The Buddhist organisations that are thriving during the debt crisis by Mary Finnigan in The Guardian

In times of financial hardship, meditators are still willing to pay large fees to hear the teachings of high-profile Buddhists

Friday 18 November 2011

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/nov/18/buddhism-debt-crisis

Here we are stuck in an economic downturn, with the threat of a financial tsunami gathering momentum in the eurozone and with pundits telling us it can only get worse. You might expect people to be careful about their budget priorities – and that nonessential expenditure like spiritual teachings would be put on hold.

Evidence suggests, however, that the opposite is true – especially if you happen to be Buddhist. It seems that in this period of acute financial stress, Buddhists are still willing to part with their pounds, dollars, roubles and rupees in order to sustain their meditation practice. Because meditation calms the mind and generates insight, this is a predictable response – but what does come as a surprise is the amounts of money involved.

Take the 17th Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje, for example. A young, high-profile Tibetan Buddhist lama with a romantic history of escape from Tibet after dodging Chinese security. Confined for several years under conditions resembling house arrest in India, he eventually managed to visit the United States for the first time in 2008. About 2,000 people gathered at a monastery in Woodstock to catch a glimpse of him. They paid $200 each. Roughly $400,000 (£250,000) hit the coffers and after expenses, the monastery had enough left over to embark on an extensive building project.

Then there’s Sogyal Rinpoche – credited as author of the bestseller The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. A recent feature in the French news magazine Marianne revealed that the cheapest tariff for a week’s teachings with him at his centre Lerab Ling in France was €500 (£425) – which entitled participants to pitch a tent and eat vegetarian food. Five hundred people attended the retreat, including reporter Elodie Emery – which means that Sogyal attracted more than €250,000 on one occasion.

Emery estimates that Lerab Ling pulls in €1m to €1.5m annually in retreat fees alone – in addition to shop sales and donations. Sogyal’s global organisation, Rigpa, has websites that include multiple income streams. One of them, the Tertön Sogyal foundation, targets will bequests. Board members include Pedro Beroy, the managing director of the investment banking division of Credit Suisse.

In October this year, 1,500 people flew to Tenerife for three days of teachings with Choegyal Namkhai Norbu, one of the few remaining Tibetan lamas still active who was trained in pre-Chinese Tibet. A widely respected master of the Dzogchen tradition of Tibetan Buddhism, Namkhai Norbu attracts capacity audiences wherever he goes. In Tenerife the cost was €150, excluding flights, accommodation and subsistence.

In common with pop musicians, footballers and corporate CEOs, it is the superstar Buddhist teachers who generate big money. Without them, many centres around the world would be hard pressed to make ends meet. As the older ones fade away, a new generation including the 17th Karmapa, is being groomed to take their place. These include the reincarnations of the late Ling Rinpoche, Kalu Rinpoche and Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. (Rinpoche means “precious one”).

But if all this sounds like quality Buddhist teachings are beyond the reach of middle- to low-income neophytes – there is good news. In the UK, several Buddhist organisations offer meditation instruction at moderate prices. The Dechen community led by Lama Jampa Thaye offers one-day courses for £17.50, rising to £20 next year. A two- or three-day event with the high-profile lama Sakya Trizin costs £20-25 per day. Beginners classes are around £4 per session.

Gaia House in Devon has a programme of residential courses with visiting teachers, with cost on a sliding scale from £118 to £59 depending on means. Director Andy Power says there’s an “element of trust” involved in this. The fees for a Zen retreat with senior teachers Stephen and Martine Batchelor range from £363 to £76.

The Theravada Buddhist organisation, The Samatha Trust, relies on voluntary donations for teachings and retreats. “The exception to this,” says the treasurer, Anne Schellizi, “is that we charge beginners a flat £50 for a weekend at our centre.”

When the Thai meditation master Nai Boonman visits, Anne says retreatants are “spontaneously” generous. The trust covers its overheads on an annual income of £35,000, but runs appeals for projects like new buildings.

An Indian prince, 2,500 years ago, brought up in the lap of luxury renounced all worldly possessions to become the Buddha. His example led to the foundation of an order of mendicant monks and nuns who rely on the generosity of local communities for their survival.

“The basis of monasteries is not economic production,” says Rupert Gethin, professor of Buddhist studies at Bristol University, “but there’s a form of social contract – if you want monks and nuns in your society you have to support them. Monastic institutions can accept financial donations and some of them do become quite wealthy.”

Clearly many organisations are making healthy profits from running Buddhist events, although it is a recognised principle that the teachings are not for sale. Whether this state of affairs is corrupt – or simply a 21st century fact of life is open to debate.

 

744 Responses

  1. Mark read the material on Lamaism, the cash is the least of your problems.

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  2. I left the Dechen Community simply for the amount of money it was costing. The advertised price does not stop there. People are expected to give cash donations on top of this in a plain white envelope once they get there. Looking around the room I could see people openly stuffing multiple 20s into envelopes before sealing them up to offer at initiations. I left to attend the local Hindu temple and have never being asked to pay a penny unless I wanted to make an anonymous a donation. Can you imagine the uproar if the local village church wanted to sign people up to direct debit schemes as they walked through the door.
    This idea of initiations and cash payments being made each level of initiation has worked out to be a very lucrative business model for many Tibetan Buddhist groups.
    I don’t attend Buddhist groups anymore but the only teacher of Tibetan Buddhism I ever found that doesn’t rob his students blind is Ole Nydahl, and he’s berated by other Buddhist groups.

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  3. I have noticed a huge advertising campaign going on for Vinyasa “Flow” Teacher Training. The main thrust is to get people to take a yoga ‘holiday’ away to train.

    In Wikimedia Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga, also known as Ashtanga Yoga, is a style of yoga codified[1][2] and popularized by K. Pattabhi Jois, and which is often promoted as a modern-day form of classical Indian yoga.[3] Pattabhi Jois began his yoga studies in 1927 at the age of 12, and by 1948 had established an institute for teaching the specific yoga practice known as Ashtanga (Sanskrit for “eight-limbed”) Vinyasa Yoga.[4] Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga is named after the eight limbs of yoga mentioned in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali.[5]

    I recently spoke to someone who is taking yoga classes in Cork. She insists that it is only about exercises. She said “a man from India travels to Ireland to give classes”. Who is he and why does he not inform the students about the connection it has to an Indian belief system? All information in the advertisments I have read seems sanitized (without religious paraphernalia or philosophy) and geared towards western interest yet their advertisements ask that they go to a different country to train. In this type of environment for 4 weeks it is difficult for me to accept that it is only about physical exercises.

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  4. To Giulia: Very enlightening. It is advantageous to know the belief systems behind sexual rites in some traditional religious cultures. Since I am not versed in any Indian tradition I cannot comment on them separately. However, I do see a thread of abuse, particularly sexual abuse and the use of sex, or promise of, to gain control over a person’s life/energy.

    Many Western cultures embraced these belief systems without fully understand what the dangers were in ‘aligning’ themselves to a particular guru. The self proclaimed Irish guru, Tony Quinn, is an example of how certain aspects of these teachings are used to manipulate, control and, too often, have destroyed peoples lives. I have witnessed followers being in a trance state, zombie like, and his use of the collective energy to control their physical movements and manipulate their states of mind. Yes, there are ways to protect ourselves, usually a belief in a spiritual higher power, on an energy level but very few actually believe or realise how they are controlled in the first place or the devious intentions of those who will attempt to hold on to ‘devotees’ for access to their energy and their slave labour to fulfil the guru’s desire for power, sex, material wealth etc.,

    People who are attracted to these type of gurus don’t seem to know about the practice of mass hypnosis, used by the likes of Tony Quinn, to gain control over their minds and how their thinking is distorted and deliberately manipulated to draw other people into the group. His use of collective energy is criminal in his efforts to create a slave mentality, people to are at his disposal to do whatever he wants them to even when it is patently obvious to many, particularly family, that their minds have been taken over by Quinn’s so called ‘philosophy’. Their ability to think logically and make personal decisions is destroyed in the process of hypnotically induced ‘beliefs’ that serve the intentions of the guru and the few who profit from their criminal behaviour.

    It is also educational to know how ‘devotees’, who are still in awe of their ‘guru’, seem incapable of feeling empathy towards those who have suffered rape and abuse at the hands of these so called ‘enlightened’ ones.

    No belief system, religious or otherwise, should have the opportunity to abuse anyone because of distorted and dangerous beliefs of gaining purification etc through physical, mental or spiritual raping! It is unbelievably ignorant and dangerous to allow sexual predators to abuse under the guise of religious beliefs!!!

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  5. Just to be clear, the author Gendun Chopel cited above by the Trimondis says absolutely nothing about offering 12 year olds sweets before ritual sex.

    This is a pretty big risk, professionally, for the Trimondis to have taken in inventing this passage, as it is clearly libelous. The citations in question are on pages 135 and 177 of the book Tibetan Arts of Love, edited by Jeffrey Hopkins, if you would like to check for yourself.

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  6. Triangle-faced supreme tulku is swearing loyalty to me
    DI Moderation- off topic on this thread

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  7. `TARA`airplane crashed DI Moderation- off topic on this thread

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  8. #WOMEN# means: DI Moderation- off topic on this thread

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  9. And `Dalai Lama´ giving very wrong advice DI Moderation- off topic on this thread

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  10. Even one of those Karmapas is trying to make money
    DI Moderation- off topic on this thread

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  11. Dialogueireland: Please let’s have a thread about what people think about the fact that there are at least 3 young men posing as Orgyen Trinley Dorje 17th Karmapa —- isn’t it very pernicious to keep up this charade?

    DI Moderation- off topic on this thread

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  12. sankappa, what “abuse at the hands of the Chinese” are you referring to?

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  13. Yes, quite right Julia. My comment was mainly to point out Sheila’s hypocrisy, but I agree with what you are saying from about the wider perspective

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  14. Importantly, nobody has denied any Tibetan their experiences of abuse by whomever, but people try to deny others’ experiences of abuse at the hands of Tibetan Lamas. Strange & twisted.

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  15. Moderation Announcement

    Until now Dialogue Ireland has taken a very ‘hands-off’ approach to moderating the comments sections of our blog. Like any idealistic policy this approach has suffered some setbacks: specifically the presence of personal attacks and off-topic postings, particularly in the threads concerning Buddhism (over 2,000 comments and counting).

    With this in mind Dialogue Ireland will be implementing the following for the Buddhism threads:

    1) All personal attacks will be removed. No ifs, ands or buts. It is not clever and it is not conducive to meaningful discussion.

    2) Any material not strongly connected to the post being commented upon will be removed.

    Dialogue Ireland will be opening up a discussion forum in the very near future. Forums, by their very nature, make it very easy to facilitate off-topic discussions and the moderation thereof. When we launch this forum it will be possible for all posters to open threads where they can discuss material that is not strongly connected to the material posted on our blog. Unfortunately, our Blog software does not have the capability to offer these features at present and we feel that it is important to try keeping the blog commenting sections as ‘on-topic’ as possible.

    We hope that all posters will understand the spirit in which we are implementing these changes, and we hope you will persevere with these minor restrictions us until we have our forum up and running.

    Thank you.

    End Moderation Announcement

    You can leave feedback and comments here:
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2011/12/16/commenting-policy/

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  16. Those sources are not about sexual abuse!

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  17. bellaB said:

    “Sankappa, give me a reliable source for a testimony!”

    I just have bellaB, but now you are trying to side-step it. It’s up to you now to prove that this is not a reliable source.

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  18. Darker side…?

    There are many sides to everybody. Sogyal Rinpoche’s wrathful side is no secret to anybody. He is not just a funny man.

    Sexual abuse is another matter.

    The Wrathful Side can be found in each and every lama.

    Only Christian priests pretend to be ‘nice’ and act ‘holy’.

    Look at Christ and his Wrathful side!

    Any complaints about it?

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  19. Let’s start with this:

    “However, there is a darker side to Sogyal, a side that Dialogue Ireland first became aware of some years ago at the London School of Economics’ Inform ‘Seminar on New Religious Movements (NRMs) and Violence,’ held on May 3, 1997. Inform is a New Religious Movements Centre based at the LSE and which was founded by the prominent NRM authority, Professor Eileen Barker. At the conference, a Frenchwoman, who had been Sogyal’s assistant for some years offered a most distressing account of the indignities she claimed to have endured at the ‘Golden Child’s’ hands.”

    This has been confirmed by Mike Garde of Dialogue Ireland, who was present at this seminar.

    Oh, I see now why you are so worked-up bellaB. Behind The Thangkas have just been posted on Dialogue Ireland.

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  20. Sankappa, give me a reliable source for a testimony!

    DI Moderation: Personal Attacks

    Find somebody else.

    – Found Victoria Barlow!

    DI Moderation: Personal Attacks Thanka Blog.

    Wohoo!!

    Anybody else?

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  21. I’m repeating this because this is the heart of the matter:

    “Importantly, nobody has denied you your experiences and those of your family of abuse at the hands of the Chinese, but you have denied others, their experiences of abuse, at the hands of Tibetan Lamas. Shameful!”

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  22. Sheila, it’s been noted before by others, at times you have no ability to read and then reflect, or you unconsciously just want to gloss over what has been said, and go off on a tangent. Or perhaps this is just part of your diversionary tactics. Basically you’ve just ignored what I’ve said in my above post.

    I’ll spell it out for you: no one gives a flying f**k about your Chinese conspiracy theories. They do not apply here. You have let your own experiences with the Chinese cloud and colour your judgment when it comes to people being abused by Tibetan Lamas.They are their own experiences.

    Now, take time to reflect and contemplate for a change…..

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  23. Sankappa, 你是中國人嗎?

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  24. Sankappa, bias for/against what? I am not Nyingma.

    There are definitely Chinese government office types working against Tibetans, and working against human rights in general. But as I’ve also pointed out here, some of the clearest criticism of the Sogyal Rinpoche allegations has come from Chinese netizens. They are more adept, often, at peeling away layers of propaganda and hype from stories than we are – sadly, because they have to deal with it daily.

    Just go to any of the Chinese government’s anti-Sogyal Rinpoche sites – hit ‘translate’ and read the comments. Enlightening, and humbling.

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  25. JB, Guest,

    we have had this fight before.

    I’m sorry but the ‘story’ you provided was not very convincing. I already asked for details, you didn’t provide. If I asked if the girl was willing, chose SR and didn’t care much about your male friend, you deny it.

    In which decade this happened?

    In which country?

    There are other questions regarding this too.

    I should tell you also that SR takes care of people’s relationships. If there is a relationship going down, he tries to help. I have seen it happen in front of my own eyes. My friend knows those people and he has told me how SR tries to help people who are in pain. That is why he has followers, because they all know he cares quite a deal about how people are.

    Had I known you were JB, I wouldn’t have bothered rereading the old messages for hours yesterday.

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  26. “I also disbelieve the allegations aganst Kalu Rinpoche, Sogyal Rinpoche, and HH the Karmapa.”

    Finally Sheila you’ve had the guts to fully and clearly reveal your hand, although it’s taken you so long. It was however, made obvious by your antagonistic approach from the outset to anyone making claims of abuse here, what your true agenda was/is. The fact is you have acted with deception. While pretending to be here seeking the truth, you’ve been proffering your rubbish conspiracy theories in order to distract, discredit and undermine. You didn’t start with an open mind as you implied, but came here with a biased view point and an opinion already solidified around your obviously negative experiences with the Chinese. Importantly, nobody has denied you your experiences and those of your family of abuse at the hands of the Chinese, but you have denied others, their experiences of abuse, at the hands of Tibetan Lamas. Shameful!

    I think we can categorically state, that any “research” you’ve done (or any you do in the future) can be seen for the sham it actually is.

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  27. AND…. SR is NOT a murderer, nor is ST nor am I

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  28. Interesting: the day before that murder or suicide (i.e. on May 10th 2011), I received chat-mails from somebody near Dharamsala asking: “How do you feel? Don’t you have a head-ache? Nauseous?” and the morning of that murder or suicide (i.e. May 11th 2011) that same person asked me: “Are you ok? Where are you??”

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  29. Why it are always women who “disbelieve allegations”? Answer: because they never have experienced how it is to have testosterone running through the body — they will, though, at pre-menopause stage, and then will understand every word is true of the “allegations”.

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  30. The way I view it is thus: If you’re lucky, your “boss” mumbles something like “Actually he is a terton, you know….” and then gives opportunities for movie stars etc. to throw themselves on you, each thinking she is unique, and of course giving large donations, which, unfortunately, land up with the boss mainly, but at least you can say in front of a full audience that “iPhones are piling up at Sidhbari” (really? well, mine got stolen a couple of weeks ago by one of you people, send me one?).

    Why Chinese ladies don’t press charges?
    -size matters?
    -are more subdued culture-wise?
    -some are hung on a fan from the ceiling (May 11, 2011, Sidhbari)?

    Oh, and SR is a dog, ST is a pig and I am an ox.

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  31. Guest, compassionate_warrior refers to multiple people, so that can’t be a reference to only one person.

    You say I haven’t the guts to “admit I could be wrong” about the allegations against removed, when I’ve already stated that I disbelieve them altogether.

    I also disbelieve the allegations aganst removed, Sogyal Rinpoche, and HH the Karmapa.

    What I do find believable (since I see evidence of it) is that a small group of people is after Tibetan teachers in general. I believe the Chinese are involved; however, I’m not sure which end of the bandwagon they inhabit.

    I thought about something yesterday – why, given the hundreds of thousands of Chinese students of Tibetan Buddhist teachers, are there no Chinese women bringing charges against Tibetan teachers?

    And again – where are all the half-Tibetan, half-western children of this alleged rampant sex culture?

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  32. Sheila, since all the people you name are in fact referring to the same person, your post is illogical and disingenuous-you repeated the slander of V B and are guilty as charged, you just havent got the guts to admit that you could be wrong-very, very weak=I wouldnt want you stood behind me in a skirmish-moral jellyfish syndrome

    Bella, you deny the validity of everything anyone says, as usual, and bombard the site with pro sogyal propaganda, as usual, Yes Ive been to RIGPA and,yes, sogyal screwed one of my friends, though she claims it was something she never intended (obviously lying). It doesnt matter what anyone says to you, even if sogyal was humping your daughter in front of you against her wishes, you would deny it ever happened,Again, psychological weakness, manifesting as a complete unwillingness that might cause you to question your fairy tale shangri la fantasies, It is a total waste of time talking with you since the you are totally blind to logic, truth, testimony, experience. You need help to escape from what looks very much like battered wife syndrome (He hits me because he loves me)

    Both weak individuals psychologically Both Sogyal supporters-coincid

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  33. Guest,

    people don’t write much here, since they find it waste of time, but I still want to remind you about these stories. I find them more detailed than the “abuse stories”. Of course my own experience about SR is similar. I hope one day Mary will wake up to this reality. She seems to listen only some “friend’s testimonies”, how one person couldn’t “get the nature of mind experience, ever” – and she ignores the other testimonies. I have met a few people, heard stories of others and experienced myself something, so I believe SR is a genuine teacher.

    1. Sogyal Rinoche is Amazing, on July 5, 2009 at 10:01 pm said:
    “I too am very concerned about abuse and am glad that there are more and more people in the world willing to speak out against violence directed against women or anyone else for that matter. I also understand the absolute need to make sure that victims of any abuse have a safe environment to heal and support to confront their attacker.
    However, we also have to be very careful not to go so far in the other extreme that we tear down good people through anonymous witch hunts.
    While I am not an employee of Rigpa or have any kind of official status within the organization, I have known Sogyal Rinpoche for more than 25 years. On occasion I have travelled with him, he has frequently stayed in my home and to this day I consider him one of the most compassionate, wise and amazing buddhist masters I have ever met. I have had the unbelievable good fortune to have studied with many of the greatest masters including masters such as Kyabjé Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Kyabjé Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, and of course His Holiness the Dalai Lama. All of them spoke very highly of Sogyal Rinpoche and encouraged me to study with him. In all the time I have known him I have never seen him do anything to anyone for vulgar, selfish gain. However, I have seen him perform inspiring, selfless acts of kindness and charity helping people and showing them how to live better, healthier and more productive lives.
    When I read many of the postings on this website, I hear lots of claims of “corroborated evidence” against Sogyal Rinpoche but no actual evidence.
    The mere existence of the lawsuit seems to convince many people that there is evil afoot. Are we really so readily willing to throw away the principal of presumed innocence until proven guilty? As many of us who were there at the time know, that lawsuit was about something other than Rinpoche’s actions. And a careful reading of Mick Brown’s article, posted on this site, pretty much makes that point. Actually the fact that the widely respected Robert Thurman would speak so plainly about it is remarkable because he risked his reputation and good relations with many that he was implicitly criticizing. In any case, lawsuits get filed in the US all the time on very flimsy evidence. That it was settled out of court means only that, you can’t draw any conclusion based on the fact that it was settled about the merits of the case. You can’t even infer whether there was any cash payment or if there was which party paid (the possibility of a strong counter suit can lead to the alleged victim to pay the alleged attacker). Furthermore it is fairly standard procedure in the US, as part of a settlement, that neither side can discuss it. So Rigpa’s silence is merely due to a legally binding agreement it was a party to.
    I am very troubled by the number of unsubstantiated claims made against this truly remarkable individual. In addition to the hearsay evidence about abuse, you even have people making completely ludicrous assertions that Sogyal Rinpoche didn’t write the book. I personally witnessed Rinpoche writing the book.
    You have some silly stuff about Sogyal Rinpoche’s teacher Kyabjé Dudjom Rinpoche allegedly “suggesting he give up teaching for a while and return to India to ‘ripen his practice’.”
    Kyabjé Dudjom Rinpoche would never make public his personal practice advice to any of his students let alone one of his close Tulku disciples like Sogyal Rinpoche. It isn’t even a cultural probability. This story is just someone’s fabricated spin. Sogyal Rinpoche remained one of Kyabjé Dudjom Rinpoche’s close disciples and continued to serve him even after Rigpa was established. To this day Rinpoche receives frequent counsel from Kyabjé Dudjom Rinpoche’s Sangyum (wife) and enjoys close relations with other members of the family. They would laugh if they heard this ridiculous claim.
    Since 1994 a one or two dodgy people have made it a kind of crusade to bad mouth Sogyal Rinpoche on the internet. Yet despite 15 years of digging we still have the same tired accusations of mountains of unreleased “corroborated evidence.” Even today’s piece of investigative journalism, the article published in the Times, could only in the end say that there was a lawsuit and some uncorroborated claims on the internet. Is this really good enough evidence to form a virtual, cyber lynch mob?
    I am sure that the founders of this website have really good intentions, and even though I disagree with this particular case, I support the general efforts and intentions of Dialog Ireland. But I must say I am very troubled by the careless flogging of rumor, innuendo and anonymous, hearsay accusations. While of course it conforms to the standards of much of the internet, we should all strive to do better than that. I do hope the good people who run this site will reconsider their actions.”

    2. Survivor, on July 6, 2009 at 8:13 pm said:
    “Dear friends,
    I wouldn’t normally respond to posts on the internet and certainly not tell my personal story, as I’m about to. But this time there seems to be a need for that, even though it’s painful for me to tell it.
    Just to give you the context: When I began to study with Sogyal Rinpoche about 17 years ago, I was a young woman who had been considered especially attractive since being a young girl. It’s a bit awkward to say something like that about oneself – but here I just want you to know where I was coming from: being a beautiful young woman also meant to constantly have predators around and having to be on guard.
    And I was especially on guard, because I had been badly traumatized. As a child – actually I had been brutally gang-raped at age 8. Needless to say that I had grown extra sensitive antennas to any sexual vibes coming towards me and always erring on the side of feeling threatened.
    On top of that, my father had been quite abusive and I grew up with a constant fear of abusive males in general.
    So At the age of 23 I had already had one mixed experience with a Buddhist group. But after attending a talk by Sogyal Rinpoche in Berlin I knew I wanted to study further with him. In a short time I became quite close to him, often spending periods of time alone with him in my home and other places. If Sogyal Rinpoche had even remotely resembled an abusive sexual predator, I would have smelled that right away and left feeling sorry for his students.
    But instead I haven’t felt unsafe around him for a single instant. Noone has ever shown such profound respect for me nor treated me with more love and kindness. Just through this, Rinpoche disarmed my patterns of shame and self-hate again and again. Having a keen sense of what each individual needs, he has always been especially gentle with me, allowing me to heal in my own time. And – just in case you were wondering I was never his lover.
    Sogyal Rinpoche saved and healed my life with his wisdom and kindness. He constantly inquired about why I was so fearful and in pain all the time – and then he didn’t get tired of showing me ways to heal, until I truly got it.
    The reason I have decided to come forward with my story should be pretty obvious. The Sogyal Rinpoche that I met is nothing like the portrait painted by some of the people posting on this website.
    My story is far from unique. While it is true that there are many women around Rinpoche, there are also many men. I know them all. All of them feel that Rinpoche has tremendously benefited their lives and has never caused them any harm. In fact, there are literally thousands of people who can say that Rinpoche has helped them enormously. I can’t say that Rinpoche never behaves in a provocative fashion; I can only say that I never saw him act in a way that was not based on compassion and care. I believe I have spent enough close personal time with him to state it definitively.

    3. Mary Finnigan, on July 6, 2009 at 8:46 pm said:
    “Apologies if this seems cynical — but I doubt the truth of Survivor’s story. I’d put money on it as a fabrication from the Rigpa PR dept. There are many phrases here that crop up on Rigpa web sites. But then perhaps he can keep it zipped now and agin. Anything is possible.”

    4. Disillusioned, on July 6, 2009 at 10:07 pm said:
    “Mary, I find it shocking that you immediately dismiss the truth of Survior’s story in such a vulgar fashion. I’ve been following this thread quietly until now to try to figure out what is the truth, but if that is the way a woman who supposedly cares for the well being of other women reacts when another woman (Survivor) shares her personal story of childhood rape and abuse, then it leads me to believe that you do not really care about any of these women themselves, but more about your own personal agenda. You are doing a disservice to your cause, to the purpose of Dialogue Ireland (which I thought was supposed to be dialogue), and the women you supposedly represent.”

    5. Fairplay, on July 10, 2009 at 10:09 am said:
    “Like others writing here I am not usually a contributor to internet chat sites, however, having read through the posts above I felt that the need to add my own experience of Sogyal Rinpoche and Rigpa to be considered along with the other points of view. I’m not interested in challenging particular posters here, however, there are things written here that I know personally to be completely untrue.
    Like many people in Ireland, I experienced physical, emotional, sexual and spiritual abuse as a child. Years of therapy and guidance supported me in healing the deep trauma of my experience, and I went on to train as a therapist myself. I have a well honed and sharp instinct for sensing abusers and sexual predators. In this area of my life I am no innocent and certainly nobody’s fool.
    I first met Sogyal Rinpoche at a retreat in the UK. My single memory of this retreat is ‘sitting in silence’ with Rinpoche, awestruck at the atmosphere of peace and calm, and for the first time in my life experienced my mind opening to a place of freedom, expansiveness and the most profound sense of peace. This was the moment that all the pain of my childhood dissolved into what I can only describe crudely as a place beyond my suffering that was completely well and utterly untarnished by any tough experience. My healing had truly begun. I have never forgotten it.
    This is the reason I have carried on over the years attending Rigpa retreats in Ireland and the UK (and from other traditions too). Many times I have experienced this same feeling sitting with Rinpoche and it leaves me in no doubt as to the authenicity of his accomplishment and his power as a teacher and practitioner.
    I am no Rigpa poodle, have no vested interest in its operations, other than to admire and be inspired by its many projects. How on earth can the building of a centre to support people at the time of their death be considered in a negative light?
    To sit and practice with Sogyal Rinpoche has been the greatest joy for me on any retreat. To read from some of the posters that he doesnt practice or do silent sitting just makes me smile sadly at the utter untruth of it. For the record Rinpoche even sat with people at a pubic talk in Ireland (over 700 people attended) a few years ago! On every retreat I have ever attended with Rinpoche, sitting and practising with him has been a central part of the schedule.
    Sogyal Rinpoche is clearly unconventional in how he works with his students. This I have seen myself on many occasions. However, I can only go on my own experience of witnessing this being done in the most compassionate way. My life has been transformed by being fortunate enough to meet Sogyal Rinpoche and the teachings. It would be a crying shame if any of the critical postings prevented someone from benefiting from them too.
    Sogyal Rinpoche is truly an authentic and accomplished master. This I know deep in my heart because of countless experiences over the years of witnessing the clarity and power of his teachings, and the inner transformation that they have brought in my own mind. This is ultimately what I rely on and as I said I am nobody’s fool.”

    6. Mary Finnigan, on July 10, 2009 at 11:36 am said:
    “Fairplay — your account is very touching and it would be churlish to take issue with it. But please believe me, I have heard from several sources who were close to S that he never does any form of personal practice and never meditates when he is off duty.”

    7. Let’s Be Fair, on July 10, 2009 at 8:11 pm said:
    “The irresponsible, savvy media propagandist who goes under at least two or three monikers on the site, when not writing unique , original treatises on subtle points of buddhist philosophy not found anywhere else, appears to have mastered the talent of spreading misleading information in other areas as well.
    For example, she makes the claim that Chögyal Namkhai Norbu knows everything about the allegations around Sogyal Rinpoche and therefore shuns him. We can assume the part about “knows the allegations against Sogyal Rinpoche” because after His Holiness the Dalai Lama he is the most famous, most discussed lama in the world. I seriously doubt that Kyabjé Trulshik Rinpoche is unaware of them but I digress.
    When Sogyal Rinpoche has been a guest at my home, Chögyal Namkhai Norbu called on at least one or two occasions to say hi. Last summer his son came to visit Lerab Ling bringing a boat load of gifts for Sogyal Rinpoche. But don’t take my word for it.
    Here is a link to photo of Sogyal Rinpoche and Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche together taken from last fall.

    You were mistaken about your claim for who authored TBLD. You were wrong about the terms of the settlement of the lawsuit (which you have posted other places). You were wrong about Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche a master you claimed to now quite well. Your explanation of “altered states” was at least original.
    What kind of a journalist does this kind of shoddy research?
    So savvy media professional/propagandist, explain why we are supposed to believe anything you say?”

    8. bellaB, on October 29, 2009 at 12:26 pm said:
    “The differences between my knowledge of SR and Pema’s given information:
    – SR does practice, many hours daily
    – many have received blessings from him and his teachings have helped people a lot
    – nobody, who doesn’t work in Rigpa can just walk and talk to him. I have known him for 9 years and sometimes I have questions for him. Either I give my question to an older student on a paper. Or if I needed to see him I’m always taken care of by older students and accompanied by them to see Sogyal Rinpoche after the teaching at the door in public space. It’s just not possible to be on your first (nor 10th) retreat and end up in his bed. The scene is totally different. “

    Like

  34. 1. Mary Finnigan, on May 18, 2009 at 6:36 pm said:
    “Congrautlations Dialogue Ireland. You must have spent many hours on research and writing to produce this item. I have a great deal more hard, corroborated evidence of Sogyal’s sexual depravity, self-indulgence and financial preoccupation.
    There are now more than 30 people willing to join forces to make sure that Sogyal is taken out of circulation as a teacher effectively and permanently. I would be grateful if you could email me any further information that comes your way. I am especially interested in women who are willing to testify about their sexual encounters with Sogyal. Thei anonymity is guaranteed.”

    -> There are 30 people who do not like Sogyal Rinpoche. The dossier is not necessarily about victims.

    39. Tiger Lily, on July 6, 2009 at 1:49 pm said:
    “I have been in contact with Mary Finnigan for a number of years now and have given my permission for her to use my statement of my experience of Rigpa and Sogyal under a pseudonym, Last year she brought to my house the young woman mentioned above who told me of her own time as an attendant “dakini” to Sogyal. I was profoundly shocked. Her account rang true because I had been a girlfriend of Sogyal’s many years ago and knew what he could be like and how the devoted students of Sogyal would cover up his behaviour.”

    -> Victoria Barlow?

    135. Pema, on August 27, 2009 at 7:05 am said:
    “Hi Kapasi,
    If all the women came forward they’d fill the Royal Albert Hall…”

    136. Pema, on August 27, 2009 at 3:06 pm said:
    “And imagine what will happen to S in the bardos…all those screeching harpies….”

    141. Pema, on September 22, 2009 at 4:32 pm said:
    “Sogyal was at Merigar some years ago. I hear that this visit went down like a lead balloon. Apparently he had about 5 people at his *teachings* (plagiarised from ChNN and other lamas) and they were so banal he was laughed off the premises. I don’t have feedback on this latest one yet — but it will happen in due course. When it does I will post again here.”

    4. bellaB, on October 13, 2009 at 8:27 pm said:
    “Is it Sogyal Rinpoche that this person is talking in the article (in RR by MF): “… at the hands of a very ordinary, fat and balding, middle aged man with a penchant for beer, food, praise, TV, and sleep.” I was told by Sogyal Rinpoche in a public teaching that he doesn’t need a lot of sleep, he also cannot drink alcohol, he does practice hours per day, teaches and travels, works daily as the spiritual leader and the boss of the multinational organization called Rigpa… Students can’t have private audiences with him, since he is a BUSY person. I really wonder if the author KNOWS who she/he is talking about… ”

    150. sincere-seeker, on October 27, 2009 at 8:04 am said:
    “At the end of the retreat I filed up onto stage for my blessing, smiling and full of gratitude for what had happened. It was the first time I’d been that close up to him. Expecting to sense the wonderful love that many others raved about, I looked briefly into SR’s eyes and to my horror – saw dark and pure lust – that’s the only way I can describe it.”

    152. Pema, on October 27, 2009 at 10:17 am said:
    “Many thanks Sincere-Seeker for your thoughtful post. It echoes the best that has unfolded here — as more people (mostly women) find courage in numbers to speak about their experiences. I have been appalled and disgusted by the accounts I have heard of sexual relations between Sogyal and (almost invariably) young, pretty women.”

    269. Pema, on December 13, 2009 at 10:05 am said:
    “Many have said it, but I’ll say it again and then end my Sunday morning fun. Bella is stark, staring mad. A truly imrpessive example of the benefits of ‘spirtual’ practice Rugpa style.”

    271. bellaB, on December 13, 2009 at 10:31 am said:
    “If you are sure to win, go to court, take a loan, since your high goal is to destroy SR and save women around the world.
    Think if you went to court 20 years ago, you didn’t need to do all this today. Think if you invested the 20% of your work time to inform people about islam and the daily abuse of women, it might have benefitted much more. But of course you might be living in isolation because of threats to your life.”

    52. dialogueireland, on October 24, 2009 at 3:06 pm said:
    “No here in DI we have received information from 1 Irish woman, (2 years ago) 1 French woman, 12 years ago at the LSE and who observed this personally with other women all over Europe. 1 Woman from the USA contacted us this July about abuse in London about 17 years ago.
    So it does not matter how many times and how many ways you demand people to account to you it WILL NOT HAPPEN.
    SO KEEP LEAVING POSTS IT ONLY HIGHLIGHTS THE ISSUE FURTHER, WE WILL NOT CENSOR……YOU”

    53. bellaB, on October 24, 2009 at 3:16 pm said:
    “OK, so the above post was the first post about actual people. Would be nice to know why they contacted you tho, and not leave public comment for others to see? How could YOU help them?”

    54. bellaB, on October 24, 2009 at 3:25 pm said:
    “By publishing the actual stories, any reader could compare it to the reality of retreats and draw conclucions, if the story sounds authentic or not.”

    18. Mary Finnigan, on July 5, 2009 at 10:20 am said:
    “Newspapers are so undermanned/womanned these days they don’t have time or resources to conduct in depth investigations.”

    -> Therefore nobody has time to check her stories in the Gurdian!

    I read old posts and still agree with my own statements, after 2 years.

    There’s no way in believing ‘stories’ of anybody if you cannot read them and verify them in real life. With the BSThankaBlog I could do it and that is why it’s easy to see and check that the information is false.

    If Mary Finnigan would publish her dossier, we could do the same: read and verify. If the BSThankaBlog was her dossier, then that’s the end of it for me.

    313. bellaB, on December 14, 2009 at 5:54 pm said:
    “Okay. I leave my post as the only lonely (unofficial) representative of Rigpa. My post is open for the next courageous Rigpa student. I hope he/she will be more qualified than me, knows much more and is able to explain things much better (and in English).
    I would rather read somebody else’s trials to defend many sided conversation. But I will be here following these pages. If I see something that I really think is grossly false information, I will say it. So, I can’t say I’m gone, even if you don’t hear from me. But I really hope somebody else more knowledgeable will come to speak their mind. It’s hard to receive the hate that stems from events that have nothing to do with you.”

    -> I’m glad Sheila has showed up. Whatever the outcome.

    Like

  35. Guest,

    I await compassionate_warrior’s, Victoria Barlow’s, LStev3234’s, Dragon’s, and Mary Finnigan’s clarifications/adjustments/reversals of the allegations they made against removed.

    From what I can see, Evelyn Ruut is the only one coming close to having made a direct public statement adjusting her earlier allegations, although she was clarifying her opinion on the veracity of Victoria Barlow as a witness, and did not say specifically how this change in opinion affected her feelings on the individual men accused by that witness.

    Victoria Barlow continues to levy her allegations, as recently as several weeks ago on this very forum. Mary Finnigan’s endorsement of him in A Kalachakra Diary and The Guardian imply a reversal of opinion, although without explanation as to why.

    I cannot answer for them – if they choose to explain themselves, that would be welcome, but it is their choice, not mine.

    Like

  36. Guest,

    “Bella, you deny everything-all is BS-what a surprise”

    I deny things I KNOW are untrue.

    Have you been in Rigpa? What do you KNOW? You just believe blindly what MF writes.

    Like

  37. Marte Im very sorry to hear you have suffered so much

    Bella, you deny everything-all is BS-what a surprise

    Sheila, you do not have the courage to apologise even when you yourself know you were wrong

    Giulia Your statements concerning Nyingma doctirne remain unconfirmed, as they will in the future. That makes you, at best mistaken, at worst, a liar

    Like

  38. Guest,

    maybe you didn’t read very carefully. I haven’t considered Sheila’s talk nor research as BS, on the contrary: She is the only one here who doesn’t just sit back and look at the accusations with lenses given by Mary Finnigan. She is very efficient in working with what everybody has said, who are the people behind pseudonyms and so on.

    I’m too lazy to point you to the slanderous style MF uses here in the early threads. It’s far from journalistic style or ethics. Because of those early posts I have begun questioning all her posts and ‘information’ she provides. I have also asked her repeatedly to open up her dossier to us so we can look at her ‘evidence’. She could simply remove the names and publish the stories. She doesn’t. Either the reasons for refusing it are that
    a) there is nothing in her dossier
    b) she is herself not 100% convinced of the stories
    c) the stories are so vague, that we could easily say that they are not reliable
    d) the stories are not severe and we could consider the woman’s own decisions

    If Mary Finnigan wrote the Behind the Thankas -blog (like someone – Sheila? – here said MF has written it) it shows to me clearly that she is totally mad. All those rumors and the slanderous talk are BS in the blog.

    I read it and saw how outrageous it was. I spoke with a good friend of mine who happens to know Rigpa workers mentioned in the blog – and he confirmed me that these stories are made up. Could be that there was a ‘spy’ for Mary Finnigan in some retreat who marked down all the names of the workers and created these ugly stories?

    My friend also said that WHO would make an anonymous blog and mention names of her ‘so called harem friends’ and would leave her own name unmentioned? This already shows the immoral nature of these people.

    Like

  39. Not of alleged abuse, but of abuse, yes, for a while, then the diagnosis changed to Postraumatic Stress Disorder and Trance -and Obsession-Phenomena. That was the result of a violently opened Kundalini.

    I got many attests of this kind of abuse by my therapist, so I could do what I wanted to do: I reported to the police and now the prosecution is just investigating because of grievous bodily harm.

    Nothing more is to say here.

    Like

  40. Marte

    You state that you lectured psychatrists on the subject of “The Emergence of a Multiple Personality by Misabuse of Trance-and Hypnosistechnics in Tantric-Tibetan Buddhism”

    Is it true to say that you have been diagnosed as suffering from multiple personality disorder as a result of your alleged abuse?

    Like

  41. Dear Bella

    Since you are clearly not in the UK you are not privilege to the current UK governments inquiry into media ethics. In the course of the inquiry, the protective measures UK newspapers take to ensure they dont get sued have been routinely spoken.

    All national newspapers in the UK have their own team of in-house lawyers. These lawyers scrutinize every potentially contentious story to ensure that they are not going to be sued in court for defamation, slander etc.

    In order to ensure this is the case, these newspapers go further. For a story to run, the veracity of any allegations contained in the story must be confirmed by a signed legal affidavit, wherein witnesses make a legal declaration before an advocate, that their story is true to the best of their knowledge.

    In the run up to this, as a story is being prepared, professional journalists do all that they can to ensure that their story is fact by seeking out confirmation/corroboration for any statements made from multiple, rather than single sources

    These are just some of the lengths newspapers in the UK go to to ensure that they are legally protected from litigation; more importantly, they go to these measures to ensure that whatever stories they print are factual and true

    You ask that I “practice the same diligence in looking at the accusations. What are the reliable sources? Just use the same logic in your request for KNOWLEDGE.” I suggest to you that you bear in mind that the allegations against Sogyal have been through the process outlined above several times, notably at the hands of the legal teams of the Guardian, the Telegraph and the Times, the three most reputable broadsheet newspapers in the UK, who employ some of the brightest legal minds in the world to work for them. I think the diligence these newspapers have practiced before printing their stories is sufficient. Clearly, you do not

    As for “Sheila is doing it”, ie practicing “the same diligence in looking at the accusations. (asking “What are the reliable sources”? Sheila launched an extremely intrusive personal attack on the morality of HH Sakya Trizin based on the evidence of one person, Victoria Barlow, whom I believe you have referred to as ‘a liar’ and whose claims are, according to you ‘total BS’.There seems to be something amiss with your conclusions about Sheila’s competency therefore

    I wonder if the fact that your opinion of Sheila is a competent researcher might have something to do with her recent statement that “at this point I believe the allegations against Sogyal Rinpoche are also inaccurate”. I imagine it must be because up until that point you described her opinions as ‘BS’.

