoanalyse so effektiv ist, wie eine gut erlernte Hypnose.

    Natürlich führt das in totalitäre Systeme, wenn ich die Hypnose dazu nutze, andere Menschen zu kontrollieren. Ich kann Ihnen nur ans Herz legen, lesen Sie die „Trimondis“, solange noch deutsche Exemplare da sind. Das letztendliche Ziel des tibetischen Buddhismus ist der Adi Buddha, der absolute androgyne Weltenherrscher. Eine irrsinnige Vorstellung über die absolute, unendliche, nie endende Macht; in letzter Instanz durchgeführt durch die Elimination alles Weiblichen.

    Im Kleinen haben wir diese Vorgehensweisen bereits in unseren Buisiness Etagen. NLP ist das Geheimnis. Neurolinguistisches Programmieren ist aus der Hypnose entwickelt worden, nachdem man mehr über die beiden Gehirnhälften wusste. Das Thema ist, manipuliere jeden soweit du kannst für deinen eigenen Profit. Ich persönlich halte dies für eine gefährliche Trancetechnik im allgemeinen Leben.

    Of course the believe to be in the posession of the highest truth can lead to the delusion of being allowed to “absorb” any “target” one wants, because it is justified by this highest truth. I pointed to similar problems regarding Nazis, IS and “prophet” Warren Jeff (comment from January 3, 2015 at 11:03 am). Do you have more references describing that “magical system”, it’s intentions, practices and so on? Are they really working with effigies and voodoo stuff like that? Are they really trying to use that “magical system” not only to “absorb targets” but also to control, to do harm to or even to kill persons?

    Es handelt sich nicht um eine Täuschung (delusion), sondern um eine Überzeugung, dass ALLES erlaubt ist. Das sind die esoterischen (tantrischen) Doktrin in den schwarz-magischen Vorgehensweisen, um den alten Begriff zu gebrauchen, der unethischen Hypnose, wenn wir den neueren Begriff benutzen.

    Es hatte Gründe, dass ich oben den Begriff Magie erklärt habe. Es gibt auf dieser Welt viele magische Systeme, also Systeme, deren Ziel es ist, andere Bewusstseinszustände zu erreichen und, wenn sie schwarz-magisch arbeiten, andere Menschen zu manipulieren. Ja, sie wollen Kontrolle und wenn möglich, die absolute. Ich habe zu Anfang der gesamten Diskussion nicht umsonst gesagt, dass die Wissenschaft sich dringend intensiv mit paranormalen Phänomenen beschäftigen muss.
    Magische Systeme sind z.B. die Magie selbst, die Alchemie, die Kabbalah, sie ist die Geheimlehre des Judentums, der Sufismus, der esoterische Zweig des Islam, und es gibt viele mehr. Sie alle arbeiten mit Hypnose und natürlich verschiedenster Ritualistik, je nach Kultur.
    Da ich aber trotz allem den Glauben an die Menschheit noch nicht verloren habe, ist meine Meinung, dass es durchaus noch Menschen gibt, die diese alten Wissenschaften für ihr eigenes und zum Wohl anderer Menschen durchführen. Diese befinden sich nicht in Gruppen, Kulten, Seminaren etc. Es sind Einzelgänger, Menschenfreunde.

    In my opinion, this all points to hypnosis. I wonder if there is any possibility to prove if a spiritual group in general or especially the group’s leader uses hypnosis.

    Das ist das größte Problem überhaupt. Wie ich schon einmal geschrieben habe, die Wissenschaft kennt nicht den genauen Weg vom Hypnotiseur ins Nervensystem des Opfers. Hinzu kommt, dass der Westen mit unethischer Hypnose nichts zu tun haben will und die Opfer sehr schnell der Psychiatrie anheim gestellt werden.

    Btw. she is a psychologist and she offers groups for energy work or kundalini or so. Well, there are a lot of really “strange” people in Germany’s esoteric circles.

    Ich habe eine ernsthafte Bitte, sollte Ihnen Ähnliches noch einmal passieren, gehen sie weg und lassen Sie bitte solche Menschen stehen. Mit Menschen, die mit Kundalini Energie arbeiten ist überhaupt nicht zu spaßen. Hat sie Sie gefragt, ob sie das darf, hat sie Ihnen erklärt, was sie macht und warum? Wir leben in einem freien Land und genau so wenig wie jemand Sie körperlich verletzen darf, hat jemand das Recht, an Ihrem Energiesystem herum zu manipulieren. Das ist Trancearbeit im schlechtesten Sinn, das ist unglaubliches manipulatives Vorgehen.

    Es ist durchaus möglich, dass dieses Vorgehen geplant ist, um unliebsame, kritische Menschen fern zu halten. Erst der Stress mit den beiden Männern, das bringt das Nervensystem hoch und ein gereiztes Nervensystem liefert die entsprechende Suggestibilität für hypnotische Operationen. Sollte dies so sein, dass dieses Szenario bewusst installiert ist, dann wird der tibetische Buddhismus immer dreister im Umgang mit Andersdenkenden.

    Im Übrigen scheint „you are finished“ jetzt der neue Begriff für „compassion“ zu sein. Entschuldigung, aber in mir kocht eine leichte Wut.

    It seems they do not understand their own teachings, or … their teachings are not intended for what they tell us they were intended for.

    Im Tantrismus, also dem esoterischen= tantrischen Buddhismus=Lamaismus und im tantrischem Hinduismus ist alles erlaubt. Ich suche gerne die Textstelle heraus, die das beschreibt, ich habe sie auch in englischer Version.
    Wir müssen die Tantras, die heiligen Schriften, sowohl des Lamaismus als auch des tantrischen Hinduismus ernst nehmen, wenn wir ihnen etwas entgegensetzen wollen. Und wir müssen sie entsprechend interpretieren, da es immer noch genügend Religionswissenschaftler gibt, die uns ebenfalls Shangrila vorspielen wollen. Sie glauben ihre eigenen Lehren, sie sind feste von ihnen überzeugt und aus dieser Überzeugung heraus und ihrem Willen zur Macht, nehmen sie sich das Recht, andere Menschen hypnotisch zu misshandeln. Sie verstehen es gar nicht als Misshandlung, da sie sich jeglicher Gefühle entledigt haben.

    Wirklich verstehen tut man dies erst, wenn man diese Überzeugung am eigenen Leib verspürt hat; oder wer hellwach und sehr analytisch ihr Tun beobachtet.

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  16. Christiane

    “It is the feeling of arriving, the feeling of beeing home. And that is dangerous because these are our deep child’s feelings everybody wants to hold. When they are touched, hypnosis works like a machine.”

    Exactly, in Educo they talk about ‘drawing out’ the child and I will add the feeling of being accepted and a belief in achieving potential. It all sounds very appealing and one can get too comfortable in the trance state (which was encouraged, understood by the person to be a higher state) that actually interferes with the cognitive process of making personal decisions; the ‘guru’ will influence to control and many were led to ‘choose’ precarious ways of earning a living in service to Quinn.

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  17. Is it really true, that we can’t speak about less or a loss of volition when the hypnotist/lama/guru goes into Samadhi? Because then it must be that the author of the text you quoted is wrong. (your comment from January 4, 2015 at 11:54 am – Vasant. G. Rele, Mysterious Kundalini, The Physical Basis of the “kundalini (Hatha) Yoga in Terms of Western Anatomy and Physiology, S. 17).

    A lot of your last comment offers more valuable information, assuming the given information is reliable. I just want to point out some key points of what I find to be ultimately sick and perverted in Tibetan/Buddhism/Hinduism and why it is time for the rest of the world to understand what they do:

    1) You used the terms “state of absorption … it is the end, no more is possible, you are one with all or all is one”

    The first mistake is to assume that what some crazy mystics experience in seclusion is the highest of all. Look at the word “all”. That is like saying I would exactly know what infinity is and every other explanation must be wrong. Don’t you think that is a very extreme viewpoint which can easily lead to dictatorial or totalitarian systems?

    2) You used the terms “magical system”, “to fix the target” (which then shall flow into absorption)

    Of course the believe to be in the posession of the highest truth can lead to the delusion of being allowed to “absorb” any “target” one wants, because it is justified by this highest truth. I pointed to similar problems regarding Nazis, IS and “prophet” Warren Jeff (comment from January 3, 2015 at 11:03 am). Do you have more references describing that “magical system”, it’s intentions, practices and so on? Are they really working with effigies and voodoo stuff like that? Are they really trying to use that “magical system” not only to “absorb targets” but also to control, to do harm to or even to kill persons?

    3) You used the terms “preach love” (=less volition), “give feelings of trust” (=less volition), “deep admiration of the leader” (=less resistance/volition against the leader), “something intellectual you can think about” (=invoking curiosity=less resistance against what they tell you) and then “spiritual groups working with hypnosis”.

    In my opinion, this all points to hypnosis. I wonder if there is any possibility to prove if a spiritual group in general or especially the group’s leader uses hypnosis. For example, I experienced a “bad cop, good cop” situation at the last event. A somewhat big guy backed up by a buddy came out and tried to bully me “you are finished” etc. (I have read about such kind of bullying in context of buddhist groups and experienced it myself two times so far). Immediately after they left, a woman watching the situation began a conversation. She was much quieter, but somehow very energetic or focused, not a part of the group, just accompanying a friend, who was inside, she said. She was skillful in creating a trusting situation. But after a while she began the usual, yeah, that’s what the teacher of that group says, too, and also he says bla-bla-bla … I got the impression, she was trying to indoctrinate me or even to pull me into that group. Then there was one situation in which, that’s my interpretation, she tried some kind of energetic manipulation or so. It was as if she was creating a ball of violet or pink light around my head with her hands. Btw. she is a psychologist and she offers groups for energy work or kundalini or so. Well, there are a lot of really “strange” people in Germany’s esoteric circles. Not much of the simply human peace,love and freedom approach left.

    I write about it, because Mr. Gresch writes “… a series of conditions … for example … a phase of relative peace following extreme stress …” (im Original: “… eine Reihe von Voraussetzungen … beispielsweise … eine Phase relativer Ruhe nach extremem Stress”). Is it possible that the situation described above was one of those planned and orchestrated events (see Point 2 Mystical Manipulation)?

    4) You used the terms “… state of absorption … you needn’t volition anymore … you are one with all or all is one …” (third paragraph of your comment) and “… Samadhi is outside any feelings … as “normal” people know … they tell us our ‘little love’ on earth has nothing to do with this ‘entire love’ … there is no rating, there is no right or wrong, no lie and no truth. That is the non-duality. If you misuse others in this state in form of ‘absorption’ it is not wrong. Beyond in ‘Tantrism’ ALL is allowed …” (end of your comment)

    Who decides whether I need volition or not? Who owns the absolute truth to know that our love on earth is “little” while their imaginary love is “entire”? And if there is no rating, no right and wrong, why are they constantly downgrading our “small” love and what else we are here on earth, while nothing is as “entire” or most “precious” as their teaching or teachers? It seems they do not understand their own teachings, or … their teachings are not intended for what they tell us they were intended for.

    You said it yourself: In the “material world … other laws … apply”. Is it not obvious that the ideology of Samadhi and the idea of giving yourself to a higher ONE without will, and that means with less or no control of not only what is happening to you, but also what you yourself are doing, opens every possibility for unlwaful conducts?

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  18. dialogueireland

    Thank you very much for this possibility!

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  19. Your English is excellent Christiane, but if you are teying to reply to back at home do it in German as it is his first language.

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  20. First I want to say I’m very sorry and I didn’t want to spread wrong informations about other commentators. That is not my intention on this website and I ask BackAtHome to excuse.

    If I remember right what Dr. Gresch has written he writes about the Hypnotisand (I can’t find an English expression) and not the hypnotist when he writes about a loss or less volition. When we look at Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Hinduism of course the students have less or perhaps even a loss of violation. The hypnotist, the lama/guru, can manage his self-hypnosis. So we can’t speak about less or a loss of volition when he goes into Samadhi.

    When Lamas/Gurus go into Samadhi they go in self hypnosis and in my opinion that is impossible without volition, because during this training they have to go different difficult steps. The first training in every magical system is to develop volition and to fix the target, what at the end of the operation flows into the state of “absorption”. I explained this term. In this state you needn’t volition anymore, it is the end, no more is possible, you are one with all or all is one.

    I have some problems with the attempted hypnosis.
    First for me there is a difference of the situation. If I go to a therapist and clearly say I want a hypnosis setting I KNOW what I’m doing. The therapist explains the procedure and I can decide to stay or to go. If I go to Tibetan Buddhism or tantric Hinduism I don’t know anything about hypnosis. I know I can learn meditation, spirituality, I can reach my subconsciousness and purify it from my desires and transform them into love and compassion.
    So there is to clarify if I know the attempted hypnosis or not.

    They do not only preach love, that is a part of every spiritual community, they do much more. They give you the feelings you can trust them, the feelings of a deep admiration of the leader, they give you something nobody else is able to give you. Specially in Tibetan Buddhism you learn the Dharma (the doctrine). They give you something inellectual you can think about. That is the best breeding ground to place suggestions. Some notice it and stay away, they with the higher volition. This atmosphere binds very quickly. You have read Dr. Gresch’s description of the hypnotical atmosphere in the Salpêtière in Paris? He writes that there was a highly suggestible atmosphere and a milieu in which hypnosis was dayly. A similar situation is in spiritual groups working with hypnosis.

    “Apart from Samadhi, would you agree that love is another state in which human beings have less volition and weak resistance? Maybe in such groups, preaching love is done to have people invoke a state in them, in which it is easier to place hypnotic programs.”

    Absolutely right, I see it in the same way. But for me love is a unspecific word. I think it is much more. It is the feeling of arriving, the feeling of beeing home. And that is dangerous because these are our deep child’s feelings everybody wants to hold. When they are touched, hypnosis works like a machine.

    “So what now, Christiane already pointed out that Samadhi is not love. But still, is love evil? Or are the ones who misuse love for their own purposes?”

    As I said above, Samadhi is outside any feelings. In the Samadhi the senses and the nervous system are “under control”, they are not needed. So you have no feelings as “normal” people know. That is the reason why they always tell us our “little love” on earth has nothing to do with this “entire love”.
    In special trance states I felt a little bit of that they are telling about. It has nothing to do with love to a person, to the earth or to a special work. That is why there is no rating, there is no right or wrong, no lie and no truth. That is the non-duality. If you misuse others in this state in form of “absorption” it is not wrong. Beyond in “Tantrism” ALL is allowed.

    BUT they also are material human beings in a material world where other laws are apply.

    So they are ones who misuse OUR love for their own purpose. That’s right.

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  21. One more hypothesis: I always wondered why one of the first lessons you hear in some groups is about love and why then open-hearted people with truely the best intentions experience almost the opposite in such groups. Now I look at above:

    “Whether someone can resist an attempted hypnosis … is a question of volition; volition is known as being variable and there are human beings with extremely weak resistance.”.

    Apart from Samadhi, would you agree that love is another state in which human beings have less volition and weak resistance? Maybe in such groups, preaching love is done to have people invoke a state in them, in which it is easier to place hypnotic programs.

    This may also be an explanation, why some Christians are so carelessly confident about tantric teachings.

    So what now, Christiane already pointed out that Samadhi is not love. But still, is love evil? Or are the ones who misuse love for their own purposes?

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  22. I want to make clear, I am not “busy to do something against his (Mr. Nydahl’s) ‘activities'”. I want the public to be more objectively informed, including reports about experiences of people in various buddhist groups. This is not about Mr. Nydahl. And I want to express my personal opinion: Mr. Nydahl is not the center of the universe, nor is his organization, nor are his beliefs.

    Thank you for your trust and offering private communication. But we follow very different perspectives. I think it would not be a healthy idea for either of us. Please do not take this personal or if, then as a sign for my need of caring for myself.

    Thank you, too, for the links, which I would recommend to non-german readers, too. For example from the first link:

    “Ob sich jemand einem Hypnoseversuch widersetzen könne… sei eine Frage der Willenskraft; die Willenskraft sei bekanntlich variabel und es gebe Menschen mit extrem schwach ausgeprägter Widerstandsfähigkeit.”

    Translation:

    “Whether someone can resist an attempted hypnosis … is a question of volition; volition is known as being variable and there are human beings with extremely weak resistance.”

    Now let’s bring two puzzle pieces together: Christiane, on January 4, 2015 at 11:54 am said:

    “… Samadhi … super-consciousness … either with retention of self volition … or with loss of volition …”

    To me that looks like Samadhi=minimum volition=minimum resistance against attempted hypnosis.

    I know, people pointed to this before – here it is backed-up by statements of a renowned psychologist. Furthermore, if what Dr. Gresch writes is true, hypnosis offers a toolset for controlling people and the relationships between people.

    And here is a publicly accessible book (sorry, only german language): http://www.orwell-staat.de/cms/files/mindcontrol.pdf.

    Yes, we all need to be careful. What I am experiencing these days is almost the same as what began to happen eight years ago and climaxed after the first flyers around 2011 to 2012. They are flexing their muscles, but they haven’t learned any new tricks. The only difference this time is, someone is watching right from the beginning. And they are making one mistake after another.

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  23. I found the church blog on Wikipedia and, from the little I have read of the articles from members of the church that are based on comparing religions; one of them included ‘merits’ of Hinduism. Members are free to choose what direction they take in their ‘spiritual’ experience, blending the ‘old’ traditions in the attempt to create something ‘new’, an alternative to Christian beliefs as they are accepted now.

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  24. Here is the next link. In this Dr. Gresch explains why research in hypnosis today is so difficult and why we have to look at the old hypnotists, because they could do unethical hypnosis.

    http://lexikon.ppsk.de/sichtweisen/tiefenpsychologie/hypnose/

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  25. BackAtHome

    This article is from Dr. Gresch. He is the only psychologist I know who deals with unethical hypnosis and who knows a lot about it. But in this post he gives a survey of the historical development. I think it is quite interesting.

    http://lexikon.ppsk.de/lexikon/geschichte/das-hypnotische-theater/

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  26. If ‘I consider the Last comments I think there could be much more than “only” interferences. As I told I saw this tantric Hindu German only one time for two hours. Today I know that at the beginning of that meeting he was in trance. I have no idea which suggestions he could have set. But I remember a sentence he wrote: “Last night I have worked until five clock in the morning.” In those days I thought he had worked for his job, later I knew he meant his “medititation-work” because the informations came more and more in different ways. So I am quite sure they meditate during their victims are sleeping and go in contact with them.This would be one part of the Siddhis.

    BackAtHome

    I don’t know your experiences with Nydahl, I only know that you are busy to do something against his “activities”.
    What Angie has written, if you have suggestions in the subconsciousness they come in the consciousness in special situation. That means, the “psychic parasite” becomes activ more and more. In this time you describe the sensations, you prepared the flyers and made plans. Dr. v. Lukadou from the information center for Parapsychology in Freiburg calls it “attention energy” “Aufmerksamkeitsenergie”. If you deal a lot with these things the activity in the nervous system becomes big and bigger. Not to sleep is the first symptom of a Kundalini rising. Be careful!

    If you want we can write privately. Give Dialogueireland your adress to pass on to me.

    And now I surch for the articles about hypnosis.

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  27. Thank you for information. I will look up Wikipedia and see what I can find.

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  28. Thank you Christiane.

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  29. dialogueireland

    Thank you for support

    Angie

    No, on the first look I can’t find it on Dialogueireland. As I have written, I was very surprised, but later it was clearer for me

    Im just writing to Dialogueireland and you receive the information as fast as I can.

    BackAtHome

    I didn’t forget you. I still have to say something to your last comment.

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  30. Christiane

    Thank you for the Trimondi link. I have read some of it before, however, my head is clearer now than it was then and it answers a question I had asked previously on Dialogue that no-one picked up on.

    Regarding the woman you comment about, is the cult she was in listed on Dialogue?

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  31. I would be happy to pass on the information for you Christiane

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  32. Such an interesting answer! “… woke up in the night with (some kind of sensation) … couldn’t sleep anymore. After one hour it stopped and at once I slept again …” I just had that this night again, same as two nights before. And at least about the last two weeks of december.

    “the plague of the 21. century” – yes, and it is spreading fast. The idea that the connection between follower and master shows certain parallels to addictive behaviour is not new. Real addiction is not a psychological problem, but a sickness.

    People who think they have extracted themselves from a cult still repeat the names of their former idols like a mantra and spent too much of their attention on the cult – or on reliving the experiences they had in the cult. That’s what an addict does, too. Focus a lot on the source of his or her addiction again and again.

    The only way to overcome an infectious disease is to stay away from reinfection. (Please take care – doctors, psychologists and the like may already be infected themselves.)

    Go for it or stay in the occult – your choice.

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  33. Here is the link to the Trimondi site.

    http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-1-11.htm

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  34. Angie

    Yes, what Quinn is doing is the same what the lamas and gurus are doing. And I also know that people out of sects practice these techniques. I don’t know where Quinn has learnt his dirty trade, but in the meantime I know, that these men (most of them are men) don’t need the philosophical background of the East, but they need its knowledge of using hypnosis. And I think Tibetan Buddhism and tantric Hinduism have the best knowledge. But I’m also convinced of secrets only given to certain persons who never will speak it out. In the Eastern sect there is spoken of secret initiations. Since a long time I’m thinking these techniques are an Eldorado for psychopaths all over the world. Wenn we see the Tibetan Lama Ole Nydahl or the German tantric Hindu who recruited me, we must fear that more and more Western people are interested and practicing without any consideration. When I see a Western lama (born in Europe or America) I don’t believe any word. They all know what they are doing and they do it with a Western creation, a Western philosophy and the Western knowledge of freedom and democracy and they don’t care about. It is becoming the plague of the 21. century.

    “From my experience, I know about interference by the ‘guru’ on an energy level while sleeping.”
    Today I know that too. When I was in the mailing contact with this man sometimes I suddenly woke up in the night with an electric whirl in the middle of my spine. I couldn’t sleep anymore. After one hour it stoped and at once I slept again. Today I know during sleeping he tried to open my Kundali Energy and set suggestions. I felt and I knew that there was something wrong with the contact to this man, but I didn’t stop it.
    But that is only one way to contact the victim. When the victim has an opened Kundalini there also can be interference when he is awaken because, as I have told in another comment, then the victim always is in trance and it is a child’s play for the manipulator to deep this trance state.

    They all are addicted to sexuality and there is no difference between Toni Quinn, Sogyal Rinpoche and other lamas or gurus. If we read June Campbell we know what Kalu Rinpoche sen. has done. I just see, we come from one subject to the next, but I try it very shortly because it is important.
    That all is not only sex abuse as we call it in the West. Sexuality is the shortest way to open the Kundalini Energy. That’s why it is also called sexual magic. So the lama/guru is able to reach very quickly the energetic system and specially the 2. Chakra of the female victim. Sexuality leads for everybody in a trance state and so the lama/guru can manipulate, set suggestions and post hypnotic orders during sexuality. Their focus (absorption) is on the womb and on the ovaries. From June Cambell we know that there is no love – there is only technique for the enrichement in the energetic area.

    Love, or what the victims think it is love, induced by suggestions, is a part of the magic (hypnotical) enrgetic theater. If you are interested, the Trimondis have something written they call “The manipulation of the eros”. Already Giordano Bruno has known that all magic is connected with the eros.

    I ask for your understanding, but I don’t name the sect which abused the woman in public. I only speak about me and my experiences and my knowledge, But may I offer a suggestion: Dialogueireland gives me your e-mail adress, or gives you mine, that is no problem, and I write you the sect if you keep it privately. And I will ask the woman if she is ready to write with you. I don’t know concret readings, but I know there is a lot. I was very surprised when I heard the name.

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  35. @Christiane
    Thanks, yes please if you can provide some links.

    It is a subect with many facets. It is impossible to analyze it in a few sentences.

    Loading the language (point 6) is defined as interpreting words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. Words in a language of a culture A have a defined meaning to listeners of culture A. If such words are used to describe religious or philosophical concepts of a culture B, but these foreign concepts are not what the words mean to listeners of culture A, then in my opinion that is loading the language.

    For example, it took me some years to understand that when buddhists or hindu use words like “god”, “soul”, “love”, “mind”, “consciousness” and so on, they probably are not talking about what westerners would use these words for.

    I do agree, probably in all cultures of the world people had experiences of unity. But I do not agree that all cultures in all times wanted to reach a certain state of mind. First of all, because experiences of unity are not restricted to the mind only. As you said, Samadhi or enlightenment has nothing to do with love, with compassion, with ethical behavior. But my understanding is, that unity has many different aspects, and love, compassion and the motivation for ethical behaviour are some of them. And if(!?) that is so, then samadhi or enlightenment are no complete unity.

    There is another question: Is unity a value in itself? Unity with what? That is what I wanted to point to with “in an environment in which free will is necessary to resist temptations”. If eastern beliefs avoid duality, that is separation, then unity results from that. But that only is possible, if making no more distinction between “right” or “wrong”, “good” or “bad” and so on. I am not commenting this on a religious level – who does really know(!) about that? But if I look at the worldly reality we live in, this concept of an unconditional unity may be a high ideal, but it is not possible. It fails. Wannabe wise men should know that.

    On the philosophical level, there is another question: If duality or separation has to be avoided, then how are we allowed to separate ourselves from separation? For some people that may be a point to understand, that there is a lot of useless bla-bla-bla out there. If, as some buddhists say, it is as it is, then what for do we need a master or lama?

    I wonder about the possible intention behind teaching unconditional unity, focused so entirely on the mind. Is it possible, that the true intention is to separate people from all the different varieties of unity they can have naturally for free and without the need of a “master”? For example a sunset, a nice melody, a piece of art, meeting some nice regular people without any need for esoterism, comprehending a tricky problem, offering help to someone?

    Sometimes I think there’s more of what we hope to find in that, than in all the “teachings” about how to achieve what we hope to find.

    (If our conclusion regarding the above question is, that this focussing on unity and mind is to install a system of control, then we make the connection back to the title of this thread.)

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  36. From my experience, I know about interference by the ‘guru’ on an energy level while sleeping. I also know about the interference of the dream state; making suggestions that the dreamer may or may not remember when they come out of the sleep/trance state, seeing the ‘guru’ image fade away as they wake up and “feeling better than they ever had before” being Quinn’s mind programme. I also know that he used this state to frighten followers into submission and to fear speaking out against him.

    You say: “The women whose Kundalini is opened by a Western sect told me:” They all know how to open Kundalini, but they don’t know how to treat it.” I’m sure the Lamas and Gurus know but for them you only are a energy reservoir.”

    I need to know more about the Western sect you are referring to. What reading would you recommend?

    It is true, the ‘gurus’ don’t care about the mental and physical harm they do and I understand why you think such interference is impossible to prove in a court of law. In my view, if a very large number of women are prepared to speak out as a group, to use some type of media outlet easily accessed by the west, surely this will change Western perception and they can only view what happens as being abusive. They need to know about the ill effects of forced ‘alignment’; they need to know that lamas and gurus are human parasites who prey on peoples’ energy to increase their power.

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  37. Christiane

    I have never, knowingly, practiced Tibetan Buddhism. The Educo cult in Ireland is run by Irish people. The cult leader is Tony Quinn and he is always boasting about doing a type of yoga that is unique to him. Tony Quinn has appealed to his followers that he cannot do anything without them ‘aligning’ to him and, at the same time, condition them to believe he is God. He does not want them to know that his yoga practices are based on Hinduism and sorcery. He is known to be abusive to women and men, physically and sexually, a very cunning man who has, so far, managed to escape arrest, being charged and imprisoned for abuse and money laundering.

    I understand everything you are saying about mind manipulations even though I am not interested in Indian religions. What you refer to as meditation, the Educo cult used the word relaxation. I came to understand what was happening in the Irish Educo cult by reading material on Dialogue about abusive lamas and gurus.

    On seminars Tony Quinn concentrated on bringing the’ blissful’ state where the followers fell ‘in love’ with life (him) and where he takes over their thinking minds. There are hypnotic suggestions made in this process and they might not necessarily hear what he is saying. Depending on how deep they are under hypnosis, and then another stage where nothing is said; they are led into a self-hypnotic state of accepting him as their God where they become obsessed about being in the ‘Now’, supposedly a higher state of being.

    He talks about ‘focusing’ and how they can use this practice to gain what they want. He focuses on influencing people to work for him, material gain and he reinforces the obsession for success, convincing them they need to attend more seminars in order to achieve their goals.

    The only restraint I saw practiced was Quinn restraining his anger on seminars and in public.
    I witnessed the male and female followers become energy junkies willing to do whatever he wants them to, losing all concept of the difference between right and wrong, and losing their souls for a pittance. They are encouraged to recruit and introduce women into the cult for their ‘god’ and the men in particular and women, for the most part, are still silent about the abuse that followed.

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  38. BackAtHome

    ” So what is so blissful and holy in that? Not much, in my opinion.”

    That is exactly what I have written.
    ” All the world thinks, oh Samadhi, a holy state, the state of enlightenment. This state has nothing to do with love, with compassion, with ethical behavior. It is a self-hypnotic training of the brain. Also this text doesn’t talk about the negative sides but it gives a little feeling, what is meant.”

    I don’t know if it is loading the language (point 6). That is not the language of the group that is the language of the very old Yoga. I don’t know with which words the lamas explain their ideology to the students. The meaning of these terms are known all over the world, they only appear in different clothes. In the West we call the Samadhi “Unio Mystica” or “Unity” or “Non-Duality”, in Shamanism there are other words I don’t know. All cultures in all times wanted to reach this state of mind. That is esoteric-alchemist knowlege, a deep knowlege of the nervous system and the possibilities of the brain and the other states of mind the brain can reach. In earlier times this knowlege was in coded texts, so in ther Yoga because not everyone should understand the writings. You needed a master who explained the real understandig. That’s why Eastern philosophies know the master-student relationship. In the West we call such a student of esoteric science “Adept”. Lamaism is nothing more than deep deep esoteric-alchemist knowlege. People who are dealing with this knowlege of esoteric often are very elitist, because they mean they are better than other poeple because – and that is important – they are working on the way to enlightenment instead of other people. That’s why such a lot of academic people run to Tibetan Buddhism and don’t know that they are sitting in the biggest fraud the world has ever seen.
    Of course they love money!! If you don’t believe in alchemy then take its pictures. The alchemist in his laboratory wants to produce GOLD. He wants riches in the material world and in the mental world = Samadhi. So these Lamas and Gurus have to collect money without an end and they have to collect mental power in the form of abusing the Samadhi to control other people and to abuse them.

    “Also I wonder for how long such a mindstate can be “Entire Bliss” in an environment in which free will is necessary to resist temptations?

    I don’t know if I understand this sentence in the right way but I try to answer.
    In this state you are not only in a ecstasy (bliss). As I wrote in the last comment, it is a state of “highest attention” and in the meantime I am sure the free will exists in this state in the same way as in the normal state of mind. They decide to abuse people in this state of mind and really do it. Another hypothesis I have is that they switch between their different states or that they are living in both states. In hypnosis there is a special form of hypnosis called “awake hypnosis”. (maybe this translation isn’t correct, in German: Wachhypnose). The brain is at the same time in two states of mind. Yes, our brain is able to do that. On the one side it is in a state of normal living, and on the other side it is in a hypnotic state in a totally other perception. Eggetsberger in Vienna describes this hypnotic state very good, also Dr. Gresch, a German psychologist who knows a lot about unethical hypnosis. If you are interested I surch for the links.

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  39. Oh yes, we may not be careless with our choice of words. It should be: “… Which also could be an explanation why some reports link Gurus, Lamas, monks and so on to issues like sexual conduct, alcohol, money or power. …”

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  40. Christiane
    Thank you, you are presenting a lot of important information here.

    “state of super-consciousness … means … retention of self volition … or … loss of volition. In this state, the soul is able to enjoy its own Self …” These words must make perfect sense from the viewpoint of Yoga, but if I listen to them with the meaning, they have in western culture, they appear like Loading the language (point 6). I am getting the impression, that in Yoga the soul is understood as being a super-consciousness and that consciousness is understood as being without volition. Or said another way, the soul has to have no will. Is that what some people call “spaced-out”? Also I wonder for how long such a mindstate can be “Entire Bliss” in an environment in which free will is necessary to resist temptations? Which also could be an explanation why Gurus, Lamas, monks and so on showed various forms of abuse (sexual, alcohol, financial, power, …). So what is so blissful and holy in that? Not much, in my opinion.

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  41. The women whose Kundalini is opened by a Western sect told me:” They all know how to……..”
    correct: The woman whose Kundalini……

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  42. Angie

    Thank you for your words

    Yes, I know a lot, since six years I’m only reading and I had a great support from two other victims who explained a lot.

    But I have no chance with the court.

    I have no diagnosis of hypnotic infuence, that would be the first condition.

    I am in a special situation. I have never been in Tibetan Buddhism. I have seen this Hindu tantric man (a German) only one time, but I had a mailing contact about five months. This one meeting was enough to activate my Kundali Energy and change my good life totally.
    The women whose Kundalini is opened by a Western sect told me:” They all know how to open Kundalini, but they don’t know how to treat it.” I’m sure the Lamas and Gurus know but for them you only are a energy reservoir. And I have remembered a woman some time ago. She wrote that her Yoga teacher, an Indian, had opened the Kundalini and she was in a terrible state of mind.

    That’s why I say we have to force the research. They work with their mind, not with words. The old alchemist sentence “mind moves matter” ist right. Whom shall I tell that? Shall I tell this a judge if I have the luck that it comes to an accusation? Theoretically some of us know a lot, perhaps everything. But to prove that exactly a special man at a special time has done this crime is impossible.

    As I know I first have to go through all instances in my own country before I can go to the European Court.

    dialogueireland

    Absolutely right, I agree. June Campbell and Mary Finnigan don’t know anythin about the abuse of Kundalini Energy and its manipulation. June Campbell has done a great work with opening the sex abuse in Tibetan Buddhism. But both have not any idea of the hypnotic manipulations and the absorption of energy.

    Please allow me to to quote a text about “Samadhi” because this state of mind is the most important fact to do manipulations. All the world thinks, oh Samadhi, a holy state, the state of enlightenment. This state has nothing to do with love, with compassion, with ethical behavior. It is a self-hypnotic training of the brain. Also this text doesn’t talks about the negative sides but it gives a little feeling, what is meant.

    “The next step after Pranayama is Pratyahara which means the restraining of the senses from gratification in many ways. Next comes Dharana , i.e., the holding and fixing of the mind on certain points to the exclusion of all others, that is the fixing of the attention on heart or on the image of God. Dhyana is the next step in Yoga and means contemplation of the Self; that is, when the mind is freed from the thraldom of the senses, it is not allowed to wander outwards but is employed in the contemplation of the Self or Atman. These last two naturally lead to Samadhi which is the state of super-consciousness. It means absorption in meditation either with retention of self volition (Savikalpa) or with loss of volition (Nirvikalpa). In this state, the soul is able to enjoy its own Self, which is Entire Bliss.”
    (Vasant. G. Rele, Mysterious Kundalini, The Physical Basis of the “kundalini (Hatha) Yoga in Terms of Western Anatomy and Physiology, S. 17)

    In this state you not only can enjoy your own Self, as the text says but others Selfs in form of abusing them. Hypnosis is a wide, wide field.

    BackAtHome

    I answer as soon as possible.

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  43. She was back at home trying to expose Sogyal but not TB. So in the end she went missing. After all it was Chris who wrote the Lifton article who made that point.

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  44. Sorry I forgot to point out the relevant Lifton criteria:

    Point 2 Mystical Manipulation – The above is all about energy or mind manipulation.

    Point 7 Doctrine over person – If the denial or reinterpretation of contrary experiences is done by mind manipulation (according to my experience, denial is strong in these groups)

    I was commending Mary Finnigan, because I thought she was the first to gather evidence from a lot of different cases and stated, if I remember correctly, that she was committed to bring Sogyal down.

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  45. If you do commend people like Mary Finnegan at least know why you are doing it. You have obviously missed the whole direction of this site with your last comment. This is not about terminology, but about the whole TB / Lamaism enterprise.

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  46. Christiane, on January 3, 2015 at 9:38 pm said:

    “… Sometimes it is really a hard work to stay in the conscious mind …”. So true, I meant 2011, not 2009 ;-)

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  47. @DialogueIreland

    Thank you for the reply. I am sorry, I can not optimally follow the discussions. I did already invest much more time, than I thought would be necessary. Nothing compared to your amount of work, but in 2009 I thought it would be a few weeks and now it is three and a half years later. I guess I can not offer more than dropping in occasionally for a limited amount of time and a few further steps.

    I hope you can forgive me using the term “buddhism” instead of “lamaism” or “tantrism”. Even buddhist insiders often just state that they are buddhists. I think the distinction between the different varieties of buddhism is a work which should not be expected to be done by outsiders, but by buddhism itself. Also consort sex or at least sexual misconduct is known in other forms of buddhism, too. But that is not the focus of this discussion. (If you want a list of references, I am more than happy to send it.)

    @Christiane

    Yes, that’s a lot.

    I am getting a little problem with the words. My understanding is, Alchemy has a defined meaning, Hypnosis is a more or less defined practice (or set of practices) and “energy work” a place holder for anything that adresses the level and the quality of the energetic state of a person, including kundalini (which again is beyond my interest and experience, but the term “Kundalini Syndrome” seems to be a key to understanding the problematic “phenomenons” some people reported). Maybe I am too picky about it, but I find understanding to become increasingly difficult when known and – as I thought – defined words suddenly have another meaning. (Which can be an indication of the Lifton criteria Number 6 “Loading the language”).

    Okay, gynergy I obviously can have no own knowledge about. Various definitions of that word I find to be somehow vague, as if they were describing different aspects of female radiance. But I wonder, if Kundalini energy is believed to exist in women and men, why then it should be only gynergy, a female energy. But as I wrote, that is beyond my scope.

    I also do not understand what is meant by “activation of the canalis centralis in the spinal cord and the activation of the endocrine system”. For me as an outsider, I wonder if the endocrine system is not always activated in any person alive? And the canalis centralis is described as being a small hollow duct within the spinal cord. How can a hollow duct be “activated” and why should that make any difference?

    The following terms I found to be hitting the nail on the head: hypnosis=“concentration of attention and increasing the imagination”=“monoideism”=“focus”=”supreme mindfulness”. Is that not only a description for hypnosis, but also a description for the mind state in meditation? If so, then isn’t this the reason, why meditation is sometimes described as a kind of self-hypnosis? Then, following your description, would you agree thst “meditation is just good for you” could be a suggestive trick to have people bring themselves into a mindstate in which a lama/guru can access the subconscious mind of them? Would you agree, that this all is not too far away from the term “hypnotherapy” which was shortly discussed above? Because then I wonder if “Samadhi” really is something unique to eastern cultures or just a word for an intense yet relaxed, introverted mindstate specifically useful for hypnotic induction.

    And then it gets really interesting and I would like to ask you to elaborate, if possible:
    “for the opening and manipulating of the Kundalini Energy by another person is a serious traumatic abuse”. That is like stating
    1) One person can open and manipulate the Kundalini Energy of another person.
    2) It is a serious traumatic abuse, meaning it happens without the other persons consent.
    (Is that a part of the writing of Michaela Huber? If so, is it a book, an article or so? Where could I access that?)

    Also if I do understand you correctly, you say that lamas/gurus do intentionally(?) open the Kundalini Energy of other persons, so that they can “absorb” them? What I do not understand here, is “absorption” an act of taking something (for example energy) away from the other person or is it an act of invoking a certain mind state in the other person, or an act of controlling the mind or implanting new beliefs in the other person?
    Do you know of any evidence, statements, testimonies, original teachings or similar regarding this opening the Kundalini Energy by Lamas/Gurus?

    Also, if you, the victims you know and the victims I know are interested in that, I would like to bring you together (if you do not know each other already). Some of your descriptions set alarm bells ringing, as if I saw a very similar description already at another place. Of course privacy is an issue here. I do not know what would be the best solution (Email, postal mail, …). Probably whatever solution you suggest, I could go along with it and I do not need to be a part of the conversation. I am getting the impression, this is the point at which certain key issues emerge. It would be very helpful to have a catalog of these key issues based on a fair number of cases.

    This all proceeds only step-by-step, much too slow in my opinion, but it does. I can not promise anything. I have no connections or anything. Just an idea. I began to wonder about a tv report, similar to Cogent Bengers “In the name of enlightenment”:
    – Why not write a script of such a report, maybe up to ten or more cases
    – Who wants to stay anonymous can do so and of course only tell what he or she wants to tell about (at least in german tv anonymous statements in reports seem to be possible)
    – comments by a few critical psychologists giving explanations according to western knowledge
    – Some background information about the underlying buddhist/hindu/tantric belief/”teaching”
    – Throw in some more cases from the origin countries
    – Clarify the similarities with characteristics for recognition of cults or even sects
    – Maybe even some similarities with known cults or sects
    That should be enough for up to about 30 to 45 minutes. Maybe some tv station would be interested in that. And/or some human/female rights organization would be willing to support it, or maybe there is even a government institute or so? Maybe someone already has a legal department to check exactly what may be said in what way. And even if no certain person may be named as an offender, one could still only by the number of similar cases make clear that something is not the way it should be. In such a case it would be a group, so that noone stands alone, and if someone would actually do such a production I think there would be no question of believing in the cases.

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  48. back at home. Mary Finnegan is one to cry out… but wishes to remain within the confines of Lamaism. She opposes abuse but not Lamaism so nothing will change. Did you not read Chris’s pieces on this? We are dealing with Tantric Hinduism which promotes consort sex. This has nothing to do with Buddhism.

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  49. Absolutely. Would this discussion take place without the courage of June Campbell? Or Mary Finnigan?

    That’s not meaning to devalue the effort of anybody else, but for the first voices it must have been very difficult to speak out, with nobody supporting them, no forums, no like-minded critical people, nothing.

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  50. BackAtHome

    It’s a lot, but I try an answer.
    Sorry, but hypnosis is “energy work”. Hypnosis is the work of the hypnotist with the subconscious mind of the client. From there commands, specific reactions, behaviors, feelings, memories, speech patterns, collective subconscious, codes and much more are called into the conscious mind. You can do this for therapeutic reasons to cure someone of certain experiences and let stay his soul healthy, you can also do this to install “psychic parasites” which flow again and again from the subconscious to the conscious mind. This can, for example, be always the same phrases that appear in the thoughts to manifest the staying in the cult or even the in Tibetan Buddhism so popular demons. Some call this hallucinations or Schizophrenia, I call it other states of conscious.

    Today the science does not know how exactly is the path from the hypnotist’s words finally into the client’s consciousness. No one can define exactly how hypnosis works, we just know that it works.

    Very briefly, hypnosis and Alchemy are the same. If people hear or read the term Alchemy, they often go inside in resistance. Like everything in the world this thing has two sides. I can produce in the laboratory medicine and heal with it and a self- hypnotic state of mind people (as in ancient Egypt), I also can produce poison, spread it into my neighbor’s food and set a “psychic parasite” into his subconscious by self-hypnosis.
    Alchemy is a complicated exercise program to achieve different states of consciousness, and finally the “Samadhi”.

    Another argument for “energy work” is the term “absorption”. The Trimondis always describe in their book “The Shadow of the Dalai Lama” the absorption of the Gynergy in form of the release of Kundalini energy; again in the Western languages, the activation of the canalis centralis in the spinal cord and the activation of the endocrine system. By the way ….. a reviewer who did not like the book, probably a follower of Tibetan Buddhism, wrote that the authors mediated that the lamas would “sip” the Gynergy. No, of course not, absorption is a term used in hypnosis. James Braid (1795 -1860) defined hypnosis as “concentration of attention and increasing the imagination” and wanted to change the term “hypnosis” with the term “monoideism”. Modern psychologists mean by absorption a “focus” or a “state of supreme mindfulness”. This is the state of the “Samadhi” the lamas and gurus go in, and from where they achieve access to the subconscious mind of the students.

    The third point, why it is an “energy work” is the Kundalini energy itself. It is an energy, because the victims feel the movements in their bodies, sometimes with pain and have still other phenomenons. That’s why I say that it must be activated, both in the lama and in the student, so that the Lama can do the absorption, the “high concentration state of mind”.
    People with an activated Kundali energy always are in a trance-state and sometimes fall automatically in deep trance- states. Sometimes it is really a hard work to stay in the
    conscious mind.
    The lama / guru can manipulate in this state of extreme attention others. These are the “Siddhis”. The result is the highest power of mind control.

    The last point why it is “energy work”. People with an opened Kundalini Energy have apparition phenomenons in their home, problems with electrical appliances, things disappear and suddenly are back again and in my case often heavy showers run over my head and down over my shoulders and over my back. The famous German trauma therapist, Michaela Huber, has written already in 1995 about problems with electrical equipment. These are the consequences of dissociation after traumatic experiences, for the opening and manipulating of the Kundalini Energy by another person is a serious traumatic abuse.
    So I only can suppose that something is happening in the electromagnetic field that sets the objects on moving and stops the electrical appliances; finally our nervous system is pure electricity.
    So I know that we have to deal with “energy work” on all levels.

    I know other victims, but not many. Three who were abused by Tibetan Buddhism and one victim whose Kundalini Energy has been opened in a ‘Western sect. I have been abused by Tantric Hinduism, the big brother of Tibetan Buddhism.

    It is difficult to unite victims. Some of them are highly traumatized and very stressed, some don’t want to talk or write in public. In my opinion victims need other people who first BELIEVE THEM and second can manage things; and most of all they need a lawyer who seals the group off. As long as only one is writing and telling nothing happens, but if a group starts telling and perhaps name the perpetrators, the Lamas and Gurus will react. But the greatest problem is that we are not able to prove unethical hypnosis done by a special man because everybody can have done it. In dubio pro reo.

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  51. BackAtHome

    Women like Rebecca are the real heroines of this world. It’s not easy to blow the whistle on abusive cult leaders while struggling with indoctrinated beliefs, however, her understanding of them and their effects was vital in helping the law bring Warren Jeffs to justice. He deserves life in prison. He has a very sick mind and it is incomprehensible that he is allowed to continue to have contact even though ex-followers are warning us that it might lead to a catastrophe similar to the Jim Jones cult. Current evidence (filmed on “Escaping the Prophet”) of mining and weaponing piling in ‘The Creek’ are huge red flags.

    I am familiar with the battle you fight following contact with cultic groups. I also believe there is a divinity far powerful than any power on this earth. Otherwise I would not have the freedom of mind I have today.

    Christiane

    I honestly cannot fathom why women who know they have been damaged, in the name of eastern religions, do not do anything about it. Seriously, what are you waiting for? Do you really need further evidence into the dangerous effects of mind and body control? It would be far better if you joined en mass and brought charges against lamas with the knowledge you already have. What resources do you have? Is there any way you can gain access to support of the European court system?

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  52. Just to make clear: “I can not accept any other authority than that which I try to hold on” includes holding on to the laws of a “good” country. I would probably try to leave a country if it goes “bad” and passes “bad” laws (for example the legislation of the Nazis in germany).

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  53. @Angie
    Thanks for the kind words. Btw, one of the bigger problems of mankind seems to be, to believe to receive absolute knowledge, authorization and to be justified by a higher power, no matter what. We saw this in the Nazis (master race, supremacy of Aryas), in IS (holy war) and for example in the “prophet” Warren Jeff, who stated at court “I am at peace” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAo6FpHMEwM, 50:35).

    @Christiane
    I have to admit the issues you write about are beyond my scope. But you give very interesting statements. It is very difficult to get close to these issues because they are scientifically and thus legally unprovable. But reading reports of victims, such practices are probably exactly what causes the damage to innocent people.

    You wrote, you know what you are talking and writing about. Well, I don’t know about burning hair, astral travel (which as far as I understand is not the same as teleportation) or “energy work” on people while they are supposed to sleep. And I am absolutely not interested in that.

    But you wrote about controlling other minds, unethical hypnosis, setting programs and codes in the context of Lamas and other Gurus. Do yo know of any references, proof, stories, reports of victims and so on, which you could share with us? I think the only chance we have at this time, is circumstancial evidence. The more cases we know about the more likely it is one day a court will accept the possibile existence of such manipulations.

    My point of view about supernatural powers, alchemy and so on: I once read that even some buddhist masters warn against going for supernatural abilities, which they believe do evolve while progressing on their spiritual path. Clinging to such abilities was seen as being one of the bigger obstacles on the path to “enlightenment”. So, I thought buddhism must be really sophisticated, if they know that and follow that knowledge (at that time I still believed they do so).

    It took me many years to understand the terrible misunderstanding (nicely said) or double-speak (that’s what I think it is) behind making people belief they get what they are searching for on the buddhist path. The buddhist and probably most other “pathes” are not interested in what people are searching for. All they are interested in is making people follow that “path”. And they do so by making people believe, what they really are searching for is what their “path” has to offer.

    My interpretation of my personal experiences – which cannot be proven, so decide for yourself if you believe it or not – is, that people are tricked into using such powers. Somehow, I don’t know how, they achieve such abilities and at first the results seem to be promising and unproblematic. But what that moment in life really is, is a door opening to a parallel reality. If you go for the powers, that means you leave the world in which you were looking for what you wanted. And in that parallel reality, you get powers, maybe, but you can not get what you were originally looking for, because that simply does not exist in this parallel reality. And no matter how much power you get, there’s always one with more powers. If that is not the workings of what the buddhists call “Mara”, I don’t know what it is. And those supposed to be wise masters and Lamas and Rinpoches fall for it.

    And the worst is, if you come into regular contact with people who live in this parallel world, they begin to drag you into it before you understand what is happening to you. And that is a statement of which I can say I know, or better have experienced, what I am writing about. When I was coming out of that valley of shadow in the christian sense, buddhism was the next to drag me right back into it.

    And maybe a useable thought for some people, I try to hold on to what I believe is “good”, “loving” and “peaceful” in a world that seems to become less and less interested in that. In times in which words are willingly distorted and falsely reinterpreted to drag us away from that, I can not accept any other authority than that which I try to hold on. And sometimes it seems to support me with a little help.

    (You probably have no idea how much I am in no way anything like that which for example the Nydahl buddhists go for. And to be at buddist events is really damaging to my peace, but it takes me only a few weeks to regenerate while other people may get lost for their life if they make a decision based on one-sided information about buddhism.)

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  54. @BackAt Home

    I do not think we did left behind these issues. We have only named them differently in different ages. They are as old as humans beings are on earth.

