Behind The Thangkas ~ Sogyal Rimpoche ~ The imbalance of power and abuse of spiritual authority

Behind The Thangkas

Dialogue Ireland has hosted a dossier which points to issues of sexual and inappropriate cultist behaviour involving women.

https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2009/04/07/briefing-document-on-sogyal-rinpoche/

 We have also become aware of extreme teaching methods which are applied in seminars. We publish this in the knowledge that some may hold different views. We always allow contrary views as our comment section shows. However, we go beyond and will allow an official response from Rigpa to be published without censorship. Also if any individual in the body of this text feels a need to respond we will publish this in full following editorial scrutiny.  Sexual assault, abuse, an imbalance of power and abuse of spiritual authority concerning Sogyal Rimpoche are all features of this article. Mike Garde Director Dialogue Ireland.

                    (Thangka – Tibetan sacred art)

It is a cloudy day in August 2008 in the Languedoc-Rousillon region of southern France. Hundreds of people dressed in their best party clothes line both sides of a narrow country road. Most of them hold a khata — a long white scarf, presented as a ceremonial offering to Tibetan dignitaries. A rainbow array of prayer flags flutter, and the breeze catches plumes of fragrant juniper smoke rising from pot-bellied stoves placed at intervals along the route.

A ripple of excitement runs through the crowd as a procession comes into view. As it approaches some people wave, others bow with hands clasped in the prayer gesture, others offer their khatas, holding them at arm’s length towards a small, elderly man wearing maroon monastic robes and a huge smile. Even at a distance he radiates charisma. He has acquired unique status on the world stage as the man who loves everyone  — and many people nowadays accept that the joy on his face originates from a genuinely open heart. As he passes, Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet, reaches out to touch members of his adoring fan club. The Dalai Lama strides alongside Carla Bruni Sarkozy at the head of a cluster of monks, security men and journalists, towards a multi-coloured, ornate portico. A monastic band strikes up. Monks in their red and yellow robes and ceremonial hats play shawms – oboe-like instruments that wail like the wind in a Himalayan storm. They lead the proceedings that set in motion the inauguration of the largest, most grandiose Tibetan temple in the developed world. Sheltered by the portico, Carla Sarkozy  stands apart from the crowd – tall and elegant in a dark couture dress. She too holds a khata. Another figure sidles up beside her. He is short, balding, obese and clothed in a floor-length mustard yellow robe – a chuba  — lay rather than monastic Tibetan attire. His manner is obsequious, he is bowed in deference but his face tells the phalanx of TV cameras, forest of microphones and those present in person that this is his finest hour. Here he is, Sogyal Lakar from a remote region of Tibet, introducing the Dalai Lama to the First Lady of France.

Sogyal is recognised as a tulku (re-incarnate lama)  and is known as Rinpoche, which means precious one in Tibetan. He is the second best known lama on the Tibetan landscape and he too is idolised by thousands of followers who belong to Rigpa, his organisation active in France with six centres and six study groups and in 24 countries around the world. Carla Sarkozy appears somewhat awe-struck. With a shy smile she offers her khata to the Dalai Lama. His big smile broadens even further as, according to Tibetan custom, he accepts the scarf and then returns it to the donor —  draping it tastefully around Carla’s neck. A day of elaborate ritual follows, with the Dalai Lama tasting salt, tossing flower petals and cutting multi coloured ribbons draped across the temple doors, before entering to perform the consecration ceremony. Once inside, more celebrities step out to meet the world’s A list holy man – French Foreign Minister Bernard  Kouchner, Rama Yade, Secretary of State for Human Rights and former Prime Minister Alain Juppe. As the Dalai Lama moves inside the enormous building decorated with extreme oriental flamboyance, other public figures are on tenterhooks for their brief moment of eye contact with His Holiness. A famous actress here, an author there, more politicians – and a cluster of clerics, including Claude Azema, the auxilliary Bishop of Montpelier. The name of the place is Lerab Ling, which means Sanctuary of Enlightened  Action.  Sogyal Rinpoche  chose this name in honour of Lerab Lingpa, a 19th century Tibetan Buddhist master Sogyal claims as his predecessor. So how did a 63 year old man in poor health, who left his native Tibet when he was a young child, and had only a basic education in India, come to be the head of a multi-national organisation with tentacles in five continents? How did he manage to raise 10 million Euros to build a huge temple in southern France? And then persuade the wife of the President to provide the media focus for the opening day?

Charisma, luck, chutzpah and a lawsuit

If you ask a selection of Sogyal’s many admirers about the qualities as a Buddhist teacher that have contributed to his success, two answers stand out: his charisma and his humour. Sogyal is an accomplished public performer– that is one factor. Another is that he is credited as the author of the all-time best selling Buddhist book The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, which has sold a million copies and been translated into 24 languages. More astringent observers of Sogyal’s trajectory into guru super stardom point in other directions: to his lucky streak, his timing, his chutzpah and his astute exploitation of zeitgeist. For example, thousands of people in the developed world were ready to embrace the exotic path to enlightenment offered by exiled Tibetan lamas and ready to address the taboos surrounding death and dying. But beneath the surface of Sogyal’s success story there are darker strands. His status as a Buddhist lama requires him to be an exemplar of two fundamental articles of faith: wisdom and compassion. Yet in 1994 an American woman known as Janice Doe sued Sogyal for sexual assault and battery. Ever since then, allegations around his private life, financial  affairs and credentials as a lama have surfaced from disillusioned former disciples – to the extent that they cast serious doubt on his status as a pre-eminent Buddhist teacher. Those in the know about the history of Rigpa make one firm assertion: that Sogyal could not have scaled the giddy heights without the help of his long-term right-hand man Patrick Gaffney.  Some former insiders, like the journalist Mary Finnigan, go further: “Patrick is the real brains behind Rigpa,” she says, “Sogyal is merely the public persona.” Patrick played an equal role with Sogyal during the Lerab Ling temple ceremony – highlighting his dominant position in the Rigpa hierarchy.

Career launch in London

Sogyal left India in the early 1970s.The official biography claims he studied comparative religion at Cambridge University, but when Mary Finnigan met him shortly after he first arrived in England, she recalls that he was resident at a sanatorium in Cambridge: “He was accompanying a member of the Sikkimese royal family while both of them were recovering from tuberculosis.” Sogyal’s Lakar family were well-connected, but impoverished since their flight into exile. According to several  former members of Rigpa, Sogyal’s mother sent her elder son to the west with specific instructions to make money. In the winter of 1973 Sogyal turned up in London, announcing that he wanted to set up a centre where teachings could be given by some of the great Tibetan meditating yogis. Around this time he met Patrick Gaffney and another faithful acolyte, Dominique Side. The latter was introduced to him by Mary Finnigan and a group of squatters occupying a house in the Kentish Town district of north London. In the early 1970s hippies were settling down back home after their oriental adventures and experiments with psychedelic drugs. Most of them acknowledged their interest in altered states of consciousness, but realised it was time to stop using powerful chemicals. They had encountered exiled Tibetan lamas in India and Nepal and were eager to pursue their fascination with Tibet’s Tantric Buddhism known as the Vajrayana – a contemplative schema that offers the promise of authentic spiritual experience, leading to profound insights and even enlightenment in one lifetime. At the time there was only one Tibetan lama, Chime Youngdon Rinpoche, giving teachings in London. Apart from the dauntingly orthodox Buddhist Society, there was no place anywhere in London where an ambitious young lama could set up his stall, in order to meet the demand for Tibetan Buddhism. That is until the squatters heard about a large empty house in Chatsworth Road, Kilburn, owned by The London Borough of Brent. Mary Finnigan was a member of a group of about 10 squatters who broke into the house and claimed it in the name of the Nyingma tradition of Tibetan Buddhism.   According to Mary Finnigan, Sogyal already had a reputation as a playboy with a penchant for pretty girls when he arrived in London. It soon became clear to his core group of squatters, hippies and young professional people that their new-found guru had a voracious sexual appetite. Mary recalls that he lived for a while with Dominique Side – “she was devastated when she found out he was not monogamous” – but soon moved into his own room in Chatsworth Road. “At this point” says Mary, “he switched into top gear and persuaded several  senior lamas to perform ceremonies and give teachings in what they probably did not know was an illegally occupied building.” The response exceeded all expectations, with crowds turning up to events that were publicised at short notice by word of mouth. During the early days in London, Sogyal acted mostly as a translator for the older generation of yogi-lamas who fled from Tibet following the Chinese takeover in 1959. These included the head of the Nyingma order, the late Dudjom Rinpoche – a lama of legendary repute held in the highest regard by Tibetans and westerners alike. Sogyal dedicated his new centre to Dudjom, who named it Orgyen Choling.

Trungpa Rinpoche and the rock star lifestyle

The squat lasted only a few months. At first Sogyal was “one of the boys”, but took off for a while to visit Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, who pioneered Tibetan Buddhism in the USA. Trungpa was a formidably intelligent iconoclast who acquired a nationwide following, with a formula that shook Buddhist America to the core and generated enthusiasm wherever he alighted. In contrast to the more familiar austerities of Zen Buddhism, Trungpa offered authentic Tibetan theory and practice in tandem with a sybaritic lifestyle.  An early American seeker, Victoria Barlow, recalls meeting Sogyal in Boulder, Colorado in 1976: “Sogyal was enthralled by Trungpa’s sexual conquests,” she says, “he told me outright that he wanted what Trungpa had and aimed to achieve a rock star lifestyle.” Sogyal returned to London in a radically altered state of mind – berating his students for their lack of worldly ambition and demanding to be treated like a “precious one”. Around this time Sogyal met up with Ngakpa Chogyam, a Englishman who later became a Buddhist teacher. “At first he was quite friendly”, says Chogyam, “but later he let me know that he was a distinctly superior being and that I was no longer to address him as Sogyal.” Around this time Sogyal launched into his habit of publicly humiliating his close followers – berating for them for even minor errors in front of a roomful of people. Patrick Gaffney is the only one to be spared these ordeals. He was still doing it in 2011. A woman (Lalatee) who attended a retreat at  Dzogchen Beara, the Rigpa centre in Ireland, was profoundly shocked by Sogyal’s behaviour: “I experienced what at best could be termed disrespect, at worst abuse of his colleagues and disciples. He was regularly late and often over-ran the sessions by several hours. He was insulting to the Irish people, about his assistants and to individual course participants. The last straw for me was when he called a senior assistant to come to the dais. She’s a respected professional in her 60s doing amazing work with the bereaved and the dying. She was forced to kneel beside Sogyal, while he embraced her closely and put his hand on her chest. I could see that she was embarrassed and uncomfortable. Sogyal proceeded to stroke her face, looking deeply into her eyes. When she pulled back slightly, he turned to the 250 people present and said ‘this is none of your business, turn away’. So 250 people twisted round in their seats and looked away. If that is not crowd manipulation and abuse, I don’t know what is. At the very least it shows complete disregard for western social mores and ethical behaviour.”

Also in 2011 another woman (Myra) attended a Rigpa retreat at Myall Lakes in Australia. “Sogyal seemed arrogant and uncaring. He was habitually an hour or more late and after he turned up would spend another hour and half criticising his older students. Meanwhile, several hundred people who had already waited a long time had to witness this, not understanding what was going on. Many of them were new to Rigpa. Sogyal then gave his senior students orders about how he wanted the presentation to be prepared for the next day. I know they sometimes stayed up all night working on a new version, but next day when Sogyal arrived everything would be all wrong again and there would be another diatribe.” Myra asked older students about Sogyal’s behaviour: “One explanation given to justify it was that he aims to shock people out of their habitual thinking – that he’s a Vajra Master and doesn’t conform to the same samsaric standards as we do. I couldn’t help thinking that if he’s really a Vajra Master why does he need to follow a precise order of events? Why are the prepared readings and video excerpts so important? I really think there’s something else going on.” Back in the 1970s, the man who now insisted on being called Rinpoche exhorted his flock to focus their attention on attracting money and on improving the style, content and comfort levels of the Chatsworth Road house.  “He was a slave driver”, says one squatter, Jack, “he had us working flat out, restoring the house, building a shrine, putting up shelves and so on – while he sat around directing operations.”   People like businessman Jean Lanoe involved in the construction of the Lerab Ling temple would affirm that in this respect also, Sogyal has not changed.

Sex conquests and doubts  

Neither it seems, has his insatiable appetite for sexual conquests. From  Chatsworth Road, Orgyen Choling moved into short life premises in Princess Road, Kilburn. Sogyal occupied the top floor, members of his band of wannabe Buddhist yogis lived in other rooms, while the ground floor was transformed into a shrine room.  One resident  recalled the steady stream of young women summoned  to the guru’s abode for “private teachings.” “Some of them would stay for a while and leave quietly, but others would flounce out shouting loud protests and slamming doors.”

People who have now left Sogyal’s entourage speak about a “sense of pollution” — how the succession of females in and out of the guru’s bedroom made them feel ill at ease. No-one at this time identified Sogyal’s behaviour as a personality disorder, but more recently health professionals have stated that he is a sex addict – an obsession as powerful as drugs, alcohol and gambling. There was also a dawning awareness within Sogyal’s community that he was not up to scratch as a Buddhist teacher. A very reticent Englishman was an early Buddhist scholar who visited the Himalayan regions in the 1950s, searching for texts on an arcane aspect of Tibetan teachings known as Dzogchen. Sogyal proclaims himself as a Dzogchen master – but his followers noticed he played “carrot and donkey” with them – holding out the promise of genuine instructions, but never actually delivering. The reticent Englishman confirmed their suspicions:

“Apart from some stuff he picked up from his uncle Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro, he knows very little and what he does know is not Dzogchen.” Ngakpa Chogyam also became aware of gaps in Sogyal’s knowledge: “He asked me a lot of questions about Dzogchen”, he says, “and I was surprised by the way he’d enquire – almost, I thought at the time, as if he didn’t know the answers. I ended up talking a lot when we were alone together – but it occurred to me later that he never asked questions like this when anyone else was around.” Later in his career, when Sogyal was an established lama, he was sitting with several Rinpoches listening to teachings by the Dalai Lama. One of the Rinpoches wrote a note in Tibetan and passed it round the group. According to a Tibetan Buddhist scholar who heard about this from one of the lamas involved “It was obvious to all of them that Sogyal could not read it.”  In 1979 the Dzogchen master Choegyal Namkhai Norbu taught for the first time in London and members of Sogyal’s group who attended realised they were experiencing the genuine article. There was a mass exodus from Orgyen Choling, but within weeks the defectors were replaced by a new intake. The devotees who remained faithful include Patrick Gaffney and Dominique Side.

Breaking the bond and the birth of Rigpa

Around this time Sogyal made his first sortie into France – a move which set in motion a chain of events that led to the establishment of Rigpa as a multi-national organisation. Disciples of the late Dudjom Rinpoche had coalesced into a small group in Paris. Sogyal pitched up there and was invited to teach. However, it transpired that the Dudjom people were considerably less tolerant of his playboy lifestyle than his followers in London. Before long they asked Sogyal to leave, but by the time they did this he had acquired a taste for the pleasures of life in France. It must have been tedious for him to return to hippiedom in a dilapidated house in an unfashionable area of London, after spending time with the Parisian bourgeoisie. It seems likely that reports on Sogyal’s womanising and expensive eating habits reached Dudjom Rinpoche’s ears from France – because shortly after he was kicked out of the Paris centre, Dudjom wrote to Sogyal requesting him to stop teaching for a while and return to India “to ripen his practice”. Residents at Orgyen Choling recall little hesitation on the part of their teacher: “He refused point blank to obey the head of his order”, says one of them (Mark)  “ quite the opposite in fact. He removed his group from the Dudjom mandala and changed its name to Rigpa, with him in charge and accountable to no-one.” The surge of enthusiasm for Tibetan Buddhism continued to accelerate, but in the late 1970s and early 80s there were still very few lamas actively at work in the big cities of the western world. News of Sogyal’s activities — and that he attracted some of the legendary elders like Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche — spread like wildfire. It soon became apparent that the room at Princess Road was too small to accommodate the ever increasing numbers turning up for teachings.  A cash donation from a famous actor enabled Rigpa to obtain a lease on premises in Camden Town. They stayed there for several years until they outgrew this space too. Their final move in London was to their present home on Caledonian Road, in Islington. This is an extensive property with a very large, if somewhat claustrophobic basement shrine room.

Conquering America

The 1980s was a period of phenomenal expansion in the number of people seeking instruction in Tibetan Buddhism – especially in America. As news of the lush lifestyles enjoyed by lamas in the developed world spread to the austere monastic institutions in India and Nepal, more and more of them packed their bags and flew off to fulfil the demand.    It soon became clear that not only would they live in luxury, but also that teaching Vajrayana Buddhism represented a major source of income for the Tibetan diaspora.  Sogyal set his sights on California.

Victoria Barlow encountered Sogyal on his first visit to the West Coast.  According to Victoria, he aired views which are diametrically opposed to his present role as a champion of the Dalai Lama, who belongs to the monastic Gelug school. Sogyal is a Nyingmapa– an older, largely non-celibate tradition.  “Sogyal loathed the Gelugpas and the DL,“ she says, “ I heard him in Berkeley being a staggering sectarian hater — he expressed real rage to all who would listen, trashing the Dalai Lama.”  Despite his politically incorrect outbursts, Sogyal’s style went down well with Californian audiences. This probably had something to do with the fact that Tibetan Buddhism was virgin territory for most Americans, so the lack of substance in his teachings was not immediately apparent.

His appeal lay in the  Shangri-la myths and legends surrounding all things Tibetan. Sogyal’s American audiences had few points of reference to give focus to their enthusiasm, and like many people in many countries, they were hungry for what seemed to them to be authentic access to an ancient esoteric tradition.  One of the Californians impressed by Sogyal was Christine Longaker, who at that time was director of the Hospice of Santa Cruz County in the San Francisco Bay area. This smart woman made a connection between Tibetan texts dealing with death and the after-death state – and her work in palliative care for the dying.  She shared her insights with Sogyal – who swiftly realised that this could turn out to be his passport to fame and fortune.  He was right. From the mid 1980s onwards Sogyal set his acolytes the task of researching information on western attitudes to death and dying – and linking these with The Tibetan Book of the Dead. This text is attributed to Padmasambhava, an 8th century yogi credited as the founding father of Buddhism in Tibet. Originally translated into English in 1927,  it was essential reading for hippies and well-thumbed copies were passed around the  traveller communities in India. Some found their way into San Francisco bookshops.

Once he had his research data, Sogyal started lecturing on Spiritual Care for the Dying — challenging deeply entrenched taboos and attracting large audiences, including many people experiencing various stages of terminal illness and grieving. It is beyond doubt that within a western cultural context, Sogyal was delivering a seismic shift. It was pioneered by the psychiatrist Elizabeth Kubler Ross, but the addition of Sogyal’s Tibetan Buddhist perspective was a radical new formula – which suggested that rather than a source of fear, death can be treated as source of inspiration.

The book that made a million

The theories and practices expounded in Sogyal’s lectures were collated into his version of the Padmasambhava treatise, but with a contemporary twist – living in tandem with dying – highlighting the two states as mirror images of each other. When The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying was published in 1992, it ticked every box on Sogyal’s wish list. Almost overnight he became an international celebrity and to top it all, accepted an invitation from Bernardo Bertolucci to star in his movie Little Buddha. Some time later, worldwide sales turned him into a personal millionaire.  But there are questions around the authorship of the TBOLD. Rumours that Sogyal did not write the book have been circulating on the internet for years. When approached for comment, the author, academic and mystic Andrew Harvey gave an inconclusive response: “Sogyal participated totally in every level of the creation of the book and as the representative of his tradition was the indispensable transmitter of its wisdom. The process was a totally mutual collaboration in which Sogyal gave everything and had the final word on every word. It is a very hard process to describe. Any suggestion that Sogyal did not write this book is -I think, absurd and dishonouring of his genius and passion. Both Patrick and I worked tirelessly and I hope, selflessly to honour Sogyal’s brilliance and the wisdom of the tradition. And the book could not exist without the transcripts of Sogyal’s talks that were it’s foundation.” The ubiquitous Patrick Gaffney and Andrew Harvey are credited as editors – but Harvey’s words do not confirm Sogyal as the author. Grant, a former Rigpa member, recalls spending time with Harvey “when he was writing the book”. Grant adds: “Could anyone who knows Sogyal imagine him being able to quote the German mystical poet Rainer Maria Rilke? Or the Sufi sage Jalaluddin Rumi? He simply doesn’t have that level of education.” Andrew Harvey does – and comparisons between The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying and Harvey’s own books reveal striking similarities in tone, structure and language. According to a well known American Buddhist teacher: “Andrew Harvey was very upset at not being credited as co-author.”  The journalist Mary Finnigan is also sceptical: “When Sogyal was living in London it became obvious that he is barely literate,” she says, “he never read anything except comic books, never wrote letters and spent most of his free time watching television.”

Buddhist teacher Ngakpa Chogyam also has doubts:

“The book was cobbled together from more than a decade of Sogyal’s teachings,” he says, “I worked for a while on transcribing the tapes. There were a fair few mistakes which I corrected as I went along – particularly about  Dzogchen and precise definitions of Buddhist doctrine.”

Enter Dierdre Smith

In June 1993, less than a year after the publication of the TBOLD, a young and beautiful woman in a state of acute distress over the death of her father went to a Rigpa retreat in Connecticut, USA.  After one of Sogyal’s lectures she sent him a written question: “How can I help my father now that he’s dead?”

Sogyal’s response was to invite her to his room. The woman, Dierdre Smith, says she was ‘completely vulnerable’.” I might as well have had a notice round my neck saying Abuse Me!” She wept as she recounted the circumstances of her father’s death from a drug overdose. “He asked me to massage him — I was in awe of him as the important guru, so I did as he wished. Then he told me he was my personal teacher and was going to help me. I was very excited about this and called my husband to tell him that everything was going to be OK. “Sogyal asked me to come back the following day, with a picture of myself and of my father. It was all very paternal and he kept saying I should trust him.” “It was about 10.30 at night when I arrived. He took his clothes off and got into bed. I was embarrassed and didn’t know where to look – but he said I should feel safe because we were in a shrine. The room was lit with candles and there were pictures of Buddhas all around.”

A long seduction followed, that lasted into the small hours. The reluctant, grief-stricken Dierdre protested that she did not want to cheat on her husband — but Sogyal persisted, insisting that having sex with him would benefit her father’s karma: “He ground me down”, she says, “it was the same thing over and over – Do you love me? Do you trust me? It must have gone on for about six hours. Eventually I was exhausted and gave up resisting. The whole thing revolved around surrender to him and I was scared of losing the opportunity to heal my family.” P11.  Dierdre was told by Rigpa devotees that if you have negative feelings, you destroy your relationship with the guru. With hindsight, she sees this as a cultist manoeuvre designed to smother dissent, but at the time she did not question this and other injunctions – including one from Sogyal swearing her to secrecy about the seduction. Sogyal insisted that he loved her, wanted to take care of her and that she should see him as her family. He phoned her every day until they met again six months later. Dierdre flew to France at her own expense, expecting to be a normal student. Instead, she was isolated in a separate house and told not to talk to anyone: “I only left the house to go to the teachings, where I saw 500 people prostrating themselves to the lama. The rest of the time I listened to him on tape, saying things like ‘pray to me, see me as the Buddha, love me, trust me, be obedient to me’ “ For several months Dierdre put her everyday life on hold and travelled with Sogyal as his servant, sex partner and arm candy. She recounts how the smile on Sogyal’s face and the unctuous charm of his of his public presentation vanished the moment they were hidden from view: “There must have been about 10 women in his inner circle,” she says, and it was our job to attend to his every need. We bathed him, dressed him, cooked for him, carried his suitcases, ironed his clothes and were available for sex. He was a tyrant. Nothing we did was ever good enough. He went into screaming rages and beat us. If I tried to question the way he treated us, he became angry. The only way to avoid this was to stay silent and submissive.” According to former Rigpa insiders, Sogyal’s team of regular sex partner-attendants were the core group of a sub-sect of Rigpa known as Lama Care. This was set up specifically to make sure that women were available for sex with Sogyal wherever he travelled. In common with other women who have spoken about their experiences with Sogyal, Dierdre recounts how she hardly ever slept, had no time to eat properly and lost 15 pounds during the first two weeks of her time with him. “I looked pretty sickly”, she recalls. Yet despite the brainwashing and  the abuse, the women in Sogyal’s harem regarded themselves as highly privileged: “They kept on saying how lucky we were to be close to the guru, how we had special teachings and how much he loved us.” Indoctrination into the inner circle is designed as a life sentence. A young, vulnerable woman is programmed to accept Sogyal’s god-like status and to be compliant with his wishes and whims, slave-like in her willingness to accept a punishing workload and available for sex on demand. She is separated from her family and friends, discouraged from contact with the outside world and persuaded to see Rigpa as her family, with Sogyal (confusingly as father-lover)  in absolute power and control. In the majority of cases, it works. By the time these women realise they are being abused and exploited and are deeply embedded in a coercive cult, it is too late for them to extricate themselves. Their investment is total and their chances of making lives for themselves beyond Rigpa have dwindled into non-existence. But in some instances, Sogyal’s choices backfired on him. Back in 1994, it slowly dawned on Dierdre that she was being exploited. “At first”, she says, “I was willing to give up everything for the promise of healing my family, saving the world and being useful, but as these illusions started to melt away I realised I had caused a lot of harm – I’d made myself sick and I’d hurt my husband.” During her last retreat with Sogyal, Dierdre found out about the scandals surrounding Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche and his regent Osel Tendzin (Thomas Rich), who infected several people with HIV. “I was terrified I’d given my husband HIV” she says, “so I told Sogyal I wanted to leave.” He was very angry, probably because I knew too much about his promiscuity and his lies. I remember sitting on his bed with him and he shouted at me ‘get these crazy ideas out of your head’ and at the same time he was hitting me hard on the head, one side and then the other.” So what finally drove Dierdre away? “Mostly it was the beatings and because Sogyal kept on telling me I was a burden to him. It was bewildering, because at the same time he tried to persuade me to stay – saying that by serving him I was serving the world. But there he was with all these people attending to everything he demanded and there was my husband who was alone and ill at the time, begging me not to leave him.”

Regardless of Sogyal’s threats (including aeons in the hell realms), protestations and persuasions Dierdre left. But after returning to her long-suffering husband, she discovered that leaving was not as easy as physically walking out. Like many others who detach themselves from abusive relationships and coercive cults, she found herself dealing with a psycho-emotional hangover. By this time a lot less naïve than she was when she first encountered Sogyal, Dierdre sought help from several counsellors, including a strong-minded Californian Zen teacher who had herself been a victim of a sexually abusive guru. “It is harmful to both student and teacher”, the teacher says, “because they end up slipping into a fantasy realm, rather than cultivating awareness of the Buddhist path. Americans are more sophisticated now — we know about the long term damage inherent in relationships where there is a power imbalance.”

The lawsuit

Around the same time, one of Sogyal’s victims who became known as Janice Doe, consulted a San Francisco lawyer and on 2 November 1994 a suit was filed in The Superior Court of California seeking reparations from Sogyal Rinpoche aka Sogyal Lakar and The Spiritual Care for Living and Dying Network for assault and battery, infliction of emotional distress and breach of fiduciary duty. The suit also charged that Sogyal had seduced many other female students for his own sexual gratification by preying on their vulnerability. Three days later the story broke in several west coast newspapers, following a report by an agency journalist, Don Lattin, which included comment by Victoria Barlow: “I went to an apartment to see a highly esteemed lama to discuss religion”, she said, “he opened the door without a shirt on and with a can of beer in his hand.” Once they were on the sofa, Barlow continued, “Sogyal lunged at me with sloppy kisses and groping. I thought I should take it as a compliment so I surrendered to him – but it had a horrible effect on me and caused a lot of depression.”  News of the lawsuit spread like wildfire across the Tibetan Buddhist grapevine. At first the Rigpa hierarchy appeared to be caught like rabbits in headlights – frozen and incapable of anything other than whimpers of denial. Later, when the shock waves had subsided, a letter was despatched to some students, acknowledging the existence of the lawsuit and containing a feeble attempt at damage limitation: “….allegations are only allegations. As far as we know they have no foundation”. Journalists who requested interviews with Sogyal were told he was “in retreat”. In January 1995 a feature about the lawsuit by Mary Finnigan appeared in the British national daily newspaper The Guardian. A few weeks later a broadcast version of the story, also by Mary Finnigan, ran on BBC Radio 4’s Sunday programme. Sogyal was scheduled to lead Rigpa’s annual UK Easter retreat, booked to happen at Harrow School, but someone at Harrow heard the BBC item and promptly cancelled the booking. “Rigpa was stuck with more than a hundred people and nowhere to go” says one of Sogyal’s organisers at the time. “All we could do was cram them into the shrine room in London.” In February 1995 the UK’s Telegraph Magazine featured a cover story on the Sogyal lawsuit by the journalist and author Mick Brown. In it, two English women spoke about their sexual encounters with Sogyal: P14 “Its a relationship that you haven’t chosen, agreed to or discussed”, said one woman, “Because he was my spiritual teacher I trusted that whatever he asked was in my best interests….by sleeping with the teacher you get a closeness to him which everyone is hankering after….but in fact it caused me a lot of pain that I wasn’t able to dissolve.” Another spoke about her distress at discovering that Sogyal was having sex with three other students, shortly after he initiated a relationship with her: “I came to the conclusion that Sogyal Rinpoche has used the teachings to attempt to keep me in a sexual relationship with him –one that I did not want to be in.” In common with other former Sogyal consorts, this woman “recognised that I was emotionally wounded and that my self-esteem was low, and that I no longer trusted myself or the spiritual path I had chosen.”   According to one former Rigpa insider, “An unsavoury witch hunt was launched to find out the identity of the women who spoke to Mick Brown.”  In a unique manifestation of his disapproval, The Dalai Lama withdrew from participation in a Living and Dying Conference scheduled by Rigpa to take place in California. The conference was cancelled. Sogyal also had to cancel an appearance at a prestigious event in New York, the Art of Dying conference. This time his excuse was “severe flu”. The glorification of Sogyal suffered a serious setback and in order to silence Janice Doe, Rigpa was forced to part with a large sum of money.          Just how much money was involved in the out-of-court settlement is a closely guarded secret, but it is alleged to run into millions of dollars.

After the lawsuit

It took about two years – and a huge workload for Patrick Gaffney and other members of the Rigpa inner circle — to re-establish Sogyal as a globe trotting guru. “People left in droves” says one former Rigpa devotee. “I remember noticing there was no-one around who had been there when I first got involved, except for Patrick and Dominique Side.” Around this time Mary Finnigan interviewed the Dalai Lama about the Sogyal lawsuit. “He was very clear about the issue of sexual relations between teachers and disciples”, she says “he condemned it as unacceptable and told me he had advised Sogyal to settle down and ‘take a lawful wife’. “ P15  Sogyal’s response to this was to have an affair with an American woman called Mary-Anne, who became pregnant and gave birth to Sogyal’s son Yeshe.  Asked if he would marry Mary-Anne he is said to have replied “that would be a step too far.” Even though by this time Sogyal had been placing the Dalai Lama at the top of his totem for many years, clearly he was not impressed by advice from the boss on his private life. “It was window dressing” says one former Sogyal dakini, “the Dalai Lama blessed the relationship, but Sogyal was never monogamous. One of his other women – Alison — saw herself as the ‘wife’ and she would not have allowed him to stop having sex with her.”

There is no doubt that the lawsuit made the Tibetan Buddhist community in the developed world take stock of its situation. Even in 1993, before the lawsuit, a group of western Buddhist teachers held a conference with the Dalai Lama. The statement the emerged from it included these words “… each student must be encouraged to take responsible measures to confront teachers with unethical aspects of their conduct. If the teacher shows no sign of reform, students should not hesitate to publicise any unethical behaviour of which there is irrefutable evidence. This should be done irrespective of other beneficial aspects of his or her work and of one’s spiritual commitment to that teacher. It should also be made clear in any publicity that such conduct is not in conformity with Buddhist teachings. No matter what level of spiritual attainment a teacher has, or claims to have reached, no person can stand above the norms of ethical conduct.” Although the Dalai Lama told the meeting that sexual misbehaviour should be publicised and errant teachers made to feel “regretful and embarrassed”, significantly in the light of subsequent developments, he declined to endorse the statement. As the reinvention of Sogyal’s credibility gathered momentum, leaks from within Rigpa indicated that he had no intention of changing his ways. Quite the contrary in fact, because in 1996 western Buddhist teachers met for the third time with the Dalai Lama and to the dismay of most of them, Sogyal was a high profile presence at the conference, holding forth vehemently about the perils of teaching Vajrayana without ‘authenticity, credentials and training’. “His chutzpah was breathtaking” says the American teacher Yvonne Rand. “We could hardly believe what we were experiencing. It was only our respect for the Dalai Lama that stopped several of us from walking out.”  When asked why Sogyal was allowed to take part, the Dalai Lama’s private office came up with the lame excuse that they had to let all lamas know about the conference so they could attend if they wished. ble standards perpetrated by the Tibetan diaspora headquarters in Dharamsala are becoming increasingly obvious to observers of Tibet, its religion and culture. At the turn of the 21st century the Dalai Lama had probably received hundreds of letters complaining about sexual and financial misbehaviour by Sogyal and other exiled lamas. While some letters are acknowledged with anodyne expressions of regret, to date there has been no action on the part of the exiled Tibetan authorities to deal effectively with the alleged offenders. Apart from withdrawing from the Living and Dying Conference, the Dalai Lama has never publicly criticised individual lamas.  When asked by Mary Finnigan why Sogyal is usually a guest speaker at events with the Dalai Lama like the Kalachakra Initiation,Chhimed Rigdzin, an official in the Dalai Lama’s private office, responded “we don’t invite him”. Mary Finnigan pointed out that they don’t refuse him either.

Fast forward to 2006

Air France pilot Gerard Dubois was coming to the end of his career as a 747 captain. Since the year 2000 Gerard ran his professional and spiritual lives in tandem – off duty he spent his time as a serious, bordering-on-fanatical student with Sogyal Rinpoche. The extent of his commitment is illustrated by the fact that it spilled over into air time — he accomplished the gruelling Tibetan Buddhist preliminary practice known as the ngondro by using his rest periods during long distance flights to complete 108 thousand full body prostrations in the crew space behind the flight deck. Gerard worked his way through the Rigpa hierarchy to the point where he became a dharma teacher himself, alongside other members of the French elite, including Olivier Raurich, Phillipe Cornu and the late Francois Calmes. “I was looking for answers”, he says, “trying to find a way to make my mind free and open. I have to admit that I was hypnotised by Sogyal for six years. As I became more involved, I distanced myself from my family and friends and devoted myself totally to Rigpa – with my time, energy and money. As a result, I became completely anti-social, turned in on myself and one-track minded” Gerard points out that following the Rigpa path is extremely expensive: “You have to buy ritual objects and constantly update study material. You pay for courses, study days, statues, food offerings for the temple – the list is endless. You have to sponsor people who can’t afford retreats and for those who can, the price is exorbitant. They never stop asking for money – and its done with subtle persuasion – pretty speeches scripted specifically to make you put your hand in your pocket.” Other former Rigpa insiders confirm that there is relentless pressure to donate money. According to one of them: “I even heard Sogyal say to one man ‘just shut up and give me your money’ “.

Dakini Janine

The person who was probably most affected by Gerard’s obsession with Rigpa is his daughter Janine. Aged 22 in 2000 and outstandingly beautiful, she was already feeling parentally deprived because of Gerard’s professional absences. Determined to take every opportunity to be close to him, Janine started attending Sogyal’s teachings with her father – usually falling asleep against his back. Inevitably Sogyal’s lasciviously roving eye alighted on Janine and in due course she was lured into the brainwashing process that leads to his bedroom. In 2009 Janine spoke at length about her experiences with Sogyal in a series of recorded interviews. The way she was treated is identical in most respects to what happened to Dierdre Smith. “We were at a retreat in Germany. He sent for me during his rest period and asked me to massage his hands and feet,” she says.” Afterwards he gave me his   schedule and his phone numbers – and almost immediately I was invited to join him for a holiday in Australia. This seemed like a nice thing to do so I said yes. “I was met in Sydney by a wealthy family who were obviously under orders to look after me – and I was treated like a princess. They have a fabulous house where I was given a room and they arranged everything I wanted – yoga classes, shopping etc”.

Did Janine query this – and wonder why it was happening? “Not really”, she says, “I assumed Sogyal was being paternal in an Asian way. But I still hadn’t seen him. Then suddenly, in the middle of the night, he decided it was time to go to the beach.” A convoy of cars set off. Janine found herself crammed into one of them with five other people, including Sogyal: “I didn’t get a good impression” she says, “he virtually ignored me, which was not at all the Asian papa way – I think this was the moment when he started to manipulate my feelings.” The time at the beach coincided with St Valentine’s day. Janine was ordered to wear a best dress and turn up at Sogyal’s house for dinner. At this moment she realised the whole set up was somewhat bizarre:

“There was Sogyal surrounded by five or six young pretty girls and there were no other men,” she says. “it was quite fun actually, we had nice drinks and we danced for him. Then at a certain point he asked me to go upstairs with him and massage his head. I made some sort of smart reply and he became angry. He said I was too proud and he would have to break my pride.” A few months later Janine got a phone call asking her if she would like to take part in a special training. “I accepted because it seemed to clarify my relationship with him. It turned out that the people involved were all women. We were put to work in the “lama kitchen.”  We called it hell, because it was an underground bunker – a horrible place. A Swiss woman (Renata) was in charge of us and the first three weeks were pure slavery – we worked non-stop doing the cleaning. “We never saw Sogyal, but they gave us documents listing all the instructions he has given about caring for him around the world. There was nothing about Buddhism, but we were told the whole process was a teaching.

“They made us work so hard we didn’t have time for proper meals. We had to grab food  and eat standing up. We were constantly being told to run here or fetch this in a haphazard way – because basically Sogyal is not very organised. He says he wants something and you have 50 people panicking to get it in five minutes.” As Janine’s induction into the inner circle unfolded, she was assigned work inside Sogyal’s compound at Lerab Ling – two chalets and a garden surrounded by a high fence. The next stage involved being Sogyal’s personal servant – bringing his food and looking after him in minute detail – in the same manner described by Dierdre Smith.

“He made me the only person to interact with the other people. By this time I was sleeping on the floor in his room…every time he had a thought, I would write it down and communicate it. I had control of the phones and the walkie talkies.” Sogyal is pampered like a medieval monarch – with a clique of women trained to respond to his slightest whim – day and night, 24/7. He is never alone and never lifts a finger to do anything for himself. After grooming her at record speed (other girls complained she had been fast tracked out of ‘hell’s kitchen’), Sogyal pounced on Janine for the first time at a high stress moment: “We had arranged to go to dinner at a restaurant to celebrate one of the other girls’ (Minou) birthday. Whenever Sogyal does something like this it is a major operation, involving anything up to 20 people. We have to send an advance party to the restaurant to make sure everything is exactly how he wants it, we have to polish up the big cars, pack his bags, wash him, dress him, collect his pillows, tissues and so on.

I was at the centre of the storm, co-ordinating the various strands and at that time I had had only about three hours sleep a night for the past month.” When everything was ready and the people were waiting to leave, Sogyal and   Janine were alone in his chalet: “He ordered me to take my clothes off. I thought it was another test, so I did as I was told. He told me to get onto the bed and we had sex. As this was happening he said ‘look into my eyes, this is the moment you connect with your master.’  There were no preliminaries, he did not use a condom, my pleasure was not in the picture and it was all over in about three minutes. Afterwards he made me swear to keep it a secret, even from the other girls, and said if I did not keep the samaya it would be very bad for my karma and for the karma of my family.

“It happened again of course, especially at times of stress – before a teaching for example he has to have his fix. Sometimes it was every day, sometimes less often depending on how many girls he was into, or what was happening. He is very selfish —  he never asks what you would like, it’s always him giving  orders. Sometimes there is some petting afterwards and he reminds you how lucky you are. Its not comfortable being in the same bed with Sogyal because he’s an anxious character and he doesn’t sleep well. He keeps waking up and wanting things, medicines or food and so on. “I blanked out my feelings for a while, but then I became very troubled, which was extremely difficult because I’d been sworn to secrecy and couldn’t talk about it with anyone. Things started to go wrong with my body. My periods stopped. I was in shock. I had to sneak out of Lerab Ling to do the test because I was scared I was pregnant.

“A young lama married to an American woman came to teach at Lerab Ling. He was by himself in the courtyard and I really needed to talk to someone because I knew something was really wrong. So I decided to talk to this lama, hoping he would explain it for me. I asked him ‘what’s a consort?’ He looked at me and he knew exactly what I was talking about. I burst into tears and that bastard said ‘if you are the consort of a master you are very lucky’ and that was it. That’s all he said.”

Dakinis who were in the harem (Alison, Anna, Minou, Nee, Lillie, Jackie, Renata, Lorraine) before Janine’s arrival gradually came to accept her as a team member. Eventually they announced that she should join them in an orgy. Janine was not keen. The other women pressurised her, insisting that they had to do whatever ‘Rinpoche’ wanted: “They were terrified of being beaten” says Janine. “During the time I was with him continuously, one of us would be beaten every day – because you forgot something or did something wrong. For one girl it was because the way she walked was too proud. I got a little less than the others – some would get a serious, really bad beating. He got irritated with me because when I did something wrong I would hand him something to hit me with and that would  spoil the fun.”

 Behind the thangkas

Janine recalls that setting up the space for an orgy involved taking down the thangkas from the chalet walls to reveal girlie pictures concealed behind them. A meeting took place during the summer of 2009, between Janine and a former Sogyal girlfriend Flora Sinclair — who was with him for a while during the 1980s. During this encounter, both of them recalled their problems with Sexually Transmitted Infections:

“He gave me a yellow bottle of disinfectant and told me to wash with it after we had sex”, says Flora. “I knew of four other women who were sleeping with him at the time – then one day I saw a different woman coming out of his room carrying a yellow bottle” Janine said that all the girls during her sojourn in the harem were constantly having to deal with STIs: “He never uses condoms”, she says, “my gynaecological record during that time was a disaster zone.” Ask Janine how she dealt with her situation and she says the only way she could cope was to close down into denial: “I didn’t think about it – I have a capacity to leave my body – I’m just not there”, she says, “but I felt so ashamed because I allowed it to happen. We were constantly humiliated. I was the only one who did not have to ask him for money and was not obliged to wear Barbie Doll clothes that he paid for.  “One of the most humiliating things happened to Anna. Sogyal always has diarrhoea – his diabetes and his diarrhoea make him extremely irritable. We had to wipe his arse each time he took a crap. He also has haemorrhoids. Someone wiped his arse, then he asked her to stick a finger in and it hurt — so he went into a total fit and called in all the girls. He asked each of us to wipe him to see who was the best. That was the only time I heard him say something nice about Anna – he announced that it was one thing she could do well.”

Janine’s epiphany….

…..occurred when she was travelling alone on Eurostar:

“I’d been distancing myself from Sogyal for some time. I could do this because I was not dependent on him like the other girls. I’d always kept up my singing lessons and had friends outside Rigpa. There I was in the tunnel and the defences I’d built up started to collapse. I remembered things.  I realised I’d been raped and from that point onwards the more I remembered, the sicker I got.”

Janine went into counselling and after initially keeping her experiences with Sogyal to herself, she eventually opened up with her therapist, who advised her to devise a closure ritual so that she could clear the psycho-emotional decks and move on:

“I was really ill – I kept getting infections and I had a fever for about three weeks. I had nightmares every night – I was an empty carcass and I thought I was going crazy. Realising I’d reached my limit, I took my counsellor’s advice and created a monstrous drawing and collage. I put myself in it and the other girls and I did a caricature of Sogyal like a Tibetan deity with lots of arms – but they were holding things like cash and the beating stick. Instead of clouds I put speech bubbles with the phrases in them that he used to intimidate and manipulate us.”

Janine took her artwork to Sogyal when he was leading the Rigpa UK Easter retreat. She also took two friends to ride shotgun – one of them a very big man. “We went into his formal reception room and I handed him the drawing and burst into floods of tears. There was a long silence – then he asked me what I wanted. I tried to say that I wanted him to stop what he’s doing, but he started to talk about money. I thought well, why not – I would like my expenses for the trip. I told him the ticket cost 450 Euros, so he got up and came back with an envelope. I left with my friends and when I opened the envelope I had a moment of pleasure – he’d given me 350, rather than the full amount so I knew I’d made him angry. “After this a lot of important Rigpa people called me. There were all sorts of threats and I heard that men were claiming I’d slept with them and were calling me a whore. But they should know that Sogyal is very possessive about the women he likes – he only lets the ones he wants to get rid off sleep with other men. I know now that many of the things he does are punishable by law. I am not afraid of him”.

The three year retreat

While the Sogyal-Janine saga played out, Gerard was participating in Rigpa’s first three years, three months and three days retreat.

This is a traditional Tibetan Buddhist training programme, designed to bring about deep contemplative realisation and yogic insight. The retreat, involving intensive practice and seclusion from the outside world, began on August 9 2006 and ended on 21 November 2009.

However, true to form, Sogyal adapted the retreat to dovetail with his version of Tibetan Buddhism as a marketable commodity. One of Rigpa’s web sites described it thus:

“…the purpose of such a break is to re-emerge into the world refreshed and re-inspired, having further developed the mind’s innate qualities of peacefulness and clarity, and deepened the heart’s innate capacity for empathy and compassion.”

It does not mention any of the profound aspects of Buddhist meditation– ‘primordial emptiness’ for example, or ‘integration beyond duality’. In comparison with the way other lamas present Tibetan Buddhism, Sogyal’s programme could be equated with studying for primary school exams. Gerard Dubois – retired from flight duty and free from family obligations – sorted his external affairs and settled into Lerab Ling with every intention of staying the retreat distance, in the expectation that it would move his spiritual practice into a fresh dimension. Instead he found himself in a situation where the emphasis on group rather than solitary practice was wholly unproductive:

“I had no experiences” he says, “at the start I went along with what was happening, but eventually I gave up and instead of doing Tibetan meditation, I concealed a Zen text in my prayer books and read that when I was supposed to be meditating.”

The coup de grace on Gerard’s involvement with Rigpa came when he read a letter from Janine – three weeks after it had arrived. In it she confessed to her father that she had been in a sexual relationship with Sogyal. “I was very angry” he says.

Gerard demanded an interview with Sogyal, who was initially wary but then admitted he had had sex with Janine.  He tried to shift the blame onto her – claiming that she had seduced him and that he was at first resistant, but later gave in to her demands.

Gerard was inclined to believe his daughter’s version of what happened and this, coupled with his disillusionment with Tibetan spiritual practice, made him decide to leave the retreat – but not before he had shared his feelings with other retreatants: “We were not allowed to talk” he says, “but we found ways to communicate.” As a result some of the 200 people present also left the retreat – some shocked at the revelation, others realising that their pre-existing doubts were well founded.

Witnesses

During the time that Sogyal has been active as a lama in the developed world, the deep split between his public persona and his private life has been observed by several people who were not involved with him sexually. These include former assistants, a former member of Rigpa UK, an anonymous witness who was the manager of a Rigpa centre and Louella – who cooked for Sogyal while he was teaching in Montreal.

“I was in his apartment all day. Most of the time Sogyal was with his two dakinis Janine and Anna. I saw him furious and yelling  insults at Janine, saying things like ‘she’s such a stupid woman’. He ran after her trying to hit her as she ran away, crying. When he noticed me there, he became very uneasy and tried to explain that he had to act like this because she had made a mistake

“When he was taking a bath he used to shout for Janine. I asked Anna what was wrong with him. She replied that he needed Janine to wash him. I was astonished at this – coming from a lama who claims to be as powerful as Padmasambhava. I left Rigpa because in my view the way Sogyal acts is autocratic and abusive and Rigpa was becoming increasingly like a cult. Sogyal orders people around without any respect for their personal needs. Although I am still interested in Buddhism, I do not have confidence in Sogyal.”

The abuse witnessed by Louella and experienced by Dierdre and Janine begs the question – why do Sogyal’s Dakinis tolerate his behaviour? There is a core group who have been in this role for a long time, as well as a steady input of new recruits. Considering that beatings and other forms of abuse have been happening for many years, why have so few women felt motivated to speak out?

In answer to the first question – members of Sogyal’s harem have very high status within Rigpa. They are the closest to the guru and the propaganda line is that they are chosen for their spiritual qualities. On the second question, most of them are indoctrinated into keeping silent in order to ‘protect the dharma’. Some are embarrassed by the fact that they allowed themselves to be duped by a con man – and after extricating themselves from his clutches want to move on from the experience, rather than re-live it (painfully) in interviews. Also there is an element of sado-masochism in the relationship between Sogyal and his harem. Janine maintains that one woman in particular welcomes the beatings. In 2011 a woman who wishes to remain anonymous wrote about her experiences with Sogyal:

“It’s all so subtle and manipulative you just don’t realise what’s happening and you get ensnared in the dogma web. Fear and suspicion play a big part in controlling you. I remember I seriously started to have doubts about 5 years ago. I was ordered to give Alison a massage and she confided in me that she was SR’s main consort and that he had a harem. She said after he made love to her he just rolled over with no tenderness and she confessed how hard she found it and how jealous all the girls were of each other – that they are very competitive. She said she had been told to make a vow with 2 other main girls in the harem so that they couldn’t have sexual relations with anyone else but were kind of married exclusively to him.

“The following Easter retreat I had lost a lot of weight (he likes them skinny) and had just come out of a long relationship. As soon as SR knew this he started on me. He started to grab me and kiss me, but I would push him away. The worst time was when he’d eaten some Tibetan cheese and kissed me and poured the contents in my mouth — horrific. He also started to court another young girl who is married.  She’s his consort now.

“The following summer I was called into his chalet with Alison and Lorraine when he took Alison’s breasts out and kissed them and took mine out but thankfully didn’t do anything to me, I think it was to see how I would react. He kissed Lorraine (who is Patrick’s partner) and then ordered me to give Alison a massage. That same summer he called me on my own into his chalet and said he wanted to open me up a little. I felt very trapped and frozen. I just stood there. He kissed me than told me to lift my skirt because he wanted to look at my bottom. Then he asked me if I thought he was a good kisser – how pathetic is that? I eventually said I didn’t want anything and I left. After that I was ignored by Sogyal and his entourage were horrible to me.”

Marie Lefevre had a salaried job with Rigpa Paris, working for 8 to 12 hours a day. She witnessed a number of circumstances and events which aroused grave doubts and caused her to leave.

“I noticed that people are brainwashed and that Rigpa is run more like a business mafia than a spiritual organisation. They are obsessed with appearances —  Sogyal urges his people to buy expensive clothes and products and to look smart. Money given by devout students is used to buy luxuries for Sogyal – and people who have outlived their usefulness are discarded in a very cruel manner.”

After 36 years of high profile activity as a spiritual mentor, it was inevitable that the dichotomy between the man and his message would become known. In 2009 internet blogs in French and English (Les Trois Mondes and Dialogue Ireland) attracted testimonies from a wide spectrum of people disillusioned with Rigpa and distressed by sexual encounters with Sogyal. A Google search tag lined ‘Sogyal Rinpoche abuse’ reveals a range of internet chatter along the same lines.  It has to be said that some postings defend the man with obvious sincerity, whilst others are emotional outpourings from people who have invested their hopes and aspirations in a charismatic leader whose shortcomings are being revealed through the lens of public scrutiny.

In 2011 Sogyal’s sex life came under mainstream media scrutiny again. The Canadian production company Cogent Benger made a half hour investigative television documentary called In the Name of Enlightenment. It was broadcast on Vision TV in Canada on 27 May as an item in a four part series on sexual abuse in religions. It featured among others, Victoria Barlow, Mary Finnigan, a Canadian former Rigpa student Denise and the Buddhist teachers Stephen and Martine Batchelor. Reports based on this documentary appeared in The Irish Sunday Times and The Guardian newspapers.

In October 2011 the French news magazine Marianne carried a six page feature on one of Sogyal’s teaching retreats at Lerab Ling. It was compiled from material gathered by an undercover journalist, Elodie Emery. The tone of the reportage alternates from coy to sarcastic to ‘shock horror’ and contains allegations which would not get past legal scrutiny at mainstream British media. It does, however, vividly illustrate the dysfunctional ambiance of a Rigpa event and it highlights Sogyal’s bully boy tactics, the pleasure he derives from making people squirm and his ruthlessly cruel treatment of one participant, who was stumbling towards an agonised confession in front of 500 retreatants. Emery also reported that Sogyal’s display of self-importance included claims that people has been cured of cancer and blindness as a result of their devotion to him.

Most of the thousands of spiritual seekers worldwide who still revere Sogyal choose to remain in denial. They have probably been advised against doing internet searches, on the basis that awareness of his hidden agenda would adversely affect their Buddhist practice. There are two taboos in Buddhist organisations – both of which have merit and both of which can be used as manipulative tools. One of them is an injunction against gossip – useful when trying to establish a calm mental state, but also useful to prevent the circulation of critical comment. The second is samaya – the indestructible bond of loyalty that is one of the key tenets of Tibetan Buddhism. It supports the relationship between teacher and neophyte – but it can be deployed unscrupulously as a threat – break your samaya and attract dire consequences to yourself and your loved ones. Tibetan lamas who have taken empowerments from the same guru regard themselves as vajra brothers, bound by samaya. This is probably one explanation for the fact that the majority of lamas teaching in the developed world have closed ranks around Sogyal – regardless of their misgivings about his modus operandi. A more cynical view hinges on the fact that Sogyal   pulls in a great deal of money – some of which is channelled into Tibetan worthy causes. There is a Tibetan prophecy attributed to Padmasambhava which goes like this:

When the Iron Bird flies and horses run on wheels, the Tibetan people will be scattered like ants across the world and the dharma will come to the land of the red man. If it really was uttered in the 8th century, it is a potent illustration of the qualities of Tibetan Buddhism that have attracted a huge worldwide following and made the predication come true. Sogyal and his cohorts have built an empire on the basis of that tradition, but they have turned their version of it into a cult around a celebrity guru – losing sight of core principles in their quest for ever-expanding power, influence and cash flow.

Pseudonyms are used to protect some individuals. Their words are on record and their identities are known.

1,249 Responses

  1. wildy
    This author I guess has some sort of influence from Dorji Shugden followers or may be some chinese.

    My friend you might be looking in the wrong direction from where you are standing Lamaism, which is not Buddhism at all has sold out to the Chinese and brainwashed the westerners to think the problem is the Chinese
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/category/buddhist/tibetan-buddhism-lamaism/

    Like

  2. This author I guess has some sort of influence from Dorji Shugden followers or may be some chinese.
    That is all I can say.

    Like

  3. bla-bla-bla…..
    How can ANYONE pretend to KNOW a Vajra Master?
    Since HE IS REALIZED, whatever He does has meaning and is golden!

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  4. DI Moderation:
    Again this thread which is dedicated to addressing the abuse of women by Sogyal Rimpoche is being diverted into a discussion of Buddhism itself. We have no problem with this discussion but only as it related to the thread. We will not delete comments up to this point but warn all concerned, that you have allowed your selves to be diverted to discussing the Religion of Buddhism rather than the issue of abuse.
    From here on in we will at worst delete any off thread comment and at best return to use the spillover thread.
    Please from now on that use that forum for Buddhist internal argument and let the women be heard. Also any attempts to try to use transcendental trickery to avoid this will be slammed.

    The Rigpa Spillover Thread

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  5. This post presents clear idea for the new people
    of blogging, that really how to do blogging.

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  6. Thank you for this horrendous expose. Sogyal should be jailed, tis’ as simple as that.

    What amazes me is the laxity of the Tibetan hierarchy which tolerates and sometimes encourages such pseudo-Tibetan cults.

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  7. Sheila, I think the Catholic church is a colossal supercult. It is exactly that. Catholicism and Islam are probably the two most evil and socially destructive ideologies on earth today, precisely because of their size. Not a devaluation of the term at all. They are exactly that!

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  8. aaagghhhh, it’s so scary reading about how the incredibly ignorant and superstitious hippies and fringe groups in Western countries have allowed the defilement of Dharma to continue.

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  9. But Drolma, you have suggested for example that spiritual teachers and students should not have sex. I simply disagree with this theory, and strongly–for not the least of which reasons is both my parents having been, at one time or another, at the podium while the other was a student!

    Specifics are what is needed, on all sides of the issues you raise.

    Who, exactly, are the teachers you are warning against? Generalities are ineffective at best, and harmful at worst.

    There are, for example, 38 articles at Dialogue Ireland now under the heading “Rigpa” – and absolutely no information given as to which teachers in Rigpa to avoid, save one.

    Yet the impression created is that at any given moment in Rigpa facilities around the world, Sogyal Rinpoche and nameless Buddhist, Jewish, Hindu and Christian accomplices are poised to swoop in and hypnotize you into robotic subservience. I say that because at any given moment, at Rigpa facilities around the world, teachers from these faiths are to be found, and it is these teachers being condemned by Dialogue Ireland as well.

    This kind of carelessness, intended or not, serves to muddle–and harm–not clarify.

    Further, by posing a cult experts and then classifying Rigpa as a cult, Dialogue Ireland really throws into question the definition of “cult” altogether. I was raised in a cult, and Rigpa does not function at all like one–not even close, not even within striking distance. Put another way, if you are going to convince people Rigpa is a cult, they will quickly determine the Catholic church to be a colossal supercult. A sort of devaluation of the term “cult,” in other words. Not, I think, Dialogue Ireland’s intended objective.

    Again, muddling and carelessness does not prevent harm, but contributes to it. There’s nothing at all wrong in pointing out danger, but one simply must show what on earth, exactly, one is talking about. And if strategies are suggested that include preventing my parents from marrying, it would be illogical for me not to object. It’s really not fair to say that means I’m “supporting abuse.”

    As you say, this is not the Middle Ages — many Buddhist teachers and students today are happily married, and found their partners within their spiritual community.

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  10. Alexander, I agree with you– and if you read Tibetan Buddhist texts on ethics, there is little to discourage promiscuity– I think there’s reference to having sex no more than five times a night and not with someone else’s prostitute– but no reference to lamas and students etc. Certainly these are not guidelines that would sit well in the West. The Buddha himself taught very little in the Vinaya on sexual behavior except in reference to adultery and other clear instances of harm. It is interesting to note that the Buddha never clearly proscribed homosexuality, but Tibetan Buddhist texts (and therefore HH Dalai Lama) have. So it seems that Buddhist ethics in regard to sexuality is clearly culture-bound. I believe that as Buddhism spreads to the west, there needs to be more conversation on cultural considerations and what constitutes harm in sexual behaviors. These troubles should not be pushed under the table, (Sheila!!!) but aired and aired until clarity is attained. Harm is harm, Sheila, let’s not return to the middle ages!

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  11. We can not link to it. It is a violation of copyright

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  12. We should have the link to Debbi Goodwin´s film about Sogyal here:

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  13. Humans are designed to mate. The only unnatural thing is here is some humans trying to tell others not to.

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  14. The issue of sex and spirituality seems to be a subset of an even larger issue: the relationship between sex and success. It does seem to be true that success, in the largest sense, i.e., living “larger than life,” is directly related to sexual appetite. Perhaps this is due to a combination of stress and ego inflation. Perhaps there is also a natural element to it: i.e., the one who has 100x the energy of the ordinary or average human being, such as is required to become successful at anything, will also have 100x the vitality and therefore 100x the sex drive, which is, after all, a natural appetite. One sees this phenomenon everywhere, from rock stars to actors to politicians to poets and artists. So why should we not see it amongst gurus too? Muhammed, Aleister Crowley, the late Chogyam Trungpa, Adi Da, and numerous others come to mind, some of whom are sensationalized in the online book, Stripping the Gurus. Even chaste Krishnamurti had an adulterous affair with a married woman for 12 years that he concealed whilst claiming to be chaste and desireless. In some religions, sex and spriituality are not considered to be antithetical. The Old Testament prophets appear to have been quite active in their day. The early Gnostic Christians practised graphic sex rites in underground caverns. Sexual symbolism pervades the Cabala and many other traditions. And the Great Rite of Vajrayana Buddhism appears to allude quite openly to actual sexual teachings that have become covered over by the prudery of later generations. The great Padmasambhava was clearly sexually active. I am not saying that these considerations excuse unethical or hypocritical behaviour on the part of anyone. I merely offer them to provide context, and perhaps an indication of a possible way forward.

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  15. from Rick Ross website about Sogyal and the film-now available online in it’s entirety. Apparently, Debi Goodwin who made the film wrote this:

    Quote:
    It is not just fear that stops women. Many question their own part in the affairs or know others will. The victims are often vulnerable women who have lost parents or been sexually abused before. They are confused young disciples who sometimes find the only comfort they have known in years in a Buddhist centre or in a master, women who have grown up without figures they could trust in their lives. When relationships became sexual they feel unsure of what to do. Two women who wanted to confront the master who had used them sexually were told by a leading Buddhist thinker to “get over it.” One woman told me that if any other “guy” had jumped her, she would have known what to do. But when a Tibetan, supposed to be a reincarnation of a lama, did, she found herself questioning whether accepting this was part of her path to enlightenment. Another woman describes herself as being so worn out from all the work she had to do in service to the master she was unable to reflect on the sexual relationship once it started.
    When I spoke to women on the telephone they seemed relieved that they were finally talking. For all of them, the events had happened years ago and they wanted to see them as something that was behind them. But doing an interview to be televised was another matter. One woman, who was eager to get her story out, took days to respond to my specific request to interview her on a certain day. She told me later that the reality of it hit her very hard and she really had to rethink if she wanted this out there. Another woman, once she finished her interview was filled with doubt and the realization that it was hard to open wounds she believed were healing.

    The women I have encountered have lost so much and have fought so hard for their equilibrium. Trying to recover from pasts by following a spiritual path, they were betrayed by the very masters who pretended to offer them hope.

    Debi Goodwin

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  16. i gave up reading your blog post….there are way too many unnamed sources. If you cant revile the source, then leave out the “fact”.
    Statements like “A very reticent Englishman” sounds to me like “Sources close to the…”
    All it does is muddy the water for the truth, which is a pity.

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  17. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/20/women-sue-met-sexual-assault?INTCMP=SRCH
    The link above highlights some of the difficulties women face in reporting rape..as it says in this article, they face disbelief a lot of the time. I think this is relevant on this thread as Shiela has repeatedly said words along the line of ” all women need to do is go to the police”

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  18. Enough prooves have been accumulating for years which show that SR is sexually abusing students and sadistically emotionally damaging others.
    Enough pseudo Tibetan Tantra bullshit to justify his conduct.
    This is not about Buddhism, but about a very perverse man who acts under the covert of spirituality and whose crimes are covered up by the circle of old timers of Rigpa who are in total dissociation and have too much to lose.
    As far as I am concerned, the right answer is not to retrieve cowardly into another well known pseudo excuse such as
    “as a practicing Buddhist, one should look for face to face dialogue with SR”
    there is no dialogue possible with perpetrators,any therapist will tell you that..
    Or” my Bodhissatva vows tell me to forgive”
    Again, compassion dictates that we undanger ourselves if needed to break the denial and end all this abuse which, undenounced, creeps on in other teachers who mimick SR.
    I am a French woman ,have been a Buddhist practitioner since 1970, have seen it all, been on three year retreat.I have the same teacher from the beginning, genuine one,The one person who gets it on this thread is Anonymous.Time to come forward;read testimonies, open your eyes, go and see a SR show for yourself;Step out of the hypnosis.

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  19. Moderator Note
    Out of all the posts that have sparked debate, our Rigpa postings have attracted far and away the largest number of comments. However, not all of these comments have been pertinent to the topic at hand.

    We at Dialogue Ireland have been hesitant to moderate with a heavy hand as we feel it can stifle the free flow of discussion. Unfortunately this ideal has lead to the threads in question being dragged far beyond their original intentions. We had hoped that our forums would help alleviate this problem by providing a platform where such discussions could be continued. Despite our hopes this option has not been fully engaged, and it appears that our commenters prefer to leave comments on this site.

    With this in mind we are creating a ‘Rigpa Spillover Thread’. It does seem as if there are a collection of commenters who wish to engage with each other on topics not directly related our threads. By creating a thread specifically for such comments we hope that our Rigpa threads can remain more fully on topic.

    You can find The Rigpa Spillover Thread here and comment away there to your heart’s content. Any further off-topic comments will either be deleted or copied&pasted to that thread.

    Please note that The Rigpa Spillover Thread here is a special thread that will be exempt from the usual moderation (bar anything that could get us in trouble legally).
    End Moderator Note

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  20. Alternative Comments, I didn’t mind the length of your posts, and thought it was good to have a fresh voice in the discussion. Thank you for your thoughts.

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  21. DI, I did not understand you recommendation regarding the opening of a new discussion on your forum.

    DI Moderation: Here it is http://www.dialogueireland.org/forum/ Regardless of your intention it is not part of this thread.

    And also, the deleted part of my message was not, at least in my intention, a virulent debate, but a courtesy answer to Bella, explaining myself that it was not in my interest particularly a debate regarding the relationship between Buddhism and Christianity, that other was my intention. In order to assure myself that she got that intention, I highlighted in it the same main points from my previous messages that, in my opinion, were in direct relationship with SR and the way some of his students have the necessary prerequisites to assess his spiritual authority, and the proved ability to have a balanced judgment in that respect, using her case as an illustration for those points. In the same time, I expressed my willingness to answer her questions in the limits of my understanding and to recommend her literature recommendations for that purpose in another context than in the current thread (through mail, for example), if she is really curious and willing to find alternative answers than those she already has in mind.

    Anyway, I do not have any more directly relevant ideas to add to this thread, so, thank you for the opportunity to share the ones I had, and I hope to read fruitful news in the future on this topic. Also, tank you for all that read my long posts, and for all the received comments.

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  22. DI Moderation: We are not a Christian Site but one dedicated to the protection of Human rights. We warned you to not debate this off topic issue here. Any further comments will be removed that do not address ~ Sogyal Rimpoche ~ The imbalance of power and abuse of spiritual authority. It has nothing to do with any issue other issue.
    We have provided a forum where people can go to address these other concerns http://www.dialogueireland.org/forum/
    You should not play the victim card we have facilitated youin both your identity security and providing you a platform to respond to this thread

    Di, Why do you allow Alternative perspective to post long distracting messages, but if I do the same, respond to his post, you remove mine, not his?

    Dialogue? What was it again?

    Because I question the Christian explanation of Jesus, and that seems insulting. Jesus was also an angry person, throwing around tables and doing many things that could be really weird from present day view. That cannot be reminded! He was not a saintly figure who tapped people on the head, but an anarchist, radical person.

    That cannot be pointed out, because if SR is an ‘angry’ (wrathful) he is not entitled to it, even though his motivation could be the same: remove obstacles, deception, and in some way ‘wrong’ behavior or motivation from his closest students?

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  23. DI, I just wrote a very long post saying the focus should be Sogyal Rinpoche, based on the title of this thread.

    I bring the conversation back on track and you accuse me of diverting? Please explain.

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  24. Bella,
    I do not want to be again off topic and entering here this time for real in a debate about Christianity and Buddhism, and which one is more truthful. It will be a very log debate for which there is not the place here…….
    DI Moderation having made that point you proceed to go into a virulent debate. Please open this discussion on our forum

    DI Moderation: You have allowed Sheila to divert you from the main them of Sogyal Rimpoche ~ The imbalance of power and abuse of spiritual authority, but because we have left Sheila’s comment as a warning to people to ignore her attempts to divert.

    Sheila,
    My previous post was not about Rigpa as a cult, I did not discuss that in detail with arguments and counterarguments, and I do not see the point here. For me, the Rigpa problem is defined in the terms of the fact that there are some former Rigpa students unsatisfied with it or SR, or making more or less truthful allegations about him and his abuses (verbal ones, or sexual ones). I simply made a statement about the level of SR’s knowledge about Christianity as it is shown in his writings, and that, in my opinion, that level does not allow him the right to state something about Jesus or devotion to Jesus, or about Trinity, inducing in a dishonest way the idea for some of his students that they can remain Christians by practicing in Rigpa. As regards the invited Christians … there are Christians and Christians, as there are Buddhists and Buddhists … Is the central point the China-Tibet problem, who is pro- and who is against, and everything should be read through that lenses? I am neither Chinese, nor Tibetan, and I do not have a particular interest in one of them, apart from the general human one for a final peace between them.

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  25. Alternate Perspective, I am very fond of the truth, I assure you.

    I think people who don’t have any personal experience with Rigpa pick up the “cult” ball and run with it, not actually knowing whether Rigpa is organized as a cult, and whether it functions as a cult.

    Cult’s don’t generally invite speakers from other traditions than their very own (and some cults don’t even go that far, lol). Rigpa, from what I can see, invites speakers from various schools of Buddhism, and from various Christians denominations, for example.

    There isn’t, from what I can see, a “Rigpa textbook series,” as there is in the New Kadampa Tradition; people are not encouraged to read “only Sogyal Rinpoche’s books,” as they are in NKT to read Geshe Kelsang Gyatso’s.

    All organizations, at the office level, end up with very devoted people whose lives get sucked into the effort (usually by there own choice, unless it’s an actual cult). Whether it’s a karate studio, the Air Cadets, a music group, we all can get very devoted to our pursuits.

    Devotion alone, however, doesn’t equate to cultish paralyzation: is the person free to come and go? The answer seems in Rigpa to be “yes.”

    I think it’s a mistake to write your accusations against this man off as a “Rigpa problem,” because I haven’t yet seen evidence of a “Rigpa problem.” I think it’s a mistake to write it off as a Tibetan problem, a Buddhist problem, or a Vajrayana problem.

    If in fact you are speaking of this one man – which the title of this thread would indicate we are – then isn’t the alleged problem, in fact, about this man?

    I think that’s why the allegations get no traction – too many people want to use a “bad Buddhist man” story for their own purposes, and since they do not seem, in most cases, to share purposes, it’s just a lot of different people tugging in different directions, in some cases destroying each other’s efforts outright.

    It may also be that the story itself doesn’t hold up; however, because of all the noisy fracas–including tabloidy, poorly-researched scream pieces–it’s nearly impossible to have any real conversation on that central point.

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  26. more smokescreen irrelevancies from the openly biased and the purportedly neutral Close the comments DI-the genuine stuff is being deliberately buried

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  27. DI Moderation: Bella we removed your material earlier We are sorry too but we warned you earlier and you persist in continuing with this off topic material which has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread. We suggest you use our Forum to have this debate. We offered this service but people persist in bombing this site with off topic meanderings. The End

    There has to be discussions between religions. Why do you want to prevent SR to co-operate with Christians? What are you afraid of? ………………………………

    ……………The idea of Karma. Listen to what SR teaches about it. It’s not that you have to live 30 years with something because you caused suffering for some other being for 30 years. The deeper understanding of karma is that karma are the lenses through which we see the world. Therefore, if we chance our view we change our karmic vision. It requires deep understanding and self awareness to change those lenses.

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  28. DI Moderation: We are sorry too but we warned you yesterday and you persist today it has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread. We suggest you use our Forum to have this debate. We offered this service but people persist in bombing this site with off topic meanderings. The End

    I am sorry that I got off topic by trying to depict the big picture of the issue of the abuse made in the name of a spiritual authority, as perceived by me. My point was to show that the imbalance of power has little to do with sex, and more with an apparent imbalance of religious culture, as I wanted to show taking Bella’s particular case and her simplistic views regarding the religion of her own culture (limited, as it seems, from her answers, to her short encounters with some priests, her revolt against the killing of animals in her culture, and the lecture of the Gnostic gospels, which are supposed to be actually written under the influence of the Buddhism ideas that reached Alexandria in those times) and even in what respects Buddhist religion…………………………….

    …………………..So, my previous message was to show evidence that SR and some of his defenders are not particular fond of truth, as a spiritual leader or disciple should be, that SR is being capable of dishonesty in his statements, and false pretense, inducing the idea that he is something he is not: a man who has the authority to pronounce himself regarding Jesus, and inducing the idea that a Christian remains a Christian by practicing in Rigpa.

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  29. One more thing: women can pack their bags and leave. I haven’t heard SR to EVER throw somebody out of the door. He doesn’t abandon people.

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  30. Alternative,

    “it makes one think that he has never read thoroughly Christian literature to check his ideas. Only if he considers himself to be omniscient and to have an unsurpassed experience it would be understandable that he does not need to read such literature.”

    Do you think that we can guess by reading Christian literature that Guru Rinpoche is higher or lower path for Salvation than Jesus was?

    Jesus can himself say whatever and Christians can say that Christ is the only way, but there is no proof of any kind of that.

    You rather believe your Christian books, so you may believe.

    I have read books about Guru Rinpoche’s direct teachings and they are many – many more than what is testified in the Bible that Jesus have ever said on this Earth.

    One should compare those words carefully. What makes more sense.

    Just because Jesus said “I am the Way” doesn’t mean he is the way. What did he mean by that anyway? That his way is the way or he is the direct link? Also Buddhists consider Guru Rinpoche as a special link – almost in the same way. Maybe SR understands your Christian faith deeper than what you can, because he also has the deeper, esoteric teachings of Buddhism available.

    What is sin?

    “Will matter then be destroyed or not?

    22) The Savior said, All nature, all formations, all creatures exist in and with one another, and they will be resolved again into their own roots.

    23) For the nature of matter is resolved into the roots of its own nature alone.

    24) He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

    25) Peter said to him, Since you have explained everything to us, tell us this also: What is the sin of the world?

    26) The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin.

    27) That is why the Good came into your midst, to the essence of every nature in order to restore it to its root.”

    http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm

    It is very interesting when you as a Buddhist read these Gnostic texts, even the words are so similar to Buddhist teaxts and ideas.
    Roots, nature…

    DI This is a diversion from the theme of this thread ~ Sogyal Rimpoche ~ The imbalance of power and abuse of spiritual authority.
    We had a Christian diversion now Bella has a comment-craze to take us off the subject. Stay focussed. We have removed all those off topic comments

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  31. Did you ever hear that one can either follow a teacher or not follow?

    There is the freedom of choice.

    Buddhist rulers are also the kind of rulers that I really wouldn’t mind if the whole world would be ruled by those people!

    Just think this loving face and compare it to the maniacs like Bush or Putin!

    http://www.nyingma.com/artman/publish/dilgo_khyentse_rinpoche.shtml

    If all men were like him, I wouldn’t have any problem with male gender.

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  32. What about the fact that only some part of the Tibetan nation lives in cities, like in Lhasa. Most lived in the rural areas and did shepherd work. How much were they connected to any kind of feudal or military machinery that you try to picture here?

    Chinese communism doesn’t practice compassion of any kind. Don’t bring your propaganda here. We don’t believe your Chinese stories.

    How happy people were under Christian rule? I believe that is the reason why the time of the enlightenment tried to bring individuals freedom of thought.

    Buddhist religion is really very different from Christianity. All the aspects like submission in Islam are absent in Buddhism.

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  33. Matte-Micaela, it has occurred to me that you may be an innocent victim of this “translation.” I would urge you to find a way to ask your Taiwanese friend for a photocopy of the page (Chapter 13, p. 376) which your friend says contains the reference to 12 year old girls. I can check the translation, or of course you can ask someone else to check the translation as well.

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  34. I agree strongly that devotion to the truth is paramount. The truth can be exceedingly difficult to determine; however, I do think it has a tendency to rise to the surface as the result of taking action to seek it. One way of taking action is by discussing and debating the points of a particular issue; over time, I believe truths emerge.

    For example, I’ve heard the “Tibetan tantras require underage girls” nonsense over the past four years or so now, and it wasn’t until this very thread here that it finally came to the surface–in conjunction with some other digging–that this reference is from a single (alleged) book published in China in 1986. The author is said to be Fazun; however, Fazun passed away in 1980.

    The book is not a tantra. It’s not even a commentary on a tantra. It is said by those (exceptionally few) referring to it, that it is Fazun’s translation of a work by Tsongkhapa. I can’t find any actual copy of the book so far, nor any proof of existence of “Wondrous Favor Publishing Company.” However, things can be hard to find in China, so I’m not saying yet that the book doesn’t exist: simply, that it’s not a Tibetan tantra, and that to date I can find zero references in Tibetan tantra to 12 year old girls.

    A chief problem with the “translation,” is that it seems to contain material (case in point, the underage girl references) not existing in Tsongkhapa’s original.

    Current theory: Some anonymous sicko inserted references to underage girls into a “translation” of a Tibetan book, after which a pro-PRC Taiwanese and German woman convinced online Buddhists that Tibetans molest children as part of their religion.

    Not having access to the book, for that matter, we have only the word of the aforementioned people that the underage references actually exist in the Chinese book. I’d feel more comfortable continuing to lambast the book if I could see proof the references are there at all.

    I stand to be corrected if any information turns up to shed more light.

    However, one thing is clear: the specific reference currently being used to accuse Tibetan Buddhism of promoting child abuse does not, as claimed, come from a Tibetan tantra, nor from a Tibetan commentary on a tantra.

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  35. Who can know for sure if SR abused or not female students? SR, those potential victims and, maybe, some silent or confused witnesses … As it was said before, the discussion on this forum may go round and round, without a definitive conclusion. But it seems to me that at the root at this problem is, as it is said to be always in Buddhism and also in this forum, the ignorance. For an outsider, SR’s character and credibility could be judged by reading his most representative book: “The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying”, as a public evidence. There are some traces that indicate that he may be deceitful, as I said before.

    One such trace is that he claims to know better than Christians what devotion to Jesus is and means, what Trinity is for them (being the same, in his opinion with the Trikaya), and, implicitly, proclaims unilaterally that both views are compatible, and can be followed interchangeable. In the same time, claiming such things, he does not make reference to any important and widely recognized Christian authors or biblical texts. It makes one think that he has never read thoroughly Christian literature to check his ideas. Only if he considers himself to be omniscient and to have an unsurpassed experience it would be understandable that he does not need to read such literature.

    His ideas were presented in a similar manner by Bella, who said that he respects Jesus. But, in my opinion, if someone respects a person, respects her/his words and opinions, too. This respect should not mean mere tolerance of the existence of a different opinion of this other person (each person living as in a parallel world, with a worldview in accordance only with her/his particular needs), in contradiction with one’s own, but agreeing with her/his views, or actually listening to what another one says and trying to understand and answer in a way to all her/his ideas, by adopting them or even contradict them by counterarguments, but not simply ignoring them. And, from what is generally known about SR and from undisputed facts about him, and about Jesus’ words, this is not the case. For example, Jesus said that a man should have only one woman … SR does not hold dear such a view, on the contrary … Furthermore, not taking sexual relationships seriously means not taking human relationships seriously, and lack of respect for a human being. Another person is not only a body representing only a source of pleasure (even if it is for both of them), replaceable anytime with another one. The mutual consent of two adults is not enough for a sexual relationship to be OK from a spiritual point of view. It has to be also a commitment for a long time, the entire life, in order to be sure that no part would get finally hurt in a way or another. It counts also the reasons behind the consent for a sexual relationship. It is not only an exchange of sensual pleasure, or an exchange of favors of one kind of another. It is not even a spiritual bargain. Spiritual and psychological maturity should not be confounded with the biological maturity.

    Jesus considered His sacrifice to have a meaning, other than to be mere a lesson for His followers, saving other people through His death and resurrection … If He is considered to be only a Buddha or bodhisattva in disguise, it is unclear to me what meaning his death and resurrection could have from a Buddhist point of view (if body and person are in a way an illusion, even Ego sacrifice is not properly a sacrifice, and the same goes, even more, for the body sacrifice)… It seems to me that Jesus’s death has no meaning in Buddhism, as Bella said, that it is important only the Ego sacrifice. Speaking of the Ego sacrifice, in Christianity, too, there is no animal or bodily sacrifice, and there are biblical texts and prayers showing that the only sacrifice God wants from people is a humble soul (For example, Jesus said: “I desire mercy, not sacrifice”). The fact that in Christian countries animals are killed for food or otherwise does not prove anything about Christianity, as the same happens in Buddhist countries. At most, such facts show only that people from those countries are not true followers of the religion of their culture, or that they are needy or greedy. If people read Old Testament they would found out that animals are protected and not to be killed because they are too God’s creatures. Animals were given to man in order to protect them, to take care of them, not to kill them. And Heaven is conceived to be a state in which animals will not eat other animals. It is said that saints were not attacked by animals. A Christian saint of the Eastern Orthodoxy even punished his leg for years (not wearing shoes on it), because he destroyed the nest of a bird with it.

    A proof for me that from a Buddhist point of view the life and death of Jesus has no meaning and that SR has no respect for his potential so called Christian students is that he organizes retreats simultaneously with major Christian fests. I suspect that at those retreats not many words about Jesus are heard.

    What respect such Buddhist masters or their students could have for Jesus as an enlightened person if they believe that He was not able to transmit His message in an uncorrupted manner until recently, when the apocryphal gospels were discovered? Why someone would believe more those Gnostic gospels than the canonical ones? It is maybe a question similar with the question regarding the Pali Canon and tantras … If those late teachings are supposedly for people more evolved spiritually, as a higher step, than one should prove that people from our times merit such higher teachings in comparison with the Buddha’s or Jesus’s initial followers. But as even SR says, it may be quite the opposite, that we all live in a global society fallen in a spiritual regression. In my opinion, an esoteric teaching should not contradict the public teachings, as it is the case with the Gnostic gospels. The attraction for esoteric may hide an Ego desire to be special, to have access to something that is not available to everyone, as a sign of personal value. Saying that a message is from the same source, but that it is adapted in order to fit a particular audience ( without specifying what was adapted and for what purpose, for what characteristics of the audience) is an open gate to abuse. One person may consciously or unconsciously lie that her/his own teachings were actually transmitted to her/him by Buddha or other important Buddhist figure or by Jesus, for example, in order to gain credibility or authority through such an association. Maybe that is one of the reasons for which both in Buddhism and Christianity, initially, the teachings of the initial founder were supposed to be certified by a council of important figures from that religion, in a consensual manner. A beginner is in no place to judge such things. It is more likely that the true interpretation of a religious text or teaching to be found by an agreement among many experienced persons, recognized as having spiritual authority. It is true that groups of persons may have interests other than finding and transmitting the truth (especially when it has a hierarchical organization with only one leader and a lot of ignorant members), but it is even more likely that a single person to have such hidden interests. Bella, you have asked yourself what reasons would have SR to lie to you or other persons. It is likely that his reasons are the same as the ones you believe that the Christian priests have.

    As regards the SR’s idea that it does not matter if one is devoted to Jesus or to Guru Rinpoche or SR, that all masters are the Sons of God in a very large meaning, as we all are, it makes little sense and it is not in accordance with the Jesus’s words, a master for whom SR supposedly has respect. If it is not only one true Son of God, than what is the point to devote ourselves to anyone, to a so called personal emanation, whatever it may mean, and not directly to God or the Absolute Reality? If devotion is viewed only as a skillful means, than it is emptied of its meaning, being only like a simulation, a theater play, and not true devotion. Furthermore, such skilful means is not without perils, because it may favor the attachment to a particular person (as it is the case in hand with the girls who feel they were abused by their gurus) or to a very concrete material reality, contrary to what is expected. Moreover, if devotion means serving the person for whom one has devotion, then it is hard to serve more persons in the same time. One cannot have several masters. Devotion does not mean only to be served by a master, but also to be his servant (even if that service is a symbolic one).

    Bella, your statements that “Priests who wanted power, decided there will be only one life from now on. And people should pay us money. “ and “I think it’s wrong that a God will judge people to eternal hell or heaven just for one life. I think this concept os one of those things that make me want to scream: there is no JUSTICE!” suggest that you believe that someone should choose her/his religion only guiding herself/himself on what she/he thinks to be more convenient or tolerable for her/him in accordance with her/his present experience, or what she/he considers to be just. For example, another one could consider that God would be cruel to let a person suffer for an uncountable number of lifetimes until He is able to decide. Why should a person suffer for so long, and not only a lifetime, if the decision is actually simple and it does not require time? Bella, if you were to choose a boyfriend, which one would be your choice, which one loves you more: one who says that he needs several years to figure out whether he likes you or not, or the one who says that anytime he is unconditionally yours, that he is certain that he likes you from the first meeting? God, as an omniscient and merciful person, if one’s believes to be so, surely judges otherwise than we are able to judge, from our limited point of view, not as an accountant balancing good deeds with sins (as it is in karma idea). The robber who was crucified together with Jesus needed only a single moment of mercy for Jesus, only a single decision in order to be considered worthy of Heaven, in spite of a life of sin. And in the Jesus’ parable with the master and workers, the master paid the same amount to all of them, no matter for how long they worked for him. As I said before, it is said that actually not God will judge us, but we will judge ourselves by the mere desire to love and to be connected with God or not to love and be connected with God. As regards the way the persons who were not aware of Jesus, I gave an answer in the previous message. Suffice to say here in addition of that that, for example, Jesus said that it will be easier for Sodom at the final judgment than for Capernaum, the town in which He lived. As respects the justice issue, given that in the Buddhist religion there is no explanation for the origin of a person, or in what way the person from a lifetime is different or the same with the one form another lifetime (other than the example with the candle lightening another candle or the stream metaphor), the justice notion is almost irrelevant. It may seem unjust (from our limited point of view) that a child is born with a handicap or dies, but if, from a Buddhist point of view, there is actually no beginning of a person in what way should one explain that persons got so different, that some got to have unwholesome deeds, paid in accordance with Karma maybe in another lifetime. Why is more just or educative to suffer for a deed one does not even remember and recognize? And if samsara and nirvana are considered as inseparable, why the idea of a creator God should be rejected on account that there is sufferance in the world created by Him?

    The point of the above remarks was to show that more important than devotion to a person should be devotion for the truth, devotion at least to searching the truth by reading or asking about the things that challenged one in her/his life (for example, interrogating oneself why a priest said something, and not judging only at face value, by hearsay and unsupported supposition, and condemning him from the start as having a personal material interest, while, in the same time, another person is considered benevolent only because he says what only one wants to hear, because it is more convenient to believe in those words). Treating the desire and the necessity to inform oneself as academism, and hiding superficiality, self-sufficiency and ignorance under the guise of one’s trust in her/his own limited experience (or the experience of the friends sharing the same opinion), and of a supposedly mysterious superior intuition, sometimes confounded with a so-called inner master … does not mean necessarily love for truth, but despise for truth, only to prove oneself to be right in one’s previous choices. Treating superficially and simplistic other religions, as in the straw man strategy, does not mean love for the truth and justice.

    DI Moderation: This very well crafted argument concerning the relationship of Christianity to Buddhism has no connection to the theme of this thread namely” ~ The imbalance of power and abuse of spiritual authority.” Please take this debate to a forum which addresses the truth claims of the two world religions.

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  36. I should add that if the stifling of social progress is an indication of feudalism, then Tibet wasn’t a good candidate for that accusation, either; girls in Tibet were receiving a literary education in the twelfth century in Lhasa.

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  37. Wealthy foreigners lol. I understand the tendency to assume white people are rich, but that’s not the case here. They lived in cold little room with no heat and had to pad their shoes and clothes with whatever they could find to get through the first bitter winter nights until they rounded up a wood stove. On the way to the clinic to give birth to my uncle, my grandma walked the last 20 miles or so on foot because she was afraid her water would break from all the jolts on the donkey she was riding. Lanchow is a long way from Shanghai. Not too many wealthy foreigners (or many foreigners at all) to be had in those days.

    It’s hard to hide things in Tibet. The land is very open. Stockades full of indentured servents and serfs and slaves–all that (invented) nonsense could have been seen from miles away. Not to mention that news travels like lightning in border regions–there’s lots of coming and going, lots of trade. All this “violent feudalism” would have been known about, because in those days, you had to know about such dangers in order to survive. The only violent feudalism in those regions was between warring gangs of Chinese bandits, two bands of which fought over my grandparents’ clinic supplies on the last and final raid. There weren’t any personal belongings to speak of, other than a few clothing items, but the bandits were very impressed with the medical supplies and tried to make off with them until the second band appeared on the scene and, ironically, stopped them and returned most of the medical goods.

    I didn’t say Bhutan was perfect–I said it had a low crime rate.

    I’m not in servitude to anyone, so I’m afraid your concern is misdirected in that regard.

    Religion is not the cause of abuse. Whatever your feelings for or against religion are, the cause of abuse is the abuser.

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  38. Ever heard the old line about live and let live? Or are you only happy if everyone agrees with your perspective? Looks to me like:
    a) you have too much time on your hands
    b) you or someone close to you has been abused within a religion and youou have a resulting axe to grind.

    Maybe get a job?Or start a religion: ‘Harbingerism’-the only truth. has a nice ring to it, dontcha think?

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  39. Well, certainly a defence of sorts there.

    But two people’s experience in the 40’s isn’t much is it?, as wealthy foreigners, I doubt very much if they experienced life from the perspective of the general population.

    Remember: this is about ‘An imbalance of power’. By definition there can be no such thing as a benign feudal system whether it’s theocratic or secular, Buddhist feudalism or Communist feudalism.

    This is simply because the only way to maintain it is by brutality of some kind, both physical and / or through the sort of superstitious fear that religion or other organized dogma creates when it legitimizes an elite as divine or otherwise beyond reproach.

    It’s incredible that you really don’t have a problem with feudalism and you can’t understand it in terms of the politics of class structure, what that actually means for ordinary people and how it deliberately stifles any kind of social progress.

    I’m beginning to suspect that perhaps it’s because you quite like the idea of being told what to do and maybe why you support Lamas like Sogyal who are trying to re-establish feudalism in their fashion. Good luck.

    And Bhutan? ‘Proof that the “old ways” are a completely valid and positive societal model’……strewth! until recently, totally controlled by an absolute monarchy that gave itself the right to dictate much of daily life, and still deems itself largely above criticism. Its treatment of the Nepalese minority criticized by Amnesty International. It’s now being forced to change by outside influence and despite religion, not because of it. No Shangri-La either, I’m afraid, but I’m sure it’s a wonderful place if you’re an undemanding simple-minded, devout, monarchy-loving Buddhist.

    Yes, of course abuse is human and will exist without religion. Yes the modern secular world is rife with it. But the important thing to realize in the context of this thread is that such freedoms as we enjoy, and whatever progress has been made has always been, and still is being resisted by religion in all its forms, and these things have been gained at great cost, in defiance of religion. To ignore that while enjoying these benefits, while idealizing backward religion-dominated societies is naive new-age hypocrisy.

    And yes, absolutely, everyone has the right to practice their faith, or believe whatever wacky dogma they wish, but no-one should ever use it to gain power and justify oppression or cruelty of any kind. And it’s not a good idea to defend that either.

    Sadly, religion is custom-made by humans mostly for this, the proof being that it is impossible to cite any major religions that hasn’t teamed up with the rich and powerful in society. Buddhism is certainly no exception to this.

    To many people religion seems benign and beneficial, and indeed for them it may be, in the same way that some people thrive under all kinds of regimes. But its dark side is only possible to ignore by indulging in the kind of intellectual contortions and moral selectivity that religion itself encourages, sophistry is built in to the structure. Karma is a very good example of this smug passivity in the face of inconvenient reality.

    As the saying goes;’Religion cannot make you free because it is itself a form of slavery.’ To put it another way: it’s a kind of psychological feudalism.

    So if you’re happy to be a spiritual serf and perfectly content with your servility, and you have no difficulty living your life according to the dominance/submission model of guru yoga, then I have nothing to add other than to wish that you may eventually find out what it really entails before you’ve wasted too much more of what is after all, your only life.

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  40. It is of this thread. !!

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  41. “If Tibetan Bhuddism is so wonderful why was Tibet such a barbaric feudal theocracy, or to put it another way: why wasn’t their society a shining example of all these supposedly enlightened principles?”

    But it is. If people travel to said ‘poor country’ and found happy people there, doesn’t it say something?

    “How can something supposedly wise and compassionate produce oppression and inequality?”

    Are you talking about inequality between sexes? Women had better chances than the Chinese and Indian or Muslim women. (Anybody has better chances than the Muslim women.) There is more respect toward different things, like nature, animals, living beings and so on than you can find in the West, which with it’s materialistic world view doesn’t respect anything but abuses openly anything it dares and secretly everything else. Western culture is really an abusive culture, deeply.

    “Why do so many lamas like Sogyal, behave like despots?”

    Somebody has to be the boss?

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  42. Also please keep in mind that Bhutan, with an extremely low crime rate, is the closest example of what Tibetan society would have been without a Chinese invasion. Bhutanese practice this “violent feudal theocracy” you speak of, and are ethnically, linguistically, socially, religiously and politically extremely similar–in may cases, identical–to “Old Tibet.” Television was only introduced to Bhutan in 1999 (after which, sadly, the crime rate rose).

    Bhutan is proof that the “old ways” are a completely valid and positive societal model–that neither abuse nor other forms of crime stem from Vajrayana Buddhism, Buddhist theocracy, a high percentage of children attending religious education institutions, nor from Himalayan social structures.

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  43. What I mean by that is that it’s a mistake to look at abuse, and say, “It’s because of tantra.” “It’s because of Buddhism.” Or, “It’s because of Tibet.”

    Abuse is about abuse–the abusive mindset, how to be on guard for it, and how to prosecute it when it’s encountered.

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  44. My grandparents lived in Dartsendo, Tibet throughout the 1940s (I believe they were also there for part of the ’30s). They encountered no such “barbaric feudal theocracy” in Tibet. They did, however, encounter quite a few Chinese girls back in Lanzhou, China, whose feet had been cruelly bound from childhood.

    They were robbed by bandits three times when traveling through China, yet not once in Tibet.

    The Anti-Shangrila Myth is no more valid than the Shangrila Myth.

    Rome has been Catholic for eons; amongst the cities of Europe, is/was it a shining example of the Golden Rule? Or could it simply be that humans are human, they try their best, and have a right to follow any religion they choose?

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  45. Ok, let’s try something a little simpler, and see if any of you apologists for primitive superstition can come up with an answer:

    If Tibetan Bhuddism is so wonderful why was Tibet such a barbaric feudal theocracy, or to put it another way: why wasn’t their society a shining example of all these supposedly enlightened principles?

    How can something supposedly wise and compassionate produce oppression and inequality?

    Why do so many lamas like Sogyal, behave like despots?

    And please: no feeble sophistry about rotten apples, babies and bathwater, individuals not the doctrine…etc., etc.,

    Come on, don’t pretend this question doesn’t exist , surely you can think of something……..

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  46. “BTT has implicated all of Tibetan Buddhism. With such a broad indictment, no one man can possibly be the focus.”

    Rubbish and a clear indication of your overly paranoid interpretation of anything that you perceive as an ‘attack’ on Tibetan Buddhism. BTT is very obviously about Sogyal Rinpoche. However, because it simply mentions his name, you immediately fly into defense mode. because of his association with HH the Dalai Lama.(who can do no wrong, period) You really cant see the wood for the trees can you Sheila/Saulaan. EIt seems impossible to you that someone can consider one single Tibetans behaviour as appaling without them leaping to the ridiculous conclusion that they therefore hate Tibetans, \Tibetan Buddhism, and work for the Chinese. Forget the sauce, its the green stuff you need to lay off-Paranoia reigns supreme

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  47. Actually, the first Tibetan mentioned by name in this article is Tenzin Gyatso, and the message clearly indicts Tibetan Buddhism in the west as a whole.

    The thrust of the article is not that Sogyal Rinpoche is an exception to the rule, but that he is nothing less than a perfect, shining example of what Tibetan Buddhism is in the west: a money-grubbing S&M factory.

    In its eagerness to overstate the Sogyal Rinpoche issue, BTT has implicated all of Tibetan Buddhism. With such a broad indictment, no one man can possibly be the focus.

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  48. BTW, it is also worth noting that in earlier ‘cultures’ than our own was determined, not by a legal limit but by sexual ‘maturity’, or when menstruation began.
    I suggest people take a look here http://www.avert.org/age-of-consent.htm
    at some contemporary ages of consent around the globe (Japan 12, Mexico 13) before using such a statistic to launch their attacks. The world hasnt always been politically correct, nor has it any obligation to confrom to our Western mores, no matter how civilised we might consider ourselves.
    Having said that, we need also ask ourselves why we are discussing this here: Has Sogyal Lhakar been accused of having sex with 12 year old girls? The answer is no.
    The fact is we are discussing this because there is now a concerted effort to bury testimony and relevant dialogue on this page by posting irrelevancies, here in the form of some persons personal crusade against tantra.
    I repeat, tantra in itself is a valid spiritual path (or it is according to its practitioners over the last 2-3000 years) that, like any other medium, religious or otherwise, can be used to facilitate abuse. The assertion that abuse did not exist before religion or that it will not do so if we destroy religion is a bigotted nonsense. People will use their power over others to control them in any situation if they should choose to do so-A TV host offering someone a place on a game show in return for sex is abuse-and the quiz doesnt have to be about religion.

    I am really sick and tired of asking people to stop smokescreening and stay on topic-THE PAGE CONCERNS SOGYAL RINPOCHES ABUSE OF POWER IN ORDER TO GAIN SEXUAL FAVORS AND TO ABUSE THE VULNERABLE=STICK TO THE TOPIC OR GO ELSEWHERE

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  49. Here is the whole story, currently taking place in Taiwan. It directly relates to our discussion here, in that the “underage girls” accusation is leveled over and over again at Tibetan Buddhism; yet it appears to have its genesis in a disgruntled Taiwanese Buddhist, whose organization is itself (according to people living in Taiwan) suspicious:

    https://forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.php?f=121&t=102003

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  50. I can find no translation of this particular text, nor, indeed, any reference to it whatsoever other than what you and your friend have posted.

    So the entire “underage sex” bit comes from a Zhengjue Buddhism evangelist who works daily to discredit Tibetan Buddhism, and who’s Buddhist center carries a massive sign in Taiwan, visible from the freeway, that reads “Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism; Lamas are not Buddhist.”

    And that is a case in point as to why we should never, ever believe anything without checking into it. You two have been responsible for several people losing their connection with friends and colleagues, based on this very dubious story you have spread around the world.

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  51. No Sheila, I don´t read Chinese, but a have an orthodox-buddhist friend, she is from Taiwan. And the qoute is probely from a translation of Fazun`s text. This group is working on a profund basis.

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  52. Btw Fazun passed away in 1980. Do you know when he wrote the translation which wasn’t published until 1986?

    http://www.thlib.org/collections/texts/jiats/#!jiats=/02/tuttle/b2/

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  53. Marte-Micaela, is this book available in English? Do you read Chinese?

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  54. I really don’t care who he is or isn’t; I only care whether the translation is correct, and for that matter, whether it’s actually a translation of *anything* Tsongkhapa actually wrote.

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  55. Is the dharma master Fazun a chinese spy? Your favorit topic!

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  56. Marte, I wasn’t yelling at you, by the way – I didn’t see your latest message come in until I hit “post comment.”

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  57. Alright, this is completely ridiculous. The ENTIRE discussion about “12 year old girls” and all that rot, best I can tell, comes from ONE CHINESE BOOK, published in 1986. Sorry for the shout-caps, but really, people.

    Tsongkhapa did not, it appears, write anything entitled “Extended Treatise on the Progression of the Esoteric Path,” in fact; however, a Chinese man wrote a book with this title in 1986, which claimed to be a translation of some of Tsongkhapa’s earlier work. Mysteriously, these “selections” from Tsongkhapa contain all kinds of references to underage girls.

    We are not the first victims of the Chinese propaganda machine, nor will we be the last. Sad as it is, I’m glad this discussion came up one more time – it was this time that pushed me to finally dig in and find out what this was about. I stand to be corrected if any additional info overturns what I’ve found, but so far this is what I’ve got.

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  58. And what is in the tibetan original of Tsonghkapas text?

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  59. Nor is there any mention of “girl.”

    You are referring to a version translated into Chinese by dharma-master Fazun, Wondrous Favor Publishing Co., 1986. Very interesting differences between the Tibetan original, and the (very recent) Chinese translation.

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  60. Marte, you are quoting from the English translation of the Chinese translation, correct? Because in the original, there is no result when searching for “sex” or “offer.”

    Click to access great_special_insight_tande.pdf

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  61. And certainly not in the Kalachakra tantra.

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  62. Marte-Micaela, who is the comment made by? This is very sad, because the rumors that have circulated definitely imply that this sick information is found within a tantra, and I’ve read some people say they even left their teacher over hearing about this rumor, when in fact it seems there is no such information in any tantra.

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  63. Sheila, it´s not in a Tantra, but in a comment to tantric practises. Here one quote from Tsongkhapa, he said in the Extended Treatise on the Progression of the Esoteric Path, Vol. 13

    “Someone who ask the teacher for empowerment should make offerings first. A curtain is used as a screen. The disciple understands very well that the teacher is vajrasattva. Wisdom mothers with complete samaya, whose genitals are healthy and who are virgins over the age of 12 etc., are offered to the teacher”. Just like the statement in the second chapter of Sutra on Great-Seals: “One should choose females who are most wise, virtuous, with slender eyes, having a wondrous dignified face, and aged from 12 to 16, or 20 if difficult to obtain. Females over 20 are used in other seals (mudra) because it will make all the stages of practice impossible to attain. One’s sisters, daughters, or wife are offered to the teacher.”

    Tsongkhapa, Extended Treatise on the Progression of the Esoteric Path

    The tantric texts talk about “Wisdom Mothers” etc., the comments describe the reality behind the euphemistc words.

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  64. But the “girl” part did jump out at me – if that exists anywhere, I am betting it’s an Indian source, not Tibetan.

    The most common summary I hear is that “The Dalai Lama uses the Kalachakra to teach people to molest children as part of religious practice.” It’s really high time this allegation was met head-on and cleared up. What tantra? What text? Who has taught this?

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  65. I’ve heard several people invoking this “12 year old girl” thing, relating it specifically to tantric texts and implying that the Dalai Lama teaches people to fondle children. Harbinger, Thao, etc., could you please give a reference to which tantra(s) this appears in?

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  66. Harbinger isnt just against tantra; the whole of religion sucks!!!

    “In Tibet, as in ancient India ( there are so many examples) an entire society was permeated by abuse,”

    Your damned right there are so many examples-problem with your argument is that nowadays there are plenty if societies NOT dominated by religious principles that are also riddled with abuse (or perhaps you think it doesnt happen in Russia or the US?)

    Your references to twelve year old girls may or may not be locateable in tantric texts. Just bear in mind that such texts emante from ancient india, where mortality occured in ones early thirties and marriage occured at ten years old. Times change, religion changes, society changes. The constant is abuse.

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  67. I have never heard of anyone doing this, and have never even heard anyone allege that anyone is doing this.

    The Bible refers multiple times to killing children, and God himself is quoted as saying he will kill children; however this has literally nothing to do with how Christians believe religion should be practiced, even though such statements are in their most holy text.

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  68. Harbinger, could you give a reference to where in a tantra it refers to 12 year old girls?

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  69. I read Miranda Shaw’s book “Passionate enlightenment”.

    She studied the originis of tantric teachings. There were lineages that went from mother to daughter. All ancient religions regarded sex as sacred and also positive, because the survival of human race depended on fertility of the earth, fertility of the women and so on.

    It was only through Christianity and other Middle Eastern religious systems that emphasize One Male God that everything feminine and female became rejected. Such a loss.

    I wish Tibetan Buddhism would change into a more feminine one, to it’s feminine origins.

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  70. One additional note for s puppet: : having re-read your posting above and its vicious personal attack on Marte. She’s obviously suffered, she’s speaking a foreign language, and she’s not defending abuse.

    So, whatever your opinion about the value of her contribution, you might try and read between the lines and practice some of your profound tantric wisdom and compassion before being so gratuitously nasty. Have some humanity for goodness’ sake.

    What sort of advert for Tantra is that? ( probably an accurate one)

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  71. In reply to s puppet:

    The problem with Sogyal is that he’s hiding behind a tantric mask.
    But remember,Tantra provides him with it in the first place.

    So, actually yes, sadly,abuse is inherent in all religions, and the only difference between Tantric and let’s say Anglican teachings would be that the more complicated and ‘mystical’ a doctrine is, the more dense and obfuscatory the type of sophistry available to justify the abuse.

    The reason abuse is inherent is very simple: Religion cannot function without a pyramidal power structure, this by definition is an imbalance of power, and as we know power corrupts. So yes, you’re right, abuse is a human problem and it would exist anyway, but without religion to hide behind, it appears for what it is and can be identified as such and dealt with in secular terms.

    These religious structures are created to bolster class systems, I suggest your read Jared Diamond’s ‘Guns Germs and Steel’ which provides an excellent brief anthropological explanation of their evolution, if you’re interested.

    In Tibet, as in ancient India ( there are so many examples) an entire society was permeated by abuse, a brutal theocratic feudalism existed because tantric explanations were invoked to justify it.

    The obvious question is: would Sogyal have opportunity and such license to abuse without Tantra to legitimize him in the eyes of those who follow it? If for example he was a social worker or therapist.

    Before modern secular societies evolved, abuse as a concept was unknown. Tantra originated in India, and with it the caste system, one of the most repugnant and enduring examples of apartheid the world has ever known.

    As mentioned earlier, there are detailed tantric descriptions of using girls as young as 12 for sexual practices, and this among so much other weird dysfunctional shit, If you’re going to be very selective and ignore this, yes of course you can claim it’s not inherently problematic, but that’s no different from the ‘Yes but they got the trains to run on time’ argument.

    It’s morally dishonest to ignore an underlying peversion that an ideology contains anywhere within it. Because it will inevitably will corrupt the whole.

    Would you really prefer to live in a society founded on tantric principles? I hope not.

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  72. Ditto my comment above-nothing to do with the issue of Sogyal’s abuse, just a collection of pseudo academic clap trap to support one persons war on tantra.

    I am beginning to wonder if Marte doesnt work for Sogyal-Think about it: she (if it is a she) plays the part of someone manifesting signs of mental illness (to which she has freely admitted) and makes statements concerning abuse that leave the reader in no doubt that, far from being a vicitim of abuse, she is simply a deluded acid casualty who is the prime player in her own,self created abuse fantasy-its all in her own mind.

    So how does that look from the outside?As if those who claim abuse at the hands of Sogyal are thoroughly deluded, mentally ill fantasists.

    Throw in a bit of anti Dalai Lama stuff and the result? Anyone who posts here is is an anti Dalai Lama, loonie.

    Convenient isnt it?

    Either way, the poster posing as Marte is unreliable-‘She’ is either mad or a liar. She certainly does nothing to assist the debate, indeed she devalues it with every post

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  73. Annother reference to the topic above of Andrej Znamenski, author of the book: “Red Shambhala: Magic, Prophecy, and Geopolitics in the Heart of Asia””

    “It might be shocking for many readers, but let me start by saying that Kalachakra-tantra has nothing to do with peace, compassions, and freedom. In so-called Tantric Buddhism it was a misogynistic power quest performed by male initiates to accumulate sacred power of particular Buddhist deities (lower seven initiations open for all) and, through blending male and female fluids (top secret initiations that involved sexuality), to eventually turn themselves into superhuman androgynous beings. Moreover, part of the Kalachakra teaching was a militant Shambhala prophecy, a call for a Buddhist holy war against enemies of Buddhism, which might sound equally shocking to hear. Before the present Dalai Lama borrowed from Gandhi’s teaching, none of his predecessors talked about non-violence as a virtue. All this might be useful to know before coming to the Dalai Lama event in Washington DC. For more details on Kalachakra check my recently published book “Red Shambhala: Magic, Prophecy, and Geopolitics in the Heart of Asia” and especially on-line “Critical Forum Kalachakra” hosted by Trimondi. This is not to offend His Holiness or his numerous American associates. Moreover, we need to commend the Dalai Lama for taking steps to adjust his religion to modern humanistic values such as world peace, ecumenism, feminism, environmentalism; why not to take a next step and openly explain to people what Kalachakra is? We have to be crystal clear: like any religion, Tibetan Buddhism has negative and positive sides.
    Andrei Znamenski, Associate Professor of History, Alabama State University”

    And now it is enough for the moment.

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  74. DI moderator-greetings! Can we do something about this posting-quite apart from the fact that it is entirely irrelevant (and bonkers!) it devalues the genuine contributions of those posters who have come here to open their hearts to others. Moreover, the Trimondis whose opinions are revered here are well know for their hatred of the Dalai Lama and their support for the worship of the demonic cult of Dorje Shugden. They profess views which are about as neutral as those of the Chinese government, indeed they are known to be linked to contemporary Tibetan charlatan ‘lamas’ (eg Gangchen) who have thrown in their lot with the Chinese for power and personal gain.

    Marte, you need to look for help from doctors, not lamas-you are far too cosmic and need to return to earth for treatment-maybe get a job?
    Beleve me, the saying ‘Its all in the mind’ may seem cliched but, in your case, it really is-Clearly you did not heed the warnings about the brown acid

    If there is any value in your posting it is that it demonstrates that,far from employing tantra to abuse you, your ‘abuse’ occured as a result of your own madness,Self inflicted psychological abuse doesnt really count IMO

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  75. Sorry, DI, it is as complicated as it appears here. Without such elucidations and coherences the motivation and the techniques of the perpetrators are left in the dark. And: It is all about Sogyal!

    Extrinsic Energy in my Heart

    Preminilary comment:

    When I had read this letter and the comments by Trimondi in June 2005, I understood for the first time, that I had been abused as a “women sacrifice” since January 2005. The knowledge about the coherences to all what I was faced to saved my life, saved my sanity and the health of mind. I deeply owe the woman, who shared her experiences and the Trimondis to be able to write about my own story. I never was successful to get in contact with her, but I hope she could get rid of the tantric bondages like I did

    I reflected my experiences in the lecture “Creation of a Multiple Personality through the Misuse of Trance- and Hypnosis Techniques in Tantric-Tibetan Buddhism.”

    This letter is for sure much more directly in his testimony as my analysis. But the content, the phenomena which are described are entirely identical.

    28/03/1999

    Dear MrsTrimondi,
    dear Mr Trimondi,

    first I would like to express my very sincere thanks to you and my appreciation for your great and profound work.

    Only due to your book “The Shadow of the Dalai Lama “I know now, with pleasure, what is going on with the “energy ball”

    While a one-week course of Sogyal Ringpoche in the summer of 1997 in Italy, whom I knew since autumn of 95, at the second evening there while a “Fire Puja” an energy-ball rolled in my crown chakra.

    Sogyal appeared as a shaman with a free upper body, a bone chain and a large crown with skull and crossbones.

    My internal question: “What is it?” was replied: “Protection.”

    On the last night there we heard a lecture by a Tibetan doctor, and Sogyal was sitting on a throne.

    Suddenly my heart-chakra was opened inside and I felt light. Then the speech abruptly ended. Something important had happened. Since then, I experience the constant presence of the yogi in me. The inner space has been split and now it is threatening!

    I’m apathetic, lethargic and have a buzzing in my ear as well as a strong heart- and parietal vibrations. In 1998, I could only work half a year, now I have to reduce my work. After I had read in your book, four days later my heart galloped and I heard “Now I’m totally in you!” I feel threatened by this strange energy that is alienating me from my life. What can I do about it?

    Is it possible that this strange energy in my heart is a sign of magical connections?

    Is my essence threatened?

    Can this strange power brace itself?

    In this emergency I am now, my strongest question is: How can I get rid of the massive impacts of this extrinsic energy?

    In October 1993 I met Sogyal Rinpoche in Garmisch-Partenkirchen at the conference “Humanistic Medicine”. Then my crown-chakra opened like a fountain. I had never experienced it before.

    In a retreat in Kirchheim 93/94 I asked him for a personal appointment to discuss this event. But I was not given.

    (I have the same experience with Nydahl and Trinley Thaye. They never talk about the secret transferences they give and they leave you alone in your desperation and fear.)

    Here in Kirchheim I encountered Buddhism as an active participant and intensified my interest, so I took part in courses. In the summer 1996 while a meditation course I was in a heartbreaking state due to a cascade of light into my crown-chakra.