    Could it be that you are angry at me for pointing out that you have expressed little or no concern for the victims of abuse and that your sole reason for being here is to defame all critics of SR and to deny all allegations against him..It certainly looks that way, doesnt it?

    Like

  42. For whomever of this forum it makes feel better:
    My friend, the ex-monk RN was together, in country T, with two brother Rinpoches, both married to a Tibetan woman. They were all having whiskey and joints (i.e. marihuana), says Armani Rinpoche to Moustache Rinpoche: “Marry, you marry a Tibetan, but for sex, Western women are best”. They all agreed.

    (oh, I forgot to say the password to this forum: “SR is a dog” (I am a metal ox)

    Like

  43. Is you imagination doing you some tricks?

    No, bellaB, it is not. To explain how threatening works after beeing set in trance and hypnosis it would be necessery to speak about post-hypnotic orders who are working then. It is imagination, but it was deliberately put in there.
    I hold a lecture in front of Psychiatrists and Psychotherapists in 2008, “The Emergence of a Multiple Personality by Misabuse of Trance-and Hypnosistechnics in Tantric-Tibetan Buddhism”, it is not translated into English yet.

    The German version you find here:

    http://marte-micaela-riepe.blogspot.com/2011/10/die-entstehung-einer-multiplen.html

    Before Nydahl violently opened my Kundalini – that was a longer process -, he made the control-mudra in my direction during a course. I did not know, what it meant to be. Now I can say, his plan to make me a by him controlled Dharma-protector did not work, but this was among other things his aim.

    Read the text of the Kurukulla-ritual, that is, what the consort should work for.

    Trinley Thaye and Nydahl lost her faces because the could not control me, they could not spellbind me through their rituals. We western women have that much capabilities to get out of that all, and when I finished my Trauma-therapy all the haunting had gone. I am a much stronger person than both of them.

    Like

  44. In looking up that piece of text in “Words of mpt” I stumbled on an interesting passage: “the 17th and 18th hells are the black and red hat Karmapas”; why, I wonder why that is? They don’t seem to get (or actually did get) “oral transmission”, actually, I mean the right meaning thereof?

    Like

  45. Shiela, DI has posted since I last did. They wrote:
    “1997 I hear French woman at Inform conference
    2007 Irish woman reports sexual assault to DI”

    Seems clear enough to me.

    Like

  46. Guest,

    You ask textual references for Tibetan Buddhist texts.

    I ask you to practice the same diligence in looking at the accusations. What are the reliable sources? Just use the same logic in your request for KNOWLEDGE. Sheila is doing it. You just worry for Buddhist doctrine. What about people here? Who is a holder of the knowledge? State his or her name (or pseudonym) and the reference text.

    Like

  47. So everybody is lying and your not guilty and neither are any of those who have been accused of abuse. Clearly youve done a lot of investigation and soul searching.

    Sorry Sheila but your conclusions hold about as much weight as Julias allegations concerning the Nyingma texts. They, and you are totally lacking in credibility

    If you cannot apologise for your falsehoods, at least you should request that DI retract their malicious content from their site, especially since you (for now) acknowledge their falsity

    Like

  48. Mikaela,

    did this exactly happen to you with the Danish citizen Ole Nydahl:

    “As I wrote: You cannot say “No” to a tantric master like I did without to be cursed and to be set in terrible fear.”

    Sounds a bit ‘much’ to me. I can’t imagine a Danish person cursing or threatening someone like that…! Is you imagination doing you some tricks?

    Like

  49. Well – the solitary French woman, then, figures very largely in our discussion; yet Inform doesn’t even allude to her. I remain curious at this apparent difference in perspective as to the weight of her testimony.

    Unless a video or audio recording was made of her speech/approach/conversation/report, secondary parties reporting they heard her say something amounts only to hearsay. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen or that it isn’t important – it simply means her testimony basically won’t count, at this point largely because we cannot even legally establish that she exists.

    And a good thing, too, otherwise you or I could at any moment be jailed for “something someone says they heard someone say.”

    I’m not sure why people here are getting testy with me; I am diligently attempting to make this whole picture clearer. If the clear picture is in fact what you are after, you should be happy about this–yet DI promises me I will “go away.”

    I just don’t feel you guys are that serious about making any of this real. I feel that you want to go the easy route–splashing allegations all over internet forums, but when called to task, you don’t want to do the serious, legal work necessary to turn the allegations into legal, public record. And when someone shows up who is in fact interested enough to try and make things at least slightly clearer, you get nervous (or that’s how it seems to me).

    I’ve already given my personal position on removed–I said I didn’t believe the allegations. I’ll now add that I agree with Mary Finnigan that the allegations against removed are inaccurate, and finally I will say that at this point I believe the allegations against Sogyal Rinpoche are also inaccurate.

    So, I’m back to where I started, asking, “Why are these allegations really being made?”

    That’s the question of the day.

    Like

  50. DI,

    in your link:

    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2009/04/07/briefing-document-on-sogyal-rinpoche/

    “Somehow and thus far, much of the rather disturbing information about Sogyal’s exploits has remained hidden, beyond the scrutiny of the public eye.”

    This is all what you got out of the Seminar where you met the French woman?

    The rest on that page is the same old BS from MF and VB.

    As extra there is a story about the ‘innocent shrink’, who claims that newbies are fed to SR for sex. That is crap.

    One of the shrinks who permanently work in Lerab Ling, has her own daughter cooking for SR. She would never let her daughter be in a bad situation! Most of your “information” is complete BS.

    Like

  51. Thats very convenient. “maybe it was oral transmission”-you seemed so certain. And the other book is in India, you say. How unfortunate

    I have checked my copy of the Patrul text and I find NOTHING-Please give the name of the text by Kyabje Dudjon Rinpoche as I can check it myself.

    So far though, I suggest the reason you have not (and will not) found or find them is because they are COMPLETE FABRICATIONS (Lies) I am sure DI will remove your email if you ask.
    In the short term, you might ask that they remove your comments with regards to the precious teachings of the Nyingma tradition, unless you can substantiate your claims

    Like

  52. Well, well, well, at one point I am scolded here because I react so promptly and write a lot, at another point I merely turn my back to do a small task and am threatened to be “deleted”.
    I have gone through a few major points of Words of my perfect teacher and have not found the reference yet, but will look more, and will also check the notes of the Vajrakilaya drupchens at Chanteloube: maybe it was oral transmission? The book about the vows by Dudjom Rinpoche I have left in India as I had borrowed it from the neighbours, so can’t look it up.

    Like

  53. It clearly was not a separate incident, try llistening to Di, NOT Vera’s account of what DI experienced
    Your retraction/apology?

    Like

  54. Vera stated that it was DI who was approached. I’m asking whether that was a separate incident, as I agree with you that “DI being approached” does not sound the same as someone making public speeches.

    Like

  55. Giulia, have you found the references yet?

    Like

  56. Sheila, the person who defamed the Sakya Trizin was you-In the law of most civilised democracies, the fact that you repeat others slanders in writing does not mean you are not liable for libel-repeating libels is as much a crime as producing them

    Like

  57. Sheila
    All references to a ‘meeting’ are BLINDINGLY obviously to the one at which DI was in attendance in 1997. No ‘report’ was distributed, only a speech madeIs that clear?. If you cant see this from reading the repeated responses to the same question you have been asking over and over again, then I suggest you stop wasting peoples time by posting here. (After your apology/retraction)

    Dont you see the ridiculousness of this comment?

    I dont need to know who it is, “I simply need to establish which anonymous person we’re discussing so things can be made a little clearer.”????

    Anonymous was very rude to people here, questioning their sanity. I am beginning to think he/she was actually being quite objective.

    Like

  58. Giulia, if those who made the statements defaming removed wish to clarify their position, I welcome it.

    Like

  59. AFAICS you have a deep rooted tendency to misinterpret everything you ss/hear/read Sheila. if you think you are ‘sorting it out’ I am afraid you are in a minority of one.
    I would repeat the already repeated request for your apology for baselessly defaming the Sakya Trizin, which you have obviously inadvertently omitted

    Like

  60. Vera states, “It was DI that was approached by someone who claimed to have been abused”

    DI states, “I did not say I received a report. I was at the seminar did not need receive a report.”

    Is the incident Vera refers to a separate one?

    Like

  61. Folks, if you have no patience for making these cases clear, you have no hope of bringing them to the wider public, who will no doubt have less interest and less personal time to devote to sorting it out than I.

    Like

  62. DI, are you saying this was not at the Inform event then, but on another occasion? Inform made no mention of this woman in their summary.
    We have published a copy of the programme of that Conference. I told you to stop asking us these questions and acting like an innocent.I was there and you must ask Inform why they do not reference their own seminar in their dossier!
    Phone
    Call
    Telephone
    Call Suzanne and ask your questions or have you no phone credit!!
    Stop taking up our time!
    We will soon have a new post and you will be out of here. I promise
    I’m not saying you didn’t receive this report from the woman you mention; I’m saying Inform made no mention of it. I have no idea why.
    I did not say I received a report. I was at the seminar did not need receive a report. I heard it in stereo.
    Mise
    Me
    No report there in person capito!

    Like

  63. Giulia claimed according to “Word of my perfect teacher” by Patrul Rinpoche and a book about vows by Dudjom Rinpoche, Tibetan women had to and all women have to oblige when a Rinpoche or abbot sends for her and wants her in his bed.”
    I asked for the reference. She has not provided it. To ‘prove’ the validity of her claims, you have provided a quote which, if read by someone intent on accusing Buddhism of being abusive, would certainly seem to substantiate their views. On the other hand, if read from a number of other perspectives, it would not. One might just as easily argue that an admonishment to ‘please ones guru’ was an instruction to have sex with him. Indeed, throughout religious traditions there are similar doctrines that can be interpreted in such a way by those who are intent on doing so. (But in far less sinister ways by the many who are not) i repeat, Giulia has made a serious allegation but has failed to provide evidence of its truth. The allegation was very specific, she citing specific texts. Where then are the references? Indeed, I would be grateful for any reference from any Tibetan text which says “women have to oblige when a Rinpoche or abbot sends for her and wants her in his bed”
    Those who are prepared to condemn relgions should at least be able to produce evidence that their supposed flaws actually feature in their scriptures. Otherwise, the whole debate here becomes meaningless.
    So, where is Giulia’s ‘evidence’ (and where is Sheilas apology?)

    Like

  64. “It was DI that was approached by someone who claimed to have been abused”

    DI describes it this:

    “I met the woman once at the LSE in 1997 where she participated with a French woman in describing in the presence of a number of academics that what we have here was the true position.”

    And,

    “Sheila has also managed to forget I was at the meeting and heard the French woman explain in detail this abuse of power”

    And,

    “I did reference the LSE and Inform known for their value free approach. They could confirm what I heard in 1997.”

    If I read this correctly, the French woman did not approach DI privately, but gave her testimony in public, such that Inform and a number of academics could confirm it.

    DI, by “meeting” do you refer to the Inform seminar itself? In other words, was the woman one of the speakers there?

    I don’t need her name, Marte, I simply need to establish which anonymous person we’re discussing so things can be made a little clearer. Inform has not mentioned her, so that makes it necessary to ask these questions in order to establish her role.

    Like

  65. DI,
    it is seriously meant?

    She was asked to give scriptural references and she just ignored that request.
    We are not denying her right to say she was abused and an attempted murder took place.
    show us the money as the Guest requested. She just can’t keep giving tales of bras being got into and suggesting she lost academic preferment due to
    not sleeping with the prof!
    Cite or be deleted on random texts. did you not see the request which she avoided?

    Like

  66. Even Dialogue Ireland believed the testimonies on the grounds of the Irish woman, who turned out to be French, who experienced “mental abuse” or experienced things as “mental abuse” that were happening to others. Those others may not suffer but see it as teaching, so she is judging other people’s experiences.
    1997 I hear French woman at Inform conference
    2007 Irish woman reports sexual assault to DI
    Bella mixes up intentionally to drag us off the thread. No way!
    We know what we have seen and heard and we pass them onto you!

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  67. “Sheila 1997 I heard a former assistant inform us at a conference on NRMs and violence that she was subject to horrendous abuse, physical, mental and spiritual”

    DI, are you saying this was not at the Inform event then, but on another occasion? Inform made no mention of this woman in their summary.

    I’m not saying you didn’t receive this report from the woman you mention; I’m saying Inform made no mention of it. I have no idea why.

    Vera – thank you for helping to clear this up – I appreciate it very much.

    DI, the former assistant is the French woman, correct? I am not saying she doesn’t exist – I’m simply saying Inform did not include her existence in the Rigpa allegations summary they sent me. They referred only to a person who had heard about abuse of others (I believe this is Mary Finnigan, as you’ve stated you met her at that Inform conference).

    Inform does reference France, but only in the following statement: “Recent unpublished academic research in France suggests that there are a number of women with allegations of a similar nature, who do not wish to be identified or press charges.”

    But “recent” doesn’t sound to me like 1997. Appreciate anyone helping to sort this out. As you can see, I’m trying to gather details, not exclude them.

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  68. DI,
    it is seriously meant?

    “Giulia you have been asked to supply textual arguments for the position you have proposed. I will have to start deleting your random thoughts to retain some order unless you reply pretty soon.”

    Why do you set her under pressure? She posted a lot of wise analyses here and I can`t see “this give me, ive me citation” so urgent to get DI in.

    There are a lot of experiences and testimonies from Tibetan women or other women of the regions Tibetan Tantrism is endemic about sexual abuse in that way Giulia describes.

    As I wrote: You cannot say “No” to a tantric master like I did without to be cursed and to be set in terrible fear.

    Quote from Kurukulla-Ritual, it is said to the consort, I know it because I was one:

    Please remember all your excellent vows,
    Help me to gain all the attainments.
    Get rid of all bad conditions and death,
    Destroy all my obstacles and demons.
    Purify all terrible dreams and bad omens.
    Protect us from all dangerous risks.
    Help to make peace and rich harvests for all,
    Plenty of all kinds of corn and Dharmas.
    And may all good pleasures be helped by you.
    Do help me to fulfill all my best wishes.
    Those who have been divined to darkness
    And cannot understand all the Tantras,
    Not able to hear and see this secrecy,
    Please leave here and go to the place where you belong.
    If you don’t take my advice right now,
    I shall use the powerful and fiery Vajra
    To destroy your head into may pieces!!

    That´s the way a tantric master abuses a woman in secret cultish rituals and threatened her, if she is not willing. Old tibetan style of abusing women`s power!

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  69. Guest,

    what point did you raise?

    “not once mentioning the actual issue I raised”

    I have been writing here for 2 years – and if you mentioned some point I have heard many times before, I might have ignored it.

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  70. Guest,

    “Bella has no compassion for victims of abuse.”

    This is again stupid.

    If you saw what Sheila has been doing is counting the actual ‘testimonies’ and now we are in the process of evaluating them.

    It’s not as vague as Finnigan repeats: dozens of victims.

    That has not been proven anywhere.

    The more and more one investigates all this, it seems to come down to very little evidence, or not at all.

    Even Dialogue Ireland believed the testimonies on the grounds of the Irish woman, who turned out to be French, who experienced “mental abuse” or experienced things as “mental abuse” that were happening to others. Those others may not suffer but see it as teaching, so she is judging other people’s experiences.

    It seems like very little or no credible evidence exists about the sexual abuse. At least I haven’t seen credible testimonies appearing. The Behind Thanka is somebody’s (Marys) nightmare – the details are laughable. My friend knows those people and told me they do not belong to any harem.

    There’s too much BS around this issue that I believe the main person, the catalyst, to be a disturbed or sick somehow. What could motivate writing such a blog? Only Chinese have a political reason. Mary could have a personal issue. It’s hard to understand.

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  71. “Violence to women>>>>>>power>>>> use sex for it. verbal violence masking as great teaching methods.
    One I remember. Get my white shirt. She gets the white shirt. I told you to bring my yellow shirt…. Get it violence to woman in the guise of spiritual benefit.”

    No one listened to me before, so again:

    From the view of a tantric master:

    “There is a moment, when all hope goes by, all proud vanishs, all expectation, all faith, all longing. That moment is mine. Than I listen to the tone of a flawing soul.

    It is not a loud cracking sound like splintering bones, when a spine is breaking or a skull is bursting. And also not smooth and moist like a breaking heart. It is a tone when someone asks how much pain can a human sustain; a tone, which is dashing to pieces the mind and letting the past seep into present, a tone so high that only the dogs of hell can listen to.

    Do you hear that? Someone has curled up like a tiny sphere and is crying noiseless into an endless night.”

    So it was.

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  72. “The Inform office gave me a summary only – there were no personal names other than Sogyal Rinpoche’s.”

    Yes, of course! What did you expect? You wanted some names of the victims? Who do you think you are?

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  73. Giulia you have been asked to supply textual arguments for the position you have proposed. I will have to start deleting your random thoughts to retain some order unless you reply pretty soon.
    do not build on sand to quote Jesus. The citizens of Amsterdam are there to disprove that rule. Please show us where your building’s foundations are to be found?

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  74. “according to “Word of my perfect teacher” by Patrul Rinpoche and a book about vows by Dudjom Rinpoche, Tibetan women had to and all women have to oblige when a Rinpoche or abbot sends for her and wants her in his bed”

    WHERE?.

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  75. Giulia, your response does not contain any clear reference to the alleged passages you claim to have ‘cited’ Please, either provide them or admit that they are a figment of your imagination.Claiming authoritative Buddhist texts that inform the traditions contain such nonsense is highly damaging and disingenuous

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  76. https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2009/04/07/briefing-document-on-sogyal-rinpoche/
    Did I not suggest you phone them directly and ask them these questions. stop trailing your coat here.
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2009/04/07/briefing-document-on-sogyal-rinpoche/

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  77. DI led me to believe that a woman approached Inform and told them about abuse that she, herself, experienced from Sogyal Rinpoche.
    Stop playing the innocent abroad for the last time, as you actually sicken me with your deceit.
    I was present at an Inform seminar where this French woman told he story as part of a NRMs and violence seminar.
    You know this from the dossier, from a comment a few below. As we say in Ireland stop acting the maggot!
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2009/04/07/briefing-document-on-sogyal-rinpoche/

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  78. “Guest”: I have branded certain persons as murderers because I think they might be very dangerous people.
    I have branded a certain person as blocking my dharma-path for the reason I want it to be unblocked.
    Is that clear?

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  79. Another useful topic for discussion: the so-called “secrecy” that women apparently must keep after having sex with a lama. What do we think and how do we feel about that?
    My opinion: after I had sex with someone, I do not exactly write a letter to a newspaper nor place an add, but it is SO nice to share good or bad stories with best friends/colleagues; without this, the experience is half as good (or with this, it is only half as bad).

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  80. Shiela, you said: “Inform does not make any mention of having been approached by anyone claiming that they themselves were abused. They do mention being approached by one person who claimed Sogyal had “used” and “abused” other people.”

    It was DI that was approached by someone who claimed to have been abused, and this was when the Mary Mcwotsit (president of Eire) visited Rigpa. Read back on DI’s posts and you will see you mis-read it and thought they had informed Inform. DI was present at the meeting where the French assistant spoke about her abuse. Two seperate things-hope this clarifies your misunderstanding

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  81. “I would like to add to this: according to “Word of my perfect teacher” by Patrul Rinpoche and a book about vows by Dudjom Rinpoche, Tibetan women had to and all women have to oblige when a Rinpoche or abbot sends for her and wants her in his bed.”

    Giulia, since the only reliable translation of the Kunzang Lamai Zhelung by Patrul Rinpoche is the Padmakara translation, please provide the page number for this citation. Alternatively, if you cannot, a chapter number and subheading from either the Tibetan or English versions would be sufficient. best of all , could you please provide both quotes? Thes are serious allegations and, since I have recieved the transmission of Dza Patrul’s work and have no recollection whatsoever of such an admonishment, I really think you ought to provide it. Anyone can say ‘Such and such a text says…..’ and then, in the vacuum of unknowing that surrounds Tibetan religion, insert whatever nonsense they wish. I suggest this is the case here, unless you can prove otherwise.

    Furthermore, I”t would be useful and in the interest of the dharma we progress a little bit here and move on from branding certain persons” sounds good to me. I would point out that you have been one of the principle perpetrators of this.

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  82. It would be useful and in the interest of the dharma we progress a little bit here and move on from branding certain persons.

    I would like to put up for discussion: What makes somebody / a teacher / a lama “an abuser”.
    I mean: it has happened to me that men have bluntly proposed sex out of the blue. I just said: “No”; such a guy I do not consider an “abuser”.

    It has also happened to me that my professor has left me in limbo as to whether he was going to hire me and told me: “It is not sure yet at all whether you are going to have that job, your knowledge on the subject is meagre. In fact, I feel alone in bed at night since my wife spends 4 days a week at a research institute in another part of the country. You should come and join me in the evenings and I will polish your knowledge on the subject up.” This professor also told a student at a party: “Your paper/thesis is not so good, I would give it a low mark, but” (and at this point he inserted one hand in her bra and another in her panties) “we can do something about that”. Now, THIS for me is “abuse”.

    We must discuss here what we consider abuse.

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  83. I want to thank Dharmadamsel for the enumeration of reasons for which lamas might view Western women as “easy” or “loose”. I would like to add to this: according to “Word of my perfect teacher” by Patrul Rinpoche and a book about vows by Dudjom Rinpoche, Tibetan women had to and all women have to oblige when a Rinpoche or abbot sends for her and wants her in his bed. No doubt this strange rule also has contributed to the ways in which they deal with women.

    Furthermore, a certain tulku Tenzin (a terton who should be around 30 years old now) told me that “a certain lama” (whom I happen to know) has told the young tulkus to “sleep with as many Western women as possible”. Believe me, I have used the opportunity to teach him a good lesson.

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  84. Bellas response is exactly to character, As Sankappa said ( I think??) all you appear to be interested in is defending SR. The allegations against SR are everywhere and there has been little/no response from RIGPA or SR himself. This leads most people to the conclusion that the allegations are true, as does the multiple media coverage, without response, of his allegations. However, the allegations against the Sakya Trizin stem from one person, several times repeated in different guises and so I questioned the actions of the poster concerned, Sheila, who has yet to respond (with what I expect to be an attack and certainly will not be an apology or a retraction, despite the gravity of her actions)

    In response, Bella turns it into yet another opportunity to attack SRs critics, not once mentioning the actual issue I raised, not even once. It certainly strikes me that, as others pointed out, Bella has no compassion for victims of abuse. nor does she care about allegations against anyone other than her seemingly god-like teacher who can clearly do no wrong in her eyes. All she is here for is to deny any criticisms of SR and to malign others, both his critics and his victims

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  85. Dialogueireland: “Sheila is delaying moving on” — completely and totally agree.

    Dharmadamsel: “Victims may be reluctant to report a rape because they are embarrassed, fear reprisals and public disclosure, or think they won’t be believed.”
    Yes, and what stinges me, especially, that somebody with a Rinpoche name, red robes, male, Asiatic (i.e. the young Kalu, who I happen to like) is believed instantly when he says he was abused by a Tibetan lama and Barlow et al. are not (Sheila even tried to depict ME as the OPposite of a victim!!!).
    What also stinges me, is the idea that many lamas seem to think they can treat us badly and bring us down whereas they themselves take on high airs.

    Sankappa: I think it is indeed gross, the idea that somebody reporting on the behaviour of X is a spy for the enemy government of X. I myself have once pressed charges, together with some other people, against a professor of mine who had abused his position of power with women. Does this mean I am against the university?? Does this mean I am an anti-Dutch spy?? OF COURSE not! Rather the opposite: if I want a job at a university I should rather ensure that a professor that resents me because “I did not want him” blocks my opportunities.
    And I think a similar thing might have happened with Karmapa Orgyen Trinley: the fact that I did not want him may have blocked my dharma-path enormously and I think this is SO wrong.

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  86. “I find such hubris astounding, the arrogance of someone who can post such sordid allegations repeatedly then simply change their mind and act as if nothing has happened is beyond belief. Such people should be brought to account and made to explain their actions, in short they should be made to apologise for deliberately and maliciously posting falsehoods. Sheila??”

    I could say the same or worse about Mary Finnigan and Victoria Barlow!

    I meant Sankappa is stupid in this regard that he/she plays games with trivialities because there’s nothing else to say. I don’t meant to say she/he is completely stupid.

    (And I have been called here a psychic vampire, cult member, mad and so on… it’s the nature of this conversation, but of course we could change the tone, at will.)

    Mainly the critics of SR critics are told to leave this page alone. People take the accusations at face value – and when that tendency is questioned, it’s unbearable and we are told to leave.

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  87. As a guest I am sometimes shocked by the rudeness of the people posting here, as above(Perhaps as you have all been conversing for so long, you are all so close as to feel free to insult one another)

    However, far worse than all this are the wild allegations that people make, only to change their positions as if nothing was ever said. Then they carry on without apologising or withdrawing their statements. in particular, Sheila repeated allegations which appear to have all stemmed from Victoria Barlow concerning HH Sakya Trizin. These allegations were questioned and refuted and when Sheila was backed into a corner, she simply changed her position, then suggesting that the allegations were potentially false.No apologies, no admissions of incorrectness, nothing; it was as if she had never said anything critical.

    I find such hubris astounding, the arrogance of someone who can post such sordid allegations repeatedly then simply change their mind and act as if nothing has happened is beyond belief. Such people should be brought to account and made to explain their actions, in short they should be made to apologise for deliberately and maliciously posting falsehoods. Sheila??

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  88. You are stupid, Sankappa: if he was an abuser, he wouldn’t allow therapists to intervene in his abuse cult.

    Do you have any psychological understanding? If MF can fool you, I guess you don’t have a lot of psychological insight.

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  89. “Sogyal Rinpoche has therapists working in Rigpa…” well I’m not surprised

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  90. “French woman explain in detail this abuse of power of which in her mind the sexual dimension was only a minimal part. Her sense was of total humiliation by SR.”

    I asked already earlier on what was the abuse about: mental or sexual. “It’s irrelevant” was the answer.

    It’s irrelevant only because even this “witness”, a French woman (who was supposed to be Irish in the first place), is only hinting toward sexual abuse. It doesn’t convince me that she had ever seen or knows anything related to sexual abuse.

    About “mental abuse”: we all know how SR is. We have seen him hundreds of times, in different “moods (if he even has moods or if they are just the “wrath” he displays for the benefit of beings).

    Sogyal Rinpoche’s behavior is on display publicly, he doesn’t have “another self” like the narcissist types, who look very fine on the outside, but as soon as you are in private corner, the “other side”, the real side emerges, which is an ugly sight. I have experienced it with 2 narcissist bosses.

    One can react to the so called mental abuse in whatever way one wants. Better to choose Theravada, if the rough ride doesn’t suit.

    If building up the personality blocks is not yet done in adulthood, one should focus on that, go to therapy and so on, before attempting to get rid of the ego. Many Tibetan Buddhist lamas in the West have said so: “Western people are messed up and instead of Buddhism, they should first go to therapy”. Sogyal Rinpoche has therapists working in Rigpa, exactly because he has noticed “the mess” and wants to help people.

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  91. I guess we will see, but i think it’s more likely that there will be a critical mass reached where, Sogyal and his ilk are brought to front the legal system again.

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  92. I think at this point, DI, Rock Ross, Mary Finnigan and Victoria Barlow have done what it takes to earn several types of suits, including libel, public disclosure of private facts, and false light (a suite for being portrayed in a false light).

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  93. Here are the follow-up comments to Let’s Be Fairs rot back in 2009. They get to the heart of his deception and dismantle his arguments well:

    “The mandingo effect, on July 7, 2009 at 1:52 pm said:

    I would be ashamed to speak such drivel. what are you saying? ‘We’ are picking on Sogyal because hes a ‘Johnny Foreigner’? What tripe and not the first time Ive seen political correctness used to defend the indefensible. If somebody uses their position to procure innocent young women for sex, promising them it will lead to ‘salvation’, (ie not consensual) that is wrong. Whether, the person is white as the driven snow or has three heads and one foot, its wrong. You should be glad that this site offers the anonymity to make such ridiculous comments; if nyone knew who you were, they would be ashamed to be known associate.
    As Ali G would say ‘Is it because I is black?’
    Doh!, on July 7, 2009 at 2:15 pm said:

    “‘Let’s be fair’,
    Your well written post proves that one should never interpret eloquence as intelligence. Your motivated interpretation of a case of established abuse as a racist witchhunt, is as calculated as it is ridiculous. Fortunately, most people are not that gullible.”

    I have a sneaking suspicion that Let’s be Fair returned recently under the guise of “anon-la”

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  94. No, what motivated me was glaring inaccuracies, discrepancies and outright flimsiness in the “accounts” of alleged abuse, and the inaccuracies in the depiction of Tibetans and Tibetan Buddhism in general.

    I have found a small handful of people who make it literally their daily business to go to multiple forums and tear down Tibetan Buddhism. They post under multiple names, and in some cases are one person who pretends to have a conversation with herself. Seriously, they’ve taken it to unhealthy levels–like, it’s become a way of life.

    You know who else does this? My Chinese colleagues. They go on forums and pretend to have conversations with themselves to shore up “each other’s” points, bashing the west, bashing Buddhism, bashing Tibetans, etc.

    So, what motivated me was finding these same dishonorable tactics being used by a cabal of Western woman on some kind of strange campaign against Tibetans.

    There are more dovetails, mind you – it’s not just this cabal going against “evil Vajrayana” – that’s another favorite cry of the Chinese crowd.

    There are simply too many shared talking points between this Western cabal and the Chinese group to overlook. It may simply be that they are swiping each others’ work – entirely possible.

    I don’t know if cabal is even the right word, since it seems at most to be four women, possible only three.

    Dare I get into the Rick Ross thing–no, I guess I don’t, tonight. I would use far too many un-Buddhist adjectives at this point. Suffice to say, another black recess of false “Christianity” there, and one to which I intend to devote future work exposing.

    This whole thing stinks to high heaven.

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  95. So you are a Sogyal apologist, Sheila. At least we know this now and can understand the motivation behind you attempts to subvert these threads and discredit the main players in opposition to Sogyal, like Finnigan and Barlow.

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  96. What a lame crock of shit. Do you actually buy this!? So this is the lame fallacious shit that actually motivates you, sheila. I’m gobsmacked…

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  97. From DI poster, Let’s Be Fair, 2009:

    “In the 1990s, a group of western Buddhist teachers tried to write up a code of ethics.

    Robert Thurman is quoted: “ I think the Dalai Lama felt any kind of code was premature, and that the teachers were not representative of the Buddhist community as a whole.”

    Author and Naropa Professor Judith Simmer Brown stated: “I doubt the motivation of those who drew up the code. I think there is a power struggle to undermine Asian teachers and put the down, and I don’t want to be a part of that.

    Shockingly, Janice Doe’s lawyer, Theodore Philips, admits that case is not only about personal reparation “but to force the introduction of a code of conduct for teachers…” How could a lawsuit against one person result in people signing the document?

    Later in the article Robert Thurman explains his theory for the attacks against Sogyal Rinpoche:”There is a group of Western Buddhist teachers who feel they should now be honoured and respected themselves as teachers, and who represent a very puritanical tendency. I think they’re envious of the Asian teachers, who maybe misbehave a little bit around the edges, but who are more respected then they are. I’m not saying there is a conspiracy. But there are certainly people who have been abetting this attack.”

    Yvonne Rand speaks for the other side. You can read her comments for yourself. It worth noting several points Yvonne forgot to mention: She has absolutely no training in Tibetan Buddhism, her buddhist group is one of the one’s that lost market share to Asian teachers, she was heavily pushing this code of ethics document, and her lawyer husband was heavily involved in Janice Doe’s defense including finding her attorney. She should have at least clarified that last point and made it clear whether her husband was receiving any money directly or indirectly (for example was Janice Doe’s lawyer sending return business back) from the litigation of the case. In any case Yvonne Rand had a much more complex relationship to the case, some of it related to finance and power, than she let on.

    What is pretty clear is that Yvonne and Bill had plenty of agenda at stake besides taking care of Janice. It is perhaps because of the mixed motivations of the people who filed the case combined with the fact that there was no case there to begin with that it was so easily, quickly, quietly and compassionately settled out of court.”

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  98. Yes but what is a Rand spinoff Sheila? What does it all mean? Please enlighten us to what the hell you are talking about!

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  99. “This is some of the more delusional stuff Sheila posts”

    Let me get this straight – Yvonne Rand does not exist, the Chinese forum link (which I posted) does not exist, and the news reports of official Chinese anger at heads of state meeting foreign leaders also do not exist?

    Methinks you’re the one with the conspiracy theories, m’dear.

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  100. DI led me to believe that a woman approached Inform and told them about abuse that she, herself, experienced from Sogyal Rinpoche.

    Inform has made no mention of this woman, but instead references someone who approached them telling of abuse she heard of others experiencing.

    I am curious about this discrepancy: are there two separate women, or is this in fact the same “approacher,” and DI has misconstrued what she said? Or is there a separate woman which Inform has completely omitted from the Rigpa summary they sent?

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  101. Oh, I forgot to mention one of Sheila’s more outrageous conspiracy theories. Apparently DI you are part of a Rand spinoff, whatever that is:

    “I pretty much get that this is a Rand spinoff, and the Chinese are piggybacking. One caveat, though – the timing of the McAleese thing. The PRC is absolutely livid when any head of state chooses to associate with Tibetan leaders – so whether the Chinese are pushing or pulling remains to be established.”

    This is some of the more delusional stuff Sheila posts in order to distract, discredit and detract from the good work that DI is doing.

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  102. The question originally posed by Giulia was: why do men from a society that is supposed to be altruistic (i.e. a Buddhist society) behave abusively toward women. That’s the question I responded to, sorry if I didn’t repeat it perfectly. That’s really a petty matter, the point is someone requested an analysis of the problem, so I gave mine.

    There was an interesting article on rape in the New York Times last Sunday. It said victims are victimized twice because she/he is “always on trial”. Credibility is always the issue, and the victim often is called a liar. The article defines rape thusly:
    “Victims may not realize that any form of sexual behavior that is not consented to and that causes discomfort, fear, or intimidation is considered sexual assault in most jurisdictions. That includes … unwanted physical contact (including kissing and fondling) and lascivious acts, as well as … rape. A minor cannot legally consent to sexual activity. Nor can a person of any age who is forced or threatened, … incapacitated by drugs or alcohol, unconscious or preparing to undergo a medical procedure.”

    So sex by coercion or intimidation, or by administering alcohol or drugs [hypnosis would be included here] is considered rape by some experts. It’s non-consensual sex.

    “Victims may be reluctant to report a rape because they are embarrassed, fear reprisals and public disclosure, or think they won’t be believed.” In other words, victims of sexual coercion, assault or rape fear exactly the reaction we’re seeing on this forum. So when you ask why there isn’t documentation, why aren’t there more court cases, think about how your own reaction serves to silence victims.

    “The Twice-Victimized of Sexual Assault” by Jane E. Brody

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  103. Thanks DI for making it clear once again that you were actually there. However, it appears your word is still not good enough for Sheila, even now she has the Inform’s account as well. If Sheila were here to truly do research, with an open mind as she claims, then as an honest person, she would be having legitimate doubts about Sogyal’s behavior. But instead all her doubts are against the victims of Sogyal. This shows how disingenuous she is and that her real agenda here is to subvert, undermine, distract and discredit, by creating diversion through conspiracy theories. You have been more then patient with her tactics DI!

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  104. Sheila has also managed to forget I was at the meeting and heard the French woman explain in detail this abuse of power of which in her mind the sexual dimension was only a minimal part. Her sense was of total humiliation by SR. No Bella we know you will say she really did not say it and she was suffering from false memory syndrome.
    Sheila is irrelevant to this post. We will have a new post soon, this thread like the last we closed is about to run its course. Perhaps Sheila while others of us are asleep you could create a Tibetan Stew. By the way I am from Cork and have kissed the Blarney Stone.
    Why would Inform have this Conference on Violence in NRMs if it was not relevant to Rigpa?
    Violence to women>>>>>>power>>>> use sex for it. verbal violence masking as great teaching methods.
    One I remember. Get my white shirt. She gets the white shirt. I told you to bring my yellow shirt…. Get it violence to woman in the guise of spiritual benefit. DOE ray me lala la Telly tubbies

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  105. “Inform does not make any mention of having been approached by anyone claiming that they themselves were abused.”

    Well this is as DI stated, it was a personal assistant of Sogyals who brought the claims before the Inform meeting.

    “They do mention being approached by one person who claimed Sogyal had “used” and “abused” other people.”

    So where do you stand now Sheila, having gained this information via Inform, that a personal assistant to Sogyal claimed they witnessed “use and “abuse” by Sogyal?

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  106. Inform does not make any mention of having been approached by anyone claiming that they themselves were abused. They do mention being approached by one person who claimed Sogyal had “used” and “abused” other people.

    Two exerpts:

    “Rigpa itself claims that it is an ecumenical organisation; it does not rely exclusively on the teachings of Sogyal Rinpoche and invites Buddhist teachers from a variety of perspectives to teach at its retreats. Likewise, it does not rely on one sacred text but refers to a variety of Indian and Tibetan Buddhist texts. Sogyal Rinpoche’s lineage is within the Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism.”

    “It is very difficult to obtain clear objective information about the controversies surrounding Sogyal Rinpoche. Most of the allegations have not been verified and come from anonymous complainants.”

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  107. But is there verification of Sogyal’s abusive behaviour?

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  108. sankappa, it’s simply the law. If you consider the law a diversion, I imagine you’re not alone here.

    The Inform office gave me a summary only – there were no personal names other than Sogyal Rinpoche’s.

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  109. “In other words, it’s difficult to win a libel suit. So if DI fears libel, that would indicate to me that DI has strong suspicions the accusations are untrue – otherwise, there’s simply no reason to fear libel.”

    Sheila, your conspiracy theories and diversionary tactics (red herrings) are becoming more feeble and transparent now. Surely a sign of desperation, as each conspiracy theory you put forward gets shown for what it is.

    You still haven’t answered the question regarding the Inform information you received. Are the claims by Sogyal’s assistant of abuse by Sogyal, verified?

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  110. In other words, it’s difficult to win a libel suit. So if DI fears libel, that would indicate to me that DI has strong suspicions the accusations are untrue – otherwise, there’s simply no reason to fear libel.

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  111. By the way, on can only be sued successfully for libel if what one is saying/publishing can be proven to be libelous–in other words, if it can be shown that it is untrue.

    If DI fears libel, that means DI suspects or fears some of the accusations against removed and/or Sogyal Rinpoche are untrue.

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  112. Could you DI please spell out what do you think is cultist behavior? Detailed description, please. I have wanted to ask this for a long time.

    Sheila didn’t even write here for many hours and you ask her to give you a brake!

    Playing violin for sympathy…? Did she pick up the violin playing to enhance her skills in forming political opinions later in life?

    Do you have a serious views on cultist behavior or is this all children’s games?

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  113. DI, are you saying the libel reference was indeed regarding the removed information Victoria was posting, and not the Sogyal Rinpoche information? That was my question. I don’t presume any conspiracy, just simple precaution.

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  114. Sheila conspiracy is back with another diversion:
    So, was it really worry over HH Sakya Trizin’s office suing for libel that helped shut down the thread=1
    + or possibly worry over Sogyal Rinpoche’s office doing the same?=1 =3!
    THis is not blotting paper, but you Sheila delaying and moving on without addressing scattered items before this. You change and move on and play a violin looking for sympathy.
    I would love to push the delete button, but your continued presence represents the story of cultism- abuse deniers under the guise of altruism and scientific methods. Give us a break!

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  115. MM Riepe: “Of course there are misabuses throughout religious traditions” – exactly and MY point is:

    For people to see clearly these *also* take place in Tibetan buddhism, that the latter is not free from trouble and that *also* buddhist institutes need a clean-out and, furthermore, improvements, e.g. along the lines “Do not accept monks/nuns until after adolescence” or “abolish the special perks (board & lodging, status, education) reserved for those who (claim to) live in celibate status”, etc. etc.
    Those who love the dharma must discuss this.

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  116. “All this happened to save religous traditions” So this Kalu Rinpoche person was abused to save Buddhism? What absolute nonsense. Ive only been on this blog for a while and I have never read so much hate filled bigoted nonsense in one place. Isnt the difference between people who abuse and religious traditions obvious? Of course, religious people bend religious ideas to facilitate abuse but teachers manipuate the educational environment to do the same. your solution? Blame education. Bring the teaching profession down? What utter nonsense.

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  117. DI mentioned that the other thread was closed partly due to libel worries:

    “If VB wants to post we will send it to our Buddhist consultant for approval. End of of story. No censorship, but rather protecting our site from libel.”

    I had an odd thought this morning – that Sogyal Rinpoche might be better able to get a libel out of this even than removed office, and for this reason: Sogyal Rinpoche has already been through a trial, of sorts.

    Not a criminal trial, but he, his office, Rigpa’s finances, etc., have all come under official scrutiny at some level of the legal system. After the back and forth processes of multiple discovery, lawyers’ investigations, depositions, testimonies–nothing, in that entire, lengthy process, was discovered that constituted even a misdemeanor, much less the crimes of abuse, sexual or otherwise.

    Think of it – not even a misdemeanor.

    So having that legal action on-record could actually be considered a strength – anyone trying to accuse Sogyal Rinpoche of something now, knows that it’s been tried before, and the process failed to turn up any criminal activity on Sogyal Rinpoche’s and Rigpa’s part.

    Combine that with the alleged non-disclosure agreement (some part of which was no doubt violated in the other thread, not to mention the remaining 29 articles on Rigpa here–any place, basically, that one of the trial’s participants said something about the trial they weren’t supposed to–and there could be grounds for libel.

    So, was it really worry over removed office suing for libel that helped shut down the thread, or possibly worry over Sogyal Rinpoche’s office doing the same?

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  118. “Why does a tradition professing to be altruistic abuse people?”

    Of course there are misabuses through religious traditions. I see for example the conception of reincarnations it is a way to abuse children, they never are allowed to be themselves, only a vessel. When a tradition preserves that, it is an abusing system.

    Or the Kumaris: A child is declared to be a goddess, “holy”, kept from other children, often ritual raped at the end of her Kumari-time, so a lot of them are prostituts later.