    The absolute foundation of all is the alchemy. Trimondis have explain it in an excellent way in their book “The Shadow of the Dalai Lama.” Alchemy is one of the oldest sciences we know. It does not only work in the laboratory, but the sense is self hypnosis to achieve different states of consciousness. For me, meditation is nothing more than self-hypnosis. In certain states of consciousness, precognition, teleportation, clairvoyance, clairaudience and telepathy are possible. I know what I’m talking and writing about. That is what the Siddhis also say. Also the parascience knows it. They know, that telepathy or precognition is possible but they can’t systematize these phenomenons, but that is what science demands.

    So, to control the mind in such a way means to have the absolute power. and to control other minds in such a way seems to be the highest feeling a human beeing can reach. There is only a little mistake. To control someone others mind means to maltreat him in a terrible way. With unethical hypnosis you can maltreat the nervous system directly and you can set programs and codes in the body and you can do that all without a word, only in the state of consciousness called Samadhi. No, I don’t talk about the CIA and the MK Ultra Program, I talk about Lamas and other Gurus

    My hypothesis is that all is only possible with an opened Kundalini Process. In the West we should start to take Western terms, so we could say with an activated central channel (I don’t know if this is the right English word, in German: Zentralkanal) in the spinal cord and an activated endocrine system. But in this case too science doesn’t do research.

    All these cult leaders of Tibetan Buddhism and Tantric Hinduism are more dangerous than we believe. And they do what they can that not anyone of their secrets comes into the light. The West supports their behavior and says people who talk about such things are mentally ill. Since six years I am so clear in my mind as perhaps never before.

    Shortly about the books. Dean Radin often quotes the Dalai Lama. Of course, a lot of American scientists think he is a clever man. They don’t know the sort of his intelligence. Of course as all scientists he doesn’t see the dark side of all, he wants to prove all these phenomenons.
    Powell doesn’t research the Siddhis, she has nothing to do with Yoga, she makes normal experiments.

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  55. Back at Home

    I will also say thank you for the time and effort you put into expressing your point of view. I agree with you on all of the points you have made.

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  56. If Jesus did come across Buddhists in his travels he did not preach Buddhism. I should have recorded a documentary I watched about three years ago. I cannot recall the name of it; however, the quest was to find evidence of Jesus in India to prove that Jesus was a Buddhist. All he found was a picture of a white man, supposedly Jesus; in a Buddhist monastery that I suspect was placed there by a tourist possibly during the 1960’s. The journey was quite extensive and, much to their disappointment, they found no evidence whatsoever.

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  57. @Christiane
    Sorry, I am so angry about these “influences” that I forgot a thank you for referencing the books. The next flyer will probably be about dangers in meditation and relaxation. Maybe the books you mentioned contain some valuable evidence for the existence and abuse of these powers.

    @Angie
    I don’t know at which point the usual range from action to relaxation needs to be called a disorder. But imagine a person trying to bring a healthy balance to his or her life “receiving” one of those “energy transmissions”. Not everybody thinks drinking kerosene is fun. To quite a few people it could cause a serious health risk. That’s like a doctor prescribing a medication without checking for contraindications or side-effects first. I mean, they are the Pros knowing everything better, right?

    But it is interesting that you mention it, maybe the young man I wrote about, was not quite himself, but had just swallowed to great a gulp of the “qualities” of his idol.

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  58. I see it that way: another side effect of globalization is, we are confronted with issues again which we left behind a few hundred years ago. I think the scientific part of this world needs to realize that.

    The great question is, how to deal with it. In my opinion it is an ethcial decision. Not everything that mankind is capable of doing should be done. So the question is, are we going to accept that such powers are trained and used? Or are we recognizing them as a serious problem, a threat to basic values of our societies, like freedom of the individual and human dignity.

    My opinion is, we banned them once and we should ban them again. For our culture, such issues are past. We have progressed far beyond that. I assume if people would understand the long-term consequences of allowing that to come back to our culture, they would slam the doors shut immediately.

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  59. Back at Home

    You asked “An what was the Dalai-Lama doing in this picture:
    http://www.dalailama.com/gallery/album/0/443#ad-image-0

    Scroll up and access the link on “BackAtHome, on September 7, 2014 at 1:35 pm said:”

    Two magicians took to the stage on “America’s Got Talent” show and used the same technique. A member of the panel was asked to join them and take part in a ‘trick’ demonstration of reading out words presented on cards; he read them out phonetically and his perception was distorted as to the order of the letters.

    Incidentally, the person the irresponsible magicians chose had made it public that he suffered from a bi-polar disorder.

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  60. @BackAtHome
    congratulations for what you are doing. It is a brave way to “beard the lion in his den “, or at least up to the entrance.

    I think in order to understand better these cults and their procedures, we must strengthen the scientific level. Both in Tibetan Buddhism and in Tantric Hinduism play the biggest role the “Siddhis”. These “Powers” are obtained in a state of “Samadhi” and reached by every cult leader and also achieved through the transmissions.

    This is a field of parapsychology, unfortunately is devalued by psychology and medicine. But more and more researchers are slowly beginning to deal with it. Dean Radin e.g. knows that a certain hypnotic state is required for telepathy. In his book “Super Normal, Science, Yoga, and the evidence for extraordinary psychic abilities”, he deals with exactly these “Siddhis”. I have not read it yet, but with the “Siddhis” he is on the right track. The neuroscientist Diane Hennacy Powel also examined in her book: “The ESP Enigma: The Case for Psychic Phenomena” (deutscher Titel: “Das Möbius Bewusstsein”) extrasensory perception.

    The “Siddhis” are very well described in the old Patanjali Yoga and we should start to take them very seriously and translate them in a scientific language.

    Still we have to learn a lot about hypnosis, unethical hypnosis. Also in this field scientists take distance, because unethical research is impossible. They should ask the Lamas, Rinpoches, Swamijis etc. and they would know all about our nervous system and how to manipulate it.

    Then it becomes clearer why it is so difficult to reach people in these cults and lead them back in reality. We need hard facts.

    Of course nevertheless we have to talk about this great danger of these cults, say what we know and warn……….again and again.

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  61. Here we go again – one more: Searching for “Escaping the prophet” on a certain video website reveals a lot of entries.

    For example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUznu5ra-Dg – that is soo what happens when talking to “buddhists”. They think they have “learned” something, you know, the “truth” of a “genuine jewel” or similar. That gives them appreciation by their community and that’s what people really need. And then come the greedy and instead of charity, they turn the need for love into a tool for manipulation and – the worst trick of all – control and separation, which I think is the true opposite of love.

    And the next trick is, what I just wrote can be interpreted as trying to indoctrinate. Once our cultures have reached that point, they can make look anti-cult like being cultish, cult can be made to look like “truth”, and making an effort for more objective information can be made to look like propaganda. And what will happen when anything can be true or false and people have no reliable reference point anymore to make an informed decision?

    Regarding the young man in the video above: Just two days ago I had a conversation with a young man at the Nydahl meeting, probably 16 to 25 or so, who “knew” that Jesus does exist in buddhism, too, and that Jesus “was super” and that I had no clue about christianity, because in religious education in public school he learned that the holy spirit is in every human being and every human being is a part of god and, if I remember correctly, all of humanity is god.

    (If anyone wants my comment on this, I will do so, but for now want to avoid anything that may look like christian indoctrination)

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  62. I don’t know, these days youth movements, religious and spiritual movements and even corporate identities show strong signs of cultish thinking. Think about making people believe water was a ressource that has to be filled in bottles and sold by a certain company. Twenty years ago everyone would have laughed at such a silly idea.

    In times of globalization we can see that each cult-ure is a cult in itself, if looked at from the viewpoint of a different culture.

    If you know one cult, you’re better protected against others. Maybe that is a lesson, we have to learn these days.

    On the other hand, that lesson stole at least 11 years of my life, destroyed a lot of positive perspectives and does not really offer a direction. More like there is no reliable direction because anything can be turned into a cultish something by people striving for power and influence.

    But back to religion, spirituality and so on, the worst thing about it is, that the original impulse of many good people to get involved with something that turns out to be a cult – that impulse was true and honest. It was not a cultish “make the world a better place” (… meaning changing the world according to my cult’s ideals) but the true intention to be good and live life.

    But cults do pervert that and turn it into conflict, mistrust, manipulation and the only way to escape that is isolation. But yes, that’s an issue for the United Nations or so. It addresses a problem humanity faces as a whole and will need to find a solution for it.

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  63. I don’t know if you have access to particular television stations, however, you might come across them on others. There is a television series called “Escaping the Prophet” on channel TLC about an ex-member of The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints who helps people who have fled the church and recently I watched a film shown on BBC Channel 4 on 20th December 2014 called “Martha Marcy May Marlene” which was shown in an Irish cinema about three years ago. Both give great insight into cult leaders and the drawbacks of mind manipulation. The majority who leave are dependent on practical and emotional support. No cult is an island when you see how many similarities they share.

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  64. To clarify, people most capable of helping others to break away from the cult may have a problem with openly admitting they were once a victim of cultic influence because of the inevitable backlash and it is also probable that they have the intelligence to understand the enormity of such a career choice in supporting ex-cult members.

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  65. To my horror, I came to realise that most of the inner group, particularly ‘top brass’, they know how the techniques work and they make a conscious decision to go along with it. The ones to step back and assess the effects, knowing the level of interference involved, want nothing to do with it which, if applicable in this situation, poses a paradox; people most capable of helping may have a problem with ‘changing’ the cult mind-set.

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  66. The embarrassment, yes, that is something worth exploring. They are trapped in the cult yet do not want to be recognised as being part of the herd that is locked into the Educo cult mind-set. They will deny association with Quinn outside the cult environment; a typical example of the ‘lone’ recruiter who ‘preaches’ the cult ‘creed’ believing it comes from ‘inner knowing’, oblivious to the hypnotic programme. People would not be so inclined to go to them for therapy or join their cult groups if they knew of their association with Quinn.

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  67. Well expressed Angie and Back at Home. This is exactly the response when we protest outside the TQ Educo Seminars. The people run from us with a mixture of arrogance and embassament.

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  68. One would hope that the innate human need for freedom will take over and they will kick hard against being caged like animals who are trained to do their masters bidding.

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  69. Yes, their minds have been snapped into accepting everything the gurus say. They are locked into an environment, a cage of reinforced cultic thought patterns; you give a perfect example showing how they seem incapable of saving themselves and each other from bondage to their guru. Being capable of thinking outside of the cage would require unravelling the mind-set, and who has the key to open the lock to free them?

    You would have the same experience if you confronted those in bondage to the Educo mind-set. Anyone, previously involved in such a set-up, needs to stand firm so as not to be drawn back into it. The choice is whether people want to be part of an unhealthy cultic group or a free thinking human being who is prepared to feel isolated at times from friends and family who get sucked into the guru drivel. Having experienced it ourselves and escaped, looking from the outside in, we know they are programmed in particular to avoid thinking about the unsavory elements and dangers present in the cult. The clang of the cage door slams and the programmed arrogant response and sometimes violent reaction is evidence of the ‘one mind’ group response. One can see how well he has trained them and I doubt they would have joined the cult if they knew the outcome was to be trained like a herd of animals.

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  70. I spent the last days outside of the new year’s course of Mr. Nydahl, handing out flyers again. In interactions with followers, I experienced a lot of the typical arrogant behaviour.

    At one point I received the typical bullying/ridiculing. There were a lot of patronizing comments. And there were a few conversations. What I noticed was, that no matter what, they all were completely protective about their lineage and especially Mr. Nydahl. I also noticed that each example I gave, they tried to argue against it, to play it down or to excuse. Maybe there were one or two truely empathic reactions, I am not sure about those, but generally no interest in the victims was expressed. Another typical reaction was to express interest in an issue (for example brutality in old tibet), then asking for an example (for example gouging out of eyes or cutting off extremities) then not believing what I said and when I offered to give them the references so they can see for themselves suddenly changeing the issue. I wonder if that is one of the “qualities” they receive from their teacher when merging their mind with his mind in meditation.

    I also experienced how easy it must be to get sucked into it and how difficult it must be to get out of it again. Since they all argue in very similar ways and thus agree to the line of reasoning they have in common, probably every explanation one ever could ask for will be reflecting this line of reasoning and so at least from inside their group, they will hardly ever get any impulse for questioning their “truth”.

    I also got the impression that they understand anything as related to their group. For example me handing out flyers with critical information about buddhism in general was commented with “It is good, you want to be close to us.”. Quite a change in perspective from critical information to wanting to be close and from buddhism in genereal to their group. I think that is a good example for trying to alter another person’s thought process.

    My interpretation of these conversations is, that they all made very good examples of snapped minds.

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  71. BackAtHome

    “Are there parallels to the described inviting and promising character, active acceptance and participation of the subject up to the point that the subject believes she or he is doing, controlling and being responsible for it all by her-/himself?”

    Yes, I believe this is the case and in cultic groups like Educo it is a deception that can also lead to taking responsibility for acting on ‘therapists’ or cult the leader’s plan of action; a subtle invitation to participate in enabling an outcome that further increases the belief in personal power,the unconscious being capable of imagining and accepting the hypnotically induced role being laid out and being led to believe that it is a personal decision. The ‘shift’ in perception, accessing the unconscious mind, is referred to by Tony Quinn as the “formula that never fails”. Unfortunately, for him, it has failed and his trickery exposed.

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  72. DI, thank you for offering this service. Without it and likewise Rick Ross’ forum, Mary Finnigan’s Behind The Thangkas and various other online sources, I would not be at this point.

    Here’s another reference regarding Pt. 7 Doctribe over person:

    http://www.khandro.net/buddhism_West.htm

    “… In March (16-19) of 1993, a group of 22 teachers of Buddha-Dharma from the major denominations of Buddhism that are active in Europe and America met in Dharamshala, India under the auspices of His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso. Also present were Tibetan lamas Drikung Chestang Rinpoche, Panchen Otrul Rinpoche and Amchok Rinpoche, among others.

    The aim of the meeting was to discuss openly a wide range of issues concerning the transmission of Buddha-dharma to the Western lands. The conclusions were that:

    …For example, the insights and techniques of contemporary psychotherapy can often be of great value in reducing suffering experienced by students. … Particular concern was expressed about unethical conduct among teachers. In recent years both Asian and Western teachers have been involved in scandals concerning sexual misconduct with their students, abuse of alcohol and drugs, misappropriation of funds, and misuse of power. …”

    What do we have here? 21 and a half year ago these major western buddhist denominations, the Dalai Lama and some Rinpoches already knew about “suffering experienced by students”, “sexual misconduct”, “alcohol/drug abuse”, “misuse of power” and so on.

    What does that mean? It means that 15 years later apparently not much had changed, if looking at the Nydahl thread at Rick Ross forum, which started August 2008. It means that the latter half of Behind the Thangkas (chapters 9 to 17) describe situations after the above meeting in March 1993. It means that the search results from “buddh pedophile monks” are mostly after that meeting.

    It means that looking at all the informations we have available now, from this thread and other places, I think we may say that these people were not successful in solving these problems. Question is why. Some say in buddhism no authority exists, who could stop misbehaving “teachers”. Others say, they don’t want it in the first place.

    Like

  73. BackAtHome you are showing the loss of critical thinking. Now that Chris has migrated you are our lone voice bringing these issues to the fore.

    Submitted on 2014/09/07 at 11:05 am

    KateS, on September 18, 2013 at 11:27 pm said:

    ‘… The point here is that the “state of joy” simply allowed access to what lay beyond that …’

    What shall we think of pictures like the following?

    Is she using meditation to assist the people of Ukraine?

    Like

  74. Another comment is necessary for a third link.

    … The professor in the above description used an “Ericksonian trance induction”. And he did not describe it as such, so his students were not aware of what the professor did. And he did it using a ‘hypnotic voice’. To be noted, that was a trance induction just by using the voice, which answers the questions about whether such techniques do exist?

    What is Ericksonian trance induction? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_H._Erickson:

    ‘… the unconscious mind … always listening and … suggestions could be made which would have a hypnotic influence, as long as … found resonance at the unconscious level. The patient could be aware of this or could be completely oblivious that something was happening. … allow the unconscious mind to participate actively in the … process. In this way, what seemed like a normal conversation might induce a hypnotic trance, or a … change in the subject. …trance is a common, everyday occurrence … trance states to occur naturally and frequently, he was prepared to exploit them … many techniques for increasing the likelihood that a trance state would occur … classical hypnosis is authoritative and direct and often encounters resistance in the subject, Erickson’s approach is permissive, accommodating and indirect. …’

    ‘… the authoritative “You will stop smoking” is likely to find less leverage on the unconscious level than “You can become a non-smoker”. The first is a direct command, to be obeyed or ignored … the second is an opening, an invitation … without pressure, and is less likely to raise resistance. …’

    ‘… provides an opportunity for the subject to accept the suggestions they are most comfortable with, at their own pace, and with an awareness of the benefits. The subject knows they are not being hustled and takes full ownership of, and participates in, their transformation. Because the induction takes place during the course of a normal conversation, Ericksonian hypnosis is often known as Covert or Conversational Hypnosis.’

    ‘… A confused person has their conscious mind busy and occupied, and is very much inclined to draw upon unconscious learnings to make sense of things. A confused person is in a trance of their own making – and therefore goes readily into that trance without resistance. Confusion might be created by ambiguous words, complex or endless sentences, pattern interruption or a myriad of other techniques …’

    ‘… Among Erickson’s best-known innovations is the hypnotic handshake induction, which is a type of confusion technique … hypnotist going to shake hands with the subject, then interrupting the flow of the handshake in some way, such as by grabbing the subject’s wrist instead. … out-of-keeping with expectations, a simple, non-verbal trance is created, … utilized by the hypnotist. All these responses happen naturally and automatically …’

    If a professor can do that in a college class, can the same be done at public buddhist meetings or at meditation/relaxation events?

    Are there parallels to the described inviting and promising character, active acceptance and participation of the subject up to the point that the subject believes she or he is doing, controlling and being responsible for it all by her-/himself?

    “Just meditate. Meditation is just good for you. It is healing.” “Discover your full potential.” What about the Zen-Koans, are they in reality methods for creating trance states based on confusion? What about the hours-long talks about values which most people can not disagree with (compassion, peacefulness, protecting nature, for the benefit of sentient beings, to overcome any suffering)? Or the so-called therapeutic touch?

    An what was the Dalai-Lama doing in this picture: http://www.dalailama.com/gallery/album/0/443#ad-image-0

    Like

  75. More on “mystical manipulation”, “loading the language”, “thought-terminating” and so on:

    http://www.buddhismus-deutschland.de/einmalige-veranstaltungen/

    This is the Deutsche Buddhistische Union (german buddhist union). It offers ‘Michael Schellberg, Dipl.-Psychologe,systemischer Psychotherapeut … 19.09.2014 … Psychologische Entspannungsübungen und buddhistische Meditationen, z. B. Hypno- … Meditation. …’.

    So what is Hypno-Meditation, offered by this Dipl-Psych. for a tibetan Mahayana (Gelugpa) association? Please notice this is supposed to be Mahayana – apparently such techniques are not used only in Vajrayana.

    A search for ‘hypnomediatation’ led to http://www.hawkridgeproductions.com/media/medhypno.html:

    ‘… a college student … went to my “Chinese and Japanese Philosophy” class. The professor … more interested in giving the class a taste of Zen experience … guided us into awareness of the present through Ericksonian trance induction (though he did not describe it as such …). On that day, his trance instructions were a listing of sensory details: “As you sit here now, you can hear my voice, and the sounds coming from the hallway, and feel the chair beneath you, and see the quality of light in the room, etc.”

    … there was my professor, deliberately listing sensory details in a hypnotic voice. Wham! Something fairly indescribable happened … it was one of the more remarkable states of consciousness that I had encountered through meditation – and there was no question that my professor’s trance induction was a major catalyst.’

    I don’t know about you, but I personally once was at a public buddhist event, for anyone interested to come, with a few hundred people in a tent (some certainly non-buddhists), and a representative of the Tibetisches Zentrum Hamburg giving that meditation lesson about sitting quietly, focusing thoughts only on breathing in and out and what a gift it is to feel the air flow through the nose into the lungs and back out.

    Somehow similar to what that student above described, hmmm?

    Like

  76. KateS, on September 18, 2013 at 11:27 pm said:

    ‘… The point here is that the “state of joy” simply allowed access to what lay beyond that …’

    What shall we think of pictures like the following?

    http://www.dalailama.com/gallery/album/0/443#ad-image-7

    The german lady is the vice-president of german parliament.

    Like

  77. Extremists terror Attack!!! See:

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/buddhist-extremist-cell-vows-to-unleash-tranquilit,34623/

    Take up arms sisters and brothers! Let’s visit fast food restaurants until we created enough bad karma to let lights go out in Dharamsala and Nepal!

    ;-)

    Like

  78. Said another way: I suspect, buddhist teaching methods are dangerous and unapplicable at mass events.

    Like

  79. I forgot one thing, that made the pieces fit together:

    – from the Wikipedia article on “Hypnotherapie”: “… Absolute contraindication … acute psychotic episode … paranoid delusions … relatice contraindication … borderline and narcissistic personality disorder …”

    – from the Wikipedia article on “Psychose”: “… Hallucinations … voices … ego-disorders … loss of boundaries between ego and environment …”
    – from the Wikipedia article on “Paranoia”: “… paranoid symptoms … borderline …”

    If I understand this correctly, it means:
    Some teachers use methods comparable to Hypnotherapy. If students follow those teachings, they may begin to develop disorders which are listed under the contraindications of Hypnotherapy. But they probably continue to be taught by their teachers with Hypnotherapy-like methods, even though that is contraindicated. I wonder if that establishes a self-reinforcing circle which can lead to extreme results.

    Like

  80. To prove my point of how they recruit additional members, Martin Forde admitted “that there are at least 50 examples where one member of a marriage has sent the other out on seminars”.

    Like

  81. It is frightening to experience or witness another suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress, or borderline personality Disorder and the behaviours are explained in some quarters as, supposedly, divine madness.

    The perpetrators never take responsibility for the outcome and yes, I think that ‘religious/cult leaders’ who use hypnotic techniques on their followers are fully aware of the risk of insanity. Tony Quinn was very aware of this.

    Like

  82. The following is a hypothesis, not claiming to be the truth. Just a view from a different angle.

    Hypnotherapy does work, that is proven. Search for “charisma hypno” and you will find some of the more questionable use cases. When looking at the Wikipedia definition of “Hypnotherapie” suddenly all these psychological puzzle pieces began to make a bigger picture.

    Let’s assume you think you have achieved something very special (i.e. some ‘genuine’ knowledge) and now you want to make people support you. First they have to make your goals their ‘own’ goals. So you have to hypnotize them and implant the idea, your goals are ‘right’ and they themselves want to follow them. Without rapport you will not be able to feed them your suggestions. To create rapport you are friendly, smile, say “I am like you” or “I understand what you experience” and so on.

    But then these people go back to their previous social connections. There they get their old goals suggested and forget what you told them. So you need to isolate them from their previous social connections, but you can not control erverybody. What you need is to have them rejecting their previous social connections by themselves. How do you do that? You implant suggestions that the whole world is evil and only pain and so on. And because you “understand what they experience” you give some examples of the more painful life experiences almost everybody knows. And then you suggest, you have the solution for this, but this solution includes that they need to overcome their attachment to their previous values, goals, family etc. Now there will be less rapport between them and their previous social connections and suggesting them their “old” goals will be less effective than before.

    They come back to hear your talks and the closer you draw them to you, the more they will refuse their previous life. And you make them feel “special”, like a “shining (crazy) diamond” because they are the ones to walk the “new” path, to leave the “old” bad world behind and from you, they will receive their “liberation”.

    But if they were really free, they would not do what you want them to do for you, but what they want by themselves. How to handle that problem? You suggest the real liberation is to give up any attachment including the idea of having a “self” that wants anything. Because that’s absurd, you need to make it sound more digestible and you invent the word “selflessness” for that. They begin to believe they don’t want too much for themselves, because that would mean they still have that “ego” that blocks their “path to liberation”.

    But the mind can only be tricked so much. What to do, when they notice contradictions or no real progress on that “path”? If they ask questions, that could trigger critical questioning in other members, too. So you tell them they can achieve that “precious” and “genuine” knowledge not by themselves, but only through you. You tell them they need to believe you even when it doesn’t seem to make sense or when it gets insanely difficult. You tell them criticizing you blocks their “path”. And if all goes wrong, your fallback-strategy will be a universal cosmic law which – specific reasons unknown – makes some persons have difficulties. That’s just how things are. But no worry, if they keep up the good work (for your interests), they will have a better next round.

    Just to point out the direction I am throwing in a few psychological terms:

    Narcissistic personality disorder (delusions of grandeur, desire for appreciation, status-conscious manners, hypersensibility to being criticized)

    When that system gets institutionalized, you have child monks. Their “teachers” beat out of them what is not in alignment to that “knowledge”. Abuse probably leads to a post-traumatic stress disorder (dissociative personality, depersonalization, isolation, feeling of emptiness).

    Borderline personality disorder (impulsiveness regarding spending money, sexuality, substance misuse, eating disorder, “black-and-white” thinking, magical thinking) is part of post-traumatic stress disorders.

    Depersonalization disorder (emotional numbness, detachment from body/experiences, feelings of irreality of the environment) is a symptom of borderline personality disorder.

    Are the parallels obvious of above symptoms and what some buddhist teachings say is part of the “path” respectively the behaviour of some recent “teachers” in the west?

    If the above is true, then it could be that at least to some extent we would have the following situation:

    Persons who show certain psychological symptoms believe that these symptoms are inherent parts of a spiritual/religious teaching. These persons come to a foreign culture, which regards these symptoms as disorders. They “teach” regular “sane” people, possibly by some kind of hypnosis and suggestions, that as parts of the “path” it is desirable to achieve those symptoms (just a few examples: “no ego, no problem”, detachment, sexual abstinence/visualizations/rituals, isolation/retreats, control/rejection of body sensations). And after following their teachings for a while some of the new students begin to develop let’s say unusual symptoms or perceptions, too. And when those teachers are criticized, they answer “we don’t know what’s wrong with him/her, she/he is just confused”.

    If that is what it is, wouldn’t it be time to put an end to it? Or must our tolerance go so far as to tolerate irresponsibility or even insanity as soon as anybody puts the label “religion” on it?

    Like

  83. “… This complex, fear-driven programming, which transforms the victim into a mental slave with fragmented identity, only works on a further condition: the person concerned must lose his self-confidence. … Nevertheless, mind control works by split personality, on basis of a monstrous paradox: the victim develops the identity of a human being without identity. This is self-deception – … by Hypnosis… and all possible forms of humiliation forced self-deception. …

    What else are disciplinary practices but forms of humiliation?”

    I witnessed a woman on a seminar have a mental breakdown. Since then, and we are talking about the early nineties, she ‘adores’ Quinn and caused nothing but problems for people she managed in the place she worked. Her boss is also very influenced by Quinn and between them they concocted days for ‘new’ sales skills to attend (hypnosis sessions). A lot of emphasis was put on how they should think and pressure added to make more sales. I do not know whether the classes continue, however, I do know that she tends to humiliate people and many people left and many were sacked because they did not meet her ridiculous demands. The workers at Boylesports do not comment on Dialogue as much as they used to.

    The above is an example of how Quinn tried to get followers to spread the ‘philosophy’ and no doubt, recruit new followers. Boyle had a ‘dream’ (read hypnotically influence) to open an academy for sales classes.

    Like

  84. BackAtHome

    You have very interesting comments. Isn’t it strange that those who Tibetans consider the ‘elite’ are the most damaged in their society?

    “Nevertheless, mind control works by split personality, on basis of a monstrous paradox: the victim develops the identity of a human being without identity.”

    This is what we observe in the Educo cult accept that the original personality is replaced by the sorcerer’s, Tony Quinn and females ape the ‘top brass’ female. It is very disturbing to experience and to observe, the number one reason why I grew suspicious of their techniques and motives; they accumulate information to manipulate old and new members.

    It is “self-deception – … by Hypnosis… and all possible forms of humiliation forced self-deception. …”

    “… a religion of non-violence, compassion, and world peace, but this does not reflect how monks learn their vocation.”

    There are correlations with the above in the Educo cult: One is told to be “a lover not a fighter” that what they are doing is “making this world a better place” and yet their behaviour, for instance, harming others in the group who don’t live up to the ‘Philosophy’, constant undermining and building them up when it suits them, and concentrating on getting people to spend their money on seminars or other courses taught by brainwashed followers, cannot be seen as anything else but abusive.

    ““… This complex, fear-driven programming, which transforms the victim into a mental slave with fragmented identity, only works on a further condition: the person concerned must lose his self-confidence. …”

    This aspect of the programming is well hidden from many who attend(Quinn is abusive) and the core members rarely speak about it, however, they are so conditioned by this stage it is very difficult for them to break away. They are stuck in the cult personality; undergoing years of hypnosis that stunts mental maturity. It is difficult for them to have insight into what has happened to them yet there are many who instinctively know that, not only were they conned, they were damaged in some way because of cult interference in their lives.

    The monks are trained to be non-thinking, performing constant rituals, this being the sole reason for their existence: “No ego, no problem”, I hear so-called ‘teachers’ say. And “the ego is the problem”. Can it get any more obvious?

    The difference here with Quinn is that he sees nothing wrong with having a big ego and equates it with the ability to get what you want out of life. His understanding of the mind is Freudian. You do not curtail that part of you that wants, wants, wants to be satisfied. He conditions them to obey him; however, he wants the ego to grow and prefers the more outgoing type of personality to work for him. He tends to keep a sharp eye out for anyone who has a flare for making money and credits their ‘success’ to himself.

    “If you call it “transcending the attachements of your self” then it gotta be a good thing … :(“

    The Educo cult detaches workers from their family and friends and their money! The ideal situation for him is to have members bring their families into the cult!

    Like

  85. http://www.orwell-staat.de/cms/files/mindcontrol.pdf

    “… Diese komplexe, angstgesteuerte Programmierung, die das Opfer in einen mentalen Sklaven mit zersplitterter Identität verwandelt, funktioniert jedoch nur unter einer weiteren Bedingung: Der Betroffene muss sein Selbstbewusstsein verlieren. …
    Dennoch funktioniert Bewusstseinskontrolle durch Persönlichkeitsspaltung, und zwar auf Grundlage einer ungeheuerlichen Paradoxie: Das Opfer entwickelt die Identität eines Menschen ohne Identität. Dies ist Selbstbetrug – … durch Hypnose … und alle erdenklichen Formen der Demütigung erzwungener Selbstbetrug. …”

    (translation by bing, edited by me:)
    “… This complex, fear-driven programming, which transforms the victim into a mental slave with fragmented identity, only works on a further condition: the person concerned must lose his self-confidence. … Nevertheless, mind control works by split personality, on basis of a monstrous paradox: the victim develops the identity of a human being without identity. This is self-deception – … by Hypnosis… and all possible forms of humiliation forced self-deception. …

    What else are disciplinary practices but forms of humiliation?

    What else is a person’s self-confidence but that person’s ego?

    “No ego, no problem”, I hear so-called ‘teachers’ say. And “the ego is the problem”. Can it get any more obvious?

    Are such buddhist practices and “teaching methods” nothing but medieval educational methods?

    Ah, no, it is a question of the words. If you call it “transcending the attachements of your self” then it gotta be a good thing … :(

    Like

  86. Above display problem solved with more recent browser version.

    More on the mind control issue:

    http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520269477

    “… a religion of non-violence, compassion, and world peace, but this does not reflect how monks learn their vocation. This book shows how monasteries use harsh methods to make monks of men, and how this tradition is changing … in-depth account of disciplinary practices at a Tibetan monastery in India, Michael Lempert looks closely at everyday education rites—from debate to reprimand and corporal punishment …”

    Like

  87. Sorry I am having no problem the text is completely clear and I am using Firefox here on my computer?
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/dr-robert-j-liftons-eight-criteria-for-thought-reform-and-lamaism-is-the-cultist-form-of-buddhism/

    Like

  88. I am not used to wordpress, so I can not know if the following makes sense in this context. I did a quick online research:

    The problem seems to be browser-dependent and/or platform specific. I am using firefox on a pc.

    I one case the way a video was embedded was the source of the problem (I guess just the link address instead of showing a player could resolve the problem in these cases).

    In another case the height of a post was too great (i.e. a lot of pictures) and created a so-called “known problem”. In this case changing the css configuration from “overflow: auto” to “overflow: hidden” or to “overflow:scroll” or to completely remove the “overflow: …” line was the solution.

    Another suggestion is, it may have to do with the css configuration for body, background-color. Changing that to 255, 255, 255 was a solution in one case.

    Like

  89. Sorry not sure what that is. I looked at it but did not find it when I checked. I am travelling so I suggest you write directly to WordPress requesting assistance.
    Also give the link to the post.
    Thanks
    DI

    Like

  90. @DI, sorry, but I see the thread in the same way as “BackAtHome”. A black background and the text impossible to read in a correct way.

    Like

  91. There is nothing there currently must have been issues with your computer
    DI

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  92. @Chris: The above can be a well meant advice or an invitation to make an error which could lead to the shutdown of your blog. Please be sure to meet copyright issues and to stay informed about them. The laws are changing over time. What at present time is legal could be a copyright infringement tomorrow. I just read that the EU is considering a change regarding links to copyright protected online sources.

    @Dialogue Ireland: From time to time I visit this thread to see, if something new was posted. The last weeks, the lower 2/3 of the thread shows a black background and is almost impossible to read. Is there a reason for this?

    Like

  93. Have you ever thought about adding a little bit more
    than just your articles? I mean, what you say is important and all.
    Nevertheless think about if you added some great photos
    or videos to give your posts more, “pop”! Your content is excellent but with images and videos,
    this site could undeniably be one of the greatest in its niche.
    Awesome blog!

    Like

  94. In a previous comment I called attention to a number of side effects while attending seminars and ‘therapy’ sessions with M. Forde and Aideen Cowman. I believe that No. 5 “Occasional blackouts that would go totally unnoticed unless I was in a situation that demanded my attention and so brought back to my senses by the person with me.”

    These ‘blackouts’ (switching into the hypnotic state/unconscious attention, are a result of very deep hypnosis (having no sense of self or surroundings unless there are sporadic breakthroughs) that was practiced on me by members of the Educo cult (Tony Quinn, Aideen Cowman, Margaret Forde and Martin Ford.) I did not know, at that time, that this was their intention; however, on reflection I can recall each event.

    As we know, this state can also be used by the hypnotist to project pictures and colours onto the mind. It has on occasion been used to frighten with audible growling words.

    Like

  95. Did it have 2 links? If so it would be delayed. It is up now.

    Like

  96. I left a comment on “IAHM, aka Tony Quinn courses, the campaign continues taking advantage of vulnerable job seekers.”

    It has not appeared yet in your column of comments.

    Like

  97. Very helpful information. I found the following particularly interesting.

    “If a person is unaware of being in trance, or is unfamiliar or unconvinced of the phenomenon of hypnotic enhancement of perception, fantasy and suggestibility, then that person is likely to attribute the vividness and intensity of the trance experience to some special characteristic of the message and/or communicator. That is, the person links his/her feelings of intensity with what has been said or who has said it, not with how (ie. hypnotically) it was said. The message is therefore experienced as “more real” or “more true” than other messages, and the communicator of the message is endowed with extraordinary (or even supernatural) characteristics or skills.”

    The above totally explains the euphoria of the Educo cult attenders. I sincerely hope they read this. Getting rid of the ‘negative’ past is used to empty their minds of past lessons. Wisdom from past experience is not a request you will hear very often. “One’s fund of general information (e.g. philosophy, comparative religion and history) can be vital in resisting manipulation.”

    I made a difficult decision in recent months because of the following three. I am so glad I did.

    “If a message, book or lecture is difficult to understand, repeating the central points in one’s own words might help (Andersen & Zimbardo, 1980). Ask questions. If the answer is equally or more puzzling, a mental “beware” alarm should sound. The same alarm should go off if the answer is something like “well, you will understand more later” or “of course you can’t understand now, you’re too [nonspiritual, unenlightened, intellectual, ignorant, materialistic, rigid, unaware, unconnected with your feelings, etc.].”

    “Groups or individuals that pressure people to reveal personal information may be acting unethically.”

    “Think back to situations in which you have felt pressured or covertly influenced. How did it feel? In retrospect, what were some possible warning signs (e.g. disorientation, confusion, anxiety, guilt, sadness, embarassment) that a deception was about to occur? These signs can be “warning bells” to protect against future deceptions.”

    One lesson I have learnt is to trust my instincts.

    Like

  98. Sorry, the above link is so hitting the nail on the head I want to quote it:

    “In order to influence or brainwash people, the following methods work best: isolate them in new surroundings apart from old friends or reference-points, provide them with instant acceptance from a seemingly loving group, keep them away from competing or critical ideas, provide an authority figure that everyone seems to acknowledge as having some special skill or awareness, provide a philosophy that seems logical and appears to answer all or the most important questions in life, structure all or most activities so that there is little time for privacy or independent action or thought, provide a sense of “us” versus “them,” promise instant or imminent solutions to deep or long-term problems, and employ covert or disguised hypnotic techniques. Motivation is an important issue. A subject’s motivation can range from loneliness and mild depression to being at a point of transition in life; from searching for spirituality, altruistic relationships or deeper meaning to impatience with or resistance to “conventional” religious or psychotherapeutic routes of discovery”

    This references to publications from academic researchers. Searching for their names reveals more material on this subject.

    Like

  99. Searching “DownTheCrookedPath” revealed another, similar scheme for possible mind control:

    http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.de/2011/03/conditions-for-mind-control.html

    Like

  100. “DowntheCrookedPath” has some interesting articles one of them titled “Wandering Britches”. I heard many times in the Educo cult that Tony Quinn had appeared to people. He also appears in dreams.

    When will followers realise that it is other people’s energy that the likes of Nydahl and Tony Quinn are using for themselves? It is important to learn how to protect ourselves from having energy drawn from us. They are thieves and alleged sexual predators.

    I totally agree that “If such a ‘unity’ is forced on another person against the person’s free will, I think it can also be regarded as a violation of privacy.”

    Like

  101. One of the points made in “What is hypnotherapy? – SpunOut.ie” is that‎ “You are deeply relaxed during hypnosis, but you are also aware. Therefore, a hypnotist cannot make you do something that you do not want to do.”

    This is not true. There are definite stages and Quinn’s ‘pressure on the upper arm’ test proves this.

    It is also untrue that all hypnotists “Prepares client to enter hypnotic state by explaining how hypnosis works and what client will experience. Tests subject to determine degree of physical and emotional suggestibility.”

    How does a person prove they were under hypnosis? I monitored and took note of changes in feelings, thoughts and behaviour following therapy sessions. I recalled disjointed conversations, visual memories, physical movements and, on two occasions, physical pain during the process of going in and coming out of hypnosis. There were reasons why I was being “tested”; to find out to what degree I was unconscious of pain while in an unconscious state. This fact should raise serious questions about the continuation of hypnosis being used in therapy.

    Maybe there are ethical hypnotists, however, my experiences tell me that it is done by sleight of hand; I have never volunteered to go under hypnosis to a degree that I did not know what was being said or done and if they had asked permission I would have said no. One is left with a sense of being violated. Hypnotists and others who are involved with influencing or gathering information/research need to understand, once and for all, that what they are doing can be experienced as abusive and has emotional consequences.

    Following the hypnosis sessions the response was an avoidance to discuss what happened. There is nothing therapeutic about it and may lead to anger and violent thoughts towards the abuser if not violent behaviour. In a cultic group this violence is directed outwardly towards the ‘enemy’, however, the degree of anger at the cult member’s attempts to control can backfire on them and they become the target in the sense that the abused wants the truth to come out and justice done. Religious cultic groups have no place in societies that constitutionally recognises human rights.

    “A person who is hypnotized displays certain unusual characteristics and propensities, compared with a non-hypnotized subject, most notably heightened suggestibility and responsiveness.”

    This is the part of the mind they access whether it is stage hypnosis or so called cultic therapeutic hypnosis, the agenda is to influence against a person’s will.

    Like

  102. One more additions:

    The source “About Tony Quinn leaving out the Voodoo and Merlquinn” pointed to by Angie state, that Quinn obtained “numerous qualifications … Among these are … majoring in Psychotherapy and a Doctorate in Clinical Hypnotherapy (State Authorized, California, USA)”. So what is hypnotherapy? Wikipedia states:

    “Hypnotherapy is a form of psychotherapy used to create unconscious change in the patient in the form of new responses, thoughts, attitudes, behaviors or feelings. It is undertaken with a subject in hypnosis.” Isn’t that exactly what is happening in cults?

    The rest of the Wikipedia article on hypnotherapy shows more parallels to descriptions of experiences in cults.

    Like

  103. Reply to Angie:

    Again a lot of useful information. Unfortunately my time is limited, so I am focussing on a few issues only here. They are related to Pt. 7 Doctrine over person (= “Member’s personal experiences are subordinated … any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit … the group”).

    1) Re-Programming

    “… The idea of being inseparable from everything and everyone else … to become ‘enlightened’ … is unsustainable and dangerous in the culture of the west. … personal choices are disregarded … Life without worry … a ‘living in the now’, a more enlightened way to be. … years of … conditioning … Even if … moments of clarity about what is actually happening … very likely they will revert back to the cult mind-set … an enlightened mind and accepted as such even when there are signs of loss of memory/blankness, an inability to think … Occasional blackouts …”

    My research about buddhism came to the conclusion that there are very diverse definitions of “what” enlightenment is. But in my opinion it became noticeable “how” enlightenment is. My conclusion was, the ego, self or whatever you want to call it, can not be enlightened because after enlightenment has taken place, that ego or self will not exist anymore. If that’s not a doctrine being more important than the person … I came to the conclusion that enlightenment is comparable to a suicide not of the body but of the soul. In my opinion trying to force that on other people should be regarded as a crime.

    I agree, loss of memory/blankness, blackouts and not respecting that not every person likes to be one with any other person does not fit our culture. It is important to understand, that there is no “truth” behind this idea of oneness. It is just one way to look at reality. If such a ‘unity’ is forced on another person against the person’s free will, I think it can also be regarded as a violation of privacy.

    In my opinion the whole enlightenment lie is just a trick to get people to sacrifice control of their own lifes for a non-existent ideal. Instead they become more or less happy servants to other people. For another example take a look at the living conditions in ‘enlightened’ old tibet. They had slaves and you want your slaves to be ‘dumbed down’, uncritical, you don’t want them to be in the conscious mindstate, right? Some of the footage of that era to me looks like a whole society in a trance-like mindstate.

    2) Manipulation without consent

    “… When it suits their purpose they will induce a trance state … Tony Quinn is known to have the ability to put someone into an unconscious state where the sense of self totally disappears; the zombie like state of trance …”

    This is a very important statement. Any more proof for this (for example reports about personal experiences of other members, articles about this cult etc.) could be helpful, so that someday we can show to the public – just by the number of examples – that such techniques in fact do exist and can be misused easily by cultists.

    3) Symptoms

    With the following quotations, I see very strong parallels to experiences of other people in the context of buddhist, hindu, yoga, shamanic and other new age groups:

    “… sense of self totally disappears; the zombie like state of trance …” – I remember a description of an unconscious/trance mindstate given by Ms. Riepe in the context of Nydahl.

    “… dependency on ‘the energy’ …” – Some followers of Nydahl are excited about the ‘energy’ that surrounds their leader. The word ‘dependency’ is important here. Some people would even use the word ‘addiction’ for such dependant relationships. And again a contradiction: dependency is quite the opposite of being free from everything, completely unattached.

    “… participants fall to the floor …” – I witnessed that in two different church services in protestant churches. (One of the reasons why I once wrote, it seems the protestant church is infected already. Or was that always part of protestant church services?)

    “… people believing they are stuck to the chair and cannot move …” – I experienced that to some degree in a lecture of Nydahl myself.

    “… breathing that stops altogether, so periods of time where there is no intake or output of breath …” – I am experiencing that myself sometimes.

    “… a sensation of energy entering the feet and moving up through the body …” – I remember a woman describing an energy entering the body in the context of a shamanic ‘healer’. She described it as a ‘fireball’ rolling in. I myself had a vision in combination with the according sensation of a lightning striking at a lecture of Nydahl.

    “… can remove feelings of responsibility … believe that everything is taken care of by ‘the energy’” – One of the more prominent examples for this would be buddhist Ösel Tendzin, who “… Tendzin, including the board of directors of Vajradhatu, knew for two years that Tendzin was HIV-positive and sexually active, but kept silent … Tendzin had asked Trungpa (remark: his teacher) what he should do … Trungpa’s reply was that as long as he did his Vajrayana purification practices, it did not matter, because they would not get the disease. … continued to have unprotected sex with his students, without informing them … transmitted HIV to a student who later died of AIDS … Tendzin’s answer, in short, was that he had obeyed the guru …” (quotation from Wikipedia)

    “… ‘automatic’ physical movements, for instance, where the unconscious ‘energy’ is lifting the arm … heartbeat may become irregular … automatic release of energy on the request of Quinn which is uses for whatever purpose he chooses … a feeling of being in a dream world …” – I believe these symptoms and the above can be related to what in a certain context is called “kundalini”. Maybe someone with more background knowledge in this field could point the connection out to us?

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  104. Reply to BackAtHome

    I agree with what you say about the conscious and unconscious mind states and I would say, easier to influence the unconscious when leaders of cults encourage participants to expand their awareness. The idea of being inseparable from everything and everyone else is seen as necessary to become ‘enlightened’ and a more advanced state of being. I believe it is unsustainable and dangerous in the culture of the west.

    You comment there are “more techniques to evoke the unconscious mindstate”

    “1) Very long, very boring or very slow talking up to the point where a person stops trying to follow the talking and drift off into the own inner world. (I experienced this in lectures by Lama Nydahl)”

    I am also familiar with this, in fact, Tony Quinn made the point that when boredom sets in IT (supposedly some magical power of life) works better so we can assume that the hypnotic effect is stronger.

    “2) Mentally undemanding, repetitive, exhausting work. (descriptions of that can be found in context of Sogyal)”

    I agree; undemanding, repetitive and the work hours increasing. It is the perfect opportunity for core group workers, in high positions, to be critical and undermine sense of self-worth. When it suits their purpose they will induce a trance state. I witnessed two men working in a trance state, they were totally focused and it appeared that their peripheral sight was not active. Tony Quinn is known to have the ability to put someone into an unconscious state where the sense of self totally disappears; the zombie like state of trance that is very noticeable.

    I agree with “3) Suggesting disregard for critical reasoning up to disregard for the conscious mindstate in general, for example “getting rid of ‘negative’ thought”. (I think this is what Chris Chandler named “dumbing down the west”; some more examples: “the ego is the problem”, “love what you do instead of expecting to do what you love”, “expectations are the cause of disappointment” etc.)”

    In particular “love what you do instead of expecting to do what you love”, “expectations are the cause of disappointment” etc.)”

    Yes, personal choices are disregarded and working in a trance state can be very pleasant. Life without worry is also suggested and put across as if it is a ‘living in the now’, a more enlightened way to be.

    Even though Quinn sells his “formula that never fails” there ARE disappointments when people fail and financial consequences. He would have them believe that failure is due to their inability to believe 100%. A lot of emphasis is put on WHAT THEY WANT FROM LIFE; it is a culture/cult that encourages greed, accumulating to give a perception of wealth and success and false perception of abilities (one young man wanted to be a musician. Unfortunately, he had no musical ability). You could also see this dependency on ‘the energy’ would be very stressful for someone in dire need. Those who work for Quinn have no conscious about taking money from people they know have very little or who have put themselves in debt because of a promise of future success.

    You say: “It is helpful to critically reflect individual experiences in such a group while being in the conscious mindstate, while at least temporarily disregarding the ‘positive’ experiences while being in the unconscious mindstate. Maybe this not possible any more, if a person is completely converted to such a group’s mentality.”

    Yes, I agree. I did reflect on what was happening and it helped to move towards a decision to break away from the cult.

    Long-term members have undergone years of hypnotically induced conditioning. They would find it extremely difficult to leave as they have committed to a life of service to the ‘guru’ Quinn and are also dependent on him and ‘top brass’ for their ‘well-being’. Those who earn the money for the cult are wrapped up in the idea of being ‘successful’. Even if they were to have a conscious breakthrough (moments of clarity about what is actually happening) it is very likely they will revert back to the cult mind-set. They are conditioned to ignore ‘the light bulb moments’; if they were allowed to surface they would bring about feelings of guilt and disloyalty towards the ‘guru’ or overwhelming anger.

    You ask: “Can you describe a few more details about “to manipulate physical actions and emotional states” and “even when asleep … energy manipulations” and “manipulated the chakras”?

    I have already mentioned how work can be used to perform physical actions in a trance state and there is also the effect he has on people who attended his seminars. I have seen participants fall to the floor shaking; instances of people believing they are stuck to the chair and cannot move till he releases them; ‘automatic’ physical movements, for instance, where the unconscious ‘energy’ is lifting the arm.

    Quinn does not mention the word hypnosis so the demonstrations of relaxation/ recalling information/ speaking from ‘the self’/the real you, are seen as an AMAZING testimony to a higher force rather than the result of hypnotically induced ‘philosophy’ and energy manipulation in action. It’s the first time I have come across a hypnotist/energy manipulator who is lauded as a magician. It testifies to the state of mind he creates with carefully chosen words to relax and to activate the imagination.

    The heartbeat may become irregular. Breathing, as in yoga deep breathing that stops altogether, so periods of time where there is no intake or output of breath; automatic release of energy on the request of Quinn which is uses for whatever purpose he chooses. He emphasises that it is important to come out of your “comfort zone” and experience life; in other words, I would say, be open to his manipulations. ‘Fear’ was seen as a negative emotion. During the night there was a sensation of energy entering the feet and moving up through the body; it induced a deep feeling of relaxation.

    Even when the seminar is over there is a feeling of being in a dream world (the perfect world that Quinn is creating); It can remove feelings of responsibility towards family life in the sense that one comes to believe that everything is taken care of by ‘the energy’. Emphasis is also put on ‘not worrying’ about anything. The advice is to ‘just be yourself’ (the trance state self) and everything will work out perfectly. We are the amazing healers of the human race. In reality a lot of the people who attend his seminars cannot shut up about Quinn due to his hypnotic programme that turns them into recruiters. Obvious effects are:

    1. A lot of time is spent reminiscing about ‘amazing’ experiences with the ‘guru’ and his ‘therapists’. I remember getting irritated with the repetition of conversations going on in my head. When asked on a seminar, Quinn explained this (constant chatter) as a consequence of ‘relaxation’. It is obvious to me that doing meditation that is geared towards clearing all thought, the mind will be set in motion to return to the imbedded programming which reinforces the mind-set of the cult.