    Again I met Sogyal Rinpoche in September 1996 at a conference. Something “wet” ran into the top of my head. At least June 1997 the ball of energy came while a “Fire Puja” inside.

    Three weeks later there was again a retreat, where Sogyal telepathically announced “I AM SECRETLY YOUR GURU!” And I felt something flowed out of me, my legs were shaking and it was as if the earth opens.

    What happened next is so improbable, shocking, scary. In the morning when I woke up I was totally exhausted, my period was to be absented. In December 1997 I went with a friend (she’s a doctor, a Buddhist, psychotherapist, and now in a psychotherapy clinic as a patient) to a 17 day retreat on the Borodbudur Stupa with a healer. There I was someone completely different. He used me as an intermediary to other areas.

    (That is what Nydahl did with me. He said: I was flying together with a strong and beautiful women through the space. Therefore “Dakinis” are called” Space Travellers”)

    They abuse my energy that I am now, only through your book, become aware.

    In 1998 I met him three times against my will. This is possible only by the energy ball that occupies my will, my ego, my entire being. In the summer in Italy, he sat down, with two Indians present, and put me in a trance. I acted on other levels, which was very scary for me (even on the graveyard!).
    At the end of September 98 an initiation with Rinpoche (annotherone than Sogyal) began. I knew him from Phowa course in 1996, where he carried out a huge Fire Puja for the dead, and my alarm clock stopped for one hour! He was very loving to me by the way.

    This course was on 30 September and on the 7th October my crown-chakra was nearly to be cooking, so I had to apply a cold cloth.
    while working.
    Late in the afternoon on 07.10., here at home, I was up to the 10.10. out of my body and mind. I have no reminiscence about the time.

    When I came back to awareness I heard: “Phowa” and my heart and sternum tremendously ached. I made an EKG and they found an inflammation of the sternum.

    The Lamas have a great power through their “Tantric rituals” and the relationship between those rituals practiced by the teachers who teaching in the west and the manipulations and their effects are still to be researched.

    If you know what to do, I am grateful.

    A warm greeting. ……………

    Our comment of the above letter:

    This letter is a very useful document that describes the impact of the Tantric rites to the energy-body of women. It shows that the inflammation of the candali (Kundalini), or “inner woman” by Tantric masters has quite a parallel in the outside world, in the ignition of a real woman and thus confirming one of the fundamental tenets we discuss in our book. For example, we write about the “Fire Sacrifyce of the Dakini” on page 102 of our book:

    … “Almost every Tantra is familiar with the symbolic burning of sacrificial goddesses “These represent all possible properties, ranging from the human senses to various forms of consciousness and also elements (fire, water, etc) and individual body aggregates are imaginated in the form of “offering goddesses” . By pronouncing a powerful incantation they al will find the “Fire Death”. In the so-called Vajrayogini ritual sacrifices the students several Inana mudras [imaginary woman] to a red god of fire, riding on a goat. The main goddess ( Vajrayogini ) appears there with “a red-colored body, which burns with the brightness of the ‘doomsday fire.'” (Gyatso, 443)

    In Guhyasamaya Tantra the goddesses melt even together in a fiery ball of light in order to serve as a sacrifice to the Supreme Buddha and where the adept also makes malignant women harmless through a fire: “Within a triangle you perform the Fire Sacrifice … If you have done it for three days, aimed at malignant women as target, then they are banned, even up to three infinite aeons. “(* Gaeng, 225)

    A “burning woman” named candal i(the opened Kundalini) plays at the Kalachakra initiations such an important role that we will devote an entire chapter to her yet. In this context we also describe the “Inflammation of the female energy”, the central event in the sexual magic of initiation of Tantrism ………. …….

    What intention is hidden now behind a fiery Dakini Sacrifice? The same intention as in all the other Tantric rituals, namely the absorption of Gynergie to establish the omnipotence of the yogi. The coveted elixir of female is to bear a specific name: The adept is calling it the “Lifehood of the Dakini”, the “Heart- Essence of the Dakini,” “life heart of the Dakini.” (* Herrmann-Pfand, 342)

    “The Dakinis were converted to Dharma protecters, after they have given they heart-life to the conqueror.”- said a tantric text (* Herrmann-Pfand, 204).”

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  76. Ha Ha, he is just my type! :)

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  77. No wonder if you were impressed by such a guy, that you became disappointed! :)

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  78. “bellaB, on April 21, 2012 at 11:24 am said:
    When is a woman abused?
    – If she accepts a position where she has sex with her teacher?

    No genuine Buddhist teacher would expect his students to enter into such a relationsnip-its about the power imbalance bella-why cant you listen for a change-Oh I forgot-you never listen, your only raison d’etre is denial”

    If you want to help women become more self aware, so that they know what they are doing (without regrets) then that is a good plan.

    I really don’t judge a woman who chooses that position as a consort of SR, if there are those? I bet most, if not all, are aware that he hasn’t proposed them marriage or ‘courted them like ordinarily men do’. I’m 100% sure he has not mislead any woman to believe that there was more to it and that he would fulfill their conventional expectations of a man. Conventional expectations also mislead women to live the idea of a ‘special’, a chosen, a dakini and so forth. When she isn’t able to identify with the spiritual ideal, there is disappointment. Those ideals are also self-deluding concepts. The reasons why he does what ever he is doing is not in my knowledge. I never asked him and nobody else have asked him either. It’s only about guessing, conventional expectations and trying to diagnose a person they don’t really know.

    The woman he had a relationship and a son with wanted to end their relationship herself.

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  79. This thread is about Sogyal abusing others. Like others, you may have been abused by those who may or may not, bearing in mind your obvious psychiatric condition, have used the excuse of tantra to facilitate that abuse.

    The issue however is not ‘how’, the issue is the fact that such occurred. I feel that you need to direct your energies towards preventing abuse. As it is, you are directing your energies to preventing tantra, despite the fact that, when practiced correctly, tantra is a valid spiritual path.

    Abuse is not ‘inherent’ in tantra any more than abuse is inherent in any world religion. On the other hand, every world religion can be distorted to facilitate abuse, be it between guru/chela, priest/disciple, imam, haaji’ Your attentions are therefore misplaced. Your solution to abuse is to ban religion. Ask yourself, ‘If I ban religion, will abuse cease’ There is only one answer.f You need to reframe Marte; at the moment you are driven by hatred and delusion and have misguidedly indetified the wrong cause of your suffering. Rethink and have the humility to know when you are wrong about something

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  80. S Puppet, with the same vehemence and logic Bellab could demand, we should stop discussing Sogyal´s abusing behavier, otherwise her freedom of choice of religion would be injured.

    I am victim of ritual abuse, victim of secret tantric practises and if those practises are components of your belief you have to sustain I make them open and explain, in which inherent structure Sogayal´s abusive behavier belongs to.

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  81. bellaB, on April 21, 2012 at 11:24 am said:
    When is a woman abused?
    – If she accepts a position where she has sex with her teacher?

    No genuine Buddhist teacher would expect his students to enter into such a relationsnip-its about the power imbalance bella-why cant you listen for a change-Oh I forgot-you never listen, your only raison d’etre is denial

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  82. And respect for the religious beliefs of others starts where? I love your attempt to impose your ‘liberal democratic’ values (here that means ‘anti religious bogtry’) by claiming I am bullying you.And you say you have human rights on your side? What about freedom of religious belief? Is that not a basic human right? Or have the formulators of the human rights charter got it wrong, ‘expert’?

    The secrecy required by tantric Buddhism may or may not be the pretext under which Sogyal abused others but that doesnt mean you can use this page as a pretext for launching into your personal war on tantra. I hate to agree with Sheila but the problem is not tantra, the problem is abuse, Your comments are irrelevant and I request that they be removed since they offend my religious sensibilities and have nothing to do with the Sogyal problem . I dont see Irish Catholics calling for the destruction of Catholicism as a result of its abuse scandals so why should you be allowed to hijack these pages for your personal crusade against tantra.

    I am simply asking you to respect my faith and not use these pages to further your irrelevant personal agenda. If you think Im aggressive, why not start attacking the Prophet Mohammed?-they would soon find you-now THATS bullying.

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  83. “the ‘Guhya’ means ‘secret’-thats how and why it works; so stop talking garbage about something you obviously dont even understasnd the first thing about-BTW this blog is about Sogyal and abuse, not your opinions about unrelated topics.”

    I will openly talk about secret structure in tantric-tibetan Buddhism, also a bit here in the context of Sogyal, who is practising it as well Nydahl did in my case.

    Don´t read my texts, if you don´t like them! But who do you think you are to order me to keep silence? In the west it does not work like in other cultures. We have a really culterclash here. On our side Democracy, Human Rights and Enlightenment, on your side secrecy, taboos,threats and the attempt to undermine my expertise. That are the methods of people like you. It´s not the first time I faced that kind of behavier.

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  84. When is a woman abused?
    – If she accepts a position where she has sex with her teacher?
    – She knows that he has other sexual partners and they have NEVER discussed equal status or monogamy in their relationship?

    If she steps into such scene – and later regrets and feels abused?

    I know I wouldn’t like to be in the scene in the first place so I do not take a step into that direction.

    I only understand women who are very young and do not understand what they involve themselves with (and complain afterwards), but older women: they can have their own choices and carry the weight of their choices.

    Victoria Barlow was his girlfriend and didn’t like his non-monogamous attitude. Then she hit the road. Right choice for her, but this never ending whining and lies about it?

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  85. Blah, blah blah, distract, distract, distract,smokescreen, smokescreen, smokescreen. PS Sogyal sexually abuses disciples and his position as a teacher ‘My ego’???? Think about it.

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  86. My ego is the victim of Buddhist teachings. It was not ready to succumb.

    I should contiunue my therapy and leave Buddhism as a feel good method behind.

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  87. And what secret means in Buddhist terminology? It doesn’t mean secret in English.

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  88. Marte
    In the term ‘Guhyamantra’, the proper name for Buddhist tantra, the ‘Guhya’ means ‘secret’-thats how and why it works; so stop talking garbage about something you obviously dont even understasnd the first thing about-BTW this blog is about Sogyal and abuse, not your opinions about unrelated topics

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  89. Whatever it is, Im sure you will deny it! On a related issue, has anyone googled ‘Sogyal Rinpoche Anonymous’-seems from this Youtube video that the French are taking things seriously, as Sanlkappa suggests. I await a reliable translation

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  90. Victims of what exactly?

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  91. Just my stream of thought at the moment, but it would seem that if UNADFI receives many accounts of abuse from victims, the sheer weight of testimonies could compel them to act. They could also maybe bare much of the burden in terms of cost, do a lot of the heavy hitting required for any action.There would also be the element of safety in numbers

    Or am I just getting ahead of myself here??

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  92. Thanks DI for your offer to translate!

    Drolma, I have posted the above on Tenpel’s blog also, it’s awaiting moderation.

    Maybe the UNADFI organisation could be helpful, particularly in regards to this comment:

    “…very concerned by what happens to Rigpa and particularly by the occurrence of abuse mentioned by all the testimonies and articles she has read. It suggeste to all those who have suffered all forms of abuse at the hands of SR and Rigpa, to send without delay their testimony. It guarantees to protect your anonimité, and the advantage will be that there will not be justified, nor be judged like this blog, where we lose a lot of time having to argue with that / those who use it site for their tendencies indulger narcicistiques! The time has come for action and a single state organization can support this battle is its role, its mission. Unadfi is equipped to fight against SR and Rigpa, this organization needs therefore to make it your testimony and, therefore, consider this as a call for them somehow.”

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  93. DI, real translations would be very useful if that’s doable? As Tiger Lily has been saying, networking is a very important step right now. This is spread over several continents.

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  94. This may also be of Interest, again from Les 3 Mondes. It seems that the french are now starting to take things very seroiusly and appears they have a legal avenue, described in the post below:

    http://troismondes.canalblog.com/archives/2007/10/07/6443357-p600-0.html#comments

    Contact Unadfi

    The best to get things done is to contact Unadfi. Catherine Picard, and their president responsible for the About Picard is very concerned by what happens to Rigpa and particularly by the occurrence of abuse mentioned by all the testimonies and articles she has read. It suggeste to all those who have suffered all forms of abuse at the hands of SR and Rigpa, to send without delay their testimony. It guarantees to protect your anonimité, and the advantage will be that there will not be justified, nor be judged like this blog, where we lose a lot of time having to argue with that / those who use it site for their tendencies indulger narcicistiques! The time has come for action and a single state organization can support this battle is its role, its mission. Unadfi is equipped to fight against SR and Rigpa, this organization needs therefore to make it your testimony and, therefore, consider this as a call for them somehow. To give you an example of work done Unadfi read Subsequently, better still go to their site where you can enjoy for yourself the extent of their commitment to the fight against cults and gurus like SR: “After a week of trial court to make history the jurors of the assize court of Ariège sentenced Robert Le Dinh, said Tang, 15 years’ imprisonment for acts of rape and sexual assault. Unusually, the verdict was harsher than the prosecution’s submissions. For the plaintiffs, which UNADFI, the sectarian nature of the group of Tang’s no doubt. The strength of the argument of the parties was to prove the civil sectarian concrete and not limitation. ” “Characteristics of sects according UNADFI: Indoctrination. control of thought. Turning dependence Pressures destruction Triple A destruction of the person, on the plans: Physical: poor diet, lack of sleep, hard work, dangerous medical treatments … Psychic: personality change, behavior and critical thinking, intellectual: narrowing of fields of knowledge outside the sect, Relational : Regression of communication skills, with close cuts, Social: break with society, this manipulation techniques using three registers: the cognitive technique: a message from seductive but simplistic, the follower is subjected to a real jam Skull, (multiple meetings, lectures, courses, seminars, studies, readings, auditions tapes, prayer) that will gradually make him lose his critical with respect to the theories, methods and practices of the sect. the behavioral technique, well known to psychologists or psychiatrists, who is to perform acts harmless at first, but increasingly time-consuming, causing a submission and dependence, resulting in loss of free will. emotional technique: the followers go through three phases – the seduction by the message, the leader, the group – the psychological destruction, – the reconstruction according to group norms. “Text from the site Unadfi If you acknowledge that you have lived some, or all three areas, please to contact them in writing to the address below and quickly show your experience, do not wait. They can help you with your speech, stop all these abuses. UNADFI: 130 rue de Clignancourt, 75018 Paris 01 44 92 35 92 Office hours: Tuesday to Friday 9:30 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. 2:00 p.m. to 5:30 p.m.

    This maybe of interest to Drolma et al, as they are gathering testimonies also, to make contact with UNADFI. It could be an important way to share information and see what the state of play is with the French. Just some suggestions that maybe well worth following-up on.

    Also there are some very recent posts at Les 3 Mondes. They are hard to interpet (google translate), but it appears it may involve minors and complaints to police. There is certainly a lot of distress apparent. If some one can clarify the translation, and post here that could be helpful??

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  95. WE do have French translators who could translate this blog for our readers. Could I ask them to do so and we will start a new thread to bring these relevant posts to an English speaking audience.

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  96. I’m not sure if people are aware but there is a whole other discussion on Sogyal’s depraved behaviour going on in French, on a site called “Les 3 Mondes.” Very similar types of issues and experiences as raised on the DI site, but (no surprise) with a lot more decorum, and most definitely a lot less denial and troll activity.

    One post that caught my eye in particular is this (please excuse the rudimentary Google translation):

    “Disturbing facts

    I want to tell a troubling that occurred several years ago when I was meditating retirement Lerab Ling.
    I had befriended a charming young lady, full of devotion, who came from Taiwan. It was his [her] first retirement (the last?).
    I was still sitting next to her and it became clear to me that it was SR very close attention: attention, attention and compliments … Particularly, SR told him that [s]he was so cute because it was the same size as him [her]. Comment that, despite my darkening of the time, I found it very inappropriate in the open during meditation.
    The morning of the last day, we were alone in a part of the site. I was a few feet from her when a man dressed in a monk, she came to say that SR wanted to see her and he was going to lead her up … She ran down the hill running.
    Since that day I can not forget and I’ve always wondered what had happened to her, once alone with him.
    Do not you find surprising that SR drive is done girls discreetly to his apartments? Where is the spirituality in there?
    Does anyone has seen this girl or have news of her? Thank you in advance.
    Ludivine (ex-Rigpa)

    Posted by Ludivine, January 23, 2012 at 21:02”

    If it’s true, and it seems consistent with many of the claims made, it is a clear example of the procuring process in action. It also blows a hole in Bella’s claim that one can ever get an audience with the great master.

    Here is the link: http://troismondes.canalblog.com/archives/2007/10/07/6443357-p600-0.html#comments

    If you wish to read more and don’t speak French you can translate to English using the “Google Translate” function.

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  97. S Puppet, I am glad we can read something of the secret teachings of Naropa on Wikipedia today. That means a process of demystification and this is the price the tibetan Siddhas have to pay when they arrive the west. No secret wordly transferences anymore, things become transparent and are looked from a rational view.
    No fear, no voodoo, no black magic works any longer!

    And what means a cuckoo? What about brown acid? I read it twice now and want to know, what you mean.

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  98. Whe you return from cloud cuckoo land perhaps? Didnt anyone warn you about the brown acid?

    “You can find a lot about the secret teachings of Naropa, one of the Great Siddhas, on Wikipedia.” LOL “Secret”, wikipedia!

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  99. Thank you, DI, I will think about.

    I know, how difficult it is to find western rational terms for secret and magical rituals. It is hard to explain, what the special reality behind this Thangkas is. One of the old tibetan masters, Tsongkhkapa, wrote a book: “The Extended Treatise on the Progression of the Esoteric Path”. The titel shows how they describe their own practises. It is all about old India yogi-practises like living without eating, invading into dreams of people and other so called “siddhis”, special powers which exists in altered states of mind and which can be controlled by the masters. You can find a lot about the secret teachings of Naropa, one of the Great Siddhas, on Wikipedia.

    I brought it here because I know viictims of Sogyal who violently opened their Kundalini or better he brought them into an altered state of mind where they desperatly don´t know, what´s going on.

    The person who falls a victim of such abuse stays paralyzed in many ways for years. It is impossible to find psychological resources to handle this trauma, it is impossible to find a language to describe experiences one is going through. One has to build up a knowledge to understand the variety of aspects of one own situation.

    I went through and I am happy to be alive and found obviously the language in abstract, dry and rational terms which made me understandable for my Therapists and other helpers as well as for the Police and the prosecution.

    I am looking forward to open a thread about Ole Nydahl and my experiences with him on DI!

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  100. Lucy Sky is Victoria Barlow Duhh

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  101. As someone who has been involved with Tibetan Buddhist tantra for decades, I can honestly say the above comment is the biggest load of hocus pocus, non-Buddhist mumbo jumbo I have ever read since the poems of Edward Lear. As for Sheila’s comments, these are some of the finest examples of distracting techniques I have ever perceived emanating from the mind of a troll for a long time.

    Whether or not it is tantra that Sogyal uses to facilitate abuse is irrelevant..I am quite sure for instance that Catholic priests have perverted Catholicism to facilitate abuse, but this does not mean Catholicism is abusive, only that it is possible to pervert it and use it as a tool to facilitate abuse. The same applies to tantra.

    The issue here is not how the abuse was facilitated, but rather who abused who; how pales into insignificance in relation to this.The whole issue of tantra may seem relevant but it actually serves to distract from the issue under discussion.

    Remember the man who refused to have the arrow extracted until he knew which bird the tail feathers came from and bled to death before he found out. Trying to establish the way the abuse was facilitated is like this

    You are all feeding the trolls

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  102. What we cannot see, are the secret samayas he did, the secret rituals he practises just in mind and how those could be described. I don´t want to be too detailed, only so far: In the left-handed tantric-tibetan Buddhism he represents you have to give samayas which obligates you to have sex every day. And according to the deep influence of magical thinking this behaviour brings not only the nicest girls but also money under your control. All those aims are powered by a very strong will enlightened normally have. This is the source of power and abuse and not a misconduct by a single person.

    As you know this blog is not a Buddhist site, but defends human rights. Could you or Lucy in non technical terms explain what you have written above. You may have noticed that the comments are becoming increasingly esoteric in form, and as a result taking us away from focusing on SR. If you would like to write a post about your own Lama we would publish it here as a separate thread.

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  103. Finnigan adopted stories from Barlow.
    Anon and Lucy from Finnigan.
    Fools follow Lucy.

    Go and meet him.

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  104. “Lucys description of his daily life is notable. He acts like a normal human and for sure not a good one. That is the reality”

    Lucys description follow the words and ways laid down by xxxxxxx.
    DI Moderation: No evidence removed
    Those are exact copies – and neither of them has a clue! It’s a slander machinery held by MF – and now Lucy, unless she is extension of M.F.’s being.

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  105. As far as we discuss power and abuse in Rigpa or better by Sogyal it is important to know, which practises he uses, which traditions he represents and in wich context those are to be set. And to understand that his behaviour is not an unethical violation of the otherwise terrific Vajrajana- or better tantric-tibetan Buddhism by a single one.

    MF and others, which are Vajrayana-Buddhists, came very quickly to the result, he is not a real realised on. That´s not true by far. Of course he is enlightened on the base of Tibetan Buddhism. We should ask: What does it mean? What are the characteristics of an enlightened one, is he so great and adorable as Tibetan Buddhism wants to tell us?And how does our projection works? Does this projection is identified by the delusion, enlightened are “good people” as we would expect according to our Christian based values?

    Lucys description of his daily life is notable. He acts like a normal human and for sure not a good one. That is the reality .

    What we cannot see, are the secret samayas he did, the secret rituals he practises just in mind and how those could be described. I don´t want to be too detailed, only so far: In the left-handed tantric-tibetan Buddhism he represents you have to give samayas which obligates you to have sex every day. And according to the deep influence of magical thinking this behaviour brings not only the nicest girls but also money under your control. All those aims are powered by a very strong will enlightened normally have. This is the source of power and abuse and not a misconduct by a single person.

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  106. We know exactly what you are doing it is called diversion

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  107. The subject is this:~ The imbalance of power and abuse of spiritual authority. The claim is that SR involves himself in this activity not just at one of his centres but at all. Those who have approached me mention that normally he does not try it on with locals but where they are out of their comfort zone, but we can get others to comment. Rigpa is an expression of SR, so asking whether others are doing this is really not the point. Here it is SR we are looking at. We are happy to bring other cases to light but not on this thread. Also we do not wish to have this abuse relativised by saying it happens elsewhere, that is not relevant.

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  108. I’m becoming less and less convinced that the point here is to warn people about Rigpa, but rather to accomplish something else. You’re not behaving as people would who are genuinely interested in dissecting an issue.

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  109. DI, the subject is Rigpa, is it not? Don’t we need to establish whether the danger being alleged in Rigpa is systematic, or confined mostly to one teacher?

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  110. DI Sorry you don’t see the strategy of deflection as you keep telling us about it! Tantra is relevant to this thread but not in the way Sheila is using it!

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  111. I work for public radio; we also encourage people, on the last day of a fund drive for example, to ‘spend big.” We also mention children often, “Share with your children the beauty of classical music,” etc. But it’s not because we are crass, we simply believe in what we’re doing, and love classical music ourselves, and are largely funded by public donation. Someone who was mad at us could call us “shameless,” but that wouldn’t be accurate. It’s not illegal or immoral to do something you believe in.

    I’m curious about the “Rigpa way” – do you feel there’s a Rigpa way, in the way that there’s an “NKT way,” for example? I hadn’t gotten the impression that Rigpa was that codified. Going back again to the concept that Sogyal Rinpoche is not at any given Rigpa center most of the time, do the teachers in residence use materials from a scripted Rigpa lesson plan, for example? Someone else mentioned earlier, I believe, that Rigpa members are encouraged not to study at other centers or with other teachers, but I have never gotten that impression, either–practically speaking, SR is not usually present at most Rigpa centers so that seems like a misconception to me.

    I thought Rigpa was more a network of individual Dharma centers which offer teachings from multiple teachings and traditions…are you saying you feel it’s more akin to NKT?

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  112. Bella, wake-up! It’s not too late. Rigpa is a sophisticated con job. This is not dharma (it’s drama). Dharma is truth. This is a lie.

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  113. Lucy, your description sounds exactly like a retreat I attended in 2010. Perhaps it was the same one, although it’s more likely that it’s the same stage-managed rubbish trotted out in every venue. I would also add to your description, Sogyal’s shameless hard-sell to spend up big at the Rigpa shop on the last day and the condescending advice to all parents on how to bring-up their children in the Rigpa way (indoctrinate while still young) but most disturbingly for me, was the seeming lack of any critical awareness from fellow students to the whole charade and the bullying and disgraceful verbal abuse towards other students. This loss of any critical/discerning faculty seems to be a common trait among Rigpa students, and the more senior they were, the more desensitised they appeared to be.

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  114. Lucy,

    or maybe it’s just your and xxxxx minds that are polluted with that stuff and you can think outside of that scene. I’m sorry for you two.
    DI Moderation: You are making assertions without evidence.Please do not make personal attacks.

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  115. Yes, Sogyal practices for many hours a day, and this is how:. He watches trash tv, lots of it, does what every one (except you) knows in the privacy of his home, makes a lot of demands on his staff, eats, watches xxxxx, phones people , has xxx with vulnerable girls, maybe chases some of them around his flat to hit them with something, maybe his back scratcher…..eats some more, to get a little fatter and work on his diabetes, possibly gets his hair dyed, more depraved xxx, eats again , more random abuse, travels to get to some other places where he does the same all over again, goes to a Rigpa center to make some cash, goes through the motions, humiliates a few students, makes the same unfunny jokes he’s made for the past 35 years or so and delivers some easy pre-digested sort of “teachings”, just the stuff you can get out of most self-help books, but at a very inflated price, because he has made himself a commodity, and people like you lot are helping his stock go higher.

    DI Moderation: You are making assertions without evidence. We will have to edit them out unless you can give evidence. Coarse discourse weakens your argument

    But the commodity is rotten because he’s a fraud.

    What you think is an introduction to the nature of the mind has nothing to do with it. It is, as people interested in researching this subject, have understood : a massive endorphin rush, that leaves you feeling high and kind of thoughtless for a while and that’s where the danger lies. You’re vulnerable , naive and want very much to believe it’s special and that it makes you special. That’s all.

    He puts pressure on the audience, Puffs himself up and says: “look into my eyes” He may shout “phat” loudly, but it’s all just a routine, it’s theatre. Staged tricks, that work on your expectations, your craving for spiritual experience, basically, your very desperate emotional needs.,

    He’s a kind of “spiritual” vampire. He builds up the expectation of the experience that everyone craves, they’ve paid good money to get it after all. There is no introduction to the nature of mind it’s just your projection.

    The real work, the ‘know thyself’ of the great philosophers of ancient times, has to be done by yourself I’m afraid, no magic tricks, no dramatic entrance, no charlatan whose bogus intervention isn’t going to help you in reality.

    Of course the instructor is going to confirm whatever experience you think you had, she’s paid for that, they are part and parcel of the Rigpa circus. They have nowhere else to go, they are totally part of the group mind-set, they have been absorbed into the machine that they helped create years ago. Rigpa is all they have.

    Do you think they’d ever say anything else?

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  116. Melong my comment is directly relevant to this thread. Tantric sex is one of the dodgy ploys used by the faux guru, Sogyal Rinpoche, to seduce the unsuspecting.You know, it’s the old, “this is tantric sex and you gonna get enlightened quicker” routine.

    Sorry you don’t see the relevance.

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  117. DI is now going to try to assist you to keep on the subject. You responded to Sheila thereby handing her the advantage to not deal with the topic here Abuse. It is literally a distraction. Resist temptation and it will flee. don’t engage and Sheila is talking to herself.

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  118. Sankappas attitude towards tantra is irrelevant here. The issue under discussion is Sogyal and sex abuse. Stop burying the issue in sidetracks and smokescreens. if its not about Sogyal and Sex, it doesnt belog here and only helps conceal the truth from view. Stay on topic or keep quiet

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  119. The problem here is straightforward ignorance and a serious lack of information. If you’re going to spout nonsense about Tibetan Buddhism and tantra, at least have the decency to do your research.
    There are detailed instructions in the tantras about having sex with girls as young as 12. It’s institutionalised paedophilia.

    So yes, the personality of the abuser is crucial but what we are dealing with here is a constructed, deliberately misogynist attitude to women as objects to be used. Whether this is tantra or disguised as tantra is completely irrelevant. Both are disgusting and should be repugnant to normal people.

    For goodness sake do some reading instead of wallowing in your own trippy, uninformed half-baked fantasies.

    It’s precisely this attitude that supports abuse.

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  120. “What you occupy your mind with, it becomes that.”
    – SR

    Thanks for the quote.

    Considering Sogyal occupies his mind with Sex, violence, massive amount of food, obsession with money and power, , and also mostly trash tv, porn; that is given us a good idea of what his mind has become.

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  121. Sankappa, where do you get your experience about tantra? How do you know it’s not effective as a practice? I was doing TANTRIC visualization practice intensively during that time when I got my experience about limitless love. My practice didn’t involve sex at all. Most of the tantric practice doesn’t involve sex.

    You can call my experience a hallucinogenic, but science doesn’t yet have an explanation for Buddhist practices, so I don’t pay attention to your view. On the other hand SR does hours of practice everyday. He has shown the nature of the mind to many people. I discussed my experience with a senior instructor and she said after my dream that she thinks that that dream indicates that I’m might be going to have an experience of the nature of my mind. She was a psychologist in her own profession. She said it before I had my experience, which was totally unexpexted at the time it happened, since I had been angry most of the day.

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  122. Sheila, I could say “black and you would say “white” that’s why I would not contemplate for 1 second getting into a discussion with you. I’ve studied the mode of your arguing and it is mostly bereft of logic.

    You are a troll of the worst kind.

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  123. Is tantra central to Catholic clergy’s sexual abuse of children? Is tantra central to the Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints’ abuse of women and girls? Is tantra central to alcoholics’ abuse of others (as well as themselves)?

    Abuse is abuse. Foisting it off onto anything other than the abuser, and the abuser’s nature, is a mistake.

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  124. Tantra, smantra…who cares, the Buddha never actually taught tantra anyway. People seem to forget this point. It was an import into Tibetan Buddhism from Hinduism. More importantly it’s not required for realisation, and it’s no more effective then any other route (I would strongly say less so, actually) as Tibetan Buddhists would have us believe. In fact it is central to most of the problems of abuse we are witnessing in Tibetan Buddhism at the moment, and hence the problem it seems to be having integrating in the West.

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  125. It’s absolutely true – tantra is not about sex. Anyone with a true and educated understanding of tantra knows this.

    As is always the case, abuse is primarily the result of an abusive nature. Physical abuse is not about “baseball bats,” verbal abuse is not about “lips” and sexual abuse is not about “tantra.”

    One of the chief mistakes in problem-solving is similar to a chief mistake in western medicine: mistaking a symptom for a cause.

    It is profitable, though – in fact, the larger part of the western medical industry derives its profits from flogging this misconception.

    Who derives profit from flogging the misconception that symptoms of abuse are a “cause?” If you could answer that question (granted, a difficult one), this conversation would be over, or at least have graduated to the next phase.

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  126. Remember folks resist the temptation to comment:

    Tantra is not about sex any more than psychiatry is about baseball.

    This comment has nothing to do with the theme of this thread namely The imbalance of power and abuse of spiritual authority.
    We will move it along with other tantric distractions to the DI forum in due course

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  127. Tantra is so very misunderstood. It is not about sex, nor is it particularly Buddhist or even religious, although religions, including Buddhism, employ aspects of it.

    In one explanation given by the Dalai Lama, as interpreted by Christopher B., the author of “Tantric Christianity,” tantra is “a means by which we actively change how we see ourselves, our world, and our relationship with the divine.”

    A simple, secular example of tantra is the type of visualization used in sports training: imagining oneself standing at the free-throw line, successfully making the shot (without actually shooting), is tantra.

    I suppose you could say the above is example of “directing” the mind, through visualization. A second aspect of tantra is “redirecting” energy, often called “transforming.”

    To use a sports example again, this would be akin to a baseball coach who is helping a kid on the team who has anger issues — “When you feel yourself getting angry, use it! Put it into the bat!”

    Buddhism is very like psychiatry: both teach that there is a time and place to try and calm yourself down, dilute the anger and let it dissipate; at other times, it’s therapeutic to redirect the anger into something non-harmful (hitting a ball out of the park, chopping some wood, etc.)

    I think it’s safe to say that Tibetan Buddhist tantra would have us redirect that anger (or passion, or other strong emotions) in an even more specific way, for the purpose of deepening our meditation.

    You don’t have to use tantra for meditation or for anything spiritual at all, but when Buddhism refers to tantra, that’s generally the specific use of tantra it is referring to. Tantra is not about sex any more than psychiatry is about baseball.

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  128. Well, I guess ‘the altered state’ can have many forms. Probably the balanced one, the one they search for is not scary, but a deep recognition or what ever. But I do agree that in yogic practices that include physical things (like sex, could be?) there might be danger if people don’t know what they are doing and what is going on. Also unusual breathing or holding breath can cause sudden reactions.

    I would recommend slow advancement and a teacher who knows about energy. SR has never advertised himself to be someone who works with yogic methods. Grounding is his first priority that comes up all the time.

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  129. Sorry, yes I do, as far as the transformation is just a phrase and not the result of a constantly altered conciousness like DL said and this would require Tantra, Baby, you can sit as long as you want and worship your holy holy, you never will reach it as a never ending state. And even then it depends on special ethics and personalities of human to realize it.

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  130. So, how is it somehow inferior when you transform anger into compassion?

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  131. Well said, Luzy and Harbinger!

    Bellab, it´s a real cruelty to read such stupid things about Tantra. This is only told to inferior developed people, the other one listen and experience the “real thing”.

    Like DL said in Harvard:

    “When we experience subtler level of minds, this level of consciousness can then be transformed into wisdom that understand is emptiness, selflessness.In order to do this, first the practitioner has to stop the grosser levels of consciousness,and to do this, it is necessary to bring about the change of the movement of the white and red basic constituents. This is where sex becomes involved. The strongest change in the level of consciousness that can be utilized by a practitioner occurs during sex. Because of this fact, sex is used as a technique of tantric path.”

    Read more:

    http://marte-micaela-riepe.blogspot.de/2011/10/what-is-in-kalachakra-tantra-commentary.html

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  132. Tantric teachings and practices are about transforming the mind. Do you remember from your basic Buddhist teachings?

    Antidote to jealousy? – Joy.
    Hatred and fear? – Loving kindness.
    Attachment? – Equanimity.

    Tantric practices include visualization of deities. Padmasambhava has taught that.

    “The wrathful heruka Vajrakilaya is the yidam deity who embodies the enlightened activity of all the buddhas and whose practice is famous for being the most powerful for removing obstacles, destroying the forces hostile to compassion and purifying the spiritual pollution so prevelant in this age.”

    “Tara – ‘She who Liberates’ — a female deity associated with compassion and enlightened activity. There are different forms of Tara, such as the Eight Taras who Protect from Fear and the Twenty-One Taras, but the most popular are Green Tara, who is associated mainly with protection, and White Tara, who is associated with longevity.”

    “What you occupy your mind with, it becomes that.”
    – SR

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  133. Sheila,

    You really haven’t been paying attention have you? Perhaps you might try to think logically about this:

    If the advanced practice of tantra is to control the mind, it doesn’t seem to work, does it? Otherwise why exactly would so many lamas, who are supposed to be so good at it, be so greedy for sex, food, money, power, prestige and adulation?
    Why do they get so angry and petulant about trifles?

    And don’t bother with all the usual crap about this being skilful means, crazy wisdom and that in reality they’ve transcended all that.

    Crazy wisdom was dreamed up by Trungpa to justify his gross behaviour, Sogyal is so obese he obviously couldn’t even transcend his lunch and let’s not even bother mentioning the rest of his gross behaviour.

    Intelligent people usually understand that what people actually do is a better guide to who they are than what they say.

    If you read the description of the results of certain practices, they are indistinguishable from the effects of psychedelic drugs, temporal lobe epilepsy, the manic phase of bi-polar disorder or schizophrenia.

    If you’ve never had any weird experiences, it obviously means you haven’t practised long or hard enough.

    Control the mind indeed, what utter boxxxxxx!

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  134. Sheila,

    Let me explain this for you. Read carefully and do your best to understand:
    It means do not speak about something you’ve never experienced. That just demonstrates your arrogance and stupidity. She is more than justified in telling you to shut up because you’re just being insensitive and what you’re doing is far worse than rudeness. Talking confidently about something you’re so obviously ignorant of is a sure sign of childish, immature and self-absorption. If children misbehave it’s certainly not rude to tell them to be quiet. It’s educational and you should be grateful.

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  135. And,Sheila, to overwrite your classlessness about the issue Lucy and I brought in you open a new topic about no one wants to argue about.

    KEEP YOUR MOUTH xxx.

    Moderation, on annother blog you removed all posts without any reference to the subject. Could you please go on with this tradition?

    Sheila may be funny by night, but while the day she is unbearable.
    DI We will remove you if you continue to use abusive language like this

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  136. Marte-Micaela, you shouldn’t tell other women (or anyone) to “keep their mouth shut.” Isn’t that the same thing you accuse these men of doing (telling people to keep their mouth shut)? It’s just plain rude, and doesn’t help anything at all.

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  137. I mean, she can if she wants to – but it would be a significant act, and telling.

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  138. Yes, keep your mouth xxxx instead of talking about topics you don´t have any experiences with.DI Of that which I do not know I cannot speak-L Wittengstein!

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  139. From Alexander Nevsky:

    “What worries me however in Mary Finnigan’s writing is that she criticizes everybody but Ole Nydahl and Karmapa Thaye Dorje. No word of criticism about these two. And The Guardian clearly promoting Ole Nydahl’s book…. What’s going on here?????”

    Does anyone know whether this is accurate?

    Mary Finnigan does criticize Orgyen Trinley; does this mean she has officially and publicly taken sides in the Karmapa issue?

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  140. Keep my mouth shut?

    Wow.

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  141. Dear Lucy,

    yes, I am back on earth now, but it was a hard work.

    The consequences for nydahl, as I explained on Rickrossforum a few days ago:

    I am accusing Nydahl of gravious bodily harm. And the prosecution is still investigating because of this accusation according to the different reports I have got. No word about sexual abuse. When you suffered by a violently opened Kundalini – Bardo is an an equivalent for “open Kundalini” with some special forms- your cerebral metabolism is affected and for ever changed. That´s the fact and you can prove it. And nothing else but this fact is the basis of my accusation.

    What I did, and it is the first time ever, is to make this hidden Tantra-techniques actionable. And it is a miracle, that the prosecution followed me until yet.

    So many victims who are abused by the so called “golden child”!
    If you read in German, look at this post on my blog:

    http://marte-micaela-riepe.blogspot.de/2011_11_01_archive.html

    The title is: Strange Energies in my Heart and it is commented by the Trimondis. Could someone translate it into English, so that more people understand, what´s going on?

    And Sheila, whenever you would be target of those transferences you for sure would vanish behind the walls of psychiatry according to your obsessive and paranoid mind. So keep your xxx xxxx (Please avoid abuse and take Lucy’s advice and just ignore irrelevant comments. You are again within 12 hours of being asked to be cool hot again-DI) and don´t speak about things you only know by hearsay.

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  142. David Eastman has an interesting explanation of kundalini: “Kundalini Demystified”, Yoga Journal, September 1985, p.39, California Yoga Teachers Association.

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  143. When one meditates one can feel energy moving in the (subtle?) body. I know a person who never did any yoga or meditation and experienced kundalini rising. That energy is there weather you are part of Rigpa or not, Buddhidt or not.

    I did ask once about my feelings of that energy from SR. He responded (like I was told that he always does) that we should ask from people who are experienced on that field. End of discussion. He never emphasize on those experiences. He always repeats that we should be grounded.

    Body like the mountain.

    Mind like the sky.

    Heart like the ocean.

    – That is what he teaches.

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  144. I have to disagree strongly – tantric practices are not designed to disrupt the mind. The point of tantra, and many Buddhist mind practice, ultimately, is to gain mastery over the mind, so that instead of being at the mercy of things that disturb it, you are skillful at bringing it to its natural calm state, over and over again.

    It’s like working with muscles – when watching someone exercise or weightlift, it may look as if the person is trying to “disturb” their muscles, and certainly, when practicing, it’s true that muscles experience pain. However, causing pain to the muscles isn’t the point – the point is to gain strength, flexibility, and control over the muscles, which eventually leads to less pain.

    Or think of working through a sore spot on your back or spine – the stretching and yoga may hurt in the moment, but ultimately it prevents greater pain later in the day which you would experience if you hadn’t worked with your back. Instead of hiding from pain, ignoring it and letting it get worse, you purposely cause your back small, controlled amounts of pain (during stretching) because, unfortunately, this is necessary to prevent greater pain later.

    The nature of this human life includes pain – unfortunately we can’t escape all of it. But we can tame our minds to be less afraid of it, as we tame our bodies to be more skillful at handling it.

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  145. Dear Marte,

    It’s true that some practices can disturb. But, you shouldn’t worry because like every thing else, the effect will eventually wear off, providing you try and resume a normal life and as you know, distancing yourself from that nonsense is crucial. I’m sure you’ve experienced that yourself, you sound fairly down-to-earth.

    I know because that happened to me and many others too. We experienced various degrees of distress and in my case a massive panic attack which lasted several days following a retreat with Sogyal. Over the years a lot of people experienced this and if they also were mentally fragile to begin with, they always got worse, there were suicides.
    I will explain more later about why and how this happened.

    Tibetan tantric meditation practices as you posted so appropriately recently, were developed in Ancient India purposely to disrupt the mind. It’s closely related to drug-taking which was prevalent all over Asia.

    The risks are real. Not so long ago, the Tibetans believed mentally ill people were possessed by demons. Most of them still do. The DL and all the Dorje Shugden nonsense shows how medieval and superstitious they really are, hidden behind all that ‘science of the mind’ crap.

    Their understanding is that primitive, and therefore dangerous. Lamas are simply not equipped to deal with the consequences of their actions and how they affect others. They are incapable of assuming their responsibilities and are mostly indifferent. This is narcissism in action.

    This is the reason that they never condemn one another, no matter how unqualified and abusive Sogyal may be, the other lamas will always support him because they get good ‘offerings’ and this includes the DL. Show me the money…..

    Sogyal is particularly inept at dealing with serious distress, in fact, it’s worse than that and again more on this later.

    I’m sure this will upset the trolls, but I think we can simply ignore them from now on.

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  146. “Also if you have made the point before why repeat it.”

    You mean, like 32 separate entries on “RIGPA”?

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  147. “DI Moderation: This is not a dumping ground for your scrap book. Please just give the
    link and make your own comments, otherwise we will delete pages of text. Use a link to make a point not to show your lack of ability to
    argue your own case.”

    This is an important piece of evidence to the HH Sakya Trizin case that has been discussed here along with SR case.

    Do I have to repeat my opinion about it? Or about Barlow or her reliability as a witness to anything?

    That statement says it all. I also think it’s good to have it all copied here, so that it can and will be read by all – and also by future generations, so that they can think twice which comment to take seriously and which not. Internet gossip is not reliable as a source. We neither need to discuss VB case further. She can be dismissed as a source of information both in BTT and the documentary.

    DI: Yes where the evidence is there as as a link with your comment that is fine but not a long rambling piece just left there not referenced on its own is not. Also if you have made the point before why repeat it.

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  148. Not for you, bellab, but for Harbinger and others here again the preliminary comment of the lecture I hold in front of Psychiatrists and Psychotherapists:

    “The Emergence of a Multiple Personality by Abuse of Trance- and Hypnosistechniques in Tantric-Tibetan Buddhism”

    I wrote this lecture in 2008 under extremly bad conditions at the time, for example I did not recall me as the person I had been, a major damage, if not a total one of my short-term memory had entered, an experience of what many people have, who where most exposed to repeated traumatic stress. The ability to abstract thinking was severely restricted, most of what I wanted to say had to be written off the “Quellen” (sources) in order to be able to make sense of what I wanted to communicate.

    The objective of the female sacrify was exactly that: to become a depersonalizsed zombie as a pure receptabel of the transferences I should represent, in my specific case the transferences of the Vajrayogini, due to this my Bodhisattva-name was “Highest Wisdom”. During an inauguration of the new opened buddhistic center in Berlin Ole Nydahl named me or better the empty shell I was “Dorje Phagmo” too, the Tibetan name of the Varayogini.

    Today I know the state I was pushed in is the Bardo-state – its phenomena have not gone away until yet- which means one of the secret transferences of Naropa, I quote from Wikipedia: The praxis of the six Yogas implies, caused by its extremly powerful and energetic emanations, thus its specific development of effects and especially its far-reaching consequences, a very high degree of meditative ability and spiritual knowledge.

    (I did not have that at all. I liked to meditate but was much too lazy for the Nöndro-practise and all the other excercises like mantra-counting and so on. Why should someone tantalise herselves that much?)

    The experiment to perform wholly or partly the six Yogas of Naropa, without any suitable basics as well as instructions and support may be possible but hence there can emerge fatal complications as an irreversible damage of ones physical and psychic systems.”

    Leaving aside that I am not a devotee of any secret teachings at all, it was irresponsible, inhumane and criminal for Ole Nydahl and the so called Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje to involve me into such a transference, without my consent.

    As I said in other places: They abuse people, above all the women, as material for their own so called way of enlightenment.

    Hit the road, Nydahl, you never come back!

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  149. DI Moderation: This is not a dumping ground for your scrap book. Please just give the
    link and make your own comments, otherwise we will delete pages of text. Use a link to make a point not to show your lack of ability to
    argue your own case.

    http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan/msg/057527cb89a9ea7f

    October 25, 1999, 10:00

    This is a reply and clarification to all the people who have read and
    contributed to the discussion thread that has been going on for the last
    few months on this message board. It was very perturbing for me to come
    to know and to read such fabricated and malicious stories about His
    Holiness Sakya Trizin …..
    If any more clarification is needed do
    email me. I am at wangy…@hotmail.com

    Tsering Wangyal

    25th October, 99

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  150. And here’s another post from Finnigan where she doesn’t approve of VB to post her story about HH Sakya Trizin. Still VB can be a source for ‘information’ both in the documentary and BTT blog. Weird.

    http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan/browse_thread/thread/c4c2f08356a8ec0a/b28979b1e5ca0fcb%3Flnk=st%26q=nickyskye%2B1999%26rnum=1%26hl=en?pli=1

    Mary Finnigan

    > > *Information about the encounter were requested by Henry Chia. Nicky
    >> > replied to him in detail via e-mail. She cc’d it to me. Details of
    >> > Nicky’s encounter with ST have not been made public in this or
    >> > any other forum.

    >To reduce speculation, perhaps the info can be made public.

    I am not in a position to do this — and even If I were, I do not think
    it a good idea to plaster intimate details of a lama’s sex life all over
    the internet. This thread was triggered by Henry Chia passing on a
    private e-mail to ST’s secretary, probably without making it clear that
    the material in it was confidential and had not been made public. Henry
    is the source of the confusion. Also NS, did not consult me before she
    wrote about her experience to Henry. If she had, I would have advised
    strongly against doing this. I am cc’ing this message to ST’s sec.
    Mary

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  151. January 13, 2004

    Dear Tiger Lily,

    http://www.american-buddha.com/am.learn.11.htm

    I didn’t find comment that was signed by her. I have still all the reason to believe she is Victoria Barlow.

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  152. Sheila: “That means asking hard questions, as I’m sure Mary felt she was doing when she questioned the genuineness of that woman’s post.”

    Mary has asked hard questions. To prove it she invited Victoria Barlow to show up in the documentary. (This is sarcasm.)

    DI: “According to a witness at the Inform Conference I attended in 1997 it occurs at them all. The Irish not in Ireland and so on according to her testimony.”

    It was about mental abuse. As you can also see, people are different and some consider something as mental abuse which others consider ‘training’. And since you obviously do not understand the concept of emptiness and do not probably accept it, you couldn’t have a clue what Buddhists talk about when they are watching their thoughts – also in action.

    Rigpa people are really very nice people. They would never act in the way it is described in the BTT blog. There is no systemic abuse of anybody. The organization doesn’t support any abuse. They teach kindness.

    DI took the BTT blog as certainty. He was not the one who accepted to publish my response. No way! Actually if I was an abused person he would be the last one to talk to. But you know it from your own experience Sheila too.

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  153. The spiritual roots of the Irish are in the soil, and have nothing to do with the church.

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  154. Yes you do not get it. SR has an Empire Rigpa and one of his outposts is in Ireland. Sr Stanislaus Kennedy and Dr Tony Bates are well known for their mindfulness but not for mindfulness in checking out who they are having a relationship with. In general the Irish are currently on a massive retreat from their spiritual roots aided and abetted by the climate of abuse which is still at the early stages of grief. There is a market for this form of mindlessness, as Bhagwan Rajneesh use to say

    “Leave your mind at the door.”

    No I was not at it for 22 hours, rather I have unlike you being hard at work and have squeezed every inch of out my time and have found the mindlessness of the escape from reason hard to observe, in other words have been reading this from top to bottom. I like Tiresias have been observing all this stuff.
    My advice is from us to those leaving comments here as moderators as following:
    If Sheila or Bellab leave a relevant comment here on the subject of abuse by Buddhist leaders with their students, or issues to do with the imbalance of power and the abuse of spiritual authority then respond. Many have claimed that they would never come back for more, but were tempted beyond their capacity. Commenting is a spiritual discipline and some of you need a diet. Count to ten and refuse to say a word. Let us see who can be the most disciplined? I am going to sleep but this is usually the time Sheila goes out at night to meet Bram!

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  155. Dude, it took you 22 hours to find the advert. o_0

    And I rue the day I brought it up, for now it is I who have risked interfering with someone’s healing experience. Shame on you, Mike Garde, for making your own work that of ruining others’.

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  156. The Healing Power of Presence
    — with Sr Stanislaus Kennedy and Dr Tony Bates
    Many writers and practitioners have proposed that the root of all
    psychological problems is our difficulty in letting be, what is already there.
    We struggle with our experience, trying to push away or deny whatever we
    find painful of threatening. This retreat will enable us to explore difficulties
    and befriend what is broken in us. We will practise letting go stories and
    explanations for the way we feel, and choose instead to be present with our
    experience, as it is, with an open heart. Fee: €210 Conc €160 | please note this 2-day
    retreat begins at 10am on Friday 18th and ends at 4pm on Saturday

    Click to access DB_programme_2012_screen.pdf

    Yes Sheila it is interesting that dzogchen beara event was not on the rigpa site.
    Will now contact the two speakers as I did the former President.
    We will now get on with sleep, why did you not just make it simple send me the link.
    show me the money.
    Now no sneaky posts while I am asleep

    Like

  157. Elodie=MaryCorboySqaured [sic]?

    Like

  158. “E=MCsqaured!”

    Case in point.

    Like

  159. I also think “We see into your complexity via Denmark” ought to be on a T-shirt, as well as featured in the next Dr. Who script.

    Like

  160. E=MCsqaured!

    Like

  161. “We see into your complexity via Denmark.”

    I believe I did say something was rotten there, earlier.

    This conversation has taken a distinctly Irish and unBuddhist turn, lol.

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  162. However you were not one of them… Fade away dissolve and quite forget—you do not get it
    You need mindfulness and remember the Mission to Buddhists from your youth. We see into your complexity via Denmark

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  163. But it’s 7:30 here and god knows how late there, so it’s likely yourself quaffing the altar wine, and not me ;)

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  164. DI, in the time it took you to question the “assertion” 10 people likely Googled and found it.

    I don’t understand your last bit.

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  165. For example, Sister Stanislaus Kennedy and Tony Bates will be leading a weekend retreat at Dzogchen in May; surely you’re not saying these teachers are abusive?

    Omg DI, you’re the “watchdog group,” do your own work. I’m not handing the poor woman to you on a platter if you’re too lazy to spend 10 seconds looking it up. I feel bad enough hooking her up to you at this point.

    Perhaps you have built a web of deceit and when asked to give evidence of your assertion you change the subject!
    Were you mixing up this so called situation in Rigpa with this

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2012/0410/1224314560853.html

    too much orange juice? The orange Order or was it a monk I saw confused with a person incredibly contested by desire? Hiding behind the safety of celibacy but wanton as a Chinese soup!

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  166. Tho I did laugh at your “more than orange squash” dig.

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  167. DI, you’re obviously oblivious (try typing that 3x fast, eh!) to how your own blog works. If a long-ish post comes in, the person was likely typing it up for some time, and another post may have come in the meantime.

    On a technical sidebar, it would help if there were a “reply” function so we could follow threads a bit easier. Is this possible?

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  168. Omg DI, you’re the “watchdog group,” do your own work. I’m not handing the poor woman to you on a platter if you’re too lazy to spend 10 seconds looking it up. I feel bad enough hooking her up to you at this point. And what is w/the orange references…are you on some kind of Loyalist/Republican tangent?

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  169. What has this to do with Bates and Stan? Are you on some form of stream of unconscious!

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  170. This is the post I’m referring to:

    “Survivor, on July 6, 2009 at 8:13 pm said:

    Dear friends,

    I wouldn’t normally respond to posts on the internet and certainly not tell my personal story, as I’m about to. But this time there seems to be a need for that, even though it’s painful for me to tell it…I was especially on guard, because I had been badly traumatized. As a child – actually I had been brutally gang-raped at age 8. Needless to say that I had grown extra sensitive antennas to any sexual vibes coming towards me and always erring on the side of feeling threatened.”

    To which Mary’s response was:

    “Mary Finnigan, on July 6, 2009 at 8:46 pm said:
    Apologies if this seems cynical — but I doubt the truth of Survivor’s story.”

    That’s what gets my goat about this place. Some are allowed utter impunity in disbelieving others’ stories, saying threatening things toward them, implying they can find them thru their IP, telling them to “shut up,” etc., and yet those of use who remain at least somewhat decently behaved are censored and/or told ickily to “shut up.”

    This place is such a farce, yet I’m drawn to it like moth to flame, partly because the misinformation is so infuriating and partly because, even tho she can take care of herself, I’m loathe to leave BellaB here alone suffering your hideous treament. I honestly don’t know how she’s put up with it – a better Buddhist than I, I guess. I’m sorry, but this place brings out the worst in me.

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  171. You wrote Sheila:
    Submitted on 2012/04/18 at 3:15 am

    For example, Sister Stanislaus Kennedy and Tony Bates will be leading a weekend retreat at Dzogchen in May; surely you’re not saying these teachers are abusive? They are both well known for their work in helping people of all ages find peace and healing through mindfulness and meditation.

    Could you show us where Tony Bates has a retreat with Sister Stan at Rigpa West Cork in May there is no evidence for this on the Rigpa web site?
    Stop the nonsense about slander you were on more than orange squash last night which retreat are you referring to? Give us the link
    conference =retreat or gathering or retreat Shall I walk on the beach shall I eat a peach. April is the cruellest month I know!

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  172. DI, they are not speakers at the Rigpa event, they are the Rigpa event. Sr Stan is Irish Catholic and Sogyal Rinpoche won’t even be on the same continent. You lot are jeopardizing people’s livelihood with your slander.

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  173. I met Ole Nydahl at a Conference in Aarhus Denmark in the early 90’s he was already well on his way to living outside the Buddhist ethical circle.
    He had his secretary with him, female you would have to say. Fade away dissolve and quite forget …….

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  174. “People who have a role in reconciliation tend to be too open to those that abuse the rights of others. ”

    I don’t know…that would mean that since psychiatrists play a role in people’s reconciliation that psychiatrists are too open to those that abuse the rights of others; I find that theory iffy.

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  175. Finally; so you are saying abuse happens at multiple Rigpa centers? At the hands of the same person, or multiple teachers? That’s the main question: are multiple teachers abusive, or only one (in your opinion)?

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  176. What the hell is an orange flute? Is that some kind of drug reference? What conference are you asking about?

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  177. According to a witness at the Inform Conference I attended in 1997 it occurs at them all. The Irish not in Ireland and so on according to her testimony.
    I talked to her a few months ago and she is now clearly over the abuse but it does seem to go on in more than one of the franchise outlets of SR!

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  178. DI, what on earth are you on about.

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  179. Anyone can be duped even the DL was conned by the founder of Aum in Japan. Our former president opened the centre before realising she had a problem. People who have a role in reconciliation tend to be too open to those that abuse the rights of others. Mandela was used by Scientologists and John Paul 2 was taken in By Maciel!
    It is not a commentary on the people taken in, that could be anyone of us but rather the deviousness of those that take them in!

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  180. Drolma, Victoria Barlow entered here, as did another woman (trying to remember her name…back on one of the first threads)…Mary’s was the first response, and that response was that she didn’t find the woman’s story of childhood abuse “believable.”

    The main heading for all these topics is “RIGPA,” and as such is a place for (among other things) discussions about what is and isn’t taking place there. It is fair–and in fact, justice demands–that we examine the issue and try to understand what is happening. That means asking hard questions, as I’m sure Mary felt she was doing when she questioned the genuineness of that woman’s post.

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  181. Could someone in Madison not effect a citizen’s arrest and get Sheila to play the old orange flute at Rigpa centre for six months. The auld triangle goes jingle jangle!

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  182. Conference?

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  183. Yes you call her and when you give us the information as to whether they are speakers at the Rigpa event we will send them the same briefing document we sent to President McAleese in 2009

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  184. DI Moderation: Perhaps Sheila you could give us the link to the Conference you are referring to? There is no mention of it on the Rigpa site.

    http://www.rigpa.ie/

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  185. Would they allow people to enter the shelter who would denigrate her claims of abuse? There us no other concern here, so you can both calm down.

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  186. Sheila and Bella, just a thought for you both. When a woman enters a shelter, would those who work there ask her to prove she has been abused before giving her shelter?

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  187. “Sogyal Rinpoche threatens people!” [Sheila, I can see your IP, you know]
    “Sogyal Rinpoche silences women!” [DI Moderation: Selectively Removed]
    “Sogyal Rinpoche is verbally abusive!” [Buddhist expert: “Shut up ;)”]

    Gross, and creepy. And you say women aren’t safe here? I think on that we finally agree.

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  188. “DI Moderation: We added it to put the record straight after your rant”

    And yet, hosted on Dialogue Ireland at this very moment, are multiple posts by Victoria Barlow accusing HH Sakya Trizin of committing criminal abuse.

    Yet I refer to her accusations, you strike my references.

    You refer often to Sogyal Rinpoche “silencing women,” yet the only time I as a woman have been “silenced” (as apparently Bella is now silenced elsewhere) is here on Dialogue Ireland!

    Between the subtle icky threatening tone and the censorship, the pot is looking an awful lot like the kettle.

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  189. Thank you Drolma for your kind good bye words….?

    I asked you also to clarify, because I don’t like generalizations and empty labels. There are plenty of those surrounding this issue, also in your future page and group. Just don’t always take everything at face value. Also your host takes the documentary as the truth without consideration.

    But anyway, I also said in my unpublished post there that I don’t want to bother too much with my view, so you can have that therapeutic environment. I still can’t stand lies, so I wouldn’t be able to keep quiet. Hopefully yoour host doesn’t allow extreme views from the Finnigan direction either. There’s no light there.

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  190. Bella, your posts were blocked on Tenpel’s webpage for the simple reason that your perspectives work against the purpose of that blog– which is to provide a safe space for individuals to speak of abuse and psychological pain. The purpose of that blog is not to argue with individuals like yourselves about whether or not the abuse has occurred in the first place, whether or not SR is perfect or not. If you look at the other entries on that website, you will find that it’s purpose is not for your endless arguments such as yours.

    We’ve gone down that road with you, both patiently and inpatiently, for months. You’ve dominated this thread– and will continue to do so, I am sure. But now it’s time to move on with other concerns, such as the healing of abuse and the creation of safer Dharma Centers. These are both dialogues that you and Sheila have blocked at every opportunity on this thread, while also disparaging women’s claims of abuse at every turn. Allowing you to post on Tenpel’s webpage would be a little like allowing an advocate for a woman’s abuser to visit a woman’s shelter. It’s simply not done.

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  191. I don’t have a PC. I guess you didn’t follow this page carefully, since you don’t know how often or unoften I’ve been here?

    I’m sorry if I care about SR and if I care about people I KNOW personally.

    If you like liars, then join Victoria Barlow and Mary Finnigan! I detest the kind of ‘journalists’ like her: some circus clowns on this Earth pulling the strings like gods. I really fight against BS in this realm.

    And yes: I don’t worry what SR thinks, if he needs my ‘help’ or wishes me to keep silent. But I know he also knows me – and how he knows me, you don’t know, because you were not there. So, I’m sorry but you are not getting under my skin.

    Have a nice walk!

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  192. Dear Bella,

    I think your the speed and quality of your immediate and largely incoherent response actually demonstrates my analysis precisely; Y

    You now seem perilously close to becoming deranged. Your obsession, denial and paranoia about protecting an abuser doesn’t bode well for your mental health and I really think you should seek professional help very soon.

    I’m not trying to score points here, you must understand that this is not a game that you can play without consequence. You sometimes post up to ten times a day: this is a complete obsession for you and not anything that can ever bring you any kind of resolution to your obvious suffering. You’re now talking mostly to yourself.

    You obviously have a desperate need to control others and the environment you’ve projected yourself into. This may explain why you identify with Sogyal.

    You make confident statements about who has been abused without even the slightest hesitation, perhaps you think you’re clairvoyant. That’s worrying. You ask your own odd questions and then answer them yourself in a curiously fragmented way.

    I now doubt that you’re a Rigpa troll as such, simply because you can’t maintain a relevant or coherent argument. It looks more like increasing mental confusion and distress.

    Please consider this, you need help. Continuing here is not going to help you at all. I say this, not because I want to make a point, but because I find it rather sad.

    I think Buddhism or something else has damaged you, as it has many people. Please try and take care of yourself rather than trying to constantly trying to defend Sogyal, he doesn’t know about you and wouldn’t care if he did, so think about yourself first.

    It’s spring, so take a holiday, turn off your PC and go for a walk in the fresh air. Make some new friends. Take up a hobby, get a dog, eat more and have a normal life, you’ll feel much better in the long run.

    If you haven’t been abused this needn’t concern you, you’re just torturing yourself for something that isn’t your problem, or if it is, then you can’t bring yourself to admit it and it’s driving you. You need to step back from this. The internet really isn’t the best place to work out your personal issues by using and trying to manipulate other people’s experiences. This is emotional vampirism, it’s making you worse.

    By the way, I’m out for the evening now, you’re obviously overwrought, so please don’t exhaust yourself pointlessly replying. Take a break….have some fun, watch something funny on TV, above all, try and stop taking yourself so seriously……..go on I dare you, try it just this once, you may enjoy it. Please.

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  193. Marte-Micaela Riepe,

    why don’t you just try to figure out what happened to you with Ole Nydahl? What made you succumb to him?

    Give advice to young women how to avoid pitfalls with any men.

    You haven’t even met SR, so you cannot say anything substantial about him. I know people who have met both of those people – SR and Ole Nydahl – there is a huge difference between two men.

    You cannot even begin to compare that Nydahl to SR. They are not comparable, in any sense.

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  194. I guess the main problem with victim hood is that where lies the adult person’s own responsibility?

    I know young people can be stupid and make moves they should not, but…

    In Rigpa no one is recruiting young or old women for SR to have sex with. Rigpa people are really very DECENT, maybe more than people in general in ordinary society. They are kind too.

    If somebody stays for 3 years working and offering sexual services to the lama, I cannot see when did the victim hood start? In early childhood, when her daddy left for retreats? Abandonment?

    SR never raped anybody. What would make any woman stay there unwillingly for many years?

    These questions are difficult, but they are equally valid as any other questions.

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  195. To Harbinger:
    Thank you for your post, it is very engaged and on a high intellectual level. Only with a few here you can hold it. Look, what Bella does, it is so miserable!

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  196. In the other blog these comments were too much for the holder of the blog, because they contradicts their agenda there. The person must be also convinced that in Rigpa there are systematic methods for recruiting young women to work in Rigpa. When questioned, those messages are blocked.

    tenpel, April 18, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    “For instance, an attractive young lady in Germany attending the teachings, being interested in the Dharma might be ‘skilfully’ led closer to Sogyal by his devotees, being encouraged to follow him to a retreat in another country or in the same country cooking for him, working as his assistant, finally ending up in a situation which she didn’t intended to be in, as it is evident from seeing the documentary »In the Name of Enlightenment«.”

    My second post unapproved:

    “I was about 30 when I first went to Rigpa. When I was 21 a woman from model agency asked me to come to their office. I thought modeling was so superficial and I wanted to do something serious in my life, so I didn’t go. (Just to say that maybe I had a bit of ‘looks’ when I was young. I don’t care about the looks, but it seems to play a part in this whole story.) I attended many retreats in many countries, spent weeks in LL working. I was never approached by any man or woman asking if I wanted to work or do some weird tasks – except at the beginning of any retreat you sign up for work that suits you for 1 hour each day. Once I also worked in the Lama kitchen and the work was simple kitchen work.

    There is no system of recruiting people into anything, except ordinary retreat work of cleaning the toilets and so on. I believe it happens in other centers too.

    In general workers DO NOT approach people – people approach workers, if they have questions.”

    My first post unapproved:

    “I have never read anywhere that Rigpa confirms that SR has sexual relationships with students or not. Could be that he has and I don’t know with whom. It’s not public information.

    Ex-dakini said she guesses he could have sexual relationships to 15 people. I could also go guessing. If he has sexual relationships with students, then he has. I was talking about newcomers or someone simply being there and suddenly being sucked into some system where she is exploited. That kind of system or danger doesn’t exist.

    Also I would like to note that only Victoria Barlow has claimed that SR raped her, which was a false claim. In the Documentary she finally admits that she was his girlfriend and not the unsuspecting student seeking advice from a lama for her troubles, which was the story in the internet written by herself. There has been her writings about her being raped by SR and that she was abused by HH Sakya Trizin, which is also a false claim.

    I have seen Rigpa posting ordinary messages that they are searching somebody to work in the finance department and so on. If that means recruiting women to SR, then one can see it in that way. But then one should see all job adds in the same way. There are equal number of men working in Rigpa.

    I know some younger people are enthusiastic about Dharma and they want to spend the whole summer working in Rigpa doing what ever work is available, like in the kitchen or garden. It’s called work-study. Older people have jobs and families outside, so they can’t usually do that. If there is a woman or man that wants to involve themselves full time working in Rigpa, they can contact a person who is responsible for that specific field and see if there’s work available. There are places at times open because Rigpa as an organization is changing or people don’t want to work too long with such a low payment, I guess. Some have dedicated themselves for their lives and that is the way it is for them.

    The person who traveled with SR told me she was also alarmed when she heard the gossip but afterwards she was relieved when she never saw him in those scenarios described by the psychologist. She has traveled with him for years. I went to talk with SR – and she was present all the time. At the time I was around 30 years old, so I was not “too old”.

    I don’t want to occupy too much space here, so you can have the therapeutic atmosphere what Drolma is wishing for. I just hope there isn’t anymore lies or exaggerations that are not based on reality.”

    Are my posts dangerous? For the false cause – I guess they are.

    Good luck with that!

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  197. Who can you identify here as victims of sexual abuse?

    Lucy? No.

    Drolma? No.

    Chinapuppet? No.

    Tiger Lily? In case she is not VB. NO.

    Ex-dakini? Maybe if her story is real also in the real world.

    bellaB? NO! I’ve never been treated badly in Rigpa, in anyway.

    If you have any personal experience with SR, you are welcome to join, but I didn’t get that impression.

    SR is compared to Hitler. Did you read Hitler’s followers testimonies? Did they love him? Even a little bit? Did he open people’s hearts? You can laugh. Did anybody_ever_ open your heart?

    Like

  198. In response to Marta-Micaela’s post on the 17th :

    Thanks Marta, an excellent contribution, the texts that you posted contain some of the best analyses of Tibetan Buddhism I’ve read in a long time. This is exactly the kind of crucial information that needs to be widely disseminated and what this site should really be about after all.

    Apologies for a long post, but I think this is a little overdue.

    I’ve followed this thread for a while and it seems to have been somewhat hijacked
    and monopolised by a few rather quaintly dim-witted Rigpa trolls who demonstrate such touchingly blind obedience to their Dear Leader ( yes, Sogyal does look like the late and unlamented Kim Il Jong, so perhaps he’ll follow his example soon.) Perhaps they’re being paid, I do hope so, because they post with such extraordinary frequency that it’s difficult to imagine they have any time left to earn a living. Perhaps that’s unfair, and they just want to accumulate merit. Good luck with that……

    Of course there’s always the possibility that they’re retired: one of them (appropriately called ’Bella’, after the poisonous plant,) recently said: “I’ve never heard anyone say that they were deeply touched by Hitler.” This is a statement of such profound, uneducated stupidity that it made me laugh out loud. Even Holocaust deniers, who are arguably insane, wouldn’t deny that the Fuhrer could whip up a crowd with the best (or worst) of them.

    But it’s said with such conviction and authority that we must be charitable and assume that the lady was actually alive at the time of say, the Nuremberg Rally of 1933 and is therefore quite elderly. This would explain all the free time and also the mild dementia.

    Unfortunately, it’s a typical example of what genuine posters here, with authentic experience and valid understanding, are having to cope with.

    I notice that some commentators (who obviously have more restraint and politeness than I could ever muster) generously attempt to engage in a reasoned discussion with these individuals. Recently one even kindly tried to explain to them what a ‘straw man’ argument is and why it’s intellectually dishonest. This is a demonstration of extreme patience in the face of dishonesty.

    Sadly, I think such kindness is wasted and to prove my point it’s only necessary to peruse the thread and count how many times convincing arguments and valuable information ( Marta’s and Lucy’s postings being a perfect examples) have been blithely ignored if they were too demanding, or otherwise irrefutably troll-proof, and how many times the subject has been deliberately changed to the point of some spectacular non-sequiturs, plus enough straw men to thatch a house with, off-topic banalities, ad hominem attacks and so on…..

    On the subject of ad hominem attacks, it also speaks volumes about the difference between the people who post here: those who have been abused and are trying to share their experiences in order to warn and prevent others from suffering are generally much more thoughtful and kind in their responses than the Rigpa trolls, who in a subtler way, show the same propensity for bullying as their Guru. But of course a fanatic is a fanatic……show me your friends etc, etc.,

    Reassuringly, genuine commentators have wisely ignored the trolls salivating, prurient encouragements to give more personal details…and for obvious reasons.

    If someone has personal experience of abuse, then their understanding, obtained at a very high cost in most cases, is enough in itself and you should respect it.
    (The large letters may be the only sure way to get their attention in such a long and for them, intellectually tiring post.)

    If you’re a Rigpa troll and you’re into some sort of weird abuse-porn, then this is most definitely not the place to find it, so why not have some decency and dignity, and leave this thread to those who can benefit from it…..and why not get qualified psychiatric help instead, because you’re presenting some very troubling symptoms here.

    It’s always the case that uncomfortable truths about abuse provoke angry denial and the psychology of deniers can mean that they’re the ones who shout louder and longer. This is certainly the case here, with the added complication that those who have been abused have had an experience that has probably increased their humanity and made them reluctant to retaliate in kind. I appreciate that some commentators here are still Buddhists and that can be a hindrance when it comes to defending themselves against Rigpa trolls as effectively as they otherwise might.

    I find this thread very interesting and useful, and it’s such a pity that so much space is taken up by people who have nothing to contribute except their ignorance and misogyny. They aim to dissuade genuine contributors and in some cases I’m sure they succeed. That’s a shame.

    In the face of so much useless drivel clogging up the thread, it’s only fair to give notice, that unlike most here, I’m no longer a Buddhist, I have no patience whatsoever for sexual abuse or misogyny, however well hidden, or people who support it, nor do I have any problem with making ad hominem attacks if required.

    There are problems with being passive. Religious leaders like to instil ‘acceptance’ into their followers because it helps them to ‘accept’ abuse. I saw an interesting take on this from a guy who was being interviewed during the Russian occupation of Afghanistan, who said: “You must understand that I am not a Christian, if a man hits me first, I will not turn the other cheek, I will hit him back, twice, very hard.”

    So, if you’re a Rigpa troll: please be aware that I have no respect for your opinions, nor do I care in the slightest about your opinion of me, your feelings or your sensitivities. I won’t play your ridiculous ‘I’m-more-compassionate than-you’ game, and from my point of view, as long as you continue attempting to undermine the victims of abuse by supporting an obese, woman-hating pervert like Sogyal, you have no valid reason to comment here, and if you do, then you forfeit your right to treated with any normal deference.

    I appreciate some commentators here are sincerely trying to address abuse, and in some ways I respect those of you who can ignore Rigpa trolls, because if it could be a constant blanket attitude to them, perhaps, like the petulant, attention-seeking children they are, they might eventually get bored, although they do seem to thrive on the merest hint of acknowledgement, so it probably won’t to work, but it may be worth a try.

    Let’s work together to make this a troll-free zone and so a better environment for victims of abuse and their supporters to express themselves and exchange information.

    This site is important, so let’s not be discouraged by trolls, and keep up the good work!

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  199. Sheila, on April 18, 2012 at 3:09 pm said:
    Despite what many here think, I have not actually formed a final opinion on whether abuse has taken place in Rigpa.

    LOL!!!!!!

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  200. And so the trolling goes on. Sister Stanislaus has never been accused of abuse-Sheila raises her name, asks if there are allegations of abuse against her and then ridicules those who make such an allegation and threatens to contact her to inform her how those here are endangering her livelihood. The only problem NOBODY here except Sheila ever connected the person concerned with abuse allegations.

    Where ‘Rigpa’ HAVE been condemned as abusive is where Sogyals followers have stood by and watched as the abuse happened and said nothing. Even in common law, inaction in such a situation constitutes a moral misdemeanour.

    Sheila, you are a troll of the worst kind, trying to bury this story in seemingly rational lies and lunacy. You clearly have far too much time on your hands-try spending some time away from your work station-get a life.Or is this crusade the only way you can make yourself feel valued and important?

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  201. Despite what many here think, I have not actually formed a final opinion on whether abuse has taken place in Rigpa. Intelligent people should be very relieved when others don’t swallow anonymous internet posts hook, line and sinker. Trying to get to the truth is not “abuse promotion,” it is abuse prevention. I have always believe that, and I will always believe that, with all my heart.

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  202. Does systematic abuse take place in all Rigpa centers? Or most?

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  203. You are right, sankappa.

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  204. How am I desperate? Other than TBOLD, everything I learned about Rigpa, I learned via coming to DI.

    For example, I had never heard of Tenzin Gyatso Institute (or if I did, in passing, I didn’t know Rigpa founded it).

    Googling the Sr Stan issue let me to it, and I find that TGI runs a “Scholars Program for Nuns, “promoting East/West exchange by bringing monastic scholars from Tibetan Buddhist monasteries and nunneries in India and the Himalayas to study the humanities, sciences and other western disciplines at U.S. universities.” [Taken from their site.]

    Do you want to tear this town? If so, why?

    I think you ought to separate, very clearly, who you’re after from who you’re not after. This business of swinging a large scythe round your head and not caring who it cuts, is destructive. Focus on what you want, and stop bringing damage to innocent people in the process.

    You know, Tibetans may not be litigious, but I really and sincerely hope that at some point, someone who is litigious takes issue with the slander you people are spreading about good initiatives.

    Be specific. Be exacting. This serves two purposes: it makes genuine abuse cases more likely to succeed, and it reduces the damage done to good people. If Rigpa does not abuse people systematically, then you have zero leg to stand on trying to bring it down. Very odd how no one will answer this question. My guess is that this is all about Sogyal Rinpoche, and probably not about Rigpa as a whole. If so, you ought seriously consider ceasing the slander of Rigpa, and switching the title to something more appropriate and accurate.

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  205. Marte, best not to respond. Their desparation speaks volumes of what they are about

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  206. Marte, this is Sister Stanislaus:

    Sister Stanislaus Kennedy is an Irish member of the Sisters of Charity. She is best known for having co-founded, in 1985, the homelessness charity Focus Ireland and is Life President of the organisation. In 2001, she also set up The Immigrant Council of Ireland (ICI) as a response to the social needs of new immigrants living in Ireland. In 1997 she was appointed to the Council of State by President Mary McAleese and served until 2004. She has published books about spirituality and other topics.

    Shame on you, Marte, for working to harm good people.

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  207. Well done, Bella. I am completely unimpressed that she published it anonymously. These guys scream at us to take them seriously and then keep doing things my high school writing teachers would have lowered my grade for.

    If any/many of the women’s stories are true, they are not in good hands, because the shoddy journalism just puts them all in question. Why no one can see this is beyond me.

    My advice to any woman who as experienced abuse: skip Mary Finnigan, skip Dialogue Ireland, and go straight to authorities/lawyer or at least a support group of your peers who can work together to find a trusted representative–basically, go to ANYone who is not profiting in some way, monetarily or status-wise, from your story. Finnigan may have all the best plans in the world for her dossier, but because she keeps hanging on to things waiting for the right “publishing moment,” and writing flimsy tabloidy blogs in the meanwhile, the issue of addressing the women’s needs is, in my observation, placed secondary to her personal journalistic quest. Granted, a lawyer will also be looking for money; however, at least the lawyer works directly for you and wants to get things taken care of relatively swiftly.

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  208. “having potentially reduced the audience size for Sister Stanislaus by hosting a blog that spews nothing but negativity toward the place she will be teaching in a few weeks? Do you folks take any responsibility for your actions whatsoever?”

    Sheila, I would be very happy about such a result!

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  209. Here it is: proof that BTT is by Finnigan! I also took a print screen shot from this message!

    “Drolma — ALL: the evidence in BTT is true, accurate and comes from at least two sources. If some of it is not true, why has Sogyal never sued for libel? Either against me or many publications and media organisations which have aired the same evidence for more than 20 years? And en passant — i don’t care a hoot if the Tib Budh establishment is shocked by BTT. The private office of HDL has been on the receiving end of letters and emails highlighting Sogyal’s abuses for many years. HHDL himself does not see these communications. He receives sanitised summaries prepared by the arisocrats who control the Central Tibetan Administration. Above all other considerations, they do their utmost to ensure that the cash flow from donors to the Tibetan cause is not affected. I had several email exchanges with one apartchik in the HHDL’s office who, to put it mildly, was anodyne and disingenuous. To his credit HHDL has publicly admitted that “some tulkus” have gone off the rails — but the cultural mores of Tibetan society prohibit him from naming names. To do that would cause loss of face — a heinous crime which would discredit HHDL with all Tibetans.”

    Mary Finnigan

    April 18, 2012 at 10:25 am

    http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/sogyal-rinpoche-and-the-silence-of-the-tibetan-buddhist-community-and-the-dalai-lama/#comment-1700

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  210. I have half a mind to call Sr Stan and Bates up personally and let them know how you are endangering their livelihood (and more importantly, the good they are doing in this world).

    Surely in your frenzy to do whatever it is you do, you can act more professionally and do it in a manner that doesn’t harm innocent people in the process.

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  211. Will you slander Sister Stanislaus Kennedy along with your tirade? Will Dialogue Ireland be happy to live with itself, having potentially reduced the audience size for Sister Stanislaus by hosting a blog that spews nothing but negativity toward the place she will be teaching in a few weeks? Do you folks take any responsibility for your actions whatsoever?

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  212. The May teaching on mindfulness at Dzogchen Beara is coming up in only several weeks. Are you saying people shouldn’t go to this teaching?

    My guess is you have no clue. You are very happy to sling words around which can affect people’s lives, but you have no intention of taking responsibility for those words in any professional or ethical manner.

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  213. S Puppet, you say the allegations are against Rigpa – are they?

    I’ve been looking through all the threads, and I can’t find other teachers names as problematic (though I’m not done reading everything yet).

    The main heading of all these entries, on DI’s blogroll, is RIGPA, so I’m asking (for the third time) whether those reporting abuse there feel it is systematic or not. That’s about the most valid question anyone could ask on a forum which lists “problem religions.” Is this about one teacher, or is this about an organization?

    At any given time, Sogyal Rinpoche is not present at most Rigpa centers. It’s very important to know the answer to this question, because Rigpa does wonderful work.

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  214. Check this tactic

    First Sheila writes, on April 17, 2012 at 8:35 pm:
    For those of you who feel there has been abuse, is this an issue of one teacher, or in your opinion, is it a system-wide problem? If the latter, what percentage of Rigpa teachers do you feel are abusive?

    Then Sheila writes, on April 18, 2012 at 3:15 am:
    For example, Sister Stanislaus Kennedy and Tony Bates will be leading a weekend retreat at Dzogchen in May; surely you’re not saying these teachers are abusive? They are both well known for their work in helping people of all ages find peace and healing through mindfulness

    So first ask a question of critics, asking if they consider abuse to be widespread. Then, use the suggestion that she herself has made as a basis to show how ridiculous such a claim might be. A total absence of an allegation is here used to discredit all allegations against Rigpa.
    Its akin to the straw man strategy-look it up. Highly disingenuous and yet another attempt by Sheila, the resident troll, to distract from the main issue of Sogyal using his status to procure women for sex

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  215. Spam, spam, spam, spam…..etc etc ad infinitum DNFTT

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  216. And the female instructors are also using the young men who arrive in Rigpa, on regular basis…

    – from the collected fantacys of BsTT

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  217. “Odd how, for a site dedicated to exposing Rigpa, no one can answer the question as to whether there is systematic abuse in Rigpa involving multiple teachers, or whether the allegations are limited to one teacher.”

    There are visiting Tibetan teachers, but I don’t know if they are considered Rigpa teachers.

    There are senior students who have been there for decades and are considered as instructors. Many of those are married to the claimed ‘harem women’. According to BTT the instructors call women whores, but are not using multiple women themselves. The sole right of ‘abuse’ is reserved for SR. The senior male students are just licking their lips according to the BTT.

    It’s ridiculous. I wonder why people refer to BTT blog as “information”?

    Or did Drolma notice senior male students talking in any way negatively about women?

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  218. For example, Sister Stanislaus Kennedy and Tony Bates will be leading a weekend retreat at Dzogchen in May; surely you’re not saying these teachers are abusive? They are both well known for their work in helping people of all ages find peace and healing through mindfulness and meditation.

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  219. Note: I did not write “DI gave the right of reply…”

    That was added to my post by someone else.

    Odd how, for a site dedicated to exposing Rigpa, no one can answer the question as to whether there is systematic abuse in Rigpa involving multiple teachers, or whether the allegations are limited to one teacher.

    DI Moderation: We added it to put the record straight after your rant

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  220. sounds like positive moves are afoot…all without giving oxygen to the trolls!

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  221. These are the hypocrisies I see, and wonder about:

    1. Sogyal Rinpoche can be defamed by name here, repeatedly, but HHST cannot (I’m not okay with either of them being defamed; I don’t have any problem, however, with open discussion on either matter).

    2. Some women can be asked politely to explain aspects of their story, and the person asking the question will be called an “abuse supporter,” whereas other women reporting abuse can be called liars–and called so, rudely and crudely, by Mary Finnigan, the “Buddhist Expert,” and Mike Garde (writing as dialogueireland).

    3. If I refer to accusations against HHST, my posts are censored; when Victoria Barlow came here and unleashed pages of sordid accusations, her comments were not even touched.

    4. There is great hue and cry about the evils of abuse, and yet several men posting here are allowed to be quite filthy and creepy (and I must say, you lot in general have treated BellaB despicably–do you not think that posting entire articles using her name in the post title, borders on the same verbal nastiness you are accusing SR of? Because I certainly see it as nasty and borderline abusive towards an individual woman).

    DI gave the right of reply to Bellab here it is!

    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2012/01/06/a-response-to-the-blog-behind-the-thankas/

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  222. I have very different view to my experiences in Rigpa than Drolma. I am entitled to express those views. I’m definitely not alone with my views either.

    She had hard time and I wonder what was the fundamental reason? Her own life choices or Rigpa? Is divorce making you feel bitter and you’d rather blame SR for it than yourself or your husband? This is how I see what you are talking about. I’m not sure if you were the one who worked with psychotic patients? There might be multiple issues in your life that has absolutely nothing to do with SR.

    If it helps you to blame someone else, then of course you may do that. It will not help fundamentally though and also not for a long time. At the moment I think some of you may hold on to superstitious views and – like Sheila has said – it sounds like witch hunt.

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  223. And S Puppet, since you are so passionately devoted to these women, why on earth don’t you call the police on their behalf?? If I lived in Ireland, and heard first-hand HALF of what is being told to you here, I would report it in 60 seconds, if I strongly believed it, as you claim to.

    It really irks me that you and Mike sit on the sidelines, taking the occasional crude swipe at some women here, but have done nothing to bring this to the authorities, as I cannot do given I am not a citizen of Ireland.

    You people are completely wrong when you suggest that someone trying to get to the bottom of this is an “abuse denier.” You are completely wrong to say I am a Rigpa troll. You go on and on about what terrible people myself and Bella are, yet when creepy abusive garbage from S Puppet and Mike Garde issues forth , it’s as if you don’t notice. I really don’t get your position at all.

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  224. For those of you who feel there has been abuse, is this an issue of one teacher, or in your opinion, is it a system-wide problem? If the latter, what percentage of Rigpa teachers do you feel are abusive?

    It’s important to define which type of abuse, I believe. Drolma, I’m curious why you haven’t brought up verbal abuse–it’s my understanding that the incident which you felt caused great damage in your life was not physical or sexual? Does that mean it was verbal? It seems so much of the problem you people are ascribing to Sogyal Rinpoche is a verbal communication issue; yet your focus is on teachers and students never having sex.

    I do have to ask again why it’s okay for Mary to disbelieve someone (and say so to them, right here), and why no one is insisting that HHDL pursue the graphic accusations against HHST.

    One of my greatest problem with this whole thing is the selectivism…Mary can distort facts, but those of us in the pubic commenting on it have to have everything to an exact T. The”Buddhist scholar” can crudely call one woman a liar, not even bothering to say why, yet if I have questions about this or that detail in a testimony, I’m an “abuse supporter.”

    Another troubling thing occurred to me: some (one? Who knows) of you immediately declared me a “Rigpa troll” and have held onto that belief. Since I personally know that’s not true, I realize that no matter how deep a conviction you express on other issues, I have no way of telling if your conviction is based in reality. I.e. you hastily and without any evidence whatsoever subscribed to a (false) theory about my identity; how do I know you didn’t use the same haste arriving at other, equally-passionate positions on other issues? You may well believe I’m a “Rigpa troll,” I mean genuinely believe it–but all that tells me is that you form strong opinions quickly without evidence. Wouldn’t a discerning mind have said to itself, “I can’t possibly know who this person is,” and wait to analyze before coming to such a strong conclusion?

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  225. “Testimony can be posted here, but there are two problems with that– first, our insensitive friends who are so quick to quibble and second, the sheer volume of comments here which make it hard for newcomers to find the testimonies”

    which is exactly why bella and Sheila post here. Repeated denials, contradictions smokesceeens and ridicule of others perspectives buries the truth-thats their job-bella because she cant understand how the sun cant shine out of Sogyals butt and Sheila because shes on a mission to fight the spread of Chinese propaganda (which she believes any criticism of anyone associated with the DL to be) Funny how such groovy Western Buddhists hold a perspective which is as fluid as granite

    Heres a clue LAST TIME WE SHUT UP AND THEY WENT AWAY

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  226. Marte and Lucy– Of course, no one should tell their story if they aren’t ready and they don’t have lots of support. Of course, that is important and I’m sorry I left it out. Tell your story only if you feel ready and it will not bring up too much pain.
    Otherwise, in response to your question about why? You could do it so that more women aren’t abused.

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  227. Lucy,

    thank-you very much for your post. .

    much sanity – )

    I completely understand where people are coming from, regarding speaking up + I agree. Personally I could never speak about anything online. . just too much room for all kinds of problems (like opening a can of worms) if a group of people do get together, would maybe feel encouraged.
    with best wishes to all of you. .

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  228. Drolma, I’m with you on this. I’ve been following Tenpel’s posts which are thoughtful and wise as well as your own. It looks from your last post that you have been in touch with Tenpel privately. This is a positive step forward. I think we should try to link up (possibly via Tenpel) with the German group that has formed to address these problems, and develop an International network where we shall know one another by our real identities.
    It’s true, we need to collate a volume of testimony. I agree with you that betrayal of trust (even outside a sexual relationship) is deeply harmful and damaging to a student, and it sounds as though this is what you may have experienced. I completely understand your pain and why you are reluctant to speak of it here.
    I do think Western women have to make the first move and not rely upon Lamas to do so.
    I hate the way SR has formed a degenerate cult of Guru Rinpoche and his consorts at Rigpa and am just so astonished that other Lamas can’t see it and are equally appalled. Pump up the volume!

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  229. Lucy, don`t let any of the subtil pressure here motivate you to tell your story. Why should you?

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  230. You still didn’t tell how you were abused?

    Isn’t it fair to describe in detail what you consider abuse instead of just throwing labels?

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  231. Those of you who have experienced abuse, like Lucy, NOW IS THE TIME TO START TELLING YOUR STORY. I think this is where things need to go; there needs to be a volume of testimony, so that BTT is not simply discounted as a problem with one women, MF’s problem, which is what Rigpa is saying. They are saying that it is all Mary’s trouble.

    Testimony can be posted here, but there are two problems with that– first, our insensitive friends who are so quick to quibble and second, the sheer volume of comments here which make it hard for newcomers to find the testimonies. For example, ex-Dakini’s testimony was very succinct and sound but the conversation now has moved on as if it never happened. Also, there was a wonderful testimony given by an X-Rigpa insider on a previous thread that I imagine few of you have read. So if you post here on DI, I suggest that you also post on
    http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/sogyal-rinpoche-and-the-silence-of-the-tibetan-buddhist-community-and-the-dalai-lama/#comment-1700
    That website is making a difference, finally adding support for the conversations here. Tenpel will post completely anonymously and will post your stories on separate pages so that they don’t get lost in commentary. I myself will consider posting if I believe that I can get my story across in a productive way.
    So let’s stop talking and write the stories!!!!!!

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  232. To Anon,
    It’s encouraging to hear another positive comment. Those of us who have had the experience of abuse and have understood it as such, are more likely to support each other in trying to recover our lives.

    When people defend and justify abuse it’s a sure sign that they have either never experienced it themselves or if they have, they can’t admit it to themselves or simply aren’t experienced or mature enough to recognize abuse (although this certainly doesn’t seem to stop them having opinions about it!)

    Yes life is precious, I’m with you on that and we should enjoy it while we can. I think the best use of this thread is to inform and explain.
    There’s nothing much to be gained from arguing with people who seem to have deep psychological problems of some kind, being trapped in denial and are more than a little obsessive.

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  233. My heart has been opened by SR. He has done it to countless others. Why else people would have remained there?

    Did Hitler have an open heart or did he just justify people’s jealousy and anger – and directed it toward the Jews?

    I’ve never heard anyone say that they were deeply touched by Hitler, their hearts have been opened by Hitler or anything else like that. Fighting against shadows.

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  234. Lucy, an interesting articel by Barbara Rogers as a complement to your post:

    The dubious roots of meditation and the negation of human emotional needs in Tibetan Buddhism

    When Tibetan Buddhism is celebrated today as the peaceful and calming practice of meditation, people overlook the reality of a brutal religion with bizarre traditions that has used meditation as a tyrannizing tool to quash the power of feelings and free, critical thinking. Not only one hell as in Christianity, but sixteen hells doom the believer in Tibetan Buddhism with terrifying horror scenarios. It is a tradition of this controlling religion to force children into becoming monks, remove them from their families, cut them off from contact with women and brainwash them with religious studies that must be learned and recited by heart. In the context of this inhuman religion, the word “compassion,” no matter how often it is conjured, has no real meaning because compassion is not extended to these abused and neglected children. In order to become “spiritually enlightened,” they are betrayed of their human right to a healthy, dignified development, their freedom and their lives.

    Colin Goldner writes in “The Myth of Tibet:”

    “Tibetan Buddhism systematically raises people with crippled minds and souls.”

    ”Who will not obey the divine laws of the Lamas will find himself inevitably in one of the sixteen hells. One of these consists of a being immersed to the neck in a ‘stinking swamp of excrements,’ while, at the same time, being ‘picked at and gnawed to the bone by the razor sharp beaks of the huge insects that live there.’ In other hells one is burnt, smashed, squashed, and crushed by boulders or cut into a thousand pieces by huge razor knives. And that is constantly repeated over eons. What this kind of pathological Karma craze causes in the heads of simple structured, uneducated people – not to speak of the heads of three or four year old children who are saturated with this – one can only guess with a shudder.”

    http://www.eunacom.net/DalaiLama_E.htm

    Why are fear and control of our feelings so popular and widely spread? Why are we not encouraged to welcome all our feelings, to communicate with them with an open mind in order to find out why we feel what we feel? Is the old childhood fear of threatening parental rebukes, retributions and attacks so strong and prevalent?

    When we look at why we feel angry, our anger might be justified in the presence and lead us to empowering and important actions that protect our lives, health and interests and our loved ones too. Maybe our anger leads us to actions where we become activists engaged to work for social changes, for the benefit of other people, for the environment. Why should we want to meditate this strengthening anger away, turn it into fussy confusion, thus deny it and take away its power?

    But our anger can also stem from the pain and powerlessness that we suffered as children when we had to bear the unjust attacks of angry, cruel parents and could not defend ourselves and when any protest would only have meant more, even life-threatening danger. When this dormant anger emerges years later, it is directed against weaker, less powerful and innocent people, above all children. As powerful authorities, adults can now vent their old, unconscious anger on those where they don’t feel afraid anymore but in control, where they experience themselves as powerful and can induce fear. How infinitely more difficult and frightening is it to speak up to power, to question and see through one’s parents, to acknowledge the consequences of their hurtful actions and attitudes and to realize how they programmed us emotionally. Because in order to do so, we must confront the terror of the attacked, blamed, condemned and punished child.

    When anger becomes a problem in adulthood where it appears clearly out of context and is taken out on innocent others – then we must question it and work in therapy to understand its roots and resolve its destructiveness. Daily hours and years of meditation can never resolve this kind of anger and hatred but only reinforce the tradition of suppressing undesired feelings, which pursues the interests of the powerful – that we remain unconscious, controllable, devoted children/followers.

    The practice of meditation, which e.g. the Tibetan Buddhist monks propagate, starts early in their lives. It consists mainly of reciting mantras, religious demands and dogmas, over and over again, 100 000 times on certain steps of ritualistic scales, which are part of their meditation practice. Above all, they are meant to lead to complete submission and guru-devotion. Even if people in the west meditate in less brainwashing ways, the origins of this practice show that the purpose of meditation in the Tibetan context was and is not to get in touch with oneself but to suppress one’s self-awareness, feelings, critical thinking, justified needs and human rights in order to become a loyal subject of the elite monks.

    So many in the Western World choose not to recognize this misogynist, authoritarian, brainwashing religion for what it is. They allow its unexamined defraud to extend their childhood blindness. But a good look at history would awaken us to the danger of raising and wanting people who blindly follow their adored leaders.

    Children who were forced into a specific way of life that controls them for the rest of their lives do not know choice, themselves, and what freedom and authenticity are all about. Michael Parenti, the historian and author of the essay “Friendly Feudalism–The Tibet Myth” makes the following statement in a radio interview:

    “One of the things that the theocratic class did was go around and pick up 9-year-old boys from the peasant families and bring them into the monasteries to be used as sexual objects and recruited into the monk hood, or used as soldiers or domestic servants or whatever else. And a lot of those monks left, when the Chinese gave the option to the monasteries and said: Anybody who wants to leave can leave.” And thousands of them left; never wanted to be there. The older monks stayed and continued on a modest government stipend plus whatever money they could make by presiding over weddings and funerals and the likes. So I think there is freedom for Buddhism in Tibet under the Chinese communists but very little encouragement of it, and of course a lot of the monasteries and monastery lands were taken away.”

    Radio Talk with Michael Parenti – Tibet: Friendly Fuedalism? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWGGjpJJCKE

    We live authentic lives if we engage in a life-long process of being in touch with ourselves, our questions and exploration of reality. Based on our experiences and observations, we react with feelings, passions, changing needs and goals to our environment, to life’s problems and an ever-changing world. That makes us who we are – not complying with the beliefs and practices of others that stem from centuries of denial, blind adoration, manipulation, repression and hunger for power. During childhood, we have no choice but to accept the beliefs of others, above all those of our parents. No matter what they believe and even if the child at times may notice discrepancies, contradictions and even lies – children need their parents to survive and will internalize many of those parental beliefs. Later, they will follow authorities that either remind them of their parents’ beliefs or seem to promise more humane views. To this day, neither the Ten Commandments nor other religious or spiritual practices have created non-violent humans or societies that have stopped to hate and to kill. The Old Tibet – contrary to wide-spread myths – was a place full of violence and cruelty.

    “The ruling elite of monks exploited land and people without pity with the help of a wide spread network of monasteries and strongholds. Bitter poverty and hunger dominated everyday life in Tibet; there were no educational or health facilities. Similar to the Hindu society of India, Tibet maintained a strict caste hierarchy, including a caste of “untouchables.” Privileged and, respectively, underprivileged living conditions were pronounced and justified via the Buddhist Karma dogma which postulates that the present life is always a result of accumulated merits, and, respectively, faults in an earlier life.

    “The Tibetan penal code was marked by extreme cruelty. Some of the usual punitive measures that lasted far into the 20th century consisted of public floggings, amputation of limbs, gouging of eyes, pulling skin off the flesh of living convicts, and the like. Because Buddhist principles prohibits the killing of living beings, delinquents were often tortured close to death and then left to their own fate. If they died as a result of the tortures, it was considered to have been caused by their own Karma.”

    Colin Goldner, The Myth of Tibet:

    http://www.eunacom.net/DalaiLama_E.htm

    And now in our time, in the 90ties, a violent fight erupted within the exile Tibetan Buddhist monk community when the Dalai Lama publicly declared one of their many gods, revered since ancient times, as dangerous and no longer worthy of adoration and prayer. To study how he made this decision (as well as countless others) by means of asking an “oracle;” in what a crazy, repugnant and inhuman way that process transpires; and to watch with how much irritation, visible in a video, he harshly denies the violence, which his intolerant decision has created among his loyal and faithful monks, provides an intriguing and enlightening awakening from the idealization that this man is met with.

    Swiss TV on the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden; watch video at youtube: Part 1; Part 2; Part 3

    Salman Rushdie has said:

    “The word spiritual should be banned from the English language for at least 50 years… Talk about a word that has lost its meaning! You can’t walk your dog without doing it in a ‘spiritual ‘manner, you can’t cook without talking about spirituality!”

    Spiegel Interview with Salman Rushdie

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,433969,00.html

    Traditional and untrue beliefs, developed by ancient religions to gain and retain power, inspire and influence spiritual movements. What “spirituality” actually means is unclear because these movements are fed by nebulous notions of various invisible and unproven higher powers. The idea of “spirituality” unites movements that do not feel bound to a religion but certainly to a “God,” a “higher being” or “higher entity” whom they trust in a childlike manner to know what’s best for them and to mean well. They have in common that one has to bow to the will of God or a higher purpose or meaning; that all actions should be done “out of love” – without that one may clearly recognize reality for what it is – that above all anger and rage, protest and hatred are worthless feelings that must be condemned; and that one may not judge others. People with spiritual beliefs see themselves as free from dogmatic religious beliefs, but upon closer examination, it is obvious that their spiritual concepts are also formed by rigid, dogmatic belief-systems that do not encourage their followers to get in touch with who they really are. Fed by vague ideas about “higher powers,” “the universe,” “karma,” “rebirth and reincarnation,” among others, they teach that meditation and forgiveness bring us “serenity” and “inner peace” – and turn useless psychological labels into pop psychology delusions that allege e.g. that the “ego” hosts “bad things” – like being “judgmental” and “opinionated” – which must be overcome.

    A closer look at such beliefs, like the concept of karma, and how they were used in the past by the religious and often also political systems that they kept in place, reveals how they served to force their subjects under their control. In Old Tibet, the karma belief kept the serfs and slaves gratefully, subserviently and willingly in check because their miserable lives were cynically blamed on them. The tyrannical and cruel theocracy of Old Tibet was ruled with an iron fist by the elite, upper class of monks who had no empathy and took no responsibility for the plight of their subjects. Neither respect and compassion, nor societal changes for the bitterly poor, oppressed and exploited masses ever came about through all their hours and years of meditation.

    Christopher Hitchens describes in his book “god is not Great” how “Japanese Buddhism became a loyal servant — even an advocate — of imperialism and mass murder.” “By the end of the dreadful conflict that Japan had started, it was Buddhist and Shinto priests who were recruiting and training the suicide bombers, or Kamikaze (“Divine Wind”), fanatics, assuring them the emperor was a “Golden Wheel-Turning Sacred King,” one indeed of the four manifestations of the ideal Buddhist monarch and a Tathagata, or “fully enlightened being,” of the material world.”

    Hitchens sums up the workings of Buddhist thinking: ” A faith that despises the mind and the free individual, that preaches submission and resignation, and that regards life as a poor and transient thing, is ill-equipped for self-criticism. Those who become bored by conventional “Bible” religions, and seek “enlightenment” by way of the dissolution of their own critical faculties into nirvana in any form, had better take a warning. They may think they are leaving the realm of despised materialism, but they are still being asked to put their reason to sleep, and to discard their minds along with their sandals.” (read more here)

    http://www.screamsfromchildhood.com/spirituality_cements_childhood_blindness.html

    :

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  235. I would hazard a guess, that it is you are not so aware of heart! anyone who spends their time, years and years demeaning, putting down, invalidating other people’s experiences.. obviously doesn’t have much it’s extraordinary ironic, that you pull lucy up on her posts, when yours are full of words such as stupid, low, ugly minded, bs etc etc

    yes, I am still here occasionally, but don’t have the energy to respond or get involved – just from the sidelines. as sankappa says, I have a precious life to carry on with, no matter how damaged by my experience at Rigpa, and being here is not really how I wish to spend it

    Sheila, anyone who reads through these threads will make their own minds up

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  236. Perhaps you don’t know what heart is?

    People who never experienced anything but manipulation do not recognize anything else, do not trust anything else.

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  237. “Opening people’s hearts” is just a romantic way of saying: influencing people on an emotional level, there’s nothing special about that, Hitler was very good at it. It’s straightforward manipulation in order to control, exploit and profit from people. To think otherwise is to be naïve and credulous. You have to understand who you’re dealing with, exactly what they’re trying to do to you and why.

    For example, this could be a description of Sogyal, taken from the shorter Oxford textbook on Psychiatry:

    ‘People with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, have a grandiose sense of self-importance and are boastful and pretentious. They are preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, beauty or intellectual brilliance. They think themselves special and expect others to admire them and offer special services and favours. They feel entitled to the best and seek to associate with people of high status. They exploit people and do not empathize with or show concern for their feelings. They envy them in the same way. They appear arrogant, disdainful and haughty and behave in a patronizing or condescending way.’

    Does any of that sound familiar?

    What you’re really dealing with is a system that isolates young male children from maternal affection, and distorts their personalities very early on. By example, it teaches them the skills of manipulating others. This makes them more dangerous when they have access to people with strong emotional needs who are disillusioned with their own culture but have no understanding of the surrogate culture they try to adopt. The tulku system is an efficient process for creating narcissism, producing children who are spoilt brats, but in a very particular way indeed, they really don’t have much chance of developing into normal well-balanced adults.

    The usual pattern of abuse is that an individual like Sogyal, like all narcissists, will seduce, cajole, flatter and promise a lot ….then when he’s fairly certain you’re hooked, make increasing demands that are backed-up by a complex mixture of inducements, emotional blackmail in the form of manipulation, threats, bullying, deliberate humiliation and so on, (in Sogyal’s case, all well documented). It’s all about control.

    The outcome will eventually depend on personality, self-image and accumulated experience: some people don’t tolerate this for long, but others will tolerate it almost indefinitely, if they feel they have no choice, or if they can get some perceived benefit even though their experience is one of subservience and humiliation. Many of Sogyal’s older students manage to distance themselves in some way, but even if they can escape his tantrums, at least in public, the process of witnessing others being humiliated is always corrosive to their integrity, and certainly not conducive to happiness, unless of course they are the kind of individuals who secretly enjoy watching suffering, and can rationalise it by saying: “It’s for their own good.”

    Manipulative people who sense that they’re losing control will simply move on to another easier victim. This happens systematically with Sogyal.

    In terms of mental health and any kind of resolution, for everyone who has been through this particular experience there is one essential point to understand: there is absolutely no middle ground whatsoever here and no other option but to leave, sever all ties with the abuser and try to analyse, take it in one’s stride, grow up and move on. The good news is that there is life after Buddhism and a much better one at that, free from brainwashing, manipulation, mumbling gibberish, futile commitment and delusional magical beliefs; no one to torment us and tell us what to do and when.

    A simpler, less complicated life that’s healthier, more human and a more achievable freedom than the emotionally destructive, fantasy kind offered by predatory, dysfunctional men like Sogyal.

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  238. I was reading back through some of the previous threads…at one point a new person reported horrific childhood abuse, and Mary’s immediate response was that she “doubted” the person’s story.

    Heavy pressure for HHDL to somehow nebulously “respond” to individuals’ allegations against SR, but absolutely zero pressure for him to respond to the lengthy and horrific allegations against HHST.

    Hypocrisy runs thick.

    It occurs to me that there’s no money in the HHST thing, since a book on that subject is not being prepared for launch, and there is no “Sakya” organizations on DI’s bad-boy list.

    Interesting how, when money’s in sight, women reporting abuse are courted and cajoled; when money’s not in sight, they’re sent packing.

    I highly recommend everyone read through the threads, if you’re interested in getting a bigger picture…as we’ve been discussing lately, it’s hard to keep informations straight with all the sock puppetry, but it does become a bit clearer as you take more and more in.

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  239. Maybe its time for people to shut up and grow up?

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  240. Maybe you should wipe you tongue first?

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  241. If you adore him so much why aren’t you there wiping his xxxx?!
    That way you could give us all a break.

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  242. I guess SR opened your heart too?

    Then there comes the pain, because we have pain from many life times. It’s a common story. It’s not only you Drolma, who is cracked open by SR. He is not just an ordinary charismatic fellow who manipulates people. It goes deeper than that. I’ve never heard of a narciccist who opens people’s hearts.

    Why the trust was gone? It was not only pink and fluffy feeling love stuff? I guess Dzogchen master has another work to be done. How to make people really change? Purification process also makes the dirt, the pain, come to surface. I guess you’ve heard him saying many times: When you start applying the soap, you should not stop in the middle.

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  243. I guess you’re saying DI is worthless for maintaining this blog?

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  244. “Inherent” ???

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  245. sankappa, your level of personal boredom does not determine the inherent worth for others of discussing a topic.

    If you read this thread from beginning to end, as I have today, you’ll see there’s entrenchment obvious in some posters, and surprising flexibility from others. I’m sorry you find the fact that a topic is under heavy discussion to be off-putting; I find it encouraging.

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  246. There is very heavy pressure here for HHDL to address the allegations levied against Sogyal Rinpoche.

    Why is there no pressure for HHDL to address the allegations levied against HHST?

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  247. Post Number 1000 for this thread alone. Just more grist for the mill, more drama for people to become attached to, points of view to be defended and further entrench self-view. And on and on it goes, with nothing really being achieved here…

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  248. Drolma, I’ve been reading back through this whole thread (not advisable unless you have a glass of wine handy, which I don’t!)

    It’s interesting, though, and deeper than I had given it credit for; I’m afraid I’m a bit reactionary, think in the moment, and would do well to reread and reread.

    I think you guys should come to Wisconsin sometime, seriously. I don’t understand all this furor you folks are finding everywhere in the Buddhist world, I really don’t. We have teachings, we share tea, and we go home and think about what we learned that day. This has been happening at Deer Park, just like that, for 25 years. No excitement. When I’ve gone to teachings at other centers, the same thing has happened. The only thing that changes is who’s making tea. I’m not kidding.

    There just isn’t anything in my experience that even comes close to relating what you people are talking about. It’s like we’re from different planets.

    I do agree with something you said earlier – that it can be very wonderful to read from HHDL’s books, and take teachings that way. I think it’s exceptionally wonderful to take teachings in the same physical space as the teacher, but there’s no doubt that HHDL’s writings, for example, are gold. I turn to them over and over again.

    I’m going to continue rereading through these threads to try and understand who on earth everyone is(n’t). But I’m curious no one has had an opinion yet on other teachers in Rigpa. Maybe I’m not understanding Rigpa’s organizational structure–but there are multiple centers, with multiple teachers, correct?

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  249. And certainly someone here has an opinion on Rigpa – are other teachers abusive? The subject, as addressed on Dialogue Ireland at least, is Rigpa the institution (if I understand correctly). Since Rigpa has multiple centers, Sogyal Rinpoche is most often not the teacher at any particular center.

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  250. Drolma, I’m confused–I thought you were a long-time student of Sogyal Rinpoche’s?

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  251. Yes indeed, Bella, you’ve asked me personal questions. Tenpel too on the anti-shugden website I’ve been commenting on has asked me to tell my story. But how can I? In your mind, Bella and Sheila, probably you’re thinking I had some sort of spat with SR, something he did that made me mad and go off in a huff, something like that. Or he did something to offend me, hurt me. Or I had a mental breakdown and blamed it all on him. Sheila thinks I just didn’t like the way he dressed or something, got turned off by him because he was Tibetan.

    The reality is, the connection resulting from strong devotion is very deep and personal, isn’t it? When it breaks down, when trust is lost, it’s a big deal. I sat here on my computer, unable to write, and realized that there’s no way that I can answer your questions, Bella. No way that you could ever understand the depth of what I have experienced. My own daughters don’t understand and they’re my best friends.

    That’s what makes this such a messy business. Only SR himself can ever address it properly. If I can’t disclose my experiences, subject them to your insensitive rebuttals, how on earth are women who have been sexually abused to subject them to the rough and tumble of a courtroom? For myself personally, the place of pain inside is so sensitive still, after all these years, that even one rebuttal, one question that hints at doubting the validity of my experience, makes me want to run away and hide. What you guys don’t realize in your insensitivity is that these experiences make us doubt ourselves in a deep way.

    So that’s how it feels. And it’s probably time for me to take Sock Man/Woman’s advice and give this circus a rest.

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  252. “both are here with a particular agenda and are totally closed to any change or to considering others opinions.”

    If they are baseless opinions, then who cares! I was asking on what Sankappa bases his view?

    I have asked Droma personal questions, explanations for her experiences about SR or Rigpa, because I don’t understand them, really.

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  253. In the beginning of my Buddhist life I did go to other teachers as well. I did talk with them. They have never rejected me. One took me as his student, but later I noticed SR is far better teacher: I feel he understands.

    I have attended at times another group too. I asked the head lama if it’s okay, since I’m a student of SR. He smiled and said: No problem! You can come.

    I don’t know what is the obstacle. Maybe if you approach a new lama telling I have this huge problem with SR and criticize him a lot, then maybe some other lama might be a bit reserved after that. Usually they don’t criticize other lamas or talk bad. It could be too that they are embarrassed about your directness. It could be that there are cultural differences and it depends if the lama has stayed in the West long enough if he knows our habits.

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  254. Certainly, SPuppet, the prospects of reaching an intelligent and open conversation with both Sheila and Bella look dismal. But so do the prospects of His Holiness ever returning to China– but he keeps working at it! So I’m a little stubborn too. And it’s a great practice of patience– Sheila’s found some buttons in me I thought I didn’t have anymore.

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  255. Well said Drolma. I would only advise one thing to you and noble Sankappa-stop wasting time on Bella and Sheila. both are here with a particular agenda and are totally closed to any change or to considering others opinions. They are classic cult apologists and NOTHING will cause them to change their closed minded opinions. Their closed mindedness has ALWAYS been evident and I promise you, you waste a valuable life bothering with them. They have already decided not to listen and to deny anything so whats the point? Far better to relax and enjoy………and get closer to enlightenment. Openness and closed mindedness: which is best???