    Or look at this video of the young Kalu:

    Alls this happened to save religous traditions. And of course are this raditions held by people.

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  119. “Why does a tradition professing to be altruistic abuse people?” I fail to see how ‘a tradition’ can do such a thing. This is the worst kind of stereotyping Ive seen fro a long time. People abuse people, ‘a tradition’ preserves religious truths
    You might just as easily ask why ALL black people are violent drug users

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  120. Hi, gang. Some good questions are coming up for discussion.

    Why does a tradition professing to be altruistic abuse people? Here are some answers I’ve come up with, after asking myself the same question, and doing some research.

    1) In the 60’s and 70’s when young Westerners began going to India and Nepal in large numbers, the Tibetans (very conservative in dress and public behavior) observed that the Westerners were uninhibited in public with displaying affection, kissing in public, and so on. This was shocking to the Tibetans, but the monks and lamas got the idea Westerners were loose sexually, because of this.
    2) I’m sure word of Trungpa’s “adventures” with his students spread like wildfire all over India.
    3) The pornography issue, as someone mentioned earlier. The US exports B-grade films, and men all over the developing world see these films, and form their opinion of Western women based on this. This puts women at risk all over the world, not just in the Tibetan spiritual scene.
    4) According to Western researchers who have stayed in monastery guest rooms and used monastery computers, the monks are accessing porn by computer. They come to view Western women purely as sex objects. Western women have complained about being grabbed and assaulted in public in Dharamsala. I think internet porn is a big reason behind that.
    5) The tradition isn’t altruistic on the Vajrayana (tantric) level. Breaking precepts and taboos is encouraged on that level. And they need women for some of the initiation ceremonies. Some of the lamas are ok with getting women by any means possible to use for the ceremonies. A friend of mine who was in Ladakh recently and spoke to local women about lama abuse, said the women said some of the lamas are “not nice”, and women have to be very careful around them. So it’s not just Western women who suffer abuses. But I have heard of lamas who teach the highest tantras and are respectful of women students, those do exist I admit, but my opinion is that they’re in the minority. Whether they’re in the minority or not, there are too many abusive lamas/yogis.

    About murder: I just re-read a chapter from “Shadow of the Dalai Lama,”, by Victor & Victoria Trimondi. In the “female sacrifice” chapter they explain how ritual murder of the consort is part of some practices, and they use as an example the death of Kalu Rinpoche’s Tibetan teenage consort, whom he had in the first year or so that June Campbell was also his consort. The teen died mysteriously, and Kalu explained it away by saying she’d had a heart attack. We’ll never know for sure what happened, but teens don’t have heart attacks, unless they have a very rare heart condition.

    Someone raised the question about what do we make of teachers who may be brilliant lecturers but are abusive in practice. This is one of the key questions, I think, and everyone has to answer it for themselves. Personally, I wouldn’t be able to attend the lecture of someone like Kalu Rinpoche or Trungpa, if I knew how damaging they were in their practice. It’s about practicing what they preach–integrity is crucial for me. Others may have a different opinion. But doesn’t it make a mockery of the teachings, to be causing harm routinely? The tradition is supposed to be about compassion. But again, that’s just me. It’s a highly individual matter, this question.

    About the tulku system: young Kalu Rinpoche seems to strongly imply in his video about sexual abuse, that he’s not a reincarnation. He repeats a few times that he’s just a human being. Also, if you read the Dalai Lama’s brother’s autobiography, “Tibet Is My Country”, it becomes clear that the reincarnation phenomenon isn’t real, at least not in his case. He goes off to the monastery and spends his first years playing. When he finally settles down to study, he says it’s to please his parents. At no time does he ever express an affinity for the teachings, past life recall, or give any indication that he’s someone’s reincarnation. When his family goes to Lhasa, he blows off the monastery, and goes to Lhasa in spite of the high lamas’ and abbot’s protests. Once he arrives in the US, he completely forgets about his tulku status, and leads an ordinary life. I think as more stories come to light, and more tulkus are willing to be honest, we’ll see more statements of this sort.

    There are two films about Western-born tulkus that also demonstrate that no one feels the the tulku/reincarnate status is based in reality. See “My Reincarnation”, about Namkhai Norbu and son, and “Tulku”, by Gesar Mukpo, Trungpa’s son. Gesar interviews a number of Western-born Tulkus. He, himself, says that he’s never had any past life memories, and the tulku status didn’t seem real to him. He made the film as part of a personal search for what being a tulku means to Western-born tulkus like himself.

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  121. 1+1=2
    Bella b=1+ =mf1=3

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  122. Well, for what it’s worth: it seems obvious the old Kalu was a liar and Trungpa was not.

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  123. Giulia, I agree with you in most of your points and I love the conversation between you and sangkappa, it so benefiial different to a lot of others here.

    Sheila, my view on why Mary Finnigan may believe or report ones testimony or not, has two different reasons:

    First is to be said she has as a journalist very properly to research, how A Friend told us. She spend a lot of energy in her investigations, what is great, specially for the reason it is not liked in the tantric-tibetan community as you can read here. So she is also very encouraged.

    Second: The reason, why I brought in her post about blaming June Campell was to show, that as a part of that tantric-tibetan community she wants to save the reputation of abusers who are in her eyes wise men like Kalu and Trunpa. That is the quandery.

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  124. What I am suggesting about Mary’s view is far kinder than what you are suggesting, sankappa.

    You seem to me to be suggesting that Mary today publicizes removed as one of the great (and generous) yogis of our time–all the while secretly believing he’s a sex abuser.

    I’m suggesting that Mary initially believed another woman’s passionate story, and that as time passed, and for the same reasons likely mentioned by Mary’s friend, Evelyn, they both concluded that the accusation against removed was inaccurate.

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  125. “Academic institutions have no history of doing this” — I am glad you brought up the subject.
    There are several Tibetan monks claiming they hold a “Ph.D.” while merely having studied a little bit more after secondary school level *at a monastery* and on the basis of this hold research positions at universities in the USA. A SCANDAL

    “Academic institutions have no history of doing this” — well, it is about time to educate some real clever people and make them teachers. No more dummies, please!

    MY posts were not concerned with the topic of sex at ALL; people here return to the same subject *over and over* again. MY posts concern MURDER and attempts of murder.
    But, in passing, I am most willing to sweep the floor and get all dirt out.

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  126. I am afraid you are mixing up two things that are not the same based on the weakest form of reasoning, deduction (all cabbages are green, tins of peas are green, therefore tins of peas are made of cabbage) Here you seem to think because some monastics have been engaged in sexual abuse (shock, horror, never before in the history of….etc etc) ALL monastics are therefore sexual abusers,Actually, I would suggest the abusers are a minority.

    Again you advocate academic teachers. -Academic institutions have no history of doing this.

    As for the best way to maintaining the integrity of the Dharma being the destruction of the sangha, Lord Buddha himself said that as long as the ordained sangha exists, the lamp of the dharma will burn. So it looks like you and the Buddha disagree

    Finally, i suspect ‘out with sex-obsessed idiots’ is a sentiment we all share. I note that a significant percentage of your posts are concerned with the issue of sex.

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  127. By the way, these Buddhists don’t criticize Christians, despite loud Christian ranting against Buddhism. They don’t criticize women, or westerners, though both these groups spend time attacking men and Tibetan culture. And these people have not taken up arms, though China’s military has taken up arms against them.

    People throw all these stones at them, for many different reasons, but they don’t throw stones back.

    No religion, sex, or culture in the history of the world has ever been perfect, but it’s kind of easy to see who’s setting the better example here.

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  128. Sorry, spelling mistake:

    Conclusion: Sane people who love buddhism choose to have female Western teachers, academics, preferably.

    Out with dummies, out with monastics, out with red robes, out with sex-obsessed idiots!

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  129. Sankappa, people can read the information and decide for themselves what it means.

    Giulia, my teachers are mostly male, mostly Tibetan, and mostly raised in monasteries. They are kind, sweet, patient, funny, hard-working guys, who make me proud to be part of the human family.

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  130. No, dear Sankappa, I really think these issues must be discussed in public and are much more important than branding one or two specific persons as “abusers”. The whole system must be changed.

    Teachers most definitely need to be people with high academic degrees, so they can respond to any questions from no matter who and so they do not debase a student of whom they are merely afraid because s/he is too clever (this happened to me).

    And women, it should be, because women have much less sexual abuse related issues.

    As for your comments on How it is possible certain people don’t end up in Vajra-hell. According to what I understood from his longest-standing attendant, a Canadian, Chogyam Trungpa R. definitely experienced life as hell and How about Mindroling Rinpoche: he went insane in his later years. Also Kalu was persecuted by June Campbell’s insatisfaction & indignation. The young Kalu has been sexually abused himself and his tutor has threatened him with a knife. I don’t know anything about the new Trungpa-tulku, but all he seems to do when in front of a camera for the Western public is to clamour for money so that Trungpa’s teachings can be translated from English into Tibetan.

    Last but not least: Who says such and so youngster is indeed really the reincarnation of such and so?

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  131. I agree with much of what you say Guilia. You’ve obviously been giving this some serious thought. There’s no doubt that being removed from your parents at a young age, alone is a recipe for for psychological issues later in life. I also think the Tulku system is very much at the base of problems, and then couple that with abuse as a child and it’s a disaster waiting to happen – the potential for an abuser who thinks he has some sort of a divine right to whatever he wants. It really seems to be the antithesis of the Bodhisattva ideal. Speaking of which, something I question: when a Rinpoche commits wrong doing how is it they are not born in a lower realm (IE go to the Vajra hell that they threaten others with) and that lineage is then ended. However, they seem to be reincarnated again. I think recent examples of this would be Trungpa and Kalu Rinpoche, yet they have reincarnated. This seems very suspect to me.

    I’m not sure I agree with you regarding teachers needing to be women and academics. This maybe your perception and recommendation for the Tibetan situation, but IMO there are plenty of safe and highly ethical teachers in other traditions. EG the Theravada. In fact i think there is a move by many towards the Theravada now, for exactly the reasons we are discussing.

    Guilia you’ve obviously had a really rough time at the hands of some of these Lamas, is there any way you can pursue this further and more constructively rather than just discussing this on the internet? Or would it be too hard to make a case? Or perhaps is it you don’t want to take the issue any further for other reasons?

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  132. Conclusion: Sane people who love buddhism chose to have female Western teachers, academics, preferably.

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  133. Money-wise: for some reason Tibetans think they are superior to any other people in the whole wide world and that they have a *right* to receive all your and my wealth, possessions, energy, attention, andsoforth.

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  134. I have already mentioned reasons above.
    Children are separated from their parents when young; children go to monasteries when young; children are abused in monasteries; children feel left alone because mummy and daddy are not near when in these terrible situations; teenager monks are told it is good to stick to monk-hood and monk-hood involves celibacy whereas sexuality should be a natural process; monks and nuns find out that people in robes who claimed they are celibate actually are not; in the monasteries there is a lot of misogeny due to above reasons and misogeny leads to unhealthy relations/conditions/situations.

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  135. “We now need to discuss why members of a society that claim to be altruists (i.e. boddhisattvas) have such a lousy behaviour.”

    Why is this do you think Guilia?

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  136. “just think about Thai prostitution” — No, prostitution is a completely different subject (apart from the fact that the fact the prostitutes in Thailand are generally from Laos, Cambodia and Thailand proves that Western women are *not* seen as prostitutes there).

    I am talking about: MANY women being besieged by Tibetan monks & yogis. The question is NOT *whether* this is so, but *why* and *what* can be done about it.
    The reason why men in middleeastern countries behave badly has already been spoken about & analyzed.

    We now need to discuss why members of a society that claim to be altruists (i.e. boddhisattvas) have such a lousy behaviour.

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  137. We live in different planets Giulia. I have heard exactly that Indian men are terrible as well as Arabs.

    Tibetans might be terrible if they have a chance. It’s just that they don’t yet have the Western feminists educating men there yet. Just think about Thai prostitution. Those are 3rd world countries, in my opinion. Women’s status is low. Muslim countries are the worst.

    Sankappa, I don’t agree with MF that Rigpa overcharges, I just repeated her opinion. She compares retreats that are organized in cheaply rented places in poor European countries, like Poland, Romania, Portugal to Rigpa, which owns the property and organizes most of it’s retreats in expensive countries, like UK, Germany or France. If you compare Chanteloup and Rigpa prices, you can make reasonable comparisons: both own property, both are established in Southern France.

    Just count:

    – own it’s property 52 weeks a year
    – rent a property for 2 weeks a year

    If you want to have Tibetan Buddhism in the West, best is to own property, create solid foundation, from which the teachings can continue for eons.

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  138. BellaB: You are totally wrong. India is the AIDS capital of the world; prostitution is teeming, mainly with Nepalese prostitutes; in Lhasa prostitution is as well teeming.
    In India, the local people have an innate respect for Westerners that one hardly ever encounters in any other country in the world.

    It are the twisted Tibetans, both lay and monastic, who leap on women BECAUSE THEY HAVE A HUGE PROBLEM.

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  139. The good thing is: “they” are able to exert hypnosis to make you feel better, great, in fact, but
    1. some of them then want e.g. sex and if you don’t want this, they get angry and make you feel very bad (through hypnosis, drugs, coercion)
    2. many of them only want to continue the good-feeling-hypnosis when you give them (lots of) money
    3. after getting used to the good-feeling-hypnosis one becomes like a puppy that always wants to sit at the feet of the master and a. this is not always possible; b. sometimes can only be literally bought for a price in money that is simply beyond one’s capacities

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  140. “She just writes in a civilized manner that Rigpa overcharges” and that’s correct, you said it bella. A complete contradiction to what you said in your previous post. At least follow the logic and premise that you’ve set.

    The larger point here is that there is no evidence Mary Finnigan has backed away from supporting Victoria Barlow, as you claim. What Sheila has claimed, and put forward as supporting this claim, is simply NOT evidence.

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  141. The fact that these people get angry and use hypnosis, drugs, emotional coercion to get what they want means they are twisted people in the best of cases, and otherwise simply primitive and evil.

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  142. Giulia, when I traveled to India, I was told NOT to walk around alone. The Buddhist woman who lives in India told me she has cut of her hair, because then the Indian men leave her alone thinking she is a widow. Otherwise they rub themselves against you in buses.

    In India women wear skirts that are until the ground covering all. Their family life is like ours in the 1950’s.

    When Western women come to the East they are considered like prostitutes. Eastern men learn that from the Western Sex Industry, which shows pictures of violence, gang rapes and so on. Those people may not question these pictures.

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  143. And off we go AGAIN repeating the same old shit about Sogyal.

    Dharmadamsel is discussing the issue in a way that is useful:

    “Giulia, what often happens when a lama “invites” a woman to have sex with him is that when she refuses, he becomes angry and uses intimidation tactics to coerce her into sex. The lamas typically also say the student is making a big mistake and losing a chance to advance quickly in their progress toward enlightenment.”

    Also has happened to me — some of them getting angry and then drugging me.

    “Some of us may have the psychological strength to walk out at that point, but women who were raised in abusive families usually do not. And it’s common that the women who end up suffering abuse come from troubled backgrounds. June Campbell writes that Kalu Rinpoche became angry when she turned him down, being shocked by his request. She admits, however, that as he continued to argue with her, she came to feel a little flattered that she might be considered worthy of being a consort. So her ego got the better of her.”

    They indeed can be extremely insisting, for reasons unknown to me. In other cultures, men understand that “no is no”.

    “Furthermore, some women who say “no” end up being raped by the lama. And a few women have reported that some sort of hypnosis was used on them to get them to comply, even though they said “no”.”

    Definitely also has happened to me, the hypnosis bit. One red-robed guy from Tibet got me as far as making him a marriage proposal (!, me, of all persons!) and some of them have succeeded in making me super-horny, but it did not yield them any success. For years, I have seen women “through men’s eyes” and have found it horrible to live with — I have felt like a dog (albeit a celibate dog, whereas I used to be a normal person).

    I think it is extremely important we discuss these general issues and not “X did or did not rape/molest/abuse/… Y”.

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  144. It doesn’t. Of course her swear words are edited away from the Guardian newspaper. She just writes in a civilized manner that Rigpa overcharges – and good people like ST do not.

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  145. “If she still considered Sakya T a sexual abuser, she would throw a shit load around his name, when ever she spoke of him.”

    If this were true bella, then in the above article in question she would either not have mentioned Sogyal or would of “throw a shit load around his name” as you claim, but instead she wrote this:

    “Then there’s Sogyal Rinpoche – credited as author of the bestseller The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. A recent feature in the French news magazine Marianne revealed that the cheapest tariff for a week’s teachings with him at his centre Lerab Ling in France was €500 (£425) – which entitled participants to pitch a tent and eat vegetarian food. Five hundred people attended the retreat, including reporter Elodie Emery – which means that Sogyal attracted more than €250,000 on one occasion.

    “Emery estimates that Lerab Ling pulls in €1m to €1.5m annually in retreat fees alone – in addition to shop sales and donations. Sogyal’s global organisation, Rigpa, has websites that include multiple income streams. One of them, the Tertön Sogyal foundation, targets will bequests. Board members include Pedro Beroy, the managing director of the investment banking division of Credit Suisse.”

    Kinda blows your theory out of the water bella.

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  146. Sankappa if you have read all the posts by Mary Finnigan, you would know her style:

    – it’s all or nothing –

    When she slanders SR, it comes in a form of swear words, spits, includes stuff like cigars, financial abuse, alcohol abuse, porn, eating, sexual abuse…

    In Mary’s mind SR is not a qualified teacher neither. He doesn’t do anything right.

    If you missed that part of her psyche, may I remind you? She is not a good journalist in her dishonesty.

    If she still considered Sakya T a sexual abuser, she would throw a shit load around his name, when ever she spoke of him.

    Fortunately for ST Mary has gone to meet him after the 70’s, which she hasn’t DARED to do with SR. Anybody crazy can tell Mary anything – and she compiles the BS into a Thanka Blog.

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  147. “I’ve heard from Inform! Mainly a long email summarizing information that is already available, but appreciated and valuable in its own right”

    Sheila, in case you do not get permission to publish the information you received from Inform, can you give us a summary of what you’ve found in the document. Most significantly does it verify the claims from the assistant to Sogyal of abuse(s)?

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  148. Sheila you know as well as I do that none of the above is in any way a refutation by Mary Finnigan of Victoria Barlow’s claims re Sakya Trizin.

    Mary Finnigan in fact states here her support for Barlow’s statement:

    “I am convinced that she is telling the truth.”

    There is nothing in the following documents (A Kalachakra Diary, 2002 and The Guardian, 18 Nov 2011) that could even begin to be construed as a refutation. Nada. What it does show if anything, is that Finnigan is still able to be objective and processional in her role as a journalist, for example, by not excluding Sakya Trizin in her provision of retreat details.

    Sheila, I was expecting evidence. This is not evidence.

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  149. Sankappa, here are some key quotes from Mary. Please keep in mind that I didn’t say it was only Mary who had changed her opinion on the veracity of Victoria Barlow’s testimony regarding HHST (I’ve already posted one of Evelyn Ruut’s observations). I include an earlier quote here to show the shift.

    “As I have said already, it is not the first time I have heard
    allegations about removed sex life…[Nicky Skye] has already said that it has taken her along time, and much painful processing, to get to the point where she feels OK about telling this stuff. Have you ever suffered sexual abuse Margaret?…I am convinced that she is telling the truth. And whatever doubts may be cast on me by the Denial Gang, those who know me in a professional capacity know that I am not easily convinced. (Mary Finnigan, alt-religion-buddhism-tibetan, 1999)

    “Receiving the kusha grass and the lucid dream instructions that go
    with it reminded me of previous initiations – in particular the
    Vajrakilaya given by removed on home territory in Bristol.
    This aroused a sudden insight into removed role during the Kalachakra.
    He was a rock-steady presence, supporting HHDL throughout the entire
    proceedings. I saw him as I had done in Bristol, as one of the great
    yogis of our time.” (Mary Finnigan, A Kalachakra Diary, 2002)

    “But if all this sounds like quality Buddhist teachings are beyond the
    reach of middle- to low-income neophytes – there is good news… A
    two- or three-day event with the high-profile lama removed costs
    £20-25 per day. Beginners classes are around £4 per session.” (Mary Finnigan, The Guardian, 18 Nov 2011)

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  150. Dharmadamsel, see if this works – it should. It’s pretty anticlimactic.

    http://63.197.255.150/openaccesspublic/CIVIL/CivilDetails.asp?courtcode=A&casenumber=CV129647&casetype=CIS&dsn=

    Sankappa, before you go crackerdog on me, I am gathering the quotes I promised. Just returned home from a traumatic 9th grade string concert, lol. Ah, puberty.

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  151. Giulia, what often happens when a lama “invites” a woman to have sex with him is that when she refuses, he becomes angry and uses intimidation tactics to coerce her into sex. The lamas typically also say the student is making a big mistake and losing a chance to advance quickly in their progress toward enlightenment.

    Some of us may have the psychological strength to walk out at that point, but women who were raised in abusive families usually do not. And it’s common that the women who end up suffering abuse come from troubled backgrounds. June Campbell writes that Kalu Rinpoche became angry when she turned him down, being shocked by his request. She admits, however, that as he continued to argue with her, she came to feel a little flattered that she might be considered worthy of being a consort. So her ego got the better of her.

    Furthermore, some women who say “no” end up being raped by the lama. And a few women have reported that some sort of hypnosis was used on them to get them to comply, even though they said “no”. We have much more to learn about these cases, and it’s difficult to get information because many women don’t want to talk about it, and even if they do reveal a few details, it’s difficult to keep them engaged in a conversation about such a painful topic, especially by email.

    So there are many obstacles to ferreting out the truth. For some of us it is as simple as saying “no”, and walking away. For others it isn’t. I think the best strategy is to avoid being alone with these characters in the first place. Many of them (most?) are not trustworthy.

    Sheila, I haven’t been able to find the reference info you gave on the main Sogyal thread, about the court case documents. Do you have a link directly to those documents? I’ve found the Santa Cruz county court site, but see no way to look up documents relating to specific cases, unless one has a case number. Thanks for any help you can provide.

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  152. Hi Guilia, regardless whether we apply the label abuser or not there is still this important aspect in regards to sexual conduct:

    Wise or Right Action – abstaining from killing, stealing and sexual misconduct.

    The fourth path factor here is important in regards to ones sexual actions wouldn’t you say?

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  153. Btw: Nyingmapa’s should take out of their “book(s) of laws” the “rule” that, if the lama asks one to have sex with one, one must and shall oblige, otherwise one is deemed to go to Vajra-hell. This rule sucks, IMO. I can decide for myself who I want to have sex with and with whom not. My teacher is welcome to suggest with whom I should or should not have a relationship and/or sex, but the final decision will be mine.

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  154. In principle, I cannot consider teachers who *ask* one whether one wants to have sex with them “an abuser”. One can simply say “no”. Also, I cannot consider people who take a leap and try “abusers”, but mainly dumb asses.
    I would be inclined to brand a person who is one’s own teacher and that leaps on one “an abuser”. Or one’s own teacher who would have sex with one making all types of promises: I am inclined to brand such a person as “abuser”.
    But still, my type of “abuser” is still not “a rapist”.

    I fully believe V. Barlow or that other woman, who say “such and so wanted to have sex with me”. Ok, did they *ask*? Well, what’s wrong with this? It’s up to you to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’.

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  155. Sheila, you have made the claim That Mary Finnegan no longer supports Victoria Barlow in regards to her statements on Sakya Trizin. You have stated this more then once but have not provided evidence of this yet. This is your statement below from yesterday:

    “So, are you saying, Sankappa, that HH Sakya Trizin is a sex abuser?

    If so, what has caused you to believe this, as opposed to DI and Mary Finnigan, who have (in Mary’s case at least) changed their opinion on that?”

    It’s time now to provide the evidence for this as as you stated you would yesterday here:

    “Sankappa – yes – I’ll gather up what I’ve got for you tomorrow.”

    Sheila, please provide the evidence you said you have to back-up this claim..

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  156. Sheila, you are being gross. I am saying: I have had MANY experiences of e.g. me sitting in a temple meditating and all of a sudden the manager pressing his lips on mine saying “I love you, I love you”; walking in the street and a monk crossing the street, taking my hand into his saying “I love you, I love you”; a yogi coming to my room and jumping on top of me and me struggling to throw him off me.
    You are being extremely bad mannered in your reaction.
    AS SAID: MANY other Western women have had similar experiences: monks throwing themselves in their arms in the hallway of the monastery, etc. Such apparently is the effect of the upbringing (monastic, yab-yum images in the temple, being a monk since young and having been abused, etc. etc. etc. (please note the catholic church does not have such young monks)). Just accept this truth: Tibetans are twisted when it comes to sexual matters. The question is *not* #whether# this is so, but merely why and what can be done about it.

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  157. You, too, bellaB – I wish all of us here the strength in the Universe to discover the truth. The truth is what matters, whatever it turns out to be.

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  158. “You lot are very happy to sling stuff around, and not so happy when you’re called to account for it.”

    Thank you Sheila. You surely save my days. Whatever will be the outcome, I wish you all the strength in the Universe in discovering the truth.

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  159. Btw, no fear of them “seeping into the public domain,” given that’s where I found them, by the gallon. It’s more like steeping.

    You will (possibly) notice I have worked to establish that Victoria Barlow’s accusations against removed are likely false–something no one else here had bothered to do, feigned indignation aside.

    You lot are very happy to sling stuff around, and not so happy when you’re called to account for it.

    I trust fully that if removed office is reading this–which I doubt–the picture of what you people are doing is as clear to them as it is to me (no doubt clearer).

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  160. Marianne, I’m reporting what people said.

    If they wish to set the record straight, perhaps they should do so – easily half of those people are/were participating in this very thread.

    Interesting that you call them falsehoods – is that your official position on all the statements I listed? What causes you to disagree with the victims? I have stated some of my reasons (use of the same phrases in separate allegations against different people, etc.) – what are yours?

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  161. Exactly Now all that remains is the stench of the allegations you made against others, without properly researching them first. You can change your tune but you cant remove the baseless and slanderous comments youve made from the web=so now they seep into the public domain because you werent grown up enough to think before you opened your big, ‘shoot first ask questions later’ mouth. I wouldnt be surprised if the ‘long term negative consequences’ Anonymous was talking about were something to do with the unbelievably bad karma you created by repeating falsehoods across the net before you researched them properly.Once again, Vicky Barlow scores a point while the innocents remain silent I taught my kids to clean up after themselves-did your parents do the same for you?

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  162. It is possible that VB is a sex addict and not her former partners that she accuses.

    At least my former friend who was sexually abused as a child became a sex addict and a shopping addict.

    SR-critics probably would never consider this side of the story.

    Even though I don’t much believe in the rumors, I still have suffered from fear that these rumors cause in me. My male friend in Rigpa doesn’t suffer at all. He has more experience with SR and he is not easily swayed by anything. If all of this is crap, like it seems, I’d really like to send that MF to Hell, even though I think she is already boiling there.

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  163. Here’s a much softer take on Victoria Barlow’s testimony. I would love to think it’s true, and that rather than purposely plotting and fabricating things, this person just has a different take on reality. Unfortunately, when the “witness” is accusing innocent people of crimes, this excuse doesn’t count for much–but it could at least help us see the accuser in a kinder light:

    “I helped the person known as “Nicky Skye” years ago…I was as outraged as anyone about what happened to her…I have since heard some of the other side to that story…Nicky and I spoke many times on the phone, but there was one thing I noticed…she [was] too one dimensional, too driven, too inclined towards defining her life by incidents which she herself SURELY participated in willingly a lot of years ago…she herself realizes that it was NOT regular behavior, not a part of the teachings, not endorsed by anyone in authority.” (Evelyn Ruut, alt-philosophy-zen, 5/11/05)

    The fact remains that innocent human beings suffer at such an accuser’s whims–both the falsely accused, and victims of real crimes.

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  164. Giulia, there just aren’t many fatherless, half-Tibetan kids running around this world.

    Unless you’re saying that Tibetans are unique among all world cultures for being 1) exceptionally promiscuous while at the same time 2) never failing to use birth control.

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  165. Sheila, I myself have never been in trouble over sex, but have been jumped upon by several managers of monasteries, monks, yogis in India, and I know a lot of women who have been. The “Tibetans” really DO have a problem with sexual behaviour and it is time to analyse the causes.

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  166. And before anyone gets squirrelly about my referring to the other thread, please note the entire post is about removed, who’s endorsement in the current article raised my eyebrow as I’d just read the author’s own words trouncing him elsewhere.

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  167. A friend,

    I haven’t been researching removed for a month. I’ve been researching allegations into “Lama Sex Abuse Claims,” per the title of the first DI post I encountered. If one doesn’t want people researching “Lama Sex Abuse Claims,” why publish such an article in the first place?

    I found that the same group of people who firmly (say they) believe witness testimony against Sogyal Rinpoche, also (say they) believed one witness’s testimony against another teacher, removed.

    The witness’s testimony, in both cases, is lengthy and detailed. This length and detail is pointed to, by her supporters, as evidence in favor of its veracity:

    “When Nicky Skye first posted via me, I asked her about her allegation re: removed. Did she really want to make this public? Did she have corroborative evidence to support it? She replied with details that convinced me she is telling the truth.” (Mary Finnegan, ARBT, 9/23/99)

    However, now these supporters act as if the length and detail of her accusations against removed matter not, and they distance themselves from the removed issue at every opportunity.

    This is very bad business. If even her supporters do not believe the removed allegations, that means that paragraph after paragraph of her detailed descriptions of the alleged crime–names, places, sights, sounds–may be totally fabricated. Chilling.

    I felt very bad for Victoria Barlow after reading her description of abuse at the hands of her family. To be honest, at this point I don’t know how much of that to believe any more, but there seems to exist at least some corroborating evidence.

    In the removed case, though, I think it’s high, high time to suggest that the “victim” and “criminal” role have been reversed.

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  168. From the view of a tantric master:

    “There is a moment, when all hope goes by, all proud vanishs, all expectation, all faith, all longing. That moment is mine. Than I listen to the tone of a flawing soul.

    It is not a loud cracking sound like splintering bones, when a spine is breaking or a skull is bursting. And also not smooth and moist like a breaking heart. It is a tone when someone asks how much pain can a human sustain; a tone, which is dashing to pieces the mind and letting the past seep into present, a tone so high that only the dogs of hell can listen to.

    Do you hear that? Someone has curled up like a tiny sphere and is crying noiseless into an endless night.”

    So was it.

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  169. We are hoping to start a forum in a few weeks. In the meantime we will determine the threads. If you want to start a new one, then submit a document. This is what this one is about:
    The Buddhist organisations that are thriving during the debt crisis by Mary Finnigan in The Guardian

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  170. Dear Sheila
    Nicky Skye and Vicky Barlow are the same person. This is a well known fact. Again, the reference from M Finnigan, refers to V Barlow, as is that from Dragon. Compassionate warriors statement is what is known as third person hearsay, unattributed:He or she says he heard someone say that they heard etc. The reference to L.Stev 3234 in fact says nothing about Sakya Trizin as such, only about ‘people ‘protecting their own fantasies’. The Canadian reference was to another Sakya, Ckoedak, not Sakya Trizin This, IMO does not amount to much, if anything at all.

    I have actually been a researcher myself for about fifteen years, indeed I have written for newspapers and am published on the issue of cults and abuse. I have also worked with a number of experts in the field, in the uS and the UK

    . The process of research when investigating these types of issues usually takes around two to three years, and all of my allegations are multiple allegations, from multiple sources, most of whom have sworn affidavits or committed to do so should issues come to court. Your research into Sakya Trizin, on the other hand has taken you all of a month and you have turned up one person’s comments, regurgitated through a number of sources. One of your references is unattributed hearsay and the other is not even relevant. I suggest you do a lot more research before publishing unsubstantiated, wild allegations on the internet. It is both unprofessional and thoroughly inappropriate to operate in your chosen manner

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  171. Giulia, Sogyal Rinpoche is not a monk.

    I have seen zero evidence to date that Tibetan teachers, monks or otherwise, “seem to get into trouble related to sex.”

    I have seen a lot of evidence to date that people making such accusations seem to get into trouble related to sex.

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  172. I would love to start a new thread discussing the *reasons* for which Tibetan lamas seem to get into trouble related to sex.

    I would also love to start a thread discussing which other pitfalls Tib. buddhism has and how they can be avoided.

    It is so *boring* to read the same over and over again here.

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  173. Independent, if I understand you correctly, you’re saying the following are all the same person – I’m not disagreeing, nor do I know, but I’m asking whether you believe these are all the same person:

    “…manipulates his students into sex, according to reports by former students.” (compassionate_warrior – Straightdope) [Note: Students is plural both times]

    ” He asked me to lie down, he lay on top of me, grunted in about 5 seconds” (Victoria Barlow/Am Learning/Nicky Skye)

    “It clearly states that removed *required her to have sex with him*” (Mary Finnigan – alt-religion-buddhism-tibetan)

    “I did not bring removed name up, but I did indeed say that Nicky Skye seemed to me to be telling the truth…” (Evelyn Ruut – alt-religion-buddhism-tibetan)

    “It appears that some folks are attempting to protect HH but in fact, they are just protecing their own fantasys [sic].” (LStev3234 – alt-religion-buddhism-tibetan)

    “….a friend of mine had a run-in with removed herself.” (Dragon, – BuddhismWithoutBoundaries)

    Those saying Victoria Barlow is telling the truth about removed, are themselves making accusations that he his guilty. If they don’t want to be in this now-uncomfortable position, then best to have said something along the lines of, “I feel supportive of people who say they are victims of something, but await further investigation.”

    Obviously the biggest question above is compassionate_warrior’s allegation that multiple students have reported abuse by removed.

    What’s the Canadian website?

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  174. “Yes it is a new day but you let the sun down without replying.”

    Incorrect. The sun was down when I told sankappa I’d collect what I have for him/her (which is more courtesy than anyone’s showing me, I might add). The sun is now up.

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  175. Do you think you folks could possibly stop being so rude?

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  176. Independent, on December 13, 2011 at 11:14 am said:
    Sheila states she has had “had several exchanges (if you can call it that) with one of the primary witnesses in both the Sogyal Rinpoche and HH ‘Sakya Trizin “cases,”’. Please clarify. ‘Witnesses’? I have read through this thread and note that there is only one so called ‘witness’ with regard to ST (VB), appearing in different guises across the web, a ‘witness’ who has been at least partially discredited, even by those who previously supported her. Apart from that, the only other ‘evidence’ against ST is unattributed gossip, ‘something I think I heard from someone say over ona Canadian website’. Does this really constitute a ‘case’ against ST? Is it right to refer to one person, singular as ‘witnesses’?

    I would be interested to know as I have been a student of ST for almost a decade and have never once seen or heard any complaints from any source about his conduct, conduct which has certainly always been exemplary in my experience. Publishing unsubstantiated allegations on the internet, when those allegations are all from one source/ are unattributed gossip,subtly misinforming by using such terms as ‘witnesses’ and the ST ‘case’ seems both unwise and damaging. On the other hand, if anyone has any hard evidence here, I would be most interested to hear it since the public should be aware

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  177. Good morning Sheila Amnesia. Yes it is a new day but you let the sun down without replying. In summary sankappa wrote:
    Please answer!

    Submitted on 2011/12/13 at 2:36 am

    Sheila your comment: “Any mark-hitting has come as the result of research–just over a month’s worth now.”

    This is obviously going to cause offence but it needs to be said. The above claim is just laughable. All you’ve done since coming to DI is jump from one lame conspiracy theory to another. It has gone something like this: all the claims of abuse here against Sogyal and TB are a PRC/wumao conspiracy (buzzzz – wrong). DI and Mary Finnegan are in cahoots (buzzzz – wrong). Mary Finnegan is now endorsing removed in the above article because she mentions retreat details (buzzzz – wrong) and now the latest – DI closes-down previous thread to gag Victoria Barlow from making claims against removed (buzzzz – wrong again). Victoria Barlow mentioned her abuse claims about removed 2-and-a-half days before the thread was shut-down. If that was DI’s concern they would have shut it down then.

    Stop trying to make the world fit into your delusional conspiracy theories.

    Detective Sheila Shigley – sharp-shooting from the hip and “hitting-marks” on forums everywhere.

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  178. Apologies to moderation team – just posted something that has two copies of a link.

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  179. Morning all,

    I’ve heard from Inform! Mainly a long email summarizing information that is already available, but appreciated and valuable in its own right. I’m asking their permission to make the email in its entirety available to researchers, and will post a link to it as soon as (hopefully) that permission is given.

    I also received an unexpected email from Elodie Emery, the author of the Marianne piece – here is the translation followed by the original.

    As I’ve stated, my concern was the accuracy of the translation – the fact it’s being hosted illegally is a matter for DI and Rock Ross. I’ll forward Elodie’s email to whomever wants it.

    ====

    E.Emery e.emery@journal-marianne.com
    3:24 AM (3 hours ago)

    to me

    Madame,

    Please excuse my late response, I have not been at the journal these past weeks.
    As to the concern of the translation of my article which you found on “Dialogue Ireland,” this is an unauthorized translation. This “journalist” has a marked tendency to appropriate whatever she finds on the subject of Sogyal Rinpoché !

    The translation appears to me, however, quite faithful to the original text.

    E.Emery e.emery@journal-marianne.com
    3:24 AM (3 hours ago)

    to me

    Madame,

    Je vous prie d’excuser ma réponse tardive, je n’étais pas au journal les semaines passées.
    Pour ce qui concerne la traduction de mon article que vous avez trouvé sur “Dialogue Ireland”, il s’agit d’une traduction non-autorisée. Cette “journaliste” a une nette tendance à s’approprier ce qu’elle trouve au sujet de Sogyal Rinpoché !

    La traduction me parait néanmoins assez fidèle au texte d’origine.

    Cordialement,

    Elodie Emery

    Début du message réexpédié :

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  180. Just listen to the tapes of the Madhyamika teachings given by Dzongsar Khyentse in Dordogne, the tapes from summer 1997 on, and then you will hear the evidence for the machism of these two lamas.

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  181. tulku Pema Wangyal is exTREmely macho and greatly cooperated with Dzongsar Khyentse in ridiculizing “feminists” — it would not surprise me in the least one of these two is the one who is telling Orgyen Trinley (K17) what to say through the head-set so that the latter merely repeats these words (haven’t you noticed?)

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  182. Sankappa,

    “So why is it bellaB that when ever Guilia for example brings up abuse claims by other Lamas we don’t hear a peep from you?”

    Maybe because I DON’T KNOW those people?

    I have met SR multiple times, spent weeks in LL or on other retreats each year. I have a close friend who spends months every year in Lerab Ling and who knows those “inner circle” people, also the women. If I had heard a peep in real life toward the directions of the rumors, I would believe them more eagerly.

    Giulia talks about some man, Orgyen Trinley, that I haven’t seen nor heard his name before anywhere. How could I have any opinion about him?

    When Giulia talks about Tulku Pema Wangyal, I do and did protest, because I have met him and consider him extremely Bodhisattva like. He is the least macho of all men. He would never poison anybody.

    I read June Campbell’s book years ago. I hardly remember it, so I should read it again. Anyway it’s hard to create a solid opinion on any story, when you only hear it from one side. I have no solid opinion about it.

    As a woman I’m of course concerned for any abuse, be it toward any sentient being.

    My friend just confirmed me that those women talked about in the BS Thanka Blog have other men in their life, and they don’t belong to SR’s harem, even if one of them cooks for him. Some of them work in completely other fields, writing and stuff, that has nothing to do with catering or serving anybody, wiping their asses… It’s BS.

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  183. Sheila states she has had “had several exchanges (if you can call it that) with one of the primary witnesses in both the Sogyal Rinpoche and HH ‘Sakya Trizin “cases,”’. Please clarify. ‘Witnesses’? I have read through this thread and note that there is only one so called ‘witness’ with regard to ST (VB), appearing in different guises across the web, a ‘witness’ who has been at least partially discredited, even by those who previously supported her. Apart from that, the only other ‘evidence’ against ST is unattributed gossip, ‘something I think I heard from someone say over ona Canadian website’. Does this really constitute a ‘case’ against ST? Is it right to refer to one person, singular as ‘witnesses’?

    I would be interested to know as I have been a student of ST for almost a decade and have never once seen or heard any complaints from any source about his conduct, conduct which has certainly always been exemplary in my experience. Publishing unsubstantiated allegations on the internet, when those allegations are all from one source/ are unattributed gossip,subtly misinforming by using such terms as ‘witnesses’ and the ST ‘case’ seems both unwise and damaging. On the other hand, if anyone has any hard evidence here, I would be most interested to hear it since the public should be aware

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  184. So why is it bellaB that when ever Guilia for example brings up abuse claims by other Lamas we don’t hear a peep from you?

    Is it perhaps that it doesn’t involve Sogyal or Mary Finnegan? Your agenda here is pretty transparent – protect precious Sogyal at all costs and discredit Mary Finnegan whenever possible.

    It really shows you have no compassion or concern for anyone abused and how hollow and disingenuous you are. It’s all about protecting Soggy al.

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  185. NB (new post because new topic)

    Kalu R.: “I have been abused by Tibetan monks.” Westerner: “Oh, how terrible!”
    Western woman: “I have been abused by a Tibetan lama.” Westerner: “Shut the f. up, you bitch!”

    (NB II: Would not surprise me the Kalu Yangsi has been abused by the same OTr (not triangle-faced) that jumped on me….)

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  186. Some people here say that there is “no need to further discuss the issue of the previous Kalu Rinpoche”. Really? We have hardly begun?! I am willing to believe Kalu slept with JC and asked JC to sleep with another man because he thought he would “liberate” her or something like that. But, the question is: Are we willing to buy into such things? I.o.w.: a teacher (many) implies to be holy a.o. *because* he does not have sex, encourages people to become monks/nuns, who then suffer due to celibacy, which makes them admire the teacher even more, only to find out that those so-called teachers AND Tibetan monks/nuns DO have sex.

    Second point: somebody here said that the previous Kalu “merely wanted to rejuvenate himself by having sex like any Tibetan”.
    Do we accept such habits? Under which conditions? Surely not for someone who claims to be celibate and, more specifically for a member of a system that is treating women like 5th class citizens and that likes to believe one “does not need women”?!!