    2. There is no awareness of the critical faculties being compromised; confusion is understood to be the bridge to ‘getting it’; an enlightened mind and accepted as such even when there are signs of loss of memory/blankness, an inability to think.

    3. Physical disorientation that can make simple tasks seem too difficult.

    4. Conversing and forgetting what was said instantly. This was understood to be a positive outcome. It was seen as having the ability to make other peoples requests come about. Of course, nothing was mentioned about it being the state of mind that is easily influenced.

    5. Occasional blackouts that would go totally unnoticed unless I was in a situation that demanded my attention and so brought back to my senses by the person with me.

    Taking note of chakra areas I realised that the areas of the body affected by energy manipulation corresponded to them. Quinn’s main focus was on the stomach area, what he referred to as the ‘gold mine’.

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  105. I think that is very helpful information. Thank you. I will try to summarize your comments and connect a few dots.

    We can be in at least two different mind states, while being awake:

    1) The conscious mindstate, which is capable of critical reasoning, free will, conscious perception and memorization and the separation between oneself (ego-awareness) and the environment, the moment.
    2) The unconscious mindstate, which is capable of experiencing moment by moment and being open to new information, but is less capable or even unable to critically question experiences or information and to realize the separation between oneself and such experiences or information.

    One way to access the unconscious mindstate is through deep relaxation, so different techniques can be used to evoke the needed relaxation. These techniques can include yoga, meditation, body relaxation (healing work, my remark: wellness etc. ?).

    I want to add, I think there are more techniques to evoke the unconscious mindstate in other persons, for example:

    1) Very long, very boring or very slow talking up to the point where a person stops trying to follow the talking and drift off into the own inner world. (I experienced this in lectures by Lama Nydahl)
    2) Mentally undemanding, repetitive, exhausting work. (descriptions of that can be found in context of Sogyal)
    3) Suggesting disregard for critical reasoning up to disregard for the conscious mindstate in general, for example “getting rid of ‘negative’ thought”. (I think this is what Chris Chandler named “dumbing down the west”; some more examples: “the ego is the problem”, “love what you do instead of expecting to do what you love”, “expectations are the cause of disappointment” etc.)

    Apparently there are supporting factors for evoking the unconscious mindstate in a person:

    1) Whole groups of people can simultaneously be in the unconscious mindstate. Being in such a group increases the probability that the person itself enters the – in this case unconscious – mindstate of the whole group.
    2) With increasing time duration (several days seminars) of applying the techniques for evoking the unconscious mindstate the probability increases that a person enters the unconscious mindstate.
    3) With increasing intensity (for example person-to-person, “mind-snapping”) of applying the techniques for evoking the unconscious mindstate the probability increases that a person enters the unconscious mindstate.

    So far both mindstates can be useful or necessary for different purposes. None of these mindstates is evil by itself.

    It gets cultish, when the unconscious mindstate is misused. This can happen in different ways:

    1) For being able to “re-program” a person by hypnosis or suggestions, that person needs to be in the second, the unconscious mindstate. In deep unconscious mindstates there is a chance that a person accepts any information as own “reality” or “truth” even after returning to the conscious mindstate. This opens the possibility of implanting values and beliefs without the person’s consent.
    2) Implanting a group mentality, including for example:
    – only the group matters
    – external enemies (other religions, skin-colours, people non-conformant to the group’s values)
    – requesting disregard for family and former friends
    – in extreme aiming at the destruction of the persons’s former personality
    3) Exploitation in different forms, for example:
    – pressure to spend money (attend seminars, buy books, donate money etc.)
    – pressure to donate work
    – sexual approaches

    The topic of de-programming a cult’s re-programming would not be connected to this thread. Work in the field of de-programming has been done and is published.

    Apparently in quite a few cases, the first indication was incongruences or contradictions when the behaviour of higher-ranking group members did not reflect the teachings of the group. It is helpful to critically reflect individual experiences in such a group while being in the conscious mindstate, while at least temporarily disregarding the ‘positive’ experiences while being in the unconscious mindstate. Maybe this not possible any more, if a person is completely converted to such a group’s mentality.

    I do have one more request: Can you describe a few more details about “to manipulate physical actions and emotional states” and “even when asleep … energy manipulations” and “manipulated the chakras”?

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  106. “Angie’s comments made into a post to help Educoists break the pattern of control”
    Angie, on August 5, 2012 at 10:20 am said:

    The following is a comment I sent in while coming to terms with what had happened in therapy.

    “What I was always wary of was the control they had over people and this is why I stayed on the periphery of the group but I noticed that I was not immune to their influence. My attendance was sporadic compared to many who attended and any attempts to include me in the core group came to nought as, as much as I was susceptible to suggestion and hypnosis, reflection on these experiences reminded me of how uncomfortable I felt unless I was in a trance state. I learned a lot about myself in the process. While the therapy was taking a specific direction I was internally going in another and this is what woke me up to what was actually happening. I found myself at odds so many times with the effects of the therapy and the therapist I decided, at that time, not to disclose what I was truly feeling. The influence put on me to go on a seminar, even though I would have had to borrow the money, was very invasive.

    People will ask why did I go back to the therapist if I felt so uneasy about it? The only answer I could come up with was hypnotic suggestions keeping me tied in some way. I will not go into specifics but I will say that my life was in turmoil, far worse than it was before I went to her. I know that I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown if not actually having one. I felt that she was extracting every last bit of energy out of me towards the end and Cowman did the same. I felt robbed of my core self. Their willingness to do this for their own ends is frightening. My eyes were opened to how selfish they were. They were blind to everything else except getting people on seminars regardless of how they did it. This is what I experienced. I now understand that this was brought about deliberately so Tony Quinn could step in and, basically, take over my life. I also realised that money was their main objective and I would be fleeced of every penny I had.

    The level of caring about others practically disappeared but I always felt guilty about this. Realising my responsibility towards others kept me from falling to far into that mind-set.

    Thinking about the ‘great’ experiences was mind consuming. I did resent, however, how it invaded practically all of my mind. It was hard to separate past experiences that had nothing to do with them without the therapeutic mindset invading them. I had to take back my past as it had happened and it was very freeing to work through it myself without their influence and, later, with a counsellor.
    What seemed to be important to them is looking good and coming across very positive about life. The problem is it usually included talking about Quinn or the centre and recruiting others was promoted in the classes.
    It was a hard battle to engage in but I’m very happy that I persisted.

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  107. Meeting Tony Quinn for the first time, through a member of his cult, I distinctly remember having a sensation of nausea in my stomach while he was present in the room. When he walked out I had an emotional sense of being rejected, a feeling that was difficult for me to understand at the time as I had not spoken to him or knew who he was. (I can relate to Disappointed Educoist’s reaction although I was not physically sick. It felt like negative energy being dumped on me). I did not know that I was socialising with a cult member who had instigated the meeting and had no introduction to other members.

    Having not been introduced I never knew that it was Tony Quinn and years later I attended one of his seminars. The word hypnosis was never mentioned yet he freely used his techniques to ‘access the unconscious mind’ and reprogramme those attending with his ‘philosophy’ (make this world a better place etc.,) and they were seduced/hypnotised into accepting it in such a manner that they believed it was of their own free will. To make it easier to access the unconscious mind the seminar was set up to have many hours of ‘relaxation’, what eastern religions refer to as meditation. During this period the group ‘leaders’ would have us do yoga and group ‘healing’ work. We listened to the usual stuff about getting rid of ‘negative’ thought, however, I now understand that it is ALL thought Quinn wanted to clear from the mind; the ideal state to ‘tune in’ to talks and visualisations that he gave, for lengthy periods, during the seminar. The trance state achieved, one is less inclined to question what is happening and so, relating to Eastern religions, the state of consciousness/living in the now, makes it easier for Quinn and others working for him to manipulate physical actions and emotional states. Even when asleep they did not escape his energy manipulations.

    The seminars would start on the Friday evening and by Wednesday evening those attending would have reached a state of mind that was ‘in love’ with ‘life’ and some of them ‘in love’ with Quinn. This was prime time for recruiting and the cult males to ‘connect’ with the females. I, like many other women, was approached by Quinn in a sexual manner. In the early years it was very subtle and one would not suspect they were being targeted for sex; the most obvious message being that they are ‘special’ and to socialise with each other rather than waste their ‘energy’ on anyone who rejected the new persona; retaining and living from the installed mind controlling programmes was more important than getting on with friends and family members. Unquestioning about how they came to feel elated and “better than they had ever felt before” as Quinn would put it, it is clear that most people are susceptible to degrees of hypnosis and yet they are totally unaware that it has occurred.

    I now understand that he manipulated the chakras also. To prevent the dissipation of ‘love’ they were encouraged to attend ‘relaxation’ classes in Eccles Street, the sole purpose being to continue reinforcing Quinn’s mind-set and also brought in a lot of money for the cult.

    You say: “Other people say that’s just magical thinking.” To gain more information on how followers are influenced to think this way, you may be interested in reading:

    About Tony Quinn leaving out the Voodoo and Merlquinn
    Susan Morrice and the New Age ~ Unwrap Yourself
    Cult Book – The Magic In You, makes Tony Quinn into Merlin the magician who found the oil

    You ask: “If you say a person “uses hypnosis on her clients without consent”, can you describe how that is done or name some references regarding this subject?”

    As mentioned earlier ‘relaxation’ was used as a matter of course in the Educo cult and some tutors/‘therapists’ would use it during class and as part of the therapy session. This was achieved by ‘staying in the energy’, a felt sense that one learns to accept as being totally relaxed. As the ‘relaxation’ progresses there is every possibility that they will reach a point of unconsciousness where nothing that is said by the tutor/‘therapist’ is heard by the conscious mind and this information goes directly on to the unconscious. How does one give consent to this?

    This information may then be perceived as ‘reality’ and even written down, in certain circumstances, and understood as previously learned or thought about and accepted, morally and ethically, by the conscious mind. In other words it is who they become and not perceived as a separate installed persona. What woke me up to what was happening was a feeling of incongruence with what I was saying in ‘therapy’; highly suspicious of the ‘therapists’ motives I ultimately rejected it. As I have not done any research so far, I do not know of any references.

    Your enquiry about the snapping sound; I can only say that I heard this sound in my head when the ‘therapist’ drew all of my attention on a ‘result’ she wanted to bring about for her client. She did not ask my permission to do this nor was I given any time to consider what she was saying. I felt she was using my energy to such an extent that I snapped. On my way home I felt frightened and vulnerable to being used in such a manner. It felt like an assault on my mind.

    I sincerely hope that “such descriptions can aid us in recognizing when such a manipulation is tried – so it can also be a protection for ourselves and others.”

    In short, I do not know how anyone can protect themselves in such an environment and it is far better to avoid such groups whatever guise they operate under. To keep clear of such influences I pray to God and ask protection from the Archangel Michael and my Guardian Angel on a daily basis.

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  108. This is still connected to “Mystical Manipulation” (Pt. 2):

    Angie, thank you. I just had a short look at the references. It was too much information to read everything, but I remember similar descriptions from the Nydahl thread at RickRoss’ forum and the Behind the thangkas website about Sogyal. The similarities are so obvious!

    I do completely understand and encourage anyone’s wish to not reveal the personal identity. When asking about people reporting about hypnosis or for a description of a “snapping sound in the brain”, I was not interested in anyone’s identity. But apparently a few people think that some kind of technique could be used by cult leaders or members to mentally influence other people. Other people say that’s just magical thinking. The problem is, we have no proof, only a few descriptions of personal experiences. My hope is, the more such descriptions are (anonymously) published, the more other people can relate to such descriptions and maybe contribute by saying “Yes, I experienced something very similar. In my case it was …”. I also think such descriptions can aid us in recognizing when such a manipulation is tried – so it can also be a protection for ourselves and others.

    If you say a person “uses hypnosis on her clients without consent”, can you descrive how that is done or name some references regarding this subject? I am really just trying to collect more information. I am not interested in people’s names and I am not interested in learning such techniques. But I hope to one day be able to show that such techniques do exist and to show how we can recognize if cult leaders or members make use of such techniques and how we can protect ourselves against such influences.

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  109. It is obvious how Quinn manipulated the commenters emotions while she was on the seminar. As you read more of Disappointed Educoist comments you will see how he still managed to involve her in ‘healing’ work despite her uneasiness about involving herself. It takes a strong mind to question and finally accept that abusive behaviour is part and parcel of the Educo experience and the resulting consequences.

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  110. The following is an example of comments:

    Disappointed Educoist
    Submitted on 2012/05/29 at 12:32 pm
    To Angie: It took me quite a long time to realise that the rejection I was subjected to was a good thing. I will never forget an incident where I bumped into Tony in quite an unexpected way after the seminars and he completely blanked me and refused to even acknowledge me. Even though I was in the depths of depression I was shocked at his callous behaviour towards me considering I had paid vast sums of money for his seminars. It was very apparent that I was not coping well at the time and the lack of compassion for me was truly shocking. I still remained on the periphery of everything as this kind of behaviour would never endear me to anyone. I realised that they didn’t have my best interests at heart and I agree you would help someone who was suffering in way that I was. I actually think is they don’t know what to do with anyone who is suffering after a seminar and it wasn’t encouraged. I have been led to believe that they have recently started to set up support networks for people returning from seminars but it my case it is too little and far to late.
    Yes the men in the organisation are something else. I was abused by one very close to TQ and another attempted to groom me but as I said previously I just wasn’t interested. I reported the abuse in the organisation but nothing to this day has been done and I am not the only person this happened to. Again it was totally out of character for me. I have avoided physical intimacy for years after this experience although it wouldn’t be the only reason. It is only recently again I feel ready to allow any intimacy into my life. It is amazing how many people just put their heads into the sand so to speak and refuse to deal with the number of accusations that are flying around. Not everyone who reports these things are making it up that is impossible but they are very good at making you feel it is your fault, but that is all part of how they keep people in. I am thankful that I am no longer involved and I have been able to put my life back together.
    The search I refer to is my spiritual search and the answers for me. I know that they are different for everyone. I am grateful that I had the strength to get away and to be able to put this experience behind me.

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  111. First of all, thank you for your interest. You may have noticed that I do not go into detail about personal experiences; suffice to say I am in agreement with what you say and can relate to your experiences. I have come to the conclusion that Tony Quinn’s ‘philosophy’ borrows heavily from the Hindu religion similar to Tibetan Lamaism. The sexual element, how he related to women in the group, was also obvious. What I realised very quickly while being in his company is that one has to view what transpires as projected phenomena. In the early days he projected himself as ‘spiritual’, the reincarnation of Jesus, to his close followers in particular; some even saw him as God. Such an image was far easier to accept in the 1960/70’s than it is now. Quinn has changed his image quite a number of times since, however, actions speak louder than words and his main goal became apparent; to make as much money as he possibly could by using his abilities to con people who attended his seminars into building his business interests; accumulation of money and self-glory are the driving forces and his illegal involvement in INE is testimony to his belief that he feels entitled to manipulate people’s lives and con them out of their money.

    ‘MESSIAH’ IS FINALLY DUE IN COURT TO ANSWER MONEY QUESTIONS

    “1) Do you know of any research or other references about attendees of such seminars. Have more persons confirmed that they experienced something like hypnosis, some sudden change of state of mind, followed by the impression of loosing their energy and eventually depression?”

    I agree this is an area wide open for research. The previous core group, those he depended on to start his ‘religion’ and who were rejected by him because they were in disagreement about the direction he was taking them, are not talking openly about their experiences. Quinn’s excuse was that they had not evolved enough as human ‘beings’ and so forfeited their right to be part of Educo. An interesting piece of information I learnt is that followers are not accepted into the cult unless they get on their knees in front of Quinn and it would not take much of a stretch of the imagination to understand they would have made a promise to serve him exclusively and not to divulge anything that happened in his cult. Information has leaked out that you can read about in Dialogue that testifies somewhat to your question. You could start with

    “The Ex Educoist Dialogues ~ putting on the fog lights!” and
    “Angie’s comments made into a post to help Educoists break the pattern of control”

    A recently set-up off shoot is called “The Psychology Centre” which you will find on the internet. It is run by people who are totally under Quinn’s influence even if they say otherwise. Willing followers of Quinn’s for years they would find it extremely difficult to ‘teach’ anything other than material that heavily involves his ‘philosophy’. Margaret Forde uses hypnosis on her clients without consent.

    “2) Can you describe that “snapping sound in the brain” a little more in detail?”

    As I mentioned earlier, I do not go into detail that may unintentionally disclose who I am. I have been thinking along the same lines as you; there is need for research and how to go about this in an educational environment, I do not know. Usually colleges that offer courses with research includes study of subjects of interest, however, I would rather concentrate on the Educo phenomena specifically and how it relates to other cults and relevant religious belief systems. How can this be accomplished without testimony from previous Tony Quinn/Educo followers? Are they willing to share their experiences either anonymously or under a pseudonym that protects their identity? Who will advertise to reach as many as possible to inform them of the research?

    Collective ‘positive’ experiences are best understood when individuals explain how they are influenced in the cult environment and the short/long-term consequences physically, mentally and spiritually.

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  112. Angie, this is very interesting, I think. Maybe connected to Pt. 2 Mystical Manipulation or Pt. 7 Doctrine Over Person?

    What you describe about a hypnotically induced ‘positive’ state of mind in the Educo cult seems to be similar to the idea of constant blissful mindstates in Buddhism or Hindu/New Age. I have myself experienced sudden mood swings, sometimes preceded by very short intense energy sensations, in connection with buddhist/Hindu/new age people. To a large degree these fit your description.

    1) Do you know of any research or other references about attendees of such seminars. Have more persons confirmed that they experienced something like hypnosis, some sudden change of state of mind, followed by the impression of loosing their energy and eventually depression?

    The more examples we have, the more likely the public will some day begin to research what is happening in such groups.

    2) Can you describe that “snapping sound in the brain” a little more in detail?

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  113. This is why so many who came away from the seminars eventually ended up suffering with depression. ‘Top brass’ and mind controlled members of the cult will deny this, however, they do not have the courage to have an open debate about Tony Quinn’s use of ‘energy’ and hypnosis. They are not honest and truthful about his control over their lives and minds. In fact, the worst effected are incapable of discerning how he has tricked them into giving over their lives and money. Those ‘in the know’ are playing the same game.

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  114. The persons energy is drawn on to such an extent it is very debilitating. This type of abuse has to be recognised.

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  115. The ‘positive’ state of mind I refer to is when it is hypnotically induced, against ones will, to bring about a request for someone else, and experienced as very intense, to a degree that there is a snapping sound in the brain.

    In this case it has nothing to with Christ or Buddha, nothing to do with God; it has to do with the Edcuo cult ‘top brass’ wanting to be seen as ‘successful’ for ‘bringing about’ what their clients want. It was about pushing the mind to the edge of sanity. Quinn used to say that there was a thin line between genius and madness. This is the excuse they use for what they do.

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  116. Angie: True. Though, sometimes there’s just the option to make a decision. Such a decision can cause heightened reactions in one’s life and depending on the nature of such a decision sooner or later people will appear who just want to alter, undo or destroy that which one has decided to choose for himself or herself. They made fun of christ and nailed him to the cross. Such is the nature of mankind, still, and buddhism/lamaism is no exception to that.

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  117. BackAtHome:

    I will catch up on the information sent by you and Dialogue. I just want to make a point that being overwhelmed by positive emotions/cult induced to bring about ‘positive results’ can also cause heightened emotional and physical reactions that ultimately have a negative effect.

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  118. Thanks for clarifying.

    One more comment for another issue:

    Angie, on April 21, 2014 at 6:52 pm said:
    “… the point of Vajrayana is to always keep the ‘tantrika’ in a state of fear, anxiety and panic. … The teacher says X and then says Y when you get ‘comfortable’ and then says Z after that and on and on … the methodology … is to … never letting your have any ground, This led to … the state of constant anxiety within the group and teacher student situation … emptying the mind of the importance that these relationships provided in keeping us connected to life and love; our ability to care and be cared for by others … “groundlessness” state is what I came to understand as having no connection to anything or anyone, a disconnection from life itself that can totally destroy previous foundations of education, life lessons, moral and ethical standards and love for family …”

    I see connections to:
    Pt. 2 Mystical Manipulation “… manipulation of experiences …”
    Pt. 3 Demand for Purity “… members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection …”
    Pt. 5 Sacred Science “… group’s doctrine … to be the ultimate Truth … Truth is not to be found outside the group …”
    Pt. 7 Doctrine over person “… Member’s personal experiences are subordinated … any contrary experiences must be denied …”
    Pt. 8 Dispensing of existence “… the outside world loses all credibility …”

    It needs no explanation why completely disconnecting persons from their former life makes also excellent material for cult or sect followers.

    Looking at this from another angle: I am not a psychologist, but I just happened to stumble acros the definition of borderline syndrom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder). Just a very few quotations:

    “… instability of … interpersonal relationships and self image … idealization and devaluation of others … severe dissociation … exceptionally idealistic, joyful and loving … overwhelmed by negative emotions, experiencing … shame and humiliation (remark: Pt. 3 Demand for Purity “… induction of guilt and/or shame …”) … and panic (remark: !) … may lead to … suicidal behavior … can undermine relationships with family, friends, and co-workers … have trouble seeing a clear picture of their identity … have a hard time knowing what they value and enjoy … unsure about their long-term goals for relationships and jobs … experience feeling “empty” and “lost” … difficult for them to control the focus of their attention—to concentrate … Sometimes it is possible for another person to tell when someone … is dissociating, because their facial or vocal expressions may become flat or expressionless, or they may appear to be distracted …”

    As said, I am not a psychologist, but to me it seems traumatic experiences including unreliable behaviour of valued reference persons can cause psychological problems. Is it traumatic to have the one person you have to commit yourself to 100% keeping you in a constant state of fear, anxiety and panic? Probably. Look at the expressionless faces of some buddhist masters. Read the descriptions of victims of some buddhist groups including insults, dissociation, psychological problems, the term “brain washing”, psychiatric treatment and in extreme suicide.

    That would be Pt. 7 Doctrine over person. I can not imagine any greater subordination of “… Member’s personal experiences …”. Another example for “newspeak”: liberation=constant anxiety, total destruction and emptiness.

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  119. Just to be clear because Chris has left a comment here on a post does not mean that it is on the thread. We are only concerned here about cultism, and not the cultural implications for western thought or the loss of the critical mind in the west. Those are legitimate considerations but not for us. Chris has started her own blog and has a far reaching approach to the subject. Everything of course is related but necessarily to every thread.
    For the moment I would ask you to consider that when leaving comments in the future.
    Please use the Lamaist discussion thread for those observations.
    another audio to respond to:

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  120. Okay, connecting the comments with Pt. 1 Milieu control:

    Chris Chandler, on April 3, 2014 at 9:02 am said:
    “… When you start to notice how often Tibetan statues are in the stage sets of the movies, part of the decor of the homes of the characters, … a group that burns books they don’t like …”

    Chris Chandler, on April 3, 2014 at 9:20 am said:
    “… unimaginably rich plutocrat … supports the Huffington Post … 14,000 articles positive about the Dalai Lama. That is 1000 articles a year, pro-Dalai Lama … not much different in the NYTimes … Most of the scandals … so common in … Lamaism are buried. … In the last six months there have been 3 articles on Dakini Power, elevating the sexual exploitation of women in Tibetan Lamaism as a great blessing …”

    It is true that the money issue and different forms of abuse are not explicitly named in Lifton’s criteria. On the other hand Lifton’s criteria seem to be somehow related to cults or sects in general and misuse or abuse of members seem to happen very often in cults or sects. Including the “newspeak”, for example exploitation=commitment, abuse=blessing, consort=master. I don’t know, is discussing these issues really not connected to this thread? I think any kind of “newspeak” is connected to:

    Pt. 2 Mystical Manipulation “… allow the leader to reinterpret events … and experiences as he or she wishes …”

    Pt. 6 Loading the Language “… to alter members’ thought processes to conform to the group’s way of thinking …”

    Pt. 7 Doctrine over person “… personal experiences are subordinated … and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group …”

    Naming a sexual consort a ‘great living master’ for example, or hoarding free labor, free money, free sex – relying on Chris Chandlers’ statements here.

    Next, if as Chris Chandler suspects there is a connection between Hinduism and Lamaism, then there could also be a connection between protagonists for Hinduism in the west and the lamaist initiative. That’s why I brought up the question about the propagation of eastern beliefs in the context of the Beatles and youth movements of the past. I can not know if from some point in history there really was a plot or if it just evolved like it did by pure chance. But if there is a plot to discover, we would then be talking about at least five or six decades. Just to show in what scales one could think in order to comprehend what is evolving here.

    Maybe the following video is useful somehow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYIcsdzS20w

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  121. In light of your excellent comment you might find this new book interesting

    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2014/04/22/mormonism-joseph-smith-and-the-sex-cult-that-led-to-his-death/

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  122. Please keep up these very insightful comments. I will be publishing the story of how Joseph Smith the founder of the Mormons went about creating a cult of sexual depravity which undermined the morals of his movement and led to his death, not as martyr but as a wanton womaniser.

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  123. Chris

    Reading a comment of yours helps me understand what was really happening in the Educo cult:

    “Well, the point of Vajrayana is to always keep the ‘tantrika’ in a state of fear, anxiety and panic. CTR used to say that a good tantrika was always in a state of panic. The teacher says X and then says Y when you get ‘comfortable’ and then says Z after that and on and on, all to ‘compassionately lead one to ‘groundlessness” the ‘breakthrough’ to “one taste”. .So the methodology of a ‘good vajrayana teacher’ it follows, is to always be pulling the rug out from under you, with ‘trickery’ never letting your have any ground, This led to abuses on the part of the teacher, and the state of constant anxiety within the group and teacher student situation. But you were told that was ‘good” and for your own good. Well it was good, and one could never ever question anything that the teacher was doing, Never period. And of course it was good for the teachers self-indulgences and justification for abuses, and exploitation”

    This is how the Educo cult leader Tony Quinn and his ‘top brass’ operate. ‘Pulling the rug out from under you’ is a phrase I heard many times during the years I attended for, so called, relaxation. They undermined anything and everything that did not have a purpose that would serve them; even dearly loved members of the family were included; emptying the mind of the importance that these relationships provided in keeping us connected to life and love; our ability to care and be cared for by others.

    Part of their cultic abusive methods is to keep a person in a state of fear, anxiety and panic. As for the tantrika, it was never mentioned to me, however, I have commented numerous times about the sexual partnering that went on and also the workers acting as pimps to lure females into the cult.

    Tony Quinn talked about coming out of ‘the comfort zone’ of who we are as individuals. The “groundlessness” state is what I came to understand as having no connection to anything or anyone, a disconnection from life itself that can totally destroy previous foundations of education, life lessons, moral and ethical standards and love for family; the ‘groundlessness’ state being the prerequisite to the final ‘guru’ indoctrination/spiritual, mental and physical focus on the ‘Mucky Messiah’ Quinn . This, I believe, is what he calls his ‘new’ breakthrough even though he has practiced this since he started his cult in the 1970’s. I don’t think anyone would be in any rush to see him, never mind go on a seminar, when they finally understand what he means.

    Many women were allegedly used sexually in his rituals. It should not surprise me that they do not speak about it as it is also the case that each and every one of them who worked for him would have promised to keep what he does a secret. They should know by now that writing about it will not harm them; it will help others to break away, if they have not already managed to do it, and finally sever the cord that binds them.

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  124. DI Moderation could you consider the appropriate thread before commenting. This has no connection with the current thread. We will leave it here for the moment but please locate the comment to threads that address this like the Lamaism discussion. We do not want to dilute this important post on cultism

    Auntie Khandro, see my discussion of Dakini Power and the enablers of sexual abuses on my links:

    http://www.extibetanbuddhist.com/2014/03/11/dakini-power-equals-dis-empowering-of-women/

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  125. DI Moderation could you consider the appropriate thread before commenting. This has no connection with the current thread. We will leave it here for the moment but please locate the comment to threads that address this like the Lamaism discussion. We do not want to dilute this important post on cultism

    Billionaire,

    certainly by now , he left Tibet with tons of gold that he deposited in swiss banks, being now a 501 c 3 Church, with no transparency , not even having to file with the I.R.S. no one knows how much these lamas have hoarded over the decades the Dalai lama alone has so many causes and foundations to funnel money …. He was on the payroll of the CIA and later the NED for decades as well.

    For a description of the the wealth of the Potala Palace and the massive wealth these Lamas always accumulate see “‘ ‘Behind the Mask, the Hidden Face of the Dalai Lama by Maxime Vivas for a great description of these brigands and hoarders that never use their own accumulated weath, but hoard and hoard and hoard, free labor, free money free sex from every group they steal from. .

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  126. DI Moderation could you consider the appropriate thread before commenting. This has no connection with the current thread. We will leave it here for the moment but please locate the comment to threads that address this like the Lamaism discussion. We do not want to dilute this important post on cultism

    a group that burns books they don’t like …”.

    http://augustafreepress.com/book-by-staunton-author-to-be-burned-in-india-protest/

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  127. DI Moderation could you consider the appropriate thread before commenting. This has no connection with the current thread. We will leave it here for the moment but please locate the comment to threads that address this like the Lamaism discussion. We do not want to dilute this important post on cultism

    Sweet. Was this question caused by me replying to the comments of Chris Chandler from April 3, 2014 at 9:02 am and 9:20 am? Happy Easter.

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  128. Again the connection to this thread is?

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  129. DI Moderation could you consider the appropriate thread before commenting. This has no connection with the current thread. We will leave it here for the moment but please locate the comment to threads that address this like the Lamaism discussion. We do not want to dilute this important post on cultism

    Chris, it is interesting. Our methods and conclusions are not identical, but we are “receiving” about the same topics.

    I did wonder about the popularity of transgenders and gays, too. Some musicians and actors show androgyny to some extent. But as a straight person to question the gender roles in a try to overcome the separation is very different from being transgender or gay, I think. Can you imagine a parade of straight people in regular clothes occupying the streets downtown? This is one of the reasons why I do not feel too much at home here anymore.

    For my handouts I would really appreciate, if you could point me to references for the following:
    – “… a group that burns books they don’t like …”.
    – “… the Dalai Lama , a billionaire himself …”
    – “… Auntie Kandro … a sexual object consort … when she was 15 … and he was 56 …”

    You know, the more references (preferably from public media) we can offer, the more clear it is that this is not made up.

    And yes, I am noticing with great concern the amount of buddhist references in all sorts of art in present and past times. Being very interested in music, I am also beginning to wonder about the plot of the Beatles coming from the red light district of Hamburg (red light districts are not really the home of all that is good in this world) becoming world famous, going to India and by that, willingly or unwillingly, being one of the biggest supporters of the eastern spirituality wave in the west. I am beginning to wonder how much of the youth revolts were abused for destabilizing and preparing our culture for some new world plans. You know, divide and rule. Destroy family cohesion and social cohesion and drive people into isolation (under the guise of individuality) if you want to take over a society.

    Combine that with the growing popularity of psychology, which can be abused to get behind people’s natural defense system and reprogram them. I wonder if that is why buddhism has developed an own psychology?

    I am not sure if it really were us, who allowed filthy rich people to influence all other realms. If I imagine the mindset of a filthy rich person, the driving forces would be greed and pride. From such a position everything else can be possible. It is not a secret that there are some people with some amount of criminal intent in the world of the big money. Who lusts for power needs control. But in the past, oppression of people very often did lead to either revolutions or wars. So the new way to go is to reprogram people so that they can not see oppression as what it is. That reprogramming would need to aim at any value system possibly in opposition to the controller. That of course includes any kind of religious or spiritual belief.

    But I want to close with a positive prospect. It seems somewhere deep down in the human nature there is a natural sense recognizing all forms of unjustness. Throughout the history of mankind, not a single “new world order” ever succeeded in a permanent way.

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  130. The Bleep people are the same ‘scientists’ and paradigm shifters that are part of the Dalai Lama’s Mind and Life Institute.

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  131. DI Moderation could you consider the appropriate thread before commenting. This has no connection with the current thread. We will leave it here for the moment but please locate the comment to threads that address this like the Lamaism discussion. We do not want to dilute this important post on cultism

    By the way, the George Soros, unimaginably rich plutocrat, who influences world policy now, supports the Huffington Post, and other inane puff piece material to ‘change the paradigm’ , one of the many propaganda outlets to influence the U.S. From 2000 on, there have been 14,000 articles positive about the Dalai Lama. That is 1000 articles a year, pro-Dalai Lama, so no wonder The Dalai Lama is Santa Claus. It is not much different in the NYTimes, Most of the scandals the sexual abuse the pedophilia in the monasteries, the murders and attempted murders and in fighting, so common in this medieval cult of Lamaism are buried. This would not have been true 20 years ago , before the filthy rich had such influence on our media and what is reported.

    , After the Sogyal scandals were publicized, Huffington Post let Sogyal write his own defense by writing two articles right after the scandals broke, one on meditation, another on his Auntie Kandro, whom the Lama cartel elevated to a ‘great living master’ from a sexual object consort , giving to a sick old dying Lama , without choice, when she was 15 (probably younger since Tibetans didn’t keep track of their ages and the ideal consort was 10 years old) and he was 56.

    In the last six months there have been 3 articles on Dakini Power, elevating the sexual exploitation of women in Tibetan Lamaism as a great blessing and these enablers of the sexual abuse as ‘women of wisdom’ this protected Rigpa Lerab Ling and Dzogchen Beara and the little toad predator Sogya and his sexual predatoriness of western women into a Great Blessing. These women writing these books are all shills for the Lamas and their misogynistic sexually abusive cult of Lamaism where everything is for the Lamas and their indulgences, pleasures and well being, the Lamas are seen as incarnate deities who are beyond the human realm , so codes of conduct don’t apply to them.

    The Lama cartel is worth billions, Birds of a feather, stick together, Lamaism, the new caste system master slave paradigm ‘religion’ brought to us by Hollywood, George Soros and Adrianna Huffington.

    When we allowed ourselves to believe that being filthy rich meant because you could play the markets, and were intelligent in that realm you should have ‘influence’ in all other realms, that’s when we got in this mess.

    Now that these billionaires made all there money in capitalism, they want to push ‘communitarianism’ on the rest of us.

    http://www.extibetanbuddhist.com

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  132. DI Moderation could you consider the appropriate thread before commenting. This has no connection with the current thread. We will leave it here for the moment but please locate the comment to threads that address this like the Lamaism discussion. We do not want to dilute this important post on cultism

    Yes, it is the same people in Bleep.

    Hollywood mainstream movies, have long been the propaganda arm of the state in the U.S. and of course Europe.

    When you start to notice how often Tibetan statues are in the stage sets of the movies, part of the decor of the homes of the characters, and then imagine if this were Christian crosses all over the stage sets, , it would be obvious that the west is being programmed to accept a ‘new spirituality’ with subtle cues, as the underpinnings of this new world being designed for us by the fillthy rich, , purposely with subtle subconscious programming, because we are being programmed to distance from traditional religion to embrace this Hindu Tantric that is called Tibetan ‘Buddhism’. People would notice the programming if it were all Christain crosses all over the set decor, and raise a hew and cry. Christians and Muslims are the new pariah ‘religions’ as we embrace caste system misogynistic priestly sexually abusing Lamaism in their place, a group that burns books they don’t like (2012) and have their devotees still burning themselves up over their God leader.

    George Soros, who supports the Dalai Lama and both are members of the Club of Budapest, a Club of Rome affiliate that are a group of wealthy billionaires terrified of overpopulation , so now we have a push where transgenders, and gays are the new hip thing to be, why? Even the Dalai Lama and the Pope are on board. Because it is being programmed to be not just acceptable but to be embraced because gays and transgenders have less children. Monogamy is being replaced because monogamy leads to bigger families, so now there is push to stay single and have many , multiple relationships. This is being labeled as “a free society’ but has actually created more chaos in society, and has destabilized it considerably.

    These are Malthusians , like Ted Turner who would like the world’s population to be down to 500,000. These are people that are so rich they are determining world policy now. The Dalai Lama , a billionaire himself is one of the’ gang’, now promoting ‘gay marriage’, (a new mask) a slave and serf holder less than 55 years ago. whereby Tibetan people had polygamous (for the rich) and polyandrous relations for the poor (95%) , i.e. one women married to many brothers and the dumbed down gender studies people, think that that was a form of ‘freedom ‘ for the women in a patriarchal caste system where it meant her life was 3 , 4 or 5 times more brutal. and women were not allowed into the monasteries, and prayed to be reborn a man.

    Yet a recent detective series had Gillian Anderson, the main character in her dialogue stating how ‘free Tibetan women were’ because there was polyandry in that society.

    This is how dumbed down and ignorant Hollywood is programming the U.S. and Europe. This detective series was an Irish program.

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  133. More on controlling by the mind (Pt. 2 Mystical Manipulation and/or Pt. 5 Sacred Science). Yesterday I watched the “what the bleep do we know?” movie again. At some point there is a statement saying up to 4.000 meditators in Washington D.C. did a long time meditation practice which was predicted to significantly reduce crime rate in the city. Reports in the internet state different results, but apparently there was some kind of influence.

    That is a good thing, right? Is it truely good when people just by the concentration in their mind influence the behaviour of other people? How could that be abused? What effect may the meditations and prayers in worldwide lamaist centers have? To not go off topic I should not elaborate on “explicit lyrics” and other aberrations in the media world, the effect of mostly problematic world news and so on.

    Also the pattern of the “bleep” movie is interesting, when seeing it as a possible example for Pt 6. Loading the Language:

    Start with an (in my opinion mostly wrong) reinterpretation of quantum physics, so most listeners without at least some knowledge about quantum physics need to open up and listen to these smart people knowing so much about something so mysterious and innovative (adressing the listeners curiosity). Then they reinterpret the understanding of god. Then they say you and me are the same (the conecpt of oneness) and each of us is god. Then they state our emotions are or at least have the potential to be an addiction. That is making the listener distrusting own personal experiences, motivations and values. At one point it is expressed, that love is an illusion.

    Now, more than 10 years later, that movie is an example for how to disassemble a persons self-image. I suspect that is done with the intention to re-arrange it. Have you heard a saying like “a cup that already is filled must be emptied before it can be filled with something else”? Are there parallels between the idea of oneness and the buddhist idea of dissolving into one single base-consciousness? Is there a parallel between the buddhist idea of letting go of affections and regarding our emotions as being an addiction? And so on.

    Did you know some of the speakers in the “bleep” movie are the same as are in the “DL renaissance” movie? When I saw the “bleep” movie the first time, I had no background knowledge to understand that there was a connection between the wanna be leading edge scientific viewpoint of “bleep” and buddhist viewpoints.

    How did I come to this bleep movie? At that time I wanted to understand something from a vacation on the Big Island of Hawaii. I was participating in a private discussion forum of a group learning about a hawaiian philosophy when one of the members recommended this “bleep” movie. In these times we can not be sure what is hiding behind a certain representation. Are we experiencing a “fishing for souls” on a global level? A “war” of beliefs? And if so, would we want to be a supporter for such a “war”?

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  134. I am sorry. I was not clear enough. This was meant to be real life everyday indications for Pt. 1 Milieu Control (“control of information and communication”), Pt. 3 Demand for Purity (“world is viewed as black and white … induction of guilt” and Pt. 5 Sacred Science (“ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute”).

    As a reply resulting from Angie’s comment from March 17 about “undue influence” and “warning about” that, it was not meant as a political statement. I just wanted to show how our own values are always influenced. How once we are sensitive to it we can see indications of mind control everywhere. It could as well have been examples from advertising, curricula etc.

    To me peace, freedom and love by themselves are very high values. Once I hoped a lot of people in religion or spirutality would have a similar motivating force. I wanted to show, that the separation resulting from closed value systems of groups or organizations and their striving for control (= mind control to more or less extent) can contradict these values.

    Lamaism is one example which shows signs of such striving for control. For me it can not be a path to achieve values like peace, freedom and love in life. I am very disappointed (to say it nicely) that these Lamas and their followers were not only not very clear about this, but instead were promoting themselves with such values while in reality, that’s my conclusion, they are mainly interested in gaining more wealth, more prominence and more power. Which is practically the exact opposite of the above values.

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  135. I would be grateful if you could not take us off topic with your political ramblings. Further material of this type will be moved.

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  136. Thank you for the answers.

    About Ukraine and Crimea: My understanding was, the people of the Crimea themselves did not want to be connected with the EU. I remember a news report stating that international election observers could not see manipulations in how that referendum was held. The west may not like it, but if it was a decision of the majority of the people, a democratic world should respect that. I remember other news having the US president stating that russia violated law of nations. What about PRISM? Or german politicians talking about a russian annexation while another news reported that in the past Israel had “conquered” the Golan Heights.

    I think as long as we think it is possible to choose one “right” side and the others are “wrong”, we deliver ourselves to the propaganda of the side we did choose. At this time whole of mankind has created a lot of contradictions. That’s why I think if we want to maintain peace and a free world, it is a possibility to accept the contradictions (not with an agenda to freeze one’s mind) and try to handle them with as much respect as possible. A truely free world must allow for diversity, so there can not be a single “right” unless everyone by free will agrees to that. Very unlikely to happen …

    About the crowds being beaten back: We had such pictures in the news for the last few weeks. Something similar happening in old Tibet is another example showing that the DL did not know the solution for our present problems. It was just a big bubble of nice words, my opinion.

    I had another thought about the connection of let’s say mind techniques and science. Our past has shown the connection between mere science and the abuse of scientific results in technology. If we assume that mind control is possible in contemplative traditions, then what may happen after the mind and life institute for example found a way to scientifically explain how that mind control is working? I doubt such knowledge would stay within these esoteric groups. What would be possible with technological devices able to control peoples minds? And what powerful people would want to use such technology for their advantage and for what purposes?

    Maybe that is their hidden agenda, so they think they need not care about that. But what if their arch enemy, the Islamists, would get access to such a technology and manipulate the minds of all Dharamsala inhabitants to become warriors for the Jihad?

    So, if ethical behaviour means we should consider the results of our actions in present and future, the same should be true for the ones promoting ethical behaviour. I want to close this with a quote from the DL:

    http://www.tagesspiegel.de/weltspiegel/gesundheit/ich-waere-ingenieur-geworden-der-dalai-lama-spricht-zu-14000-hirnforschern/659864.html (german site)

    Translation by Google: “… He had deep respect for the work of brain researcher, said the Dalai Lama. If a pill or electrodes would promote understanding and compassion in the brain, he would not mind. …”

    Peace.

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  137. Chris:

    Yes, very interesting that the clip contained the “old Tibet with the crowds being beaten back” and it is possible that the cutting editor included it to give a fuller picture of social differences in Tibet. It boggles the mind how people under their influence believe that some kind of utopia is possible when there is glaring evidence throughout history, that to create it for the self-proclaimed ‘elite’ leads to a need for a lower class, so to speak.

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  138. Back and Home:

    These are utopians that wish to ‘change the world. ‘ shift the world’ into some ‘new order’ but are still using the same authoriatarian , elitist answers to do it, the same paradigm that always causes all the problems in the world. ‘We know best for you” and you will do it our way, since we know best. They even call themselves ‘luminaries’ .These are colonialists in a neoliberal new age disguise. These are the same old 19th century Theosophists whose rascist theories were always a problem for them , but they can’t see it. . .

    Patronizing, hubris-filled and sanctimoniously. They make the British colonists look humble.

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  139. BackAtHome

    You say: “For example it is absolutely okay when these days Ukraine wants to be closer to the EU. But of course it is absolutely not okay when the Krim wants to be closer to Russia, even though almost the same is happening, just replace the names with each other.”

    You are correct in saying that choices have more to do with what part of the world you come from. It may be that Putin perceives the expansion of the EU as a future threat that will lead to a political power struggle with Russia. The Crimea could also be viewed as a buffer between present Russia and the Ukraine as a future member of the EU; he may even feel entitled to take his share and pushing out the boundary thus creating a no go area for future EU expansion.

    You say: “Maybe true mutual respect, for ourselves and for others and with no intention regarding supremacy, could be a good starting point.”

    I am of the same opinion. It would be a good starting point, however, I honestly cannot see this happening when differences are entrenched in the mind-set and to change the west, Lama Buddhism joining with others who accept the same methods of undue influence, is doing this by stealth. This type of influence is endemic in the Educo cult and is used by all cultic groups who seem hell bent on increasing their influence throughout the world. There is no respect shown whatsoever for personal choice to differ when the penny finally drops.

    As Chris points out, the control cults are experts at freezing “the mind to make it more receptive, you ‘embed’ a contradictory image or statement into the larger context and at a subliminal level it freezes the mind into some kind of shock, and resultant ‘openness’ thus making it more receptive to ‘thought control.”

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  140. Sorry , hard to actually track down this shrine, it could be anywhere, since these Lamas are building them bigger than the Potala Palace shrines all over the U.S. and Europe, now. It could be in Nepal, India or the U.S.

    It is hard to keep up with the massive, grotesque and thousands of shrines that these Lamas build with western millions in donations. , more like architecture one would associate with the the Incas, another group of slave owners and human sacrifiers, than anything that should be connected to Buddhism.

    I think you get the main point, this group is saying it is ‘not religious’ and really a ‘science’.

    I wonder what on earth could be going through these so-called western scientists minds, who are able to hold such contradictory thoughts and images in their minds at the same time.

    I really believe this is a power form of thought control.

    If you look at the Dalai Lama Renaissance Trailer #1 you will see embedded in it at about 1;44 through 1:47 , a film of old Tibet with the crowds being beaten back with sticks. It just flashes for a mere two seconds or so, and I wondered why that could possible be in there. Was the cutting editor trying to warn the west?

    Than I realized “no, this is what thought control cults do to freeze the mind to make it more receptive, you ’embed’ a contradictory image or statement into the larger context and at a subliminal level it freezes the mind into some kind of shock, and resultant ‘openness’ thus making it more receptive to ‘thought control .

    Watch trailer # 1 of the Renaissance trailer. it’s only 3 minutes and see if you notice this embedded old Tibet and its violence, which is quickly shown and then right back to the Utopian rhetoric:

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  141. They really don’t get it: the inherent problem is their ambitions because not everyone shares their ambitions. I mean, why does anyone have to tell that to people which consider themselves close to buddha’s teachings? Of course unless their main practice became fundraising … ;-)

    “… supplying the most profound insights of diverse contemplative traditions—along with the science that affirms them …” How is that going to work out for beliefs which are not mainly a contemplative tradition and have no science affirming them?

    “… ethics, education, and human development; craving, desire, and addiction; and mapping the mind …” Isn’t that like saying “we know what your problem is, no matter if for you it is a problem or not.”? Not too big a step away from totalitarianism. When will the purges begin?

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  142. Correction, this shrine, is not in Orissa, where the Sakyong’s father-in-law, is giving the ’empowerment’ and who now has many centers and travels all over the world, even though no one even heard of him outside of dirt poor Orissa before the Sakyong’s marriage to his daughter

    Much worse, it took place in California, the new India, U.S.A. where this grotesque shrine has been built, and the whole state of California is now a cult of New Age Spiritualism with the Dalai Lama presiding:

    .http://aribhod.org/events/ninth-annual-tagsham-yeshe-tsogyal-retreat-empowerment/

    This is what is happening as these Lamas have collected their billions, they are there ready to come fully on the world state, waiting to be World’s Theocracy next.

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  143. Sorry, we were writing and posting at the same time … My message was a reply to Angie’s last message.

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  144. This is a picture of the Shambhala group’s King and Holy of Holy’s the Sayong, H.S. drop-out from Boulder H.S. pretending to be a Lama and a Kind of an Imaginary Kingdom. But still Rahm Emanuel , mayor of Chicago invited him to speak like he is some wise avatar, when he couldn’t string a new speech together if his life depended on it, he gives the same cookie cutter sophomoric speech at every Shambhala event.

    This is the Goldman Sachs Lama’s father in law’s shrine in Orissa India. This is where most of the continuously bankrupted Shambhala’ groups money has all gone, as their main practice has become constant fundraising.

    This lama was an obscure nobody, but married into the Shambhala clan, and all that western money from the Shambhala devotees who wonder why their group is always on the verge of bankruptcy and fund-raising is their main practice now.

    I wanted to leave you with a picture which I think is worth a thousand words, and is what these other Buddhist groups ignore and what Tibetan ‘Buddhist’ Lamaists just don’t seem to notice; talk about an ‘elephant in the room’. Only cult members could persist in the delusion that Tibetan ‘Buddhism’ is not ‘really a religion’ and is about ‘science’ and ‘science of the mind’.

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  145. In a way your message said it all. What is due and what is undue? It depends on what we believe. Seen another way, whatever we believe can be misused to control us, to send us to sleep so we can no longer see what is outside of that belief. We always warn about what is different from what we believe, that’s easy to see everywhere. For example it is absolutely okay when these days Ukraine wants to be closer to the EU. But of course it is absolutely not okay when the Krim wants to be closer to Russia, even though almost the same is happening, just replace the names with each other.

    One believe does have no education which informs us of thought patterns or mind controlling techniques of other beliefs (or our own belief). Not talking only about religious or spiritual beliefs here, but about all the clashes between different beliefs in this forcibly globalized world. We are not stupid or naive, we are just completely unprepared. I can not see how true peace can be achieved as long as each belief is separated from each other. But that is how it is in fact, and there is no realistic way to change this within a few years. Paroles like “same same but different” or “all is one” come from a certain set of beliefs and do not respect the existing diversity. Such paroles are just misleading. Even the same words have different meaning, feel different in different cultures.

    Global agitators should take that into consideration when claiming to bring freedom, peace or wealth. And yes, for the ones believing in god one way or another, I think there we may get help and some rest in these difficult times. While in my opinion the last decades if not centuries have shown, real life persons or organizations tend to create the duality between followers and non-followers, which often resulted in conflicts.

    Maybe true mutual respect, for ourselves and for others and with no intention regarding supremacy, could be a good starting point. But well, respect is a boring word. You won’t make it into the news with that message. People will not give you their money for that.

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  146. Yes, Back at Home, the arrogance and sanctimoniousness and hubris of this Spiritual Alliance of New Age Cults and the Dalai Lama is really disturbing.

    As is the doublespeak and as you have deconstructed the ‘language and rhetoric’ it becomes clear who they think are the ‘weak’ , which they will be sure to keep in that position, or as Barbara Marx Hubbard says (or more accurately her ‘Christ’ says that channels through her) , the weak will be ‘eliminated’ no fault of the Utopians for the ‘higher more evolved race’ them.