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  256. No, I am not overreacting. I attended teachings in New York, PA and travelled to France for a two week retreat in Lerab Ling.

    And I want to say very strongly– for every being out there who has experienced suffering at the hands of a spiritual teacher– that no one who hasn’t walked the walk can understand how damaging the Tibetan code of silence can be for a student. I travelled from lama to lama to lama, simply seeking closure, understanding and healing from my experiences at Rigpa. With every lama, it was the same silence, the same closed look, the same cryptic responses. I just wanted answers and a chance to move on with my spiritual practice and I just received silence, again and again.

    On top of that, my trouble with SR was an obstacle to every relationship I then tried to form with a lama– it was a barrier because that’s another code with Tibetan lamas: Don’t intervere with another lama’s business. So I could never start again with a new lama, I could never get really close. I have a friend who is experiencing just that– her relationship with her current lama is always going to have that obstacle, the obstacle not of her own negative actions, but the negative actions of her first lama, her retreat lama.

    Sheila and Bella and all you others who sit in your ivory towers, passing judgment on those who have had trouble with their spiritual teachers– you really need to start listening and listening and listening. Abuse is one thing– being silenced is much worse and very easy to do. The Catholic Church has demonstrated the horror of silencing victims– let’s not follow.

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  257. I realize that topic is not covered in the memo. There will be some scrambling now to figure out how to deal with it.

    However, the entry on this website is not called “Sogyal Rinpoche,” it is called “RIGPA” (in caps, no less).

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  258. Let me put my previous question more bluntly: Are other teachers in Rigpa abusive?

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  259. Why are you Sankappa so certain that any abuse has taken place? Maybe pain has taken place (it’s everywhere), but is the purpose of any of it abuse?

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  260. sankappa, you apparently want to live in a world where people can be hung based on anonymous internet postings; I do not.

    I am not a Sogyal Rinpoche apologist, I am a person who believes firmly in the strength of a society which abides by innocent until proven guilty.

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  261. Sheila, on April 16, 2012 at 12:50 pm said:

    “Genuine help for victims does not come in this form(lessness) and never will.”

    As much as I have witnessed Sheila’s dishonesty, disingenuousness and distortion in her posting here on DI, the one point she continually advocates that does have merit and currency, is that all the talk on this and other forums can only take things so far. This is the point at which it is as now, or in reality where it has been for some time.

    As has been noted by many I’m sure, is the circular nature of the discussion (claim and counter-claim) that have been raging on and on for literally years now; and while this has been a necessary part of the process, it cannot progress from here. For Sogyal Rinpoche to be brought to task (and he will never go quietly, or be counselled as some suggest – ego and denial factors) victims of his abuse will ultimately have to bring this before the legal system in some form, preferably a class action. I understand that the predictable responses to this will be along the lines of “it’s easy for you to say, you don’t have to go through the pain and trauma of it,” but it is the unpalatable reality of the situation, and sacrifices for the greater good (and there is much at stake here! – physical, verbal spiritual and financial abuse as well as sexual) will need to be made. Otherwise this same debate will be raging on, on this forum in another 3 years from now, with Bella and Sheila and most likely a few more Sogyal apologists and deniers, but more tragically no doubt, more Sogyal victims as well.

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  262. Drolma, you’re overreacting. I’m asking whether abusive teachings happen in all Rigpa centers, given that you may not have received yours in a European one (which, to my understanding, is where Sogyal Rinpoche has been for the past couple decades or so).

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  263. Bella and Sheila, you make one salient point– that MF published anonymously and thus was free from libel risks– and then you drown it in a sea of drivel and accusations.

    Sheila, what are those “facts” that you know? Have you attended Rigpa teachings? Have you been a Rigpa student? Do you know me and my experiences that you can discount and disparage my suffering? And what is this business about my spelling? Are you the CIA? Because I don’t spell with British English, I am lying? I never lived in Australia?

    I disclosed to you a little about my own pain, a little about my own experience because you seemed open and more kind in your earlier comment. I thought we could move the conversation to one that was more open and humane and one that considered all angles– as His Holiness advises. And what is your response? Sympathy? Kindness? Openness? Willingness to take people at their word?

    No suddenly you swoop down like a secret agent who has finally discovered a key piece of evidence in her guest to root out a spy– Aha, I don’t spell like a Brit. Maybe that’s because I’m an American who lived in Australia for 16 years. Can you just give it a break?

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  264. I’ve already given evidence of some of the fact-checking. The BTT author said Sogyal Rinpoche left Tibet when he was two years old; this is untrue, and calls into (slanderous) question many teachings, initiations and transmissions given by, and from, prominent teachers in the Tibetan world. Lies always snowball.

    Sheila did you not read the edit from months ago? Sogyal Rinpoche chose this name in honour of Lerab Lingpa, a 19th century Tibetan Buddhist master Sogyal claims as his predecessor. So how did a 63 year old man in poor health, who left his native Tibet when he was a young child, and had only a basic education in India, come to be the head of a multi-national organisation with tentacles in five continents? How did he manage to raise 10 million Euros to build a huge temple in southern France? And then persuade the wife of the President to provide the media focus for the opening day?

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  265. S Puppet, anonymous internet posts, “supported” by other anonymous users (who could be the original poster, for all we know), are worse than unconvincing: they actually push many people in the opposite direction.

    Did Mary Finnigan write BTT? Perhaps we’ll never know.

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  266. PS your both clutching at straws now-everybody knows. What is this ‘The emperors new clothes’?

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  267. You are asking me to believe something that contradicts my own personal observations(Ur you mean ‘prejudices’),

    and to do so based on an anonymous internet claim (Ur, and newspaper articles, a television program,a lawsuit settled out of court, multiple personal testimonies etc)
    that an anonymous, error-laden internet post (plus all of the above) is factual, as testified to by anonymous others (I thought you were a ‘researcher’??? Thats how you portrayed yourself-I have contact with various Rigpa people and ex of and have managed to ascertain the identity of all the individuals in the document-and Im just an amateur).

    It literally wouldnt matter if everything you’re saying is true (your damned right-Sheila has already decided she knows the truth, her only difficulty now is convincing the rest of the world that only she is right)

    –and I know it’s not, because I’ve checked many of the “facts” myself and found them to be easily-proven fallacy (Nice blanket denial, without any evidence. I have seen no proof that it isnt true and lots of evidence that points to the opposite. However in your case, if its not true simply because you dont see the ‘evidence’, lets see your ‘evidence’ that it is in fact untrue-surely your comments should stand up to the same logic as those of those you accuse of being liars. Evidence please.

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  268. “I entered my first Rigpa teaching a happily married mother of five– within a year, my marriage was in tatters and I had sent my two youngest daughters back to Australia to live with their father. I was a mess.”

    Why you were a mess? Because you had been on a retreat where SR ranted…? I think that there are other reasons. You explain very little – and often I feel that you project things. I don’t understand what you learnt in Rigpa that your marriage collapsed? You became overly reigious? That does brake marriages. It has nothing to do with SR. Care to explain in detail, because I don’t understand your experience. Sounds like blaming SR for your life change.

    “How can you be sure that any person who can humiliate others on a regular basis is kind, compassionate and trustworthy?”

    Perhaps because I don’t see it as public humiliation! I don’t think that is the purpose of anything!

    I have experienced stricktness and arrogance from another ‘Dzogchen’ lama. I percieved it in that way. I have no devotion toward that guy at all. I don’t like him, therefore my heart is not opened – and that treatment doesn’t work at all. I’m just wondering why he has any followers. I’m not impressed.

    I was boiling once because SR said that somebody else had told him something. He didn’t say he himself thinks in that way, but it was enough that he presented somebody else’s thought. That thought hit my childhood issue and also some later bad experiences that may have sprung from childhood. Anyway: it really hit the nerve. I guess Dzogchen masters might bring the student on the edge of something. I did a lot of practice at the time too and saw those strong dreams that I woke to at night. There were many things coming to crossroads and the result was that I had that experience of limitless love.

    I understand that in tantrism negative and extreme emotions can be also used as a path. Therefore I do not judge what SR said at the time. Maybe it was necessary so that I make some leap.

    I have suffered since childhood about the suffering in the world and life. I feel terrible, if I see dead animals by the road. I feel terrible about many things. At somepoint I couldn’t read news at all. In fact HHDL is the only person and world leader that I felt that sheds light and gives hope. Mostly I think people are destructive and selfish. Maybe Buddhism has helped me to cope with things.

    My sensitivity towards things has made me vulnerable when I was young (I’m not that vulnerable anymore). I also suffer from this issue. It does cause me emotional pain too. Not so much anymore, since I have been able to consider Finnigan and her falsity. I do not take refuge in her.

    Anyway ONCE I saw SR treating one woman in a way where I felt the woman behaved calm, but I thought she was in pain. I heard that SR had behaved like her irrational parent, purposefully. Hard to say, what happened next, since I don’t know that woman.

    Usually if he pushes people around, it’s not on a personal level. The only time I saw that personal thing happening was on a small retreat and there wasn’t too many people around. I think that woman “survived”. Do you know as a therapist know what unknotting the most painful knots inside mean? How that happens in therapy?

    It’s a private issue. But many people have those experiences. What about group therapy? Could somebody else’s pain open other people’s hearts too? What happens in group therapy? Could Rigpa be “group therapy”? People at times share deep things there.

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  269. Drolma, your spelling is neither Australian nor British nor Irish…how were you exposed to Sogyal Rinpoche for multiple years? Or are you saying Rigpa in general is abusive, regardless of who’s teaching, and regardless of which center?

    I sorry, but the nature of the allegations requires such thoroughness.

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  270. Drolma, Mary’s understanding of libel is such that she (or whoever wrote BTT) chose not to claim responsibility. Real magazines wouldn’t publish it, out of fear of libel, and it unnerved her to the point of not even taking credit for the blog version. However, we still don’t really know if she wrote. it. Anyone could have.

    You are asking me to believe something that contradicts my own personal observations, and to do so based on an anonymous internet claim that an anonymous, error-laden internet post is factual, as testified to by anonymous others.

    It literally wouldnt matter if everything you’re saying is true–and I know it’s not, because I’ve checked many of the “facts” myself and found them to be easily-proven fallacy.

    Genuine help for victims does not come in this form(lessness) and never will.

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  271. “along with my confidence in Mary’s professional understanding of libel…”

    Because of her awareness of libel suit, the BTT blog was published anonymously.

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  272. This is absolutely no different from a parent (or teacher) who says, Do as I say, not as I do. We know that this approach does not work in parents or regular teachers– how can it work in a spiritual teacher?????

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  273. And Bella, you claim that SR’s rough techniques help you. I say, how can it help anyone become more compassionate, open, trusting and kind to watch public humiliation without protest? And this is a regular occurrence! How can you be sure that any person who can humiliate others on a regular basis is kind, compassionate and trustworthy?????

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  274. Also, Sheila, I happen to know with complete certainty that at least one of the women involved in the allegations in BTT is a real person. Also, the reputation of Cogent Benger is very high. You and Bella both forget that you are dismissing their journalism as well as Mary’s.

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  275. Again,Sheila, if you read my comments, you would notice that there was a period of time when I doubted everything about BTT because of the sordid tone of most of the people posting here. There was also a period of time when I called some of Mary’s reporting into question because of a few questionable opinion pieces she wrote for the Guardian.

    However, while I continue to wish that Mary had been more careful and conservative with BTT– and it was written by her, you don’t have to worry about that– there is simply too much smoke here to ignore. The sound and coherent entries by people such as ex-Dakini, Vera and Tiger Lily, along with several other testimonies I have read in my almost two years posting on DI, along with my own experiences, along with my confidence in Mary’s professional understanding of libel, lead me to the conclusion that there is something here that must be investigated. The truth simply must come out.

    You see, Sheila, Rigpa does not look anything like how you describe your Dharma Center. It’s not a calm, quiet, courteous place. SR does publicly humiliate his students regularly– this is known by anyone who attends his teachings. He also rants and raves, though Bella says these are not tantrums. These damaged me psychologically because in order to accommodate his behavior I gave up the best part of myself– I didn’t find my best self, Bella. I then became very vulnerable to other trouble. I entered my first Rigpa teaching a happily married mother of five– within a year, my marriage was in tatters and I had sent my two youngest daughters back to Australia to live with their father. I was a mess.

    Bella’s response? My psychological troubles cannot be blamed on SR. I had a few “(sexual”) dreams about SR and starting drinking. Your response? I could have left Rigpa at any time, I was free to come and go.

    Nobody should judge others’ suffering in that way, Sheila. That’s what I don’t want to happen here. For me, I had discovered the sanest religion on earth only to become insane. It shouldn’t work that way. And I didn’t use therapy or meds to become sane again– I simply studied and practiced with HHDL. The difference is as stark as if I had found a different religion.

    So because of my own experiences, it is not at all difficult for me to believe that at least a portion of the allegations made by women on this thread and in BTT is true. And if even a fraction of them are true, they must be addressed.

    I don’t know if you read ex-Dakini’s testimony, given on January 9, but here is Bella’s response: “Thank you for your story, Ex-dakini.

    It’s a touching one.

    I would rather believe this kind of story than any of those in BTT.

    If this has really happened, then I’m very sorry for you.”

    But then the thread just descended into more circuitous drivel. If we just started with ex-Dakini’s testimony and Bella’s response, just talked about that alone, it would be enough to decide that there was trouble at Rigpa.

    One of the most poignant lines in ex-Dakini’s testimony, given on this thread in January, is when she declares to Rigpa, “I am quite sane I assure you.” I could so well picture the Rigpa establishment silencing her through the label of insanity. It’s very effective and cruel.

    So Sheila, my line on this thread is not one of blind faith or blind condemnation– but simply that I could NEVER turn away from this and say ho hum, no one has suffered. I could never silence the women who have come forward honestly like ex-Dakini and yes, women from the stories in BTT as well I believe– and there are women who have come forward, this is not a fabricated thread– never leave them in the ditch. Amnesty International estimates that “one in three women will be beaten, coerced into sex or otherwise abused in their lives.” I don’t want to be part of that insidious silent majority which supports this. So I’m not giving up on this. That’s why,, from my heart, I don’t give up on this thread.

    I watched a live webcast of His Holinness in Hawaii last night. He spoke of how we need to address problems realistically and broadly, from many different angles. He said that our tendency is to look very closely and tenaciously from one angle only (e.g. with anger and hatred). However, if we look realistically, wholistically, and from from all six sides, then problems become easier to resolve. I myself find this approach of his very useful and try to apply it here. There certainly is no one angle on this trouble, no one simple answer– but we have to keep trying, in all the ways that we can.

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  276. Drolma, your house sounds lovely, honestly. One drawback to the multiple pseudonyms in this discussion is that it’s very hard to get a “picture” of who you’re speaking with from day to day. At least BellaB is BellaB, you know? She’s consistently herself.

    I have to ask you a serious question, as you seem like a serious person (in a good way). Why is it that you approve of something like Behind the Thangkas? Can’t you see, instantly, what harm it does by making this subject come off as some kind of–I don’t know, porn comic? I mean, that’s the level, and tone, of the writing style. Why don’t you folk(s) write, or encourage the mystery writers to write, pieces that stand up to scrutiny? I mean that in all sincerity.

    I just do not, and will not ever, buy the theory that Mary doesn’t know what she’s doing. She absolutely has to know that this kind of splash piece does not make for a convincing argument. That does not mean I don’t think there’s an argument to be made – but if there is, no one here is making it. That may be frustrating, but please consider these thoughts from an outsider who is suspending disbelief long enough to shed some perspective on your group’s approach.

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  277. Sheila, I had to smile just now, picturing you visiting me. I live in a large house decorated mostly by my mother, except for my room, which looks like, well….Tibet. Five thangkas, a shrine built and decorated by a well known Tibetan craftsman (now deceased), many pictures of HHDL, a large picture of Amithaba, a statue of the Buddha, a pecha, mandalas, and lots of books, all of them about Tibetan Buddhism.

    So you’re not doing so well figuring people out on this thread. Maybe we should just all focus on the topic!

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  278. I’m not actually defending Sogyal Rinpoche. You could insert the name of any human, and if the approach to incriminating that person consisted of spewing unprofessional, gossipy, anonymous diatribes, I would (and do) stand against that approach.

    The Behind the Thankgas genre does not help victims. It makes people less likely to believe abuse claims, not more.

    Can you imagine someone who is genuinely researching abuse, stumbling onto BTT as the first source of information in this matter? For one thing, HHDL is highly-respected, and BTT’s decision to cloud the Sogyal Rinpoche issue by opening the article with pot-shots at HHDL is likely to set the reader in a skeptical mood right off the bat, even if only subconsciously. For another, a serious researcher will quickly discover some of the factual errors and move BTT (and likely, the whole Sogyal Rinpoche story) down another notch in credibility.

    Is BTT purposely trying to turn people away with its snipey tone and poor fact-checking, or does achieve reader turn-off through simple clumsiness and haste? Either way, this writer is a liability to the cause of addressing abuse.

    If the writer is indeed Mary Finnigan, she has been in the profession more than long enough to know what constitutes effective journalism, and what does not. Which leads me back to the question I always seem to return to in this matter: what is the real point?

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  279. Good grief, Sheila, the use of cushions for meditating, thangkas for practice, and whether or not to use the Tibetan language for practice and teaching have nothing whatsoever to do with Tibetan vs Western culture! You use a cushion because it keeps the back straight, the winds and channels open– Indians and Japanese and Chinese all use cushions to meditate. If your knees trouble you, you sit in a chair. If you use thangkas to decorate your house in a Tibetan style, that is totally wrong– whereas thangkas to inspire practice is fine. Milarepa of course had no thangkas and he practiced quite effectively and he was Tibetan. Use of the Tibetan language is not a cultural choice, for goodness sake– Tibetan is a superior language for study and practice of Buddhism, because it has vocabulary that best expresses Buddhist concepts, but it is inferior if you don’t speak it! It is inferior if your translator is a poor one! These are not cultural preferences, Sheila; they’re tools for practice. I imagine that if you use them with a cultural motivation, then your practice could become very superficial.

    I wonder now if much of your motivation defending SR here might have to do with the fact that you believe we are in some way threatening Tibetan culture– and you will defend Tibetans against our slander, just as you might defend Tibetans against Chinese propaganda. Is that true? If so, it’s very silly and very off topic. And I already have strayed too far off topic addressing your comments!

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  280. Also, there is no such thing as Buddhism without cultural aspects. If you decide to replace the cushion with a chair, you’re just replacing one culture’s trapping with another culture’s trapping.

    I personally treasure the Tibetan aspects, because, since my teachers are Tibetan, and their teachers were Tibetan, I appreciate the feeling of being closer to their experience by sharing in the sights and sounds and particulars that characterized their practice long ago. If my teacher’s teacher’s teacher sat on a hard floor to meditate, then I appreciate the opportunity to take that same path. Soon enough, much of it may be extinct. But for now, it is not, and I have no desire to hasten it’s extinction.

    Those who do not like this experience, or who don’t care about it either way, are free to suggest reforms such as sitting in a more western-friendly position when meditating (many Tibetan teachers in fact suggest this), not using thangkas and mandalas, not using the Tibetan language, etc. etc. My point is that the approach of those who don’t want these things should not be to try and take them away from those who do benefit from them.

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  281. Lol, I officially give up on the sign-in process. Anyone is now obviously free to contact me by email.

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  282. I am not judging anyone’s practice. I do sense a strong feeling, from some of those trying to establish a western Buddhism, that they are very bothered by the Tibetan cultural aspects of Tibetan Buddhism. I’m saying that focusing on stripping Tibetan Buddhist organizations of their Tibetan-ness might be the wrong approach; many people (myself included) treasure those aspects and find a deep resonance. We definitely feel that our way of practice is being ridiculed and attacked when we see people constantly posting the message that “Tibetan culture drives teachers to sexually molest their students, so we must remove a lot of the Tibetan cultural elements from Buddhism.”

    I see a group of people (or one person? Who knows…) who seem to be genuinely, deeply disturbed by the Tibetan cultural aspects. It’s true, I feel that if they are deeply, negatively affected by these sights and sounds, yet continually expose themselves to those sights and sounds, this might not be a healthy approach. If the student’s/practioner’s approach is basically, “I will benefit from Buddhism once it is shorn of these trappings,” then they are in danger of suspending the benefit of their practice until some imaginary, future point in time when Buddhism is “reformed” to their liking, as opposed to participating right now in a practice or group which doesn’t include as many Asian cultural aspects. It’s a genuine suggestion, and not an attack on anyone. You may not be in this situation at all, but there are very clearly some people who are, or at least who have strongly projected that image.

    I do not judge your choice. It is simply that it occurred to me the other day to wonder why on earth people who seem really turned off by Tibetan-ness are choosing Tibetan Buddhism.

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  283. Sheila, that last post was me on a strange computer.

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  284. As regards to your previous comments to me, Sheila, I really must respond. First, I am practicing Buddhism, not Tibetanism. This is not a cultural decision. I think Westerners sometimes miss that fact. And I am in it for the long run, with vows and deep committments. In my mind, Tibetan Buddhism, as transmitted by HHDL, is the purest form of Buddhism on earth. But this has absolutely nothing to do with Tibetan culture. Nothing to do with how one bows or dresses.
    Second, you might want to be more wary before you advise people on how and where they should practice. Unless you’re clairvoyant, you have no idea on what level I am as a Buddhist or what practices I am engaged in. You want to give that negative karma of judging my choice of practice a wide berth I believe. It’s quite dangerous.

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  285. A few points of order:

    “One could claim that all the postings on DI are false”

    I’ve never claimed this. In fact when I asked about Barlow’s accusations against HHST, it was you folks who eventually muttered in a roundabout way that those postings were false.

    “postings from women with sinister agendas who lie”

    I have no idea if any of the people posting here are women, or even represent more than one person, let alone more than one woman.

    “One could also then claim that MF, who is a reporter for a respected UK newspaper, has filled an entire document with wild fabrications and posted it on the internet under her own name.”

    She hasn’t posted it under her own name. To my knowledge, Mary Finnigan has never claimed authorship, other than coming close on RickRoss when posting a link under the pseudonym “Blue Dakini.” BTT refers to Mary Finnigan in the third person.

    Several (one? Who knows?) poster(s) here, along with DI, accused Bella of “attacking” Mary Finnigan by suggesting Mary was the author. DI says it has “no relationship” with Mary Finnigan.

    BTT in a nutshell: Write a long, snide article filled with factual errors (which could have easily been checked); accuse multiple people, by name, of impropriety and criminal activity, don’t have the professional courtesy to sign your own name, and conclude by yelling, “Believe it all, or you’re an abuser, too.”

    Are victims of abuse more likely, or less likely, to be believed after this article’s publication by DI? That should be the salient point for all of you.

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  286. Do you know the difference between Wrath that you suggested that I use against my neighbors and between ordinary Anger?

    I have not realized the nature of my mind and would never think that when I’m angry, I’m using wrath. If I would use wrath I would need to be in the state of complete non attachment. My Wrath would be then just a display of anger, but not true anger, because I have no attachment to the scene that is going on.

    I’m not on that level with my neighbors. SR might well be far advanced in his realization (at least he has shown the nature of the mind to MANY people), so it’s hard to judge if he is truly angry or if he is doing something else. I think he is doing something else.

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  287. I have received empowerments from SR.

    I also want to remind you Drolma, that if he at times is wrathful, it’s like once on a retreat. Most of the time he is not giving anybody hard time. We also do not always know what is going on at the background, the reasons why he is strict to the students.

    I have also heard HHDL is strict with his close students.

    I would lose my nerve with some fairy gentle lama. I’m sorry, but I think we wouldn’t like similar teachers.

    I don’t think it’s a good idea for a teacher to have sexual relationships to students. I’ve never met one that he would have had a relationship with – or I don’t even know any woman gossiped about being his consort. But I don’t know if he has ever been monogamous – and I don’t know if someone expects him to be. I actually wouldn’t expect it from any lama. It might sound a bit weird, but for some reason I can’t remember ever having had that expectation about any lama I have met. Can’t explain it. I have felt attachment to some lamas, but at the same time I just inwardly or automatically know I cannot have them or posses them.

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  288. HHDL tells us to investigate and make sure that the lama has at least the minimum qualitfications listed in the scriptures as required by a spiritual teacher. One of those key qualifications is having a tamed and calmed mind. To say that SR has that quality of a tamed and calm mind, even if he doesn’t demonstrate, it is not a strong argument to my way of thinking.

    Also, when one looks at SR’s behaviors during teachings, it is not a great leap of imagination to imagine him behaving the same way in a bedroom with a woman. The allegations in BTT don’t actually sound that strange in the context of SR’s behavior overall, the behavior we can all see.

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  289. Yes, Bella, I know that that’s the general claim at Rigpa. SR shouts abuse at his students publicly to show us our greater selves. I will tell you that this approach was very damaging to me. And yes, I did leave, yes, I was free to leave– but not before I was damaged. With so many students in the room, on so many different levels of need, so many different emotional vulnerabilities, I mantain that this public approach is very very dangerous. He cannot possibly account for all the responses that will occur to his verbal tirades.

    It is much safer to my mind for the spiritual teacher to behave in a way consonant with the teachings of the Buddha, that is in a way that demonstrates a tamed and calmed mind, one free of anger or harm. In this way, he leads his students instead of confusing them.

    I also repeat: How can a sexual relationship between a woman and her “master” be anything other than abusive?

    And if anyone starts talking about tantra (e.g. it is appropriate in tantra for a woman to have sexual relations with her spiritual “master”), I will remind readers that SR does not give initiations. He and his students are not bound by tantric vows and committments. Thus, it is inappropriate for such practices of highest tantra to occur between SR and his students.

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  290. If you think about: what purpose would it serve if he asked contradictory things from a student?

    He makes the student look at one direction, then to the other way, the student gets confused, looks for answers in her/his mind, they are not there. At the end the student finds the inner voice or the wisdom of their own minds and abandons the confusion.

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  291. At least I believe that SR needed her and didn’t want to let go of her, when she felt bad. I see the story so, that SR wanted to show her their connection in a wrong moment. She couldn’t take it.

    I think I have never seen him bark at ANY SENIOR students. I meant seniors as those who have been there for decades and are really close to him.

    He educates those newer workers.

    I haven’t seen him shouting or throwing tantrums. My mother has thrown tantrums or some kids in the day care, but him: no.

    I have never seen him out of order or out of charge.

    I have seen him asking the same question from a student many times until he gets what he wanted to hear. Clarity in the expression. it’s not only the words but also the way the response is given that seem to matter to him. Mind training in action.

    Of course, if those newish workers didn’t feel any devotion toward him, meaning trust, that may seem like harsh. But I have always seen it as somekind of theatre. One should not be so attached to one’s ways. But of course I know it’s not easy, like I said that even I have gotten my sore spots touched a few times. I even thought that in the early days every retreat was so emotional and I was faced with all kinds of issues, pain and love. Over the time it has changed – or I have changed: those same things don’t hurt anymore, I guess. Or I’m not that open anymore.

    After every retreat I have felt that I was cracked open and at the end sown back or healed. I also think that is one of the purpose of those retreats. SR asks people to stay until the end, because he is ‘doing something’ and has a plan.

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  292. For goodness sake, Bella, how can a sexual relationship between a woman and her “master” be anything other than abusive?

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  293. Bella, SR uses the word “master” when he refers to spiritual teachers. This is not a term of equality. During teachings, those senior students you refer to run around like wild, confused chickens as he barks out his(often conflicting) orders to them. They sit in subdued silence as he subjects them to public tirades of verbal abuse. He shouts and throws tantrums at these students– in public. These are not wild allegations, are they? All of us who have attended Rigpa teachings have witnessed them firsthand.

    So for you to claim that a sexual relationship with SR, with this type of power inbalance as a grounding, is no different than one with between an ordinary boyfriend or girlfriend is absolutely absurd.

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  294. I can’t remember that ex-dakini would have posted about harem. MF talked about orgies.

    I said her story is the kind of personal story with details that one would believe if one heard a story about abuse. The other stories do not sound real, but fantacy. Her story is the only one that sounds real.

    What was SR’s purpose with her? I don’t think he wanted to hurt her or abuse her. I really and absolutely don’t believe that was his intention.

    I have been in relationships and I know how deep feelings people can go through in them, so I don’t assume SR’s relationships to be just fluffy pink fantacy from the princess stories.

    If so many women are suffering in his hands, why they don’t just leave? Those women mentioned in the BTT don’t look like suffering to me.

    Senior students do not circulate women among themselves or accept scraps after their master has abused them. They don’t call women whores or in any demeaning fashion as MF has written.

    People live in their own relationships, some of those women mentioned are wives or girlfriends of senior students.

    I must also say that the deceast Ian Maxwell was no cult member and it was not required of him. He did what he pleased, even if SR didn’t like it. SR even said about it publicly while he was dying that they didn’t always see things in the same way. So there was and is space for your own personality and views in Rigpa.

    Maybe those senior students just know him a lot better than most of the people posting here, including me?

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  295. And as regards truth, let’s use a little analysis. There is significant evidence that something sexual is going on between women and SR. Isn’t that true? There are numerous testimonies both in BTT and on this thread and previous DI threads that SR has been having multiple sexual relations with students.

    OK. I agree, Bella and Sheila: One could claim that all the postings on DI are false, imaginary postings or postings from women with sinister agendas who lie. One could also then claim that MF, who is a reporter for a respected UK newspaper, has filled an entire document with wild fabrications and posted it on the internet under her own name. In order to take Bella and Sheila’s position, in fact, one needs to claim all of those things– all of them. That is a little like being a Holocaust denier, as Sock Man/Woman mentioned earlier.

    On the other hand, it does seem dangerous to jump on the bandwagon and claim that ALL of the allegations are true– e.g. without a trial or further investigation. What is totally reasonable to my mind is acknowledging that where there is smoke there is fire. Something is going on with SR that is causing women to need therapy. This something has to do with sex. That is the common thread, is it not? Sex and subsequent suffering. To claim that either are not occurring at all is simply ludicrous– as the circuitous methods of reasoning which both Bella and Sheila use indicate.

    Just one example of this circuitous reasoning: When ex-Dakini came on this thread with her story of sexual abuse at SR’s hands, Bella accepted her testimony as sounding genuine. In this testimony, ex-Dakini also said that she is needing therapy and is on a slow journey of recovery. E.G. she has been suffering badly. She also said that she could count, just off the top of her head, 15 women who had sexual relations with SR. She spoke of a harem.

    Yet now, the discussion with Bella proceeds as if ex-Dakini never posted. As if there’s no basis for any of the testimonies at all. Round and round we go. What is going on?

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  296. If I had started to shout at my neighbors like they do, do you think their shouting would have gone down or they would have thought they had even more reason to shout? I was fearing the latter, so I avoided them.

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  297. And everybody else, except SR are suffering from this, but not him?

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  298. I don’t see anywhere in the Buddha’s teachings where behaving in a way that is “above others” is a good approach. Silence sometimes is a good approach, speaking out forcefully is also recommended in many circumstances. In many instances, speaking out forcefully is actually required of a bodhisattva in order to prevent further accumulation of negative karma. It is also required in this case to clear the air, alleviate the confusion in students’ minds. There are a lot of people suffering in this affair– MF, the women who have made allegations, SR’s x-students and SR’s current students. (Yes, SR is even responsible for MF’s suffering in the context of Buddhism). The fact that emotions run so raw and high on this thread is an indication that there is a need for resolution. I don’t think the present course of action– silence and hoping things will blow over– is proving effective.

    People need truth. They need definitive truth for healing and resolution.

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  299. Chinapuppet, maybe you should visit Rigpa, then you would hear him saying all kinds of things. He is not silent.

    Or do you think that for the Tibetan cause it’s a good idea to ask VB and MF, her dear friend, talk in the public about their views? They can say what ever. It is very difficult to prove that you are innocent.

    China Puppet, if your ex girlfriend wanted to revenge against you – and she wouldn’t give a damn about anything else, like some seem not to care, what would you do?

    What I did with my idiot neighbors was that I just avoided them. Tried to behave in a way that I was above them – and didn’t succumb to their tactics and behavior. Because I burnt incence in my yard to get rid of their constant smell of smoking, they told all our neighbors that I’m smoking marihuana there. Took a year before my neighbors noticed that those people are not exactly okay in the head.

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  300. Thank you guru Sheila for your advice of how to live life. A few years in Dharma, a fixed perspective and a closed mind-Yup, all the qualifications necessary to tell others how to live their lives.

    IF SOGYAL IS INNOCENT, IT IS TIME FOR HIM TO STAND UP AND BE COUNTED. HIS CONTINUED SILENCE IS AN ADMISSION OF CULPABILITY.PERIOD

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  301. “As for the court case, he lost because he was guilty, he had to pay to silence the American woman, he was so desperate at the time very frightened indeed, he went into hiding for a while, sent Patrick to clean up his mess, asked lamas to do magic, hoping it would disappear, the practices didn’t work of course and he had to pay up, some death threats where involved, that’s not innocence in my book.”

    Lucy, you are listing these things as if you have learnt your lessons by heart, but it doesn’t sound like you have personally any clue.

    What is YOUR source? Do you know someone?

    My friend also knows those those people who MF wrote about in a nasty and stupid way. Her stories are not the truth.

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  302. However, if you look at many of my earlier comments, you will see that I have a very deep appreciation for Tibetans and their achievements and current struggles. Personally, it’s one of my causes. You are very quick to judge me from one or two comments taken out of context.

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  303. Sheila, it’s time for us to agree to disagree. I truly cannot find a place of enough accord between our perspectives to continue dialogue. I am very glad you are so happy at your Dharma Center. That is a good thing. We’ll leave it there.

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  304. I want to restate what I said about Tibetan Buddhism working for you, because I think it came off too harshly. What I mean is that it sounds like you are extremely uncomfortable with (most of) the Tibetan part. If you constantly have those worries, or even distasteful feelings, nagging at you when you try to practice, it won’t be a peaceful experience for you. You might consider (maybe you are doing this already) establishing a general Buddhism group, and rather than having one specific teacher, invitate a rotating roster of teachers to come in. Eventually if one teacher meets your new group’s needs, you could see if they would teach permanently. Some excellent new “lay sanghas,” for lack of a better word, have been started that way.

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  305. How are Tibetan teachers imposing values on you? Are you trapped in some room with bars? These centers are built by them, not us. We are under zero obligation to attend. The centers are generally established in response to local interest; the teachings are (at least in my sangha) give completely for free. If I don’t like the teaching style of the Sunday teacher, I can go to the Thursday teacher; if that sangha doesn’t end up being to my taste, I can go to the Cambodians, or the Zen group, or several other general Buddhism centers.

    None of these groups–Tibetan or otherwise–are under any obligation to launch a flurry of changes and modifications simply because I show up to teachings they are offering for free.

    To be very honest, it sounds to me as if Tibetan Buddhism doesn’t work for you. If you listen honestly to the words you use when describing it, if I didn’t know for example that you were studying from HHDL, I would suggest you try another form of Buddhism, simply because it seems that very little of Tibetan Buddhism appeals to you. That may be a misconception on my part, but listen honestly to the way you talk about your experiences–it doesn’t sound as if they bring you peace. Again, I may be completely wrong here. But that’s how it sounds.

    If Tibetan Buddhism doesn’t appeal to you, if it constantly bothers you, then isn’t the answer to find another approach that does appeal to you? I love my Tibetan Buddhist center. It is mostly male, mostly Tibetan, and very traditional. Teaching is in the Tibetan language with a translator. We bow to the teacher when he enters, in the traditional style. No one finds it humiliating; no students are yelled at, and there is definitely no sexual component. The sangha has been in place for over 20 years. We have countless teachers coming through, and in all cases it has been a source of peace, learning, and joy.

    Our sangha does not need radical reform, modification, lists of spiritual prenuptials, harsh pre-judgement of crimes that have never taken place. It is a fact, however, that over the years the teachers have worked very hard to make our center work well for Western students. They go out of their way to find great translators–not just for us, but for Chinese and Taiwanese students as well, and sometimes Mongolian. These people bend over backwards to make our experience positive.

    What specific center are you talking about which is fostering abuse? Who are the guilty parties, or those suspected of being guilty? What are they suspected of being guilty of? And I don’t mean suspicions raised by French tabloids: who are the people making the allegations of crimes or abuse they personally have experienced? Why on earth have they not gone to the police?

    I find it less and less convincing that you folks know anyone personally who has experienced genuine abuse. If you do, you should go to the police, encourage them to go to the police, or for God’s sake find someone willing to go to the police. You simply will not help anyone by taking no real-world action, difficult as real-world action is to take (I know, I’ve taken it).

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  306. Drolma, it’s up to HHST whether he wants to file suit for slander. No one is compelled to file against their slanderer if they don’t feel like it. Many people who are subject to this type of thing don’t feel it’s a good use of time.

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  307. Lucy uses exactly as ugly language as Finnigan, so that is the cause of my ‘paranoia’.

    I’m just asking where does she gets her stories from? The source?

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  308. bellaB, your paranoia regarding Mary is so boring! MF is a brave woman.

    Lucy, well said. Tantric-Tibetan Buddhism strongly influences the west since about 35 years and it needs time to look behind the holy facades and the special kind of violence and abuse.You told us the truth by saying that “he SR was so desperate at the time very frightened indeed, he went into hiding for a while, sent Patrick to clean up his mess, asked lamas to do magic, hoping it would disappear, the practices didn’t work of course and he had to pay up, some death threats where involved.” They use black-magic-rituals in moments of stress, through those they even try to kill people. Of course it doesn´t work. The court-case did not vanish by curses .

    Here a funny killing-ritual teached by a so called friend of the DL, scroll a bit and you´ll find the text in English, “How to kill people”.

    http://marte-micaela-riepe.blogspot.de/2011/11/totungsritual-im-tantrisch-tibetischen.html

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  309. As to your comments above, Sheila, you have it backwards. Westerners are not coming into Tibet imposing Western values. Tibetan lama(s) is/ are coming into the West imposing Tibetan values. It is clear that if a Tibetan lama were open about the fact that he believed he could freely have sex with his students, this would cause many Westerners to turn away from studying with him. They would go somewhere else. That is a possible solution, in fact. However, there is no transparency here in this situation at all and that makes things all the more dangerous for women.

    And I don’t give a damn that Tibetans don’t like to file libel suits. Compassion and decency demand it if the allegations are false.

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  310. Lucy, you guys keep accusing me of somehow promoting abuse against women.

    Look at the facts: if a woman comes to you folks with a story of abuse, apparently you will blog about it using a fake name. If they come to me, I will go to the police and sign my own name.

    My opinion on abuse is clear; it may even be clearer than your own.

    My opinion on frivolous accusations is also clear: they hurt women. Having now encountered your group’s efforts, I believe I am vastly less likely to believe any future online accusations against male, Tibetan teachers. Having read pages and pages of horrifying, frightening, detailed, genuine-sounding accusations against the Teacher-who-shall-not-be-named, only to find out it’s a complete and utter pile of garbage, I know for a fact there is foul play at work here.

    You have no idea the harm you’re doing to real women, by playing fast and loose with the facts on a subject like this.

    You have cried “fire” in so many situations where this is no fire, that it may no longer be possible for you to be heard should a real fire arise.

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  311. Lucy, where did you get your private knowledge? Did Finnigan send you an email?

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  312. Present day Tibetan women:

    In general Tibetan are freer than Indian, Chinese or Muslim women even though they live under men.

    Nomad woman is more independent than a farmer woman. Nomad woman can have her own cattle and even if she marries, it’s still hers. If her family doesn’t have a son, she can be the head of her family. She can fairly easily divorce. Possessions are divided into two between her and husband. She can also remain unmarried and just have children with different men. The Children are accepted to the family without hesitation. The farmer woman is not that free, since her husband owns the land. Husbands are most of the time away from home doing business or hanging around.

    Woman is considered a lower rebirth than man. Sadly not many know what was the view of Padmasambhava about this issue:

    Padmasambhava said to her, “The basis for realizing enlightenment is a human body. Male or female, there is no great difference. But if she develops the mind bent on enlightenment, the woman’s body is better.”

    Women are also considered more emotional and imbalanced than men. So familiar! Just think about the hysteria episode in our cultures.

    Then the sex: http://sacred-sex.org/scriptures/buddhism/5-advice-about-sex-from-yeshe-tsogyal.html

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  313. Well, like we’re saying, SR is a compulsive narcissist, a sadist who enjoys abusing and torturing his closest students, while pretending to care for the audience. He seems to have managed to fool quite a few of you…….but the truth is out there, in the media, in the blogs, in private and in public, the word is everywhere.

    As for the court case, he lost because he was guilty, he had to pay to silence the American woman, he was so desperate at the time very frightened indeed, he went into hiding for a while, sent Patrick to clean up his mess, asked lamas to do magic, hoping it would disappear, the practices didn’t work of course and he had to pay up, some death threats where involved, that’s not innocence in my book.

    The fraudster belongs to jail and the reason he has not been sent there yet is because it is still hard to prove sexual abuse unless and until the legal system gives itself the means to understand the mechanism of mental and emotional manipulation. Also, he is a clever predator who generally targets his victims very carefully: they are very vulnerable, young and impressionable, the dynamics are similar to family abuse, with threats, intimidation, emotional blackmail, forced complicity and bribes.

    Things are changing though, especially in France or Belgian where special police units are being trained to investigate this type of crime. It’s a matter of time…

    But as usual some of those blogging here haven’t got a clue as to what went down and is still happening in the privacy of his home, oh,…..wait…. it’s been published by several sources, but they don’t like it because it threatens their comfortable little belief system.

    Thanks Marte for the info on Tibetan feminist Tsering Kyi and for the link to her blog, she’s got her work cut out. Feminism is on the rise again, and that’s a good thing! With cases like SR’s and other gurus’, plus DSK and many more, there is a lot of work to be done. But times are changing, the tables are slowly turning.

    Whether people want to help that process or hinder it by denial, is their choice.

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  314. Tibetan culture, like the Native American nation I worked for, does not (or didn’t originally) have a Catholic, Anglican, Puritan or Methodist history. Missionaries from these groups did eventually impose their culture on Native Americans, including trying to enforce European ideas about marriage, and it wreaked havoc (along with other edicts) on Native society. It’s not really even fair to call the strictures European, since before organized (and enforced) Christianity came in, many European societies resembled traditional Tibetan and Native society. Romance between individuls was not limited, regulated, or enforced by social organizations, nor by religious organizations. Unions were a private matter, as well they should be. Being intimate with more than one person in ones lifetime was not considered “bad.”

    Who is a spiritual teacher? I know a young man who was in robes, taught us some mornings, and eventually chose the life of a lay practitioner. He married someone who had been at the Sunday teachings, and they have a happy marriage with two great kids.

    You guys are talking about “spiritual teachers” as if this is old Tibet, and we are in robes ourselves, studying and living with a spiritual master day in and day out–that kind of “spiritual teacher.” Who does that in the west? The kind of heavy trip you are laying on the “student-teacher relationship” does not apply most of the time in the West (or even in the East anymore).

    In the west we have multiple teachers, multiple speakers at our sanghas, some teach some classes, others teach others–some are young, some old, some men, some women, some in, robes, some not, some from Asia, some from Europe, some from the UK or the States, etc.

    If you truly believe that abusive sex is a systemic chracteristic of this religious tradition, why on earth are you attracted to it? The obvious reality is that abuse–sexual, physical or otherwise–is not an outstanding characteristic of Buddhism, Tibetan or otherwise.

    Abuse, wherever it’s happening, is a personal issue, a personal crime.

    When you say “these allegations” which allegations do you mean? By whom and against whom? As for slander, you can see by HHST’s silence on that matter, slander suits aren’t really the route most (any?) Buddhist teachers take.

    One dichotomy I notice here over and over–specific teachers are accused by name, over and over, but those making the accusations–or, in our case here, perpetuating rumors of accusations–don’t use a name. As if it’s completely fair to hang someone else’s name out there and say all manner of horrible things, but th en recoil at the thought of exposing ones own name to the same scrutiny. I find that incongruous and hypocritical.

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  315. And I read on Facebook that there are 28 attendees at SR’s UK retreat. That sounds a small number for SR– perhaps his students are begging for clarity as well?

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  316. A feminist tibetan woman´s voice against gender studies full of romantizism:

    On January 7th, Jamyang Kyi’s blogpost defended Tsering Kyi and saw the erasing of her blog as the silencing of women’s voice. Jamyang Kyi wrote: “the truth is that our culture fosters the physical and mental abuse of women. Women are expected to be obedient housewives. Women are expected to remain silent and when they speak their mind, it is seen as a bad omen. Women spend their lives near the stove in a house that belongs to the brutal and egotistical man”. She wrote that women of Tibet needed to proclaim their voice in the society. Jamyang Kyi applauded Tsering Kyi for breaking the shackles of tradition. In one of her recent blogposts she wrote critically about the failure of Tibetans to modernise and reform during the first half of the 20th century, which generated interesting comments from her readers. Through her blog, books and music, she has become an influential figure amongst a younger generation of Tibetans, particularly amongst college-educated women for whom she has given a voice to their concerns and struggles.

    Quote from: http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.de/2011/07/feminist-tibetan-woman-exposes.html

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  317. In fact, if the allegations are false, SR is COMPELLED to act strongly and quell them. He is compelled to stop Mary and others from accumulating further negative karma. That is, if he is concerned about behaving as a bodhisattva. Is that not true, Bella? Sheila?

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  318. ““I have the idea that even cheating in a marriage is not that heavy a crime”

    You are free to hold such ideas.”

    I’ts not my idea, but in Tibet that is the way it is. It’s different from our Christian based culture. You can study gender studies and cultural studies about Tibetan culture, so you don’t need to believe ‘gossip’ that I say.

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  319. Sheila

    “Sex between adults does not constitute abuse.”

    According to US law, where a teacher has a sexual repationship with a student, this a breach of fiduciary care and is an offence-why do you write such nonsense-you have said this before and have received the answer-troll

    Bella

    “I have the idea that even cheating in a marriage is not that heavy a crime”

    You are free to hold such ideas. However, those with even a basic knowledge of lay precepts know that to have sexual relations with anothers partner constitutes sexual misconduct-according to ther Buddha

    Sheila. You ask: if these allegations are true, why are there no criminal/civil charges being filed? I ask: if these allegations are slander, why is SR not filing for libel? The libel laws are pretty strict in UK.

    Please answer

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  320. Yes, Bella, you’ve brought up another important angle to this, which is the importation of Tibetan culture into the west. It doesn’t work and these problems are definitely a call for centers in the west to set their own cultural boundaries.

    It’s really quite simple, isn’t it? Either the allegations are false, in which case SR files for libel and publicly declares them to be slanderous– or they are true and SR does the right thing by (publicly) expressing true remorse for the sufferings of women. Why is he doing neither of these things? What’s going on?

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  321. I have the idea that even cheating in a marriage is not that heavy a crime. Marriage could be seen to some extent a financial affair. I know a Tibetan couple and they are very much in love, so I don’t really know how much it’s a question of love and how much about finacial issues. Usually Tibetans are very family oriented people.

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  322. In Tibet sexual relations are not that strict as in our culture (traditionally). Present day west seems a bit contradictory: on the other hand there’s a lot of freedom in sexual affairs and on the other hand not.

    In Tibet women can divorse and marry 2 brothers if she pleases. She is not sanctioned about those things as women have been sanctioned heavily in our cultures in the past. I don’t know about marrriage and the rules about that. Anyway people can quite easily divorse and remarry somebody else, both women and men. Women can be singles and that is not a problem.

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  323. And of course, one can flip your argument, Sheila. You ask: if these allegations are true, why are there no criminal/civil charges being filed? I ask: if these allegations are slander, why is SR not filing for libel? The libel laws are pretty strict in UK.

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  324. And I don’t know, but I suspect that sex with multiple partners is also an offense in Buddhist ethics– does anyone know?

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  325. And there are several allegations of adulterous affairs, which of course is an offense in Buddhist ethics, as is cohersion.

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  326. No, Bella, I gave up on the idea that women would feel safe to disclose here a long time ago. Sheila, it is common knowledge now among therapists that sex between spiritual teacher and student is harmful in almost all cases, even when it is loving and consensual. These are facts, you can research them. There is consensus that sex between spiritual teacher and student should definitely be made an offense– ex Dakini brought this topic up on this thread some months ago and it is very relevant. Because of the power differential, sex between spritual teacher and student is on par with sex between therapist and client, doctor and patient– and in some places, sex between teacher and student– where it is all an offense in most places. Germany has already made moves to have it made an offense in Buddhist centers there. So this is not a silly discussion– and where have you been because we’ve been discussing it for some time?

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  327. Then what are doing to Victoria Barlow when, as seems to be the consensus here (spoken or unspoken), we say to her “We don’t believe you?

    You guys have a very odd view of “teachers” and “students” in this whole thing. You act as if the students of Buddhism are three-year-olds and teachers of Buddhism are the only adults in the relationship. This is bizarre. Many students in my sangha are in fact older than the teacher.

    Sanghas are not preschools. Sex between adults does not constitute abuse. Sure, if someone is teaching a class on anything, and a “student” and he/she decide to see each other romantically, things could result from that–anything from good-natured teasing to worries about favoritism if it’s, say, a college course. Each situation is different; however, sex is not by definition abuse, and drawing up rules which convey that damaging misconception is not a path I would ever support.

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  328. It also doesn’t feel nice when someone is lying on your face and you can anytime see it and prove it.

    If some women have been abused, they shouldn’t exaggerate their experience, creating stories of thanka pictures and orgies. This story telling just makes me think the person is a liar and creates crazy stories in her mind. I do consider this person imbalanced and that prevents me from taking the person’s story seriously. (It just turns against her: I start to think SR is the victim of strange people.)

    Because of the lies already told here (which are clearly provable) I wonder if this surrounding is the best place for confessions. Even though you Drolma are very open to believe the stories and want to create such therapeutic atmosphere for victims (?), do you – as a therapist – think it will honestly work_here?

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  329. I’m not making this up, Sheila. It does great harm to victims of abuse to say, I don’t believe you.

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  330. The first time I heard of the group of psychotherapists who presented cases of lama abuse to HHDL in the 90s was from a therapist I went to, seeking help for the nightmare that SR did/did not instigate in my life. My therapist said that after the psychotherapists finished reporting on the many cases of students who were suffering psychiatrically from their experiences with lamas, His Holiness put his head in his hands and wept.

    Sheila, Do you see? He didn’t say, impossible, Tibetan lamas would never do such things. He felt the suffering of human beings.

    The cost of saying, ho hum, everything is fine in my part of the woods and so it must be fine in everyone elses, is neither a Buddhist approach nor a humane one.

    Most important, it is vital that women who have been sexually abused are not silenced or ignored. Do you see? That’s the way it was done hundreds of years ago. A woman called rape and everyone said, you asked for it. Perhaps in SR’s case, there are no criminal charges because he stayed within the bounds of the law in his seductions. In which case, we need to review the law, because sex between spiritual teacher and student is abusive and does cause psychiatric damage just as it would between a doctor and his patient, therapist and his client, where it is illegal, full stop.

    While I totally agree with you that boundaries need to be placed on the witch hunt/lynching tendencies that prevail, I also insist that women must be heard. Whatever opinions you might have of this woman or that woman, if she is able to garner enough courage to speak up about sexual abuse, she must be heard. For you to say that all these women are fictitious or liers is very cruel in my mind. Believe me, it is no easy deal to speak of sexual abuse; it feels like hell; it brings up tough stuff. This is why we must do as His Holiness does and feel for the suffering, weep for it, acknowledge it and then try to change our Dharma Centers so that every woman is safe.

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  331. S Puppet, Victoria Barlow has given testimony against Sogyal Rinpoche, as well as against many other teachers. Why do you accept her testimony against Sogyal Rinpoche?

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  332. What mental illness did VB say she had? She went to therapy, which is not a mental illness.

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  333. Round it goes, with someone saying “I heard someone say that someone told them Sogyal Rinpoche teaches harshly,” and a second person responding, “He doesn’t teach harshly,” to which the first person responds, “You’re a supporter of violence against women.”

    S Puppet, why do you blindly defend HHST after Victoria Barlow’s detailed, personal testimony – and she, at least, having the courage to use her own name? Where is your respect for the victim? Are you against victims of abuse?

    Check these two juxtaposed comments bearing in mind that the first instance of ridicule is the extreme response of ‘you support violence against women’ to someone who defends Sogyal while the second, ‘you are against victims of abuse’ is made to someone who refuses to accept the testimony of a well known fantasist with a history of mental illness (to which she freely admits)

    By your own ‘logic’, you are worthy of ridicule troll

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  334. troll

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  335. Well Drolma, I’m sorry if I’ve unfairly lumped you in with the Corboy types.

    I don’t feel particularly attacked; I suppose because I’m not a student of Sogyal Rinpoche’s, nor a member of Rigpa, and also because while you folks are attacking both those entities, I am not defending them. Rather, I am defending the democratic law of the land, which holds that no person shall be deemed a criminal without evidence. I would consider that stance to be the proper ethical and moral one as well.

    If you have an ounce of respect for justice, you should not in fact want me nor anyone to join in this group-incrimination of someone based solely on internet rumors and hearsay. That’s a ridiculous and destructive goal.

    If I suddenly become convinced Sogyal Rinpoche is guilty of something, what have you won? The ungrounded, blind-faith acceptance of a man’s alleged guilt based on no proof? That, in fact, would be the very blind faith which you spend a good deal of time saying is a danger to society.

    I have noticed that there is no consensus on what, exactly, Sogyal Rinpoche is allegedly guilty of. Pointed remarks? Uncomfortable advice? Rape? No one seems clear on this, so round it goes, with someone saying “I heard someone say that someone told them Sogyal Rinpoche teaches harshly,” and a second person responding, “He doesn’t teach harshly,” to which the first person responds, “You’re a supporter of violence against women.”

    S Puppet, why do you blindly defend HHST after Victoria Barlow’s detailed, personal testimony – and she, at least, having the courage to use her own name? Where is your respect for the victim? Are you against victims of abuse?

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  336. I have to say that I am greatful for Sheila on this blog. It’s not personally important for her weather SR is innocent or not, but still she can see through lies and deception that – I think you, Drolma, are quite blind to (not completely though). I didn’t get the impression that Drolma is against HHDL, but has find his teachings ‘safe’ for her.

    Chinapuppet is completely certain that rumours are true. Based on what? Rumours. Very academic indeed. Then he resites some library books that he has gathered from somewhere thinking it’s the final and only Buddhist doctrine, because he has read it. If Sheila and him were students at the University, guess who would have a career and who not?

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  337. No, Sheila, what happened is that you didn’t read very many of my comments and those that you did read, you didn’t read properly and then you simply felt attacked from all sides and lumped me in with the rest. Certainly, I cannot blame you for not reading my comments– because I do write too many of them! However, if you’re going to make a judgment about someone, you really do need to properly inform yourself.

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  338. Drolma, in nearly every “accusation” you (ironically) accuse me of making, I’ve added qualifiers like “I may be wrong,” “You may be right,” etc. I gone out of my way to say that I know internet communication is tough.

    You say you are convinced I’m an ardent and blind supporter of this or that, and I’m not. I am, however, an ardent supporter of the law of the land, and of innocent until proven guilty. If Sogyal Rinpoche were found guilty of any crime, I would accept it. I’m not a student of his.

    I point out the flaws and theories for possible motives in the anti-Sogyal roast because it bears the hallmark of a witch hunt and smear campaign.

    Do you realize that not one police report has ever been filed against this person, at least not to my knowledge?

    You people go on and on about a civil court case from 1994 in which Sogyal Rinpoche was found innocent of any crimes; yet today he has a small (two?) child and you have expressed absolutely no concern for the fact that you believe this child is being raised by someone you consider a rapist.

    There are simply too many inconsistencies like this throughout the online anti-TB campaign. Of course it raises red flags; how could it not? You’re saying all these are accidental, coincidences; I’m saying Occam’s Razor applies.

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  339. S Puppet, as I’ve made clear, Saulaan is my real Chinese name. It appears on my school documents and under my school photos. I try to use Sheila whenever possible, but in the case of Gravatar for instance, that name is already taken. I’ve explained here from day one that Saulaan/Sheila are both me, and why it’s happened. This honesty stands in sharp contrast to your own approach.

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  340. E.G. Sheila, I have NEVER heard His Holiness say anything close to what you say, which is that we don’t have to worry about lamas abusing their students because Tibetan lamas don’t abuse students. I have never heard him say that, have you?

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  341. For Westerners unfamiliar with Tibetan Buddhism, this approach of His Holiness might not seem very significant. However, it is a radical shift from past approaches to lama devotion in Tibet. In the past, the emphasis was very much on this teaching: “The faults we see in the lama are a projection of our own faults.” Now, His Holiness is making a different emphasis, saying that we should look for the faults in the lama, trust our own judgment and allow ourselves to be critical.

    This is a new, very cautious approach and underlying it is the need to be very cautious with introducing the vajrayana to students.

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  342. And His Holiness never mentions names, never accuses anyone by name. Never. This is something Tibetans don’t do. This does not mean that those names they don’t mention are cleared of wrongdoing. It just means that the culture of not naming names is strong amongst Tibetans. It’s a good culture too because the other extreme can be pretty nasty.

    However, Sheila, your great leaps of faith, e.g. A equals Z, just don’t hold up. If you wish to truly honor His Holiness, you will try to see past your black and white views, try to introduce greater openness and objectivity, all qualities that he greatly admires. Your accusations against me demonstrate that you are blinded by your loyalty to the Tibetan Buddhist cause. You seem unable to see any other reality than one completely for or against your views. This is blind faith. This is a very solid view of reality, one quite opposed to the Buddha’s own view of interdependence and objectivity.

    His Holiness once again, in a short teaching to Indians in Delhi several weeks ago, has spoken out on the need to be cautious in our approach to finding a teacher. He spoke once again about the need to take months, years– 12 years if needed– of “spying” on the teacher before committing. He spoke of the need to be educated about the necessary qualifications a teacher must have. He spoke of the texts being our real teachers. He spoke of how frequently students are very needy when they first encounter teachers and thus are vulnerable to abuse and manipulation. He concluded by quoting the Buddha: “You are your own master.”

    He is paving a new and safer approach to lama devotion, I believe.

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  343. I told you=shes a troll of the worst kind, Now shes raking up stuff that DI had to remove from the page last time she posted it. Count the posts, count the flat denials, its a troll!

    I LOLd at the post lecturing about using our real names being vital, you know, the one which Sheila signed as Saulaan.

    Get it in your head-this woman sees any attack on any Tibetan Buddhist as a Chinese attack and those who post them as puppets of the Chinese. Despite evidence to the contrary, she completely and flatly denies all allegations of abuse against SR and WILL NOT CONSIDER YOUR PERSPECTIVE-SHE HAS ALREADY DECIDED WHAT IS THE TRUTH!

    PS Saulaan/Sheila

    the ‘extremely serious’ allegations against ST you spoke of came from one person, alleging one instance of sexual contact (with a non-celibate Buddhist) by a woman with a clear history of mental illness (and yes I know she made comments about SR but she was one of many in that instance) Perhaps the reason HH hasnt commented is because he, unlike you, doesnt have time to waste on nonsense

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  344. Lol MF BTT HHDL SR HHST; soon no one will be able to understand us.

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  345. What has HHDL said about the allegations against HHST? It’s never occurred to me to ask that. They were extremely serious allegations–were they ever addressed?

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  346. Bella, I was refering to the meeting described by MF in BTT. When MF went to HHDL with her allegations years ago, apparently he had invited SR to be there as well.

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  347. You know, it’s just incongruous that several (one? Two? Who knows?!) of you here talk of having sexual experiences with practically every teacher you meet, or at nearly every dharma center you’ve ever attended.

    Yet I’ve studied with multiple teachers (probably some of the same ones as you), and at multiple dharma centers, and never once has sexual activity been suggested, hinted at, demonstrated or even brought up. And I’ve had plenty of pleasant personal experiences outside the dharma groups, so please resist the obvious urge to suggest it has to do with me.

    Your wild descriptions of rampant sex and pressure to have sex everywhere you turn in the Buddhist world is absolutely unrecognizable to me as reality. I strongly feel it is a load of bunk. I know plenty of Tibetan men in robes, young and old, and they have always behaved as gentlemen. Always. Without fail.

    I know women who have experienced real abuse from real abusers; I am no stranger to calls to the police–I am not in “abuse denial.” I am in fact a strong advocate for women’s proactive defense. I have made many a phone call and given several police reports in my time.

    Something about this Sogyal Rinpoche story is very, very wrong, and I detect a strong odor from the state of Denmark.

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  348. United States courts, at a complainant’s request, put Sogyal Rinpoche under a microscope for years and declared that he was not a criminal. The Dalai Lama, who you say is demonstrably willing to speak out against wrongdoing, apparently does not feel Sogyal Rinpoche is a criminal. Something like 99.99% of Sogyal Rinpoche’s students do not think Sogyal Rinpoche is a criminal.

    Have you honestly considered the possibility that Sogyal Rinpoche is not a criminal?

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  349. Could you please tell if any meeting between SR and Finnigan took place and if so: when?

    Where did you get the news about it?

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  350. Sheila, I wrote this on March 29 in dialogue with Tenpel: ”

    Very good points, Tenpel. It seems we expect His Holiness to be quite the superman. We expect him (to use American termonology) to be president, congress, supreme court, judicial court, and police department all at the same time. We want hime to be both judge and jury. This in addition to his tireless schedule of travelling the world, teaching his messages of universal love and compassion– in addition to his frequent audiences with Tibetan exiles and meetings with Western Scientists. It’s a little unfair I think– and quite impossible.

    Even the action of inviting Sogyal Rinpoche to his interview with Mary Finnigan, when she came with her complaints to Dharamsala, had merits and is consistent with his approach to all difficulties (e.g. dialogue, dialogue, dialogue)– surely, face to face dialogue between SR and Mary Finnigan was a valid approach towards getting to the bottom of these troubles.

    Yet His Holiness has not been silent either. He has taken on the role of supreme court in a way, to use the analogy above, the role of interpreting the Buddha’s instructions in strong and definitive terms for modern ears. For decades, he has been strongly speaking out against the system which supports lama abuse. We can’t expect him then to be the enforcer of the Buddha’s instructions, nor can we ask him to judge every transgression. It’s unfair.”

    Sheila, This statement is probably closest to my own feelings. In the interests of promoting human to human trust between us, I wanted to share it with you. I have presented other perspectives in my comments as well, because seeing many perspectives is an important approach to difficulties, one that His Holiness strongly advocates and that I very much respect.

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  351. Sheila, you have clearly not read what I’ve written and I find your accusations deeply offensive and disturbing. I have said that HHDL is silent about the allegations against SR. That is true– how is that in any way an incrimination? It’s a fact. HHDL has been silent about the allegations against SR. Fact, no big deal. What else have I written that you can interpret as having sinister intentions?

    Sheila: “When you say “maybe that’s why there is silence from HHDL,” that carries a negative, judgmental connotation. One doesn’t suggest a crime is taking place, point to another’s “silence,” and expect it not to look like an accusation, however subtle.”

    Give me a break. Because he’s my teacher, I want to better understand his actions. This is an honorable approach, not slimy or underhanded. It is an approach that His Holiness himself would endorse. I also want to defend him against the plethora of comments incriminating him because of his silence. So I acknowledge it.

    And I then proceeded to explore all the possibilities for his silence, which included the fact that nothing is proven, that it would be an infinite regress for him to start refusing invitations to teach from lamas whose reputations are in question, that he was probably turned off by Mary’s combative approach when she calls SR a fat so and so, that he might have been worried about stirring up sectarian trouble. I even talk about how he did the right thing by inviting SR to his meeting with Mary, that this was a straightforward way to address the trouble. I transcribed a big section of comments he made during his teaching at the Kalachakra Initiation, comments that are highly critical of lamas who teach for money and sex, comments that also criticize the Tibetan Tulku system. This all can be seen in my comments.

    If you go to http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/sogyal-rinpoche-and-the-silence-of-the-tibetan-buddhist-community-and-the-dalai-lama/
    you will find pages and pages of my writings and there is rarely a comment that doesn’t contain some quote from His Holiness or extol his virtues. It was I– me!– who exposed the very dangerous and slanderous inaccuracy on that website about His Holiness– the inaccuracy which said that the Office of His Holiness had sanitized his speech when they wrote up a transcript of it. I have written on that website several times that there is a silence among the Tibetan Buddhist community about abuses with lamas and there is the LONE voice of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I came forth quite strongly on that website, advocating for His Holiness, because I objected to the heading which reads “Sogyal Rinpoche and the Silence of the Tibetan Buddhist Community and the Dalai Lama.”

    And that is the only other website I have written on. Where else have I written these comments with secret, sinister intent that you refer to? I’d like to know.

    On that website, in fact, Tenpel and I have had quite a calm, considered, intelligent conversation and respect for His Holiness can be found to exude from all of it– respect for all teachers can be seen evident there. I don’t know who Tenpel really is, though I probably could find out, and he doesn’t know who I am, but we respond to each other at face value as human beings and everything stays very civilized between us. Wouldn’t you prefer to respond to me that way? Just take what I say as if it were what I mean and didn’t contain sinister intentions? Do you want to let this sordid affair make you twisted?

    Can you find one statement from me anywhere that actually is demeaning, slanderous, snide or disrepectful of His Holiness? The fact that you are so skewed and paranoid in your perceptions that you haven’t seen pure devotion and respect for my teacher in every comment I have ever made, that you can see in those comments a secret and sinister strategy to undermine His Holiness, is deeply disturbing to me.

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  352. Just one more thing–I take a risk when I post. I post as myself. My phone number and address can be found in a heartbeat. My place of work, everything.

    You take very little risk. I understand the desire for anonymity, I truly do; however, for people who claim to be so passionately devoted to a cause, you take no risk for it.

    DI Moderation: We are not in the business of making people feel guilty for using the anonymity of the site to express themselves. If you find it difficult to communicate and have found that you do not like people using it as way of communicating why do you not arrange to talk to them off line where you have a greater level of communication. That is if the person feels comfortable about it. Arguing that you are superior by virtue of your putting up your name is a pretty weak and is threat to peoples anonymity

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  353. Drolma, unless we use our real names–which I do, for this exact reason–all we have to go on, in establishing where we are each coming from, is what we have written.

    When you say “maybe that’s why there is silence from HHDL,” that carries a negative, judgemental connotation. One doesn’t suggest a crime is taking place, point to another’s “silence,” and expect it not to look like an accusation, however subtle.

    You are saying that you don’t mean it negatively; that may be true, but on the other hand, you may have said it purposely.

    Mary, too, when pushed, cries loudly that she is in “complete support” of the Dalai Lama, but then writes subtle, slimy things.

    All we have to go on is the words–I’m just saying your words could just as easily be coming from someone who is making a point to continually, very subtly, cast the Dalai Lama in a negative light.

    If that’s not who they’re coming from, then you might ask yourself why it is that the distinction hasn’t been made clear. Again–I do realize the online world is shorn of most linguistic cues that help us understand one another. I also realize that the number of posts from you which contain negative statements about the Dalai Lama is very high (especially if one includes your statements on other forums).

    It’s only logical to ask the question. It doesn’t mean I’m right; however it does mean that, just as I have to constantly reiterate that I’m not “against” anyone personally, you might need to make your own positions clearer.

    When you guys tear into something like the Kalu Rinpoche video like a pack of wolves at the kill, eagerly and gleefully spreading the story as far and wide as you can, almost crowing over it, it has an effect. What am I supposed to think? Honestly, how can you be surprised at my suspicions?

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  354. Sheila: “Drolma, while not addressing the Victoria Barlow problem, you have at least tried to appear moderate; however you use it as an excuse to slip in jabs against the Dalai Lama and the implied guilt of Sogyal Rinpoche.”

    You really really really have to be careful with your wild accusations. If you look back at EVERY SINGLE comment I have made, they have one constant, which is my complete respect for His Holiness. Where on earth have I slipped in a jab against him? He’s my teacher, for goodness sakes. I study videos of his teachings and read his books daily. He saved my life. I have several long quotes from him here, all geared towards proving that he is not silent on the topic of lama misconduct. It is I who questioned Mary’s slant against him. It is true that I work very hard at grounding my devotion towards His Holiness with reason and fair handedness–but this is mainly so that I can stay true to myself while still REFUTING the slights being made against him.

    If I have any agenda, it is only that one, and also to move this conversation towards a more intelligent and balanced approach, not a desire to appear moderate or be any special, cool type of Buddhist– and you listed quite a few types of Buddhists in your attempts not to call people names above. So please, everyone, let’s stop wild accusing!

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  355. And Drolma, just because it’s worth overstating it, I bear you no ill-will whatsoever. If my tone is ever too sharp, I do apologize–I enjoy vigorous debate, and believe we can all make points strongly without taking it personally. That said, it never hurts to reiterate that the object of the debate is (or certainly should be) the issue itself, and not cheap shots at individual debaters. Much nuance is lost in the electronic world…just another reason that world can’t be used as any proof whatsoever. However, it is interesting to see if and how logic can (hopefully) be exposed, even through mere words.

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  356. I haven never said Mary’s “all evil,” and I am generally pretty careful in my writing to make clear that it’s a person’s actions I have a problem with, not the person themselves.

    Mary presents herself to us as a journalist, and it is her journalism I have a problem with.

    Likewise when speaking of the Chinese writers, I acknowledge frequently that they do what they do out of a (however misguided) sense of patriotism, or sometimes because we can all use extra grocery money. It doesn’t make attacking other people for money honorable, but even so, I generally acknowledge (and believe I have so here at least a couple of times) that they have their reasons–that they’re real people, and not “all evil.”

    Speaking of conflation, I do not believe we can make any such solid statement as “SR is probably guilty” based on “testimony” given here. People here don’t even use their real names, so for all I know I’m speaking to only one person besides Bella.

    The overarching problem, for anyone here who actually genuinely is worried about abuse (which I have to say, I genuinely doubt), is a sense of suspicious flimsiness. Flimsy journalism, shaky characters wielding pseudonyms, shadow people flitting in and out–and when you follow those shadows, you find even more darkness.

    Is there really anyone who genuinely believes anything stated here? It’s hard to believe, because if you exist, you don’t do what it takes to make any of this seem believable. Drolma, while not addressing the Victoria Barlow problem, you have at least tried to appear moderate; however you use it as an excuse to slip in jabs against the Dalai Lama and the implied guilt of Sogyal Rinpoche.

    I don’t have ill feelings toward any person (well, if there are any here) individual, but please don’t think I don’t see your new approach for what it is.

    If you are a genuine person, you will have to distance yourselves from the Mary Finnigan-Victoria Barlow cloud (and Rick Ross cloudbursts) if you want to have any hope of convincing newcomers that there is a problem. If there really is a problem, we will be so turned off by all the garbage that we won’t really care to read further.

    Which leaves me with the question: what’s the real goal? Is it just that society has really sunk so low that all we have left of “journalism” and “investigation” is the the splash-and-stick approach? Doesn’t matter how ridiculous it looks, as long as some poor Fox-watching redneck mutters, “Them Rigpa people must be the Devil” ?

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  357. So Sheila, still waitng for a response to the question as to how much Janice Doe’s Lawyers were “fined”??

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  358. And I just want to make a comment for all on this thread who are practicing Buddhists– or for all who are sincere about the truth. The primary goal of the Buddhist teachings in general and on emptiness in particular is to loosen our grip on a belief in an independent, solid, absolute reality, because that has been identified by the Buddha as the source of our suffering. This is particularly the case when strong emotions such as anger or hatred arise, isn’t it? When we are angry, we conflate the reality of our object, don’t we? We see SR as ALL bad, solidly bad. We see Sheila and Bella as ALL ignorant, solidly deluded. Or Bella and Sheila see Mary as ALL evil, solidly evil. They see BTT as ALL trash, solidly trash. And so on and so on the circus goes.

    These are all exaggerations. All of them are exaggerations, but everyone is holding onto them fiercely, holding onto their territory and shooting rockets at the other side. True dialogue only happens when we stop doing that, when we stop exaggerating and allow ourselves to see things from many angles, many possibilities.

    For example, SR is probably involved in the sexual abuse of women, as women on this thread and elsewhere have testified. All these women are unlikely to be liers. However, there is no conviction of him, no decisive court case and so we cannot say that he is “clearly” an abuser of women, can we? We cannot call it solid fact, can we? And also, he might be an abuser of women by reason that spiritual teachers should not have sex with students but not by reason of actual criminal abuse. E.G. he might not need an ankle bracelet. Mary also is prone to exaggeration– that can actually be demonstrated.

    And SR is also likely even helping women and men alike, as Sheila and Bella have testified. Bella and Sheila are also unlikely to be complete liers. Isn’t it possible that these two realities– the reality of the abuser and the reality of the kind helper– can both be true? Is there only black and white?

    If we can’t accommodate all angles and realities, then our way forward is only going to be warfare. In fact, there is no way forward in the present “my way or the high way” approach– there is only lots and lots of wheel spinning.

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  359. Sheila, I agree about the circus. Perhaps this is why there is silence from HHDL.

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  360. Oh and BTW “We the public” I am not with that “we” you claim the support of and I am “the public”=safety in numbers??

    Please Sheila, instead of listing just the crazies who have made claims, why not check out the numerous others you fail to mention in the interest of open mindedness of course. Or do you perhaps have pre-established agenda (Theyre all crazy, Chinese spies and Sogyal has never actually been charged etc etc etc)

    Once a troll, always a troll

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  361. Saulaan/Sheila

    “I think that several different groups have converged on this particular Chinese whisper”
    Thats it! Anyone who claims abuse is a Chinese spy! Why didnt I think of that??

    “There is no criminal case against Sogyal Rinpoche, and there never has been.”
    As I said, until there is a case (with a guilty verdict) Sheila will not accpet that abuse may have occurred-period

    “Everything you anti-Sogyal Rinpoche people have provided so far has lead to a dead end.”

    And several newspaper articles, television coverage, web pages, further allegations of abuse-all of which remain unchallenged. “Dead end”?

    “On Feb. 21, 1996, the courts ordered the case dismissed and promptly fined Carroll and Phillips, Janice Doe’s lawyers.”
    So Sheila how much were they “fined” as you put it?”

    Gosh, how infuriating. You get evidence of something and then people start quibbling over the amount. Almost as absurd as refusing to accept that Sogyal/Rigpa settled out of court because no one knows the exact amount, isnt it Sheila?

    “OH for the love of Pete. I give up for real”

    Sounds promising but I doubt it.

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  362. I ask, because you are making a claim that Janice Doe’s Lawyers were fined, so I’m assuming you know the amount.

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  363. OH for the love of Pete. I give up for real.

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  364. Well hell’s bells, there’s my proper name again. I give up. It must be random.

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  365. Why do you ask?

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  366. saulaan, on April 11, 2012 at 11:51 pm said:

    “On Feb. 21, 1996, the courts ordered the case dismissed and promptly fined Carroll and Phillips, Janice Doe’s lawyers.”

    So Sheila how much were they “fined” as you put it?

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  367. I do not accept people as innocent or guilty, victim or perpetrator–I accept then as people.

    There is no criminal case against Sogyal Rinpoche, and there never has been.

    Everything you anti-Sogyal Rinpoche people have provided so far has lead to a dead end.

    Mary Finnigan publishes from other people’s magazines without permission, said Sogyal Rinpoche left Tibet when he was two, that the Dalai Lama “strides” (if he ever had such a gait, it certainly wasn’t in 2008), that Richard Gere puts gerbils where the sun don’t shine, and that he-who-shall-not-be-named (another Tibetan teacher) is a sexual criminal. I believe she’s silently changed her tune on that last bit. Not owning up to her mistake drives her journalistic stock down further, though the Gerbil Incident was quite enough on its own.

    Victoria Barlow, one of the key figures in the 1994 “lawsuit” which was dismissed and ended with the Janice Doe’s lawyers being fined by the California courts, has published (and continues to publish) pages of slander against Tibetan teachers, including he-who-shall-not-be-named, a well loved and respected head of one Tibetan school.

    The American Buddha couple, if not genuinely round the bend, spend an inordinate amount of time making it look that way.

    Our German and Dutch compatriots here would have us believe they were each sexually violated–via out-of-body travel–by one or the other of the Karmapa’s, and one of those incidents when the Karmapa was twelve and the “victim” was 30+.

    This is quite the circus. It is utterly unconvincing of being anything other than a colorful show designed to keep Tibetan Buddhism under attack.

    By the way, I found another piece of misinformation in BTT, which states that Janice Doe named her legal opponent as “Sogyal Lakar.” That is untrue. The lawsuit names Rigpa Fellowship and Sogyal Rinpoche.

    On Feb. 21, 1996, the courts ordered the case dismissed and promptly fined Carroll and Phillips, Janice Doe’s lawyers.

    When we the public found out and wrote here about the case being dismissed, and the complainant’s lawyers fined, both Finnigan and Barlow disappeared from our discussion here.

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  368. And, Drolma, better to trammell convictions and sensitivities of blind complicities than to blame victims.

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  369. Yes, of course I did.

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  370. I think that several different groups have converged on this particular Chinese whisper, and get lured into thinking combined force will somehow support their individual causes.

    The odd thing is that instead of combining to make a bigger effort, the groups seem to sabotage each other. E.g. the fervent anti-Buddhism of the Catholic and fundamentalist folks works against the (sometimes posing as) moderate Buddhists’ efforts; the (sometimes posing as) liberal women’s-rights advocates are sabotaged by the testosterone level of the Corboy types and the racism of the anti-Asian types, etc. etc.

    And in this fray, which they no doubt joke about after hours, a few mainlanders work very diligently on their “modern Western Buddhist” personas, but slip up every now and then.

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  371. Helen and Marte-Micaela, have either of you filed charges? That would be constructive.

    Trammeling the religious convictions and sensitivities of others is not at all constructive.

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  372. Gee Bella
    It really does seem that you are into hero worship. Dont you remember the saying “Dont rely on personality, rely on the meaning of words”? its from the Buddha yknow. Now he was one hell of a charismatic guy……ooops!

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  373. bellaB, some paranoia is hurting you, isn´t it?

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  374. Helen, were you sent by Finnigan here?

    The more BS you talk, the more I believe SR is completely innocent and you are a bunch of old nasty hags (and I don’t mean wisdom goddesses).

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  375. This man:

    Ian Maxwell met Sogyal Rinpoche in 1977. He began to work for Rigpa in London shortly afterwards, and met all the great teachers who passed through the centre in those early years. He received teachings and empowerments from Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche and Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche on many occasions, and was one of the first western students to complete a traditional three-year retreat. He went on to establish a long-term retreat centre at Dzogchen Beara, in the south west of Ireland, where so far more than 100 people have successfully completed retreats. He also worked hard to establish the Rigpa Shedra, which is now in its sixth year and has attracted many of the most eminent teachers of Tibetan Buddhism and numerous students from all parts of the world. In the 1990s he travelled extensively throughout America, Australia and all over Europe, giving talks, guiding countless students and clarifying their practice. He even gave a series of talks to western students in Kathmandu in 1998. He was particularly knowledgeable about the Vajrayana teachings and sadhana practice, and had an extraordinary talent for communicating the meaning of these teachings and making them accessible to everyone. Towards the end of his life he placed great emphasis on the practice of loving kindness.

    In 1992, at the inauguration of Dzogchen Monastery in South India, he caught the eye of no less than His Holiness the Dalai Lama himself, when he made a speech in his presence. His Holiness was impressed and was later heard to remark, “He seems a very capable person.”

    Ian Maxwell passed away in Paris on 4 December 2005 at 9.27am with several of his closest Dharma friends by his side. Phowa practice was performed on his behalf by many great lamas, including Kyabje Trulshik Rinpoche who was in Lerab Ling at the time. A guided loving kindness meditation was performed at his funeral.

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  376. Helen, tell more:

    “Sogyal’s personal attitude to the dying that some of his older students witnessed was something else and contributed to their becoming former students. In this, as in much else hypocrisy predominated. Personal grief and the resulting vulnerability is a state that he has used to sexually abuse, and generally exploit in any way he can.”

    I happened to be there when a senior student was dying and SR spoke on the phone to him, publicly, so that we would also get to hear what advice he would give to us, if we were facing death. Trulshik Rinpoche was giving empowerments and spoke to the dying student too. A Tibetan monk who resides in LL saw a huge rainbow above LL on the special day of the dying process of that student. I can’t remember the name of that special day. The monk said he must have been a great practitioner. The person who died had been a student of Dudjom Rinpoche and Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche too. He was really a special guy and I was really sad to see him go, since he had taught me important practices. He just knew the practices through and through, the innermost meaning of it all.

    I really see no point in your story Helen.

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  377. How did SR abuse Helen? I have missed that personal story, obviously.

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  378. Well, I and my family got psychological support, therapy and help from Tibetan Buddhism, and it cost 12 dollars.

    We are a widely-read family with many, many books in our libraries; none of them provided what this particular book provided–help for the dying.

    To each their own.

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  379. Those who are selective in their reading may not realise that Sogyal’s book is basically plagiarism, he saw a market and tapped into it by cleverly compiling something that combined traditional Buddhism
    interspersed with self-promoting anecdotes and some modern techniques of palliative care, some of which had been developed in western hospices before he started teaching.

    So: if someone collates information from others, and that information is useful to someone else under particular circumstances, then they automatically gain the right to sexually abuse, humiliate and exploit without criticism because it might cause disillusionment?

    Yet more mis-direction here, with added emotional blackmail: it reeks of that superstitious fear common to the religious mind-set. Whatever it believes to be sacred is also held to be so fragile that anyone who even speaks out against it is accused of being ‘evil’. This is a characteristic of the patriarchal fundamentalist: trying to distract from abuse and protect the abuser by denigrating the victims.

    Sogyal’s personal attitude to the dying that some of his older students witnessed was something else and contributed to their becoming former students. In this, as in much else hypocrisy predominated. Personal grief and the resulting vulnerability is a state that he has used to sexually abuse, and generally exploit in any way he can.

    Nothing is given without an ulterior motive, because he is incapable of functioning otherwise. He lures and predates, this is what many religious leaders do, otherwise they would have to work for a living.

    If people are in need of comfort they do not need Tibetan Buddhism, they can get psychological support, therapy, help from family, friends, palliative care, pastoral care, anything but a Guru, because they come at a very high price indeed. More than the price of a book.

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  380. No, Saulan, not that way. Helen´s position is honest and a lot of serious researchers as well as journalists and others share this position.
    You can´t regarding you are a cult member.

    Helen, I am victim of abuse by Nydahl and Trinley Thaye Dorje,
    more of my story on my blog. And I have a lot of posts here too.

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  381. Helen, you are citing as “clarity of mind” the kind of razor-sharp investigative techniques which include relying on The Onion as a news source. Honestly, woman.

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  382. In response to Marte-Micaela:
    It’s very encouraging to read something here that expresses clarity of mind and the moral courage to understand that the only response to abuse is to leave and expose it for what it is without ambivalence. There is no middle way or compromise that doesn’t become complicity.

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  383. Helen, I would add that 12 dollars is a small price to pay for a book whose ecumenical advice and emotional coping strategies were of immeasurable help to myself and my family as our Dad dealt with cancer and eventually, death.

    It is precious advice, for those with whom it resonates; one of my greatest sadnesses in this whole debate is to think that someone else’s experience with these teachings may be ruined, and any benefit they could have received, destroyed.

    I have no doubt, in fact, that that is the goal of at least some here. For me, as someone who has seen firsthand the comfort these teachings can bring, I find the acts of those seeking to destroy that comfort, nothing short of evil.

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  384. Obviously the Dalai Lama has no judiciary authority, this is even more mis-direction which avoids the issue that he has a moral obligation not to actively endorse a sexual abuser.
    Similarly, the argument has long since gone beyond whether or not Sogyal is an abuser, especially to those of us who have had personal experience. If you do not have the decency to respect someone who has the courage to speak up about something painful you should ask yourself why? Who or what are you so desperately trying to protect?

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  385. You are right, Helen. That Old-Boy-Network is always going on and does never ask for the suffering of women.
    The only way is to leave, now and utterly. Otherwise our compicity with the abusers is also going on.

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  386. Or, Sock Man/Woman, maybe I’m being idealistic. Perhaps the sectarian divisions and jealousies and rivalries are still there, though more underground. Perhaps they’re even stronger because of the precarious state of affairs in Tibet. Perhaps the Kagyus have, in fact, taken over the Monlam Prayer Festival and that is why HHDL has stopped giving his spring Monlam teachings. Maybe HHDL doesn’t dare speak out against a Nyingma lama for fear of stirring up serious sectarian trouble.

    Just another angle, another possibility.

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  387. ‘Narcissistic Personality Disorder,’ is a psychological term first used in 1971 by Dr. Heinz Kohut (1913-1981). It was recognised as the name for a form of pathological narcissism in ‘The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 1980.’ Narcissistic traits (where a person talks highly of himself/herself to eliminate feelings of worthlessness) are common in, and considered ‘normal’ to, human psychological development. When these traits become accentuated by a failure of the social environment and persist into adulthood, they can intensify to the level of a severe mental disorder.

    Severe and inflexible NPD is thought to effect less than 1% of the general adult population. It occurs more frequently in men than women. In simple terms, NPD is reality-denying, total self-worship born of its sufferers’ unconscious belief that they are flawed in a way that makes them fundamentally unacceptable to others.

    In order to shield themselves from the intolerable rejection and isolation which they unconsciously believe would follow if others recognised their defective nature, NPD sufferers go to almost any lengths to control others’ view of, and behaviour towards, them. NPD sufferers often choose partners, and raise children, who exhibit ‘co-narcissism’ (a co-dependent personality disorder like co-alcoholism).

    Co-narcissists organize themselves around the needs of others (to whom they feel responsible), they accept blame easily, are eager to please, defer to others’ opinions and fear being seen as selfish if they act assertively. NPD was observed, and apparently well-understood, in ancient times. Self-evidently, the term, ‘narcissism,’ comes from the allegorical myth of Narcissus, the beautiful Greek youth who falls in love with his own reflection.

    Currently, NPD has nine recognised diagnostic criteria (five of which are required for a diagnosis):

    • has a grandiose sense of self-importance.
    • is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, ideal love, etc.
    • believes that he/she is special and unique and can only be understood by other special people.
    • requires excessive admiration.
    • strong sense of self-entitlement.
    • takes advantage of others to achieve his/her own ends.
    • lacks empathy.
    • is often envious or believes that others are envious of him/her.
    • arrogant disposition.

    Sogyal ticks most of these boxes and his devoted students behave according to the description of co-narcissists.

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  388. Regardless of which particular Buddhist leader you each feel should “go after Sogyal Rinpoche,” monks are not police. They are not lawyers, and they are not private investigators. The Dalai Lama has no work permit for France that I’m aware of; no legal ability to set up shop on French soil and somehow conduct a genuine investigation into anyone or anything.

    You have all swallowed whole the concept that Sogyal Rinpoche is “guilty of something” but if you want that dream to manifest as real-world consequence, there has to be a real-world investigation. Neither the Dalai Lama, nor any other member of civilized society, can (thank God) simply claim self-declared “spiritual authority” and declare another person guilty of something.

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  389. By the time the Tibetan Book of Making a Living Out of Dying was first published, containing the Dalai Lama’s foreword in 1992, the issue of Sogyal’s abusive behaviour had already been going on for several years and was well known in Buddhist circles, the Dalai Lama had by this time already received letters from women who had been abused by Sogyal and so was quite well aware of it.

    The first conference in Dharamasala on the subject that he hosted was held at the request of Western teachers in 1993, the court case in the States: 1994, and so on.

    Despite this, in 2008, following no less than 15 years of the matter being firmly and increasingly in the public domain, the Dalai Lama inaugurated Lerab Ling, thus giving Sogyal his personal endorsement in the most forceful, public way available to him.

    How could this overt encouragement possibly act as any kind of brake on Sogyal’s abusive behaviour? The only possible result is completely the reverse in fact.

    And how many vulnerable women have and will be abused and how many people suffered humiliation or wasted their lives venerating a

    xxxxx*

    because any doubts or reservations they might have had about Sogyal will have been put aside directly because he has been endorsed by the Dalai Lama?

    DI moderator: *an alleged sexual assault perpetrator

    This can’t be interpreted as indifference, diplomatic silence, passive or tacit approval it is active, explicit, public, unconditional endorsement of Sogyal and therefore active complicity in his serial abuse of women.

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  390. Yes, in the modern world, there is no further use for the sectarian division of lineage teachings. HHDL speaks rarely of Gelug, always of Tibetan Buddhism. HH Karmap is doing the same. The Great Monlama Prayer Festival, once fought over between Kagyu and Gelug, is now being shared between the two. Etc. etc. Lineages with clear sectarian divisions had some use in old Tibet, but no more. Now it is simply important that those important lineage teachings be upheld. That is what the leaders of all the lineages are busy doing.

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  391. Sheila “The structural hierarchy being invoked does not exist.”
    No, thats ‘did not’. Ever since Sogyal started parking himself onstage whenever HH is in town, and giving lectures to fringe groups at his teachings, and putting photos of HH at the fore in his ever increasingly costly Rigpa calendars,(fpmt do a free calendar online BTW) he forfeited the right to that defence. He has bought into the illusion of the DL as the overall head of TB 100%-cant pull out now.
    Situ also did the same when he asked fpr his Karmapa to be vetted-HH has NO authority in the Kagyu but, followers of Situ et al will now have the pleasure of the Gelug telling them how to run their tradition-not so long since they tried to destroy it!.

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  392. Seems like the best approach to this trouble lies somewhere inbetween Sheila and Helen, a sort of middle way between Helen’s nihilism and Sheila’s absolutism. If we look at all the angles, over and over, more possibilities appear and things look less stark, less frustrating. Isn’t that true?

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  393. That is, Sheila, His Holiness and other lamas are the ones with best access to SR’s conscience.

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  394. Sheila, “You’re suggesting the equivalent of asking an Anglican lay minister to “answer to” a Catholic archbishop. It just doesn’t work that way. The structural hierarchy being invoked does not exist.”

    That’s not true. Even from a Sectarian viewpoint, it isn’t true anymore. For goodness sake, SR has built an entire retreat center in His HOliness’s name. He doesn’t “answer to” His HOliness as to an employer or a Pope– he answers to him and other lamas in the sense that he cares about their opinions.

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  395. Well, now there’s the “Sheila” again. I wish I could make that consistent.

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  396. You’re suggesting the equivalent of asking an Anglican lay minister to “answer to” a Catholic archbishop. It just doesn’t work that way. The structural hierarchy being invoked does not exist.

    As for Bardo Thodol, I read Tibetan Book of Living & Dying first, and Bardo Thodol much later. Both–and especially, for me, that sequence especially–made for one of the most important spiritual experiences of my life. Incredibly moving, incredibly helpful in dealing with death in a profound and positive way.

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  397. Mis-direction? No, I was simply pointing out errors in your wild accusations. Along those lines, I would point out that SR’s book was published in 1994, not “many years” after HHDL was “being made clearly aware that the man is a spiritual rapist.”

    And yet, as I have said before, there is a stain on every Tibetan lama in this mess. Of course there is and that includes His Holiness.

    However, it is possible that this fact could even be helpful in the long run. If SR has His Holiness and other lamas to answer to, this might make it more difficult for him to keep up the facade and ignore the allegations. I do think SR cares a lot about his standing with other lamas.

    You see, Helen, I find it helpful to look at things from lots of different angles instead of flying off the handle about one idea. It gives a more balanced, sane view.

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  398. Indeed Helen, no matter which way you slice it, the Dalia Lama is not practicing what he preaches.

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  399. Sadly, even more weak, disingenuous comments here, springing from the very sort of feeble, sycophantic reverence and projection that has perpetuated religious oppression for centuries.

    There’s really no point in trying to refute an argument if you don’t have the honesty to address the most telling illustration used. The DL has written the foreword to Sogyal’s book and inaugurated Lerab Ling and this after many years of being made clearly aware that the man is a spiritual rapist. Of course it is possible to skirt around that as much as you like, citing all sorts of other things that you deem positive while deliberately ignoring the most important point that you have no response to, because none exists to bolster your fantasies.

    This is a very good illustration of mis-direction indeed. Ultimately you become an apologist for something that decent people find repugnant. This is because of a type of intellectual corruption that makes you believe in a permanent state of moral innocence and clarity that obtains both in yourself and also those with whom you identify.

    Of course, we’re all free to do this if it makes us feel better even it means refusing to accept the truth and ignoring other people’s suffering through abuse.

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  400. And Bella, Christianity is a faith based, theistic religion– Buddhism is neither faith-based nor theistic. Big differences there.

    Helen, I do want to add that if you are going to criticize Buddhist practitioners on the grounds that they are ignorant, you need to be very careful that you are also not ignorant in your criticisms.

    E.G. you claim that there is no evidence that Buddhist practices obtain the results they claim and that is actually quite false. That is, in fact, much of what scientists are doing with His Holiness these days. Far from being a novelty to scientists, His Holiness is a friend and colleague in their work. They have been meeting for decades and when they meet, they listen to each other– mainly, His Holiness listens to the scientists who bring him the results of their most recent findings. Then he asks questions. They laugh a lot together. It’s wonderful to watch. The most recent conference was with leading environmental scientists, presenting the latest findings on global warming and other issues. This was a very serious meeting. His Holiness has supported environmental activism for decades.

    The goal of these meetings? Improving people’s lives. In the Environmental Science conference, they spoke of the difficulty of changing people’s minds. In conferences on psychology, they speak of the power of altruism. Richie Davidson, a very prominent neuroscientist, is testing brain activity in those who meditate on love and compassion. These scientists are determing that altruism improves mental and physical health. They are building a case for introducing moral education in our schools.

    These meetings bridge the gap between science and contemplative practice. They are paving a new type of relationship between humans and ethical conduct, one that is grounded in reason. It is very inspiring work, which is why I gave you the link.

    Before you jump on a ‘Let’s beat up HHDL” bandwagon, you need to know the person you’re beating up. He does not propigate Buddhism, did you know that? He is very clear that his main business in the world these days is to 1. Promote human values and 2. To promote religious harmony. He is tireless in this effort.

    He also speaks out against the misconduct of lamas, frequently and strongly. He is the only lama who does that. He does not name names. He does not have the power to hire or fire lamas. Those are the facts and boundaries you need to place on your criticisms.

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  401. I think Christians, hard core Christians have much more devotion than Buddhists. Buddhism has that academic side to it.

    How to explain devotion so that it doesn’t sound too tacky? At least I’m
    not crying my eyes out, screaming and singing around… I don’t think one could see it in me in any way if I felt devotion or not. It is somehow feeling deeply that something just is there, it is like it is – it’s not empty, fantacy. I don’t know if it is even too emotional thing.

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  402. Without a conceptual mind and conceptualizations he would not be able to write a word in his book.

    – True. But the mind is energy and SR’s mind has lots of it. One can feel it. While meditating I also feel energies in my body, subtle channels, I guess… that are nowhere described in our cultures.

    “There is also imagination and intuition in science, because without them there would be no ideas to be checked against the reality. Great scientists recognize that their theories were born after they had moments of so called inspiration, i.e. imaginative exploration.”

    I have read that too and agree. I’m not against all science. Playful animal torture I can’t stand. Swapping the head of animal to another body… One knows that scientific discoveries are used in a wrong way.

    If LOVE, limitless love is a hallusinogenic created without substance abuse, then it may be that.

    SR talks highly of Jesus and compares him with his own devotion to Guru Rinpoche. If Jesus and Guru Rinpoche were both very advanced spiritual beings, is there anything to blame for? I don’t care if they were both “sons of God”.

    I think SR means that enlightenment is about uniting with the collective energy. It’s like union with god.

    How the collective, the all pervasive energy, is described is the same as decription of God: love, all knowing wisdom, transcends all, is everywhere.

    Christians just put there the name tag God to make a distiction between us and that God. In Tibetan Buddhism the understanding is that there is no separation and never has been, but we just don’t see it, in our ordinary mind’s eye.

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  403. Christianity denies Gnostic texts, Gospel of Thomas, Pistis Sophia and the rest. Those could be Christianity’s esoteric teachings, but they are denied.

    Priests who wanted power, decided there will be only one life from now on. And people should pay us money.

    I think it’s wrong that a God will judge people to eternal hell or heaven just for one life. I think this concept os one of those things that make me want to scream: there is no JUSTICE! hat about people who never even heard about Jesus? They are millions. Are they all in hell now?

    I always felt there is more than one life. As a child I really though I don’t want to be born anymore. My parents never talked to me like that. It was as if I just knew there were a past tragic life behind me.

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  404. I read Bardo Thodrol and bought in English in Rigpa.

    The priests just make it so obvious to me that it’s not the way.

    I don’t know if I’m manipulated or not by SR. I haven’t spent enough time with him closely. I just wonder what reason he would have to manipulate – especially me. I don’t give him anything.

    There is more to SR than a plain scholar would see. It’s an old joke about scholars and true realized beings.

    I don’t think SR cares about his fortune. He got h
    ospitalized a few years ago, almost died. There is always the awareness that he could die any moment. Grasping to fortunes? I don’t think so.

    Would I die for Buddhism? No. I’m too coward at the moment. Even though my death would rescue all future sentient beings? Maybe I should die for them. I guess I would, if it was a real deal.

    Shoko Ashara. SR has also said jokingly that Rigpa is not a cult. “If I ask you to die, DO NOT!” He said it completely joking, so don’t double thinking.

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  405. Alternative,

    I only read Zen poems and Roshi’s book before Sogyal Rinpoche’s (from Buddhism). I was very interested in religions already in high school (or earlier) so I did think about things from early on.

    My world view is too different from Christian. It’s not based on certain persons. I already decided against it in high school and it hasn’t changed. My view has only gotten stronger.

    I don’t agree:
    1. man was given dominion over animals…

    I really at times prefer animals to humans. I don’t idealize humanity. Human is a stupid, arrogant monkey that makes experiments on other monkeys and animals. My view is not a Buddhist one, noticed that? But Buddhists do consider or respect animals and nature more than Christians.

    2. Sacrifice. I have been feeling closeness to nature, more than awerage. I have been interested in Shamanism, but never met any of those people, except some Tibetan Buddhist lamas could be considered as such. I don’t like animal sacrifice, so there goes my limit again. Buddhism doesn’t support any other sacrifice than our ego. I think it’s far deeper that Jesus being sacrificed for our sins. The interpretation of Jesus as a sacrife to God is unsustainable. Why would God need sacrifice? The killing of Jesus was just an example of our species cruelty, hunger for power and stupidity.

    3. I am drawn to esoteric stuff, hence my interest in Shamanism, Tibetan Buddhism and Gnosticism. I just think Tibetan Buddhism is a walkable path, Gnosticism is a dead religion, Shamanism is more limited.

    4. I don’t believe in Satan. I don’t believe in 2 forces: good and evil. Buddhism is beyond the extremes, so it’s more intelligent approach.

    5. I only studied very little about Hindu gods and goddesses. I was told that in Tibetan Buddhist monasteries in India Hinduism is also studied and a monk told me that Hinduism and highest Buddhist doctrines have a lot in common. I don’t like animal sacrifice to Kali.

    6. I’m drawn to Shintoism too. I get it.

    7. Tibetan Buddhism has a path layed infront of you that you can walk spiritually and psychologically, directions are given. Then I also found a teacher I felt a connection to.

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  406. Helen, I agree that SR’s actions have been harmful to all Tibetan lamas. How can any of us ever totally trust a lama again? How can we approach him/her without wondering if he/she is an abuser? You are singing to the choir about that. It is something of a family joke among my daughters that Mum is afraid of lamas. They think it’s funny to be afraid of a Tibetan lama! The truth is, I haven’t set foot in a Dharma center or spoken to a lama in 7 years. I was invited back to the monastery last year and refused—out of distrust. And yes, you are right, I cannot prove that HH Dalai Lama is not an abuser of women or isn’t complicit with SR—because I have never been that close to him.

    However, I made a decision 7 years ago not to go to that dark place where you speak from. I guess I’m stubborn, but it seemed like if I became bitter, dark, cold and pessimistic because of the abuse I had suffered, then I would be letting my children and myself down in a big way. My suffering would have been worth nothing. I came to Buddhism because of its message of hope and decency. The fact that its messengers from Tibet weren’t delivering their message straight wasn’t going to defeat me. So His Holiness has helped me a lot with this determination. His teachings and approach to life have helped me carve a positive, strong, decent practice of Dharma out of all this mess—he’s very consistent and his approach is grounded and it works. So I judge him on that basis and have faith in his decency and compassion. In that way, I’m a little like Bella, because I can’t prove these things for someone else—so we’ll have to agree to disagree about His Holiness.

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  407. Thank you, Saulan and S-puppet, I didn´t know that! But it is a funny story, isn´t it?

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  408. Bella, I do not know what kind of books have you read prior of reading “The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying”. I specifically made reference to the fundamental religious texts (Pali Canon, Bible, Koran, Bhagavad-Gita etc.) and philosophical and psychological works. I was wondering, for example, if you read Bardo Thodol prior of reading “The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying”or afterwards, if at all.

    In what follows, in the comparison I will make, I will make reference particularly to the Christian religion (as it is presented generally by the works of the Saint Fathers, the most recognized authority in that respect, and accordance to my understanding), because it is still the dominant religion in our Western culture, and it is also, I suppose, more familiar to you.

    It is my impression that you tend to judge the truthfulness of a religion primarily based on the impression made to you by the words and character of a particular teacher or preacher of that religion (SR or the priests you have met until now). But your judgement of their words or character is dependent on your prior frame of mind or prejudices, built by reading or not reading some books, meeting or not meeting some other people, and on some of your affective needs.

    My remark was that books like “The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying” tend to replace the basic religious texts, being treated, to my impression, for example, in Rigpa as some kind of a fundamental bible for disciples. I remember that SR recommended to his students to read it repeatedly in order to discover its profound levels, but in that book it is never strongly recommended (as I remember) to read the original Bardo Thodol or the Pali Cannon. For me that was not a sign of too much humbleness. An autobiographical commentary to the Bardo Thodol is still not Bardo Thodol. It may that other religious texts are read and commented in Rigpa, but, to my impression, they still are not considered to be by the most students their fundamental source of inspiration, at the same level as “The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying” or as the SR’s audio conferences. I have asked myself how many of the Rigpa students have ever read integrally the commented texts referred in those conferences, prior of hearing them or afterwards.

    You also seem to believe that the truthfulness of a person is so obvious, that only by reading his words or meeting her/him would be enough to judge it for sure. Furthermore, you seem to believe that you are immune to any manipulation, that you have sufficient knowledge and experience to detect it. I wish that it would be that simple. The trick is that no person would be manipulated if she/he knew that she/he had been manipulated. It is in the definition of the manipulation that a manipulated person does not think that she/he is manipulated. For example, many people fall prey to some manipulating strategies of marketing from advertisements. One of them is the presentation of an advertisement as a person’s story, telling her/his experience with a product and showing a lot of “convinced” enthusiasm regarding the miracles made in his life by using it. So, as a manipulation strategy, it is known that a personal story is more convincing than presenting the bare facts or religious principles and their interpretation. There are unconscious mechanisms that make us to respond in that way, and even when we know that it may be a strategy, we still can have a hard time to control its automatic activation.

    It may be that “The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying” is a story, but even more of a story is the Old Testament, or the Gospels, for example. They also do not have too much conceptualizations, intellectualizations etc., proof being the fact that they were understood by people with not too much knowledge and education from the time when they were written (and then there was not also too much knowledge of how to manipulate people), and they died, sacrifice themselves for what they understood from them. I wonder if SR would die in order to defend his belief in Buddhas if someone would ask him to choose between his life and his faith, or even to choose between his fortune and his faith.

    I do not say that someone’s level of faith is the single criterion of truthfulness, because there are a lot of fundamentalists able to sacrifice themselves in the name of their faith. But it seemed to me that you may take it as the most important criterion, given your words that the faith with which SR preys and speaks about his believe in Buddhas convinces you also, quieting your doubts. But I am sure that the followers of the Shoko Ashara also believed in the truthfulness of their master and in his sincerity, otherwise they would not have committed the gas attacks, knowing that they are harmful. I think the motives of one’s faith are more important than the level of her/his faith.

    Your comment that first I should met SR and then judge may be somewhat similar with a recommendation to first drink a drug or take a medicine prior of informing myself in what respects its potential dangers, or, respectively, its known side effects. There are a lot of young people curios to experience the state created by psychedelic drugs. But they ignore the easiness with which a person can become dependent on them, maybe only after the first sniff, based on their prior genetic vulnerability. If a master is a doctor who gives medicines, as in the Buddha’s metaphor, then one has to trust that person in order to pay a visit to him, particularly when the fee is rather high. If we are so careful with our physical health, I think we should be also careful with our spiritual health. And there are also doctors who give their treatment totally for free to all students … not only for a few of them, for which others pay. I wonder if you would go to a doctor if you heard that some of her/his patients (only a few) were worse after visiting her/him.

    Furthermore, taking your way of judging Christianity based on your superficial meeting with a priest, I then too should judge the entire Buddhism based on the words of a particular lama (SR’s words in this case) who may not be very inspiring or even truthful. You seemed to revolt yourself against that priest and Christianity because you understood that salvation is only for the people from the church (the unilateral way in which you interpreted his words). But what best method can be to challenge the ego of the audience or your ego (in an abusive manner, in the SR’s style) than the statement of that priest, in the hypothesis that you felt rejected and excluded because you had felt that you are not part of that church? And you also believed that the words of that priest must be the words of God, and that your interpretation of them is correct, without checking before. If you were revolted that other people were in that way rejected, from what I know, also, in Buddhism, people who commit wrongful deeds or have false religious views (not the Buddhist ones) are born in lower realms and not in heaven. It is their choice in this case as much as in the Christian case. The Church is rejecting no one, people reject the Church. In fact, an alternative way to interpret the words of that priest would be that the Church is the community that believes in God, that Jesus is the son of the God, and believe in His sacrifice in order to free them from the power of sin. Everyone who is willing to believe that is chosen. As it is suggested in Gospels, Jesus sacrificed Himself to save all people, especially the sinners. But saved are only those who accept his sacrifice, out of respect for their freedom. They are free to reject it in the same way people are free to reject a treatment. Otherwise, a constrained salvation, against one’s will, is not really a salvation. If a man is in prison and someone says that he is willing to go through a tunnel into that prison, risking his life in that way, in order to free him, his salvation depends on weather he is willing to accept that person and follow it on the path to the way out, and believe in him that is not a tempter, being sent by his parents to free him, and that he has the power to escape them both. But if he is proud and do not want to be salvaged by another person and thinks that he is able to do it herself/himself, that only depends on her/him … No one can constrain her/him and free him against her/his will.

    I noted that it may be an ego thing the revolt against God, because a proud person may not like the idea to be at the mercy of someone else, even God. But what is the problem and why should one be afraid if that person believes that the God is a compassionate and just person, that if that person does nothing wrong she/should not be afraid, and that even if she/he does something wrong, it may be salvaged out of mercy, even if she/he does not deserve it, the only condition being to admit that it was a wrong thing to do and to accept God’s mercy?

    Besides that, the official position, at least in the orthodox Christian churches, it is stated that it is not known how the people outside the church will be judged by God, but it is supposed that there are not doomed, and their judgement will be based on how much they observed the natural law instilled in their heart and mind by God. In other words, the judgement of the Christians or those who heard about Jesus will be more severe than the judgement of the other people.

    As I know it, Middle Eastern religions “do not emphasize” that all good comes from an outside source. As I said it above, it depends also on the will of the person. Even to prey is an act of will, in which you collaborate in obtaining your own salvation.

    Furthermore, in Christian religion too is said that there is a fundamental good nature of every person, as every man is an image of God. It is a kind of given potential to become perfect, like God. But it is the choice and freedom of a person to attain also the perfect likeness with God, through her/his own efforts and will, not only through grace. She/he participates to her/his birth as a divine being, by her/his free will, because it would not be an act of love from the part of God to constrain that being into becoming what she/he does not want to be. In comparison, as it seems to me, the Buddha nature is a given from nowhere and the effort of a person should be simply to recognize that she/is perfect from eternity. It seems that nothing is added, only the illusion of the Samsara (evil) is discarded through personal efforts. But, it may seem for some persons that, as they have the Buddha nature, it is as if they are already perfect in the present and they may be very proud of that, that they are potentially autonomous and their well being is totally dependent on them. But in Buddhism, to my knowledge, also, there is no explanation for the origin of the fall into ignorance of the mind, for the Samsara. It seems to me that in the expression that mind creates Nirvana and Samsara the idea of creation is not properly used, and it is different than the notion of creation from Christianity. If the mind and the Buddha nature exist from eternity, then nothing is created by mind, properly. And if Samsara is an illusion, then, an illusion is nothing real, so nothing is in fact created.

    You were also revolted against the word of the priest who said that “there is true evil out there”. But in Buddhism too, there are recognized evil spirits and purification rituals, or empowerment ceremonials in order to overcome not only the internal, but also the external obstacles (internal and external, relatively speaking). In the lower realms, it is supposed to be demonic beings that may interfere with our realm. Buddha was tempted by Mara. You may say that they are not outside, but inside us, that they are maybe only projections. But, in fact, they are outside of the nature of Buddha, otherwise it would mean that the nature of Buddha has the evilness inside. If you think that there is no evil, then why bother with any spiritual path, if anything done is good from the start, if there is no right view and action, and no wrong view and action, as Buddha said that there is still such a distinction. Otherwise, what would be the point of Karma? Embracing everything I think that it does not mean embracing evilness, or evil doing. In Christianity also it is said that even the enemy should be loved, but not evil actions.

    In fact, in orthodox Christian theology it is recognized that evilness has not the same level of reality as the good. The evilness is simply the absence of good, as the shadow, or darkness, is the absence of light. Therefore, evilness is dependent on good, as a parasite of the good, nurturing from it, a kind of secondary reality, more like an illusion. Evilness has no true creative power, only the ability to mimic or to falsify the reality of the good, the only thing that is real and eternal.

    In Christianity, according to the monks from Eastern Orthodoxy, there is also a method to progress spiritually, i.e. this progress is not purely an issue of mercy. In fact, there are three main steps: purification (not having any more harmful thoughts and feelings), illumination (when one sees the nature of things) and deification (when one becomes god, i.e. united with God, through the power of His uncreated grace). But no matter how virtuous a monk becomes, he recognizes that becoming a god (saint) is an act of mercy, because one does not totally deserves it after all and because a creature is not above her/his creator God.

    I wonder also: if SR’s book is sincere and there are presented in it his fundamental beliefs, what else would add a personal encounter with him for me, especially in the condition that there is now hope to know his private or intimate life? The most I could obtain would be a short meeting with a few exchanged words. Is there a hope that I may be convinced by a kind of magical power or charisma? But, in my opinion, someone’s charisma or magical powers are not a way to guide oneself in the spiritual path. Hitler had also charisma.

    Speaking of truthfulness and manipulation in SR’s book, reading quite a lot from the Christian religious tradition, I could say that his idea that devotion to a guru and to Jesus is the same process, betrays his little knowledge about the Christian religion. And it is a proof of stated ignorance and even deception of his (former) Christian students. You said that I had judged him before I met him. But he judged Christianity before he really got to know it (at least at the same level as he knows Buddhism) or before meeting Jesus as a person, as if he would be some higher authority able to judge that (because he cites no one stating his opinion). It would have been more humble and truthful to keep silence before emitting such a sweeping opinion. Only someone who thinks he has arrived to the highest level of the spiritual realization may be entitled to pretend that there is no difference in devoting to him or to Jesus. But even Buddha, in his supposed omniscience, said nothing about Jesus. Christians may interpret his statement as an offence, belittling Jesus. Christians may be offended also that in the book is suggested that only Tibetan Buddhism has a way or the best way to help dying people, when it is a generally known fact that there are Christian prayers and rituals for dying people, and spiritual assistance is given in those moments. The fact that Christian spirituality has eroded (being too formal) in the West does not say anything about its truthfulness, as the fact that Buddhism has eroded in Orient (being also formal there, with a lot of former Buddhist embracing other religions) says nothing about his truthfulness. A religion is more alive when encounters hardships or is developed in a new culture.