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  187. “Do you see how manipulative that is? It’s all a castle built in the sky, on thin air, but everyone here now thinks that Finnigan stated somewhere that she rejects Barlow’s testimony about S.T.

    This is how false rumors get generated. This is very nasty and dangerous. It is completely unfair to Finnigan, to put words in her mouth like that.”

    This is NOT how false rumors are generated, this is how we are unpacking the lies Mary Finnigan has spitted out. They are so obvious but for some strange MOTIVATION you don’t want to see. Sheila sees them, Rigpa people see them, I see them, many people see it but you don’t.

    If you Dharmadamsel were at least a bit genuine and open, you would research Mary Finnigan’s ALL words here just to discover the slanderous style. But you like to remain in your own “oh, poor women!” and “Oh, poor Mary!” -state. It’s easy for lazy people to fall into the trap of Mary.

    Now even Marte began to see Blue Dakini (MF) is rejecting June Campbell’s story on Kalu Rinpoche. Maybe Marte starts to open her eyes to the reality that Mary Finnigan is just ordinary person – like any of you – who doesn’t know a thing, but creates bizarre stories. Just read Behind The BS Thankas -blog and puke! How mad can someone be?

    If Mary read June Campbell’s book, was convinced of the story, like everybody: It’s anyway Academic English :). But then she MET June Campbell in person and didn’t like her for the feminist lesbian outlook – and June behaved like she thought Buddhists are all fools, also Mary herself. Mary doesn’t like anybody thinking she is a fool, so she rejected June’s story. How ordinary, how narcissistic.

    What would happen if Mary met some of those people in her dossier, who have written her, in person? Would she dismiss those writings and on what grounds? Because she didn’t like the person, so she stopped believing her?

    Mary has been ridiculed for a long time, not just here. She is actually THE REASON why no-one believes her stories except some anti-Tantric, anti-Vajrayana and anti-Buddhists Fools. She is a BS-machine. Research on that fact and see.

    On top of it she uses power to write in the magazines (and BS blogs) in a wrong way.

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  188. And you’re welcome, Dharmadamsel, though thanks is best due the Chinese – that’s where I got the on Santa Cruz bit (Mary had given the case number, but it was off by one digit).

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  189. Night, all. If you’ve any requests for this week’s Simply Folk, it’s not too late – Christmassy is good but not mandatory. We have most of the English/Irish/Scottish gems.

    Sankappa – yes – I’ll gather up what I’ve got for you tomorrow.

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  190. Thank you for letting me know, Sheila, I’ll look it up.

    Interesting factoid, sankappa. Cool name.

    Good night everybody.

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  191. Far out, impressive Shiela.

    So what about the evidence that Mary Finnegan has backed-away from Victoria Barlow about claim of abuse by Sakya Trizin. Did you manage to track that down too?

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  192. “right-wing think tank”

    Not that Rand, lol.

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  193. Dharmadamsel, I posted the info on the Santa Cruz court website one month ago on the other DI thread.

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  194. I think if there is any relationship (and I’ve wondered myself) it would be that Tsonkhapa maybe derived from sankappa – it’s Pali for thought/intention.

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  195. Thanks for the tip that the Santa Cruz court website has the Sogyal case docs posted, Sheila. At least we got something positive from your ravings.

    Actually, sankappa, I’m kind of glad you and Marte Riepe stuck it out. Somebody had to speak up for reason. Maybe now that Sheila’s uncovered the big secret–that this whole matter has been conjured up by a right-wing think tank–everyone can go home and decompress.

    btw, just curious, is it just a coincidence that “sankappa” sounds a lot like “Tsonkhapa”?

    Happy Holidays, everyone. :D

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  196. That’s how I see it too – it’s the old divide and conquer tactic – because if MF backs away from VB’s claim of Sakya Trizin, she can then start to discredit Victoria Barlow’s claims about Sogyal. That’s devious!

    Yes it is toxic around here, and I have been meaning to get away for sometime, but have to be honest, an attachment has formed (not unlike others here I would suggest). But thanks for the wake-up.

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  197. Sankappa,

    Since the Chinese led me to DI on November 4th, I have read through hundreds of pages of alt-religion-buddhism-tibetan discussions, located and read through the Santa Cruz court action (not posted anywhere other than the Santa Cruz Court system websites as far as I’m aware), waded through DI’s extensive articles (30 total) on Sogyal Rinpoche including pages of comments for many of those posts, slogged through the muck that is Rick Ross, had several exchanges (if you can call it that) with one of the primary witnesses in both the Sogyal Rinpoche and removed “cases,” located and translated (or found translations) of extensive Chinese and French articles on Sogyal Rinpoche including the comments to each, and managed to figure out pretty much who “everyone” is on the forums, multiple IDs and all. And that last list may itself reduce by a couple of people soon, lol, since I’m pretty sure at least “two” of those remaining are (as usual) only one person. I’m not even going to get into the Germans and Dutch, because I feel they’re sort of their own planetary system and I can’t afford a gravity suit.

    I pretty much get that this is a Rand spinoff, and the Chinese are piggybacking. One caveat, though – the timing of the McAleese thing. The PRC is absolutely livid when any head of state chooses to associate with Tibetan leaders – so whether the Chinese are pushing or pulling remains to be established.

    With that last exception, then, this has all been simple reading, not detective work – no one has been mysterious enough to make that necessary.

    Have you all read through the original case?

    I would like to ask Anonymous/Rich Solemn man what, exactly, he meant by the misfortune, “legal and otherwise” he stated we may meet by investigating this story.

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  198. Here’s what I think. I think Sheila read in the article that Finnigan said Sakya Trizin’s teachings were reasonably priced. She interpreted that as an endorsement of S.T., which it wasn’t, it was just an example of one guru who doesn’t charge an arm and a leg for teachings. Then she turned her twisted interpretation against both Finnigan and Barlow, by saying this (non-)”endorsement” of Sakya Trizin represents nothing less than a rejection of Barlow’s denouncement of him as an abuser. She managed quite well to get everyone here whipped up about this supposed rejection of Barlow’s testimony, and the contradiction that testimony caused with Finnegan’s own prior statements, etc. etc. And she managed to get everyone here to fall in line with that analysis and to start believing that Finnigan no longer believes Barlow.

    Do you see how manipulative that is? It’s all a castle built in the sky, on thin air, but everyone here now thinks that Finnigan stated somewhere that she rejects Barlow’s testimony about S.T.

    This is how false rumors get generated. This is very nasty and dangerous. It is completely unfair to Finnigan, to put words in her mouth like that. And ultimately, it serves to drive a wedge between Barlow and Finnigan, if they were ever to read this thread or hear these rumors from someone. And it aims to deprive both of them of their credibility.

    This is why I don’t participate here much, because the atmosphere is very toxic, frankly, and the discussion is not at all constructive. Someone has spun an elaborate web, and others have fallen into it. It’s not too late, though, to climb out and free yourselves. Good luck.

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  199. Dharmadamsel, it’s all part of what I see as Sheila’s wider agenda to undermine, which goes something like this: conspiracy theory, conspiracy theory, discredit Finnegan, discredit Barlow. This now comes under the guise that her real work is doing “research” to create a safe/unsafe Lama list.

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  200. I’ve asked Sheila to provide evidence from this claim of hers:

    “So, are you saying, Sankappa, that HH Sakya Trizin is a sex abuser?

    If so, what has caused you to believe this, as opposed to DI and Mary Finnigan, who have (in Mary’s case at least) changed their opinion on that?”

    But given past form, I could be waiting a while.

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  201. Er…I hope no one is interpreting Mary’s statement in this thread’s top article, about S.T. offering cheap teachings, as a refuting of Barlow’s statement on Trizin. That would be a lot to read into it, wouldn’t it? Is there more to this–does she actually say somewhere that she rejects Barlow’s testimony about S.T.?

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  202. Well, I don’t know if Choedak is still in action “with ST’s blessing”, but maybe so. I think you’re right, now that I think about it. There was a representative of S.T. in Australia that attended this sham of an apology, and stood up for Choedak. The community has been divided ever since, AFAIK.

    This issue of Finnegan now refuting Barlow’s claims about ST has taken me by surprise. This thread is the first I’ve heard of it. Is there a link to the relevant documents? Clearly I’ve missed this development. Frankly, it’s hard to believe, and I’ve been meaning to check it out.

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  203. Thanks Dharmadamsel for that extra information and better perspective of where things are. I am aware of Lama Choedak in Australia (another one for that list of yours Sheila) and his escapades:
    http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.com/2011/07/lama-apologises-for-having-sex-with.html and it would seem that he is still in action with ST’s blessing, is that correct Dharmadamsel?

    Also, what do you know of Mary Finnegan now refuting Victoria Barlow’s claims about ST?

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  204. The problem is that Barlow is the only victim of “lama abuse” who has been willing to go public. So we don’t know for sure if S.T. abused other women, though I think it’s likely. There was a group in Australia that had a website “Ethical Buddhism and Sakya Lamas” (posting about their own errant lama) who told me they’d heard rumors about S.T. I wasn’t able to find out from them what the source of those rumors was. So we are not exactly at Square One, with regard to facts about S.T., we’re at Square Two, thanks to Barlow. If it hadn’t been for her, we would have no inkling that S.T. is someone women should be cautious around. But Square Two still is a far cry from where we’d like to be as far as testimonies and documentation are concerned. More women need to have Barlow’s courage and tenacity in speaking out about this issue.

    I would hope that no one is “in the same league as … Sogyal”. He is beyond extreme. (Oh, but there’s Ole Nydahl, I almost forgot.) But I wouldn’t be at all surprised if other incidents involving S.T. were to surface at some point. How likely is it that the incident with Barlow was some aberration, a fluke?

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  205. Also Sheila, in regards to May Finnegan, can you point me to the evidence that she no longer endorses Victoria Barlow’s claim.

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  206. “So, are you saying, Sankappa, that HH Sakya Trizin is a sex abuser?”

    I am not 100% sure, and “sexual abuser” as you put it may not be the best description. I don’t think he is in the same league as the serial abuser, Sogyal. There has only been one claim that I am aware of (Victoria Barlow’s) and I’ll put it this way, I have no reason to disbelieve Victoria Barlow.

    Now my question to you is, do you disbelieve Victoria Barlow’s version of events, Sheila?

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  207. Sheila your comment: “Any mark-hitting has come as the result of research–just over a month’s worth now.”

    This is obviously going to cause offense but it needs to be said. The above claim is just laughable. All you’ve done since coming to DI is jump from one lame conspiracy theory to another. It has gone something like this: all the claims of abuse here against Sogyal and TB are a PRC/wumao conspiracy (buzzzz – wrong). DI and Mary Finnegan are in cahoots (buzzzz – wrong). Mary Finnegan is now endorsing Sakya Trizin in the above article because she mentions retreat details (buzzzz – wrong) and now the latest – DI closes-down previous thread to gag Victoria Barlow from making claims against Sakya Trizin (buzzzz – wrong again). Victoria Barlow mentioned her abuse claims about Sakya Trizin 2-and-a-half days before the thread was shut-down. If that was DI’s concern they would have shut it down then.

    Stop trying to make the world fit into your delusional conspiracy theories.

    Detective Sheila Shigley – sharp-shooting from the hip and “hitting-marks” on forums everywhere.

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  208. So, are you saying, Sankappa, that removed is a sex abuser?

    If so, what has caused you to believe this, as opposed to DI and Mary Finnigan, who have (in Mary’s case at least) changed their opinion on that?

    The Buddhist expert also seems opposed to impuning removed, going so far as to suggest a bad end for myself if I continue discussing it.

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  209. Dear Dharmadamsel, your Re: Sakya Trizin post – great post! Thanks for summing-up with great clarity what this thread should be concerned with and attempting to steer it back on course. It’s evident by your fair and even-handed tone that you have given this matter careful consideration. I share the conclusion re the propensity for abuse in the Vajrayana:

    “When people find out about rampant abuse in the TB tradition, or if they experience abuse, they do tend to condemn the Vajrayana tradition. It may seem that they’re simply uninformed, but closer study reveals there’s some truth to the claim that TB and specifically Vajrayana are inherently abusive.”

    But I certainly haven’t made the case anywhere near as eloquently and unemotionally as you have.

    If DI ever needs a new Buddhist Expert I think you should throw your hat in the ring.

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  210. “The real story is that you shoot from the hip”

    Neither I (nor you) are that lucky. Any mark-hitting has come as the result of research–just over a month’s worth now.

    I’ve been quite polite.

    If you’re worried about grace, you might have your legal expert advise your Buddhist expert that subtly threatening researchers makes them more determined, not less.

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  211. Dialogue Ireland has an established policy of exercising caution when it comes to publishing allegations against prominent figures of all faiths.
    This person has been leaving comments since 2009. They even precede Bella b- did you know it is the name of a coffee machine!
    So for those of you newer to this blog they have just reminded you of our approach. Nothing particularly strange about that.
    In fact I do not need to raise this with my consultant as this expresses the position exactly.

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  212. DI – “If VB wants to post we will send it to our Buddhist consultant for approval.”
    Why does VB have to have her posts approved?
    When we refer to posts we are referring to that we put out and we approve.
    What you are likely referring to is the comments which people leave on our blog in response.
    I know we can say that we are posting a comment, but what is meant here by having posts approved is the former.
    We generally do not interfere with the comment section unless we believe it is being abused,
    but would not dream of allowing anyone to post before we have looked at it.
    I’m off to work. Will be on lookout for solemn, dangerous men. It’s becoming rapidly apparent to me that the real story here doesn’t have much to do with Tibetan teachers, but the strange bedfellowship pursuing them
    The real story is that you shoot from the hip and then think afterwards and do not have the grace to recognise you do it. You just duck and dive to your next obession. Wonder if you have time for work with your addiction online!

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  213. Just because you’ve met Lama Ole Nydahl, doesn’t mean all Tibetan Buddhism is rotten. You can clearly identify yourself with June Campbell, I can see that. I have read her book, which was well written. I doubt you were threatened with anything by Nydahl? You were just a bit like a “religious lunatic”, too open, at the time and ended up in a bad situation. It doesn’t mean this happens all the time everywhere. Hadn’t you heard about Nydahl? Didn’t you know he was in a relationship? If I was in love with Nydahl I would try find out about his relationships in advance. Even though people here have been calling me a cult member, I have never been in any weird situation with Lamas.

    I would avoid any page associated with Shugden supporters (Trimondi): they are the worst. They organize demonstrations where ever HHDL goes to give public talk. The Chinese support it and also drag a few Tibetans around to demonstrations against HHDL. Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche told this and he said that the Tibetans looked like in shame.

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  214. Wen you really want to know, what an independent, non-buddhist journalist wrote about the case of June Campell and Kalu read the article of the “Independent” here:

    I was a Tantric Sex Slave

    http://www.trimondi.de/deba03.html#_Hlk459539461

    What I learnt in my contact with tibetan Buddhists was their high potential to manipulate people.

    Good luck, DI

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  215. Are you Marte also beginning to open your eyes?

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  216. “Some blamend her on annother forum:”

    That is Mary Finnigan in the form of Blue Dakini!

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  217. You are totally right, Vera. I have the same idea and feeling, and I know the style.

    I do not anything know about V.Barlow, but I know all about June Campell and Kalu. Her book -Traveller in Space- was a stunning scandal in the Kagüy.sect and wideley well known in the world. Campell was sthe only source against Kalu and entire reliable . Her book was translated into German, so I read it and it is a pfantastic analyse of tibetan Tantrism from a feminist view.

    Some blamend her on annother forum:

    “Firstly, about June Campbell. I have known June since the early 1980s, when she lived at Samye Ling in Scotland and had a Tibetan personality — name, dress and language. She was then and still is a very intense person. Fast forward to the mid 90s when her book Travelers in Space was published. June had morphed into an atheist, feminist lesbian university tutor. She rejected all forms of spirituality inc Buddhism and was scornful of people (inc me) who were still practitioners — with the same degree of intensity. From being one of the late, much venerated Kalu Rinpoche’s closest associates, travelling with him, translating for him and his secret sex partner, she had become one of the most hard-nosed detractors of Tibetan Buddhism I have ever encountered. OK — you can say that this happened as a result of her experience. What I say is that what she became influenced her hindsight on her experiences with Kalu. I interviewed June twice and I went to one of her public talks. My impression remains that she misjudged Kalu’s intentions and wrote about them from the perspective of left wing feminism. I think Kalu invited June to be his lover because he thought it was what she wanted. He appreciated her a lot. He offered her a house and for all her needs to be met after she stopped travelling with him. I hold the late Kalu in the highest possible regard — but I do not deify gurus. I acknowledge their spiritual accomplishments, but they are still human and as such, imperfect. I think Kalu is off-topic on this thread so can we move on from him now — or transfer to the thread about child abuse in monasteries — a hot topic in view of the young Kalu’s recent confessional video. There is no comparison between Sogyal and the late Kalu — the former is a joke guru and a psychopathic sex addict. The latter was a great guru and an old man trying to hang onto his youthful vigor — Tibetan style.”

    http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,60882,page=8

    Though his misabuse of June Campell she called Kalu “The latter was a great guru and an old man trying to hang onto his youthful vigor — Tibetan style.”
    DI, you are so naiv.

    My statement:

    The Buddhist experts who are in the same time devotees are the ones to be denying the misabuse the nearer the abuser is to that person or school they are adjunct to.

    That has obviously happened in the case of June Campell, who reported her misabuse very well in her famous book.

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  218. “if Barlow is as unreliable a source as some of you think, why was she interviewed at length for the Canadian documentary on the Sogyal lawsuit? Why was her testimony published by the San Francisco Chronicle religion reporter, in the San Francisco Free Press (the Chronicle was on strike for two weeks, so staff created the Free Press so they could continue publishing during the strike. Otherwise the article on the lawsuit would have published in the Chronicle. I’ve spoken with the reporter, Don Lattin).”

    Simply because all of those things exist because of Mary Finnigan’s initiative.

    MF wrote the first Guardian article that Don Lattin ‘copied’. Who is Don Lattin? A Buddhism expert? Did he ever personally meet and interview Victoria Barlow? What prevents VB from repeating her stories again and again? She still does it today, if it was VB who appeared here.

    When someone wants to make a Doc about religious abuse – and makes superficial research on the subject of Buddhist abuse, in matter of seconds Mary Finnigan and her friends can be found. They could lure the young naive(?) “Mimi” into it too. The rest of the Doc was repetition of Mary’s words (like the zen ‘priestess’ claiming to know where abuse appears: in Tibetan Buddhism!)

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  219. Ok, X is a dog, Y is a dog, and maybe Z and R are dogs as well. That previous thread was or was not shut down for the right reasons / at the right moment.
    Can we now please move forward with the discussion and try to analyze (with the purpose of improving) “the situation”?
    Dharmadamsel seems to have some interesting contribution in this vein. Withywindle might post the analysis that I wrote and that was deleted here, so we can start to “destroy the egos of those call themselves gurus” in order to “build something good and new”.

    My new point: “Vajrayana” should be limited to “visualisations” and not entail all types of “rules” like “If you don’t sleep with the guru when s/he wants to, you will fall into Vajra-hell” and “One must do everything the guru tells you to” and “One must see everything the guru does as perfect” *for the reason* that this can lead to fascist practices.

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  220. DI -this post is why I connect Anonymous to you.

    Anonymous, on December 10, 2011 at 10:00 am said:

    “Why was V Barlow told to go away as soon as she started repeating her allegations against HH Sakya Trizin?”

    Dialogue Ireland has an established policy of exercising caution when it comes to publishing allegations against prominent figures of all faiths. Rather than engaging in knee jerk reactions on the basis of single allegations, DI errs on the side of caution, not publishing anything unless there are multiple allegations from multiple sources. as in the case of Sogyal Lakar, for example.

    In the case of both Sakya Trizin and Kalu Rinpoche, both are highly regarded throughout the Buddhist world as exemplary beings. Both have been the subject of a single allegation from one, single source, not repeated allegations of varied nature over a long period of time.

    In such cases, DI holds to the position that there is inadequate, substantial evidence of abuse to merit publication. Such an approach seems entirely reasonable in these days where a primary weapon of those opposed to religion is the employment of abuse allegations: the CCP/NKT campaign to discredit the current Dalai Lama is evidence of the prevalence of such a low handed and devious tactic’s popularity.

    Again, “A lie told often enough becomes the truth”. Since Ms Barlow was using these pages to circumnavigate the policy set out above via the technique of repetition, and in the absence of corroborating evidence/allegations, it seemed entirely appropriate that her repeated assertions were here curtailed.

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  221. “It’s becoming rapidly apparent to me that the real story here doesn’t have much to do with Tibetan teachers, but the strange bedfellowship pursuing them”

    Your finally beginning to get it-have a good time at work.

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  222. P.S. “Strange” is meant to modify bedfellowship, not individual bedfellows.

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  223. Good try Vera, the whole concept here is we protect people’s anonymity. Do you think we are naive in regard to the threats people experience.
    We do not reveal their identity because of the serious threats made in the past. You seem fixated on knowing who people are. would you like me to reveal your IP?
    Even if you say yes I would not.
    Also, am confused re the expert saying about Victoria Barlow and how DI quite rightly shut the thread down once she appeared, as she kept repeating things.
    Again just because someone agrees with us does not make that our expert. Please be a little less pedantic ‘Anonymous’. Your authoritarian manner is shocking.
    Why are you connecting Anonymous to us? They are not representing us but their own view. We closed it down not because of VB but because we were getting all kinds of constant minute by minute spamming on the site.
    Then you DI saying you didn’t close it down because of her.
    We did not close it down because of her alone, but it was minute by minute spamming. What we said was that if VB submitted a doc we would look at it , but not on that thread which was being abused.

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  224. Anon, you said I’d experience legal and “other” misfortune. What can I say. Perhaps you can elaborate on “other” at some juncture, to put my mind at ease.

    DI – “If VB wants to post we will send it to our Buddhist consultant for approval.”

    Why does VB have to have her posts approved?

    I’m off to work. Will be on lookout for solemn, dangerous men. It’s becoming rapidly apparent to me that the real story here doesn’t have much to do with Tibetan teachers, but the strange bedfellowship pursuing them.

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  225. PS Sheila I suggest you see a psychiatric professional as you appear to be suffering from paranoid delusions Remember what they say though: Just because youve got paranoia it doesnt mean the whole world isnt out to get you.

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  226. DI – sorry, I thought you were referring to accusations agains teachers.

    You did close the thread; if you and your Buddhist expert are disagreeing as to whether Victoria Barlow was or should have been censored, I can’t answer those questions – I can only observe that the thread was closed and she was sent packing.

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  227. Vera, could you please explain exactly what you mean by ‘pedantic’ ;)

    I am no Buddhist expert BTW I know very little

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  228. You claimed we closed the thread and censored VB. You apologised earlier in this process for your claims.
    Have you read my replies to you earlier a few minutes ago?

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  229. Anonymous – I am less concerned with your anonymity than I am with your repeated hint that I’m to suffer some misfortune, “legal and otherwise” (your words) if I keep asking questions.

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  230. DI – I haven’t made any accusations.

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  231. Your Buddhist expert might carry more authenticity and credibility if he gave himself a name. I can’t help but reflect that you can know a lot about buddhist history and ideology but end up quite inflexible mentally and disconnected from the heart. I am not easily shocked but I have been by the said experts attitude to people and other religions here. In my opinion not a good advert at all. Also, am confused re the expert saying about Victoria Barlow and how DI quite rightly shut the thread down once she appeared, as she kept repeating things. Then you DI saying you didn’t close it down because of her. If I didn’t know that Sogyal had abused students I would now be disbelieving of it. Please be a little less pedantic ‘Anonymous’. Your authoritarian manner is shocking.

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  232. No. A Buddhist practicioner is not an expert of cultist misabuse in Buddhism, specially in tibetan Tantrism. There are a lot of Buddhist experts, who are not devotees and are able to analyse the system from outside.

    That is my experience and conviction. The Buddhist experts who are in the same time devotees are the ones to be denying the misabuse the nearer the abuser is to that person or school they are adjunct to.

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  233. RE: Sakya Trizin (and Sogyal): this “he’s not a monk” statement is no defense. S.T. is married. Furthermore, as a spiritual guide, as clergy, he has no business forcing himself on students, or even having consensual sex with students, for that matter. This is an abuse of trust and power. Why is this concept so difficult to grasp? And he has taken vows against sexual misconduct, along with marriage vows.

    When people find out about rampant abuse in the TB tradition, or if they experience abuse, they do tend to condemn the Vajrayana tradition. It may seem that they’re simply uninformed, but closer study reveals there’s some truth to the claim that TB and specifically Vajrayana are inherently abusive. In a film on Chogyam Trungpa to be released next year (“Crazy Wisdom”), his students say he believed that the Dharma is to be taught via abuse. Dzongsar Khentse Rinpoche said in an interview with “Enlightenment Now” magazine, that “your guru is the person you’ve hired to destroy your ego”. When asked if that was abusive, he chirped cheerfully, “When there’s no ego left, there’s nothing there to experience abuse”. Highest Yoga Tantra has a history of extreme abuse, and rare reports from women who have been tricked into participating in certain initiations reveal that what some regard as ancient history, practices long abandoned, are still very much current.

    This is not to say that all HYT is practiced with a mudra, and is therefore open to abuse, nor is it to say that all lamas and teachers are abusive, whether in tantric ritual or in more common practice. But it should be obvious that a tradition like this is open to misuse and abuse. Too many people in a position to teach to students, especially HYT, have proven themselves unable to resist temptation. If anyone can think of a way to introduce accountability and ethics into the tradition, by all means, share your ideas.

    I’ve posted this before and I’ll say it again: if Barlow is as unreliable a source as some of you think, why was she interviewed at length for the Canadian documentary on the Sogyal lawsuit? Why was her testimony published by the San Francisco Chronicle religion reporter, in the San Francisco Free Press (the Chronicle was on strike for two weeks, so staff created the Free Press so they could continue publishing during the strike. Otherwise the article on the lawsuit would have published in the Chronicle. I’ve spoken with the reporter, Don Lattin).

    Someone has commented on Rick Ross that Sogyal has changed his tactics since the lawsuit, and is taking advantage of students in a more covert manner. This explains why many people don’t believe in the sexual abuse stories, and the accusations that he uses his students for sex (whether consensually or non-consensually). But again, I say that just because you haven’t witnessed any improprieties or seen documentation of them doesn’t mean they’re not occurring.

    I really wonder if there’s much point in continuing this discussion, because the same questions are being raised by newcomers to this site as have already been raised and discussed early on. We’re now at the point that we’re rehashing the same old stuff. But whether to continue is D.I.’s decision to make.

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  234. It may be the first time you have read it but not the first time I have told Sheila about it.
    Hopefully your Buddhist expert is not a Buddhist practicioner, that would mean the same you would give a case of misabusing in christians churches to a deep devotee of those churches.
    I fail to understand the logic of your comment.
    My specialisation is Christian groups or groups of Christian origin. I am not familiar with Buddhism hence throughout this process I have sought the help of this expert because they can distinguish the elements of the debate I am not familiar with. When I go to a garage to get my car fixed I hope the mechanic is also able to drive!
    My role is not to evaluate the comments being made but solely to make sure people are not abusing our site to either promote a group or on the other hand to try to use this site to defend abusers.

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  235. You will note that you avoid the claims and merely reply to a detail. In the UK people generally work till the 24 of Dec so you have plenty of time to call them on this subject.
    Do either withdraw your accusations or we will have to remove you from this site!

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  236. DI, first time I read that:

    “I also said if Victoria Barlow wanted to submit a document we would after consideration by our Buddhist expert we might publish it. I repeat this is not a Buddhist discussion area, but one dedicated to understanding cultist abuse in Buddhism.”

    Hopefully your Buddhist expert is not a Buddhist practicioner, that would mean the same you would give a case of misabusing in christians churches to a deep devotee of those churches.

    But I do not complain, my posts about cultist abuse always went through.

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  237. DI – I will continue trying to make contact with Inform. I do realize it’s approaching the holiday.

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  238. Marte-Micaela, Finnigan points out that removed classes are affordable in this time of “financial crisis,” and this after having told others he is sexually abusive.

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  239. What subtle threats. where; when? I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about-you are completely 100% wrong.

    Ms Barlow is NOT the only person to make allegations against Sogyal-a large number of women, including personal friends have gone on record concerning sogyals behaviour Therefore I believe them

    AFAICS V Barlow IS the sole source of allegations against Sakya Trizin therefore I do not believe her. Does that seem reasonable? Or do you think thats a threat too?

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  240. You will note that was not DI that made that statement, but someone who agreed with us not allowing “these pages to circumnavigate the policy set out above via the technique of repetition, and in the absence of corroborating evidence/allegations, it seemed entirely appropriate that her repeated assertions were here curtailed.”
    So please do not attribute too us comments not made by us and then accuse us of censorship. Are you trying to be blacklisted? If VB wants to post we will send it to our Buddhist consultant for approval. End of of story.
    No censorship, but rather protecting our site from libel, from people using lama Sakya Trizin to divert from Sogyal Rinpoche

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  241. Qoute from the article

    “Then there’s Sogyal Rinpoche – credited as author of the bestseller The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. A recent feature in the French news magazine Marianne revealed that the cheapest tariff for a week’s teachings with him at his centre Lerab Ling in France was €500 (£425) – which entitled participants to pitch a tent and eat vegetarian food. Five hundred people attended the retreat, including reporter Elodie Emery – which means that Sogyal attracted more than €250,000 on one occasion.”

    Sheila, do you think, M.Fiinnigan is endorsing Sogyal here? She just reoports facts.

    “A two- or three-day event with the high-profile lama Sakya Trizin costs £20-25 per day. Beginners classes are around £4 per session.”

    And why is this endorsment? Just annother fact. How do you read articles? Did anyone here have read it at all?

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  242. DI, Inform will not answer me. Not much I can do about that. I want very much to read the documents.
    That is why I called on you to: Have you called Inform yet? But that assumes you read and digest responses.
    I’ve asked repeatedly that people here on this thread who have them, send them, if they truly want me to read them.
    You just do not get it do you.
    How can people on this blog provide you with this when it is confidential material which Inform only give out when there is a clear reason to do so.
    did you email as I suggested? Discretion is part of this. Not just for your curiosity. If you are patient then take take a break from here for a few days, call them in office hours and then let us know what you here.
    I have already told you I heard his former assistant speak. You do not need to call Inform to get that I was there!

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  243. Anon, I haven’t made a single allegation. Quoting existing allegations does not count as forwarding allegation.

    My question to you stands: why the subtle threats? Are you “Rich Solemn Man” who warned on the other thread that we would “bring misfortune” on ourselves by continuing to have these discussions?

    Look, your woman Victoria Barlow makes detailed accusations against Sogyal Rinpoche and removed. In the first case, you support her all the way. In the second, you shut down her thread and post a new article endorsing removed.

    Do you, or do you not, believe the victim?

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  244. The citation is from December 10, 2011 at 10:00 am. It concludes, “Since Ms Barlow was using these pages to circumnavigate the policy set out above via the technique of repetition, and in the absence of corroborating evidence/allegations, it seemed entirely appropriate that her repeated assertions were here curtailed.”

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  245. Are you barking or what? What utter nonsense. Nobody is a threat to Ms Barlow except herself. I am merely pointing out that if anyone finds out who you are,(and your full name appears very clearly on this blog) or works out which group you are associated with (which is also blatantly obvious from the content of your posts), this could result in serious repercussions for you, legal and otherwise. Imagine for instance if you were a member of the FPMT and the head of your organization were to find out that you had been making sordid allegations about someone he identifies as one of his main gurus?Or a rich and powerful guru were to decide to seek you out and sue you for slander? It wouldnt be very difficult. It is always best to make sure that your evidence is pretty solid before posting wild accusations on the web. references to people posting under pseudonyms claiming that a friend of a friend said such and such wouldnt really stand up in a defence against libel-difficult situation-geddit?

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  246. Where did DI write this give a citation!

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  247. DI – Anonymous stated above, “Dialogue Ireland has an established policy of exercising caution when it comes to publishing allegations against prominent figures of all faiths…In the case of both removed, both are highly regarded throughout the Buddhist world as exemplary beings. Both have been the subject of a single allegation from one, single source…”

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  248. Anonymous, are you threatening Victoria Barlow? I only repeated her allegations, but she directly made allegations against removed, who is endorsed in the article we are currently discussing.

    Are you telling me Victoria Barlow will get into a “difficult situation” if she continues to speak out? Is that why she left this thread – did you threaten her with a “difficult situation?”

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  249. DI, you said only one person was accusing removed, but I’ve found:
    Please state where DI wrote this?
    You are trying to confuse us with retrocommenting. What I wrote a few minutes ago still stands
    I am seeing red!

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  250. DI, Inform will not answer me. Not much I can do about that. I want very much to read the documents. I’ve asked repeatedly that people here on this thread who have them, send them, if they truly want me to read them.

    This is serious research, into a serious topic, and I am patient.

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  251. “I suggest you learn to investigate a little before you start regurgitating mindless gossip about reputable teachers-you could wind up getting yourself into some very difficult situations”

    Then mayhaps you folks would think twice about leading us all to Victoria Barlow in the first place.

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  252. I warned you Sheila if you continue repeating untruths on this thread I would simply delete them.
    This your last warning:
    Sankappa, Victoria Barlow says she was abused by removed, but DI said her testimony on this matter was moot, and shut down the thread.

    Please give any evidence for the claim you have just made? I claimed that we were getting such a high level on that thread we were closing it down.
    You just migrated to this thread with the same stuff. You would bring this up on a thread called Micky Mouse and Sogyal if we started it.
    I also said if Victoria Barlow wanted to submit a document we would after consideration by our Buddhist expert we might publish it. I repeat this is not a Buddhist discussion area, but one dedicated to understanding cultist abuse in Buddhism. We are not concerned with the truth claims of any religion or ideology?!
    Does DI lack empathy and compassion for Victoria Barlow? Or is it possible simply that more evidence is required before condemning a teacher (or anyone else)? Get on with your own posts you are supposed to send me. Have you called Inform yet?
    Red card on way, not red hat!

    Like

  253. “It is totally spooky.”

    Marte-Micaela, I agree.

    Like

  254. The other allegation from ‘Compassionate warrior’ is without name and is a claim from the unidentified source that he/she heard others say….No name, no source. no identifiable origin-worse than hearsay Completely unreliable.
    Look ” I have a friend that said she knows someone who had sex with Elvis in 1962″ Is that a reliable source?

    Where do you stand Sheila? You priase the FPMT then post this unsourced gossip about one of Lama Zopas teachers? Do you consider Lama Zopas judgement?

    The fact that you did not know V Barlow was Nicky Skye means you are still a newbie in this field. I suggest you learn to investigate a little before you start regurgitating mindless gossip about reputable teachers-you could wind up getting yourself into some very difficult situations

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  255. “Sankappa, Victoria Barlow says she was abused by removed, but DI said her testimony on this matter was moot, and shut down the thread.”

    How often you wre told by DI, that the thread was closed because of being attacked and not because of Victorias testimony. I think, it was more than four or five times. You seem to be an intelligent woman, but why does it not come in your mind? Why are you impertinently repeat those reproaches again and again, why do you build that conspiracy theory? What is the matter with you? It is totally spooky.

    You should know, in western societies victims are better protected than abusers and that is completly right. When the Karmapas or Nydahl feel framed, they can threat Giulia and me with legal actions. I would be very happy about that! But they do not., nor Nydahl either Karmapa, though I sent them the link to my blog and I published all in different places. I took other actions too and will inform you here about, but that takes time.

    So, please, discuss what you want to but more creative! You are so boring, sorry.

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  256. Angry Anonymous,

    ‘All critics of Sogyal are liars and only I know the truth’

    That I haven’t heard anybody else except SR critics say. I haven’t said everybody is a liar, but many are. If their story is 90% lie, it’s most likely 100% lie. Sadly the main people are (MF, Bullshit Thanka blog, VB?), but it makes it on the other hand good, since their desperate stories are not real, which is for any woman a good thing – but then again a bad thing for SR and Buddhists that might benefit from his teaching, but avoid going there because of the rumors. Hardly anybody here knows personally anything, it’s just gossip.

    ‘Dialogue Ireland is hacking into my computer and planting viruses’ are all examples of the comments made by those I have labelled as ‘crazies’ I guess you think such people are perfectly sane?

    I did receive my old computer back from my brother who looked into it and he said the cause of the collapse was not a virus, but a computer part that was heated / burnt because of dust. I’m sorry I forgot to correct this. I’ve had other things in mind. DI has threatened to reveal IP addresses before, so for me they are not completely okay themselves as holders of this kind of blog. But let’s not get into it anymore. There was no virus, but the timing of the collapse of my computer was amazing.

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  257. V Barlow is a pseudonym of Nicky Skye, Dragon is a colleague of V Barlow
    Moreover Sakya Trizin is not a monk so I am afraid your allegations remain inadequate

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  258. DI, you said only one person was accusing HH Sakya Trizin, but I’ve found:

    “I don’t know if removed has given up his vows, some of his vows, or what, but he still presents himself as a teacher, and manipulates his students into sex, according to reports by former students.” ~compassionate_warrior (Straightdope board)

    ” He asked me to lie down, he lay on top of me, grunted in about 5 seconds and then ran for the door, carrying the condom with him.” ~Victoria Barlow/Am Learning/Nicky Skye

    1) “I have deleted the re-post of Nicky’s original item, because everyone here has seen it — and will see it again from you. It clearly states that removed *required her to have sex with him*…I must also say that Nicky’s Skye’s allegations are not the first I have heard about ST’s sex life.” (from separate posts) ~Mary Finnigan (alt-religion-buddhism-tibetan)

    “I did not bring removed name up, but I did indeed say that Nicky Skye seemed to me to be telling the truth in my conversations with her.” ~Evelyn Ruut (alt-religion-buddhism-tibetan)

    “It appears that some folks are attempting to protect HH but in fact, they are just protecing their own fantasys [sic].” ~LStev3234 (alt-religion-buddhism-tibetan)

    “…but I have had to fend off unwanted attention from lamas….a friend of mine had a run-in with removed herself.” ~Dragon, BuddhismWithoutBoundaries

    You also list the “repeated” allegations against HH Sakya Trizin as the reason the other thread was shut down; yet others here have made repeated allegations against the Karmapa, and you have not shut them down.

    It seems very clear that some teachers are specifically protected here, whereas some teachers are specifically attacked here. This cannot be accidental. Nor can it be accidental that just after the HH Sakya Trizin allegations were restated here by Victoria Barlow herself, you posted a new article by Mary Finnigan endorsing HH Sakya Trizin.

    What is behind all this? Why is no one willing to say what is really going on?

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  259. Interesting project for jobless Dutch intellectuals: get together and devise a “new religion”, write some texts and base rules, say it is actually an old religion (tip: Mani-ism is a good choice — it really did exist and was going to be big until Alexandre the Great made a different choice), act as if one is holy oneself (e.g. IQ minimum 125, etc. etc. etc.) and go and preach and make big bucks.

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  260. Reason why people are enraged about issues related to sex and lamas:

    cf. e.g. FB-Wall of Zurmang Gharwang: “One of the first obstacles to overcome when one becomes a monk or nun is to have little or no hair”. blablalblablab and then people find out how hard it is to keep this and that precept blalblalblab and then they are full of admiration for monks and nuns blalbalblal *and then they find out that those monks and nuns DO have sex* etc. etc. etc.

    THIS is what enrages people

    In the meantime, these people have lost valuable years to lead a normal life and now can’t go back anymore; have lost the art of flirting, etc. It totally sucks.

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  261. “Furthermore, you lack of empathy and compassion, for people here who have been abused (Marte and Giulia) is disgraceful.”

    Sankappa, Victoria Barlow says she was abused by removed, but DI said her testimony on this matter was moot, and shut down the thread.

    Does DI lack empathy and compassion for Victoria Barlow? Or is it possible simply that more evidence is required before condemning a teacher (or anyone else)?

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  262. 1193 destruction of Nalanda-where all three vehicles were practiced alongside one another-my point? Dogmatic sectarianism was not a feature of the Buddhas teaching at its foremost centre of learning

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  263. I note that the first written version of the Pali canon appeared in the first century BCE while the first tantras appeared in the third century CE. The argument that the tantras were transmitted orally before that time is rejected by some Theravadin purists. However, since their own canon was preserved as an oral tradition for a similar period after the Buddhas death up until the first written version of the canon appeared, such a response seems highly selective.Again, since this appeared after four separate councils at which agreements were not always unanimous, it further seems somewhat arrogant to claim that the Pali canon is definitely the word of the Buddha, particularly since there was even disagreement over this soon after his death at the first council Moreover, there is clear evidence to show that all the different traditions Hinayana, Mahayana and Vajrayana were practice both individually and in combination up until its destruction in 1193. The tendency to discriminate between the doctrine in such a dogmatic fashion does not therefore appear to have been a facet of Indian Buddhism

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  264. Just playing with you Sankappa-I must say though, many of the faults you point to are evident in your own speech-elitism and condemnation of others, together with some rather angry rhetoric are qualities we both possess. In the UK they call it ‘the pot calling the kettle black’. best wishes (and I hate you;))

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  265. How very compassionate of you, especially after all that hatred and vitriol-you are surely very much holier than I

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  266. No theism on this path Anonymous, nor any deification of the Buddha, as with certain other paths.

    Anonymous, may you be well and may you be happy

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  267. BTW Are all that anger, hatred and condemnation part of your practice too?

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  268. Thank you for your appraisal of my character and of the vajrayana path. Most refreshing and entirely objective to boot. Most incisive! how quaint.PS Marte and Giulia SAY they have been abused-the jury is still out, as anyone who has ever worked in public services will tell you. Never leap to conclusions having only heard one side of the story-its bad practice and shows a level of emotionality that is inappropriate in such situations. But we already knew that anyway

    Best wishes and may your god (theistic Buddha?) go with you

    Like

  269. Wow, still trying to justify your offensive comments. Keep diggin’ that hole…

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  270. Furthermore, you lack of empathy and compassion, for people here who have been abused (Marte and Giulia) is disgraceful. I think you have genuinely lost sight of what the Dharma is about. 30 years as a Tantric practitioner with a swag of the highest teachings and this is the best you’ve got. It does seriously make me question the efficacy of the Tantric path in regards to Sila.