    Now the Mind and Life Institute is going Global, and there ambitions: in there own words:

    Over the next several years, the Institute will undertake its most ambitious phase yet: three global initiatives in the areas of ethics, education, and human development; craving, desire, and addiction; and mapping the mind. “Attempting to cultivate universal, human values rooted in the most rigorous science means thinking globally and multiculturally,” says President Arthur Zajonc. “It also means creating a coalition of institutional partners around the world in order to discover from each just how expansive and inclusive those human values are—and how they can be fostered appropriately in, by, and for those cultures.”

    Toward this end, Mind and Life has established Mind and Life Europe (now operating in Switzerland), and is planning an expansion in Asia and beyond. “Mind and Life has always been a place where people come together,” says Zajonc. “This is not about multinationalism in the way one normally might think about it. It’s about supplying the most profound insights of diverse contemplative traditions—along with the science that affirms them—to as many as we can. It’s about creating an inexhaustible well of service.”

    We invite you to explore this website to learn about Mind and Life’s future at its most pivotal point—and how you can share in its next evolution.”

    http://www.mindandlife.org/about/mission/

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  147. I have elaborated on these topics at my site:

    http://www.extibetanbuddhist.com

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  148. I must admit, I think they look and sound like a pack of idiots when adult western people on this video repeat the slogans of the Dalai Lama. It does not surprise me that a straight forward journey is planned in such a way that it all becomes confusing; isn’t that that biggest mind controlling tool and westerners need to learn to see it for what it is, pay it no heed and talk amongst themselves as they naturally would. It does not do to allow this to disturb them emotionally. It would seem they have no education that informs them of eastern patterns of thought or mind controlling techniques. Surely it is time to WAKE UP to the undue influence? I know this is obvious to readers of Dialogue, however, it needs to be repeated that when the Dalai Lama or a guru is talking about ‘waking up’ they mean GO TO SLEEP and take in eastern conditioning religious beliefs thus leaving themselves open to energy manipulation. When I say WAKE UP it is to warn people about the above. They need to WAKE UP and take back control of their thinking minds and get out of situations that control them, period. God help us in this time of crisis!

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  149. If you begin to think about it … at 1:25 after arriving at the DL’s place the “world’s most innovative thinkers” have been degraded to “thin-shelled eggs”. The DL proposes a collective effort. So who will be the leader of such a collective? Or can anyone imagine the DL being just one member of such a collective, not sitting in his high chair, not giving audience, not having adult western people bow before him and not having any more rights than any other member of that collective?

    The movie is not called “synthesis group” or “the collective of many thinkers and one DL”. It is simply called “Dalai Lama Renaissance” and the website is “www.dalailamafilm.com”. Will then the collective be recognized as being a collective or will it all seemingly be coming from the DL? As it was before, many people spending work, time and money all for the glory of the one leader. I can not see a lot of innovation in such a constellation. What may be the reason why previously “innovative thinkers” give themselves away for that?

    There’s some early indications to Pt. 6 “Loading the Language” (thought-terminating clichés, conform to the group’s way of thinking), Pt. 7 “Doctrine over person” (personal experiences are subordinated to the … group / what may have been the reason for one of the members saying at 1:35 “I do not like to be represented by somebody else”?) and maybe there is a first warning sign regarding Pt. 5 “Sacred Science” (… ultimate Truth …) when they think in categories like a “prevailing consciousness step”.

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  150. Just one more: Let’s have a look at the first 20 seconds(!) of the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXpHBkCyVYE:

    “… the world’s most innovative thinkers … doing wonderful work … emergence of a prevailing consciousness step …” – take down resistance by using keywords

    “… protect the weak while honouring the strong …” – hidden message: accept a world with weak and strong people in which the strong people have to be honoured

    Later, at 2:15 we have the usual: “.. been given a blessing … gift you have been given … opportunity to transform the heart within you. Take this opportunity to open your heart.”- this is an imperative disguised by more keywords

    Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

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  151. Chris, thank you for the amount of work you have done here and for your blog. Thank you also for pointing to the similarities with hinduism. Just a few days ago I had a conversation with a person from the healer, yoga, meditation, wellness market. It was a real conversation as much as that is possible with a person with a “snapped” mind. So that was good. What I found disturbing was the quality of the energy this confirmed hinduistic person was radiating and some of his words. For example while I was very clear about coming from a christian background he kept saying I hadn’t found my master yet. Finall he kept repeating that it is all about controlling the mind. It was not clear, but I understood he was talking about controlling one’s own mind to be save that it was not controlled by let’s say the outside world, including other persons of course. I recognized very strong parallels to what I would expect coming from a certain western lama. What a poor, restricted life perspective that is. As if the only purpose of our life was to protect us against the evil outside world and mind-controlling persons and thus learn to control our own mind. So what, they think they “heal” people by forcing them to live a life following such a life-denying concept? That speaks volumes about what kind of new world order we would have to expect if these dogmas are accepted in the western world on a grand scale.

    It’s bad that people like us had to go through this to be able to report about it from the inside. I hope in the end it will not have been in vain.

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  152. Dear Chris, do you have any information about a second multi-million lawsuit that you could share? Alice

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  153. http://www.extibetanbuddhist.com

    I have updated this post on my own blog concerning the Eight Criteria of Cult Control regarding Tibetan ‘Buddhism’ a.k.a. Lamaism, and much more.

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  154. Anyone noticed the latest posts of buddhist Anonymous, or ex-buddhist in spe, started December, 23rd, and ended January, 2nd? Just wondering if that was pure coincidence …

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  155. There is one thing we do know about cult leaders; they always manage to come up with excuses/religious beliefs for sexual deviancy and, unfortunately, followers are so under influence they accept it. The sad part about it is abuse tends to be kept hidden from going outside the ‘secret’ sect/cult/religion and only exposed when someone speaks openly about it. If you have done your research you will know that such behaviour is condoned by Tibetan Lamaism. I believe that the Dalai Lama spoke out about it because he was cornered by western disgust. You will also know, having done research, that the Dalai Lama could not understand why western women called Sogyal’s behaviour ‘sexual abuse’. The DL’s reaction was to blame the women, that they “spoiled him”. Why does he, supposedly enlightened, not recognise a sexual predator who uses ‘freedom of religion’ to access as many women as possible to ‘practice’ on and, let’s face it, this is condoned by the DL.

    How is it that supposedly ‘compassionate’ people condone this behaviour? The purpose of tantric practices, I am led to understand, is to ‘create’/change a man from being ordinary into some kind of superman/enlightened. I would ask, what exactly does being enlightened mean? How does it manifest itself? Does it excuse use of occultism practices/sorcery? Is the end result to be an adept sorcerer? For what purpose does the DL consult an oracle; a human who is emptied out, being displaced to allow a spirit to enter his/her body? Is it to satisfy his curiosity for future events?

    It is crystal clear that no real good comes from it accept they grow richer and have deluded people bow down to them. I can only think it is due to sorcery; manipulation of energy and mind. If anything, as Chris has pointed out, Tibetan Buddhism breeds poverty, superstition, psychopathic self-interested guruism/Lamaism who are brought up to believe they are entitled to everything including the minds of their followers; the result it would seem are generations of mind-controlled people who rely on, hope for ‘compassion’ where none exists.

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  156. It’s true that I don’t know much about tantra, but there is a lot of information out there, even though it is supposed to be a big secret. From what I do know about tantra, (which I admit is limited), it was originally supposed to be something quite different from the corruption of today. But perhaps it was never what it was supposed to be.

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  157. “I said that genuine tantric practice, when done by adults who WISH to engage in it PRIVATELY with each other, (for spiritual reasons), is not a problem for me personally, (not that I have engaged in it).”

    How can you support it when you rely on hypnotic suggestive ‘truths’ of what it is about? How can you support something that you have not engaged in, in fact, know nothing about as it is kept secret?

    It certainly is at total odds with “Go forth and multiply”.

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  158. This is the link to the new thread, for anyone who is interested in continuing this discussion about Tibetan Buddhism (Lamaism).

    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2014/01/01/chris-chandler-further-defines-lamaism/

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  159. Also, just a brief notation…..I mentioned women who were QUALIFIED to do tantra, which is a different thing from women who are picked out of a crowd to be used for sexual rituals. If the lamas really do the latter, then it’s disgusting and I don’t support that.

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  160. Angie, this discussion was moved to a new thread. If you wish to continue, see the link posted above for the new thread.

    Let me just BRIEFLY say that I did NOT say I supported lamas using women for sexual rituals in the manner that you described. I said that genuine tantric practice, when done by adults who WISH to engage in it PRIVATELY with each other, (for spiritual reasons), is not a problem for me personally, (not that I have engaged in it). When I made a distinction between what I called “mundane” and what I called “tantric” I meant that when tantra is used for ones personal, selfish pleasure and lust, it is no longer even tantra, it becomes mundane and not spiritual. it is just using tantra in a twisted way, which is not what it was supposed to be originally. The way some lamas have perverted it is NOT tantra, even if they may call it that. If that is not clear, then I don’t wish to re-explain it further. I am done trying to explain and I hope it is more clear to people who may have misunderstood what I said.

    If you want to move to the new thread to discuss this, then fine.

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  161. Read the following. It is an honest description of what goes on in abusive cults.

    Excerpt: “these are usually young women that they have picked out of the crowd, while they are teaching to the crowd, (the pimps in these groups, older students who know the ‘game’ then go and tell the female, the lama ‘has a special connection with her” lure a young female is escorted into the ‘chambers of the lamas and then they are ‘initiated’ by the Lama ‘directly, because it is all about indulging his sexual promiscuity”

    According to the belief system of Lamaism we are to believe that having sex with a woman/multiple partners is not to be enjoyed, merely to grant ‘enlightenment’ and he is a disgrace if he does otherwise. I won’t retype what he has to do to redeem himself (isn’t it so convenient he has a way out of letting the side down). The woman is not considered a person in her own right but considered a ‘vessel’ to be emptied:

    “In the light of the entire procedure we have described, it seems sensible to remind ourselves of the thesis posed above, that the “production” of the deity and the “destruction” of the person stand in an originally causal relation to one another, or — to put it even more clearly — that the gods and the guru who manipulates them feed themselves upon the life energies of the pupil.”

    Anonymous comments: “I have had (what I considered) good experiences within TB and good memories of empowerments, the way it felt, the way I felt afterward, etc. and I am not ready to just throw all of that away. I feel that these practices do work to reduce anger and negative emotions, etc.”

    First of all, I would ask you why you were feeling anger. Why emotionally distressed? What was going on at the time? I noticed this was something that happened a number of day before Quinn the sorcerer would seduce his group into adoring him. When energy is taken from a person it can cause depression; the will to be ‘positive’ is reduced.

    Not knowing what it was about that caused me to feel ‘in awe’ I was curiously interested in how the ‘energy’ affected me and would occasionally mention something that happened. I was met with silence. Having been around much longer than I had and since I was not in the core group they kept the ‘secrets’. This caused me to deliberately restrain from discussing all of it. I instinctively knew there could be repercussions although it never occurred to me that I would be drawn into ‘bringing about results’ for the ‘mucky’ Quinn. It was done in such a subtle manner; his ‘foolies’ knew when to approach me and did so on his behalf. Meanwhile Quinn could pretend he did not know this and have no reason to pay personal attention. Anonymous, the process of initiation into service for the cult is so subtle few notice it at the time. Another point I will make is when they ignore you, giving the impression you are not good enough to participate it is part of the process of deliberate mind controlling with changes they want to instigate. In fact, I would say they are at their most dangerous at this time and anyone who thinks, at this point, that nothing is happening to influence him/her does not yet fully understand the process of emotional control they are being subjected to.

    Anonymous, I ask you, what is it that causes you to have the capacity to favour the ‘good’ experiences you have had which have proved strong enough to block your mind from accepting the abusive nature of Lamaism? This alone should alert you to how intrusive the cult beliefs are. We are talking about subtle indoctrination that ‘bypasses your conscious mind’. The hypnotic effect/trance will eventually wear off, however, the indoctrinated beliefs, over a period of time, become embedded and change behaviour and personality of the recipients who are ignorant of the consequences. Why make an issue of how you are disgusted with Lamas who indulge in MUNDANE sexual pleasure when their religion encourages rituals of sexual abusive practices?

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  162. Excerpt from “The self-sacrifice of the pupil”

    “The spiritual hierarchy draws its natural and spiritual resources from it, both material goods and religious devotion and loving energy.”

    Very clear isn’t it? Those resources spoken about are taken from the devotees for the lama’s use; available to them as if they had a natural right to them. Note they also include energy. Take, take, and take. I noticed on Tony Quinn seminars that he took from the people attending particularly their energy. They were so ignorant of what was going on; walking around in a trance and, at times, not seeing or hearing what was going on around them. Everyone gathered on the Friday evening to start the week seminar and come Wednesday he had done what was needed to have them in awe of what he said (mostly plargarised and mostly boring; (it works better when we stop taking notice of what is being said, not thinking about it; the same repeated at every seminar and the energy giving them a high which they presumed all came from him. He had used the energy of people present to do this. Lured into a supposedly ‘positive thinking’ cult where the truth of what took place was hidden.

    Anonymous commented: “I am disgusted by the way lamas have used and abused tantric sex just for selfish, mundane pleasure. I still find it hard to believe that ALL lamas misuse it.”

    The above comment leads me to understand that Anonymous does not see anything wrong with using women for sexual rituals, however, the thought of lamas ‘abusing’ tantric sex for ‘selfish, MUNDANE pleasure’ is disgusting. It would seem she makes a distinction and FAVOURS, sees nothing wrong with the sexual rituals of abuse that is the sole purpose of lama religious belief systems.

    She says: “The question is whether it is true or not. Also, if it is true, then how MUCH is it true. Do all lamas abuse these practices, or is it just some of them, who give the rest a bad name?”

    Anonymous seems concerned about lamas “who give the rest a bad name?”

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  163. Thanks for the link.

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  164. I guess so, unless someone wants to add something. Where is the new post on your site?

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  165. Anonymous this final statement on this issue by Chris on this thread is being made into a new post as mentioned above. So unless you need assistance with thought reform we conclude that this is your final statement on our Christmas/ New Year discussion?

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  166. Chris, I do see where you are coming from and your motivation. I understand that you see this as a threat to Western civilization and this is why you are such an activist about it. I don’t blame you (looking from you point of view) and if I saw it the same way, I would be in total agreement. I don’t want to see Western culture turn into a Tibetan theocracy and sometimes it feels like everyone is converting to Tibetan Buddhism (or Lamaism) and blindly following these lamas without question. Sometimes that seems quite scary to me, even as a follower of TB. But because of my own loyalties to the tradition and because I have not completely broken from it at this point, I also feel defensive when I see such criticism against it, (whether justified or not). At this point I am still trying to figure out whether the criticism, (not just yours, but all the people who criticize), is justified or not. I have had (what I considered) good experiences within TB and good memories of empowerments, the way it felt, the way I felt afterward, etc. and I am not ready to just throw all of that away. I feel that these practices do work to reduce anger and negative emotions, etc. I also realize that I have been going around in a kind of trance and that part bothers me. I am starting to question the whole thing. I don’t appreciate being called a spy because I am not. I am just a questioner who is not sure what to think or who to believe at this point, (on either side). In fact, I don’t even have any interest in converting anyone to Buddhism in any form, Tibetan or otherwise. I am even questioning whether ANY form of Buddhism is the right fit for me. I am very confused. No hard feelings though. I get what you’re trying to do.

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  167. I would like to also address something you said about ‘tearing it down’ on the one side, Anonymous.

    …………….

    This comment is to be edited and made into a post. So we are taking it down from here. Anonymous we have reached an impasse here and it is clear that you have not brought any new material to undermine the case made by the Trimondes. So it looks like your next comment tells us you are going to persist in TB=Lamaism. so be it, but do not please come on and act as if you have demonstrated anything in terms of our classification of this phenomenon which undermines it. In fact I would say you have understood Chris’s mission, respect it but will stay in for the moment.

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  168. It is appalling that the lamas aren’t doing more to clean it up and I’m not making excuses for that

    Prostitution is appalling but why are the pimps not cleaning it up? Guess why?

    But I find it hard to believe in things which are totally illogical which don’t make any sense, such as the idea that the Dalai lama conduct orgies with multiple women at secret rituals, which take place now.

    Again you repeat this point which has been explained to you at least three times and yet you persist with this line of argument. Normally one defends one’s views with a further step of logic. You just repeat yourself and ask what can be done.
    What can be done is that you break with the TB and seek out a thought reform consultant who you ask to assist you in coming out of the world you are in!

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  169. Anonymous

    Btw, you have to scroll way down on the page to get to he part about what is supposed to happen during the higher initiations. It is a very LONG chapter, which is the reason I can’t quote it here. It is very, very lengthy and detailed

    .

    When Chris answers you you persist with the Trimondes stuff. You acknowledge her point and then continue on your merry way. Suggestion for you, stop using generalisations and when making a particular argument please quote the relevant section. You are quoting a long article, but when challenged you say it is too long to quote. Sorry that does not wash.
    Make your point then, then quote the relevant section and let Chris answer the specifics.

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  170. This is a common practice as we showed with Tony Quinn, and Angie can give more detail about him.
    Then these show this not only a Lamaist thing.
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/category/christian/unification-church/
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2013/12/10/the-sex-lives-of-godmen-of-spiritual-healers-hypnosis-artists-and-sexual-exploiters-by-mihir-srivastava/

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  171. Okay, maybe I’m hypnotized. Let’s just say so for the sake of argument. So now, tell me what does one do to free oneself from such hypnotism? is there any way to break free from it, or is it all hopeless?

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  172. YOu may be just one of the mass ‘hypnotised’ ones, by taking this Kalachakra and you don’t even know it. .

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  173. Even if you are not a designated ‘troll’ officially , you are a thought controlled Dalai Lamaist now, you took his Kalachakra and you reveal in your loops of thought and always ‘defense’ of Lamaism, that THAT is the ‘seed’ he planted in those of you on the fringe, a thought control ‘meme’ to always defend the Lamas, you don’t even know you have revealed the most dangerous thing about them, what they are doing to masses of people by their deceptions. That is what the “fringe” robots of the Lamas are doing now, masses of them.

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  174. I am not a Dalai Lama troll. I don’t have any inside contact with anyone within TB (Lamaism). I have friends who practice TB, but I don’t belong to any inner core group and I am not trolling or spying for any such group.

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  175. I agree that TB (or Lamaism) is corrupt to the core ans something needs to be done. It is appalling that the lamas aren’t doing more to clean it up and I’m not making excuses for that. On that we can certainly agree. But I find it hard to believe in things which are totally illogical which don’t make any sense, such as the idea that the Dalai lama conduct orgies with multiple women at secret rituals, which take place now. A public figure like him would not be able to keep that up without it being discovered eventually. People would talk. He might have a secret consort or two, but multiple women? How could a celebrity like him get away with that and not be found out by the media, etc.?

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  176. I suspect you are a Dalai Lama troll, and that you are using the same tactics as “Tenpel” , a Gelugpa monk does on his website, i.e. pretend to be engaging in open discussion at ‘first’ about the Lama abuses, but really be using it to take some part of the criticisms against lamaism and the Dalai Lama and derail it. Like you are doing with the Trimondis. The thing is about you Gelugpas, you all really “suck at real debate” because there can be no debate when the goal is a predetermined outcome of Lama Doctrine, and thought control. You see Lamaists, have arrested cognitive development, and eventually reveal how limited they are in critical thinking skills , because they are thought controlled , and their minds go into loops, the same loops into Lama excuses , they can’t see that they are obvious after a while, , but it becomes patently obvious to anyone that lets them keep talking. Disgusting what you areall engaged in. You are all so desparate now. Five years, I give it five years before the world will see who you are.

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  177. Just because I don’t jump on the anti-bandwagon and agree with everything right away, that doesn’t mean I am enabling anything. What is it you want me to do? Do you expect me to agree with everything people say on here without questioning any of it? I know about tantric sex and that sex is used in the practices. That part doesn’t really bother me so much. What I am more concerned about is the WAY it is used and how MUCH it is used and whether it is used properly, or used as an excuse to indulge in ordinary sex. Keep in mind that a lot of the ‘tantric’ sexual stuff that goes on in TB is not really even tantra at all. it is just people having sex who are only USING tantra as an excuse to have ordinary sex and abuse the system. In fact, they are actually breaking their tantric vows by doing so in this way. So what they are doing is NOT tantra. The question is, how many lamas are abusing tantra and how many are doing tantra the way it is supposed to be done?

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  178. I am tired of talking to you, it is the same loop all the trolls of Lamaism try and corner us into on this site. You will be one of the ones, that will continue to obfuscate, and confuse masses of people then about this being a sexually abusive cult, and there are thousands of you now , out there, keeping this going, That will be your legacy in this lifetime, Part of the ‘enabling’ of abusing others in the name of the Buddha’s teachings. If you are comfortable with that as a ‘buddhist’ then so be it. I wouldn’t want it to be my legacy in the world.

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  179. Well, no matter what anyone says to you , right now, you will not believe that the apex of Vajrayana tantric rituals, are about couple sex, and that the Lamas are exhorted to engage in it, by the teachings, in order to be giving these initiations. You cannot give an ‘initiation’ in Tantric vajrayana, unless you have experience and ‘realization’ in the practices. That doesn’t mean they are all engaging in sex with multiple partners, it does mean that most of them are, and those that aren’t are fooling masses of people into believing that this is NOT what it is about, including you. That goes with the territory. Keeping it ‘secret’ it is a ‘secret’ like all cults have their secrets. So I can see that nothing will convince you.

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  180. I don’t really have a problem with couples who chose to do tantric sex as part of their spiritual path. If both partners are equal and they really want to do it, then fine. If it is used by those in power to abuse and exploit women then I think that is wrong. I also don’t believe in using magic to influence people into doing tantric sex. So if it is true that it is used in an abusive way, then I would certainly agree that it is disgusting and wrong. The question is whether it is true or not. Also, if it is true, then how MUCH is it true. Do all lamas abuse these practices, or is it just some of them, who give the rest a bad name? These are things I am not clear on yet.

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  181. And yes, I know the lamas have had consorts. I am disgusted by the way lamas have used and abused tantric sex just for selfish, mundane pleasure. I still find it hard to believe that ALL lamas misuse it.

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  182. I don’t want to be in a sexually abusive cult, as you say, but I am pointing out some glaring untruths in the Trimodis book. Since these glaring inaccuracies indicate that what they say cannot be trusted, I wonder how much of this book was written just to discredit Tibetan Buddhism (or Lamaism) or to defame the Dalai Lama, which a lot of people try to do for various reasons. If I felt their book was truthful I would stay far away from TB and the lamas. But I suspect that they are people who researched TB from the outside, without actually being part of the inner circle, nor did they attend a full Kalachakra initiation. I feel they are just making a lot of assumptions about tantric practice in general without knowing any inside info.

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  183. That is what is so very brave and feisty of the few women who come on here and other places, who have been ‘sexually abused’ and still can ‘blow the whistle’ on these Lamas, and for anyone to derail the healing process for them, is as low as a worm, in my book. No different than the Godgang of the FLDS, or the Fundamental Muslims who keep their women enslaved. Same energy operating. And that there are ‘sisters’ out there keeping this misogynistic cult going, for their own depraved and narcissistic reasons, or that they are so mind controlled themselves, is beyond sad, it makes me sick.

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  184. And yes, there are “initiations” where there are orgies with Sadhakas who are let into the inner circle with the Lamas. the Lama presiding over the whole thing. You are confusing public and private, and the Kalachakra ‘initiations’ all the way through would not be engaging in the real meaning or the practices, they would only be ‘preparing’ and ‘initating’ for the future use of these practices. The ‘initiations’ with the Lamas themselves, whether they be by . sexual couple practices, or ‘orgie practices’ those would be for the really ‘initiated’ who had deeply sold their ‘souls’ by these meaning promising to never reveal the secret meanings of the Tantras, and to obey their Lamas, with no way out. The Lamas would have profoundly thought controlled this inner group, so there is no way the Dalai Lama would ever let that secret out or be performing this type of ‘initiation’ in public, He is known to have ‘private intiations’ such as with Shoko Asahara who wished to usher in “Shambhala” with his Sarin Gas attacks.

    All the Dalai Lamas went to their ‘summer palace’ by waterways from the Potala Palace, where the Vajrayana Tantric practices could take place. Only the very few would know about what the Dalai Lamas did, except for one of the Dalais, who was very openly promiscuous, and was probably assassinated, more than likely , because of this. The Gelugpas , i.e. the Dalai Lama sect is the most secretive and deceptive about what the Varjayana is really about.

    So you are focusing, because you want to make an argument based on ‘sematics’ and whether we are talking about ‘public’ or ‘private’ “initiations” the Lamas chosing to bypass the protocol for their own indulgences and to have an inner circle bound to them, there is nothing more thought controlling in a cult , than to use sex. Similar to how the FLDS, of the Mormons make slaves of their women.

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  185. You are focusing on ‘sematics’ what the Trimondis are referring to are ‘initiations’ with the Lamas, it would have been clearer to say ‘practices ‘ with the Lamas, since that is what is really happening, the Lamas are ‘initaating’ the subjects, bypassing the usual form, of ‘initiation’ or permission to do the practices in the future, by giving first empowerments, and what is happening in these large crowds, and rushing the process through for their own benefit., and that is what they mean by ‘behind closed doors”, these are usually young women that they have picked out of the crowd, while they are teaching to the crowd, (the pimps in these groups , older students who know the ‘game’ then go and tell the female, the lama ‘has a special connection with her” lure a young female is escorted into the ‘chambers of the lamas and then they are ‘initiated’ by the Lama ‘directly, because it is all about indulging his sexual promiscuity and so it bypasses the usual form which is stated that even the lamas have to prepare for many years to engage in these” practices”. Of course that is not occurring, if it ever occurred , but I suspect it was more controlled in the Lamasteries in Tibet. Since most of the monks were engaging in ‘thigh sex’ or more with the young boys. You would have to have been a very high lama to have access to a nubile 11 year old girl, since women weren’t allowed to set foot in the monasteries, THAT is the real real status in Tibetan Lamaism for females. So you are quibbling about ‘semantics’ and are ignoring what is most important , i.e. that these Lamas are using females for their own sexuality, That is the whole import of the Trimondis research, and the Lamas do say, when it is in the special chambers of their sexual indulgences, that it is an ‘initiation’ yes, an initiation into shock and sexual abuse for the females that come on here and have tried to reveal it, despite the years of terrible fear and being told they will turn to dust.

    You sound like you want to be in this sexually abusive cult. After all, when men , who are secret male chauvinists, and misogynistic themselves, get involved, THEY have no problem with the sexual abuse occurring, they hope to get the ‘throw aways’ and participate themselves in the higher ‘practices.” There are many ‘enablers’ in a sexually abusive system..

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  186. Btw, you have to scroll way down on the page to get to he part about what is supposed to happen during the higher initiations. It is a very LONG chapter, which is the reason I can’t quote it here. It is very, very lengthy and detailed.

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  187. I sent the link, see above. Can’t you see it there? It is there, TWICE. Just look.

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  188. I took many ‘initiations into vajrayana practices for decades, and still didn’t know that this was to prepare you for these ‘sexual practices’ as the highest form of ‘practice’ in Tibetanl Lamaism, whereby the mahayoga tantra was all about sexual bliss couple practice, it is a highly guarded secret among the closer in ‘initatiatives’ who are having sex with the lamas, or the relatives, including the mothers, who know their daughers , whom they have ‘offered up to the Lamas” as a ‘dana’ so they can be in the ‘inner circle of secrets’ and whose wives and girlfriends and daughters and sisters are being sexually used by the lamas, and upon pain of death and terrible hell realms told NOT to reveal it so it is never even ‘mentioned’. The Trimondis whole research is to reveal what is really behind these ‘initiations” and that it is all about using sexual female energy for the Lamas benefit, so where did they say that sexual practices were occurring in these Kalachakra ‘initiations’ or ’empowerments?” We are waiting…..

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  189. My point is that the above information is incorrect, at least as it relates to the Dalai Lama, because he has given the higher initiations in public and there were no young girls participating in orgies.

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  190. Read the link and what they say about the seven lower initiations for the public and the higher initiations with orgies.

    http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-1-06.htm

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  191. O.K. so again you ignore the vital difference that I have pointed out between ‘initiations’ a.k.a. ’empowerments’ and the ‘practices themselves. The Trimondis have not said the “practices” of couple sex bliss’ tantra to steal the energy from females, occur in ANY vajrayana empowerment, and , in fact, NO ‘sexual practices’ go on in any of these ‘initiations’. I can attest to that . So People don’t know, even when they have been following these lamas for a decade,or more, , what really goes on with the ‘higher practices’ although they certainly start suspecting there is promisculous sexual activity within these sanghas, and particularly with the Lamas, but just don’t want to believe it about the Lamas or that this is , in fact , a misogynistic sexually abusive cult for the Lamas benefit that they have been sucked into. . They are too far in to accept that, given too much money and labor and time, i.e. they are already ‘invested’ and that is the point, to lure you in with the peace bombing, and then you are ‘in’ and being thought controlled massively to see these lamas as ‘perfect’ no matter what they do, no matter what egregious behavior they engage in , even before your eyes, that have been dimmed from the endless thought control they wash over you. Even in the first inititations, thousands of newbies are told to see the Lama as devine and enlightened and to ‘let go’ of their egos and let these empowerments ‘wash over them” i.e. implant a ‘meme’ by the Lamas. This is ‘thought control ‘ being exerted on thousands of people at a time, without a clue that it has happened.

    So tell me again, and none of this ‘I can’t find it” because you have come on here making this your main issue, ‘where do the Trimondis say that sexual ‘practices’ are occurring during these ‘initiations?”

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  192. Anonymous:
    When you are making such a strong claim you must be able to substantiate it, a vague comment like, “I can’t quote the Trimondis exactly,”, is a bit weak is it not?
    Please give us the reference and the article and we will publish it here in full so everyone can read it?
    “But if you read what they say, they talk about how the Dalai Lama gives the first seven levels of Kalachakra in public. Then they go to say that he never gives the higher levels of initiation, except in secret. Then they describe (in great detail) the sexual rituals which are supposed to take place during the higher initiations. If you read the text online,”
    We would love to read it directly, and all that stuff about orgies is pure titillation and diversion.

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  193. I can’t quote the Trimondis exactly, but if you read what they say, they talk about how the Dalai Lama gives the first seven levels of Kalachakra in public. Then they go to say that he never gives the higher levels of initiation, except in secret. Then they describe (in great detail) the sexual rituals which are supposed to take place during the higher initiations. If you read the text online, you will see for yourself what they describe. All I can say is that when he goes up higher in public, during the initiations, there are no sex rites going on as the Trimondis claim. It is no different than when he is giving the lower levels. Now, having said that, I am not saying there aren’t orgies going on in private, but it would seem to me that if there were activities like that, people would talk and gossip. There are too many spies around who are only too willing to report what they see. Since orgies involve a lot of people, it just doesn’t seem possible that the Dalai lama could be conducting secret orgies without someone reporting on what they witness. I do think it’s possible he could have a consort, but it would be only one and she would be a qualified practitioner. It would be possible to keep one or two of them secret, but it wouldn’t be possible to keep orgies (with nine or ten women) a secret. There are simply too many people involved and they could not get away with it. Or so it would seem.

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  194. Anonymous, you seem to be confusing ’empowerment’ with the “practices”. Empowerments give you ‘permission’ to do the practices, if not in this life, according to the ‘protocol’ then in your next life. Initiations are basically ’empowerments’. These are Kalachakra ’empowerments” not a group ‘practice’ with thousands of people. But thousands of people, I can assure everyone, they have no idea what they are being led into by the deceptive Dalai Lama.

    Where do the Trimondis say that sexual ‘practices’ were occurring in thies ‘initations? I don’t remember reading that anywhere, and since you have gotten on here , focusing on this to try , as usually happens with ‘true believers.” to derail everything else that is said, by picking on one thing, which I say you are in complete error about, you get people to focus on THAT, instead of the real issue about the voluminious evidence that this is a thought control cult.

    So point out where they said that ‘sexual practices’ occurred during the Kalachakra?

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  195. “So you are saying there are two versions of Kalachakra?”

    There is only one Kalachakra, it´s always the same version, but what the guru realises with advanced practicioners while initiations is different. Same time, same actions and words, but secret content. That´s what is written in the commentary.

    But the way you ask shows you have no idea. So I`m out of the discussion now.

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  196. “Well, the point of Vajrayana is to always keep the ‘tantrika’ in a state of fear, anxiety and panic. CTR used to say that a good tantrika was always in a state of panic.The teacher says X and then says Y when you get ‘comfortable’ and then says Z after that and on and on, all to ‘compassionately lead one to ‘groundlessness” the ‘breakthrough’ to “one taste”. .So the methodology of a ‘good vajrayana teacher’ it follows, is to always be pulling the rug out from under you, with ‘trickery’ never letting your have any ground, This led to abuses on the part of the teacher, and the state of constant anxiety within the group and teacher student situation.But you were told that was ‘good”. and for your own good. Well it was good, and one could never ever question anything that the teacher was doing , Never period.”

    The above is a good description of what happens in the Educo Cult.

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  197. The complete negativity on this site toward TB

    My read as a non Buddhist, is that people are trying to show that TB is not Buddhism at all,
    but Lamaism. It is an attempt at clarification. Obviously if you regard TB as Buddhism you feel defensive, but if you see it as Lamaism, you actually feel TB is a fraud.

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  198. @Marte-Micaela Riepe,

    So you are saying there are two versions of Kalachakra? One for the general public and one for advanced practitioners? So, when he gives the higher levels in public, it’s the public version and there are secret higher levels that run parallel to those? Is that what you are saying?

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  199. @dialogueireland,
    The complete negativity on this site toward TB makes me feel like rising to its defense, even though I am on the fence about it. Even though I am feeling somewhat defensive, I am willing to listen to what you folks have to say.

    @everyone else,
    I will ask this one more time: Why do the Trimondis base their whole book on something which I know to be at least partially false? They claim the Dalai Lama does secret sex rites when he is giving the higher levels of Kalachakra. I know this is not the case, (at least not in public), so does this mean that the Trimondis don’t really know what they are talking about? Are they insiders, or are they just people who have done a lot of reading and are making a whole lot of assumptions about something they do not know anything about? It appears they have never attended an actual Kalchakra initiation – at least not one where he went up higher. I am asking an honest question here and hoping someone has an answer. If someone can give me a good answer to this question, I will listen with an open mind.

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  200. “… we do not know what the Dalai Lama does behind closed doors.”

    It´s better to say: What was he practising “Behind the Curtain” on his way to get into the state of mind he has today. Although he was found as the so called incarnation of the former DL, he had to realise all the steps to the so called enlightment within different tantras, especially the Kalachackra Tantra.

    Have a look at the “Commentary of the Kalacakra Tantra” by Geshe Lharampa Ngawang Dhargyey (1985)

    It´s well known, that there is a version of the Kalachakra that’s for the general public, which is the version the Dalai Lama lectures on, when he offers the Kalachakra teaching in different parts of the world. But there is a secret version only for advanced practitioners, and that is the version in the Commentary book.

    For example the vase-initiation: You go there and get some water on your head. But what does it mean for the advanced practicioners?

    “”If one keeps the secrets, this water will turn into nectar!!!, which gives rise to the siddhis or realizations!!!; but if one fails to do so, it shall turn into the molten iron of the hell realm. This indicates the great danger of disclosing tantric secrets to those who are not fit to receive them.”

    Water will turn into nectar, and nectar is the liquid of women´s vagina, which is one of the secret fluids in the highest practises. And, because of only men are really involved into that secret transformation as well as in that conception of reaching that kind of enlightment, women are completely displaced in the ritual unless as a real or imagined sexual partner. Have you been one in your imaginations, Anonynous?

    If one does not keep the secrets he will be cursed and threatened with a state of hell realms.

    So the commentary says: If the secrets are not kept, one’s head and heart will burst.”

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  201. It would seem there is a disability to accept nothing else but the cult belief system?

    Dr. Robert J. Lifton’s Eight Criteria for Thought Reform and Lamaism, the Cultist form of Buddhism

    No. 5 – Sacred Science. The group’s doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.

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  202. I do not assume anything, I was just trying to understand what you meant. I do not want to take us of course, but I have a feeling you are not quite as on the fence as you say. So I am totally open to see how this develops.

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  203. “However, I was present when he gave higher levels of Kalachakra and I didn’t see any secret sex rites.”

    How do you know that it never happened DURING an actual initiation? You said yourself that the Dalai Lama was doing it differently and in huge numbers. As it did not happen in front of your eyes you choose to believe it is not part of the indoctrinated acceptance of devotee slavery to Lamaism? It is still a ridiculous argument; however, you are free to believe anything you want to. It does not change anything accept give you an excuse to disbelieve everything else. I will say that it is a very lame excuse that enables you to cling on to Lamaism. Are you really that comfortable with women being used as sex slaves?

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  204. @dialogueireland,

    Why do you assume people with disabilities can’t speak coherently?

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  205. The point was you said you were suffering from disability, but I can see no evidence of it in your comments.
    It seemed to be a distraction when you were being defensive after Chris was questioning whether you were a spy?

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  206. Angie, it’s true that we do not know what the Dalai Lama does behind closed doors. However, I was present when he gave higher levels of Kalachakra and I didn’t see any secret sex rites. I can say with certainty that the Trimondis are incorrect to say that sex rites take place DURING the actual inititation. What he does in secret is another matter, but the Trimondis were talking aboutm the actual empowerment and they are wrong, so I don’t trust their information.

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  207. “They claim that the Dalai Lama does secret sex rites when he gives the higher levels of initiation. I KNOW this is not true, so they are not telling the truth in their book.”

    How do you know that he does not do secret sex rites? I did not know that the ‘guru’ Quinn had sex with young women; even the wives of the cult were available. There were rumours; however, like you I would have said that any group I attended did not turn into sexual orgies or sexual rituals. It so happens that they take place behind closed doors. Only those very close to him knew about it, however, whatever he was doing caused the gym in Eccles Street to become known as a brothel. The men took total advantage of the women. Quinn encouraged them to do this. I know of one who spoke about finding herself on a man’s lap and not knowing how she got there. She got up very quickly when she realised what was happening. One woman had the courage to report ‘alleged’ sexual abuse charges against Tony Quinn. Unfortunately, due to bad health she accepted a payoff before it went to court.

    I ask again, how do you know that the Dalai Lama has not conducted sexual rites? It seems a ridiculous argument when Lamaism/Tibetan ‘buddhism’ is based on repeated daily sexual activity to attain ‘enlightenment’. Does not the Dalai Lama consider himself ‘enlightened’? To attain it he would have had multiple devotees at his service. I cannot understand why you would find it hard to believe that he is involved with providing women who are ‘open’/hypnotised/manipulated into accepting the ritual otherwise what is the point of taking vows unless to serve their lama?

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  208. dialogueireland, on December 29, 2013 at 10:13 am said:

    “I do note you run for the exit door when challenged! Stay the course”

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  209. @BackAtHome, What? Are you saying I am giving you orders? I wasn’t even talking to you or responding to you at all. Or are you saying these are things I should think when I am around lamas? Please clarify.

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  210. I am talking about Kalachakra here. As for other empowerments he gives, he won’t even let students in unless they can agree to the commitments ahead of time. That is how strict he is. He does not just give empowerments willy-nilly, the way some teachers do. That said, I do think people are affected by his energy, even at a mere public talk, although he may not do it on purpose.

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  211. Why do you think I am here to be challenged? What makes you think, you can give orders to me?

    I do note your pattern: carrot and stick. A stripped down version of the “love-bombing” in spiritual and religious groups?

    Rethink your own course.

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  212. Angie wrote: “When you know the DL has gone beyond level seven they must be lying about it for a reason and I suspect it is to hide the sexual ritual aspect of TB. They do this to hide the abusive nature of using women to reach ‘enlightenment’. You are right; you cannot believe anything they say at this point.”

    Angie, I am not talking about what the lamas say. I am talking about what the Trimondis say. The Trimondis are authors who wrote a book about Kalachakra, which is supposed to expose the sexual abuses within TB. They have no reason to lie about the sexual practices that go on. Quite the contrary, the point of the book was to expose all of the abuse and secret sexual practices, etc. Where I have a problem with this book is the fact that they stated something which is simply not true and it isn’t just a trivial matter. it was the point of their book. They claim that the Dalai Lama does secret sex rites when he gives the higher levels of initiation. I KNOW this is not true, so they are not telling the truth in their book. If they are going to build an entire book on something that is false, I cannot trust the book.

    Agreed that an empowerment affects one, no matter whether one takes the vows or is just there as an observer. Also, it’s true that I have been at empowerments where I felt things were ‘planted’. Depends on the lama and the empowerment. I do feel that the Dalai Lama is pretty honest about stating what people are getting themselves into before he gives it. For example, he will state that he is giving Tantric vows before he gives them and he will warn people not to take them if they don’t wish to. He gives people the choice, although other lamas are more tricky and they slip the vows in without the student realizing that they just took vows. The Dalai Lama does not do it that way. Regardless of what you think of him or his methods, he appears to be open about what he is giving and how he is giving it. I can’t say the same for some other teachers who give empowerments and slip in all kinds of things and then at the end, they say they are your guru and you must do what they say, etc.

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  213. Angie, the Trimondis were not trying to hide any sexual practice, just the opposite. They were trying to exspose them. I will read the rest of your message and answer further…

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  214. dialogueireland, on December 30, 2013 at 5:40 pm said:

    “Anonymous I meant to ask you what particular disability are you suffering from, as you are extremely coherent?
    Is it a repetitive syndrome? Was just wondering…….”

    @dialogueireland, No need to get snarky with me. If you did not mean it that way, it sounds rude. I repeat what I say because I am correcting myself and trying to clarify.

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  215. Anonymous

    You say: “But I question some of the validity of some of it when authors are saying thing which I KNOW are not truthful, such as about the Dalai Lama not going beyond level seven in public. I know that isn’t true,”

    When you know the DL has gone beyond level seven they must be lying about it for a reason and I suspect it is to hide the sexual ritual aspect of TB. They do this to hide the abusive nature of using women to reach ‘enlightenment’. You are right; you cannot believe anything they say at this point.

    Also you say: “There is only reading from texts and chanting, giving vows, etc. Also, he does not give the vows without stating so first and going through them. He says that a person can take it as an observer, or as a participant. Observers merely receive the “blessing” of being present and they do not have to take the vows.”

    Those who think they are there for the “blessing” are fooling themselves as chanting puts one into a hypnotic state so everyone there is affected by what is said and done. Does any of them know exactly what is taking place accept the Dalai Lama? I attended seminars and group gatherings where certain people were worked on separately and I can honestly say that no-one in that group, no matter how innocent they thought it was or how separate they thought they were from the ‘main’ event; no-one escaped being hypnotically affected by what transpired. It is about conditioning your mind to accepting TB indoctrination and I would be very surprised if all of this was explained to people attending such a gathering. Following such a ritual the religious/cult beliefs are imbedded in the mind to be repeated, cult speak that is ‘switched’ on; ‘the switch in the mind’ is how Quinn, the ‘alleged’ sexual deviant ‘guru’ of the Educo cult explained it.

    I understand that you are beginning to question the ‘truth’ of it all. I went through a period of time when that was very important to me, however, this approach may keep you stuck and it is best to let go completely to find yourself rather than rooting around in the cult trying to find the ‘truth’ of sorcerous practices.

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  216. Anonymous I meant to ask you what particular disability are you suffering from, as you are extremely coherent?
    Is it a repetitive syndrome? Was just wondering…….

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  217. I meant to say that parts of their book may be true, but like I said above, I do not trust their word because they are obviously misinformed on some matters, which are not trivial. It is a HUGE mistake to claim that weird sex rites go on when they never even attended an initiation where he went higher up. Since they base their ENTIRE book on this assumption, it falls apart and crumbles at its very foundation.

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  218. This is not to say that other aspects of their book may be true, but the problem is knowing which parts are true and which parts are not. Since I’ve already caught them in an untruth, I am suspicious of anything else that comes from them as a source.

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  219. My point is that the Trimondis base their whole book on the premise that the Dalai Lama only gives the first seven initiations in public and that weird sex rites go on when he goes up to the higher levels. What I’m saying is that he goes up higher now (even if he did not do so before) and there are no weird sex rites going on when he goes higher. So the Trimondis are not reliable because it seems that they never actually attended a Kalachakra initiation that went up higher, so they are basing what they claim on things they read or studied. They are just reading texts and making assumptions, but they are obviously outsiders. That’s what it seems to me anyway.

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  220. Yes, I *was* there and the Trimondis should be too before they write about what goes on at the higher levels. There is only reading from texts and chanting, giving vows, etc. Also, he does not give the vows without stating so first and going through them. He says that a person can take it as an observer, or as a participant. Observers merely receive the “blessing” of being present and they do not have to take the vows.

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  221. And the Trimondis wrote that about the Kalachakra initiations in I believe 2003? I am sure they don’t know, nor would anyone unless they were there, ‘were you?” that he went all the way through. He is getting older, more bold about what he is doing , and thinks that the controlled media in this country and corporatism (it was at the Verizon center remember?) will protect him now.

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  222. Did you ever hear of Self Secret? Most people taking those intitiations whether the first 7 or all the way up, have no idea what they are doing, even when they ar taking oaths to these lamas they don’t know they are being already initiated into the Vajrayana. That is deception. You seem to still be arguing about minutia and , as you say, you still want to ‘believe’. Until you are not into ‘belief’ anymore, and want to reclaim your critical intelligence, which is not rejected in Dzogchen, but embraced, and can’t be gotten rid of anyway, it will nag at you forever. Half in half out, it would be better to go all the way in then, then to be in limbo. It can be a cozy cocoon of sorts, ignorance can be soft and wooly. It’s up to you.

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  223. I’m not trying to argue or anything. I believe that there is a lot of not-so-pretty stuff out there about Tibetan Buddhism, etc. But I question some of the validity of some of it when authors are saying thing which I KNOW are not truthful, such as about the Dalai Lama not going beyond level seven in public. I know that isn’t true, so I question whether I can believe the Trimondis at all, or whether they really know what they are talking about.

    As for the other authors you mentioned, I have read parts of these things online and I have heard of some of them. I would be curious to see what they have to say. Like I say, I am open to hearing the other side, since all we generally heard are praises for these lamas, TB, etc.

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  224. I meant to say, this is one reason I don’t trust what the Trimondis say.

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  225. Thanks for the list. I have read some of them, or parts of some of them as well. I read parts of TIDS on the Tara and Charles Carreon website. I agree, parts were funny and I can tell they know what they are talking about, lol! Did you ever see “Fifty Ways To Leave Your Lama”, which is a parody of “Fifty Ways To Leave Your Lover”?

    As for the Trimondis, there are some things I question in their book, (which I did read years ago online). At the time, I did not know whether to trust it and I still don’t know. For example, they claim that the Dalai Lama only gives the first 7 initiations in public and the secret sexual stuff goes on when he gives the higher levels of initiation. This is not true when he gave the initiation in India in January of 2012, he went all the way up to the top level and it was in front of at least 200,000 or 300,000 people. He could never do those rituals in front of such a large crowd and keep it secret – and not everyone there was even Tibetan Buddhist. He knows that, so if he did those things in public, it would be a huge scandal. Also, in Washington D.C. he went all the way up to level 11, or higher. (He said it was “all the way up to union”.) In Washington D.C. there were no young ten year old girls there taking part in secret sex rites. Since secret sex rites being part of Kalachakra is the premise of the Trimondi’s whole, entire book, they discredit themselves by claiming something that know is not the truth. Of course, this isn’t to say that the lamas don’t do these rituals behind closed doors, later on, after the public departs from the initiation, etc. But he does go up to the higher levels in India and he did go higher in Washington D.C. as well. There were no weird sex rites involved.

    Having said this, the sex rites in Kalachakra could have been part of lay rituals which were done in Tibet and India in the past, or perhaps they still do them. It’s also possible that initiates hold secret orgies behind closed doors. Who knows? But the Dalai Lama does give the higher Kalachakra initiations in public, (although usually not in the West), and when he gives them in public there are no weird sexual rites going on. This is one of the reasons I don’t trust what they say – because I know it isn’t true. At least it’s not true to say he does not go beyond level seven in public.

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  226. Correction’ that was Journey Without Goal by CTR not Journey to Enlightment, I have read so many Lama books over the years the titles merge now.

    here is a good list of non-Lama indoctrination histories and research to start with :

    “Friendly Feudalism”
    by Michael Parenti , very clear and and by a Historian.

    Timondi Online Magazine, an amazing well researched collection of information gathered in one place regarding Tantric Lamaism: Although you say you don’t agree, with what they say, I have to say, after my own experience they are top notch researchers who also were in the ‘cult of Lamaism’ and came out determined to educate the public. They are dead on right in their writings and will expand anyone’s knowledge about Tibetan Lamaism and the Dalai Lama.

    http://www.trimondi.de/EN/front.html

    “The Struggle for Modern Tibet” The Autobiography of Tashi Tsering, by Melvyn Golstein, Willima Siebenschuh and Tashi Tsering.
    – Tsering was a dancer in the 14th Dalai Lamas entourage, he reveals the ‘real life’ under this regime of ‘compassion.’ where sexual abuse was common in the monasteries and physical abuses, he is not writing as a polemic against it, he is just stating the facts of his life under the Dalai Lama’s Tibet.

    Any other books by Melvyn Goldstein, actually went to Tibet, and is a great historian on Tibetan and its lama monastic theocracy.

    Stephen Batchelor ‘s “Confessions of a Budhist Atheist” Stephen was a monk in the Dalai Lama regime, and the DL’s translator, and really goes into what the Buddha ‘really ‘ said since he studied Pali and Sanskrit , which the Lamas do not know, nor do any of the Lama translators generally know. . He had to leave Tibetan lamaism, after realizing it was NOT what the Buddha actually taught.

    Also Maxime Vivas’s “Behind the Smile” the Hidden Face of the Dalai Lama, you can get it on Amazon for about 16.00 a very brief but great expose of the lies by the Dalai Lama about Tibet and his many doubletalk stances. This was even before all the equivocating about the massive self-immolation’s of the monks that he still wont say “Stop”. Very short book but a lot of information..

    Also “Cults in our Midst” by Singer( who also goes through and relies on Liftons eight criteria above , but expands it, and Steven Hassan’s books on Cult indoctrination, Steven was a Moonie, but it doesn’t matter all cults use the same techniques and Tibetan lamaism is the sine qua non of cult thought control. There are lots of good anti cult material out there and some psychologists, a few, that haven’t been indoctrinated by the ‘new religious movement’ screen and “pass” cults are now given to become multimillion dollar “Churches” tax free and with hidden finances.