    By the way, mixing religions, as Christianity and Buddhism as if they are all about the same message, as it happens in the SR’s book, is also a New Age characteristic …

    As regards the conceptualizations from the “The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying“ Bardo is a concept, nature of mind is a concept, energy is a concept, karma is a concept, rebirth is a concept etc. Psychologically speaking, without a conceptual mind and conceptualizations he would not be able to write a word in his book.

    I am not saying that there is nothing beyond the conceptual mind, or reason. But discarding them prematurely in order to arrive to a higher state may be counterproductive, because they are part of the staircase that leads to the sky. You need to step on the steps of the concept and reason in order to surpass them, not to refuse them from the start. Not stepping on them or throwing away their staircase means that one believes that in that way she/he is already arrived to the sky, when she/he is still on the earth (victim of the censorial and affective illusions). I have read an interview with SR who said a similar thing, accepting the usefulness of the conceptual mind in order to surpass it. Fools also give up the reason and conceptual mind, but they are not wise because of that. In fact, reason is a way to ignore your personal ego, to make abstraction of your personal desires. It is a way of thinking in general, not exclusively from a strictly particular perspective. A rational person subjects herself/himself to the same criteria of assessment that are used by her/him in order to assess other persons. A rational person tries to ignore her/his feelings and personal temporary interests and act in accordance with general and long-term interests.

    I admit that choosing a religion is not fully based on a rational choice. But rationality should play a part, not letting affectivity and imagination going astray. It is like a bird that has to have two wings in order to fly. Our mind can play so many tricks too us, as in the case of so many schizophrenics or drug intoxicated, that I think only personal experience should be not enough in order to make important spiritual choices. Furthermore, it is a known fact that hallucinations may occur now and then in the life of otherwise perfectly mentally stable people. In fact, reason asks only to check personal experiences with the personal experiences of others, both similar and dissimilar with the personal one. Rationality is not about the current level of knowledge of a culture (the Western one in our case) and what it recognizes or not, but a method to obtain knowledge and to check the one obtained through other means, as Buddha said that everything should be checked based on experience and reasoning, and not to believe in something on account on of some kind of authority or tradition. I have noted the several Buddhist masters praise the Tibetan Buddhism for how similar is with the most recent results of the science (from quantum physics, neuroscience and psychology etc.). But the same science is rejected when it is no more convenient to gain prestige in the eyes of the Westerners, and some of its parts that are not in sink with the same science (as it is the cosmology case, for example) are not mentioned. Rationality and science are not automatically linked with calculations and money, as you seem to believe. There is also imagination and intuition in science, because without them there would be no ideas to be checked against the reality. Great scientists recognize that their theories were born after they had moments of so called inspiration, i.e. imaginative exploration. But there is a kind of educated, worked and controlled inspiration, not the one coming from the day dreaming in which unfulfilled desires are manifested in a more or less covered manner.
    Recognizing the ghosts, for example, or other paranormal phenomena or not is not directly linked with the limits of rationality, but with the limits of the present means of investigation. The same was true when the electromagnetic field was only a hypothesis and predominantly a matter of belief.
    The limits of the rationality are recognized by scientists (there are even theorems proving that, as Gödel’s incompleteness theorems are), but that does not mean that rationality is to be discarded contextually, based on how convenient the results of the reasoning processes are for a person, for her/his particular present needs.

    My impression reading some sutras from Pali Cannon was that they were extremely analytic and logical, presenting all the possible alternatives and disputing every one of them based on their logical consequences, and refuting them in a reductio ad absurdum manner. Furthermore, to my knowledge, a Buddhist monk is supposed to be able to have polemics (logical debates) to his teacher or fellow disciples in order to receive a higher rank.

    There is another misconception, the one about mind and heart in Christianity. You generalize from some deviations or branches of the Christianity in the Western society to the entire Christianity. If you had read the Bible or the Saint Fathers, you would have seen there is no place in which mind is totally separated from heart. Jesus said, for example, that “out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander”. Also, the purpose of the practice of the monks from the Eastern Orthodoxy when saying incessantly the Jesus prayer (Jesus, Son of the God, have mercy on me, the sinner!) was to bring the rational mind into the heart, reuniting them, as it was originally. Heart in Orthodox Christianity means the center of a being, the part of his being with which is in connection with God. Also, Christianity is all about devotion, so, by your criterion, it should believe in the Mind + Heart idea, also. But if devotion is so important in the Tibetan Buddhism, more important than you seem to believe it is in Christianity, why Tibetan Buddhism is praised to be a “science of mind”, resulting from its study (i.e. observation, and experience, as in every science), as you said. Study means something rational, objective. Furthermore, devotion means to me to base your progress and knowledge on exterior, on the outside forces of a guru, of a Buddha, on their mercy (named it compassion), because we do not properly deserve their help.

    Finally, it seems to me that it is hard to think and to speak of mind or love as separated of a person or, respectively, of the relation between persons. For example, you said that mind is “the creator”, personifying the mind. Mind is, for me at least, particularly about will (not knowledge or affect, because it transcends them both), and love about a relationship between free wills. But will is what separates a person from a material thing. Without a link with a person, mind or love can be treated as or linked with, as it seems to be the tendency, some kind of unknown energies that through the science of mind of the Tibetan Buddhism could be accessed, transmitted, controlled and manipulated. It may be viewed as a purely technical issue. Once one learns and masters the technique, she/he achieves a higher status, with the risk of becoming proud of herself/himself and her/his acquired self-sufficiency, because she/he may think ultimately that only through her/his merit conquered that status. Devotion to the master may be viewed as a payment or merit in order to gain his teachings of the technique. Imaginary giving up to the accumulated merits may be only a subterfuge to fight with this potential and hidden risk of the spiritual pride.

    I did not imply that your dreams about SR were inspired by angels or fairytales. My impression from your words was that you think that they were inspired by him or that they have a spiritual relevance for you, no matter if they are projections or not. And, after all, what difference is between angels and Buddhist deities? You may say that deities are personifications, or symbols of some aspects of the Absolute, but the same was thought to be by the Greek antique philosophers about their deities. Why the need to symbolize those aspects as persons and not as concepts of aspects, if they are only symbols and nothing more? Why to reject the notion of God as a person or creator, and, in the same time, symbolize impersonal and abstract attributes as persons? I heard or read the SR’s words who said that in Tibetan Buddhism the nature of God is not rejected, only the concept of God. For me it was hard to understand that distinction, and especially why he thinks that Tibetan Buddhism is so special in that respect. On the one hand, Buddha spoke explicitly against a God as creator, and the belief in any God was considered to hinder the spiritual progress, as a false view. On the other hand, in the apophatic Christianity theology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophatic_theology), it is recognized that God cannot be defined in any way, that what is spoken about Him in a cataphatic manner, using concepts, have only a relative value, as a way in which people are able at some particular time to perceive Him and define Him in relationship with the man (Creator, Judge, Savior). In Christianity, God is primarily “Who He is”, as it is told in the Old Testament, and as the Creator.

    You had an email connected to your comments which we as moderators can see. I tried to send you a private mail but it was returned as being non existent. Could you contact us at info@dialogueireland.org

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  409. Tell that to all those who have been ruthlessly exploited and abused! Tell those who have been sexually abused, violated and are being systematically humiliated that it is done from a place of compassion.

    The main purpose of this blog is to inform, warn and if possible disclose the various types of abuse committed by Sogyal, not to try to turn this space into a PR exercise for that sociopathic grotesque little shit.
    There has been and still is so much wrong with him, the list is here to stay, just learn to read it!

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  410. Marta-Micaela, The Onion is a farcical newspaper. It makes up funny stories which are not true, for humor. The Onion newspaper was started in my hometown of Madison, WI. Es ist keine echte Zeitung, sondern eine komödiantische Veröffentlichung.

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  411. There HASN’t been any problem!

    SR has compassion, unlike you.

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  412. Newsflash

    Sogyal bans food from tsok offerings in case any potentially obese people attend!

    (Seriously B, its obvious that alcohol was banned because there had been problems, not because they might happen-why not just ban all people in case any negative karma occurs?) No problems with alcohol at Rigpa? Yeah sure-and no problems with spiritual ego in dharma centres eh?

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  413. I would NEVER try and upstage you Bella. So no booze because ‘former alcoholics’ might turn up. What next: cover up women in burkas in case any former heterosexuals turn up??

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  414. I haven’t been faced with a problem of alcohol in Rigpa.

    Alcohol was removed because there might be former alcoholics who could be tempted.

    SR has never asked to drink, supported drinking – and drinking is a phenomena I’ve never seen practiced in Rigpa. If there are former alcoholics in the audience, it’s another matter.

    Rigpa is not a cause for anybody’s drinking, except for Drolma. I’ve only met one former alcoholic who didn’t drink in Rigpa – and I believe he had stopped it alltogether.

    Are you playing stupid again?

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  415. ER Marte. thats from the Onion, a famous satirical site in the US.

    Trungpa would regularly teach while drunk-to great effect.

    “When my teacher drinks alcohol, it is transcendental wisdom nectar. When I drink alcohol, it opens the gates to the animal realm”

    Alcohol is no demon-self hatred and addictive behavior are the cause of suffering in this instance

    Bella, “there has never been a problem at Rigpa with alcohol but it was necessary to ban its use during tsok to protect alcoholics from themselves”???You dont make sense woman

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  416. No, saulaan? Then have a look at the violent and drunken Dalai Lama!

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/dalai-lama-decks-photographer-in-disco-melee,1093/

    Until now every one of you avoided any comment about this story.
    Also a elephant in the room.

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  417. Ah! the elephant in the room………………

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  418. I’ve never seen anyone drink/drunk at a Buddhist function.

    S Puppet, you said something above about me telling people to “keep quiet” about abuse or something to that effect; what I’ve actually said, repeatedly, is to go to the authorities.

    I am not “attacking” Mary Finnigan. I am pointing out various elements in her writing, both formal and casual, which are at odds with one another and strike me–and certainly, therefore, others–as hypocritical (whether purposely or accidentally).

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  419. ER you didnt address the question bella. What about the contradiiction?

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  420. Alcoholics whom seek help from Buddhism do not show in retreats drunk.

    I have never seen a person, alcoholic or not, drunk in any Rigpa retreat. There is no contradiction.

    Buddhism doesn’t support being drunk. I guess you already knew that.

    I have met that one man who told me he had been alcoholic in the past (I guess they always call themselves alcoholic, weather they have stopped or not) on one retreat 10 years ago. I’m sorry I had almost forgotten about him! He was such a nice man and also intelligent. Had that brain storm stopped through meditation.

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  421. Hey!
    bellaB, on April 5, 2012 at 2:42 pm said:

    “I have seen the same people all through the decade I’ve been there. I know people who have been there for 20-30 years. Besides you, I have never seen anyone drunk or heard anybody becoming drunk. Alcohol is not part of the Rigpa scene,”

    But then……………….

    bellaB, on April 9, 2012 at 6:46 am said:

    “SR removed alcohol from the Tsoks in order to protect alcoholics”

    Ur isnt there a slight contradiction here? Is this what Buddhists mean by the unity of the two levels of truth; the one on April 5th, and the other April 9th?

    Come on bella, if there are no drunks in Rigpa, what would be the point of banning it? Do you have truth to fit every occasion?

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  422. It’s a fair comment that religion has helped people to endure suffering and no-one could dispute that belief has enabled the accomplishment of things that would have been impossible or even unthinkable in its absence.

    The overwhelming power of focused, single-minded belief, and self-sacrificing devotion to a common goal, cultivated over a prolonged period, helped the Wermacht operate industrialised genocide, slaughter their way across Europe and subsequently endure the suffering and disintegration of all they had built and held dear.

    Those other phenomena more commonly thought of as religion expand the sum total of atrocities considerably.

    The point here is that these qualities are not automatically good or beneficial to humanity per se. Far from it. For every undoubted plus there are many more minuses.

    The more intense and effective (in its own terms) belief is, the more dangerous it becomes and the more it needs a tightly regulated and pervasive imposition of safeguards in terms of morality and humanity.

    Whatever their professed intentions, religions, including Buddhism in all its forms, always try to prevent this because, they derive their authority and very existence from belief and being hierarchical structures, by definition they contain relationships where an imbalance of power creates the ideal conditions for abuse of all kinds. This is why they always protect themselves by aligning with social, political, or even military elites in a mutually beneficial way. Anyone who thinks Buddhism has ever excluded itself from this, needs to read their Asian history.

    Whether or not Buddhist philosophy and techniques actually do result in the promised goals has to be evaluated by results and in that respect most of the more grandiose promises are obviously total nonsense. Even the seemingly more attainable results such as happiness, peace of mind, mental clarity, and compassion are not any more in evidence in Buddhist practitioners than the rest of us and curiously, a cross-section of revered Buddhist teachers seems to throw up a wide spectrum of undesirable qualities that ought to be absent if Buddhist practice was effective, even by its own terms of reference.

    The Dalai Lama may indeed be fascinating for a few neurologists; we’re all on the look out for novelty after all. But the knowledge that his continuing endorsement of Sogyal makes him complicit in the abuse of women might dampen their enthusiasm if their own daughters had been involved.

    What exactly are the benefits of all his daily hours of meditation if they don’t even give him the clarity of mind or moral honesty to understand something as simple as that and what, other than smug hypocrisy are all his teachings on compassion if he remains indifferent to suffering in his own sphere that he could and should address?

    Basically: single-minded belief without the moral courage for honest analysis.

    Sogyal and the Dalai Lama….two among many contemporary, popular, shining examples of the flowering of 2,500 years of Buddhist thought and practice.

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  423. A relevant and interesting posting.
    Thanks

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  424. Part 2

    5). Pseudo-scientific mystification. The instigators of destructive cults seek to overwhelm their adherents emotionally and intellectually by pretending that progressive initiation into their own superior or superhuman knowledge (coupled with total belief in its authenticity and unconditional deference to the authority of its higher initiates) will defeat a negative or adversarial force of impurity and absolute evil, and lead to future, exclusive redemption in some form of secure Utopian existence. By making total belief a prerequisite of redemption, adherents are drawn into a closed-logic trap (i.e. failure to achieve redemption is solely the fault of the individual who didn’t believe totally). Cultic pseudo-science is always essentially the same hypnotic hocus-pocus, but it can be peddled in an infinite variety of forms and combinations (‘spiritual’, ‘medical’, ‘philosophical’, ‘cosmological’,‘extraterrestrial’,‘political’,‘racial’, ‘mathematical’,‘economic’, ‘New-Age,’ etc. etc.), often with impressive, made-up, technical-sounding names. It is tailored to fit the spirit of the times and to attract a broad range of persons, but especially those open to an exclusive offer of salvation (i.e. the sick, the dissatisfied, the bereaved, the vanquished, the disillusioned, the oppressed, the lonely, the insecure, the aimless, etc. etc.). However, at a moment of vulnerability, anyone (no matter what their age, sex, nationality, state of mental/physical health, level of education, etc.) can need to believe in cultic pseudo-science. Typically, obedient adherents are granted ego-inflating names, and/or ranks, and/or titles, whilst non-initiates are referred to using derogatory terms. Although initiation can at first appear to be reasonable and benefits achievable, cultic pseudo-science gradually becomes evermore costly and mystifying. Ultimately, it is completely incomprehensible and its claimed benefits are never quantifiable. The self-righteous euphoria and relentless enthusiasm of cult proselytizers can be highly infectious and deeply misleading. They are invariably convinced that their own salvation also depends on saving others.

    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    * dualistic adjective describing the theological/philosophical concept first recorded in the 6th. century BC in the ‘Zend-Avesta’ (the founding text of ‘Zoroastrianism’, a traditional ritual belief system named after the Iranian/Afghan Prophet, Zoroaster, or Zarathustra), that the forces of good and evil are equally balanced in the universe.

    6). Monopoly of information. The leaders of destructive cults seek to control all information entering not only their adherents’ minds, but also that entering the minds of casual observers. This is achieved by constantly denigrating all external sources of information whilst constantly repeating the group’s reality-inverting key words and images, and/or by the physical isolation of adherents. Cults leaders systematically categorize, condemn and exclude as unenlightened,negative, impure and absolutely evil all free-thinking individuals and any quantifiable evidence challenging the authenticity of their imaginary scenarios of control. In this way, the minds of cult adherents can become converted to accept only what their leadership arbitrarily sanctions as enlightened, positive, pure and absolutely righteous. Consequently, adherents habitually communicate amongst themselves using their group’s reality-inverting jargon, and they find it difficult, if not impossible, to communicate with negative persons outside of their group whom they falsely believe to be not only doomed, but also a threat to redemption.

    7). False justification. In destructive cults, a core-group of adherents can be gradually dissociated from external reality and reformed into deployable agents, and/or de facto slaves, and/or expendable combatants, etc, furthering the hidden criminal objectives of their leaders, completely dependent on a collective paranoid delusion of absolute moral and intellectual supremacy fundamental to the maintenance of their individual self-esteem and related psychological function. It becomes impossible for such fanatics to empathise with non-adherents. Their minds are programmed to see the manipulation, and/or cheating, and/or dispossession, and/or destruction, of inferior outsiders (particularly, those who challenge their group’s controlling scenario) as perfectly justifiable.

    8). Structural mystification. The instigators of destructive cults can continue to organize the creation, and/or dissolution, and/or subversion, of further (apparently independent) corporate structures pursuing lawful, and/or unlawful, activities in order to prevent, and/or divert, investigation and isolate themselves from liability. In this way, some cults survive all low-level challenges and spread like cancers destroying the lives of countless individuals in the process. At the same time, their leaders acquire absolute control over capital sums which place them alongside the most notorious racketeers in history. They operate behind ever-expanding, and changing, fronts of ‘privately-controlled, limited-liability, commercial companies’, and/or ‘non-profit-making associations’, etc. etc. Other than ‘religious/philosophical’ and ‘political’ movements and ‘secret societies’, typical reality-inverting disguises for cultic crime are:‘charity/philanthropy’; ’fund-raising’; ‘lobbying’ on topical issues (‘freedom’, ‘ethics’, ‘environment’, ‘human rights’, ‘women’s rights’, ‘child protection’, ‘law enforcement’, ‘social justice’, etc.); ‘publishing and media’; ‘education’; ‘academia’; ‘celebrity’; ‘patriotism’; ‘information technology’; ‘public relations’; ‘advertising’; ‘medicine’; ‘alternative medicine’; ‘nutrition’; ‘rehabilitation’; ‘manufacturing’; ‘retailing’; ‘direct marketing’; ‘multilevel marketing’; ‘network marketing’; ‘regulation’; ‘personal development’; ‘self-betterment’; ‘positive thinking’; ‘self-motivation’; ‘leadership training’; ‘life coaching’; ‘research and development’; ‘investment’; ‘real estate’; ‘sponsorship’; ‘bereavement/trauma counselling’; ‘addiction counselling’; ‘legal counselling’; ‘cult exit-counselling’; ’financial consulting’; ‘management consulting’; ‘clubs’; etc. etc.

    9). Chronic psychological deterioration symptoms. The long-term core-adherents of destructive cults are psychotic (i.e. suffering from psychosis, a severe mental derangement, especially when resulting in delusions and loss of contact with external reality). Core-adherents who manage to break with their group and confront the ego-destroying reality that they’ve been systematically deceived and exploited, are invariably destitute and dissociated from all their previous social contacts. For many years afterwards, recovering former core-adherents can suffer one, or more, of the following psychological problems (which are also generally indicative of the victims of abuse): depression; overwhelming feelings (guilt, grief, shame, fear, anger, embarrassment, etc.); dependency/inability to make decisions; retarded psychological/intellectual development; suicidal thoughts; panic/anxiety attacks; extreme identity confusion; Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder; insomnia/nightmares; eating disorders; psychosomatic illness (asthma, skin disorders, headaches, fatigue, etc.); sexual problems/fear of forming intimate relationships; inability to trust; etc. etc.

    10). Repression of all dissent. The leaders of the most-dangerous destructive cults are megalomaniacal psychopaths (i.e. suffering from a chronic mental disorder, especially when resulting in paranoid delusions of grandeur and self-righteousness, and the compulsion to pursue grandiose objectives). The unconditional deference of their deluded adherents only serves to confirm, and magnify, the leaders’ own delusions. This type of destructive cult leader maintains an absolute monopoly of information whilst perpetrating, and/or directing, evermore heinous crimes. They sustain their activities by the imposition of arbitrary codes (secrecy, justice, punishment, etc.) within their groups, and by the use of humiliation, and/or intimidation, and/or calumny, and/or malicious prosecution (where they pose as victims), and/or sophism, and/or the infiltration of traditional culture, and/or corruption, and/or intelligence gathering and blackmail, and/or extortion, and/or physical isolation, and/or violence, and/or assassination, etc. etc., to repress any internal or external dissent.

    Copyright David Brear 2006-09-18

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  425. Sounds like the US Republican party.

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  426. For those of you who haven’t already disappeared up your own rhetoric, here’s some very interesting and extremely relevant material written by David Brears and published by FECRIS :
    THE UNIVERSAL IDENTIFYING CHARACTERISTICS OF A CULT

    Part 1
    Apart from its use in the sense of ‘a popular fashion especially followed by a specific section of society’’ or ‘a person or thing popularised in this way’, the traditional definition of the English noun, cult (Latin cultus worship), has been ‘a system of religious worship (Latin religiosus obligation, bondage) especially as expressed in ritual’, or ‘devotion or homage to a person or thing’. However, the word is now also used as shorthand for what is more accurately described as a destructive or criminogenic* cult. This phenomenon can be briefly defined as: any self-perpetuating, esoteric** ritual belief system established or perverted for the clandestine purpose of human exploitation.

    Such groups are identified by the following, essential characteristics:

    1). Deception. Destructive cults are presented externally as traditional associations. These can be arbitrarily defined by their instigators as almost any banalgroup (‘religious’, ‘cultural’, ‘political’, ‘commercial’, etc. etc.). However, internally, they are always totalitarian (i.e. they are centrally-controlled and require of their adherents an absolute subservience to the group and its patriarchal, and/or matriarchal, leadership above all other persons). By their very nature, destructive cults never present themselves in their true colours. Consequently, no one ever becomes involved with one as a result of their fully-informed consent.

    2). Self-appointed sovereign leadership. Destructive cults are instigated and ruled by psychologically dominant individuals, and/or bodies of psychologically dominant individuals, often with impressive, made-up names, and/or ranks, and/or titles. They steadfastly pretend moral and intellectual authority whilst pursuing various, hidden, criminal objectives (fraudulent, and/or sexual, and/or violent, etc.). The leaders of destructive cults hold themselves accountable to no one.

    3). Manipulation. Destructive cults employ coordinated techniques of social and psychological persuasion (variously described as: ‘mental manipulation’, ‘coercive behaviour modification’, ‘group pressure’, ‘thought reform’, ‘ego destruction’, ‘mind control’, ‘brainwashing’, etc.). These are designed to fulfil the hidden criminal objectives of the leaders by provoking in the adherents an infantile total dependence on the group, to the detriment of themselves and of their existing family, and/or other, relationships. Destructive cults manipulate their adherents’ existing beliefs and instinctual desires, creating the illusion that they are exercising free will. In this way, adherents can also be surreptitiously coerced into following potentially harmful, physical procedures (sleep deprivation, protein restriction, repetitive chanting/moving, etc. etc.) which are similarly designed to facilitate the shutting down of an individual’s critical and evaluative faculties without his/her fully-informed consent.

    * criminogenic adjective (1) crime-producing. (2) produced by crime.

    ** esoteric adjective (1) intelligible only to those with a special knowledge. (2) (of a belief etc.) intended only for the initiated.

    4). Radical changes of personality and behaviour. Destructive cults can be of any size, duration and level of criminality. They comprise groups, and/or sub-groups, of previously diverse individuals bonded by their unconscious acceptance of the self-gratifying, but wholly imaginary, scenario that they alone represent a positive or protective force of purity and absolute righteousness derived from their leadership’s exclusive access to a superior or superhuman knowledge, and that they alone oppose a negative or adversarial force of impurity and absolute evil. Whilst this two-dimensional, or dualistic*, narrative remains the adherents’ model of reality, they are, in effect, constrained to modify their individual personalities and behaviour accordingly.

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  427. I guess you don’t know Anonymous a lot about alcoholism: it’s both mental and physical addiction. One drop can cause a collapse in a person who is trying to get rid of it.

    Trying to practice tantrism with a substance when you are addicted to it doesn’t work. One can try to practice on a mental level (like younger monks practice practices involving sex), but not to risk the physical addiction.

    Like giving heroin to someone trying to get rid of it.

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  428. Which brings me back to my favorite topic– the early introduction of the vajrayana in our Dharma centers. When that is done, then there is no choice but to remove the alcohol for the sake of alcoholics who are not properly prepared for vajrayana practice.

    DI will say that we are off topic, but I still maintain that the early practice of vajrayana, so rampant in our Dharma centers, is a big contributor to abuse.

    P.S. Bella, I was never an alcoholic. Alcohol was a small part of my journey– smoking cigarettes was bigger.

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  429. (13) Not relying properly on the substances that bond us closely to tantric practice (dam-rdzas)

    The practice of anuttarayoga tantra includes participating in periodic offering ceremonies known as tsog pujas. They involve tasting specially consecrated alcohol and meat. These substances symbolize the aggregates, bodily elements and, in Kalachakra, the energy-winds – ordinarily disturbing factors that have a nature of being able to confer deep awareness when dissociated from confusion and used for the path. The root downfall is to consider such substances nauseating, to refuse them on the grounds of being a teetotaler or a vegetarian, or alternatively, to take them in large quantities with gusto and attachment.

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  430. “SR said that the honey moon period lasts for 5 years” Actually, in my experience it lasts much longer and I wonder why he would say such a thing=perhaps to convince the naive of their lack of naivety

    “SR removed alcohol from the Tsoks in order to protect alcoholics”
    If you knew your tantric vows you would know that this is actually a serious infringement of the precepts

    Drolma has not stated the extent of her abuse so stop pigeon holing her

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  431. Those external guru and salvation fantasies are your own. I am mostly working and studying – and do not practice, nor think about Buddhism much at all.

    I have had some deep experiences on retreats. That is all.

    SR said that the honey moon period lasts for 5 years. Well, somebody was ‘kind’ enough to destroy my honey moon period at the beginning of my 2nd year. So I have had unhoneymoon period for 8-9 years.

    If I see slanderous talk here that I have a completely different experience about, I will tell it. That is to bring into the discussion the other side.

    SR removed alcohol from the Tsoks in order to protect alcoholics, if there were any. I haven’t heard about such an act in any other group. It may look like a small act to people who are not alcoholics, but it means a great deal to alcoholics.

    In the early days I met on a retreat a man who said he could finally through the meditation stop the endless circle of thoughts he had been fighting against through alcohol. So SR or Buddhism has helped him.

    Then there is Drolma who come to say she believes the abuse because she begun drinking when she met SR. It might be possible (but I doubt it). I just think the fault is not SR’s but lies in the karma or something. Extensive karma purification began, but she turned it so that she interprets it as something that SR has caused.

    Maybe SR hit her nerve a few times. The point was probably
    a) not directed at her
    b) if it was directed at her, something in what he said hit the childhood or some other karmicly painful point. She as a therapist makes her own interpretations that I believe her own colleges wouldn’t agree. At least I wouldn’t.

    Isn’t it ALWAYS so that alcoholics do not start healing before they admit their own responsibility for their drinking…?! I’m sorry I’m again a bit strict but I think this needs to be said.

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  432. Dont you get it Bella, I am saying Sogyal may welll have some qualities but that doesnt mean he is incapable of abuse? Cant you see the that?

    Or is it just that, having projected saviour onto him after one period of abuse in your life, you are completely incapable/unwilling to accept that he too could also be capable of inflicting the terrible harm you suffered on other women?

    I think you have invested far too much in the external guru, who appears to be some sort of external form of salvation for you. Remember “The guru is an ordinary man who has accomplished extraordinary things” The form of guru worship you exhibit is so naive it is quite sickening, indeed it is in part the reason that abuse occurs in the first place. Who could resist a harem of adoring young women who have suspended all judgement (or even male benfactors?) Anyone with even a trace of ego would clearly take full advantage

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  433. Yeah obviously, thats why I alluded to the possibility of his having qualities..Duuuuuuuuh!

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  434. S Puppet, I thought about your comments that you are extremely black and white. SR is all evil, in your eyes. If anyone says one good thing about him, it can’t possibly be true. I don’t have any need to invent stories.

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  435. “Do you think that if he didn’t have good qualities, people would be his students?”

    Does everything have to be so black and white for you bella? Can you possibly imagine that someone can either posess or convey qualities while at the same time having a dark side> Or do all the bad people in your world wear dark cloaks, have big black moustaches and top hats? Must someone have horns and a tail befor you can possibly conceive of their character.?

    Think ‘Hitler loved his dogs’ ‘Murderers love their children’ is that not possible?

    Think ‘Mother Theresa was a tyrant’ ‘A pope ignored the holocaust’ Are you waking up yet?

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  436. If you look on the Rigpa website, you will see that SR is going to be very busy teaching over the next half year. I was thinking about that and wondering about it and then I thought, of course, when you sit in a teaching, you feel a lot of love and compassion coming from the lama, you often feel strong devotion. That whitewashes a lot of the skepticism. At least that has been my experience.

    I remember an interview I had once with a lama like this. It was during a very dark time in my life and I needed help with redirecting my practice etc. So I had an interview, seeking Rinpoche’s help. Afterwards, I felt a very strong rush of devotion and gratitude towards Rinpoche– I remember telling a friend immediately after, “I don’t know why I didn’t go to him earlier for help. It was soooo helpful.”

    It took me many more months of dark stumbling to come to the realization that he never answered any of my questions; it just felt good to be with him, as usual. So it might be sort of like that at Rigpa, SR giving out the whitewash of devotion, instead of real answers.

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  437. And Helen, I feel very strongly, as a Buddhist, that we not throw out the baby with the bath water in this discussion. I have very strong opinions, which I will only mention briefly here in fear of being off topic, about the value of religion in people’s lives. Examples of how religion has given people courage, hope and calmness of mind in the most extreme and dire of circumstances abound in history– quick examples are the Tibetans in Chinese prisons or African Americans during their dark periods of slavery and even up to the current time. These stories are inspiring.

    I am also quite convinced, based on my own experiences, that Buddhist practices can be very helpful for women who must face the difficult journey of healing from abuse. It is only one small part of Buddhism, the vajrayana, which grants lamas the power that they can then use to abuse students. The vast cannon remaining is all about students being skeptical and discerning. In this cannon, there are many instructions about viewing the teacher from different angles before committing to him/her, before ever embarking on the vajrayana approach where submission to authority is involved.

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  438. Helen, if you are objectively interested in the subject of where Buddhism and science converge in a spirit of respect, you might want to view some of the conferences being held between HH Dalai Lama and top scientists. This is not “soft science” but discussions between Buddhists and leading. respected scientists in the fields of neuroscience, physics and psychology. These scientists seem to think that Buddhists, who have been contemplating and debating and analyzing the world of mind and emotions for 2500 years, have something to offer other than abuse.

    Heres one link to a conference: http://www.dalailama.com/webcasts/post/155-mind-and-life-xxii—contemplative-science

    I repeat: Buddhism and abuse are not compatible.

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  439. Do you think that if he didn’t have good qualities, people would be his students? If I have spent about 1 year in his presence during the past decade, I may have seen a bit more than you. At least it seems that way. All you have is internet gossips… from MF.

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  440. Thank you for that wonderful appraisal of Sogyals good qualities-you are clearly deeply involved with the Rigpa publicty machine, Small communities, little direct contact with Sogyal and the Rigpa juggernaut
    )
    “SR has said about the accusations publicly in Rigpa. He has said that he is not harming anybody”
    What a relief to realise that all the allegations are lies and all the so-called victims are liars and fantasists. Thank you for putting the record straight. By the way, did you know, the Holocaust never happened. I know this because the Nazis denied it..

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  441. SR has said about the accusations publicly in Rigpa. He has said that he is not harming anybody..

    With the three year retreatants or in some other retreat where I wasn’t that subject was talked extensively.

    You said you were there 10 years ago. How could you know?

    Also lamas do practice this:

    “Give all victory and gain to others,
    Take all defeat and loss upon yourself”

    If those lamas didn’t talk about the suicide just before the empowerments, it could be that they were shocked about it – and in the Tibetan tradition those people try to create auspicious conditions, especially during the empowerments – and of course it was not auspicious at all. Maybe they wanted the atmosphere not to change completely. I do not know. Sometimes those people can be as we would call them superstitious, even though I hardly believe lamas are like that.

    SR talks often about suffering, gives live examples – also from the retreats. Constantly. He has also talked about depression that he felt when he was young and new in the West. He uses real life examples, also from the present day (and from people he knows in Rigpa) and teaches from there. He does combine Buddhist teachings practically to the real suffering of the world. I guess because he has lived and seen a lot, the students can also relate to what he is teaching.

    I just think Drolma, that you didn’t really pay attention to what SR said while you were there.

    He is very westernized and is really talking sometimes too openly about things. Also in Bhutan and when he is teaching in the East, he doesn’t change his style, even though that would be the general expectation.

    Once there was an event in Ireland (I heard) where a speaker fell down on someone’s head during the teachings. What a fuss he had made taking care of that person. Luckily the person wasn’t seriously harmed and she was given a protection scarf.

    He takes care of people, but somehow – or for some reason you didn’t notice that side of him at all?

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  442. That story happened a long time ago, but I doubt that things have changed. It’s a corporation. What I saw of the inner workings of that monastery was very distasteful to me; it was dishonest and secretive and all about power. And Bella, you cannot tell me that the inner workings of Rigpa are any different.

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  443. The monastery was KTD, HH Karmapa’s North American seat. And I must qualify that not all the members of the administration were concerned with public image, I certainly don’t want to be naming names, people I care about. I did have a conversation with the wife of the president about how such things would never happen in Tibet. She was open and caring as always (mother of Ponlop Rinpoche). The president did come to Mahakala puja that evening and did talk to me and the other woman who was there (only three that day!) about how surprised he was because “she seemed so normal.” And then at Chenrezig puja, I think there was only a couple of people.

    But not a word from either of the two rinpoches and no follow-up, no coming together as a community and talking about it and how people might be feeling. I personally didn’t know the woman but still felt very emotional that it had happened. It was odd because after 9/11, the pujas were packed and the sangha did come together, but I guess this was too problematic.

    I was liaiison for the affiliate centers at the time and I emailed the centers about the event, but it continued to be hush hush. I think there was general disapproval over my mass emailing (by then, I was generally disapproved of.)

    I am writing of this not to vere off topic, but because it is a demonstration of the cultural divide, where it seems as if the habit is not to speak of things that are difficult. There isn’t really a culture in Tibetan monastic communities to handle difficult issues– and there’s so little transparency. So thus we have SR’s silence– and the silence of the TB community generally.

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  444. intellectual dishonesty…

    yes. Say that to Mary and Victoria Barlow.

    I have not enough proof of any abuse, sorry. So I will not join your condemnation gang.

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  445. If that suicide event had occurred in Rigpa, SR wouldn’t have wiped away the suicide. He would have spoken about it and felt sad about it. I think he would have spoken about it during many days, maybe even shown it as an example in his teachings for many days or in many retreats.

    You have a completely false view about Rigpa, Drolma. SR has heart, but you seem to not know it.

    I said those things about you Drolma, because all you know are the internet gossip and you have expressed these 2 things that you have suffered as a proof of the sexual abuse SR has been accused of. I’d like you to question your own objectivity here. Especially if you are a shrink… (?)

    SR was ‘nasty’ toward the Dean in a jokingly fashion. If you don’t like joking, then stay away from the Tibetans.

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  446. Mis-direction is a common tactic, often used in situations where attention needs to be directed away from one thing in order to achieve another. ( In itself the technique is neutral, what makes it creative or destructive is the aim.) There’s a great deal of this here and it isn’t particularly constructive..

    On a fairly innocuous level, many commentators mis-direct, perhaps for a mixture of reasons: maybe even unconsciously when they can’t refute something, the direction of the discussion isn’t to their liking or not within their experience. For example: a direct observation that Buddhism is, like all religions, based on a lie about the transcendence of suffering old age and death, prompts the well-worn mis-direction: ‘Science-of the-mind / not a religion…’ ( Ignoring that 2,500 years with no mention whatsoever of the physical functioning of the brain itself would invalidate that statement somewhat, and just trying to shift the focus away)

    Similarly a discussion about whether Sogyal, his behaviour and Rigpa are traditional Buddhist or a Buddhist-like cult, diverts attention from the rather glaring fact that the very structure of any authoritarian dominant/submissive relationship such as the pivotal guru-disciple structure of Buddhism, contains the raw material for abuse, meaning that it is inevitable that Sogyal and Rigpa are traditionally Buddhist and cult-like at the same time because these two things are inseparable.. The structure itself creates ideal conditions for cult-abuse, in much the same way that a group of men who decide to reject any sexual relationship with women or other men, and opt for compulsory celibacy while wearing frocks are probably not really going to be ideal child-carers. There are very obvious clues there…..

    The problem is that the purpose of discussing cult abuse is hijacked by the spiritual equivalent of slightly drunken bickering in a bar about who killed Kennedy.

    Abuse, unlike the second shooter on the grassy knoll, isn’t a detail of history, it’s something that humans have always done and are continuing to do and probably always will.

    Life, including ours, exists by virtue of predation. As the Romans would say:’ Lupus est homo homini.’ Although, unlike wolves we can and must exercise our highly evolved intellects to resist the collateral suffering and cruelty of our biological but destructive impulses and imperatives. It really is as simple as that, or rather it should be, because medieval obscurantism and obfuscation, splitting hairs, whether about angels on the head of a pin or so-called ‘crazy wisdom’ is the same slippery slope slithered down by all the apologists for just about every horror our species has ever inflicted on itself.

    Abuse is the mis-use of power, the corruption of any imbalanced relationship, from families through groups to states. And mis-direction is one of its most important tools, because it distracts, conceals and always seeks to draw attention away from what is actually happening.

    In the case of this blog of course, there’s no abuse as such, but with some commentators, sadly, there is the de facto complicity with abuse of self-interested, indulgent moral and intellectual dishonesty.

    Perhaps before adding a comment, it might be better to ask yourself: ‘Do I have any real personal first-hand experience of the subject?’ (Or did you just sit at the back during a few teachings, or read some books or online comments.)

    ‘ Have I really tried to honestly analyse what all this is really about?’ ( Or are you just trying to preserve your cherished dreams of spiritual progress)

    ‘Am I according sufficient respect to those women who have had the courage to relate their experiences?’ (And if not, why?)

    ‘Have I really tried to study this in a much wider psychological, social and historical context or read extensively about cults, abuse, mind-control and so on ?’

    ‘Am I contributing or just trivialising something very serious indeed just to amuse myself or satisfy an obsession?’

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  447. “Now the ‘evil minister’ talks again:
    http://www.bhutanobserver.bt/dont-black-heart/

    Oh bella, if you read it, youd see what a nasty piece of work Sogyal is. Even in opening the speech, he belittles the dean and then undermines him to his students-just as he always has done. nasty little man

    Dolma, which monastery was this?

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  448. During the time that I worked in the front office of a big monastery, a woman committed suicide by the lovely pond where Rinpoche would feed the fish. She shot herself. I found this deeply disturbing and lit candles for her and sat by the pond thinking about her. But the administration was mainly concerned about the public perception of what occurred and making statements about how Buddhism doesn’t support suicide etc. No one talked about it much after that. There were no extra people doing puja that day. You see, the main thing was the survival of the corporation– that was how the despair of a woman, who once worked at the monastery, was viewed.

    It’s this cold, unfeeling attitude that I see running rampant at Rigpa, Bellla. Cold and calculating.

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  449. E.G. That’s how I define cult– a situation where the needs of the organization trump basic human decency, honesty and dignity.

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  450. I still would like to know: Why is SR busy traveling the world teaching when he needs to be addressing these issues????? What an incredible denigration of every student he has had or still has!

    Almost everytime HHDalai Lama teaches, he will address the Shugden/NKT issue. This is because there are frequently protestors outside his teachings when he travels– or because he is giving an initiation and wants the samaya to be pure.

    When you are a public figure at the level of HHDL or SR, you are responsible on a public level. You MUST address public allegations. Bella, in my mind, the very fact that SR will not speak out on these issues is in itself culpable. I can understand that you have devotion, and that devotion can be very blinding, but reading your blogs can be really sickening (e.g. Drolma draws her conclusions that SR is abusive because she had (sexual) dreams about him and she ended up drinking because SR was nasty to her…). And very sad– do you ever take stock of yourself? Do you ever wonder about defending an empire and losing yourself?

    However true the allegations in BTT are is not the only issue, but why SR will not treat his students and the public with the respect, decency and courtesy that they all deserve. And why the Rigpa seniors will not do the same.

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  451. Now the ‘evil minister’ talks again:

    http://www.bhutanobserver.bt/dont-black-heart/

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  452. “are now resorting to attacks against Mary Finnegan.”

    Now? Where have you been during the past years? Her comments made me write my first time ever comment here.

    DI,

    I was told many times from various writers here in the early days – also from the owner of this blog – that Rigpa is a cult and my writings proves that I have cultist thinking. You told me to read your views on cultism many times on some generalized page when I asked you to explain your view about me as a cultist. I wanted to know what sentence written by me shows exactly to you that I’m a cultist. You always told me to go to the general cultism page without answering me. I’m avoiding you because you pretend not to know. Wasted arguing. These days I don’t have interest nor time to spend searching through the million posts here.

    Drolma draws her conclusions that SR is abusive because she had (sexual) dreams about him and she ended up drinking because SR was nasty to her…

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  453. So there we are, I’m actually pretty much in agreement with Sock Man. Wonders never cease.

    I do wonder about that arrow, how one ever extracts it? Do we storm LerabLing? That’s a tough one, so I’ll continue assessing the arrow.

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  454. I note both Sheila/Saureen and bella, both of whom have claimed the allegations against Sogyal are untrue, fabrications, are now resorting to attacks against Mary Finnegan.

    Do they really think that people dont see through this obvious tactic to draw people away from the truth> Are we really that stupid-Its all untrue because the person who says it wears a false nose?

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  455. Well, if you ask Sheila/Saureen, I suspect her solution will keep your mouth shut until someone is actually charged and convicted. If she had children and someone told her her babysitter had a reputation for having sex with minors, following her thinking, she should be happy to leave her children in the babysitters care-at least until theyre convicted.
    Asking why it happened in the first place is OK (if people were clever enough to listen-which usually theyre not) but it does smack of the Buddhist story about the man with the arrow-who wont have it extracted until he knows who fired it and therefore subsequently dies.
    Asking if it continues? It might drive it underground but in what way does it help the victims of the past? SO they can say ‘I told you so’??
    Do we say it sucks FULL STOP???
    Well, following HHs advice, and using our own judgement to decide whether we believe the allegations to be true or not, we should protest as much as we can without becoming obsessed (Mary;)) and let the public know via the press, the web and so on.NO FULL STOP in other words-keep the pressure up while maintaining ones sanity(ish)

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  456. So do we wait until after the court’s decision to ask how this can be prevented in future? To ask why it happened in the first place? (e.g. power has a lot to do with how tantra is practiced in the west) Or should we be asking questions now, knowing that the abuses in Rigpa, and in other Dharma centers as well, are continuing? Or do we just say it sucks, full stop?

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  457. Could you answer that question where I called Rigpa a cult and you a cultist please, are you avoiding me? Also where is that stuff about drink I missed it you are going on a tangent again, what has this to do with inappropriate relations between religious leaders and their disciples what this blog is about.
    This not about TB, or whether TB is right or wrong, whether the DL is arrested in NY. Whether religion causes abuse. This is not a first year student debate about witness statements to the police. You are not allowed to use your spiritual authority to get layed. This has nothing to do with Tantric stuff. It is getting layed under the influence of power. It sucks

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  458. So you can’t generalize your own choices.

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  459. I meant I never saw Rigpa people drunk, not in the retreat of course but not outside retreat either. And I did eat outside everyday after the teachings and in places I saw Rigpa people too.

    I have heard that in one of Finnigan’s favourite groups in Russia they are drunk and eat lots of meat in tsoks. That sounds really weird and we have never had such scenes in Rigpa. I’ve never seen any drunk or drunken person in Rigpa. Alcohol is not seen in the retreats. If you go outside to eat, then it’s your own choice, but even then I’ve never seen anybody drunk – and there are hundreds or sometimes thousands of people in the retreats or events.

    So you can generalize your own choices.

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  460. Never saw me passing out bottles before a teaching???!!!

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  461. Bella, are you saying you never saw me staggering in the aisles????

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  462. Sheila, A is not therefore D, without a little rational work on your side. Leaps of faith are exactly what is wrong and what we have to watch out for.

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  463. Look at me I can try to change the subject, I am a realised deflector fox or more politically correct vixen!

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  464. I have seen the same people all through the decade I’ve been there. I know people who have been there for 20-30 years. Besides you, I have never seen anyone drunk or heard anybody becoming drunk. Alcohol is not part of the Rigpa scene, so maybe you should look for reasons for your drinking elsewhere. I’m sorry that this sounds a bit strict, but I think it’s also wrong that you are making your life or experience a generalization.

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  465. MF starts the entire piece with a salvo of deliberate sarcasm as to the Dalai Lama’s character and intentions. Its the same, snide tone Fox News announcers adopt when preaching to their converted. Yet to friends and supporters she claims to think highly of him.

    Whether due to inner conflict or the effects of a paycheck (real or imagined), the cynical tone and evident hypocrisy turn me off immediately.

    I really don’t care what she thinks of Sogyal Rinpoche; her attacks on the Dalai Lama and multiple other well-respected, hard-working teachers tell me all I need to know.

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  466. No current Rigpa people. The rest have exited, running.

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  467. Isn’t it amazing that no Rigpa student has any idea what MF is writing about?

    I think at least some should know about activities that are so strange happening… It just looks really bizarre – and mad to Rigpa people.

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  468. Sheila, you might want to read a little more before you make statements about the non-existence of sexual abuse by spiritual teachers. As Stephen Edelstein writes, “A list of spiritual teachers who have committed sexual transgressions during the past few decades reads almost like a Who’s Who of modern spiritual figures and includes priests, ministers, rabbis, gurus, yogis, rochis, senseis, swamis, lamas, maggids and imams.”(“Sex and the Spiritual Teacher, p. 4, Ch 1 in my Kindle).

    I have been critical of Mary Finnigan on this thread because I wish she had been more careful and conservative with her allegations, but this is not to say that I discredit her work in exposing abuses. As Sock Man says, the head-in-the-sand approach must go. It’s not working to protect students in our Dharma Centers. It’s that simple.

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  469. “Treating it as merely “inappropriate,” or something that can be regulated by some kind of code of conduct, really downplays it.”

    Yeah, in fact, whats the point in any small minded ‘laws’?Lets not bother-then there would be no abuse because the word wouldnt exist

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  470. Sexist comments sheila-women get drunk and hit men and children too
    Drolma NB abuse “is an issue for the law of the land” is Sheilas long term argument ie unless it has been the subject of litigation, it is not abuse. So all the untold stories of abuse are necessarily lies-this is her trollogic and the best she can offer

    “Abuse within religion, quite frankly, pales in comparison, and in proportion.”

    Get that? abuse in religion doesnt happen much and is insignicant. Also,religion does into facilitate abuse??? Sheila, you need to get out more

    Maybe you HAVE lived with Tibetans-But, as thousands of examples prove, that doesnt make you immune to shangri la syndrome

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  471. Would you say, then, Sheila, that every sexual relationship between a spiritual teacher and his/her student is abuse? By your terminology, I guess not.

    That’s why I use such words as inappropriate and speak of a code of conduct. There are drunks beating their wives and there are unmarried therapists gently seducing their clients. In the allegations against SR, there are both types of abuse. There are those that would be identified as abuse even if they were committed by a common drunk and there are those that psychologists call abuse simply based on the fact that there is a power inbalance in the relationship between spiritual teacher and student. Harm occurs there even though it might appear to be a very innocuous looking affair.

    I am not downplaying the abuse of the drunk because I discuss the abuse of the therapist.

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  472. Which is not to say it doesn’t matter–abuse is abuse.

    Treating it as merely “inappropriate,” or something that can be regulated by some kind of code of conduct, really downplays it.

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  473. No blog frees anyone from abuse. And no religion dooms anyone to it.

    Abuse is a human crime; it is independent of blogs and religions. It is a matter for the law of the land.

    There is more abuse taking place right now in houses on my block, secular, atheist houses which have nothing to do with religion, than in any church or temple I am associated with. Abuse is a human flaw.

    Sorry to be man-focused here for a second, but, basically–guys get drunk and hit women and children. That single fact is at the root of the vast majority of abuse in my culture, and very likely, in yours.

    Abuse within religion, quite frankly, pales in comparison, and in proportion.

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  474. Helen, If you were at all objective and investigated, you might see that most of the teachings of the Buddha can actually be viewed as science and as philosophy. The religion of Buddhism is only a part of those ancient teachings. I’m not quite sure why the fact that they’re 2,500 years old makes them less relevant or valid. We know how to blow up the world now and we’ve found some cures for diseases, but modern science hasn’t taken us very far on understanding the brain or human emotions or why we still kill each other– why we abuse each other.

    Yes, we suffer, but why do some people suffer so much more than others? And can our mental states lessen how much we experience suffering? Can our mental states improve our physical health and extend our life? Can our experiences of love and compassion be cultivated infinitely so that they not only improve our lives but improve the lives of others as well? Are there methods to help us become more goodhearted human beings? Methods to help us be less angry and destructive?????

    These are all important questions and Buddhism has a lot to say about them all and many more. So the Buddha’s teachings are very useful even if you have no use for religion. You don’t have to be religious to make use of Buddhism is my understanding.

    At any rate, my main purpose, as a Buddhist practitioner, a religious person, is not to achieve anything for myself but to become better able to serve others.

    And this is the profound sadness for me of these discussions we’re having. The very first words of the Buddha were: Commit not a single unwholesome act. To conclude that abuse is caused by Buddhism itself is a little like saying that getting lost is caused by a map.

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  475. These arguments go round in circles, and they can go on for ever, nothing much seems to emerge. But the most important issue that very few commentators here want to face is that the very nature of religion itself is abuse, and the most fundamental and damaging abuse of all concerns the truth.

    Buddhism says that by following the teachings you will be able to transcend suffering, old age and death.

    No you won’t, no one ever has, and no one ever will, simply because we’re not basically different from all the other life-forms living out our very finite existence under extremely restricted conditions, on the surface of one planet in a vast, inherently meaningless universe. Do you seriously believe you could transcend that? We’re just not that special, So it’s impossible, It’s a lie, a fantasy that naive people dedicate their whole lives to on absolutely no evidence whatsoever.

    Does anyone actually even know someone who managed it? Or someone who knew someone else somewhere at some stage who did? Of course not. Absolutely everybody suffers, ages and then dies.
    Even Buddhists.

    The whole edifice rests on nothing more substantial than wishful thinking about hearsay from two and a half thousand years ago. Just think about that for a moment: would anyone in their right mind do anything else of even the slightest importance on that basis?

    So why be surprised about all the various kinds of abuse carried out under the cover of religion, or the lies and evasion used to conceal them, when the religion itself is founded on one very big lie indeed.

    Yes, life is precious, but to really appreciate it, you need to grow up before it’s over.

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  476. In the interests of demonstrating once more that HH Dalai Lama has not been silent about where we need to be going with lama misconduct, I have transcribed two exerpts from his introductory teaching to the Kalachakra given July, 2011 in Washington, DC, shortly after the documentary had been aired in Canada.

    The link is http://www.dalailama.com/webcasts/post/195-kalachakra-preliminary-teachings The exerpts are taken from Day 2, one at 27 minutes, the other at 2:24. I have transcribed them directly, in His Holiness’s broken English.
    With the first quote, he began by discussing historical work by HG Wells.
    Regarding HG Wells’ historical account written in 1930, His Holiness says, “In his book he praised Buddha… but then later… he mentioned Tibetan Buddhism is something different. [He mentioned] If Buddha appears in Tibet today, he may [be] shocked. I think [HG Wells] information [is] based on those ignorant people writing about Tibetan Lamaism. And then also Tibetans ourselves– of course there are good Buddhists, good practitioners, knowledgeable Buddhists there, but overall, [in Tibet] Buddhism [has] become like fashion…[with] too much ritual, without knowing the meaning and not much serious.
    Then also the tulku lama institution, unfortunately eventually it [has] become something like social status. Totally wrong! I think it is worthwhile [to be] criticized by Dalai Lama, who [is] also [part of this institution]…since 6th century, [there has been the] high lama institution. So that is self criticism. Really, we must be careful, we must be realistic, [we] should not follow our traditional way of– something like blind faith. That [is] out of date. So therefore, I cannot blame those people who describe Tibetan Buddhism as Lamaism. Because you see in this society, so much importance [is] about lama.
    That [is] also due to lack of knowledge. Buddha made very clear: in order to be lama, what qualifications [are needed]. Tibetans usually, generally, [say] high seat, high throne, that’s big lama. Silly! (Translator: So in Kham, people say the way to judge the highness of the lama is by judging the size of the caravan, the number of horses and the more horses in the caravan, that’s the higher lama.
    [Then two hours later in the teaching, His Holiness returns to the subject.]
    Thubten Jingpa (translating for His Holiness)…The Buddha himself spoke extensively about the qualifications that are necessary on the part of the spiritual teacher—in different contexts, for example in the context of monastic discipline practice, he spoke specifically of the qualities that are necessary for someone to act as a spiritual mentor and teacher in those kind of contexts. With relation to Mahayana teachings, particularly the sutra level teachings, the Buddha spoke of ten primary qualities, the ten key qualities that are necessarily required on the part of the spiritual teacher and in the context of vajrayana, he spoke of different kind of qualities that are essential for someone to serve and act as a spiritual teacher. And this is to really underline the importance of insuring that the person who’s going to be your teacher is a qualified one.
    His Holiness in English: Many years ago, I think 15 years ago, one day, one Chinese from mainland China came to see me, a Buddhist, very serious. He told me [that] nowadays some false lamas from Tibet [have come] to mainland China and claimed themselves to be Dharma-raja (translator- Dharma Kings). Then a number of Chinese devotees very much… respected [them] and were devoted. Then eventually, those [who] claimed [to be] Dharma-rajas, their main purpose was: seeking money, seeking sex.
    Then he asked me, I should do something. Then I told him, I cannot do anything. The important [thing] is those devotees must learn the qualities of lama which [are] mentioned in Buddha’s teaching. Then when you meet someone who claims [to be a] Dharma-raja, then test, examine; you must spy on such person. Then, not one day, one week, but months months [you must examine]. Then eventually you find something, all those at least minimum qualification [are] there and [he/she is a] reliable person, then you consider [him/her] as your teacher and receive teaching.
    So that’s the only way. I told him, like that. So therefore, in the West—and in Mongolia, also, sometimes it happens. The person who claims something very special, sort of teacher, but actually, as I mentioned earlier, seeking wealth, and seeking sex. So, [you] must be careful—and examine, or spying, including myself; you must spy on me. That’s important. And also, you should judge, my today’s talk, what differences [between that and] ten years ago, [between that and] fifteen, twenty years ago. And whether it’s consistent. And my talks, whether go well with Nagarjuna’s text or Shantideva’s text and Buddha’s own text. That way you must examine. That’s important.

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  477. Abuse is not “inappropriate sexual contact,” and neither is “inappropriate sexual contact” abuse.

    Abuse is abuse, and has legal definitions and attending laws.

    “Inappropriate sexual contact” between adults is determined differently by different people and varies according to race, creed, culture, and individual preference.

    The law may not decree what a culture deems “inappropriate,” and neither may a culture break the law of the land.

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  478. Lucy, you believe Victoria Barlow?

    I’d rather believe Patrick.

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  479. Believe me, talking to Patrick would not ” be a place of reality check” for anyone.
    He is on the payroll, he’s Sogyal’s representative on earth after all. When the American court case was brought to our attention and some of us left in total disgust, having had to face the hard evidence, being made to look harder and closer as to what had really been happening in Sogyal ‘s private world, Patrick’s behavior became very interesting indeed, acting like an agent of SR’s secret police wanting to find out if more trouble was brewing for Sogyal; not giving a rat’s arse about the abuses that the women who had fallen pray to S had to endure.

    The guy is incapable of empathy, real compassion and independent thinking. He has become “part of the crew, part of the ship”, a prisoner of the Rigpa “groupthink” in modern parlance. I sincerely believe it’s too late for him to change now, don’t know what it would take, maybe a video of what Sogyal is up to secretly in private, in a court room… in front of a jury?!…and even then, I’m not sure he would be capable of a normal decent response.

    That goes for most of the oldies that have stayed on board and some of the people who blog here. Not much hope then for this site, sadly. Just the same recycled crap, nonsense, pro Buddhist, pro anything not rational, to keep the delusion alive at all costs.

    So much narcissism and delusional scripts that seem to keep you all happy, give you a sense of purpose I guess, not doing much against abuse though, just a waste of time and energy.

    Sogyal would probably thank you all profusely for keeping his flag flying, and who cares if people are abused as long as it keeps you high!?
    Because that’s what Tibetan Buddhism is all about after all, keeping Lamaism in business and keeping the cult alive and well. So yes, people in this blog are addicted to cults, and as such, are unable to think for themselves, always referring to this teaching, that lama blah blah………

    Just to remind you all that this blog was designed to help people freeing themselves from cultish abuses, by denouncing them, not praising them and denying the reality of abuse at the hands of men like Sogyal. I guess that’s the problem with this blog, it has been taken over by people with too much time on their hands and too many vested interests in seeing their cults and beliefs carry on, no matter what the damages to others or themselves may be even . So much selfishness, but that’s human nature for you. Very disappointing indeed.

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  480. Please indicate when we called Rigpa a cult or you a cultist?
    I have no need to discuss anything with Patrick, we are not a site about Buddhism but about cultist abuse in the form of inappropriate sexual contact between disciples and leaders. So what would I want to discuss with him? This whether it occurs in the Catholic Church or Scientology or any group!

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  481. DI, you have also called me cultist and Rigpa a cult. Patrick is one of those who lead ‘the cult’, so it would be a place of reality check for you.

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  482. Just for fun!

    Even the photos are nice, look at:

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/dalai-lama-decks-photographer-in-disco-melee,1093/

    Dalai Lama Decks Photographer In Disco Melee

    September 25, 1996 | ISSUE 30•07

    NEW YORK—An angry and visibly intoxicated Dalai Lama was arrested early this morning after assaulting a photographer outside the newly revamped Studio 54 discotheque in Manhattan.

    Enlarge ImageThe Dalai Lama was arrested on assault and battery charges after punching and kicking a New York Post photographer outside Studio 54. Shouted the enraged Buddhist: “You want to eat camera, picture boy?”

    Charged with assault and battery, the Buddhist leader, whose real name is Gejong Tenzin Gyatso, was released on $1,500 bail. The incident marked his third brush with the law in as many weeks.

    According to witnesses, the Precious Sovereign, 61, who had been drinking heavily all evening, punched and kicked New York Post photographer Mike Pallas several times after Pallas attempted to take his picture exiting the famed disco.

    “As soon as he saw that camera, he just went off,” said bouncer Todd Gehr, who was guarding the exit at the time. “I grabbed him by his saffron prayer robe and pulled him off [Pallas]. He tried chanting for a minute, but then more flashbulbs started popping, and he completely lost it again.”

    Witnesses say that instead of backing down, Pallas made the mistake of ridiculing the central belief of Lamaist Buddhism—namely that, through reincarnation, the same soul has occupied the bodies of 14 successive rulers.

    “That did it,” Studio 54 patron Larry Hoffman said. According to Hoffman, the Dalai Lama then yanked Pallas’ camera away and wielded it threateningly at him, shouting, “You like picture? You want to eat camera, picture boy?”

    Enlarge ImageThe Dalai Lama spent seven hours in a Queens, NY, jail cell before being released on $1,500 bail.

    Signs of trouble came hours earlier, when the 14th religious and temporal ruler of Tibet shouted repeated requests for “Bush! I want to hear plenty more Bush!” When the club DJ responded by playing KC and the Sunshine Band’s “Shake Your Booty,” the monk threw a shotglass through the control booth and invited the DJ to “step outside and kiss the five fingers of enlightenment.”

    In addition to the charges against him, the Dalai Lama was cited for resisting arrest. At first, he refused to give his real name, claiming to be “the protector, the emanation and the presence on earth of Chen-re-zi,” the Buddhist personification of divine compassion. “And if you not believe,” he added, “you let me out of these cuffs and you get one-way ticket to Nirvana plenty quick.”

    When asked where he was born, he responded, “In 1936 in Chhija Nangso, Tibet… and also in 1876 in Lhasa, Tibet… and also in Nai-tung, Tibet—” before being gagged and taken away.

    Two weeks ago, the Tibetan leader was arrested for driving while intoxicated, though his lawyer maintained his client’s high spirits were due solely to a “very satisfying night of meditation.” Last Friday, he was stopped in his 1994 Lexus by a New Jersey state trooper for “making gestures to a police official that had no connection with the Noble Eightfold Path.” Both times he was released on bail.

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  483. It has been reported to the police, the focus of this blog is not police work but a discussion of abuse, which you spend your time trying to distract!

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  484. What may I ask would I be doing in seeing Patrick please tell. I already have had direct evidence from a victim, I do not need to talk to him about it period!

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  485. I have a question: Aside from HH Dalai Lama and DKR, are there any other lamas, high or low, who have spoken out against lama misconduct? And has DKR spoken out recently? Does anyone know of any?

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  486. I bet they, DI, didn’t go to talk with Patrick when he was in Ireland.

    Are you too scared? Patrick is not scary, at all.

    It’s easy to spread rumors in the internet. That BTT blog is total crap and you are involved. You don’t care at all if it is crap or not.

    Patrick would have been one real place for a reality check, but no…

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  487. Garde, if you are concerned, why haven’t you gone to the authorities?

    Do you know what I would do if a person came to me and told me they were being abused by someone? I would go straight to the cops and get myself on record.

    You’re saying you have first-hand testimony of abuse and have not gone to the authorities?

    Then shame on you. I’m sorry, you talk a fine game about being concerned about abuse, yet in all these years have not gone to the authorities? I don’t buy it. In every civilised nation–certainly in yours and mine–citizens are encouraged to report abuse.

    Have you reported it?

    I cannot report abuse, because I have never experienced any, nor had anyone report abuse to me.

    Yet you, who claim to have first-hand testimony, have not gone to the police? If you fail to report a first-hand abuse story to the authorities, don’t go yelling at others to report things they haven’t even experienced and therefore have no legal nor moral right to testify to.

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  488. Yes Sheila is back to relativise the problem. If it does not happen in her area, it does not happen anywhere. It is simple go to the cops, yeah give us a break.
    This section is about abuse and though Drolma and Put a sock in it disagree they fundamentally are addressing the only show in town here.The imbalance of power and abuse of spiritual authority The terrible self immolations in Tibet are terrible, Chinese whispers or undercurrents are issues to be fought over, but not on this thread. Sheila fiddle while Rome burns. Please don’t dance a céilí on my grave. Stick to the day job. I have had enough of beating around the bush. Get real women have been abused by your man. They have told me and Bella I do not need you to give me permission or for you to interview them to allow their stories to be true.
    Get it! It happened and it is still happening.

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  489. Oh if it were just that simple.

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  490. Drolma, part of the problem is that I simply haven’t seen anything of what you are describing in any sangha, including my own, which has been here for nearly 40 years. I have never in my time here picked up on even a single whisper of some kind of past or present “sex trouble.” To quote a dearly departed friend, “It’s just not what happens.”

    For that matter, having met countless people from other sanghas, neither has it even once arisen in conversation with them. It’s just not part of my experience, nor apparently the experience of other Buddhists I have met.

    My advice to fellow Buddhists is exactly the same as my advice to any adult, in any ituation: If someone’s behavior disturbs you, don’t hang out with them. If someone hits you, go to the police.

    If you, in your own sangha, feel there is a serious problem with your particular teacher, and no one is reporting it, ask them why. You can’t assume they’re wrong, and they can’t assume you’re wrong. There are no “Buddhism police” with any authority whatsoever to override the laws of any land.

    Abuse issues are between you, an alleged perpetrator, and the police. “I find your teaching style icky” issues are between you, the teacher, and the rest of the sangha–democracy matters. If almost no one has a problem with a teacher, it’s not up to one or two students to get the teacher fired. It’s a free country, and if people want to attend someone’s teachings, that’s their business–even if you personally can’t stand the teacher. Some of the most beloved teachers at my university were guys I personally couldn’t stand.

    However, I have attended a lot of Tibetan teachings and never once have I felt any sense of unease or threat. Exactly the contrary–they have been warm, positive experience, without a single exception.

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  491. I agree, saulaan, up to a point. Absolutely, that expectation some have that His Holiness or any other TB leader can police this situation or judge guilt is unreasonable and an infinite regress as I have said on earlier posts.

    However, I believe that western students cannot move forward on the issue of sexual abuse without in some way including TB lamas. Boundaries need to be placed in order to create safe spiritual communities, which entails a consensus between teachers and students both. It seems we need to break out of a situation in which either the students or the teachers are demanding a situation unacceptable to the other. His Holiness might or might not have a role in such a dialogue, but definitely such a dialogue needs to happen. As things stand now, most TB lamas believe strongly that sexual relations between teachers and students can occur freely at the discretion of the teacher (e.g. teacher knows best.). That is the culture that needs to be addressed– which is where we might the help of higher leaders.

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  492. Drolma, I agree that the world looks to the Dalai Lama to answer questions, and address issues, in Buddhism.

    The Dalai Lama has been clear on Shugden – he’s given his advice. He’s also been clear on abuse – he’s given his advice. Repeatedly.

    In neither of these two cases has he–nor should he–suspended his colossal teaching schedule to play policeman or arbitrator on a case-by-case basis.

    Everyone with strong feelings on a particular issue, myself included, looks for someone “up high” to swoop in and save the day, but the real answer is that the day can only be saved, in the end, by taking individual responsibility.

    He said “go to the press.” BTT is not the press, and very few will mistake it for such.

    Buddhism has always (in my experience) stressed personal responsibility more so than other religions, i.e. the answer is in ourselves. In some ways waiting for the Dalai Lama to ensure a solution to our “Western Buddhist” issues is like waiting for a teacher to ensure our progress on the path. The teacher can give advice, but in the end, every major step is up to us.

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  493. S Puppet, I’ve never been banned from any forum. Unless you’re suggesting RickRoll banned me, in which case I would ask, with software that antiquated how could one possibly tell if one has been banned?

    I’ve said repeatedly I am Sheila/saulaan (I have no idea at this moment which name the Avatar ‘service’ will choose for me in this post).

    But you know that, because we’ve had this discussion before.

    I’d ask that you keep the RR testosterone overload out of this forum. You have more than enough opportunity to dump it, completely unopposed, there.

    Point of order: a troll, by internet definition, is not someone using a real name.

    Interesting that you’d mis-connect the “tripe” comment to Chinese “feudalism” issues, when I was referring to the writing style used in BTT.

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  494. This is totally wrong. Think Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro and Kandro Tsering Chodron; think Marpa and Dakmema. Think HH Sakya Trizin and Dagmo Tashi Lhakee

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  495. And Saulaan, isn’t it true that there is a practice amongst Tibetans that when a woman marries a lama, her own lama is someone other than her husband? I remember hearing that– perhaps some indication that Tibetans themselves believe that the two relationship are best kept separate.

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  496. Danger Danger Saulaan is Sheila is a confirmed troll, banned from other forumsDanger Danger

    Dear Sheila If HH is not the supreme being of Tibetan Buddhism, how come he stuck his nose into the Karmapa issue? Never has been his business How come his supporters scream for blood when anyone dares allude to this?

    Also

    “Neither “Shangrila” nor “Anti-Shangrila” misconceptions are useful when dealing with Tibetan issues–religious or otherwise”

    And

    “I believe the point is clearly to splash aversive images across peoples minds, so that while intellectually one discards them as tripe, when one next hears about the Dalai Lama, or Tibetans, or even Buddhism some trace of aversion remains”

    are contradictory, On the one hand, you claim neither Shangri la nor feudal Tibet existed. Then, on the other, you attempt to undermine anything that points to a feudalistic set up to be “tripe”

    Usually you took at least a fe days to start contradicting yourself-this is a new record even by your (double) standards

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  497. Saulaan, I wasn’t advocating no sex– and certainly sex between consenting adults is fine for any human being, including spiritual teachers. The trouble arises when the sex occurs between a spiritual teacher and his/her student becaise the power imbalance is too great. There’s a general consensus amongst psychologist that harm in these instances is the result. There is evidence that even when this occurs as part of a consensual, loving relationship, harm results in most instances.

    And absolutely, you’re correct about the limits on what His Holiness can and can’t do– and I do think most of the unfounded criticism of him comes form people expecting that he can act as the pope or something. However, he is a foremost authority in Tibetan Buddhism– the Shugden affair attests to that. I do actually think there’s a lot he can and is doing about these troubles. I also think he needs our confidence in him to keep acting on our behalf. The fact is, he really is the only Tibetan lama speaking out consistently and strongly against misconduct by lamas. Even HH Karmapa doesn’t appear to be taking on that leadership role (though I haven’t listened closely to his teachings or statements for some months now). It’s almost as if HH Dalai Lama is the only Tibetan lama who is consistantlyeven interested in this trouble. The rest look like they just wish it would go away.

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  498. The DL already spoke out at the infamous conference of Western Buddhist teachers (Kulananda of the FWBO, well known for systematic sexual avuse in attendance) The conference was called in part, in response to Sogyals antics becoming public. His advice? “Name names in newspapers” So MF is asctually following HHs instruction in that respect

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  499. With all due respect, the Dalai Lama is not the head of Tibetan Buddhism. He doesn’t have any responsibility to act this way or that way in response to the actions of another Buddhist; he’s not even the head of his own sect, the Gelug school. While he would definitely be more likely to weigh in on a Gelug point of order, he’s not even in a position, ultimately, to judge that.

    What he does do is speak out, daily, against humans harming humans (and in fact, against harming any being), and that more than covers any and all abusive situations.

    It’s really not the Dalai Lama’s bailiwick, nor ever has been, to act as the supreme judge of Buddhism.

    If any person is abusing another person, that is a matter for the law of the land, whatever land it happens to be.

    This will probably sound wrong, too, but I don’t believe in any “no sex” regulations. There are many, many Buddhist traditions in the world, including in the US, and to try and come up with a pan-sect ban on sex is just not constructive. There are plenty of teachers (of Buddhism and many other things) who end up in a healthy, and often permanent, relationship with a fellow adult, and to suggest that is “dirty” in some way is illogical and kind of sad.

    I respect where you’re coming from–when you’re suggesting such things, you’re likely picturing abuse, and genuinely want to prevent it–however, that image doesn’t describe the vast majority of Buddhist experience. It’s a mistake to assume all relationships constitute abuse.

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  500. I think the conversation needs to be moving forward in a more constructive way now. Thus far, the conversation has been pretty polarized, either strongly against or strongly supportive of BTT. There have been two camps pretty much and I’d like to suggest a third camp, one that could eventually have a hope of including the help of Tibetan Buddhist leaders.

    In this camp, we’re not blind to the fact that sexual abuses have, in all probability, occurred at the hands of SR and they’ve probably been pretty horrible abuses and they’re probably still occurring. However, we also don’t need to dismiss SR’s value as a spiritual teacher completely. We don’t need to say that he’s stupid and has not helped many students in honest, caring ways. If you investigate, this paradox of gifted spiritual teacher occuring in the same body as a chronic sex abuser is pretty common in all religious traditions. Like it or not, it’s the way it seems to happen, the way genius gets packaged sometimes.

    The next step is about what’s to be done, where do we go as Western students. It is becoming more the consensus, certainly amongst psychologists and many in Western Buddhist traditions, that spiritual teachers must NOT have sex with their students. When teachers have sex with students, the spiritual community is no longer a safe place; the fabric of safety is torn. So, unless the spiritual teacher can commit to providing a safe spiritual community, he must stop teaching. It’s that simple.

    So that would be one start. Tenpel, in my discussions on http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/sogyal-rinpoche-and-the-silence-of-the-tibetan-buddhist-community-and-the-dalai-lama/
    had another suggestion that I liked a lot too. He said one way would be to require each spiritual teacher to state clearly to students, from the start, whether or not his/her spiritual community was a place where sex was allowed between teacher and student. Let the students know from the start what the deal was.

    Anyway, I think that these are the discussions that need to be starting, move out of all this silly polarity. I don’t know exactly what occurred between Mary and HH Dalai Lama when she approached him last with her accusations regarding SR, except that I know that they were accusations and that she was still at the finger pointing stage. And I’m not sure how His Holiness would respond to anyone who frequently referred to any lama as a “fat little so and so.” I’m not sure what she expected His Holiness to do and her portrayal of him as part of a collective silence is quite unjust. On many occasions I have heard him speak out strongly against misconduct on the part of lamas. On many occasions, I have heard him speak out against the system which supports lama abuse. He is, in fact, quite a lone voice, the one lama who speaks out frequently and strongly and consistently about these concerns.

    It is my perception that when His Holiness is able to help us through this, he certainly will help. I also think we need his help, perhaps with setting down strict boundaries in our Dharma centers. However, we don’t faciliate that by throwing out “side swipes” at His Holiness, we really don’t. I totally agree with saulaan on that one.

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  501. I believe the point is clearly to splash aversive images across peoples minds, so that while intellectually one discards them as tripe, when one next hears about the Dalai Lama, or Tibetans, or even Buddhism some trace of aversion remains.

    It doesn’t really matter if it’s true or untrue; you just fling a bunch of sensational filth and giggle when some of it sticks.

    Take one look at “American Buddhist” for an example of people who, in truly bizarre fashion, have made a…I don’t know what you’d call it, life’s work?…of this.

    I have no doubt that some of these people are truly angry at something in their past. I also have no doubt some of them aren’t angry at anything.

    They dislike (or feign so) the Chinese comparisons, but as long as the frenetic hyperbole mimics the tone (or in some cases, the actual text) of the Chinese government’s foamings, the comparisons are inevitable.

    Ask yourself this: is the Behind the Thangkas literary ilk likely to accelerate justice for victims of any crime? Because that’s the claim–it’s to “helping women.”

    How is any woman helped by this? The tone of BTT, for example, is retaliatory–not informative. No woman reading it will know where to go for help, who to talk to, or in any way have more tools to help keep her safe.

    We might suggest then that BTT is a “get back at Rigpa” tantrum. Okay, sounds about right…except for the side-swipes at the Dalai Lama and a host of other Tibetan teachers who have literally nothing to do with Rigpa, nor even with the Nyingma school. And, in what could likely make for a legal slander case, BTT impunes yet other (non-Nyingma) teachers whose integrity is not considered even by the author to be in question. In other words, at best the author just doesn’t care if truly good people are slandered, or at worst is happy to slander teachers she herself feels are actually not guilty.

    So it’s not really even anti-Rigpa, but something more.

    Keep peeling away the layers…

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  502. That’s what I’m struggling with, Sheila. It does seem as if Mary has a skew in her perceptions of His Holiness.

    And then one really has to ask: How much of what she has written about His Holiness in “Behind the Thangkas” is skewed as well?

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  503. Still wrestling w/blasted Avatar thing…obviously, this is Sheila…

    I have to add, regarding Mary Finnigan, that while I bear her no personal ill-will, she seems far too intelligent a person–and far too deliberate a writer–for me to accept as sincere her dual approach of s(n)ide-swiping the Dalai Lama on one hand, while insisting on being a strong supporter on the other.

    One does not publish a succession of cheap shots against a person one deeply respects.

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  504. Lord a’mighty. It’s still on here. I really should resist, but…my blood pressure isn’t high enough yet today, so:

    “TIBET NO ONGER EXISTS;CHECK YOUR MAPS-The Tibetans are ‘dancing’ in the West, with western partners, taking western money. Do you think we should all go back to therifeudal ifestyle to understand Dharma? Looks like.”

    Even mainland Chinese maps still delineate (a shrunken version of) Tibet.

    The Tibetans I know in the west area are generally married to Tibetans, and earn their money like anyone else (and not by using cameras to terrorize Chinese residents in town).

    No Tibetan I’ve met has suggested installing a “feudal” system of any kind; in practice, modern Tibetans have established, and continue to refine, a democracy.

    Regardless, Tibet was no more feudal over the course of history than any other nation (need we mention that at this very moment “modern” Americans are torching cars in Kentucky over a basketball game), so it’s really pointless to raise the tired old Communist spectre of “Tibetan feudalism” as if Tibetan society had been uniquely competitive–it wasn’t. Tibet was a normal place, with typical social stratification, having its ups and downs like any other nation.

    I do find it funny that the Chinese government (rather, the sole armed political party), when referring to the “feudalistic horrors” of Tibet includes Amdo and Kham in its hysterics. So often the borders of the real Tibet are confirmed, over and over, by such gaffes.

    Continuing to harp on Tibet and Tibetans as constituting some kind of “Anti-Shangrila” is just as useless as claiming the existence of a perfect “Shangrila.”

    Funny fact of the day: even while foaming that it is a “Western concept created only to destroy China,” no single entity pimps the image of a Tibetan “Shangrila” more frequently to attract business than the Chinese government.

    Neither “Shangrila” nor “Anti-Shangrila” misconceptions are useful when dealing with Tibetan issues–religious or otherwise.

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  505. ” Concern for a return to traditionalist/fundamentalist Dharma”

    So traditionalism is fundamentalism? Adherence to Buddhist principles as set out by the Buddha himself makes me Taliban? Get a grip.

    If the Buddha says abortion is murder in the Vinaya (See the four defeats) and I adhere to such a belief, I am on a par with Bin Laden??

    I dont know which is worse; being called a Chinese spy or an Islamist. Either way, so much for compassion, tolerance and understanding

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  506. Or ‘Spy’? “She said be careful his bowtie is really a camera”

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  507. Or could it be ‘Shug……’ Naaah too obvious

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  508. Yes of course Im an NKT insider (they work for the Chinese you know) Thats why I posted that link to the most prominent NKT blog on the web Duuuuh!
    Its such an easy defence isnt it Hes against Sogyal so he must work for the Chinese
    He questions the Dalai Lama so he works for the Chinese
    He questions my ideas so he works for the Chinese

    So, I question sexual abuse, I use my own mind to think for myself instead of blindly accepting authority and I question statements about the Buddhist attitude to abortion when they are blatantly wrong-yeah definitely Chinese

    Im beginning to wonder if I do work for them-Damned clever these orientals y’know

    I wonder if the S in S Puppet stands for Shanghai??

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  509. And there’s a 4th signature characteristic of NKT in SPuppet’s rantings: Wrathful manifestations, quite murderous and scarey sometimes, complements of Dorje Shugden.

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  510. E.G. he has three distinctive characteristics of the NKT in his outlook: 1. Disparagement of HH Dalai Lama; 2. Concern for a return to traditionalist/fundamentalist Dharma; and 3. Condemnation of Tibetans/support of the Chinese. Subtle, but it’s definitely there as a theme throughout his rantings.

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  511. Bella, about Tibet we are in total agreement (isn’t that nice?). SPuppet does sound more and more like an NKT insider, does he not?

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  512. I think lamas can marry and wear robes. Zero problem with that. I’m not interested in traditions and daily life, so people’s marriages do not concern me. I don’t care one bit if Catholic priests decide to start marrying. I think it would be healthy for them. If they work in a church or in a monastery, I think they can wear whatever costumes they please: even ordinary sheets if that is their wish. I have no interest in beginning to tell people what they should wear. I do have some opinions of all religions but they are mine and I’m not expecting world to change because I wish so.

    I’m more interested in the person and his teachings behind his clothes.

    It’s not dangerous for anybody if a lama wears robes and is married.
    It’s dangerous if Islamic fundamentalists start to force people to follow their ways by force. There’s difference between simple clothing and real dangers.

    For me Tibet exists. I will never give in to the Chinese theft of their lands.

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  513. “Do you think that the Tibetans are dancing in this world according to the Western rule – and the motivation of the way of their being is always related to the Westerners? They have acted this way long before West even knew about them – or they knew about the West”

    TIBET NO ONGER EXISTS;CHECK YOUR MAPS-The Tibetans are ‘dancing’ in the West, with western partners, taking western money. Do you think we should all go back to therifeudal ifestyle to understand Dharma? Looks like.

    What was acceptable in Tibet is not acceptable here Going by your reasoning, we should accept male priMary school teachers having sex with their ten yeear old male students-after all, it was acceptable in Japan and Ancient Greece, so why not here?

    Why, because this is not Ancient greece or Japan or Tibet, it is the twenty first century in the West. Thats where they are, thats who they are preaching to and that is whose money they are taking.

    It looks very much to me like you are externalising the same old royal court mentality that Rigpa disciples demonstrate when Sogyal screw his disiciples. Maybe that was acceptable in Tibet but it is also what lead to its downfall and it is not acceptable here, now.

    I fully agree with our importing Tibetan Dharma. However, I think we can leave the Tibetan tendency to screw while posing as monks,, or have sex with little boys in the monasteries behind Or do you think we should accept that

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  514. “The point is, this is a way for Tibetans to trick Westerners into believing they are something they are not. It is therefore potentially deceptive.”

    Do you think that the Tibetans are dancing in this world according to the Western rule – and the motivation of the way of their being is always related to the Westerners? They have acted this way long before West even knew about them – or they knew about the West.

    This has nothing to do with you or with any Western person.

    It’s a problem of a narcissist self to think that everybody’s actions are there only to deceive you. World doesn’t evolve around you, me nor any Western culture. It’s not obligatory for Tibetan people to change their ways or culture to suit Western standards or ideals. We might think it would be better (for us, for women, for students or for our politically correct culture), but they still don’t have any obligation to change their culture to please us.

    I would also like Islam to vanish from the Universe, but will Muslims just step aside and give up their religion? Unfortunately not.

    It’s so common for teachers and heads of the monasteries to have a wife that you can’t change that. Even Khenpos might have girlfriends. Tibetans accept it without hesitation and I have no reason not to accept. I just wish there were not so many monks, because celibate life fits only to a small group of people. I think celibacy is okay as a temporary thing or for some it might fit who have very low sexual drive or who really wish to give up that part of their lives (meaning less than 1% of population?).

    Some lama wearing robes having a wife has nothing to do with abuse.

    Maybe the wives are not equally important as the lamas, so that is why they are not mentioned. Could be part of the male chauvinism, or not. Some wives are very well known, some are not. Perhaps it has something to do with the wife’s own wish too. A president’s partner doesn’t necessarily want to be in the lime light.

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  515. actually bella I cant be bothered arguing with you-only you know the truth
    Lamas dressing as monks and having sex-ok for bella so ok for everyone else
    Lamas sexually abusing disciples-ok for bella so ok for everyone else

    OK-you win-Ive obviously got it wrong by thinking that those who dress like monks should act as monks and gurus shoudlnt have sex with disciples-I bow to your superior understanding of the dharma
    All that remains now is to sit back and watch it deteriorate furhter
    Kali Yuga You win

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  516. As the Tibetan saying goes, according to HH the Dalai Lama: ‘Outwardly you practice Hinayana, inwardly Mahayana, secretly Vajrayana.’

    In other words, these are practiced in unison and not in succession

    I already mentioned Kyabje Dilgo Rinpoche.There was never any question over his integrity

    The point is, this is a way for Tibetans to trick Westerners into believing they are something they are not. It is therefore potentially deceptive. Why, for instance, does Chokyi Nyima keep his partner private and still wear the robe?

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  517. None of the orders in Japan carry the pratimoksha vows anymore. All priests receive ordination via the bodhisattva precepts, thus no vows of celibacy are taken

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  518. First of all, in summary:

    1. Hinayana: you practice purity of the body

    2. Mahayana: you practice the purity of the mind (& heart)

    3. Vajrayana: you trying to remain in the state of non-duality

    If some Tibetan lama has practiced Hinayana type of concentration in his youth, moved on towards Tantric practice and has gained realization and could be considered a Dzogchen practitioner, is there any reason for him to remain a Hinayana practitioner? He can, like the Gelug, but it’s not a necessary in Nyigma. If he works in a monastery, he doesn’t wear layman clothes. If he doesn’t want to emphasize being a ngakpa, with ability to eat shit with one taste, he can as well wear red robes. His main practice or emphasize in the practice is no longer in controlling the physical sensations. Since the person has close contact to the monastery, everybody knows that he is married.

    Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche was married.
    http://www.buddhistmedia.com/uitzending.aspx?lIntEntityId=70&lIntType=0&lIntYear=2002

    Why do you think anyone tries to deceive you or any students? This is not a Communist system in China.

    In Zen Buddhism there are monks and priests. There are many types of groups also in Zen and I have seen people arguing in web pages about Zen monks and if they are allowed to call themselves monks when they are not monks like in the Theravadan tradition. Like someone in the West starts telling people who have been trained in Japan, that you should give up your title, because people in Christian based society are getting confused. Sounds equally ridiculous argument as the one we are having here.

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  519. “Red robes mean different thing from the orange and yellows.”

    Actually, both monastic robes are prescribed in the Vinaya, sarvastivadin and dharmagupta-the Vinaya requires celibacy

    “Also: Japanese Zen priests and monks get married and do not live in celibacy”

    There is no such thing as a ‘Japanese monk’, there are only priests. Japanese priests can marry-those who practice celibacy do so by choicenot doctrine

    Expecting those who wear the robes of an ordained monk to practice celibacy is hardly ‘Catholic’ Such an expectation is reasonable-\it is not an extreeme view

    In truth, the incomaparable Dilgo Khyentse, who wore robes himself, states that according to Buddha, anyone who has taken refuge can wear robes.

    However, if their intention is to deceive others……

    This is one of those ambiguities (like what to expect from a guru) that Tibetans have exploited down the years. Westerners, and Indians, see them and,out of respect for their ordination, revere them.

    Its an ambgiguity that was acceptable in Tibet perhaps. However, in the West it is a deception, sometimes deliberate (as with Chokyi Nyima) that directly leads to the procuring of funds and misplaced respect. It needs to be addressed

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  520. “DKR, Orgyen Tobgyal et al do not declare theri marriages openly: why?”

    That is not a secret. Everybody in Rigpa knows those things and in other groups too. People just know, because those things are not hidden but talked like gossip. Those things are not essential Buddhist teachings but belong to the private life, so why should a lama begin his teachings: “by the way: I got married”. Or: “I have found a nice girl. Let’s see how it turns out. I’ll inform you on every step of the way.” At least I do not talk about my relationships at work.

    Red robes mean different thing from the orange and yellows.

    Also: Japanese Zen priests and monks get married and do not live in celibacy. Are you going to go preaching your Catholic views there too?

    Unbelievable.

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  521. If Tibetans are going to come to the West, then they have to accept the morals they teach as their own. Otherwise, they preach hypocrisy

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  522. “If you knew other Western Buddhists, you would soon end up talking about married lamas with monk’s robes (if that was a problem for you) – and discover that even most Western Tibetan Buddhist practitioners KNOW about this Tibetan custom. If you just stick with your Western books, you don’t learn about Tibetan culture!

    Please explain why DKR, Orgyen Tobgyal et al do not declare theri marriages openly: why?

    Please explain why Chokyi Nyima finds it necessary to conceal his Western ‘consort’ of many years, secretly, behind his Boudha gompa? Same family, same double standards.

    Sounds like blatant profiteering to me. Or is it that you are expecting Westerners to accept the same double standards that were accepted in Tibet, you know, ‘Dont do as I do, do as I say’ Sorry Bella, but that wasnt how the Buddha taught and its not acceptable in a relgion that is founde on openess and honesty If your going to make money out of sellling a lifestyle, shouldnt you at least be living by it, not pretending?

    “Do you think that the Tibetans should abandon their customs just because one Anonymous Inji is troubled?”

    Im afraid it isnt only one person bothered by this and, yes, if Tibetans are going to take money from people on the basis of the belief that they are living a celibate lifestyle, they shouldnt be hiding their double life behind the monastic robe. And who said I was Inji?I am a human being who appreciates honesty and doesnt like deception, especially in the name of religion

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  523. That is surely one of the wisest statements he’s made!
    Now to remind ourselves of the real thing and to cheer us all up, follow this link.
    http://www.benchen.org/en/tenga-rinpoche/news/231-the-passing-of-tenga-rinpoche.html

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  524. Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche said when his student asked if he will get married:

    “If I find the right one. I have the same problems as every other human being.”

    He also said: “Every Tibetan lama should fall in love, and then have their hearts broken. They should look for a job – and the only job they could find should be cleaning the tables in the McDonalds. Then they should get sacked and finds bills in their mail when returning home. They should know the ordinary suffering of this world.”

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  525. “In short, for Tibetans, it may be acceptable, but for Injis, its potentially a very big con trick.”

    If you knew other Western Buddhists, you would soon end up talking about married lamas with monk’s robes (if that was a problem for you) – and discover that even most Western Tibetan Buddhist practitioners KNOW about this Tibetan custom. If you just stick with your Western books, you don’t learn about Tibetan culture.

    I have never seen a Westerner reacting in your way about the news of non-celibate lamas wearing robes.

    I have spent some time in India in the Tibetan areas, traveled from one place to another and met both monastic Tibetans and non-monastics, spent time in their homes + visited monasteries with my Tibetan friends. I didn’t stay one single night in a hotel, but in their homes or monasteries.

    If you are Chinese, then I don’t care what’s your view on the Tibetans.

    Do you think that the Tibetans should abandon their customs just because one Anonymous Inji is troubled? :)

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  526. “Just because you are a Western person or a Buddhist from some Western group and have read books published in the West, you think you know a lot”

    How do you know Im a “Westerner”? I am not a member of any group and, believe me, I have done more than read books published in the West (WHich include the works of Longchenpa BTW-so what is wrong witht them?)

    “Well, I’m sorry, but I do have Tibetan friends.” Note the implict admission that this is the extnet of your vast knowledge of Tibetan culture

    “I do know it for a fact and EVERY Tibetan knows it for a a fact that teachers can be married – and they can still wear their monastic robes”

    Obviously teachers can be married But if they wear robes as a married practitioner it is nowadays deceptive to those who are not familar with older Tibetan ideas. In short, for Tibetans, it may be acceptable, but for Injis, its potentially a very big con trick.

    Wear the yellow robe
    But if you are reckless
    You will fall into darkness

    Dhammapada 22:2

    “Why students can’t have sexual relationships?”
    Who said this? Students are free to have such relationships. Lamas who claim the moral highgroudn however, should not have sex with students

    “I guess you should know that tantric sexual practices are not taught to youngsters. Older monks and nuns do receive those teachings – but they practice on the level of mind. Maybe at some point they can get married ” ANd then they are no longer monks/nuns

    “your Western ‘academic’ mind cannot accept those things anyway”

    Another implicit admission of no academic training. Unlike, Longchenpa, Jamgon Kongtrul, Tzong Kha Pa, the Dalai Lamas…………etc etc

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  527. “Of course its about pretending. And wearing robes that most people think mean you are a spirtual celibate is neither humble nor is it an attempt to hide realization-in fact, its the complete opposite”

    Just because you are a Western person or a Buddhist from some Western group and have read books published in the West, you think you know a lot

    Well, I’m sorry, but I do have Tibetan friends.

    I do know it for a fact and EVERY Tibetan knows it for a a fact that teachers can be married – and they can still wear their monastic robes.

    It’s not a rarity, but common knowledge.

    This rule doesn’t apply to students. It applies to teachers, who are regarded as someone who has something to teach. I guess you know that they do have to have realization of their minds. The level of it is not in my knowledge – and I don’t think it can be measured. Why students can’t have sexual relationships? I guess you should know that tantric sexual practices are not taught to youngsters. Older monks and nuns do receive those teachings – but they practice on the level of mind. Maybe at some point they can get married.

    I don’t think you have any idea of who Orgyen Tobgyal is. I don’t bother to spell out his qualities and gifts, because they are only words to you – and your Western ‘academic’ mind cannot accept those things anyway. It would be just another wasted argument.

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  528. And in response to Mary’s article in the Guardian “Lama sex abuse claims call Buddhist taboos into question” http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/jul/01/lama-sex-abuse-sogyal-rinpoche-buddhist
    Tenpal writes on the website http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/sogyal-rinpoche-and-the-silence-of-the-tibetan-buddhist-community-and-the-dalai-lama/
    “Here it is note worthy to see that the article starts with an image of a faithfully prostrating nun and an image capture “An exiled Tibetan Buddhist nun prostrates around the main temple and the residence of Tibetan spiritual leader the Dalai Lama.” In the light of the headline I feel this to be manipulative. First of all the Dalai Lama is not abusing anybody and also there is no report that nuns are abused. I wonder what drove The Guardian to follow such an tabloid approach …”

    Tiger Lily, the information is all online and really needs to be addressed online. This isn’t a personal issue between Mary and I. It’s an issue between the truth and the truth. We need to have the courage to air everything.

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  529. “No. You just don’t know Tibetan Buddhist culture very well”.

    And how long did you live with Tibetans bella? Do you speak Tibetan? Have Tibetan firends?How long have you been a Tibetan Buddhist? Have you studied Tibetan culture academically?

    I think we all know the answers to these questions.

    “What does it mean to have the robes of a monk” It means either:
    You are a celibate monk
    You like to create the impression that you are different
    You want people to think you are a celibate monk

    The sun does not shine out of Orgyen Tobgyals butt, as many of the monks he has inflicted his Tibetan style of tough love will tell you-He may well know his own mind but that doesnt mean he is a nice guy. In fact, he is another remnant of that nepotistic culture of abuse called the tulku system, something particularly rife it would seem amongst that branch of the family.

    And if Orgyen Tobgyal is married, why doesnt it appear anywhere in the publictity about him? Wake up girl. They are milking us all with their phoney robes.at least the Sakya Trizin wears the laymans robe and speaks openly of his marriage

    “It’s not about pretending something or hiding something, but being humble and not showing off any of your realization”
    This is a ridiculous statement. Of course its about pretending. And wearing robes that most people think mean you are a spirtual celibate is neither humble nor is it an attempt to hide realization-in fact, its the complete opposite

    You have the dust of spiritual adulation in your eyes girl

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  530. I already sent this link or some other from the Google Groups searches:

    Google Groups

    http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan/search?group=alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan&q=sogyal+&qt_g=Search+this+group

    This story is a long one and the main player for decades has been MF.

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  531. Drolma, your hunch of MF is a correct one. It’s just outrageous, but she feels too self important to be really an honest person. That is a problem.

    I have never met her, but I have met SR. I must say that I have never heard or seen SR compromise himself nor the Dharma. For MF it’s all politics and games. I don’t know if SR is guilty or not for something, but I know MF is guilty of lies and exaggeration – and she doesn’t care at all.

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  532. “S Puppet, on March 30, 2012 at 9:13 am said:

    Maybe telling the truth about who you are and how you live your life rather than wearing monks robes to create a vision of purity and then profittng from it is?

    Isnt the whole problem that this long debate is about concerned with people pretending to be one thing while they are actually behaving like something else?

    Could this be a blind spot for you bella?Looks like”

    No. You just don’t know Tibetan Buddhist culture very well.

    What does it mean to have the robes of the monk?
    What does it meant to have the robes of the ngakpa?

    MANY Tibetan Buddhist teachers who work in monasteries continue to wear monks’ robes, even though many of them are married. That is no secret. It’s just a custom – or there are deeper reasons for it. The reasons are not what you expect.

    Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche said that he is married, but he doesn’t want to change his clothes into Ngakpa clothes because he doesn’t want to pretend that he has stabilized Rigpa, that he can remain in the nature of the mind. The relative or social status of your relationship is far less important than the ‘status’ of your realization.

    It’s not about pretending something or hiding something, but being humble and not showing off any of your realization.

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  533. I agree Drolma with your assertion that we need to move forward with total transparency, honesty and integrity. Perhaps it will be best if you address your queries about MF’s articles directly to her so that she can reply to you herself.
    I think if you were both able to sit down together in the same room you would find you share the same aims and could have a lively and constructive conversation!
    Mary’s been working on her own for such a long time. It’s only relatively recently that others are now coming forward to join forces and much of their decisions to do so have been based on the information she has gathered regarding SR and Rigpa. Ofcourse she will have a personal slant but I have no doubt that her intentions to safeguard the well-being of potential victims of abuse are founded upon genuine concern and sense of responsibility.
    It would indeed be good if we could link up in the real world. I know other people who are interested to form a group similar to the German one and we really should be networking globally, don’t you think?
    Some while back, Vera posted an email address to connect up with her.
    That could be a start. Vera shares many of your ideas.

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  534. I believe that there is little doubt that TB lamas are sexually abusing students– and little doubt that SR has been and probably still is sexually abusing students. However, if we don’t move forward with these problems in total transparancy, honesty and integrety ourselves, we will not move forward. And if we are seen to be making wild and unfounded statements about situations in the TB community, we will lose the help and support we might otherwise gain of TB leaders, such as HH Dalai Lama.

    That is why I am speaking out about Mary’s need to be more careful and credible.

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  535. Or reality is a matter of personal interpretation—-shock horror!

    This tactic, of first showing disgust with ones supposed abuser and then seeking to undermine his critics legitimacy reminds me of…………Scientologists!!!

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  536. And if one googles the video clip which Mary refers to in her article “No Role for the Karmapa” it states clearly that HHDL is speaking of his work with Western Scientists when he states that HH Karmapa and Ling Rinpoche will succeed him. It is quite clear that this is NOT a statement about political succession, as Mary claims it is. She has not done her research.

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  537. Tiger Lily, that “fine line between following her Teachers and informing them of unpleasant truths” is new unchartered territory for Tibetans and I am concerned about the capability of one (Western) woman to do this. While the allegations of SR’s sexual misconduct needed to be made and she is courageous for making them and I thank her for it, I have concerns that she might be at risk of taking things too far.

    The press seem to have a way of doing this. Take the Trayvon Martin case in this country– it starts off as a necessary outrage because a man who killed a 17 year old boy was not charged– and now there are lynch calls on the internet and CNN is acting like they’re a courtroom, bringing in witnesses and showing evidence. For Mary’s sake and for the sake of Tibetan Buddhism, I think she has to be very careful of setting boundaries.

    And Mary’s views on HHDL are definitely slanted. She might be a loyal supporter of him to her personal friends, but she does not present that picture in her writings either on previous DI threads or in the press. Certainly, on this thread, because of Mary’s portrayal of His Holiness on Behind the Thangkas, there is a culture of grouping His Holiness along with the rest of Tibetan leaders who remain silent on the trouble of lama abuse– which is untrue as he has been speaking out against lama misconduct for decades– and particularly against the system which supports lama abuse. He has been busy creating a new culture in Tibetan Buddhism where a student can and should be critical of his/her teacher. This is not the culture Tibetans came to the West with and it’s a big change and he is responsible for it. He is responsible for giving us permission to criticize, a permission that saved my life years ago. That point gets missed all the time. Because abuses are so rampant amongst TB lamas, the approach His Holiness is taking seems to be the only way forward, empowering us to do what Germany has done, for example– empowering us to finally set the boundaries for safe spiritual communities.

    I think it might have been a fruitful exercise for Mary to explore publicly why HHDL thought a face to face dialogue between her and SR was a better approach when she came to Dharamsala than she and His Holiness having a conference behind SR’s back. What I have seen of His Holiness is that his approach is rarely political or strategic in a “behind the scenes way”– rather he always promotes a straightforward, honest and open approach and when human decency is pitted against political strategy, he always chooses human decency, always allows it to trump politcal expedience.

    This is most pognantly seen in a story about His Holiness’s response to Tiananmon Square. The massacre occurred during a time when the Tibetan government-in-exile was very close to obtaining a strategic meeting with the Chinese government. Such a meeting would have been the culmination of years of hard work. When His Holiness heard about the massacre, he immediately sent for his top aids and advisors. He was highly agitated and started composing a strong response to the Chinese government, condemning their actions. One of his top aids became uneasy and mentioned to His Holiness that this would undo all their efforts to meet with the Chinese. His Holiness responded by saying something to the effect that he could never hold his head up and teach love and compassion again if he didn’t stand up and speak out for those youngsters on the square.

    This has been his approach consistently, under a constand barage of Chinese attacks and slander. Even HH Karmapa won’t speak out strongly against the Chinese (perhaps because his family is still in China). HHDL is honest and straightforward, not at all the shrewd politician which Mary portrays in her piece “No Role for the Karmapa.” Nor have I ever seen, during my years as a Kagyu practitioner, HH Karmapa ever angling for political position– believe me, he’s very busy with his work as spiritual leader in a lineage frought with trouble.

    Of course, these were opinion pieces in the Guardian and Mary is entitled to her opinions, but she needs to own them. And my concern is that her opinions will and have informed her perception of the truth. If she is going to continue walking this new unchartered territory, she needs to be absolutely honest with herself and absolutely careful with her facts or she’ll lose the support of the Tibetan Buddhist community. Tall order for any person, for sure.

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  538. Drolma, your post about your concerns regarding MF’s credibility slipped in whilst I was posting mine. Consequently I have only just read it.
    I know MF personally and I have to say she is one of the most honest, courageous women I have met. She is ever a loyal supporter of HH The Dalai Lama and devoted to the Tibetan Buddhist Teachings.
    For a long time she has had to tread the fine line between following her Teachers and informing them of unpleasant truths. Something very very difficult and painful to do. I greatly respect her for this. More than anyone she has exposed the sham pseudo Tantric behaviour of some Lamas and passionately supported the genuine ones.
    Indeed she is also a professional journalist and like all journalists has a strict deadline to keep.
    I can vouch for her integrity. I guess there will always be inaccuracies in reporting any story. But her heart is good and she is fighting on the same side as you!

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  539. “It is really amazing to me how, in those very few occasions when my personal experience converges with a journalistic story, I always find inaccuracies”
    Then you need to get out more.

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  540. Thanks, Tiger Lily, I guess confusion has its uses, if we stay open and honest and don’t hold on too tight to our passing positions.

    In regards to xDakini’s question, Is it ever OK for a lama to have sexual relations with his/her student? If one looks critically, there’s only one answer. You only have to weigh up the small benefit to maybe one very gifted student capable of having a true tantric union with his/her lama against the far reaching harm to many students who are misled through sexual encounters with their teachers. Small benefit because it is only one person who is capable of moving forward without it, far reaching harm because it is many and these many are likely to be turned away from spiritual progress. The harm far outweighs the benefit.

    I have just come upon the book “Sex and the Spiritual Teacher: Why it happens, when it’s a problem and what we can all do” by Scott Edlestein. His approach is that we need to move beyond the allegation stage to the stage of creating safety in our spiritual communities.

    That is certainly where our discussions need to be headed I think. We need to develop a culture that says NO, it is not OK, it is NEVER OK. The same culture we have in doctors’ and therapists’ offices.

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  541. Dear Drolma, Thanks for the above link and your excellent comments on that website. Well done. It is amazing how you’ve turned round your earlier confusion by facing up to and understanding the causes, and can now speak with such lucid insight.
    Both you and Tenpel are taking this discussion in a positive direction.
    One that I feel sure in time will have far-reaching effects.

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  542. In the spirit of objective, critical inquiry supported by many on this thread, I have some concerns regarding Mary Finnigan’s credibility.

    I have been reading some articles by Mary in the Guardian and I have some concerns. In her article entitled The Buddhist Organizations that are Thriving During the Debt Crisis http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/nov/18/buddhism-debt-crisis she makes the statement that after HH Karmapa visited his monastery in Woodstock, NY in 2008, they had made enough money “to embark on an extensive building project.”

    I actually worked in the front office of that monastery from 2002-2004 and I can verify without doubt that the extensive building project was well under way before His Holiness visited in 2008, having begun shortly after I left in 2004. Most of the project has been financed by wealthy donors and monastery debt.

    Mary then goes on to list the organizations that ask little or nothing for teachings and meditation instructions, including Tibetan, Zen, Theravadan etc. She leaves out HH Dalai Lama who teaches for free in Dharamsala and takes nothing from the proceeds of his teachings abroad.

    (Often journalists say more by what they leave out than by what they put in.)

    I also have serious questions about her interpretation of HH Dalai Lama’s decision to step down as temporal leader of Tibet in the article entitled No Role For the Karmapa http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/may/26/karmapa-dalai-lama.
    She clearly had not read fully His Holiness’s statements on why he was stepping down and she disregarded the fact that he has been steering the Tibetan community towards complete democratic reform for many years. Instead she interpreted the changes as a blow to HH Karmapa, who, she said, was expecting to fill HH Dalai Lama’s shoes as regent when he died.

    Mary referred to a video in which HH Dalai Lama spoke to HH Karmapa and Ling Rinpoche, telling them that they would “carry on his work when he died.” I saw that video clip and it was pretty clear to me that His Holiness was speaking of his work in the world both secular and spiritual– anyone who has followed that work would know that very little of it has been political and from the early 60s, His Holiness has been working towards a completely democratic government for Tibet.

    While I don’t believe that Mary has specific inaccuracies in this later piece as she has with the first piece, she has left important interpretations out and this is a disturbing demonstration of her personal slant in viewing topics to do with Tibetan Buddhist leaders. Perhaps one could say that they are justified, but for me, this calls into question the complete authenticity of her journalistic work elsewhere.

    It is really amazing to me how, in those very few occasions when my personal experience converges with a journalistic story, I always find inaccuracies.

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  543. The website which SPuppet referred to earlier has taken a sound approach to these troubles, I think. They are addressing the foundational question which xDakini asked many entries ago, which is: Is it OK for a lama to have sexual relations with students? Here is what the website: http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/sogyal-rinpoche-and-the-silence-of-the-tibetan-buddhist-community-and-the-dalai-lama/
    wrote a few days ago:

    “Update March 28, 2012

    “I added documents related to the Geshe Michael Roach controversy. Though Roach was a fully ordained monk and Sogyal Rinpoche is a lay person and not a monk, in the glorious past of Tibet masters who shook the faith of people restored it my performing extraordinary powers and miracles which proved their tantric realizations. This is the advice Lama Zopa Rinpoche gave to Geshe Michael Roach. (see page 16-18 in Lama Replies) A more recent example is the story of a Gelug lama at the time of the Thirteenth Dalai Lama, he felt he can do the sexual tantric rites and asked the Dalai Lama for permission. The Dalai Lama answered him to prove his powers, and it is transmitted that this lama did it by making knots into Yak horns. Of course these are examples from the Gelug school of Tibetan Buddhism but even if one looks on the root example of the Nyingma school: Padmasambhava is said to have performed a lot of miracles and his tantric consort, Yeshe Tsogyal, was a female tantric teacher who also composed tantric texts, but this seems to be quite dissimilar to a situation where a lama has “a host of ‘Dakinis’” who are all very new to the Dharma and where it is quite unlikely that they have the necessary spiritual experience to be qualified tantric consorts. I don’t know if Padmasambhava had more than one qualified tantric consort but it helps to compare the examples of past glorious masters, their background, actions and situations, with that of present Tibetan Buddhist masters to come to certainty.

    Also according to the tantric rituals usually a qualified tantric consort is either pointed out by a qualified lama or by dreams with special signs at a certain point of one’s spiritual development. Such a case is usually treated with great care. A Nyingma lama I know who meditated for 17 years in retreat with one meal a day and two hours sleep a day attained higher realizations including clairevoyance. He was just skin and bones after he had accomplished his retreat, and most people who saw him were thinking ‘he is going to die’. After he had attained high realizations his female tantric consort was pointed out to him by his master H.H. Dujom Rinpoche, and she had herself high realizations (including being able to cure very sick people). This Nyingma lama spoke of her with greatest respect and in awe. (This is very different to what Mary Finnigan reports about how violently and disrespectfully Sogyal treats his Western ‘Dakinis’.) Also, so far I didn’t hear that the lama who is qualified to rely on a tantric consort chooses tantric consorts himself and has a host of them (of course Ole Nydahl does this but I don’t think he is the right example). As far as I know in the case of the great Nyingma sage H.H. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche he had to be forced to rely on a qualified tantric consort, and it were his masters who pointed out the right person. In the Vajrayogini rite it is utter complex to find the right tantric consort and one has really to do a lot of rituals and prayers to find her after having accomplished extended practices. All of this seems to be very dissimilar to what Sogyal Rinpoche is doing.

    It is said that Milarepa relied on the goddess Tseringma as his consort.”

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  544. “Believe me, it took a lot for that one to sink in and it killed me, it really did.”

    And the cause? Could it be irrational expectations based on lack of initial objective investigation? Sounds awfully familiar doesnt it?

    Anyway,well done for finally seeing truth!

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  545. And is Sogyal married now? Since this would represent final compliance with HHs instruction (always good to follow the gurus instruction, regardless of how belatedly) one wouldve thoughr it wouldve been widely publicised?????

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  546. Maybe telling the truth about who you are and how you live your life rather than wearing monks robes to create a vision of purity and then profittng from it is?

    Isnt the whole problem that this long debate is about concerned with people pretending to be one thing while they are actually behaving like something else?

    Could this be a blind spot for you bella?Looks like

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  547. Maybe Dzongsar Khyentse’s marriage is not part of essential Dharma teachings?

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  548. “I don’t give a damn about Dzongsar Khyentse’s marriage” Me either. But why keep it quiet???

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  549. Sorry, it’s only been 10 plus years without a drink.

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  550. Bella, I started drinking out of despair, pure despair. Finally it had sunk into my thick skull that Sogyal Rinpoche, the lama I believed to be a perfect Buddha, was not only quite unkind, but he, and the organization he represented, had no interest whatsoever in helping me practice the Buddha Dharma. Believe me, it took a lot for that one to sink in and it killed me, it really did.

    I haven’t had a drink in 12 years, after taking my lay vows.

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  551. I don’t give a damn about Dzongsar Khyentse’s marriage? Why do you?

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  552. Hey bella, is Sogyal now married?Or is he keeping it quiet like DKR is his marriage?

    Alternative Perspective-Some years ago, Trungpa was giving a talk. Afterwards, a lady asked “Isnt that just your point of view?” “Madam” replied Trungpa, I dont have a point of view”

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  553. How did your devotion story go Drolma? How come you ended up drinking? I don’t understand.

    I did a lot of practice on one retreat, became very angry about something SR said. He hit a point of childhood trauma in me. I became very defensive. In the evening I was tired of my anger and let go off it.

    At that moment the vast love experience started.

    I didn’t feel any dependency toward anybody at that moment. Not toward SR, not toward friends or any man. There was no object to grasp on to. It was not ordinary experience of ‘being in love with somebody’ since there was complete freedom. My mind still asked questions like “what is this, where does it come from…” but the thoughts were more silent than the experience.

    I didn’t feel ANY grasping kind of devotion of the ordinary mind. I just appreciated the experience. Therefore devotion and trust – even though you are angry – are important in the process, but I don’t think they are the end result. One doesn’t end up hanging on to the lama like a junkie, but is freed from all of this.

    I think Dzongsar Khyentse says many good things about this in the movie Words of my perfect teacher. I hope you can watch it.

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  554. Bella, that devotion you speak of sounds dangerous: “devotion transcends the conceptual, limited mind – and helps to make the leap out of the limitations of the ordinary mind to the vast space which is filled with love and the rest of the aspects. Sometimes SR says it doesn’t matter if you have faith in Jesus or in Guru Rinpoche: the process is the same. You give up your own rational limited conceptual mind.”
    That was my experience, I gave up the rational mind I so needed to assess what was going on. All I can say is: man oh man, we need to really know that person we are giving up our rational mind to– and can we ever trust someone that much? Maybe in very very highest highest yoga tantra, many lifetimes away for me for sure– but even at Buddhahood, have we lost our rational mind or found its essential nature? Maybe we never need that sort of devotion?