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  271. well dear, now were getting down to it-you just dont like me! If somebody posted statements that the Buddha advocates rape, would you sit back and remain silent-Yes or no will do.

    ‘I was forced into tummo’, ‘tantra teaches rape’ ‘All critics of Sogyal are liars and only I know the truth’ ‘The tibetans are all trying to kill’ ‘I got a message from the Buddha in a dream last week’ ‘All you critics work for the Chinese Government’ and ‘Dialogue Irleand is hacking into my computer and planting viruses’ are all examples of the comments made by those I have labelled as ‘crazies’ I guess you think such people are perfectly sane?

    Try the duck test -If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
    Its called inductive reasoning, eg:90% of humans are right-handed.
    Joe is a human.Therefore, the probability that Joe is right-handed is 90%

    Now consider the quotes above. ‘Crazies’

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  272. Well Anonymous, it’s bad enough that like a petulant child you “demand” you have your questions answered and publicly label posters on this forum “crazies” without any real evidence, but then go on to to justify this behavior, I find as truly astonishing for someone who claims to be a Dharma practitioner of 30 years.

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  273. You will note the complete absence of any citation concerning tantra and rape or any answers to whether a certain person has any knowedlge or experience of tantric practice whatsoever. Before one leaps to conclusions about the content of peoples mails, learn to investigate a little.
    There is a great danger in confusing the abuse of tantric doctrine with abuse itself: the two are distinct phenomena. it seems that a number of posters here, each of whom for whatever reasons exhibits an obvious bias against tantra, are totally unable to see this obvious distinction and are simply using this forum to vent their hatred of a teaching they do not understand.
    At least the comments on Islam were justified on the basis of citations. None of the critics of tantra has so far been able to produce equvalent citations with regard to tantra.
    Evidence of abuse by unscrupulous individuals in the name of tantra ( or any other form of Buddhism) is not the same of the relgion itself being abusive.
    Recently, a Theravadin senior in the UK was charged with twqo counts of rape (http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=3,10473,0,0,1,0)
    I do not see hordes of vajrayanists leaping to condemn theravadin doctirne on the basis of such distasteful acts. Perhaps Sankappa, you should take a look in your own house before declaring others filled with dirt. There again, I at least am intelligent enough to distinguish between human frailty and the Buddhas teaching. Are you?

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  274. Oh Sankappa
    Your doing it again, confusing people’s actions with their faith. tony Blair is a Christian-he bombs Iraq-The bible therefore says bomb Iraq? ridiculous as it may seem, this is the extent of your bigotted ‘logic’.

    Learning to see reality as it is, when one encounters a rose, it is called a rose, when one encounters someone clearly suffering from mental illness, we call them ‘mentally ill’. Get it?

    Does compassion mean we should refer to ‘That nice Mr Hilter’?
    get outta here.

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  275. Marte-Micaela and Giulia are not the same person.

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  276. And don’t forget this one from Anonymous: “I reoeat, indeed demand that you answer this question-exact reference please.”

    Also from Anonymous: “Sorry Marte, I meant marte not Giulia, the crazies here have so many names I am loosing track”

    These comments from somebody who has practiced in the Tantric tradition for more than 30 years. Not a great advertisement for the Vajrayana, I would suggest

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  277. Citation please, give me, give me citation, not werstern, give me, you will not leave without answer, you will not leave, not leave, sordid allegations, sordid, sordid, sordid, no western citation, give me, give me, no not Buddhistic academics, give me, give me, sordid, sordid …

    Calm. Peace. No thoughts. No fight. Silence.

    And: two cats got my tongue!

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  278. DI – I’ll try Suzanne – thank you.

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  279. No if someone tries to use the same name to confuse the rest of those making comments we do not see the solution as following your example telling us all your name!

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  280. GR? Crystal Meth or what???

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  281. Anonymous in the two last posts is not the same as the one whose comment starts: Like ‘Sankappa’?

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  282. DI Moderation calling on people to give up their anonymity is not acceptable on this blog. Answer the questions even if you do not try to gain advantage by using blackmail.

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  283. Eileen Barker is often away. I suggest you just email her and make the TO to Suzanne Newcombe who is a scholar in this field. My point is that they do not give out material to be plastered on the internet. They do give out information but it has to be treated with discretion. However, it up to them to respond. You will find a telephone number on the site as well. I suggest you use it!

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  284. GR: “I’m only a charlatan in red robes, but I can teach you meditation” “Oh, I will give you lots of money”

    G: “I have studied and practiced meditation since more than 30 years and hold a Ph.D. at an excellent university. I can teach you meditation” “Who the hell are You??”

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  285. “My name is G Rinpoche, people call me HH G; the Chinese have tried to kill me”. “Oh, how terrible!”

    “My name is G; some lamas have tried to poison me”. “You’re a nut case”.

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  286. Sheila You obviously havent received the secret teachings that Marte has-obviously youre ‘not ready yet’. Still no answers or citations Marte ‘What happened: cat got your tongue?

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  287. Kalachakra Tantra is not about violence any more than Jesus dying on the cross is a call to kill people by hanging them from trees, nor that communion is sneaky way to influence people toward being vampires.

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  288. PS Trimondi is a well known Shugden supporter

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  289. I see your quoting from non Buddhist academics again

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  290. Oh sorry-our posts crossed, otherwise Id have seen “So, I leave now and let you alone with your questions”

    Surely your not leaving without answering ANY OF MY QUESTIONS OR PROVIDING THE SCRIPTURAL CITATION TO SUPPORT YOUR SORDID ALLEGATION????

    I rest my case

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  291. Please point to the exact reference where tantra states rape is permissible practice.
    I do not read any tantric text that I have not received the transmission of, although I have received the kalachakra initiation (though I am not a rapist). It is considered entirely inappropriate to do so within the tantric tradition, hence it states ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE RECEIVED THE KALACAKRA INITIATION ARE PERMITTED TO READ THIS MATERIAL However, thank you for your invitation to break with the established tradition and ‘mix it up;
    By the way, have you received the Kalachakra initiation? Again, you have not answered my question as to whether you have completed the ngondro-Its two posts back so I guess it must have slipped your memory.
    Citation please.

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  292. So, I leave now and let you alone with your questions. Think, what you want, I don`t care.

    It might be shocking for many readers, but let me start by saying that Kalachakra­-tantra has nothing to do with peace, compassion­s, and freedom. In so-called Tantric Buddhism it was a misogynist­ic power quest performed by male initiates to accumulate sacred power of particular Buddhist deities (lower seven initiation­s open for all) and, through blending male and female fluids (top secret initiation­s that involved sexuality)­, to eventually turn themselves into superhuman androgynou­s beings. Moreover, part of the Kalachakra teaching was a militant Shambhala prophecy, a call for a Buddhist holy war against enemies of Buddhism, which might sound equally shocking to hear. Before the present Dalai Lama borrowed from Gandhi’s teaching, none of his predecesso­rs talked about non-violen­ce as a virtue. All this might be useful to know before coming to the Dalai Lama event in Washington DC. For more details on Kalachakra check my recently published book “Red Shambhala: Magic, Prophecy, and Geopolitic­s in the Heart of Asia” and especially on-line “Critical Forum Kalachakra­” hosted by Trimondi. This is not to offend His Holiness or his numerous American associates­. Moreover, we need to commend the Dalai Lama for taking steps to adjust his religion to modern humanistic values such as world peace, ecumenism, feminism, environmen­talism; why not to take a next step and openly explain to people what Kalachakra is? We have to be crystal clear: like any religion, Tibetan Buddhism has negative and positive sides.
    Andrei Znamenski, Associate Professor of History, Alabama State University

    Are people really that stupid?

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  293. Anonymous,

    here, in the instructions for the tantras you find the adviceses as I thought before.

    Again the follower of Shamar:

    “This is in the instructions for the Kalachakra, the Hevajra, and other tantras.” We should read properly.

    I read the Kalachakra-Tantra, published by the Dalai-Lama, in German. Only the first ten steps you will find there, from 11 to 15 there is anything said about. Because those steps are secret.

    But I found on Downthecrookedpath a commentary for the middle secret parts, from step 8 on:

    http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.com/2011/06/what-is-in-kalachakra-tantra.html

    The introduction is:

    ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE RECEIVED THE KALACAKRA INITIATION ARE PERMITTED TO READ THIS MATERIAL

    Are you ready for take up?

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  294. Oh I see the ‘link’-Its to your blogg. Period.

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  295. And your citation????

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  296. Excuses-no link, despite your claim, and you clutching at straws ‘does anybody have a quote actually? Withwinkle? Sankappa?’

    As for “So, when you read them, for example some about lotus, always is meant vagina, when you read bodhicitta, alwas is meant semen” this is yet more, partially educated nonsense (Did we ever expect otherwise?)

    While lotus and bodhicitta can certainly be used for the meanings you suggest, you totally overlook the fact that the lotus can be a symbol of compassion/purity or that, for example, the two ‘bodhicittas’ frequently refer to the wish to achieve enlightenment for the benefit of all combined with the understanding of the ultimate nature.

    All this is clear evidence that you are a partially educated, self-taught from books and the internet, mentally disturbed ‘tantrika’. If not, from whom did you receive these teachings?

    Your comments show you have no knowledge of sutra interpretations for example, and education in the sutras is an essential prerequisite of the tantric path. Have you completed any ngondro? have you even started the ngondro? Do you even know what ngondro is? How about the distinctions between kye rim and dzog rim? Do tell.

    The gloriously self serving “You have to be introduced in that secret reading, when not, you are in the eyes of your teacher not “ready” for the secret meanings.” hides a multitude of sins-In fact, you are giving yourself carte blanch to suggest that ANY OLD SHIT is tantra; we just dont know it because ‘we arent ready yet and anyway its secret.”

    Do you really think people are THAT stupid?

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  297. Ananymous, this comment of “a follower of Sharmar” is as unattributed as your comments. That is the result, when we do not communicate with our names.

    I gave you the link, where this comment is attributed to, you find it above.

    I will have a look for a quote from the tantras, but it may be, we find those advises only in the old comments to the tantras. That is nearly the same.

    Or does anybody have a quote actually? Withwinkle? Sankappa?

    All Tantras are written in a “dark-language”. So, when you read them, for example some about lotus, always is meant vagina, when you read bodhicitta, alwas is meant semen. You have to be introduced in that secret reading, when not, you are in the eyes of your teacher not “ready” for the secret meanings.

    So, I really can imagine you studying Tantras without any knowledge about.

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  298. Sutra means “thread” – tantra means “loom.”

    I think it’s beautiful imagery.

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  299. I reoeat, indeed demand that you answer this question-exact reference please. No western writers, just the original tantric text of the tibetan tradition. Page/folio number included. If you cannot find it then you should withdraw the comment.The quotes from the Quran above were cited correctly; not hearsay. They are therefore valid. Where is your citation?

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  300. Sorry Marte, I meant marte not Giulia, the crazies here have so many names I am loosing track

    ” rape is recommended. This is in the instructions for the Kalachakra, the Hevajra, and other tantras.”
    This, unattributed comment, (‘a follower of Shamar’) is total bullshit. It is hearsay of the worst kind. In more than three decades of studying the tantras I have never come across such a doctrine Utter bullshit. I challenge you to find one quotation from any tantric text of the tibetan tradition that makes such a statement

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  301. If you had any knowledge, you would see Mary Finnigan is NOT informative, but highly slanderous. Most of it is utterly stupid stuff she writes about.

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  302. Only in discussions with Yajrayana-Buddhists I made the experience that people were blamend for insanity of mind, like I was diagnosed here twice and now you, bellaB, do the same to withwindle and Mary Finnigan. It is a shame, really!

    Mary Finnigan does a great job reveiling the sexual abuse of Sogyal. She is not the only one, but she is well known as journalist and to be heard and hopefully effectiv. That is in my eyes worth admiring.

    We do not share the meaning about and the analyse of Yajrayana-Buddhism, but that is ok. According to that I never would argue that she is not sane. We have the freedom to choise our religion, it is a huge value.

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  303. withywindle

    “Tantric teachings are evil, but perhaps many disciples don’t realize this yet. The lama is allowed to lie, cheat, steal, have sex, drink wine, etc. If anyone wants to believe that these are Buddha’s teachings then have at it.”

    This is not evil. They are about transforming the mind. Destroy depression by transforming it to happiness and so. If you see evil in that, I don’t understand you.

    If you defend Mary Finnigan, you are really naive and don’t know nor understand anything. Just don’t be stupid and foolishly blind. She is not really sane.

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  304. Sankappa, THIS is an extremist view:

    “sankappa, on December 3, 2011 at 1:17 pm said:

    I think this needs to be read, and particularly by those who are still in denial about Sogyal and Rigpa:

    http://behindthethangkas.wordpress.com/

    You brought it here.

    That whole blog is utter BS of the worst kind.

    If you consider this as reliable evidence that you rely on, you are a complete FOOL. When somebody writes BS like that it is very difficult to prove it wrong to some newbie who doesn’t know anything, so you may as well believe the lunatic post.

    All those people mentioned in the blog belonging to a harem are okay people, who have lives and male friends of their own. They could very well bring the ANONYMOUS blogger (obviously Mary, by the outrageous BS talk) to the court if they knew who the person was.

    The writer of the blog is so mad and I think delusional, evil and filled with hate that is hard to understand. All of it fantasy. Why to do this? What could be the motivation? Insanity.

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  305. There was no Giulia, there only was withwindle who posted that interesting comment, including importend literature about tibetan tantrism. Your outing is not very sucessful. Shouldt I be outing you?Your style is superb, where ever you write.

    So in western society it is usual, that researchers of a religous topic do not need to be practicioners of that religion. Who supposes that, has a middle-age concept of researches.

    Of course today the tantric-tibetan Buddhist lost the leading definiton of what Buddhism is, what Yajrayana is because of the increasing “hordes”, which critically state the Yajrayana as an abusive practise in a systemic way. That hurts and make them aggressiv, denying the facts and hanging on to unholding positions. So every discussion is pointless.

    I quote again a follower of Shamar:

    “The public, and students of Tibetan Buddhism need to understand that the abuse problem is not a matter of a few unethical or ego-driven teachers; Nydahl, Sogyal, Trungpa and the many others like them are not exceptional cases. As Ms. Riepe said, abuse of women and girls (and abuse of boys in the monasteries) is systemic. Abuse of women and girls is inherent in the fundamental nature of Tantric Buddhism. The Tantric rituals, in fact, require it, and give instructions on how to make an unwilling “consort” compliant with alcohol. If the alcohol doesn’t have the desired effect, rape is recommended. This is in the instructions for the Kalachakra, the Hevajra, and other tantras.”

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  306. Giulia, before you start condemning tantra, which someone has clearly used as an excuse to abuse you, try practicing it for a few decades genuinely. There is a big difference between genuine practitioners (99.999% of whom remain unqualified to engage in its more esoteric practices since they quite rightly consider themselves completely unqualified) and the small minority of unscrupulous individuals, tibetan, indian and western, who have taken the same esoteric teachings and used them to justify abuse.
    The fact that you refer primarily to Westerners writing on tantra, without any first hand knowledge of its numerous facets, shows you are not educated in its practices or in its restrictions. Like others who post here then, you are unqualified to comment on its efficacy. You are just another member of the increasing hordes who cannot see the difference between a valid religious doctrine and abusers who take its principles and transform them into tools for the initiation of abuse. Bigoted religious intolerance is normally based on ignorance and those who post here, in the name of religious purity, are no exception to this established rule.

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  307. claiming tantra is abusive simply because a few unscrupulous tibetans have used it to abuse gullible westerners is about the same as saying that Catholicism is abusive because a few unscrupulous priests have used it to justify having their evil way with innocent children. Learn to see the difference between religion and the abuse of religious principles for personal gain-the two are very different. This thread started on a page about a tibetan (sogyal) using tantra to justify his sexually predatory behaviour. It has now degenerated into a thread for anti tibetan, anti tantric intollerant bigots to post in and to advocate crusades against a religion. AND I GET CALLED EXTREMIST!There are a lot of sick bigots posting here in the name of religion,not just one

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  308. The post above is mine, and the one talking about 8th century brought to Tibet is also mine. I can’t post as withywindle it seems.

    What I want to say about Mary is this: She is like all disciples who desire to protect their own religion and so refuse to see that there is a lot of abuse in it. I have said this before I am sure. But abused people in Hinduism and Buddhism are not believed, and those who go along with Mary are doing the same thing.

    Tantric teachings are evil, but perhaps many disciples don’t realize this yet. The lama is allowed to lie, cheat, steal, have sex, drink wine, etc. If anyone wants to believe that these are Buddha’s teachings then have at it.

    sankappa, all you have to do is read the tantras, and you will see that this person’s views are not extreme but that tantric teachings are extreme. and you can buy the books online. one book that was not supposed to have gotten into the hands of others is on amazon, commentary of the kalacakra by a tibet lama who the dalai lama wanted to come and teach it in america. Gesehe Lharampa Ngawang Dhargyey. and History of Tantric Religion by N.N. Bhattacharyya. and Lust for Enlightenment by John Stevens. and Tantrism by Benjamin Walker. Struggle for Modern Tibet is also good.

    It is my believe that lamas pick and choose who they want to have sex with and then tell them to hush up about it. Then others in the group have no idea what is going on and think the lama is a great guy, and if it comes out most don’t believe.

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  309. There should be a crusade against Tantra

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  310. Like ‘Sankappa’?

    I too ‘abhor extremism’ whether it is in Islam or it manifests as anti Vajrayana.dogma.

    You are a walking contradiction Sankappa, you abhor extremism in others but profess extremist views yourself. you pose under a pseudonym and condemn others for not using names. (I have no name,but some call me the nameless one.)’Why dont you have some guts and post under a pseudonym’??Cant you see the pathetic stupidity of such a question?

    Again I ask, do you believe beating women, burning non believers and waging war against those who dont follow your faith are all acceptable practices? All of these sentiments are overtly expressed in the Quran. If you do not support such practices are you, like me, an extremist bigot? If you do support them, (entirely Quranic as they are) and yet condemn vajrayana what sort of schizoid person are you?

    Face it sankappa, you are as filled with hatred as the next extremist. I suppose I could suggest that such hatred was ‘ typical of the Hinayana’ but that would be as stupid as suggesting it was typically vajrayana. If there are ‘many paths, only one goal’ oh preacher of tolerance, what is the problem with the vajrayana- I dont see its scriptures advocating waging war, burning opponents or beating and imprisoning women-so whats the beef? Been abused by a tantric charlatan? Had relatives experience the same? I had a friend killed in the Twin Towers but I still count muslims amongst my friends.Even had a girlfriend stolen by a lama. So who is the intolerant religious bigot here?

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  311. No Anonymous I abhor extremism whether it is Islam or Vajrayana. You are an extremist, this is plainly obvious. The last thing I will be saying to you is have some guts and start posting under an distinct and identifiable pseudonym.

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  312. PPS Sankapaa

    I might just as easily comment

    I find your views on tantra extreme and repugnant, and I will not be communicating with you any further on this!
    The ugly face of anti Vajrayana extremism emerges

    You are on a personal crusade against tantra.However, Its fine for you to berate and condemn tantra, even claim it is a false religion, but not for someone to hold views akin to yours towards islam? Double standards,hypocrisy, bigotry.

    Your position is completely lacking in logical consistency, condemning in a bigoted fashion one faith ‘other than your own’ outright on the one hand while claiming on the other hand that others who condemn faiths other than their own are holders of extreme and repugnant views. So its ok for you to hold such views but not for anyone else to hold similar ones? Please explain.

    Again, I seek your response on whether you believe beating women, burning non believers and waging war who dont follow your faith are all acceptable practices? All of these sentiments are overtly expressed in the Quran (see citations above) Do you believe we should tolerate these? Are they acceptable practices?.

    The wider you open your mouth, the further down your throat goes your foot

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  313. ‘Perhaps this is a Vajrayana stance.’

    Nothing to do with vajrayana, Sankhappa. Just his own bigotry and ignorance and righteous rage. Very sad.

    unsubscribes

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  314. “Sankappa-no i am not the anonymous who posted the comment you ask about.” I didn’t think it was, but needed to confirm this. However, I don’t think there is any chance that we will be getting you two confused, particularly judging by your last posts.

    I find your views on Islam extreme and repugnant, and I will not be communicating with you any further on this!

    The ugly face of Vajrayana extremism emerges…

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  315. PS Good night

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  316. Guilty by association? Dont think so Sankappa, but nice try; devious and manipulative, bitter and twisted (but I dont claim those are characteristics of the Theravada)-more bigoted sectarian insults I see? How come its cool to ‘tolerate’ Islam but not cool to tolerate tantra? Double standards; hypocrisy? Looks that way
    By the way, does that mean that you believe beating women, burning non believers and waging war who dont follow your faith are all acceptable practices? Looks that way Pray do tell us your position on such issues.
    Truly, the dharma will be destroyed from the inside

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  317. So looks like you are in agreement with bellaB, Anonymous. Wow that’s a cause for alarm. You’re not worried about that then? Perhaps this is a Vajrayana stance.

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  318. Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise Quran 4-56

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  319. Sankappa-no i am not the anonymous who posted the comment you ask about.

    Again your views on Islam, like your views on tantrra, are conditioned by current, politically correct social mores. Things change dontcha know? The attempt to blacken my perspective through association with Loonie Noodle are risible-read the papers, watch the news and then tell me Islam is a tolerant ‘religion of peace’ or is it the case that many of the atrocities and wars in the world being carried out in the name of Islam (18000 terror attacks in the last 10 years in the name of Islam-http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Top-10-Reasons.htm)??

    “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” (9:29) Yeah, the religion of peace. Doesnt anyone think tolerating the intolerant might just be a slippery slope?Or should I keep my mouth shut for fear of offending by contradicting current social mores?

    And if you DO favour politically correct tolerance of the intolerant……there is no place in the Quran where Muhammad commands Muslims to love people of other religions. By contrast there are at least three dozen verses that tell Muslims to fight against non-Muslims and about 500 that speak of their place in Hell.

    Maybe if you think Islam is cool, you think that its OK to imprison lippy women in their bedrooms and beat them up (Quran 4:34)? Or are we going to see a claim that this particular verse isnt the teaching of the Quran because it facilitates abuse and doesnt fit in with contemporary social mores?

    As for your statistics, dont you know, 84% of statistics are made up? (and 13 halfs ofa quarter of epople cant do fractions?)

    Lies, damned lies and statistics. Get to your room or you willl get a beating (which is perfectly fine, I suppose)!.

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  320. Just read the Quran.

    People are people but Islam is a fascist ideology.

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  321. I find your view, Bellab and also Anonymous’ slagging off the Muslims incredibly offensive and divisive. The Muslims are I find a gentle people, the fundamentalists among them are a different thing entirely, but the majority of peaceful Muslims reject them too.

    This thread is fastly degenerating into a rather uptight and sectarian place altogether. It goes against any of the inter-faith meetings of minds.

    Maybe religion really does need to become a thing of the past. Meditation and secular viewpoints don’t have so much righteousness attached to them.

    God, I hate righteousness.
    Have a good day y’all.

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  322. Tibetans and Buddhists in India have lived close to Muslims over the centuries.

    In India Buddhism was a state religion – and Muslim invasion had a great impact in its disappearance from India. Muslims burnt Nalanda University (the biggest Buddhist library) and monks ALIVE. Everything gone.

    Dzongsar Khyentse in the film Words of My Perfect Teacher said that the Bhutanese gave the name George Bush to their children, because GB was the only one fighting against the Muslims. There are strong roots for the critical view because Buddhists have negative experiences about Muslims. Now the Christians or Western people are slowly waking into the awareness, again.

    Muslims are allowed to kill polytheists and people who don’t believe in god.

    Muslims can tax Christians and Jews, the people of the Book, but they can’t have equal social status in the society where Muslims rule.

    Who doesn’t oppose Islam is ‘a bit’ stupid.

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  323. DI – I don’t know where the documents are – no one has answered my emails. Maybe Barker et al are on holiday? I don’t know the holiday schedule there.

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  324. Anonymous, are you the same Anonymous that posted this?:

    Anonymous, on December 9, 2011 at 10:17 pm said:

    The tantras have never been widely accepted. When they were brought to Tibet in the 8th Century they were highly criticized, even in Hinduism they were criticized as evil, and this in ancient times. Maybe someone can enlarge on this for me as I am posting at a late time for me and don’t wish to get out the facts. But Buddha never taught the tantras, that is just something that the lamas tell people and people in turn believe it.

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  325. Well Anonymous, I didn’t think you would go on to justify and defend your claims you made of “Islamist bigots”, but astoundingly you have:

    “…but I must say I am more than a little worried by the antics of those who follow the so called religion of peace-remember Indian history and what they did to Buddhism last time??And the twin towers? All in the name of Islam-is my fear bigoted? is it based on historical experience?”

    Wow, this is such a deluded and stereotypical view of what is an extremely complex situation, and shows your narrow-minded, shallow and intolerant thinking on the matter. I have encountered this view and similar comments among Vajrayana practitioners before, from personal comments made to me (in Rigpa!) and in other places on the net, from Ole Nydal and now you! (Is this attitude endemic in TB or just amongst certain groups?)

    Also, I’m going to restate my position, and again I don’t give a hoot whether you think it’s sectarian, this is not about creating division in Buddhism, but addressing the bigger threat to Buddhism at the moment; that is the 6% of the Vajrayana world dragging down the 94% of Buddhism due to sexual, financial and spiritual abuse of practitioners.

    As Vera said Anonymous, get a name too, it would be far less confusing.

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  326. When you put in two links it thinks it is spam. We have to check it hence the delay!

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  327. Please, DI, what does it mean:

    Your comment is awaiting moderation, and why? It wasn`t before, but now I read it twice. Thanks!

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  328. It had nothing to do with Victoria Barlow appearing but with the bombing of the sites.
    If Victoria wishes to post here, just send us a document.
    Where are your documents Sheila?

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  329. Only the names have been changed to protect the innocent;)

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  330. I don’t want to know your real name, but posting as Anonymous and writing to someone else also called Anonymous is confusing. So, you’re not the Buddhist Expert…my mistake.

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  331. “If I have claimed certain posters here are mentally ill and that their state of mind invalidates their claims, I stand by those comments. Giulia, for example claimed the Tibetans were trying to kill her and Marte claimed to have been forced into realising tummo. To point out the ridiculousness of such claims is a valid response IMO and not an ad hominem attack.”

    The second I am diagnosed by as a mind invalidates, phantastic!

    Again, for those who are slow:

    “Anonymous said…
    We need more personal testimony from people who have been harmed by Tantric practices and teachers. Thank you, Marte Riepe, for sharing your experience. The public, and students of Tibetan Buddhism need to understand that the abuse problem is not a matter of a few unethical or ego-driven teachers; Nydahl, Sogyal, Trungpa and the many others like them are not exceptional cases. As Ms. Riepe said, abuse of women and girls (and abuse of boys in the monasteries) is systemic. Abuse of women and girls is inherent in the fundamental nature of Tantric Buddhism. The Tantric rituals, in fact, require it, and give instructions on how to make an unwilling “consort” compliant with alcohol. If the alcohol doesn’t have the desired effect, rape is recommended. This is in the instructions for the Kalachakra, the Hevajra, and other tantras. P.S. Marte–Shamar Rinpoche used to have letters on his website that he wrote denouncing Ole Nydahl and the way he turned the Kagyu tradition into a sex cult. He was forced to remove those letters when Nydahl threatened him with legal action. Shamar has founded a network of Bodhi Path Centers around the world that teach basic Buddhism and the bodhisattva way, without Vajrayana (tantra). He believes teaching tantra was a mistake, and states on his website that tantra is not appropriate for the current era and conditions in the world. (see http://www.shamarpa.org in the “Statements” section, under “Why Bodhi Path Centers don’t teach Vajrayana”)
    September 16, 2011 2:52 PM

    http://marte-micaela-riepe.blogspot.com/2011/10/thursday-july-14-2011-ole-nydahl.html

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  332. Who claimed to be a Buddhist expert; where? I have no wish to reveal my name anymore than any other poster who chooses to remain anonymous. It is the slippery slope which ends in ad hominem attacks, as Mary Finnegan found. I have yet to identify those ad hominem attack Sankappa accuses me of-I have only ever condemned sectarianism, bigotry and abuse. If I have claimed certain posters here are mentally ill and that their state of mind invalidates their claims, I stand by those comments. Giulia, for example claimed the Tibetans were trying to kill her and Marte claimed to have been forced into realising tummo. To point out the ridiculousness of such claims is a valid response IMO and not an ad hominem attack. You may differ.
    Please enlightren me as to where I claimed to be an expert???

    PS “As for me, I know little” is what my friend George Churinoff.used to call the pride of humility back in the 80s. I find disingenuous claims of humility to be as arrogant as claims of expert status, dont you?

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  333. …well it’s such a far cry from HH Dalai Lama who despite having a high view, says he is a simple monk.

    It seems to be a dichotomy to be a Buddhist Expert-sorry, but it smacks of self-importance. I am sure though you are a sincere and earnest practitioner. As for me, I know little. Would you mind giving yourself a name-any name will do, but when you write under Anonymous and quote someone else (as you did above) who you are disputing with also called Anonymous, it looks like you are talking to yourself, and is very hard to follow, to all apart from you and Anonymous.

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  334. ‘Snigger snigger’? And your point is?

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  335. It is the patronizing high-handed tone with which you dish it out. You must be the Buddhist Expert.

    snigger snigger.

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  336. Condemning abuse and sectarianism is not being ‘on a high horse’ Vera,claiming that Tibetan Buddhism=sexual abuse when you dont even know anything about it and expousing bigoted sectarian views is. I can accept that certain individuals have a greater knowledge and wider perspective than me. Can you?

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  337. FFS! Get off your high horse, Anonymous…

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  338. I can not see what you are aguing aout.

    “In fact, it is my critics here who attack religion and, in some cases, support abuse.” Where did you find one here who supports that view?

    Analyse is analyse, Buddhas qote is Buddha`s qoute and not an secterian attack.

    For the one who believes the earth is flat, no argument counts, in his eyes it is all haresie. So aggressivliy behave the tantric-tibetan Buddhist and their werstern followers. You should work with choler, shouldn`t you. It`s all blue…

    I found the reaction of Nydahl recording to the letter of Sharmapa about him in a comment of a follower of Sharmapa as a reaction to my testimony:

    “Anonymous said…
    We need more personal testimony from people who have been harmed by Tantric practices and teachers. Thank you, Marte Riepe, for sharing your experience. The public, and students of Tibetan Buddhism need to understand that the abuse problem is not a matter of a few unethical or ego-driven teachers; Nydahl, Sogyal, Trungpa and the many others like them are not exceptional cases. As Ms. Riepe said, abuse of women and girls (and abuse of boys in the monasteries) is systemic. Abuse of women and girls is inherent in the fundamental nature of Tantric Buddhism. The Tantric rituals, in fact, require it, and give instructions on how to make an unwilling “consort” compliant with alcohol. If the alcohol doesn’t have the desired effect, rape is recommended. This is in the instructions for the Kalachakra, the Hevajra, and other tantras. P.S. Marte–Shamar Rinpoche used to have letters on his website that he wrote denouncing Ole Nydahl and the way he turned the Kagyu tradition into a sex cult. He was forced to remove those letters when Nydahl threatened him with legal action. Shamar has founded a network of Bodhi Path Centers around the world that teach basic Buddhism and the bodhisattva way, without Vajrayana (tantra). He believes teaching tantra was a mistake, and states on his website that tantra is not appropriate for the current era and conditions in the world. (see http://www.shamarpa.org in the “Statements” section, under “Why Bodhi Path Centers don’t teach Vajrayana”)
    September 16, 2011 2:52 PM

    http://marte-micaela-riepe.blogspot.com/2011/10/thursday-july-14-2011-ole-nydahl.html

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  339. “showing some of that famous Vajrayana compassion hey?” is also a bigoted sectarian comment BTW-I suggest you do not comment on a relgious tradition you clearly have only scant knowledge of. Like you I condemn abuse. However I also beleive sectarianism ‘is the real threat, and also the concern of this thread’ as you put it.

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  340. SAMNKAPPA

    I use only the same tactic as those who express sectarian views, as you will see if you look-I think personally that Nydahl is a complete loonie but I must say I am more than a little worried by the antics of those who follow the so called religion of peace-remember Indian history and what they did to Buddhism last time??And the twin towers? All in the name of Islam-is my fear bigoted? is it based on historical experience?
    Nobody has condemned allegations of abuse a s ‘sectarian’ i think youll find (check!) Only attacks on Tibetan Buddhism which IMO ARE sectarian.
    You also show a lack of understanding of contemporary Buddhist history-The overwhelming majority of abuse scandals in the US for example are in the Zen tradition. I also suggest you take a look at Dhammakaya International in Thailand if you want evidence that you may well be another pot calling the kettle black.
    At the end of the day, I am against the abuse of Dhamma in all its guises, be it Tibetan, japanese, or Thai. You perhaps need to learn to distinguish between those who support abuse and those who support religion. In fact, it is my critics here who attack religion and, in some cases, support abuse.

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  341. Well, you’re obviously not too adverse to the ad hominem attack Anonymous – showing some of that famous Vajrayana compassion hey?

    “Isnt that the dogmatic approach of Islamist bigots??” Fine slagging off that is, to 18% of the world’s population. Maybe you are picking-up some of Ole Nydal’s intolerance and bigotry on Islamic people.

    Furthermore, and I not going to pull any punches. The complaints of abuse in Buddhism are almost exclusively coming from Lamas in Tantric Buddhism and I don’t give a rat’s arse whether you think that is a sectarian comment, I’m more concerned about the people copping the abuse at the hands of these lamas now and the ones who will in the future, and this is the real threat, and also the concern of this thread.

    Tibetan Tantrism needs to clean-up it’s act!

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  342. Like she does mine?
    I refer you to this post
    Anonymous, on December 10, 2011 at 11:14 am said:
    It is of note that the Mahayana traditions strictly forbid any attacks on the Theravadin ‘Hinayana’ tradition since this is a slippery slope, the ‘thin end of the wedge’ which will clearly one day lead to the internally manufactured destruction of the Dharma that the Buddha spoke of.Both Sankappa and Dramadamsel profess views so sectarian and narrow in their perspective that they/she is clearly unaware of such an admonishment.
    In my own opinion, as a Mahayana practitioner, the Theravadin path is a complete path to liberation, as is my own.’
    Is that not respect?
    You did not answer the question re evidence of Nydahls legal threat

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  343. Uuups, Anonymous, heavently you are not given any power to burn someone for his belief.

    Why don`t you respect Dharmadamsels view?

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  344. Marte=Shamar stopped teaching Tantra but did not declare it invalid-he merely stated that Westerners were unsuitable for tantra and that they should stick to the sutra path

    Your blog states Loonie Nydahl threatened legal action-where is your evidence for this?I cannot find any-I suggest this is your fantasy

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  345. “I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; ‘
    Quite-it is you that make such a distinction-bigoted dogmatic sectarianism-I invite you to get back in your well and keep your nasty condescending views to yourself

    Remember the Theravada makes up only 30% of the worlds Buddhists, the majority of the remaining, Mahayana Buddhists follow traditions that accepted tantra as valid. by claiming tantric buddhism is invalid, you therefore condemn as heretics 70% of the worlds buddhists. And BTW, since when does quoting from your own scriptures validate your view? Isnt that the dogmatic approach of Islamist bigots??

    You area sectarian bigot Madam, as is clear from your statements and your reasoning. I see no reason for you to post here since this discussion is not about the validity of religious doctrine.

    Sectarain bigotry will destroy Buddhism as easily as well sexual abusers-That puts you on their level

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  346. Sorry, I forgot:

    A so called high incarnation, Shamar of the Kagüy.sect, stopped teaching Tantrism and went back to Buddhas lessons. That is really a revolution within the tibetan Buddhism.

    Read more here:

    http://marte-micaela-riepe.blogspot.com/2011/10/answer-by-kunzig-shamar-rinpoche-to.html

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  347. May be a shame in your eyes, that Vajrayana-Mahayana traditions are analysied and eclipsed in the context they belong to.

    The time of having the leading definition about what Buddhism is has ended for tibetan Tantrism. It is a cool fact, nothing to get in feelings about.

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  348. Thanks Anonymous, I had already read the frog in the well.

    Although the link to the text you gave me obviously points out that Tantric and Esoteric Buddhism spread throughout East Asia, I have no qualm with, but this doesn’t change the fact that tantric and esoteric teachings were not part of the historical Buddhas teachings.

    Here, from the Maha-parinibbana Sutta, where the Buddha was very explicit about this in regard to esoteric teachings: “I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back.” Tantric Buddhism is full of esoteric teachings the Buddha’s teachings were not.

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  349. It is of note that the Mahayana traditions strictly forbid any attacks on the Theravadin ‘Hinayana’ tradition since this is a slippery slope, the ‘thin end of the wedge’ which will clearly one day lead to the internally manufactured destruction of the Dharma that the Buddha spoke of.Both Sankappa and Dramadamsel profess views so sectarian and narrow in their perspective that they/she is clearly unaware of such an admonishment.
    In my own opinion, as a Mahayana practitioner, the Theravadin path is a complete path to liberation, as is my own. It is a shame that those who speak from a somewhat narrower perspective have chosen this forum (which is not for the purposes of airing bigoted sectarian views but for discussing issues of cultic abuse) to launch their attacks on the Mahayana Vajrayana traditions.

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  350. Sankappa said, Tantra might be a part only of the tibetan Buddhism recording to other buddhist schools and that is right, if you like it or not. May be, that India-influenced esoteric Buddhism has that “greatest geographical spread of any form of Buddhism”, but what does that mean? It spread Into regions with a very limeted amount of people, mostly were living in nomadic cultures with a low standard of living and an archaic, magical worldview. In those societies the esoteric Buddhism became successful.

    Tibetan Tantrism is really a small sect within the buddhism community. The all-presence of the Dalai Lama in western society covers the facts.

    What about the frog?

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  351. Sankappa
    Tantra might be part of the TIBETAN Buddhist path? No, tantra comes from India. It left its imprint not only on its native India, but far beyond, on Southeast Asia, Central Asia, including Tibet and Mongolia, as well as the East Asian countries China, Korea and Japan.

    http://www.brill.nl/esoteric-buddhism-and-tantras-east-asia

    I refer you to the story of the frog in the well above

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  352. “Why was V Barlow told to go away as soon as she started repeating her allegations against HH Sakya Trizin?”

    Dialogue Ireland has an established policy of exercising caution when it comes to publishing allegations against prominent figures of all faiths. Rather than engaging in knee jerk reactions on the basis of single allegations, DI errs on the side of caution, not publishing anything unless there are multiple allegations from multiple sources. as in the case of Sogyal Lakar, for example.

    In the case of both Sakya Trizin and Kalu Rinpoche, both are highly regarded throughout the Buddhist world as exemplary beings. Both have been the subject of a single allegation from one, single source, not repeated allegations of varied nature over a long period of time.

    In such cases, DI holds to the position that there is inadequate, substantial evidence of abuse to merit publication. Such an approach seems entirely reasonable in these days where a primary weapon of those opposed to religion is the employment of abuse allegations: the CCP/NKT campaign to discredit the current Dalai Lama is evidence of the prevalence of such a low handed and devious tactic’s popularity.

    Again, “A lie told often enough becomes the truth”. Since Ms Barlow was using these pages to circumnavigate the policy set out above via the technique of repetition, and in the absence of corroborating evidence/allegations, it seemed entirely appropriate that her repeated assertions were here curtailed.

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  353. DI, I would like to talk to your Irish woman in person, but it is impossible, I know. So far nothing you’ve told me about her has made me form any image of her. It’s too blurry. I wish her all the best, whatever her suffering may be.

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  354. DI, I wrote Eileen three days ago. I’ll try Suzanne. This is not about discretion – this is about exposing abuse. If people aren’t willing to act, there’s nothing I’ll be able to do with the material.

    Mary Finnigan does not believe the “witnesses” in the case of removed, either.

    That means Victoria Barlow’s strongest supporter either selectively believes her testimony on Sogyal Rinpoche, or selectively disbelieves her testimony on removed.

    Why did DI shut down the other thread as soon as Victoria Barlow appeared? Why was she told to go away as soon as she started repeating her allegations against removed?

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  355. Bellab why do you repeat yourself so much. We know you do not believe the witnesses, what is new.
    Even if an angel was to bring you into the bedroom and show them at it you would say you were seeing things
    Should have gone to specsavers!

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  356. Inform does not hand out reports like confetti. Have you written to them?
    http://www2.lse.ac.uk/sociology/research/INFORM/whosWho.aspx
    I suggest you write to Suzanne Newcombe and that you copy in Eileen Barker.
    They will expect discretion as they have to protect the innocent!

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  357. “Well, the truth is that whether or not Sogyal is a highly realized being is in the eye of the beholder, it’s not a fact.”

    It’s not a fact, but since many high lamas considers him so and he also has a lot of followers I think in many people’s eyes he is quite special.

    “Why do you assume people are blindly following Mary, and haven’t arrived at their opinions through their own experience or on the basis of testimony of friends, or other means, such as the lawsuit, the Canadian documentary, and other media articles?”

    Who has here expressed any own experiences? Testimony of friends? Who has had a friend here that was abused? (JB’s male friends girlfriend, whose story is just a sentence: at least for me that is not enough evidence.) Lawsuit was sort of cancelled and we don’t know any details, except Victoria Barlow’s view. Canadian doc had 3 women talking: MF, who hasn’t been abused, VB by her own story seemed like a closer friend than some random student – and a young woman whose father was a student of SR. I don’t know details of her story. She chose a name Mimi for the documentary after a real student in Rigpa (I don’t think it was an accident). I have a feeling that the documentary is quite dodgy.