    And TIDS, Tantra Induced Delusional Syndrome by Charles Carreon, he was a long time student of Gyatrul Rinpoche and knows what he is talking about ,it is also very funny,.. you can get this on Amazon for .99 cents.

    There are lots of other books out there that can ‘unindoctrinate you’ but these are the most helpful, in my opinion. At least they were for me. You have to deconstruct the massive programming your mind has been ‘soaked in by Lamaism” even if you were only in it for a few months, they get you, and hovering on the fringe, some people do that for Life! I have seen them, it’s like a terrible ‘no mans’ land’ but very helpful for the Lamas, they would rather have a legion of people like that, instead of people that get too close and see behind the curtain!

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  227. Anyway, enough, you just need to do some research on your own, start reading the real history of Tibet, not the spoon fed fairy tales by the Lamas, and trust your ‘fear’ If we are ‘fearful’ it is because our good sense is warning us to stay away, that this situation is not one to be trusted.

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  228. I have to say that CTR did warn people ‘up front” it was all there in one of his first published books, Journey to Enlightenment where he explicitly describes the teacher student relationship. This appealed to the 60’s generation , of course , who was alway ‘upping the ante” for ‘risk taking’ and were not as ‘risk averse’ as the current generations, so the Lamas are very deceptive these days, and now present Vajrayana, as just ‘happiness’ training, and ‘mindfulness training’ to lower your stress. In fact, the Dalai Lama , in his amazing masks of deceptions actually discourages people who flock to him, to even get into Tibetan “Buddhism” ‘keep your own religion ‘ he says, Of course he wants people to do that, HE doesn’ want the masses of people he fools to know what is ‘really going on’ inside these Tibetan Lamaist sanghas, that is why he created the Mind Life Institute, as another vehicle to fool people.

    CTR made it clear from the beginning that it was going to ‘increase your stress’ all the way through the process, and he created that atmosphere, appealing for those of us that like ‘roller coasters”. Still one was fooled by all the talk about ‘questioning everything’ buddha talk, you could question him in public talks , that was it, but it was a tyrannical situation. within the sangha, with pathological levels of denial, and repression and thought control by the group. You don’t even need a charismatic leader, in this group and there isn’t one.

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  229. Well, the point of Vajrayana is to always keep the ‘tantrika’ in a state of fear, anxiety and panic. CTR used to say that a good tantrika was always in a state of panic.The teacher says X and then says Y when you get ‘comfortable’ and then says Z after that and on and on, all to ‘compassionately lead one to ‘groundlessness” the ‘breakthrough’ to “one taste”. .So the methodology of a ‘good vajrayana teacher’ it follows, is to always be pulling the rug out from under you, with ‘trickery’ never letting your have any ground, This led to abuses on the part of the teacher, and the state of constant anxiety within the group and teacher student situation.But you were told that was ‘good”. and for your own good. Well it was good, and one could never ever question anything that the teacher was doing , Never period. And of course it was good for the teachers self-indulgences and justification for abuses, and exploitation, I am sure this is how Sogyal is operating in his sangha He is engaging in all his abuses for the students future ‘enlightenment, Right? Well, if one has any sanity, as eventually some do, and decide to leave. If one had wanted to chose a ‘sado-masochistic relationship of master and slave that would be one thing and that’s what you knew you were chosing when you entered Tibetan Lamaism ‘s paradigm, ,But no newbie knows that is the ‘game” up front, when you enter these Tibetan lama sanghas, i.e. that one will be engaged in ‘trickery’ all the way through until one either drops the game, and leaves, or becomes a perfect mind controlled . Of course there wre stodgier, plodding Tibetan lamas and they created a more stultifying atmosphere in their sanghas, so you could have a smorgasborg of choices of these lama situtations until you found the one the fit, but no matter which one was chosen you were in a situation that was not going to be anything but ‘theatre’ on the outside, and a whole different story about what was really going on , the further in one went.

    This ‘theatre’ or ‘teaching model,of varjayana, whether it be the stodgier Madyamika teachings, or the more ‘exciting’ and frightening tantrika path has been especially retooled for westerners by the way, since the average Tibetan in Tibet, i.e. 95% never had any connection like this with Lama teachers, unless they were the wealthy 5%, or tulkus being primed to replace the old ones on their thrones of abuses, The Tibetan population were not taught anything, they were kept purposely illiterate as a work force for the lamas and their coterie. Westerners have no idea that Tibetans were not given any education by theses Lamas , not even religious education, unless they were the monks who joined the monastery ( woman weren’t even allowed to step inside the monasteries) and most were simply taught to memorize texts and chant and , count (they had a lineage of clerk monks to count all the loot they garnered from their people) The ordinary people were particularly kept distant, and learned the myths of the Lamas from the generations of families kept in their ‘thrall’ that the Lamas were “gods” who had to be obeyed in all things. All these psychologists and scientists and academics who are trailing around after the Dalai Lama have no idea what a brutal regime it really was, they actually believe that these Lamas were great teachers to the Tibetans themselves. Instead of how they kept their own people in such dark ignorance and poverty and mental slavery.

    They couldn’t do that with westerners, who had already educations that surpassed the Lamas they are prostrating to, so they had to retool the whole Vajrayana trip for us. They actually are much happier , I believe, when they can go to Asian countries, and more often just give abishekas and blessings to Asians who don’t expect any teachings beyond that. The Asians seem to be very practical, ‘money for blessings” That is what they are most comfortable with: handing out blessings and taking in the loot from other countries.. That is probably changing there too, however, since they are apparently sexually abusing women there as well, they have had to become more egalitarian out of necessity they cant just ‘demand ”consorts’ from the people, like the old days. So they have to set up a ‘teaching situation” in Asian countries as well.

    All you have to do anonymous, is start reading the ‘history of Tibet’ beyond the Snow Lion and Wisdom Publication Lama censoring publishing houses. It will be a real ‘eye opener’ for you.

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  230. Sorry, Chris. I was replying to an earlier post and so it seems as though my responses are disjointed. Sometimes my posts appear, after you’ve already started a new post, so my earlier replies come AFTER your latest replies.

    Yes, I have noticed the deception in Vajrayana TB. They claim to have good reasons for this, but it makes me not able to trust what they say. After all, if they deceive then how am I to know when they are telling the truth? That’s why I think it would be useless to ask them any questions about what’s really going on in secret because they probably would not tell me the truth anyway.

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  231. I think that only the lamas teach it anyway, so if one tried to find a Dzogchen teacher, they would have to study with a Vajrayana lama.

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  232. I agree with you Back at Home about ‘institutionalized Buddhism” which started right after the Buddha dies. All institutionalized religions become corrupt and Buddhism in general is no exception, particularly since it has always taken a patriarchal misogynistic form.

    Do you know that 969 ‘s Leader was in influenced by the Dalai Lama’s Kalachakara teachings of Vajrayana and its inner teachings to justify his holy war in Burma, or that Theravadin and Tibetan Vajrayana has merged thanks to Sharon Salzberg, Joseph Goldstein who started Insight meditation, and then becoming fanatic Lamaists, and students of Sogyal? and are now pushing the Scientism of the Mind Life Institute , where people don’t know this vajrayana tantra, and you have Sam Harris, a student of Vajrayana and mindfulness training, his main teacher being Sharon Salzberg and he is out fooling millions of people deceptively, either selif deception or both (Tibetan Lamaists are invovled in both, that he is a Secular Atheist? And Atheists and Scientists have no idea about his deep connection with the Tantric Buddhism that he is pushing while bashing Muslims? He has been actively part of the Dalai Lama clique through the Mind Life Insittute, started by the Dalai Lama to pretend to the world that it s about ‘mindfulness training” when it is a front to push Tibetan Lamaism? Sam Harris’s wifes books are endorsed by Dan Goleman who teachings with Sogyal, is a fanatic devotee of Sogyal and has been protecting him and his abuse for decades, very powerful coming from a popular psychologist who writes dozens of self-help books. Whereever you find the Vajrayana tantra you find DECEPTION, that is why they are the most dangerous, because they operate by deception.

    Tibetan Lamaism/Buddhism is the number one growing ‘buddhist religion’ and since it is really varjayana hindu cult tantric practice, it is confusing the world the very most. Thanks in no small part to the Dalai Lama masks of deception.

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  233. I think the Dzogchen teachings were ‘pure’ at one time, but the Lamas have so twisted it, and claimed a ‘monopoly’ on it, and are using it to lure in students into the tantric varjrayana, that it you would be hard pressed to find anyone able to teach it outside the corrupted Lama system. I haven’t tried , since leaving Lamaism, So I don’t know.

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  234. I guess my main question is, do they (and are they able to) twist Dzogchen as much as they do with Tantric/Vajrayana teachings? Is Dzogchen any cleaner?

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  235. Since you mentioned Dzogchen above, I was curious to know whether pursuing Dzogchen (as a separate path from Tantra) would be any different, since it is linked with Vajrayana within TB and one generally has to finish ngondro in order to study it. A lot of the teachers who teach Dzogchen are also Tantric gurus and are some of the most corrupt. But if one found a good teacher (if that is possible) who could give one the Dzogchen gnondro transmission and if one pursued the Dzogchen path, separate from Vajrayana, would it be possible to avoid the Vajrayana corruption? I have heard that one can practice Dzogchen as a separate path, (with its own gnondro) but from what I can tell, the two are so closely linked that there isn’t that much separation between the two, especially since most of the Dzogchen teachers are Vajrayana anyway.

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  236. But don’t look to Tibetan ‘Buddhism’ i.e. Tantric Hindu guru worshipping vajrayana to ‘clean up its act’. It’s ‘act’ is to be the opposite of every socially acceptable rule in our society. The Vajrayana , when it went main stream in Tibet, ruined any chances for that society to progress and grow, just as in India, , and we are seeing it’s destructive influences now in the west. It is a terribly thing when it goes ‘mainstream’ and these Lamas are one of their main ‘carriers”. There are other Hindu groups , such as Yogi Bhajan’s Tantric Yoga centers that are spreading all over the world now that he is dead, also carrying it , as well as many spin off groups, like Educo, that Angie has exposed. It is everywhere now, and whereever it goes, it creates chaos. It is, as we were warned, very dangerous.

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  237. correction, 21st century. Why the Tibetan hierarchy really hated Trungpa despite pretending to this day that they honor him and give him credit, is because he was explicitly and without the guile and pretense and hypocrisy of all these other Lamas, openly sexually promiscuous , drinking and acting with ‘crazy wisdom” (all things encouraged in the Vajrayana). They did not want this being revealed to the public so early in the massive infiltration and proselytising they had planned. For about 20 years after his death, they were able to clean up and sanitize his image, (his behavior and his Regents, almost destroyed the grand plan of i Tibetan Lama nfiltration) and it worked, also thanks to the Dalai Lama ‘mystique’ and Hollywood propaganda, the number one public relations conglomerate in the U.S. and Europe., also the second generation Lamas began to incorporate all the old Trungpa students,( bored with his son, and his Confusionism court,) into their ‘sanghas” where the tantric teachings and the sexual abuses are now covered up and kept very very secret again vis a vis the public who has a very short memory and doesn’t seem to know any history of Tantric ‘buddhism’ in the west, it is a new generation that has been primed through New Age and Yoga, to see it as all wonderful , whereas Trungpa always presented it as ‘very dangerous’ and not to be engaged in unless one was prepared to give up everything, which was much more honest of him, Sogyal thought he could ‘model’ Trunpa and have a ‘harem’ of willing sexual slaves , and he succeeded because he simultaniously created a very successful financial empire with the new ‘tax free Church status ‘ now given to the Lamas so that they have completely hidden finances, even from the IRS, , they would shun him as well, but he is now a multimillion dollar empire and money making for the Lamas always ‘trumps” anything, so the Lamas throw out a few ‘western gurus’ as a periodic sacrifice to the public, and keep their own egregious behaviors hidden, so they had to gather around Sogyal to protect themselves, and since they now had now a bevy of thousands of idiot psychologists, politicians, and corporate CEO’s , that have been fooled by the Dalai Lama mystique, it was a very different milieu than the 80’s when we also had a very different journalist media who was not in the thrall of corporatism, and would investigate and report things. So the Lamas have had a almost two and a 1/2 decades of ‘enabling’ support structures from all directions, a more cultified public in general, a more savy Lama cartel with millions to engage in P.R. and legal protection to hide there abuses and of course the Dalai Lama, whom they have all rallied around for ‘cover’ having before distrusted and kept away from him. . However, that protection, with all the scandals reaching the news media despite the censoring, is slowly changing,there is a small glimmer of hope that the west will reclaim its rational legacies, if not, be swallowed up in ignorance and confusion.

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  238. There are other streams that came through Tibet, such as Mahayana Buddhism, and that is incorported into the teachings, as well as Hinayana Buddhism, however, the main and primary teaching of Tibetan Lamaism is Varjayana Tantric hindustani guru worship, and vows are taken to consider the Lama ‘higher than the buddha” and your master, and to sacrifice your own ego to the master to obtain any progress on the path. Tantra was brought to Tibet by the Indian Sadhu , Padmasambha, considered a great sorcerer, and is ‘deified” . There is also a Dzochen stream that came through, from the Chan Buddhism stream, but the Lamas use this stream, to seduce and fool students to lure them into the Vajrayana, which , is their main teachings and considered the ‘highest teaching’ of Tibetan “buddhism’ it ‘infuses every other aspect’ of the teachings and subsumes them under the tantric guru worshipping ‘umbrella’ . the Hinanyana is referred to as the ‘lower vehicle’ and ‘narrow vehicle, and the Mahayana, and its concepts of ’emptiness’ and ‘bodhisattva ‘compassion’ give further excuse for all kinds of socially taboo behavior within Tibetan Lamaism, by taking ‘right motivation’ and adding it to the tantric mix of turning every social moral action on its head, in the name of ‘spreading the teachings ‘ in a Machivellian way, such that the means justifys the end” and by engaging in lying, deception, sexual activity even killing (there was a strong case for ‘blood sacrifice continuing into the 29th century see ” ‘Taming the Demons by Jacob Dalton , the occult, tantric practices became the pinnacle of Tibetan Lamaism, and is STILL the primarly teachings that allow someone like Sogyal ‘r ‘ to continue ‘beating and sexually exploiting his studtents’ and why all the other celebrity lamas, who many are also promiscuous sexually , have multiple ‘consorts’ protect him, they have to protect him, by protecting him they are protecting the Vajrayana teachings. You are pipe dreaming if you think that any ‘ There can be no ‘reform’ in Tibetan “buddhism’/Lamaism vajrayana, it’s fundamental teachings to to take all the taboo behaviors, and ‘transmute’ them into a a realization of ‘nonduality’ or ‘one taste’ of the phenomenal world, and therefore reach ‘enlightenment’ in one lifetime. Of course this serves to excuse within the ‘sanghas’ (the public only gets the hinayana and mahayana masks the lamas wear) all the behaviors that these lamas indulge in as they make slaves into their students.

    To ‘reform ‘ Tibetan Buddhism, the vajrayana would have to be seen as what they are doing, and for what it is ‘ guru-worshipping Hindustani caste system sexual tantra, and they are never going to do that, it would be the end of their whole system.

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  239. I do note you run for the exit door when challenged! Stay the course

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  240. That is exactly the opposite our research, which suggests it is Lamaism. Could you give evidence for your position and why you believe that?

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  241. Okay, this is going to be my last comment for a while.

    @dialogueireland: Again exactly the opposite – I am making clear distinctions between buddhism and TB. I know enough about the different meanings of both terms to use them accordingly. I thought that was understood here.

    It is not true that TB=Lamaism has nothing do with buddhism. The general public is blinded by constant references to “the buddha” or “we buddhists” or “modern buddhism” or “meditation in buddhism” and so on – terms used by TB these days. The general public does not know enough about different buddhist lineages. To the general public TB is a subgroup of buddhism and thus is buddhism.

    Or is this discussion not about the meaning of lamaist thought reform to the general public, but only to the members of this discussion? If the focus of this discussion was narrowed that much, then I indeed missed that.

    @Anonymous: “… boundaries … between teacher and student … enforcing them. … If a teacher breaks the rules they could be reported. I don’t know if such a system would work, but they need to at least hold a meeting in order to come up with something.”

    That has been done in the past and did not change anything. No wonder, when vows of secrecy are an inherent part of the tantric teachings and the guru has to be seen as being without fault. This all has been discussed here and at other places. All the necessary information is out there.

    I do agree, they better change very soon. The time when only they were pointing to the “wrongdoings” of people of other cultures are over. Their own “wrongdoings” are finding their way into the public consciousness now and they better have good answers.

    You are right, abuse happens in (probably) all religions. When it happens in the major western religion, it is all over the public press. When it happens in buddhism you can point the media to that fact and most of them remain silent or rarely publish online or newspaper articles. So when this is reported in the television evening news and newspaper frontpages for days and weeks with names and pictures of the buddhists who did that, that’s when I will get back a little of the confidence in our own culture which was lost because of the ignorant, irresponsible support for “buddhism” (which in reality was TB) by our own media circus.

    Good luck.

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  242. I think Buddhist philosophy is the foundation of TB, even if they embellish on top of it.

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  243. BackAtHome you seem to have missed the direction of our studies since June. What you are calling TB is in fact Lamaism and has nothing to do with Buddhism, hence the clarification of our terminology.
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/category/buddhist/tibetan-buddhism-lamaism/

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  244. BackAtHome, you are right about abuse happening in ALL types of Buddhism. Also, abuse happens in ANY religion, no matter what it is. But the Tantric stuff in TB makes it a bit worse because it can be twisted to justify anything and then it becomes acceptable. That is the main problem with TB. I’m not saying TB is all bad, but there needs to be reform in the Vajrayana system. They need to figure out what the boundaries are between teacher and student and come up with ways of enforcing them. That would be a good place to start. If they don’t want to get involved with allegations about certain teachers (such as Sogyal) they could simply set up rules and students could learn what the rules are. If a teacher breaks the rules they could be reported. I don’t know if such a system would work, but they need to at least hold a meeting in order to come up with something.

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  245. I usually befriended people who left, or at least they weren’t as much into it, lol! The reason I befriended them was because they were a lot nicer than the die-hard types. There was one friend very much into it, but we are no longer in touch. This person, who was the only one honest enough to tell me anything, definitely helped to give me a window into TB world. But as they got deeper in, I no longer heard the secret stuff, due to Tantric vows, etc.

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  246. @Chris: There are facts about other buddhist groups and communities. Have you read the Shimano files? That’s Zen. Soka Gakkai – Zen, too. What about worldwide abuse and even pedophile cases – they are not all TB, are they? What about the violent clashes between buddhists and muslims (see your own post from October 9, 2013) – that’s not TB.

    I am sure you know how to distinguish between the different varieties of buddhism. But more regular westerners like me just hear about the peacefulness of buddhism (in general, without the necessary distinction) and then we have these reports about abuse cases and violence and power hierarchies.

    Also, I can say that many buddhists I personally met tended to be mentally dominant or influencing, if not manipulating. Apparently there are similarities between buddhists of different backgrounds.

    Of course I am not saying every buddhist is a bad person. But I am saying a statement like “Buddhism is peaceful” is not true.

    Quite a few people feel they were deceived by TB. If we now say “Oh, the bad guys are only in TB. As long as it is not TB, you will be safe within buddhism” – what do you think how long will it take for the next people getting damaged in other non-TB groups? And how is a “new arrival” expected to know what is TB and what is not TB? And what if such a person starts with non-TB, gets sucked in by the big melting pot formed by all the various buddhist groups, and eventually makes new “friends” from TB groups?

    Do you remember your initial enthusiasm when you thought you had found a positive way of living? If we look at us now, how much of that do we still have after our buddhist experience? Not so many happy people in these forums. Don’t we have a responsibility for not more people getting damaged, their faith twisted and their hope mangled?

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  247. You are indeed very lucky , the older students of Lamaism , many disillusioned now, made many friends over the years and it binds them in limbo forever.

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  248. That’s kind of where I’m at – half in, half out and I don’t want to be that way. I want to either be totally in it or totally out of it, not just circling around never belonging, yet not really separate. But I haven’t found a teacher to study with that I feel I can totally trust and I am now starting to question the whole thing. I have come to the realization that ANY TB group I join will always have the same guru worship and everything will always revolve around the guru. Unless I can feel the same as they do about their guru, I just can’t be a full member. It may be a good thing that I never made many friends in these sanghas and the ones I did make aren’t in touch much, or they left TB as well. They are nice people, but sometimes I feel they are confused as well.

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  249. And I wasn’t advocating not being ‘anonymous’ anonymous, it took me 10 years to fully come out of the insidious controls that they had implanted in my mind. I really was half out in 1999, then jumped into another Lama group, (common) the after terrible disgust with the first one, so it take a long time to first shake off their thought control techniques of fear and face the group nastiness when you even begin to question anything. The first group, when I was critical and questioning , attacked my mercilessly, and I was saying very mild things compared to how I feel and speak now, so well you should be disturbed by their responses, they are a vicious bunch when you even begin to question the fold, (which is one of the criteria of a cult, not allowing any criticism of the group).

    Knowing that aspect, DI encourages anonymity if that is what you need at first. It was much , much later, only last year that I said screw that, that is just part of their insidious hold on me still, a fear ‘vestige” left over. I do believe if more people were willing to speak out honestly and openly , because believe me their are dozens of almost out Tibetan Lama cult members I know , that just can’t make the final leap out, they can’t leave the friends they accumulated over 40 years in some cases, so they form a quivering little ‘sangha’ within the Tibetan Lama sanghas, half in half out, and the most confused of all, it is a kind of Tibetan lama purgatory for them, they can’t leave, and they can’t really stay, so they are ‘no where’ unable to free themselves and lead the life of a truly independent person, reowning their own western culture. They are the saddest of all. Old women and men now, in a limbo land, nostalgic for what they thought they had, and what they believe they lost.

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  250. Ambedkar who wrote the Constitution for a Democratic India, (which failed miserable because the Hindu gurus stayed in power and continued the caste system) called the Tibetan Lamas “Buddhist Brahmins” Ambedkar became a Buddhist after rejecting Hinduism for its caste system, its gurus, and its misogyny. He rejected the Lamaist form of Buddhism for the same reason.

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  251. Back at Home:

    You continue to call Tibetan Lamaism , ‘buddhism’ that is the first deception that Tibetan lamaism has perpetrated on the western public, to confuse and get people distracted by saying that anyone criticizing Lamaism is criticizing Buddhism. I still have a Buddhist rupa in my living room, I do not reject buddhism per se, I reject lying , deceiving , and sexual abuse and violence perpetrated , upon upon innocent spiritual seekers who think they are coming into Tibetan Lamaism to study Buddhism. IT is NOT Buddhism, it is Tantric, Hindustani guru worship, they are on golden brocaded thrones, they have people prostrating to them, and taken oaths with them as they go further into Lamaism to obey them in all things, get them to work like slaves for them, and sexually giving up their wives , daughters and children, to them, giving them billions in donatons so they can build more temples and centers and monasteries in order for one think to to prey upon more people They are a cult , they meet each and every critieria of a cult, that kept their own people mentally enslaved and still do , burning themselves up for them, they have massively thought controlled the west into believing they are Buddhist instead of a Hindustani tantric cult, that all people have to do is open their eyes, look around come out of the purposely deceptions they are perpetrating and take the blinders off. It is hard to do that because the Dalai Lama has developed a coterie of corrupt and ignorant but wealthy and influential corporate/CEOs/ princes, and benefactors and academics and psychologists all perpetrating his myth, some ignorantly and some purposely for their own insidious reasons.

    They are not Buddhism, they are not what the Buddha taught. I am tired of people conflating what I am saying with being critical about Buddhism. I do not think any Buddhist group is absolved from corruptions, over the milleniums but nothing compares to the authoritarian repression inside these sanghas, whereby soon the Lamas have you giving up all critical reasoning, and questioning and enslaved to them and their continued abusive kleptocracy. There is nothing that compares to this, except other Hindu cults that are also proliferating. They are often working together , like Tsoknyi r and his Hare Krishna kirtin chanting, or the Dalai Lama who was recently honored at the radically conservative Hindu National party annual ceremony where he was introduced as a ‘fellow Hindu’. What does it take to cut through people’s brainwashing on this? Probably something so radical that they do , that it will not be able to be denied any longer that they are not Buddhism that is their mask to hide behind.

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  252. @Chris: Nobody is not influenced. But my point was quite the opposite of “Who am I to judge?”. I presented a lot of information in the course of this discussion to prove that.

    What defines my position is the values I believe in – and oh so seldom find in real life. When the political system of my culture was violating those values, I disagreed with my culture. When church was violating those values, I disagreed with church. When buddhism claims to supoort these values but only uses them for propaganda reasons to create more followers, I disagree with buddhism. If Anti-Cult movement begins to violate these values I disagree with Anti-Cult movement.

    The values themselves are important. But the persons, the organizations and the names we use for these values all too often create problems. Is every “christian” a good/bad person? Certainly not. Is every “buddhist” a good/bad person? Is every “muslim” a good/bad person? Is every “jew” a good/bad person? Is every “hindu” a good/bad person? Is even a single person always good/bad?

    It is exactly this stereotyped thinking that created the most cruel atrocities in history of mankind. It begins with thinking “We are the good ones”, which leads to “We are the better ones”, followed by “The others are the bad ones” and finally “We have every right to fight the others…” up to “… by any means”.

    When buddhism turned out to follow that pattern, that was one of the biggest disappointments and alone that would be enough to discard buddhism completely. (Please note the ‘-ism’)

    @Angie: “Why would anyone want to be influenced …” In my case the answer is, before buddhism it was unthinkable for me, that anyone could weave such a net of deceptions claiming to follow a path of peacefulness while in reality trying to create a worldwide mind-control. Because that was so unthinkable for me, I believed they meant true peacefulness. What a lie that was. For my defense I can only say, that at that time we were deceived, we had no chance to suspect it was a lie (a good part of this world is still believing it) and that I am truely sorry for spreading it when I did believe it. And after understanding it was a lie, I began to spent quite some time and effort to expose them. They know who I am and in the last years there were not many truely light-hearted days.

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  253. But I see the point you were trying to make, lol! It is odd to be discussing Buddhism, especially TB while the turkey is cooking, lol!

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  254. Actually, a lot of Buddhists in Western culture do participate in Christmas with their families. They may not be Christian, but they don’t boycott Christmas, lol!

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  255. I am wondering what are your views of religions in general which are not Christian-oriented? Is this site affiliated with any particular religion, or is it only for cult awareness in general?

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  256. That was my point. It was about our culture not about you. Discussing Buddhism on Christmas Day while cooking the turkey is novel

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  257. I’ll accept your apology Chris, as long as I am no longer accused of being a spy whenever I don’t agree with something someone says about TB, or question what people are saying here.

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  258. Just to clarify, I am not Christian, nor did I consider myself Christian before I became involved with TB. I do however celebrate Christmas with family, since it is part of Western culture, regardless of religious affiliation.

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  259. We certainly have no problem with you maintaining your anonymity here and welcome your comments and my question was related to the fact that on December 25 most Christians would not be commenting as they are otherwise engaged. My reference to holidays is that in the US you have a separation of powers which means no more esteem is given to any faith or none. Here in Ireland it would have a different feel. This is not the first Christmas that we have had a lot of commenting on Buddhist topics.
    I think the anger is not directed at you but at the groups that have abused so many. Chris has apologised and I believe will be more tolerant of your progress in deciding on whether you should come out or as she sees it sit on the fence.
    Whatever you decide your anonymity is safe and your views will be respected.
    Chris sees not just the particular what the general picture with great clarity. Having given over nearly 30 years of her life to Lamaism she is angry at the waste of time this has involved.
    Happy Holidays to you all and all our North American visitors

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  260. Good, thanks for clarifying and I don’t use anonymous names, because I am not ‘afraid’ as you are to even be seen asking questions about TB, although I certainly was, at one time.

    Let’s just stay with that Anonymous, why should you be afraid, if the Buddha’s teachings (and of course the Lamas including the DL always ‘mouth this ” but don’t mean it, not one bit) were to ‘question everything, don’t take my word by question and find out for yourself” If that main tenet of True Buddhism ‘question everything’ is a blantant lie and deception in TB , when as you know, and are manifesting it, that you can ‘question nothing’ and particuarly not the Lamas, in Tibetan ‘buddhism.”

    No group, claiming to be ‘buddhist’ would make it a fearful proposition to even question itself, This is not buddhism, that is the first lie of Tibetn lamaism . When I cut through that first lie, it was so easy to then see all the others.

    Don’t you see how absurd this is, that you are afraid and can’t question anything inside the ‘sanghas’ of Lamaism?

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  261. @dialogueireland, I left the computer early on the 25th and visited family later on that day. There is no Buddhist celebration on he 26th or 27th.

    To everyone else, btw, I am just using the name “Anonymous” because I don’t want any Tibetan Buddhist friends or acquaintances to see that I am commenting or asking questions here. If they see my name, they will know who I am. This is actually the main reason for my “Anonymous” name. Otherwise I have nothing to hide, as far as my identity is concerned, nor am I a spy for TB.

    Even if TB agents come on here and try to infiltrate and report back, that doesn’t mean everyone is doing that and it’s good not assume that is the case EVERY time. I for one will not take part in this discussion if I am accused of being a spy just because I am not an angry ex-follower of TB. I am someone who is on the fence and asking questions – because I want to hear the other side and get a different point of view from the norm, which is to praise TB and never question it. I wanted to hear the other side so I can make up my own mind about it.

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  262. Here is Tsokny ‘rinpoche’s’ site , who started a Yogini Fund to:

    “The Yogini Project is dedicated to directly supporting the greater emergence of realized women in our time through diverse media projects and retreat sponsorship. Please visit their web site at: http://www.theyoginiproject.org

    All these lamas ever ‘think to do’ is ‘fundraise’ and of course, they will scoop out the biggest part of the money raised to perpetuate their misogynistic, all male patriarchal and exploitative Lamaism . Meanwhile, Tsoknyi ‘r’, number one supporter and enabler and protector of Sogyal the little toady sexual exploiter and ‘disempowerer’ of women continues on with his harem activities, thanks is great part to Mr. Tsoknyi , ‘feminist’ and pal of Sogyal.

    All these lamas engage in deception. It is second nature to them.

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  263. Yes, well Tenpel is a Dalai Lama agent, and Gelupa monk of the Dalai Lama and the deceptiveness of this blog linked about, of his, to pretend to be an open discussion to discuss the scandals in Tibetan Lamaism, when it is a vehicle , purposely set up by the Dalai Lama agents, to further confuse people who are starting to question Lamaism, and are upset about the scandals, such as the sexual abuse of Sogyal, and the fire setting and the Dalai Lama’s silence, this site is set up , BY the Dalai Lama group, with the usual ‘doublespeak’ and obfuscation is truly disgusting, but most people, suffering with confusion don’t know this, they are referred to this site, by Tenpel going on Rick Ross’s site and other places, sucking them in. Then they will be bombarded with this kind of ‘doublespeak’ and confused answers.

    Like I said, what these monks and western devotees have learned is DECEPTION, in the name of spreading Tibetan Lamaism. Deception is Compassion to them. Their Head Lama, Mr. Avolokitashavara is Mr. Number One Deceiver, in the world, all done in the name of their version of “Compassion.”

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  264. It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so dangerous to mind and body. Many a play could be written to send us into stitches of laughter at their expense and this is how it should end with crazy cult speak man-made religions; the illusion that Lamaism is Buddhism shattered to pieces!

    If you had been in the Educo cult they would expect you to heal yourself. Failing that there is the ‘request’ system, charging you 25 Euro at the time I attended in the 90’s, so the ‘messiah’ guru Quinn could heal you. The Educo cult’s version of ‘compassion’ costs money, thousands of Euro to have your mind taken over by a sorcerer.

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  265. Yes, Angie, “Compassion” to the Lamas and their adherents is to ‘bring everyone to the ‘true faith’ by whatever means possible , so they will pretend and do anything necessary to do this, i.e. being ‘feminists’ being “secular” now, (the Dalai Lama’s new ‘rap’, quite effective with psychologists and academics” and being ‘ecologists’ and
    ‘ecumencal’ . Using deception is encouraged to infiltrate society, and take it over .

    I remember having cut my finger that was heavily bleeding in the kitchen at one of the retreat centers, and asked a ‘tantrika’ who was busy doing her 100,000 mantras (to take an upcoming abhisheka with the h.s. drop out son of Trungpa, Mr. His Holiness and Mr. His Highness, King of Shambhala) if she would help me get a bandage out of the cupboard, she said she couldn’t stop because getting to the ‘abisheka ‘ and finishing her required ngondro was too important, and after, all , all the practices the Tibetan Lamaists do , lead them to the ability to be more like the Lamas and therefore ‘more compassionate.”

    It is more ‘compassionate’ you see, according to this logic, for the Dalai Lama to say nothing about the self-immolations(of course this isn’t true , he calls it a bodhisattva act and heroic, this encouraging it to continue, in many places documented) because one wouldn’t want to hurt the massive plan of Tibetan Lamaism to infiltrate and take over the world, their version of ‘compassion.” All these words have a totally different meaning in Lamaism than people realize.

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  266. Referring to “The Dalai Lama and Sogyal Rinpoche: A Roaring Silence?”

    The arguments put forward in the DL’s defense I have come across over and over again from Joanne’s comments and I understand it as the indoctrinated version. Anonymous ends the article with:

    “While the Dalai Lama clearly condemns abuse then, to act in a way that would be to the detriment of innumerable beings and to Buddhism, for this generation and many generations to come, would be folly. To expect him to condemn Sogyals actions when the price could be so great for the future of Buddhism and mankind is a foolish expectation. Haven’t people already suffered enough?”

    This is beyond ludicrous. A glaring obvious error is referring to their religion as Buddhism; it beggars belief the followers continue to give voice to an obvious lie. The argument put across clarifies how ignorant the majority are to believe that Lamaism is Buddhism.

    “Should the whole world really have to pay for the negative actions of one deviant Tibetan?”

    Come off your ‘high chair’; the whole world is not caught up in Lamaism. It is ONE of the world’s religions and it would end a lot of suffering if it were to disappear.

    Again, unbelievable that Anonymous would think there is only “One deviant Tibetan?”

    This article clarifies the delusion that many so called Buddhist live in. Information in his defense repeated over and over that it grows mouldy and ancient like the lying, clearly not Buddhism, texts that fool the masses.

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  267. Excuse me , and I sincerely apologize if you are not a person , simply come on here for other reasons. We have been bombarded with ‘agents’ of the Lamas and insincere persons who were simply trying to get information to use against people who were exposing aspects of the cultic nature of Lamaism. If that is not true, I do owe you an apology. Just the massive ‘damage control’ strategies and tactics that the Lamas and their adherents and promoters engage in, shoud be enough for any Tibetan Lama/buddhist on the fence to question what on earth they were ‘really involved in’.

    As for their “compassion’ I thought this was a clear definition of it in the article “New Opium for Intellectuals:

    Tibetan Buddhist Chic in the West”

    By Andrei Znamenski – The University of Memphis

    http://www.trimondi.de/EN/New_Opium.htm

    “Like any religion, Tibetan Buddhism contains elements that might be misused by inside and outside forces. For example, in its original rendition, the Tibetan Buddhist doctrine of compassion does not mean non-violence.It simply encourages the faithful to work on behalf of people by bringing them to the true faith –”

    What they mean by ‘compassion’ in the Varjayana is that ‘lying , stealing, cheating, deception, sexual activity and even killing is allowed , if it promotes bringing people to the ‘true faith’ i.e. Tibetan Lamaism.

    Also Znamenski’s experience from the Tibetan Lamaists and their openness for engaged dialogue:

    “In response, furious “true believers” attacked, not the substance of my arguments, but me personally. I was called a Chinese Communist agent and an insensitive person. One critic was appalled by the fact that I was writing about Kalachakra without being initiated into this noble tradition; according to this logic, if tomorrow I decide to explore the Catholic Church, I will have to become a Catholic. To another critic, it was simply mind-blowing how a person criticizing Tibetan Buddhism could possibly be teaching in an American college. The most “rational” argument came from a lady who, instead of addressing the raised issue, shot at me with hysterical rants about American imperialism being responsible for genocide against Native Americans and for keeping blacks in slavery for 200 years. I felt almost like being back in the good old Soviet Union, where, in response to Western criticism for violation of human rights, Soviet leaders routinely shot back by using the same rants”

    We have had a full seven months of these kinds of rants, and even Dala Lama monks, come on here and try and derail the topics and comments, so those of us trying to expose the dangers of Lamaism are a bit suspicious now..

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  268. Note reference to holidays. A very American term which can cover a variety of faiths? I noted as we Christians had our celebration on the 25 this machine gun fire of comments opened up. As a Buddhist does the 26/27 have a special significance for you? I noted Chris had a Christmas tree up as a sign of her break with the TB disease.

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  269. Chris, I am not happy being accused of being insincere or someone else “in disguise” when all I was doing was visiting family for the holidays. I don’t always check the computer every day when I am not at home, nor do I have time to answer everyone’s comments or reply to every post on this forum. You owe me an apology.

    Despite that, you and others here have made some good points and I am still thinking it over. I am still on the fence about where I am going to head in my life, as I’ve said before.

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  270. I still think Anonymous was here to draw something else out, rather than engage in a dialogue about this. It really didn’t have the ‘feel’ of a genuine seeker of advice. Something too ‘softly argumentative” particularly defensive about the Dalai Lama criticism. And then to just disappear, particularly as I told him/her he would have to give up being ‘precious and special’ him or herself? That’s the first thing a cult member has to let go off? Maybe that hit a raw nerve. Very suspicious, may be it was Kate in another disguise? Or a Tenpel clone, you know the “Dalai Lama” Gelupa lama that has the website that pretends to be ‘helping people ‘ with their questions and doubts about Lamaism, and is really a ‘limited hang out’ website that is just there to divert and lure people in to confuse them more.
    .

    Let’s see what ” Tenpel” the Dalai Lama troll extraordinaire and massive propagandist for Lamaism, is up to now on his ‘bogus’ site to recruit and confuse for Tibetan lamaism and the Dalai Lama:

    http://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2012/04/28/the-dalai-lama-and-sogyal-rinpoche-a-roaring-silence/

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  271. Back at home, you are simply influenced , unknowingly by the ‘moral relativism’ that is pervasive in our society now, thanks to this HIndustani Tantric influence. Do you know that is what you are saying, “oh who am I to judge anything” , That’s what has happened in India, , with it’s guru Hindustani religion that encourges sex with little girls of 10 years old, (the Ideal age in Tibetan Lamaism for a ‘sexual consort’ was 11 years old) . When we stop discriminating what to accept and reject in a society, and anything goes, it is a sign that that society is doomed.

    But know, lets all call the ‘new ;religious movements’ and watch , just on this site alone? How many abusive cults a 100, 200 with massive followings. But let’s not dare call them a cult, that meets all the characteristics of a cult, Let’s become like India, where thousands of gurus have kept that country in misery and terrible poverty and says, “it’s just their karma’ let’s not interfere! Let’s not judge.

    In a democracy that is really liberal? You have to judge, you have to make decisions about what is ‘good and bad ‘ for the society as a whole. When you stop doing that and let the moral relativity police, who say ‘do not judge’ take over, well let’s not judge murder, or rape, or serial killing or massive perversions of pedophilia cults, they are all the same in the Great One. Right?

    Why not let a ‘cult ‘ religion then , like Tibetan Lamaism, proliferate and infiltrate into our colleges and universities, undermine our culture, are sciences, weaken the western culture from within, and let them be tax free, and become million dollar empires, partners with ‘corportism. let their Lamas and Hindu gurus, sexual exploit young women who come to them believing that these are people they can trust, that are presenting themselves as supra human, So what right? Let them have millions to be able to hire lawyers, and settle the cases, so they can continue to abuse people while calling themselves ‘Churches” who are we to ‘judge”? Lamas should have right to come a bilk the west out of it’s money, create a slave labor force and sexual abuse their western students in the name of their Tantric religion. Why not. after all who are we to judge, that they are only out of the 8th century about 60 years ago? Why judge, why say anything against this? After all all religions are the same, right? Wrong , some are barabaric and historically kept their people in misery and slavery and are creating chaos in our societies and the longer we engage in this poltically correct, moral relativism, it will soon me too late to stop it. , Kiss our democratic values freedom of speech, progress is equal rights for all and justice goodbye, but who are we to ‘judge’. Let’s just ‘sit back’ and remain calm and non-judgemental and at ‘peace.”. Now that we have a critical mass of people who think like this, it won’t be long before we won’t be able to protest anything, and others will make all the decisions for us.

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  272. Those questions are elementary to anyone who already has come through the process of disconnecting from bondage! My questions are: Why let anyone, sitting in a “high chair” or not, use mind controlling techniques to deliberately influence a person to bow down and adore, hand over possessions and spend years pursuing an elusive dangling carrot called ‘enlightenment’ that involves us ‘opening’ up to hypnosis and energy manipulation? Why would anyone want to be influenced by dangerous occult sorcerers? self-proclaimed Lamas who think they are Gods who want to proclaim the earth as theirs? Who, in their right mind, would offer themselves to sexual perversion unless they are unduly influenced? How many tranced out ‘devotees’ ask the Godman if he has a condom?

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  273. It seems we scared Anonymous away already, yet I would not want to make a mistake similar to that made by the lamaist doctrine. It is hard enough to be sure about what is right for myself. If anyone chooses something different, I do not have the right to force my “right” onto that other person. Who knows? Maybe lamaism or buddhism is exactly the right thing for Anonymous, for whatever reasons. I don’t know about Anonymous’ circumstances.

    Maybe the real danger in any kind of group think is, when standardized answers and viewpoints make us unable to recognize some of the most important questions. Questions about our motivations. “Why do we want to sit on a high chair and have a large followership?” or “Why do we reject that so intensely?”. “Why do we think gaining power or control is so important for us?” or “Why do we reject people in such power positions?”. “Why do we prefer a ‘normal’ life?” or “Why do we want to be ‘special’?”.

    And: “Why is it so hard for us to accept, that other people make other choices? Why do we want them to make the same choice as we do? Why do we want them to leave their group and become a member of our group?”

    I think you get the point. I think the most basic problems of mankind lie within mankind itself. Standardized thinking (any kind of thought reform) is too focused on it’s own viewpoint to recognize that sufficiently.

    (I am not saying here, to have a certain belief is narrow minded. The belief of any person is her or his personal choice which should be respected, not converted.)

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  274. Whoopee!!! Happy days!! Returning to a normal balanced life is the only answer. It is crazy that anyone would get away with telling us any different.

    Quinn talked about ‘normal’ life as if it was something to be avoided otherwise there was no chance of reaching our ‘potential’. “Who wants to be normal” was the witch’s mantra in Eccles Street.

    Isn’t it very conniving of cults to concentrate on turning out mind controlled salespeople while fronting a veneer of caring for mental and physical health? It is too easy for me to spot the snake slithering into society having experienced cult manipulation and I think you are right in saying that many more people are waking up to what is happening. It is a battle to be fought and won!!!

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  275. “In fact, it is quite a journey because you will come to understand a lot more about who you really are. Memories tend to come back gradually of the past, people you knew and how they affected your life; this is what I call enlightenment; learning from experience. Breaking away from cult speak, sound bites that come with indoctrinated emotional reactions and get in touch with YOUR body, mind and spirit.
    Yes, laughter is a great healer! Anger and laughter are very powerful tools”.

    So true, Angie, and if one can come out, all the way out , one is now free from most ‘undue influence’ for the rest of one’s life, one becomes independent of even subltle social influences that once bound one to , ‘group approval’ and one doesn’t live one’s life ‘other directed.’anymore, while at the same time being back in the world of ordinary life. I had a Xmas tree and enjoyed Xmas again for the first time in decades, instead of the artificial imaginings that I was part of someone else’s culture and their celebrations of this and that ‘incarnate ‘ deity and dead lama.

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  276. Chris, I understand your comments. Even though our experiences are different in ways, not a lama but an Irish guru, there is a similarity of what happened when I came to my senses and the emotional side effects that followed. Even now, many years later, I am aware of the mental effects it can have. I am prepared to weather the storm, so to speak particularly at this time of the year. The Christmas gathering was something I was very drawn to in the Tony Quinn Centre, not in the least now thank God. I would feel very down the few days before, for no particular reason I could fathom and drawn to ‘top up’ energy (the way they worded hypnosis sessions). My ‘therapist’ charged me for having a conversation, would you believe it? She could not make money talking on the telephone so she would have me visit her. She always found time to suggest relaxation which I now understand as being hypnosis. Truthfully, it is far better to spend time with family members and I feel natural love, clarity of thought and compassion when needed and a far healthier frame of mind. When I look back now I fully accept that I was one of Quinn’s ‘foolies’, as he called us.

    Anonymous, you felt the effects and know how subtle and seductive they are. If you want to live autonomously I would strongly advise you to keep your distance and not to let them know that you question what is going on in the indoctrinated mind-set and sexual practices of Lamaism. First of all, they will not be honest with you and second, it draws attention. I made the mistake of being sufficiently confrontational that people in the Educo cult knew I was questioning what they were doing. It would have been far better had I walked away, however, I was too angry at the time and thought I actually had a choice! They do not ask permission to take over your mind and you will not be free until you free yourself of their influence. In fact, it is quite a journey because you will come to understand a lot more about who you really are. Memories tend to come back gradually of the past, people you knew and how they affected your life; this is what I call enlightenment; learning from experience. Breaking away from cult speak, sound bites that come with indoctrinated emotional reactions and get in touch with YOUR body, mind and spirit.

    Yes, laughter is a great healer! Anger and laughter are very powerful tools.

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  277. . All these newly minted ‘rinpoches’ come to the west to make their fortunes from India and Nepal, , tWhat are passing for ‘rinpoches’ now, in the manfacturing “rinpoches” sector of Consumer Lamaism and its marketing scams? ,is laughable. And a good laugh over it is your reward at the end, Laughter is far more ‘enlightening’ than any blessings from these frauds and scammers , believe me.

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  278. And how many ‘precious ones” can there be? When there are thousands of ‘precious ones’ these Rinpoches, it simply isn’t that precious anymore , Anonymous, and there are thousands of them now, all with their own little circle of ‘slave devotees’ through out the world speaking in the same ‘thought stopping cliche’ lama talk that you speak in, it means you are not ‘special ‘ anymore either, by being in their special presence, THAT is what you will have to give up, ‘being ‘special ‘ yourself. That is the hardest things for Lama cult members, or any cult members in fact to give up, being ‘oh so special’ to be in this exclusive club of the Lama’s presence. If you can let go of that, you can let go altogether.

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  279. Dear Anonymous:

    Under Loading the language:

    “heartfelt”
    “heart connection’ more than a mind connection” , a ‘jewel’ that I am walking away from,

    Your posts, are filled with ‘loading the language’ thought control, these are not your thoughts these are not your labels, these are the ‘labels’ that they have planted in your mind. These are ‘thought stopping cliches” that everyone inside the Lama circles engage in. I can tell , just by how you write and the words and phrases you use, that you have been in these lama groups for a considerable time. These ‘cliches’ are in your stream of thoughts, and they have been reinforced over and over again, just by repeating them , as they enter your language, to make you believe that you are in the most ‘precious’ situation , Right? . Remember , over and over, you have been told ‘how ‘fortunate’ you were to find these Lamas, ‘how ‘special’ and ‘good’ your karma was from a ‘past life” that this is a ‘jewel’ in a heap of garbage that you have found.

    Don’t you see this is all to bind you tightly to them, so just the thought of walking away becomes impossible?. How could you live with the ‘mistake’ that you would make , if it is this ‘precious’ and such a rare good fortune that you have discovered being with them? In their presence. Just use your good sense again, “Rinpoche’ means ‘precious one”. Would any sane individual allow that moniker to be used about them, unless they themselves were delusional?

    Read the definition of Lifton’s again:

    :”The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members’ thought processes to conform to the group’s way of thinking.

    “Thought termininating cliches”,

    All people that are in these lama sanghas start talking the way you talk. I know this is hard to accept, but you are not speaking as an indivudual any more. You speak like everyone inside these lama cults start speaking, so that all creativity and individual thought processing is lost. They control us by implanting this cliche thinking in our mental streams to make us ‘happy and oh so grateful ‘slaves’ to them for life.

    The only antidote to this is the start using your own natural intelligence and western education again and start ‘researching’ material that will counteract this language ‘conditioning’. , will end the hold they have on you by getting the facts about who they are , not the ‘fairy tales’ about how ‘precious’ they are , and how ‘lucky you are’ to be their slave. Believe me, when you read how they treated their own people in reality in Tibet, you will not see them as so ‘precious’ anymore. You will run away from them , as every western person with an ounce of sanity should be doing. Why on earth would anyone embrace these lamas”, who ‘enslaved’ their own people and kept them in misery and poverty for over a thousand years? That’s what I think now, after deprogramming myself from their snare. And loading the language ? Their whole teachings are about loading the language to make people ‘adore them” Thier teachings are about “lamaism” and them, them them, adoring them, seeing them as the most precious thing in you life. Remember how they taught us that it is more important to meet up with a Lama in this life than the Buddha’s teachings? because a Lama is a connection in this life? and the Buddha is dead. so a Lama is more important to you than the Buddha himself because you couldn’t meet with him. This is NOT Buddhism, this is Lamaism.and a complete and utter distortion of the Buddha’s teachings. You talk in the same thought stopping cliche’s that we all talked in when in their Lama clutches.

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  280. Moved to commenting policy:

    i ask the question again ……

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  281. Just want to add: “Heartfelt” is another piece of the trap’s puzzle. In general we tend to think “heartfelt” has the meaning of a positive affection. But here it really just means, we have some kind of an energetic sensation in the heart region of our body.

    So what exactly is the quality of that “energy”? Can it be this “energy” is not positive? Can it be this “energy” and its intensity shows some characteristics we usually would expect from more violent emotions?

    All that glitters is not gold.

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  282. Anonymous

    You say “Part of me actually wants to believe how bad it is because then I can walk away without feeling guilty, like I am throwing away a jewel.”

    You want to walk away; however, you are in fear of losing yourself? They did not give you the ‘jewel’; that was already there. Your energy is what they are “mining” as Quinn puts it. He referred to it as the ‘diamond’. They lock onto you and take like a leech. The rest is all illusion; fairytale upon fairytale to capture the imagination; a foundation of lies, fabrications of lineage etc., all for their benefit. They lock people’s minds into the idea that they are essential to bring about the perfect world; living a fantasy dream that, as Chris says, loses its hold once you make the decision.