    And, Alternative Perspective, I liked your bit about the importance of understanding Buddhism first, choosing the lama next– that really sums up a lot of the trouble. We in the West often don’t have the patience to understand Dharma well enough to make those informed decisions. I wonder if Tibetans do either?

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  555. I want to answer from my point of view:

    1. “To my impression, too much emphasis was put in the book on the important lamas with whom he states he was in touch, and too much case is made in his advertisements regarding his “high connections”.”

    For me as a spiritual seeker the book sounded truthful. It was a story about a person and this new religion to me. I had read all kinds of books, but that book was the first one I thought: this book talks about a real thing. It doesn’t have strange ornaments, intellectualizing, conceptualization, no new age, no manipulation, no strange rules… It came from the heart.

    2. “I also question myself, why it is important for a master to have many students, whether it is a good thing from a Dharma point of view.”

    I think SR is here to bring Dharma to the West, in a stable way and permanently. He is not only considering one life time. It’s a vision in order to ‘save Dharma’ or better to say benefit beings, many beings – and also beings in the future.

    Because he is quite a strong character, that makes people think of him as egoist. I don’t think he is that shallow.

    I remember a retreat where SR prayed (and invoked the presence of the Buddhas) that I felt like believed they were there. It could be just my wish or what ever. It doesn’t really matter. I just know he prays a lot and strongly. He has great faith in the Buddhas. Almost like his faith also makes me, the ordinary critic and troubled doubting person, believe. I have never had that feeling in Church or in the presence of any priest. My experience is not the point. The point is that he believes strongly in the Buddhas. He has no other life: it’s all about Dharma.

    3. “But if that were true, why SR, for example, did not read the minds of the unprepared students who deserted him, or who have spoken of his alleged abuses. The same question goes, for example, for Dalai Lama, who seemed not to be aware of the abuses of the Japanese leader of the Aum sect, Shoko Ashara.”

    It’s a good question. We also do not know a thing that has gone through his mind while he has had relationships with said women. We have no idea what he has meant with any of those women.

    4. “people from the European culture who reject Christianity without reading the Bible at least once or some basic philosophical works of the important philosophers. If they read them without prejudice, they would discover that ideas and practices presented in the conferences of some masters for which they give a lot of money are to be found out in those texts”

    Biggest difference in the Middle Eastern world view and the Asian is that Middle Eastern religions emphasize that all the good comes from an outside source. Tibetan Buddhism offers methods to realize your basic nature. In Christianity it depends on the mercy of the God: he appears to you or he doesn’t.

    One priest said: you (the people in the Church) are God’s chosen people. That made me really angry: God would choose people he wants to save. Just another sentence that made me want to leave the building and those people as fast as possible.

    A friend of mine got her training in a Christian school to become a nurse. In her graduation ceremony the priest said: “Now you will fight against the evil. There is true evil out there and you know it.” Another madman, I thought. And that man is famous priest. I just don’t share their world.

    5. “For example, they may guide themselves in judging SR based on their dreams with him, as a sign of personal connection or message, as a kind of telepathy. ”

    Tibetan Buddhism has an emphasize on issues that were present in all cultures prior to present technology and capitalism religion of reason and ‘rationality’. Tibetan Buddhism doesn’t reject those things. Since I also have had some strange experiences and I am open to the world of intuition and imagination, I find it more appealing than the cold world of calculations and money. I believe anyone who has become religious or ‘found Christ, God or who ever’, has had some strange experience. It’s not a rational choice.

    Some one told me recently a ghost story. He used to live in a house where strange things happened. A man who killed his wife by strangling her with a pillow was a ghost there. He never threatened men, but every time a woman slept there, the woman woke up into the feeling she can’t breath. At times music was playing in the house even though no radio was on. Western rational culture rejects these stories because the rational thinking has it’s limits.

    I believe my dreams about SR are projections of my mind. I analyze them in that way. I don’t believe they were sent to my mind by some angels or fairytale creatures. Tibetan Buddhism is about the mind, the mind is the key. One studies the mind. One can realize the nature of the mind – that is said to be the fundamental nature of everything. Mind is very important in Tibetan Buddhism. The difference between the concept of mind and heart between West and Tibetan culture is that in Tibet mind = heart + mind together. Maybe that is why the devotion is very important in Tibetan Buddhism: the devotion transcends the conceptual, limited mind – and helps to make the leap out of the limitations of the ordinary mind to the vast space which is filled with love and the rest of the aspects. Sometimes SR says it doesn’t matter if you have faith in Jesus or in Guru Rinpoche: the process is the same. You give up your own rational limited conceptual mind. At least I understand it that way.

    I have never heard that only meditation could heal anyone. I did hear that other practices or maybe prayer has caused someone to heal. The main point in the Buddhist world view is that mind is the creator of samsara and nirvana. There is power in the mind, maybe also power to heal. Western medicine also supports this idea.

    6. “Chances are that a master who does not enjoy fully the pleasures of life to be more likely detached by them than a master who enjoys them fully, as it seems to be the case of the SR, no matter if he is abusing sexually or otherwise his students. And what can a master teach about detachment if his methods have not worked in his case?”

    In the documentary Words of My Perfect Teacher the film director Bertolucci told Dzogsar Khyentse Rinpoche had said something like this: “not only to reject everything, but also to reject the rejection — that means: embracing everything!” I guess there lies the difference between sutric and tantric practice.

    You seem very sure to know SR – even though you’ve never met him.

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  556. Thank you also for your comments to my comments, Drolma!
    I agree with you that, in general, it is missing the study of the original texts from Pali Cannon attributed to Buddha (or even of the original Bardo Thodol) for a comparison with the later commentaries. It seemed always strange to me that, first, some students of some Tibetan lamas (from what I could find out) are interested or encouraged to read commentaries or later interpretations or supposedly new transmissions or revelations in the tantra forms, and not the source texts (that now are translated in English and other languages in a considerable measure). For me, it is as if one thinks to know and be able to judge a novel only by reading what critics had to say about it. The invoked reasons I heard are that the initial source is too long, too complicated to understand for a beginner, who may understand it in a wrong way, or inadequate for the present contexts (that supposedly would require the upaya means of the tantras and contemporary commentaries). In my case, it was the other way around (the sensed light from the Buddha’s sutras shines brighter than that of the so much revered introductory books in Buddhism from our days), as it is with the case when I can enjoy the simple pages of a story, without the sophisticated commentaries of some critics, who seem to betray the charm and the lived truth of the commented book. Furthermore, it is a strange start to me for a Buddhist student, no matter her/his interest for the pure practice part not the study part, because, to my knowledge and understanding, in the original texts, a master is to be chosen and tested by a future student by comparing the behavior of the master with the teachings of the Dharma in the way it was transmitted to the Buddha’s followers. So, a student must know first Dharma in its original form in order to commit her/himself to a master to help him to interpret and apply it better and trust his/her version of it. It seems to be a bit of a vicious circle, but, still, in that way, one can find out obvious contradictions between the teachings of a master and the teachings attributed to Buddha. According to my impression, in the present day and in the Tibetan Buddhism, that method of checking was replaced with the “accreditation method”, when a master is accredited by another master, and so on, in a long line of transmissions or recognized tulku reincarnations. So, the student responsibility appears to vanish, on account that she/her is in no place to judge. The most important criterion to be checked by her/him is the prestige of a master or of his friends or supporters, who accredited him more or less in a public, testable, or formal context, or only by hearsay and according to the master’s own testimony. Another possible reason for ignoring the Buddha’s transmitted words is the belief that Dharma changes historically so much so that its versions from the past times are of little relevance for the present times (as it was recently discussed regarding the vessel issue). But then, in my view, the idea of Dharma could be so diluted that any teaching could be named to be Dharma, if its author wants to name it Dharma in a context adjusted form.

    As regards the narcissistic personality of the SR, as an outsider, I could tell my reasons that make me to have doubts regarding this aspect after reading his most important book, and the advertisements for his conferences/teachings. To my impression, too much emphasis was put in the book on the important lamas with whom he states he was in touch, and too much case is made in his advertisements regarding his “high connections”. It would have been maybe better to let the ideas from the book to speak for themselves. Praising your teachers too much is not always a sign of humility, but also a sign of a strategy to gain an accreditation not cover by your own value. It is as if a child could be judged exclusively by the value of her/his parents. I think that, as in the day to day world, a spiritual son could disappoint a spiritual father later in life or after the father is dead. It is not sufficient for a person to legitimate oneself through her/his genealogy, but also through her/his own behavior. Also, SR seems to authorize advertisements of his conferences that are, to my taste, not at all very humble, praising too much his international prestige as the author of the so successful book, the bestseller “The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying”. It is like a marketing strategy for a shop item. But the selling success may not be a guaranty of the value of the sold item, quite the contrary in some cases, as it is the case of some popular TV shows.

    I also question myself, why it is important for a master to have many students, whether it is a good thing from a Dharma point of view. A mass transmission is in no place to guarantee the quality of the teaching, because, lacking the feedback, the teacher does not know very well what the students understand. If students are supposed not to talk to others about the Buddhist teachings out of fear of not spoiling them in the minds of their audience, it seems to me that the same error is made by a master if he is not able to check the understanding of his disciples. Furthermore, quantity is not quality, as it is commonly known. I am aware that some students believe that their master can paranormally read their mind, or the mind of other people. But if that were true, why SR, for example, did not read the minds of the unprepared students who deserted him, or who have spoken of his alleged abuses. The same question goes, for example, for Dalai Lama, who seemed not to be aware of the abuses of the Japanese leader of the Aum sect, Shoko Ashara.

    The fact that a teacher has thousands of followers says nothing about his spiritual realization or quality. The level of the education or intelligence of the followers, also, may not be a sure sign of the teacher’s quality. There are a lot of Western highly trained people in their profession that are religiously, psychologically and philosophically “illiterate”, i.e. without much knowledge and a good understanding of the main and basic religious, psychological or philosophical texts (or the current state of the knowledge in those respects), even the ones essential for their culture. For me it was always strange that, for example, there are people from the European culture who reject Christianity without reading the Bible at least once or some basic philosophical works of the important philosophers. If they read them without prejudice, they would discover that ideas and practices presented in the conferences of some masters for which they give a lot of money are to be found out in those texts. But, as in the marketing, in the spiritual domain, the packages seem to sell the product and to fascinate the clients. Many ideas and practices presented as ancient wisdom to be transmitted in very selective manner could be discovered by a person if she/he introspects herself/himself long enough. After all, they were discovered in that way by more primitive people before, the masters who started a tradition. Furthermore, they are currently integrated in many psychotherapeutic systems. I think that the success of many lamas in the West is based on the eagerness of the spiritual seekers for shortcuts in the spiritual paths or therapeutic paths, as some Tibetan teachings are advertised, even though the opposing message is also supported in the teachings, that still, that path is long and that it does not offer psychotherapy for the psychologically troubled people. But the Western disciples hear only what they want to hear, the first message, in spite of all the warnings given afterwards. Lacking a religious and psychological culture, they easily build false expectations. Then, some are disappointed that the expected marvelous change was not as fast as they expected. It is almost an example of double bind communication (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind ).

    It seems to me that a clearer example of double bind language in the Tibetan teachings of some lamas is the position toward paranormal powers or events. Although it is explicitly stressed, as in the original Buddhist texts, that paranormal powers are not important and are to be ignored, implicitly or more or less explicitly, it is encouraged the reliance on them or the disciples’ desire for them is tolerated, if not even encouraged (maybe because of the tradition and its fantastic legends regarding the feats of some important figures of the Buddhist religion). For example, I found out that there are claims in Rigpa that meditation in their organization may cure cancer, that there are cases cured in that way in the Rigpa. Also, divinations made in the Tibetan Buddhism do not seem to follow the rule of not giving importance to the paranormal phenomena. A kind of magical thinking seems to lurk at least in the mind of the disciples. For example, they may guide themselves in judging SR based on their dreams with him, as a sign of personal connection or message, as a kind of telepathy. The karma or the rebirth as a tulku of a lama are also ideas linked to the paranormal in my opinion, as they are not currently scientifically established.

    I was wondering also why some people, no matter their intelligence and culture, may be drawn in a dependence relationship with a spiritual master. I have no definitive answers, and the topic is for a book to be discussed about (for a very short synthesis of a psychological perspective over the cult phenomena, see http://www.anzjft.com/pages/articles/400.pdf). But here are some of my ideas in that respect.

    From an introspective point of view, every time a person wishes something too much (as in the Buddhist philosophy), even a spiritual purpose, she/he is in danger to be coned by someone who knows how to exploit the vulnerabilities of an intense desire, especially if that person is naïve in the spiritual domain, or, out of the goodness of the heart, lack of experience, or reliance only in her/his own intelligence, trust people unconditionally. Furthermore, when people want something badly, they lose easily their patience, and they want that thing very soon. And if someone promises them that he knows the secret to obtain that thing without too much trouble and in a fast manner … In the second place, people become less alert to the signs, cues indicating that what is offered is not the thing they want after all, and they tend to ignore them, or are inclined to illusion themselves that the thing in which they invested so much or the only thing they could manage to found out for their imperious need is an inappropriate one, that it is not able to satisfy that need. It is like a person in a desert chasing an illusory oasis, or satisfying one’s hungry with an inappropriate food or one’s sexual needs in a perverse way.

    Sometimes, it is ironical that some people, who are very proud of their judgment and intelligence, not being satisfied with what ordinary people have, believe, or enjoy, and chasing after higher ways of fulfillment, fall prey to a abusive relationship with a spiritual master, as if the life would give them an opportunity to humble themselves. The sad part is that, many times, they do not become aware of this lesson and learn nothing from it.

    I think that in the Tibetan Buddhism an abusive relationship with a spiritual master is favored by the belief that once a person is spiritually realized at a certain level, she/he may never lose this achieved status, as if that is a status gained for eternity, and only an improvement is possible, and never a regress. So, once a master is authorized by another master, than it is supposed that no one should question him any more. By comparison, for example, in the Christian religion, it is believed that a saint is a saint only after his/her death, that she/he can fall into temptation any time and sin until his/her final breath, that no one is perfectly immune to sin (in the sense of missing the target) in this life. And it is recognized that the kind of sin by which a highly spiritually evolved monk may be the most tempted any time is the spiritual pride, being enchanted about his high spiritual level. By recognizing in Jesus the only teacher for every one and through the requirement that even the most important persons in an orthodox Christian hierarchy to confess themselves to another person, I think that the risks of that side-slipping are decreased in a certain degree. Instead, as it seems to me, a lama is responsible to no one other than his consciousness and he may be very tempted to become spiritually arrogant, and full of vanity, especially given the way his students are required to reorient their attention and entire life toward him.

    In my opinion, a master, if he is humble, should not be bothered if a student is having doubts about him and asks him directly about an occurred issue with his behavior. The only person who should be theoretically hurt is the disciple because she/he doubts when she/he shouldn’t. But if she/he already has doubts, an open discussion would benefit them both, eventually dispelling those doubts.

    I think, a master should be judged mainly not on how much sacrifice demands from his disciples (even in the name of dissolving their ego), but on how much he is willing to sacrifice his life out of love for his disciples (not only symbolically, but even his real, physical life, his personal needs). If a master gains something personally from giving teachings (money, a live without material needs and hardships, sexual favors, etc.), than one cannot be sure about the purity of his teachings. He may, for example, change the teachings in order to please the audience, or gain more audience. Giving Buddhist teachings may be seen as any other profession, a very glamorous one in our days, so it does not seem to me to be properly a sacrifice made from the part of the lama, as sometimes it is stated to be. In that way, an international successful singer, touring the world, also sacrifices herself/himself. Chances are that a master who does not enjoy fully the pleasures of life to be more likely detached by them than a master who enjoys them fully, as it seems to be the case of the SR, no matter if he is abusing sexually or otherwise his students. And what can a master teach about detachment if his methods have not worked in his case? It is true that avoiding those pleasures does not mean automatically detachment, that avoidance may be a subtle way of attachment or that renunciation may be made out of a subtle spiritual pride. But, still, renunciation is a start, a first sign of detachment, although not a sufficient one, as Buddha himself taught. That is why a monk is more credible as a master from the start. The ideas of mystical union, or of a higher level of spiritual realization, even higher than the one of the historical Buddha, when one is playing with fire without being burnt (as SR may pretend to be his case), or that of the spiritual realization by the exhaustion and disillusion with life pleasures (by enjoying them to the fullest, passing from an extreme to the other, from sinfulness to sainthood, in the hypothesis that those extremes are linked) may be easily distorted and used for more worldly goals, in an abusive manner, willingly or unwillingly, by some masters.

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  557. SPuppet, the following statement has been crossed out on the website where it was originally posted: ” It’s note worthy to see that while the video gives a full account of what His Holiness said the manuscript of the speech at the Official website of HH the Dalai Lama has been “cleared” of his frank and critical statements”

    They crossed it out following my comment to the website about its inaccuracy. I think we can call our discussion about this concluded.

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  558. Again, well said Drolma

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  559. Bella, I’d like to clarify my relationship with Sheila. Unlike Sheila, I have strong opinions regarding SR’s methods with students, methods that I feel are unnecessarily abusive and abrasive. This I have experienced and seen for myself. Also, unlike Sheila, I believe that Mary Finnigan and DI have done their job by exposing these allegations of sexual abuse. This is why we have a free press in a democracy.

    Like Sheila, however, I believe that we need to be very cautious how we proceed from here. This should not turn into a lynching. We need to be able to take a wider perspective now and let the courts do their jobs, if that is to be the outcome. If there are insufficient funds or will for a legal outcome, then the discussion needs to be about the empowerment of Western students and our need for more equalitarian and transparent Dharma centers in the west.

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  560. His Holiness did not read from a script when he spoke and the written statement was not a transcript of his speech because it was written before the speech. They are two separate statements, with differing content. Nothing was sanitized.

    Bella, we don’t know how much of Behind the Thankas is true– e.g. we can’t rely on blind faith in either SR or MF can we? Only a system set up to discover truth, such as the courts, however flawed, can finally figure all this out.

    And Bella, as for my stubborn persistence with our disruptive friend above, I have been smelling a rat and I want to understand better what is going on– otherwise, I totally agree with your statements about the wisdom in ignoring him (isn’t it nice that we can agree about some things????? Isn’t that the whole point in the Buddha Dharma, nothing is all one way or the other, even our disagreements?)

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  561. Still: the Behind the Thankas script by MF is utter BS. It’s useless to make your judgement from that crap. Also referring to people who take her seriously is as pointless.

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  562. Well said Drolma-if you want to see how the script was santized, watch the speech-there are pieces missing

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  563. Damn, Shugden just seemed like a good explanation finally for your absurd vendetta against me. Have to scratch that one and figure something else out. Sorry, folks if I’ve misled anyone about the website, but my research re HH Dalai Lama is accurate– there are two separate statements from His Holiness; there was no laundering of a manuscript. I was particularly concerned about this allegation because I am aware that His Holiness tries to be meticulous about transparency, especially because of the Chinese.

    And as for his silence re SR: What I’ve seen and heard looks to me like it could be a slippery slope for him to start accusing lamas, when there are quite a few who are misbehaving and little in the way of proof. Refusing to teach at Rigpa when invited would be akin to accusing SR– and then he would have to refuse other invitations as well. And then there’d be a lot of complaints, e.g. you refused my invitation but not his etc. His Holiness could become very busy with all of it, trying to untangle everybody’s business and all the allegations. It could become a fulltime job, a little bit of a snarling mess and perhaps not beneficial to beings when there’s little established proof. Proof is what’s needed with SR for sure.

    And I do like the German approach a lot as well. That could really address a lot of the troubles, a way of putting Western boundaries on our Dharma centers.

    And I still think it could be helpful for abused women to bring their stories to His Holiness, still think it would be a positive method of bringing some resolution and healing.

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  564. “FYI readers, the entire section above was taken from a New Kadampa Tradition website.”

    FYI Drolma, the “above” was actually taken from an anti Shguden, anti NKT, pro DL site, something anyone can see for themselves if they go to the link. Your ‘research’ is not very well researched

    The fact that the piece is critical of HH not speaking out does not mean the author is the DLs enemy, he just doesnt understand the hypocrisy of supporting a teacher who is widely recognized as a sexual abuser-or do you suggest we suspend all judgement?

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  565. Clever trick Drolma. attempting to curry favour by claiming I am an ally of Shugden worshippers. Sadly not true, Its a bit like a bella here suggesting that Sogyals critics are working for the Chinese-pathetic ploy, and not the first time this particular cards been played/ A totally ridiculous claim.

    I have recieved numerous teachings from HH. I just dont suspend judgement whenever he says anything=I question, make my own decision based on scripture, logic, reasoning-just as he advises

    Get it in your head-I dont like people claiming abortion is acceptable according to the Buddhai’s teaching and I believe anyone who thinks they are someones ‘disciple’; when theyve never even met the guy is delusional. In your own way, you are undermining the very existence of the authentic path and its doctrines by making such claims and I therefore respond=Because I am a traditionalist AND a fundamentalist, where fundamentalism is adherence to the fundamentals of the Buddhas path and teachings. Something wrong with that or do you think we should change the dharma to fit with more social mores? What next: becuase there are so many harmful beings, we should abandon the precept against harming others?

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  566. All lamas I have met join against Shugden.

    It’s just a small group of people who worship Shugden that is not a Dharmic spirit. It is said to be a wordly spirit and people ‘practice’ it in order to gain money. I’ve seen the gray smoke statue once in Italy. Ugly thing.

    Chinese support all Shugden worshipers, for a reason that has nothing to do with human decency or Dharma.

    It’s a bit strange if Mary Finnigan has approached Shugden practitioners with her worries… on the other hand it’s not strange. Anything goes. Maybe the Chinese pay her pension?

    Because of the constantly aggressive way of discussion I have given up discussions with SPuppet / JB / Anonymous and so forth a long time ago. I once had a boyfriend like that who created endless arguments of trivial issues … got tired of it when I recognized the behavioral pattern. He went on arguing with Shiela and now with you Drolma, because you bother.

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  567. And to clarify one point made in the above statement from SPuppet (taken from the NKT website), there was NO doctoring of any of His Holiness’s statements to the global Buddhist community. There was a written statement, written on November 25 (published on his website) and there was an oral statement, given on November 30 (also published in webcast on his website). There are some differences in the two statements, as would be expected. It is in the oral statement that he mentions forcibly that some of our tulkus are not behaving as they should behave. No specific tulku is named.

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  568. FYI readers, the entire section above was taken from a New Kadampa Tradition website. For those of you who don’t understand the dispute between the NKT and HH Dalai Lama, it is based completely on the grounds of the NKT’s worship of a spirit called Dorje Shugden. His Holiness has simply requested that this spirit not be propitiated as he is dangerous to the Dharma in general and His Holiness in particular. You can access statements from HH on this on his website on http://www.dalailama.com/messages#shugden

    And so I guess this is the motive of SPuppet, just another crazed Shugden worshipper, attacking me solely because I am a follower of HH Dalai Lama. For those of you who don’t know about the seriousness of the Shugden trouble, I would also like to point out that it is almost certain that the NKT were responsible for the vicious stabbing murder of three monks in Feb. 1997 near His Holiness’s residence in Macleod Ganj. One of these, Lobsang Gyatso, was known to be an outspoken critic of the NKT. A year later, a note dated March 1997 was sent to His Holiness which read: “Alas, divisioniist Da…Did you enjoy eating the three carcasses at the time of the Happy Fire Ox Losar this year? You will be treated to many more carcasses if you continue.” (Secret Lives of the Dalai Lama, Alexander Norman, p.9).

    SPuppet’s motive here on this thread, of joining forces with us, condemning SR’s behaviors, is not any dislike of abuse or violence. His tone has been consistently quite violent in fact. His motive is simply to undermine HH Dalai Lama.

    And so SPuppet missed my point about the bloodthirsty love of vegetables completely– particularly relevant here I believe. The idea is that a fundamentalist (what he calls “traditionalist”) adherence to any priniciple, high or low, without the main core values of love, compassion, forgiveness, tolerance, patience etc. has the danger of breeding violence. Examples of this exist in the Right to Life movement where murders have been committed in the name of protecting the lives of the unborn.

    I would like to propose that HH Dalai Lama, in his tireless work for these core values of human decency, has done more for the rights of the unborn– and all lives– than any rock hard, narrow traditionalist/fundamentalist waving placards (or murdering monks).

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  569. Yeah, so much for progress and preservation of the tradition. Anyway…..http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/sogyal-rinpoche-and-the-silence-of-the-tibetan-buddhist-community-and-the-dalai-lama/

    Some days ago , I was sent two links “for your website“:

    •www.theguardian/commentisfree/belief/2012/mar/09/youtube-confessional-buddhist-kalu-rinpoche
    •http://behindthethangkas.wordpress.com
    Since I had seen the video by Kalu Rinpoche and linked it already together with a forceful statement by the Dalai Lama* he gave during the concluding ceremony at the Global Buddhist Congregation in India in December 2011, and I had no time to read the suggested blog “Behind the Thankas”, and also because the blog is anonymous, I hesitated to read it. However, I had already linked the documentary In The Name Of Enlightenment. I had also sent this documentary to some people, including some journalists, Tibetologists and the German Buddhist Union, a congregation of Buddhist organisations in Germany which understands itself as an umbrella organisation for Buddhists in Germany.

    Based on scandals with respect to power and sexual abuse within Buddhism the members of the German Buddhist Union gave in April 2011 an unequivocal vote to create a Buddhist Council or authority within the German Buddhist Union which people can approach for support, advice, information or for someone who listens, and which can offer qualified support in case someone had to experience power, emotional, financial or sexual abuse. Based on this vote there formed a group within the German Buddhist Union to work out an Ethic Charta and an Ethic Council. There were already two working meetings. The meeting for working out the Ethic Charta (16.–18 March 2012) was very inspiring, and I found the contribution of the persons who participated very differentiated and clear. I felt it really as a meeting “in the spirit of the Dharma”. We had the shared conviction that sexual relationships between teachers and students lead to harm and that is is a must to avoid that. (In Germany it is illegal and chargeable if psychologists or therapists build up sexual relations with their clients, and Rutter has shown the devastating harm sexual relationships in unbalanced power situations can create for both sides. So why should Buddhist teachers who preach compassion, non-violence, the faults of desire and not harming others engage in such relationships? Some claim it would be for “the student’s benefit” and a “practice” but why then people are damaged, and feel really in pain and suffering after having been “benefited” [by often highly manipulative methods] to have sex with their teachers? In case there is an extreme rare case where there is really no harm or even benefit, one can expect that there also won’t be someone who will report about the sorrow, lamentation, suffering, distress, and agitation they have gone through.)

    Sunday I found time to read the summery of the Sogyal sage “Behind the Thankas” by Mary Finnigan. It made me utter sad.

    I find it also questionable that the Tibetan Community, including His Holiness the Dalai Lama, just don’t speak up and allow by their silence that this egomaniac, damaging behaviour by Sogyal can continue. It could be that Rigpa and their officials have been successful to spread the rumour that Sogyal would have “settled, having a woman and a child now”, and this led towards a spiritless state of mind where Buddhists and Buddhist leaders alike started to relax, thinking the old stories are past and the issue sorted out by a change of Sogyal. But it has not settled and the abuse continues. I think, it is not the time to further support this by continuing the silence. A collective silence is an action, and such an action allows the continuation of these harming actions. That’s why I would like to encourage everybody to read the report by Mary Finnigan “Behind the Thankas” and to watch the documentary In The Name Of Enlightenment. If there is an awareness that such a behaviour is unacceptable and highly damaging this could create a shift so that the continuation of it is halted and finally stopped. A Lama from France said recently that there would be court cases in France against Sogyal, if this is true and if they are successful this too could help to stop him.

    Its unacceptable for me if the spiritual friend (Kalyāṇamitra) who has been described by the Buddha of having the function to release the disciple “from being subject to aging, sickness, death, sorrow, lamentation, suffering, distress, and agitation” does the opposite, and burdens the disciple with “aging, sickness, sorrow, lamentation, suffering, distress, and agitation” in the name of Buddhism.

    For neutral academic information I recommend to write to INFORM, a renown research institution at the London School of Economics.

    * It’s note worthy to see that while the video gives a full account of what His Holiness said the manuscript of the speech at the Official website of HH the Dalai Lama has been “cleared” of his frank and critical statements

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  570. And contrary to your odd, feudal perspective on who can be a disciple of His Holiness, I suspect that there are large numbers of people in the world who share my confidence in being his student. Many of us are exiles and few of us are wasting our time squabbling or jockeying for positions close to him. Nice, isn’t it?

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  571. Actually, my decision to stay clear of squabbling Dharma centers and study exclusively with HH Dalai Lama was the sanest decision I’ve ever made.

    But in your crazed way, SPuppet, you bring up a common misperception. When I first decided to study with His Holiness, I was a little worried about missing out on all those interviews and one-to-one contacts with a lama. I was worried that His Holiness wasn’t accessible enough (for my “advanced” practice)

    Oddly, the reverse has been true. Because His Holiness has such a straightforward and honest approach, because of his emphasis on being “just a simple monk,” just another human being, he is actually more accessible than any lama I have ever had. He teaches more than most lamas do and puts all of the teachings that he can on webcast. His accessibility is not because of any telepathy or strange delusional experiences– in fact, he plays those experiences down all the time. He is accessible simply because he is accessible– he keeps his basic humanness evident all the time. He answers questions straight. I can read a book written by someone who has spent much time close to His Holiness and I too feel closer to His Holiness. That’s not delusional; that’s human warmth and kindness, with a little of the spiritual mixed in.

    On the other hand, I never really knew my lamas of the past. They were always cryptic and mysterious and dishonest. When I asked them questions, I rarely received a straightforward answer. There was always some trick I had to figure out, always something else going on.

    So, I would much prefer an honest, kind lama I couldn’t meet with personally over a dishonest, cruel lama I could meet with frequently. Perhaps when I’m a more advanced practitioner, perhaps next lifetime, I will need a face to face relationship with a lama, but for now, this is quite a suitable, sane approach. I have dropped my delusions of being some great, advanced practitioner, at least for this life, and there’s plenty to do without subjecting myself to a guru’s abuse.

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  572. “SPuppet, since you have face to face contact with His Holiness, perhaps you need to address these issues about whether or not he teaches a pure form of Buddhism directly with him”

    Where was this claim made?

    And who said this?

    ” I do trust in HH Dalai Lama… He is my teacher, my 1-on-1; his teachings help me grow and move forward on the spiritual path. I have a daily experience of warmth from his kindness”

    despite no personal contact with HH? It was Drolma! Odd. Selective.Delusional?

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  573. A Wesrerner wanted to find a Guru. He went to an monastery and his preceptor told him: “You can stay here but we have one important rule – all students observe the vow of silence. You will be allowed to speak to me once every 12 years”.
    After practicing silence and meditation for 12 long years, finally the student could say his one thing, and : “The bed is too hard.”
    After another 12 years of hard silent meditation, he had the opportunity to speak again. He said: “The food is not good.”
    Twelve more years of hard work passed. His words after 36 years of practice: “I quit.”
    His Guru quickly answered: “Good, all you have been doing anyway is complaining.”

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  574. Your response confirms that what one person percieves as the Lama’s blessing, another construes as abuse.

    It strikes me that the rpoblem lies with the Western tendency to idolize teachers rather than spending the traditional 12 years one would spend examining the teacher before entering into a tantric relaitionship with him, as was oft the case in the East. T

    Then, after a few months or years of being abused, people rush to condemn their teachers-but as we all know, all phenomena are dependent arisings-including abuse

    Shouldve checked more, I often find myself thinking

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  575. I still have not expressed my personal opinion regarding abortion.

    Anonymous/SPuppet/No Scholar: Your arrival on this thread, with your scornful and disparaging attitudes towards me, whom you presumably don’t even know, reminds me quite forcibly of a lama that I once had, the one from whom I (regrettably) received my vows. After my first interview with this lama, he belittled me so forcibly that I was reeling and ran to the nearest bottle shop for beer. I was so desperate for Dharma at that point in my life that I stayed on and subjugated myself to this lama’s scorn, derision and lack of kindness for years. The Milarepa story and my lack of self-respect kept me thinking that his attitude had something to do with Dharma. In the end, he was like a storm cloud in my life, just plain furious at me– and I never found out what I could possibly have done to deserve such contempt.

    So I thank you, SPuppet, for giving me this opportunity to assert myself against unwarranted scorn and derision, to stand up for myself without malice, with calm and self-respect.

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  576. My concern is that people who speak, teach and act in the Buddhas name are genuine followers, not perverters or polluters. Theres a lot of it
    about. Sometimes through selfish misinterpretation (Sogyal et al), sometimes accidental (liberal re-intepreters of the dharma-thats you IMO). Either way, it needs to be challenged if we are to maintain the authentic power of Dharma, the only true medicine for suffering.

    Of course, there are those who argue we need to change the dharma to fit contemporary mores. However, this is a slippery slope, the thin end of the wedge. Surely we change ourselves to suit the dharma,,not the dharma to suit ourselves. Otherwise the Buddhas teaching becomes another tool for our egos, so that we can feel comfortable with our illusion. Trungpa’s spiritual materialism perhaps?

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  577. I can’t help but smile, SPuppet: You came on this thread sounding like a psychopath, ready to commit mass murder. Now, you’re waving the sceptor of vinaya, fighting for the rights of unborn children.

    Your concern for the fetus makes me think of something Trungpa Rinpoche said many years ago about vegetarians and their “bloodthirsty love of vegetables.”

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  578. So, neither lay nor ordained may have abortions-and that leaves? is HH saying that its OK to abort for compassionate reasons as long as youre not a Buddhist?

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  579. But as per vinaya, I can definitively say that His Holiness would never advocate that it is permissable for a nun to have an abortion.

    (Or for a holder of lay vows either.)

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  580. Yes, Bella, I am thankful to SR for that, for not giving me initiations and complicating my life with vajrayana while our relationship was so problematic. Given the numbers of students he has, this is responsible of him. I have thought that frequently in the past.

    SPuppet, since you have face to face contact with His Holiness, perhaps you need to address these issues about whether or not he teaches a pure form of Buddhism directly with him.

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  581. “With care, definitive and interpretive teachings need to be discerned.”

    The vinaya and its clear instruction on abortion is definitive, not interpretive.

    I pointed to the teachings on cosmology because you made the claim that HHDL was a ‘traditionalist’. whereas he has decided to totally redefine the teachings on cosmology to accord with modern science. he is free to do this. However, like his stance on abortion, it is his teaching, not the Buddhas

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  582. “So much effort is put into those practices and so little effort is put into the main practices of loving kindness, compassion, forgiveness, tolerance, patience, generosity… you know, taming the mind and being less angry, things like that.”

    And when SR spends considerable amount of time teaching those things, he is criticized for not giving the highest teachings on a plate or for not going through piles of texts with early students. One is always unsatisfied and hungry for something else, something better.

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  583. SPuppet, as far as the Vajrayana goes, one of the first things I learned when I began studying with His Holiness in 2005 was that I was not ready to practice highest tantra. I wasn’t even close to being ready. In order to practice highest yoga tantra properly, one needs a stable realization of emptiness. I didn’t even have a sound intellectual introduction to emptiness, yet I had received many initiations and had been instructed to begin a highest tantric practice. Needless to say, my attempts at practice were confused and inept.

    If I were to single out a cause for much of the trouble in Dharma Centers today it would be the tendency to hand out initiations like lollies and the fact that students begin practicing the vajrayana before they understand its place in the overall construct of the Dharma, beginning with the Four Noble Truths– before they even understand what the Dharma is all about. Then the practice of Buddhism becomes a sort of menu of deity practice– White Tara when you’re sick, Mahakala when you’re facing troubles, Chenrezig when you’re a beginner etc. So much effort is put into those practices and so little effort is put into the main practices of loving kindness, compassion, forgiveness, tolerance, patience, generosity… you know, taming the mind and being less angry, things like that.

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  584. And in the Buddhist canon, there are references to a world with a huge Mt Meru in the middle and to the distance to the sun being a few finger widths. With care, definitive and interpretive teachings need to be discerned. With care. Narrow adherence to any teaching, particularly those of sutra and tantra can become problematic.

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  585. SPuppet, I don’t need your permission to practice tantra or study with HH Dalai Lama or come to a decision about abortion. Why are you so fired up?

    And by the way, I haven’t voiced a personal opinion about abortion.

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  586. Buddhism does not comment on air travel. On the other hand It DOES state very clearly that killing the unborn foetus is negative

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  587. I have investigated the Buddhist canon (sic-there are several) thoroughly and have found no reference to the acceptability of abortion. I asked you to provide evidence to the contrary-you have not done so.

    I have investigated the Buddhist canon thoroughly and have found no reference to the acceptability of air travel. Ergo, the use of planes is unacceptable.

    See the problem with your logic here?

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  588. In other words, your ‘one to one’ relationship with HH is non-existent.Like samsara, its just imagination-such an imaginary relationship is not a suitable basis for tantric practice-according to scripture.

    Again, you defend your personal views on abortion by stating “You really have to investigate the complete discussions and place them in the context of the Buddhist canon” I have investigated the Buddhist canon (sic-there are several) thoroughly and have found no reference to the acceptability of abortion. I asked you to provide evidence to the contrary-you have not done so.

    I repeat you cannot practice tantra without a real guru (according to tantric teachings) and there are zero references to the acceptability of abortion in the buddhist scriptures.

    You claim “I gave up your approach to Dharma years ago” Clearly, traditional relationships between guru and disciple and reliance on scripture are not features of your new ‘Buddhism’ Somehow though, I dont think this was what Yangsi Kalu was advocating

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  589. Anonymous/SPuppet, I gave up your approach to Dharma years ago. I am no longer interested in hierarchical Dharma Centers, where students chalk up lamas and seniority as if they were the main points of Dharma. (Certainly, Rigpa’s a hive of that sort of activity.)

    All the years of face-to-face interviews that I had with lamas, both high and low, only brought me greater confusion about myself, my tantric practice and Dharma in general. Now, with no position in any Dharma center, no rank as any teacher’s senior, intermediate or novice student, no position of practicing a high tantric practice, I can progress with greater sincerity and genuineness on my spiritual path. You are quite right in your accusation that I have no rank of studenthood in the inner circle of HH Dalai Lama. You are wrong in concluding that this is any impediment to my practice of Dharma. I am very happy to be free of all that stuff.

    His Holiness himself says that if I or anyone else follows his simple advice of leading a good and decent life, of practicing warm heartedness and compassion, then we will be his “best of friends”. I tell you that the warmth, wisdom and power of this message—the warmth of His Holiness—is with me always. Your disparagement of that is ignorant and very sad.

    I often remind myself of a favorite passage from His Holiness:

    “No need for temples. No need for complicated philosophy. Your own mind, your own heart, is the temple: your philosophy is simple kindness.” (HH Dalai Lama, How to Expand Love.)

    As for the abortion issue, quick snatches of info like Wikepedia aren’t going to help you understand the positions being taken by Tibetan Buddhists in regard to such modern and complex issues. You really have to investigate the complete discussions and place them in the context of the Buddhist canon as a whole in order to understand their positions. Given your venomous and disparaging attitude towards Tibetan Buddhist lamas generally, and to me particularly, it would be fruitless for me to engage in any discussion with you on that topic. As it is, we’ve already strayed far enough from the topic at hand.

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  590. Here is the preceeding passage from the DL quote you give above from wikipedia, supposedly showing that Tibetan Buddhists accept abortion

    “Abortion is generally regarded very negatively among ethnic Tibetan Buddhists.Prior to the emergence of the Tibetan diaspora in the 1950s, Tibetans do not seem to have been familiar with abortion for reasons of medical necessity, and, facing little population pressure, saw little reason to engage in what they saw as the destruction of innocent life”

    This proves that the DLs change of position is an appeal to current social mores rather than being representative of the traditional Tibetan Buddhist view.

    Strange isnt-one can be a ‘disciple’ of the DL nowadays without even being a Buddhist!

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  591. And the scriptural origin of this statement? Dont waste your time because I can assure you it doesnt exist, the Vinaya specifically condemns it, the tantras condemn it and NOWHERE does it say it is acceptable. Where Buddhists practice abortion it is due to there beriding the teachings of the Buddha to fit in with social mores, as is the case with the Dalai Lama whose teaching came from Trijang Rinpoche after the latter encountered Hinduism post diaspora.

    In short, acceptance of abortion is totally untraditional and is the result only of contemporary commentators attemting to adjust the Buddhas teaching (which even HH has argued he has no right to do) to fit in with social mores.

    Again, the Dalai lamas views on Buddhist cosmology are opposed to tradition and it is therefore totally inappropriate to refer to him as a ‘traditionalist’

    I note also that you did not answer the question concerning the frequency of your personal encountersd with the Dalai Lama.I suspect this is because these encounters exist only in your mind, as is frequently the case with people claiming to be his ‘disciples’.

    Yangsi Kalu Rinpoches advice that “spiritual truth as long as it is kept on a personal conection, a 1 to 1 conection, not a 1 to a 1000 ,cannot be corrupted” is what we are talking about here.

    For there to be proper development in Buddhism, a long term, one to one relationship with the teacher is essential, particularly when tantra is practiced.

    On the other hand, certain modern ‘teachers’ (Kelsang Gyatso of the NKT for example) claim one can maintain this ‘relationship’ through books and contemplating their meaning. This is self serving nonsense, aimed more at producing profits than prophets. For guidance and realisation to occur, a personal relationship with a teacher who understands ones qualities and shortcomings is indispensable. Enlightenment cannot be purchased, be it ‘off the peg’ or the bookshelf.

    This is not ‘just my view’; it has been the view of Buddhist masters for the last two and a half thousand years. Truth does not change dependant on society.

    Personally, I have sat at the feet of the Dalai Lama and received direct transmission of both sutra and tantra teachings from him. However, I would never have the audacity or arrogance to refer to myself as one of his ‘disciples’ since no real relationship exists between us.

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  592. HH Dalai Lama said: “Of course, abortion, from a Buddhist viewpoint, is an act of killing and is negative, generally speaking. But it depends on the circumstances.

    If the unborn child will be retarded or if the birth will create serious problems for the parent, these are cases where there can be an exception. I think abortion should be approved or disapproved according to each circumstance.”
    Dalai Lama, New York Times, 28/11/1993

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  593. If Kalu is advocating the dissolution of the monastic sangha, he is ringing the death knell for the Dharma-Lord Buddha said that as long as the vinaya exists, so too will the dharma-Would he suggest the way to get rid of abuse in the Catholic Church, we should dissolve the priesthood? Throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
    Kalu is still a young man and is not yet ready to decide on what direction the dharma should take-he is only just beginning his own personal journey and needs more life experience before admonishing others

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  594. Ur, you mean HH saying that Buddhists find abortion acceptable under circumstances isnt kao-taoing to current social mores? Which ‘traditional Buddhist scripture teaches this?Which abbot of Nalanda taught it was OK to kill the unborn child?

    HH is your 1 to 1 teacher? How many 1 to 1 interviews have you had with him over the last few years?

    As for “If a lama’s behavior looks like misconduct, speaks like misconduct and acts like misconduct, we have to conclude that it IS misconduct.” where do you stand on Marpas treatment of Mila? Or Tilo of Naropa? Are you saying these great masters were criminals?

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  595. Tiger Lily, I have a concern about DKR’s metaphor of the vessel. If a lama’s behavior looks like misconduct, speaks like misconduct and acts like misconduct, we have to conclude that it IS misconduct. We can’t be wondering if this is a new vessel and inside, the lama is still Buddhist. I think there’s a danger to that.

    I also want to observe that while many Tibetan Lamas are busy creating a Buddhist vessel for modern times, HH Dalai Lama remains quite true to traditional approaches: In fact, his advice is that we must return to the pure Nalanda tradition of Buddhism. He doesn’t say to return to the Gelug tradition, he doesn’t say be Kadampa. He says, over and over, “Tibetan Buddhism is the Nalanda tradition.” This is a very traditional, nonsectarian and ancient vessel. And oddly, it merges quite well with modern, scientific thinking.

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  596. Yes, yes, yes, Tiger Lily, I like your quote from Kalu Rinpoche a lot. And Sting sang it as well: “Men go crazy in congregation; They only get better one by one.” And thank you, because I had listened to Kalu Rinpoche’s UTube confession video and was feeling rather down about all of his troubles.
    And Bella, in answer to your question about whether I trust in the words of any teacher, that is an important question because yes, I do trust in HH Dalai Lama, I have found little in what he says to object to. He is my teacher, my 1-on-1; his teachings help me grow and move forward on the spiritual path. I have a daily experience of warmth from his kindness.

    But I am watching a further phenomena in myself to watch out for, something we all have to be careful of, which is a tendency to criticize lamas who teach differently from our own. So I apologize if I tended towards that in any way.

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  597. This from Kalu Yangsi last Tuesday:
    “….My dear friends, any system, any structure, be it material, politic or religious , first it brings hope, hapiness and stability. Then come confusion, and for sure at the end of the road corruption . It is just a matter of time. But, spiritual truth as long as it is kept on a personal conection, a 1 to 1 conection, not a 1 to a 1000 ,cannot be corrupted !! Please be wise !”)
    He has put it in a nutshell, hasn’t he?
    Possibly an essential stage on the spiritual journey is reached when we recognize the difference.

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  598. My poor English.

    Calming the mind, like in shamatha.

    – bellaB

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  599. Bella-“Problem is the skill to quieten the mind”

    as a long term student of the Nyingma teacher of Dzogchen, can you clarify where in the Dzogchen path it says its necessary to ‘quieten the mind,?

    Tiger Lily

    DKR is quite clear about the need to change the vessel. I note that he recently married. Why do you think it is that no news of this has emerged publicly? Is it something to be ashamed of or concealed? Might it result in a loss of faith amongst disciples and benefactors?

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  600. Hello BellaB. Today I watched a moving clip of DJK Rinpoche being interviewed on a Bhutanese TV station last year. The interviewer asked him what he thought about people seeking a modernization of Buddhism.
    He gave a very good reply. He said something like the Teachings of the Buddha are perfect as they are and don’t need to be changed.
    However….(he picked up his cup of water)….If the Teachings of the Buddha are like this water, you need something to drink it from, (meaning the cup). This cup will definitely change.
    One of the changes I see happening is that people will be encouraged to question, question, question. Yes that means question the Lamas,
    question what they are saying. Don’t expect them to be too perfect but neither tolerate wrongdoings which are causing harm to students.
    My critique of something written by DJK 10 years ago does not undermine my warm regard for him or belief that he can help take Tibetan Buddhism into the 21st century.

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  601. I think you can criticize lamas. I also do it, in my mind – almost all the time. Problem is the skill to quieten the mind. It’s not a problem to figure out ways of asking new questions.

    I’m just curious to know IF there is ANY teacher that you regard as more knowledgeable about Buddhism than yourselves? Buddhism is very vast and it has many contradictory teachings. Ability to see through the contrast issues and combining the view to life experience is an art.

    Criticizing someone like Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche who spent his childhood in a closed environment of a Bhutanese monastery studying probably more than most of us are able to do during our life time, combined with his vast experience in the West. It’s not that you criticize him for his knowledge, but almost as if considering him as a simpleton, when he uses humor. I do find his teachings funny and close to life, he questions many views that we Westerners and humans have – regarding lama and so on. He questions almost in the same way as you do, but because he is a lama and he uses humor, you misread him?

    All the Western students question their lama – and are troubled. Thinking that most are like sheep is really a view that has no basis in reality. SR also addresses the critical mind often in his teachings. He is not asking us to leave the brain behind, but he also questions if we find what we are looking for in the never ending critical inquiry.

    Are we then to take refuge in the analysis?

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  602. “In fact, HH Dalai Lama speaks of how some of the great Nalanda Buddhist scholars had the courage even to write critiques of their own masters.”
    Really; where?

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  603. You see, Bella, practicing Buddhism without blind faith is all about being right and being wrong, being confused and being clear– it’s about having the courage to move forward in complete honesty with ourselves. Blind faith is more like practicing ignorance; it feels comfortable to put our greater intelligence in someone else’s hands, but it doesn’t move us forward in our practice.

    In fact, HH Dalai Lama speaks of how some of the great Nalanda Buddhist scholars had the courage even to write critiques of their own masters.

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  604. Sorry, the past two anonymous postings were me, using my daughter’s computer.

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  605. So, Bella, about a month ago, I visited the Rigpa website and listened to the beginning of the featured video of SR teaching on the essence of Buddhism. It was something of a strange teaching, SR saying that Buddhism was all about hope and fear. He gave the example of us hoping that our master would notice and love us, while being afraid that he wouldn’t. I remember thinking to myself: This is how Lamaism sounds, this is the cult speaking.This is all about the lama, not Buddhism at all.

    Then today, I revisited the Rigpa website and listened to the featured video clip of SR teaching on the “Essence of Buddhism.” It was a very different video. This time, it was quite a sound, quintessential teaching on Buddhism. In fact, SR spoke in a very genuine and fluid manner, quite different from the posed, contrived manner he used in the video clip I saw first. His main points were focused on the Buddha’s teaching on non-harming and taming the mind. He appeared very genuine–

    My questions: Are there two SRs? A split personality? Or is it possible that all this business, all the outrage, could be forcing him to turn a corner, be more genuine and humane?

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  606. Bella, on the contrary I believe that I am beginning to sound as thoroughly confused as I’m feeling–! These are not easy issues for those of us who want to practice Buddhism without blind faith.

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  607. I wonder if there is any lama that you consider more understanding of Buddhist texts (than yourselves)? I’m sorry but I’m a bit amazed.

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  608. Tiger Lily, thank you for the clarification– somehow, I assumed that the second part of the essay was separate because there was such a discrepancy with the level of clarity. Anyway, I guess I’ve been out of mainstream discussions for a long time!

    So probably this was Anonymous posting the essay.

    I do wonder if your comments about this essay aren’t a little generous, however. I don’t think Dzongsar’s writing bears any ressemblance to the Buddhist teachings (now or hundreds of years ago) on nonduality or emptiness. It is more along the lines of “nothing exists so anything goes,” which I believe is nihilism. This is just confusion and has nothing whatsoever to do with Tibetan cultural Buddhism. It looked to me like he was trying to be humble, but instead of being humble, he just denigrated the Dharma.

    And he just continued the party line: E.G. Even if your lama doesn’t behave perfectly, he is nonetheless perfect and it is your own imperfection you are seeing. This has truth, but is so so dangerous when used as Dzongsar used it above. This is difficult isn’t it? Even HH Karmapa teaches us that it is our own imperfections we are viewing in the lama, not the lama’s. Fine until the lama goes too far with his own imperfections and puts the student’s practice in danger. Very difficult to sort out, particularly in the Vajrayana where it’s so important to practice pure vision. Personally, I think that’s where things have gone wrong, bringing the Vajrayana to the West far too quickly, before we could have all this stuff sorted out.

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  609. I understand Dzongsar’s writings in a completely different way. I don’t know if you have ever listened to his teachings live or on audio? He uses a lot of humor and questions people’s ideas.

    He constantly makes fun of himself – and says with his teachings that he doesn’t consider himself as an enlightened being.

    This is not talk of a confused person, but comes from honesty. If he would say that he himself is enlightened and there’s no way of you knowing if he is or not, then you would criticize him of self centerdness.

    All his teachings come from a spacious mind and not from a very narrow, tight knot mind – and the sense of humour shows that. he sees the modern world around him, is very observant and is able to bring the essense of Buddhism into this mixed world.

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  610. Drolma. Just to clarify for you. Melong whoever he/she is posted an essay which Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche wrote in 2002.
    It’s quite a confused piece because I don’t think he had resolved his own issues then.
    I hope that ten years on, he is wiser. It just shows how silly we were to take everything Lamas said as the gospel without question.
    His point is (I think)….If we draw a comparison to how several hundred years ago people actually believed the world was flat. Along come the Tibetans with amazing Teachings about emptiness and nonduality which is a bit like how it was when it was proved that the world wasn’t really flat but round, well ofcourse they are right and our view is wrong.
    But they are wrong in assuming their antiquated methods are always suitable for us. And we are wrong to assume they always know best.
    Really, the 2002 essay shows how muddled DJK was in his own thinking.
    Do I blame him? Absolutely not. He was coming from a vastly different culture and like several other Tulkus had to face personal difficulties without being able to own up to them publically because the expectations we all had of Lamas were that they were perfect.
    We in the West have alot of maturing to do ourselves.

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  611. Melong/Tibetan Lama/Rinpoche: Are you actually stating that your only motivation for practicing an ethically disciplined life, as a lama, as a representative of the Buddha’s teachings, is the opinions of others?? Did I read you right? Is this, then, the structure supporting the abuse of women by Tibetan lamas? Did you actually infer that because you don’t abuse women, you lack courage? Did I read you right?

    And I quote from Melong:

    “For me, renunciation, humility and non-worldliness are still the guiding principles for my path, but not because I have seen the futility of worldly life. It is only because I am a Tibetan Buddhist lama, and this is what the masses think it is right for a lama to do. And what people think still seems to matter to me.”

    Perhaps Melong is Anonymous having fun?

    Bella, much of the Mengak packages are teachings by SR– these are the introductory teachings, the critical teachings because they orient new students to Buddhism.

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  612. Removed: Off-topic

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  613. Removed: Off-topic

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  614. They don’t study texts?

    Well, I have been there during the past decade – and they do study texts, even me! How many times I have been in the teachings of another Buddhist lama and heard teachings on Lojong for the 10th time? Of course it’s good to hear it, because it reminds our ego time and again about the right direction. But I have heard those teachings already in Rigpa.

    Once I was on a retreat of Prajnaparamita, whole 10 days SR teaching alone in Dzogchen Beara. In all the retreats SR goes through many texts. He just searches many commentaries in relation to a teaching, combines them and often Patrick or someone else reads a passage aloud from various commentaries (because of his perfect English) and SR comments on them.

    I have been listening to teachings about Bodhicharyavatara, all Ngondro through and through, Vajrakilaya, Tendrel Nyesel, Rigdzin Dupa (complete text, not the shortened, politically correct version as is practiced in other Western centers). Other more serious practitioners have been lately attending Orgyen Tobgyal’s teachings, have received Dzogchen teachings and many other teachings not only from SR, but from Minguyr Rinpoche and other younger lamas.

    I am more interested in practices, so my list of teachings are practice related. Some other people are interested in Bodhicitta practices, opening the heart, which is not very easy and I consider it in relation to a healing process. Some prefer more academic texts. They probably end up in shedra. I know people from another lama’s shedra group – those people are not necessarily finding the discipline to study at home over the years while they work. Maybe it’s better to go to Nepal, live cheap, study Tibetan at the same time and receive teachings from Tibetan Khenpos.

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  615. Alternative Perspective, thank you for your comments. I have been asking myself for seven years now how it was that I changed from an independently minded woman–a woman who thought quite a bit out of the grid, sent her kids to alternative schools etc.– to an abject follower of lamas. Even my dress became weird over those years. I still don’t completely understand the process, but it certainly had cultish qualities.

    Certainly, there’s groupthink behavior in our Dharma Centers– it’s a lot like high school. As for psychopathic/narcissistic behaviors, I haven’t seen that in the lamas I’ve known, not even SR. Paranormal experiences? Most of us have had them; Buddhism generally plays them down. I remember a retreat with Shyalpa Rinpoche, where we were hanging prayer flags on a beautiful sunny day and suddenly there was the biggest rainbow I have ever seen stretched across the sky. We all saw it and those things do happen in Buddhist Centers and I guess for some, they’re an important part of the belief process. HH Dalai Lama plays them down as well.

    However, I believe that Western Scientific paradigms fall short when it comes to truly understanding the extraordinary phenomena of devotion. The force of my feelings for my lamas was a big part of why I stuck around so long– it was a blinding, emotional experience that changed my entire reality. This is hard for someone who hasn’t experienced it to understand. This experience might be partly what Bella is speaking from. It is what causes thousands of people to openly weep in the pressence of HH Dalai Lama. Being in the pressence of these beings can be extraordinarily moving. For me, this was definitely the main factor in my abject, cultish faith in my lamas.

    And unfortunately, many of us come to Dharma Centers in the first place during vulnerable times in our lives, times when we’re looking for something. This makes us particularly susceptable to strong emotional experiences.

    The question I have had is how can we avoid this pitfall, how can we avoid students losing their critical intelligence because of a strong emotional experience? The answer I have found is in Buddhism itself, in the teachings and commentaries of the Buddha. There is nothing cultish in those teachings, nothing blinding, nothing stupid. Personally, I believe that the trouble in Western Dharma Centers is because it’s all about the lama– the lama becomes the beginning, middle and end of the reason people are present at a Dharma Center. At Rigpa, all the study groups study teachings by SR, lots of them– they don’t study original texts from Buddha or any of the ancient commentaries until they’re senior students (e.g. initiated into the cult). That’s how the power he has holds– students at Rigpa believe that Buddhism is SR. They study SR. This is Lamaism, not Buddhism.

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  616. Pointless aggravation removed

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  617. Moderator Note

    @ Anonymous & who knows how many sockpuppets

    Enough is enough. Throwing out jibes at every opportunity is pointless and unnecessary aggravation. I’m going to have my hand over the ‘delete comment’ button for the next few weeks and will, without hesitation, nuke each and every comment you make that contains such unhelpful jibes. I’m also putting an end to your repeated abuse of sockpuppetry as a means of attacking people.

    I let this go on for far too long, but I’m putting a stop to it now.

    End Moderator Note

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  618. The perception of a sexually abusive little fat slime ball as a compassionate Buddha:)

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  619. So what paranormal activity have I described in relation to SR?

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  620. I met Kelsang Gyatso-he was quiet, humble, a slight man who was softly spoken and exhibited great spiritual presence-He later organized worldwide angry demonstrations against the Dalai Lama. Such a nice, quiet, humble man

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  621. As ever, the fanatical cult member response
    True-believer syndrome is an informal or rhetorical term coined by M. Lamar Keene in his 1976 book The Psychic Mafia. Keene used the term to refer to people who continued to believe in a paranormal event or phenomenon even after it had been proven to have been staged.Keene considered it to be a cognitive disorder and regarded it as being a key factor in the success of many psychic medium

    In his book The Psychic Mafia, Keene tells of a psychic medium named Raoul. Some people still believed that Raoul was genuine even after he openly admitted that he was a fake. Keene wrote “I knew how easy it was to make people believe a lie, but I didn’t expect the same people, confronted with the lie, would choose it over the truth. … No amount of logic can shatter a faith consciously based on a lie.”

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  622. Anonymous, you are such a nasty piece of mind, I can’t believe. I have also personally met Minguyr Rinpoche outside Rigpa. He was very soft, almost an angelic being already.

    He didn’t announce his departure anyway. He just took off.

    Where did you see him announcing it? Propaganda machine is not working well, I guess.

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  623. I was working under a boss who was a narcissist. He invited me to have private talks where he made his own rules for our work, bounding the social norms and I think even legality. In front of the group of other workers he never did that but was a joking, relaxed fellow.

    SR – we all can see that he doesn’t have this kind of double face. He is too childlike to play the games of adulthood and theater. At times he is too direct to many.

    I’m sorry, but even though narcissists are considered intelligent, I disagree. The ones I have met have tried to play their theater for a a while, but nobody succeeds 100%, so they always crack at some point. All is needed is an ordinary person to be present in such occasion and keep their eyes open when it happens.

    So, most of the stories I’ve read here either by abused women (Ex-dakini, Janine/Mimi, Deidre) or their ‘presenters’ seem invented (only exception to me is Ex-dakini) so I have no reason to believe those women’s stories. Sorry, but I have no nerve anymore for any level of lying at this stage of my life.

    I have not only based my opinion about SR to other people’s view. If I did, I would also believe blindly what ever some person wrote here, except of course, that most these people (except MF) are completely anonymous too.

    IF SR has thousands of students that he has been able to reach he can’t be extremely ‘ordinary’.

    I also suggest that DI people to go see him in real life. This weekend Patrick is in Dublin, remember!

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  624. Once again, the cult of guru worship rears its ugly head. Bella can see no wrong because Mingyur is big buddies with Sogyal (who can do no wrong) When the Buddha left the palace to pursue his path? Did he text journalists so they could write stories about his glorious renunciation? No, he kept his mouth shut and just got on with it. Why?Because not to do so would have been just another act in the string of worldly activities that make up so much of our lives.
    Mingyur, on the other hand, has taken full advantage of modern media to ensure that his ‘renunciation’ is already publicly lauded as the act of a great saint-Think of the long term financial benefits when he returns, a thought that very obviously never crossed his or his organizations minds.

    I too ‘went forth’ I too begged in India and lived under rocks in the mountains. if M is reading, check this-It doesnt matter what you renounce externally because you carry your trip with you-true renunciation is knowing you cant invest in the conceptual process for even a moment if you seek long term peace WHEREVER YOU ARE AND HOWEVER YOU LIVE False renunciation is going into hiding and hoping others perceive you as holy for doing so=Lets hope the benefactors keep up their monthly payments

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  625. “Anonymous, on March 16, 2012 at 6:08 pm said:

    Mingyur Rinpoche who has VERY PUBLICLY embarked on the journey of a true renunciant AND TAKEN HIS AMEX GOLD CARD WITH HIM”

    Were YOU looking for the card after he was gone? Poor Chinese.

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  626. As a person interested in the cultish phenomena, one of the reasons for which I have been following the discussions from this forum, I have noted that there lacks in it a perspective from what is known in what respects the personality of the psychopaths or narcissistic persons, the significance of the alternative states of consciousness, and the processes occurring in general in organizations of people.

    For example, from her last message, it seems that Bella tends to rely very much on her experience with SR as a caring and compassionate master, and her ability to interpret it better than others, with the help of her Rigpa friends, who are supposedly even more in touch with SR than she is. But there is always a risk in interpreting such a seemingly positive experience with a person for several reasons, which are not public knowledge in general.

    In the first place, it is known that “An integral feature of the psychopathic
    personality is the ability to con and manipulate, while appearing charming and sincere.” (Louth, Williamson, Alpert, Pouget and Robert D. Hare, 1998, at http://www.springerlink.com/content/j64k427158kt6661/, for example) The same is true for narcissistic personality. Maybe the only way to be sure is the opportunity to observe for a relative long time the behavior of a person when she/he believes that nobody sees her/him, or in a more private context, when she/he is not in public. From what I’ve read, the disciples of the masters from the past used to live for a long time with their master, being in his presence regularly. I think that, in order that a trust relationship between a master and a disciple to be established, it is necessary that both the master and the disciple have to be one for each other an open book. If there is no such opportunity, then doubt may always lurk deep inside. Any master that is not offering that kind of openness for all his students is doubtful from the start. I do not think that past encounters with abusive persons offer sufficient immunity, or knowledge to discover another one, without the necessary intimate knowledge mentioned above.

    In the second place, it is a common phenomena that may occur in group dynamics, named groupthink, which is referring to a “psychological drive for consensus at any cost that suppresses dissent and appraisal of alternatives in cohesive decision making groups.” (Janis, 1972, at http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid=1975-29417-000), i.e. to a loyalty that “requires each member to avoid raising controversial issues”, to “a mode of thinking people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members striving for unanimity override their motivation to realistically appraise alternative courses of action (Janis, 1982, p. 12, in Rose, 2009 at http://www.regent.edu/acad/global/publications/elj/vol4iss1/Rose_V4I1_pp37-57.pdf, for a review of the scientific literature). So, members of a group will tend to develop a collective way of thinking, trying to preserve, sometimes at any costs, what maintains the cohesiveness of a group (such it is the leader of a religious group). Usually, especially the persons from the upper hierarchy of a group tend to fall prey to this phenomenon, as they have much more to lose from the disintegration of that group, or they invested their life in it in a higher degree. So, that is why their witnesses and experiences regarding the leader of the group may not be necessarily more convincing than the ones of other persons. It is not that they would consciously lie, but they may unconsciously avoid the occasions to find out things that would put in danger, or contradict their beliefs or faith, or, if they do meet involuntarily such occasions, they would distort or rationalize their perceptions and conclusions in the desired direction (as it is the case with the “crazy wisdom”) . So, relying on the testimony of senior Rigpa students would not be a warranted strategy to find out the truth.

    As an illustration for the points from above, the Hitler case is paradigmatic. His close friends, or relatives, or the huge mass of his fascinated followers may think of him the best, that he was a loving, and caring person, capable of gentle gestures with them. Maybe very few from the ones that were close to him were aware, or willing to believe that he was capable of such atrocious deeds as the ones from the Nazist war camps. The blind submission to his orders of some seemingly decent and intelligent persons may be explainable, in part, by the groupthink phenomenon.

    I think our faith in our own cleverness is no certain guard against groupthink, or the charm of narcissist persons, who can manipulate spirits and fake publicly a noble behavior, and then attract the main followers in a silence spiral.

    In the third place, it is dangerous to put too much base on alternative states of consciousness, paranormal experiences, or dreams in what respects the choices requested in a spiritual path. One reason for that may be the scientific data that show that such different states of consciousness (even the egoless ones) may be achieved through other means than meditation, or ritual, i.e. by ingestions of some psychoactive drugs (LSD, for example, see for example Newberg, at http://www.google.metanexus.org/archive/templetonadvancedresearchprogram/pdf/TARP-Newberg.pdf), through suggestions, or maybe through the electrical or magnetic fields stimulation of some regions of the brain (Granqvist, Fredrikson, Unge, Hagenfeldt, Valind, Larhammar & Larsson 2005, at http://www2.psychology.su.se/staff/pgran/Granqvistetal2006.pdf ), although the latter is still a debated possibility. There are studies also on the neuropsychological correlates of the meditation that show that a selfless, cosmic, state of consciousness may be due to the deactivation of certain brain regions involved in the spatial processing and the corporeal perception of the self in the space, as the superior parietal cortical areas are (Newberg et al., 2001, at http://www.psyn-journal.com/article/S0925-4927(01)00074-9/abstract), as an effect of an increased activation of the prefrontal areas. It is a phenomenon elicited also by complex visual spatial tasks, and similar with the flow experience of the artists involved in their work, as discussed by Csikszentmihalyi. Another reason for doubting paranormal experiences, visions, and dreams is a religious one. For example, in the Eastern Orthodox Christianity tradition, it is recognized by highly revered monks that visions, precognitions or dreams are suspect and untrustworthy from the start, because they always can be “inspired” by evil spirits (or malefic forces), even when they show Christ or Virgin Mary in a halo of light, as the devil can show himself as an angel of light. Such visions can deceive a monk into thinking with proud that he is worthy of such high visions, in order to forget his humility, the only one that is compatible with the divine grace. So, in this tradition, an extreme caution was recommended in what respects the dreams and visions. The most safely it was considered to ignore them completely, or to ask an experienced monk about their significance before giving them credit to be a divine message.

    So, relying on dreams or strange coincidences about a master may not be a sure way to find the truth about him.

    Finally, judging the quality of a master by the way we changed after meeting him may be also a biased criterion. It is as if an orphan raised in an orphanage, who managed to become a decent person in spite of all the encountered hardship, would say that the orphanage is a good place to be raised for because of that. Sometimes, many therapies are credited by a person to work for her/him, only because they happen to occur in the same time with a spontaneous recovery, or after a recovery that occurred because of another neglected remedy, or because they alleviated the surface symptoms, maybe replacing the initial illness with a worse, but unpainful, one (as it is with some cancerogenic drugs), of which that person is not even aware.

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  627. An interesting post from Melong.

    Dzongsar Khyentse has been trading on this routine for the past 20 years and in précis it goes like this:

    “Look over there at those (other) backward Tibetan lamas with their cultural arrogance.”
    It’s not particularly wrong, but it’s mis-direction to distract, humour and win over the reader and its message is: “Hey! I’m different, I’m modern and I’m on your side.”

    This leads on to: “Humility is hypocrisy and since I don’t even make an effort to be humble, I can’t possibly be a hypocrite…..I’m honest, intellectual and rational, I’ve really thought about this so you can trust me.”

    He ties himself in knots trying to demonstrate why we westerners shouldn’t be so arrogant as to actually try and make any kind of assessment of the Dharma from our materialist perspective and so-called objective view……this is dangerous for some reason. No explanation of why this should be the case is forthcoming.

    Then the fact that ‘planes fly and boats don’t sink’….a kind of grudging acknowledgement that our materialist perspective and so-called objective view might just be what underpins almost everything that makes life even possible, is followed by a classic jump to magical thinking and spiritual obfuscation: “Who is to say whether a person is enlightened or not?”. This asserts that enlightenment exists while simultaneously saying that the means to establish that assertion can’t exist. A self-contradictory statement that reveals exactly why Tibetan lamas seem very keen on western material but not the western materialist perspective that makes it possible, it makes them very nervous….it asks questions that they don’t have an answer for. It’s fairly standard religious hypocrisy.

    His opinion on humanitarianism or social activism (that would be things like supporting refugees or criticizing totalitarian regimes that produce them perhaps) seems to be that this kind of ordinary empathy is quite inferior because you just end up being co-dependent, insecure and eventually egotistic. This is probably why most lamas choose California over the Congo of course, because Bodhisattvas transcend mere sympathy for needy or helpless beings…… Their aim is to liberate beings from the traps of life and the myth of freedom. And if that means dwelling in luxury and enjoying every imaginable privilege…well, they’re prepared to make that sacrifice, and you have to admire their bravery.

    His message is that lamas may seem to behave just like everybody else or even worse, but on no account should they be judged like the rest of us, but we should venerate and emulate their absolute indifference towards others’ opinions, admire them for not being hypocritical and so on….

    And this after an almost comical effort at disarming, self-deprecating false modesty,
    ‘I can’t help but feel utterly hypocritical on many occasions…’ and this kind of convoluted posturing proves he’s absolutely right.

    There’s something pervasively confused about his reasoning, but that’s not surprising. Being a Tibetan Buddhist means you believe that your true nature is Buddha-nature: totally enlightened, omniscient, the ultimate state of wisdom and compassion beyond suffering. Even if you accept that you haven’t realised this and you’re striving to achieve it, you’re still engaged in what must be the most ridiculously narcissistic activity available to a human being: the heroic quest to understand how absolutely wonderful you are, your own Great Perfection.

    This might create a little pressure of course, even if you do have an indefinite number of lifetimes to do it, so a bit of self-justifying obfuscation comes in handy to explain away the contradictions that might limit the amount of adulation that narcissists crave so desperately.

    Credit where it’s due: Tibetan Buddhists out-do other religions when it comes to
    Post hoc ergo propter hoc false logic; when a great lama teaches, sunshine is due to his wisdom, rain a shower of his blessings, rainbows his realization…..in fact they’ve got it sown up meteorologically speaking when it comes to mixing up association and causation. Even Alzheimer’s is attributed to the ‘exhaustion of phenomenal reality’ if you’re well up the lineage.

    Sadly there’s a dark side to this, because it’s precisely this sort of pretence that camouflages the truth when it’s unpalatable.

    Dzongsar Khyentse once described Sogyal as “not an ordinary being” he was sitting next to him at the time. This kind of manipulative hyperbole infects Tibetan Buddhism, interpreting everything from the banal to the destructive as ultimately benign. Many lamas don’t like Sogyal, but their readiness to support him probably means he tips well.

    He concludes with: “No matter how often we judge, it is always in vain.”
    And that “subjectivity is at the very core of judgement.” a final attempt to undermine confidence in the very critical intelligence that protects us from his particular brand of cheap, quasi-intellectual sophistry.

    Basically, he is, as that delightfully graphic expression puts it; ‘Trying to piss down your leg and tell you it’s raining.’

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  628. I have to say that my life hasn’t worsened in any way by meeting SR. There was some rough time facing my demons, but it was already before I met him, it was a path I chose for myself consciously.

    I really wonder if it is really right for you to blame lamas for your own cigaret smoking, alcohol drinking and so on. Think for a while about it. Even though you are a therapist, you are not necessarily right. At least Tibetan teachings do not encourage and SR doesn’t encourage any of those things you’ve done – or what has happened to you.

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  629. Drolma, after I posted the above reply to Melong I saw that you too had just replied. Did you think Melong was Dzongsar Khyentse? Perhaps he is! Anyway you and I have agreed on our doubts about the last statement regarding being unable to judge a Bodhisattva.
    I am so sorry to hear more of the difficulties you had to overcome, but you do everyone a great service by giving your experience as an example of why it is so important that Sanghas speak out and we do criticize the behaviour or teaching methods of Lamas.
    I hope that Dzongsar Rinpoche does read what you have said because I feel he can contribute much towards the transformation in the way the West nurtures Tibetan Buddhism.

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  630. Mingyur Rinpoche who has VERY PUBLICLY embarked on the journey of a true renunciant AND TAKEN HIS AMEX GOLD CARD WITH HIM

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  631. A good essay by DJK Rinpoche up to the last four paragraphs when the argument starts to go woolly. I will come to why I consider this is the case in a moment.
    Firstly the essay is 10 years old. Alot of stinking water has gone under the bridge since then.
    DJK was more outspoken when he was interviewed during the filming of “Tulku” by Gesar Mukpo.
    Secondly two Lamas quite recently have given up the trappings of status and privilege. Mingyur Rinpoche who has embarked on the journey of a true renunciant wandering yogin, and Kalu Yangsi who realized how some Lamas were tending to enjoy their visit to Samsara a little too much, and what a sham his life was becoming. For this young man there was no question of excusing hypocrisy or taking advantage of the perks.
    Back to the above essay.
    ….”Given this, we should not condemn the few lamas or practitioners who are seemingly worldly, if when it comes to benefitting beings, they display little or no selfishness. We should venerate and emulate such lamas’ absolute indifference towards others’ opinions – such as praise for their simplicity or condemnation of their worldliness – and venerate, too, their lack of concern about gaining disciples by being humble or losing them from their behaviour. At least we should admire them for not being hypocritical….”
    If they are truly benefiting beings, then they are worthy of our admiration. Period.
    ….”Unlike them, I feel that I am far from overcoming this hypocrisy of false humility and attaining a genuine indifference. For me, renunciation, humility and non-worldliness are still the guiding principles for my path, but not because I have seen the futility of worldly life. It is only because I am a Tibetan Buddhist lama, and this is what the masses think it is right for a lama to do. And what people think still seems to matter to me…..”
    Is he asking us to believe that he doesn’t think for himself and make his own choices? Then he plays the final trump card, suggesting that we should not value our critical thinking when assessing a given situation or allow our subjective experience to inform our impressions.
    That is the cliched argument trotted out in many a Sangha.
    Still, overall this was quite bold talk from a maverick Lama at a time when few would dare to speak openly. In the light of eventual revelations I imagine his own critical faculties have sharpened somewhat and he can tell the difference between false humility and honesty.

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  632. Thank you, Rinpoche for taking the time to respond to these concerns. Your overview of the situation is very succinct and struck many chords of agreement for me. My only reservation is with your final remarks about the difficulty and dangers in judging a bodhisattva. I can only speak from personal experience, but I roamed from lama to lama, and became sicker and sicker. My marriage broke up, I missed years of my childrens’ lives and I missed the point of the blessed Buddha Dharma completely. What kept me going from lama to lama was simply the Milarepa story, the idea that I needed to suffer tortures to be Buddhist. I needed to become an alcoholic, I needed to smoke cigarettes, I needed what my X-husband called my “lama ups and downs” in order to progress on the path.

    We Westerners think we’re tough stuff when we have our first taste of the Buddha Dharma; we all think we’re the best, we’re Milarepa and can suffer abuse and start the Vajrayana within months of entering a Dharma center. Our lamas feed this myth and it seems so dangerous. I only started to become well after turning my back on what I now call my “lama madness.” You see, I needed to find the courage in myself to say that my lamas, these great beings who made me feel weak at the knees, were not helping me on my Dharmic path. I had to say that or commit suicide.

    I now study daily from HH Dalai Lama. Day after day, month after month, year after year I have been studying and discovering the great sanity and wonder of Buddha’s teachings. You see, it was only after turning away and judging my lamas that I found Dharma– it was only after doing what the Buddha advised all along, testing and judging.

    That’s why we need to develop a culture in western dharma centers of speaking out. We need that desperately. Perhaps while we’re doing that, lamas themselves need to set a ground of strong ethical discipline, put the crazy wisdom aside for a while, until the ground is firm and strong.

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  633. October, 2002 Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche

    A friend of mine from New York recently sent me an email article titled “Is Tibetan Buddhism Working in the West?” Although my immediate reaction was somewhat defensive, I have to admit that the author made several worthwhile points. It might appear futile for me to add yet another point of view to this seemingly endless debate, but long before modern civilization celebrated free speech, the Buddha stressed respect for reasoning, and emphasized that we should examine a path rather than following it blindly.

    Yet, one can’t help noticing that even in this so-called “modern age,” blind faith is not only alive but kicking, even to the extent of people giving up their lives just because some priest has guaranteed their passage to heaven. It is not only important for us to exercise this freedom to examine the path and its authority, but we must also watch out for the cultural baggage that accompanies it. How much of this culture does one have to buy into? Does being a Westerner mean that one lacks the attributes to be a Buddhist? Or do the gurus have to compromise their teachings to fit into the West? These were some of the questions brought up in the email I received.

    For years, Tibetan lamas have won the hearts and minds of many in the West, mainly because of the sophisticated wisdom of the Buddha that they embody, but also because many of them appear gentle and easily amused. The fact that they are an endangered species helps, too, and if some of them do not project sufficient saintliness, there are always a handful of genuine masters that can be put up as window dressing. But the initial infatuation is ending; moreover, some Westerners are beginning to realize that there is a big difference between Buddhism and Tibetan culture. As societal attitudes change, aided by modern media, the scrutiny of public figures and scepticism towards so-called spiritual paths has intensified. For the first time, Tibetans in general and lamas in particular have been forced to savour the bittersweet taste of free society, where freedom comes with responsibility and scrutiny. For some, it’s becoming a painful realization that popularity and success come at a price.

    Also, reluctantly, Tibetans are accepting that attempts to impose what they see as a superior way of living are not working. But like many in the East, Tibetans still clutch firmly to all of their culture as the ultimate answer to everything, including some of it that they could beneficially do without. As if that were not enough, many have insisted that their Western followers adopt the whole cultural package along with Buddhism. It is this hodgepodge of Tibetan culture and Buddhism that many are having a hard time digesting. Even basic Buddhist teachings such as refuge are now being taken theistically because of inadequate explanation. When we chant prayers like “I take refuge in the Buddha,” we barely mention – and we therefore ignore – its essential meanings, such as knowing that one’s ultimate nature is the Buddha. Given this, it is little wonder that the author of the article refers to the gurus and sangha as her captors, instead of her liberators.

    Because lamas have the role of bringing the Dharma to the West, they have a bigger responsibility for the teachings than do the Western students who are interested but unfamiliar with them. However, instead of making the teachings accessible, some Tibetan lamas have created a huge divide with Westerners through a combination of their superiority complex, their fundamental lack of respect towards Westerners and an inadequate interest in Western thinking. The classic Buddhist analogy of patient, doctor and treatment states that for different patients with different problems, doctors should apply the appropriate cures. Yet, if Tibetan lamas ridicule the culture and habits of their Western students as a total waste of time, how will the remedy ever take effect? Are they really suggesting that Westerners should be given the same teachings as illiterate Tibetan nomads? This lack of respect towards Westerners by Tibetans is not something recent; they have a long-held assumption that Westerners are barbaric.

    Even before 1959, many visitors to Tibet were denied entry simply because they were foreigners. One could even argue that Tibetans themselves are mostly to blame for the loss of their country because of their extreme xenophobia and their disdain and rejection of everything foreign as unholy. Despite this, many Westerners are charmed by Tibetan hospitality, politeness and friendliness, little knowing that they originate more from social obligation than sincerity. Behind most of those smiling faces, there is still the underlying reality that you are a Westerner. The few sincere smiles could well originate with the hope that you could be a sponsor or, more recently, help obtain a green card.

    Another of the author’s remarks that can’t be dismissed is that the lamas’ complaint is so familiar that it invokes a yawn. Besides seeing the Western pursuit of Dharma as superficial and fickle, Tibetans regard it as merely testing the waters, forgetting that the Buddha himself encourages this analytical attitude. The more that you examine Buddhism, the more you will discover its greatness. Moreover, for Tibetans to label Westerners as materialistic is more than a little ironical, since material pursuit has become one of the top priorities among Tibetans in general and certain lamas in particular. Big Tibetan settlements compete over everything from the largest monasteries to the latest and most prestigious brands of car. If some high lamas were just to sell their gold and silver teacup holders, they could feed hundreds of starving Ethiopians for days.

    It is true that Tibetans think that Westerners shop for Dharma, and they can’t keep the tantric teachings secret; but are they to blame if the lamas themselves turned the Dharma into a travelling show, including performances such as the sand mandala and the lama dances? It would be better if we could discover all these downfalls of the Tibetans sooner rather than later. Because otherwise, we might become disillusioned, and that might be a reason for giving up the Dharma.

    But detecting these downfalls is no easy task. Generations of experience in being hypocritical have left lamas rather subtle and sophisticated. One example is how many Westerners fall for the almost annoying theatre of the lamas’ humility, little seeing that behind the curtain is a fierce fight for who gets the highest throne. This maneuvering becomes especially dramatic when the occasion involves a large crowd, and even more so, if there are potential big donors present, especially those from Taiwan, who seem to judge the value of lamas solely by their rank, or how many letters “H” precede their names. The image of Gautama with a begging bowl and bare feet walking humbly on the streets of Maghada seems to have become a mere myth.

    The lamas’ influence and dominance in Tibet have not only weakened many secular aspects of Tibetan life such as art, music and literature, in which the lamas have little interest, but in some cases degraded the Dharma as well. If it were not for Buddhism’s fundamental view of non-theism, the rule of the more narrow-minded lamas could be as tyrannical as that of the Taliban.

    Despite their emphasis on an ecumenical attitude, many lamas encourage sectarianism by guarding their Tibetan disciples possessively and discouraging them from studying teachings from other traditions. Of course, they have a convenient excuse: their students will become too confused if they do this. Thus, many Tibetan students from one school have absolutely no idea of the other traditions; but that doesn’t seem to stop them slandering the others. As if it were not enough that they are doing this with Tibetans, the lamas have also coached Westerners in this sectarian game and they have been shockingly successful. They have also jealously guarded their Dharma centres in the West, although many are merely vehicles to generate financial support for the lamas and their monasteries back home. Supporting those Westerners who are genuinely pursuing the Dharma, or facilitating their studies, are not their primary interests. So, the question remains: Is Tibetan Buddhism ever going to work in the barbaric West? Of course, it will.

    The fact that Buddhism could be imported and flourish in then-barbaric Tibet proves that despite the many misdemeanours of its personalities and its alien culture, Buddhism can and does still work for all kinds of nationalities, genders and cultural backgrounds. Discarding Buddhism, as the author seems to have done, merely because of the misbehaviour of a few Tibetans or their seemingly complex and colourful way of life, does not seem wise. It is important to remember that it took many decades and generations of courage and devotion to firmly establish Buddhism among Tibetans. Why should we expect that it would be any different in the West? Moreover, measuring the value of Dharma from a materialist perspective or judging it with the arrogance of a so-called objective view is dangerous. It may be obvious that planes fly and boats don’t sink, but who is to say whether a person is enlightened or not? Similarly, we should be cautious when comparing social systems.

    The author’s comment that the social governance of the U.S. is far superior to that of King Trisong Detsun’s is ill-judged. During his reign, the U.S. had yet to massacre many thousands of Native Americans, let alone have a sense of social governance. By contrast, King Trisong had the vision to see the social value of Buddhism. He brought it to Tibet from India, a country with which Tibet had little in common, and he brought it despite countless hardships such as hostility from the sacrifice-loving Bon religion. Were it not for his initiative, Tibet might have adopted the bloodthirsty lifestyle of the local tribes or the so-called civilization of sycophantic Confucianism from neighbouring China. Furthermore, by asserting that the West has a very good understanding of what it means to be a Bodhisattva and comparing this with concepts such as humanitarianism or social activism, the author is completely missing the point of the Bodhisattva’s path. The aspiration of a Bodhisattva transcends mere sympathy for needy or helpless beings. Having that kind of compassion invariably leads one to become co-dependent, insecure and eventually egoistic, because one ends up defining oneself by the extent to which one has helped.

    By contrast, Bodhisattvas are not attached to their acts of help or the result. Their aim is to liberate beings from the traps of life and the myth of freedom. So one might wonder how should a Bodhisattva be? Gentle? Serene? Humble? Ascetic? These qualities might appear universally good, and it may be easy to condemn the lamas’ materialistic misdemeanours but, believe it or not, it is even easier to fall prey to their seemingly wholesome simplicity. Such hypocrisy is a universal masquerade. I can’t help but feel utterly hypocritical on many occasions, as I can easily see myself as the type of lama the author was disillusioned by.

    Despite having written this, I know that I will not give up any of my perks, whether high thrones or branded shoes, or even 49 Rolls Royce automobiles (if someone were to give them to me). It may appear sacrilegious and corrupt to see supposedly renunciant lamas dwelling in luxury and enjoying every imaginable privilege. Similarly, it doesn’t look right when a supposedly compassionate and skillful master manifests as tyrannical and narrow-minded. But one must be aware that an appearance of simple living can be deceptive. It may sound ironical but just as some would find it hard to give up worldly goods, others could be frantically worried about losing their carefully constructed image of being a simple renunciant and couldn’t-care-less crazy wisdom guy. Isn’t it fruitless and painful if one foregoes worldly pleasures just to keep up an image of humility and simplicity? Not only is one not advancing on the spiritual path, but also in the process, one is missing out on a lot of worldly delight.

    Given this, we should not condemn the few lamas or practitioners who are seemingly worldly, if when it comes to benefitting beings, they display little or no selfishness. We should venerate and emulate such lamas’ absolute indifference towards others’ opinions – such as praise for their simplicity or condemnation of their worldliness – and venerate, too, their lack of concern about gaining disciples by being humble or losing them from their behaviour. At least we should admire them for not being hypocritical.

    Unlike them, I feel that I am far from overcoming this hypocrisy of false humility and attaining a genuine indifference. For me, renunciation, humility and non-worldliness are still the guiding principles for my path, but not because I have seen the futility of worldly life. It is only because I am a Tibetan Buddhist lama, and this is what the masses think it is right for a lama to do. And what people think still seems to matter to me.

    Yet, no matter how often we judge, it is always in vain. This is not to say that being judgmental is morally or politically incorrect, but simply that subjectivity is at the very core of all judgment.

    Return to Table of Contents

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  634. I did go to the teachings of another ‘vajrayana’ teacher. I had no devotion toward him at all. It was just on the level of interest and seeing something else.

    My experience was that he didn’t understand me at all. When I said cat, he heard mouse. That was the level of communication: we lived in 2 different worlds. I never had that feeling or experience with SR: disconnected, separation – weirdness.

    That other ‘vajrayana’ teacher was much nastier to me than SR ever. I had always the feeling that SR really cares about the students. It’s not just an ego-trip like I felt that it is for the other teacher. The other teacher seemed like boasting himself, laughing in an arrogant way: like “I” know it all, you know? That is why the “cutting the ego” teachings seemed also really nasty to me – and I felt that I didn’t want to be anywhere near the teacher nor the group: nasty arrogance, that is how I saw it. I NEVER had that feeling with SR. SR has much more heart.

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  635. Helen, that was indeed a brilliant expose of Rigpa and Sogyal from an intelligent rational perspective, nevertheless a sudden burst of dazzling daylight that will send mole-like students scuttling back into their burrows!
    I commend Drolma’s suggestions as being practical measures which will benefit students who choose to remain in a Sangha.
    Both your arguments are valid and are crucial to some kind of resolution taking place.
    I take the view that Sogyal’s sexual activities have degenerated into a pseudo-Tantric cultishness which puts pretty female acolytes at risk.
    His bullying tactics also subjects men to physical and mental abuse. In no way, shape or form is this genuine Vajrayana and should be dealt with in the appropriate manner of a civilised society.
    So Helen, stand on the rooftops and trumpet your clear voice of reason.
    Send out warnings loud and clear to others on the brink of susceptibility.
    However I think the human condition does hold hidden stores of awareness that goes beyond reason and rationale, which to my limited knowledge is what an authentic Vajrayana path can reveal.
    We in the West are having to mature to distinguish which is authentic and which is not. That is the test we have to pass in order to progress.

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  636. If you have followed this page long enough, it’s really not the best place for women to start sorting things out. I have suggested to talk to a therapist in Rigpa as a start if there are real victims.

    One thing I object in many of the commentator’s view is that SR is somehow stupid and unaware of what he is doing. Like he was some poor narcissist driven by his sick impulses. For me he strikes as very aware person. For some this view of course means that he is a really evil person. I don’t believe in that view either.

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  637. Everyone has their spin on this thread and we spin and we spin and we spin. Bella has very little to say now that the focus has changed–Anonymous has very little to say now that the focus has changed. We like to spin but we don’t like to look at alternatives to our spin. We don’t like to look at situations from new angles. We have our one angle and we spin it round and round. Isn’t that true?

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  638. Helen, this really isn’t about religion. We don’t have to talk about Buddhism to talk about dialogue and human decency. When I listed our four goals in a previous entry, none of them were Buddhist goals. All of them were goals about truth, honesty, healing, closure and mutual respect. These aren’t Buddhist values; they’re human values. While you and I disagree about the value of Buddhism and ohter religions in the world, we can certainly agree on those basic, human values.

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  639. This is a good forum, it allows women who have suffered abuse by Sogyal to explain and inform. That takes a lot of courage, it’s not an easy thing to do, but it’s a valuable way of increasing the amount of information available to people who may be considering joining Rigpa or people who are still his students and trying to understand the problems and conflicts they’re experiencing because of it.

    That fact that some commentators obviously have no sustained personal experience of him won’t stop them expressing an opinion of course, whether they see themselves as scholars, tantrikas or therapists their involvement is either academic or prurient so their contributions don’t merit much attention. Some more active moderation from DI might help.

    Those who do have that experience seem to divide into people who are mature enough to understand that there never can be any justification for the abusive and humiliating behaviour that he’s addicted to and those who try to excuse it by invoking a ‘higher authority’ in the form of enlightened activity, crazy wisdom and so on. This is just a Buddhist version of the Nuremburg Defence and if someone’s stupid enough to use it, they’re either a Rigpa troll or they’ve invested so much of their life in Rigpa that they can’t bring themselves to admit they’ve been conned and used. Often that’s just too painful. Stockholm syndrome also comes to mind. This stuff is well understood, but if someone deliberately doesn’t want to try and understand it, there’s not much hope for them.

    Due to the courage of women who have spoken out, there’s now such a sheer volume of information in the public domain that, apart from blanket deniers (who we can safely leave under their soothing blankets) there now doesn’t seem to be so much an argument about what happens as one about what it means, and hence that familiar progression from saying: “It didn’t happen.” To: “It’s not what it looks like.” Of course it is precisely just that. But that’s some progress anyway.

    But accepting it calls into question so much about Tibetan Buddhism and Buddhism in general, that it needs a wider view.

    Like every religion, Buddhism is paternalistic, hierarchical, and misogynistic and allies itself to or creates a privileged elite power-structure whenever possible, and predates psychologically and financially off its adherents. Even if subtly, they are effectively an underclass. The difference in status Sogyal demands compared to his followers and the way he uses them, illustrate this perfectly. He’s not a ‘rogue lama’, at all. In fact in traditional Tibetan terms, he’s a successful one, and that’s why so many lamas including the DL support him and are indifferent to how he behaves towards others. Forget wisdom and compassion, this is all about cash and cachet.

    Religion came into being to fill the gaps in human understanding with a mixture of obvious truths, half truths and fantasies: Obviously everything is impermanent, but no, life is not entirely suffering and enlightenment is absurdly nebulous. If it existed and was transmittable, then by a simple mathematical progression, starting from the Buddha’s time 2,500 years ago, the world should now be full of enlightened beings.

    So where are they? If even for a moment someone believes a man so debased and dishonest as Sogyal is an example or even on his way to this imaginary state, that by their own definition, ordinary people don’t understand, then they have problems.

    But many of his students have ‘experiences’ during his teachings. Fixating on and interpreting these keeps them coming back. His technique has remained exactly the same for years, it’s all he’s got, but it fools some of the people some of the time…..and it works like this: That people are there in the first place means they actively want to believe. The audience is kept waiting, this builds up anticipation and boredom. The subsequent entrance, the brooding silences followed by random public humiliation, creates an atmosphere of tension, fear and further ramps up emotion. Meditation, chanting and ritual are powerful tools for inducing dissociative states, these increase suggestibility and dull critical intellect, so when he starts teaching some people get a rush of emotional relief, so whatever he says can seem profound. By then they’re into a self-congratulatory loop.

    When this is combined with an acceptance of his so-called ‘enlightened activity’ and that most repugnant of Buddhist ideas: Karma (you can only experience the results of what you yourself have created the causes for…..or ‘blaming the victim’ as it’s otherwise known) then the ‘sacred bond’ between Sogyal and his followers is complete: an effective closed-logic trap.

    Reading some postings here in the light of this is fascinating but quite sad. It also means that nothing can ever change from within Rigpa itself because abuse and aggression aren’t just side issues within Rigpa, they’re Sogyal’s main method of controlling people and situations, and without them he’d be lost. He certainly wouldn’t have got very far on his charm alone, although now at least he’s well placed to bribe. He won’t ever admit to anything. Neither will those close to him. They also have secure jobs, or status and a social structure of sorts, but unlike Sogyal, they’ve also endured years of humiliation to get it. Given their evident lack of moral revulsion, why would they give that up? And there are plenty of off-the-shelf excuses at their disposal. They probably don’t even really care if he abuses women, as long as he’s otherwise engaged they’re relieved to be out of the firing line and happy to look the other way. It’s a common dynamic in abusive groups and it certainly works that way in Rigpa.

    So no, Sogyal and Rigpa will never change for the better. The only sane response is to walk away, work to understand what happened and rebuild a normal healthy life beyond medieval obscurantism and superstition, dominance and subservience. The modern world has so much more to offer. Make a list of all the benefits we all have derived from rationality, science and democracy and then one with any tangible benefits that are solely the result of 2,500 years of Buddhism.………..

    It’s not easy to reconcile yourself to wasted years of cult-membership but perfectly possible, and a large number of ex-students have done this very successfully and now lead quite happy lives cheerfully unburdened by the endless obligations to meditate, mumble in Tibetan, pray, pay or grovel to an angry fat man.
    Unflinching deconstruction and total rejection is the fastest route, and by far the most enjoyable. If you cling to Buddhism in any form, you’ll never regain real mental autonomy. As the saying goes; ‘Religion can never bring freedom because it is itself a form of slavery’.

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  640. Bella, I am not invisioning a brawl between SR and Mary at Macleod Ganj. I am not invisioning a brawl at all. I see a situation where the truth can become known and closure can start. If what you say is true and there is no substance at all to the allegations, then there is no problem whatsoever with my plan. It simply won’t happen, because my plan relies on women being willing to come forward and speak of their experiences in a safe environment, a safer environment than the courtroom. If they are not willing to come forward and speak in the pressence of HH Dalai Lama, then there is nothing that can be done anyway because they certainly would not be willing to come forward and speak to a judge.

    In my plan, there would be a forum of sorts, with strict rules of conduct laid out, similar to those used in therapy groups. For example, confidentiality and respect would be central components of much of the dialogue. Confidentiality would only be broken with the agreement of all involved. The women willing to come forward with their stories would participate in the planning so that their safety could be insured. For example, I imagine that it would be important for senior Rigpa students to be present as key witnesses so that women’s stories couldn’t easily be brushed off and denied by SR.

    And I emphasize, the environment would be one of mutual respect and anyone who engages in intimidating or disrepectful behaviors, regardless of rank, would be asked to leave. I know that emotions run very high with all of this, so these rules of conduct are vitally important. It seems to me that as Buddhists, it is dialogue that we must turn to again and again if we wish to resolve what truly has become a critically serious issue.

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  641. I think you have basically good ideas, Drolma. Anonymous’ and Finnigan’s way doesn’t lead into anything but conflict that most people want to turn their backs on.

    My problem is that I’m still not convinced that something serious has happened. First of all I need to know the truth. I’ve met many older students and they speak against the accusations. Since I know those people a bit I don’t think they are doing it only to protect some image. Therefore I am not able to join into some planning of Finnigan and SR meeting with HHDL.

    I have also the personal story that I was very angry about something said during the teachings – and after I let go off my ‘rage’, I felt incredible love that didn’t have any object, there was no grasping. In a way I think SR might enrage people at times purposefully. I can’t be sure, but the experience was powerful and very strong dreams prior that day also indicated that something ‘more’ was going on.

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  642. Who are you: Henry Kissinger? HH knows about this stuff and has done for years. Until theres blood on the carpet and plenty of it, no one will do anything (Think $$$$$$$) Shout it loud ‘Stop abuse in Buddhism now’ (And yes, Im angry. If at had happened to you or your children, I suspect your ideology would go out of the window too)

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  643. Mary Finnigan has been very clear for some time that her goal is to put SR out of action as a teacher. I am not denying that this attitude might be justified in the light of above allegations. However, I do have doubts that this could ever be possible. I even wonder how successful the current civil suits could be? I wonder if they’re even moving along as had hoped? SR is a very rich and powerful man and the ordeal of filing suit for sexual abuse is very grueling– I have been the brunt of SR’s abuse and cannot imagine that he will back down if confronted in this way. So I have been wondering for some time if there are other approaches that can achieve the same goals. Approaches that might be able to speak to a better side of SR, instead of closing off and maintaining that he has no better side.

    Our goals in bringing this affair to a resolution are several-fold:

    1. To ascertain the truth and extent of sexual abuses committed by SR.
    2. To bring those abuses to an end in such a way that students can be safe and confident that abuses will NEVER occur again.
    3. To provide closure for the abused. Depending on the needs of each woman, this could entail anything from filing charges to monetary compensation to a simple act of shame and apology from SR himself.
    4. To address the problems within Rigpa which have provided an environment where such abuses can occur.

    It seems to me that there are faults which need to be addressed on both sides. On our side, we need to settle down from our stance of righteous vengefulness and be willing to engage in dialogue. On Rigpa’s side, they need to stop pretending that this will just go away if they ignore it long enough and stop proceding with business as usual– and be willing to engage in dialogue.

    What do you think, Bella, could this be possible? Would SR and senior students be willing to engage in dialogue? With HH Dalai Lama?

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  644. Too much time on your hands.Do you keep the Dhammapada on your coffee table?

    No one advocated anger anywhere so your tirade against it (a form of aversion BTW) is redundant. Again, you use the DLs experience to justify your lecture on what Buddhism is-Thanks for the lecture but Ill stick with what my teacher tells me, not your advice.
    You advocate forgiveness-which Buddhist scripture does that come from? Again, which scripture tells us that telling everyone else how to practice is the way?
    Forigiveness is fine for the individual. But this is not about the individual, its about protecting people from abuse. Your suggestions protect no one but yourself-Mahayana Buddhism: I think not
    Youre right to tell others how to stay calm But your ideas do nothing to prevent future abuse

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  645. Perhaps His Holiness Dalai Lama would be open to a dialogue in Macleod Ganj, his home, It could be attended by the principle players, Mary Finnigan, SR, women who have been abused, X-students of Rigpa, Senior students of Rigpa. I wonder if His Holiness would agree? Perhaps that’s what he was intending when he invited SR to his meeting with Mary Finnigan. Perhaps that’s the only way this can move forward in a way that is least harmful to the many good and decent members of the Rigpa sangha. I wonder if such a step is possible?

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  646. As for your ideas on forgiveness, these are definitely not shared by most Buddhists and certainly not by HH Dalai Lama. As an example, His Holiness long ago became close friends with the Irish man Richard Moore, who at the age of 10 was blinded by a British rubber bullet. They have met frequently over the years.

    Moore, instead of breeding hatred and anger in himself, cultivated a spirit of firegiveness and actually became friends with the British man who shot him. Moore has also grown up to live a full life with a loving family etc. He founded the charity organization “Children in the Crossfire” which is devoted to creating a more safe environment for children around the world.

    This is not airy fairy, hippy jargon. It works. An attitude of dialogue, foregiveness and tolerance opens up possibilities.

    While I would not ask women who have been abused to consider foregiveness too early in their healing, because it can often be a trigger, we who are not at risk of that can certainly work towards that mindset.

    In this situation, of course, we need to begin with getting to the complete truth and with dialogue, an open mind.

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  647. If you use the words of the Buddha that you’ve just quoted to justify aggression and harming others, then you are taking those words totally out of context. You are denying the karmic law of cause and effect. You are interpreting the teachings on no-self in a nihilistic way and this is a serious fault.

    The first words of the Buddha after attaining enlightenment were:
    Commit no harm
    Tame your mind well.

    Then he taught the Four Noble Truths, which outline how we create suffering for ourselves through the three mental afflictions, which are attachment, anger/hatred/aversion and ignorance.

    This is the foundation of the Buddha’s teaching. The teachings on no-self and emptiness were taught in the context of non-harming. This is the Middle Way.

    The Buddha also said in the Dhammapada:
    Hasten to do good; refrain from evil. If you neglect the good, evil can enter your mind.

    He also said in the Dharmmapada:
    Those who hold back rising anger like a rolling chariot are real charioteers. Others merely hold the reins.

    HH Dalai Lama said in “A Flash of Lightening in the Dark of Night”
    “As a destructive force, there is nothing as strong as anger. An instant of anger can destroy all the positive actions accumulated over thousands of kalpas through the practice of generosity, making offerings to the Buddhas, keeping discipline and so on. Indeed, there is no fault as serious as anger.”

    I could go on and on citing from teachings and scriptures in the Buddhist canon on the conduct of nonharming. That, along with the view of emptiness, is Buddhism. You cannot say otherwise. It is compared to the two wings of a bird, nonharming and the view of emptiness– they cannot be separated.

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  648. In fact, what you advocate (‘moving forward’ through conflict resolution, dialogue, and through to ‘redemption’ even) make me think you are little more than an apologist. While you seek to portray this as a ‘woman’s issue’ you are in fact advocating something totally opposite to what most of those who have been abused want, that being the exposure of Sogyal as a fraudulent abuser of women. Your suggestion of dialogue and resolution would bring the very opposite-everything gets glossed over, without too much conflict and without any public nastiness.

    In common with you, I like to justify my view by citing the Buddha (Or in your case, claiming “The Dalai Lama says…..).

    Here’s one for you and all who dream like you from the Sutra Revealing Stainless Renown:

    ‘Those who think that perfect liberation is having abandoned desire, anger and ignorance are those with pride.
    Whoever has no self will naturally liberate desire, anger and ignorance’

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  649. “Tiger Lily, in response to your comment on my “persisting in the face of rudeness,” this has not been personal for me. On a personal level, the attacks by Anonymous have just been silly rantings and I would have simply left the thread.”

    As indeed you repeatedly claimed you were doing but you couldn’t resist coming back to prove the validity of your perspective

    “However, DI presented Anonymous as a “Buddhist Scholar” and I felt compelled to dispel the myth that his/her diatribe has had any resemblance whatsoever to the Buddha Dharma”

    DI mistakenly refer to me as a “Buddhist scholat”, not me. But thats as good an excuse to take the gloves off as any and engage in debate about the negativeness of conflict (er, isn’t that conflict?)

    “As an example, I would like to compare the “gloves off” approach to SR advocated by Anonymous to the approach that Tibetans have been taking to the Chinese. For over 50 years, the Chinese have been killing, torturing, maiming and yes, raping millions of Tibetans– yet, in the face of this, the main approach by the Tibetan government in exile has been to seek dialogue with the Chinese. Dialogue, not arms. This isn’t because they’re weak or non-Buddhist. In fact, most of them probably practice Tantra.”

    Utter nonsense, most Tibetans don’t even meditate-they have faith adn they push beads/ Practicing tantra is a bit more

    “The approach of dialogue with one’s enemy is just one of common sense. It would be silly and counter-productive for Tibetans to take up arms against the Chinese, wouldn’t it?

    Obviously, but your not talking Buddhism here, youre talking conflict resolution. Which scripture refers to ‘dialogue’?”

    “This approach goes much deeper,” (Than that of your superficial opponents? Twilight language to prove your superiority? Wheres the humility?)

    “Once, the situation is viewed in such a common sense way, once dialogue is the goal, then the mindset of the Tibetans must remain calm and open, without excessive hatred, spite or rage. Much as the actions of the Chinese demand outrage and yes, hatred, the approach of the Tibetans must be one of calmness. Hatred must be avoided because hatred is a closed mind, one that sees its object in black and white, in all or nothing terms. The outlook of dialogue can never maintain that the Chinese are “thoroughly evil” because once you take that mindset, resolution is impossible. You have to look for the opportunities and you have to keep an open mind, because the opportunities are often not where you expect them to be”

    Again, this is NOT Buddhism, its therapy. And BTW, count the number of /you have to’s above-I see we’re speaking in the command form, Because we know best?

    “If we approach this situation at Rigpa with our minds closed, as Anonymous is advocating”,
    Where? This is disingenuous manipulation of truth to serve ones personal agenda

    with an all or nothing attitude, with the stance that SR is completely beyond redemptionis (A Christian term which does not feature in any Buddhist scripture-youll be asking us to forgive next), then there’s really no room for any resolve. There’s no room to move forward.

    “There are many good, decent human beings involved with Rigpa”.
    Agreed-but they are not committing the abuse so why resort to such a claim?

    “Things can get very messy with an all or nothing approach. This does not imply we need to be weak. It does not imply that women cannot file suits or stand tall and lodge their grievances. “
    Oh so its a womens issue?

    “This does not imply that X-students cannot step forward with their grievances as well. But we must keep our minds calm and open and free of hatred and spite. Vitriol is counterproductive and totally non-Buddhist.”
    Nobody advocated vitriol, only action and fighting evil-if all ‘fighting’ is bad according to your theory, we shouldn’t fight evil

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  650. If we approach this situation at Rigpa with our minds closed, as Anonymous is advocating

    Devious manipulation of fact for reasons of aggrandisement of ones own position-very spiritual

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  651. “ And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all of them who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
    And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

    — Matthew 21:12-13

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  652. Abuse=simple no big deal.??? Sanctimonious preaching of a Westernized, coffee table Buddhism. The Buddha had balls and wasnt afraid to use them You impose your hippy values on a tradition which is much much more than simply being .nice. When necessary, fight fire with fire

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  653. Common sense. The world would be a much better place to live in if everyone took that approach. Simple, no big deal.

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  654. Tiger Lily, in response to your comment on my “persisting in the face of rudeness,” this has not been personal for me. On a personal level, the attacks by Anonymous have just been silly rantings and I would have simply left the thread. However, DI presented Anonymous as a “Buddhist Scholar” and I felt compelled to dispel the myth that his/her diatribe has had any resemblance whatsoever to the Buddha Dharma.

    As an example, I would like to compare the “gloves off” approach to SR advocated by Anonymous to the approach that Tibetans have been taking to the Chinese. For over 50 years, the Chinese have been killing, torturing, maiming and yes, raping millions of Tibetans– yet, in the face of this, the main approach by the Tibetan government in exile has been to seek dialogue with the Chinese. Dialogue, not arms. This isn’t because they’re weak or non-Buddhist. In fact, most of them probably practice Tantra. The approach of dialogue with one’s enemy is just one of common sense. It would be silly and counter-productive for Tibetans to take up arms against the Chinese, wouldn’t it?

    This approach goes much deeper, however. Once, the situation is viewed in such a common sense way, once dialogue is the goal, then the mindset of the Tibetans must remain calm and open, without excessive hatred, spite or rage. Much as the actions of the Chinese demand outrage and yes, hatred, the approach of the Tibetans must be one of calmness. Hatred must be avoided because hatred is a closed mind, one that sees its object in black and white, in all or nothing terms. The outlook of dialogue can never maintain that the Chinese are “thoroughly evil” because once you take that mindset, resolution is impossible. You have to look for the opportunities and you have to keep an open mind, because the opportunities are often not where you expect them to be.

    If we approach this situation at Rigpa with our minds closed, as Anonymous is advocating, with an all or nothing attitude, with the stance that SR is completely beyond redemption, then there’s really no room for any resolve. There’s no room to move forward. There are many good, decent human beings involved with Rigpa. Things can get very messy with an all or nothing approach. This does not imply we need to be weak. It does not imply that women cannot file suits or stand tall and lodge their grievances. This does not imply that X-students cannot step forward with their grievances as well. But we must keep our minds calm and open and free of hatred and spite. Vitriol is counterproductive and totally non-Buddhist.

    Anonymous will probably deny that he/she has hatred and spite, but if this vitriol isn’t hatred, then what is it?

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  655. Thank you, Tiger Lily, this is precisely where the dialogue needs to be focused– and not just within Rigpa. If such dialogues are engaged in with dignity and respect, I believe that it will be easier to then address the more serious issues of abuse etc. Resolutions happen more easily in an environment such as you have described. Would Rigpa seniors ever be willing? Bella, would they?

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  656. @ Anonymous. I think your tone when you speak to Drolma and other correspondents can be unfortunately discourteous and counter productive. A friend of mine who has posted here has decided not to continue because she also objected to the way you are speaking to Drolma. Otherwise you make some valid points. Since I was the first person to reply to BellaBs link, I must take responsibility for the subsequent thread.
    @ BellaB, indeed, opening a discussion with PG would be a huge step forward.
    @ Drolma. Thankyou for your posts here and for persisting in the face of rudeness! You have contributed some good hometruths and insights.
    Please continue to do so. I agree, most important is to keep an open mind. Forums and emails are not the best way for communications. I hope the time will come when we can sit down face to face and not hide behind psueudonyms.
    I think Rigpa needs a prod to face up to the series of allegations being made against SR and the way Rigpa itself operates. I don’t believe that SR is solely at fault. Undoubtedly his senior students have good qualities, but they should realize that what may work for them is not necessarily going to work for everyone.
    When a student’s brave attempt to transform “impure” vision into “pure vision” blinds them to the repercussions of their actions upon others, it can lead to a distortion of the double mirror existing between student and teacher in a Sangha. This I believe is where Rigpa is going wrong.
    I am an ex-Rigpa person. I care about SR and the difficulties occurring within Rigpa as a Sangha. I feel he has been mislead by his older students (whom he will regard as his friends) into believing his actions are above the law, both worldly Law and the Law of Karma.
    I sincerely hope that Rigpa will encourage challenging debates within the Sangha and not keep trotting out “Whatever Rinpoche does is for your benefit.”
    For a long time now we have heard from those who have not benefited.

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  657. I also object quite strongly to the inference made by Anonymous that mental illness might be a reason for denigrating and discounting someone’s point of view. The mentally ill in our community are too frequently marginalized and it is totally wrong.

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  658. I put that link for DI as a reminder. DI probably doesn’t live too far from that event, and since he has had this page up for years, I thought it would be fair and courageous to go and face up with Patrick and ask him a few questions. Just to have a reality check about said ‘cult’.

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  659. I have never been diagnosed with a mental illness and I do know the DSM IV pretty thoroughly, having diagnosed many people myself. I have never met full criteria for a mental illness either.

    I have had some wild paranormal experiences to do with my spiritual journey, which is what I have referred to above as being “crazy”. But these have all pretty much passed and I don’t put much stock in them anymore. If I had been psychotic (a very western term), I would not be in my present mental stability without the aid of medication and I have never taken any psyche meds.

    So that’s my diagnosis, which I don’t believe is particularly pertinent to this thread. The other refutation I want to make is that I have never denied that I was abused– I don’t know where you read that. What I would say is simply that the fact of my abuse is not proof of the rest, particularly because mine was not sexual abuse.

    I am totally supportive and sympathetic of any woman who comes forward with a story of abuse. As a therapist, I would never risk causing a woman to feel unheard in that way. I would thoroughly back any woman who needs to disclose or feels ready to file suit. In fact, my reason for posting here initially was to create that good, therapeutic environment for hearing stories from women. Anonymous didn’t like that one bit, however. Anonymous has had another agenda from the start, which I don’t trust– this is what I’ve called a vendetta.