    “Women who speak out about abuse in TB are doing so on behalf of other women, to warn others of the risks, and to let abused women know they’re not alone and they there are people they can turn to for support. It’s a humanitarian effort. ”

    I’m also a woman and I have spoken with other, REAL living women in Rigpa: no evidence there. If I had gotten a hint in real life that there is some basis for the accusations, I would be more willing to believe internet gossip. Unfortunately for you, but luckily for women in Rigpa, I have nothing to share.

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  358. “Tantra is far more than Tibetan and Indian” that maybe true Sheila but it is not part of the Buddhist path, it might be part of the TIBETAN Buddhist path, but let’s no confuse the two.

    Tantra, mantra, and esoteric teachings have more to do with Hinduism then they do Buddhism. Tibetan Buddhism offers lip service to the basic tenets of Buddhism, but beyond that, in practice it hardly resembles the Buddhist path.

    Oh, and thanks to Dharmadamsel, Marte and Vera for so succinctly making such good points!

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  359. Tantra is far more than Tibetan and Indian. The principle of working with all of life’s energies–positive/negative, male/female, etc.–can be seen all throughout Asia.

    Judo and Aikido are very tantric in their approach, for example–using the opposing force of your “enemy” toward your goal, instead of trying to block it with force.

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  360. It’s true. When Padmasambhava brought tantra to Tibet, the Queen was outraged, and tried to stamp it out. Santarakshita first taught and debated Buddhism in Tibet, but Padmasambhava’s brand of Buddhism was very different from what Santarakshita presented.

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  361. The tantras have never been widely accepted. When they were brought to Tibet in the 8th Century they were highly criticized, even in Hinduism they were criticized as evil, and this in ancient times. Maybe someone can enlarge on this for me as I am posting at a late time for me and don’t wish to get out the facts. But Buddha never taught the tantras, that is just something that the lamas tell people and people in turn believe it.

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  362. This is the text that led me here:

    Mary Finnigan,英国新闻记者,也是藏传佛教评论家。她曾帮助索甲仁波切将藏密事业打入伦敦社会,为此她感到后悔。她说:‘索甲仁波切杂交,在1970年代中期是藏传佛教圈中每个人都知道的事,从那时以来,他一直有规律的在从事这件事。但是他假装的很好(…)。
    (Sogyal’s promiscuity was obvious to every one in the mid-1970s in the Buddhist community and that’s what he has been doing systematically ever since,” she said. “But he puts on a good show. He offers people a dumbed-down version o Buddhism which appeals to people who want a quick fix.”)’(摘自:Dialogue Ireland)

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  363. Sheila,

    could you please post the link to the chinese site?

    I have contact to a taiwan-chinese orthodox-buddhistic group and they have on their sites a link to DI. They are of course Chinese, but also buddhistic, they argue against the mythologiy of tibetan Tantrism from a orthodox-budhist view.

    Thanks, dharmadasel!

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  364. “You introduced the so-called Chinese connection here”

    Vera, I didn’t introduce it here–I followed it here.

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  365. “The Buddha never taught tantra. It’s Vajrayana mythology that he did” Is that the stench of rampant sectarianism I detect? Heres an old Buddhist story for Dramadamsel

    Once a frog that lived in a well bragged to a turtle that lived in the Sea.

    “I am so happy!” cried the frog, “When I go out, I jump about on the railing around the edge of the well.
    When I come home, I rest in the holes inside the wall of the well.
    If I jump into the water, it comes all the way up to my armpits and I can float on my belly.
    If I walk in the mud, it covers up my flippered feet.
    I look around at the wriggly worms, crabs, and tadpoles, and none of them can compare with me.
    I am lord of this well and I stand tall here. My happiness is great.
    My dear sir, why don’t you come more often and look around my place?”

    Before the turtle from the Sea could get its left foot in the well, its right knee got stuck. It hesitated and retreated. The turtle told the frog about the Sea.

    “Even a distance of a thousand miles cannot give you an idea of the sea’s width; even a height of a thousand meters cannot give you an idea of its depth.
    In the time of the great floods, the waters in the sea did not increase. During the terrible droughts, the waters in the sea did not decrease.
    The sea does not change along with the passage of time and its level does not rise or fall according to the amount of rain that falls. The greatest happiness is to live in the Sea.”

    After listening to these words, the frog of the shallow well was shocked into realization of his own insignificance and became very ill at ease.

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  366. Well, the truth is that whether or not Sogyal is a highly realized being is in the eye of the beholder, it’s not a fact.

    Siding with Mary is like siding with Judas Iscariot? Wow, there’s some hyperbole if I ever saw it! Why do you assume people are blindly following Mary, and haven’t arrived at their opinions through their own experience or on the basis of testimony of friends, or other means, such as the lawsuit, the Canadian documentary, and other media articles? Women who speak out about abuse in TB are doing so on behalf of other women, to warn others of the risks, and to let abused women know they’re not alone and they there are people they can turn to for support. It’s a humanitarian effort.

    JB: you’re right: there’s nothing wrong with tantra if both partners are willing and participating as equals, and the problem is when abuses happen. What people are saying is that the reason sexual abuse happens in Tibetan Buddhism is that tantra is at its core, and there are teachers who abuse that. This is to differentiate Tibetan Buddhism from other Buddhist traditions that aren’t tantric, and to educate practitioners, newcomers and women who have suffered abuse as to one of the reasons why there’s risk involved in following that tradition. Many people don’t know that TB is a tantric tradition, and some get a rude surprise. It’s not to say that tantra is inherently abusive, but the way it’s been practiced for the last millenium or more, in both Hindu and Buddhist traditions, it’s been misogynistic and male-dominated.

    Some of the abuse is about abuse of power and trust, and can happen in non-tantric traditions, as we’ve seen in Zen.

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  367. Why don’t you Vera and the rest read ThomasKent’s answer to MF’s slander in RR. I copied it in this thread. All Mary could do, was answer: “We live in parallel universes”. She has solid ideas and whomever would know better, is ignored completely. There’s no point in asking her. It’s called narcissism, nothing less.

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  368. “Why do you keep bringing up the Chinese?

    I’m sorry, but I don’t share y’all’s obsession with Sogyal Rinpoche. Most people in the world will never meet him.”

    Oh come off it Shiela Shigley. You have mentioned the Chinese through most of your posts even going so far as to type in Chinese. You introduced the so-called Chinese connection here, probably to try and smur the testimony or Ms Finnegan. Ms Finnegan is easy to find I should think so why not write to her and ask her?

    So answer my questions above.
    There’s one word for you Shiela Shigley-
    DISINGENUOUS.

    (Thanks Dharmadamsel)

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  369. Sheila, it’s not true that no one answered your question about Sakya Trizin. I did. Maybe you missed it.

    The Buddha never taught tantra. It’s Vajrayana mythology that he did.

    Welcome, Vera. Great post. : )

    If Sheila wants to put up a list of safe teachers on the internet, go ahead. But others will also be putting up lists of safe and unsafe teachers, so anyone wanting to look into who is safe, who is legitimate, and so on, will have to cross-check. And even then, everyone should be cautious, anyway. That doesn’t mean joining a sangha with suspicions in mind, it just means keeping general warnings in the back of one’s mind, and never surrendering one’s critical thinking skills to any guru. After all, Buddhism is about evaluating the teachings, testing everything, and that extends to the guru and the sangha as well.

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  370. So far I didn’t find any testimonies that I would count as convincing. If all this is on the level of gossip, people rather believe Sogyal Rinpoche, who is a highly realized being, very different from ordinary folk. He is also considered a very high lama among the Tibetans. He may not be Jesus, but he has something to offer that goes beyond Western thinking.

    The main speakers for this cause are both not completely reliable. MF is much worse than it seems: some strange hatred that goes beyond rationality – and I believe it’s intense personal hatred, because no reason can influence her stories. It’s blind somehow. I hope you people keep your guard up and check about her testimony and analysis. Anyone who has been in Rigpa, can laugh. She herself thinks she can trick people. Something is wrong. Alarm bells should ring with everyone. Those people who have only visited Rigpa and don’t really know anything, are easy pray for MF’s manipulations.

    I seriously want to ask all of you: are you easily manipulated people or do you want to know the truth? If you side with Mary without questioning it’s like you are siding with Judas Iscariot. He was also weak. Don’t decide, just question!

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  371. Vera,

    Why do you keep bringing up the Chinese?

    I’m sorry, but I don’t share y’all’s obsession with Sogyal Rinpoche. Most people in the world will never meet him.

    In order to be effective, a list has to have hundreds of teachers on it; I’m not doing an expose on this or that teacher, but trying to get a list of reputable teachers, from the four main sects (though I would hope to add Bon at some point. I’m leaving NKT alone because it’s just to much of a mess – those are my caveats for now).

    removed is a very influential figure, and has been mentioned in this particular article, so I’ve been asking about him. Though I expect the list to be long, I also try to prioritize “big names” first so that if the working list is short, it can be helpful to as many people as possible right off the bat.

    Is there someone here who has a copy of the Inform report they could send? Or if you’re squirrely about email exchanges, just post it to a Mediafire folder or something?

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  372. Correction to above post:
    I doubt many people read a list of who is safe or not. I think if they did Rigpa wouldn’t be functioning still.

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  373. Shiela, have you seen the testimonies in the blog above listed? It maybe they are quite a good indicator that Sogyal is not safe.
    I think in this case either all the testimonies are a) true b) false
    It seems you are pretty certain they are b.
    It seems strange too that you have no vested interest to be spending so much time in order to clear the muddy waters that swirl around Rigpa. I doubt many people read a list of who is safe or not if I was looking for a teacher. I think if they did Rigpa wouldn’t be functioning still.

    What are your qualifications to publish such a list? What are your political interests?
    You seem so convinced this is some Chinese conspiracy…you are doing a huge disservice to those who have spoken out, and who have no interest in the Chinese/Tibetan axis.

    It has always seemed rather sickening to me that many Tibetan buddhist followers have shown no interest whatsoever in the plight of the Tibetans. It is now rather sickening to me that you are trying your best to paint a picture of Chinese infiltration upon these women who have spoken out, with no affiliation to politics-unlike you.

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  374. “I await your findings”

    Me, too. Does anyone else have the Inform report, and could you email? It’s been 3 days, and no response from their office nor LSE.

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  375. I await your findings with baited breath. Just one word of advice, a diet rich in red herrings is not good for you health ;)

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  376. Vera,

    Yes, I came upon DI from a link provided by a Chinese internet commentator.

    I didn’t say I was going to drop all my project, I said I was going to set aside much of my political work.

    I work for a radio network. I am not important. I gave my work details after an accusation that I was a Rigpa “agent,” since anyone who followed up on that would be able to see I was, in fact, who I say I am.

    I have never written Marie Claire. I have written to Inform, as Mike Garde requested; I have received no response to date.

    I have received an email from the French paper, Marianne, saying that DI and Rick Ross’s hosting of their article was not approved; per their legal department, this is a violation of copyright law (as is the unapproved translation).

    Yes, I am compiling a list of “safe” Buddhist teachers. No, I don’t think you’re stupid.

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  377. Mariei-you is Maaaadd-your only evidence that tantra is not Buddhist (Er Buddhist tantras-never heard of them?) is a blog-run by?????
    Seek help

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  378. Oh Shiela, are you making this up as you go along? First, you announce you only came upon this scandal through your links with China and wumao’s (what the hell are they?), and then that you were going to drop all your projects to concentrate on this one, despite not knowing who Sogyal Rimposh is and living in Madison and what with being a public figure and all just like Ms Finnegun, you would like everyone to know how important you are and how you know all these Chinese peple are plotting old Rimposh to bring him into disrespute and now you announce that not only have you time to write to Marie Claire about copyright infringements, and then to Inform to see if they are also lying chinese spies and of course DI are also very sneaky with what they are say, but now you are going to write a list of safe Buddhist teachers…give us a break. Do you think we is stoopid?

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  379. I am not compiling a list of Rigpa teachers. I am compiling a list of Buddhist teachers.

    No one here will answer about removed, for example, and now those who formerly accused removed are changing their stories.

    When I have to keep changing “unsafe” to “unkown” or “safe,” based on the statements of the same people, I’m really coming to the conclusion that most of this is a farce.

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  380. I’m not compiling a court case, nor a book; I’m compiling a list of teachers that are “safe,” “unknown,” and “unsafe.” – and what would you know? try having a little humility. you’ve never even been to Rigpa.

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  381. Jb,
    stop it, we know more than you know. When you dislike a qoute, it is to claiming out of context. The quote by LR Hubbard “Attack never defend” is suiting you too.

    Tibetan Tantrism was never taught by Buddha, only the tibetan Tantrics submit that. In no buddhism school exists the agreement tantras were given by Buddha.

    For more read:
    http://tantrismuskritik.blogspot.com/

    “The result (as always and as is clearly apparent if one reads between the lines of your post) is madness.” Finally! a Buddhist is calling me mad, I have been so long waiting for this.
    More of this, more, I love it!

    Don`t you know, how debunking your thoughts are?

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  382. DI, if I’m familiar enough with this case to be able to cite the name of your Inform seminar in 6 minutes, that hardly detracts from my position.

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  383. Generally violence against women using abusive sexuality under the guise of safe Buddhism

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  384. Take time to relflect and please get help with typing addiction. Take ten deep breaths!

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  385. 6 mins to reply which means you did not read the evidence. You are a puppet

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  386. DI, the name of the Inform seminar was “New Religious Movements and Violence.”

    One of the recurring themes here seems to me that lack of interest in doing the admittedly painstaking work it takes to make these cases strong and convincing. Vagueries won’t cut it; testimonies must be sworn, notarized, entered into evidence–anything at all to make it a decent effort.

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  387. Definitely sexual we never addressed the issue of violence, but the two issues are not unrelated for women. Madison where I believe Sheila is based has a very strong emphasis on women’s studies as far as I know!

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  388. Sankapopa the tantras are the wrod of buddha, kept secret for fear of misintepretation-seems he was right!

    Your response is exactly what I meant by what were “religiously, historically and socially acceptable practices in the past clash directly with present, fashionable social mores” Your perspecitve is entirely conditioned by your contemporary perspective, right down to your reference to feudalism.

    In fact, such ‘tantric behaviour’ has existed since time immemorial in the different religious traditions, in Ancient Greece, Japan, India and China, as well as Tibet. it is only in the last few decades that negative perceptions of such behaviour have become shared societal values. I am not arguing for or against them-only pointing out the narrowness of your perspective.

    Again, where both participants are qualfied and consenting, I see no reason why their chosen path of action should be condemned The problem is where the relationship is imbalanced and abusive, which brings us backround to Sogyal and sex. You see, tantra in ther proper context is not the problem; it is the abuse of tantric ideas for personal sexual gratification that is the problem. And that is why Sogyal features here.
    Not so crazies who have played with tantra before they were ready can vent their anger against it in a seemingly justifiable way by arguing in favour of what happens to be socially correct this week (It was paedophiles a few years ago, nowadays it seems to be Tibetan tantric pracfitoners. Who’s next? You?

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  389. As I’ve said before, follow some of my suggestions, and make your cases stronger.

    If you choose to ignore advice on how to shore things up, that’s your choice.

    I’m not compiling a court case, nor a book; I’m compiling a list of teachers that are “safe,” “unknown,” and “unsafe.”

    You here are on some other tack, and that’s okay, but it seems you’re not actually interested in helping people figure out who’s safe.

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  390. withywindle, I’ve said before my name is Sheila Shigley. I’m not sure how using “Sheila” or “Shigley” is supposed to be deceptive.

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  391. DI, it depends on who is to accept it. If one wants a judge to accept it into evidence, the testimony must actually be sworn, not just notarized.

    My point being, it seems as if people are unwilling to do what it takes to get the job done.

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  392. I witnessed the attempted assassination of Hendrik Verwoerd the PM of South africa in April 1960.
    In order for my testimony to be accepted I need to go into a lawyer and have my statement notarisded.
    What planet are you on!
    To quote LR Hubbard, Attack never defend. You are good at it. You make minor concessions then a few comments take them back.
    In summary I was present at a public meeting where sexual, mental and spiritual abuse by Sogyal Rimpoche was evidenced.
    This has nothing to do with court cases. I do not intend going any further with you Sheila until you get it!
    “That’s why these cases will never see another courtroom.”
    This not about going to court, but as a professional in my field with all the reports I have received being of the view that
    they are not false. The issue of taking court cases has nothing to do with this site. We will assist in any such case, but it is not our function.
    In regard to the events at Inform there is no need for a sworn statement they are on the public record.
    http://dialogueireland.org/dicontent/resources/newsletter/news98.html
    https://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2009/07/17/archive-material-from-95-and-97-on-sogyal-rinpoche/
    https://dialogueireland.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/archive-97.pdf
    I have nothing further to add than this.

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  393. http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.com/2011/09/tibetan-buddhists-believe-you-need-to.html

    The above link are quotes from lamas who say you need sex to become enlightened. I guess they are lying, well, actually they are, because you don’t need sex, but the tantras all say you do and they want to have sex.

    There is no way Sheila that your other name can come up accidentally. You thought we wouldn’t notice. just goes to show how correct it is about Tibetan Buddhists tossing aside the precepts, which is why they can have sex, drink alcohol, lie, steal, etc. This, too, is in the Tantras.

    It is not us who are obsessed with sex, it is the lamas and the gurus. We are warning others of this because we do not wish to see others harmed!

    like i said, if no one in your sangha brought up tantric sex, then for some reason they are not interested in you for sex.

    hippies flocked to tibetan buddhism just for the sex. they were not naive as to believe it didn’t exist. they made life easy for the lamas.

    I have seen this smoke-screening before on the Tibetan Buddhist forums. It is the only way they no to fight back.

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  394. They were only “socially acceptable practices” because Tibet was a feudal state with lamas being a law unto themselves. Also I don’t see any sutras/suttas attributed to the Buddha that deemed sexual tantras morally or “socially acceptable practices”

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  395. Vera, it is not a distraction to ask why Victoria Barlow’s supporters selectively disbelieve her about removed.

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  396. Marte, you quote selectively and out of context. Nowhere do you make reference to the required level of realization of participants. Moreover, you self servingly quote from sections where what were religiously, historically and socially acceptable practices in the past clash directly with present, fashionable social mores.
    As for: “And I am in Bardo, I was forced into Tummo” all existence is classifiable into bardos and one cannot be ‘forced into’ tummo, it is thoroughly dependant on ones own meditative practice. Like other posters here, as your reading choice demonstrates, you have dabbled with things you were not qualaified or prepared for. The result (as always and as is clearly apparent if one reads between the lines of your post) is madness. More bella Bs, more Giulias! The common characteristic-inadequate relgious knowledge combined with too much dabbling in esotericism before completing the preliminaries.
    Finally, despite the Tzong Ka Pa reference, he himself did not take consort and he expressly forbade the practice amongst Gelug ordained sangha. Your quote is therefore irrelevant to my Bella a nd Giulia

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  397. We are talking about money, so:

    In this Wednesday, Nov. 30, 2011 photo, Tibetan Buddhism’s third most important leader Ugyen Thinley Dorje, the 17th Karmapa, speaks with Buddhist leaders at an all faith prayer meeting at the Gandhi Memorial in New Delhi, India in New Delhi, India. Indian police have charged Tibetan Buddhism’s third most important leader and three of his followers in a probe into $1.35 million in cash discovered early this year at his headquarters in northern India, a police officer said Thursday, Dec. 8, 2011.

    Read more:

    http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.com/2011/12/india-police-charge-tibet-holy-man-in.html

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  398. Vera, I agree with you! I never read such a always and always repeating themselves before in my life. Must have something to do with the mantra-practise they do.

    JB, honeybaby, here you are with Tsonkhapa, my absolut favourite tantric-master: We should listen to him:

    Tsongkhapa,said in the Extended Treatise on the Progression of the Esoteric Path, Vol. 13: “Someone who ask the teacher for empowerment should make offerings first. A curtain is used as a screen. The disciple understands very well that the teacher is vajrasattva. Wisdom mothers with complete samaya, whose genitals are healthy and who are virgins over the age of 12 etc., are offered to the teacher”

    “One should choose females who are most wise, virtuous, with slender eyes, having a wondrous dignified face, and aged from 12 to 16, or 20 if difficult to obtain. Females over 20 are used in other seals (mudra) because it will make all the stages of practice impossible to attain. One’s sisters, daughters, or wife are offered to the teacher.” (Tsongkhapa, Extended Treatise on the Progression of the Esoteric Path)
    So the female-offering includes the next related ones are given to the master to fuck.

    I do not go deeper with my analyse, it is not the place here. Some quotes like the ones above may clarify what is to say about.

    What I said:

    They made me their consort. They made me equal to them. Now I know all their secrets from inside. And I will speak out!

    And I am in Bardo, I was forced into Tummo. Thank God, if you not to have to go through!

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  399. Well said vera-I have never seen so much devious and perverse smokescreening as that which I see here. If people cant stay on topic, dont post IMO
    FYI No Gelug lama following the tantric path would employ a consort as Tzong Ka Pa strictly forbade it-he would wait until the bardo-Most of the stuff written here about tantra is by people who know absolutely nothing about it-I have been a Tibetan Buddhist for more than three decades and have yet to receive teachings on consorts etc-When I do, I certainly wont be publishing my interpretation of my experiences here for all and sundry to read

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  400. As they say rust never sleeps. Listen guys (Bella and Sheila) you’ve spent the best part of god knows how long, shouting at all who drop by, give us the evidence, give us the dossier, give us, give us!. Well, you were given the blog with the info of abuse in it, you got the stories in the form of a blog someone left you, but since then all you can shout about is everything but the content of that blog/document of abuse from people who have been caught up in it. If you want to contact people like Victoria Barlow and Mary Finnegan, to ask them questions do so, just stop with this endless distractions and trying to hide the evidence.

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  401. DI,
    do you consider it ‘not necessary’ to say weather the abuse in question (Irish woman) was mental or sexual?

    I think there’s a valid difference.

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  402. “That’s why these cases will never see another courtroom.”

    By Mr. Garde going on record to say he heard someones testimony, is not going to get a case into court. In needs to come solely from the individual or group of individuals to proceed to legal action.

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  403. Mr Garde, you’ve just said you personally heard testimony, but that you’re not willing to go on record.

    That’s why these cases will never see another courtroom.

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  404. and that’s a load of bollocks.
    Sheila an unfortunate slip!

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  405. I do not see that as necessary. I was at a public meeting of Inform in the LSE. I obviously can’t reveal the name of the woman who contacted me in confidence.
    so you like doubting Thomas will not believe until YOU put your finger into his side.
    Stop diverting get on with your research and ask the the persons you wish to answer questions directly. Stop asking us we have no answers to those particular questions
    Likely from here on in I will not be commenting, but because of such diversion will just write a post and then you will have a new thread to crawl over.
    will take advice though from my Buddhist consultant. I am a pastry chef not a veg commis!

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  406. “all about tantric sex,” and that’s a load of bollocks.

    Yeah, perhaps your right Shiela, it seems more about lamas just getting their rocks off nowadays

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  407. “lamas say that you have to have sex in order to become enlightened.”

    Absolutely untrue. That method of achieving an altered state of consciousness is possible, but not the only way, and absolutely not required.

    It’s funny you guys go on and on about sex…I’m starting to get the feeling it’s you who are obsessed with tantric sex, since the only place I hear about it is from people accusing others of being obsessed with it, when in fact no one in my gompa has ever brought it up in my presence

    Unfortunately, I don’t think your “ignorance” is genuine. I believe at this point you are running a concerted campaign to convince new people that Tibetans are “all about tantric sex,” and that’s a load of bollocks.

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  408. I’m Sheila Shigley, as I’ve said before. I don’t know if it’s my fingers, or the gravatar code, but sometimes it puts “Shigley” instead of “Sheila.”

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  409. “sorry, but as i posted earlier, stephen batchelor studied with the dalai lama’s group, and it is all about sex”

    Emm, no, it’s most definitely not.

    I have been to multiple teachings by HHDL, and my gompa is Gelug, lead by Geshe Lhundup Sopa who sat HHDL’s exams. Geshe Sopa also does not lecture about sex–not even once, in my presence.

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  410. “What Bella is saying unless she can put her finger into the wound herself she will not believe. She does not accept the testimony of victims.”

    DI, you have not commented in this blog as far as I know the nature of the abuse.

    Was it sexual?

    Mental?

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  411. Sheila, why have you changed your username to “Shigley”? Or are you now posting as two different people?

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  412. noname,

    how can you say “nobody her is even remotely qualified to assess the tantras-we all know nothing and should learn to keep our big arrogant intellectual mouths shut until weve realised them.”

    I have realised them, I was forced in to realise all of them and I do not keep my mouth shut, because I am experienced!

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  413. sorry, but as i posted earlier, stephen batchelor studied with the dalai lama’s group, and it is all about sex and you know it. there are not thousands of sexual practices in tibetan buddhism. there are not that many tantras. comparing self-mutilation with the sexual practices do not cut it, apples and oranges. lamas say that you have to have sex in order to become enlightened. there, sex! i think the quotes have been put up here too, but if not, let me know. if you have been in tibetan buddhism for years and have not had sex with your teacher, consider yourself lucky. they do pick and choose.

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  414. No name – commenting on the definition of sutra is not the same as claiming to understand the profundity of all the sutras; nor is commenting on the definition of tantra a claim to be a tantric adept.

    Marte-Micaela – the tantric practice you mentioned is only one of thousands. Describing tantra as “sex” is like defining Christianity as “self-mutilation.” Yes, some Christians practice self-mutilation (Philippines), but that isn’t a description of Christianity.

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  415. Marte-Micaela, I’m not selling anything – just commenting on definitions.

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  416. No name – that statement is basically just modern physics (i.e. when you get down to the smallest measurable objects and energies, there’s no real difference between us and anything else in the known universe).

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  417. Shigley,
    what do you want to sell us?

    Here a quote of Lama Yeshe:

    “When the completion stage practices have been mastered and we have gained control over our subtle energy winds and so forth, there will come a time when the dakas and dakinis will come. What are the dakas and dakinis? Simple speaking, the are males and females who possess advanced experiences of tantric transformation and control and are therefore able to increase the blissful wisdom of a highly qualified practitioner. There is a certain point in the mastery of the completion stage when physically embracing such a consort is necessary for bringing all the pervading energy winds into the central channel, a prerequisite for opening the heart center completely and experiencing the profoundest level of clear light.” Introduction to Tantra by Lama Yeshe ”

    And the Dalai Lama in Harvard:

    “When we experience subtler level of minds, this level of consciousness can then be transformed into wisdom that understand is emptiness, selflessness.In order to do this, first the practitioner has to stop the grosser levels of consciousness,and to do this, it is necessary to bring about the change of the movement of the white and red basic constituents. This is where sex becomes involved. The strongest change in the level of consciousness that can be utilized by a practitioner occurs during sex. Because of this fact, sex is used as a technique of tantric path.”

    http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.com/2011/06/what-is-in-kalachakra-tantra.html

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  418. Yes=one of my first teachers. However “each one of us is a union of all universal energy” is I am afraid California hippy talk-Does it translate back into a recogniisable Buddhist scriptural term? Fraid not. Therefore its not the tantric apporach=nobody her is even remotely qualified to assess the tantras-we all know nothing and should learn to keep our big arrogant intellectual mouths shut until weve realised them

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  419. Another (far more beautiful!) explanation is given by Lama Yeshe:

    “…each one of us is a union of all universal energy. Everything that we need in order to be complete is within us right at this very moment. It is simply a matter of being able to recognize it. This is the tantric approach.”

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  420. I would have to totally disagree with that assessment of tantra. Tantra is simply using life experiences on the path, rather than trying to use a path to hide from life experiences.

    Here’s a funny example of tantra: in the 1970s, an experiment was done with basketball players. Half the group practiced freethrows, while the other half imagined themselves nailing perfect freethrows. The “imagining” group improved most.

    Although the goal wasn’t spiritual, the efficacy of imagining oneself to be “better” than one thinks one is, was demonstrated. Far from being a prideful, unrealistic exercise in self-aggrandizement, imagining oneself to be a “better” version of oneself actually revealed that one was capable of being “better” all along, simply by practicing mentally.

    So you can apply that to spiritual development–imagining oneself to be kind, or patient, for example, really does increase ones likelihood of acting kind or patient in a future moment.

    That’s just one simple (but I feel extremely beneficial) aspect of tantra.

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  421. Marte, the kula tradition is straight from Hindu tantra. The Kulas are a sect that has preserved all the sexual tantra traditions. You can read more about it in a paper by professor Sarah Caldwell:
    leavingsiddhayoga.net/caldwell.sarah.pdf

    She discusses how all the Hindu movements (Vedanta, Hare Krishna, Yogananda’s Self-Realization Fellowship, etc.) have tantra at their core. In order to make these movements socially acceptable in the West, they put on a veneer of religious philosophy, but underneath is tantra. Tibetan Buddhism follows the same pattern. It entices followers with talk of compassion, loving-kindness, and complex philosophical concepts, but in the end, it all leads to tantra. They gain your confidence with talk of the Bodhisattva path, then suddenly, there is a rude awakening. Or a blissful awakening, for male followers, haha.

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  422. Mr Garde – thank you, I understand now.

    Would you consider a sworn deposition, so that your testimony may be entered into the body of evidence? Or at the least, writing your experience up and getting it notarized? The former would be more powerful, but a notarized, written statement is definitely a start.

    One immediate problem in these cases, that I see to date, is the small number of people willing to take “next steps,” and as a result, the number of witnesses is very low. If you were willing to add your voice to the evidence list, that could be significant, especially given that the original complainant has not given a name.

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  423. What I simply don’t understand is why the opinion against some of the teachers has changed back to positive.

    removed were formerly excoriated by some accusers, yet now are spoken of in good terms by those same exact people

    This is incredibly confusing to those of us who do not have experience with these teachers.

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  424. Marte, that is so true about charity. Buddhists do not seem to believe in it as far as I can tell. Yet Thich Nhat Hanh sends money to Vietnam, but I have heard of other Buddhist groups that put him down for it, as if helping others were not the point of Buddhism unless you are teaching them to meditate, and then if you happen to go crazy while meditating they say that you “have bad karma,” and so there you are. They can’t help you at all.

    Often Christians share in order to get converts, but at least they are sharing. Better to share with ulterior motives than to not help the poor at all.

    I believe that spirituality is to be found within, otherwise you will be greatly disappointed in how religious persons treat others.

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  425. Marte, I was in Hinduism before Buddhism, and I saw how people are treated when they speak out. The various organizations all say this: The woman wants fame or money. They are liars. I remember telling a friend about Muktananda, and how I knew a woman who took her children out of his ashram due to child abuse, but that she doesn’t want her name to be known, and this woman immediately called her a liar and said that she wanted fame. I said, “She doesn’t want others to know who she is, how can she want fame?” Organization brainwash people to believe that women are lying for these reasons, men too if they are involved. Once someone is brainwashed it is very hard to get them to see the truth.

    I, too, have no interest in Buddhism. I do hold onto some of the teachings in Hinduism, but I want nothing more to do with gurus or lamas or organizations. I have been burned too many times.

    If you have been abused in any of these religions and speak out, you will be abused again. Look at June Campbell who spoke out about Kalu. She finally kind of went into hiding after her book was published. I would love to talk with her, but I imagine she has had enough abuse from others to not desire to talk with anyone, and yet she was brave to speak out. Very brave!!! As are you.

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  426. One question – you list your testimony separately from Inform – will that not be in the packet Inform sends, then, or is it included? If not, where do I find it?
    I heard with my own ears and saw the people testifying. What I am saying this was at an NRM Conference, and Inform hosted these testimonies.
    I know what I heard. It was a public meeting which corroborates the evidence given here. It will not be part of any packet. This what alerted me to the issue.
    I remember the person saying that the Lama abused Irish women in one location and other nationalities in another. This was his personal assistant, not justr some adept. I believe this is what made me alert to make sure that the Irish branch in West Cork came under scrutiny. When our President showing great lack of discernment opened the place there a woman who was abused asked me to contact the President. She was getting counselling to deal with her experience.
    What Bella is saying unless she can put her finger into the wound herself she will not believe. She does not accept the testimony of victims.

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  427. “Clearly many organisations are making healthy profits from running Buddhist events, although it is a recognised principle that the teachings are not for sale. Whether this state of affairs is corrupt – or simply a 21st century fact of life is open to debate.”

    Should´t we debate this topic? It is interesting enough, but the only notice I made was, the name of the autor which opened a discussion about sexuall assaults by Sogyal.

    My observations are: there is a great stream of cash into the tantric-tibetan organisations which is spended only for the own structure, nothing is spend for charitable contribution at all.

    That is the main difference to the christian churches, they share. This behavier of attracting and holding money for ones own has a long history in Tantrism of Tibet: Who was poor, sick or handicapt deserved this according to his karma and it was not necessery to help him or her. The same view we find today.

    Because tibetan Tantrism is deep involved in magic rituals, you will find some special ones for getting money from sponsors:

    Here a quote of a Kurukulla-ritual, where the yogi attracts in the same breath sex and money, which is very interesting from a psychoanalytical view:

    “Like double Hook to hold,
    Like rattan to tangle.
    May I be with you,
    And loved by best girls!”

    “If I and my followers and my sponsors have done anything which may make the God or Goddesses, Buddhas, or Herukas unhappy, may this Homa performance be a confession. If my followers and sponsors have broken some silas or vinaya, have been disturbed by false views or have been left by the protectors, may this Homa be redemption and get permission to be forgiven. May the merit of Homa he successful in the attainment of Buddhahood.”

    And the sponsors? Their charakters are very different, some ones willigness to donate money comes out of real generosity, but that is quite rare. The most followers donate money due to a weak personality and they are unknowingly asking for approval.
    Those are the milked ones by the lamas, they attract each other.

    This is not a healthy relationship, anyway in which time we live.

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  428. Bellab, I am not disappointed, I am awaken.

    I never would look for annother lama, because I quited the whole, should I say, shit.

    Maybe your soul is so totally different inspired than mine, so keep going on. I am not a junkie, to no one, to no religion, to no experience.

    I am me, myself, I. And I love my Ego!

    I wish you luck.

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  429. Marte-Micaela Riepe, I have read about Ole Nydahl. In Wikipedia it says that he has commented his sexual activities, so I guess claims are at least a bit true.

    I’m sorry for you and I do understand your disappointment. I hope you can still find peace with some lama in the future.

    I have never thought it even possible to have sexual relationship with SR. We ordinary students are so far from him. Somebody was claiming that she worked in Rigpa and saw newbies been ‘fed to SR’. That is just evil talk and BS. Nobody gets close to SR if they are not working in Rigpa. Even then there are so many people around, busy teams working together that it’s very unlikely for anybody to have private moments with him.

    I have seen and heard him taking really good care of his students.

    Unlike you Michaela I haven’t been in Rigpa for just 2 years. I have been there for 10 years and I have heard about the accusations in the beginning of my second year. When you stumble upon any new religion, it lasts for about 5 years that you may have a bit blindness. Because of the rumors my blindfolds were dropped at an early stage. I also quite soon spoke with a close worker in Rigpa. I got advice to look, check the lama for some time. I have done it.

    My dreams. Tibetans pay attention to dreams. Of course they are a reflection of my own psyche, but in Buddhism the teacher is there to quicken the process. I wouldn’t consider ordinary chaotic dreams as any special, but in the dreams SR has taken the place of my inner teacher. He has an effect in me. I have met quite a few other lamas: in Rigpa and outside Rigpa. I even know some lamas personally, but they are more like friends to me.

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  430. Any Lama having retreats in Poland, Romania, Portugal or Russia will be cheap.

    Anybody having them in France, Germany or UK, will be expensive. It’s quite simple.

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  431. Namkhai Norbu is considered safe, correct? I know he’s listed here as being expensive, but my current research is into whether teachers are safe – I sort of feel the expense side may need to be a separate project, or addendum.

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  432. I am very new to removed issues in general. I have never attended removed teachings. I don’t know what to think, because the same people are saying very different things about him. All I want to know, as someone researching multiple Tibetan teachers of all four main sects, is whether he is considered a good and safe teacher, or not.

    No one has written back from Inform, but as soon as they send me the materials, you can be guaranteed I will comment! I only wish these materials were hosted somewhere so they could be accessed right away; if someone else has a copy, and would send it to me now, that would speed things up.

    One question – you list your testimony separately from Inform – will that not be in the packet Inform sends, then, or is it included? If not, where do I find it?

    I’m drafting the Adventist briefing, which will be not so much “Why to Stay Away” but rather “What to Know if you Join” (for example, join as a family, so that exclusivity doctrines are less likely to lead to divorce). I’ll send as soon as it’s finished – I realize you may or may not host it here.

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  433. Before I was mentally, sexually and ritually abused by Nydahl and Trinley Thaje Dorje I was like bellab a deep devotee of both of them.

    I had wunderful times in the sangha over two years, most of my friends I had there, the ceremonies and enaugurations through Karmapa were wunderful, I got very wise lectures from Nydahl, I had phantastic experiencies of deep meditations, I was going through lucid dreams, where the high lamas walked in and I felt blessed. I had trance- experiences when time flows away and I was in a high bliss for hours.

    I am not sure I would have believed stories about misabusing during that time, so I can understand bellab`s position.

    Now I broke with all, even with Buddha who is not the person I like to be teached by anymore, independent of the misabuse I went through. It is my decision.

    So I did not come out with my story in buddhist circles , where the discussion would have the same level as it has here. All victims of violence through tantric-tibetan teachers are well advised to do the same.

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  434. At some point he said he wanted sex. I refused and was (innocently?) shocked, because I was not on a retreat for that.
    Thanks for the confirmation

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  435. Sheila we are going to sanction you for continued black commentary. You are answered and then repeat the question even though it is answered.
    Please deal with the issues we have agreed on.
    1.Inform
    2. My testimony of 1997
    3.What you are on about in regard to Adventism
    4. If it is about Adventism in the USA please not here. This is a site about Ireland.
    You are Irish I believe, so if you had an experience of Adventism here write it down and stop claiming you are being silenced.
    People disagreeing with you does not mean being silenced.
    5. HH Sakya Trizin we have addressed. You tried to suggest we were in reality Mary, then apologised, now you continue with this nonsense.
    Do not keep asking us about it. Ask her or write an article about this contradiction and we will post it.
    However, if you mention it again we delete your comments on that as it has no bearing on the abuse issue on this site.
    If there is something you do not understand about 1-5 let us know.
    Could you follow the the idea of actually reflecting before you shoot from the hip here.

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  436. They are indeed wise words No name.

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  437. In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king
    ‘I never experienced it with any other teacher/-then you need to get out more-you obviously have very little experience outside the rigpa framework
    SR may be a good teacher for you but the sexuala buse he has perpetrated is a sepasrate issue-you are confusing the two and trying to convince everyone else that your view is the only correct view
    If you had any faith you would be content with that but becuase of your weakness you have to force your view on others
    Your dream xperences are YOUR dream experiences-if they teach you something, great But the fact that you attribute them to S is just an indcation of your own lack of faith in your own wisdom-soy you put it ouside yourself
    So many weaknesses and the only person that can truly help you out of them is you,S is just a sign pointing the way not a god

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  438. Sankappa, then you have no connection to him. Over the years especially his teachings go through me like a hot knife on butter. I never experienced it with any other teacher. I see dreams about him which seems like teaching dreams. One man told me that he had been in FWBO for 15 years. Then he just ended up going to SR’s teachings. The next night he saw a dream: a lama pointing him in his forehead with a finger and asking: “Haven’t you suffered enough?”

    Just go find your own teacher. Just because you don’t get him doesn’t mean his unable to teach others.

    I think I have had – especially in the early years – so much emotional turmoil. If he was some kind of peaceful lama, I don’t think I could have been able to project so much on him, in good and bad. Over the years the turmoil has calmed down. I never felt he was weak or wouldn’t be able to withstand all that is coming at him. I still think he and Orgyen Tobgyal are the strongest persons I’ve ever seen.

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  439. I saw very few positive qualities on a 10-day retreat of his

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  440. Sankappa, you sound as ignorat as Mary in denying his positive qualities. A Demon, is he?

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  441. So what?

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  442. I have seen SR treating a person who was sexually abused in her youth with extreme care and love. He has many times acted in a way to comfort her and give her assurance, security. He has compassion.

    Here in DI one can read at least 2 other testimonies like that in early threads.

    I also told earlier myself, that on one retreat there was a complete newbie and I gave him advice. We got to know each other. We had fun and I liked him too. My focus on any retreat is not on relationship stuff. That time was a bit different. At some point he said he wanted sex. I refused and was (innocently?) shocked, because I was not on a retreat for that. Afterwards he said he has played games in the past in order to get women. I was feeling quite bad about him. Nobody told SR or anybody about this incident. The next day SR – in the middle of his teachings – suddenly stopped and said: “And don’t come playing games here on the retreat! This is not for that!” So, even if that rant was not meant for him, I felt protected by him. The guy came to apologize afterwards. Now we are on friendly terms. Lesson learned.

    I have heard him teaching on abusive relationships many times in different lengths. He is pretty intelligent and I believe truly he knows what is abusive and what not. And he is NOT joking when he talks about these issues. He is serious.

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  443. DI – Sogyal thread, November 15, 2011 at 11:58 am.

    sankappa 哈哈 “wumao”

    Is there something significant I’m meant to understand by the above comment, Shiela? Are you implying that the comment by DI on that date is a wumao? Is that it?

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  444. Can someone please tell me why Victoria Barlow’s accusations against removed are being ignored, and why, when she appeared personally to restate those accusations, the thread was shut down and a new Finnigan article endorsing removed was introduced?

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  445. DI – Sogyal thread, November 15, 2011 at 11:58 am.

    sankappa 哈哈 “wumao”

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  446. “Anon, Chinese “spies” as you put it, daily publish the names and details of myself, my sister, my sister’s children, and my mother, online. They do it as a kind of threat.”

    I’m afraid you have that type of behavior to blame for people’s suspicions.”

    Again the red herring Sheila, trying to conflate your experience of Chinese harassment with those claiming abuse at the hands of Sogyal – ie it must all be a PRC/wumao conspiracy to discredit Sogyal and TB.

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  447. Well, when I told him some of my experience, his response was “Sheila is not a cult escapee.”