    I watched a programme on TV where the presenter travelled to the east, the Himalayas and India. He was desperate to find a connection between the eastern religions and Jesus. He was totally taken in by what appeared to be magical; meditative practices that hypnotised him into thinking he was in a land where no evil existed. Much to his disappointment he found no-one who could tell stories about Jesus, in fact, the only concrete item he came across was a picture of a white man who was known as Jesus to the monks in the monastery; a picture added to the collection of gurus/lamas that were well known in that part of the world. It was, more than likely, given to them by a Christian traveler. Even resident monks could not tell him anything about Jesus’s teachings. A fabricated story was told about information being locked into a room that only the high lama could see. This does not stop many who have straddled the eastern religious practices and want to connect it to Christianity and this will only bring about distortion and all based on hearsay and many would think heresy.

    “there are often agendas on both sides”

    I gain nothing from being on this site accept to warn people. Would you let them fall into a pit that is difficult to get out of?

    “I am one of those people who are under the influence of the group without ever really being a part of it. I don’t know their secrets.”

    Do you need to? Your instinct tells you to walk away from them. Take more heed of that than anything else. Why don’t you listen to yourself instead of fearing that you will lose something? If you really believe that you are the ‘jewel’ why would you need a lama/guru?

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  283. I meant Lama Tharchin. Sorry for the typo.

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  284. Actually, with my teacher, it felt as though it was coming BOTH from him AND from me. It was like a mutual spiritual connection, which is the reason it felt more comfortable for me to accept him as a guru, rather than a teacher where a “seed” was planted. That didn’t feel natural to me and I didn’t like it when they did that. I want to add that I met a lot of lamas whose energy wasn’t at all intrusive and they didn’t try to plant any seed at all. I realize that this doesn’t mean they don’t try with other people. I am just saying that I didn’t always feel a “seed” being planted around lamas. The gelug lams seem (by and large) to be much less intrusive (as a rule) than the Nyingmas, Karma Kagyus, or Sakyas, on a psychic level. Although I was around Lama Tarchin and he didn’t seem (energetically) intrusive at all.

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  285. BackAtHome, I think that with some lamas, they planted the seed there and it was coming from them, not from me. That’s what made it especially disturbing and made me want to fight it off. With my own teacher, it seemed as though it was coming from me, due to some kind of past connection with him. it’s true that I cannot rely on “feelings” alone and perhaps it isn’t all coming from me. But I think I noticed a difference about how I felt about my own teacher, as opposed to the way I felt around other teachers who tried to plant the “seed” in my mind. It felt different. You made some valid points and you give some good advice. I will certainly think over what you said.

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  286. I didn’t say he was in my head, I said I still felt a spiritual connection with the teacher I took empowerments with. It feels more like a heart connection than a head connection.

    For a while I felt like I was very much out of it and it seemed I had left it behind. However, lately I feel I am slipping back into it again. I am not saying the lamas are doing anything at this point, especially since I haven’t been around any lamas lately at all, or even any sangha members from those groups.

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  287. I am sorry I can’t find the time to read all of the comments.

    Anonymous, if you are interested in looking through more information, I can send a list of references. But it is a lot of reading. Some very disturbing if not harmful.

    You wrote ‘… If he isn’t what he seems, then that means I totally can’t trust my own judgement anymore. …’. Exactly that is the carefully planned insidious trap to weaken you mentally. This is were some unpleasant questions begin.

    If someone merged his mind with yours then how can you be sure about what is coming from yourself and what is coming from the “implant”? If you think you made a deal with your lama, is that what you yourself think or did the implant cause that thought? The “deep heartfelt connection” you remember, was that your own feeling or was that feeling somehow invoked in you and made to look as if it was your own?

    Trying to find an answer to such questions is only fueling the connection, it does not get you out of that (if that’s what you want).

    I needed to remember that this all is not what I wanted originally, that it is not what made me “open minded” enough for being tricked on this “path” and this absurd battlefield. After that, I realized I do not need answers to such questions and probably there are no answers. Probably this is a problem that can not be solved. Trying to solve it only keeps one caught in the problem. All that is needed is to abandon the idea, that which caused the problem could benefit in any way.

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  288. And your connection to your teacher? You are making it up in your own head” The ‘seed ‘ was planted , that’s all, and you do all the cultivating and nurturing of this ‘idea’ of his ‘being in your head” . Once you stop ‘reinforcing and nurturing it” , like your posts are filled with how ‘powerful they are’ no, they are only powerful because we let them be this powerful ‘in our heads” it will shock you how it all falls away, It is , as they say ‘just patches of cloth’ on your western conditioning, which , believe me is still there, and I am so grateful for it, so greatful that I was not born in Tibet or India, or any of these cultures that have had a millenium of these gurus and their charlatanism and misogyny. .

    What shocked me was that I could seemingly be so “in it” one year, , and yet when I totally disconnected , once and for all? All the “mumbo jumbo”, the ‘hell realm scares’ the purposely planted ‘nightmares ‘ and ‘fears they planted with their teachings’ about leaving them? just fell away. They had no hold anymore, when I let it go. It is up to you, Always it is up to you, no one can hypnotize you , unless you still want to be hypnotised and you are self-hypnotising yourself at this stage.

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  289. Well, that is what I meant by it being harder to be on the ‘fringe’, it doesn’t mean they haven’t ‘programmed’ you just as powerfully, in fact, because you stay away on the fringe , you don’t get to see the corruption so completely on the inside, I think there is a middle circle, of not too close in and not too far away, that allowed me to see through it finally. I also had 32 years of a normal, well-educationed lifetime before I got ‘seduced’ I wasn’t of the first wave of western Lamaists, whom many had been Hindu first , remember. I was on my second master’s degree when it hooked me, and I had had a whole professional life beforehand. I was in the middle of a difficult marriage and later divorce, and that is how they get many people, in life transitions, when you are vulnerable. The first very wave of Lamaists were drugged out hippies, that was Trungpa’s first wave, and they were hedonistic and very ‘f….ked up. and of course the radical avante guard, I believe he personally went after them to ‘quell their radicalism’ and was supported by our goverment to do so. His group was almost destroyed in 1990 because of his Regents sexually and homsexually Aides infecting behavior of his students, killing two of them. But instead of it being destroyed as the cult it had become, this government let the Lama Hierarchy come and rescued it , with the help of appointing his learning disabled son, to take it over, and ‘rehabiliate it’ Instead he made it a Shinto/Confusionistic New Age Hindu Combo Cult, with a few , really dumb old Trungpa students who stayed, Maybe about 2 dozen and another 30 or so ‘straddle between Tsoknyi r, and Shambhala, it is pathetic to watch them now, and , only because their livelihood was tied into Shambhala, and a very lucrative New Age Buddhist phenomenon that the younger generation of Dharma brats, who are really ‘children of a cult’ generation, that are often the most dysfunctional, that his ‘disabled son’ has created. Talk about a screwed up and dumbed down generation.. Only Boulder could tolerate such nonsense, young Yoga Eco fascists, promoting an Imperial Chinese Court of Lamaism, of their beloved Sakyong whom they worship as a King and an Incarnate Elightened being, Two HH’s, ‘His Highness” and His Holiness” They are a joke even to the other Lamas, who in personal communications, can’t believe that Shambhala students act like slaves to someone they know is a charlatan. I mean they do have their reasons for seeing us as really stupid as westerners. There are no groups as dumb and naive and purposely and willfully stupid over four decades now, as old Trungpa students. so if you think I am defending his group , you are dead wrong.

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  290. Have you ever tried speaking to a person under the influence of alcohol? It is very similar with someone under cult influence. You seem having had an answer to a question to ask it again and again. We will very much take into account what you tell us about a disabilty. You are very clear regardless.

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  291. Yet at the same time, I am in it very deep on a more spiritual level. I am very connected to my teacher (for better or worse) and I have had all sorts of stuff happen with my energy field. I can’t simply wipe that all away. My body has changed because of this and I am not the same as before. I am willing to have an open mind, but it is hard to sort out.

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  292. dialogueireland, on December 25, 2013 at 1:46 pm said:

    “You do not take time to reflect. Your problem is not information but influence. We will follow your comments with interest.” What does that mean? You’re following my comments with “interest”? I have a mental disability, so perhaps I sometimes sound a bit disjointed. Please have some patience with me.

    Okay, I understand better what you were trying to say, Chris, regarding Trungpa. Please understand folks (and I am addressing this to everyone concerned) that I am still in the stage of trying to sort it all out. I have lately been slipping back into their influence and part of me wants to break free. I think I could be FULLY free and not feel any guilt if I could just get confirmation that the situation really is as bad and corrupt as it seems. Part of me actually wants to believe how bad it is because then I can walk away without feeling guilty, like I am throwing away a jewel. Yet another part of me wants to stay in TB and keep the connection to my teacher, something I always valued. It is confusing to hear all these conflicting views, pro and con, on both side and I know there are often agendas on both sides. I feel like I am wading in a big sea of too much information and since I am NOT on the inside of the group, I can only piece together what I get from the outside. I have not had the advantage of being able to witness the inner circle corruption and just be able to throw up my hands and walk away. Because I do NOT have an insider’s view (I am one of those people who orbit around and never make it into the inside) it is very confusing for me to put it all together. Please try to understand my perspective. It is not the same as someone who has been in the inner orbit of a group, who has seen it from the inside. I am one of those people who are under the influence of the group without ever really being a part of it. I don’t know their secrets. I only know what I see from the outside and my own, very limited experience.

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  293. Yes Angie , torn between warning other people about them, and shutting the door and locking it tight, and living the life totally free of them is the challenge.

    I hate even discussing them, or contemplating anything about them, but I feel torn to warn people about them. It is like having to go to the ‘hell realms” to try and rescue people. . I see them as so evil and destructive now. Like a swarm or a miasma, come to the west in their robes, only to destroy it, there is nothing left that is ‘positive’ about them, nothing.

    I hate even thinking about them. That is the truth. When I see them now, pictures of them, they look like a swarm of locusts.

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  294. I meant to say ‘comparative philosophy’ not literature that he studied. I also think that he Oxford scholarship was proably funded by the CIA like the Dalai was supported by the CIA for decades and still is through their front, the National Endowment for Democracy. Trungpa also was obviously trying to colonize the west, and bring a Buddhocracy to the west, he went after the most avante guard thinkers, in our culture, and the most brilliant and well educated in the west, he knew if he could reach them, he could reach the rest of us. He was quite machiavellian himself. He didn’t trust psychology or psychologists, however, and kept it separated , from being joined with the dharma, just as Namkai Norbu never trusted the joining of psychology with the Dharma. This was very intuitive, becaue It has been a disasterous turn for both buddhism, and for psychology , weakinging both of the fields. Terrible.

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  295. “The hardest part is that it seems like my teacher’s energy was the most beautiful, loving, caring energy”

    At the beginning I too felt the most beautiful energy. Having been around them for a number of years I finally realised that what I felt initially actually came from me and one other in the group who believed in angelic forces. Like the “nice” people you met who left I did not grasp that I did not belong there because the woman who led the group, Aideen Cowman, on a second visit, set me up to think it was her that bestowed energy. That occasion was the first time I had experienced someone else deliberately sending it and yes, I felt the change immediately. It had the effect of giving me some sense of purpose, like there was some kind of adventure ahead of me although I had no idea what that was. This is the beginning of the grooming for a Tony Quinn seminar and now I know that the purpose was ‘to make this world a better place’ aligning and obedience, agreeing with anything he wanted; service to the sorcerer.

    As I had no intentions, nor did I at any stage agree to this, I was under the illusion that what they did would not harm me. Cowman played the hot and cold game and this led to me leaving for long periods of time and yet I felt drawn back into the group and not understanding why. I did not realise they used occult practices and hypnosis to bind people to the group. It was the bullying tactics, greed for money, thievery and manipulation of energy, interference with family relationships and career choices, hypnotic suggestions as to how I should live my life in the service of a sorcerer that finally brought me to my senses.

    Any time I walked away from bad situations in the past the negative feelings dissipated, however, the experience with the Educo cult was different and I had to fight psychologically and spiritually to make the final break with them. This alone tells me that there are forces at work that I did not understand. It caused terrible stress when others, particularly in the psychotherapy field, had no idea what I was talking about. I thank God for dialogue and courageous people who comment on this site. They confirmed my inner struggle, restoring a very real sense of what I wanted to achieve. If understanding the cult practices/knowledge of the occult is part of finally understanding what happened to me I DO NOT WANT to pursue them as it would have a detrimental effect on my life. That door should not only be closed, but locked tight and people caught up in the sticky web of THEIR illusion, set free to live lives intended for them.

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  296. You are missing the point. I was using analogy. If you need more information read the threads we have thousands of comments. As a non Buddhist observer it strikes me you pattern of commenting is not natural. You ask a a question but no sooner is it answered that you ask another. You do not take time to reflect. Your problem is not information but influence. We will follow your comments with interest.

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  297. You may not be a spy, but you are not ready to give it up, I don’t know why you think I am defending any of them, including Trungpa, whom I just said about was a Lama tyrant and the first to have a cult around him. In fact, I believe it is the Trungpa cult of Lama devotees, inside all these other sanghas, that most enabled the recreation of stone cold cult attitudes in the next sanghas they joined. . There are no devotees as stuck as old Trungpa students. and you probably heard his later teachings when he was almost in a coma from his alcoholism, it was his early teachings, pre 80’s that demonstrated his brillianc. For one think he studied at Oxford, comparative literature, loved western culture , incorporated Zen into his sangha, he was a ver quick leaner of other cultures, and his biography reveals that he didn’t like the Lama system, never trusted it, and never had Tibetans lamas in his adminstration , only westerners. This didn’t mean he didn’t have a cult like following , he couldn’t , like all of them, extricate himself from his Lamaist culture, but he tried, I believe that when the Lamas from Tibet, the 16th and the rest , gave their imprimatur to his activities in the west, that was a mixed blessing, and his drinking really increased then, by the end he knew , in my opinion, that he had recreated the monster that he had tried to escape from. He couldn’t and he drank himself into a stupor. These other lamas, who give him credit now, hated him for reveal the sexual abuses (he never hid it and was blatant about it being about having constant sexual consorts, that was very very threatening to the rest of Lamaism, who didn’t want the west to see this when they were frist trying to ‘colonize us”. . But regardless, as Mike says, you have to leave, just leave, if you can’t then you can’t are you will continue to sef-reinforce , in your own head, their influence. Since most students have no personal contact with lamas, except the very wealthy benefactors, then you are , like the rest, ‘self-hynotising yourself’ again and agian by their programming, when you realize that it is only in your own head, which you seem to indicate that you do, they you will shake it out, keep it out, use ‘stop think methods” to exorcise them . You can do it.

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  298. Oh yeah, AA itself is often suspected to be a cult in of itself with its own religious agenda. They would be *really* helpful – NOT!

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  299. It is not more information about alchohol = Lamaism you need, but to stop drinking period. You need to go to AA. You are already getting on line 12 step advice here from friends.

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  300. Excellent example Backat Home

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  301. Also, I have been doing my own research. I have been searching and searching and searching and the more I search, the more confused I get. Each side is so biased, both pro and con and I feel I can’t trust either side to be truthful and objective. the con side wants to tear down TB and there is usually some hidden agenda behind that. the other side wants to whitewash and cover up anything shady that might be going on. I am fed up with trying to find out the truth as I feel everyone has some sort of hidden agenda. And I can’t fully leave unless I have more information. I don’t even know where to look. I am not ready to leave yet, so you may be sensing that, but I am not some sort of spy.

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  302. I am not a plant at all. How could I be? I am not an insider. I don’t know anything about what the insiders are doing. This is why I wanted to talk to people who know something – because insiders won’t tell me anything truthful and I don’t trust them to tell me the truth.

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  303. I tried to watch Trungpa on YouTube and I simply couldn’t get through it. He looked and sounded like he was intoxicated and he could hardly speak. I am not saying that some of his words might not have been brilliant, but it’s hard to get past the superficial sometimes when it is very distracting. I couldn’t understand him at all , so I had to give up. A long time ago, I tried to get through one of his books and I had to quit half way through. But that’s just me. I realize that others may find his work inspiring and perhaps I would too if I delved into it more. At this point, I don’t want to delve into any lama teachings, as I simply want to get at the truth about what is going on inside TB in general. But after hearing about some of his (Trungpa’s) behavior, I am not too keen on exploring Trungpa’s teachings or getting hooked into it any more than I am already. Anyone who would tell his AIDS-infected student that doing “tantra” with partners would be *okay* as long as he does his “purification practices” is someone I simply can’t put my faith in. The other stuff I heard about Trungpa is greatly disturbing to me as well. of course, it’s not just Trungpa I am disturbed about. I am disturbed by a LOT of what I’ve been hearing about ALL the lamas in TB and that is why I am hear.

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  304. No I will not explain further, If you really wanted to leave, you would be doing your own research , I don’t believe you will leave, I think you are another plant to see what I know. You can’t imagine what I know . or the decades of crap that I have seen in these lama groups. You can’t even imagine, I have given you the ‘tip of the iceberg’ that’s all.

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  305. Yes, I knew that Trungpa was the pioneer who was responsible for bringing a lot of TB to the West, etc. He is very much respected for that among the TB community, or so I thought. But would you say that his behavior was questionable and his group was culty?

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  306. As for your thinking the Dalai Lama is brilliant? Well, did you ever hear Trungpa teach? No wonder you are having trouble leaving, if you have been fooled by the Dalai Lama. I notice the Dalai Lama is the main icon in people’s heads these days, even non-Tibetan Lamaists can’t let go of the Dalai Lama programming. Sounds like you better start with Maxime Viva’s book, “Behind the Smile” The Hidden face of the Dalai Lama.

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  307. So, there is a lot of information coming very fast and it’s hard for me to swallow this all at once…Tsoknyi is helping to cover up Sogyal’s abuse? How is he doing this – specifically? I am still not clear how the lamas are all working together to cover up and how it is supposed to work? Can you explain further?

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  308. My affiliations with Trungpa, so what ! Half the “long in the tooth” students of ALL these other Lama groups are old Trungpa students, don’t you know that? , they were so disillusioned by his h.s. drop out son, with no training, that 80% (probably all by now) left Shambhala since 1987 and being the cult addicts to lamaism we all were, hooked up with all these other lamas. They came after us, after he died. Don’t you know that? Trungpa students were their ‘seed sangha’ they couldn’t have started without us.

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  309. As for the Karmapa, I have no idea what to think about the rumors regarding his age or being a Chinese spy, etc. I did read about Tai Situ a while back and how India restricted him becuase they thought he was a spy, etc. (Actually, I do read other news sources, not just American.) But again, I did not know what to think about that. It’s all just rumor, gossip and bickering back and forth between the sects – and politics between nations, which in of itself is a big turn-off for me. I don’t understand the squabbling between the two Karmapa sects either. Why can’t there be two Karmapas – a body emanation and a speech emanation, etc? There could even be three Karmapas, a body, speech AND mind emanation. Why not? Why all the stupid bickering between the sects? I realize that Tibetan sects have always bickered, but this is supposed to be the 20th Century. Arrrgh!

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  310. Oh no,that is Tsoknyis ‘rap’ he plays it real cool and no big deal, Mr. Dzogchen who has incorporated Hare Krishna chanting in his retreats to hook the Hindu bliss types (unheard of in the past!) until he hooks you then he reveals himself to be one of the most old fashioned lamas, having you read about the hell realms for weeks, doing another ngondro, and trying to get you to prostrate to him at all times, ( everyone prostrates of course when he enters and leaves the room) but then , once he has his students hooked, he does the real hot, and then cold routine, and has the dumbest sanghas, mostly psychologists that he has hooked out of Spirit Rock.where I believe he purposely went to fool and recruit psychologists, because he is Sogyals main protecter and enabler of Sogyal’s abuses, His sangha is totally tied into Rigpa, and the nun thing is a ruse and a fooler to protect the lamas from knowing about the sexual abuses and misogyny in Lamaland. Spirit Rock was started by psychologists to address the Lama abuse , sadly and ironically, and partially because of Sogyal’s egregious behavior and the law suit in the 90’s against him. , so that was a strategy to go after them , infiltrate at Spirit Rock, and it worked, now Tsoknyi is one of their ‘teachers” and he and Sharon Salzberg , Joseph Goldstein and Dan Goleman, now Tibetan Lamaists and part of the Mind Life Insititute, cult devotees extraordinaire, all students of Tsoknyi r and Sogyal r, make sure that psychologists never even question or ask anymore about Sogyal ‘s abuses. This , to me, is one of the most egregious examples of their machiavellian behaviors. I would say that that was the straw that broke the camels back for me. Once I knew about the cartel of protection these Lamas were actively promoting around Sogyals abuses, and that they had gotten the whole psychology profession to ‘look away” Unbelievable. It is truly unbelievable. He is very cute and clever , our lttle ewoke Mr. Tsoknyi r, and a very cold strategist, totally tied into Sogyal, his ‘mentor’ (they tell the same put down jokes about westerners at their retreats) and is only here for our money. He wasn’t cute anymore or appealing once I saw through this game he was playing , duping the west ‘bigtime”. . .

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  311. You seem to somehow respect Trungpa Rinpoche, even though he is one of the very MOST controversial lamas EVER. This seems odd to me, coming from someone who is so set against lamas and all the represent. Also, nothing you said about the Dalai Lama reflects ANY personal experience with him, either from you or people you have known, just rumors and hearsay and sectarian prejudices from Kagyus and others. It seems that despite the fact you have left Lamaland, you are still influenced by their views and opinions, which is understandable, since you were in that environment for a long time. But why compare the Dalai Lama’s teachings to Trungpa’s teachings and judge him based on that? The Dalai Lama’s public talks are meant for general audiences and they are generally very simple and they are designed for people who are not even necessarily Buddhist. But if you have ever attended teachings where he talks about emptiness and other scholarly subjects, they are very deep and involved. I wouldn’t call them dumbed down.

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  312. Trungpa Rinpoche, whom I first studied with, explictly had everyone steer totally clear of the Dalai Lama, and that was true of all the Kagyus, there was a Gelupa center 2 miles from the center in VT where I lived, and we were forbidden to go there. The Kagyus and the Gelupas were bitter enemies, because the Dalai Lamas have always tried to control and or wipe out the other sects with sometimes violent means, (now they have succeeded controlling all of them, and they are now a Lama cartel under the Dalai Lama, since the Tibetan groups were in exile this was accomplished more easily and this Dalai Lama has succeeded where others failed) The rumors were that the Dalai Lama had tried to have Dudjom Rinpoche killed, because he was so popular when his group came to India, and their are Nyingma groups I studied with who still steer very clear of the Dalai Lama and now don’t trust the Kagyus for caving in, these are mostly Bhutanese , who , by the way, don’t let the Dalai Lama into their coutry because of all the Gelupa invasions, most westerners don’t know that, since they don’t know anything about the real history of Tibet and Bhutan and are so dumbed down in their sanghas, that they aren’t even curious about who these Tibetans really are!!! Even though they have given over their lives to them! Astounding when you think about it. (I believe this assasinations attempts did happen after reading the real history of Tibet, no wonder Tsoknyi r, Mr. Western Lama didn’t want us reading history) and these Lamas, I am sure someone had Akong Rinpoche killed, and that has been hushed up if you remember the first news was that Akong was ‘assasinated” and then that was taken retracted in the news ) the Dalai Lama did have Dudjom, him jailed for a time accusing him of being a Communist of course,) and the Kagyus from Tibet never trusted the Dalai Lama, because of years of intersect fighting. That is what is so ridicuous about the Dalai Lama recognizing this 17th Karmapa, it is unheard of in the Kagyu Lineage and it was done only for poltiical reasons. I believe that this Karmapa is still working with China, because Tai Situ , who recognized him’ , has been in China since the 80’s rebuilding his monasteries there. Something western devotees, with their Free Tibet bumber stickers , of course have no clue that this has been true, and , that these Lamas always hedge their bets, India considers Tai Situ a Chinese spy, and forbids him travel in their country, (you really need to read more than U.S. news, which is totally controlled now, to understand the machinations that go on in Lamaland) and he very well could be , but for me, I never trusted this incarnation of the Karmapa, I saw a pirated film of his escape in 2001, by a French film maker that has mysterious disappeared, and it was clearly a staged, ‘escape’ by helicopter and SUV, the Chinese let him escape, it showed me how poltically expedient these Lamas are now, all falling in place under the Dalai Lama’s hegemony, this was unheard of!!!! I So the Kagyus, that I first studied with always saw the Dalai Lama as the most poltical conniving Lama, and not to be trusted, and when I hear the Dalai Lama’s teachings, after CTR ‘s brilliance, he was brilliant, despite being a Lama tyrant, the Dalai Lama sounds so sophomoric and ridiculous. That people can even listen to the pablum he talks , shows that the Lamas are now attracting the dumbest of the westerners, the very dumbest and naive, programmed by a controlled media to hear what they want to here. The Dalai Lama sounds like “Chance’ Peter Sellers character in the movie “Being There” it makes as much sense and is all about what people project onto him and want to here. . .

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  313. Also, he did not give out woo-woo energy, at least as far as I was concerned, but my acquaintance seemed pretty taken in by him.

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  314. You’re talking about Tsoknyi Rinpoche, right? I saw him in person one time when he came through my town to give a lecture on a documentary about the Nanchen Nuns. An acquaintance of mine was starry-eyed and wanted to ask if he could be her teacher, even though she didn’t even know him personally. I wasn’t that interested, although he seemed to be a nice person, from what I could tell, although I don’t know him personally either. I was impressed with the nuns especially. Of course, I realize that in a documentary like that, they would never mention whether and of the women were abused, unhappy, imprisoned, or any other sordid stuff going on. So I can’t speak to that. All I know is my own, very limited experience.

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  315. So first, I read Stephen Batchelor, and then I read everything I could about the ‘real Tibet’ books that couldn’t be published by the closed publishing houses of the Lamas, that’s their other big money makers, having a monopoly on everything and controlling everything that is published, through Snow Lion, etc. Some of these Lamas have their own publishing companies like Tulku Urgen’s group.

    I instead started reading Melwyn Goldstein’s books on Tibet, and then Friendly Feudalism, by Michael Parenti. I knew when this ‘westernized lama’ told us all ‘he didn’t believe in history’ that I better start reading the history of Tibet and not the fairy tales that the lamas had been spoon feeding us, and then I read all the anti-cult books I could about the criteria of a cult, by Singer and Janet Lalich, and Steve Hansen, sometimes you have go at things ‘indirectly’, Start reading and researching , and of course Steven Batchelor. You have to start using your critical intelligence and western reasoning again, it has been laying dormant for years now, but it is still there and you need it. They tried to wipe it out, these lamas, but they underestimate how deep our western education was, they can’t even imagine what we know, or how intelligent and capable we are, they have never been curious about us, never have you noticed? They only learn about the west to ‘bilk us out of our money”. they can’t imagine our education, it is beyond their comprehension. You have to take back you self-esteem as a westerner which they try and wipe out , and make us feel very bad about ourselves. That is another strategy they uses. They all tell the same insulting jokes about us, at the start of their retreats. That is a ‘strategy’ of theirs, it is not spontaneous or accidental. It puffs them up from the start, when they are, in fact, most of them, ignorant peasants with a superstitious training in medieval philoposophy, astrology and casting spells. You have to be willing to give up the collosal fantasies that we have projected onto them, to see who they really are, a group of refugees that is 60 years have not assimilated much, and are still living in the 8th century, they are the most stuck group of foreigners the world has ever seen. By now, another group would have western Phds and appreciate being in the west, instead of being just here to bilk us out of our money. That is all they have ever done, bilk groups out of their money, labor , that is all they know how to do. That is what they did to their own people. for a 1000 years, when you see that clearly it will be easy to leave and cast them away.

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  316. Sometimes the hardest is being on the fringe, like you are , but it is your good sense that is keeping you distant, so it will be easier to break away, I was deep deep in, so it was that much harder and took a long time. When I look back, I really was breaking away since 1999, from the first group, and then jumped into another but that group was even more obviously insane, and I was pretty disillusioned after five years of that situation, but it took a few years to completely break away, because he had attracted about 1/2 the ‘sangha’ of the old group I was with so again, it is the social group that binds you at the end, and that has to be cut completely. . (the people this lama had close in around him were rich idiots and only rich idiots , even rich idiots from the previous sangha were his next’ fundraisers and administrators” and that was one of the final straws, as it became obvious, despite his charming need for adoration and his pretense that he was a westernized lama that he was obviously a greedy gollum only here for our money and still couldn’t speak English after 20 years and having U.S. citizenship to have his house, and his ‘ money circuit ‘ for collecting funds from stupid ,Americans and to eat sushi, and be adored by psychologists. Now he is building a giant monastery in Taiwan where there are more millionaires, and his western students have no idea that their monies have helped partially build that monastery! He is one of the advertised ‘feminist’ lamas now, helping nuns of course, has his “Blessings” film out, they all jumped on the nun bandwagon after neglecting nuns for a 1000 years, because they knew rich old lady western benefactors love that! Feminists? Are you kidding me. Why is it that westerners can believe this when they only and always have obsequious, slavish monks all around them everywhere they go? They are so obviously a patriarchal closed system. They make their western students blind in some way, they cast a spell, I think they are mostly good at casting spells. This lama, would literally cast a ‘net of protection’ over his retreats and the psychologists would actually believe that this was true! I think psychologists must be trained and soaked in New Age crap training now, they really must be so dumbed down, but hey, they can offer ‘mindfulness training’ they don’t need clinical training anymore! That is the first group of professionals that these lamas have totally destroyed. Now its off to destroy science with their ‘pseudo Science mind-life institute baloney. This is the left wing Scientism and the right wing, literally funded by the Dominionist Christians is the Institute for Noetic Sciences. Same thing, superstious mumbo jumbo to dumb the west down. Sometimes the work together, as they did in Crestone Colorado, their New Age Spirtual Alliance center.

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  317. So Chris, you were studying with important Nyingma and Kagyu lams for quite a long time. I was wondering if you ever met the Dalai Lama, or did he ever come through your center? If so, what was your PERSONAL impression of him? What did other people say/think/feel?

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  318. The hardest part is that it seems like my teacher’s energy was the most beautiful, loving, caring energy (even if his behavior didn’t always match) and I feel that such a deep heartfelt connection with him was real. To doubt that what I felt from him was real would be to say that I can’t trust my own sense of a kind aura. If he isn’t what he seems, then that means I totally can’t trust my own judgement anymore.

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  319. You should read Stephen Batchelor’s book, “Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist” That really helped me. Here was someone who was close in to the Dalai Lama, and his personal tutor, and then questioned the whole Tibetan Lamaist system.He could read Sanskrit and the original teachings of the Buddha in Pali as well (these lamas don’t know what the Buddha taught they only learn what their own lineage masters teach, they are worshipping an Indian Sadhu Padmasambhava, have you noticed how there are few actually thankas of the Buddha, but a whole patheon of demons and goddesses from the Hindu lineages? You are actually practicing a Hindu tantric religion with them NOT buddhism.. That becomes very clear after reading Stephen Batchelor. He is a good first step in helping to breakaway, because their first and foremost ‘deception’ is to make you believe that they are Buddhist, they are not, Because he lays out material from the real Sakyanmuni’s teachings, Batchelor is a good step in helping you first understand that these Lamas are not teaching Buddhism, and that you are more of a buddhist when you get away from them, more following the buddhas teachings when you break away, that it really helps.create a ‘protective situation, to help you through. It is hard to give up , all at once, everything that has been part of your adult reference points, socially, spiritually , you can’t just drop it all at once. But you can drop a whole load of bullshit at once, when you realize how they have purposely and systematically seduced and held you to them for one reason, TO SERVE THEM on their thrones. They don’t care about you. They only care, ironically, about themselves and their immediate families, and their labrangs, and filling their labrangs like they did in Old Tibet. That is all they are doing here. THey get you to disconnect with your family and culture, so you can be a slave to theirs. That’s it. It is not complex when you see through it.

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  320. It seems that in order to get anywhere in these groups, you either have to be a) very rich, b) very attractive and sexy, c) willing and submissive, devoting a LOT of time and energy to the group and their activities. If you have none of the above qualities, they don’t seem to care if you exist. That was my impression of most of the people in these groups, although I did meet some people who were very nice – and most of the nice ones left and went elsewhere.

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  321. I was never really fully accepted in these groups and I never really had a personal relationship with my teacher either. The relationship with him takes place (almost entirely) at the psychic level. This is one of the things which I find hard to bare, the impersonal relationship I have with a teacher who is mostly in my head, yet no real, human connection. I have had very brief encounters with him where sometimes he is in a good mood and I feel a blessing, etc. other times he seems cold and like he doesn’t even see people around him, or car to either. It’s very confusing, this hot-cold attitude. As for the groups themselves, because I am not rich, attractive, or totally submissive, they don’t really have much interest in me for anything, so I am always just on the fringe, orbiting around, never really belonging, yet with one foot inside. part of me wanted to be on the inside, part of me was afraid to get into the inner core around the local lamas. I didn’t like what I did see in their behavior and the way their sanghas acted, etc.

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  322. BackAthome, That’s what I am trying to do right now. I am trying to make a decision about whether I should make that final decision. I feel in order to do this fully and completely, I need more information.

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  323. “Perhaps he pulled back as a way to get me to want to attach to him more. ”

    “Also, if lamas are predatory, how can you explain that my lama pulled back energetically and did not seem to show any personal interest in me as a student, or anything else when I met him personally”

    This is a common tactic they use, first they get in close, make you feel very very special, that you are in particular a close in student, maybe from past lives, , then they pull away, act cold, don’t even notice you, I have had that same experience with several of them, THEY ARE COOKIE CUTTER trained, you have to understand that nothing they do is spontaneous, nothing. They are also damaged children inside themselves, raised by a sick system of abuse. I dont’ know why we cant see that vividly. IT is NOT normal to be raised by old men , filled with occult superstition , a belief in demons, misogynistic and physically abusive, ( one high lama told me how his ears were boxed and they were often beaten by their tutors, in Old Tibet, if they didn’t perform an abisheka right. These are abused children that grow up into disturbed adults. it doesn’t creat ‘enlightened beings” it creates men with vast holes in their beings ,who are incapable of normal relationships and have to be constantly adored. Besides for political reasons, the Dala Lama is obviously totally and pathologically addicted to having crowds of thousands adore him! No one keeps the schedule he does travelling and smiling and smirking and being cute and adored.

    I had a lot of experience with ‘borderline mothers’ who treat their children in the same way, all loving and then cold and rejecting, it keeps their children forever seeking for the rest of their lives a “parents approval” and makes them ‘crazy’ but more importantly , it is what makes a child with a borderline mother, who has had this hot/cold “mothering” forever dependent and unable to individuate and separate. So the hot and cold behavior , keeps the devotee, at a certain stage even more dependent. They are knowingly doing this to their students. They would say , of course, it is a ‘vajrayana test’ and it is that too, for those that would ‘walk away’ wouldn’t be good candidates for servility for life . That is what the want , a servile, docile, ‘do what I say always’ for life.

    One of the mantras we said over and over in a tantric ritual was ‘ I will always do what the master says, I will always do what the master says, I will always do what the master says.

    Vows are another way of holding people in sway, they make you believe you have taken vows with them for lifetimes, just like scientologists believe, and that if you break this vow, (which is just in your head) terrible things will happen. Baloney, that is there way to hold you to them. No legitimate “piritual teacher: would try and hold a student to them forever, they would always try , like a good therapist, to make you independent and free. Not bound to them like slaves. Use your good sense again that’s all it takes. I am not saying you will not have to go through great pain to wrench yourself away, it takes great courage to do this, and the hardest thing is that you have to separate from the group of ‘friends’ fellow cult members to do this. You cannot do it, and still hang around them. I had to separate from all of them, first the most die hard, and then even the ones that were ambivalent, and there are many now , that don’t go to the practices anymore, are completely disillusioned , but can’t break away because their whole social life is still in the cult of devotees. .They were still ‘under the spell and therefore toxic to me. You will be totally alone. But when you read what the Buddha actually said, that was the 3rd noble truth, that is when you become a true ‘stream enterer” when you don’t cling anymore to these reference points.
    ,

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  324. From my experience, to get out of such a control/devotion/addiction scheme, the only way is to make your final decision.

    If you come to the point of making such a decision, you have already been pulled deep down into the swamp of deceptions. Therefore you will never know for sure who was doing what or why something happened and whether that was a real manipulation or just an imagined deception. That is one of the most insidious traps.

    It may be necessary to try to figure it out to make a decision. Unfortunately trying to figure it out keeps the connection alive, too.

    My decision is to break the connection. I destroy the connection everytime in that moment when I first notice it begins to build up again. Unconditionally. I do not think about what exactly is going on, I only notice something is trying to enter into my life again and I do not want it there. So I fight it out.

    I think the situation is comparable to drug dealers: No matter what glorious promises, no matter what colorful masquerade, no matter what seductive emotions – I know what they offer is nothing but poison to me, so why even consider what they offer?

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  325. Also, if lamas are predatory, how can you explain that my lama pulled back energetically and did not seem to show any personal interest in me as a student, or anything else when I met him personally, yet I still felt so completely and overwhelmingly connected to him personally. How does one explain the strange way he would give me blessings sometimes, yet other times he would be cold and indifferent? Sometimes I felt his blessing, sometimes I didn’t, yet when I did the effects lasted for months, even years? Why was he so inconsistent with the energy stuff I was feeling and his behavior? of all the lamas I have ever encountered, he was by far the most powerful of them all.

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  326. I am still very much connected to the lama who was my root guru. Even onw, I am still trying to decide whether it is a good thing or not. I have not totally made up my mind that this is a mind-control cult, but I am starting to wonder, which is why I am here. I’m trying to keep an open mind and not give in to my impulse to defend them, etc. I just want to know what the other side has to say and whether there is enough evidence for me to finally decide whether it is true, etc. I never felt that he deliberately got into my mind, nor did he seem to force himself on me. In fact, there were times when he actually seemed to break the connection and it was myself who wanted it back. Yet somehow I wonder if he did influence me initially and once I was hypnotized, I sought him out. Perhaps he pulled back as a way to get me to want to attach to him more. Once attached to him psychically, I totally surrendered to him as my guru, took empowerments with him, etc. So if what you’re saying is true, how does one break the psychic influence and be totally free? Is it even possible once one has taken empowerments, taken the tantric vows, surrendered, merged minds with them and they awakened your kundalini, etc.? How is it even possible to cut the connection with someone who has merged with you energetically?

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  327. “The thing that bothered me was why it was so strong in my body, even weeks after I had seen him? It was like I couldn’t shake him off, even though I wanted to. That part was disturbing. That was the part I didn’t understand. I did not want him there.”

    I understand what you are saying. Tony Quinn referred to it as ‘aligning’ with him and I witnessed it as connecting in such a way that he took advantage of and controlled their emotions and energy level and, obviously, their minds with plagerised Hindu philosophy. He does not ask for their permission. They are made to believe they are ‘special’ and ‘chosen’ to ‘make this world a better place’. If they obey him they get to feel good and if they don’t they feel the opposite; rejected, lost, no-one to communicate with, cut off from life itself. This, I believe, is possibly one of the reasons why people stay in a cult. They become dependent on the energy ‘high’. It takes courage to disconnect from someone who has convinced you that what you think (positive thought) makes a difference to you and other peoples’ lives particularly when the ‘proof’ of your specialness can bring about ecstasy (hypnotic suggestion/ energy manipulation). One of the strangest experiences for me also was feeling my energy being manipulated even though I had not consented to ‘aligning’ with him or anyone else present for that matter. As I said earlier, it started off very seductively; however, when I decided to have nothing to do with him or members of the group the effect was escalated. I was forced to ‘accept’ IT against my will. I had suspected that my thoughts and feelings and decisions in my life were being influenced, decisions being make and suggested while under influence and hypnosis. I had a very strong feeling that they (at least two) were working together to bring about a certain result and another then joined them, influencing me to work for Quinn. When I finally broke away there was a very strong sexual element akin to rape; what was happening was totally against my will. It frightened me to such a degree I had very disturbing aggressive thoughts and feelings, even paranoia, something I had never experienced before. They would have you believe there is no freedom anywhere else, in fact, the world is a negative dangerous place without them. I felt I was fighting for my very soul.

    The women who ‘consent’ are under strong influence. I also witnessed women who Quinn had alleged sex with and they thought he was the best thing since sliced bread; under influence to such a degree they would believe anything he said, in fact, they believed he was Jesus and Aideen Cowman, a witch who also needed to have total control, believed he was God. They had lost their minds to their occult practicing guru. It was very strange to meet diehard followers outside the centre. They walked as if in a trance, their minds totally absorbed by Quinn, the ‘content’ smile plastered on their faces. You could not have a normal conversation with them. It was all based on Quinn and what he thought and was doing etc. The men were the same; at times so focused (no thought) they did not seem aware of anything that was going on around them, blind to what was happening in the world. Talk about a collective mind-set; the men who worked closely with Quinn were obsessed about hair loss. When any of them veered off the Quinn ‘path’ they were reined in again and he was known to use violence. What confused me is how they were ‘adoring’ him and frightened of him simultaneously. Those who have not seen this side of him, the fringe educoists whose numbers are dwindling as I sit here; they turn their back on him because of his greed for their money.

    It IS frightening to have your mind taken over to such a degree. A different personality evolves that serves their purposes. I was not in the inner circle yet I was not free from their influence. What they did and still do, even to this day, is the reason why I dialogue on this blog. I have to warn other people. I have no doubt that lama culture is the same, practicing mind, body and spiritual control; total control of other people for their own purposes.

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  328. Is tantra really that corrupt in of itself,

    Yes Tantra from its beginnings was a ritual esoteric practice to tame demons, and to fight enemies, Tantrikas were first tolerated by imperial India and later Royalty in Tibet , for power and control and subduing enemies. It wasn’t until after the 8th century that Vajrayana was introduced as a ‘third wheel turning’ in Tibet for the masses. All these people lived in a world of superstition and myth, ignorance and fear about the world around them, and still do, that is why the Dalai Lama consults an oracle 7 or 8 times a year for his major decisions, an oracle that is possessed by a Mongolian warlord. And no one notices, all these Mind Life neuroscientists think that is just fine, and has nothing to do with them, as they kiss the DL’s ring, and bow and scrape and defer to his idiotic, sophomoric ‘teachings” These Lamaist sects and were constantly fighting amongst their different sects and violently fighting intrasect wise, just like today over the 17th Karmapa recognition. Do you know they burned Eric Currans book in India, in a mass ceremony, after the Karmapa controversy over illegal land deals and the 17th Karmapa Ogyen Trinley was almost arrested and jailed in India? That was 2011, and they were burning books. They are keeping their western students just as ignorant as their peasant serfs and slaves were kept enthralled and ignorant . Tatra was not just about sexual transgressions that tantrikas were involved in, but all social morals could be turned on its head, and ‘transmuted” to obtain power , worldly power is what these lamas wanted, and it is worldly power they still want , nothing has changed. In the Vajrayana killing , stealing , sexual activity and even ‘killing ‘ was allowed, if it served the ambiguous purpose of ‘liberating’ your enemy “Liberation’ has come to mean ‘freedom from rebirth’ but ‘liberation’ to these lamas could mean blood sacrifice and killing your enemy. You have to understand that these Lamas are only 60 some odd years physically out of the 8th century, and mentally have never come out. They are sorcerors and ‘magicians’ who use black magic and hypnotism, and various occult practices to tame their small world into submission in Tibet, for their lama hegemony. It is not just sexual abuse , it is for money power, wealth, territorial subjugation, and now they are recreating ‘Old Tibet” throughout the world, still getting masses of people to believe that they are very special and suprahuman, and they are getting away with it, because westerners who live in the 21st century, have let these varjayana tantric deceivers and tricksters into their midst having no idea , that this is NOT buddhism, not what the Buddha taught, it is occult Hindustani tantric vajrayana, westerners have not a clue who these lamas really are, what their real circumstances were in Tibet, how they really treated their own people, and how they really really feel about their western students. Western students have been clueless and now equally clueless are academics and particularly psychologists always the dumbest throughout western history and always used for the current social engineering of the powers that be, (Psychologists are as a group conformists, and not risk takers, not critics of social trends, they are implementers of social programming. They ‘go along’ as a group. Very clever to get psychologists in the west to be the promoters of this esoteric occult atavistic cult. Very very clever. No one can say they aren’t clever and devious. THEY ARE wolves in sheeps clothing and to dismiss what China is saying , even though they had over a 1000 years of dealing with Lamas and Lamaism, it so stupid of westerners, that I am sure China must feel at times we deserve them to fool us like this.

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  329. So here is the big question – and does anybody know the answer? Some of these lamas are using tantra to abuse women, but is that really what tantra is supposed to be about? It seems that real tantra (from what I understand about it) is far from the twisted, warped abuses that are going on and what they are doing isn’t really tantra in its truest sense. So how does one separate what tantra is supposed to be (ideally) from how lamas have used and twisted it to satisfy their own lust and their own agenda? And IS there a difference? Is tantra really that corrupt in of itself, or is it being twisted and misused by people who have misunderstood/abused the teachings? It is so confusing that it seems almost impossible to sort out the real intention of Vajrayana from the corruption without becoming a scholar on the subject.

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  330. Here is the little bloated toad, and his infiltrating and teaching about how to train children now. This is all through this Mind Life mindfulness training cartel of the Dalai Lama and his hegemony and mass propaganda machine intoxicating the west, toxic. .

    http://whatmeditationreallyis.com/index.php/lang-en/home-blog/item/366-sogyal-rinpoche-teaching-children-adults-that-non-distraction-is-meditation.html?highlight=WyJzb2d5YWwiLCJyaW5wb2NoZSIsInNvZ3lhbCByaW5wb2NoZSJd

    And I do not ‘excuse CTR” either. He created one of the worst and first cult milieus of idiot devotees, whose son is an abomination, but of course supported by the Dalai Lama. These Lamas don’t care if they are idiots and charlatans and untrained, as long as they are money makers and good deceivers. That is what the Vajrayana is all about. Infiltrate by deception, turn it all on its head, and usher in a world buddhocracy, the end justifies the means in Tibetan Lamaism/Buddhism.

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  331. I am telling you , every single lama, AND the Dalai Lama circled the wagons around Sogyal because if he goes down, they all will go down with him, because Tibetan Lamaism IS ABOUT sexual exploitation of women as spritual consorts for the Lamas. That is what people refuse to see in the sanghas themselves and what the larger population would be horrified to realize is what they are actually embracing . Vajrayana tantra is about spreading lamaism and using women as spiritual consorts for the lamas ‘bliss/emptiness ‘ ‘realization so they can stay on those thrones, and continue to exploit every population they touch. They are not about buddhism or what the buddha taught, they don’t even know themselves what the Buddha taught since they have never read the Buddha’s teachings and have just made up their third wheel turning the Vajrayana as ‘buddhism’. It is not. It is Hindustani tantra that was brought to Tibetan royalty in the 7th century and later to the masses by an Indian Sadhu Padmasambhava, who wiped out the Bon tradition, almost completely , and incorporated Bon, mahayana concepts, and the Hindu Vajrayana of guru worshiping bliss/emptiness couple practice, the highest Mahayoga practice of Vajrayana, to which it all leads. THAT is why it creates confusion, disorder , sexual promiscuity in the sanghas, it breaks up families, monogamy, which is always discouraged and now more actively discouraged even in society as a whole, which is referred to in these Buddhist sanghas, as ‘oneitism” .

    This is a cartel of Lamas, all of them are part of the Dalai Lamas massive deceptive programming of academia with his Secular Ethics Mind Life Institute mask. and it of course includes Sogyal,! here is his teachings schedule, that these fools actually brag about , and are so fooled and duped by these Lamas, believing that they are just here to ‘improve the world and bring peace” I am not angry, I am apalled at their affrontery , boldness and their ability to thought control western academia to this extent.. Sogyal is in the middle of this, so of course they had to protect him because they are protecting their propaganca program to infiltrate all of our school systems now , with thei cult control and mind numbing ‘meditation’ techniques, this is massive social engineering, happing in the U.S. in Europe, in Australia, and it is backed by corporations and wealthy billionaires. It is not anger, IT is outrage that you hear in my voice that we have been and can continue to be so dumb, to throw away 500 years of ‘enlightenment’ western enlightement for this! When he isn’t seducing women into his Harem he is off teaching around the world to the dumbest academics and psychologists on earth that are so stupid that they have still no idea that have let a misogynistic, tyrant inside their hallowed halls of learning. This is a massive movement by these Lamas to infiltrate academy and fool westerners with their new ‘secular ethics ‘ and “mindfulness training” and thanks to the cartel of ‘tibetan buddhist psychologists that is exactly what is taking place. OF Course Sogyal is part of it, it is pushed by Dan Goleman, of the Mind Life Insititute AND devoted fanatic of Sogyal who knows full well about his abuses, and Sharon Salzberg also devoted student of Sogyal, and the Dalai Lama and Oprah, when she isn’t pushing the Course in Miracles the Christian version of Lamaism ‘s bullshit on the masses. This is a huge and massive thought control program to dumb down the western world, to get them to give up critical thinking skills to water down our scientific values, and to implement ’emotional intelligence’ to substitute for reasoning. This is a Lama Cartel, operating now all over the world. It is dangerous to western values and it has already caused terrible damage . What you hear is not anger, it is grave concern for how they are continuing to fool so many people, and it is corporatism and a plutocracy and a corporately controlled mass propaganda media, that covers up the scandals, because they too, have no idea that sexual abuse and violence is ‘built into Tibetan Lamaism. Everyone has been duped. Ju. Do you know what Sogyal’s talk in Sydney Australia was just last month? It was about ‘contentment” that little bloated , indulgent charlatan , who lives in opulence and splendor, sexually expoiting hundreds of women, just as he hoped and expressed his wish to do, when he first came to the west and wanted to be ‘just like Trunpa Rinpoche. he almost got his wish, because he is certainly a dumbed down version of CTR. Only the Lamas hated CTR, because he wanted no part of Lamaism’s hierarchy . He made us keep away from the Dalai Lama, and it was only after his death that they came like ‘carrion crows’ to pick up the leftovers. .

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  332. Sogyal as one of their spokesman at the Mind Life Institute? You are kidding, right? Is he still their spokesman, even AFTER all of the stuff that has come out about him?