    The fact is, all we have so far are allegations and hearsay and anonymous stories of abuse and everyone is just assuming it’s all factual. It’s a done deal. Women need to be heard and believed, but mainly by their near and dear ones and their therapists. Only later do they need the public. Only later do they need justice.

    We have a court system to sort all this out. I prefer to hold judgment.

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  660. Whether one respects someone or not, if they speak the truth, it remains the truth

    Vendetta? Is a legal action instigated by more than one person also a vendetta? Are multiple claims of abuse from multiple, independent sources a vendetta?Simply because almighty you dont like the tone of things, you claim ‘vendetta’?

    “I am not declaring that the testimonies of the women above are untrue– I would never do that to them. Never” THATS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING

    This page has a history of people posting who demonstrate clear symptoms of psychiatric illness. On common characteristic is to first claim abuse occurred, then claim that because of the way some critics express themselves, the claims of abuse are untrue. Your posts are a carbon copy of another posters. Do you deny having suffered episodes of mental illness? Not that its that important but, when someone claims abuse then withdraws that claim so readily, one certainly wonders as to what is going on and why they post.Do tell

    Again, several women have posted here with first hand experience of abuse at the hands of Sogyal. Are these people all liars or fools being manipulated by the evil Mary F? Are we all really that weak mentally?

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  661. So you deny you have suffered such?

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  662. One relies on the words of those whom one has learned to respect. One respects those who speak in balanced, coherent ways, in ways that are congruent with truth and decency.

    My complaint here is that this is sounding more like a vendetta than an honest dialogue. I have been wondering just recently whether Mary Finnigan, after almost 20 years of her investigation into this affair, could have lost her objective view. Once the motivation strays from an honest interest in the truth, once it becomes a vendetta, then perception becomes skewed and trouble starts. I am not declaring that the testimonies of the women above are untrue– I would never do that to them. Never. But there’s something going on here that makes me very uncomfortable and so I am calling everything into question.

    The fact that I have the courage to admit that I have been wrong is not a weakness. Self-criticism is vitally important in the quest for truth. One has to be able to look at one’s own perceptions constantly and assess them continually. This is called introspective awareness in Buddhism. It is the foundation of self-growth.

    If changing one’s mind, or being wrong and admitting it, were signs of mental illness, then we’re all in trouble, aren’t we?

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  663. This is beginning to sound very much like Sheila

    She too had very obviously suffered from psychological imbalance, with what appeared to be NPD. I would suggest that the decision you have made to get back on the fence and publicly claim that the whole thing is possibly fantasy is an indication of a similar imbalance.You have already openly indicated you have passed through difficult psychological phases. I suggest this is a manfiestation of such

    Perhaps yout think that changing your mind is something that means reality changes but actually that is getting things the wrong way round-Denying a misdemeanour after it happened does not mean it didnt happen.I am afraid you place too much importance on your own opinions in this case

    Again, the manner in which something is said displeases you so you choose to change your opinion. Think: If I whisper Hitler was responsible for the death of millions of Jews, then shout it as loud as I can, does that then render it untrue?Of course not.

    As they say, dont rely on the sound of the voice or the reputation of the teacher, rely on the meaning of the words

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  664. Not at all. I still object to the abusive methods I have seen SR employ. I still object to my own lama madness, my own blindness as his “student”, which caused me and my family years of distress. I still believe that we need to be much stronger and more critically aware students of Dharma in the West. I am open to the possibility that women have been sexually abused by SR, in a criminal way. I am open to the allegations being true. It certainly fits with what I have seen of him.

    But I’m jumping off the bandwagon, which has begun to stink. I am open to the possibility that the allegations are faulty as well. This is why we have a legal system, which sometimes works.

    I also know that everytime I have been directly involved in a story run in the press, there have been gross inaccuracies. Years ago, because of the convincing nature of the press, I, like many others in Australia, believed that Lindy Chamberlain had killed her baby. The poor woman went to prison for years before they realized that there was inadequate evidence. Her life was ruined.

    So I’m just saying we need to be more careful– and I don’t like the wretched negativity being unleased here. It makes me wonder if I’m smelling a rat. The same critical skepticism that I advocate for myself as a Dharma student, I also advocate in this case.

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  665. Dear Drolma,

    Does this now mean you are no longer trusting your own experiences of Rigpa, as per your accounts below?

    Drolma, on February 18, 2012 at 9:02 pm said:

    “Once in the heyday of my lama madness, I took one of my daughters and a friend to a Rigpa teaching. This daughter of mine is very sweet tempered and has a strong sense of right and wrong. After the teaching, she complained loudly to me about SR’s behavior during the teaching. It was his usual, common behavior of verbally tearing apart one of his students and so of course, I defended his actions. I told my daughter that it was not for me to judge the actions of a great lama towards senior students. That he had some higher purpose.

    I am still ashamed of myself for what I said to my daughter. What sort of mother had I become, to tell my daughter, my daughter who lives by a strong creed of non-harming, who rarely even loses her temper, that it is OK to insult and shout at someone in front of a group of people? How jaded was I becoming?”

    Drolma, on February 21, 2012 at 8:53 pm said:

    “But does that excuse the abuse of even one woman? I personally am still reeling from my time with Rigpa 13 years ago. I had years and years when I could have been practicing Dharma and instead I was smoking and drinking and just trying to return to the ordinary, sane woman that I was before walking in the door of my first Rigpa retreat.

    This thread is about human suffering, BellaB. I keep having to remind you of this.”

    So this is not “proof” for you now?

    Regards,
    sankappa

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  666. I thought I had learned my lesson about jumping on the bandwagon all those years ago with Lindy Chamberlain. We have to be so careful.

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  667. I have to say that the sordid, malicious tone of this thread has made me stop in my tracks and start questioning. And questioning more. As you say, Bella, there is no proof. If this mindset is the source of the allegations of abuse, then I disbelieve everyone of them.

    I just don’t know anymore, I just don’t know.

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  668. Er, well that well didnt it Chogy baby???Physician heal thyself or what?

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  669. bellaB, on March 10, 2012 at 12:34 pm said:
    The Wisdom of Abuse
    Awakening the Lingam, Opening the disciples blouse
    A weekend with Sogyal Lhakar
    Dublin, 17-18 March 2012
    ( St. Patrick’s Weekend )
    Who said there are no snakes in Ireland?

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  670. bellas response to women opening their hearts and claiming abuse-place an advert for rigpa What next-adverts for the National Socialists Party in the Jewish Gazette? Warning: bella works for Sogyal and does not accept any criticism of the little fat man, who is perfect and ‘never harmed anybody’

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  671. Ah yes, Mr PG….”He walks like an angel, talks like an angel, but he’s the devil in disguise”…so the song goes, or like it. Anyway it sprang into my nasty samsaric mind when I followed the above link. For surely he more than any other senior student at Rigpa ought to have intervened and advised SR to stop his sexual activities that are harming women. He set the trend for self-abasement and it is his example that many Rigpa students follow.
    Come on now, it’s not too late to change things, to admit that recent testimonies of women who have felt themselves harmed only go to show that the methods of teaching Vajrayana at Rigpa are far from infallible.
    If it is really the case as BellaB states above that SR publically announced he is not harming anybody, it makes me worry that he is suffering from delusions of grandeur and being encouraged to hold that belief.
    PG is indeed one of his oldest students and trusted friend so please PG do the decent thing, own up to the collective mistakes of Rigpa and SR both. SR needs real friends now, who aren’t afraid to spell out the truth.

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  672. The Wisdom of Compassion

    Awakening the Mind, Opening the Heart
    A weekend with Patrick Gaffney

    Dublin, 17-18 March 2012
    ( St. Patrick’s Weekend )

    http://www.rigpa.ie/lang-en/component/content/article/86-featured/460-wisdom-of-compassion-march-2012.html

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  673. Apparently, International Womens Day had to be put back 24 hours-they all turned up late (For Drolma)

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  674. What about this for an idea?: Today is International Women’s Day, and thinking of what Drolma was writing about the DL recently: “And I love it every time I hear HH Dalai Lama say that there’s a good chance he might incarnate as a woman.”

    The D.L. is very well informed about Sogyal’s abusive behavior but it doesn’t seem to bother him and by endorsing Sogyal the DL effectively becomes complicit in that abuse.
    I can’t help thinking how ironic it would be if he was a young woman now and met with Sogyal and had the same experience as many young women have had. I wonder if he would be so indifferent.

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  675. Drolma sweety, you clearly have too much time on your hands-trawling through my posts and gathering the bits that you find distasteful means youre not in the kitchen after all (thats a joke to appeal to your feminist sensibilities BTW-not serious)
    The final sentence in your penultimate post encouraged women to speak out. Yet in your ultimate post you spoke very discouragingly about doing any such thing??? if you had been here for a while, you would know that many who have posted on the Sogyal thread have come to the conclusion that the only real way forward is a class action-I suspect this might be the answer to the problem you suggest and it is this that I was advocating, along with going to the media. I feel sure DI will put you in contact with others interested in doing such a thing though, since I do not work for DI, I cannot speak for them.
    As for most of your tantric advice, I note that, having completed your Kagyu ngondro under duress, you have taken as your tantric guide, several books by the Dalai Lamai rather than developing a close personal relationship with a qualified teacher with whom you can communicate regularly. The pitfalls and misunderstandings that you will encounter as a result such actions are too many to list.’Teach yourself tantra’ books are not a viable option and I can already tell from your responses that you are (no doubt, like myself) missing some of the finer points.
    Can I suggest that for your sake and everyone elses, you bite the bullet and try finding a trustworthy guru to whom you can devote yourself. Perhaps on the basis of your having been burned so badly you will err on the side of caution this time.
    Strange isnt it:in Tibet they advised people to spend twelve years assessing a prospective guru. In the West, some people dont event take twelve hours before jumping into such an important relationship. ‘Off the shelf’ is a myth promoted by greedy Tibetan and Western authors

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  676. If there are any women who have been abused still reading this post, I would like to clarify my position on filing criminal charges. While on one hand, this would resolve the situation, on the other hand, I would never have the temerity to advocate that any woman file charges– nor would I encourage any woman to go through the ordeal.

    When I was working my internship in mental health as a clinician on a crisis team, I was called in to the ER once to speak to a woman who had been raped. In my clumsiness as an intern, I encouraged her to file criminal charges. Whereupon she glared at me and said, “You haven’t been raped yourself and you have no right to tell me to file charges.”

    I was quite ashamed and she was totally right. To sit in a witness box and retell the horrid experiences of sexual abuse to strangers and to the abuser himself is not something I could ever do– and how much more difficult would this be if the abuser was someone as formidable as SR himself? If the abuser was someone you had trusted with your spiritual wellbeing?

    So I bow to any woman who has the courage to give testimony and file those criminal charges. She is a much greater woman than I am.

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  677. Another Anonymous, you haven’t really answered my question: What is the forceful action you keep alluding to? If it is lawful speaking out and filing criminal charges, then we are in complete agreement and there is no need for further debate.

    However, your previous entries have had a distinctly more sinister note: “Fighting fire with fire”, “Welcome to last resort time”, “Lord help those who get in the way. Here cometh the purgatory fires for those who abuse others”, ” these charlatans…have to be handled with the gloves off”

    However, if by those comments you mean that we should engage in forceful, lawful actions while keeping a compassionate motivation towards all, then I am in complete agreement.

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  678. Drolma.stated
    on March 5, 2012 at 11:32 am
    And it’s time for me to bow out of this conversation.-and then immediately posted again

    Drolma, on March 7, 2012 at 11:56 am said:
    I would like to bring this tattered, nonsensical thread to a close

    Drolma, on March 8, 2012 at 12:55 pm said: etc etc etc

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  679. Ah yes, like President Assad of Syria.
    PS nice try at divide and rule in your previous post
    Keep up the good work protecting the abuser

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  680. I saw a sexual dream about a movie star. Is that movie star an abuser?

    Did that movie star abuse me?

    SR said publicly and really strongly that he is not harming anybody.

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  681. “In my mind, the only course of action in this situation, that will ever forcefully resolve things in a lawful way, is for women who have been abused to step forward and file criminal charges. This has been the general consensus amongst many of us on this thread. Do you have some better idea?
    What other courses of forceful actions are you alluding to? Do you have specifics?”

    MY POINT ALL ALONG-DONT YOU READ WHAT YOU WRITE?

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  682. In fact, the very injunction you speak of so frequently, the injunction to deal forcibly with harmful beings, is the very reason I have not been able to exit this thread. I am compelled by my vows to speak out as strongly as I can against your malicious and harmful vitriol.

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  683. What is your point? If you want women to speak out, they need a safe space in which to do so. I made a few personal disclosures earlier about a difficult time in my life and was subjected to a volly of abuse from you. You certainly are not one who encourages speaking out!

    I don’t have a clue what it is you’re getting at. In my mind, the only course of action in this situation, that will ever forcefully resolve things in a lawful way, is for women who have been abused to step forward and file criminal charges. This has been the general consensus amongst many of us on this thread. Do you have some better idea?

    What other courses of forceful actions are you alluding to? Do you have specifics?

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  684. Blame blame.You say you are doing this in order to help women and not from a religious perspective. However, you quote religious principles as your ‘therapy’, the very same religious principles that have deterred people for decades from either speaking out or publicly condemning abusers. As I observed before, as soon as you are questioned on this, your so called principles go out the window and you launch into the vitriol that characterises your responses when your ‘therapies’ are questioned.

    Isnt it a little strange that, when someone who claims to have been abused is advised to speak out, their response is to advocate silence and attack the source of the advice, equating them with the abuser. Battered wife syndrome comes to mind

    As for “You say you do this in the name of Tantra” (sic-tantra does not have a capital ‘t’), where exactly? I suggested that people who have been abused within a tantric tradition apply tantric principles to remedy it. Patience and tolerance, sutra based principles that have led to those with only a partial understanding of the buddhist path becoming complicit in the concealing of abuse for decades should not apply. Tantric vows take precedence over bodhisattva vows, just as they in turn take precedence over pratimoksha vows. If you are a Buddhist you should know this.

    The vow states that:
    “(10) Being loving toward malevolent people

    Malevolent people are those who despise our personal teachers, spiritual masters in general, or the Buddhas, Dharma, or the Sangha, or who, in addition, CAUSE HARM OR DAMAGE TO ANY OF THEM Although it is inappropriate to forsake the wish for such persons to be happy and have the causes for happiness, we commit a root downfall by acting or speaking lovingly toward them. Such action includes being friendly with them, supporting them by buying goods they produce, books that they write, and so on. If we are motivated purely by love and compassion, and possess the means to stop their destructive behavior and transfer them to a more positive state, we would certainly try to do so, even if it means resorting to forceful methods”

    Now you are a qualified beginner, it is right that you should know that

    I am motivated by love and compassion on this issue. Not for Sogyal but for the beings he has abused, and all those his behaviour has driven away from the precious dharma ie not the one, but the many

    Again, as a ‘tantrika’ you should know that our path is not about the suppression of emotions and personal characteristics. What we perceive as malice and sarcasm for instance, could just as easily be one of the five wisdoms. I am happy with my naturalness. if others cannot accept it because it doesnt fit in with their predetermined ideas of what constitutes ‘buddhist’ behaviour, that is their problem. Chao baby.

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  685. My primary goal in participating in this dialogue has been to help develop an atmosphere of human decency, respect and trust so that women who have been abused could feel safe to come forward with their stories. This appraoch is not particularly Buddhist; it’s just the right way to behave, the proper approach to dialogue.

    Anonymous/Guest/No Scholar, I don’t know what your aim has been but this is no longer a safe place for people to open their hearts and speak honestly. You have torn that safety to shreds with your vitriol.

    You say you do this in the name of Tantra. Let us be very clear: Women have been, and are being, sexually abused, frequently in the name of Tantra. This is very dangerous ground you’re on. I am not the abuser, I have never harmed you, and yet somehow I have become the target of your insults and sarcasm and malice. It is totally uncalled for.

    And by the way, Bella, it was a Kagyu Ngondro I finished. I allow myself a little bit of (unafflicted) pride about it because it was completed under duress and because a little pride goes a long way in healing from abuse.

    Funny isn’t it, Anonymous/Guest/No Scholar, how you’re caught in the great cause of punishing the abuser and yet have become quite the abuser yourself.

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  686. Yeah,like Marpa-how awful for you bella Lord forbid that the guru should destroy our ego-where would we be without it? Oh yeah: nirvana!

    Drolma and Vera I guess the thing is we dont see the distinction between the advice thats for how we should conduct ourselves internally (compassion etc) and the way we should behave outwardly towards those who harm others (wrathfully where appropriate) its a question of combining the two I would suggest-I advocate the sharp edge because everyone else is so lovey dovey……to a fault
    -balance is required
    To heal oneself, compassion
    To dispel negativity-wrath

    If you cant see thats Buddhism, then I see no point in dialogue

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  687. If Drolma has been in Rigpa finishing her Ngondro, then she was there a while. I also believe she has some love in her heart despite or because of having been a student of certain person – and even though she has turned her heart away from SR, she still is able to have an open heart. Some ‘scholars’ may ‘know every rule’ of one book they’ve read, but do they have any understanding at all?

    I have faced some Buddhists who are really cold, ego-crushers of the worst kind.

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  688. Then you are a beginner on the path It is a common contemporary mistake to consider yourself to have ‘finished’ the ngondro and a demonstration of the spiritual naivety rampant in the West I ‘finished’ decades back, However, in emulation of the great masters such as His late Eminence Dilgo Khyentse,Rinpoche, I continue to repeat them alongside my main practice. I had a Tibetan colleague in India in the 80s who had done 11 million prostrations-He didnt think he had ‘finished’ Now you are qualified to begin the practice, I suggest you study your tantric vows, in particular the tenth root downfall

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  689. Oh and I have finished my Ngondro– I think that was about eight years ago.

    Sorry, DI, I’m only human.

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  690. Maybe instead of quoting HH chapter and verse, you would be better learning your tantric vows (and No personal attacks please, courtesy in response DI Moderation:)xxxx up before you embarrass yourself further-“I have been studying from HH Dalai Lama for several hours a day for seven years now” Still new to this game then “Tantra was never meant to be a public subject.” So why discuss your understanding of it on public forums

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  691. Perhaps then you could explain why Drolma referenced bella? You are free to come and go as you please, all I was saying is that drolma is from our perspective addressing
    the thread whereas I felt the Buddhist scholar was not. So please address them about your concerns not me. It seems to be a dialectic process. But stop this throwing the toys out of the pram stuff and then coming back for more!

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  692. Guest, there are three commentaries by HH Dalai Lama on Tantra you might want to read before you quote from His Holiness. I have read them all through and nowhere have I found mention of an injunction “against showing a kind face to malicious and harmful people.” In fact, he actually discusses forceful means frequently, both in his public addresses and in his writings. You might want to investigate those. He speaks frequently about the need to respect and love the person even while condemning the person’s deeds. You’ll find that injunction in lots of his teachings– lots of them are on his website: http://www.dalailama.com

    The books are: “Tantra in Tibet’, “Deity Yoga” and “Yoga Tantra”. You also might want to listen to his teaching from the Kalachakra Initiation given last July. In this, he is very explicit that the altruistic intention is the very root of tantra. Before every initiation he gives, he also gives the Bodhisattva vow. He is very clear that compassion and loving kindness form the very root of tantra. Nowhere does he deviate from that. And also during the Kalachakra initiation teaching, he speaks in depth about the need sometimes for what he calls “forceful methods”. You might want to listen to those instructions because they sound nothing like yours. He is very clear that we keep a loving and compassionate concern for the other foremost in our heart, even as we engage in (lawful) forceful means to bring the other’s actions to an end.

    I would never call myself a “Buddhist scholar” but I have been studying from HH Dalai Lama for several hours a day for seven years now and I have some idea about his attitudes. Tantra was never meant to be a public subject. The Buddha taught it in secret to a few advanced practitioners. One reason for the secrecy is because of the dangers in someone misinterpreting the practices as excuses to engage in harmful activities. HH Dalai Lama himself stated that he would not have considered publishing books on the topic except that he realized that the information was becoming widely available and he wanted to dispel misconceptions. So you should read his books and dispel your misconceptions.

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  693. I would like to bring this tattered, nonsensical thread to a close with some positive observations. I visited HH Dalai Lama’s website yesterday and was delighted to find pictures of monks AND NUNS debating as part of his annual spring prayer festival. Their fresh, eager faces, male and female rennunciates together, reminded me that there is a future we can be optimistic about. Things are changing within Tibetan Buddhism. Nuns never debated in Tibet; they were never even fully ordained. All of that is changing. The attitude towards women is changing.

    And I love it everytime I hear HH Dalai Lama say that there’s a good chance he might incarnate as a woman.

    This is all just to say that the horrors we see in the monasteries and Dharma Centers are impermanent. They will come to an end. Of that we can be certain.

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  694. Oh dear Vera, a little bit of scriptural citation and all that love and compassion goes out the window, eh?
    If you use Buddhist advice to suggest its inappropriate to condemn harmful beings, quoting the Dalai Lama as your souce, expect to be challenged.
    The Dalai Lama gives general Buddhist advice for the public-not tantric.
    However, he is from a Tibetan tantric traditrion and therefore holds vows AGAINST showing a kind face to destructive and harmful individuals. Thata why, at the conference of Western Buddhist teachers some years back, a conference called in part becuase of the abusive behaviour, he said that 2If all else fails, name names in newspapers”. Your advice, to others on March 5th and quoting HH stated we should be “warm and generous toward them, by being charitable”

    I would suggest to you that you are offended becuase you have been challenged and proven wrong. Hence your thinly veiled vitriolic attack.

    Maybe follow your own advice:

    Vera, on March 6, 2012 at 7:26 pm said:
    Yes, quite. I won’t be posting here again.

    Or are you imitating your colleague Drolma. who stated

    on March 5, 2012 at 11:32 am
    And it’s time for me to bow out of this conversation.-and then immediately posted again

    Maybe you two can communicate with Drolma off line. That way neither of you will run the risk of preaching inappropriate Dharma for the purpose of protecting sexual and physical abusers?

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  695. DI moderation. This buddhist scholar of yours is very obviously not Bella b or from Rigpa, so to start your post stating the *****ing obvious is strange. I’ve seen enough of your buddhist scholar with multiple poster id being totally rude to people in the name of buddhist debate. When pulled up on it, he launches into an abusive and personalized tirade against Drolma, then attempts to change identity to Guest and defend Anonymous. So no thanks. Good luck with attracting people here because with said buddhist scholar trying to hold his high position and patronising anyone he considers a ‘newbie’ I don’t think you’re going to see much through traffic. Thanks though for trying! Good luck :)

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  696. DI Moderation: Bella has nothing to do with this comment and it does not originate in RIGPA. It is from a Buddhist scholar.
    I believe you were commenting about the abuse issue, where as this person is trying to debate with you about Buddhism. This is not the focus of this thread. So my advice is to ignore their comments and only respond to the issues you are focussing on. You do not need to leave here, because you disagree with them, rather stay on the target and continue with your own experience.

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  697. Tea and cucumber sandwiches at the club this Sunday ladies?
    GrooowwwLLLL!!

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  698. Yes, quite. I won’t be posting here again. Drolma, thanks for your posts it was good to read them and I know I’m not the only one to feel that way. All the very best.x

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  699. No, I just don’t want murder, Vera. I don’t want anymore crimes. Call me paranoid, but this thread is starting to sound pathological.

    “Here cometh the purgatory fires for those who abuse others”? and a tantric vow against being loving towards malevolent people? No thanks.

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  700. Drolma, your interpretation is far more charitable than mine is ;)

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  701. Bella, you might want to talk to your Rigpa friends about what is becoming rather threatening language to my mind. Some caution might be needed perhaps.

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  702. Your misconstruing two opposites-our (Sogyal and I) motives are totally different and will invoke different outcomes. Havent you ever heard of fighting fire with fire? it doesnt always work, in fact it should only be used as a last resort. Welcome to last resort time

    Thanks for the advice Vera. Heres a link http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/practice_material/vows/general_tantra/common_root_tantric_pledges.html

    It links to Common Root Tantric Vows by Alex Berzin, translator to, among others, HHDL-If youve received initiation,take a look at vow 10 (which your advice breaks) Its a vow against being loving toward malevolent people. If youre not an initiate, dont read it Others, MYOB

    Now shut up;)

    PS Drolma, on March 5, 2012 at 11:32 am said:
    And it’s time for me to bow out of this conversation. Things have gone a bit nutty, haven’t they?

    .

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  703. Thanks, Vera, for the note of sanity.

    The last time I ever witnessed such uncontained and wild vitriol as that just given by Guest was by Sogyal himself. Such tirades are his trademark, in fact, aren’t they? I think the idea SR/Guest has is that if you speak illogically, you will break down the victim’s conceptual mind and if you speak pure malice, you will break down the victim’s ego.

    Either way, they’re victims.

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  704. As HHDL says:
    If we can manage to refrain from harming others in our everyday actions and words, we can start to give more serious attention to actively doing good, and this can be a source of great joy and inner confidence. We can benefit others through our actions by being warm and generous toward them, by being charitable, and by helping those in need.

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  705. Guest sounds like Mary or her true believer.

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  706. Well done vera (its sanskrit for heroine)
    Sorry if I upset sensitive people but this is the rough end of Buddhism-these charlatans (Sogyal et al) are the exception to the rule and have to be handled with the gloves off. Normal values of patience, and tolerance are the very reason why these people have gotten away with things for years-a change of position is therefore necessary-Lord help those who get in the way Here cometh the purgatory fires for those who abuse others

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  707. Hi Drolma, if you want to speak to others of like mind, do drop me a line at:

    siobhanmace@yahoo.com

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  708. “I also emphatically disagree with Anonymous saying that SR is totally evil” where? Anon said ‘thoroughly’. SR is a spoilt child, raised by the gentry, perpetuating his lifestyle in the ignorance of others. His Buddha nature is fine-his relative manifestation sucks 100%.

    Again “Anonymous had disparaged my belief in the power of qualities of kindness and compassion in resolving situations. In fact, Anonymous disparaged those qualities completely”

    No he/she didnt. He/she said they were inappropriate in this situation.Thats totally different to what you suggest.If you dont like ‘personal attacks’ [critical observations to the dispassionate] best not falsify evidence against others you perceive to be below your great Buddhist self

    You must have been through a lot of traumatic illness through abuse and then used Dharma to get through it. Well done. Now youve reached the other shore, why not leave the boat behind a little and allow your own wisdom to function.Quoting from your Buddhist bible, chapter and verse means you are still not self-reliant e and still overwhelemed by spiritual ego IMO

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  709. “I was speaking specifically in response to Anonymous, who said that altruism was not a means to protecting one’s children”

    Where; I cant find any such comment. using such to launch into a defensive self aggrandizing rambling sermon on what you believe buddhism to be appears disingenuous

    “Surely, we need to speak kindly amongst ourselves” Agreed-but if you preach nonsense, expect disagreement and challenges-Buddhism is not all ‘calm down’-sometimes shit happens-live with it

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  710. And it’s time for me to bow out of this conversation. Things have gone a bit nutty, haven’t they?

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  711. Guest, your attack is totally out of context. I was speaking specifically in response to Anonymous, who said that altruism was not a means to protecting one’s children– and other’s children. I was speaking about what HH Dalai Lama calls “wise selfishness” because that seemed to be the level on which Anonymous was speaking. The idea is that by being a kind, compassionate, forgiving, tolerant human being, not only do others benefit, but you yourself benefit as well. Anonymous had disparaged my belief in the power of qualities of kindness and compassion in resolving situations. In fact, Anonymous disparaged those qualities completely.

    I also emphatically disagree with Anonymous saying that SR is totally evil– there is nowhere in the Buddhist canon where such an attitude towards any being is advocated. Nowhere in Buddhism is it advised that one should give up on another being. Nowhere is it said that a sentient being is beyond repair.

    In fact, I was speaking with the words of Shantideva, one of the foremost scholars of Mahayana Buddhism, in my heart: “Where would I possibly find enough leather/ With which to cover the surface of the earth?/ Yet (wearing) leather just on the soles of my shoes/ Is equivalent to covering the earth with it.” The idea here, so central in Buddhism, is that the best protection is within our own minds. We have to begin within our own minds. We have to cultivate positive qualities within ourselves.

    HH Dalai Lama frequently advises that we act and speak out against the person’s actions and not against the person him or herself. Anonymous disagreed with this and attacked the idea quite viciously. As for myself, I have taken the Bodhisattva vow– this means that I will never give up on even the smallest of insects, nor even SR himself. This is the essence of Mahayana Buddhism which HH Dalai Lama follows. When I mentioned such an attitude earlier, Anonymous went into a rage and I have been trying to settle that down. I would NEVER disparage another’s Buddhist faith as you have just disparaged mine. We need to keep this discussion sane and level or we are no better than the abuser ourselves.

    In addition, I don’t believe anywhere that I have advocated silence about this. If you read any of my previous entries, I advocate speaking out continuously. I myself cannot speak of my experiences because they cannot be proven and because they mostly occurred in my own mind. I would be labelled crazy and that would be the end of that. I am also wary of encouraging women who have been traumatized to speak out too early, before they have sufficient support or healing.

    Surely, we need to speak kindly amongst ourselves. Calm down.

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  712. Are you really that self-absorbed?Is it really only about you? im so happy for your daughters. However, as a Buddhist, you should be aware that you have been a mother to all beings. Sure, Heal yourself in your own time and then help others-I wont hold my breath while we wait for your achieving your spiritual ambitions(?!), But in the meantime,, you have a duty to protect as many people as you can. And that means staying centred and then folllowing HHs advice to name names in nespapers. If thats the Buddhas advice,, rather than this noble silence garbage (AKA fiddling while Rome burns) then dont tell people to keep their mouths shut-do you know better than the DL?

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  713. Indeed, Anonymous, SR’s actions are a cause for outrage, a call for strong action. I myself was deeply harmed psychologically through my involvement with Rigpa and I am ashamed to say that my involvement with Rigpa caused harm to my daughters as well. If I had concrete criminal charges against SR, I would be filing them. I would file them and accept no lucrative settlement out of court. That is what needs to happen.

    However, I don’t have a concrete case against him, so I cannot protect myself, my children and others’ children as I would like in that way. However, I can heal and I can set an example of healing and strength for my daughters. I have found that the practices of altruism which abound in Buddhism have been invaluable in helping me heal and gain self-confidence. I believe that if I had instead fed my anger all these years, I would be even more mentally disturbed than I was and quite incapable of protecting myself or my daughters or now, my granddaughters.

    My daughters are strong, confident and compassionate adults now. If I have had even a small hand in that, I am quite happy and a little proud. We’ve come through a lot together.

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  714. Newbies with only a few years experience of Dharma telling others how to practice are widespread across the web-this mixing up of the religion they were raised with, with the one they are now world renowned experts in, is a real danger. ‘Lets all keep quiet while those dodgy b***tards who are taking the opportunity provided by widespread ignorance to take advantage of others and gain power and wealth in the process (Kelsang Gyatso, FWBO, Soka Gakkai, Diamond Way, Sogyal etc) run rampant’ screw everyone and everything. Maintaining a noble silence while these people shaft Buddhism and its newfound adherents is not the answer. ‘Name names in newspapers’ said the DL some years back. And now we have the internet.Shut up? NO! SHOUT IT OUT LOUD!

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  715. PS welcome back Shiela

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  716. ‘As a Buddhist’? Bella has persistently denied the veracity of abuse claims here and instead claimed that Sogyal is a worthy source of refuge. In other words, a woman who works for Rigpa is posting here, claiming all references to abuse are lies, all claiming abuse are liars, and then directing the vulnerable straight into the arms of this dreadful man all those vulnerable beings who stumble across this page.’As a Buddhist’, I would advise you to generate a little love and compassion instead of preaching your thinly veiled Christian values and claiming them to be Buddhist. Personally speaking, as a Buddhist, I reckon Sogyal is a thoroughly evil being and those who hide his faults are complicit in abuse-Wake up! Buddhism isnt about ‘being nice’; its about truth and doing what is best for others. Youll be telling us the Buddha taught ‘forgiveness’ and ‘love thy neighbour’ next. What if your neighbour is abusing your kids; forgive and say nothing so other children are abused-whose fault will that be? YOURS!

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  717. I haven’t made up my mind yet. I also think that you people here without knowing MF, Janine or Barlow, consider their words as the truth. It’s also really black and white.

    That is why I brought ThomasKent’s view here, so your solid horror image gets a small crack – and you might wonder, if your view is really the complete truth about SR.

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  718. Anonymous, it doesn’t help the dialogue to speak as you have. We behave no better than the abuser if we start attacking one another. And if we want to speak within the context of Buddhism, we need to always speak first about loving kindness, patience, compassion and tolerance– isn’t that so? Even towards SR, it is his actions and not his person we speak out against.

    At least that’s the approach I try to take, as a Buddhist.

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  719. As ever, bella sees only in black and white-only she knows the truth, and what is truth is only that which accords with her perceptions. Strange isnt it, how someone can claim to be a Buddhist only believes what she herself thinks. The possibility that one man can behave like a saint to one, while a sinner to the other is impossible for her to comprehend. How can a kind father be a cruel husband. how can a friend to one man be an enemy to another…………actually, come to think of it, thats not so hard to understand. Unless of course that one man represents the idea of saviour in your mind. How could the one who helped bella see through the trauma of her own abuse possibly be an abuser???Clearly, bella has construed the message with the messenger and has bought into the whole illusion of the Western cult of guru deification. As my nine year old son observed in relation to a fellow Buddhists guru delusion, ‘Cant they see hes just an ordinary being who knows about extraordinary things?’ Thats right; nine years old;;;;;;;;;;And how old are you bella?

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  720. Nothing is ever simple, is it? There are many in Rigpa who are contented with the way things are, who would never seek to change a thing. It suits them. Probably DI and readers of this thread wonder why there aren’t more women coming forward with testimonies of abuse. Probably they even wonder if that isn’t proof that the allegations are false.

    Indeed, I myself have wondered for 40 years why a close family member of mine, who has been badly abused by her husband, doesn’t leave him. For 40 years, she has suffered and has called me with tales of his abuse, and yet she does nothing about it. I am fairly certain that she will never do anything about it. There is too much pain involved in facing the fact of the abuse, so she lives a double life, complaining to me and others and suffering with him. And recently I have come to realize that she actually receives a measure of comfort from the abuse; it relieves her from taking full responsibility for her life.

    It must be even more difficult for women who are suffering abuse at the hands of those in spiritual power to step forward and face their pain. In Tibetan Buddhism, this is exacerbated by Tantric rules of submission and samaya. It is exacerbated further simply because of how it feels to be around a great lama, even an abusive lama. It feels good sometimes, really good, and we go forward based on those feelings, throwing our critical intelligence out the door.

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  721. Drolma,

    yes, it depends on which image you believe is the correct one. I guess one’s own personal experiences count a bit here too.

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  722. Indeed, Bella, that is how we hope our lamas will behave–that is how we hope to behave ourselves. Believe me, I would be very happy if the picture you paint is the whole truth. The other picture is very painful, is it not?

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  723. Just to remind you:

    “In those twelve years, I never saw Rinpoche act with the least impropriety as regards sex. He traveled tourist class, paid for his girlfriend’s fare himself, and never accepted any gratuity or gift. He usually traveled with a girlfriend, one for two years, one for five. They were not drawn from his students, and they were extraordinary and gifted independent women. At one retreat, I met the wives of two of the Prime Ministers of Australia. He worked constantly and never lived high. He was sometimes brusque and even bullying with rich, powerful students, and always very kind and compassionate with poor students such as myself. During one retreat I saw him give his lunch and his dinner to a girl who was not eating (and I will point out that this was not a girl whom anyone would bed whatsoever, but a street person who, like me, Rigpa let attend retreats free).”

    ThomasKent
    Date Added: 11/04/2011

    http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,100679,page=2

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  724. Mixed motives-we need Dharma, Dharma needs money and publicity so it can spread and help people Problem is, both those things bring out the base motives in people so that they lose sight of what is real and of value-then come manifestations like Sogyal, the NKT. Soka Gakkai and all the f** ups in the US zen scene

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  725. Anonymous, I have long observed that corporations and monasteries do not mix. Why do they continue to build those power bases?

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  726. BellaB, if you ever find that your lama is no longer kind to you, then you might find HH Dalai Lama helpful in navigating your way back to sanity and a belief in decency. All the teachings he gives in Macleod Ganj are available on webcast, at http://www.dalailama.com

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  727. It seems that centres are nowadays the domain of those involved in admin, newbies, and zealots not mature enough to sit and look at their own minds but rather prefer to claim that ‘Only my tradition/teacher/group has got it right-we are the best and all the others are fakes or dilutes’ The sooner people get past these subtle (?) diversions, get their arses on cushions and start dissolving a little, the sooner things will get better. Dont hold your breath ( or do and watch the dream arise and dissolve unendingly) Buddhism is about understanding mind, not corporate success!

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  728. Tiger Lily, you are so right– these are conversations we need to be having. We need to publish these conversations in Shambhala and other Buddhist magazines. We need to speak out and out and out. Those of us who have been around in Dharma Centers long enough know that these troubles have never been limited to Rigpa. However, the seriousness and lethality of the abuses occuring in Rigpa are a call for action. The debaucle from James Ray is not that far removed from where we stand when we let our lamas shout and throw tantrums and treat us with disrespect. It’s just not Dharma.

    Your friend said it so clearly in her email, Tiger Lily. When I was involved with the Kagyu lineage in New York state, all the emphasis was on building big monasteries– but the sangha itself had no idea of itself and was full of squabbles and gossip. And now, they have the big fancy building and fewer and fewer students.

    Recently, I heard HH Karmapa respond to a question about what was to be done about all the troubles in Western Dharma Centers. His Holiness replied, “I can’t answer because I haven’t come to the West to fix things up yet”: Everyone clapped and cheered.

    But we can’t practice Buddhism in the West where we just wait for the highest lama to come and fix things up. In the end we would just have more of the same, more handing over of ourselves.

    Personally, I don’t go to Dharma Centers anymore. It’s something of a family joke that Mum is afraid of lamas, but the reality is I get sick when I go to the centers. I get a little crazy. I find the true Dharma at home. HH Dalai Lama once said that we should build our temples in our hearts and that’s so true.

    But the time has come to speak out. Thank you Vera, Tiger Lily and Anonymous!

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  729. Its down to publicity-the Tibetans wont do a thing about it because they are xenophobic and money driven (Clearly demonstrating BTW that this is a cultural problem born of feudalism rather than being an inherent flaw in the faith) Like HH said, ‘If all else fails, name names in newspapers’. Since DI highlighted the Sogyal issue, much has happened (articles, tv programme, denials from rigpa) but still, its not enough. People need to warn to others and guide them away from this horrrible littel sex crazed power crazed ego maniac

    However, we only have ourselves to blame for this debacle, going in with our eyes wide shut and our reasoning on hold because of our Shangrila syndromes. So dont blame the Tibetans-we walked right into their little game

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  730. Drolma and Vera,
    Thank goodness that more people are speaking out about the need to effect change in the way Tibetan Buddhism is transplanted in the West.
    It’s like we’ve all reached saturation point and have decided enough is enough.
    Vera, you drive home the point of how gullible Westerners can be. We are just asking for trouble!
    Here is a clip from an email I received from a friend.

    “I still think that change, and a clean-up act, must come from within the Tibetan community itself – as it probably would have happened naturally and slowly in a few centuries if China had not taken over Tibet … to my mind, the sudden and unprepared and unruly propagation of T. Buddhism to the west is more a curse than a boon – and Lamas were so unprepared that they zeroed in on the worse of what the West had to offer, (money, sex and superficiality) and had no time to effect the changes in the worse of what Tib, Buddhism had to offer (hyerarchy, secrecy, sectarian pettiness, male supremacy and abuse in monasteries, besides superstition and magic). The proliferation of Centers in the West, and monasteries (actually marketed as schools for orphans by some Lamas) is like a crazy storm, going out of hand ! Sometimes it frightens me. And the proliferation of students joining in droves, most of them having neither the slightest idea why, nor the motivation… that is frightening too. To my mind – a big mess.”

    Yesterday I was talking about the whole issue with another woman friend (also a long term practitioner) who emphasized the need for us Westerners to take responsibility ourselves and educate newer students about the dangers of what can happen in Dharma centres and the true meaning of Guru Yoga which is definitely not about giving your power away.
    As I agree with the clip above, I also feel the change must at the same time come about inside the Dharma Centres…from inside out.
    Ten years ago I was shut up whenever I voiced my concerns. Shut up even by people who are now joining their voices. I do think a wave of opinion is spreading. It began with whispers and now is turning into some excellent discussions and articles. More and more people are getting together to not only talk, but to look for ways of doing something to bring about change.
    I really like your clear vision Drolma, of Westerners settling for nothing less than impeccable behaviour from their Teachers and pure kindness.
    At the end of the day it is all about the work we do ourselves with our Practice.
    The methods that Sogyal and others apply simply do not work. How will a student deal with being berated/beaten/humiliated in public? To countermand the hurt and misery, they will twist it into joyous reasoning that the Master has taken notice of them. They are not just one in a roomful of hundreds, they have been singled out as being special.
    This I fear is the horribly dysfunctional trap some Rigpa students can end up being caught in. And why does Sogyal do it? Because no-one is stopping him.

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  731. Stop bella baiting, Anonymous. We had a sane discussion going on here for once. For someone who likes to hide his identity you really shouldn’t start outing people like that. Incase you hadn’t noticed, she’s not posted for a while.

    I’m bowing out again. Drolma, thanks for the lucidity.

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  732. Removed. All of her posts say this: All Sogyals vicitms are liars and fantasists, Mary Finnegan is a demon. Bella is a victim of abuse herself and has clearly become somewhat guru/christ like saviour figure dependant,As such, she is incapable of rational conversation since to admit to imperfections in Sogyal would be to admit that he was equal to those who abused her Rational debate is pointless since she is completely blind to any faults in her saviour so dont waste your time If Sogyal were to violate a child in front of her she would probably suggest it was a blessing

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  733. Drolma ..it’s not just Rigpa people with damaged pasts go to. There is a whole market of things available for the wounded heart. Sadly, they often choose the path that demands more hardships. I remember in the 70’s there was a movement called EST which was hugely popular. Why? Because you had to pay loads of dosh and then had to remain in one space all wkend -trips to toilets forbidden, lots of abuse and so on. Some came out extolling it’s virtues. Actually, I think Werner somebody who invented it, transformed it into the Landmark. There are people who will pay large sums of money to undergo awful experiences in the belief they will be transformed by it. It brings to mind some new age guru who mimicked a shamanic rite and ended up with a few dead students on his hands as the smoke in the tents suffocated them. So, I guess Rigpa is probably pretty mild in comparison.

    I was going to say-Tibetans we know don’t have the same degree of self-hate a lot of us have. I don’t need to quote what HHDL said to some therapist who asked him about low self-esteem in students. He didn’t understand the question.

    So what should be done? Is it put up and shut up, or ship out? Yes, if you are in Rigpa that is the answer. Hence why so many leave.

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  734. And Vera, I really agree with your observation about people coming to Rigpa with histories of abuse etc. SR says regular Buddhist methods are “too slow” for him. However, as a trained therapist myself, I have a very healthy respect for the need to proceed at a client’s own pace. You can really damage a person by opening up wounds too fast. Every therapist knows that.

    Also, your comment about one size fits all is so congruent with the Buddha himself who taught differently to suit the dispositions and needs of students. It is so true.

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  735. Vera, yes indeed the Tibetan Buddhist tradition has examples of teachers using extreme methods to tame students, such as Marpa with Milarepa. But for goodness sake, Milarepa came to be purified of multiple murders– he was a highly advanced student who had gone astray and his relationship with Marpa was quite unique. Even so, Marpa’s wife and others complained bitterly to Marpa about his treatment of Milarepa and when Milarepa reached a point where he was ready to commit suicide, Marpa relented and gave him teachings.

    This is one instance, not a mainstream Buddhist method of taming the mind. This is not even a method that Marpa used with other students. For every one of these stories of harsh student taming, there are multiple stories of lamas’ extreme kindness, patience and compassion with their students. The stories of Milarepa and his students, for example, are filled with kindness and compassion. He was not a brutal lama himself.

    And for goodness sakes, look at HH Dalai Lama. I have never seen a harsh word come out of his mouth. Sometimes he might tease someone, such as Robert Thurman who has been his student for many years, but the interchange is filled with warmth and humor. The message I have through years of being his student myself is that the bond between teacher and student is far too precious and tender to ever be up for public display or humiliation. When a monk serves His Holiness tea during a teaching, he makes a beautiful gesture of thanks and respect everytime. His approach to all never changes, never veers from one of constant respect and warmheartedness. Surely when we choose to follow a teacher, we want to choose someone who has qualities such as these.

    In the years since leaving Rigpa, I have discovered that the Buddha’s teachings actually work, they don’t need embelishing or modernizing. My self-hatred, for example, that had flourished in the Rigpa environment, has diminished through practice and study of the Buddha’s teachings. It is being replaced by self-confidence and self-respect. I have learned to respect myself as a bi-product of the precious Buddhist training to cherish others more than myself. I have learned self-confidence through compassion and transparency. Truly, I don’t need a lama to beat my self-cherishing/clinging habits out of me. I just need him to teach me the precious methods of the Buddha. Why do lamas feel they have to reinvent the Buddha?

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  736. I don’t know enough about hazing-though just Wikki’/d it. I know the tradition has wonderful examples of extreme teaching methods. e.g Milarepa and the house building and destruction as one example. However, I can’t help but wonder with regard to public humiliation /sexual abuses and beatings about it’s efficacy…I would have thought different methods for different students..but this isn’t the case. In our times too, when people are already afflicted through upbringing, often with abuse in the family setting, how effective it can be. It may just be more of the same, and I suppose in that sense, comfortably familiar..as in known. Often people are seeking out a spiritual path are doing so, sometimes as an alternative to therapy, or because their egos are already pretty fractured. Sometimes, we need to build a healthy sense of self, and I can’t see this method an effective way of doing that. I also witnessed the shy person remaining just as shy afterwards.

    When you are within Rigpa you accept it, cos you are told it’s alright, it’s compassionate, it’s a teaching. You go along with it. I know how it works.

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  737. Vera, what you describe is very much like hazing, isn’t it? It’s like an initiation into a fraternity.

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  738. Thanks for your posts, Drolma. You speak a lot of good sense. Totally agree with much of what you say, especially:

    “Every student who remains at Rigpa is declaring to him/herself that it is OK to diminish the self worth of a human being in public. It is OK to humiliate a human being in public.”

    After someone was humiliated, (or in anticipation of such an event) students would be told how the student in question had given permission for this, as they were being worked with.Not a lot you can say to that, but it was very uncomfortable. I remember in particular an extremely shy older student being torn off a strip and it was excruciating to bear witness. Ok, so this person didn’t mind, apparently.
    However, it was never visible to me, that it had had a positive effect upon the person/people. Rather, it increased the stress on those students, who could be seen running round like headless chickens, trying to get everything right, to prevent the tirade. They never did get it completely right. If there were an abundance of enlightened elder students I guess you might say fair play. Instead there is a manufactured and fabricated exterior, compassionate smile, and slow talking, lots of eye contact and so on….never quite rings true. It worries me that abuse can be seen as a path to enlightenment…or that what appears as abuse to 99% of his audience, is you are told, not really abuse but just wrathful compassion, and the person on the receiving end, feels very differently about it. It worries me that therapists who in any other position be speaking out against such acts of public humiliation, can be complicit and collude with it, in their silence. I guess, I never got it, and they did. ie. the point of the apparent public humiliation.

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  739. Today in my study, I was re-listening to the teaching HH Dalai Lama gave last July in DC before the Kalachakra initiation. This was about the time the Canadian Documentary about SR’s abuses of women, was being aired. His Holiness spoke of how there were lamas these days– or Dharmarajas as he called them– in China and Mongolia and the west who were mainly interested in money and sex. He said that a Chinese man had come to him and asked him to do something about it. His Holiness said, “What can I do? I cannot do anything.”

    He then said that it was crucially vital for students of Buddhism today to “thoroughly check” before taking on a lama as a teacher. He said, “Even me, you need to check me.” He said prospective students needed to have “long noses” and investigate the lama thoroughly over months not days. Only then should they commit to the lama.

    This is not new. I have heard His Holiness say this many times.

    And how I wish there was more room for this sort of cautiousness in Rigpa. The air in the teachings from the very beginning is all about SR, all about the teacher. Isn’t it? All about his rules and wishes and moods and tantrums.

    When SR shouts and insults people in public, he tears some fabric of who we are as kindhearted human beings. If you are a new student, you either never come back to Rigpa after this experience or you come back on new terms of what it means to be a decent human being. You come back as a compromised human being who is in no position whatsoever to investigate the lama. You have already forfeited that ability. You are already numbed to your better self, which is the self we need so desperately if we are to make accurate assessments of a situation. Every student who remains at Rigpa is declaring to him/herself that it is OK to diminish the self worth of a human being in public. It is OK to humiliate a human being in public. It is OK, as in the case of the woman whom he molested in front of 250 people at a retreat, to abuse a woman in public.

    These are not wild allegations, BellaB. These are regular experiences of Rigpa students. Because these are regular and commonplace occurances in Rigpa retreats, it is not a very huge leap to imagine this same lama sexually and physically abusing women in more private situations. He has already torn the fabric of human decency.

    All of us– and I include myself from the years of my lama madness– become numbed to our better selves when we participate in such abuses. We participate simply by sitting through them. And then we can’t listen to the higher calling of our Buddha nature, the nature that cannot sit still while another human being is suffering. Then we cannot access our highest intelligence, the intelligence of critical inquiry. Then we cannot practice Dharma.

    In the depths of my lama madness, if any one of my lamas had told me that a blue vase was red, I not only would have believed him, I would have created an entire logic in my own mind to convince myself of the fact. I would not even have questioned. I had given up my higher self.

    So that’s my complaint, Bella.. That’s my fear for students and the Dharma in Rigpa.

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  740. “On the other hand, there are students with integrity and decency within Rigpa who are practicing true Dharma whom we must respect.”

    Tell this to your bodhisattva-Mary, who calls us plants and zombies.

    SR is NEVER talking of paranormal things. If you have been in his teachings you should know this. It’s almost like so that you should not dwell on such issues.

    I am what I am. I never drink herbal tea, but black coffee and lead an ordinary life of work and eternal study. I have been visiting ONE single time the psychic person, because he was recommended to me by a Buddhist, who is not in Rigpa. I shouldn’t have mentioned this, of course. Only lamas can have psychic abilities, nobody else.

    Asking questions is not denied, one is asked to hold their questions in heart. If hundreds of people asked questions, like we all would like to ask at times, how would he be able to answer? I have sent him questions in pieces of paper many times. If I had an important personal matter, I was also able to ask him in person at the end of a teaching.

    Well, during the three year retreat and also in home retreats the going through a whole text happened. We went through Bodhicharyavatara, all Ngondro texts, the three root practices and after that I don’t know, since the Dzogchen began.

    Here are some texts:

    http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Category:Texts

    Maybe it’s more inexpensive to hold a shedra in the East. They study Tibetan too, so they really learn those texts directly from Tibetan Khenpos, like Khenpo Namdrol. I guess it’s quite a challenge for a Western person to study texts while working, but I have no idea what plans they have for Shedra West. Many of those translators and scholars who could teach the texts spend their winters in the Shedra East, still learning themselves.

    About transparency: I think he has mentioned the accusations multiple times in different ways during his teachings. He is one of the most direct person I know. Isn’t it also the reason why he gets into trouble: he says things that lamas don’t ordinarily say, people don’t ordinarily say. Political correctness is not his way. He talks about things that are very *hush hush* among the cultural relativist elite. How come you have forgotten all this if you have been in his teachings, many times?

    I find myself repeating all this again and again when a ‘new’ person appears here. I wrote the response, where all the main arguments are. I’m not going to shut up, before the truth is out there. Finnigan’s stories are not the truth and she is just coloring things up, so that the reality keeps getting more and more difficult to grasp. I’m always sorry for people who end up trapped in her nets. Find another source for the reality.

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  741. BellaB, I know for a fact that lamas do not investigate each other. It’s a creed. It proves nothing. Look at the trouble HH Dalai Lama has had simply speaking out against the very dangerous practice of Shugden and the New Kadampa system. People call him a separatist.

    Certainly, lamas need to be able to do their work without other lamas snooping around and interfering. It would certainly be an infinite regress if a student could approach a new lama with a complaint about a previous lama and start investigations and squabbles within the lineages. I learned that myself– and Mary certainly learned that with HH Dalai Lama. (Though I believe that having SR attend her meeting with His Holiness was a good approach, if SR had been interested in being kind and transparent.) We expect Tibetan Buddhism to be like the Catholic Church, with disciplinary channels, but this is not the case.

    So, as HH Dalai Lama has said on numerous occasions, it is up to us, the students, to investigate and question the lama. If there is corruption or unethical behaviors by the lama we need to expose it fearlessly and honestly. The lama, in his turn, needs to be transparent. I ask, again and again: Where is Rigpa’s transparancy?

    To do what Mary is doing, to give abused and silenced students a voice, is the work of a bodhisattva. We must stand strong for true Dharma in the west. We must be fearless. We must insist on ethical discipline and honest transparency in our Dharma Centers. You have no business denigrating Mary’s relationship with her lama in the manner that you have, Bella. I would never denigrate your relationship with SR in such a manner.

    And that is exactly what makes this situation so troublesome. Students are being abused, students are being turned away from the Dharma because of SR’s actions, so we must speak out. On the other hand, there are students with integrity and decency within Rigpa who are practicing true Dharma whom we must respect. Nothing is one way or the other, is it? Nothing is simple as we would like it to be.

    Personally, I believe that SR simply has far too many students for his capabilities. If he kept to the students he could work closely with (and didn’t need to abuse!) things would be a lot better all round. Is it possible? Can he redeem himself without addressing things directly? I doubt it.

    Because of having so many students, there is a great tendency within Rigpa to overly trust in paranormal experiences. Everyone is jockeying to be close to the lama, but few actually work closely with the lama. And then we are told at teachings that we cannot ask questions, but if we hold our questions in our heart, they will be miraculously answered. There is a very great danger saying such things to naive new students in the west. They’ll start drinking herbal tea and rolling dice and going to psychics. This is not Dharma.

    HH Dalai Lama, who also has great numbers of students, often begins his teachings with a complete denial of any miraculous abilities. Then he teaches from a classic Buddhist text. The material is frequently quite difficult and we have to use our intellect to the fullest. He rarely teaches bits and pieces of a text, unless there is a shortage of time, but teaches word by word through the entire text. This grounds any tendencies students might have to fly off thinking that the Dharma is ever about dreams or miracles or sudden realization of the mind’s nature.

    I personally believe that a lot of Rigpa’s troubles could have been resolved if SR had ever taught in this traditional Tibetan manner. Perhaps I am wrong, but does SR ever teach a text from beginning to end? I’ve seen him tag his personal brand of Dharma with quotes from the great masters but never teach through a text from beginning to end (which would entail passages on ethics)

    And what has happened to the western shedra?

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  742. Message exchanges at google groups 1999 (13 years ago):

    Mary Finnigan wrote:
    > >BTW- so long as we are back in correspondence, I am curious. What does
    > >Namkai Norbu Rinpoche think about your spreading malicious gossip about his
    > >dear friend Sogyal Rinpoche?
    > More tabloid slurp. From what Norbu has said to me, I do not get the impression that he regards Sogyal as a friend.

    Maybe it’s because you and Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche (to the gentle reader: notice who actually refers to Mary’s teacher respectfully and who does not) are not so close. I notice you never asked him directly if they are friends and what he thinks about your yellow journalistic attempts at slander. They are most definitely friends. Noone has to take my word for this, anyone can ask either lama or any of their close disciples.

    So I have learned an important point. You call Namkhai Norbu your teacher, but you don’t think that calling other lamas names is an important point to discuss with him. I guess we have different ideas about what it means to be a student.
    Not terribly surprising, is it?

    > > Did you know that he asked Sogyal Rinpoche to
    > >teach his students during his year of retreat in the late ’80s?
    > I believe S did make one appearance at Merigar a long time ago. Whether
    > this was by invitation or not, I do not know. He has never been invited back.

    This is typical finnegan tactics. Speak with authority, even when you don’t know what you are talking about. Sogyal Rinpoche has received many invitations to come back to merigar. Again this is very easy to verify. Once again you just spew misinformation, claiming deep research and corroborative efforts, and in the end you get it very wrong. If you can’t get simple details right, why should we believe anything else you say?

    > > This summer when I was in Europe, several of Norbu Rinpoche’s
    > >oldest students expressed shock that you would write such terrible things
    > >about Sogyal Rinpoche on the internet.
    > I am sure there’s a righteous indignation constituency within the
    > Dzogchen Community. You only have to read Norbunet for a while
    > to realise there are as many Shangri-La fantasy merchants in the Dzogcom as anywhere else in TB. Newage happens.

    With several small taps of the keyboard you manage to place everyone who disagrees with you into a single category. I would agree that there is a kind of syrupy, sentimentality amongst many dharma students today. I guess I have a more understanding view of it than you do. However, just because someone is shocked, disgusted or upset by your salacious fabrications, doesn’t mean that could only be because of the fact they live in a “Shangri-La fantasy.” It’s actual quite ridiculous to suppose that it could be so simple or because of a single cause. In anycase, if you knew who I was talking about, you wouldn’t easily put them in the category you mention. They may one day choose to talk to you.

    > There are, thankfully, just as many
    > people who support my position because they know the truth about little S and/or disapprove of his sex addiction, his cruelty to
    > women, his lack of substance as a teacher

    As to Sogyal Rinpoche’s substance and qualifications as a teacher I will invite readers to search out my previous posts through Deja News. However, I’ll summarize it by saying are you going to trust HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche’s words or Mary’s? Are you going to trust Nyushul Khenpo’s words or mary’s? Are you going to trust Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche’s words or mary’s? Are you going to trust HH Penor Rinpoche, HE Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche, H.E. Trulshik Rinpoche (who once told HHDR’s students in NYC that Sogyal Rinpoche is not seperate from him) , Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche, Tulku Orgyen Rinpoche, HE Dudrupchen Rinpoche, Tulku Thondrup Rinpoche, HE Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche on and on and on or mary? You can ask many of these lama’s this question. I have heard all of them speak about Sogyal Rinpoche. Sogyal Rinpoche has recieved extensive training and instruction from the senior lamas in this list. Mary, you just say a bunch of stuff with the air of authority, but that doesn’t make it true!

    > and his financial greed.

    This is actually quite laughable and something you made up. Sogyal Rinpoche has been known for many years known in Bhutan, Nepal and India for giving massive sums to support the Dharma (yes before the lawsuit). This was especially notewothy because he did at a time when many lamas who traveled to the west were ridiculed back in asia for forgetting the people at home. These stories are easy to verify.You can ask other lamas. Or, for example, eight stupas at Shechen Gompa say mary doesn’t know what she is saying.

    When visiting lamas come to the Rigpa center in San Francisco or Learb Ling, the event is often run at a loss or break even because Sogyal Rinpoche insists on making an extremely generous offering to support the work of the visiting lama. For many years when Sogyal Rinpoche taught in the U.S. he gave all the offerings he recieved back to the center to support the work of the center. I could go on but you get the point.

    If by “greedy” mary means what the rest of us mean by “really generous” then i guess what she said is true.

    > > They have known Sogyal Rinpoche as
    > >long as you have. They also know him much better than you do. How can you
    > >profess to be a student of Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and risk doing such a
    > >terrible thing to the sangha and to someone your own teacher considers a
    > >master worthy of his own students and a dear friend?
    > I can smell it from here! I really don’t want to be beastly to you
    > Erric, but I don’t give a tuppenny toss about what people think about
    > me, or how they choose to interpret what I say and do. I know a self-appointed spin doctor when I encounter one.

    You don’t seem to care what Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche thinks about what you are doing?

    http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan/browse_frm/thread/82d278a83fb84f26/62aa51f59d678e8b?lnk=gst&q=sogyal+namkhai+norbu#62aa51f59d678e8b

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  743. I have been honest. I have said I don’t believe MF stories, at all. I have said the only story that rings any truth in me is ex-dakinis.

    I have also asked around from close students, my best friend works close by SR – and Rigpa is not a gossip free area in the world. My friend has been there for many months a year for the past decade. He didn’t get a single hint toward the accusations. He knows a LOT of people, also many of those so called ‘harem women’ who are not part of any harem.

    There are too many lies around – so I don’t doubt that we all are confused. Really hard to see the reality after MF’s painted images of horror chambers (the Blog and all her many nasty posts in the past).

    Once I left a retreat in advance, I went up to get my blessing. SR was radiating love – and I felt I could understand why the halo around saints and shamans has been drawn in all times. I don’t claim to know what he does in his bedroom, but I have very different experiences about him, in fact the opposite experiences. If showing one the nature of mind is not kindness in this life time, I wonder what is.

    MF hasn’t seen SR for decades or doesn’t really know SR. Her own lama Namkhai Norbu knows him better than MF. MF has walked up to Namkhai Norbu to ask his advice weather she should publish her book about SR. Namkhai Norbu – as I recall – didn’t support nor objected, but asked her to consider it. (I read it in her own post in google groups.)

    Why Namkhai Norbu and many other lamas have turned in to support SR and haven’t abandoned him? Isn’t it strange? Not all the good Tibetan Buddhist lamas can be so mean spirited, if the accusations were true. MF asked NN’s advice over 7 years ago – and Namkhai Norbu and SR have began working together more during the past years. Do they all belong to a chauvinist league – or could it be that there heavy doubts about the stories?

    Namkhai Norbu, Ringu Tulku, Minguyr Rinpoche, Kyabjé Trulshik Rinpoche, Sakya Trizin, Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche, Lodi Gyari Rinpoche, Neten Chokling Rinpoche, Tsoknyi Rinpoche, Khenpo Jikme Phuntsok, Dzogchen Rinpoche, Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, Khenpo Namdrol – and many other lamas (who I don’t know) support him.

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  744. BellaB, I wish I could believe that you were as you protray yourself, a confused, but well meaning and devout female student of SR for 10 years. This suspicion I keep having that you are a fictional character, manipulated for purposes other than honest dialogue, just makes this entire affair all the more sordid.

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  745. BellaB, I too had one of those dreams during the time I was with Rigpa. I dreamt that SR touched me in my private areas with a feeling of blessings and kindness. This dream was quite powerful and did much to increase my faith in SR. As a result, it also delayed my return to mental health and true Dharma. As it turned out, he was never kind to me, the dream was false.
    We can’t put much stock in dreams, that’s for sure. During one occasion with a lama, I witnessed an enormous rainbow during a perfectly sunny day. No big deal and that lama wasn’t very kind either.

    I remember a quote from some great teacher of the past that I’ve always loved, something like: I don’t care if a lama can fly through the sky and enact great miracles; I only ask: is he kind?

    So I side with DI I’m afraid and have to say that these are all distractions you put up and they don’t address the main point, which is why Rigpa is continuing as if nothing has happened. Why is there nothing being done about these atrocities?

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  746. If you live in Dublin, here’s your chance to meet someone really close to SR and ask him questions. I think it’s worth it. He has known SR as long as MF but have has been there 365 days a year for the past decades, unlike your journalist.

    Dublin, 17-18 March 2012 Patrick Gaffney

    http://www.rigpa.ie/lang-en/component/content/article/86-featured/460-wisdom-of-compassion-march-2012.html

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  747. My advantage to you DI is that I have met SR multiple times – and you none. You have hear say to back up your view. I have also personal experiences and experiences of people who know him far better than MF.

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  748. I guess you don’t believe in the clairvoyant people? It’s okay. Good Christian people don’t go to see witches and so forth. I did once. It was quite impressive: one hour lecture of things he couldn’t have known. He didn’t ask me questions to invent stories.

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  749. dialogue ireland, I don’t think you have ever even met SR. You should do it once if you have this story here. It’s a long story.

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  750. I spun a coin to see if SR was innocent or guilty of these crimes. It did not matter how many times I threw them he was guilty every time. I consulted with a witch doctor and then drank herbal tea. Nothing could remove the stench of the guilty verdict. Sorry that was all a dream. I hear the painting by Munch is up for sale: This my reaction to the abuser:

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  751. I would also like to share one dream which I saw years ago. I was doing my Ngondro practice. I had heard about the accusations and at some point it was really difficult for me to visualize SR above my head as Vajrasattva. The dream I saw about him: He went to a shower. After him I was next in line. After his shower he began cleaning the floor for me from the water he had used. I said to him in the dream: “It’s okay.” He politely made room for me to step into the shower. I thought the dream meant (for me) that he has done his practice and changed, purified his karma. Too bad I didn’t yet finish my Ngondro.

    I have once met a clairvoyant in my life. I’m not running after other people’s view about me and the meaning of life, but I just had heard about this particular one from somebody and was curious. I asked his opinion about SR and he had no reason to ‘please me’ or lie to me. I didn’t tell him SR was my teacher or special to me. The clairvoyant is non-Buddhist and he said SR’s picture radiates pure light. I don’t know if the clairvoyant’s view was correct but he seemed to know everything about my past and everything about my friend’s past too. Well, who knows? Many lamas also think highly of him.

    I’m not trying to argue with you. There are just different views about him and the length of this conversation just shows how difficult it is to know the truth and the motivation of SR.

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  752. BellaB I read the link you gave me– blog entries from 1995. I’m not quite sure what your point is in directing me there, but I will make a few observations about what I read. Nothing surprising there for me.

    I read lots and lots of writing about Sogyal being an authentic tulku, lots of quotes from high lamas declaring that he is a great lama. (I guess that was your point). There’s lots of writing about how many teachings and instructions he received from high lamas. I personally have never questioned much of that. In fact, I very much myself believe that SR was born gifted, was born a special being with great potential. In my mind, that makes this travesty all the worse.

    I also am quite certain that there are no Tibetan lamas speaking out against his behaviors today. The code of loyalty and silence is quite strong there.

    But do all those high credentials of SR excuse abuse and immorality? This culture of “high lamas can do anything” is quite terrifying really. Is that your point? He’s a high tulku and can do as he pleases?

    I also read entries from students who felt that SR had given them precious Dharma and who had grown through their time with Rigpa.

    But does that excuse the abuse of even one woman? I personally am still reeling from my time with Rigpa 13 years ago. I had years and years when I could have been practicing Dharma and instead I was smoking and drinking and just trying to return to the ordinary, sane woman that I was before walking in the door of my first Rigpa retreat.

    This thread is about human suffering, BellaB. I keep having to remind you of this.

    The Buddha himself had no credentials other than a fierce compassion and love for every being on earth. He made it very clear, as have great masters who have followed, what are the qualifications needed to be a teacher. They have nothing to do with high status or birth and everything to do with the learning and MORALITY and compassion of the teacher.

    It’s a very slippery slope we’re on when we start excusing rampant immoral behavior in our teachers of Dharma simply because they have high credentials and status.

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  753. Thank you, Tiger Lily, for your support and insight. There is a power to optimism and hope! For years I’ve been living with this creepy notion of the inevitable demise of Rigpa and then this morning I thought, it doesn’t have to go that way at all. As you say, the Rigpa students deserve better. They just have to make that first move. It is possible!

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  754. Dear Drolma,
    Another wonderfully sane and intelligent post from you. I share your dream which most certainly can be brought about by a peaceful revolution. The Rigpa students really deserve this and must be ready to play their part.
    Their devotion should lead them to look into every dark corner fearlessly and with compassion towards the human fallability of their Teacher and by facing facts directly and honestly, deal with them.
    I hope that one day the change will come about from within Rigpa, and that indeed SR will have the chance to atone and deepen his practice.

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  755. BellaB, I had a little dream while taking a break from my Dharma study this morning. I dreamed that SR became filled with remorse for all the women who have suffered because of his lust. In my dream, he stood publicly and spoke of his shame and remorse and apologized to all those women. He was filled with compassion for these women.

    And then, to demonstrate the depth of his feeling, he declared that he would spend the rest of his life in solitary retreat, in order to atone.

    Then, I imagined all the buildings and functions of Rigpa being taken over by Tibetan lamas of impeccable morality. I dreamed that a group of such lamas steered Rigpa clear of this abyss and reinstated a pillar of morality at the center of practice in Rigpa centers. I imagined these lamas speaking gently to students, treating them with respect and honor. I imagined a culture of generousity, equality, compassion and warm heartedness being promoted in those great buildings of Lerab Ling and Dzogchen Bera.

    Then I dreamed of an army of Buddhist/therapists coming to Rigpa centers to help in the healing of all those women who have been abused. I imagined therapy groups, where these women could work together and discover that Buddhism is never about abuse. Only in the highest tantric practices is Buddhism ever even about sex– and then it is not about ejaculation or beatings or anything else that resembles lust.

    Buddhism is about healing and grace.

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  756. I also welcome the truth, whatever that may be.

    Just to remind you of Dudjom Rinpoche’s so called advice to SR: It’s not likely that Dudjom Rinpoche publicly gave SR any advice, so it’s a story created by somebody. Lamas do not criticize each others publicly – and as close those two were, I can’t imagine DR telling SR anything of which anybody else but SR is aware of.

    There was a student of SR who still seems to know the family of DR and there’s no division or cap between SR and DR. I can’t find the story in the comments now, but it’s somewhere.

    I wonder if Namkhai Norbu would invite a sexual predator to teach his own students. What do you think?

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  757. BellaB/SR know that when your tirades and tantrums subside, the truth will shine and women will begin their healing. This is, afterall, the Buddha’s Dharma.

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  758. BellaB, did SR (you?) lie to HH Dalai Lama and Mary Finnigan that day in Dharamsala? I believe that if you look in the texts on Buddhist ethics you will see that lying to one’s spiritual teacher constitutes the heaviest of downfalls.
    Also, I see no reason to doubt the claims that SR ignored the advice of two teachers (“masters”). Afterall, the advice was sound and not something malicious people would make up. The advice early on to go to India and further his Buddhist studies and the advice by HH Dalai Lama to marry and settle down– both address the two main troubles that beset Rigpa these days, that is, lack of learning and lack of morality. It is deeply ironic that the teacher who refers to his own teachers as “masters” blatantly disregards their advice. And this is the same teacher who expects high levels of obediance from his own students.

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  759. I don’t accept sexual abuse.

    You should also remember that hardly anybody in Rigpa knows what happens in SR’s bedroom. If you read anonymous internet stories, you hear an anonymous story. The real story of the person could be completely different, like in Victoria Barlow’s case.

    You do not hear SR’s story about the situation – or what he has done or what is his purpose. I hardly think abuse is what he has in mind.

    Once he said in his teachings: “the one who is abusing, is abusing first of all him/herself – then the abuse directed towards others comes next” (I can’t remember his exact words, but the meaning was this).

    He has also said that sometimes the teacher has worse karma than his students.

    Don’t you think these sentences show that he is pretty much aware of the mechanism of abuse and the claimed abuse he is said to perform year after year?

    Who knows:
    – maybe Tibetan male chauvinism is wide spread
    – maybe these accusations come from karma earned in past lives
    – maybe not all women are ready to reflect their own role in the claimed events
    – maybe SR is a monster, which I am not ready to believe after hearing his teachings for 10 years which reflect deep understanding of human condition

    The torture done in Chinese prisons that cause the monk’s and nun’s deaths are not equivalent to a Buddhist methods… maybe you need to be treated with silk cloves yourself, so you are welcome to go to join another teacher’s teachings. I prefer his directness.

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  760. BellaB, as usual, it’s hard to decipher what you’re talking about, but when you talk about trauma and people realizing “that they are not their traumas,” I wonder if you shouldn’t speak to the Tibetans in exile and tell them not to worry about their brothers and sisters suffering under Chinese repression and torture. Tell them that the Chinese are teaching them to realize that they are not their traumas. Tell them it’s OK to beat people because afterall, their own lamas do it.

    Yes, indeed, there is the wonderful system of mind training in Buddhism where one looks on one’s torturer as one’s greatest teacher, where one uses torture and abuse on the path. But Buddhism is also the most realistic of religions and thousands of Tibetans have fled Tibet because what the Chinese are doing is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

    And I say to you: Sexual abuse also is not acceptable, under any guise. To call it Dharma is a blaspheme of our teacher, Buddha.

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  761. Bella, I promise you that Tiger Lily and Victoria Barlow are two different people.

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  762. Notice Drolma, that on the other hand you say: “if the allegations are true (which is likely) other lamas are telling women that they should feel honored to be coerced into sex. They are privileged.”

    …and elsewhere it was said Mimi entered the working scene with SR only after 2 months of encountering Rigpa and spent there 3 years working. She also claimed “she knew sex went with the job”.

    If she was really aware of all this in an early stage, how come she was able to enter the room in the first place? Mimi was said to be 21 and SR over 60. How is that possible for a young woman?

    “And how does he justify his frequent displays of anger?”

    Maybe it’s not ‘real anger’ but display of wrath?

    Maybe it’s a first step for some when they realize that they are not their traumas. They stop identifying with their pain, when it’s showed on their face? Can you see the point? That I assume is the purpose of therapy or any treatment. He just makes the journey a bit quicker.

    It’s my interpretation, but you are free to figure out your own.

    “exDakini and Janine”

    I agree I feel the story by ex-dakini might be reliable. I find Janine’s stories incredible. I also think – even though Tiger Lily says she is not Victoria Barlow – that she is. So, I think I have heard one reliable sounding story – and it didn’t come from the hands of Mary Finnigan and her friends.

    I know women who have suffered and I have myself suffered, so don’t think that I don’t have any emotional check point for my view. I’ve heard many stories, lies and non-lies – and slowly I think I have come to notice truth tellers from liars. Can’t be 100% sure though, who could?

    I don’t like a person, like a childhood friend of mine, who was sexually abused – and as an adult, despite her years and years of therapy that didn’t help a thing – she has slowly become the abuser and a liar herself. It’s a sad story but I don’t necessarily think it’s the only one in the Universe.

    Some victims of abuse have been victims when they were young – and as adults become the image of their abuser. Please take that factor also into account when you try to see the truth. It’s not always black and white.

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  763. And in response to your previous entry, Bella B, I wish to observe that such testimonies as those given by exDakini and Janine exude the wisdom and introspection earned through honesty and genuine healing while your entries in this thread are consistantly wild and illogical. They exude deceit.

    Exdakini, I just loved your statement to Rigpa about being quite sane. There is no greater abuse of power than causing someone to doubt their sanity.

    I also applaud Tiger Lily’s observations regarding spiritual rape. It is indeed rape because rape is coercion by an individual in a position of power. Along these lines, I wish to quote from a teaching given by HH Dalai Lama years ago on the dangers of seeing the spiritual teacher as perfect (in other words, giving him the power that Rigpa gives SR):

    “I always recommend that the teaching on seeing the guru’s actions as perfect should not be stressed in the lives of ordinary practitioners. It would be an unfortunate affair if the Buddhadharma, which is established by profound reasoning, were to have to take second place to it…A student of the spiritual path should rely upon a teacher and should meditate on his kindness and good qualities; but the teachings on seeing his actions as perfect can only be applied within the context of the Dharma as a whole and the rational approach to knowledge that it advocates…As for the guru, if he misrepresents this precept of guru-yoga [e.g. the precept of seeing the guru’s actions as perfect] in order to take advantage of his naive disciples, his actions are like pouring the liquid fires of hell directly into his stomach.” (Essence of Refined Gold, pp 54-55)

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  764. BellaB et al

    Today, I am signing a petition to my congressmen from Amnesty International which begins: “One in three women worldwide will be beaten, coerced into sex, or otherwise abused in their lives…” There’s a culture in Tibetan Buddhism of loyalty to the lama, of never openly criticizing lamas and it’s still difficult for me to do so in a forceful manner. But there’s a much stronger culture in me, the culture of outrage, of signing petitions and speaking out when I see atrocities and abuses, such as those being disclosed here in this thread. Surely Tibetans can understand such a culture of outrage themselves, as they desperately seek help from the world to combat the atrocities being committed against their people by the Chinese.

    So as I sign the petition for Amnesty, I am again struck by the enormity of what has happened to women at Rigpa. I am struck by how such things can be happening here in the west without a blessed thing being done about it. I think I know why too and it sickens me.

    Once in the heyday of my lama madness, I took one of my daughters and a friend to a Rigpa teaching. This daughter of mine is very sweet tempered and has a strong sense of right and wrong. After the teaching, she complained loudly to me about SR’s behavior during the teaching. It was his usual, common behavior of verbally tearing apart one of his students and so of course, I defended his actions. I told my daughter that it was not for me to judge the actions of a great lama towards senior students. That he had some higher purpose.

    I am still ashamed of myself for what I said to my daughter. What sort of mother had I become, to tell my daughter, my daughter who lives by a strong creed of non-harming, who rarely even loses her temper, that it is OK to insult and shout at someone in front of a group of people? How jaded was I becoming?

    I ask you, Rigpa students: How often have you had to justify Sogyal’s behavior to yourself or a loved one? How often have you sat through your lama’s tirades? How often have you sat by, with no outrage, and watched someone suffer at your lama’s hands? What do you think those tirades do to your sense of compassion and human worth? What does it do to your sensitivity to others’ feelings?

    When the Buddha taught of the emptiness of self, he did not talk about the worthlessness of self. He did not teach that someone else needed to come and beat our sense of self to death. In fact, the Buddhist path is one that requires an enormous degree of courage and self-confidence. From everything I have heard and seen of Sogyal’s methods, they are addressed at destroying that very self-confidence so needed to progress on the path.

    And how does he justify his frequent displays of anger?

    And now, the same people who accept those regular tirades as the behavior of a great lama are also saying that it is OK for their lama to have his sex when and with whom and in what manner he pleases. They say that he is not a monk so he doesn’t have to worry about sexual misconduct. In fact, if the allegations are true (which is likely) other lamas are telling women that they should feel honored to be coerced into sex. They are privileged.

    I heard once that if you live on a sloping floor for long enough you start to believe that it’s level. That’s what I see happening at Rigpa. Ideas about right and wrong have shifted badly. Patrick Gafney is on a teaching tour these days, teaching of compassion and a loving heart. Yet Rigpa is refusing to come clean and address this horrible trouble it’s in. Rigpa shows no concern for the women who have suffered and are suffering still. And Patrick has sat by all these years and watched them suffer. In my belief system, the very basis of love and compassion is transparency, trust, and an inability to stand by while others suffer. How long can this hypocrisy stand?

    So I sign my petition and I write another comment here, hoping that more women will come forward, that more Rigpa students will stand tall. We all do what we can.

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  765. Drolma, I think you should study the case more. It’s easy to fly off the handle with sensational news by Mary Finnigan. She is supposed to be a professionalist writer… of the yellow papers, seems to me (because of her ‘morals’).

    There might be some sexual relationships between SR and a few of his students over the years. SR has made peace with Janice Doe – and no-one knows what really happened there, and unfortunately will never know. You know, the case was SETTLED?

    The next ‘reliable’ source for any abuse for the next 15 years came from Victoria Barlow. She claimed to have been raped by him, even though she was his girlfriend, which she admits even in the doc. She claimed for years that she was an unsuspecting student of his wanting to discuss Dharma with her lama… BS.

    Mimi/Janine is writing in the BTT blog horrendous stories, which may have been kindly colored by the main inventor of the whole story of SR of today, Mary Finnigan. MF claims there has been victims who could fill the Royal Albert Hall. I can’t see that happening.

    I wish people who may have had suffered, would have at least a bit more decency to be honest themselves. I have known of the accusations for over 10 years now. I have visited Rigpa and kept my eyes open. I know people in the inner circle. Those people have other lamas too in their lives, so they do not depend on SR for Dharma. The crazy scenes described in the BTT are fantasy.

    Just study more. I have nothing more to say. Go to the google discussion pages of the past years. Sheds a bit light on the issue, when MF couldn’t find friends even there… nor ‘victims’.

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  766. Enough, BellaB, whoever you are, enough. This is a discussion about the suffering of real human beings. This is not a political exercise you can manipulate anymore by jamming the airways with nonsense. It is clear that Rigpa is not interested in addressing these issues in any honest, straightforward way. It is clear that SR was not interested in apologizing to Jan Doe all those years ago– and it seems he would never consider apologizing to the many women who now must devote their lives to recovering and healing from his actions. In exactly the same spirit, you do not appear interested in anything other than undermining any hope of intelligent and healing dialogue on this thread.
    Your must stop this, BellaB. You must stop it and allow women’s voices to be heard.

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  767. I don’t miss the human element.

    The fact is that if there was abuse, the plain description of it should be enough. Why the sensational extreme bullshit around the whole thing? It doesn’t convince me. I’m not that stupid. Just read my response where I absolutely had to question every detail, because it seems so far fetched BS.

    Victorian Barlow was not raped, innocent unsuspecting student as she claimed. She was his girlfriend. Why lie? :(

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  768. And I forgot to add: Shame on you, Sogyal, shame on you.

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  769. I always come onto these “discussions” a few months late and then have to catch up– which is near impossible because of how BellaB shuts down the debate with her datribe. It’s quite numbing, how you go on and on and on isn’t it, Bella? I suppose that is your intention?

    In the middle of my morning Dharma study, I was filled with sadness about all of this horror. You know, Bella, if even a tenth of the allegations are true, it is horrific. Horrifc. Not something that can even begin to be excused away. Unfortunately, I suspect that the oposite is true– the allegations are probably only a tenth of the truth.

    And unfortunately, I suspect a further horror, which is that this lama is not the only horrible abuser of beings in the name of Dharma. The culture of fierce loyalty amongst Tibetan lamas is very scarey these days. Frequently, the word samaya is used as a threat instead of referring to the precious bond that can exist between a lama and his/her student in Tibetan Buddhism. And what has happened to the Buddha’s injunction to question question question? What has happened to that spirit of inquisitiveness and skepticism so central to the Buddha Dharma?

    These days in Dharma centers world wide, it’s all about the lama. The lama the lama the lama. During the last teaching by HH Dalai Lama that I attended in New York City the woman next to me couldn’t stop watching her lama on the stage, couldn’t contain her delight when she saw him on the big screen. I used to be like that, until it brought me to an abyss of mental illness. And Sogyal was only one of five teachers who led me astray.

    We in the West need to stop and look at how we are contributing to the abuses. We need to set up Dharma centers that do not place the lama and his money making empires in central position. We need to teach caution and skepticism. We need to advise new students to take years before committing to a teacher. Years. And they need to listen to the rumours and investigate.

    Tushita Center in Macleod Ganj in India does just this. They run a 10 day introduction to Buddhism retreat where they advise students on a safe entry into the practice and study of Dharma. I believe that we desperately need centers like this in the West.

    When I read the entries here, I feel so sad about the women who have been abused because this becomes a trouble that doesn’t go away for them quickly. And all that these women wanted was a chance to find happiness in the Dharma. You ask, BellaB, how could these women let Sogyal do these things– I ask, how on earth could he do these things? He has a sacred trust and he has torn it to shreds. So thank you DI for your wonderful piece and thank you, all you courageous women who have come forward to speak. BellaB, you miss the fact that no woman finds pleasure in telling such stories. You miss the human element completely.

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  770. Youre nuts!

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  771. On one of these dates it will become clear who the murderers are.

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  772. The (self-fabricated?) license plate number is clearly connected to the history of “karmapa” and I wonder why it seems to be of utmost importance to them (whoever they represent) to pester me and try to kill me. I expect special news any time soon now, on Jan. 25th or Feb. 23rd/24th; let’s see what it is and then we will know why it seems to be so important to them to do away with me.

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  773. People who don’t bear the name of “Rinpoche” nor wear red and yellow are accused of “paranoia” and those that do receive support. This morning police went in renewed search of a certain car that came towards me and followed me. Another car with Tibetans has tried to overrun me. I have pictures “Anonymous” is merciless in depicting a victim of various attempts of murder as a lunatic.

    My life has been utterly destroyed from the beginning I met Tibetan lamas: they do their puja and wave their flags and then my whole life fell apart again and again: job, bf, family, everything. They have pulled this stunt on me many times. Instead of writing a letter or asking for a conversation face to face they do their mala-work and think this is communication. They have destroyed my life again and again and now I am exhausted and can no longer think of ways to start over with my life again, I am just totally beaten and broken.

    I am nOt paranoia. They just KEEP stalking me. Talk to my garagist and listen to how they have sabotaged my car. I have pictures of the Tibetan crooks and the license plates of the cars that have recently either tried to overrun me or come racing towards me and keep stalking me. I AM FED UP and have no longer a life!

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  774. From Martine Batchelor’s talk on Debi Goodwin’s Blog

    On the other side, what is it about the women that allow this to go on?

    Martine Batchelor: I think what is very important to see is that it is not just individual to individual. It is not like you are in a bar and someone comes to you and says, “Hey do you want to go and have sex with me?” And then the woman – unless she is thinking that the guy is fantastic or attractive or she has fallen in love – she says, “Wait a minute, I don’t know you!” If you are two individuals meeting each other – you are relatively equal.

    But imagine; you are in this room, you have 100-200 people looking up to this figure, looking up to this great guru. And then this great guru singles you out saying, “Oh, you are special. You are so special, that if you have sex with me I will be even more awakened, and you will be closer to awakening.” Some might be crasser, I don’t know what they do. They never did it to me, I have never been a young, pretty lady! So I don’t have any experience of how it works.

    But I think it is a question of the group. Not only is it the seduction of the teacher, but it is the seduction of the group who says “Hey, this guy is special.’ And whatever he does is special. So even if it doesn’t make sense, its special, he’s awakened”. So what happens is that in a way you enter a parallel universe. If you were in your universe, you would know that this is right, this is wrong. “I don’t want to have sex with this fellow. He is fat! He is weird. Why should I have sex with him?”

    But if you are in this parallel universe where the guy is glorified into this amazing person, then anything he wants – you should give it to him. Because by this you are surrendering your ego, you are showing your spirituality. I think its often the way – it is underhanded, coercion. And it is a cultural coercion, a group coercion.

    Sometimes you can nearly have the teacher grooming, being very nice, very nice. And you feel so comfortable with this teacher. And then suddenly, bang. The pay time comes. And by then you are so far that you think, “well, maybe I can also do this.” Or you cannot even question it in that moment.

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  775. Psychiatrists use the term paranoia to describe a disordered way of thinking or an anxious state that attains the level of a delusion. For example, a person who believes the FBI is tracking her every move through the fillings in her teeth is exhibiting paranoid behavior. On the other hand, a criminal who believes the FBI is listening in on his telephone calls is not likely paranoid, because it may well be true.

    The key to true paranoia is that the person exhibits an unreasonable and/or exaggerated mistrust and suspicion of others. This suspicion is not based on fact and often grows into delusions. Thus, paranoia is a symptom that can be part of several syndromes, including delusional disorder, paranoid personality disorder, psychotic and mood disorders (including bipolar disorder and schizophrenia), as well as other conditions (such as brain toxicity that may be caused by drug or alcohol abuse, mineral poisoning, etc).

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  776. Police:” thank you for handing us over the license plate numbers and photographs of the crooks, we are working on it”.

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  777. Giulia: “Doctor, I keep hearing all kinds of animals planning to kill me in my head.”

    Doctor: “Don’t worry, you’re just having Disney spells.”

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  778. Sogyal Rinpoche might be fussy nervous busy-body at times, but at least he is not on drugs and he does not have people murdered. That’s more than you can say about many of them.

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  779. How untrue. I told that already many times K-clique has tried to kill me (even though many of them have knocked on my door again and again for sex or help or both). Two weeks ago two cars with Tibetan thugs in it have tried to overrun me and a fifth Tibetan downtown tried to steal my handbag. It is an international police case now.
    I would call “try to murder all the time” definitely “stop from participating in the dharma”. India, Nepal, Bhutan, it are all danger zones for me. Even my own city and house have become dangerous. It seems that it is because I know about NP not being a sister at all and because of their drug addiction?

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  780. Hi Giulia,

    The only person that stops anybody from participating in the Dharma, is themselves…nobody owns the Dharma…

    Regards,
    sankappa

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  781. A MUCH bigger problem I find that certain lamas / heads of sect have already instantly recognized certain persons (e.g. me) but then, because they happen to know (unwillingly) about the female(s) they keep, no longer want to let them participate in the dharma. VERY HARMFUL & extremely selfish

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  782. Hi there. I’m here to ask if you know anything about your teacher shagging new students and abusing them physically and mentally; i wonder if you could help?”

    “Yes, sure. Come on in. Sit down have cup of tea”

    Cuckoo

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  783. “So Vera is right, there will be no answer to any mail she would send to Rigpa.”

    If she showed her face and talked with people in a direct but friendly way, I’m sure people would try to help her.

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  784. I am not aware of which decade the Ex-dakini’s story comes from and I do not know if there were any therapists around at that time.

    My male friend wrote that he also believes Ex-dakini is telling the truth, from her point of view. He said he thinks she was left into a void, met by not so skilled senior students: she was a missed opportunity to be helped and supported. In Tibet there was the whole family and village supporting each other.

    He also said that the therapist is quite good in integrating and never lets any of her patients to be hurt. Working close to SR can stir a lot of emotions and SR at times chooses to work with people who are in a difficult place in their lives. Obviously his aim is to help them, but at least at times he hasn’t been able to: whereas in many cases he has been able to help. SR is pretty much aware of the presence of the therapist and if there was something to hide, do you think he would let her work with the students?

    I do not think the therapist is an unskilled one. My friend rather appreciates her wisdom. I also don’t think she would support abuse, in any case.

    “I find it a pity you wrote the response to BTT. It would have been the duty of SG or his inner circle to answer. ”

    I wanted to write it. I wanted to compile my view about the situation – there was so much pure slander in BTT. Even though people visiting Rigpa can quite easily see it and shake their heads in disbelief but other people can’t.

    Rigpa can still write their own response. I doubt it’s a personal one, but more detached.

    I think it’s also a bit strange if they begun telling detailed descriptions of each student and their lives – and what SR means with each action that he does with them.

    But I would also welcome their response, so we can wait for it.

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  785. BellaB,

    although when I called you here an accomplice of criminals, it was meant systemic. I think, you are a touchable women and in some confusion now after ex-d`s testimony. This may be one of the best part of you, take care about this feelings. They make an important difference to other devotees, who just walk blindly in their worship and concepts. I do not want to insist now, it is your turn to make a choice.

    When I got aware I had been ritually abused by Nydahl and Thaye Trinley Dorje, I had a long way to go to tear out my deep devotion from my heart. I was so confused, I still did not want to believe what had happened to me. Like ex-d said. “A victim? I? Never!”
    From this point of view it is to be difficult to realise the facts, even when their happen to you.

    I find it a pity you wrote the response to BTT. It would have been the duty of SG or his inner circle to answer. They know the facts, you don`t because of the mantling secrecy. They should have told the untruth, but their constant strategy is to keep silence.

    So Vera is right, there will be no answer to any mail she would send to Rigpa.

    “If she could share her experience with even ONE other person in Rigpa, she could have gone to talk to the therapist too.”

    Remember, what ex-d said:

    “I had confided in senior students and their advice – which was to stop seeing the teacher with my judgmental mind and use pure perception – wasn’t helping. I had told SR about this several times, and finally told him that I couldn’t be with him anymore.”

    Do you think, one of the inner circle aroud SG would ever give him advices to stop the sexual abuse? Do you really think, the “therapist” would do? Would you do? Come on!

    Vera, Tiger Lily, some interesting thoughts about “Tantra-Induced Delusions” you find here:

    http://www.american-buddha.com/tids.htm

    For a Guru there is no way out.

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  786. ‘My mission here has been to point out Finnigan’s misinterpretations’.

    You haven’t done a very good job then. Hope you got paid, but sounds like you did it through devotion.

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  787. Hey love, you’re the one suffering with cognitive dissonance, not me.

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  788. You could contact your local Rigpa center and arrange those people to have contact with the therapist.

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  789. “Come to think of it, have you ever considered talking to the therapist there, might be more fruitful than wasting two years and counting of your life here ;)”

    Could be. I have spoken to other people there though.

    My mission here has been to point out Finnigan’s misinterpretations.

    If you know “how Rigpa works”, then why do you think they would contact you if I sent everybody’s emails to everybody?

    Therapists work confidentially – and I don’t believe she would start conversing with you in emails, at least not in detail. You could make an appointment with her though.

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  790. p.s If you read the dossier you will see Mimi already did that, and went to talk to SR. I believe another woman did too-she was told by SR she was too independent for Rigpa. I read that on the French blog.

    Shucks.

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  791. I love your suggestion we should just go and talk to SR, how quaint, ditto with therapist. Any email would end up being ignored, I know how Rigpa works.
    I would very much appreciate it if you pass on my email via your best friend to said therapist. Thanks. Come to think of it, have you ever considered talking to the therapist there, might be more fruitful than wasting two years and counting of your life here ;)

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  792. Vera, I do not know who you are. You have mentioned you have been in Rigpa, so I don’t think it’s impossible to call them or email them as the “real you”? I still didn’t contact even Sheila, even though she is writing here with her own name. I’m a bit scared about the Chinese getting my email address from her email and beginning to attack me too (paranoid? I guess so).

    I also think it’s best to address these things in person, face to face. There will be less chance for misinterpretation. I know it’s expensive to travel, but if there’s an organized effort, then it’s worthwhile.

    The therapist is the only one living in LL. Not many people live there.

    I’m sure people in Rigpa know this page already.

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  793. Bellab, as you suggested we contact the therapist at LL, I am taking that on board. As you have excellent contacts at LL, please alert them to this site or pass on my email ad to said therapist. I for one, would be extremely interested in dialoguing with therapist about the abuse issues at Rigpa. I wonder why with the abundance of therapists at Rigpa, as you have claimed, they have not raised their concerns with SR?

    ‘If Janine/Mimi were part of a group of women who encourages themselves to be there, for the sake of their own good, then Janine/Mimi was not alone. If she could share her experience with even ONE other person in Rigpa, she could have gone to talk to the therapist too.’

    Yeah right. Even for those who have not been sexually abused by SR, it is nigh on impossible to raise criticism. Never wondered about the no of people who after years of practice at Rigpa, suddenly vanish? No one speaks about it, they just leave. If you are the exception, then help us out here, and at least send me the name of the therapist at LL. Presumably, you won’t have a problem doing that as you suggested it./Thanks.

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  794. the very last place anyone being abused by SR would go, is to a therapist at Rigpa.

    I haven’t been abused or beaten, so I wouldn’t know for sure. I just know the therapists treats MANY people.

    If Janine/Mimi were part of a group of women who encourages themselves to be there, for the sake of their own good, then Janine/Mimi was not alone. If she could share her experience with even ONE other person in Rigpa, she could have gone to talk to the therapist too.

    I don’t have the therapist’s email address – and wouldn’t publish it here, if I had. She lives in LL, so it’s not that difficult to track her.

    “You most certainly wouldn’t hit someone back if you had been trained in pure perception and saw them as Guru Rinpoche. You would take it as a teaching.”

    I guess I’m different, since I have seen SR from the beginning as a human being with a lot of skill and he has also opened my heart as a teacher. I’m not blindly obeying anyone, not even him. I have been attacked two times in my life – and my automatic response has been to defend myself: run away or attack back (push rapist away with my arms). Once a friend also playfully tied my hand, but even then my response was to defend myself, even though it was a friend and a playful situation (not sexual). But I know some people can’t fight back or defend themselves when their lives are at stake: they go into shock or something.

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  795. You could send me an email -address above-giving their name. Thanks. I may as well say, that the very last place anyone being abused by SR would go, is to a therapist at Rigpa.
    Your post shows how little you understand about how women stay in abusive relationships. This is the case outside the spiritual community too, where women who are domestic violence victims, stay for years, trapped by themselves and the abuser. It is a very complex picture, but to the naive and innocent outsider, there is a very simplistic take on it. Why don’t they leave?
    As for TIger L saying she would have hit SR back, I suggest her relationship was on a very different footing to the one of Mimi and ex -d. It sounds more equal. You most certainly wouldn’t hit someone back if you had been trained in pure perception and saw them as Guru Rinpoche. You would take it as a teaching.

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  796. Vera, please contact Rigpa: maybe they can help you to get in contact with the therapist. I’m a bit careful about mentioning any names here, since I know they can be misused by certain story tellers.

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  797. Bella, please can you let me know the name of the therapist?

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  798. Hi, thank you for your answer. I must confess that I read it with mixed emotions.

    What puzzle me mostly is that I find there odd things about knowing Mary, supporting her, mixed opinions about publishing the “harem women’s” names in the materials… and then this response: “I have assumed MF wrote BTT having followed earlier posts here. If I am mistaken I apologise.” (Tiger Lily, on January 13, 2012 at 11:18 pm)

    Were you also behind the process of creating the BTT?

    “Sex with Sogyal “went with the job of being a female attendant”. It was not about love. When she began to have doubts, she was faced with the answer that whatever Sogyal did would be a teaching for her good.”

    Went with the job of female attendant? If that were the case then Mimi/Janine would have been aware from early on what she was up to. She was there for 3 years – and at the end she told her father, who decided to leave the 3-years retreat.

    This story is so completely different from what is described in the BTT: a young girl leaning against her father’s back… lured into something that the father is hardly aware. If the whole thing lasted for 3 years, the father would have had at least an intuitive knowledge of the situation. People usually take the initiative to start working in Rigpa, not the other way around: they are not asked to work.

    I also wonder why Mimi/Janine stayed there for three years? It’s a long time – and she landed in Rigpa because of her father. She stayed just because other people considered her position admirable? I know young people may be influenced by their surroundings, but her father was there too. I guess my own father is very different: he would have teased me in a bit nasty way about the situation and kept me “real”. I wouldn’t be able to hide the true nature of my situation from my family and friends for 3 years.

    Who told her that something is for her own good? If she was suffering, why didn’t she go to the therapist? She lasted a rather weird situation for three years. I must say (and I am a different person) that I wouldn’t have lasted for more than 2-3 months even when I was young. I think I was also quite disgusted by older men when I was under 30 years old. What made her take the first step? I just keep wondering to myself. SR is probably the same age as her own father.

    “She also told me that she was regularly struck by Sogyal with his backscratcher as were his other female attendants.”

    I don’t know what to think about this. Hitting with his wooden back scratch can’t be too hard, since it would brake easily. I have never seen him hitting anybody, so it’s hard to judge. Did Janine/Mimi reveal WHY he was hitting her? I can’t imagine him just randomly hitting people?

    “Neither did he ever hit me. I would have hit him back.”
    With my character I would have hit back too, if I were pushed enough.

    “No she didn’t tell me about what Mary F referred to as the orgy. Mary told me much later. Actually she left out of the BTT document the full details. Mimi didn’t want to be involved and hung back as some of the women decided to join together in a sexual “offering” to Sogyal.”

    I have serious doubts this kind of scene ever to take place. I’m sorry, but I don’t buy it at this stage.

    “I imagine Mary chose the word “orgy” to put the reader in the picture without spelling it out. Mary may be forceful, decisive and has on occasion upset people. But one thing she is not. She is not a liar. The tone of BTT is obviously coloured by her personal thoughts about Sogyal but the contents are I believe true accounts bar errors in small details where she has slipped up.”

    I’m sorry, but even though I do appreciate that you took the time to respond and tell your own story, I can’t help it, but I am “a bit” put off by stories, where M. Finnigan is supported. I do not trust her story telling nor judgment of events at all. I thought that I and others in the past (pema dorje in Google Forums, ThomasKent in Rick Ross) have been able to show in detail how misguiding her stories are – and how she builds them up. There might be 1% truth in her stories, but the rest are heavily colored and twisted.

    In fact I think it’s not helpful at all that she is involved coloring things. She is constantly painting situations that people describe with their own words into the extreme. That is simply slander and it doesn’t make any rational people to believe her stories.

    I really wish to hear genuine stories that I think I can relate to. Even though Finnigan thinks that she is a good author and journalist, I do not think so.

    “There have been differences of opinion as to whether BTT should have been put on the internet. I myself was not happy that some of the women’s real names have been published. I understand Mary felt that some known Rigpa names had to be stated, though she has gone to lengths to protect the identity of key witnesses.”

    Why they needed to be stated? She can’t know what is the nature of a relationship between some other woman and SR. Mimi/Janine was a single woman, but most of those other women are not.

    “Sogyal didn’t claim to be a great Master…that came after I’d left. He was usually called Sogyal Tulku by the Tibetans.”

    I do not know who has begun talking about him being a Terton Sogyal. I do not recall him saying that. I remember that on one retreat some older student was telling about his life story for some purpose: it was some special day. Terton Sogyal is not often mentioned in retreats because the subject that he is teaching has nothing to do with Tertons. He very rarely teaches on Tendrel Nyesel practice (that was discovered by Lerab Lingpa) – and in such situations his past incarnation might be mentioned.

    “each successive decade as Rigpa grew and grew and grew and the best of Sogyal (and there could be a sweet side to him)”

    There is still the sweet side to him. If you knew him closely, why don’t you go and see him? I wish you could also talk to the therapist who lives in Lerab Ling. It might be fruitful to bring the “two worlds” together and see what happens.

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  799. I have assumed MF wrote BTT having followed earlier posts here. If I am mistaken I apologise.

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  800. Edit.
    whilst seemingly surrounded day and night by people, he seems very isolated, barking orders out,must be tough.

    (I am not being facetious here, though it sounds it)

    I appeal to women who have walked, please now talk.

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  801. Thanks for sharing your experience, Tiger Lily. I think the more people who share this, the better. Did he have other girlfriends at the time, or were you exclusive? The more I hear, the more it seems very sad indeed, whilst seemingly surrounded day and night by people, must be tough. The God -realm must be hard to inhabit…it would turn anyone a bit crazy, I imagine, being deified. HH DL stands alone, yet his humility is self-evident.

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  802. Dear bella-B,
    I shall endeavour now to answer your questions. I met Mimi I think in 2008, and we talked for about 3 hours over the lunch that I had prepared. I didn’t want to probe into such a delicate and painful subject and just let her reveal as much as she felt she could to a complete stranger. Since what she told me was in confidence I shall not repeat it here. Suffice to say she echoes ex-d’s testimony in that during the time she was Sogyal’s attendant she received so little sleep that she couldn’t think straight. Sex with Sogyal “went with the job of being a female attendant”. It was not about love. When she began to have doubts, she was faced with the answer that whatever Sogyal did would be a teaching for her good. She was encouraged by him to see herself as a consort and when she went in tears to Dzigar Kongtrul to ask him what it meant to be a consort he replied that it was very good.
    She also told me that she was regularly struck by Sogyal with his backscratcher as were his other female attendants.
    No she didn’t tell me about what Mary F referred to as the orgy. Mary told me much later. Actually she left out of the BTT document the full details. Mimi didn’t want to be involved and hung back as some of the women decided to join together in a sexual “offering” to Sogyal.
    I imagine Mary chose the word “orgy” to put the reader in the picture without spelling it out.
    Mary may be forceful, decisive and has on occasion upset people. But one thing she is not. She is not a liar.
    The tone of BTT is obviously coloured by her personal thoughts about Sogyal but the contents are I believe true accounts bar errors in small details where she has slipped up.
    There have been differences of opinion as to whether BTT should have been put on the internet. I myself was not happy that some of the women’s real names have been published. I understand Mary felt that some known Rigpa names had to be stated, though she has gone to lengths to protect the identity of key witnesses.
    You asked me if Sogyal had ever treated me in the way Mimi has claimed he did her. First of all I was never encouraged to see myself as a consort. It never entered my head. I was a girl-friend. Neither did he ever hit me. I would have hit him back. Sogyal didn’t claim to be a great Master…that came after I’d left. He was usually called Sogyal Tulku by the Tibetans. The whole dynamic at Rigpa was more normal then. Much more low key, not the empire it’s become. He could be a pain in the arse though and we let him get away with it too much.
    I did try to work with unpleasant emotions by letting my relationship with Sogyal and Rigpa be a catalyst for my practice. Perhaps not a waste of time after all as I have learned by default. I just gave up with being deceived by his philanderings and by being kept in the dark and the general deterioration of a friendship which I had once valued. I never saw him as my Guru but rather someone I wanted to be close to because Tibetan Buddhism was the most important part of my life.
    I did notice a difference in his behaviour though and judging from other women’s comments it became more intense with each successive decade as Rigpa grew and grew and grew and the best of Sogyal (and there could be a sweet side to him) seemed to become swallowed up by Terton Sogyal. I am shocked and saddened by Mimi’s and Ex-d’s
    experiences but not surprised.

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  803. Ex-d and any others who may not want to talk online about experiences. Here is an email ad you can write to me in confidence at, if you want to at any time.

    siobhanmace@yahoo.com

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  804. Dear ex-d,
    Your last post has brilliantly pin-pointed the crucial heart of the matter; exactly how it is that Sogyal perpetrates deep harm to women. If he may not be found guilty of rape in the usual sense of taking a woman by force against her will, I believe he does use his position to obtain sexual gratification through his self-delusions of grandeur. It is when the woman realises as you have, and Mimi did, among others that they have been deceived that the feelings of revulsion are quite catastrophic and have a traumatic effect. I see this as spiritual rape.
    You make a very good point about him being isolated. I would add cocooned by adulation from the real world.
    Sogyal’s treatment of his women seems to have progressed in an evermore downward spiral. Surely this is indicative of a growing personality disorder? I and a number of other people who have been involved in Tibetan Buddhism for 30-40 years and treasure the authentic Teachings feel he should be receiving some kind of therapy.
    Thankyou again for your lucid posts and for sharing such distressing details of what it is like to be on the receiving end of Sogyal’s attentions.
    Vera’s post above regarding “crazy wisdom” is spot on.

    Like

  805. Ex-D…you wrote: .’ One is the set up of the teachings where the women around him, like I was, are striving to efface themselves completely. I was trying to get rid of my “self,” and as such I ignored any messages from my unconscious that told me that the situation was wrong. I gladly accepted being ordered around, being yelled at, being treated like an object, the constant useless work, the lack of any of my needs even being considered.’

    Edelstein in Sex and the Spiritual Teacher touches on the problems with accepting crazy wisdom…I’m going to quote here as what he says is worth hearing I think, and highlights what you have said above:

    ‘What is spiritually dangerous is students’ inability to tell crazy wisdom from simple craziness. More dangerous still is when a narcisstic or immaute spiritual teacher confuses the two-or is willing to exploit a student’s confusion of them. ….the student ultimately becomes willing to accept anything and everything their teacher dishes out, without question or complaint, no matter how seemingly illogical nor unwholesome, precisely because it is seemingly illogical or unwhoesome, so long as the teacher declares (or implies) that it’s a crazy wisdom.’
    Later he says: ‘none of this misconduct can take place without silence and secrecy-and as Brett noted, “If a relationship has to be secret, you shouldn’t be in it”

    Strongly recommend this book, as it deals very directly with a lot of the issues that are coming out of the teacher-student r/ship. Might give more clarity on what you experienced too, ex-d.

    Like

  806. Always?
    I simply want to know if she still thinks those who claim abuse are liars.Anyway, how do you know Im not a troll? My feet are pretty hairy ;)

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  807. For someone who is always saying DNFTT you are doing a remarkably good job of going against your own advice.

    Like

  808. Hey Sheila, no answers? While your hiding, why not look up ‘Internet Addiction Disorder’ and have a read. I guess if there’s no other way of being important, such an addiction, mixed with immense hubris, might be the perfect way to pass one’s time. Big fish in small ponds………

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  809. Ex-D,

    Your post is so lucid, and you make so many good and valid points. Heartfelt thanks for sharing your experience, and yes, I imagine it does stir up feelings from the past. Just wanted to say thanks. May respond more to some of your points later. If you would like to get in touch and talk off line, I can arrange to get my email ad sent to you. I could put you in touch with some others who have stood in similiar shoes to yours.

    Again, thanks for your courage and sharing.

    Like

  810. Hello all,

    Thank you all for your warm and supportive comments. And yes, don’t worry Marte I am OK. I have and continue to receive support and though it would be exaggerating to say that I have “worked through” this experience completely, I have processed things enough so that recounting a part of it doesn’t trigger me anymore. That doesn’t mean that writing here didn’t bring a few things up for me – but watching the documentary and reading this articles provoked many more feelings for me.

    I am outraged that Tibetan Buddhists will not stand up and be clear that sexual involvement between a teacher and his students is unacceptable. You may argue that details are exaggerated about stories that are recounted (I won’t) you may argue about people’s motives- but no one can possibly deny that Sogyal Rinpoche has had sex with many of his students in the past and that he continues to do so.

    Then there is the level of abuse, which I think comes from a few different places. One is the set up of the teachings where the women around him, like I was, are striving to efface themselves completely. I was trying to get rid of my “self,” and as such I ignored any messages from my unconscious that told me that the situation was wrong. I gladly accepted being ordered around, being yelled at, being treated like an object, the constant useless work, the lack of any of my needs even being considered. Bella, you ask why I wasn’t comfortable in the relationship with SR. That is because even though I practiced and practiced letting go of my feelings at the end of the day part of me cried out against having sex with a man who treated me like an object – who said only “take off your clothes” or “go have a shower” or who told me to move this way or that, even if he was my teacher. SR literally only gave me orders for the first six months that I was having sex with him. Maybe he was “testing” my devotion.

    The other tragic thing I sense from Mimi and other stories is that Sogyal Rinpoche’s addiction to sex, which is in opposition to a lawsuit and people speaking out and common sense has created a situation ruled by secrecy, paranoia, and isolation. I think he has become so isolated and it has been so long since he has experienced women as equals that his behavior has become even more twisted and sick. I saw him becoming more paranoid and reactive the longer I was with him, and when I left his rage at me was so intense that I was not surprised to hear about things that Janice Doe was subjected to. He had started to do a few of them to me too. And now it seems that it has become even worse.

    Just one last point – I’m not sure people can appreciate how difficult speaking out about this for women can be. I have many advantages – a loving family who supported me though this, many years to have processed this, and though Rigpa was my life for some time I never lost my base of support outside. But although you may think that what I recounted previously was shattering, what is more shattering is to hear and begin to suspect that something that you have considered to be sacred and beautiful is actually abusive and ugly. Serving Sogyal Rinpoche thought I was sacrificing myself to a sacred task. I thought that I was getting rid of my ego to be a better person. I thought I was devoting my life to a man who was helping many people and who was compassionate and wise. What I did was largely fed by a great love before the pain and confusion that always lurked in the background broke through and took over.

    When I left Rigpa and people from the therapeutic community told me that I had been abused, for years it felt like they were the ones abusing me. Although I knew that my teacher had done things that weren’t right, I could not talk to people who I felt labeled my experience and made me a victim. Me? A victim? Abused? How could my feelings and experiences be reduced to something so ugly? Can you imagine the confusion? And then the shame? The gap between these two versions – on one hand the crazy wisdom master awakening the devoted student to enlightenment, on the other the addicted egomaniac manipulating his victim for sex – is so huge it almost swallowed up my sanity. To ask a woman – or any Rigpa student – to move from one version to the other is to ask them to give up a part of themselves.

    So as much as I appreciate DI’s article here, and as much as I think Sogyal Rinpoche’s own behavior creates this situation entirely, it makes me very sad. There are so many good people involved. And many who will never be able to understand something they label – as Bella has – lurid and attacking. Yet at this point there seem to be no other way to get the truth across. There’s more to say but I’ve said enough.

    Thank you again for your support, it is meaningful to me, and I hope that again what I have said can be useful in some way —

    Ex D

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  811. “So I am on the point of a nervous breakdown.”

    Ex-Dakini, are you ok? I hope telling your story here did not trigger you too much.

    I think of you and sent you my warm wishes!!!

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  812. I think it is very nice to say I was wrong, with regard to Bella’s reaction.