    Could you remind me of my telling you “Sheila is not a cult escapee.”?????
    This was not my talking to a woman at the the Inform Conference. She spoke to a major seminar in front of hundreds of witnesses.
    Hence I suggested you contact Inform!!!

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  448. sankappa, Mike Garde gave me the contact details for LSE/INFORM and I am awaiting their documents. I thought they were hosted on their website, which apparently they are not; one must ask for an emailed copy. The woman to contact is Eileen Barker.

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  449. There are people here right now who know, directly from the accuser, what the details are about the allegations against removed. I’m asking about removed because he is endorsed by Mary Finnigan in the current article, and I discovered while researching the Sogyal Rinpoche case, that she used to consider him a sexual predator.

    Dharmadamsel, if you know Victoria, then you know about removed, or at least her feelings on the matter. Can you not give me one hint of perspective on this teacher?

    Is there some code of silence around this teacher? Or this sect?

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  450. Ah, more red herrings Sheila. As I suggested yesterday, if you want an answer to the question re Sakya Trizin ask Mary Finnegan directly. It’s just more speculation and distraction, muddy the waters, which is your modus operandi.

    So how goes the investigation into getting the research results from Inform at LSE? Or are you still avoiding that, after repeated DI requests, because you know you may get some irrefutable evidence of Sogyal’s abuse?

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  451. I ask again: Is removed a wholesome teacher or not?

    Victoria Barlow says he is a serial sex abuser. Mary Finnigan used to say he was a serial sex abuser.

    Now Mary Finnigan endorses removed.

    How are we supposed to not be confused? Is removed safe, or not? Victoria knows him; Mary Finnigan knows him; you know both of them. Can someone not give me a straight answer, from experience with this teacher?

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  452. Oh. It’s not about your truth? AFAIK, Finnigan has been researching complaints against Sogyal for at least 20 years, including testimony of former staff members who have said their conscience wouldn’t allow them to cover for him any more, once they faced what they had been closing their eyes to.

    Rigpa is a huge organization, it’s entirely possible there are offices full of staff who themselves have experienced or witnessed no inappropriate behavior from Sogyal, and who have not been to retreats, and so are unaware of what transpires there or in his hotel rooms. I could believe that. But it doesn’t mean he plays by the rules and doesn’t abuse his authority and the trust disciples and the bereaved place in him as a spiritual guide and bereavement counselor, just because some staffers or followers haven’t seen anything wrong.

    I know Victoria Barlow. She deserves a lot of credit for speaking out all these years, in spite of all the denial, the hostility aimed at her,and death threats. Do you think the Canadian documentary producers would have chosen her (among others) to interview for their expose on Sogyal and violence in Buddhism if she weren’t a credible source? Think about it.

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  453. Dharmadamsel,

    do you know Sogyal Rinpoche? Have you ever met him?

    If you have, what makes you think he might be an abuser?

    If you haven’t, where did you get the idea he might be an abuser?

    From Mary Finnigan’s article?
    From Mary Finnigan’s writings here and in other places?
    From Victoria Barlow’s writings here and other places?

    If you read all of Mary Finnigan’s articles, do you think she is fair and honest? Is she somebody who knows something?

    If somebody contradicts her, no matter how many times, no matter regarding the issue (financial, alcohol, sex), she wouldn’t believe you. She would not consider for a minute, if what you said, could be correct, if it was contradictory to her own writings. She is herself not interested in the truth. It’s all about her writings, her ‘truth’.

    If I was abused, I wouldn’t either write here. Not because of the critics, who may humanly understand something at the end of the day, but because of the issue with IP addresses.

    Sorry, but we are still human beings here with some compassion, even if we don’t believe all BS what is said by a ‘Mary the missionary worker’.

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  454. Marte is right, this forum is no place for victims of abuse to share their stories. Why should someone join the discussion, only to be re-victimized by accusations of lying? I’m mystified as to why women are so hostile toward the idea of sexually predatory lamas, and toward women who want to help victims and put a stop to the suffering. Buddhism isn’t the fairy-tale kingdom we imagine it to be.

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  455. Michaela, I understand truly how it must be for somebody abused. I also know the other side of the story – or let say the next phase of the victim. Still you cannot honestly say you know what was the abuse DI heard all about.

    People talk here also about the ‘mental abuse’ they’ve experienced from SR. I bet he doesn’t mean to abuse anybody, he is just a bit strict – and is quite talented in making people see their arrogance. Like Thomas Kent said in RR: he doesn’t ‘misbehave’ with those he sees suffering. He has never shown anything but kindness with me. A friend of mine is a bit more self-assured, self contained and SR has tested him quite a bit, before he trusted him and gave teachings. This my personal real experience.

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  456. Actually, Marte-Micaela, if Mary Finnigan, Victoria Barlow and others would follow some of the suggestions I and others have made, they would make their cases stronger, not weaker.

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  457. What a spooky discussion you have, you should be able to study themselves from outside.
    Some people here are obsessed and it`s not Giulia.

    bellaB, you really expect a woman who was abused to come to this forum? What a sick idea. The best protection of a misabused woman is to stay away from people who behave worser than a interrogator of the police. Victims of sexually assault have to go through that situation and it is very hard so a lot of them avoid it, still today.

    So I am going to my bank, counting the money I have got from the chinese gouvernement. That`s funny!

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  458. Whatever the woman has told to DI, we don’t know about it yet. Why the woman doesn’t want to tell her experience? If she has suffered, why not share it here anonymously? She did it publicly once.

    1) Maybe she acknowledges her own part in the story?

    2) Maybe the story is not that severe?

    We don’t know if she feels
    1) (mentally) abused because SR told her to look in the mirror
    2) or if she feels abused because she was manipulated into sex she definitely didn’t want

    At least I don’t know a word about the nature of the “abuse”.

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  459. “OK, so now you’re accusing the Director of Dialogue Ireland of not having the sense and experience to know when people are lying to him?”

    Well, when I told him some of my experience, his response was “Sheila is not a cult escapee.”

    So, I personally know of one instance in which is judgement is incorrect.

    No one can “know” when someone is lying to them, regardless of their own credentials.

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  460. If Dudjom Rinpoche told Sogyal to go back to India and “deepen his practice” after observing his predatory behavior with students, I think that needs to be taken seriously.

    OK, so now you’re accusing the Director of Dialogue Ireland of not having the sense and experience to know when people are lying to him? And you’re imagining that random strangers decided to come up to him at a conference and make up lies about Sogyal?

    This isn’t about a “forever victim” mentality, it’s about giving testimony.

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  461. Anon, Chinese “spies” as you put it, daily publish the names and details of myself, my sister, my sister’s children, and my mother, online. They do it as a kind of threat.

    I’m afraid you have that type of behavior to blame for people’s suspicions.

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  462. Beautifully put, BellaB.

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  463. thankyou for your sanity Sankappa – it’s been a while since there was

    anything resembling that on this thread

    deeply offensive that you think we’re all chinese spys – again

    really does suit your agenda doesn’t it Bella

    You think the women Mike Garde met were lying?

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  464. Sankappa, I want to ask you the same:

    “So do you think on balance that at least some of the dozens of allegations are true?”

    Do you think that the people I have met in REAL life, not a message in email or internet blog, are all liars? They have known SR for 20-30 years. One was his masseur and knew his girlfriends. She said she never heard they were treated badly. Another one has had SR staying at her place. Nothing. Somebody who has has traveled with him the 10 years I have been visiting Rigpa: NOTHING. He also uses tourist class, not business class, in order not to waste money!

    “It would be extremely unlikely that there is not some basis of truth to the many accusations.”

    Is it? I or you do not know any of these people. Some might be Chinese sending Mary messages. Some might be mentally unstable. You never know. Then Mary creates a story in her head about evil talk. You join her, happily?

    “Also, by denying the allegations that Mary Finnegan has compiled from people she has been directly in contact with, you are actually saying you do not trust her word or judgment.”

    Yes. I do not trust her judgement at all. When I read that BS blog, I really thought she has lost it completely. To ThomasKent she said “we must live in parallel universes” – and that is how it is: she lives in her bubble, creating negativity. She hasn’t seen SR for 40 years! She has inner-circle knowledge?

    Even if Namkhai Norbu, that she claims to respect, told her on her face: SR is a fully qualified Dzogchen master and that is why I have invited him to teach also my students, she wouldn’t HEAR it. If Minguyr Rinpoche told her: I leave for a 3 year retreat and advice my students to attend the teachings by Sogyal Rinpoche, she would IGNORE it. Those people I believe may be clairvoyant and would know better.

    Her own narcissistic truth is valid here, nothing else. She lives in a bubble – and she aggressively ignores any attempt to brake that bubble. Don’t you see it?

    “The judgment and inside knowledge of somebody whom has been looking at the situation far longer than you.”

    She doesn’t have insider knowledge. Mary hasn’t been there for 40 years! Some people don’t like Sogyal Rinpoche’s style, others do. Those who don’t like, like to share their feelings with a person like Mary. If I had a bad day, I would never go to talk to someone like Mary. People who like her, I wouldn’t trust either, one bit. Liars like liars.

    Mary has a friend, Victoria Barlow, whose life story is a sad one, but that doesn’t mean that every man has to be attacked and blamed, victimized. She claims to have had a relationship with SR when he was under 30 years of age. They were close enough that he was borrowing her telephone and met privately (in disguise?) to talk Buddhism? Is it possible?

    If they had sex, I don’t believe he was the only one to blame for it. In the case of someone who has been previously abused the person creates a victim mentality and tries to defend itself and it’s own bad choices by blaming the others.

    I can see it in myself: I haven’ been sexually abused (except at 2 separate times 2 men have tried to rape me abroad when I was young, but without any success, I was able to push them away: maybe that has caused fear in me?), but I was lied to when I was young. These things happened when I was around 20, but they left a mark in me, for sure. Now that I’m older I might forgive some of the men (not the rapists) – and also look into the mirror: why didn’t I myself notice that, why wasn’t I aware? And what did I do? Was I always nice?

    Taking the Forever Victim Role might prevent one from seeing their own responsibility – and prevent from growing up. In some cases it might be just that too.

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  465. Thanks very much Mr Garde – I’ll write them!

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  466. I am the Director of Dialogue Ireland, Mike Garde who visited an Inform Conference in 1997 which had women express their experiences of mental, sexual and physical violence at the Conference. You will find it referenced on the our site under Rigpa. I heard it so that is why I am very happy these charges are true. I have also had at least 3 women contact me directly corroborating that testimony over the last 4 years. You need to write an email to the Inform at the LSE and ask them to give you their research results.

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  467. LSE search on “Sogyal” brings up only one reference to a July 2011 article by Mary Finnegan. INFORM search on “Sogyal” brings up “Your search yielded no results.” I’m obviously not in the right place?

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  468. “Sorry, your second post snuck in before I posted the above. So do you think on balance that at least some of the dozens of allegations are true?”

    I will answer if you tell me which testimonies you’re referring to. “Some of the dozens of allegations” doesn’t tell me which accusers or accused you’re referencing, and I can’t possibly make a blanket statement. It’s better by far to reference each case individually – that will be sticky enough.

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  469. “You have not got back to us about my testimony from Inform. I heard it. Could you comment what I reported from 1997, then go and find out from Inform what they have to say.”

    I don’t know who you are – can you give me a reference to ask about at Inform? Or is there one document basically? I have been wading through Inform as promised and am having a hard time getting to what you’re asking about, mainly because I don’t have a document title or name to go by.

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  470. Sorry, your second post snuck in before I posted the above. So do you think on balance that at least some of the dozens of allegations are true? It would be extremely unlikely that there is not some basis of truth to the many accusations. Also, by denying the allegations that Mary Finnegan has compiled from people she has been directly in contact with, you are actually saying you do not trust her word or judgment. The judgment and inside knowledge of somebody whom has been looking at the situation far longer than you.

    Regarding what you see as a contradiction of Mary Finnegan regarding Sakya Trizin, she is the only person who can answer that and it serves no real purpose to speculate publicly. Instead of continually rehashing this question on DI, why don’t you as her directly, if it is the truth you claim you want establish here.

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  471. Give me the names of the dozens (or any number of them) and I’ll tell you my current theory on how I’m temporarily categorizing that individuals’ testimony.

    Right now I have Victoria Barlow in “unknown,” for example, because Mary Finnigan who knows her, treats her testimony as reliable in one case, and unreliable in another. I also have her in “unknown” because in Barlow’s separate accusations against Sogyal Rinpoche and removed, she included a phrase which was very close to being the same in both accounts. This got my guard up. But for now, she’s in “unknown.”

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  472. Mary seems to embrace Victoria’s testimony on Sogyal Rinpoche, but not embrace it on removed. I can think of several possibilities, but don’t know the answer. I’ve wondered, for example, whether (ala the Adventist topic ban on RR) there are “deals” with certain religions or sects, where even avid self-declared “cult hunters” agree to lay off. And of course I want to know what those reasons are.
    This comment about your obsession with the Adventist issue is very revealing. Now you have developed a conspiracy theory about a possible cover up.
    Again you postulate: Two of those three subjects have been stifled here on DI and over on RR, and one has not. What the heck am I supposed to think, seeing this? What do you think other readers will think?
    Let us get this straight please write the piece on the Adventists. If you are Irish the only Adventist Church I am aware of in Ranelagh in Dublin. What are your claims but please not here. Write up your problem and if it is of any relevance to cultism then we will publish it here. If not we will tell you. Please stop this innuendo and diversion on the subject of SR.
    You have not got back to us about my testimony from Inform. I heard it. Could you comment what I reported from 1997, then go and find out from Inform what they have to say. You are rampant here no one is stifling you, please stop this coat trailing. Violins and mood music. I am a victim of that terrible blog who are sick of those attempts to transfer from to thread to thread their mischief.I have no idea why Mary holds the views on removed she does, take up the consistency of her argument with her. Are we her agents that you keep repeating your nonsense then apologise and then go back to it. The French magazine are obviously very worried not a peep out of them.

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  473. It’s a simple question Sheila, but you’re still avoiding it. Are these now literally dozens of people lying? Just a simple yes or no will do.

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  474. sankappa, I have no idea who’s lying and who’s been mislead and who is telling the truth.

    I think a feel for whether someone is lying is best gotten in person. Short of that, one can look at the behavior of a second individual, who knows the person in question.

    Mary seems to embrace Victoria’s testimony on Sogyal Rinpoche, but not embrace it on removed. I can think of several possibilities, but don’t know the answer. I’ve wondered, for example, whether (ala the Adventist topic ban on RR) there are “deals” with certain religions or sects, where even avid self-declared “cult hunters” agree to lay off. And of course I want to know what those reasons are.

    Whether you think I’m this or that isn’t really relevant to any other readers, because at this moment they remain with no answers to these questions:

    Is Sogyal Rinpoche safe or not? Is removed safe or not? Is Adventism safe or not?

    Two of those three subjects have been stifled here on DI and over on RR, and one has not. What the heck am I supposed to think, seeing this? What do you think other readers will think?

    No one needs a spin machine, because the problems are glaring all on there own.

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  475. sankappa, my questions is, why does Mary Finnigan believe Victoria Barlow is not a reliable witness in the removed case?

    Do you, sankappa, believe Mary Finnigan’s expose of removed as a sex predator, or do you believe her endorsement of him in this current article as a good teacher?

    Of course my ears are up for a Chinese connection, because that’s the arena where I spend most of my time, and that’s how I came here in the first place. I know many of these chap(pette)s and no doubt several here are my old friends :)

    The question stands, and no one seems willing to ask it: is removed safe to receive teachings from, or not?

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  476. And I’ve got a good nose for bullshit when I smell it, and you Sheila are full of it. You now claim to be here under the guise of being the only one doing the real, serious and objective digging around on abuse in Tibetan Buddhism to get to the truth, while claiming that anybody else that makes claims of abuse against Sogyal are unreliable, lying and/or part of a PRC conspiracy, to discredit Tibetan Buddhism. In fact it’s all about taring everyone with the same conspiracy brush, to leave doubt in the reader’s mind and muddy the waters. This is your real agenda.

    So to the heart of the matter: are the people who have made claims of abuse or the witnessing of abuse at the hands of Sogyal Rinpoche, whether in documents compiled by Mary Finnegan, or by their own admission on sites like DI and Rick Ross, lying? Do you Sheila believe they are lying?

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  477. “i may have that long post since i have been saving them all’

    Lol, good policy. Wish I had “Tibet Was Is” from the early days – that would be a treat.

    Dharmadamsel, double agent for what? For the Chinese? Why would that matter – the Party wants the same thing DI and Mary do.

    Ironically–and I’m proud to say this–some of the best refutation of the Sogyal Rinpoche garbage has come from Chinese netizens! They’re used to sorting wheat from chaff and have a keen eye for propaganda of any variety.

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  478. i may have that long post since i have been saving them all along in case they were deleted.

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  479. It is indeed a pity that long post of mine has disappeared — I need it for my book. Some of the people on this forum can only shout “Stop spamming” in capital letters while I am writing some new information on this forum, which is not spamming, but new writing I am doing in the moment. Could somebody please send me a copy — I need this for my book “Pieces of advice to Tibetan lamas” — it contains some stuff I did not even remember until today and some stuff so clearly written I had not even thought of before. I “apologize” to those that can only read 3 lines of scolding me in the time I write a full new chapter of my book — am just a quick thinker & writer — thank you.

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  480. Wow, you sure know a lot about this. How do we know you’re not a double agent?

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  481. “Sounds like you’re the one who’s been frequenting Chinese websites, Sheila.”

    As I’ve said before, that is in fact the other research I am involved in, yes.

    Btw, I am pointing out abuses in the Tibetan system (as reported by Mary Finnigan some time ago, accusing removed of rampant sexual abuse) and no one is calling me Chinese.

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  482. Dharmadamsel, if I know anything about the passionate Mary Finnigan, it is that she would never in a million years endorse a teacher who has the problem you claim.

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  483. “How would the Chinese know what’s going on in Tibetan communities in India?”

    For starters, the significant number of Chinese (and Nepali posing as Tibetans) living there specifically to report on the Tibetan community.

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  484. I don’t know anything about this endorsement of S.T. you say is in Finnigan’s writing, but to answer your question, one can study with S.T. in a group setting, or attend his public lectures. It’s when he gets a woman alone that problems begin. But that’s true of many lamas/teachers. The important thing is that students be aware of the risks involved in the guru-disciple relationship.

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  485. How would the Chinese know what’s going on in Tibetan communities in India? The ups and downs of the Shugden controversy have been reported in Western media and Indian newspapers. Sounds like you’re the one who’s been frequenting Chinese websites, Sheila.

    This business of accusing anyone who would point out abuses in the system and the need for reform as a stooge for the Chinese is ironically Stalinesque. “If you’re not with us, you’re against us.” Dare to point out problems in the system, and off to the gulag you go, as an enemy of the people. The result of that was a society that cannibalized itself. This is not at all in the best interests of Tibetan Buddhism.

    So, is Yangsi Kalu Rinpoche a puppet of the Chinese, then?

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  486. Am I to understand that no one here–of the many who were offering information on Sogyal Rinpoche and the dangers associated with his teachings–is prepared to offer any advice whatsoever on removed?

    removed is outright endorsed in the article under discussion. Is that the final word, then? removed is no longer a sexual predator, but in fact a great teacher, and we who have never attended his teachings are safe in doing so?

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  487. withywindle, one is associated with the Chinese if one uses entire phrases lifted from Chinese websites.

    And you know very well where Mary’s thread is, but for those still figuring it out, Mary is Blue Dakini (among other names) on RR.

    tmd wumao

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  488. Rather interesting that if one brings up wrongs done in Tibetan Buddhism, one is then called a Chinese. I find this in every religion, either way it boils down to anyone who speaks out against abuse is Satan, whether you call them Chinese or the anti-Christ or whatever. It serves a great purpose: It keeps others from believing them even though they are telling the truth.

    Where is this RR thread that Mary has gone to?

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  489. Don’t hold your breath. We will allow our commenter Gerry the last word. If she continues this crazy second by second spamming we will delete with a vengeance. This thread is about The Buddhist organisations that are thriving during the debt crisis by Mary Finnigan in The Guardian. Giulia is fixated on murders we are not. We are not therapists but if you continue leaving these droppings on our site we will have to ask you leave. We are getting sick of people taking over this thread! If you have a problem on Rick Ross or do not like the Guardian newspaper give us a break,we are only concerned about cultism, not the history of Tibetan Buddhism and whether you were poisoned by someone!

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  490. Gerry, I have gone to Rick Ross. They shut down my (very polite) Adventist thread, leading me to believe there wasn’t much point in participating there. It’s a sham.

    Honestly, their forum software is so clunky that I find the experience a frustration, on top of what are already frustrations. It’s a breath of fresh air to be able to converse on DI smoothly and without outright censorship.

    I’m not with Rigpa. However, one might ask why a member of the public coming into this discussion can instantly see so many problems with it, that their observations are instantly declared to be a well-planned and well-funded product of a company’s “spin machine.” Not only are there no Rigpa orgs here in Madison, I haven’t yet heard of any Nyingma teachers here, period, though if I did, I would definitely go to some teachings.

    I did ask Victoria Barlow questions, repeatedly. She didn’t respond other than to paste huge chunks of text from other sites, and when I asked about the removed case, which exposes an unexplained divergence of Victoria Barlow’s and Mary Finnigan’s (the author’s) apparent beliefs, the thread was shut down, and Victoria hasn’t reappeared. Now I’m told Mary Finnegan has also left.

    DI, I would welcome a discussion on Adventism, and will submit an article – thank you. It would be an interesting conversation.

    I ask again: given that in the article we are currently discussing, “Buddhist Organisations that Thrive,” removed is openly endorsed by the author, whereas formerly she had accused him of rampant sexual abuse, what are the reasons for this about-face? Why is removed now worthy of both financial and spiritual endorsement? What are the implications of this endorsement on the prior sexual abuse charges against removed? And what does all this mean, then, for the other accusations being made against other teachers, given that the primary witness in many of these cases is the same woman whose testimony has been apparently thrown out in the removed case?

    Are we safe going to removed teachings, or not?

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  491. to dialogue ireland:

    where is the comment of Giulia I referred to? Why is it vanished? It was so good! It appeared after Anonymous and it was no spamming, just a brilliant analyse.

    I expect an answer,
    Micaela

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  492. I daresay you can’t afford the time to moderate this site, which is a damnable shame, as most of the posts are sheer tosh. I also think it would help if people referring to other posts on other websites, went to those websites and refered to them their. I also don’t understand why Sheila doesn’t go to Rick Ross and talk to Mary Finnigan there.

    Same thing regarding Victoria Barlow, when she made an appearance here, no one asked her the questions now posed, instead it degenerated into a ludicrous discussion on American v European religious intolerance.

    If Sheila, Bellab and Guilia are the best the Rigpa lot have got, God help Sogyal. It really reduces me to laughter reading this rubbish.

    Keep it up, am just going to grab another bag of popcorn.

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  493. We are happy to address Adventist issues but not on this thread. Please submit a document and a group problem of cultism. I am only aware of one Adventist group in the Republic of Ireland. What are you referring to?

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  494. We had no intention of closing down Victoria. She is free to send us a document which after scrutiny will be posted on our site. We closed it due to off topic and constant spamming!

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  495. Giulia,

    a brilliant analyse! That´s the way it is and in my eyes no one of the enlightened stuff has any of the human qualities our western society is buildt on like solidarity, empathy and the sanctity of human rights.

    Recording to be a buddhist and a deep believer in the vajrayana transferences Mary Finnigan is not the person who could go to a level to get rid of it all, like June Campell did, like I do too. So I find it difficult to see her in an objectiv position to tibetan tantrism, but I respect her investigations in sexual assaults. That`s a great work.

    But even she is not aware of some facts, so it can happen she endorses one who was accused of abuse like Trunkpa and Sakya Trinzin.

    Quote from RickRoss:
    “I know, I know — he’s hardly an example of a sober,monogamous democrat, but he was by far the most realised and street wise TB teacher we have experienced in the developed world.”

    I cannot believe that estimation.

    Annother quote I agree with:
    “I don’t know how one judges “most realized” in the case of someone whose behavior was out of control, and who died of alcoholism. Statements by former students also reveal Trungpa was a drug addict. That seems like an odd standard of “realization”.

    http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,100679,page=6

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  496. It is tricky to put up Tibetan lamas for a public trial (as the law seems to prescribe). To be abused by a catholic priest and to see him land behind the bars is quite a different thing from being a victim of a Tibetan lama and reporting him and seeing him in trial and in prison. The victim of a catholic priest is angry and then more or less “happy” / “satisfied” when Justice has it’s course. But the Tibetan system is shrewd and more dangerous. “One has to always see everything the lama does as perfect”, the lamas present themselves (or, rather are presented as such by their buddies, who later see this favour returned) as “Buddha on earth”, which is, according to the belief system, a lot more that “God on earth”. The “samayas” prohibit saying anything negative about the lama, even thinking anything negative about the lama. One constantly hears that, if one does everything the lama tells one to do, everything will turn out very good for one and that one must remain faithful. Furtheron, if one breaks the samayas, one will surely go to Vajra-Hell, which is about the worst hell according to the system (Tibetan Buddhism has many types of hells). Therefore, I believe that victims of sexual / psychological /…. abuse of lamas need specialized psychological help.

    Actually this is for a new message, but people seem to think I should write two different topics in one post: It seems to me that many many teachers / lamas / Rinpoche are borderline cases due to the twisted ways in which they were brought up and, once fully empowered by their tulku-ship, many of them take this out massively on their students, in many sadist ways. Quite some of them are frustrated by the fact that people in the West seem to have everything a lot better organized than them and by the fact that they depend financially on Westerners, so some of them seem to take it out a lot more on Westerners. But it are especially the women who get pestered a lot more. Due to reasons obvious in terms of psychoanalysis it seems to me. Many of those children have been robbed from their mothers at a tender age and put in monasteries under the care of monks who have been victims themselves. Deep down they must hate all women because “Where was mummy when I needed her?” At the same time, it is all too obvious they are just clamouring for love and attention from women and many of them mess up, most probably due to the engrained love/hate relationship in their own minds.

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  497. PLEASE STOP SPAMMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KEEP YOUR POSTS TO SINGLE SUBMISSIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  498. I have recognized a Chinese boy in a swimming pool somewhere in Africa as the reincarnation of Jamgon Kongtrul; I have seen a school teacher somewhere else in Africa who is a reincarnation of …. (will check to see whether he is still alive); I know others…… I will not divulge anything because, as it stands, real tulkus seem to get killed.

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  499. Giulia, please keep your consecutive posts consolidated to a single post. Breaking it up into several posts means you are simply spamming the RSS comment feeds, although i suspect this is a purposeful tactic on your part to spam this blog!

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  500. Tenzin Gyatso DL saying, even to tulkus living in a Geluk-monastery: “Don’t mix in this, this is an internal Tibetan affair”.
    “China” saying “Don’t mix with how we deal with the Tibetans, it is an internal affair”.

    I don’t agree with them.
    Mr. Kalou Rinpoche is a lama living in Paris. He has been abused. Maybe he is in danger. I am talking Schengen.
    There are many others living in the USA, Canada, Schengen, andsoforth. If child abuse is rampant in Tibetan buddhism and so many Tibetan lamas live in the West, then no doubt child abuse, etc. is “exported” also.

    The matter of who killed Geshe Lobsang Gyatso is already with Interpol. It is important that the right ones get caught. Interpol is not an “internal Tibetan” organisation.

    “The Chinese” may say this is all an internal affair.

    To me, it seems an international affair. To me, it seems that one cannot play with an organisation like Interpol. To me, it seems that Interpol et al. should have full information on these matters as more and more Tibetans are coming to the West.

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  501. The monastery I am talking about is allegedly the monastery where Mao Tse Tung hibernated with the red troops arriving one autumn and staying all winter, before marching up to the inlands of China.

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  502. The day after our arrival, they had blown up the road with dynamite but Paul But did not feel well in the monastery anymore and wanted to leave rightaway. I myself was imbued with big power and lifted the rocks from the road for more than an hour.

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  503. I am quite sure somebody now will post again on “Sogyal has slept with X according to Y” so that the more important issue that I want to deal with here (murder in Buddhism) gets overruled.

    I am not in favour of whoever, I am against murdering. This is my motivation. I am against murderers and killers.

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  504. What I DO know is that in Dordogne they have poisoned me various times in the year that I discovered they have an active DS statue there (1999).
    What I DO know is that in spring 2003 in Bir 1.55 Tenzin Namgyal has for sure tried to kill me with poison and that, when this failed, they lured me to Mahamudra teachings with Tai Situ Rinpoche in Sherab Ling, which normally were only for a selected group of students that had been following these with him before and that were paying for the course. I was invited and stimulated to go there, to my big surprise, and did not even need to pay. I was then sitting in the temple listening to the teachings and next to me was one place free and then a Chinese man from Hong Kong came there to sit next to me. After this, I also felt strange, maybe I was once again poisoned. Anyway, this Chinese man talked to me a lot. I then left by jeep from Sherab Ling but the Chinese man (Paul But from Hong Kong) was running towards the jeep. I think he was calling out that he wanted to invite me or something. I thought: What the hell does that guy want and since I was in a jeep with a driver I know he barked at him: “Get going, don’t stop, GO” and we left with Paul But still standing there calling out to me.

    Later in autumn 2003 I was bored and Paul But kept calling me and emailing me and he said he was going to go to Tibet/China. I said I dreamt of such a journey, but that I did not have the money. He then invited me to come with him to China and he paid my journey. When we came to the monastery which Tai Situ wanted us to visit, the local monk(s) gave us a tour of the premises. After showing us a couple of buildings one of them said: “I know go to Paul to that house up there. It is the protector’s house and only men can see it”. I found it a strange remark. I think Paul But took pictures in that protectors’ temple. When we had already left (sooner than the monks wanted us to leave), Paul discovered in the car that his camera was missing. He went back to the monastery to fetch the camera. One of the monks gave it to him, but first checked the pictures on the camera.

    In spring 2004 I saw Paul But again in Sherab Ling. I wanted to talk to him, but a monk came quickly to lead me away from him. I think his last words to me were: “Do you still have pictures of that journey? I am asking because my camera got lost”.

    From my room in Bir mysteriously has disappeared the business card of Paul But (with his address and so on). Over the past year, I have thought everything over and have discovered some of these people have tried to kill my various times. Then, I started to wonder whether Paul But is still alive. The people that used to have contact with him have not heard from him for years.

    The photos of that journey with Paul to the monastery in China, that Tai Situ from Sherab Ling (Bir, India) had asked Paul to travel to and to give money to, I posted on my Facebook account “Jelly Dorje” in the FB Photo-Album “China”. These pictures have been stolen from my house in Holland, even though I had been hiding them really well on the attic.

    The monastery that we visited seemed quite well maintained, especially the small retreat rooms, which had good stoves and beautiful wooden floors and all. The local committee of the Communist Party of the neighbouring village seemed to be great friends of the monks who claimed lived in that monastery and we were royally received by that committee. Almost in each retreat room was a large picture of Tenzin Gyatso, Dalai Lama, which surprised us. But maybe they had merely hung those pictures there temporarily, to give us a good impression and maybe thus hoping for a larger donation (more money).

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  505. Mary is directing her fan club in RR:

    “Skip anything by “Giulia” and skim read Bella B.”

    … :D

    When “ThomasKent” wrote his comments, all Mary could say: “we live in parallel universes”. It really seems that way. When someone tells to her about reality and Sogyal Rinpoche’s skills, Namkhai Norbu’s view on SR, Mary ignores it. Dementia and ignorance?

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  506. I posted the above for DI to read too, if they haven’t.

    I ask them to question these “Mary Finnigan truths” themselves too.

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  507. By the same commentator from rickross:

    “The documentary you mention, I’ve found is called “In The Name Of Enlightenment’ , Episode 3 of the 4-part cable TV series ‘Sex Scandals In Religion’. It does exist and was aired on 23 May 2011 on Vision TV, a Christian-run but interfaith cable small-audience channel in Canada, and in 2011 on Earthbook TV, a cable channel in Ireland which has the same owner. It appears not to have been picked up by any other channel anywhere. However, it has been praised as an objective, high-quality documentary series, and the other episodes cover abuse within Judaism in New York and Islam in Iran. It appears not to have covered sex scandals within mainstream Christianity, which owns the station.”

    “There are a few things on the internet criticising Sogyal Rinpoche, but it’s very far from a deluge. Most seem to come from the same source and they don’t seem very reliable.”

    “If there is evidence against Sogyal Rinpoche, it must be aired. I encourage Blue Dakini to keep working to expose this corruption and abuse, but to increase her own credibility and the seriousness with which she is taken by holding to higher standards of evidence and journalistic ethics than those she has so far displayed.”

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  508. Thank you for reminding us, BellaB, of the fact that Guru Rinpoche came to subjugate and re-educate the wild Tibetan population.
    I had no idea “the Chinese” support DS worshippers, but do know that in June 2007 Interpol issued a Red notice for two of the Shugden supporters accused of killing Geshe Lobsang Gyatso, Director of the Institute of Buddhist Dialectics in Dharamsala, and two of his monks.
    I remember well the day Geshe LG was murdered because I was meditating (in McLeodGanj) and a thunder was in the sky even though there were no clouds. A couple of days afterwards, I went to the local photo-shop to pick up my tourist pictures, but the shop-keeper made a mistake and handed me the police pictures of the murder-site. On the floor were a pool of blood and a couple (2) of phurbas (knives) and I remarked to the shop-keeper and my boy-friend, who was with me, before giving the pictures back: “Look, this is strange, it looks as if they have put the phurbas there just for show”, and I showed them that the phurbas were not stained with blood at all, but were merely laying there. I turned to the shop-keeper and asked: “Why would they do that, lay the knives next to the pool of blood just like that??”
    Latter, in summer, (1997) I asked Orgyen Tobkyal and Jigme Khyentse and maybe also tulku Pema Wangyal in Dordogne where it was a specific Tibetan ritual: to lay ritual knives next to a dead body or site where somebody has been murdered. I got no answer.

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  509. Visited rickross, where Mary slanders on.

    Saw a message from somebody and felt happy reading it, since it’s closer to my view on SR, even though the person seems to know him far better. I’m not the only one to question Mary’s stories.

    “Sogyal Rinpoche is one of my teachers. I studied with him, Namkhai Norbu and Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche from 1986 to 1992, and have also studied with Chadgud Tulku and many other Tibetan and also Theravadin teachers. I have not been closely associated with him since 1998 as I disagreed with the corporate structure that Rigpa was developing and I also found my real root teacher. Nowadays I see him every few years. I have no connection with Rigpa though I still have some friends there.

    There is absolutely no doubt that Sogyal Rinpoche was recognised as as incarnation of Terton Sogyal and trained as a Buddhist teacher by first, the greatest Nyingmapa master of the twentieth century, Jamgon Khyentse Chokyi Lodro and then by His Holiness Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and His Holiness Dudjom Rinpoche, and later still by Chogyam Trungpa. I know this from many sources: my two best friends, students of Dudjom Rinpoche who have had many high lamas visit their house and give teachings, told me stories of Sogyal Rinpoche as a youngster with Dudjom Rinpoche. My main teachers are the grandson of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and the incarnation of Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro, and they both knew Sogyal Rinpoche from an early age. Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche has said more than once in my presence that Sogyal Rinpoche is a fully qualified Dzogchen master. Geshe Dharghey, former head of the Library of Tibetan works and Archives in Dharmsala and regarded as one of the most respected, revered and knowledgeable Gelugpa lamas, told me personally that he grew up in the same village opposite Sogyal Rinpoche and had great respect for him. Friends of mine have accompanied Sogyal Rinpoche on visits to Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Trulshik Rinpoche, and many other high lamas who treated him as a son and gave him teaching and initiations explicitly to pass on to his students. Two friends of mine studied with Chogyam Trunpa during the ‘late 70-s – early ’80s and remember him training Sogyal Rinpoche. I was close to Lama Trijang, one of the main heart sons of the great Chatral Rinpoche. He was so knowledgeable that whenever I came back and told him of teachings that I had got from Namkhai Norbu, he would enlarge on the teachings for me, chanting these quite rare teachings by heart, and teach me more about them, whereas other quite famous and erudite lamas could tell me nothing. He always attended Sogyal Rinpoche’s retreats and had great respect and reverence for him.

    With regard to the book, the foreword says that it was complied from transcripts of lectures given by Sogyal Rinpoche from 1986-1991. During those years, he would give the same teachings or lectures in France, Germany, Britain and the USA. I personally attended almost every teaching in the book in Australia. Not only that, but I transcribed many of the Australian ones and there are German and French teachings in the book that are virtually word-for-word identical. Moreover, to amuse myself I sometimes asked Rinpoche obscure questions on Buddhist doctrine and I also saw such questions asked by some people who were extremely qualified academically in Tibetan studies and had spent years in Tibetan monasteries. Rinpoche always answered them easily.

    In those twelve years, I never saw Rinpoche act with the least impropriety as regards sex. He traveled tourist class, paid for his girlfriend’s fare himself, and never accepted any gratuity or gift. He usually traveled with a girlfriend, one for two years, one for five. They were not drawn from his students, and they were extraordinary and gifted independent women. At one retreat, I met the wives of two of the Prime Ministers of Australia. He worked constantly and never lived high. He was sometimes brusque and even bullying with rich, powerful students, and always very kind and compassionate with poor students such as myself. During one retreat I saw him give his lunch and his dinner to a girl who was not eating (and I will point out that this was not a girl whom anyone would bed whatsoever, but a street person who, like me, Rigpa let attend retreats free).

    I think that the courses Rigpa gives are expensive and I disagree with that. Nevertheless, I have at different times seen the accounts for the Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne centres, and know that the courses only just pay for the premises. Attending services and pujas is free of course, to everybody. I saw at first hand over many years the trouble that organisers took to make the annual three-week residential retreat affordable, and at about now $800 (I think) it is a fraction of the price of most four-day training, business or computing seminars.

    I am not saying that there may not be valid claims. I have not seen the documentary and therefore have no evidence. But I know certainly and from my own experience that claims he is not trained or not entitled to be called Rinpoche, and claims that he did not write ‘The Tibetan Book Of Living And Dying’, are complete and total fiction.”

    http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,100679,page=2

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  510. “Even now there are death threats against Dorje Shugden worshippers in India, and Dorje Shugden followers have been accused of ritual murder in Dharamsala.”

    Oh, really? Chinese news didn’t make that yet available to us.

    I wonder why the shugden worshippers continue to practice when the whole Government on Exile have asked NOT to. It is said to be a wordly spirit (not Buddhist) and it is said that quitting practice will be harmful. One could try to quit and see if the spirit’s hold is *real*!

    On the contrary I have heard mostly that the shugden practitioners are the violent ones. I really ask myself why they don’t stop the stupid practice? The most important leader of non violence has asked them to stop. The Chinese support the shugden practitioners, because they are the only group – with the Chinese political elite – who don’t support HHDL. Everybody else supports HHDL, even ordinary Chinese citizen, most likely! Who would support the violent Chinese tyranny!

    I have heard that the Tibetans have been very violent in the past. The ones I have met are very kind and mostly peaceful, but they are also very passionate people underneath, more than the Westerners.

    The commonly known story is that Guru Padmasambhava came and influenced the violent nation strongly. If you are a Buddhist, you may know the story? If you are paid by the Chinese government, I hope your politicians will be under Tibetan rule one day! Big time! ;)

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  511. And Mary, if you’re reading this, I trust you know this is not personal. My guess is we’re not terribly dissimilar people. But, as both of us are public figures to some extent, we also know that strong tones go with the territory. But if you’ve in any way taken this as a personal attack on you, that is farthest from my intent. My concern is with the flaws in logic, not all of which are yours, but to which some of your work contributes.

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  512. P.S. Mentioning that, from personal experience, Adventism can and will lead to pain and divorce in Irish families is hardly a diversion, or if it is, you should at least begrudgingly look into the matter. I’ve seen it too many times.

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  513. “Did I not tell you she is not,”

    She referred to what’s happening here three days ago on Rick Ross. I don’t see why it’s a big deal whether she’s following the DI conversation on the article she submitted. I would expect her to.

    I have taken up residence on the blog because glaring questions are going unanswered. I remain curious as to why people purporting to alert the public, would be upset that the public is actually paying attention and participating in the conversation.

    If you are to have the public believe that on of the chief accusers of Sogyal is trustworthy, then the question of the accusers’ own supporters not believing her on a second accusation, is paramount. No one here has addressed that, other than to try and stifle any conversation about removed at the same time as Ms. Finnigan is endorsing him.

    Even if you consider me a pain in the behind, your own cases can be made stronger for having people like myself point these problems out so they can be fixed. That is, if you folks are really serious about getting an indictment against Sogyal Rinpoche, which I’m actually starting to suspect you’re not.

    By suggesting I write to Inform, which I will, are you saying Victoria Barlow is not a good enough witness to go on? It was my understanding that Mary Finnigan, DI, and other supporters of this case against Sogyal Rinpoche were very invested in Victoria Barlow’s testimony, and that in fact her testimony was central to the 1994 Santa Cruz County case.

    I haven’t investigated other witnesses yet, because I’ve quite frankly had my hands full looking into Victoria Barlow, and ran into the removed problem. Which I’ve still gotten no answer on.

    Either Victoria Barlow’s testimony is accurate, or it isn’t.

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  514. As the article was sent to us by Mary we assumed she had got permission to publish it. I have now written to Marianne to respectfully seek permission to continue to hold this on our blog.
    Sheila you seem to be a slow learner in regard to applying apologies.
    Mary Finnigan is, I believe, following this thread, as she’s referencing it on Rick Ross. I would hope she would be following it here, and would join in to clear up some of the issues raised.
    Did I not tell you she is not, she got sickened by the personal attacks and left. Whether she tunes in or not I have no idea.
    How does one subscribe/unsubscribe to the DI blog? I am able to post here without any subscription. I’m curious why you’d say Mary “unsubscribed.”
    She used to get email alerts something you obviously do not need as you have taken up residence on the blog. When she had had enough then she asked us to unsubsribe from getting those alerts.
    Look, I’m not trying to be a poop. But there’s some very hinky stuff going on here, and it really must be addressed.
    Yes Conan Doyle it is now time for a day off!
    Also could you use your considerable talents to write to Inform at the LSE and ask for the briefing document on our man!
    Do you note you have avoided this report and have not addressed this yet. Sheila yes Sheila 1997 I heard a former assistant inform us at a conference on NRMs and violence that she was subject to horrendous abuse, physical, mental and spiritual.Public lecture. Go and use your poop and hinky stuff to check that out. See if you can do that before making another diversion on the advent of the Messiah

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  515. Thank you, Dharmadamsel, I am so fed up to hear people say that Tibetan clerics have always been at peace with each other and still are, when this is obviously not true.
    What you say PLUS: “in some cases Dorje Shugden followers have been accused of ritual murder in Dharamsala, whereas the police pictures clearly show that the on the floor lying phurbas (knives) are not stained with blood, i.e. not used for the murder, and, thus, the DS followers might not have carried such murder(s) at all” (cf. Director of Dialectological Institute, Dharamsala, Feb. 1997 — Interpol case).