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  333. And whatever anger I still have is fuel for me to simply pick up where I left off, before I was “thought controlled” by Lamahood, I am concerned again about the sexual abuse of victims in these sanghas, (that was my specialty as a traditionally trained psychologist and therapist, before “new age psychology training lite” took over the current training programs in psychology) and I am concerned again about a more egalatiarian , economically fair society, just as I was in 1984, before lamahood’s memerizing spells, and groupmind and seductions and false promises of a ‘fast path’ to wisdom and compassion took over, and took out “one more intelligent, commited person” to creating a more truly liberal democratic society that cared about their fellow man. Thee people teach people to not care about their fellow man, only their ‘sanghas” of guru bloated and guru intoxicated sisters and brothers. That’s it. That’s all they care about, if they pretend to care about other people, it is only to recruit and get them into Tibetan lamaism. ALWAYS. Anyone that is not a Tibetan Lamaist, is looked down upon as having not very good karma. They can’t even conceive of a person being actually “lucky” to be free of it all. That is incomprehensible to Lamas and their sanghas.

    That is what they did, these lamas, like their “straight up Hindu fellow gurus’ going after young people in the 60s and 70s, they took out a whole generation of westerners. To undermine democratic values in western society and usher in a theocratic Hindustani plutocracy. They have been going after every generation since, in every disguise, ‘feminist’ (That’s a joke!), ecological’ and “ecumenical “(THATS A another big LAUGH) and now ‘secular’ ethics? Are you kidding me. With Sogyal as one of their spokesman at the Mind Life Institute? . The boldness of these Lamas knows no bounds. ‘Secular?” Ethical? From a priestly oligarchy that sees itself above the human realm and societal rules are to be broken in the varayana. That has always been true of the vajrayana. tantras. Read the book, despite Jacob Dalton still being a lama loving thought controlled supporter, it is a very well documented book about the history of Vajrayana tantra as practiced. So you will never get them to ‘shape up’ and get with the western code of ethics, Never. The whole Tibetan ‘buddhism’ lama system is soaked in the occult vajrayana of the HIndu Tantra that has kept India, misogynistic and a caste system for centuries since the 5th century when it spread in India, and undermined true Buddhism and the teachings of the Buddha. .

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  334. There may be a couple of men he rescued as well, but it’s usually women.

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  335. Another thing I noticed was that this lama seems to have a pattern of rescuing women off the streets, or from terrible abusive situations and then they somehow either become his consorts, or the mothers of tulkus, or both. I also don’t see men getting help getting off the streets, it seems to mostly be just the women – and they are generally attractive women, or at least women who are willing to work very hard and be a willing slave. They keep the consort stuff really hush-hush, so I can only suspect that these women are his consorts. They act so starry-eyed, like school girls with a crush and they dote on him. Of course the added dynamic is that they are grateful to him for rescuing them when they had no hope, so this keeps them devoted forever.

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  336. Yes, I have noticed the bowing and the scraping at the local center and the proud conceit of those who feel they are *special* to be associating with the lama. I also noticed the group dynamics around the lama and the fact that the wealthy patrons seem to get the most special treatment and they seem to be quite cocky with their self importance, not realizing that the lama has them dancing on a string, although sometimes I get the feeling that the wealthy patrons are controlling the lama….sometimes. I have also noticed that there is a lot of free labor for the lama and that everyone feels it’s an honor to serve the lama, etc. There is the same kind of dynamic at another center I went to, but not as much. And the lama who teaches at this center doesn’t some that often, so he doesn’t live here. The fact that he is not as involved with this center makes the atmosphere a bit less centered around a “guru” figure. I never got into any inner circle with a lama because I did not want to. The lama I considered my lama lives far away, but the local place didn’t appeal to me because it seemed that everything revolved around guru worship.

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  337. Of course they use hypnosis and fear and doublespeak to create confusion, after all ,they still keep their own Tibetans in Exile who can’t shake them off, bowing and scraping to the Dalai Lama, seeing him as a Living God. These Lamas kept their own people in mental slavery and poverty for over a 1000 years, they are the prototype of thought control AND debt slavery, is it any wonder that billionaires, who are told that it is because of their superior karma that they are filthy rich, like the lamas were, as the rest of us toil away, would want them to infiltrate society and undermine messy democratic values and protest over the gaping chasm between the very wealthy and the rest of us? Teach people to forgive and accept their karma, and as the Dalai Lama recenly told a western group, ‘work harder’. They are the religious “icons” of tyranny and greed and have created more chaos and passivity in the world since their arrival. They DO nothing for anyone, NOTHING, they just take, and give blessings, and take and give blessings, and take and take and hypnotize whole swathes of populations. They were a scourge on their own people and they are a scourge whereever they land and start exploiting populations with Hindu guru worship. They just take and take and give nothing back, They feel you are lucky just to be in their presence, that ‘s what they are convinced of since toddlerhood. These are sick individuals on thrones, and if they hadn’t been so clever to seduce most of the psychology profession, and the weak and useless academic profession that can write a book like the Taming of Demons, about the possibility that these Lamas were still performing human sacrifice into the 20th century , and yet NOT notice this might be a sign that they are not a ‘group’ to be fooling with, Jacob Dalton is part of the “Khyentse Foundation to ‘perserve Tibetan culture” i.e. Lamaism. NOW that is Mind Control, that a research academic, (and I advise everyone to read that book) is still under the sway of Dzonsar Rinpoche, and helping him build his Lama empire. The groupmind conformity takes over quickly in their sanghas. If you ‘anonymous’ haven’t seen yet the slurping, disgusting , obsequious behavior of ALL westerners inside all these sanghas, prostrating to them, seeing them as above the human realm , reinforcing the lamas pathological narcissism , nurtured by a sick , sexually abusive , monastic system, that commonly abused the young monks who surprise surprise are confused about sexually, have no ability for normal intimacy, or healthy male female relationships, and whether these Lamas are ALL participating in the sexual exploitation of their students, you can bet most of them are, because it is breaking their vows not to continuously have sex for the bliss state of vajrayana. Look at all of them as they have aged. Look at CTR at the end , drunken and bloated , look at Sogyal, look at Dzongsar, and Dzigar, Chogyi Ningma, there luxurious indulgent life styles catch up with them. Look at Namkai Norbu, bloated, they all look like the “Picture Of Dorian Gray” now, but their sanghas pretend that none of this is happening, the financial abuse, the sexual promiscuity with students, the spiritual abuse, the luxurious lifestyles as they get all their devotees to work like slaves for them for their whole lives, and with each sangha having their own ‘living god’ this or that “Rinpoche’ to bow and scrape around, and wait on hand and foot, then I don’t know what to say, anymore. They also know how to use the carrot as well as the stick, by allowing a cadre of wealthy benefactors, trust fund western adults , who can afford to slurp and slither around them and fund raise for them, and model appropriate
    ‘house servant’ behavior, because that is all they are the butlers and handlers and ‘adminstrators,’ in the same caste system they had in Tibet. and thse special ‘house servants’ who already believe they are ‘special’ in our own western social caste system because they have money, and the Lamas reinforce their arrogance, these wealthy , naive western ‘aristocrats’ obsesses about their bodies, their health, their status in the Lama world, and their vicarious exploitation of the cast offs, Lamahood attracts the most selfish people , and narcissistic people I have ever known in my life. Who are arrogant, self-absorbed and silly, but who can be ‘big fish’ in their little thought control ponds, with their Lamas. Awful, it is awful all of it , when you look back from a distance, it becomes a wonder how we ever tolerated such bullshit all around us for so long.

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  338. Has anyone else had experiences of being controlled-hypnotized, etc., by lamas, even when you did not want them in your mind?

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  339. When I say “bothered” by other lamas, I mean on a psychic level. Since the empowerments, they have pretty much left me alone on that level.

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  340. In any case, since I connected to the lama I considered my root lama, I haven’t been bothered much by other lamas. the problem is that I am still connected to my main lama and I am still wrestling with whether or not this is a good thing or not.

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  341. Also, let me add that with the Karmapa, his energy felt good to me, so it didn’t feel icky the way Tsogyal’s did. The Karmapa’s energy it felt loving and peaceful to me. The thing that bothered me was why it was so strong in my body, even weeks after I had seen him? It was like I couldn’t shake him off, even though I wanted to. That part was disturbing. That was the part I didn’t understand. I did not want him there. Now, several years later, when I was at a teaching with the lama I considered my root guru, the Karmapa was there as well and this time I did not feel such a strong connection with him at all. I just felt connected to my root guru. I don’t know how to explain why that would change but it did. maybe the Karmapa backed off, or maybe I just was able to block him out. Or maybe I was just sensitive to energy the first time I saw him. I am still trying to understand these experiences. i am quite sensitive to energy, so maybe they aren’t doing it on purpose to me, but maybe I am doing it to myself by somehow opening up to them in some way.

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  342. Angie, I already made a total connection with a lama and became fully merged with his mind. It’s too late to undo that. Since I took an empowerment with this lama, I don’t feel as much psychic connections with other lamas as much. It’s as if the empowerments with this lama cured that phenomena, for the most part. I do however feel totally connected to the lama I took Tantric empowerments with. Whether this is good or bad depends on who you ask. A Tibetan Buddhist would say this is marvelous. A non-Tibetan Buddhist would say it’s terrible. In any case, it is too late because I am already connected to a lama. I am starting to question whether this is a good thing or not.

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  343. Well, I wasn’t sexually abused or exploited either, nor was I even approached, BUT I do feel that I was often approached in a mind-control sort of way. Like in the example I gave with Tsogyal. I did not actually ask him to leave because I did not view him as actually being *IN* my mind, even though he probably was. It was more like I could not feel anything else but his aura and energy field. At this time, I wanted to stay connected to the lama I felt was my root guru, so I did not want to make a psychic connection with another lama that would superimpose over the connection I already felt with the lama I wanted a connection with. yet, despite my desire to *NOT* have a connection with Tsogyal, he was in my mind anyway and I could easily see how women become hypnotized by him. His energy did not feel good to me and yet it was hypnotizing at the same time. That is the weird part!

    I had a similar experience with the 17th Karmapa (the one who lives in Dharamsala, or wherever he lives in India now) when he came through my town to give a talk. I did not even attend an empowerment with him, but only his public talk. The reason I deliberately avoided the empowerment is because I did NOT want to make a psychic-guru connection with him, especially since I had never seen him before. During and after his talk, I felt as though he had simply entered my mind and heart. I felt devotion out of nowhere arise, even though I had not asked for it. I felt his energy spreading throughout my body the next day and I did not want it there. It took a few weeks to get rid of those effects and totally reconnect with the lama I wanted a connection with. I could go on mentioning other times when lamas entered my mind in some way. There is a local Sakya Rinpoche who is the head of a local temple in my area. I have felt him in my mind numerous times, most especially after he gave a gnondro transition. That was really powerful, let me tell you!!! The strange thing is that before the transmission, I had done gnondro (with a friend) informally and it just felt like a purifying practice and I actually enjoyed doing it. After the transmission, whenever I tried to do the Sakya gnondro, I felt like I was being possessed by the Sakya lineage. I know that TBs would say I had “karma” wioth the Sakya lineage, but it felt more like the gnondro was putting me under a speall after I got the transmission. of course, this only happened when I did the gnondro, not after I stopped doing it. I stopped because I did not want to be hypnotized into the Sakya lineage, against my personal wishes.

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  344. Anonymous

    Do you consent to being indoctrinated/hypnotised into believing ‘philosophical’ sound bites of ‘love’ and ‘peace’ and ‘compassion’ that are strengthened by the seductive approach of gurus/lamas to the point where you are under influence and blocking the reality of who you are? Are you so lost that you need a lama to control your mind? Are you willing to give him your soul, Your energy, your time? Are you willing to shape your life around a power/money hungry energy junkie/junkies so you are considered ‘special’? This is your choice!

    You are aware they have the ability to take over your mind. You do not want a lama/lamas taking control of your mind, taking control of your life. You already instinctually know there is danger in pursuing this type of lifestyle. This is the first sign that this constant taking from you to empower the lama does not sit comfortably with you. It is exactly how I felt about Quinn, the ‘guru’/’messiah’ thief who uses people for their energy, money and sex.

    backathome says: you are lucky that the undue influence only lasts a week. This is roughly how long a hypnotic suggestion will last. If this is the case I would advise you to stop attending places you go to that have anything to do with Lama Hindu beliefs systems. In fact, I would say, stop meditating/self-hypnotising yourself.

    One of the worst side effects, and you have experienced this already is, it weakens your sense of self-preservation; the natural desire to protect yourself from harm. It makes it easier for the next lama to break down the barrier even further; of course, this is exactly what THEY want. This is what YOU are instinctually rejecting. I sincerely hope that you are not under influence to a great degree. It can take years to free yourself and the safe way to do it is, as Chris suggests, come out of it completely.

    The guru ‘philosophical’ approach took hold in the 60’s, as you know, and those who followed the eastern religion were called ‘drop outs’ for good reason. They were so ‘out of it’ they did not seem to realise they were the most mind controlled in society under guru/lama worship.

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  345. I just wanted to add that this dialogue between Chris and Anonymous is what will lead to a greater awareness of the cultist form we are calling Lamaism. We were focusing totally on the sexual abuse issue and were being advised by people who were totally under the sway OF LAMAISM BELIEVING TB WAS IN FACT THE THE TRUE Buddhism.
    Part of the dynamic since June when Chris joined us is to have been actually having hand to hand combat with people like Joanne who not only minimised the sexual aspect they had come on here to help us with but went into total denial about it. Now their project was to defend their views about TB at all costs, suggesting that we were supporting the NKT and were supportive of China. In fact it was quite amazing that we were in contact with Buddhists in Taiwan who were concerned that TB would be regarded as Buddhism, but more importantly were very keen to warn their brothers and sisters on the mainland that Lamaism which is penetrating there is a threat to democracy instead of a knee jerk anti communism. However, they also have done a lot of research which was extremely helpful, showing the long history of Tantric Hinduism. Does that mean we support the Chinese government policies in Tibet of course not? But we equally showed that the DL was involved with the CIA. Chris especially showed how our western critical mind was under threat from Lamaism, and that helped us in DI how our former President McAleese and others in Irish society gave succour to Sogyal even when there was clear evidence of abuse.

    Also there was a complete lack of awareness of Chris’s position on the sexual abuse issue by those assumed she had some personal issue in this regard. She was saying that it was pointless trying to address the abuse issue in western terms without understanding the enabling effects of Tantra at the heart of Lamaism.

    I was not sexually abused by them, which is fortunate, only physically exploited for my labor, and for my money and of course spiritually abused, which goes with their territory of deception.

    The fact that she was not sexually exploited, though as a therapist repressed her western training for years means she is not dealing with the sexual dimension personally and can as a result not have to deal with the trauma that raises for people who have been victims of sexual abuse.

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  346. Just one issue I would like to point to here is Chris mentions ‘thought control strategies’ and Anonymous mentions ‘lamas trying to get into my mind’ or ‘another lama … completely took over my mind’ or ‘Lamas … do know how to hypnotize’. I remember Miss Riepe wrote something about the issue of hypnosis in another forum (probably Rick Ross’ Nydahl thread?). Plus, a text search for ‘hypnot’ in this thread shows more people have the impression that something like hypnosis is used by lamas.

    I myself already reported here (September 27, 2013 at 10:02):

    ‘… I followed my impulse to actively think against his words so as to not let them enter and merge with my own thoughts. But over time I slipped into a mindstate I would describe as retreated into myself and away from the situation … With no end of the “influences” trying to take over my life (my individual interpretation of what I experienced in the years afterwards) I saw no other solution as to actively go against buddhism (it already had become a fight against these influences anyway) in order to protect myself and hopefully other people …’

    Doesn’t that all together make quite a few personal experiences only about the question of some kind of mind influencing practice?

    Lamaism uses a lot of masks. I don’t think a singular personal experience can tell the truth about what it is or is not. But looking at these masks one after the next and research what other people from different backgrounds report about it, that’s how to get an impression of what may be going on and whether it is worth or too risky to put any more trust into it.

    Look for contradictions, for example on one hand you have this concept of peacefulness and on the other hand you have a personal experience of a person’s mind being obsessed by a lama in a way that the person had to mentally fight the lama off for a whole week after only just attending a lecture of that lama. Peaceful would be to kindly ask the lama “please go away and do not disturb me anymore” and the Lama giving an excuse for his misunderstanding and then leave .. completely … forever. Right?

    Just one week … you were lucky.

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  347. And the”billionaire Chinese ” just like the billionaires in the west, see a use for the Lamas again, just like in imperial China, or the Khan days, they will never let the Dalai Lama back in, but they are letting these lamas rebuild in China, they have a use there to quell the masses of peasants into accepting their ‘fate’ their ‘karma’.

    The Lamas are the ‘religion” of repressive , totalitarian regimes. and plutocracies. That should be enought to ‘wake everyone up in the west.

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  348. Believe me , I have passed through my anger phase, what you hear is passion, I am not angry at them any more, just disgusted. First fear and guilt for even thinking thoughts against them, nightmares, then the anger came, that lasted for about 3 years, rage for stealing my whole adult life, because that is what they do ‘ steal and cheat and lie’ , lie to themselves about who they are , and lie to the world.

    I have studied with all of them, in particular the Kagyu and Ningma schools. and with several very closely. I became very close in, and because of circumstances , almost all of them passed through teaching many times., , I was not sexually abused by them, which is fortunate, only physically exploited for my labor, and for my money and of course spiritually abused, which goes with their territory of deception. I spent much time, because of circumstances ‘behind the curtains” of their theatre, . I know most their ‘sanghas” intimately and they are all cults of thought control and unbelievable group conformity that allows no criticism of the lamas. . . Not all of them are abusive, even one of them I knew intimately had real compassion for people but he tried to get me to pimp for him sexually, (that is common ) they are all stuck in the eight century. They don’t have a concept of loyalty or monogamy and their tantric teachings requires them to have sex with their students. Further , they do not respect westerners, they joke and laugh about them behind their backs, particularly they joke about majority fringe.who all work like slaves for them. They see us as an ‘inferior culture’ because they are extremely jealous of our western accomplishments and don’t understand us, or our independence, or concepts of freedom and free speech and aspirations of equality, that is a totally foreign concept to them, having only catapulted from the 8th century and their Brahmin caste system, into the 20th a mere 60 years ago, and feeling and believing they are “superior beings”, they don’t assimilate, So how could they be anything but stuck in medieval times? They think westerners are stupid, and they are right to a certain extent,.. How could you respect westerners that are so easily duped. by their ‘theatre.’ Some of these ‘respected so-called western lamas’ are the most cynical of all and they can’t believe that we are more gullible than even Tibetans . They are not powerful really , they are cowards, to a one, they ‘ran away’ remember? And left their own people behind with their loot and their gaggle of ‘aristocrats”. They are supported by a network of western ‘interests’ that keep the context of deception protected, i.e. corporations , and wealthy neoliberal idiots, and many in the fields of academia, particularly psychologists whom they had easy access to through Naropa Insititute in Boulder, Co and then through the Mind Life Institute, and psychologists particularly are their enablers, often in the cult of Lamaism themselves There are causes and conditions that came together that allowed them to proliferate as they did, unsuspected for what they are ,e.g. anti-communism stances of the west , a controlled media, a growing corporatism that sees the uses of all cults and particularly this cult of Lamaism that kept their own people accepting ‘austerity’ for a thousand years to name a few reasons . But as that changes, you will see a ‘sea change’. There are many controlled media articles about the Dalai Lama for example, that still protect him, but a growing number that are critical of him, particularly as all the scandals surface again, (9-11 causes a setback) but when you look at the comments below the articles, over the last few years , at least half are mocking and disdainful. That was unthinkable even a few years ago. So a growing majority of people in the west, are not being fooled any more. That will become a tidal wave over the next few years that even the Lamas and their thought controlled ‘sanghas” can’t overcome. Already their sanghas are very old, they don’t attract young people like they did, that is why they are all in So East Asia, and Eastern Europe going after the millionaires there.

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  349. Hi Chris,

    Thank you for your prompt reply. I am open to what you say, although I feel you are struggling with quite a lot of anger. I understand that this is because you are disgusted by what you have seen and heard and you are trying to wake people up to something that you believe is a threat to Western society, etc. If all that you are saying is correct, you are quite right to be concerned. May I ask which lamas you studied with? Did you study with any of the mainstream lamas, who are fully respected within the Tibetan tradition? Also, for how long were you around them? Were you around them long enough to get an insider’s view? Does most of your information come from things you have read or things you have seen and witnessed, or been told by people you knew personally?

    I have actually been inside TB for a long time and I am certainly not a new bee or a beginner. I have even received highest yoga tantra empowerments, etc. Of course, I was never initiated into the secret higher practices that they never want to tell anyone about, but I have done a lot of research, (mostly online), about it and I have read a lot of stuff (both positive and negative) about what these higher practices are supposed entail, etc. It is hard to distinguish between what is true and what is written by those who have an agenda, (either pro or con). Also, sometimes I spot incorrect information in some of what I read, (such as within the Trimondi’s book, for example), and then I have to wonder how much of it is true.

    I have never been (personally) approached by a lama wanting sex or “tantric rites” with me, but I have talked with another woman who claimed to be approached quite a lot. She made up stuff, so I am not sure how much of her testimony can be believed, but some of the stuff she told me fit with some of the research I had been doing online. her stories made sense, at least to a point. Also, I believe I have often been psychically attacked by lamas trying to get into my mind, so perhaps that is how they get their “dakinis” primed for further sexual advances. (???) Some of them were quite aggressive (once they were in my mind) and I had to fight them off to get back in control. The worst lama experience I ever had was with Tsogyal Rinpoche, who is very powerful and psychically aggressive. I had to fight him off (mentally) for a whole week after I saw him give a lecture. I willingly let another lama in and he completely took over my mind, but I gave him permission. I feel I made a deal with him, so I don’t feel he was aggressive in that way – because I invited him in. Now I am beginning to wonder if even that was such a good idea. Lamas are very powerful and they do know how to hypnotize. For that reason, if what you’re saying is true, at least some of them could be quite dangerous. I am open to learning more and deciding what’s true. I am not closed-minded or blind at this point. I have already passed through that stage.

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  350. Another thing I suggest, is read others memoirs about being in a cult, how people go through the same disillusionment, after being controlled by the same strategies these lamas use to recruit and to control their mentally enthralled students, , mostly through the groupthink and group mind techniques as well as through the cult of personality carefully nurtured by each lama, and that grows around them. Notice that these lamas are literally on thrones, did the buddha teach this? Or the complete opposite when he said no one should sit higher than another ? (He was fighting the Brahmin caste system in his time and the Vajrayana tantra that the Tibetan Lamas are really teaching is Hindustani caste system of Brahminism, brought to them by Padmasambhava, who is really who they honor in their lineages of Lamaism, and not the Buddha, they don’t teach Buddhism they teach tantric vajrayana that had spread through India from the 5th to the 7th, taking over the Buddha’s teachings again, miring India into superstition and poverty still, nor would Tibet have come out of its terrible poverty and misery , but for the Chinese revolution.Whatever you think of the Chinese, they brought hospitals, and secular education to Tibet and ended the terrible corvee system and taxes, and 24% debt that the lamas imposed on their own people, and then when they knew that the ‘game was up’ , nine years later by the way, they fled with all their tons of gold and their aristoratic families and left they own people. Look around you, as these lamas have their students prostrasting to them, while they are on thrones, recreating “old Tibet’ living in luxury, never lifting a finger, treated like Hindu brahmin gurus, because that is what you are really doing when you are in a Lamaist system, following Hindu guruism and hindu Tantra. Probably NOT what you initially signed up for. Notice how the lamas, (Brahmin Buddhists they were called in India) are never part of the human realm unless they pretend to be ‘regular’ to seduce members, and only to seduce you by pretending to be ‘regular’ it’s just a strategy, they never mean it, they are narcissistically damaged people, not enlightened beings, and notice the ‘sanghas” and the rigid caste system that always exists around them, the ‘close in students” the majority fringe students hungering to be ‘close in” while all are mental slaves to their individual lamas, Guru yoga is to see these lamas as perfect, remember? Any transgressions you see by the lamas, are because of your own imperfect perception. Can you think of a more perfect thought control system than that? while they perpetuate a projection onto them of our “all knowing , all compassionate fantasies” onto individuals, that are actually still stuck in the 8th century, and want to return all of us to that realm again, whatever they pretend to be with their ‘feminism’ and ‘gender equality’ and ‘secular ethics” they have only one goal, to take care of their lama system and spread it far and wide, with their superstitious mumbo jumbo to control whole masses of people under their spell. . These lamas are to be pitied, as the dysfunctional human beings they really are, trapped in Lamaism themselves, shills for a montrous money making machine, the Labrangs of their lineages, think family trust funds, whose only purpose is to keep themeselves and their kind adored and pleased and served. These Lamas on their thrones, more like the Incas or the Khans then wise compassionate beings, are building multimillion dollar networks of centers and monasteries throughout the world to colonize us and to destroy western values, insidiously and over time. Do you think that is compassionate? Do you think they are really here to bring wisdom and more compassion to the world? . How have they been doing over the last 40 years or so? Has the west been better off for their presence amongst us? , more peaceful? More wise? Or more dumbed down, more mired in emotions, more self-hatred? More conflict in the world? MOre violence, More confusion? Since they have been ‘spreading’ their ‘compassionate’ ‘teachings? Since their diaspora? Some of the questions you can ask yourself, now that you have one foot outside the cult.

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  351. I’ll just add , as food for thought. Imagine taking a young child from his mother and family at 3 or 4 years old, and giving him to a bunch of old men in robes , misogynistic, and medieval, filling his head with superstition and demons, and gods, and frightening images, and this child, who has also been traumatized by being ripped from his mother and family, is put on a throne, and is taught to perform occult rituals, may even be sexual abused by these old lamas in robes,doesn’t get to be with other ordinary children, because he is told that he is an ‘incarnate deity’ come to earth to ‘save all human beings’ with this superstitious mumbo jumbo of demon and god rituals of the tantric vajrayana, and must learn to perform abhishekas, and empowerments, from his very high throne, that he sits on from the time he is four or five years old, and his head is filled with Lamaism’s occult teachings, and to fill up the terrible hole that was left , when he was ripped from his mother and family, and doesn’t get to go home anymore, but has to stay in this mass monastic situation from the time he was a toddler, both terrified and with an emptiness, that can never be filled by the crowds and masses of people that treat him like a ‘god’ that he has to fool as a ‘shill ‘ for the monastery by first pretending and then coming to believe the narrative , that he is superhuman, in this bizzare world of Lamaism. Now do you think that this kind of ‘upbringing” would lead to wisdom, or being particularly ‘enlightened, or inculcating an ability to ‘teach’ other people about ‘real compassion” or model real compassion? not just the words? Or would it instead, just by what we know about child development as westerners, create a classic case of a narcissistic hole that can never be filled except by continous need for adoring crowds of slave like devotees? Because that is what I began to see on those thrones, narcissistics that had learned of necessity to be charming, and deft at pleasing the crowd, while hundreds of duped westerners, literally prostrated themselves before these lamas, who still couldn’t speak English or Danish, or French or any of the languages after 20, 30 years in the West, because why? They were only here for our money, they were not here to learn about our culture, or anything about us, except how to get us to serve them, feed them, give our money to them, even sexual exploit us THAT is what they were trained for , from a very very young age. That is the system of Lamaism. . I suddenly saw the whole charade before my eyes, what they were really doing to us in the west. Just as they had done to their own people in Tibet. (I read everything I could about Lamaism in Tibet, NOT the fairytales that the Lamas spoon fed us like peasants) It wasn’t rocket science, to see through them, once one ‘snapped out’ it all fell apart like a house of cards. ,

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  352. Sorry, I don’t trust anyone who even has one foot still inside Lamaism, even if they appear to be almost out? Almost out is not all the way out. And until one is all the way out, they are still ‘in it.” Still thought controlled by it, That has been my decades long experience, both inside and now completely out.

    You will have to do your own research, put the pieces together yourself, if you are only a ‘beginner’ than you are lucky, It will be easier in some ways for you. If you value your critical reasoning and your western education and intelligence, you will start to do that, before they hook you completely, Most people NEVER come out and even less do they ‘blow the whistle ‘ because their heads have been filled with so much medieval crap and fear and superstition,and they have invested so much over the years, they can’t admit they were DEAD WRONG and fooled. so they just slink away, or blame one lama and his scene , making that the exception, and never see the bigger picture. . That is how powerful their thought control strategies work, mostly because of the Dalai Lama, and his deceptions upon the world stage and because he was useful politically.

    But that is changing, rapidly, because they are so narcissistic and fundamentally not very bright, since they have not adapted to the west,and still want to be living in the 8th century, that they don’t know that their ‘creation’ of Shangri-lai is shattering all around them, until the west will be so sick of them that they will all have to go back to China, where it seems they are rebuilding their monasteries anyway,while letting their own people set themselves on fire for their dead poltical causes. It was never about a “Free Tibet” how could Tibet ever be Free if it was enthralled and mentally enslaved by lamaism. That in itself should make ‘sit up straight’ and take notice of what is really going on.

    These lamas, every single one of them are about creating a world Buddhocracy of Tibetan Lamaism, i.e. their ‘mass monasticism again” they believe since they were little children, because that is what they were spoon fed, that they are suprahuman beings, incarnated to come back again and again, they are not ‘buddhists’ they are Lamaists, who believe they are incarnate deities, and what they mean by ‘compassion’ and ‘wisdom, and ‘saving all sentient beings’ is not what ordinary people mean,.Compassion to them is spreading their Lamaism world wide now so can stay on their thrones forever. They don’t see themselves as ordinary human beings in the human realm. Do you think they ever want to be part of the human realm ? Get a real job, be part of the non-narcissistic crowd of ordinary humans that they have always looked down on? Literally, from their thrones?

    . . Don’t believe me, do your own research . Everyone has to figure this out for themselves, because that is the nature of coming out a cult, no one can do it for you, they can only point in the direction of the right door to take. It has a label on it called, “use your own intelligence again.” QUESTION everything, that is what the Buddha said, and he meant it.

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  353. I am still struggling with whether to fully “leave” Tibetan Buddhism behind or not. I have stopped doing the practices because I feel they have been numbing my mind and I cannot think objectively when I do them, but part of my mind is still wondering if I am making a huge mistake. What would really be helpful would be for me to talk to an insider….someone who has seen it all, heard it all, has been a long time practitioner and is willing to tell the unvarnished truth. Of course, I don’t expect the truth from someone who is immersed in the inner circle of a Tibetan Buddhist group, but I mean an ex-insider, who knows exactly what goes on and who has been an actual witness to all the corruption I’m hearing about. I feel that unless I speak with someone who has seen first-hand abuse and corruption, not just among controversial lamas, such as Tsogyal, but among MAINSTREAM Tibetan lamas who are considered non-controversial and who are respected, etc., I am always going to have a nagging doubt about whether all these rumors are nothing more than just lies and speculation, or isolated cases of a few corrupt lamas. Yet I feel there is way too much smoke for there not to be any fire, so I am now finding it difficult to trust any of them without blind faith. I want facts, but not just from articles and news sites. I need to hear someone’s personal experience.

    Chris, I get the sense that you have been an insider and that you have actually studied with some of these lamas, such Tsoknyi Rinpoche, who is a respected lama. If you could tell me what you have seen and heard, from PERSONAL experience, not just from news and internet sources (whether credible sources or not), I would appreciate that kind of perspective. I just need to hear an insider’s point of view. If you don’t wish to talk about something so personal, I would be willing to talk privately. I know these Tantric groups never want to reveal their ‘secrets” so getting the truth out of anyone who is actively a member of any such group would be practically impossible. But someone who has left and who is now disillusioned with it might be able to shed some insight on what really goes on within these groups. I just want to get to the truth. I sense there is some shady stuff going on, but I don’t know who to trust. I feel that a lot of internet sights are biased and I don’t know the sources. I don’t know if they are Chinese or NKT influenced, or have some other kind of agenda. That’s why I need to hear personal experiences and not just academic speculation and study. Can someone please enlighten me, based on personal witnessing?

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  354. BackAtHome

    As you comment “ethical values appear to be instruments for cult indoctrination.” and “The result of these actions of the cults is utterly destructive. I doubt that is by chance. I suspect that is exactly what is wanted.”

    Yes, over a period of time Quinn’s ‘philosophy’ of selfish want, want, want would take over to the point where his workers had no problem with exploiting on his behalf; a complete turn around from a desire to help others. For many who attended the Educo seminars and the Tony Quinn Centre were exploited and, in the process, I saw many taken in and changed who then exploited for their guru, Quinn. The group were influenced to compete with each other and put on a pedestal when they were successful at recruiting for seminars; the same as any cult that has an eye on profit without ethical concern. Quinn also made it compulsory for his workers to attend seminars. Any money they earned from recruiting went back into his pocket.

    False friendships were formed and information gathered about people that could easily be used to exploit or used to embarrass them in front of others. I can recall ‘forgotten’ incidences now and I fully understand their purpose at that time. The purpose was to undermine, expose and break down defenses.

    It is laughable now when I think of how Quinn had the audacity to believe he could spread his cult worldwide. It seems that his exploitation of educoists, desire to hurt anyone who spoke out about his psychopathic behaviour and greed for money has destroyed any such plans.

    Thank God for Dialogue Ireland who persist in exposing harmful cults.

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  355. Angie, on October 19, 2013 at 3:48 pm said:

    “… to believe I was one of the ‘chosen’ few to ‘make this world a better place’. …”

    What a shame that is. These cults exploit ethical ideals for tricking persons into their control. In consequence such ethical values appear to be instruments for cult indoctrination. People begin to repel what by itself, if it were not abused by cults, could really lead to ‘this world (being) a better place’.

    The result of these actions of the cults is utterly destructive. I doubt that is by chance. I suspect, that is exactly what is wanted.

    (I mean, if a buddhist lama seriously is talking about that the Western world was given to him. Ouch.)

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  356. Earlier I commended about a distortion of reality being brought about by a worker for Tony Quinn, Aideen Cowman being one of the ‘top brass’ in the Educo cult. I perceived the ‘reality’ of my surroundings as if it was shaped like a bubble. All that existed was inside the bubble and it extended to a particular point and I could not see what was outside of it. This experience alone is a good indicator of what they do, however, I did not understand what was going on at the time and incapable of thinking or talking about it as it was ‘forgotten’ about due to the effect of hypnosis while attending the seminar. The distortion of perception is a good description of a cult bubble. Quinnites and educoists were/are conditioned to believe they only need what is presented to them, the cult bubble of perception and belief systems, by the cult leader.

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  357. BackAtHome

    I agree that is important to have a belief in God. One needs to connect on a different level than the all too human guru who, for his own benefit, leads one down the path of illusion.

    The people who stand back from self-made gurus/lamas mind-controlling techniques that bring about experiences of so called ‘enlightenment’, are less gullible to future manipulation in the sense that they are self-reflective particularly when they already have a sense of who they are and their capabilities. I also think that it depends on how far the manipulator wants to influence an individual into becoming dependent on them and on the group that dictates how much work is involved to return to a good state of mind.

    For instance, when I attended a Tony Quinn seminar in the 90’s a woman who worked for him deliberately brought about a visual distortion of what I was seeing. I perceived the ‘reality’ of my surroundings as if it was shaped like a bubble. All that existed was inside the bubble that extended to a particular point and I could not see what was outside of it.

    People are inclined to want unusual experiences, however, knowing now that what I was seeing was conjured up by another I know it to be a distortion of reality. I did not believe Tony Quinn was the ‘messiah’ when I was mentally influenced to believe I was alive and involved in the life of Jesus Christ. I was being misled to believe I was one of the ‘chosen’ few to ‘make this world a better place’.

    Annonymous

    Rather than being ‘enlightened’ our minds are being influenced to accept a conjured up reality and our energy is drawn from us and used to help them create the illusion. This causes changes in perception that opens us up to the illusion. Thought processes are interfered with which make it more difficult to understand what is going on at that point. This is where reflection comes in as it is important to work out how one is prepared for this. What steps were taken by the manipulator to bring you to this point? They know it is an illusion and some gurus tell you this, however, they distort the thinking process by further telling you ALL is illusion. Causing confusion is a huge part in mind manipulation. At this point they know they have influenced you to a point where it can be very difficult to turn away particularly when they are depending on the ‘believers’ to provide energy for their use. The individual’s right to be fully human, self-directional and capable of thinking for themselves is eroded, taken away for the benefit of the guru and his desires. This is difficult to hold on to when they have programmed/indoctrinated minds to their belief system.

    Who is more enlightened? I would say the one who sees through the deception. What follows is the difficult task of returning to a better state of mental, physical and psychic health. The process of discerning past belief systems can also be problematic depending on how far the manipulated deception took hold. Being away from the group is not sufficient in itself. One must be aware of others who, whether deliberate or not, trigger the mind-set into returning into a state that is easily manipulated. The healthiest thing to do is stop reading books that were recommended by the group or any books that promise ‘enlightenment’. Avoid going to seminars or doing courses with people who have a vested interest in manipulating your mind. Avoiding being taken in by the use of mind controlling techniques is the key to returning to normality.

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  358. Maybe this someone recognizes so-called “enlightenment” is no achievement and thus refuses to attain it. Maybe this someone repeatedly comes before god and asks for this “enlightenment” craziness forced upon her or him to be taken away and for that she or he will always recognize in time, when the unwanted influence tricks her or him into believing to be someone special, extraordinary.

    If so, then the answer to the above question would be “No”, not in top of any hierarchy. Just a small human being.

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  359. Wann gilt jemand als ein Opfer von Missbrauch durch den Tibetischen Buddhismus – Lamaismus Cult?
    Wenn alle acht Punkte des Dr. Lifton zutreffen oder braucht es dazu eine medizinische Beglaubigung, sprich Diagnose?

    Die die meisten Opfer von religiösen Kulten wohl kaum jemals erhalten haben, was nicht heißen soll, dass eine solche Stigmatisierung erstrebenswert wäre..
    Nicht einmal dann wird ihnen dies zugestanden , wenn dieser Missbrauch durch einen Guru geschieht, vor dem staatliche Sektenbeauftragten als Sektenführer warnen, wie z.B.Osho.

    Und befindet eine Frau für sich selbst sie sei ein solches Opfer von Missbrauch durch einen religiösen Kult ,dann bestünde wohl die Gefahr, dass sie sich zum Maßstab für den Opferstatus macht und eine Opferhierarchie ganz nach Lama-Kult in ihrem Denken entstehen könnte.

    Ein Opferkult der anderen Art sozusagen.

    Ist jemand der gegen seinen Willen unter permanentem Einfluß der Lamas /Gurus steht auch schon ein Opfer, oder müssen offensichtliche körperliche geistig seelische Verwundungen passiert sein?

    D.h. ein Opfer, dass Erleuchtung erlangt hat, trotz missbräuchlicher und fahrlässiger Führung durch einen verwestlichten, aufgeklärten Lama, wäre dann ja wohl ganz oben in der Hirarchie, fragt sich nur in wessen? Der buddhistischen oder der christlichen oder der demokratsich-humanistischen? Oder doch nur der selbst gebastelten?

    Jede Frau vermeidet natürlich eine Definition als Opfer aus reinem Selbstschutz, solange dies möglich ist, was es umso leichter macht ihr diesen Status abzusprechen.
    Google translate. Anyone with improvements add as comment thanks DI
    When someone is a victim of abuse by the Tibetan Buddhism – Lamaism Cult ?
    If all eight points of Dr. Lifton apply or does it need a medical certification , ie diagnosis?

    Have hardly ever get the most victims of religious cults , which does not mean that such a stigma would be desirable ..
    Not even permitted to them so if this abuse is done by a guru, before the state sect commissioners than Cult leaders warn how e.g. Osho .

    And is a woman for herself, she was such a victim of abuse by a religious cult,then probably there is a danger that it makes the standard for victim status and a hierarchy of victims could arise in their minds all the way to Lama cult.

    A sacrificial cult of the other kind , so to speak .

    Is someone who stands against his will under permanent influence of the lamas / gurus also been a victim , or have obvious physical intellectual and mental injuries have happened?

    I.e. a victim that has attained enlightenment , in spite of abusive and negligent supervision of a Westernized , enlightened Lama would then probably at the top of the hierarchy , wonders whose only ? Buddhist or Christian or humanist democratic? Or just the self -made ?

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  360. I try to not see it as a war. Buddhists are still just small numbers in the west. It is more like a violent cultural clash. But they get too much support for publicity. They appear to be much bigger than they are at this time.

    But things develop. They try to plant the seed now, rooting themselves in the soil of the world. And we now see an increasing number of victims.

    Some people may call this an “information war”. I see it as responsible actions (a responsibility I once thought would come from those buddhists themselves). People need to know what buddhism really is about and what effect it will have on our western societies. Then, based on comprehensive informations, not pro-buddhist biased propaganda, they can decide for themselves, if they really like it.

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  361. BackAtHome

    (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) Adam, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and Mathani [the Mahdi]” as “the family of the demonic snakes”?

    What passes for Buddhism is the snake in our midst. The story of Adam and Eve makes a lot of sense. They are using the forbidden knowledge. Satan was given power over the earth.

    “All participants in a Kalachakra initiation may be reborn as “Shambhala warrior” to fight in the prophesied final battle prophesied. …’”

    “From my own intuition I guess this is the moment when Mr. Nydahl places himself in top of the other person, binds the person into the faith hierarchy beneath Mr. Nydahl. Maybe someone with some knowledge in such “practices” could explain? Are these occult practices? (Btw, this is a mass event, it is very unlikely that Mr. Nydahl tells these people or that these people already know about the meaning and effects of these gestures.)”

    The above comments certainly do explain the obsession people have with their lama/gurus. I would most certainly class what happens as occult practices. It makes perfect sense to me now why I instinctively moved away and I felt it as a danger to self-preservation as what they do, regardless of what they say, does effect Christian beliefs. The war has already started and it does not surprise me at all that Lama/Tibetan Buddhism see Judaism, Christianity and Islamism as the enemy. This also explains why they are intent on watering down the Christian faith by combining it with Lama Buddhism. There is the possibility THEY WILL NOT CONNECT to a lama/guru through the head chakra but to God. I believe they use occult practices to prevent this in their attempt to indoctrinate and bind as many as they can in their quest for earthly power.

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  362. (Just for clarification: “… to leave the room and to stop evaluating his organization.” would be more correct. I was never a student of Mr. Nydahl nor a member of his organization.)

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  363. May I change to another point of Lifton’s Criteria?

    Point 8 says “… those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group’s ideology …”

    The question would be, if the actions of Lamaism/TB or Buddhism in the west target at helping people, for example to “free themselves”, “discover their true potential”, “live a healthier life” and so on. Or do they target at converting the west to buddhism and thus to supplant other faith?

    In the following I give a few examples which indicate, that the conversion of faith is an inherent part of the actions of Lamaism/TB or Buddhism.

    http://www.globalbuddhism.org/10/scherer09.htm states:

    ‘… Nydahl’s … legitimization … stems from his interpretation of the mission given to him by the Sixteenth Karma pa. … Nydahl asserts …: “He [Karmapa] gave Hannah and me the Western world, minus France, and also responsibility for lay Buddhism. He gave France to Gendun Rinpoche and the monasteries there” (Nydahl 2003: 52).’

    ‘… As of August 2008, the organization consists of over 586 centers in fifty-five countries worldwide. …’

    http://www.diamondway-buddhism.org/ states: ‘… This website represents more than 630 lay Diamond Way Buddhist centers of the Karma Kagyu Lineage, founded by Lama Ole Nydahl …’ This equals an increase of more than 40 centres (7.5%) in 5 years.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzI3_FpX3Zo at 0:40 asks:

    (translated from german language) ‘… A kind of missionary? … Nydahl replied: “But, I do not missionate. …” …’

    Then at 1:50 it is shown how Mr. Nydahl does something to a person that looks like a chakra manipulation to me. Then Mr. Nydahl places the amulet he carries on top of the crown chakra of another person. At another occasion I myself witnessed him doing the same to another person (that was the moment when I decided to leave the room and his organization immediately). I wonder what these actions are. Maybe what Mr. Nydahl described as ‘… the inauguration, the Wang, in which the force fields of the Buddhas are transferred …’ (http://www.lama-ole-nydahl.de/text_lehrer_schueler.html, translated from german language)?

    From my own intuition I guess this is the moment when Mr. Nydahl places himself in top of the other person, binds the person into the faith hierarchy beneath Mr. Nydahl. Maybe someone with some knowledge in such “practices” could explain? Are these occult practices? (Btw, this is a mass event, it is very unlikely that Mr. Nydahl tells these people or that these people already know about the meaning and effects of these gestures.)

    http://dschjotiblog00.blog.de/2010/08/02/friedfertig-kalachakra-tantra-shambala-mythos-9093433/ states:

    (translated from german language) ‘… The Kalachakra Tantra labels the “leaders” of the three monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) Adam, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and Mathani [the Mahdi]” as “the family of the demonic snakes” and conjures a global war between the Islamic and non-Islamic world, with the followers of Muhammad as the main enemies of the Buddhists. … All participants in a Kalachakra initiation may be reborn as “Shambhala warrior” to fight in the prophesied final battle prophesied. …’

    (sorry, again) http://www.dalailama.com/teachings/kalachakra-initiations shows a list of the worldwide kalachakra initiations at the end of that page. These are the kalachakra initiations held alone by Mr. Dalai Lama with 50,000 people in the west in the last 35 years, more than half of them since the year 2000 (increasing numbers per event).

    But this is all just relating to Lamaism/TB, right? No.

    http://www.tricycle.com/p/2067 states:

    ‘… We are grateful beyond words for the incomparable gift of Eido Roshi’s … unstinting efforts to root Rinzai Zen Buddhism in American soil. …’

    These are only the references I remembered from earlier research. More references regarding this theme could be helpful.

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  364. I see that this has been changed Mike above, although what I wrote is no longer in quotes in the Lifton article. Can you please change it back. I realize that is was submitted at the time anonymously, but after months on this thread everyone knew it was my writing., so the anonymous was pointless, So please put it in quotes again. Thanks you. .

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  365. Yes, Samye Ling, sounds familiar, the cookie cutter sexual abuse , and how history repeats itself over and over and over with these Lamas, and nobody notices, and nobody cares, much of the sexual abuse and corruption was coming out about Tibetan Lamaism , but then we had 9/11 and everyone got terrified into ‘shock and awe’ and cults proliferated again, and Lamaism had a chance to ‘reconstitute itself” over the next decade,

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  366. Myanmar conflict:

    Maybe an exercise in charity – http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/9324473/Tensions-rise-in-Burma-as-Rakhine-Buddhists-and-Rohingya-Muslims-clash.html

    The other side – http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2013/06/20/world/asia/20130620_BUDDHIST-7.html and http://thediplomat.com/asean-beat/2013/06/25/ashin-wirathu-the-monk-behind-burmas-buddhist-terror/

    At least an “official statement” – http://www.tricycle.com/blog/world-buddhist-leaders-response-growing-ethnic-violence-against-muslims-myanmar

    But don’t be fooled, Myanmar is not the only example of violent actions by buddhists. But this case is an example on point 8 “Dispensing of existence”.

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  367. Search engine: “samye ling abuse”

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  368. and more “peace news” from the Tibetan Lama world, today:

    Akong Rinpoche ‘assasinated’ in China by 3 Tibetans who confess to the murder and are held in custody. The assasination allegedly was over a ‘money dispute.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-24461299

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  369. More ‘peace’ news from the Buddhist world:

    Rakhine State Attorney General Hla Thein said that five people were killed, including a 94-year-old Muslim woman who was stabbed to death, and four injured in the attacks, as 800 Buddhist rioters armed with knives and sticks went on a rampage in Thandwe’s Pauktaw and Thabyuchine villages.

    “Rakhine State
    “Attorney General Hla Thein said that five people were killed, including a 94-year-old Muslim woman who was stabbed to death, and four injured in the attacks, as 800 Buddhist rioters armed with knives and sticks went on a rampage in Thandwe’s Pauktaw and Thabyuchine villages”.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/10/01/buddhist-mob-myanmar/2904245/

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  370. She has done her homework, however, she continues to show a lack of compassion for those who are under the influence.

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  371. Remind me Angie, weren’t you the one talking about God and hell and stuff like that?

    I can respect you having different beliefs and even tolerate you being derogatory towards me, but when you write,

    “There is something diabolical at work when a Christian minded person cannot experience previous beliefs due to mind manipulation.”

    It would seem that “experiencing your own beliefs” is the least of your issues. I have always maintained that there is thought reform at work in certain cult groups, and it manifests very clearly in the “real” world through the use of hypnotic language, peer pressure, love bombing, etc. as Lifton has outlined very clearly.

    The fact that I don’t accept the explanation that it is the work of the leprechauns or whatever is not “manipulative logic” as you call it.
    You seem to be getting to the point where you think you are being manipulated by anyone who doesn’t share the same beliefs and values as you.

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  372. She did not get it, did she? As desiccated as liver tablets!

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  373. Angie, on October 8, 2013 at 10:38 pm said:
    Wouldn’t you think the Holy Spirit would warn him about Christian values being undermined by Hindu/Tibetan Buddhism?

    To be sure Angie, that’s a guaranteed method to avoid occult manipulation if ever I’ve seen one.

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  374. “new age Christian centers and the mass media of the western plutocrats that protect them, they don’t even have to ‘join.’ up….”

    The new age Christian centres are a huge concern. I came across something similar myself recently and you are right when you say they don’t even have to join up; in this particular instance the participants did not know or understand that one of the tutors is a Buddhist with occult knowledge and manipulating them. I would not have known accept for my stint with the Educo cult. It is all too familiar how they operate. Hopefully someone who has attended a new age Christian Centre will contact Dialogue. It’s laughable when I hear the likes of Quinn talking about how we are conditioned by TV advertisements and likening what he does to parental influence. Is the Pope under influence? Wouldn’t you think the Holy Spirit would warn him about Christian values being undermined by Hindu/Tibetan Buddhism?

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  375. Yes, Angie , when one is being taught and influenced by those with no conscience, remember the Dalai Lama used to look out his telescope and watch all those Tibetan people living in mass poverty and suffering, and had more ‘compassion’ for the bugs he patted himself on the back for not killing. But didn’t seem to mind a few arms and feet of his Tibetan people being lopped off. That’s what their form of ‘enlightenment’ leads to, but the cult apologists will not notice what is happening all around them, and what and who they are ’embracing’ throwing away 500 years of western democracy and values, for as George Carlin said, “and nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care”.

    I would say about 10% of the western population, a critical mass, might already be ‘thought controlled by these eastern cults” through yoga centers, meditation centers, and new age Christian centers , and the mass media of the western plutocrats that protect them, they don’t even have to ‘join.’ up…. they can just be ‘processed’ through corporate controlled media , Oprah, and the ‘higher’ academic institutions.