    I strongly recommend people read Scott Edelsteins book ‘Sex and the Spiritual Teacher’.

    http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=22688
    Ex-dakini, your coming forward and sharing your experience here is invaluable, and I appeal to any other lurkers who have experiences to share here, as it is anonymous, and needs to be heard.

    Rigpa top guns, or those who know them pass on this appeal -it is time to break out of your delusion that the behaviour of Sogyal Rinpoches is harmless and acceptable. People are hurting. People who entered Rigpa as open and full of devotion as Bella and have had years of mental anguish if like ex-dakini, the trust in the teacher is broken and abused. It has a ripple out effect and harms many many people. Please, do sit up and listen and take action.

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  813. Good for you bella, for opening up your heart and showing empathy and compassion!

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  814. Marte- sorry but you need to see a shrink and lay off the acid-but |I still care about you

    Bella-thats the first sensible post youve written since youve been here-not because you agree that Srs behavior is wrong but because you respond to X dakin as a human being with humility and empathy-well done bella-I knew youd come good in the end

    Orgy is a subjective word
    Girlie pictures are not unusual ( I have a picture of Lama Thubten yeseh looking at Playboy) and breast comparisons are normal behaviour for sexist males

    Speak up Sheila

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  815. Ex-Dakini,
    You have great courage. Even if people accuse you of all sorts, know that you are doing the right thing in telling your story. I am very sorry to hear it and I wish you all the best in rebuilding your strength and healing up such wounds.

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  816. Tiger Lily, did Mimi/Janine tell you about orgies, girlie pictures and breast comparisons – or are they invented by the author?

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  817. Dear ex-Dakini,
    Your courageous sharing of your experience really touched me. Your intelligence and dignity shine through and i feel much respect and sympathy for you. Your account is similar in many ways to that which the young Frenchwoman related to me of her unhappy time in the harem and the confusion she experienced.
    It is this aspect of SR’s behaviour that the senior students at Rigpa really must face up to.
    Thankyou and very well done.

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  818. Thank you for your story, Ex-dakini.

    It’s a touching one.

    I would rather believe this kind of story than any of those in BTT.

    If this has really happened, then I’m very sorry for you.

    By female hunters I meant the woman who describes her sexual adventures with lamas and Buddhists on retreats in American Buddha. Like I said: I didn’t mean you, but I just happen to know those women exist too.

    I don’t know what else could convince people except touching and personal stories like yours? (MF and her stories do not.)

    If he has treated you this way, I think he doesn’t understand women and should stop this behavior. From your description I believe he was very attached to you.

    What was the thing that made you want to separate from him in the first place? “I had been in a sexual relationship with SR for some time and knew that it wasn’t right for me.”

    It was right for you to stop the relationship, if it wasn’t right for you. I have been in similar situations with men many times, so I do understand exactly what you mean by it. Then trying to stay even though your whole being tells you not to. I have been in that place too with a man.

    I also understand you had to leave, completely. I could imagine things to happen exactly like you described in a relationship to a lama. Too bad he wasn’t willing to let go of you easily.

    Thank you for a story that reached me too. I don’t feel the need to question it.

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  819. Ex-Dakini,

    do you really feel ok by writing about your traumas here?

    “At that point I pretty much leave my body and watch myself from above while he does to me what he will. It was at that point something in me broke.”

    That means the complete breakdown of your psychic system and the flight into dissoziations, the only protection of your life, otherwise you would have died. It is very serious, I know, what I am talking about. Did you had some effective help?

    Sogyal is an asshole and a murder of souls. Nothing more, nothing less.

    That is what I wrote about the psychopathic tantric masters::

    “There is a moment, when all hope goes by, all proud vanishs, all expectation, all faith, all longing. That moment is mine. Than I listen to the tone of a flawing soul.

    It is not a loud cracking sound like splintering bones, when a spine is breaking or a skull is bursting. And also not smooth and moist like a breaking heart. It is a tone when someone asks how much pain can a human sustain; a tone, which is dashing to pieces the mind and letting the past seep into present, a tone so high that only the dogs of hell can listen to.

    Do you hear that? Someone has curled up like a tiny sphere and is crying noiseless into an endless night.”

    They love it and enjoy it! Just every single broken soul!

    And please, Ex-Dakini, never use “please” in the discussion with bellab. She is an accomplice of the criminals.

    You seem so vulnerarable, take care of you!

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  820. Ex-Dakini,

    Thank you for finding the courage to share these intimate details here. Whether they convince bella is really not that relevant (and it probably won’t) but it is important, in that you maybe preventing others from suffering the same fate as you, and is therefore an act of care and compassion towards others, and for the greater good. Please do not doubt then, that this is not the right thing to do!

    With metta,
    sankappa

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  821. Ditto

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  822. Ex-Dakini, thank you for sharing. I think testimony like your own -although it will inevitably be met with hostility, acrimony, and all sorts of accusations by the likes of Shiela and Bellab,- is invaluable. Until women like yourself have the courage to speak out-and this is a safe space-apart from unwelcome and insensitive reactions, then some will hear and think a minute, before they go on . I applaud your courage. No it wasn’t too long either. Thank you.

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  823. Bella

    “At least I think most women are bound by conventional expectations”

    Lets look at ‘conventions’

    From the conventional worldly perspective, it is totally wrong for a teacher to have sex with students

    From the conventional Theravadin perspective, where sexual desire is considered a source of suffering and the teacher is seen as a wise ‘Elder’ (sthavira) any such action clearly constitutes immoral behaviour

    From the conventional Mahayana perspective, where the teacher is a ‘virtuous spiritual friend’ (Kalayana Mitrata)any such act wpuld clearly be considered non-virtuous: ‘spiritual friends’ do not have casual sexual relations.

    From the conventional tantric perspective, unless a sexual partenr has received appropriate initiations and is of thee same level of experience as her partner, any sexaul activity is considered inappropriate.

    Therefore, from the persoectives of wordlings, Theravadins, Mahayanists and tantrikas, sex with students is considered wrong.

    So Bella…….From which perspective therefore is it considered ‘right’ for Buddhist teachers to have sexual relations with novice students?

    Do you deny that Sogyal has had sex with any of his students?

    How do you justify this?

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  824. My dear Bella,

    Well, I’m glad we agree that a teacher ought not to sleep with students. That is a start. As to your other points, lets leave them for now.

    So you say:

    I do not believe this to happen. People can’t even talk to him privately, if they are not working in Rigpa – and even then quite rarely. People can see him addressing questions to working people in public and we may wonder why he doesn’t ask them in some other room. Why is he asking them here in the beginning of a teaching? Probably, because he hasn’t talked to them nor seen them the whole day.

    SR is constantly giving instructions to people, and much of it is during his teaching time. When he’s not teaching he’s in his private quarters wherever they are. What does he do when he’s not teaching? He’s eating, talking on the phone, watching TV and interacting with the women who take care of him and a few of his senior students. Yes, the vast majority of people he only sees when he’s walking into the teaching podium or when he’s leaving it. But there is a constant flow of people in and out of his private room who see him for different reasons. Outside of his room most people are in the kitchen cooking or waiting to be seen – they go in and out. And it is not unusual for someone to turn up and say “Rinpoche told me to come and visit him.” They are welcomed in like everyone else and have their tea and are announced and then are called in for their turn.

    Now people can’t necessarily talk to him privately if they want, but if he wants I saw him invite all kinds of people to talk with him. Of course not all are women who he wants to have sex with. But some might be. And years ago he would invite people to visit him after a public talk, some of them people he had just met. At a retreat you might get that invitation as well – “come and see me after the teaching.” In my case I was doing prostrations and later that morning at breakfast a woman who was one of SR’s attendants came to me and said “Rinpoche saw you practicing and was so impressed with your dedication. He wants you to come by and say hello some time.” But Bella, even before this happened I had experienced a few very short times with SR privately in that after a public talk or during a retreat he would ask me to see him – I thought he had a fatherly interest in me, – and I would show up at his quarters, get invited into the kitchen, be announced and go in like everyone else. It seems ridiculous to explain all this here and publicly at that so I apologize for boring everyone else but Bella seems to need everything spelled out.

    Now Bella, your reaction to what I wrote does not incline me to tell you much about my story, especially when you write about how women are hunters…. but I can put that aside for a moment. But I am even more loath to disclose details about other women’s stories which could in any way compromise them. But a woman I knew simply was invited back after a public talk. As I said, this wasn’t all that unusual. She showed up, she was shown into SR’s apartment, the door closed and they were alone together. It was the first night they had met, and the sexual relationship began there. Another woman was at her first retreat. Same thing, she gets invited to his quarters, etc.

    You ask me to explain my point

    “I knew women who were seduced when they were in distress.”

    OK I can talk about my own story here. So I am on the point of a nervous breakdown. I had been in a sexual relationship with SR for some time and knew that it wasn’t right for me. It caused me a tremendous amount of confusion. I did more and more practice, but it didn’t help. I had confided in senior students and their advice – which was to stop seeing the teacher with my judgmental mind and use pure perception – wasn’t helping. I had told SR about this several times, and finally told him that I couldn’t be with him anymore.

    He left me alone for a while, but then after an absence, called me in and presented me with a divination from a senior lama that being with him would help him and his teachings. He gave me gifts and was actually a little bit tender (which was quite unusual.) I slept with him and regretted it immediately, but also was confused about this hint of some kind of special role I was supposed to play in his destiny. I told him again that I couldn’t be with him, that it caused me too many risings, and I tried to stay away from him physically. But I kept getting scheduled for “lama care” and that means dressing him and undressing him and running him baths and giving him massages. He kept trying to touch me, and I would push him away in a gentle way and try to joke, he kept at it and I would move away physically.

    Imagine please, he was my root lama and I saw him as the source of great benefit and this way he was behaving was making me sick, but I kept up my practice and just prayed that one day I would understand all of this, but almost every time I would see him he would harass me. And please factor in the lack of sleep that happens when you care for a man who is up at all hours and who doesn’t know how to make a cup of tea or butter a piece of toast. Now other things start to heat up in my life because I’m starting to act out with addictions because I just can’t contain this stress. I had dedicated my life to SR and I couldn’t understand what I was supposed to do.

    I reach a very low point, a very low point. I decide that the problem is me. That if I wasn’t who I was, that SR wouldn’t be attracted to me and that I need to go away from everyone. We are on retreat. There is a break for lunch. I go to find him where I knew he would be eating. I knock on the door and go in, by chance no one else is there. I come to him and I start to cry and I kneel in front of him and I say “Rinpoche, I feel so terrible, I think something is wrong with me, can you please send me into retreat somewhere.” and he stands up, walks to the door and locks it. He comes back to me pulls me to him and starts to kiss me and take my clothes off and fondle me. At that point I pretty much leave my body and watch myself from above while he does to me what he will. It was at that point something in me broke.

    Does that qualify Bella? I’m not going to tell you other women’s stories. But some I heard were just as bad as mine. And I might not post much more because I have said plenty- though I’ve only told you a little bit of my experience, I can tell you all about the harem part – but if you can’t see that there is a problem here, then you have a problem. Yes, there are people running around with all kinds of agendas. But you would have to be crazy to deny that SR has slept with many many of his students. And please everyone else I apologize for the length of this post. I hope that in some way this has been helpful, though I do question whether or not it was right for me to disclose so much, so if there was wrong in it I apologize.

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  825. Personally I don’t think it’s a good idea for a teacher to have a sexual relationship to a student.

    At least I think most women are bound by conventional expectations and get disappointed.

    I am also aware how women can be drawn to men of power, whom seem to offer security: there’s no age limit there, even the old and the wise ones can be drawn, but are usually mature enough not to follow impulses. And also men can be drawn towards teachers sexually. Doctor, nurse and teacher professions are often considered the sexiest. Why, one could wonder. People who take care of you and are close to you are considered sexy?

    I also read in some of the stories in American Buddha that some women are consciously after the lamas, especially the lamas. In those cases I do not consider them pure students, but hunters of their own kind. Women should also stop to think what are they after: a teacher-student relationship or a boyfriend? And: I’m not referring to you by this, but making a general point, since I have also a few times in my life had to consider where to draw my own line with a teacher (not with SR).

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  826. Dear Bella,

    I have not posted anywhere on the internet except for once on an earlier DI thread under this same name.

    Before even considering answering any of your questions, I would like to know; do you think it is appropriate for Sogyal Rinpoche or other spiritual teachers to have sex with their students?

    ex-D

    Like

  827. Vera,

    I think this maybe the “doctor” bellaB is referring to:

    “So here is a bit more of my story:

    In the mid 80’s, during my seven years with Rigpa and 4 years as founding director of a national Rigpa branch, I had slowly discovered that Sogyal Rinpoche had sex with very many disciples. Even though I was very close to SR, it took me some time to notice the obvious. Even though I am a professional counselor, it took me quite some time to notice it at all, and then it took me even more time to take action…”

    from:http://www.american-buddha.com/am.learn.8.htm

    If this is the person, then it is clearly not ex-Dakini – but no surprises there. Interpretation of events, etc is not bella’s strong point.

    Cheers,
    sankappa

    Like

  828. Looks like that last word again bella. In fact two last words this time.

    You must have “corrected their views” again, and they have gone away to contemplate on their ignorance.

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  829. And I do not want to post the link of the doctor. I have a flue, work and I need to sleep. I have looked up so much already for my text, I don’t want to go through it all again. The comment could have been in RR or American Buddha too (I doubt it was in AB though).

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  830. I am also myself tired posting here.

    Why did I began? I saw MF/pema’s slanderous posts and wanted to correct that view (and others have tried that too before me in Google groups).

    Then I decided I will correct especially her mistakes when I see them, because I saw an agenda behind the comments that wanted to paint a really disgusting picture of SR – and she didn’t care if facts held or not.

    At the end there is the testimony BTT. Finally I could read a description of events that I heard only hints about and the usual generalizations from people who do not know anything.

    I checked from my friend what are the true stories of ‘harem women’ in the BTT. They do not match with her description. I also could tell my own experiences in Rigpa. My friend has worked longer than Mimi in LL and he knows a lot of people.

    It was also easy to respond to a complete package of slander like BTT. I also wished I could stay away from here after that.

    Please, continue among yourselves.

    Do not invite me here, if you don’t want to be sucked! :)

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  831. Bella, you have lived on this website you say for two years, I want to ask you what keeps you posting, when it is clear there is nothing in the world that would change your own beliefs…so why bother, why not just go and practice or immerse yourself in Rigpa and ignore all this gossip, Bella.

    Also, please can you post the link to where you found the dr who said and I quote you:
    “The doc said: she didn’t see anything in the beginning, but then she realized women were offered to SR on their first retreat, which is utter BS.”

    That makes someone else who didn’t talk to Mary Finnigan,eh?

    I think you are what somemight call an energy vampire. You feed off of this stuff don’t you?

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  832. What is the insensitive part?

    I’m pretty offended by the rude descriptions of BTT.

    If Ex-dakini has experienced similar things as Mimi, whom she defends, I’d like to know about it. Then there would two people, not just Mimi.

    Or do you ALSO – like me – consider the harem descriptions and so forth really crazy? When I am asking Ex-dakini to describe her similar (?) experiences, does it equal to the madness of the BTT?

    What bothers you in my request?

    Is there a danger that Ex-dakini’s comment would make Mimi/Janine’s story seem unique and completely invented?

    Where in the line of descriptions do you stand?

    Nothing ———— something ——- BTT is the truth
    has happened has happened

    If one questions BTT does it mean nothing has happened?
    Can one ask what exactly has happened?

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  833. If you’d bothered to actually read what ex-dakini said, she wrote:

    “I did post on DI once before when the briefing document first came up. I have a hard time reading your drivel.”

    I think this might mean she does what I do, with most of your posts and that is to scroll down through them. In any case, no matter if someone read each and every post of yours, unless they get into a cross-examination of what you really mean, (as I have just now) it’s unlikely they’d make any sense out of them.

    Personally too, I find your post to ex-dakini so utterly insensitive and so lacking in empathy, even given you disbelieve anyone who says they have had a bad time with Sogyal sexually involving them…you may have just taken a second and thought about someone other than your self. You are an arse.

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  834. Ex-Dakini,

    you have all the the right in the world not to discuss with BellaB. There is nothing to answer. You know, what you have been exposed to and you wrote it in a plausible manner. Just leave her alone in her delusion!

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  835. Maybe I’m assuming people have been following this page as long as I have. Ex-dakini has and I directed my response to her.

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  836. So now you’re even contradicting yourself! Krists sake, please at least do us all a favour and write so it makes sense, because most of the time it doesn’t.
    Let me remind you what you wrote:

    ‘She also said she was there for quite a while without seeing anything, even though she was a doctor.’

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  837. I didn’t ask these questions from you.

    Look up the doctor’s statement so you can verify yourself what she wrote. I think it was a comment in DI, but I’m not sure.

    The doc said: she didn’t see anything in the beginning, but then she realized women were offered to SR on their first retreat, which is utter BS.

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  838. ‘Ex-dakini, are you the doctor who wrote her stories elsewhere in the internet? She also said she was there for quite a while without seeing anything, even though she was a doctor.’

    Bella, why would you think that? The doctor you refer to said she hadn’t seen anything, yet this woman here, said she was used by Sogyal, sexually. So what is the connection, or are you just totally nuts and things don’t have to connect in your world…I really think you may well have a few internal loose connections.

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  839. She didn’t say, she is a doctor. Why don’t you read my post: I asked HER if she is the doctor, who wrote a similar story elsewhere in the internet?

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  840. Bella dear, if you are going to post here, at least try and read the posts properly. Where does Ex-Dakini say she is a doctor?

    “Ex-dakini, are you the doctor who wrote her stories elsewhere in the internet? She also said she was there for quite a while without seeing anything, even though she was a doctor.”

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  841. Krist on a bike.

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  842. Correction: 4. Did he hit you daily – and with what?

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  843. Ex-dakini, are you the doctor who wrote her stories elsewhere in the internet? She also said she was there for quite a while without seeing anything, even though she was a doctor.

    This point is something that made me doubt her story – and unfortunately yours too:

    “I knew more than several women who were seduced after their first teaching or at their first retreat.”

    I do not believe this to happen. People can’t even talk to him privately, if they are not working in Rigpa – and even then quite rarely. People can see him addressing questions to working people in public and we may wonder why he doesn’t ask them in some other room. Why is he asking them here in the beginning of a teaching? Probably, because he hasn’t talked to them nor seen them the whole day.

    Can you also explain this point:
    “I knew women who were seduced when they were in distress.”

    Who was seduced? Deidre? V. Barlow? Can you tell in detail how the situations have evolved? Misstyk in Rick Ross asked this too (I copied her post here in this thread earlier) and I’m really interested to know more details how it happened.

    “Others like myself had been involved in the organization for a while before he communicated his desire for sex.”

    In which year or decade did this happen?

    “I can count the names of 15 women who I knew that SR was sexually involved with.”

    “it was clear to me and other women that we were among a certain number that attended to his sexual needs. We discussed it among ourselves though not always explicitly. And many of those women had husbands and boyfriends.”

    So, are you sure you were all – and which ones were – ‘attending his sexual needs’, if you didn’t talk directly about it to one another?
    1. Did you feel it shameful to talk?
    2. Did you attend orgies?
    3. Where you standing in line when SR compared your breasts with other women’s breasts?
    4. Did you hit you daily – and with what?
    5. The boyfriends of those workers were they Rigpa people or some other people?
    6. What common ground can you find with Mimi/Janine’s story? Her story is very detailed so I think you can easily compare her story to yours.

    “Now BellaB, if people from Rigpa could identify me, which I’m sure they are frantically trying to do, they would tell you many things about how unbalanced I am.”

    I’m not asking these questions to identify you, but I’m interested in your answers so I can form some idea about the whole thing. I’m not in email contact with other people than my friend in Rigpa.

    “I am truly sorry for you that your attachment to your own teacher cannot allow you to see things that are truthful.”

    Unfortunately the stories in BTT do not seem – and I have also checked in reality – truthful and I wrote those points in the “View from a Parallel Universe” in another thread.

    I’d like you to compare in detail your own experience with Mimi’s and see what of those described events are similar to yours?

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  844. Ex-Dakini, yes, thanks for testimony. It takes courage to speak out, and for sharing your wisdom learnt the hard way.
    Especially galling to hear how your name was blackened after you got free of Rigpa, but am not unduly suprised, and am sure the same thing will happen with regard to other women and men who get free.
    You are right -it is not appropriate for a spiritual teacher to have sex with a student. Cries of ‘but he is not celibate!’ don’t wash either…if we go to a dr for help and get sexually accosted, we would take it to the GMC. Yet GP’s aren’t celibate either! Often the dharma is likened to medicine and the teacher to a dr, yet when sex is introduced into that equation…on bogus grounds, then it is a gross misappropriation of priveledge and power. End of. It is about time those closest disciples of Sogyal, owned up to this, esp. those therapists among them, and confront him and demand he seeks help. Thanks for sharing ex-dakini

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  845. Thank you for your testimony, ex-Dakini!

    I know how difficult it is to have a public coming-out after suffering that much. Only a few victims can do that on a forum like DI. We don`t do it for peeping toms or for those who are constantly disowning the facts like Sheila and BellaB, but to raise our voices against mendacity and a mafia-like secrecy.

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  846. Oh, and just to be clear – I have never spoken with Mary Finnegan.

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  847. For BellaB – though have a feeling there is not point in talking to you – I will respond. I did post on DI once before when the briefing document first came up. I have a hard time reading your drivel.

    My handful of years in Rigpa led me to witness first hand that Sogyal Rinpoche was a compulsive seducer of women. I knew more than several women who were seduced after their first teaching or at their first retreat. I knew women who were seduced when they were in distress. Others like myself had been involved in the organization for a while before he communicated his desire for sex. I am not including in this summary by the way anything that has been published by DI, these are things individuals told me personally some years ago.

    I can count the names of 15 women who I knew that SR was sexually involved with. And I wasn’t around for all that long. I suggest that those of you still involved in Rigpa who care about this to simply ask your lama how many of his students he has had sex with. I think its a fair question to ask a spiritual leader. These women – myself included – were his students. Not women who he met in other circumstances.

    Now to address your points specifically, my experience was that not all women who attend to SR sleep with him. But quite a few do. And many more who care for him had previously been a sexual partner of his. And yes, my experience was harem-like in that it was clear to me and other women that we were among a certain number that attended to his sexual needs. We discussed it among ourselves though not always explicitly. And many of those women had husbands and boyfriends.

    I don’t think that it is appropriate in this time and place for a spiritual leader to have sex with his students. Others agree with me for many reasons. I especially don’t think it is appropriate when it happens frequently and for many years. It was not a positive experience for me. Other women would not say this, and I am happy that they do not experience the suffering I did. But the fact that all women do not complain does not make his actions correct.

    Now there is also a lot to say about the actual experience of those of us who ended up in SR’s bed. And there are things to say about the validity of his education and teachings. If pressed I can add thoughts on both of those topics. But as important as those are, I think that the basic issue here is the inappropriateness of sexual relations between teacher and student. The risk of the abuse of power is too great. So while shocking, it should be no surprise that the women’s voices in these pages recount abusive experiences. Abuse is what is most likely to happen when there is such a power differential. I learned that the hard way.

    Now BellaB, if people from Rigpa could identify me, which I’m sure they are frantically trying to do, they would tell you many things about how unbalanced I am. I know that they did so when I left Rigpa, and I know that many prayers were recited for me in Penor Rinpoche’s monastery. But I am quite sane, I assure you.

    My years in Rigpa and leaving it taught me that people will do amazing things in order to protect their own belief system. Good people will lie to themselves and others rather than question their own spiritual beliefs. To do so is too threatening to themselves. I am truly sorry for you that your attachment to your own teacher cannot allow you to see things that are truthful. I am so grateful that I am free from that one particular limitation.

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  848. Agony Aunt and Bellab-get a room!!!

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  849. If my reputation is gone, so be it.

    Friends don’t give a damn about one’s reputation, so what do I have got to lose?

    That is not a reason why I write here.

    If I see a lie, I point it out.

    If I suspect a lie, I also point that out.

    If – at the end of the day – I was wrong, then I was. I didn’t intentionally try to misguide anyone. I wrote what I know.

    I don’t believe in God, even though it would be comforting if he was there. I don’t believe in Satan either – and I’m glad he is not there.

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  850. Sankappa
    Bella does not see the irony of her own comments because she is so enthralled by the Rigpa dream-therefore all criticism is ‘lies’ and all critics ‘liars’ The attacks on MF are typical of cult zealots who have no proper strategy for countering criticism except to deny or to attack –the level of ad hominem attacks here against her are akin to those one would normally associate with the Scientology besmirching machine.

    I recently pointed out how bellas english usage indicates she is N European (probably Nordic) If one calculates the size of the Rigpa following in these countries, some do not even amount to double figures. I beleive bella to be a leading member of a small Nordic Rigpa group, with a relatively small following, whose whole existence revolves around the deification of Sogyal.

    With such a background, she would have so much to lose if the allegations become more widespread. Hence her thoroughly unweilding intransigence in all matters of criticism of her god-like saviour. How could it be otherwise when she has so much to lose-Her standing, her reputation, her God?

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  851. I know a person who I trust more than anybody on the Earth, who told me the true stories and life situations of those claimed (by Janine, Mimi) harem victims. He has been in Rigpa longer than said air pilot and his daughter.

    I really do not want to repeat in detail about those women’s lives, since I don’t have their permission to do that.

    All I can say that

    a) they don’t belong to a harem

    b) most have boyfriends or husbands of their own. Some of the boyfriends are also known Rigpa people – and they would know if their women were abused. Those women are 8. Do you really think they would all have multiple sexual relationships? Do you sincerely believe Rigpa consists of totally insane people? If you do, then I cannot argue with you. Just go and meet the people yourself.

    c) some of the women have children of their own – and they are not SR’s.

    Who wrote the BTT blog? If it’s MF and Janine together, I think MF has found her young match. If Janine didn’t write parts of the blog, then I think the author has also dragged her name into a filth.

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  852. BellaB, you are really a Bodhisattva, working in skiifull and profound ways and a posting from an other- worldly dimension.

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  853. It occurred to me that bella does not even get the irony of her own statements. But then the thought occurred to me that perhaps she does, and not only that, her real intention is to actually draw attention to Sogyal’s abuse, while appearing to defend him. I think I read this somewhere else, so I’m not the first person to consider it. It’s the only way I can explain what appear to be some of the completely self-uncensored statements.

    So tell us bellaB are you really a double agent?

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  854. Why haven’t the other close workers reported being hit?

    He only hits Janine, the youngest and the weakest?

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  855. sankappa, my problem is her whole story, not just the doc.

    If she claims people, who do not belong to a harem, belongs to a harem, then one cannot really believe anything for sure, can one? Or did the author of the BTT added the rest of the story from his/her fantasy?

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  856. The above reply from bellaB reminds me of a Monty Python skit – “That parrot’s not dead, it’s only resting…”

    “-being asked once to take off her clothes (after 2 months of working there -> she felt bad about it but remained for another 3 years!)
    – beating everyday (in the manner like earlier lamas did, with stick, not necessarily at all hard)”

    It’s hard to believe what I’m reading at times, what these people put up as defenses for the indefensible. No wonder it seems like a comedy routine.

    I would strongly advise everyone to watch this documentary for themselves (not that this needs to be said, but just in case).

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  857. I finally saw the documentary. In the documentary Mimi didn’t say much about the nature of the abuse, except
    – being asked once to take off her clothes (after 2 months of working there -> she felt bad about it but remained for another 3 years!)
    – beating everyday (in the manner like earlier lamas did, with stick, not necessarily at all hard)

    I do not believe SR has been hitting her playfully or not, and especially not everyday. She would have complained to her father about it a long ago. Why did she remain there anyway, if she was there in the first place because of her own father?

    I actually liked Stephen Batchelor. Still I think he can only talk in a very general manner or does he know Sogyal Rinpoche?

    Martine Batchelor… I think it sound a bit too much about a Zen versus Tibetan Buddhism comparison. Again I have to say she talks in a general manner – and I wouldn’t think of her as a source for anything, except repeating MF’s words. If I had had a personal talk with her, I would have thought afterwards: oh well, the conversation didn’t bring much new.

    It also was said in the documentary that VB was his girlfriend, not a random student. Did she ever tell him about her childhood abuse?

    If somebody has colored – or added quite a lot of coloring into the events in BTT, I think it doesn’t help their case. Like I said in my response, I think most can be questioned in BTT.

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  858. The below is a copy of a part of a discussion between me (sankappa) and Sheila that has been ongoing on the Dialogue Ireland Forum regarding the documenatry, “In the Name of Enlightenement.” It can be found here: http://www.dialogueireland.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8&start=10 if you would like to get the full context of the thread.

    I have posted it here becuse I believe it lends wieght to the abuse claims made in “Behind the Thangkas.”

    Sheila wrote on Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:02 pm:

    ….Sankappa, in no civilized country is it up to anyone to prove innocence.

    There are no criminal charges being brought against Sogyal Rinpoche, nor have there ever been.

    I’m sorry, but The Young Lady Mimi’s allegations have been pre-trivialized by the unfortunate work of Victoria Barlow, Mary Finnigan, and the Misstyks and Blue Dakinis of the world.

    Agony Aunt wrote on Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:21 pm:

    And the Guardian article, and the Sunday Times, and the Telegraph, and………Sometimes it must hard bieng the only perosn thats always right in a world of fools, fantasists and lairs

    Sankappa wrote on Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:11 pm:

    …Sheila, you usually struggle when put on the spot, but the above as a reply, is poor even by your standards. So I’ll take it that you have no evidence that Mimi/Janine is lying about her abuse by Sogyal Rinpoche in “Behind the Thangkas” and “In the Name of Enlightenment”.

    On the contrary Victoria Barlow, Mary Finnigan, and Misstyk are doing courageous and compassionate work, some of them having suffered abuse as well. But as we don’t agree on your assessment of their characters, have Mimi’s claims been “pre-trivialized” as you put it, by Stephen and Martine Batchelor, who have lent their support to this documentary?

    themadhair wrote on Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:10 am:

    Off-topic posts moved to here: [link not included]

    Sankappa wrote on Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:15 am:

    Sheila, this thread is about Stephen Bachelor’s comments on Sogyal Rinpoche’s abuse in “In the Name of Enlightenment” not on Sakya Trizin, etc. Perhaps you are employing your usual tactics of off-topic banter when you don’t want to answer a question. So back to topic, and the question I will now ask for a third time:

    On the contrary Victoria Barlow, Mary Finnigan, and Misstyk are doing courageous and compassionate work, some of them having suffered abuse as well. But as we don’t agree on your assessment of their characters, have Mimi’s claims been “pre-trivialized” as you put it, by Stephen and Martine Batchelor, who have lent their support to this documentary?

    Not answering this question is beginning to look like avoidance. (Too-hard basket, maybe?).

    Sankappa wrote on Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:59 am:

    So Sheila I have waited for 2 days for you to respond to this question, and as yet you have not. Very uncharacteristic of you Sheila, except when you want to avoid the hard asks. And no doubt the reason you have been avoiding, or have been unable to answer this question, is that you cannot trash the reputations of Stephen and Martine Batchelor as you tried to with others (eg Mary Finnegan) thereby creating doubt and discrediting their claims.

    So let’s be very clear here of what the implications are for the claims of abuse against Sogyal Rinpoche. You have two very high profile and learned Buddhists, experienced practitioners within all the main traditions, with almost 80 years of Buddhist knowledge between them and extremely well respected within the Buddhist world, who have lent their support to the claims of abuse against Sogyal Rinpoche in the documentary “In the Name of Enlightenment.” Their support to these claims blows a serious hole in your argument that Sogyal Rinpoche is innocent. An argument that has been based around these premises: those making the claims against him are unreliable due to dubious character or motives, or are part of a PRC conspiracy against Tibet and Tibetan Lamas, or are somehow associated with a conglomerate of other forces determined to tear-down Tibetan Buddhism and culture. Stephen and Martine Batchelor do not fit into any of these categories. (Although I’m sure now you will give it a go to make them fit – well let’s see you, or bellaB try!). They have lent their support to these abuse claims, because they well know they are true. They are concerned enough to speak out for the care and compassion of the individuals harmed and for the greater good of Buddhism. This is how you fix the problem – first acknowledge there is a problem, take measures to fix it, then move on. (But first you need to acknowledge it). Not stick your head in the sand, deny there is a problem and protect the guilty.

    Furthermore, by the Batchelors lending their support to the claims of abuse made in this documentary, it now stands to reason that at the very least, the same claims made by Dakini Janine (Mimi in the documentary) but in greater detail in “Behind the Thangkas,” are indeed highly credible.

    We shouldn’t need to go to the extent of using figures of such high-standing as the Batchelors to lend credence to those who have directly claimed abuse, particularly when we can see them and hear their stories through the very intimate medium of film; but it is unfortunately necessary to do so, due to the blind deniers and those with less than wholesome motives. However, this will still not be good enough for them.

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  859. Yep that’s good advice, neasod. Download VLC player, it plays all file formats and is free.

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  860. the downloads wrok no problem, but it simply wont work on my computer.

    The files are flash video, which the default players that come with your computer won’t play.

    I recommend VLC Player which can play flash video files (and almost everything else under the sun):
    http://www.videolan.org/vlc/

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  861. “Of the allegations against SR, many are a single allegations repeated under different pseudonyms (Mimi/Janine)”

    Sheila, Denial is not a dialogue or a defence. I am afraid your inability to employ anything other than lies as a counter claim smacks of desperation

    Yintongdiddle I po

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  862. Sankappa. the downloads wrok no problem, but it simply wont work on my computer. Will try to find it another way. Thanks a million anyway.

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  863. ps. I know many find this insulting, but I have not met any single person who can lie as much as certain people – and considered them “normal”. It’s pathology.

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  864. There are multiple allegations against the people you guys blindly protect here. Of the allegations against SR, many are a single allegations repeated under different pseudonyms (Mimi/Janine).

    None of the allegations, against any of these teachers, is even remotely convincing; and censored dialogue is not dialogue. Go mbeannaí Dia dhaoibh.

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  865. “Sheila, on January 5, 2012 at 10:48 pm said:
    I’m curious. If I accuse Sogyal Rinpoche, his name will not be removed. If mention someone else’s accusation against HHST, his name will be removed.

    Both are free men, living as citizens with full rights, and neither facing any criminal charges.

    Given that no criminal charges are pending, on what basis does Dialogue Ireland act as judge and jury of innocent men?”

    Sheila
    This is probably the fifteenth time you have asked this question, it having received the same response each time

    Get it in your head: In the case of SR, there are multiple allegations, from multiple sources, that have occurred over a significant period of time and which have been supported by various instances of media coverage, all of which have gone unchallenged legally

    In the case of the other teacher you mentioned, there is only one allegation, from one source, a single allegation which has been repeated under various pseudonyms, alleging one act of abuse that supposedly took place many years ago.

    In such a case, it seems wise to err on the side of caution before needlessly repeating said allegation,Furthermore in light of there being little evidence to support the allegation, it being based on one persons testimony alone, it would be unethical to repeat it here.

    This always has been the answer to your oft repeated pedantry and will remain so in the future

    Please do not ask this question again

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  866. Sorry neasod, I just reread your last post and noticed you said “another” link. Unfortunately this the only link I know of. I have just tried downloading again and there seems to be no problem. I have noticed that the security code you need to enter is extremely hard to read. I had to keep clicking on the refresh button until I could find one I could read. Is this the problem you are having?

    Anyway let me know how you get on and if you need further help with it.

    sankappa

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  867. Hi neasod,

    here is the link to the documentary:

    http://www.fileserve.com/file/uUZEpPf/In

    When reaching the linked page, scroll down till you see “free user” them click on the “Slower Download” button. It takes around 10 mins to download. I’m assuming you haven’t tried this link already.

    An important point to note regarding this documentary, is that Stephen and Martine Batchelor have lent their support to the claims of abuse, and also give there analyses on how they believe this abuse was able to occur, in the extended interviews that are also available with this download. I draw your attention to this, as the Batchelors have impeccable records, and are extremely well regarded in the Buddhist community as practitioners and scholars of long-standing. They would not have lent their support to this lightly, without careful consideration.

    The young lady, Mimi in this documentary is also Janine in the “Behind The Thangkas” document above. We know this, as her father is the Air France pilot, that contributed to “BTT” and was interviewed for “In the Name of Enlightenment.”

    Regards,
    sankappa

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  868. BellaB,
    SR never struck me as a lazy, or under educated person. Or an alcoholic or anything like that. I found him very inspiring. I didnt like how he spoke to some people though. A few comments of his annoyed me, but nothing alarming.I never looked at him as a guru though,so I just saw him as a human being that had a certain tradition and understanding of meditation and of life. In other words, ordinarily imperfect. I cant imagine what the above article must be like for someone who really feels a connection with him.

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  869. Thank you for the lengthy replies.
    I guess the jury is out. The lawsuit that was settled out of court? That rings a few alarm bells for me.I am so startled by its very existence that I just dont know what to think. I dont want to jump on any bandwagons of any kind, but this is SERIOUS stuff. He needs to address these accusations. I will not pay a penny more to Dzogchen Beara, eventhough I love the place, until this has been dealt with. My conscience simply could not permit it. If he is innocent, then it is unfair that he should be oblidged to defend himself but he has to. He has a position of power, of reverence, alot of people trust him implicitly. He must show that he is entitled to peoples trust.
    It is unfair that the Rigpa organisation and Sogyal Rimpoche will have a black cloud overhanging if there is no basis for these claims, or if they are exagerations or heresay or mere hysterics. However, it is an organisation that deals with a spiritual doctrine and donations of money.-any relationship between those two things must be guarded by responsible people with the correct motivation and behaviour. They must be impeccably ethical. Anything less is just too slippery a slope. Too much power is in the balance.
    I will write to a few Rigpa and ex- Rigpa and Rigpa-lite friends and see what they say.
    I cant seem to download this documentary. Does anyone have another link to it?

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  870. Off topic removed, and you know the reason why. Consider this a gentle warning.

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  871. neasod, I have read a lot of her messages – and noticed early on dishonesty in them.

    If you know SR, do you think he is
    – alcoholic
    – cigar smoker
    – rapist (by Victoria Barlow = Nicky Skye in American Buddha)
    – bully with intention of harming people mentally?
    – financial abuser (for what? using prostitutes, buying porn, alcohol, cigars…? what is he using the money for? helping monasteries in the East?)
    – narcissist? psychopath?
    – has no realization, charlatan, inauthentic
    – SR can’t even read: no Tibetan, no English
    – Sr hasn’t written Tibetan Book of Living and Dying
    – Rigpa people are plants, zombies and so forth

    I and others long before me have tried to communicate another view of SR, but her mind is set. She doesn’t listen or take into account any corrections, even if people would write straight quotes from books that contradicts her slander. She claims to know it all, yet reveals NOTHING.

    I have come to think that some people have told her early on about SR and how SR has been sexually active when he was under 30 years in the 70’s (like nobody else was active at the time). Victoria Barlow has claimed that SR has raped her. She has written extensively how she was sexually abused in her childhood and that was ‘supervised’ by her own mother! Victoria Barlow has also claimed Sakya Trizin abused her. Of course she has lost all sense of right and wrong, lost all trust to everybody, if those events are true in the first place.

    MF knew SR in 1973, quite soon after he had arrived to Europe in the first place. She was friendly enough to introduce Dominique Side to him, who has remained as his student. MF left SR and found Namkhai Norbu, whom she seems to respect. It’s so contradictory, since she claims that SR has no authority to teach Dzogchen, but Namkhai Norbu supports SR and has said he is qualified to teach. SR and NN are friends, which MF denies.

    Afterwards MF has heard some rumors about SR (rapes and assaults, most likely from Barlow) and according to her she felt bad that she had introduced people to SR. In 1994-95 there was the legal case which never went to court, but after that I guess she has fought with Victoria Barlow to bring SR down. She has demanded people to offer herself inclusive interviews, collected materials, that she has kept in her dossier for who knows how long. She has propagated her dossier and upcoming book for over 10 years now. At the same time she offered her contact information for anyone who has anything bad to say about SR, no matter how trivial. I think there hasn’t been a lot of activity, since the book doesn’t show up.

    Years and years of bad talk in the forums.

    I have met only people whom SR has helped and it’s hard to imagine man who recognizes suffering, can identify and talk about it, would be so absolutely blind to his own actions.

    I have a friend in Rigpa, who has spent months working in LL for many years. He knows those people in the above Blog and says they are married, have boyfriends and children – and they do not belong to a harem. I trust that man more than anybody in the World, because he is a really good person with moral backbone I have never seen in anybody.

    I met a few liars when I was young. It made me open my eyes to the reality. After that I wouldn’t want to close my eyes. If I notice somebody lying to me in real life, it’s a big deal to me. I just don’t forget about it: it’s so insulting to me. If somebody gets caught lying to me it’s really hard for me to forgive. If somebody is able to lie in small things, they are able to lie in big things. One can forgive white lies to some extent, if there are understandable circumstances. Overall slander in the internet is no small thing.

    If I saw abuse, I wouldn’t be able to look away. I haven’t seen anything and neither has my friend, who is closer to SR and the surrounding people than most of us here.

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  872. I have nothing personally against Mary Finnigan. In fact, as I’ve said before, we likely share far more views than we disagree on.

    Unfortunately, some of her journalism contains factual errors, rumors presented as fact, and–what I dislike the most–persistent, sarcastic swipes at HHDL. I don’t understand why she would choose to go this route, but that has been her choice.

    I think Mary is a very passionate woman who quite purposely uses hyperbole, exaggeration and plain old untruths in her writing, for splash value. Why she needs splash value, I don’t know. What the goal is, I don’t know. Maybe it’s just the creative writer in her.

    She’s been after Sogyal Rinpoche since the 1990s, so I supposed at this point she may be taking an anything-goes approach. She posted blistering accusations against removed, but now seems not to stand by them, having in fact promoted him in a recent Guardian article as an affordable teacher.

    My take on that: again with the passion. Like any woman hearing of abuse she probably sympathized wholeheartedly, and then, as another colleague later described, found out the accusations weren’t what they seemed to be. Always easier to dig a hole than get back out of it.

    My problem is that *any* attempt to speak up and say that just *maybe* our democracies’ laws on innocence mean something, is met with the pat response, “You’re-a-paid-Rigpa-spin-doctor-who-hates-women-and-loves-abuse!”

    What makes these people tick? Your guess is as good as mine.

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  873. May I ask BellaB, why you doubt Mary Finnegan? Her motivation? Her sanity? I dont know her or anything about this, so am curious to know why she seems to be a dubious source for you?

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  874. I’m curious. If I accuse Sogyal Rinpoche, his name will not be removed. If mention someone else’s accusation against HHST, his name will be removed.

    Both are free men, living as citizens with full rights, and neither facing any criminal charges.

    Given that no criminal charges are pending, on what basis does Dialogue Ireland act as judge and jury of innocent men?

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  875. “You are nothing but a deep devotee, so you can`t.”

    I think I’m more than just a deep devotee. :) I have been really trying to figure out the stuff. There are people who can just ignore, so I’m not the worst case from your point of view.

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  876. BellaB, what I see is that one Lama can be useful and helpful for a lot of people what is based on their reception and willingness. On the other hand he can be dangerous, abusive and destructive to other ones, like Nydahl and Trinley Dorje were for me.

    All Yogis have a psychopathic or soziopathic personality because of their specific altered state of mind. Magnetism and great charming on one hand, on the other “demonic” behavier.

    Researches found a perpetual stimulation of the so called “remuneration-system” in their brains. The so called enlightened people have got that phenomenon in common with psychopaths.That was found through functional magnatic resonance imaging.

    On the other hand they have dissociacions in mind which make them behave freakishly.The devotees call it spontanous behavier, but there is nothing to admire at.

    Because I know thoses facts it is easy for me to take the accusations according Sogyal for serious. You are nothing but a deep devotee, so you can`t.

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  877. Marte-Micaela Riepe,

    could you please repeat your involvement with Rigpa, because I have forgotten.

    How do you take the accusations in so willingly? Because you were with some other lama, even though people spoke about him? Now you must believe the bad talk about other lamas? Could you also consider, even though you have suffered, that not all the bad talk is necessarily accurate?

    How do you explain yourself the multitude of evil talk certain journalist has produced in many levels of SR? She has been corrected many times over a decade now, but in vain. She continues and continues.

    There is a communication block – and some people live in different universes, by will. There is a fight, but about what, fundamentally?

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  878. “So you can explain Sheila`s and Bellab`s obsession to deny any results of investigations and researches. ”

    Marte, what investigations? I haven’t denied anything, although others here have vigorously denied the accusations against removed, with no more reason than simply “because it couldn’t possibly be true!”

    Here’s what I’m really denying.

    1. People can be slandered without proof online, and we’re all supposed to take it as fact

    2. People who question the slander are automatically wrong

    Like

  879. Removed off-topic: There is a thread on the forum for discussing this

    Like

  880. Neasod,

    I repeat this comment given in the context of the “Kalu-Ringpoche”- confessions:

    yours is similar to the typical response of a dysfunctional family member who vilifies the sibling that starts to get help and tell the truth about the family sickness, or the “patriot” that beats up on the person who blows the whistle on something unethical in the power structure.

    “usually this energy is born out of intense defensive reaction to your own traumas/emotional pain!!!”

    So you can explain Sheila`s and Bellab`s obsession to deny any results of investigations and researches. They cannot reflect their own motivations, which are so obvisious to me. But this should be a discussion-and not a psychotherapie-forum, so I don`t want to go in that discussion. It should just help to reflect it.

    Like

  881. I don’t know if the Thanka Blog is so outrageous on purpose (and also anonymous because of it) to cause a shock reaction in people.

    The critics have tried to talk about abuse for a long time, but there hasn’t been a growing interest. I don’t know if the Blog is done in an extreme way to really have an effect. Many of those things do not stand the reality check.

    The well known agenda of MF has been to get SR out of circulation as a teacher. Certain amount of force has to be used to do that. Gossip is not the way, even though it will stir strong emotions in people.

    Just calm down and check the things in real life.

    Like

  882. Off-topic removed

    Like

  883. Off-topic removed

    Like

  884. ps. I have been faced with these issues for 8-9 years and have been asking questions. I didn’t take Finnigan’s posts at face value.

    The Thanka Blog is outrageous, please look for answers in real life.

    I also feel bad for abused people, I have known and still know women who have suffered in their lives. I have myself experienced unpleasant things when I was young… – but not in Rigpa. Just look and investigate yourself – carefully.

    Like

  885. neasod, for an investigation to happen, someone has to make a complaint to the police.

    Saying someone appears to have made untrue statements is not a condemnation of the person, merely of what they said. They might be a perfectly nice person. However, if they make up horrible lies about HH Sakya Trizin, it should be pointed out that as best we can tell, those statements were untrue.

    We don’t have to dislike any particular person to examine the validity of their statements, especially if those statements are hurting other people.

    Like

  886. neasod,

    just take a calm breath and continue to read all the links until you will see the true colors of the investigation on both sides. Then make up your mind. Also, talk to real Rigpa people and don’t get into depression with internet gossip.

    Like

  887. I would have said: they ARE an item, if I was thinking they still have a relationship.

    I have visited Rigpa every year. I have seen these people together in the past. I saw the guy bringing his new woman and his new born baby to be blessed by SR a few years ago. Were you there on that retreat? I was and saw it.

    Why do you have to argue if I have been in Rigpa or not? My best friend knows people from the inner circle and I’m in contact with him when ever I want to ask questions about certain people or events. He has spend moths every year in LL for the past 10 years. He doesn’t want to spend his life time with stupid gossip sites, since he knows those people personally and have no doubts about SR’s good motivation.

    “I never met a Rigpa student who didn’t have doubts about Sogyal’s ethics, but for you.” What do you mean by this?

    Like

  888. I am so shocked at this article and the video confessions of Kalu Rimpoche that I have just heard about today, after nearly six years of practice. I have been on many retreats to Dzogchen Beara and considered myself to be hugley inspired by Sogyal Rimpoche. I have no idea about the back stories, politics or motivations behind all this but I find it even more troubling that these accusations are being met with such crazed opposition. If these allegations are false, or motivated by anything other than justice, an investigation needs to happen with precision and concern. Not this amateur mud wrestling and condemnation of the alleged victims. Sogyal should be innocent until proven guilty, and these allegations need to be taken very very seriously. The above comments on the whole does not give the impression of a calm, ordered analysis of the accusations.

    Like

  889. Bellab you said: ” Does anyone from Rigpa remember a certain ‘harem woman’ and her boyfriend? They were exactly like this couple:

    So much for the dark chambers… I must be living in another universe since I remember them exactly like this.

    bellaB, on January 3, 2012 at 8:41 am said:

    Ok, I didn’t know he belongs to Scientology. But the couple in question was always seen together, dancing together and they looked happy and were really an item. They even look a little like those actors in the movie.”

    then in response to my post:

    I also said they WERE an item (past).

    Bellab, your original post is about the past, it doesn’t say they split up. Methinks you know sfa. I never met a Rigpa student who didn’t have doubts about Sogyal’s ethics, but for you.

    Like

  890. Something from here:

    http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan/browse_frm/thread/b663ca14fe6c0b91/31711c6cbdf8fd26?lnk=gst&q=sogyal+mary#31711c6cbdf8fd26

    “I know Sogyal from 1973 and can also draw on my personal experience. In other threads I have acknowledged his contribution to the development of Tibetan dharama in the west. It is clear that Sogyal is effective as a conduit and I do not doubt him in this respect.
    Mary ”

    Sometime later she called him fat, lazy, alcohol drinker, cigar smoker… Why??

    Like

  891. Marte-Micaele, the thing you posted was not written by me.

    I only post under Sheila, Sile or occasionally Saula(a)n when the first two are taken.

    Like

  892. “Sheila, since you are so good in finding information, did you ever come across this person’s response from 1 year back (1997)?
    “About a year ago I posted on this newsgroup a response to many of Mary’s claims about Sogyal Rinpoche. I tried really hard to cite examples that were verifiable for anyone (e.g. quoting published sources) so that people could judge for themselves whether to believe Mary or not.””

    I hadn’t seen this one yet, BellaB – will read!

    Like

  893. From Nov 15 1998: Michale talking with Mary about how Mary claimed to have reliable sources, at least two – and how Michael points out that it’s not the case.

    “It was there
    > that I learned to present my sources, so that editors could see at a
    > glance where the material had come from. No World Service story goes out
    > without at least two sources. This is a discipline I have maintained
    > ever since.
    > > To what length are you willing to go to substantiate what you
    > >have been told?
    > See above

    Mary, You didn’t seem to check two sources on your postings about the
    Richard Gere and gerbil story…I’m just trying to point out your own
    inconsistencies that lead me to take what you say with a grain of
    salt…you repeatedly posted on this newsgroup how you had reliable
    sources to verify this as true…then when many were incredulous this
    was your “source” (quoted from Deja News):> Dates back from my time as a reporter. LA correspondent did some
    > checking. Helpless laughter in the office, but we did not use the story.
    > I wish I had never jumped in. Deserve the flak this time.
    > Vale.
    > mary

    This hardly seems like one let alone two verified sources…Michael”

    Richard Gere and gerbil -story:
    http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/celebrities/a/richard_gere.htm

    Like

  894. “I have repteaed several times that I am
    not at ease with the role of smutfinder…and that I do not adopt this
    attitude towards my work.
    Mary”

    Like

  895. “investigative journalist, as well as you or Sheila or any other devotee can stop the scientific researches and journalistic investigations according to tantric-tibetan Lamaism.”

    Investigative? Are you joking?

    She collects complaints from some random people. You can always find complaints regarding any Tib lama. Nobody likes everybody.
    She ignores completely the positive responses.

    That is NO WAY near any scientific study. It’s GOSSIP journalism, the cheapest kind.

    My University teacher who gave a class on methodology of quantitative research told on one of his lecture:

    “I read on a newspaper that most people prefer to live in the city center (certain area) rather than in some other areas. I decided to call the journalist and ask how did he come to the conclusion. The journalist responded that he had gone to the liked area on one day and had seen 10 people on the yard (8 women, 2 men rushing by) from whom he asked if they liked living there. Most of them had responded: yes. So there was his research.”

    My teacher concluded his speech:

    “Just another journalist acting as God!”

    I myself would agree with this person:
    “Mary F. is basically a gossip columnist of tabloid quality posturing as
    one who would perform the service of protecting newbies from
    unscrupulous teachers.

    But who will protect the naïve from the likes of Mary ?”

    Like

  896. “We are not the first generation of Buddhists losing our nerve with her.”

    Yes, for sure, bellab, and the other generation also was not able to stop her effort as a well known investigative journalist, as well as you or Sheila or any other devotee can stop the scientific researches and journalistic investigations according to tantric-tibetan Lamaism.

    Three very interesting comments, given to the confessions of the young “Kalu Ringpoches”, the first appears to be Sheila`s style:

    “I forgot to add, having watched the video, Kalu seems very bogged down with HIS issues, pain etc. I mean the Dalai Lama, the 17th Karmapa have had FAR MORE serious issues than this guy, but you don’t see them making such a video like this? They didn’t go off the rails and become drug addicts did they? If he wanted to see justice then he could have gone down a much more formal and just route than posting such a blog video without even naming the ALLEGED attackers. Very unjust of him.”

    atomxgirl vor 4 Wochen

    “@atomxgirl this is a completely insensitive and inappropriate comment. why are you angry and judgmental toward a young man who is very vulnerably and frankly sharing his trauma. i can’t even believe you would minimize it and compare him to others in the way you are – as if it is a sign of his lack of spiritual development that he is not maintaining silence, repressing his emotions and keeping it “all in the family” of a corrupt institution.”

    JAYDUBYAH29 vor 4 Wochen

    @atomxgirl yours is similar to the typical response of a dysfunctional family member who vilifies the sibling that starts to get help and tell the truth about the family sickness, or the “patriot” that beats up on the person who blows the whistle on something unethical in the power structure. usually this energy is born out of intense defensive reaction to your own traumas/emotional pain.

    JAYDUBYAH29 vor 4 Wochen

    http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=z5Ka3bEN1rs

    Like

  897. Sheila, since you are so good in finding information, did you ever come across this person’s response from 1 year back (1997)?

    “About a year ago I posted on this newsgroup a response to many of Mary’s claims about Sogyal Rinpoche. I tried really hard to cite examples that were verifiable for anyone (e.g. quoting published sources) so that people could judge for themselves whether to believe Mary or not.”

    Like

  898. Thank you Sheila for your hint about alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan

    I read it a bit and first discussion I came across was criticism against Mary Finnigan. We are not the first generation of Buddhists losing our nerve with her, I guess. Maybe she lives on this type of ‘spiritual food’! I absolutely wish not to spend too many hours of my life with her problems anymore. I wish anyone who ever visited Rigpa, would be directly given this link, so they can stop worrying soon enough, if they begin in the first place.

    http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan/browse_thread/thread/ff28e45267326eb4/355076714b8fd07e?lnk=gst&q=sogyal#355076714b8fd07e

    May 6 1998

    About a year ago I posted on this newsgroup a response to many of Mary’s claims about Sogyal Rinpoche. I tried really hard to cite examples that were verifiable for anyone (e.g. quoting published sources) so that people could judge for themselves whether to believe Mary or not.

    Specifically, I believe I refuted Mary’s claims that Sogyal Rinpoche did not write his book, that he did not properly credit Andrew Harvey or Patrick Gaffney. Furthermore I tried to address Mary’s belief that
    Rinpoche only started teaching on Death and Dying after meeting
    Christine Longaker, by quoting Christine where she directly contradicts Mary’s version of events. At that time, I naively believed that Mary was interested in dialog. Mary merely brushed me off as a devotee instead of conceding that her claims were clearly contradicted by facts which were independently verifiable by anyone reading netnews. Mary will probably be dismayed to know that I received an avalanche of email for being brave enough to speak up to her.

    There in lies the heart of a problem. The way Mary presents herself is
    much like a bully. By calling people names like “Dharmatose” she
    discourages any possibility for real dialog.

    For example, I have a close friend who read Mary’s posts and got quite outraged by the falsity of Mary’s claims. She wanted to respond but feels that the tone of Mary’s posts make it impossible for her to do so.

    My friend has suffered abuse during childhood. She still has fear as an adult that is a result of that time. Only because Mary makes it an
    issue, I mention that my friend is relatively young and considered by
    most men, extremely attractive. In the past two years she has received personal teachings from Sogyal Rinpoche which she feels have really “helped her to transform her habitual tendencies to become fearful in certain kinds of situations.” She says it was only possible because of the atmosphere of complete trust.

    Mary talks about events she was never present for, or claims intimate
    knowledge of things that she doesn’t explain. She makes many claims that are not true.

    Recently, she claimed “most of his early disciples jumped ship.” That
    isn’t my perception, and I have been Rinpoche’s student for many years. Did she take a poll? Did she compare how many of his disciples left versus stayed and compared that result to other lamas who have been teaching for so long? She claims to have done research… What is more interesting is how many of his oldest students have stayed with him, or in Dharma and still consider him a great master.

    Lama Tsering Everest, a female western Lama, who is also on the Mary Finnegan list of approved, ethical, transmitters of the dharma ( at least we agree about some things) has told the story many times of how Sogyal Rinpoche was the Lama that first guided her into Tibetan Buddhism. How grateful she is for the kindness he had and how it enabled her to find her root Lama. She claims to have deep devotion and respect for him and his ability to embody the teachings. She also will be teaching at his center in S.F. this summer. Anyone can go to a talk of Lama Tsering Everest and ask her about Sogyal Rinpoche and so we are not forced to take my word for it or the word of unnamed corroborating sources. Should I believe Lama Tsering Everest or Mary?

    Mary says:

    >It is possible,
    >of course, that Sogyal has done this for some of his students too,
    >although I find it hard to believe from a base-path-fruit perspective
    >that the experiential quality comes anywhere near Trungpa, Kalu, Norbu levels.

    I think that this is pretty easy for anyone wishing to judge for themselves to do so without Mary’s help. On one hand how can any of us know what anyone else’s realization is? Many times, Mary represents herself as to be able to know other practitioner’s realization. Most of us, while not believing that we can ultimately judge anyone’s realization also playfully understand that each of us has some intuition or feeling about where different teachers are at.

    Several of Sogyal Rinpoche’s older students teach publicly. Go hear
    Christine Longaker. Read her book. It seems like she has benefited quite a lot from the teachings. Even Mary seems to like Christine. Christine claims to owe her understanding and realization of the Dharma to Sogyal Rinpoche.

    Ian Maxwell gives Dharma talks. He completed a three year retreat and has studied with many lamas. He was one of Sogyal Rinpoche’s earliest students. Hundreds of people show up for his talks, I presume because they really find them beneficial. Go hear Ian speak, talk to him, decide for yourself if you think he has any special insight in Buddhadharma.

    Patrick Gaffney edited Rinpoche’s book. He is probably Sogyal Rinpoche’s closest disciple and one of his very first. He also gives Dharma talks from time to time. When Penor Rinpoche gave empowerments, he invited Patrick to have a seat with the other Lamas receiving the empowerment! Not only does Penor Rinpoche think Patrick is exceptional but I have heard the same opinion voiced by several of my other teachers.

    Mary says:

    >And judging by reports from Sogyal’s recent Easter retreat, the
    >atmosphere at his teachings is still tense and rather miserable and he still bullies his students seomthing rotten.

    I’m sure Mary wasn’t there. This phrase is so manipulative and
    misleading, as she implies that for years Rinpoche’s teachings have
    been tense and miserable. I have spoken with people who use very different language to describe the Easter retreat. It is hard to believe that several thousand people return year after year to attend teachings in an atmosphere of misery and tension that is only interrupted by sessions of bullying.

    Mary keeps discussing Sogyal Rinpoche’s training and realization as if she followed him around since birth.

    How could she possibly know what it was like for young Tulku Sogyal when he was living with Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro? I have heard stories from H.H. Sakya Trizin, and Nyushul Khenpo Rinpoche which paint a different picture. Don’t ask Mary, ask them.

    Personally, I have been with Sogyal Rinpoche on many occasions when he received days of private instruction from Dodrupchen Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, and Nyushul Khenpo Rinpoche. Maybe Mary isn’t aware of the fact that Sogyal Rinpoche spends a lot of his time around his masters, receiving instruction.

    I have for many years, supported a monk who is studying to be a Khenpo. Every year the Nyingma and ordained Sangha get together for a prayer festival. In 1994, after the lawsuit was filed, the monk was present at this gathering headed by H.H. Penor Rinpoche. According to my monk friend, Penor Rinpoche praised the efforts of Sogyal Rinpoche, all the work he has done in the Dharma, and how it was really important all of us support Sogyal Rinpoche now. Should I believe Penor Rinpoche, or Mary? (For honesty in advertising’s sake, I admit I have received initiations and teaching from Penor Rinpoche)

    Mary tries to present her views as unbiased research. But anyone who spends a little time looking into the basis of many of her claims can find evidence that directly contradicts her “facts.” If she were really an unbiased researcher, the introduction of new evidence would cause some modification of her views or at least and acknowledgement of how reasonable people might come to different conclusions. Instead she responds, as she did to me, with
    accusations of devotion (guilty) and spin control. She only wants to
    collect stories of how horrible Rinpoche is, that seems to be more like a hatchet job than research. And because of the fact Mary claims things which are verifiably untrue just to make her point, it makes me suspicious of all her other claims.

    It would be an interesting discussion to find out why students of Sogyal Rinpoche have stayed the course despite rumors and accusations. It would be nice to hear the stories of people who feel that Sogyal Rinpoche really helped them and why. The environment here at A.R.B.T. makes that an unlikely event, though I have once again tried to offer another view. In fact, you don’t have to take my word for it, ask any of the people I have mentioned in this
    post.

    And please look up my post from a year ago on DejaNews and see if the thread sounds like I was a “devotee” engaging in “spin control” or presenting information allowing anyone to come to their own conclusion.

    Finally, there has been a lot of discussion about authenticity. Patrul
    Rinpoche gave a lot of instructions on how to evaluate a teacher in
    Words of My Perfect Teacher. I don’t believe that Patrul Rinpoche suggested this because he thought that such evaluations were absolute and we should proclaim our findings of authenticity all over net news. Instead I believe that the point was that as a practitioner progresses along the path they can cause considerable harm to themselves if they cannot maintain a pure view of the teacher after receiving certain teachings or empowerments. So I think it’s great that we share our insights and wisdom into how one can tell whether a teacher is qualified. But I think that when we take our perception so seriously that we believe anyone who doesn’t see it the same way is a fool or worse, we lose sight of one of the basic reasons for Buddhist practice. I think publishing lists of qualified/unqualified teachers and belittling those who disagree is an example of such folly.

    Diatribe finished! Sorry it was so long… At least modems are faster
    and disk drives are bigger. :)

    All the best,

    pema dorje

    p.s. (from last year)
    Just so my trip is clear. I have studied with Sogyal Rinpoche for 14
    years. He is my refuge lama. It was through his great kindnes and skill as a meditation master that I was able to connect with my root lama, Kyabje Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche. That is just the way I …

    Mary’s – who haven’t seen SR for decades – kind response:

    May 7 1998

    And it seems that Pema Dorje (whoever he/she is) does not know much about Sogyal either. I will not refute her enormous outpouring of
    apologia on his behalf — except to quote the ancient aphorism…methinks he/she doth protest too much..and also to suggest that if Sogyal’s students are afraid of challenging me on arbt…IMO that does not say a lot for Sogyal. Also I invite Pema Dorje to visit me and inspect my files. Listen to my tapes. Even talk to my contacts. Finally note spelling of my surname..FinnIgan.
    Mary

    Like

  899. Sorry, that last para was badly worded–I had not heard of Mary Finnigan prior to the Chinese forum post. I believe it was “Lama Sex Abuse Claims” they linked to, but I’d have to check to be sure.

    Like

  900. Vera,

    These issues (lawsuits, Victoria Barlow, etc.) appear to have been discussed on public forums since the early 1990s. All statements to which I refer are public, and turn up very quickly in a Google search, or did for me.

    The main forum, back in “the day,” seems to have been the newsgroup called alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan. It is very searchable, and you can read back through the history of this and other issues.

    I don’t know if anything sinister is going on, although sometimes I do suspect that.

    I had not heard of Mary Finnigan, though had heard rumblings about Sogyal Rinpoche from the Chinese, who include him in their list of “Tibetans to excoriate,” along with HHDL, etc. I first heard of Dialogue Ireland on a Chinese discussion forum.

    Hope this clarifies.

    Like

  901. “Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!”

    DI, I try to continue and that is announed. It is not true! I would never repeat something.

    I don’t know what is happening there. Send me your comment to diwordpress@yahoo.co.uk and I will try to post it for you.

    Here is Marte-Micaela Riepe’s comment:

    This is also a reply to Agony Aunt:

    In the catholic church and not only there we face an unsetteled and disturbing sexuality of clergy members. That has a long history with millions and millions victims and is based on a specific sexual moral in christian institutions. In western societies exists a widely spread knowledge about it and today the tantric.tibetan Lamaism is subject of those researching methods, wether you like it or not.
    I just introduced the view of the survivers, which should be the leading opinion.
    To complete the text above:

    8.Feminist views of independence are only held by domineering, American women,

    9.Sexual roles are dualistic – Buddhist rhetoric encourages “non-dualistic” thinking amongst the sexes to combat gender stereotypes, which many therefore loosen a student’s attachments the need for worldly, ego-driven, personal and material desires,

    10.If a rape victim wants to speak out in public about the incidence, he or she has not learned to develop a deep sense of compassion for herself or the perpetrator,

    11.Having sex with a Tibetan Buddhist clergy member is an esteemed honor and will create good karma for the student,

    12.The concept of Tantra and Tantric sex are often confusing to students especially with regard to sexual practices and the spiritual teacher,

    13.Dehumanizing language evokes conditioned fear-type responses in a lay practitioners, terms such as wrathful deity, demons, devils, vampires, warrior’s path, and energy sucker” are commonly used to instill “the wrath of Buddha” in the victim,

    14.Examination of sexual and power abuses by Tibetan Buddhist clergy will do real damage to the reputation of authentic and ethically based Tibetan Buddhist teachers.

    Should any of these aforementioned reasons serve to dilute a rape victim’s pain or experience?

    http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2007/05/360282.shtml

    Like

  902. “analysis of the problems with sexual abuse and rape in tantric-tibetan Lamaism by survivors”

    Lets sort this out Marte, None of these ideas are taught in Tibetan scripture, any more than it is taught in Catholic literature that allowing a priest to bugger you is a service to God. The ideas you list are perversions of extant social and religious ideas used by sexual abusers to facilitate abuse. The religion itself is not to blame for this. Human weakness and manipulativeness are. You give the appearance of wanting to portray Tibetan religion as evil:No, perversion of religious principles and manipulation via social mores to justify ones abusive behavior are evil

    Like

  903. “Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!”

    DI, I try to continue and that is announed. It is not true! I would never repeat something.

    Please help!

    Like

  904. I hear cuckoos

    Like

  905. Back to “Behind the Thangkas”

    I found a sqeezed analysis of the problems with sexual abuse and rape in tantric-tibetan Lamaism by survivors:

    American Survivors of Tibetan Buddhist Clergy Abuse Speak Out Several rape victims have reported that religious double speak and twisting of dogma is often pervasive amongst Buddhist clergy members who want to cover up deviant sexual behavior:

    1. Rape is a female problem brought on by its victims especially by all of those sexually aggressive American women,

    2. By keeping quiet about his or her incident, a rape victim can learn to be a better Buddhist and join in the human struggle to end all suffering for “sentient beings,

    3.A Rinpoche and/or Lama’s spiritual energy or chi power can protect students from the HIV virus,

    4.A student will never reach enlightenment if he/she speaks out about the rape,

    5.Students who want to speak out about sex abuses will create curses and bad karma for many lifetimes to come, will never be saved and remain in a “hell realm” full of demons and devils,

    6.Traditional Tibetan culture is very superstitious and holds patriarchal views that seem old fashioned and backwards to Western women – rape victims have been told to just be compassionate about these differences of opinion,

    continue

    Like

  906. Anonymous, JB, corboy, and so forth: “Bella-clearly, two orientals together on a platform is an indication of their undying support for one another”

    I didn’t say that. Obviously ST + SR don’t hate each other. Dalai Lama didn’t necessarily like Mao, but what he could do? The whole nation was under a threat. There are no circumstances ST has to meet with SR – for any reason. He just has happened to visit Lerab Ling and taught there.

    Like

  907. Vera,

    “Secondly, is Bella suggesting that life in Rigpa is like being part of an American musical? I have it on good authroity that the couple in question split up many years ago, and she has been Sogyal’s for a long time. Also, from all I have read from Bella’s posts it is definitely that of an out of touch outsider.”

    Since you also recognize the couple from the musical, it’s not that far fetched. No, Buddhism is not about musicals. I just saw the piece by accident when I was checking out music in youtube and thought: this couple reminds me of them. Since you know the couple in question: I also said they WERE an item (past). They split up a few years ago. I know it. It was also easy to see, since he was there with her ever since I began visiting Rigpa, but at some point, a few years ago, no longer. The last time I saw the guy was when he came with his new girlfriend/wife to have his baby blessed by SR.

    Said woman doesn’t live in LL, I was told by an “insider”. Therefore she would hardly have time for orgies.

    I – and I don’t think you neither – have any evidence she has ever been anything more than a close friend with SR. She has been Sogyal’s student for a long time.

    Like

  908. Sheila, you write about Mary Finnigan who you are claiming wrote the dossier, saying:
    “I have to say that this author has a simply appalling record of sporadic disconnectivity, lol, from “crashed modems, “stolen modems” and black-hearted internet cafe owners in the ’90s to this latest undefined issue in 2012.”
    I am confused, you claim to have only come to this case in Nov and that you knew nothing of Mary F…personally, am finding this comment a bit sinister, a bit stalky, sounds like you have followed her since the 90’s. Please clarify.

    Secondly, is Bella suggesting that life in Rigpa is like being part of an American musical? I have it on good authroity that the couple in question split up many years ago, and she has been Sogyal’s for a long time. Also, from all I have read from Bella’s posts it is definitely that of an out of touch outsider.

    Like

  909. Like

  910. Nice video Bella-clearly, two orientals together on a platform is an indication of their undying support for one another

    Like

  911. Her vacance? The author is not available-no names mentioned nobody in bed with anyone-only more conspiracy theories agains Sogyals bete noire Fishing or what?

    Like

  912. DI, why are you leaping to take the blame – I have absolutely no doubt Mary brought up internet issues!

    But you’ve said you have no connection to her – I’m assuming your familiarity with her vacance indicates that position has changed?

    Like

  913. I have to say that this author has a simply appalling record of sporadic disconnectivity, lol, from “crashed modems, “stolen modems” and black-hearted internet cafe owners in the ’90s to this latest undefined issue in 2012.

    DI Moderation: Do you get a thrill out of calling us liars? If you want to know the author/s are on holiday/vacance/vacation. They will address your question though it is not of great relevance. IF THEY DO NOT WE WILL REMOVE THAT SECTION. Adolf Hitler committed suicide in 1948. Right?
    If we show it happened in the wrong year that shows he did not murder 6m Jews?

    Like

  914. Here’s for you some ST + SR:

    Like

  915. BTW-I cant recall anyone saying you are “too focused” Delusions of grandeur?

    Like

  916. Hence the picture. As for the previous post, youre waffling girl. Get to the point. What are you chattering about-anything of relevance? Still going on about Sogyal when he was a zygote, as if it has any bearing whatsoever.Look

    dialogueireland, on January 3, 2012 at 7:35 pm said:
    DI Moderation: The author/s are unavailable for comment at present as they have limited access to the internet and their records. But the issue of when SR left Tibet will be addressed after their return.WILL be

    So your petty little irrelevant argument WILL be addressed. Until then,cant you shut up about it sicne you refuse to accept anyone elses P of V on the issue

    Like

  917. Anon, because you said HH Sakya Trizin was only respecting the venue and it had nothing to do with the venue owner – when in fact HH Sakya Trizin shows, and has always shown, immense respect to fellow teacher Sogyal Rinpoche.

    Like

  918. “your tendency to act disingenuously and to wriggle out of things by changing the subject”

    I love how I’m alternately accused of being too focused and too unfocused.

    DI, sounds good – although unless Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö airmailed the baby Sogyal to Dharamsala in ’49, their true exodus date is not in question. What is in question is why the author misrepresented it.

    I have to say that this author has a simply appalling record of sporadic disconnectivity, lol, from “crashed modems, “stolen modems” and black-hearted internet cafe owners in the ’90s to this latest undefined issue in 2012.

    Like

  919. “Probably because I didn’t post it as evidence of anyone’s purity.”

    Oh no? How did you put it, the picture demonstrates “H.H. Sakya Trizin’s obvious respect for Rigpa, and for Sogyal Rinpoche”,Either youve got a very bad memory or your telling little porkies to yourself deary

    Like

  920. BS

    Like

  921. “you have yet to respond the question concerning your posting of a picture of a picture of Sogyal with a prominent lama as evidence of his ‘purity””

    Probably because I didn’t post it as evidence of anyone’s purity.

    Like

  922. DI Moderation: The author/s are unavailable for comment at present as they have limited access to the internet and their records. But the issue of when SR left Tibet will be addressed after their return.

    Like

  923. Well Sheila-real time answer?

    Like

  924. I wonder if your mocking of the DI forum is driven by the recognition that there, the vacuous nature of your fanciful assertions is immediately discredited each time you post?

    For instance, you have yet to respond the question concerning your posting of a picture of a picture of Sogyal with a prominent lama as evidence of his ‘purity” alongside your post on Phayul which states that such photos are of no significance? Did you overlook this? It seems you have a habitual tendency to ‘overlook’ uncomfortable questions about the gaping holes in your ‘logical’ defences of Sogyal.(where ‘logical’ appears read, ‘personal opinion’)

    Again, what does where Sogyal was when he was 5 years old have to do with allegations of abuse against him in the 70s, 80s and 90s?

    There are numerous other questions I could pose, questions which you have failed to answer because they expose your hypocrisy. However, in the knowledge of your tendency to act disingenuously and to wriggle out of things by changing the subject or portraying yourself as several things other than what you actually are, I wont waste time

    Like

  925. If you are talking to me, Corboy is not known to me. I have never posted here under that name

    Like

  926. corboy, why are you so uncourageous as to pretend you’re not corboy??

    At least the Dialogue Ireland software isn’t so antiquated as to prevent real-time discussion, lol. Hence, the discussion has moved here instead of tRick Ross.

    Like

  927. No, Just a complete waste of time, especially when the person listening has already decided what is true and that any criticism is BS, lies etc

    Like

  928. “Red Herring gets 9,660,000 refs on Google.”

    But I’m not reading the whole google. I’m reading this page and seldom RR.

    “Mystykk concludes that this type of behaviour is widespread and not just confined to Sogyal-That means, while she has questions about circumstances, she beleives it happened”

    She believes based on what? She also believes VB’s story about SR raping her.

    “What is going on here?”
    Breech of fiduciary care
    “What did her boyfriend have to say about it?”
    ‘F***** bastard!’
    “What did she have to say about it?”
    ‘I had no wish for it to happen’

    I’m asking WHAT LED to the event, not what happened afterwards. (Afterwards they could have gone to the bar, taken the plane or whatever irrelevant.) That is also what Misstyk asks: what is the difference between those cases where a person in need of help ends up in SR’s bed – and what happens when a woman with her boyfriend at her side ends up there?

    I think the both cases are false accusations – and stupid – but I’d like to hear how the critics explain these things to themselves. Is it too distant and abstract to be answered?

    Like

  929. Those last two posts contain more logical responses than all of your thousands of posts combined. So lets not be pushy about providing background ‘evidence’ eh?

    Like

  930. Please remember that Mystykk concludes that this type of behaviour is widespread and not just confined to Sogyal-That means, while she has questions about circumstances, she beleives it happened

    Like

  931. “What is going on here?”
    Breech of fiduciary care
    “What did her boyfriend have to say about it?”
    ‘F***** bastard!’
    “What did she have to say about it?”
    ‘I had no wish for it to happen’

    “friends were already admirers or devotees from a distance, so a certain mind-set was already in place, that Sogyal was able to take advantage of”

    Anything else?

    Like

  932. Red Herring gets 9,660,000 refs on Google. Your are attempting the new tactic that Sheila invented with the two years old issue-If it isnt dealt with, everything is untrue=illogical pervasion.

    I dont see which question Mystykk poses that hasnt been answered-Please clarify and we ll take it from there

    Like

  933. Misstyk: “maybe your friends were already admirers or devotees from a distance, so a certain mind-set was already in place, that Sogyal was able to take advantage of”

    Anonymous and so forth: This is a pretty solid answer of how breaches of fiduciary care take place.

    I don’t expect this simplistic answer. I expect a comprehensive answer with details, how it happened in practice. No generalizations… they are worthless.

    Like

  934. Those are not my words, they are Misstyks, who belongs to the group of MF devotees.

    I’m waiting their group to answer the question posed to them by Misstyk. JB, Guest and so forth have frequently expressed that their friend’s girlfriend was seduced by SR. Now Misstyk asks explanation from “Indie” to the background story as I have asked JB too.

    JB, Guest and so fiorth is a regular commentator here – and he sounds like corboy who also regularly commands people back to row to discuss SR and nobody else. They have similar approach in both sites.

    I haven’t seen red herring used anywhere except in a few posts later here and in RR.

    I’m really looking forward to hear how Misstyks questions are answered. It’s a puzzle that somebody has to be able to solve. Some people there are quite inventive in story telling.

    Like

  935. As for ‘red herring’, I think youll find its a term in common usage in english language.Dictionaries tell us ‘Red herring is a figurative expression in which a clue or piece of information is or is intended to be misleading, or distracting from the actual question. For example, in mystery fiction, where the identity of a criminal is being sought, an innocent party may be purposefully cast in a guilty light by the author through the employment of deceptive clues, false emphasis, “loaded” words or other descriptive tricks of the trade. The reader’s suspicions are thus misdirected, allowing the true culprit to go (temporarily at least) undetected. A false protagonist is another example of a red herring’

    Your subsequent post answers itself in the final paragraph. Though it is not for me to answer,:

    “maybe your friends were already admirers or devotees from a distance, so a certain mind-set was already in place, that Sogyal was able to take advantage of”

    This is a pretty solid answer of how breaches of fiduciary care take place.

    Finally, beware of posting implicit confirmations that misconduct took place The post states:

    “The thing is, this sort of thing goes on A LOT, and not just with Sogyal”

    Like

  936. I’m also looking forward to hearing what will any of you answer to her question:

    Misstyk
    Date Added: 09/10/2010

    “Hi, Indie. I hope you don’t mind my asking, this is a serious inquiry. You took your friends to meet Sogyal. Two of your friends were in a committed relationship with each other. Somehow, Sogyal managed to seduce the woman. I’m trying to understand the psychology that allows such things to happen. I understand about how spiritual leaders are able to prey on emotionally needy members of their congregation. The majority of that type of case involves victims who were victimized as children. I understand, more or less, about Sogyal preying on the recently bereaved who come to him for guidance. It’s about the trauma of bereavement, though I still don’t understand that completely. But how does he manage to have a go at someone–accompanied by boyfriend, mind you–who is just dropping in for a visit?

    Please don’t get me wrong, my intent is not to blame women who fall for whatever his m.o. is. I’m trying to understand why someone, anyone, would have a casual fling with a fat, self-absorbed, by most accounts not very bright, stranger, and put what I assume to be a satisfactory relationship at risk? What is going on here? What did her boyfriend have to say about it? What did she have to say about it? One woman I’ve spoken with said that when she went to see Sogyal (decades ago) to discuss Buddhism, he raped her. I hope nothing so sinister was involved in the case you cite.

    The thing is, this sort of thing goes on A LOT, and not just with Sogyal. Personally, I don’t find these people attractive, and I find their come-ons to be a real turn-off. So I’m trying to understand the mind-set behind these encounters that are in a separate class from a) the devoted spiritual followers and b) the bereaved. I’m asking, because we have an opportunity to learn here, about the dynamic involved in this type of case. Having a better understanding of the dynamics in all these cases helps us be better advocates for victims. I’ve been through quite a learning curve already. Maybe there’s more to the story, for example, maybe your friends were already admirers or devotees from a distance, so a certain mind-set was already in place, that Sogyal was able to take advantage of. Any light you could shed on this would be helpful.” http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,60882,page=15

    No answer yet. I’d also like to know how the slander machinery is going to put these pieces together in their minds…

    Impossible task, it seems.

    Like

  937. BTW ‘Guest, corboy, JB, BJ, Aunt’?????

    You all use similar sayings “Red Herrings…” and so forth, so I figured out you are the same person – and maybe it’s easier in RR where one can nestle in with similar people under the same pseudonym – and call the shots.

    Like

  938. Opinions, flat denials, red herrings 4,658
    Evidence confirming Sogyals innocence-Nil

    BTW ‘Guest, corboy, JB, BJ, Aunt’?????

    Like

  939. Guest, corboy, JB, BJ, Aunt and so forth,

    You have no real proof that he is guilty and you don’t know these people at all, so…?

    Like

  940. Blah blah blah Results just in!

    Opinions, flat denials, red herrings 4,657

    Evidence confirming Sogyals innocence-Nil

    Like

  941. Ok, I didn’t know he belongs to Scientology. But the couple in question was always seen together, dancing together and they looked happy and were really an item. They even look a little like those actors in the movie.

    Like

  942. Posting a video starring a cult mouthpiece. Right.

    Like

  943. Does anyone from Rigpa remember a certain ‘harem woman’ and her boyfriend? They were exactly like this couple:

    So much for the dark chambers… I must be living in another universe since I remember them exactly like this.

    Like

  944. I think this whole thing is about several groups of people who are after something else–and it has nothing to do with sexual abuse against women.

    Those few genuinely concerned with abuse, who’ve jumped on the anti-Tibetan bandwagon, don’t realize or care who’s guilty of what, as long as there’s a forum for anti-abuse discussions.

    Like

  945. correction: I could push him away

    Like

  946. There was supposed to be many victims. When I was young, 18, I was on a holiday abroad – and a man entered my hotel room (uninvited) and tried to rape me: he pulled down his shorts. I could push me away, since I think he was a bit stoned.

    The police caught him later on and explained to me how the man had been crying in the prison because he was just about getting married. I was damn stupid, alone abroad and felt pity for him. Now that I’m older I would absolutely make sure that the man would be prosecuted.

    I think it’s best for the (many) victims to demand their rights.

    Even though nothing so far has convinced me of the claims, so why should SR go to court? To be faced with someone like VB telling her stories of how SR raped her? I can understand that he feels compassion toward her and doesn’t bother with ‘politics’.

    Like

  947. or perhaps I should say at least be hesitant

    Like

  948. ——————–

    How many rapes and sexual assults do you think are reported? I mean seriously, and after having reported, and brought to court, what is the prosecution rate? something like 3% – I would say that is reason enough for women to not say anything. don’t you?

    Like

  949. when doing so would help clarify things- and perhaps clear up this sorded mess? wouldn’t it be doing his fellow countrymen a favor to clear this up. .

    Do you know what is involved in bringing a case to court? there are numerous reasons why it may not be an option: time elapsed, mental and physical strain of the process and situation, other commitments and those people just trying to get on with their lives. .

    Like

  950. “Also, please explain why not one single instance of media coverage (widespread as it is in the UK and international press) has been met by any litigation whatsoever. In short, if these damaging allegations that have appeared in the Times, the Guardian etc etc are untrue, why hasnt Sogyal sued?”

    Maybe the situation in Tibet is too critical to start a war of this kind.

    Why the women, who claimed to have been far more seriously harmed (not just told names) do not prosecute? They have more reason to if they exist.

    Like

  951. Speak for yourself

    Like

  952. Anon, you folks stated Victoria’s vey detailed accusations against HH Sakya Trizin were falsehoods.

    I don’t know this person, but those who do say she was not speaking the truth.

    This is a lot more serious than a simple “yes/no” lie; in Victoria’s case, the lie consists of paragraph after paragraph of detailed accusation claiming personal abuse by a person she fully names, and names repeatedly.

    Several here wholeheartedly supported her accusation.

    This is nothing short of a crime – inventing a sick, detailed lie about an eminent teacher and human being.

    So, no, I don’t believe any of this garbage at this point and no one else is going to, either.

    Like

  953. “The only way to feel they exist is through attention, negative or positive.”

    Right on right on

    Like

  954. “An unfortunate way to spend the precious moments of this life.”

    Exactly. Many are empty shells wondering through the life. The only way to feel they exist is through attention, negative or positive.

    Soon I hope to put an end to this in my own life.

    Like

  955. And your evidence for this? As someone who admits to having only been involved in this case for a few weeks, and with little experience of research in the field, these are huge conclusions to reach, particularly without providing any evidence, other than an assertion that one date is wrong in the document.

    In fact, though your language use is slightly superior to bellas (not surprisingly-she is clearly of xxxxxx Removed by DI moderation. Please do not reveal personal details. origin), this is more of the same: denial and attack of the imagined opponent.

    In reality, your agenda has been clear for some time, ever since you spoke of Sogyal being ‘hounded’. Your ensuing statements of support then came thick and fast.

    However, you have been unable to prdovide substantial evidence of falsehood. Rather you have attacke all and sundry and denied the possibility that ANY critical allegations could possibly be true-hardly hard nosed academic research based conclusions.

    Perhaps a direct encounter with those victims who have posted here would help you. After all, youve already called these people liars implicitly-Why not just come out and say it directly?

    Also, please explain why not one single instance of media coverage (widespread as it is in the UK and international press) has been met by any litigation whatsoever. In short, if these damaging allegations that have appeared in the Times, the Guardian etc etc are untrue, why hasnt Sogyal sued?

    Like

  956. “I agree with you, BellaB. I think it is a creation. ”

    Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, uh, your opinion, man.

    Like

  957. I agree with you, BellaB. I think it is a creation.

    There has already been one case of an allegation which, according to even the most ardent supporters, was untrue.

    What that means is that this person created paragraph after paragraph of elaborate, detailed falsehood, depicting a “wrongdoing” which never occurred.

    An unfortunate way to spend the precious moments of this life.

    Like

  958. bye! love and peace

    Like

  959. I thought already before it’s impossible to discuss with you.

    a) since you blame me for personal attacks and that my messages reaks from anger – and at the same time you make personal attacks yourself. Then you use different pseydonyms in order to avoid being attacked.

    Doesn’t convince me of any sincerity.

    b) I’m not angry with you, more like frustrated, because you don’t answer my questions about the blog. I already gave my response to DI about the BTT blog. It’s there. Now it’s your turn, but I see it’s not coming. Good bye, again.

    Like

  960. ‘What makes me angry, really angry, is lying and evil talk’

    Nice to see you keeping an open mind on things-Maybe you would benefit from a little anger management therapy?

    You are always going to encounter others who hold different beliefs from yourself. If you dont learn to live with that and constantly demonize others youre going to have problems. At present your responses are rather juvenile and demonstrate a high level of over reliance on the outer guru. More cushion, less blogging?

    Like

  961. Repeat after me ‘I am not in denial, I am not in denial ‘Most of your mail is a personal attack-it reeks of anger

    Like

  962. Denial?

    Because you consider TTB as authentic and truthful, you ignore the reality that I try to bring by saying, I’m in denial.

    What makes me angry, really angry, is lying and evil talk.

    What part of the TTB do you know to be true? Do you know any of those people mentioned in it? For example the ‘mad harem’ women?

    If you don’t know any of those people, you have no way of knowing, if the TTB is true or completely false.

    You haven’t provided any information about your experiences in Rigpa, specifically – and what parts of the blog can you relate – by your real experience?

    I think I have more reason to say that you are in denial and easily believe anything anonymous people tell you.

    Like

  963. As I said, personal attacks and denial but nothing substantial=doesnt really say anything you havent said a thousand times before-good luck

    Like

  964. Actually I think the people who buy into ‘social porn’, could also look out for reality.

    You know BJ and so forth, I feel really bad about the TTB, because the lies I see in every line. I feel bad for anybody who has to read such BS. It’s disgusting and must be a creation of an ugly minded person. I wish DI would double or triple check the source and it’s motives.

    Like

  965. I just happen to know it’s a load of something. Anybody who has spent more time in Rigpa than you have, sees that in a matter of seconds. Social porn it is, since there’s no end to the twisting of reality into something bizarre.

    My personal attacks are mainly directed to the author. I want to place a mirror in front of the person’s face. I’m sorry if others feel bad about it.

    Like

  966. Or treasures such as
    “The whole BTT blog is of the worst kind. I wonder what kind of people take seriously? I find it completely dishonest and a type of a “social porn for dummies”.
    Do you honestly expect anyone to read or believe what you say when you
    write such nonsense: degrade people into not believing???

    Like

  967. Actually Bella I did not read your rebuttal as generally they rarely ever says anything other than “I dont believe it” Its a pack of lies” The author is the devils daughter” etc etc None of anything you ever say encourages me to question the multiple allegations since, in thousands of comments, you have said nothing to logically challenge the allegations, Rather your responses are irrational and illogical. Perhaps a little more reliance on ones own inner Buddha would result in your being able to come up with something a superior to flat denials and personal attacks. Though, since you have not managed to even approach this in your thousands of previous posts, I will not hold my breath.

    Like

  968. “it is not true and is a mistake, albeit, in itself, a minor one (one date in a document of several thousand words-is this the only mistake you could find?)”

    I could find mistakes in ALL paragraphs. Did you bother to read my extensive complaints about it?

    The whole BTT blog is of the worst kind. I wonder what kind of people take seriously? I find it completely dishonest and a type of a “social porn for dummies”.

    Like

  969. further abuse allegations related to the Sogyal issue or questions vis a vis said issue. Reports of abuse by other individuals not related to Rigpa will obviously be moved in accord with the policy outlined. It is perfectly clear.

    Like

  970. No Please feel free to report furht

    Like

  971. Then what you are saying is that no woman will be able to report abuse here, given that an internet post itself cannot count as “sufficient evidence,” and by the definition you’ve just given, any such reports or even questions about specific abuse reports will be deleted.

    Like

  972. “Well, Amos, all I can say is you’re asking the world to believe criminal allegations against a man based on a web article”

    This is incorrect. The criminal allegations are based on multiple testimonies, numerous broadsheet revelations, a television documentary and, in my own case, personal experience of Sogyal’s abusive conduct

    “that purposely or carelessly promotes a glaring historical error in the opening section.”

    The “glaring historical error” is one date, over fifty years ago, that the author plainly got wrong. While, if it were true, it would certainly have ramifications for other other historical events, the fact is, it is not true and is a mistake, albeit, in itself, a minor one (one date in a document of several thousand words-is this the only mistake you could find?).
    Since it is clearly a mistake and obviously untrue, it is without the significance you attach to it.

    Moreover, it is not the case that this one, single mistake renders the whole document invalid as you suggest. There is no logic to such a statement:if someone were example to mistakenly suggest that the Sabbath falls on Sunday rather than Saturday (as does the whole of the occidental Christian world) your logic suggests that the totality of their religious doctrine would be invalid. Again, if someone answers one question incorrectly in an exam, your logic suggests that all their other answers will be wrong. Such an assertion, like your own, would require a huge leap from the world of logic to the realms of the totally illogical.

    “And no one cares enough to even correct it, or justify it.”

    Done!

    From now on, since the majority of posts here are personal attacks or off-topic (‘The War on Tantra’ etc) I will check the forum for issues relating to Rigpa. I would suggest that if anyone has anything to say that is totally irrelevant to the Sogyal/sex abuse issue, you should not waste your time posting here since it will obviously be deleted from this page and moved elsewhere. Looking at previous posts concerning teachers against whom there is clearly insufficient evidence to justify DI publicizing such views, it is clear that further posts concerning such issues will be deleted outright.

    Like

  973. I’m reposting the below here from another DI thread. It is a link to download the full version of “In the Name of Enlightenment.” I have already downloaded and watched it, so can vouch that it is a safe and complete file.

    When reaching the linked page, scroll down till you see “free user” them click on the “Slower Download” button. I takes around 10 mins to download.

    Regards,
    Sankappa

    N,, on December 22, 2011 at 2:41 pm said:

    “The documentary of the Canadian TV is free to watch, however you need to be in Canada in order to do so. The video is very interesting and I suppose the interest to be seen is great, so I managed to download it and I’m sharing it with you.
    Here’s the link to the videos regarding the topic – http://www.fileserve.com/file/uUZEpPf/In the Name of Enlightenment Documentary.rar
    Feel free to re post it and re upload it in different sites and forums (after a certain time, no idea how long, the link wont be valid any more, so it will be great if anybody can upload it to a safe place).”

    Like

  974. Moderation Note

    1) The Dialogue Ireland forum is currently being developed, but it is currently open for registration. Any off-topic posts made on this thread after this announcement will be moved there. So if you find a comment that you left has disappeared you can look for it here:
    http://dialogueireland.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=15

    2) Saying DNFTT while FTT is…strange.

    End Moderation Note

    Like

  975. Well, Amos, all I can say is you’re asking the world to believe criminal allegations against a man based on a web article that purposely or carelessly promotes a glaring historical error in the opening section. And no one cares enough to even correct it, or justify it.

    The whole atmosphere I see presented in these “articles” and forums is one of carelessness, sarcasm, rudeness, and occasionally creepiness. That is *not* how you gain the public’s trust in your perspective.

    Like

  976. PS Personal attakc dont ‘worry’ me-they simply have nothing to do with the issue of Sogyal and abuse and are therefore a useful distraction for his supporters to employ-as you can see

    Like

  977. Which is more disingenuous: using multiple user names and maintaining the same persona and attitude throughout or using one name and manifesting multiple personas and attitudes????

    Personal attacks dont frighten me but,as you can see from both your own and Sheilas comments, a good solid ID always serves as a perfect bais for irrelevant ad hominem attacks

    PS Sheila the qs about Tibet in the 60s remain utter BS and irrelevant red herrings, no matter who you pretend to be

    Like

  978. I think goofing around with multiple flippant or sarcastic usernames, while on such a serious subject, doesn’t inspire confidence that one is serious oneself about the issues. We are certainly not the only two who will see it that way.

    Like

  979. Why do you want to use different pseydonyms Amos, JB, BJ, Guest, Just take your medication…. and so forth?

    Are you afraid of something?

    Are you afraid people would recognize you and form an opinion about you? They can do it about me, Sheila and other people who stick to one pseydonym.

    What is the frightening part about that? Are you saying something – or just want to provoke something here?

    Why do you want to know who people really are? Does it make you feel like you are in charge?

    I’m just wondering these things about you. I guess when you try to hide, I get more curious.

    Like

  980. Which is not to say that I am 50/50 – I feel the 1956 exodus date is most likely to be accurate.

    Like

  981. Amos,

    Are you certain her basis is mistaken? Shouldn’t you ask her, or seek clarification somehow, before just accusing her of making a mistake? Maybe she has good reason for her statement. I simply want to know what sources she used that led her to the 1949 exodus date as opposed to the more commonly-accepted 1956 exodus date.

    Like

  982. Her basis is obviously mistaken, However, events that did or did not take place in Tibet 50 years ago are NOTHING whatsoever to do with the allegations, repeated and widespread. of sexual abuse on the part of Sogyal Lakar. Repeated reference to them is a RED HERRING Any effort people make to satisfy your irrelevant curiosities will therefore simply be a waste of their time, something you seem to be very fond of doing by, for example, asking the same questions repeatedly, even though they have been clearly and repeatedly answered. You have a long track record of doing this, here and elsewhere. This type of behaviour is classic trolling.

    How to recognise a troll:

    Does the person ask the same questions worded in different ways?

    Does the person ignore suggestions or responses from other members of the community?

    Has the person posted inflammatory remarks that have no real substance to them?

    Does he or she respond to other members in a purely negative way?

    Does the person post messages that are generally off-topic?

    Does he or she seem to want only attention rather than discuss the topic at hand?

    Does the person resurrect old conversations or discussions that were once controversial within the community? Some trolls enjoy bringing back old arguments to encourage dissent within a group.

    When confronted with a counter argument, does the person in question change tactics rather than answer the points made by another member?

    Does the person employ logical fallacies within their posts?

    Sheila, this is YOU Your answer to all of these is ‘YES’ You are officially a troll!!! The sword of Damocles is dangling just above your head. Now take your medication.

    Like

  983. Amos,

    I’m here for many reasons, all of which I’ve given. I am not a student of Sogyal Rinpoche.

    I have never said HHDL “supports Sogyal Rinpoche,” nor have I said he does not. I said HHDL supports the heretofore unchallenged history that Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö visited Lhasa in 1955 and that the Lakar family, including Sogyal Rinpoche, was part of the group.

    Mary Finnigan has made a statement that Sogyal Rinpoche left Tibet when he was two years old, thereby contradicting Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö’s story, as well as calling into question a large number of initiations and teachings said to have been given and received by eminent Buddhist teachers during that 1955 visit. I’m trying to find the basis/bases on which she makes this claim.

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  984. You killed him! Yes but I dont know your name so I cannot defend myself against your allegation-fallacious logic

    “At least the ones who haven’t bothered spending more than 1 retreat in Rigpa. Those people are always free to move elsewhere in search of a more suitable teacher for them”

    What a convenient way of explaining why people leave after only one retreat

    Sheila-so the reason you are here IS just to defend Sogyal-because of the DLs support for him (“Im not a Nyingma, Im a Gelug”) Now I get it!

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  985. Scream any louder and you’ll burst!

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  986. “Again bella, denials and ad hominem attacks. along with appeals to pity (my dog does those when I eat) dont constitute a defence.”

    I know you WANT to misread my sentences. I wrote:

    I happen to know a REAL person who knows those women.

    Those women have different jobs in Rigpa. They are married or in a relationship to different men. Some of them have children. They are not part of any harem, says somebody, who works in Rigpa, knows those people in person and who is even aware what kind of relationships those people have among themselves.

    There is no harem, no orgies… no Janine. Anyone can claim anything.

    How could SR defend himself against the attacks? By saying: No, it didn’t happen. You wouldn’t believe him, even if he danced on his head and repeated the sentence 100 000 times.

    Therefore there can’t be a defense against ANONYMOUS blogs – and the author KNOWS it. Just repeat the allegations year after year, from different angles – and make people believe.

    At least the ones who haven’t bothered spending more than 1 retreat in Rigpa. Those people are always free to move elsewhere in search of a more suitable teacher for them.

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  987. In HHDL’s book, Dzogchen: The Heart Essence of the Great Perfection, there is an introduction by Sogyal Rinpoche, where he writes:

    “I was waiting on a balcony, lost in my thoughts, when a tall, thickset monk with an imposing presence, came out to get me. I joined my master inside, and as we were served tea, His Holiness asked me my name and age. He then held me in a piercing gaze and told me pointedly to make sure I studied hard. It was a moment I have always remembered, for it was probably one of the most important of my entire life.”

    HHDL approved the book Dzogchen: The Heart Essence of the Great Perfection, and obviously this includes the introduction. Considering the intro includes a detailed description of Sogyal Rinpoche’s meeting HHDL in 1955 in Lhasa, I cannot believe HHDL would approve such an encounter if it were not something he, too, remembered.

    Also, given the deep respect for Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö and the fact that Sogyal Rinpoche’s account gives many details of that great master, there is simply no way HHDL would approve a distorted or fabricated tale of that great master being in Lhasa in 1955, if he weren’t actually there.

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  988. What’s an outsider to think of this discussion?
    Seriously?

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  989. IP ban the whole stinking lot.
    Either that or force them to “Just take their medication”

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  990. (as he did to a friend of mine)

    If JB, BJ, Guest, Amos Burke and so forth want to remain undetected as a same person, you should NOT write the above sentence into your messages.

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  991. Anonymous, criminal investigations only happen when people go to the police. Unless someone goes to the police, no investigation will be initiated. Considering that people here aren’t even interested in using their own names, I doubt they’re interested in walking into a police station this afternoon and saying, “Sign me up for a sworn deposition.”

    Mary Finnigan put a lot of work into her article. When an author puts out an article, every bit of it is relevant to discussion.

    Those of you saying the histories of Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö, HH 16th Karmapa, HHDL and all their students are irrelevant to this discussion, are incorrect. HHDL is named in the very beginning of this article.

    Stating that Sogyal Rinpoche left Tibet at age two directly contradicts Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö’s and HHDL’s accepted histories.

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  992. “please explain to me, why the Thank Blog is full of erraneous (sic) mistakes? By accident? “200 people left from 3-year retreat.”

    Er It doesnt say that-read it again-I read the passage twice yesterday

    “SR has low education”-he didnt complete any monastic studies and dropped out of university-Why is there no reference to the fact that S dropped out of Cambridge? Why, instead do they make a bigf deal about him studying there?Please explain.

    I have no idea about his qualifications as a Dzogchen master but, even if her were qualified, if he started screwing his students (as he did to a friend of mine) Id be out of there-After all, isnt a requirement of any Buddhist master that he at least maintains pure moral conduct?

    Again bella, denials and ad hominem attacks. along with appeals to pity (my dog does those when I eat) dont constitute a defence. At least Sheila pretends to be constructing a credible response, albeit based on complete irrelevancies and silly statements concerning the ‘unfathomable consequences of her ground breaking (wind breaking?) research.

    Between the two of you you have all the intmidatory power and credibility of an ageing, sterile newt

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  993. I would just like to add to my previous comment that I believe it is only through a group of women joining together in a criminal prosecution, of which I would willingly be a part, that the truth will out, so that this kind of abuse will be prevented from continuing.

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  994. Then Anonymous, please explain to me, why the Thank Blog is full of erraneous mistakes? By accident? “200 people left from 3-year retreat.” A man did, no one else.

    SR has low education….

    He is not qualified as a Dzogchen master…

    Why the slanderous, awful style, if you are trying to send a truthful message?

    How do you think those 8 women feel, mothers of children, when their names have been dragged into filth?

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  995. As one of the women who gave testimony to the dossier and the courage it took to overcome the fear that prevented not only me but many other women from speaking out for a long time, it saddens me greatly that we have become distracted from the real issue here: that there is overwhelming testimony from multiple sources that sogyal rinpoche has behaved in such a way, that at the very least merits sound and merticulous criminal investigation. If this were in any other situation i.e. work, or other contexts, no one would question the validity of some kind of investigation taking place. My question here to all, is why is this not happening – just because someone claims to be a spiritual master, does this mean they are exempt from justice?

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  996. “allegations of sexual abuse against Sogyal”

    Anyone can claim anything.

    Where’s the courage to bring it to court? The journalists are not paid well enough to take people to court, but what about the claimed victims…?

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  997. Just take your medication

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  998. Contrasry to your beliefs, no one is affected by the claim of Sogyal leaving Tibet aged two-It is you that is claiming that such a ‘shocking revelation’ would have major repercussions for the whole Tibetan Dharma=I am afraid you are a little delusional as it doesnt have much more bearing on things for most ordinary folk than a fart in the bath-it certainly makes no differendce to the allegations of sexual abuse against Sogyal. It is an obvious mistake and as has already been said, that doesnt render the other research invalid. You are obviously a legend in your own mind Sheila and your opinion of your own opinions is grossly inflated. Out here, the beat goes on, with or without you. DNFTT

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  999. Much appreciated, DI.
    However, we will be looking at your off topic stuff soon!

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  1000. DI is seeking clarification from the author/s

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  1001. corboy, if Mary Finnigan has evidence of an alternate 1950s history for Tibetan Buddhism, the implications reach well into today.

    Issues of initiations, qualifications, and ethical standards of many great masters are called into question, if Mary Finnigan’s statement that Sogyal Rinpoche left Tibet in 1949 is true.

    I realize you are not Buddhist, so, yes, this wouldn’t affect you necessarily. But it certainly affects Buddhists.

    Did Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö go to Lhasa in 1955 and at Tsurphu Monastery give teachings and empowerments to the 16th Karmapa, Rangjung Rigpe Dorje, or did he not? Did HH the Karmapa gave him an empowerment in the red form of Avalokiteshvara, or did he not?

    Did he stay at the Samdrup Podrang for meetings with His Holiness the Dalai Lama at the Potala, or not? At Mindroling did he or did he not gave the empowerment of Nyingtik Yabshyi? Is the author saying he did not, as he stated, visit Sakya Monastery, where he gave the most important Lamdré transmissions in the great temple hall?

    I doubt Mary Finnigan made a mistake; after such careful research into Sogyal Rinpoche’s life, looking for everything possible she could criticize him for, don’t you think she meant it when she said he left Tibet at age two?

    The list of masters affected by her claim is long. The list of students affected by it, if what she’s saying is true, is longer.

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  1002. Amos Burke,

    I happen to know a real person who knows those women.

    Those women have different jobs in Rigpa. They are married or in a relationship to different men. Some of them have children.

    There is no harem, no orgies… no Janine.

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  1003. Oh bella-denial is not a defence. Truth however IS is defence against libel The allegations against ST were ‘libellous falsehoods’ . It would appear for many reasons that the allegations against the little fat man are true. Truth should not be censored, only lies

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  1004. “The statements removed were libellous and, it would appear, untrue.”

    These statements are libellous – and unremoved. Would you like somebody writing this about you? And your parner, mother and father, friends and relatives, work colleagues would read it?

    “Dakinis who were in the harem (—-, —-, —-, —-, —-, —–, —–, —-) before Janine’s arrival gradually came to accept her as a team member. Eventually they announced that she should join them in an orgy. Janine was not keen.” BTT

    Those women have nothing to do with any mad harem.

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  1005. Never mind the 1950s. Never mind the Chinese.

    We are trying to discuss Sogyal and Rigpa NOW, RIGHT NOWWWW, not the 1950s.

    To the Moderators of Dialogue Ireland, this section is turning into the Troll Trot.

    Here is the remedy from an article on how to keep Trolls from killing the Internet.

    All you have to do is follow the advice given here in Point # 4, now.

    “Right now if you have a blog or forum or anything else with open comments, and you don’t have a human moderator to watch it, you’re going to wind up with a wasteland. As soon as more than one troll shows up, they will feed off each other until everyone else is gone. You have to control them. And don’t start talking about free speech; the troll’s goal is to shut down speech, to either fill the channel with noise until no one can talk to each other, or to get everyone talking about him instead of the subject at hand. He’s a guy (or gal in a coffee shop screaming nonsense over a bullhorn.”

    http://www.cracked.com/article_16765_5-ways-to-stop-trolls-from-killing-
    internet.html

    (Ha, just watch the trolls. They will claim this is a blog, not a coffee shop. They will start arguments about the definition of ‘coffee shop’. they will do anything to keep us from discussing Sogyal, King of the Trolls.)

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  1006. Or is it an issue of medication? I wonder……..that would account for the multiple personality portrayals and constant changes of professed position. Lithium?

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  1007. This has nothing whatsover to do with Sogyals sexually abusive behaviour. Maybe the author of BTT made a mistake? People do. That however does not render the whole document invalid,

    no one here has questioned it…..so I must assume you support this alternate history.

    Again Bush speaks-If youre not with us youre against us. Utter nonsense

    Everything you write is designed to confuse

    “I don’t think the author will take too kindly to you suggesting that parts of her extensive article are useless “red herrings.”

    Nobody accused the author of BTT-It was you that was accused of the red herring

    “The author of Behind the Thangkas is also on record accusing ^^^^ of sexual abuse. Is that supported by most here?”

    No it is not supported here for the reasons given the other six times you asked this question

    “As we often must do, then, when reading Chinese and North Korean media, we can observe here the patterns of censorship to get at the truth of things, since the truth will not be clearly stated, and in some cases will be censored from the record.”

    The statements removed were libellous and, it would appear, untrue. if the removal of libellous falsehoods is akin to Chinese and North Korean antics then that must mean that their activities are akin to those of Western democracies own media outlets who also exercise caution and discretion when publishing libellous falsehoods and indeed censor them

    “we can observe here the patterns of censorship to get at the truth of things, since the truth will not be clearly stated, and in some cases will be censored from the record.”

    So the removed allegations against ST are “truth” being “censored from the record” I am afraid you contradict yourself here since previously you stated the allegations were false (and otherwise, depending on the direction of the wind [and how much you’d drunk?])

    What this all has to do with the Sogyal sex abuse case I do not know. It certainly creates a massive distraction though. Much ado about nothing IMO

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  1008. I don’t think the author will take too kindly to you suggesting that parts of her extensive article are useless “red herrings.”

    Behind the Thangkas claim that Sogyal Rinpoche left Tibet in 1949, not 1956, has implications for Buddhism reaching from Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö through HH Karmapa 16, Rangjung Rigpé Dorje, to HH the Dalai Lama – and for Tibetan history in general.

    It is a surprising claim, and unprecedented as far as I can tell. To my knowledge, these masters’ accounts of Their activities in the 1950s have not been previously questioned. I would like to know what the basis is for these claims; no one here has questioned it, other than BellaB so I must assume you support this alternate history.

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  1009. RED HERRING-NO BEARING ON THE ISSUE OF ABUSE

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  1010. Do those here who support the Behind the Thangkas information support its claim, then, that Sogyal Rinpoche left Tibet at age two?

    The author of Behind the Thangkas is also on record accusing removed of sexual abuse. Is that supported by most here?

    Dialogue Ireland will remove HH’s name above, shortly; however it will not do the same with Sogyal Rinpoche’s name. As we often must do, then, when reading Chinese and North Korean media, we can observe here the patterns of censorship to get at the truth of things, since the truth will not be clearly stated, and in some cases will be censored from the record.

    The author of BTT obviously spent time and effort on it and no doubt had a good reason for saying Sogyal Rinpoche left Tibet at age two. Since Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö was In effect Sogyal’s father, I would. Like to ask whether Mary is saying (or you here accept) the implication that Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö did not leave Kham in 1955 as he said he did, but in fact was already living in India.

    This claim also has implications for HH 16th Karmapa, as Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö was said to have given him teachings in Lhasa in 1955; does Mary Finnigan have evidence this is not the case?

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  1011. oh great yogini-Please explain what/who gets reborn-careful, remember the doctrine of no-self

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  1012. No-self. A-ha.

    What do you think in HHDL or any other being incarnates? Why are they called rebirths?

    I’m afraid Tibetan families who have grown with SR are more reliable witness than Behind the Thankas.

    Those Tibetans looking forward to seeing him were under the guidance of Tibetan lamas, who know SR and who are familiar with rebirths and also who he is and was in the past incarnation.

    Our schools and Universities are filled with abusive teachers. I have no difficulties in seeing the two in one person. Behind the Thankas is no evidence – at all. It’s made up by some people who have an issue with SR being who he is – and that has nothing to do with sex.

    Which part do you consider especially reliable in Behind the Thankas?

    Can’t you see the ‘incredible story line’ there? No_thing matches with reality.

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  1013. I agree its a stupid war because you simply cannot understand that someone can be a good teacher and asexual abuser at the same time

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  1014. Ask generations of Tibetans why they dont use the title, they decided, not me-you could be seen as falsely glorifying Sogyal by calling him terton so be careful

    ‘His subtle body, His subtle mind’????Clearly you do not understand the doctrine of no-self. No ‘being’ reincarnates to take up occupancy of a recently vacated sublt body-it is a different subtle body which manifests, not the same one Duuuuuuuuuuuuuh!

    Close friends and family are not reliable witnesses Im afraid and as for people in Tibet who want to meet him (and therefore never have), that just means he is famous there as a benefactor-Fame and spiritual status are not equivalents Duuuuuuh!

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  1015. Oh no, his past incarnation was a Tertön, but he is no longer the same being.

    How do you explain all this? New body, new mind? His subtle mind and body have incarnated – and for me he is the same as the previous Tertön. Going around in pointless circles.

    And if you cannot trust anything SR says, then go back to the Thanka Blog. Study that well as if it were your sacred ‘Bible’, live in ignorance.

    Do you know that a few others have also known and met SR when he was a child? Why should I hold on to some Western Observer’s view on Rinpoche, when I can rely on people who are close to SR, his family, Tibetan friends and friends of his family? I have encountered a few of them in Lerab Ling.

    A lama friend went to Tibet a few years back and met a few Tibetans there, who longed to meet SR. He is well known person. You may insist in your ignorant view, but I don’t really care. Fighting a stupid war, are we?

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  1016. Sheila
    I know nothing of the source for the statement for leaving Tibet at 2-there again, I didnt write it so why would I?

    Secondly, your questions with regard to Sogyals education, status, age and geographical whereabouts in his early years etc etc are an irrelevance with regard to the issue of abuse: even a well educated person can perpetrate abuse, as indeed can, rich,famous ones, and even holders of numerous titles (The Very Reverend’). Academic status or where one lived when one was 3 years old are no indication of an individuals propensity to abuse.Your enquiries in this regard are therefore meaningless, except in their potential for discrediting the author with straw man arguments, red herrings and ad hominem attacks. One piece of research can be flawed, just as can one piece of evidence in a murder case. Would this render the murderer innocent?

    Bella
    ‘I’m too lazy to read publicity, but I do listen while I’m in his teachings’ and so you believe these things because Sogyal says they are true? Blind faith is inferior in Buddhist thought.

    Again, like the pictures (of which I can find very few whereas photography had become popular among the Tibetan elite had become very popular during this period, as the innumerable photographs of contemporary prominent lamas in their youth testify) all the statements regarding his upbringing come from him or Khandrola, his maternal aunt and someone he supported financially for many years

    Your reference to Sogyal as a terton is incorrect. His supposed previous incarnation was a revealer of treasures and therefore worthy of the title ‘terton’. Sogyal himself has not revealed any terma during his current life and is therefore not a suitable basis for the title. A basic knowledge of this etiquette is clearly missing from your correspondingly obvious limited experience of the Buddhist traditions. The Great Fifth Dalai Lama, Ngawang Lobsang Gyatso (1617–1682) for instance is considered a terton: the current 14th does not hold the title ‘terton’.

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  1017. The Observer,

    I’m too lazy to rad publicity, but I do listen while I’m in his teachings.

    Did Sogyal Rinpoche as a child choose which pictures were taken of him?

    You are on the hunt, but really a boring one. Nothing in your Thanka Blog matches – and there’s a problem for you!

    “You refer to S as a ‘terton’. Which termas has he revealed?”

    You honestly do not know? Terton Lerab Lingpa, as JKCL told everybody as his past incarnation. It was said that he would achieve a lot in this life. If you compare your own life and his, what would you say?

    In this life he hasn’t been a Terton, but in Rigpa the revealed terma of his past life Tendrel Nyesel is practiced daily. It is said also that during Lerab Lingpa’s time, it will not be practiced a lot, but in the future it will be practiced.

    http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Tendrel_Nyesel

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  1018. The Observer, are you or anyone here aware of documentation/commentaries that support Behind the Thangka’s statement that Sogyal Rinpoche left Tibet when he was two years old?

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  1019. Bella
    Youve obviously read all the publicity, most of which is based on Sogyals own accounts of his upbringing The photo is very convincing and reminds me of that of the Dalai Lama with Shoko Asahara of Aum Shinrikyo (the sarin gas murderers on the Japanese metro), who somewhat surprisingly used it to establsih his close relationship with the Dalai Lama.

    I see the list of JKCLs students comes from the Rigpa Wiki. Interesting

    You refer to S as a ‘terton’. Which termas has he revealed?

    Sheila
    It is clear Sogyal was not educated fully in a monastic context, nor is he extensively academically educated since said education started late (aged 12) and terminated before he was able to complete his undergraduate degree education. I would agree, this amounts to more than a basic education. It is in fact on a par with the average university drop out,

    Can we take it that, in defending Sogyal so rigorously you are finally revealing your true reasons for being here (as opposed to the various guises you have adopted beforehand, both here and on Rick Ross?)

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  1020. “If he entered his education at age seven as is usually the case, his classical training lasted two years therefore”

    He lived with his master as his “son”. Image of them below. SR speaks of his tutor sometimes. He was wild as a child, as Tertöns are said to be, and his tutor had hard time with him. SR has told how he run to hide from the tutor to the back of his master. Chokyi Lödro wasn’t too hard on him.

    http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Students_of_Jamyang_Khyentse_Ch%C3%B6kyi_Lodr%C3%B6

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  1021. “Basic education” to me (American) means primary through eighth grade or equivalent.

    The United Nations defines “basic education” as:

    Level 1 – Primary education or first stage of basic education
    Level 2 – Lower secondary or second stage of basic education

    By UNESCO standards, Level 3, Upper secondary education, is already beyond “basic education.”

    The point is, when the author states Sogyal Rinpoche received “only a basic education,” we are lead to believe Sogyal Rinpoche didn’t have very much schooling–which is untrue.

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  1022. But why does Behind the Thangkas say he left Tibet at age two? What is the basis for this statement?

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  1023. The age Sogyal left Tibet has no bearing on the extent of his education nor has any such assertion been made by myself. From 1957 and commencing at age 12, Sogyal’s education took place in an academic context, in a western style school then college, and not in a monastic context. Sogyal left the monasteries of Kham three years previously, age nine. If he entered his education at age seven as is usually the case, his classical training lasted two years therefore.Finally, his academic education did not culminate in his achieving even a bachelors degree. This sounds quite basic from both perspectives, academic and classical

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  1024. “I believe the reference to a basic education in India refers to the fact that, contrary to Rigpa publicity which claims that he received a full monastic education…”

    Ex Rigpa, the Behind the Thankgas wording is: “So how did a 63 year old man…[who] had only a basic education in India, come to be the head of a multi-national organisation with tentacles in five continents? How did he manage to raise 10 million Euros to build a huge temple in southern France?”

    None of these statements question his level of monastic education, but rather his level of modern financial achievement–i.e. how one could achieve such a level with “only a basic education in India.”

    If the available data is correct, he received his education in Tibet, Sikkim, India, and England, between the years of 1952-1972 (that’s if we follow the western habit of believing formal education starts around age 5 – in Tibetan terms, he would have been considered to have begun his education well before 1952).

    My original point was that the sum of Sogyal Rinpoche’s education seems well beyond the article’s claims of him having “left Tibet at age 2” (untrue) and having received “only a basic education in India.”

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  1025. Correction:

    He said himself: I had those experiences as a child, but later discovered what they actually were.

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  1026. “contrary to Rigpa publicity which claims that he received a full monastic education during this period”

    Rigpa has NEVER claimed he has had ANY monastic training.

    He is not a monk and never was. He was most likely introduced to the nature of mind when he was a child, living with Jamyank Khyentse Chokyi Lödro. He has said so, either during the teachings or in literature, I can’t remember. He said himself: I had those experiences, but later discovered what they actually were.

    If some monk has been training in a monastery for 30 years – and didn’t get any luck with the nature of mind practice, which do you think is more relevant at the moment of death: the stream of philosophy or the experience itself?

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  1027. Did you know that Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö was afraid of mice and the dark? (See ‘Brilliant Moon’).Are you also aware of there being a well documented history of many lamas in Tibet appointing children from rich and influential families as tulkus? Notably, there were three main incarnations of Tertön Sogyal: Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok, Sogyal Rinpoche, and Gendün Rinchen (1926-1997), the late Je Khenpo of Bhutan. As far as I am aware, the families of neither the former nor the latter brought substantial funds into the coffers of the Nyingma tradition. Unlike Sogyal, both were born relatively soon after the death of Terton Sogyal in 1926.Sogyal himself was born 21 years later.

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  1028. Once again, many thanks

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  1029. Refs please,

    I hadn’t checked Finnigan’s original Behind the Thangkas website, but did so just now – the paragraph is worded the same (in other words, there doesn’t appear to have been a mistake transferring the article to DI – the original article also states Sogyal Rinpoche left Tibet at age two).

    Here’s the original:

    http://behindthethangkas.wordpress.com/2011/11/20/1-behind-the-thangkas/

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  1030. Re the ‘Cambridge education’, you will note that nowhere does it state that Sogyal ‘received a degree in Comparative Religion from Cambridge’. The reason for this is that he left Cambridge after two years, having failed to complete any such degree. Not surprisingly, this fact does not appear in Rigpa literature.

    I believe the reference to a basic education in India refers to the fact that, contrary to Rigpa publicity which claims that he received a full monastic education during this period (an education which normally takes around 25 years according to Dreyfuss and would therefore have ended the year he dropped out from Trinity) his education from 12 years of age was one that took place at the hands of Catholics,not in Buddhist philosophy but in English, maths and science ‘Basic’ Since most Rinpoches enter monastic training at around 7 years of age, this suggests Sogyal,s full monastic education took only 5 years, including the period during which he travelled from Kham to Sikkim. Gifted?

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  1031. Many thanks

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  1032. Here’s the paragraph in question:

    “Sogyal Rinpoche chose this name in honour of Lerab Lingpa, a 19th century Tibetan Buddhist master Sogyal claims as his predecessor. So how did a 63 year old man in poor health, who left his native Tibet when he was just two, and had only a basic education in India, come to be the head of a multi-national organisation with tentacles in five continents? How did he manage to raise 10 million Euros to build a huge temple in southern France? And then persuade the wife of the President to provide the media focus for the opening day?”

    Firstly, Sogyal Rinpoche did not “claim” his predecessor. It was Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö who named Lerab Lingpa’s incarnation, and to suggest otherwise is both untrue, and a serious accusation against Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö.

    Secondly, Sogyal Rinpoche does not appear to have left Tibet at age two, but age nine or ten.

    Thirdly, he did not receive “only a basic education in India.” Aside from the fact that his on root guru was one of the great masters of our time, he attended college in Delhi, India and Cambridge, England (according to author Stephen Batchelor).

    Fourth, what is the basis for the statement that Sogyal Rinpoche “persuaded the wife of the President to provide the media focus for the opening day?” In fact, Sarkozy came in response to the uproar in France that her husband had just dissed HHDL; the media were at Lerab Ling for HHDL and Sarkozy, not Sogyal Rinpoche. According to Estele Shirbon, Reuters:

    “[T]he Chinese ambassador to France warned that there would be “serious consequences” if Sarkozy met the Dalai Lama. Sarkozy responded sharply that it was not for China to determine his agenda.

    Eventually he declined to meet the Dalai Lama and again this disappointed advocates of Tibet who said he had caved in to pressure from China. Bruni-Sarkozy’s presence at Lerab Ling on Friday, while drawing a huge media circus, is unlikely to put the issue to rest as she has no official role in the government.” (Estele Shirbon, Reuters, 22 August 2008)

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  1033. It isn’t a strawman. From the third paragraph:

    So how did a 63 year old man in poor health, who left his native Tibet when he was just two, and had only a basic education in India, come to be the head of a multi-national organisation with tentacles in five continents?

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  1034. This looks very much like a straw man argument. FYI

    A ‘straw man’ is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position. To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
    The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:
    Person A has position X.(‘Sogyal left Tibet’)
    Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y (Here ‘The Thangkas document states that Sogyal left Tibet at 2 years of age’). Thus, Y is a thoroughly distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent’s position
    Person B then attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed/unreliable..
    This sort of “reasoning” is fallacious, because attacking a distorted version of a position fails to constitute an attack on the actual position.Such an activity is one often associated with trolls.

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  1035. Refs please, Behind the Thangkas is the current article to which you and I are posting comments. In the third paragraph, the author states Sogyal Rinpoche left Tibet at age two.

    I asked whether anyone had evidence that this is the case, give the evidence to the contrary (that he left Tibet in 1957 at the age of nine or ten).

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  1036. Please, the basic premise of your whole attack was that the integrity of the document was suspect because of the inaccuracy of the research. I would like to be sure that the allegation that the research was flawed is correct. Otherwise it looks suspiciously like you have invented a falsity and used it as a launchpad for a baseless attack on the author, something which seriously DOES raise important questions about your own motives.

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  1037. link please

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  1038. Refs please,

    There’s no way it could raise questions, since the statement is in the article itself and I’m the one who pointed it out in the first place.

    ‘Tis in the third paragraph near the end.

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  1039. I have read the document you refer to and on which you based your critique. I cannot find the reference to Sogyal leaving Tibet at two years of age anywhere. It would be very helpful if you could provide it, particularly since it forms the basis of said critique. Not providing it, on the other hand, would certainly raise a number of questions.I would ask you to provide the reference therefore.

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  1040. Refs please,

    I doubt there’s any way to say this without coming off as rude, but there’s probably not much point in discussing articles posted on Dialogue Ireland if people aren’t actually reading them.

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  1041. Sheila, on December 28, 2011 at 7:35 pm said:
    Why does Behind the Thangkas says Sogyal Rinpoche left Tibet when he was two years old
    Where?

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  1042. Why does Behind the Thangkas says Sogyal Rinpoche left Tibet when he was two years old? According to several biographies, Sogyal Rinpoche left Kham for Lhasa in 1955.

    Sogyal Rinpoche describes in some detail his first encounter with the Dalai Lama in his foreword to the book Dzogchen: The Heart Essence of the Great Perfection, by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. If HHDL disagreed with the date of their first encounter, he certainly would not have approved Sogyal Rinpoche’s introduction to this book.

    According to the extant biographies, Sogyal Rinpoche didn’t arrive in India until the end of 1956–putting his age close to 10 years old, not 2.

    Does the author have evidence that Sogyal Rinpoche actually arrived in India in 1949, not 1956? Was there some reason Sogyal, his family, and the fifty or so other people who said they went to Lhasa in 1955, were actually all living in India since 1949?

    What would cause all these people to suddenly move to India in 1949, years before the main Tibetan exodus?

    Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö, Sogyal’s official childhood guardan and teacher, is on-record as having given teachings in Lhasa in 1955, including empowerments to the 16th Karmapa, Rangjung Rigpé Dorje. Are you saying none of this happened? If so, where can I find evidence supporting this new theory?

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  1043. Can someone tell me if any of the anonymous (or named) women in Behind the Thangkas are the French woman who spoke at the 1997 Inform conference?

    I don’t need names – just a way to sort which anonymous/pseudonamed person is which.

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  1044. Anonymous, on December 26, 2011 at 10:54 am said:
    You speak as if ‘we’ are a collective of folk. a self-appointed group of jurors who are here to judge others, often those considered superior to ourselves.
    In my own case, I have spent many years following the Buddhist path AND studying the characteristics of cults. I post here to support DI when they post what is clearly valid evidence of misconduct of teachers, whatever their status and title, and to condemn posts based on scurrilous allegations bandied around the web by various parties intent on spreading lies, I dont work for anyone and my sole motive is the preservation of my faith,
    I contrast this with those who post here who have neither extensive experience of the Dharma, nor of the study of cults and NRMs, individuals of various motives who post their opinions on the web, opinions based at best on ignorance and at worst as part of a deliberate campaign to destroy Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism,
    I am not in a competition; the whole reason behind my question was to ascertain the extent of your knowledge and experience of the Buddhist path, Your quite proper condemnation of competitive Buddhism and your refusal to answer the questions concerning your own practice count as implicit admissions on your part that your experience is limited, as does your racially stereotypical reference to your ‘Tibetan teacher’, as if Tibetans were genetically more spiritual than anyone else;anyone with any experience of Tibetans knows that some can be as evil as the next white man and those who hold a contrary view are usually naive devotees, still in the shangrila phase of their encounter
    Coupled with your own admission of being relatively new to the field of cult behaviour and your claim to have performed extensive research for ‘weeks’, both of which demonstrate your naivety in said field, this places you squarely in the field of those with little experience of the faith or cult studies who,nevertheless, post here and assert yourself as if you were some long-standing expert on the subject of Buddhism and cults. which you clearly consider yourself to be
    Posing as such you then make false assertions based on scant evidence that certain teachers of ill repute are being ‘hounded’ and that those ‘experts’ who post here, and the sites proprietors do not know what constitutes immoral abusive behaviour and indeed are ignorant of those groups who are actually engaged in damaging and perverse behaviour.
    You also demonstrate a clear lack of knowledge of internet etiquette amongst others in the field who are well aware of the fact that. due to the nature of internet search engines, it is both immoral and damaging to repeatedly make reference to individuals by their full name, alongside terms such as abuse until you are absolutely certain of their complicity in abusive acts. Your conduct in the case of ST for example has ensured that, despite their being no reliable evidence against him and all the claims originating from one person alone, whenever anyone keys in his name, the likelihood of those allegations appearing has been significantly increased.
    In short, you are naive in the field and yet post prolifically as if your opinions arose from years of experience of the faith and the cult field. You then make sweeping statements concerning the innocence of well known abusers as if those statements were based on genuine research and experience
    Your conduct therefore endangers the credibility of the field of cult investigations and that of your professed faith. Worse, in you granting innocent verdicts on individuals against whom there is clear and established evidence of abuse, you run the clear danger of driving innocent victims into their open arms.
    All of this renders you a significant danger to many; your faith, others, the field of cultic studies.
    The best advice I could give you in such a situation is to retire to the cushion for several more years and, if you intend to continue posting on cult sites, engage in a few years of academic study in the field. Finally, where all of the evidence that appears about an individual or group points to their guilt (ie it is repeated, over many years, from multiple, reliable sources, concurs with the experience of your peers, is corroborated by the media and other organizations engaged in investigating cultic behaviour) refrain from repeatedly posting your ‘opinions’ to the contrary because of the dangers this poses to others.
    I will not respond to any further posts here. It is entirely up to DI whether they allow you to post here, and to act as a platform for your views. You seem to have driven everyone else away so I can only assume my willingness to engage with you is a sign of my own stubborness. I therefore offer you the ‘victory’ You have won-your opinion is obviously correct because you repeat it louder and more frequently than others. Good luck in your quest for power and happiness (these two are not the same thing BTW)

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  1058. Anonymous, JB, BJ, Guest and so forth,

    you could start commenting the Thanka Blog and leave Sheila in peace.

    Do you consider the Thanka Blog as something that sounds ‘reliable’? State also, why do you consider so. If any part of it sound s ‘a bit’ crazy, you can also point that part out.

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  1059. Removed: Off-topic

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  1060. You speak as if ‘we’ are a collective of folk. a self-appointed group of jurors who are here to judge others, often those considered superior to ourselves.

    In my own case, I have spent many years following the Buddhist path AND studying the characteristics of cults. I post here to support DI when they post what is clearly valid evidence of misconduct of teachers, whatever their status and title, and to condemn posts based on scurrilous allegations bandied around the web by various parties intent on spreading lies, I dont work for anyone and my sole motive is the preservation of my faith,

    I contrast this with those who post here who have neither extensive experience of the Dharma, nor of the study of cults and NRMs, individuals of various motives who post their opinions on the web, opinions based at best on ignorance and at worst as part of a deliberate campaign to destroy Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism,

    I am not in a competition; the whole reason behind my question was to ascertain the extent of your knowledge and experience of the Buddhist path, Your quite proper condemnation of competitive Buddhism and your refusal to answer the questions concerning your own practice count as implicit admissions on your part that your experience is limited, as does your racially stereotypical reference to your ‘Tibetan teacher’, as if Tibetans were genetically more spiritual than anyone else;anyone with any experience of Tibetans knows that some can be as evil as the next white man and those who hold a contrary view are usually naive devotees, still in the shangrila phase of their encounter

    Coupled with your own admission of being relatively new to the field of cult behaviour and your claim to have performed extensive research for ‘weeks’, both of which demonstrate your naivety in said field, this places you squarely in the field of those with little experience of the faith or cult studies who,nevertheless, post here and assert yourself as if you were some long-standing expert on the subject of Buddhism and cults. which you clearly consider yourself to be

    Posing as such you then make false assertions based on scant evidence that certain teachers of ill repute are being ‘hounded’ and that those ‘experts’ who post here, and the sites proprietors do not know what constitutes immoral abusive behaviour and indeed are ignorant of those groups who are actually engaged in damaging and perverse behaviour.

    You also demonstrate a clear lack of knowledge of internet etiquette amongst others in the field who are well aware of the fact that. due to the nature of internet search engines, it is both immoral and damaging to repeatedly make reference to individuals by their full name, alongside terms such as abuse until you are absolutely certain of their complicity in abusive acts. Your conduct in the case of ST for example has ensured that, despite their being no reliable evidence against him and all the claims originating from one person alone, whenever anyone keys in his name, the likelihood of those allegations appearing has been significantly increased.

    In short, you are naive in the field and yet post prolifically as if your opinions arose from years of experience of the faith and the cult field. You then make sweeping statements concerning the innocence of well known abusers as if those statements were based on genuine research and experience

    Your conduct therefore endangers the credibility of the field of cult investigations and that of your professed faith. Worse, in you granting innocent verdicts on individuals against whom there is clear and established evidence of abuse, you run the clear danger of driving innocent victims into their open arms.

    All of this renders you a significant danger to many; your faith, others, the field of cultic studies.

    The best advice I could give you in such a situation is to retire to the cushion for several more years and, if you intend to continue posting on cult sites, engage in a few years of academic study in the field. Finally, where all of the evidence that appears about an individual or group points to their guilt (ie it is repeated, over many years, from multiple, reliable sources, concurs with the experience of your peers, is corroborated by the media and other organizations engaged in investigating cultic behaviour) refrain from repeatedly posting your ‘opinions’ to the contrary because of the dangers this poses to others.

    I will not respond to any further posts here. It is entirely up to DI whether they allow you to post here, and to act as a platform for your views. You seem to have driven everyone else away so I can only assume my willingness to engage with you is a sign of my own stubborness. I therefore offer you the ‘victory’ You have won-your opinion is obviously correct because you repeat it louder and more frequently than others. Good luck in your quest for power and happiness (these two are not the same thing BTW)

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  1066. If you do not answer the very clearly asked questions this time, then you are simply wasting time ie trolling> As such I will request that you be blocked permanently by DI. I have already discussed this off site with DI because of your previous actions and they have agreed to it should you continue your antics. Answer the questions-clearly asked several times before
    Question 1(A):Since you are purportedly fighting your fight on behalf of vajrayana practitioners and you clearly count yourself as one, and in light of your policy of complete openness, I wonder if you could share with us which of the ngondro or extraordinary preliminary practices you have completed and
    Question 1:(B) how many approximating retreats you have engaged in?
    Question 2 (A):Secondly, if you are so keen to protect the Vajrayana, could you explain why, after being told repeatedly that it was unskilful to use teachers names alongside terms such as abuse in posts as this only increased the likelihood of these terms, along with the innocent teachers names, appearing on the web, of the more than 160 references to HHST alone on the last thread, along with terms like sexual abuse, the overwhelming majority of references came from you, many of them after you had been told of the potential ill effects of your actions?
    Question 2(B):Could you please explain this significant anomaly?

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  1069. “The Indie, on December 24, 2011 at 1:02 pm said:

    And yes, I have been to Rigpa. In fact, Sogyal screwed my mates girlfriend after I took them there.”

    Why don’t you start using one single pseydonym? JB, BJ, Guest and whoever else you are.

    So you are not happy with many Dharma Centres, not just Rigpa?

    In fact, SR commented a while ago that Rigpa Sangha has matured. Of course he is not then talking about the newbies, not even a person like myself, but the real practitioners, like the people who attended the 3 year retreat. Mature = people who have calmed down a bit and can deal with their emotions better.

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  1075. In 1978, the Palestinian-American scholar Edward Said published his influential and controversial book, Orientalism, which “would forever redefine” the word; he used the term to describe a pervasive Western tradition, both academic and artistic, of prejudiced outsider interpretations of the East, shaped by the attitudes of European imperialism in the 18th and 19th centuries

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  1076. I think youll find MF is not here. Shes certainly not in the body sat here doing this.
    Could you please answer the questions?
    I suggest you also lose your Shangri la glasses. Most Tibetans are just humans like ourselves. Among them, like ourselves, there are some very great beings. SImilarly, there are some dodgy dealers out for personal gain. Shangri la glasses make it so that we cant see things as they are but instead consider everything oriental to be on a higher spiritual plain. Wake up, some Tibetans are in it for the money, not all of them BUT some and, as long as people hold their rose tinted spectacles on their noses, the longer wily Tibetans (as opposed to the great Tibetan masters) will take every opportunity to screw every last cent out of their gullible victims, many of whom hold views similar to your own. Now answer the questions oh great yogini

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  1080. And yes, I have been to Rigpa. In fact, Sogyal screwed my mates girlfriend after I took them there.

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  1081. “Maybe you should visit the place and see how calm people are there”
    Talk about Westerners bringing their own concept of religious piety to Eastern faiths. It sounds more like The Invasion of the Body Snatchers! IMO Dharma centres are usually nests of neurosis with power trippers and Buddhist egomaniacs galore, once you scratch the surface-even Longchenpa walked out of the monastery because the worldly behaviour of monks disgusted him. You are clearly still on the edge bella and have little experience of the true machinations in Dharma centres. Shangri La? Dont think so

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  1083. “Rigpa is the perfect place for people who want to be aggressive and who dont want to do what real Buddhadharma teaches, which is to examine aggression and not act it out.

    Repeat, for people who are aggressive dont want to give up aggression or question it, yet want to feel ‘Buddhist’ or ‘spiritual’ an entity like RIGPA is the perfect place because troll activity is supported and is not discouraged as it would be in a *true* Buddhist practice community.”

    Maybe you should visit the place and see how calm people are there? No wonder other teachers are pleased to see Rigpa Sangha.

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  1085. the above was me, sankappa

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  1086. One and all have a great festive season. I’m outta here, as they say!

    Thanks DI for hosting and all the work you do for the greater good.

    It’s now time to put that new manifesto into action and reel in these trolls!

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  1091. The Indie,

    I’m asking whether one of the anonymous (or named) witnesses in Behind the Thangkas is the “French woman” from the 1997 Inform Conference.

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  1111. In reality–for any practical purpose–there are no witnesses.

    Look at the Catholic church scandals–hundreds of boys, girls, their friends, their mothers, their fathers, their neighbors–all willing to testify loudly using their real names, under oath. In fact, testifying as we speak. And that despite documented, law-enforcement-identified threats from the Church.

    If you want to decry Buddhism, it won’t happen by making wild attempts to equate sexual activity among Buddhist adults to Catholic priests committing sexual crimes against children.

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  1112. It should be obvious that BTT, quite rightly, uses pseudonyms for all the victims.

    Nevertheless. in ‘The lawsuit’ it states:
    ‘Sogyal was scheduled to lead Rigpa’s annual UK Easter retreat, booked to happen at Harrow School, but someone at Harrow heard the BBC item and promptly cancelled the booking. “Rigpa was stuck with more than a hundred people and nowhere to go” says one of Sogyal’s organisers at the time.’ I believe this was the person you are interested in.

    The lady concerned was clearly DIs first encounter with the S scandal and that is perhaps why she was important for them. For MF on the other hand she was clearly only one name in a list of many and therefore perhaps not so important, Thats how someone can be both important and not important at the same time. Your position on the issue is reminiscent of George Bush’s “If youre not with us, youre against us” statement. The logic was highly questionable when he said it.

    As you know, INFORM will not give names unless permission is given. However, I feel certain they would confirm that ‘A French lady’ spoke at the conference, since this does not break any confidences

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  1117. Sankappa, what do you think the role of a Dzogchen master is?

    “The finger pointing at the moon, is not the moon”
    I like that sentence – and I was really into Zen Buddhism before I met SR and Tibetan Buddhism. I read Matsuo Bashoäs haiku poems. I do understand. SR is my teacher: it works for me.

    You mentioned you experienced mental abuse, not sexual.

    What was it all about?

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  1118. The finger pointing at the moon, is not the moon

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  1119. For Bella:

    No name, on December 8, 2011 at 10:47 am said:

    In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king
    ‘I never experienced it with any other teacher/-then you need to get out more-you obviously have very little experience outside the rigpa framework
    SR may be a good teacher for you but the sexuala buse he has perpetrated is a sepasrate issue-you are confusing the two and trying to convince everyone else that your view is the only correct view
    If you had any faith you would be content with that but becuase of your weakness you have to force your view on others
    Your dream xperences are YOUR dream experiences-if they teach you something, great But the fact that you attribute them to S is just an indcation of your own lack of faith in your own wisdom-soy you put it ouside yourself
    So many weaknesses and the only person that can truly help you out of them is you,S is just a sign pointing the way not a god

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  1120. Sankappa, I had an interesting retreat with SR. We were doing RD practice intensively for 10 days.

    One night I saw two strong dreams and I woke into them at 2 am. In the other dream I asked a question about a certain practice which is not practiced in Rigpa, after which SR turned into a wrathful form, trying to kill me, I feared. In the dream he chased me around and tried to hit me with something. I noticed that it was an umbrella (symbol of refuge and protection). Then I turned around and I told him that I’m not doing the practice I asked question about. Then he calmed down in my dream and said: “At least you understand.”

    The next day in real life SR was really pressing all my feminist buttons – and I was boiling inside. I wanted to give him a private message where I would have told him how I feel about him. I also spoke to a worker. In the evening I went outside to eat in a restaurant – and when I sat down on the chair, I thought: “Oh, never mind. Now I just want to let go of my anger and relax.” What happened next, was that I just felt this incredible all pervasive feeling of love. It was so extraordinary, that I thought: where is this coming from? Then I remembered the teachings that it is inside oneself, the abyss of love. That love was so wide, it had no borders, it had no object to grasp into. It just went right through me.

    Could you Sankappa, stop to consider, that pressing the buttons of people might have a deeper purpose than what meets the eye? Maybe I was so thick, that I needed all my feminist protective cover identity removed? Maybe he used it in order to crack me (my self preserving ego) open? At least I’m truly happy about my experience, that lasted for about 5 minutes. I was in the presence of my best friend – and I told him about my experience in wonder.

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  1121. I remember this story :) Happy Solstice, BellaB!

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  1122. Wow, profound….

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  1123. Sankappa, do you know the story:

    One great master in the nineteenth century had a disciple who was very thick-headed. The master had taught him again and again, trying to introduce him to the nature of his mind. Still he did not get it. Finally, the master became furious and told him: “Look, I want you to carry this bag full of barley up to the top of that mountain over there. But you mustn’t stop and rest. Just keep on going until you reach the top.”

    The disciple was a simple man, but he had unshakable devotion and trust in his master, and he did exactly as he had been told. The bag was heavy and it took him a long time.

    At last, when he reached the top, he dropped the bag. He slumped to the ground, overcome with exhaustion, but deeply relaxed. All his resistance had dissolved, and with it his ordinary mind. At that instant, he suddenly realized the nature of his mind. He ran back down the mountain, and, against all convention, burst into his master’s room.

    “I think I’ve got it now . . . I’ve really got it!”

    His master smiled at him knowingly. “So you had an interesting climb up the mountain, did you?”

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  1128. noodlebowl should read wisdom and focus. The danger of temptation is that people give into it- How by replying and getting caught in the vortex!

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  1129. Yeah good points noodlebowl. The sexual abuse is one aspect, the financial and spiritual abuse (which has been my personal experience) is another. That is, providing dumbed-down dharma at a premium. All smoke and mirrors, colour and movement. So much deception from this charlatan and his organisation.

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  1130. Any discussion of the trolls is trolling. Ignore and focus on Sogyal.

    Turning the dharma into a cash point ( the Yank term is ATM) is his original and most basic offense.

    First it was his greed for money and seeing us as a mere niche market–meat bags with money.

    He was already seeing us as objects for his personal use, long before he decided to go after women.

    Ignore the trolls, ignore all coversation about trolls unless it originates from Dialog Irelands moderator.

    Just keep kicking at the ball–Sogyal and his cash point mentality.

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  1131. Sheila said:

    “…Sogyal Rinpoche is being hounded.”

    You can see by the above statement that sheila believes poor Sogyal is being “hounded” . An analysis of her choice of language reveals she is constantly giving her position away. To her Sogyal is being “hounded”, not Sogyal is being brought to account for his abuse. So not only is she not being objective and unbiased here as she implies, but her sympathies actually lie with Sogyal the abuser.

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  1135. Just keep an eye on the ball as the sports coaches remind us and go after Soggy, Rigpa and the corrupt Tibetan system that has served as the petri dish in which this stuff spawned.

    Any leader or group that inspires troll behavior of the sort we have seen here has demonstrated itself utterly unworthy of support and unable to support true Dharma practice.

    Just ignore the tiresome trolls and keep focused on the ball and keep kicking it. Soggy has an entourage.

    We do not. So its important to preserve stamina and not lose the war of attrition.

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  1136. Please people put an end to these multiple posts, if you can’t say what you want in one post at a time, then perhaps you need to think before you post…main culprits of three or more post mentalism are Shiela and Bellab.

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  1137. AND……..

    Anonymous, on December 12, 2011 at 5:28 pm said:
    Ms Barlow is NOT the only person to make allegations against Sogyal-a large number of women, including personal friends have gone on record concerning sogyals behaviour Therefore I believe them
    V Barlow IS the sole source of allegations against ******therefore I do not believe her.

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  1138. Sheila, on December 20, 2011 at 11:01 pm said:
    –explain why you think one story is credible, and the other is not.
    Bull Shi…ela, on December 20, 2011 at 11:36 pm said:
    In the one case, the allegations are multiple, widespread and from manifold sources while in the other all the allegations are one persons regurgitated under different names
    Sheila, on December 20, 2011 at 11:53 pm said:
    Mike, I repeat the questions because no one’s answering them.
    Bull Shi…ela, on December 20, 2011 at 11:36 pm said:
    In the one case, the allegations are multiple, widespread and from manifold sources while in the other all the allegations are one persons regurgitated under different names
    Sheila, on December 21, 2011 at 5:02 pm said:
    Last Post,
    I’m asking why, specifically, you believe Victoria Barlow’s detailed account of Sogyal Rinpoche is believable, given that you feel her detailed account of ** ***** ***** is not believable

    In the one case, the allegations are multiple, widespread and from manifold sources while in the other all the allegations are one persons regurgitated under different names
    In the one case, the allegations are multiple, widespread and from manifold sources while in the other all the allegations are one persons regurgitated under different names
    In the one case, the allegations are multiple, widespread and from manifold sources while in the other all the allegations are one persons regurgitated under different names
    In the one case, the allegations are multiple, widespread and from manifold sources while in the other all the allegations are one persons regurgitated under different names
    etc etc ad infinitum

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  1139. Correction: just received email from Inform.

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  1140. Just received email from Inform. – they’ve asked that the emails they sent not be made publicly available in its entirety.

    I need to reread them again, but I didn’t initially find anything in them that hadn’t already been made public by DI, so I don’t think anyone’s missing anything by not seeing them. I imagine anyone who wanted to could write Inform directly, as well, and receive the summary I did.

    The chief difference to me was the Inform staff’s tone – measured rather than inflammatory, and that they were very open about the fact that the “recent allegations” cited by some forums as existing against Sogyal Rinpoche are in actuality a few recent “anonymous web postings.” Finally, Inform is not aware of any formal investigations into Rigpa of financial misconduct, on the level of the Charity Commission.

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  1141. Last Post,

    I’m asking why, specifically, you believe Victoria Barlow’s detailed account of Sogyal Rinpoche is believable, given that you feel her detailed account of removed is not believable. The alleged existence of other accusers against Sogyal Rinpoche does not exonerate from having lied about removed.

    Why is her personal story–with its personal details–taken as the truth in one case, when at the same time you feel she was completely inventing a story–with all its personal details, and in fact its very similar details–in another?

    I had no knowledge of this witness before coming to Dialogue Ireland. Most people in the world have not heard of this witness. The situation you are creating for people, is exactly what has happened to me: I see you taking this witness’s statement as gospel truth in one case, and rejecting it a slanderous lie in another.

    Unless you can bring yourself to be open about the fact that this witness’s testimony cannot really be trusted at face value, you will continue to look as if you are not serious about getting a conviction against the Tibetans you are after. This particular witness provides colorful, attention-grabbing details, and I think it’s hard for people, who are trying to convict Tibetan teachers of wrongdoing, to leave out this witness’s testimony even though including it brings the obvious problem: these same people don’t believe her story on removed.

    Are you serious, or are you not serious, about bringing these cases to court?

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  1142. “Do you believe: “we will have an orgy”, says 7 women to the reluctant Janine! Which woman likes orgies in real life? How many? It’s amazing co-incidence that those few women are also Buddhists. Let alone all working in Rigpa.”

    Very good point, BellaB. It’s like porn written by men – they write stories which they themselves would like, but don’t reflect the actual tendencies of women. However, porn isn’t really written for women to read – it’s written for men to read.

    So the question here is: what target group is Behind the Thangkas aiming for? My guess would be “as many people as possible,” i.e. make it pornographic enough to become a hot topic.

    This is the approach the Chinese use all the time – references to the Dalai Lama and scatology, for example. Anything to make it a “hot topic” for a few days.

    The reason I feel it’s ingenuine, is that writing these stories up as porn will never cause any real cases to enter a courtroom; in fact, statistics show that “rumoring something up” makes it less likely to see true legal action. It is serious, measured, de-sensationalized stories which are more likely to be taken seriously by the public, and therefore by a lawyer (who foresees a public jury case).

    Mary Finnigan is an experienced writer, and must know these things; why, then, choose to reduce the chances that real court cases will be brought?

    I recommend using tools such as Google timeline searches to observe the pattern of the removed, anti-Sogyal Rinpoche, and anti-HH Dalai Lama attacks; see what other spikes in activity coincide with recent (and previous) stories.

    I notice, for example, that the author of Behind the Thangkas first posted about Sogyal Rinpoche on Rick Ross in May, 2008 – eight weeks after the 2008 Tibet Uprising. This is the exact timeframe in which Chinese overseas internet commentators flooded forums on any subject having to do with Tibet.

    I know the author isn’t Chinese; I’m asking why the choice to bring up Sogyal Rinpoche coincides with the Chinese doing the same, along with many other attacks against Tibetans in general.

    Is it coincidence? If so, what is a possible explanation? And why hide the authorship of Behind the Thangkas, since doing so makes it less likely to be taken seriously? Is this a real document?

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  1143. Sheila, on December 20, 2011 at 11:01 pm said:
    –explain why you think one story is credible, and the other is not.

    Bull Shi…ela, on December 20, 2011 at 11:36 pm said:
    In the one case, the allegations are multiple, widespread and from manifold sources while in the other all the allegations are one persons regurgitated under different names

    Sheila, on December 20, 2011 at 11:53 pm said:
    Mike, I repeat the questions because no one’s answering them.

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  1144. Sankappa, Behind the Thankas is NOT real evidence. One do not need to be an Einstein to see the incredibility.

    Are you writing also to RickRoss in the small circle of people nestling there in their ‘convenient’ lies? When somebody shed a real life light there, you become shocked? Go back to RickRoss, if you want to sleep. There you can chase away people simply by sending a message.

    “In the one case, the allegations are multiple, widespread”
    They are widespread and multiple ONLY where certain Journalist has shown her skills. Didn’t you notice that?

    Sheila’s question is VALID. In the Documentation In the Name of Enlightenment, I think all of those 3 women there are “off the road”:

    1. Mary Finnigan, her ethics are known

    2. Victria Barlow, her credibility can be questioned through S Trizin case (and other factors)

    3. “Mimi”, “Janine”: her story is BS, like I said people in Rigpa know those women – and YOU do not – and they can only tell you what kind of people those 8 women are.

    Do you believe: “we will have an orgy”, says 7 women to the reluctant Janine! Which woman likes orgies in real life? How many? It’s amazing co-incidence that those few women are also Buddhists. Let alone all working in Rigpa.

    I’ve only heard of Gay orgies, where they placed HIV with injections to the victims after they were drugged. Happened in the Netherlands a few years ago. Maybe there are a lot of orgies happening every where at this moment. It’s still incredible that those 7 women would have landed in Rigpa and found their marital spouses there.

    These points questions the motives of the core group. The “followers” probably go into a shock state, when one points these out, but it’s necessary.

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  1145. The best way to deal with these people (ie bella and sheila) is to ignore them. Do not get involved in “discussions” with them, as this is what they thrive on allowing them to air and vent their “arguments”. We know their agendas, they have become obvious and evident through their own posts. But for those who are not familiar here is a summary:

    bellaB – the jaded believer. Is in complete denial of any of Sogyal’s abuse. Her “evidence” is that her friends in Rigpa told her that everything is OK, and the real clincher, she herself has not seen anything going on.

    Sheila – conspiracy theorist, agent provocateur, one of devious and disingenuous agendas, or in common internet parlance, what’s known as a troll. Her tactics have been to undermine, distract and discredit those who are keeping the focus on Sogyal the abuser and his actions, all the while pretending to be here with the altruistic agenda of “objective research.” However, she finally outed herself with the comment, “I also disbelieve the allegations aganst Kalu Rinpoche, Sogyal Rinpoche, and HH the Karmapa.” There is now a suggestion that she may in fact be a troll for the PRC. It’s hard to know what the truth is with Sheila, but one thing you can be sure of is that she has darker intentions.

    By ignoring these two, it places the onus back on them to dispute with real evidence the latest claims of abuse by Sogyal in “Behind the Thangkas”. A job they have not been able to do so far. By engaging with them it only serves to give oxygen to their rhetorical and specious arguments.

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  1146. Removed: Off-topic

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  1147. Removed: Off-topic

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  1148. Removed: Off-topic

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  1149. Removed: Off-topic

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  1150. Btw, I have zero problem with removed office finding this site, because I think they well ought to know what is going on here and what type of slander is being allowed, even outright encouraged, on Dialogue Ireland and Rick Ross.

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  1151. Mr Garde, you have fostered the atmosphere in which this came up at all; plus, you do not remove Victoria Barlow’s libelous posts.

    I ask you again: why did you tolerate Victoria Barlow’s lengthy condemnation of removed, if you believe it isn’t true?

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  1152. Removed: Off-topic

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  1153. Removed: Off-topic

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  1154. Removed: Off-topic

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  1155. None of your diatribe answers any questions for new students coming to Dialogue Ireland to learn which teachers are safe.

    “Behind the Thangkas” is being linked to all over the web–both DI’s verison, and Mary’s original website.

    Victoria Barlow’s name is in this article; new people who look up her testimonies will find slander against removed–both here on Dialogue Ireland, and in Victoria’s and Mary’s earlier newsgroup posts.

    By posting this woman’s name loud and clear, DI is shining a huge spotlight on the alleged removed scandal. Yet – no one will disavow it. It’s almost as if you want it to happen.

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  1156. RickRoss seems to have a strange way to choose who they remove from discussion and who they don’t:

    “corboy
    Date Added: 06/19/2002
    Posts: 3313

    Re: Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche

    Creating discord between members of a productive team can be a way of ruining a discussion venue that has resisted earlier disruption by by trolls.

    To prevent the discord that has plagued Dialogue Ireland’s discussions of Sogyal,
    send PMs (private messages) from unfamiliar users to Rick Ross, if these seem peculiar in any way.”

    Seem peculiar? Those people discussing among themselves do not even seem to know Sogyal Rinpoche. Blue Dakini hasn’t met him for 4 decades and she invents stories that those people “follow”.

    They want to nestle themselves into some strange group of victimhood without being a victim, year after year. Therapy is the answer!

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  1157. PREVIOUSLY……….

    Speaking to Sheila. Guest, on December 16, 2011 at 8:41 pm said:
    “You are here simply to sew the seeds of controversy in whatever way you can. Your intent is to drag this all out as much as possible to increase the prominence of issues relating to Tibetan Buddhism and abuse so as to blacken the name of Tibetan religion, its leaders and its claims to national sovereignty”

    Then,after shed shut up for a moment, Occidental Intelligence, on December 20, 2011 at 1:06 pm said

    “Sheila, at least you have stopped repeatedly citing the names of prominent teachers along with phrases relating to abuse. Whether you are for or against the Tibetans, repeated use of such names alongside such terms only increases the probability of the teachers names being blackened by allegations because search engines merely look for key terms”

    In response, while appearing to question criticisms of a certain lama. and alongside the term ‘abused’ Sheila used the name of a prominent teacher three times,not even using initials. After having just been told that, regardless of affiliation, ‘repeated use of such names alongside such terms only increases the probability of the teachers names being blackened by allegations because search engines merely look for key terms,’ and ‘if you are a genuine supporter of the cause STOP POSTING THEIR NAMES NEXT TO THE WORDS ‘S##UAL A*USE’, Sheila did EXACTLY WHAT SHE HAD JUST BEEN TOLD WAS BAD FOR TIBET AND TIBETAN BUDDHISM

    It doesnt take a genius to work out what the agenda is here. When you tell someone very clearly its harmful to the Tibetan cause to repeat allegations against reputable Tibetan teachers, and that using their names alongside terms such as ‘ab**e’ only raises the profile of such allegations up the web because of the nature of search engines, if they respond by posting the names of said teachers alongside the same or similar key terms, they can pretend to be a sympathizer of the Tibetan cause all they want. Either Sheila is not very clever (apologies, I wanted to use a stronger term but will not contradict DIs policies), a ‘concern’ troll; a Chinese sympathiser or a Chinese spy. None of these bode well.

    DI, I believe it is high time that you put a stop to Sheila Shigley of Madison Wisconsin’s antics. Outed on Rick Ross as a troll, outed on the Tibetan forum Phayul as being involved in espionage and criticised widely across the web for her pro Chinese views, she has now found a new home for her Chinese government plan to blacken Tibetan Buddhisms name.

    Im all for freedom of speech, and freedom of religion, but how long do we tolerate this deliberate campaign by this Chinese raised, Chinese speaking prolific webcritic of the Dalai Lama et al? Those who tolerate the intolerant die by their swords. Block this womans comments;she is not an ‘interesting example of cult behaviour’ she is an abuser of free speech and an abuser of the Tibetan cause. Should Dialogue Ireland really be her platform?

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  1158. Further, her accusations against removed are still posted on Dialogue Ireland; why haven’t they been deleted, if what she’s saying is known by Dialogue Ireland to be untrue?

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  1159. Occidental,

    I never heard of Victoria Barlow until coming to Dialogue Ireland. She lists several Tibetan teachers whom she describes in lengthy, detailed stories as having abused her.

    Those of you who know which stories are correct, and which are not, should make that clear, because people who are not yet aware of this mess will not know which stories to believe.

    Victoria Barlow says Sogyal Rinpoche, removed, and several other Tibetans/Bhutanese abused her sexually. Anyone at all, including herself, and yourselves, who knows the real deal, would likely repair some damage this has caused by shedding light on the truth. I have never taken teachings from Sogyal Rinpoche or removed and have no way of knowing what to believe other than by listening to what people with direct experience say.

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  1160. liars and ingenious people – that is your point of view, and your point of view alone bella – you say that it’s backed up by people at rigpa. no surprise there. . I doubt you’ll find those whose lives have been destroyed hanging around do you?

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  1161. “Sheila, on December 19, 2011 at 10:18 pm said:
    BellaB did not out Mary as the author of Behind the Thankgas – Mary already did so on Rick Ross”

    MF posted a link to the document on RR, she did not claim authorship

    Sheila, at least you have stopped repeatedly citing the names of prominent teachers along with phrases relating to abuse. Whether you are for or against the Tibetans, repeated use of such names alongside such terms only increases the probability of the teachers names being blackened by allegations because search engines merely look for key terms, not whether authors are for or against allegations. So be more careful please, if you are a genuine supporter of the cause STOP POSTING THEIR NAMES NEXT TO THE WORDS ‘S##UAL A*USE’

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  1162. What kind of problems did I cause? I broke the article into 4 parts instead of 5. I did forgot somebody’s name in the title, which you – I guess – are able to edit away and replace it by:

    A View from a Parallel Universe
    A Response to blog Behind the Thankas

    My intention is to show how that blog can be read, critically. You can of course, since you don’t know anybody in Rigpa, see the blog as truth, but it’s blind.

    I still do not lie, I’m telling about my experience. Many people have already pointed out that a few others lie – and they happen to be on your side. If I ever find out something that would change my mind in the real world, I would post it here, definitely. I want to keep my record straight.

    Still, I wonder if Rigpa would bother to respond, since the blog is clearly outrageous (I would say mad). Why bother discussing with liars and ingenious people (the Thanka Blog people)? There will be just more mess.

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  1163. BellaB did not out Mary as the author of Behind the Thankgas – Mary already did so on Rick Ross.

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  1164. Did you not read that we offered this option to them. we do not need to email them, you do if you wish!

    Behind The Thangkas

    Dialogue Ireland has hosted a dossier which points to issues of sexual and inappropriate cultist behaviour involving women.

    BRIEFING DOCUMENT ON SOGYAL RINPOCHE

    We have also become aware of extreme teaching methods which are applied in seminars. We publish this in the knowledge that some may hold different views. We always allow contrary views as our comment section shows. However, we go beyond and will allow an official response from Rigpa to be published without censorship. Also if any individual in the body of this text feels a need to respond we will publish this in full following editorial scrutiny. Sexual assault, abuse, an imbalance of power and abuse of spiritual authority concerning Sogyal Rimpoche are all features of this article. Mike Garde Director Dialogue Ireland.

    This would be an example of the type of response we are looking for:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogyal_Rinpoche

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  1165. Thank you BellaB, I got it. In case we get cut off here for any reason, you can reach me at shigley AT gmail DOT com

    Removed: Off-topic

    Sorry to use this for a contact method, DI, but I didn’t know how else to reach BellaB.

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  1166. DI Moderation:

    Dear Bella b,

    We have discussed your document with our editorial committee, here is our considered response:
    Basically, the piece by you is neither academic nor journalistic, from either perspective it is not a refutation of the Sogyal Thangka piece. It is merely a mixture of denials and personal attacks, with a few testimonials thrown in for good measure. It is therefore not really worthy of being defined as a response but is rather one side and does not advance what you have already put on the blog. Also your personal attacks on Mary Finnigan would not stand. Also you have concluded that MF is the source of our article, when I told in my first response we do not name our sources. By trying to out her here you undermine the case for you being treated anonymously. We have no intention of revealing your identity, but now it will not be necessary as we will not proceed with publication of your document. In fact when we put up a new policy last week you immediately attacked MF which shows you are not genuinely involved in dialogue.
    We had hoped Rigpa themselves would respond with something along the lines of an attempted logical deconstruction of the Thangka document, something which would certainly be worthy of considering a mature and considered response. This however, is not really much more than what you have said a hundred times over already-and that certainly has done nothing to help Rigpa’s case.

    We note your silence since you sent us this document. If you use our refusal to attempt to cause problems on the blog we will publish this response to give people background, but still guarding your anonymity.
    We would suggest that you break up the document into five different comments and publish it as as comments. We are not trying to censor you but we do not believe this constitutes a proper response to the article.

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  1167. I didn’t mention certain person purposefully in my response. It’s a mistake.

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  1168. Since you want Rigpa to send a response, you could just email them. Provocation is the point of the blog, isn’t it?

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  1169. This is MY response, it’s not a response from Rigpa.

    I edited my own mistakes from my text. Did you ever study another language? It’s not necessarily easy to remember how to write each word correctly, but there is Word correction tool, which helps.

    I can’t show my friends face here spelling out for me that those women mentioned in the Janine section do not belong to a harem. He knows them. I can only say so much here.

    I tried to show what I see critically in those stories. Janine-department can be forgotten completely. SR is quite active character and I can’t imagine him BEGGING some woman for sex for 6 hours, lying on a bed! If I was a woman in a situation that I didn’t feel comfortable, I would have slowly gathered my strength and walked away (in less than 6 hours). Even if someone tries to coerce you to do something, in 6 hours there are gaps when the voice of the woman must have said loud inside her: NO!

    How did you like the interpretation of the Marianne article? Poor man was humiliated by Sogyal Rinpoche remaining silent – and SR stopped making jokes? I think that is a very good example: we can all see how the forming of an idea has evolved from the original article: totally twisted.

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  1170. Sorry bella, but this is basically the same vitriolic nonsense youve been posting here for the last two years. Denials, nasty comments about critics, weak attempts at humour and a few glowing testimonials You might as well have cut and pasted all your different posts together and stuck them here (Oh I forgot, youve already done that) I also note the complete disregard for the guidelines set by DI concerning personal attacks-you even claim the Thangkas document is M Finnigans: that is a personal attack since you do not know this to be true.

    The allegations against Sogyal are manifold, detailed and from various sources. A short piece of badly edited(someone has clearly tried to tidy this up for you but their English is not very good) vitriol interspersed with denials by someone who can never possibly see any wrong in their saviour guru hardly merit the title ‘Response’. Where are the refutations of the allegations? (‘No he didnt’ isnt a refutation) Where are the explanations of why, despite the claims that Sogyal is a sexual abuser of the worst kind being all over the press, no legal response has been forthcoming? Indeed, why has there never been any attempt by Sogyal to legally clear his name. humility or fear of publicity?Could it be that the allegations are true?

    These are the sort of questions a refutation should address and these are the very questions you havent answered, indeed your response answers none. If this is the best Rigpa can do, then I suspect that your flimsy contribution will only add fuel to the flames rather than extinguishing them

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  1171. Other testimonies from people he has helped

    For me personally it seems contradictory and hard to put two pictures together. I have met only people Sogyal Rinpoche has helped. I met Sogyal Rinpoche for the first time on a weekend teaching. I was quite active from the beginning and did want to find out about the nature of this ‘religion’. I had read Rinpoche’s book and it alone convinced me, but I still was not open to become part of some weird cult, if this happened to be one. I talked with one woman who had had suffered from depression and she told me that “he has shown me who I really am, and for that I’m really grateful”. My first contact with a Rigpa person was with someone who had suffered and who had found help, hope in her life.

    I have been visiting Rigpa every year for the past 10 years. At times I have spent weeks or over a month there. I have been in Ireland too, which is my favorite retreat place. Mostly I visit Lerab Ling where the Temple is and where Sogyal Rinpoche lives. Since I’ve been there so many times I have become familiar with all those main workers and have spoken with some of them. My best friend works there for many months a year, he knows quite well those people – and as I have said before – Rigpa is no gossip free zone in the world.

    In the article Janine mostly talks about lama kitchen. There are many more working areas in Rigpa – not just a lama kitchen. There is a Care Program, which includes many therapists, who work with people. During the three year retreat there were many who shared the work with 300 retreatants. Not every retreatant needs therapy and Rigpa is not fundamentally offering therapy as their focus, but there is a certain quite strong emphasize toward healing. We practice Ngöndro and especially Vajrasattva has a strong emphasize in Sogyal Rinpoche’s teachings. Many might think Guru Yoga (and misunderstand it as lama forship) and Mandala Offering (and again misunderstand that gaining riches is the reason for it) would be central Rigpa practices. I really want to emphasize that healing is in the front line. Many Tibetan Buddhist lamas notice that people are not feeling mentally well in the West, with worries and stress, so they recommend psychological work first, before one hires the assassin for their ego.

    There is the kitchen, which has many functions: food for retreats are made. Then there is the lama kitchen, which makes food not only for Sogyal Rinpoche but for his elderly mother, his son, the past Khandro Rinpoche, visiting lamas and many other people who permanently live in Lerab Ling.

    I heard about the accusations during my first or second year in Rigpa. I was shocked of course, like many people here, when they come across this kind of rumors. Then I decided to speak with one of the attendants who I felt I could relate to. She said she had heard about the accusations too, some years ago. She hadn’t confronted him about those things, but she said what she had done, which was to “check out the lama”. She decided to keep her eyes open. At some point she had the experience of the nature of the mind, which confirmed to her that she was dealing with an authentic lama. After that she decided to go ahead with the path and committed herself to work for Sogyal Rinpoche. She had suffered from abuse when she was a young, so she was also really careful about those matters. Ever since then she has worked closely with Sogyal Rinpoche and never was faced with issues regarding abuse of females. Sogyal Rinpoche of course knows her past and is very fatherly with her, like he is with others too, and protects her from fear by comforting her and explaining things as they are, – in public, so I have seen it happen. Since I have spoken with her, I pay attention to her treatment by Sogyal Rinpoche.

    I have spoken to other women too. Someone who has been there for 30 years told me she used to work as his masseur. Sogyal Rinpoche never harassed her in any way and she is still working in Rigpa in different fields. She knew Sogyal Rinpoche’s girlfriends too – and she has never seen them treated badly or hear them complaining.

    In Dialogue Ireland two courageous female students have written their posts (‘Sogyal Rinoche is Amazing’, July 5th, 2009, and ‘Survivor’, July 6th, 2009). In the stories one can also sense the protective fatherly attitude Sogyal Rinpoche has shown towards his students. Of course there are more positive statements, but since people in Rigpa know Finnigan’s agenda, they consider it a wasted effort to write here. I’m the only fool trying to bring another side of the story here. I’m not doing it in order to change Finnigan’s mind, I can see that is a complete waste of human resources. Let’s see in the future lives, if her mind changes.

    ‘Sogyal Rinpoche is Amazing’ has known Sogyal Rinpoche for 25 years. “On occasion I have travelled with him, he has frequently stayed in my home and to this day I consider him one of the most compassionate, wise and amazing buddhist masters I have ever met. I have had the unbelievable good fortune to have studied with many of the greatest masters including masters such as Kyabjé Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Kyabjé Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, and of course His Holiness the Dalai Lama. All of them spoke very highly of Sogyal Rinpoche and encouraged me to study with him. In all the time I have known him I have never seen him do anything to anyone for vulgar, selfish gain. However, I have seen him perform inspiring, selfless acts of kindness and charity helping people and showing them how to live better, healthier and more productive lives. “
    Survivor’s story: “When I began to study with Sogyal Rinpoche about 17 years ago, I was a young woman who had been considered especially attractive since being a young girl. It’s a bit awkward to say something like that about oneself – but here I just want you to know where I was coming from: being a beautiful young woman also meant to constantly have predators around and having to be on guard.

    And I was especially on guard, because I had been badly traumatized. As a child – actually I had been brutally gang-raped at age 8. Needless to say that I had grown extra sensitive antennas to any sexual vibes coming towards me and always erring on the side of feeling threatened. On top of that, my father had been quite abusive and I grew up with a constant fear of abusive males in general.

    So At the age of 23 I had already had one mixed experience with a Buddhist group. But after attending a talk by Sogyal Rinpoche in Berlin I knew I wanted to study further with him. In a short time I became quite close to him, often spending periods of time alone with him in my home and other places. If Sogyal Rinpoche had even remotely resembled an abusive sexual predator, I would have smelled that right away and left feeling sorry for his students.
    But instead I haven’t felt unsafe around him for a single instant. No one has ever shown such profound respect for me nor treated me with more love and kindness. Just through this, Rinpoche disarmed my patterns of shame and self-hate again and again. Having a keen sense of what each individual needs, he has always been especially gentle with me, allowing me to heal in my own time. And – just in case you were wondering I was never his lover.

    Sogyal Rinpoche saved and healed my life with his wisdom and kindness. He constantly inquired about why I was so fearful and in pain all the time – and then he didn’t get tired of showing me ways to heal, until I truly got it.”

    In real life I have only encountered similar stories of healing and hope.

    A Buddhist who doesn’t respect anyone

    The author most likely calls herself a Buddhist, but very often she criticizes the judgement of HHDL and other teachers who associate with Sogyal Rinpoche. She is said to be a student of Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, who actually supports Sogyal Rinpoche. If she was able to ask advice from Namkhai Norbu, I wonder what kind of response she would get.

    As a Tibetan Buddhist the author looks at Tibetan Buddhism from exceptionally critical and one-eyed view. I don’t mean people should be blind and expect a miracle world – the Shangri-la that herself has experienced in her youth – to appear. People are people, even the Tibetans – and we should have patience with each other and our selves. But there is another view about the human condition that Tibetan Buddhism can reveal to us, which we do not have in the Western culture. Sogyal Rinpoche himself doesn’t support new age hippie stuff, he wants to ground people and doesn’t want them to “go off”.

    Journalistic ethics

    “In October 2011 the French news magazine Marianne carried a six page feature on one of Sogyal’s teaching retreats at Lerab Ling. It was compiled from material gathered by an undercover journalist, Elodie Emery. The tone of the reportage alternates from coy to sarcastic to ‘shock horror’ and contains allegations which would not get past legal scrutiny at mainstream British media.” Mary had her chance in self-expression through Emery by telling her in advance how to see things. Now she still has to invent an extra story: “his ruthlessly cruel treatment of one participant, who was stumbling towards an agonised confession in front of 500 retreatants”. The real story in Marianne goes like this:

    “The people present in the room choke with laughter at these tips illuminated with wisdom. But the session takes an expected turn when the man starts talking about what provokes his wife’s wrath: “I have worked for 25 years with mentally handicapped children. One day, I abused my position with one of them.” The audience squirms with embarrassment. “I told my wife, and that’s why she puts terrible pressure on me, she is terrified about the possibility of me abusing our 4 year old daughter.” In answer to this the master chooses to remain silent. He has run out of jokes.”

    The author just can’t keep to the facts – not even in a text she herself has translated from French! This is a textual example of her methods of constructing stories. Unbelievable!

    “In 2011 Sogyal’s sex life came under mainstream media scrutiny again” the author writes. I wished she was a bit more honest and added: “…because of me and my writings.”

    The Big Question

    The very important question when we evaluate the work of Sogyal Rinpoche is that is he working for his personal gain, like the author claims, or is he here to help beings? I believe my own eyes and the people around me. I believe the encouragement of various lamas who happen to know Sogyal Rinpoche personally. I will not succumb to think that being a Buddhist is way of a low life and people who practice it are all self-serving bastards. I do believe there are many different people and we are all humans at the end of the day. What has brought us all into Buddhism, is the recognition of suffering, wanting to remove suffering and help sentient beings to gain liberation. I’m confident Sogyal Rinpoche is aware of this basic Buddhist principle and that is the motivation behind his actions.

    Pseudonyms are used to protect some individuals. Their words are on record and their identities are known. :=)

    Sources:
    Dialogue Ireland posts
    ThomasKent (pseudonym), Rick Ross, http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,100679,page=2
    Real life

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  1172. Mental abuse

    The old story was the sexual abuse, but since there seem not to be too many victims (that would fill the Royal Albert Hall) the critics have gone for something else. Now it’s mental abuse or financial abuse. Two years ago he was still “an alcoholic, porn viewer, over eating fat sleazeball” according to critics.

    Sogyal Rinpoche has many skills. He is not only a great teacher who can reach many people, which means having a lot of experience and psychological understanding. He is also skilled in visual arts, calligraphy. What puzzle people mostly, is his not so saintly outlook and his management skills. It seems like people have gotten used to divide different skills between different people and it’s somehow incomprehensible when there are multitalented people. There was Leonardo da Vinci, but such multitalented people can’t exist today, can they? How many people in top of the business world are just single talented? How come Dzongsar Khyentse is able to make movies? He is supposed to be a Buddhist teacher.

    “He was a slave driver”, says one squatter, Jack, “he had us working flat out, restoring the house, building a shrine, putting up shelves and so on – while he sat around directing operations.” Of course he is. In no Buddhist organization the teacher and not in Christian church the priest is doing the brickwork. How ridiculous this has to be? People worked voluntarily and they were paid.

    Anonymous person, who visited Rigpa and wrote in DI is alarmed: “I couldn’t help thinking that if he’s really a Vajra Master why does he need to follow a precise order of events? Why are the prepared readings and video excerpts so important? I really think there’s something else going on.” There is something else going on. Well noticed. It’s a shame the person didn’t stay long enough to know what it is all about.

    Sogyal Rinpoche has an overall vision about a situations, he is able to see very quickly to the point of things. He has been teaching also business people how to work more efficiently. I guess it has to do with being present and being able to cut to the point. If one’s mind is all over the place, one is blurry and can’t be present in the moment, it’s not a conducive state for anything. Being strict with students, demanding presence is part of the training where he points out the weakness in a practical manner. Remember, that he knows his workers quite well. There are people who have made a life choice: they have left ordinary Samsaric working life and they have decided to be in the presence of the Master. If he allowed them to sit back and continue as they were, what would be the use of that life change?

    Buddhist teachings are about getting rid of the ego. There are different methods for removing that self, so that the nature of mind can dawn from within. One could practice Theravadan method, meditation, but the Tantric and especially Dzogchen are considered faster methods. If one has tried Tantric visualization and it has worked, the person is convinced of the effect. If one hasn’t tried then there’s nothing much to argue there. People seem to know awfully lot about Dzogchen methods, and claim to have authority to criticize Dzogchen Masters. At the end of the day, there has to be devotion – and if there isn’t a connection between teacher and the student, it just doesn’t work. There will always then be a cap, a lack of understanding that can’t be explained away. It’s almost like somebody trying to explain a cat that they should become vegetarians. Then people by their own standards criticize others who have a deep connection, deep devotion and they have a path ahead of them. It just doesn’t make sense to criticize others, but of course people are entitled to their own experiences and opinions.

    Blocking away the other side, the reality

    The author has shown many times insensitivity towards other people. She blocks away information that disturbs the image she is fighting hard to paint. She said after ThomasKent (in RickRoss forum) had cleared her mistakes in various matters that she claims as facts: “We must live in parallel universes!”

    ThomasKent (Nov 6th, 2011) corrected her about the author of the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying: In the Blog it is claimed Sogyal Rinpoche didn’t write the book but Andrew Harwey and Patrick Gaffney did, even though in reality they merely edited the public teachings that the book was based on. It is also claimed that Sogyal Rinpoche is unable to read Tibetan. The fact is that his reading is perfect and he works as a head of the translation team Lotsawa House that is working with many Tibetan Buddhist texts. The widely sold Rigpa Calendar has his eloquent calligraphy all over the place. The Tibetan font used in the Calendar is designed and written by him. He has said he learnt painting calligraphy in his childhood. Calligraphy is part of his esthetic skills that can be seen influencing the many Rigpa publications.

    “Ever since then, allegations around his private life, financial affairs and credentials as a lama have surfaced from disillusioned former disciples.” Fortunately we have practicing Buddhists who disagree with her and her ‘friends’ who ever those people are. Those people who work in the office and are in the highest positions in Rigpa organization, have been there for decades. Finnigan’s friends never worked in the management department of Rigpa. How could they know a thing? They can’t. In Rigpa there are Western people working – and those people know where the money is going. It goes to bills, salaries, offerings to very poor monasteries in India and elsewhere and to visiting lamas, like Namkhai Norbu. Of course a person with a poverty mentality would foremost feel deprived when some poor nunnery in Manali gets a little support.

    The author claims such events have taken place: “Sogyal was at Merigar some years ago. I hear that this visit went down like a lead balloon. Apparently he had about 5 people at his *teachings* (plagiarised from ChNN and other lamas) and they were so banal he was laughed off the premises. I don’t have feedback on this latest one yet — but it will happen in due course. When it does I will post again here.” (Pema, September 22nd, 2009). Plagiarized from ChNN? I thought that Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and Sogyal Rinpoche didn’t spend much time together in the early days. Somebody also taught Dzogchen to Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. Others, like Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche, taught Sogyal Rinpoche. That is how the lineage is formed, or did you also skip that particular point about Tibetan Buddhism too? Teachings originate from past and continue from one generation to another.

    “She makes the claim that Chögyal Namkhai Norbu knows everything about the allegations around Sogyal Rinpoche and therefore shuns him”, writes Let’s be fair (July 10th, 2009). Obviously it wasn’t as bad since Sogyal Rinpoche was invited to teach at Dzogchen Community again. This August (2011) Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche taught in Rigpa.“Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche has said more than once in my presence that Sogyal Rinpoche is a fully qualified Dzogchen master.” Said ThomasKent in response to her claims. This picture of Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and Sogyal Rinpoche doesn’t need explanation: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Image:Sogyal_R_Namkhai_Norbu_R.jpg

    The author bases her opinions about Sogyal Rinpoche’s skills to teach Dzogchen: a friend of hers who has been in Rigpa didn’t have any experience of nature of mind. Having an experience is not an automatic event, a service you will receive after you’ve paid the retreat fee. Having an experience requires devotion and other circumstances in order to happen. One can’t naively blame the teacher for their own lack of practice, devotion and so forth. I think it is quite self-important to claim to know the level of any lama’s realization – especially when one hasn’t even been in the presence of said person for 4 decades.

    “I am confident that the journalistic treatment I am currently undertaking, together with a book project, will be effective in taking Sogyal out of circulation as a teacher and denying him access to his sexual hunting grounds.” (July 6th, 2009.) She thinks that Sogyal Rinpoche teaches for the purpose of getting laid. He has a vast vision, not limited to what the author is able to comprehend – unfortunately she takes herself too seriously. Students ask the teacher to teach, not the other way around, remember? Buddhism is not an obligatory subject at school.

    Now Western Buddhist lama Ngakpa Chogyam has been dragged into the filth. His own group has been criticized for inauthentic lineage and teachings, but it seems like they have settled into their own practice nowadays. It still seems easy to start siding with someone who criticizes Ethnic Tibetans Buddhist teachers, but quite unwise, unless the comment was made decades ago. Recently a Tibetan lama said that one mark of an authentic teacher is the fact that they don’t talk badly about other teachers.

    “Ngakpa Chogyam also became aware of gaps in Sogyal’s knowledge: “He asked me a lot of questions about Dzogchen”, he says, “and I was surprised by the way he’d enquire – almost, I thought at the time, as if he didn’t know the answers. I ended up talking a lot when we were alone together – but it occurred to me later that he never asked questions like this when anyone else was around.” It didn’t occur to Ngakpa Chogyam, who is not Ethnic Tibetan, that the lamas question students of their knowledge? It is a common way of checking the students. Since Ngakpa Chogyam hasn’t been invited to teach in Rigpa, it might indicate something, or the not (I’m not aware of any reasons). Did Ngakpa Chogyam already then state that he is a teacher himself, authorized by Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche? Authorization was a false claim and for the claim he has been widely criticized himself. Today they no longer make the claim, so there’s no reason to debate about it, but I want to bring it to the awareness, so that people can consider reason for siding with a such a Blog.

    “You have some silly stuff about Sogyal Rinpoche’s teacher Kyabjé Dudjom Rinpoche allegedly “suggesting he give up teaching for a while and return to India to ‘ripen his practice’.” Kyabjé Dudjom Rinpoche would never make public his personal practice advice to any of his students let alone one of his close Tulku disciples like Sogyal Rinpoche. It isn’t even a cultural probability. This story is just someone’s fabricated spin. Sogyal Rinpoche remained one of Kyabjé Dudjom Rinpoche’s close disciples and continued to serve him even after Rigpa was established. To this day Rinpoche receives frequent counsel from Kyabjé Dudjom Rinpoche’s Sangyum (wife) and enjoys close relations with other members of the family. They would laugh if they heard this ridiculous claim. “ Wrote someone who has known Sogyal Rinpoche for 25 years (‘Sogyal Rinpoche is Amazing’, July 5th, 2009.)

    Even the said victims do not hold special meaning in her mind. Even though she has claimed to hold a dossier of personal stories by sexually abused victims, she can still say things like this:
    “Hi Kapasi, If all the women came forward they’d fill the Royal Albert Hall…
    And imagine what will happen to S in the bardos…all those screeching harpies….” (Pema, August 27th, 2009.)

    This is meant as a joke but on the other hand reveals her thinking. For me it seems this is almost as entertainment to her, not at all serious. I think it is also an indication that she doesn’t know any of those claimed victims, because they are too abstract for her and she can jokingly call them “harpies”.

    Now in the Thanka Blog the girl called Janine, Mimi in the ‘documentary’, obviously, reveals that she is part of Sogyal Rinpoche’s harem. Girls are said to have been sexually harassed, strange games are being played. They are supposedly washing him and wiping his ass. The whole story is like from a cheap movie, so cheap that I wouldn’t bother to look.

    The author said the “Brains” behind Rigpa is Patrick, but in this new sequence written by Janine (must be the 4th season in the series) he is the dumb “cuckold”, boyfriend, whose woman is abused. This series is getting more interesting as the seasons develop.

    The Three Year Retreat. Gerard claims: “We were not allowed to talk” he says,“but we found ways to communicate.” “As a result some of the 200 people present also left the retreat – some shocked at the revelation, others realising that their pre-existing doubts were well founded.“ In reality NOBODY left the retreat, except him. There were only 300 people in the first place.

    There are many workers in Rigpa – and I doubt they all are wearing a blind-fold. There is the office with the administration, the reception, the ordinary kitchen for retreat food. There are the people who work with the teachings and texts. There’s also the documentation team: transcribing people and the people who video films everything. There’s a huge archive. There’s translation team, which works with texts. There are people who plan retreats and events. There are people who create graphic design. There are people responsible for the buildings, the Temple and the garden. There are dozens of positions and areas where people work, not only the lama kitchen.

    Lerab Ling is a calm place and there’s no way happening any parties and Harem Orgies. In the past, at times, there were parties where retreatants could socialize, but no much more. In one of those parties I recall Sogyal Rinpoche coming to stop the party, because of the noise at late night (before 1 am).

    During the summer time the retreats are happening non-stop. Sogyal Rinpoche teaches during 99% of the days and retreat programs require a lot of work from everybody. There are also other events and projects that Rinpoche needs to take care of, like Tenzin Gyatso Institute, visiting Lamas and Buddhist events outside Rigpa. I wonder how he could have time for the extra-curriculum activities described.

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  1173. The Author of the Behind the Thankas Blog

    I have focused here on the author and her blog Behind the Thankas, because I think the blog is nonsense. Let’s put down some facts: the author, who was drawn to famous people like David Bowie and other stars, met Sogyal Rinpoche in his youth, during the 70’s. After that she has had no contact with him at all. She has claimed having tried to contact Sogyal Rinpoche several times for an interview. This can’t be verified now, but I have spoken with some of the main people in Rigpa and they have told me they have tried to communicate with her many times, unsuccessfully. Since I know the slanderous and dishonest style she writes, I wouldn’t wonder if Sogyal Rinpoche refuses to give her an interview.

    How one forms an opinion about somebody when one hasn’t met the person for 4 decades, like the author hasn’t? She has heard heresay by people who have written to her or she has met them. How have I formed my opinion about her, whom I have never met in my life? I have read her writings in the newspapers and in different blogs and forums. This is the outcome.

    The author is very sure about her view on Sogyal Rinpoche and his motivation. But could one in reality say they know somebody well when they haven’t met the person for 4 decades and probably even in the 70’s they were not very close? Is it possible? At least I can say about myself that I was quite different when I was 10, 20, 30 and 40 years of age. She has said here and elsewhere that she holds a thick dossier of people who have been sexually abused by Sogyal Rinpoche. She states her goal and shares her ideals with 30 people.

    “There are now more than 30 people willing to join forces to make sure that Sogyal is taken out of circulation as a teacher effectively and permanently.” This means that instead of the thick dossier, there are 30 people who did not like Sogyal Rinpoche’s teaching and style. I bet there are many more, since he is a very provocative teacher. That is part of being a Dzogchen Master. Can’t get away with that. Many people do not enjoy the rough ride, when the Master places a mirror in front of them. It simply isn’t pleasurable to see one selves hidden traits.

    “Sogyal could not have scaled the giddy heights without the help of his long-term right-hand man Patrick Gaffney”, says the author: “Some former insiders, like the journalist Mary Finnigan, go further: “Patrick is the real brains behind Rigpa,” she says, “Sogyal is merely the public persona.” She surely is an old former “insider”, now she is an outsider who has no idea and no idea of what is going on. Patrick respects Sogyal Rinpoche deeply and he knows a lot better than the author the reasons for this respect. Sogyal Rinpoche is not just a public persona, he is the holder and the leader of it all. If you arrived in a strange country wouldn’t it be best to seek advice from the locals, how to manage there?

    “In the winter of 1973 Sogyal turned up in London, announcing that he wanted to set up a centre where teachings could be given by some of the great Tibetan meditating yogis. Around this time he met Patrick Gaffney and another faithful acolyte, Dominique Side.” These people, Patrick Gaffney, the “brains” as the author calls him, and Dominique Side, a published author (unlike some former journalist friends of hers), have deep devotion toward Sogyal Rinpoche. Since they stuck around, they have reaped the benefits of knowing such master and received the blessings of the lineage. Could it be that envious outsiders now want to reject their own past chances in the 70’s and humiliate others?

    “According to Mary Finnigan, Sogyal already had a reputation as a playboy with a penchant for pretty girls when he arrived in London.” Which young man wouldn’t have sexual appetite and also adventurous nature? At least I had, when I was young – and I’m a Western woman. I also heard that women practically threw themselves at him, if they had a chance. One of these women was Victoria Barlow, who is constantly referred to and who is one of the main speakers for the cause.

    Informants

    The author seems to have found writings in the Internet that she refers to. Quite a few are posts written during the past two years in Dialogue Ireland. She is referring to these people as authentic informants, so I might as well refer to other anonymous persons in the Internet forums. The ones who have given their name or face in the documentary “In the name of Enlightenment Sex Scandal in Religion”, I do not consider reliable.

    “Yet in 1994 an American woman known as Janice Doe sued Sogyal for sexual assault and battery.” This case has been settled. No one knows what has happened. We have only Victoria Barlow’s words echoing the story, but are her words trustworthy? The lawyer of the Janice Doe was the husband of the Zen priestess, who wanted to pursue the court case for Janice Doe. Many think she had an agenda: Tibetan Buddhism attracted more followers than her Zen Buddhist courses. Even in this conversation here, there are Theravada Buddhism supporters demonizing Dzogchen and Tantric methods. “Professors Thurman and Simmer-Brown depicted them as western teachers with dubious motivation who are jealous of the Asian teachers. I have never heard of any mainstream Tibetan Master claiming that Sogyal Rinpoche was a fraud or otherwise unqualified.” (Let’s be fair.)

    “The glorification of Sogyal suffered a serious setback and in order to silence Janice Doe, Rigpa was forced to part with a large sum of money. Just how much money was involved in the out-of-court settlement is a closely guarded secret, but it is alleged to run into millions of dollars.” Here the author goes again. Alleged by whom? Where can we verify that ANY amount has been paid – and to whom? If she wrote 50$ was paid, we would think the harm done was very small, but since she writes MILLIONS of dollars, we are truly convinced a great tragedy had occurred. She keeps on coming up with “millions” because she has an agenda: removing Sogyal Rinpoche out of circulation. But it’s not her, fortunately, who determines if Sogyal Rinpoche teaches. There are the other thousands who ask him to teach.

    She has justified her view on Sogyal Rinpoche for a long time through a testimony of Victoria Barlow. Victoria has not only claimed of having had sexual relationship with Sogyal Rinpoche, but also with His Holiness Sakya Trizin. According to her writings in the Internet forums she wasn’t satisfied with either of them, since she ended up talking about her private life in public. Both of the teachers were “grounting” during sex, she says. Talking about one’s private life in public might be an indicator of a person without boundaries, which is quite common trait among those that have been sexually abused as children. Victoria has claimed innocence in her story: she as a student came to talk about Buddhism with a lama. “I went to an apartment to see a highly esteemed lama to discuss religion”, she said, “he opened the door without a shirt on and with a can of beer in his hand.” Once they were on the sofa, Barlow continued, “Sogyal lunged at me with sloppy kisses and groping. I thought I should take it as a compliment so I surrendered to him – but it had a horrible effect on me and caused a lot of depression.“ Depression is the aftermath of sexually abused children and as adults some seek new partners in order to get rid of the depression, but in fact it leads to more depression and in some cases to sexual addiction, if the person doesn’t seek treatment.

    I have serious doubts about that particular view on the events described by Barlow, since she also claims that Sogyal Rinpoche was borrowing her mother’s phone card. A regular student doesn’t borrow one’s phone card to Sogyal Rinpoche. I also believe the following comment is Victoria describing, how she met one other informant, Deidre or Janine. It clearly indicates she considers herself a girlfriend, not a student. Their relationship happened (if it happened at all) when Sogyal Rinpoche was under 30 years of age, in the 70’s.

    “I have been in contact with Mary Finnigan for a number of years now and have given my permission for her to use my statement of my experience of Rigpa and Sogyal under a pseudonym, Last year she brought to my house the young woman mentioned above who told me of her own time as an attendant “dakini” to Sogyal. I was profoundly shocked. Her account rang true because I had been a girlfriend of Sogyal’s many years ago and knew what he could be like and how the devoted students of Sogyal would cover up his behaviour.” (Tiger Lily, July 6, 2009.)

    Mary Finnigan has been part of making the documentary “In the name of Enlightenment Sex Scandal in Religion” where she propagates her ideas. She has two female friends there: Victoria Barlow has agreed to join her. The other one is a young woman, who uses pseudonyms “Mimi” on the video and “Janine” on the Behind the Thankas blog. I haven’t seen the whole documentary, which has only been broadcasted on Christian based TV stations. On the video Barlow shows the innocent face of an unsuspecting “student” visiting her lama. I don’t know if her motivation is caused by anger that the relationship didn’t last or anger from childhood traumas.

    Let’s continue with “Deidre”. Deidre claims that Sogyal Rinpoche was begging her to have sex with him for six hours – and he was lying in his bed all the time! Which one of you, who have met Sogyal Rinpoche, believes he would act in this way? “He ground me down”, she says, “it was the same thing over and over – Do you love me? Do you trust me? It must have gone on for about six hours. Eventually I was exhausted and gave up resisting. The whole thing revolved around surrender to him and I was scared of losing the opportunity to heal my family.” I think a woman who lasted in resisting the sex for 6 hours, could have as well walked away. Unbelievable story, I must say.

    “Dierdre was told by Rigpa devotees that if you have negative feelings, you destroy your relationship with the guru.” I have NEVER heard anybody telling me anything like that in Rigpa. And gosh, I have had my fair share of projections toward him! I can feel what ever I feel in Rigpa. That is part of the whole thing. If you are not allowed to feel and think what you want, how can you heal, how can you evolve spiritually? Where is all the understanding? Who ‘Buddhist’ invents these stories?

    “I only left the house to go to the teachings, where I saw 500 people prostrating themselves to the lama. The rest of the time I listened to him on tape, saying things like ‘pray to me, see me as the Buddha, love me, trust me, be obedient to me’“ That doesn’t sound like a Rigpa tape! Rigpa tapes are teachings – not begging some “guru” to worship himself… I don’t know who still believes these stories? This is ridiculous – and I’m not afraid to say it, because this is so ridiculous that I don’t believe this woman exists.

    “Mimi” is a name that the young woman uses on a video. There is in reality a real Mimi working in Rigpa, so I think it was an intentional choice of pseudonym. Now in the blog her name has been changed into “Janine”, which is close to Janice Doe – a clever choice again. We might be fooled into thinking there are more than one young female. When reading her description of events one can notice many things that are not a facts but invented stories. I don’t even bother to repeat the Harlequin stories.

    “Indoctrination into the inner circle is designed as a life sentence. A young, vulnerable woman is programmed to accept Sogyal’s god-like status and to be compliant with his wishes and whims, slave-like in her willingness to accept a punishing workload and available for sex on demand. She is separated from her family and friends, discouraged from contact with the outside world and persuaded to see Rigpa as her family, with Sogyal (confusingly as father-lover) in absolute power and control.”

    “In the majority of cases, it works.” Do you believe it works? Are you a bit naive? Someone, who has this sort of ideas, must be a bit imbalanced. I have seen many family members of workers and nuns visiting Rigpa.

    “By the time these women realise they are being abused and exploited and are deeply embedded in a coercive cult, it is too late for them to extricate themselves. Their investment is total and their chances of making lives for themselves beyond Rigpa have dwindled into non-existence.” How weak do you think people are? They can always leave if they suffer! There are psychologists who work in Rigpa, who would help! If a woman is so much in pain, she runs away, eventually. There would be many Janines, every year! Remember the circulation of women is constant, as it is claimed: filling The Royal Albert Hall.

    Janine, 22 years old, was “Determined to take every opportunity to be close to him (her father!), Janine started attending Sogyal’s teachings with her father – usually falling asleep against his back. Inevitably Sogyal’s lasciviously roving eye alighted on Janine and in due course she was lured into the brainwashing process that leads to his bedroom.” This description of a girl falling to sleep on her father’s back sounds like someone 12-year old! Who 22-year old is not leading her own life with studies, friends and boyfriend and so on – but sleeping against her daddy’s back in Buddhist teachings! Poor thing. But then later she takes her distance to her father (must be the approaching puberty!) as she takes her place in the Mad Harem – and the father has no clue! Amazing.

    Fortunately one of those young women who work in the lama kitchen today, has her mother living and working in Lerab Ling. The mother is a therapist in Rigpa – and I doubt she would be as blind to her daughter’s destiny as Janine’s father was. The mother has been around for decades and she knows all secrets in and out since she treats quite many people.

    The Behind the Thankas episode is just really madly inventive. I think Sogyal Rinpoche prefers Thankas better than girlie pictures. Where would he need girlie pictures if he had “an orgy with his harem”?
    “Dakinis who were in the harem (eight female names, known persons in Rigpa) before Janine’s arrival gradually came to accept her as a team member. Eventually they announced that she should join them in an orgy. Janine was not keen.” They announced it with one mouth? Only Janine was not keen. Is it a Harlequin book or what she has been reading? These people are really not a group, you know? They have their own busy lives, different working areas and men in their lives. Instead of drawing pictures I think Janine should write Harlequin books: the terrible dark Beast kept us Princesses in a chamber of evils….

    The thing about writing anonymously about people you mention by their name, is pretty cowardice. Who would do such a thing? Somebody who doesn’t want to be sued for libel? Or some young childish girl?

    What sexually transmitted infection can be healed with yellow fluid? I’m sorry, I just don’t know.

    Janine is revealing: “After this a lot of important Rigpa people called me. There were all sorts of threats and I heard that men were claiming I’d slept with them and were calling me a whore. But they should know that Sogyal is very possessive about the women he likes – he only lets the ones he wants to get rid off sleep with other men. I know now that many of the things he does are punishable by law. I am not afraid of him”.

    Men in Rigpa are the kindest gentlemen one can find on this Earth. Nobody is calling women “whores”. People have their own relationships and they are not offered “left overs” from Sogyal Rinpoche. This Janine must have some severe psychological condition and I think it has been there before she has even met Sogyal Rinpoche.

    Sogyal Rinpoche’s child’s mother. “It was window dressing,” says one former Sogyal dakini, “the Dalai Lama blessed the relationship, but Sogyal was never monogamous. One of his other women – Alison — saw herself as the ‘wife’ and she would not have allowed him to stop having sex with her.” So, in this episode it’s not Sogyal Rinpoche who is forcing women to have sex with him, but it’s ‘Alison’, who is forcing Sogyal Rinpoche to have sex with her? Interesting. How many of those Dakinis are victims and how many are themselves abusing Sogyal Rinpoche? What about ‘Alison’s’ long term boyfriend? How did he feel about these events?

    The last story is picked up from an anonymous poster in DI who had problems understanding Sogyal Rinpoche’s unconventional teaching methods. “The last straw for me was when he called a senior assistant to come to the dais. She’s a respected professional in her 60s doing amazing work with the bereaved and the dying. She was forced to kneel beside Sogyal, while he embraced her closely and put his hand on her chest.” It’s a new line in the story, because the old stories repeat that he is only after young women.

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  1174. A View from a Parallel Universe
    A Response to xxxxxxxxxx DI Moderation blog Behind the Thankas

    The story in the blog begins with description of the day when HHDL arrived to Lerab Ling to inaugurate the Temple:

    “It is a cloudy day in August 2008 in the Languedoc-Rousillon region of southern France.“

    This already points to the fact that the she doesn’t know what has happened. It was a completely cloudless day, a miracle by itself in the region. The author was nowhere near the event but writes like she had been there. Too bad, even the ordinary facts don’t match with reality. The rest of the “reality show” has been watched in youtube and the description follows the TV camera’s point of view. That is not the view of anybody who was present in the event.

    Author continues: “So how did a 63 year old man in poor health…” Finally she admits to one fact that she has been avoiding: Sogyal Rinpoche’s health problems have caused him to gain weight at an early age. He had an operation in his stomach that was unsuccessful. He is repeatedly called fat, sleazy, balding, little man. How somebody would like if I called her thin, dry, gray, old harp? Author continues to claim Sogyal Rinpoche “had only a basic education in India” and again she forgets that actually she and him met around the time when he studied Comparative Religion in the Trinity College in Cambridge University. In India he had attended Catholic School in Kalimbong, and then university in Delhi before coming to the west.

    “How did he become to be the head of a multi-national organization with tentacles in five continents?” One explanation in which the Tibetans believe: it has been predicted that Sogyal Rinpoche will achieve a lot in this life as the reincarnated master Terton Sogyal, who was a teacher of the 13th Dalai Lama. As a so-called Buddhist the author should be aware of a concept called ‘karma’. “How did he manage to raise 10 million Euros to build a huge temple in southern France?” It was an American private donor who thought that the Temple is an important project among other people who donated the funds. Have a vision and make it happen! Just choose carefully what kind of vision you’re after!

    Finding Sogyal Rinpoche through his book

    The author believes that the students feel devotion toward Sogyal Rinpoche because of his charisma and his humour – or because he is famous. That is a very superficial look reflecting more the author’s own agendas: as a journalist she likes to follow celebrities around. It shows clearly that she hasn’t spoken to anyone. Which spiritual seeker would say: “I’m here because that man is charismatic and funny!” At least I wouldn’t. I would say: I looked for a spiritual path, but I didn’t want to settle with anything I already knew, since I couldn’t relate to the teachings. I wasn’t looking for a cult or a hippie gang that I would fit into and feel at home among my kind. No. I was and still am quite individualistic and my biggest horror would be being brainwashed and added to some collection of idiots: “Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!” Sogyal Rinpoche has commented at times that his students are so individualistic and stubborn. That is probably the reason why I am not first one to buy into her stories. Of course I have the benefit that I can compare things with my own experiences. I read Sogyal Rinpoche’s book and I thought: this is a truthful book. That is why I wanted to meet him and by chance it happened. Timing was perfect.

    Other people have lost a relative, have been faced with terminal cancer or other health problems and found comfort in his book. The author wants to make even his book look bad, claiming it was made with a motivation to gain riches and not to help people, even though in reality it wouldn’t have touched thousands, if it was a shallow book. Many Tibetan Buddhists in the West today have become Buddhists after reading his book. She constantly tries to dishonor the people who wrote the book. Sogyal Rinpoche gave in the content and others edited it. Even with the straight forward response Harvey gave, she had to twist the meaning into something bizarre, ‘an inconclusive response’: “Sogyal participated totally in every level of the creation of the book and as the representative of his tradition was the indispensable transmitter of its wisdom. The process was a totally mutual collaboration in which Sogyal gave everything and had the final word on every word. It is a very hard process to describe. Any suggestion that Sogyal did not write this book is -I think, absurd and dishonouring of his genius and passion. Both Patrick and I worked tirelessly and I hope, selflessly to honour Sogyal’s brilliance and the wisdom of the tradition. And the book could not exist without the transcripts of Sogyal’s talks that were it’s foundation.”

    “…but Harvey’s words do not confirm Sogyal as the author” the author insists. She thinks that when she edits other people’s stories that she is actually the “author”, but she is a journalist. In her case it is of course so that she becomes the “author” (if that can be used from someone who writes articles for the newspapers) since she changes the story line to suit her own agenda best. Therefore she can’t understand that the more important person – especially in this TBLD case, is the authentic informer. In TBLD Sogyal Rinpoche’s life story is told – and it is told by him, with his language and voice. It’s not Harvey’s life story: he didn’t tell the story nor gave he the teachings.

    According to the Blog, Grant, a former Rigpa member, recalls spending time with Harvey “when he was writing the book”. Grant adds: “Could anyone who knows Sogyal imagine him being able to quote the German mystical poet Rainer Maria Rilke? Or the Sufi sage Jalaluddin Rumi? He simply doesn’t have that level of education.” Yes, I can. I have heard him quoting even many more mystics. He did study in Catholic School and Comparative religion in UK. He might even discuss things with Western people like Patrick, Andrew or a Christian priest. He happens to meet a lot of people all the time. Is that forbidden? Should he live in a vacuum and all knowledge should just drop down from the sky?

    Ngakpa Chogyam: “The book was cobbled together from more than a decade of Sogyal’s teachings,” he says, “I worked for a while on transcribing the tapes. There were a fair few mistakes which I corrected as I went along – particularly about Dzogchen and precise definitions of Buddhist doctrine.” Chogyam is an English speaker, Sogyal Rinpoche is not. Buddhist terminology is still in the process of being translated and corrected. Now Chogyam has corrected some spelling mistakes and he thinks that correcting some definitions of Dzogchen in English puts him up as a transmitter of Dzogchen. Why his books are only circulating among their group? Why I have never seen – and I believe, will never see – a Tibetan lama quoting him? I don’t know how this Ngakpa sees himself, but sounds a bit self-important to me.

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  1175. I just heard I’m not allowed to give my response as a full article. I assume my response here in the comment section will be edited and changed. It’s a blog with an agenda, and my response questions too much. It was not be rejected because of the format or grammatical errors. It’s rejected because I question everything. I’d like Sheila to get my response, so she can make her radio program in the future and consider my view as well. I also suggest Sheila to make a journey to Rigpa in Lerab Lind or Dzogchen Beara and write an extensive testimonial of tens (or hundreds) of people who are working in Rigpa. Give another view against this slanderous stuff.

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  1176. Removed: Off-topic

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  1180. TJ, pointing out that people are innocent until proven guilty does not make me a serial denier – it makes me a functioning member of a democracy.

    We are fortunate to have reasonably honorable leaders at the moment, but should that ever change, we shall be incredibly grateful for the laws our forefathers sought to establish. Even Bush, for all his attempts, could not go as far as he would have in violating citizens’ rights, thanks to the strengths of the existing law of the land.

    Even if every single thing you folks are saying about Sogyal Rinpoche, removed are true, the gossipy way you’re bringing all these accusations and allegations is the very reason they’re not taken seriously, in my opinion.

    But they still do horrible damage to students, teachers and other good people. There is something larger at work behind it, and I aim to find out what.

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  1181. “Sogyal could be abusing someone in front of her and she would deny it.”

    No, I wouldn’t. I think I spend more time in Rigpa than most of these horrified people here. I believe many haven’t even been in Rigpa.

    My friend who works in Rigpa for many months a year and knows those people mentioned in the blog. He tells a completely different story.

    Just because DI Moderation personal attack letters deleted.– with what motivation? – doesn’t mean her stories are real. I’m writing a response to her blog where you can see – if you remove your blindfold – how her stories seem to someone who knows a bit more than most of you here.

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  1182. Removed: Off-topic

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  1184. Behind the thangkas lie a lot of victims sexually, physically and emotionally scared.
    By refusing to look at the dysfunctional system set up by Sogyal Rinpoche and his blind (?)followers at Rigpa,,we contribute to its perpetration and allow for more victims to fall prey and keep silent.
    Already, Sogyal Rinpoche has set up a crooked example for other Tibetan lamas who now feel legitimate in reproducing this”consort”system,endorse SR’s behaviour and reproduce the same pattern themselves with their students.
    What prevents us from seing that behind those labels”Tulku,”His Eminence” ,”Amazing painter”etcetc lie sick people who need to be stopped.This should be our real contribution to the Dharma in the West.
    The truth is our egos feed on these tulkus who were themselves victims of abuse in monasteries.See the recent video posted by kalu Rinpoche.We are all responsible for what happened to him.We still want that fantasy of an idealisedTibetan Buddhism which does not exist.Even if it means crushing human beings in the process.
    Time to stop the mess, grow up , abandon our romantized view of Dharma and break the wall of silence,like others did before us such as Lady Tsogyal and many other courageous contemporary beings exort us to do.

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  1185. Removed: Off-topic

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  1186. Removed: Off-topic

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  1187. I agree-bella is a a waste of time because of her TBS, personal attack removed Certainly Sheilas postings on the Rick Ross forum have calmed down since she was reprimanded then ignored so I vote for just not communicating with either of them in anyway-neither being here for any reason other than trolling DNFTT as they say

    “The troll attempts to pass as a legitimate participant, sharing the group’s common interests and concerns; the newsgroups members, if they are cognizant of trolls and other identity deceptions, attempt to both distinguish real from trolling postings, and upon judging a poster a troll, make the offending poster leave the group. Their success at the former depends on how well they – and the troll – understand identity cues; their success at the latter depends on whether the troll’s enjoyment is sufficiently diminished or outweighed by the costs imposed by the group.” personal attack removed

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  1188. Buddhism has real effective teachings.

    No matter how well one can point the obvious unreliability of MF and the main witnesses, the true believers of this page can’t see the light.

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  1189. True-believer syndrome
    Terminology Coined by M. Lamar Keene (1976)

    Definition The condition of continuing to believe a paranormal event/phenomenon after it has been debunked

    Signature Belief continues without grounds or base
    See also Belief Perseverance

    True-believer syndrome is a term coined by M. Lamar Keene in his 1976 book The Psychic Mafia. Keene used the term to refer to people who continued to believe in a paranormal event or phenomenon even after it had been proven to have been staged.

    Eric Hoffer used the term true believer in his first book, published in 1951, which explored the nature of fanaticism and mass-movements in the political context. Keene considered it to be a cognitive disorder,and regarded it as being a key factor in the success of many psychic mediums

    According to The Skeptic’s Dictionary, an example of this syndrome is evidenced by an event in 1988, when James Randi, at the request of an Australian news program, coached stage performer José Alvarez to pretend he was channelling a two-thousand-year-old spirit named “Carlos”. Even after it was revealed to be a fictional character created by himself and Alvarez, people continued to believe that “Carlos” was real Randi commented: “no amount of evidence, no matter how good it is or how much there is of it, is ever going to convince the true believer to the contrary.

    “no amount of evidence, no matter how good it is or how much there is of it, is ever going to convince the true believer to the contrary.

    “no amount of evidence, no matter how good it is or how much there is of it, is ever going to convince the true believer to the contrary.

    “no amount of evidence, no matter how good it is or how much there is of it, is ever going to convince the true believer to the contrary.

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  1190. When I read the ThankaBLog I constantly remember a movie I saw: She Devil (1989).
    DI Moderation personal attack letters deleted.

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  1191. True-believer syndrome
    Keene used the term to refer to people who continued to believe in a paranormal event or phenomenon even after it had been proven to have been staged.

    “In his book The Psychic Mafia, Keene tells of a psychic medium named Raoul. Some people still believed that Raoul was genuine even after he openly admitted that he was a fake. Keene wrote “I knew how easy it was to make people believe a lie, but I didn’t expect the same people, confronted with the lie, would choose it over the truth. . . . No amount of logic can shatter a faith consciously based on a lie.”

    True-believer syndrome: Self help write in name…….

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  1192. Removed: Off-topic

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  1193. Lets do a Beau Brummell and ignore both Bellab and Shiela. They are here to do Mara’s dance and serve Mara’s slave–Sogyal.

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  1219. “sing out loud, sing out strong”

    “Can os ard, can go láidir!”

    We agree on something!

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  1220. Removed: Off-topic

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  1221. “Who are you working for?”

    Wisconsin Public Radio half-time; musician the other half.

    “You condemn DI for posting an article on the same topic by the same journalist. ”

    No – just feel DI’s statement they have “no relationship to this person” seems ingenuine.

    “Elsewhere you have made wild and baseless allegations against prominent Buddhists.”

    I have never made any allegation, wild or otherwise, against a prominent Buddhist.

    “have denied SRs guilt”

    I have not denied anyone’s guilt – only an accused individual can “deny” guilt. I have stated I don’t feel any of the teachers accused on DI so far removed are guilty of the sexual abuse you people say they are. Those are my feelings–I am entitled to mine, and you are entitled to yours. Since no criminal trials have taken place for any of these men, all we can do is say how we personally feel (if we choose to say anything at all), as there are no jury conclusions on guilt or innocence to point to.

    I am not a student of the removed, nor the removed, nor the removed, though I respect the writings, teachings and teachers of all those traditions. I am a student of the Gelug tradition, but no Gelug teacher is named here (except that HH Dalai Lama is mentioned disparagingly now and then), so I’m not sure how you would imply sectarian bias. Certainly I do defend the Dalai Lama vigorously on the Chinese forums, and I suppose you could accuse me there of “Gelug bias,” except that’s not why I defend him. I don’t know about other people, but I don’t personally feel a strong offensive/defensive position as regards “sect;” I think of myself as a general Buddhist, even though my primary teachers are Gelug.

    I never stated I was an experienced researcher, although I have worked for the network for over ten years. I suppose at some point it’s possible that the talk radio side of our network will do a piece on all this–we have done quite a few Buddhist-related shows in the past–but nothing is currently in the works. I wouldn’t personally rule it out, because I think there is a bigger story here than meets the eye.

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  1222. Nice to see you side with Sheila, she having sided with you after all-maybe she sees you as a good advert for Tibetan Buddhism, you know your open mindedness, your willingness to consider more than one point of view, your deep knowledge and expeeince of the traditions???

    Actually, your agendas are quite different despite apparent similarities. You are here to deny all criticism of Sogyal Rinpoche whereas she is here perhaps to draw attention away from abuse in the Catholic Church=Oh no, theyre really both the same-both agendas are about abuse and denial, Sheilas just a little more subtle than you (I said a litlle more)

    Change the record bella-its getting boring listening to you denying everything and calling everyone who alleges abuse a liar.Dont you have anything else to do? I mean really?

    Where are you Sheila? Off on a Christmas sojourn to Rome?

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  1223. JB, Guest,

    “Elsewhere you have made wild and baseless allegations against prominent Buddhists then withdrawn them when the weakness of your evidence was exposed and refused to apologise, then you have denied SRs guilt DESPITE substantial evidence to the contrary.”

    Sheila didn’t make those allegations. Those allegations came from your side, from Victoria Barlow and Mary Finnigan. Sheila merely mentioned them.

    Substantial? There is no substantial evidence. That is what is being evaluated here. So far nothing much to say. Main people are dishones. They don’t anymore SEEM dishonest, now I know they are. Removed by DI Moderation personal attacks
    so she didn’t care too much for him. Let it go already. Have you been suffering for a long time (decades?) because of this story?

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  1224. Removed: Off-topic

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  1225. Removed: Off-topic

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  1226. Does this mean the director of Dialogue Ireland will no longer be able to call me Sheila Amnesia?

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  1227. Personal attacks will be removed? But the whole article is a personal attack.

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  1228. “oh Its all gone quiet over there,…..”

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  1229. Could you themadhair then in all decency remove the above blog away?

    Do you know that it contains names of real individuals, identifiable individuals, who have nothing to do with the claimed events?

    DI Moderation:
    Section Removed Personal attack:

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  1230. Moderation Announcement

    Until now Dialogue Ireland has taken a very ‘hands-off’ approach to moderating the comments sections of our blog. Like any idealistic policy this approach has suffered some setbacks: specifically the presence of personal attacks and off-topic postings, particularly in the threads concerning Buddhism (over 2,000 comments and counting).

    With this in mind Dialogue Ireland will be implementing the following for the Buddhism threads:

    1) All personal attacks will be removed. No ifs, ands or buts. It is not clever and it is not conducive to meaningful discussion.

    2) Any material not strongly connected to the post being commented upon will be removed.

    Dialogue Ireland will be opening up a discussion forum in the very near future. Forums, by their very nature, make it very easy to facilitate off-topic discussions and the moderation thereof. When we launch this forum it will be possible for all posters to open threads where they can discuss material that is not strongly connected to the material posted on our blog. Unfortunately, our Blog software does not have the capability to offer these features at present and we feel that it is important to try keeping the blog commenting sections as ‘on-topic’ as possible.

    We hope that all posters will understand the spirit in which we are implementing these changes, and we hope you will persevere with these minor restrictions us until we have our forum up and running.

    Thank you.

    End Moderation Announcement

    You can leave feedback and comments here:
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2011/12/16/commenting-policy/

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  1231. The fact is that I HAVE BEEN WAITING for 2 years for her to reveal her dossier!

    I was thinking that there might be at least a little story there, in the secret dossier – something, that might explain her devotion to the subject.

    After this revelation I can only cry and laugh at the same time.

    I’m relieved that all of this has ended up being some bizarre trip that one can put behind oneself.

    I have been right all along that this is a slanderous liar who is behind it all – and the BS-blog proves me right.

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  1232. Sankappa, have you been in Rigpa?

    If you have, can you in all honesty and decency say that the BSThankaBlog describes things as they are?

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  1233. Really Bella – I’d say that the above was testament to yours!

    And as for sheila’s exhortation to research – as was mentioned on the previous thread, she’s already made her mind up, so any research she does now or in the future is completely irrelevant

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  1234. “bellaB, on December 16, 2011 at 5:13 am said:
    She has lost it and that is the Final Testament of Her Madness”
    Shock Horror. Pot calls kettle black!

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  1235. She has lost it and that is the Final Testament of Her Madness.

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  1236. Mary finally published her secret dossier! BS Thanka Blog. She finally did it and we can all read how crazy she is.

    1. Mary Finnigan, on May 18, 2009 at 6:36 pm said:
    “Congrautlations Dialogue Ireland. You must have spent many hours on research and writing to produce this item. I have a great deal more hard, corroborated evidence of Sogyal’s sexual depravity, self-indulgence and financial preoccupation.
    There are now more than 30 people willing to join forces to make sure that Sogyal is taken out of circulation as a teacher effectively and permanently. I would be grateful if you could email me any further information that comes your way. I am especially interested in women who are willing to testify about their sexual encounters with Sogyal. Thei anonymity is guaranteed.”

    -> There are 30 people who do not like Sogyal Rinpoche. The dossier is not necessarily about victims.

    39. Tiger Lily, on July 6, 2009 at 1:49 pm said:
    “I have been in contact with Mary Finnigan for a number of years now and have given my permission for her to use my statement of my experience of Rigpa and Sogyal under a pseudonym, Last year she brought to my house the young woman mentioned above who told me of her own time as an attendant “dakini” to Sogyal. I was profoundly shocked. Her account rang true because I had been a girlfriend of Sogyal’s many years ago and knew what he could be like and how the devoted students of Sogyal would cover up his behaviour.”

    -> Victoria Barlow describing how she met Janine, “Mimi”?

    Mary Finnigan, on July 11th, 2009 at 5:00 pm Said:
    “I would like to see him taken out of circulation as a teacher effectively and permanently.”

    135. Pema, on August 27, 2009 at 7:05 am said:
    “Hi Kapasi,
    If all the women came forward they’d fill the Royal Albert Hall…”

    136. Pema, on August 27, 2009 at 3:06 pm said:
    “And imagine what will happen to S in the bardos…all those screeching harpies….”

    141. Pema, on September 22, 2009 at 4:32 pm said:
    “Sogyal was at Merigar some years ago. I hear that this visit went down like a lead balloon. Apparently he had about 5 people at his *teachings* (plagiarised from ChNN and other lamas) and they were so banal he was laughed off the premises. I don’t have feedback on this latest one yet — but it will happen in due course. When it does I will post again here.”

    -> Namkhai Norbu supports Sogyal Rinpoche, NOT Mary Finnigan. Sorry Mary, ASK your own teacher’s advice on Sogyal! Or you don’t dare?

    4. bellaB, on October 13, 2009 at 8:27 pm said:
    “Is it Sogyal Rinpoche that this person is talking in the article (in RR by MF): “… at the hands of a very ordinary, fat and balding, middle aged man with a penchant for beer, food, praise, TV, and sleep.”

    -> I was told by Sogyal Rinpoche in a public teaching that he doesn’t need a lot of sleep, he also cannot drink alcohol, he does practice hours per day, teaches and travels, works daily as the spiritual leader and the boss of the multinational organization called Rigpa… Students can’t have private audiences with him, since he is a BUSY person. I really wonder if the author KNOWS who she/he is talking about… ”

    150. sincere-seeker, on October 27, 2009 at 8:04 am said:
    “At the end of the retreat I filed up onto stage for my blessing, smiling and full of gratitude for what had happened. It was the first time I’d been that close up to him. Expecting to sense the wonderful love that many others raved about, I looked briefly into SR’s eyes and to my horror – saw dark and pure lust – that’s the only way I can describe it.”

    152. Pema, on October 27, 2009 at 10:17 am said:
    “Many thanks Sincere-Seeker for your thoughtful post. It echoes the best that has unfolded here —

    -> NOTE: This is the best Mary has here!

    269. Pema, on December 13, 2009 at 10:05 am said:
    “Many have said it, but I’ll say it again and then end my Sunday morning fun. Bella is stark, staring mad. A truly imrpessive example of the benefits of ‘spirtual’ practice Rugpa style.”

    266. bellaB, on December 13, 2009 at 9:28 am said:
    Why don’t YOU yourself go to court with your ‘dossier’? Save us rest from the bad talk and Rigpa people are this and that. We are no different from the majority of the population on the planet.

    267. Pema, on December 13, 2009 at 9:46 am said:
    Er Bella — which planet do you live on? Go to court? Where did you get the idea that I could afford to employ lawyers? I am a journalist Bella, not an investment banker. Suggest you call your local attorney and ask how much it costs to mount a libel action.

    271. bellaB, on December 13, 2009 at 10:31 am said:
    “If you are sure to win, go to court, take a loan, since your high goal is to destroy SR and save women around the world.
    Think if you went to court 20 years ago, you didn’t need to do all this today. Think if you invested the 20% of your work time to inform people about islam and the daily abuse of women, it might have benefitted much more. But of course you might be living in isolation because of threats to your life.”

    54. bellaB, on October 24, 2009 at 3:25 pm said:
    “By publishing the actual stories, any reader could compare it to the reality of retreats and draw conclucions, if the story sounds authentic or not.”

    18. Mary Finnigan, on July 5, 2009 at 10:20 am said:
    “Newspapers are so undermanned/womanned these days they don’t have time or resources to conduct in depth investigations.”

    -> Therefore nobody has time to check her stories in the Gurdian!

    There’s no way in believing ‘stories’ of anybody if you cannot read them and verify them in real life. With the BSThankaBlog I could do it and that is why it’s easy to see and check that the information is false.

    If Mary Finnigan would publish her dossier, we could do the same: read and verify. If the BSThankaBlog was her dossier, then that’s the end of it for me. She has lost and that is a Final Testament of Her Madness.

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  1237. Pseudonyms are used to protect some individuals. Their words are on record and their identities are known.

    I also know the identities:

    Victoria Barlow, Mary Finnigan and “Mimi” = Janine from the infamous documentary.

    Ngakpa Chogyam tarnishing his own name.

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  1238. ANONYMOUS blog – Behind the BS Thankas – mentioning women by NAME belonging to a harem. The story teller herself hides behind the anonymous nic, Janine – protecting the little minded liars, but publishing names they say ugly, stupid lies about!

    How immoral and stupid
    a) Mary
    b) Dialogue Ireland
    can be?

    Those people mentioned by name have other jobs than wiping SR’s ass. Libel suit, anyone?!

    DI Moderation: Personal Attacks

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  1239. You are DI out of your MIND!

    Your mission is SLANDER, just like Mary FINNIGAN’s!

    How low can you get……. Stupid and low. Nothing more to add.

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  1240. Why does this article make no mention of the mysterious French woman at the 1997 LSE/Inform conference?

    The “undercover journalist,” Elodie Emery, wrote me personally only days ago to say that DI’s and Mary Finnigan’s (the author of Behind the Thangkas) translation and edit of the Marianne article was not authorized.

    Marianne’s Mathieu Maire du Poset had written me prior to that, stating that Dialogue Ireland’s hosting of the article itself was unauthorized. I’ll forward these emails to anyone who’d like them for their own research.

    Per Marianne’s copyright statement, both the unauthorized republication of the original article, and the publication of an unauthorized translation are violations of international copyright law.

    This is the third article in the last several months written by Mary Finnigan to be hosted by DI; yet Mr Garde states Dialogue Ireland has “no relationship to this person.”

    As to the embattled Victoria Barlow, her original supporters state, “…she [was] too one dimensional, too driven, too inclined towards defining her life by incidents which she herself SURELY participated in willingly a lot of years ago…she herself realizes that it was NOT regular behavior, not a part of the teachings, not endorsed by anyone in authority.” (Evelyn Ruut, alt-philosophy-zen, 5/11/05)

    It may seem cruel to call someone out like this; however, it is only necessary because that person is herself working to destroy the lives of good and kind people. Why? That’s the question of the day.

    People accusing others of breaking the law, even as they themselves are in that moment breaking the law; people accusing others of deceit, while they themselves are in that moment engaging in deceit.

    Dig into this story – dig with compassion, and dig with vigor. Truth will be its own reward.

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