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  376. Another quote from the author of this article:

    “Mindfulness Meditation- the focusing on breathing and detaching the mind from emotions and thoughts while still observing incoming or outgoing emotions and thoughts. This allows a directed concentration of the practitioner’s mind to a nonjudgmental awareness of the present. It is a technique for growing inner self-strengthening and mental conditioning via peaceful calm.”

    The sentence I particularly noticed: “This allows a directed concentration of the practitioner’s mind to a nonjudgmental awareness of the present.” In other words, the practitioner’s will lose the ability to gauge right from wrong action, in essence, the desired outcome is that they l have no conscience.

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  377. For those that are the lazier soldiers, they will be practicing Transcendental Meditation, which has now been rehabilitated apparently, although it used to be decried as a ‘dangerous cult’ in the U.S., land of freebies -for-all cults, just 20 years ago.

    Apparently turning minds into zombies by chanting a mantra over and over, is not a problem anymore. Particularly now that Oprah approves. The more robotic we all become the better the corporations and the military industrial complex will like it.

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  378. Quote from the author of this article:

    s meditation slowly gains DoD-wide acceptance, a better quality of life and increased professional efficiency may also entail a higher rate of conscientious objections to specific courses of actions, such as highly political wars. Nevertheless, an “American Bushido” development could mitigate this effect in the future and balance out the needs of a necessary martial service with peace, harmony and wisdom.”

    For those that don’t know, Bushido doesn’t refer to George Bush style meditating, but the ‘warrior meditation’ of Japanese soldiers who could sacrifice themselves as kamikaze during WW II. In other words military fanatics who saw their Emperor as a GOD.

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  379. And now to blow your socks off, guess who is taken up ‘mindfulness meditation” (brought to you by the Lama mafia of the Dalai Lama, the Mindlife Institute,of the Rigpa bunch of Sogyal’s ‘family” and of course the American Psychological Association and the The American Psychiatry professionnals? All again in the same “cabal” to impose social engineering on the rest of us, but now they are bringing it to fruition and taking it to a now U.S. Homeland Security is incorporating meditation among the troops,, not to make them more compassionate because we know and the mind-controllers know by now , that it makes people actually less compassionate and more morally ‘neutral’ by doing these eastern meditations, . Found this on the Homeland Security site, and by the way, the Navy shooter who killed all those people recently? He was a meditator, and went to a Thai Temple to ‘practice.his “meditation” before killing all those people.

    I think we have enough evidence now that apparently the Mind Life Institute is NOT promoting as results of all this eastern meditation i.e. ‘gang rapes by buddhist monks” genocide with machetes by Burmese monks, fanatic self-immolations from meditating Tibetan monks and nuns,

    If the world could speak it would be ‘screaming” now, WAKE up west, WAKE up, pay attention, the Shangri La fantasy you are embracing is a trojan horse:

    This from a Homeland Security site:

    http://inhomelandsecurity.com/meditation-and-the-military/

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  380. “reinforced by Buddhism”. So you, at least, admit there is factual evidence of mind control?

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  381. “The claim that a Christian failed to find their Christian values reinforced by Buddhism is NOT the same as a deliberately manipulative attempt at thought reform.”

    You have a block of wood for a brain. You keep missing the point. There is something diabolical at work when a Christian minded person cannot experience previous beliefs due to mind manipulation. We are talking about the mind being taken over by Lams/guru’s, teaching a ‘philosophy’ that does not respect or care about human values. As there is enough evidence to prove this I wonder why you persist in lying on their behalf.

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  382. Anon, on October 8, 2013 at 1:57 pm said:
    “Being interested to hear about Buddhism is one thing. Subtle mind controlling methods to keep one interested and then hooked is another and not what is expected or desirable.”

    – My point exactly. The claim that a Christian failed to find their Christian values reinforced by Buddhism is NOT the same as a deliberately manipulative attempt at thought reform.

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  383. KateS says:

    “If you want to engage on a spiritual level, then clearly this is not the same as pursuing already decided upon values.”

    Making excuses for devious behaviour cannot be justified. Being interested to hear about Buddhism is one thing. Subtle mind controlling methods to keep one interested and then hooked is another and not what is expected or desirable. Pray tell, why is the Dalai Lama pushing Tibetan Buddhism? What values does it have to offer? Obsessing about birth and death is based on fear borne from Hindu ‘philosophy’ which they use to their advantage.

    “If someone has identity issues then engaging at a spiritual level will only make this worse – they should seek help from the many healthcare professionals that we have access to in the west.”

    I have an identity. I know who I am. The problem with Lama/Tibetan Buddhism’s cultic ‘philosophy’ is its attempt to wipe away a person’s identity using very subtle indoctrination techniques. Those who are strong in their identity, sooner or later, find it difficult to accept another persona brought about by “the active and deceptive tactics that most cults use to recruit and retain members”. In this scenario the result of this manipulation is the reason for the need of healthcare professionals. What is it about this you do not understand?

    My advice to you KateS is to have a good look at the environment created by Tibetan Buddhism in the country you live in without lama/guru cultic belief systems getting in the way. If you are not too far gone you may actually experience REAL compassion for those they have brought under their control and the effects of this on society.

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  384. Wasn’t trying to be ‘anonymous’ my cache was cleared.

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  385. “The current effort by cult apologists to deny thought reform exists is linked to earlier protective stances towards cults in which apologists attempted to deny the cults’ active and deceptive recruitment practices; deny the massive social, psychological, financial, spiritual and other controls wielded by cult leaders; and thus dismiss their often destructive consequences. These earlier efforts to shield cults from criticism rests on a ‘seeker’ theory of how people get into cults (such as the argument above), which overlooks the active and deceptive tactics that most cults use to recruit and retain members…the twisted logic of some apologists implied that these ”seekers” found what they wanted, thus absolving the cult leader and his conduct.”

    Margaret Thaler Singer Ph D. and cult expert, from “Thought Reform Exists: Organized Programmatic Influence.”

    Further from this article by Singer, “Thought reform is not mysterious, it is the systematic application of psychological and social influence techniques in a organized programmatic way within a constructed and managed environment.” The goal is to produce specific attitudinal and behavior changes ”

    Singer continues: “The changes occur incrementally without its being patently visible to those undergoing the process that their attitudes and behaviors are being changed a step at a time according to the plan of those directing the program.” Ibid.

    Thus , in the case of Tibetan Lamaism and its infiltration throughout academia east and west now, teaching not buddhism, but actually a Hindu based Oneness and Self as an Illusion thought control, while focusing on youth in universities, a new generation is being systematically programmed into quietism, and justifying every thing ‘out there’ as your karma thus contributing to a moral relativism and passive nihilism, lack of a center of moral values , so that individuals can be further exploited by the thought reform cult and the corporatist culture that it is serving. Thought memes that get deep rooted: “it’s all an illusion” we are ‘all one” the ‘self is an illusion” , lead to ‘totalistic thought’ and withdrawal from active political participation for real change. The west becomes like the east, values of individualism and freedom of speech and thought, and active participatory democracy is undermined.

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  386. What I said was – whatever works for you. You want to pursue certain values, then just do it. If you want to engage on a spiritual level, then clearly this is not the same as pursuing already decided upon values.

    If you feel “manipulated” by that, then it seems to me you set it up that way because you seem to be confusing one with the other.

    The conventional western schema tends to see spirituality as underlying identity, which then underlies beliefs, then values, then behaviour, etc.

    It would seen fairly obvious that when you start tinkering with spirituality then this is likely to create changes as other levels. If someone has identity issues then engaging at a spiritual level will only make this worse – they should seek help from the many healthcare professionals that we have access to in the west.

    If you wish to establish some kind of security at the level of identity, or at the level of values, then undertaking a spiritual journey is clearly a misguided choice. It seems somewhat blinkered to claim you were “manipulated” on that basis alone.

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  387. BackAtHome

    Very astute of you to see KateS’s manipulative ‘logic’ and how it applies to Dr. Robert J. Lifton’s Eight Criteria for Thought Reform and Lamaism, the Cultist form of Buddhism.

    Your comments “Instead I understand that at some point sooner or later buddhism will actively work against my attempt to follow these values in my life. As I see it, buddhism is just interested in one thing: in itself.” and “In case we come to the insight we cannot trust the Dalai Lama, then who or what in buddhism can we trust?” remind me of when I was on seminars and Tony Quinn would ‘bypass the conscious mind’. Using hypnosis the natural ability to process information is out of action and whatever he said or projected went into the unconscious mind; whether it was understood or not many ‘parroted’ this information as if it came from their ‘self’ when, in reality, he has taken over how they perceived life. When we ‘receive’ (without consent) there is someone instigating the experience and waiting in the wings to take advantage. I saw this many times in the Educo cult. What I have learnt is the brain has the capability to experience phenomena when the right conditions are present, however, I am confident I can separate personal experience relating to spirit from conditioned experience deliberately set up to bring about imaginary and even that projected by Tony Quinn, the ‘messiah’ of the Educo cult. I know, in his case, he can only reach a certain level of ‘enlightenment’/projected illusions. I suspect it is the same in Buddhism.

    With KateS there are no straight answers, just ‘parrot’ replies that confuse. Her use of‘logic’ does nothing to further support anyone disillusioned with mind controlling ‘magic’.

    I believe it is sane to adhere to Christian guidelines than a ‘philosophy’ that offers illusions first to break down mental faculties and then hooked/stuck in crazy ‘logic’ that goes nowhere and solves nothing accept to line the pockets of conmen.

    Thank you for contributing to Dialogue. I found it very helpful.

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  388. cont….

    “The study contrasts the significant American grass-roots protest against Nazism that emerged as soon as Hitler assumed power with campus quiescence, and administrators’ frequently harsh treatment of those students and professors who challenged their determination to maintain friendly relations with Nazi Germany.”

    This will take a ‘grass roots efforts’ again.

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  389. And we have a lot to be grateful to to Dialogue Ireland , for having the chutzpah and the intelligence as a site , the only anti-cult site by the way, that could even entertain the reality of Tibetan Buddhism/Lamaism being a thought control organization, that continues to deceive thousands of westerners and lures them into its thought control centers and group mind control ‘sanghas”, Tibetan Lamaism continues to expand and grow, building 100’s of monasterie
    s and centers throughout the west even having ‘departments” at prestigious universities’. We have been here before in the U.S. Infact, we are here again.

    “This is the first systematic exploration of the nature and extent of sympathy for Nazi Germany at American universities during the 1930s. Universities were highly influential in shaping public opinion and many of the nation’s most prominent university administrators refused to take a principled stand against the Hitler regime. Universities welcomed Nazi officials to campus and participated enthusiastically in student exchange programs with Nazified universities in Germany. American educators helped Nazi Germany improve its image in the West as it intensified its persecution of the Jews and strengthened its armed forces. The study contrasts the significant American grass-roots ”

    http://www.amazon.com/Third-Reich-Ivory-Tower-Complicity/dp/1107400589/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380987046&sr=1-1&keywords=the+ivory+tower+and+the+third+reich

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  390. (For connecting the above comment to the discussion’s theme see Initiation / Ritual Point 2 “Mystical manipulation” and Compassion as a human value regardless of religion used as a hook for being initiated into the buddhist doctrine Point 6 “Loading the language”)

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  391. dialogueireland, on October 3, 2013 at 10:48 pm said:

    ‘… understanding of the difference between Buddhism and Lamaism=TB …’

    KateS, on October 3, 2013 at 11:49 pm said:

    ‘… whatever works for you …’

    Regarding buddhism, I doubt an understanding of that difference can provide a choice that works. As I said, I’m done with buddhism. I do not care wether TB or not TB (;-), Zen, Chinese, Hinduistic, Tantric or Lay. I’m sick of buddhist influences and explanations why one should learn more to understand that what obviously is wrong is enlightened instead, or look here or there and yeah, they are the bad guys but we are the good ones. No? Okay, then look here, doesn’t that look promising for you? Blablabla. From whatever perspective I am looking at whatever variety of buddhism, when I look deep enough I recognize all these teachings and circumstances and wrongdoings which show that buddhism is not as caring, peaceful or loving as it pretends to be. Instead I understand that at some point sooner or later buddhism will actively work against my attempt to follow these values in my life. As I see it, buddhism is just interested in one thing: in itself.

    My participation in this discussion increasingly brought these influences back into my life. Reminds me of what happened 10 years ago. This will probably be my last comment here for a while.

    But I want to get back to the issue here one more time: If it so much depends on the personality of the leader, then what are we to expect from the main character in buddhism these days, the Dalai Lama? Is he just a world peace and religious freedom philosopher, or just a buddhist, or is he a tibetan buddhist or even a tantric manipulator longing for world domination? Can we believe at least his words?

    In August 2014 DL will visit germany again. The DL event is presented with the words (http://www.dalailama-hamburg.de/Dalai-Lama.5.0.html):

    (Google translate, corrected) “For several years, the Dalai Lama spreads the idea of ​​secular ethics. By this he means human values​​, uniting all of man, regardless of religion. To promote these values ​​and to develop a universal culture of compassion he calls one of his life goals.”

    At the last day of the event there will be … yes, you probably thought so already … a public initiation (http://www.dalailama-hamburg.de/Programm.4.0.html):

    (Google translate, corrected) “Initiation in Avalokiteśvara, the Buddha of compassion … this ritual that is intended primarily for practicing Buddhists, the Dalai Lama will transmit the blessing of Avalokitesvara … non-Buddhists are welcome to participate, they will have no obligations.”

    Can one participate in an “… Initiation …”(!) or receive a “… blessing …”(!) of any faith without having one’s own faith or non-faith affected by that?

    But for the public eye it is made to look as if the DL only wants to promote “… human values​​, uniting all of man, regardless of religion … ​​and to develop a universal culture of compassion …”. That is what is drawing in new people. At the end of such an event it is very likely that any critical position is taken down enough to then participate in such an initiation. And yes it is true, they will have no obligations: buddhism will not ask them for anything but instead will break into their lifes without asking for permission. They will receive the priceless gift of experiences they can not handle and when complaining they will be told, it was all their fault and they just had to learn more, develop a deeper understanding … of course from the buddhist explanations, even though they were non-buddhists before participating in such an initiation. But who cares? The western public surely does not.

    BackAtHome, on August 8, 2013 at 5:44 pm said:

    ‘… It seems this lama virus (just to have a term for this) is attacking the realms of spirit and mind in general. … “They will appear ‘ecumenical”, ‘scientific” , ‘feminist” , democratic, ecogreen, whatever it takes, to infiltrate the hearts and minds of the west.” …’

    Finally back to the question: What are we to expect from the main character in buddhism these days, the Dalai Lama?

    In case we come to the insight we can not trust the Dalai Lama, then who or what in buddhism can we trust?

    After years of buddhist influences and more years of trying to find out what is going on, I came to the conclusion that I can not trust buddhism a single little bit. Instead the best is to actively oppose buddhism while avoiding personal contact as much as possible. The reason? From my point of view buddhism does not give, buddhism does not ask, buddhism takes – all it can get and by any means necessary, deviously and two-faced.

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  392. BackAtHome, on October 3, 2013 at 8:45 pm said:
    “So you would say, there is no such thing as “the” buddhism?”

    Kind of impossible to answer that question. The same could be asked of Christianity, Islam, or even of Democracy, and although there are some central, core tenets, the outward manifestations may look very different.

    On an individual level I would say, whatever works for you, but on a wider level, there do seem to be certain basic aspects which orient us.

    The social context for example is quite important in this respect, and I think that there are some real problems with Buddhism in the States due to contributing factors from both sides, which Chris has highlighted, but which don’t necessarily apply to the situation in other settings.

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  393. BackAtHome we all have a lot to be grateful to Chris for she has given us an understanding of the difference between Buddhism and Lamaism=TB. You have described this clarity and have done well to do it in English even though this is not your first language

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  394. So you would say, there is no such thing as “the” buddhism? It all comes down to the question of how the respective leader and his group are and that defines what is taught and how it is taught, only they all use the same trade mark “buddhism”?

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  395. haha, nice question. Have you ever met anyone, Tibetan or otherwise who you would describe as “egoless”?

    Again I think this comes down to a misconception about what is really at stake – for me, it’s more about transforming the grid which locates or divides me from the world – like a grid on a map, the map itself doesn’t change that much, but the grid showing the relationships and demarcating the boundaries is what changes.
    (If anything, on a level of “personality”, I’m a lot more “me” due to increased confidence.)

    I agree with what you said, that it’s not only western Buddhists involved here, but for me, the issue in western sanghas is really compounded by the sheer weight of the number of people who want to believe there are fairies at the bottom of the garden – even in groups where the Lama isn’t like that at all there are still people like that who long to ascend to a “higher plane of existence”, and as I see it, it is the force of numbers that go to make up a cult – obviously when the leader is also like that, then the chances of cult formation rise dramatically.

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  396. KateS, on October 3, 2013 at 2:24 pm said:

    ‘… avoid those people like the plague.’

    Agreed, only it is not only the “western buddhists” who try to attract people by any means. We may include more or less traditional tibetan buddhist temples with real tibetan monks here, too.

    So, KateS, you know so much – do you have an explanation for how to be compassionate and warm-hearted to people while in the end convincing or driving them to loose their ego?

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  397. BackAtHome, on October 3, 2013 at 1:21 pm said:
    “recognize the difference between these experiences and the necessity to not believe I was able to know what they mean.”

    This is part of what I was suggesting, but I would take it a step further and suggest that these experiences don’t really “mean” anything at all, not in terms of “belief” anyway.

    So, for example, when I read about your experiences I’m thinking – maybe that was nice for you, maybe you found it unsettling – but in terms of belief, it has no real significance for me.

    I know this contradicts a lot of what many “western buddhists” may think, and they may well all tell you how wonderful for you and how blessed you were etc. – I avoid those people like the plague.

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  398. Angie, on October 3, 2013 at 11:58 am said:
    “when the manipulator is intent on bringing about a certain result, that we have a choice in that moment to reject it.”

    You may well be right about that specific moment, but I was talking about the wider implications, like what happens after that moment has passed and we try to make sense of that – if we yearn for some kind of escapist “drug” trip and think that is the “truth” about spirituality, then that will make us far more vulnerable to that kind of manipulation in the long run.

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  399. Just to clarify: With “led home” I am not(!) refering to the vision of the cloud of light at the buddhist temple.

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  400. Two remarks (at least the second is on-topic regarding point 2 mystical manipulation):

    1) I did not know buddha, but from what I learned so far he was probably the master of rejection of any experience, whether coming from the outer world or from within himself. I would not call that “grounded”, “level-headed” or “spiritually growth”. I would follow the interpretation of western psychology which, as I believe, calls that neurose or psychosis.

    It all sheds another light on the most basic buddhist teachings. Apparently in their final meaning they do not aim at avoiding actions that cause suffering for making this world a better place. Instead they seem to aim at making people not fullyparticipating in their lifes any longer so that they interpret any suffering as not happening to their true (non-)self. Instead, according to buddhist misinterpretation of reality any suffering just happens to a non-existing body, ego, person etc.

    Altera Sophia posted a link in her comment from August, 8th (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamara-conniff/the-dalai-lama-proclaims_b_297285.html). That report states “His Holiness’ message is always one of compassion, harmony, warm-heartedness …”. That is the Dalai Lamas central message. No argue about that, right?

    Is anybody here able to explain how to be compassionate or warm-hearted towards people while in the end teaching those people they are not existing? Or is it possible, those teachings of compassion and warm-heartedness are just means to drive people into the claws of buddhism?

    I think I am beginning to understand why followers of the buddhist dogma are able to believe in such nonsense. But it does not fit my real life experience. That’s too crazy for me. I’m done with buddhism completely, even the most basic teachings.

    2) For my part, I am 100 percent convinced now that buddhism is manipulating spiritual experiences of people. Don’t ask me how they do that, I don’t know. But now, up to 10 years later, I am able to look at some of my buddhist-related experiences from another perspective.

    Another example:

    While in 2003 visiting friends (not anymore, I want to say) living at Wood Valley on Big Island of Hawai’i, at the last day on the way to the airport I was asked if I wanted to visit the “nechung dorje drayang ling” temple in Wood Valley. I stayed away from that place because I heard about an unharmonious dispute the temple was involved in. Last day, last chance, they stopped at the temple, placed a vase with water and flowers in my hands, led me into the small temple room where I had another vision: It was as if I was looking through matter and into empty space. As if where matter was, the floor, the walls etc., at the same time was space, like looking out to the stars. I instantly decided to not talk about it. I felt somehow stronger afterwards, bigger as if grown by several centimeters. I was neither anticipating that nor was I prepared for it in any way. I still believed, buddhism was just a philosophy. Why should a foreign culture not build temples for the originator of a philospohy? Why should a tourist visting a buddhist temple have any deeper meaning than a tourist visiting a christian church?

    Just recently I read “… Buddhism speaks about … insubstantiality … One looks through the passing existential factors … at the emptiness behind them. … open and limitless space …”.

    Another example:

    The first time I remember “the” vision I am describing here was at age of about 18 or 19. At home, I looked out a window and saw in the distance something like a land with hills and trees, all made from golden-white light. The land of milk and honey?

    Second time was at age 25 or so. It was more or less the same vision, the only difference was that the land seemed to be closer.

    In the year following the 2003 journey to the Big Island, I developed a very intense interest in spiritual topics. After that previous experience I believed I was on a way to discover something new and important, but unknown, at least unknown to the west. One part of that was to understand, what that experience in the temple meant and what was to discover next. Stupid me. It was the time when the Dalai Lama and Buddhism in general with the Nobel peace price and everything still had the appearance of being peaceful beyond doubt. I was not a buddhist, but interested and why not stay at the temples guesthouse, show some respect for another culture and let them earn a few dollars? I do not remember if it was 2004 or 2005. Since I had noone to tell me what was happening, I somehow thought that the temple’s monk was my teacher and I once said so. When I was there at the right time, I attended the prayers. Another, almost hysterically hyperactive man was there at that time, too. Nothing extraordinary happened. One of the last days I decided to drop out of the chanting and to ask the universe (as I said, stupid me) to show me the next step. Yes, triggered by the previous experience this time I was anticipating it, and I felt prepared for it. My body began to breathe very deeply while I had the vision of a bright cloud of golden-white light in space which felt like home and towards which I was travelling with incredible speed but it was very far away. I wanted to be there and nothing else, but I was pulled back and when I was back in the temple’s room I had the impression that the monk had pulled me back. Later the hyperactive man asked what I had seen and said he had contributed to pushing me up there.

    I had a similar experience just recently at the protestant “Kirchentag”. I took a rest in the sun and felt like being embraced by an endless sea of flowing white and yellow light. A place of peace and no intention and thus no struggle. A place to rest for as long as not having any individual thought opposing or analyzing that “state of being”. But it felt different, not so much like me as a separated individual coming to his homeplace, but more like dissolving into a larger unity.

    Again, just recently I read a quotation from a buddhist Lamas book “Compared with the radiant power of open and limitless space everything equals suffering, even the most exciting moment or love. Event he most beautiful wave is less fulfilling than the sea itself.”

    I want to thank Chris Chandler for pointing me to that online paper. By reading that paper I was able to recognize the difference between these experiences and the necessity to not believe I was able to know what they mean. I believe, at these times we can not be sure about the origin of such experiences. That may have been different at the times of christian mystics a few hundred years ago. At present, I can only ask for that when the time comes I will be led home, not dissolved.

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  401. KateS

    I am aware of a large segment of society who would, at the mention of ‘enlightenment’, happily tell you where to shove it. The most vulnerable are those who are interested or attracted to living a better life and believe if they make changes in their outlook this will follow.

    People are given the impression that the practices of relaxation/meditation will improve their sense of well-being. I would say that this is evitable and better for you without religious or philosophical indoctrination; just simply relaxing the mind. The Dalai Lama talks about reaching a state of happiness as something desirable. What he does not explain is that it is simply an increase in energy that brings this about and the need for this, being ignorant of the level of interference that inevitably follows, will create a dependency.

    What I consider dangerous is the opportunity taken by gurus/Buddhists to use that state of mind to indoctrinate, using occult abilities to break down barriers. The level they have reached influences the outcome of experience. Those attending are conditioned to continue doing so.

    Recently I was subjected to manipulation for no other reason than this person was trained to do it and working with a hidden agenda. It was not discussed openly for approval nor is there any form of written consent. The question is, why expose people to mental and physical manipulation? Why continue interfering with their state of mind? On whose authority do they have the right to infiltrate and change Christian belief systems?

    Overall, in my experience I was not seeking what happened and not one, so far, is prepared to take responsibility for adverse effects. I think it ludicrous that you think it possible, when the manipulator is intent on bringing about a certain result, that we have a choice in that moment to reject it. The law needs to change to enable recourse to justice and compensation to right the damage caused by undue influence.

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  402. BackAtHome, the best “wisdom” of TB on this matter is that they are just temporary experiences and nothing to cling on to, nor anything needing interpretation.
    The worst “wisdom” can also be found in TB too, such as judging the authenticity of these experiences, how “amazing” it all is, whether you grew from it, how marvellously “meaningful” it all is, etc.

    If it feels overwhelming, then it is the opposite of “nirvana” – this is what I’ve been trying to say on this matter – that we tend to have these expectations of some kind of transcendent experience, perhaps influenced from people like H.P.Blavatsky, but really that is a deluded state.
    Buddha himself was perhaps the least excitable, and the least thrill-seeking person. He was very calm, grounded, and level-headed, and that is really what I think we should be seeking in terms of spiritual growth.

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  403. I know this is a bit off-topic, but I feel I owe an explanation. In an earlier comment I wrote I would be careful about “spiritual” experiences. This was not meant to say any “spiritual” experience is evil. None of us can know such things for sure. A few of us had experiences which they think were created or manipulated by cult leaders or members of a cult. What I wanted to express is, if I have such an experience I can not know for sure about the meaning of such an experience. Is it a vision of god, of paradise, or of buddhist nirvana or just something made to feel so overwhelming that I will probably choose it, but after making that choice will turn out to be another deception to pull me away from myself?

    With being careful about such experiences I meant, I and probably most people can not know for sure how to interpret such experiences correctly. Maybe in some cases the best attitude is to trust and to just go with it. But from my past, all I know is that I would probably feel spiritually more salvaged and enjoy my life more if I had rejected some of such experiences.

    But I can not know what is right for you.

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  404. http://fullcontactenlightenment.com/2012/12/book-review-life-after-death-by-damien-echols/

    Yes, indeed, Echols received the ‘Medicine Buddha’ transmission from a Tibetan teacher, and is out from death row, and has set up shop teaching meditation and Energy work sessions, in Salem Mass.

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  405. This is from Elephant Journal, (front for Shambhala International who became a New Age combo Hindu Yoga/Tibetan Lama group to deal with its constant brink of bankruptcy) . Waylon Lewis is a Tibetan Lamaist and has a stable of young, Boulderite Colorado ( City of Lamaism) and Tibetan/Lama/Hindu Yoga ‘journalists”. The newest chaos that Tibetan Tantric Yoga is creating to break up families, monogamous relations and advocate what? Why

    Polyamory of course, and monogamous relations, even serial ones, will soon be diagnosed as ‘One-itis?

    http://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/08/caught-between-monogamy-polyamory-a-case-of-one-itis/

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  406. The new buddhists and Buddhist teachers in the U.S.: I’ll bet he converted to Tibetan ‘buddhism’:

    http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/article/2013/06/25/damien-echols-salem/3/

    Salem , Mass

    , “Convicted of murdering three young boys in Arkansas, Echols spent 18 years on death row until a series of documentaries and articles destroyed the case against him”….

    Now Echols is a celebrity and has set up shop in Salem, teaching ‘meditation classes and ‘one on one energy work sessions”.

    In prison, Echols meditated up to seven hours a day to help pass the time, and to deal with pain. Now, in an office building on Salem’s Essex Street, in between a toy store and a church, he offers classes in meditation as well as one-on-one energy-work sessions. It’s his place of business, but a kind of man-cave, too. When he doesn’t have any clients, he’ll come to the small room to spend hours drinking tea, blasting Danzig from a boom box in the open window, and watching people and their pets in the square below, with only a replica Buddha for company.

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  407. “My conclusion is, that this is a forced and perverted teaching of buddhism coming from a position that needs to prove to itself that it is right.”

    I agree; an experimental approach that will go terribly wrong.

    Apart from the person I commented on before who manipulated randomly, I have also come across another who, in a mentor capacity, manipulated the stomach chakra with the emphasis on self-esteem around earning money when I studied psychotherapy. I let her know that I knew what she was doing and that I could no longer continue training with her. She understood I rejected it on principle. She was hardened in her zeal to make money and this seems to be a character trait that develops as they are caught up in projecting the successful life style they hope will attract others. I abandoned practicing when I had the experience of not being aware of what I had said to a client during a psychotherapy session as I had a very unsettling experience of previous influence by a woman who had been my therapist who had taken advantage of me by doing hypnosis under the guise of relaxation. My client mentioned relaxation sessions she had attended and I knew the therapist as the same person I had attended. She was heavily influenced by Tony Quinn. Along with a growing suspicion of the college I was with being infiltrated by tutors who were influenced by cultic methods what happened with this particular client sealed my decision to leave the college and abandon my studies. The premises the college recommended to practice from was run by a woman who was shamanic practitioner. Whether the college was aware of this I do not know. On first meeting she wanted me to join her group. On our last meeting I was subjected to the impression that she was getting information from her ‘guide’ about me, disrespecting my privacy as I had given no indication of wanting it.

    Any time I spoke with therapists and other professionals about what is going on they sit with open mouths of disbelief and some encourage me to continue, however, under circumstances where one finds themselves very vulnerable it is too easy to give up whereas it is the time to persist in informing the public. May everything that is holy protect us.

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  408. Angie, your message pretty much sums up what I called “influences”. My conclusion is, that this is a forced and perverted teaching of buddhism coming from a position that needs to prove to itself that it is right. Maybe like:

    – If Buddha said everything is suffering and the body is a source of suffering, then it is good to make a persons body sick, so that the person understands that the body causes suffering.

    – If one goal of Buddhism is to understand that our perceived “self” does not exist, then it is good to destroy the self-esteem of a person.

    – If the final goal is to cease existence because in buddhist reality there is nothing but a base consciousness in otherwise empty space, then it is good to destroy every aspect of a person.

    And so on. I think it becomes understandable now, why a base consciousness causing such teachings is not compatible with god in the christian belief. It is also obvious how this is the exact opposite of what most people expect when entering a “spiritual” path to make their life and the life of their fellow human beings more enjoyable. I think it is also understandable why, when comparing the superficial PR image of buddhism in the western public with these real life results, one can speak of a devious betrayal.

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  409. “To me Nydahl’s speech seemed arrogant and respectless up to the level of being unethical.”

    This is how I experienced the person and I wanted to reject her influence.

    “But over time I slipped into a mindstate I would describe as retreated into myself and away from the situation and by that too unalert.”

    The above is how I felt also. It was totally the opposite of how I needed to function in the environment I was in. I also felt my energy was being interfered with and I was being dragged back into a state that was counterproductive to my well-being. I felt disorientated. It silenced my voice and interfered with memory also. Instead of feeling close to others and enjoying their company which I had been previously doing, the longer I was in her company, the more I felt I wanted to isolate myself. How can one explain this to others? It is not a rejection on my part. They are a danger in our midst and if people had knowledge of what they do they would not want to subject themselves to their influence.

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  410. Remark: It was a publicly announced book presentation in a public congress center, not a secluded Nydahl/DWB event.

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  411. I am still gnawing my way through that online paper and now I have a story to share and a question.

    My first personal encounter with Mr. Nydahl was at the presentation of his book “buddha and love”. At that time I was focusing on what I thought of as being a tradition of love. That including respect and peace, I saw no need to bind myself to a particular belief, philosophy or religion, though I have my talks with god. I was certainly not a buddhist, but still believed buddhism was a philosophy, which offered valuable aspects on the idea of living a harmonious, loveable and openhearted life while allowing others to do the same. How that all was going to change.

    I did not remember having heard of buddha teaching anything about love, so I was interested what this might be. The seat I took in the crowd was demanded by one of Nydahl’s followers. Somehow I ended up sitting isolated. It would have been easy to recognize that I was not a member of his organization. To me Nydahl’s speech seemed arrogant and respectless up to the level of being unethical. I remember I wondered how such a person could be a buddhist anything and especially writing about love. I followed my impulse to actively think against his words so as to not let them enter and merge with my own thoughts. But over time I slipped into a mindstate I would describe as retreated into myself and away from the situation and by that too unalert.

    And then suddenly I saw a vision of a lightning finding a way through the room to a not very well shaved man’s cheek and the moment the lightning hit that cheek I felt something I can only describe as a severe electric shock.

    Now in that online paper I read for the first time that in TB mysticism – yes, it is TB itself which believes in mystical realms and actions – a sand mandala embodies the entire universe, which is then destroyed with the “thunderbolt” (vajra). Hmmm … vision of lightning thunderbolt, vajra vajrayana. Nydahl did occasionally compare enlightenment with being electrified.

    Does anyone here have an idea what happened in that moment?

    Was that some kind of self-illusion happening in my visual cortex combined with a physiological reaction of my body? Both due to that introverted mindstate after sitting motionless for a long time while listening to an entirely rejected speech?

    Or is it possible that this was what the online paper describes:

    ‘… “Awakened” buddhists do not live in the material world, like we, who are “delusioned,” i.e., not “debordered,” but in spheres where, in an occult way, they handle “supernatural energy fields.” … Manipulations of one’s own “energy body” effects the entire universe. …’.

    I can not stop myself from the following epilog:

    No matter what that was – my participation in this discussion shows that in the following I had to give up my idea of living a harmonious, loveable and openhearted life. With no end of the “influences” trying to take over my life (my individual interpretation of what I experienced in the years afterwards) I saw no other solution as to actively go against buddhism (it already had become a fight against these influences anyway) in order to protect myself and hopefully other people against such darkening perpetrators.

    Peace, love and happiness? Yeah … nice dream … I hope these crazies all together dissolve into their worshipped, impersonal base consciousness as soon as possible. There they may do whatever they want to each other and let us real people in this real world live our real lifes like we want.

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  412. Angie, I wish the best for you with that decision.

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  413. BackAtHome

    I have stepped away from the situation. Pity it is I who had to leave. I suppose it should not surprise me if people who do not know what we comment about are slow to act.

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  414. You can bet your bottom dollar that, particularly westerns, were totally unaware of the ‘hell’ they were being directed towards when taking yoga classes or relaxation classes. What Tony Quinn was doing was kept secret. From the information I have gathered it would not surprise me, taking into account his reputation for sexual practices with many woman, that they did not know what the word kundalini meant and totally ignorant of the outcome of ‘advanced yogo’ as I heard mentioned on a couple of occasions while sitting in the class on a chair. What most going there were aware of did not look like something to be concerned about.

    I had a book years ago (cannot remember the name or author) about the dangers of psychotherapy. I lent it to someone and did not get it back. The last paragraph referred to some new approach in psychotherapy and referred to the arm (upper arm I presume). Quinn does this technique all the time. The upper arm is squeezed to test how deep they are into the unconscious state. On many occasions I heard that women would see Tony Quinn in the room even though he was not there in person. Under hypnosis they are open to any suggestions made. I can see why both women and men are in terrible danger and may explain why the Tony Quinn Centre gym in Eccles Street, the first one to open, was compared to a brothel. Speaking to a young woman about a year ago who trained in the gym in the 90’s, she told me how she had found herself sitting on some older guys knee and feeling drawn into having sex with him. The split second she became aware of what was happening was enough for her to get up and leave. She found it very puzzling how it happened in the first place as he would definitely not be someone she felt attracted to anyway. How strange is that?

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  415. Yes, but isn’t the whole point of #7 about reinterpreting “meaning” in order to bolster the group ideology?

    What I am talking about here is the idea that all meanings are only ever ideological, so it’s actually a clash between non-doctrine and personal ideology.

    In other words, when westerners are “seeking meaning”, they are thoroughly unprepared to have all meaning stripped away – which seems to stem from a fundamental misconception of what they are actually doing there in the first place.

    It has become kind of “hip” to be a “spiritual seeker” and yet anyone who has ever seriously undertaken such a journey will tell you that it is possibly the hardest road you will ever travel.

    That’s why my interpretation of cult formation is about those who flinch from this confrontation with “the void” and instead try to take refuge in some kind of ideological padding – of which there are many within the current Tibetan Buddhist groups, the Lamas included.

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  416. Just to make the connection to this thread’s theme: Still discussing point 2 “Mystical manipulation” and in this context experiences which some people experience (or only interpret) as being mystical but of which at least some could be psychological problems resulting from practices of TB. The indifference of responsible persons in such groups to these problems may also relate to point 7 “Doctrine over person”.

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  417. A wonder has happened! I completely agree! ‘… the sooner Tibetan Buddhism is free of people trying to “find themselves” or who are “searching for meaning” …’ Yes! Because that is exactly the type of people they are trying to attract in the west. So if they stop doing that, they will have almost no more followers in the west and we will finally be free of these …

    ‘… dangers, or psychological difficulties, associated with intense or excessive practice of spiritual disciplines …’ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini_syndrome) – I guess we can come to an agreement that sacrificing one’s ego may be seen as an intense or excessive spiritual practice.

    That wikipedia article about the kundalini syndrome finally confirms the incomprehensible irresponsibility of so called spiritual teachers including certain TB lamas, who do not prepare interested individuals for the difficulties or dangers they may experience before putting them on the track of such spiritual practices. They are the Pros in this field, right? They have to know about this problem. Do they inform people about this problem? Are they able to recognize, let alone help people who show some of the symptoms?

    ‘… biological plausibility of meditative practices and Yoga causing acute psychotic illness … suggested by a psychiatrist as being related to alterations in neurophysiological parameters … which may be used to prescribe or proscribe yogic and meditative practices to certain people …’ – Do they test interested people beforehand to recognize when to proscribe such practices?

    ‘… Kundalini-symptoms may, or may not, be associated with psychopathology … classical western psychiatric treatment may not be the most appropriate approach towards kundalini symptomatology …’ – But it is recognized that Kundalini episodes need to be handled.

    ‘… a danger that individuals experiencing kundalini-symptoms could receive an unfortunate diagnosis, and thereby be institutionalized and treated as schizophrenics … predicaments surrounding psychiatry’s treatment of religious and spiritual issues, i.e. “occasional, devastating misdiagnosis; not infrequent mistreatment …’

    ‘… a distinctive neuropsychological profile … fantasy-proneness, disassociation, absorption, and temporal-limbic hyperconnection …’

    ‘… resemblance between kundalini awakening in its early or undirected state and the state of psychosis …’

    ‘… began to experience dramatic and distressing changes in his body and consciousness … passage of twelve years … traumatic experiences … awakening of Kundalini … in a body that was not attuned to it, could lead to a variety of psychological and physiological problems …’

    ‘… an acute, time-limited episode characterized by disassociative, paranoid or other psychotic or non-psychotic symptoms … some … believe it to be a case of kundalini energy in disarray. Over-zealous practitioners of Kundalini, Qigong or Buddhist meditation, without proper guidance or restraint, were observed to lose touch with reality …’

    And what do they do? “Oh, meditation is good for you! It helps you to relax and be healthier.” Some even may tell you to just do guru-yoga meditation or begin with ‘… the inauguration … in which the force fields of the Buddhas are transferred …’ (http://www.lama-ole-nydahl.de/text_lehrer_schueler.html)

    Is such irresponsible behaviour ethical? Is it tolerable? Is it even legal?

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  418. …to put it in entirely modern, unsentimental terms – someone goes to a certain Guru, “looking for meaning”, and the answer they get is that they are just an object for another object – i.e. it is totally meaningless.

    Wasn’t that precisely the answer to their question?

    Why would they be unhappy with a thoroughly modern answer such as that one unless they were holding onto to some romantic ideal?

    How much more “enlightening” can this get? – It is totally “beyond meaning”, or in other words, pure meaninglessness.

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  419. I know you’re teasing, but on a serious note, there does seem to be a tendency among Tibetan Buddhists, both students and Lamas, to attribute mystical status to the things they don’t comprehend – even the likes of Stephen Batchelor or Richard Dawkins seem to fall into this trap created by a humanistic, antropomorophic distortion of what is essentially quite a clinical, de-romanticized viewpoint.

    So as far as I’m concerned, the sooner Tibetan Buddhism is free of people trying to “find themselves” or who are “searching for meaning”, the better for all concerned. (If you’re “searching for meaning” then use a dictionary!)

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  420. I would like to listen of a not metaphysical understanding of karma, rebirth and nirvana! But only with some quotes from Hegel about that conception!

    You must not answer, Kate, I am just joking. I know the hair-splitting nature of the concepts which suggest, it is not metaphysical. I am not interested, thanks.

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  421. Marte-Micaela Riepe, on September 25, 2013 at 10:41 am said:

    ““people still seem intent on belief in something metaphysical.”

    Yes, Kate, like in Karma, Reincarnation and Nirwana.

    Hopefully you do not, Hegel would turn over in his grave.”

    – I can only say that if you have a metaphysical understanding of karma, rebirth, and nirvana, then that is probably what is leading you astray.

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  422. BackAtHome, on September 25, 2013 at 11:17 am said:
    “Can you explain what such “energy manipulation” is and by what worldly means they are caused?”

    There is a lot of material and further reading to be found here,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini_syndrome

    Some authors use the term “spiritual”, but usually in terms of a personal spirituality rather than any kind of external “occult” influence, although given some of the symptoms, one can easily see why they may be mistaken for such.

    Certainly, this is not something exclusive to Tantra though, and seems to be present in the practice of yoga generally and other systems which involve channelling the flow of “chi”, such as is widely found in China.

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  423. “As I said, I have absolutely no interest in a conflict at the personal level.”

    Nor do I. Have a nice day!

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  424. Dear Ms. Riepe, I did not blame your position, I just said I recognize certain patterns which remind me of patterns I recognized in Mr. Nydahl’s words and actions. It is true, that you know much more of what you believe to know than I do. So because of my ignorance it is likely that I do not understand everything you are saying.

    But please also consider the possibility, that I do know more of what I believe to know than you do. So because of your ignorance it is likely that you do not understand everything I am saying.

    My trust in people who seem to follow ethical ideals was abused in a very devious manner by leading buddhists. I have no reason to believe such an abuse of trust would not occur again the very moment I would begin to uncritically trust again in anything which seems ethical correct at first sight. That’s why I said ‘I(!) would be careful’. I did not say ‘I demand that everyone has to be careful now’ (which would be ridiculous).

    I do not know about that we live in an enlightened world. But I do know that we live in a democratic world, in which I can not understand why me expressing my contrary viewpoints should have the meaning I was not able to discuss.

    As I said, I have absolutely no interest in a conflict at the personal level.

    KateS, on September 25, 2013 at 10:00 am said:

    ‘… the type of experiences we are talking about would concern energy manipulation … people still seem intent on belief in something metaphysical.’

    I once heard something like that we tend to see anything we have no explanation for as being mystical, magical or spiritual. Can you explain what such “energy manipulation” is and by what worldly means they are caused? It would be very helpful to know if for example situations with a suddenly or slowly increasing enhanced awareness, or unexplainable body sensations or the opening of the kundalini that Ms. Riepe experienced can be caused by some kind of electromagnetical mumbo jumbo device or something like that.

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  425. “people still seem intent on belief in something metaphysical.”

    Yes, Kate, like in Karma, Reincarnation and Nirwana.

    Hopefully you do not, Hegel would turn over in his grave.

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  426. Thank you, BackAtHome, for explaining your position again.

    I clearly see where we are totally different in our view and reception.

    “is the extent to which we were exposed to the distorting influence of Mr. Nydahl.”

    You did not understand anything of what I was saying and you are judging without listening. I said I am au fait with mystics since my childhood. You turned it to “you have that position because of the long influence of Nydahl.”.No, I do not. I know more than you because of the extend I was in. Listen to yourself, what you are saying here, you blame my position to be influenced by Nydahl. Unbelivable.

    “but remain to this day allergic to patterns equal or similar to this influence. When I recognize such a pattern in another person, including members of my family (real brother, father etc.), I get very reserved and questioning about what is said or done and what is the intention behind that.”

    May be it´s a to be thrown lifeline to exist in and I know where it comes from because I shared it for a while. I do not do it anymore, I trust. and be open again without giving up my position and my knowledge.

    “Coming from that point, it does not make too much of a difference to me whether you or KateS turn this discussion into a dharma presentation.”

    We life in a enlightened world where it is possible to discuss all. If you are not able to, just avoid it. I will not accept that someone makes the rules here for what is a presentation of Dharma thoughts or what is a discussion about.That makes a huge difference.

    It has to be clearly said as I did.

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  427. As I understand it, mystical manipulation is designed to deceive people into mistakenly attributing their experiences to spiritual causes when, in fact they are purely worldly.

    In the case of Tantric Buddhism, the type of experiences we are talking about would concern energy manipulation, but as I see it, this has very little to do with spirituality or anything “occult” – the reason being that within TB it is explained that this is a relative “power” – yet it seems that depite that, people still seem intent on belief in something metaphysical.

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  428. Thank you for the nice comment. But even in this regard our viewpoints are different. From what I am picking up, the main reason for our different viewpoints is the extent to which we were exposed to the distorting influence of Mr. Nydahl.

    I broke direct contact with this influence almost instantly (lucky me) but remain to this day allergic to patterns equal or similar to this influence. When I recognize such a pattern in another person, including members of my family (real brother, father etc.), I get very reserved and questioning about what is said or done and what is the intention behind that.

    I am not opposing you or any other member in this thread on a personal level, but I am seriously opposing patterns of Nydahl’s or in general tantric buddhism’s misleading world view and actions when they appear in comments by any member of this thread.

    Coming from that point, it does not make too much of a difference to me whether you or KateS turn this discussion into a dharma presentation. Which, to make the connection to this thread’s theme, is part of point 1 “Milieu control”.

    I hold out the other cheek unless someone continuously takes advantage of it for his own greed for power.

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  429. Marte-Micaela Riepe comments moved to Lamaism Discussion as they are about intra Christian conflicts and perspectives and we wish to retain the clear direction of this thread
    BackAtHome,

    we clearly have different positions within Christianity and that is the reason for our different points of view. ………………………

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  430. Isn’t this still refering to point 2 “Mystical manipulation”, which is about “manipulation of experiences” and “to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences”?

    We are currently discussing experiences which at least myself, Angie and Ms. Riepe (some of her experiences) understand as being forced on us without our consent or even against our express rejection.

    At this point in the discussion we now see quite a few examples of “… to reinterpret … scripture …”:

    1) Hegel for sure is not the original source of christian belief (the term “concept of god” shows that very clearly).

    2) Intentionally or not, it is suggested that the christian idea of breaking a circle of violence by not answering with violence is falsely reinterpreted as being comparable to the buddhist concept of selflessness. (Both are two completely different attitudes.)

    3) Intentionally or not, it is suggested that Christ was a mere prophet.

    4) Whether Christ had an ‘… acquisition of supernatural powers by psychic or magical means …’ (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhi) and whether the work of Christ were the same as vajrayanas concept of “Siddhis” may be a question of individual interpretation. At least the hindu meaning of “Siddhis” includes a lot of characteristics which are not reported about the work of Christ in the Gospels.

    In my point of view, the massive effort to reinterpret christian belief to make it compatible to buddhist belief and to redefine and thus alter christian practice has already entered the protestant church. Previously I called that the “virus” that “infected” the protestant church.

    Isn’t that very cultish and by that on-topic to this thread? Do not cults try to turn everyone into a believer of their doctrine?

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  431. Perhaps he could have his material reinstated if he sends it in?

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  432. I have caught up and there has a tendency to go off on tangents to this post. I will after this warning move this discussion to the Tantra discussion. Nothing wrong with discussing it just try to maintain thread discipline.

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  433. “in the Bilbe there a two conceptions of power”

    Kate, could be, but what means power in the context with an altered state of mind? If you look at the prophets in the Old Testament, they never were the holders of power but shells for the voice of God. Their line I am looking for and not the one of Salomon or David.

    Jesus of Nazareth was in the prophet´s tradition, even when he allegedly was an offspring of David and Jakcp, what obvisiously seemed to be important, although he was born as a poor child and concieved by the Holy Spirit in the faith of many christians.He acted and teached out of a prophet´s mind and power was just a seducment within it.

    That kind of power is called “Siddhis” within the tantric-tibetan Buddhism and does not mean the wordly power you are suggesting. And when I speak about abuse a state of mind I speak about use of the siddhis.

    In the self-conception of TB the wordly power and power of money , power of sex and power which is given by the followers and sponsors in all its entiry follow the enlightened state of mind. They have special rituals to support that . I will show an example later, a ritual of the Dakini Kurukulla.

    Buddha of course did not.

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  434. Angie, in the Bilbe there a two conceptions of power; the old testament tends towards a “positive” conception of victory in battle etc., whereas the new testament tends towards a “negative” idea of the power to endure loss.

    History has shown us both they are still competing, and that we still tend to give primacy to the first – a male conception of potency rather than the second, female one.

    It looks to me as if there is a similar conflict in Tibetan Buddhism, and that it occurs as I described earlier, when the true goal of Buddhism is lost to this “Hindu-style” grasping of worldly power.

    In other words, it is my own experience that these abuses of power are rendered impotent not by opposing with equal force, but instead by giving them nothing to grip onto.
    True selflessness will defeat selfish grasping every time.

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  435. I”t would seem that Lamaism/Tibetan Buddhism accepts this abuse of power as a means to empower themselves.”

    Yes, of course, Angie, I meant right that when I spoke about the abuse of a state of mind.

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  436. Marte-Micaela

    My comment: “Rightly or wrongly, I see them as the forbidden fruit spoken about in the bible. Rather than the sexual act being the sin it is how they use it with the intention of making themselves more powerful than God.”

    In reply you commented: “So a forbidden fruit is not the state of mind. It is the abusing of that state.”

    As I am now familiar with Lama/guru practices, it occurred to me that they, as mere mortals, partake of the fruit and use the sexual act to increase their power /energy; men who elevate themselves as Gods and no spiritual God above them.

    Yes, a person in a heightened state of mind is easily influenced into believing anything they are told and easily manipulated and there is also plenty of evidence of physical, mental and mind/spiritual abuse perpetrated on humanity for the purpose of the violator gaining power. It would seem that Lamaism/Tibetan Buddhism accepts this abuse of power as a means to empower themselves.The story makes more sense to me from this point of view.