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  516. It’s hard to believe any Buddhist would try to kill somebody? Please, Tibetan history is full of lethal poisonings. Several of the Dalai Lamas didn’t live to adulthood, due, it’s suspected, to poisoning ordered by power-hungry regents. In “The Story of Tibet”, the Dalai Lama says historically the Gelug and Kagyu monasteries waged war with each other. And let’s not forget the Tibetan army’s attempt to defend themselves at the onset of the Chinese invasion. The Dalai Lama says soldiers for that army were recruited from the monasteries (“The Story of Tibet”). In another example, after discovering that border guards had inadvertently allowed British spies to enter Tibet, the 13th Dalai Lama gouged out the eyes of the guilty border guards, and threw the one in charge off a cliff. Tibet was no Shangri-La. Even now there are death threats against Dorje Shugden worshippers in India, and Dorje Shugden followers have been accused of ritual murder in Dharamsala.

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  517. According to the email I received from Matheiu Maire du Poset, chief web content editor for Marianne, no one at Marianne has approved the translation.

    My guess is Marianne has also not approved the repost, though they likely would if the proper steps were followed.

    Here’s the email from M. du Poset – I will forward the conversation to whomever here would like it, though it’s not really unexpected information:

    Bonjour

    non elle n’a pas été approuvée par nous.

    Cordialement,

    Mathieu Maire du Poset

    Marianne
    Responsable du développement internet
    Rédacteur en chef adjoint web

    01 53 72 29 52
    http://www.marianne2.fr

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  518. DI – thank you for the background on Fecris, and how articles work here.

    My question was whether the translation hosted here on DI had been approved by its author and/or publisher, so that when working with it, I can be certain there will be no misunderstandings.

    Mary Finnigan is, I believe, following this thread, as she’s referencing it on Rick Ross. I would hope she would be following it here, and would join in to clear up some of the issues raised.

    How does one subscribe/unsubscribe to the DI blog? I am able to post here without any subscription. I’m curious why you’d say Mary “unsubscribed.”

    Look, I’m not trying to be a poop. But there’s some very hinky stuff going on here, and it really must be addressed.

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  519. As a final thought, if women are being abused by 98% of Tibetan teachers in the west, as someone has mentioned, why on earth would you tell someone to set this aside and give it a rest?

    If the accusations are true, you should very much want people like me to dig in with everything they’ve got.

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  520. Sankappa, with all due respect, these articles are not being hosted on DI for the purposes of giving the subject a rest.

    Victoria’s accusations against removed are rejected even by the most stout anti-Sogyal campaigners. Yet her accusations against Sogyal Rinpoche are taken on faith?

    This is bogus. Tibetan teachers–citizens with rights–are being openly accused, in public, of crimes. This is not child’s play, and to treat it as something that should now just be set aside with a shrug of the shoulders, is indecent.

    As I said when first joining DI, being accused of a crime is a serious matter, and making accusations of a crime is a serious matter. I have no intention of dropping the matter. I have set aside my other political pursuits, and am now working on this.

    Wasn’t that in fact the whole point of raising these accusations in the first place? To get people to take them seriously?

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  521. Dharmadamsel, you make accusations against removed only days ago in this very discussion, lol:

    “A friend of mine who was assaulted by Sogyal had a miscarriage, so, fortunately she wasn’t stuck raising his child. removed at least uses a condom.”

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  522. Thank you Sheila.
    I will remind you of what I wrote about 1997. We have been aware of this issue since then.
    The reason we have a French version is that we are part of Fecris and receive material from all over Europe. In this case we received the material from our Belgium group in the French language, so we posted it in both.
    Also when we get an article we try to get a pdf of it. In fact Mary unsubscribed from our blog a few weeks ago
    and is unlikely to be following any of this.
    I suggested you contact her directly as we have no connection with her. Also we are prepared to publish new posts once they are cleared by our Buddhist expert.
    This is for the obvious reason that I am a Christian theologian and cult expert, and have no knowledge about Buddhism.
    I did reference the LSE and Inform known for their value free approach. They could confirm what I heard in 1997.

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  523. (I guess this was originally written by Victoria Barlow?)

    http://www.american-buddha.com/finneg.1.htm

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  524. Sakya Trizin BS

    http://www.american-buddha.com/suck.trizin.htm

    Here is even the contact info of the police for women to contact:
    http://www.american-buddha.com/am.learn.10.htm

    Why there aren’t many more cases, if terrible things happen all the time?

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  525. I’m not aware that any accusations against removed have been made public, much less “pages and pages”. If I’ve missed something, could someone post a reference or link, please?

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  526. I think the constant slander against Sogyal’s sexual life & mistakes is obstructing the necessary unveiling of & debate about the religious-political murders. Next step is to go through the canon of “buddhist” literature and “buddhist” theorems and eliminate all that which can lead to dangerous brain-washing & mind-manipulation & emotional black-mail. But all the “Sogyal is a dog” bashing is preventing progress.

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  527. “It’s just hard to believe ANY Buddhist would try to kill anybody.”

    Well, wake up: http://www.amazon.com/Buddhas-Not-Smiling-Uncovering-Corruption/dp/0977225305 (whole text available online) + look at my Photo-Album “In Memoriam” on my Facebook account Jelly Dorje + read my “Notes” on that Facebook account that describe some of the attempts to murder me + inquire at local police here where I have laid down a police report about the most recent attempts + theft of my photos as to be seen in my Photo-Album “China” on my Facebook account Jelly Dorje + erasing of some documents of mine from a USB-stick I own.

    It is exactly the MURDERING of religious-political nature which motivates me to participate on this forum here. I am idealist and I want to *limit* as much as possible further murdering by *opening* people’s eyes.

    “It’s also so that you claim to know that someone is ‘traveling in secret’” — this is what also one of the Orgyen Trinleys himself has said lately in Bodhgaya, in a video that I published on my Facebook site “Jelly Dorje” and that was published at http://www.kagyuoffice.org. Also, someone sent me a photograph in which OT is in the audience of a lecture of Dalai Lama in Argentina.

    My drama is: for some reason or other I have a heavy connection to this Karmapa-stuff, and they and his family somehow have come to me again and again and when they travel in secret (he left already from India beginning of May, instead beginning of July) I suffer very much and of course I hate this, especially since they have so *many* secrets.

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  528. Sheila, some genuine empathetic and compassionate advice: step back from this and give it a rest

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  529. Here’s what I don’t understand. Victoria Barlow writes pages and pages of detailed accusation against removed. Mary Finnigan was the first one to bring Victoria Barlow’s accusations against removed public back in the 1990s, best I can tell.

    However, now Mary (and other anti-Sogyal people here) hasten to distance themselves from the removed accusations, and Mary has gone so far as to outright endorse removed in her latest Guardian article.

    Mary’s (and Dialogue Ireland’s) constant rant against skeptics like me, is that we “don’t believe the victims.” And yet they themselves have decided Victoria Barlow’s statements against removed are bunk.

    I ask again: how on earth are we supposed to believe Victoria Barlow’s accusations against Sogyal Rinpoche, if Mary Finnigan believes Victoria Barlow is lying about removed? They have provided zero response and explanation has to this glaring problem, yet they continue to forward Victoria Barlow’s accusations against Sogyal Rinpoche as God’s own truth.

    This is such a farce I can hardly stand being here any more, except I know that’s what the Machine wants, so I feel compelled to stay. Lucky wumao, you’ve caught a breather for the time being (tho I know some of you are here; must be driving you nuts sit on the sidelines. Frankly, you deserve to chafe in silence give your treatment of others).

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  530. I don’t trust Mary Finnigan, since she has lied so much already. I know many things to be lies. About sexual stuff I don’t have any experience. Since her new BS blog is so sick and again filled with things that are just outrageous (I have already told which ones I consider outright lies or exaggerations) I have no reason to trust the whole story.

    I wonder why do you believe her? Because she published in the Guardian or you like trash newspapers and slanderous style in general (MF’s blog and writings here)?

    Other people have questions Victoria Barlow’s stories too, so is there any reason to have 100% faith in either of them? They are both mentioned in the blog.

    Ngakpa Rinpoche: I have never met him, but what I wrote earlier are the reasons I have a feeling that Ngakpa wants to hit somebody, when he is himself a bit cornered in the Tibetan Buddhist world. Isn’t it often so that when we feel weak we feel a bit better about ourselves if we can criticize somebody else?

    I looked at Kalu Rinpoche’s video: it was short and sympathetic. Sometimes Tibetans look alike and that video’s style is so different from his teaching videos which is the reason to doubt authenticity. But then I saw the boy teaching without robes and I thought maybe he is the same person. Also, Kalu Rinpoche – if that is who he is – is not sending 20-50 videos about those painful things, but just one.

    Giulia, what makes me suspicious about your fear about them killing you: you sometimes write in a very hectic manner: 20 messages in a row. For me it feels like you are a bit manic to be completely okay. Maybe you are a bit stressed?

    I know in countries like India (if that is where you are!?) people might kill you just for money.

    It’s just hard to believe ANY Buddhist would try to kill anybody. It’s also so that you claim to know that someone is ‘traveling in secret’. What is that? A psychologist would probably say you are a bit paranoid too.

    If you fear for black magic, then I think it’s better to move away from India to so called ‘rational’ countries, have some distance to those events and fears.

    I used to know a Christian person who was into spirits and he even said he saw them. I don’t know if it’s true. I was a bit interested in his stories in the beginning, but then I got a bit afraid – and since I was introduced to Buddhism at the time, I took an idea from Buddhism:

    “Whatever you occupy your mind with, the mind – which is like a mirror – becomes that.” So I decided to stop paying attention to the spirit world that I anyway had no personal experiences about. I decided I don’t want to open the door to that *realm* if it existed.

    Could you Giulia just turn your mind away from the fearful stuff, move away from your neighborhood, if they brake your car – and find friends that can help you to be happy? Turn your mind away from scary monsters and just focus elsewhere. if you are too scared to focus your mind elsewhere, just move away from your surroundings! That will give you distance.

    About focusing your mind: I notice also Giulia, since I’m not focusing in the killings when I read this thread (it’s about sexual abuse, financial abuse), I didn’t even pay much attention to the killing part in Kalu R’s video. That is how mind works: it picks and chooses what it wishes. Mary’s mind is like that too: she has decided to become a Buddhism critic – so she doesn’t see much more. In this page I have grown to become a Mary critic: all that she writes, I doubt. I write down here all I see and know to lies or doubtful. Before this blog I didn’t even know Mary. Now I have an idea and I don’t like it.

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  531. Most notably BellaB? I’m afraid your resident skeptic would be me. BellaB’s actually been far more accepting of people’s statements than I have.

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  532. Interesting point you raise Guilia. There are many on this forum that want to deny other people’s experiences. Most notably bellaB.

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  533. Yangsi Kalu Rinpoche was declared to be the reincarnation of the deceased Kalu Rinpoche, of whom June Campbell wrote.

    Sheila, if you’re concerned, you can contact the administration of this blog, there’s contact info on the home page. Organizations like this usually have lawyers advising them.

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  534. Interesting that BellaB believes that the tutor of Kalu R. has tried to kill him, but that some people on this forum do not believe me when I say that several lamas have tried to kill me in a variety of ways.

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  535. So does that mean the translation hosted on DI is approved by Marianne and the original author, Elodie Emery?

    The article may be cited in future legal proceedings, and it’s important to determine that the translation is the final one, and approved.

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  536. From marianne2.fr:

    “Intellectual Property

    All elements (text, logos, images, software , layout, database, …) contained in the site and associated sites are protected by national and international law of intellectual property. These elements remain the exclusive property of Marianne and/or its partners. As such, unless with prior written permission of Marianne and / or its partners, you can not make any reproduction, adaptation, translation and/or total or partial transformation, or transfer to another web site any material from the site. Failure to comply with these restrictions may constitute trademark infringement a criminal offense.”

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  537. If that video is authentic from Kalu Rinpoche, I feel sorry for him and for others, if there are such things going on. Abused kids abusing others…

    Now, maybe Mary Finnigan could feel a bit compassion toward him? He doesn’t seem to be the same person as the one who had relationship with June Campbell? Even though I would still think the past Kalu R would have loved and liked June however secret that was.

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  538. Well, translations are very, very important. Before using the article as a basis for research, I want to be absolutely certain that Marianne stands by the translation DI posted. Untold problems can arise from subtle differences in translation. That’s why, generally, translations must be approved by the original author and publisher.

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  539. I think we can trust D.I. and Finnigan to be professional enough to know what can be posted, what can’t, and to observe the requirements of copyright law.

    The young reincarnation of Kalu Rinpoche has given back his robes, and is speaking out about violence and child sexual abuse in the monasteries. For his video, see:
    http://www.downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.com/2011/12/confessions-of-kalu-rinpoche_04.html

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  540. Just out of curiosity, is it legal to publish someone else’s print article online in its entirety, and has the translation been approved?

    I’m all for the article’s dissemination, because as I’ve said before, the more people talk, the more truth comes out (either directly or between the lines).

    But just wondering whether Marianne approved the spontaneous online release, and also whether Marianne stands by the translation as posted on DI.

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  541. My apologies to sankappa and DI…Mary Finnegan’s entire edit is indeed on RickRoss, though broken up into several posts. I thought those were partial drafts of what would become the debut article, which I thought first appeared in its final-edit entirety here on DI. The articles on RickRoss are not posted under Mary Finnigan, but “Blue Dakini.” It took me a while to realize Blue Dakini, pema and others were all Mary Finnigan.

    Definitely my bad. Though in my defense, the article as it appears here on DI looks final and professional, whereas the Rick Ross stuff as usual consists of unsightly cut’n’pastes sandwiched in between other people’s cut’n’pastes, and the French language version did not follow as it does here, except as a link, further contributing to the sense that this was a series of excerpts or drafts.

    Sankappa – the first excerpt actually starts on page 2, before I had joined the conversation, not page 3 as your link indicated, but it was still my fault for not being thorough.

    http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,100679,page=2

    It also took me a while to figure out that Mary Finnigan is not a staff writer for DI. To the uninitiated, it looks for all the world as if Mary Finnigan works for DI.

    DI remains the only site I am aware of to contain the Mary Finnigan edit in its polished, contiguous form, including the entire French source, complete with final touches such as italics and other formatting.

    I don’t see any reason DI would have a problem being thought of as the place the article debuted in it’s final form; but if indeed that is a problem, probably best to append it with a note mentioning that a fractured version appeared elsewhere first, so that it doesn’t continue to seem as if Mary Finnigan is a staff writer for DI.

    I apologize again, though, for shoddy work on my end!

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  542. “Patrick Gaffney. Some former insiders, like the journalist Mary Finnigan, go further:
    “Patrick is the real brains behind Rigpa,” she says, “Sogyal is merely the public persona.”
    Patrick played an equal role with Sogyal during the Lerab Ling temple ceremony – highlighting his dominant position in the Rigpa hierarchy.”

    I wonder how Patrick would react to this “information”! He would never assume a position higher than SR. How ridiculous “insider knowledge” Mary has…

    ““He was a slave driver”, says one squatter, Jack, “he had us working flat out, restoring the house, building a shrine, putting up shelves and so on – while he sat around directing operations.” People like businessman Jean Lanoe involved in the construction of the Lerab Ling temple would affirm that in this respect also, Sogyal has not changed.”

    I wonder in which Western Buddhist organization ANY Tibetan master would be doing the brick work, cleaning up and so? Western people have at least that amount of knowledge of the position of the lama that they would never ask the lama to do these things.

    “Ngakpa Chogyam also became aware of gaps in Sogyal’s knowledge:
    “He asked me a lot of questions about Dzogchen”, he says, “and I was surprised by the way he’d enquire – almost, I thought at the time, as if he didn’t know the answers. I ended up talking a lot when we were alone together – but it occurred to me later that he never asked questions like this when anyone else was around.””

    Didn’t it occur to Ngakpa that MAYBE Sogyal Rinpoche was testing him of his knowledge and understanding? Maybe he failed since he is not invited to teach in Rigpa? And if Ngakpa Chogyam thought for a VERY long time (mentioned in their web pages until recently and he has been into Buddhism for decades now) that he is part of a Terma tradition – it really makes me wonder what he understands at all.

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  543. I looked into Aro’gTer lineage, where Ngakpa Chogyam is the holder of the lineage. He is the only Tibetan Buddhist lama (a Western person) who criticizes Sogyal Rinpoche.

    He is said to have been authorized to teach by Khamtrul Yeshe Dorje. Before this letter appeared to the public, Ngakpa claimed he was continuing the lineage of Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche, but there was no proof. Then they wonder why people question their authenticity.

    What I have heard of them that they don’t follow traditional Tibetan tradition, no Ngondro is in the program. They introduce advanced methods to young new students. They consider emulating a teacher as something like wearing similar clothing, liking similar food or entertainment. SR has never mentioned this group nor criticized it. SR has said though in his teachings that emulating the teacher has nothing to do with blowing your nose like the teacher does. He has said also that blowing into kangling or following a teacher who is a similar ‘freak’ like you are yourself is not the point. (Freak is MY interpretation of that group not SR’s – like I said he has never mentioned this group. Since they never mix with any Tibetan teachers, they seem isolated, and I assume it has something to do with the nontraditional teachings. Tibetan Buddhism is quite particular about the texts and instructions in the texts.)

    “Khamtrül Ngak’chang Yeshé Dorje Rinpoche was a Nyingma Lama who practised mainly as a ‘village ngakpa’ – as a Tantric shaman specialising in shé-dür (exorcism) and weather control for the benefit of those amongst who he lived. He was a holder of the gö-kar-chang-lo, and was much loved by the Tibetan community in McLeod Ganj, in Northern India. In the later part of his life he became widely known as ‘the Dala’i Lama’s weather-maker’, and traveled widely helping people with the vagaries of the climates they had to endure. In southern India the Tibetan communities suffered from drought, so he brought rain. In Manali he averted hail. Before his death in 1993 he had begun to travel frequently to the USA where he performed shé-dür in many places for the benefit of those with sickness and mental disturbances. He visited many of the centres established by HH Dudjom Rinpoche, gave instruction on Dudjom gTér-sar ngöndro.

    He also made two visits to the UK where he taught at Rigpa in London and elsewhere. Yeshé Dorje Rinpoche was a master of Mahayoga – especially the practices of the Dudjom gTér-sar Tröma Nakmo. His main practice was Tröma gCod and it’s attendant rites, and his gCod drum and kangling were familiar implements to all those who visited him.”

    He taught in Rigpa! I think Ngakpa Chogyam is himself offended that SR didn’t recognize him in any special way.

    A Terma tradition? Their response: “A better question to ask is whether the Aro terma is useful. It is worth asking whether Aro is a “good fit” for you personally.”

    Doesn’t convince me of them… a personal fit?

    Before Aro gTer had also Terton Lerab Lingpa as their lineage master. Terton Lerab Lingpa happens to be Sogyal Rinpoche’s past incarnation. A heavily high lama who was predicted to achieve a lot in his next life (as Sogyal Rinpoche – and it has happened). Terton LL was a teacher for the 13th Dalai Lama. Sogyal Rinpoche was first in the West and took care of HHDL in his first visit to the West. There is an intimate karmic connection there – and Mary Finnigan’s BS blog is a ridiculous attempt to create a gap between those two.

    “The anti-Aro clique was mainly composed of former students of former teachers of Ngak’chang Rinpoche. Some of them seem to have been be motivated by jealousy, because their teachers authorized him to teach and not them. Others just plain didn’t like him. Either way, their criticisms concerned personality conflicts from twenty-plus years ago. Probably now everyone involved can let go of that.”

    He was authorized to teach by Khamtrul Yeshe Dorje Rinpoche. He was said to have visited UK 2 times in the early 90’s. How many Western students he could possibly have? I think this claim is ridiculous about jealous other students.

    And if everyone can let go of that by now… the how come SR is not left in peace? Mary Finnigan met him in the 70’s as did Victoria Barlow. He was less than 30 years old.

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  544. IMO Western / civilized nations should be very weary of granting citizenship / residency to “high lamas” as a lot of problems & violence might get imported with them. E.g.: How many times body-guards / staff of “certain high lamas” have been replaced / murdered / put into jail (possibly after a set-up)?

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  545. Sometimes I think other lamas are giving huge presents or sums of money to Sogyal so that he gets slandered all the time and the attention regarding issues “lamas and sex”…. is being diverted to him

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  546. For the sake of Sheila, I have posted a picture of the “so-called 18-year old” Orgyen Trinley on my FB-page “Jelly Dorje”.

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  547. Sheila: that;s what they say; but it is apparently not true. As said: in Dordogne they made a big fuss about this small episode and particularly Neten Chokling Rinpoche looked worried that I had known that boy. But also, that boy came back to my the restaurant of my hotel in the company of mr. Trogawa Rinpoche, now with monks’ robes on, and at that occasion I scolded him and tugged him at the ear and refused to speak to him and directed myself to Trogawa Rinpoche. The summer after that, Trogawa R. was in Dordogne and then most probably with the kid, as not only they made a fuss about that small episode, but they also sent me someone again and again that asked me whether right then I would like to have “sex with a 13-year old to teach him about sex”. I said: “What?? NO way!!”
    In 1999, then, I was in Dordogne again and when I went to a hill with my mother, the car of Neten Chokling had followed us and inside were some people who stepped out of the car and said Hello and shook hands with my mother and also in the car was a nice looking boy, who, in my view, was obviously a tulku, so I approached the car to also say Hello to him, but Chokling Rinpoche seemed to want to prevent me approaching the car and so I waved gaily at the boy in the car and said to Chokling: “He is a tulku, isn’t it?” Neten Chokling nodded gravely and said: “Yes, he is a tulku”. The boy observed me intensely and I had the idea he rather liked it that I looked at him and waved at him.

    At the end of summer 1999, Jigme Khyentse or somebody else asked to have that small towel that I always travel with and that the OT in my hotel room had secretly used for….. (as I had discovered a couple of days later) and they wanted to exchange it for a beautiful shawl. I gave them the small towel (although did not understand why they wanted to have it) and they gave me an embroidered shawl. But a few weeks later, during the empowerments of Trulshik Rinpoche in autumn, they also took that shawl from me.

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  548. “sankappa, I do not see any translation of the French article there – the version debuted here on DI is listed as “edited by Mary Finnigan,” and there is no such text on the link you just gave that I can see”

    The translated article from Marianne ends 2 posts above where you made a comment directly in relation to the said article.

    Sile on November 09, 2011 03:33AM:

    So, all you have to do to protect yourself from this Threat to Humanity is…not attend. Simply don’t attend any of Sogyal Rinpoche’s teachings.

    You’ll be avoiding an experience based on the ramblings of a French gossip column, but at the very least, you won’t risk being exposed to him.

    Or you could attend, and write something more professional, citing your sources, and have a wider impact than Marianne.”

    That is your comment I’m assuming Sheila.

    You commented on this article at Rick Ross 8 days before it appeared on DI, where you said it debuted. So in fact it did not debut on DI as you stated above and you were aware of it prior to being posted here.

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  549. Mary, are you aboslutely MAD?

    ”Eventually they announced that she should join them in an orgy.”

    Are sexually deprived in your 70’s or are you a pervert?

    ????

    Continue with your stories. They will prove to readers the state of your mind.

    Are you still writing to the Guardian? Somebody must check your writings before you send them and so they get published.

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  550. I wonder if those Rigpa people mentioned as part of SR’s harem could make a court case against Mary?

    Noticeable to me is the misspelling of those names. It is said in the blog that ‘Alison’ considers herself as SR’s ‘wife’. I only wish Mary Finnigan had true information about the relationship status of that particular woman.

    Mary, you don’t know anything, but just make up stories! What is wrong with you? Dementia?

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  551. If Victoria Barlow is telling the truth about removed, why are interested parties here saying that story is “garbage,” at the same time as Mary Finnigan is endorsing removed in her latest article?

    I think the removed issue is immensely important; Victoria writes literally pages accusing the man, yet Mary Finnigan, who is a huge Victoria Barlow supporter, apparently no longer believes the removed accusations, and neither do many here, even though Victoria has just days ago reposted her allegations against him (just before the thread was shut down).

    If Victoria’s pages of “detailed” recollections of removed abuse of her were untrue, why on earth are we to believe her accusations against Sogyal Rinpoche are true?

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  552. ”And to be clear here, bellaB, Sheila, et al, are you saying that all the people that have given statements for this document, are liars”

    I don’t claim so: I just don’t think they are *real*.

    There is a group of western psychologists working in Rigpa. One of them has her daughter in the group of lama care. Do you think she would allow her daughter to enter in the mad scene like Mary describes? Wiping his ass?

    Are you Sankappa such an innocent that you believe all the BS Mary produces? She is not okay in the head. Nothing else explains the content of that blog.

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  553. And there’s no need to ominously add “or should I say Sile?” when I’ve made it clear I was on RickRoss with the Adventist thing, and that Sile is obviously me. The legal spelling of my name, btw.

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  554. sankappa, I do not see any translation of the French article there – the version debuted here on DI is listed as “edited by Mary Finnigan,” and there is no such text on the link you just gave that I can see. I see references to people using Google Translate, but that is a far cry from a fully translated, edited article.

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  555. You know, it wasn’t until removed was mentioned, and then Ms Barlow showed up and reinforced those allegations that (after several attempts by mysterious newcomers to shut down the removed angle) the thread was closed.

    How on earth can DI purport to be a place where people can find out/debate what is going on with potential dangers in religion, if discussion of some teachers is fostered, while discussion of others is shut down?

    removed has been mentioned in the same breath as Sogyal Rinpoche by Mary Finnigan, Victoria Barlow and others, to include mention in the most recent Finnigan article hosted by DI, which we are discussing here.

    For some reason, someone here doesn’t want removed discussed and went so far as to shut off the thread; much as the Adventist thread was terminated on rickross.

    I don’t know who you people are, but if you’re bought off or otherwise biased for and against specific sects, there is no way anyone will take seriously what you are saying. I would think it would be in your own best interests to not be so visibly anti-Sogyal and removed. I mean, feign disinterest for Pete’s sake. Now instead of moving along on my former trajectory, I’m becoming increasingly determined to find out what the heck is going on.

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  556. In fact it appeared on the Rick Ross forum on Nov. 7 as you are well aware Shiela, or should I say Sile.

    http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,100679,page=3

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  557. How is my exhibiting good faith in trying to correct something I wrote, in an attempt to be more accurate, “diversion?”

    I must say, you chaps are awfully heavy handed with your condemnations. I really don’t know how you expect people to be anything but turned off coming here.

    How can you say you have no relationship to her when you post loads of her articles, and in fact her edit of the Marianne article debuted on DI? It’s just so bloody ironic – I had never heard of Mary Finnegan until coming to DI, so if that’s “no relationship,” you lot had better teach Herman Cain a few spin tricks, lol.

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  558. If you wish to change the question you ask that is fine. Diversion is the name of your game.
    We do agree with her position, but we do not have any relationship to her. You might have noticed we reported an item from the Guardian, please raise your item with that organ or as I have said directly with her. I repeat for the last time we have, no relationship with her nor have ever had. I met the woman once at the LSE in 1997 where she participated with a French woman in describing in the presence of a number of academics that what we have here was the true position. Please contact INFORM at the LSE. I have raised this a number of times and you have avoided it completely. We have no briefing document on HH Sakya Trizin our site as no one has written one.
    I will not be commenting on this again until you have followed up on the responses I have given you. I do not want to repeat myself ad nausem.

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  559. I should have said “much of the Briefing Doc.”

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  560. I think Mary Finnigan is weighted heavily here. Most of the “Briefing” doc comes from her research.

    DI hosts this Briefing Document, which is based largely on the work of Mary Finnegan and warns against a specific Tibetan teacher.

    This same Mary Finnegan is on-record both warning against, but now endorsing, without explanation, a second Tibetan teacher. This endorsement appears in an article hosted on DI.

    How are we to know Mary Finnegan has not changed her position on Sogyal Rinpoche? If you weigh her opinion strongly enough to openly accuse an individual of a crime (for which he’s never been indicted) and host a special document listing his alleged crimes, then people will rightly conclude that DI supports Mary Finnegan’s position on Sogyal Rinpoche.

    My question is: which of Mary Finnegan’s positions on removed does DI support? removed is a higher figure than Sogyal Rinpoche; why is there no briefing document on him?

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  561. We are hosting the article not Mary. Write to her on the Guardian blog or directly to her. We are not her post office.
    As we have said on a number of occasions, we will host any article which we receive after we have reviewed it.

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  562. BellaB, behindthethankas is Mary Finnigan aka Blue Dakini et al.

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  563. Which document, Sankappa?

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  564. Giulia, in 1997 HH Karmapa was 12, and living in Tibet, not India.

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  565. DI, I ask this here because the article you’re hosting (The Buddhist Organisations that are Thriving During the Debt Crisis by Mary Finnigan in The Guardian), Mary Finnigan endorses removed.

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  566. And to be clear here, bellaB, Sheila, et al, are you saying that all the people that have given statements for this document, are liars?

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  567. Just to clarify, they are not MY web pages

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  568. The previous was from bellaB

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  569. I’m not working for Rigpa, just read the thread of 749 messages and you’ll see.

    I find that page above incredible junk.

    If someone has the nerve, like Sheila, really to investigate the stuff, I’d be pleased.

    Surely, find out what is the truth, bring to court – but don’t expect any other than a fool to believe your anonymous web pages, Sankappa. What a soup you’re mixing.

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  570. Where there’s smoke, there’s fire. There wouldn’t be so many accusations, and even a lawsuit, over decades if there weren’t something inappropriate going on, on a routine basis. Bearing in mind our commitment to compassion, I believe we’re obligated to investigate the possibility of abuse on the part of any teachers named, and in the tradition as a whole. To deny or turn our backs on other people’s suffering only makes us complicit in that suffering.

    In view of Bella’s admission of her association with Rigpa earlier in the discussion, I can only conclude that Dialogue Ireland has been targeted for attack by Rigpa. This is far from an objective discussion.

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  571. I don’t know whose ugly mind has produced this BS-blog above, but I believe it’s Mary with the help of her friends.

    Ngakpa friend talks as some authority of Dzogchen and at the same time they offer ‘teachings’ without proper texts, just short versions: instant dharma. No preliminaries: just straight on chod-practices – or some psychedelic version of it as they offer. He has much greater authenticity problem in his hands than anybody.

    Attacking a higher lama with the slander is such a stupid act, I can’t believe NC lowers himself to act this way. True lama? It’s a clear sign that he himself is not truly genuine. He is as ordinary as me or Mary.

    The Deidre story seems unauthentic: I can’t believe SR moaning 6 hours after some woman. It doesn’t sound like him, at all.

    Compiled anonymous ‘stories’ created in the mind of a Mary… Even the way people ‘talk’ in the story is so similar. BS.

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  572. Sheila: I thank you very much for bringing the subject up; had not seen it until now. I studied Tibetan language in Darjeeling in 1997 at the request of a Tibetan lama. I was accosted by several managers and monks in temples and streets and ran away from them. One day, an American lured me to a restaurant and made me speak to a youngster that I was not interested in speaking to. He was in lay’s clothes and said he was a tour guide from Sikkim. I was not so interested in talking to him and I asked: But how old ARE you? He flirted heavily with me and assured me a couple of times he was 18. He begged me to take him to my hotelroom. I was not impressed, but he insisted very much. He said his name was Orgyen Trinley. We came to my hotelroom and I told him to sit down and wait as I had to do my daily practice. After this, we somehow landed up in bed but I noticed he looked rather young and unexperienced and also, that he did not speak English very well at all. I then threw him out of my bed and out of my room. The next morning, however, he was leaping into the hallway, full of hope, had been sleeping behind a curtain in an area full of rubbish. We then had breakfast together. I told him to leave as I needed to leave for school. Later I noticed he had stolen an earring from me (moon disc shaped of mother of pearl). Later that day, the American came back. The boy had sent him. The American put forward an official request I teach that boy about sex and all that. But I said: What? Where is he from anyway? Yesterday he said from Sikkim, today from Bhutan, he claims to be a tourist guide but does not even speak hardly a word of English nor Lhasa Tibetan. And how old is he anyway? I would swear that guy could be a monk. But the American insisted very much I “teach” that boy and he told me: “He is maybe not a tourist guide, but he is a guide”. And he asked me to please “teach” that boy. But I was adamant and refused, to the great disappointment of the American. Somehow later in Dordogne they seemed to know I had been “sleeping with a 13 or 14 year old” and I had no idea what they were talking about as 1. I had forgotten the small episode; 2. We had not really had sex; 3. he had said he was18 years old. Especially Chokling Rinpoche seemed to be worried by the idea I had seen that boy naked (to cool him off and to change his mind I had put him under the shower).

    I have been extremely enraged that because a liar and thief has tried to convince me to have sex with him, ME, I was the one to be frowned upon, especially in view of the fact that somehow he has blocked me from then on to engage in other relationship through his “magical powers” or whatever while he seems to be fucking his ears out AND claims to be a monk.

    For the rest, the youngest man I have slept with was a young man of almost 18 years old when I was 21 myself. I refuse to be depicted as child-rapist slut because mr. boddhisattva turns out to be a horny liar.

    Is that clear?

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  573. In that blog SR is shown as a showman and that is the reason people are there. It’s very shallow view.

    Don’t forget the very important aspect of any Tibetan Buddhist lama: he has been able to introduce many people to the nature of mind. To be able to reach so many people is one quality that has to do with his generous attitude.

    It is also a fact that a lama has to be qualified: one aspect of requirements is that he himself has stabilized Rigpa, the nature of mind. How many other teachers there are that have the Bodhicitta fully developed?

    Most visiting lamas in Rigpa do not run away. Many comment how fortunate we are as his students and that Sogyal Rinpoche has great amount of Bodhicitta.

    It’s too shallow to say it’s his charisma or sense of humour. Not everybody feels a connection to him and not everybody see anything else about him than the shallow side. That just shows their lack of understanding and ability to see, not about SR’s qualities.

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  574. Not sure why you have posted this here, as we have no connection to her!

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  575. P.S. I should have added that I don’t believe the removed stories. However, Ms. Finnigan and Victoria Barlow have released pages of detailed accounts of his alleged abuse, and I’d like to know why, in the latest Guardian article, Mary Finnigan is now advertising for removed as an example of a good teacher.

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  576. This article advocates removed as a teacher.

    I would like to know why Mary Finnegan is promoting this teacher, after exposing paragraphs of details as to his sexual abuse of students.

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  577. I think this needs to be read, and particularly by those who are still in denial about Sogyal and Rigpa:

    http://behindthethangkas.wordpress.com/

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  578. There are also some others with reality problems and fears about monk sex. Or should one just blame the Chinese propaganda machine?

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  579. DI moderation: We had warned that we would have to delete any one that continually ignored our policy of keeping to the thread. Giulia is now commenting more like an automaton than a person.
    It would give James Joyce a run for money with its free association. We will now delete with a vengeance but are hereby notifying you that we will be opening a forum soon, where people can pursue topics. We are not into censorship but need to have space for dialogue not for overload.
    See comments below:

    Marte-Micaela Riepe

    Giulia, please, for your own protection, stop it here and introduce your deep knowledge and experiences on your own website or blog. You need to speak out and to communicate with people, nothing is worse than loneliness and the feeling of being inwardly disintegrated.

    anon
    Submitted on 2011/12/02 at 9:41 am

    These postings are an abuse of free speech. The site has been hijacked by people with psychological problems and samaya violators, as well as people advertising their own faith. Some of the information here is totally out of context and open to misinterpretation. It should certainly not be in the public domain since there is the danger that it can cause psychiatric illness if misread-as it clearly already has in the case of one of the posters.

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  580. Also the first “USA-related” “bond” was totally and solely based on money/status issues and “mr. Bir” himself was not exactly overjoyed with this out of the blue coming up “bond” (a Dutch lover needed to be chased away first after ‘severe’ and humbling interrogation), but apparently has cooperated in trying to get rid of me?!
    That mentioned bond was presented as “overcoming attachment”, but, in fact, of course, was all about severe attachment to money & status, i.o.w. related to greed and hunger for status. I recommend here Tsen Chok Sumdendre tsun Drakpa Gyaltsenkyi dzebai Lojong Shenpa Shidrelkyi Menngak Nyingpo Tordue Shechaba Shukso.

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  581. Sheila, there is another thing to think about. Retention of seminal fluids as practiced by lamas can often prevent babies, but not always.

    In China the character for hemorrhoids is ‘temple illness’: male love is said to not have existed in Japan until it was introduced by Buddhist monks in the ninth century; homosexuality was prevalent in Yellow Hat monasteries in Tibet and was regarded as a virtue, since it meant that a monk had completely conquered sexual attachment to women.” Lust for Enlightenment by John Stevens.

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  582. One of the coolest reincarnations of a Tibetan lama who has an extremely well integrated form of life is the lead-singer of the music band Faithless. It is obvious to me he is a high and true reincarnation. I am waiting to see the day he will be enthroned & hope he keeps up his music work.

    to continue above: they have tried to do the same with Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche: get him as a member of family-in-law of the people in Bir: I have recognized the several presents in the Shambhala-centre in Halifax: big drum – typical Chokling monastery style; Vajrakilaya-painting typical Chokling monastery style. It was all about money & status; “nice try” we say in Dutch.

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  583. 机器自检: 网络评论请注意礼貌用语.

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  584. One of the coolest musicians I know is a young Jesuit priest, Ryan Duns. He posts a steady stream of Irish tunes on his YouTube site to help people learn. Brilliant, lovely guy.

    Most priests are not abusers; most priests are nice. Most monks are not abusers; most monks are nice.

    My grandma, grandpa, dad and uncle lived in Tibet, and none of them were ever abused by a Tibetan, monk or otherwise. On the contrary, the Tibetans were lovely to them.

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  585. Young novices in Catholic monasteries experience something similar to the Tibetan novices, only they’re older, so they can’t be overpowered. But they’re told by the priests and cardinals that if they want to improve their station in the monastery over time, they’ll need powerful friends, so they would do well not to decline inappropriate overtures. Likewise the Tibetan boys end up offering sexual services to higher-placed monks and lamas, looking to find a powerful patron who can help them get a better position in the monastery, or a job in a government office.

    A Catholic monk or former monk turned psychotherapist who treats victims of clerical sexual abuse has a website about his experiences and his work. I’ll post the link when I find it.

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  586. Most priests don’t sleep with their congregation, and even fewer monks do. This applies to Catholic monks, too, by the way.

    Funny – didn’t think about it until this very moment, but I can’t remember ever hearing of a Catholic monk scandal. That would be interesting to examine (whether the lifestyle of priests vs. monks is revealing in any way). I realize there are more priests than monks.

    Most people in Milwaukee are not Jeffrey Dahmer, either.

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  587. Thanks for tip.
    As to above: such people will not be welcome in any country.

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  588. Dear Giulia, your cell phone didn’t work for your appointment with Derksen probably because you didn’t charge it. Happens to me all the time. : )

    Are you no longer in touch with that other tulku who walked away from the dharma? He’s an important witness.

    To deal with your black magic problems, do this: find a good acupuncturist, preferably one who has studied in Taiwan or HongKong, or studied under someone from those two countries. Someone who knows the old Taoist techniques. (Mao purged the old Taoist treatments.) Ask for the “7 Dragons” treatment. Very powerful. It should clear up any problems you’re having. It can also heal Post Traumatic Stress. Good luck.

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  589. OK, Catholic priests are good people, that’s why there’s a worldwide scandal about their illicit sexual activity and abuse of women and children. Please qualify your statement to say that “some” Catholic priests are good people. Likewise, I agree that there are decent, ethical lamas out there, but finding one is a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack. But the Lamrim does tell us that a knowledgeable and honorable teacher is like a rare jewel.

    Some of these predatory clergy use condoms, and don’t forget that many Western women take oral contraceptives. Even so, sometimes babies do happen.

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  590. These people should go to prison instead!

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  591. I repeat: if it turns out the Orgyen Trinley would marry miss Gyari, this would prove these people have been wanting to kill me again and again just because they wanted to have a rich and influential family member. And HE would then become the successor of DL??? Impossible!! It is THEM who have sought me out again and again, inviting me, letting me come near, coming to Holland even. And just with the purpose to murder me because a boy that I had completely forgotten about is smitten with me?? Impermissible. Even for normal people or states people such would be totally impermissible, *let alone* people who claim to be spiritual persons. It would severely damage their next lives and their disciples if they get what they want because they have so hard tried to get it through MURDER.
    Remember also a Taiwanese woman was found hanging from the ceiling in Sidhbari. So, one has to murder everybody the OTr ever has been interested in??

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  592. I stand by my assertion that if wild, undisciplined sex with students happened to the extent you suggest, there would be Tibetan babies all over the place.

    The statistics you list off (someone went as far as to say 98% of Tibetan monks have sex with their students) simply cannot be supported without a noticeable number of accidental babies.

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  593. Buddhist monks, and Catholic priests, are good people.

    My experience with both (Fr. Bill’s scary sermons notwithstanding) has been one of love, respect and spiritual enrichment.

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  594. Sheila: How can you say that? Contraception is easy to get and to apply.

    Dharmadamsel: It IS important, a.o. because even according to the Tibetan scriptures the dharma will move from east to west.

    The Western tulku who wrote the letter to DL’s office and received that disappointing answer left the monastery & his studies there, tossed tulku-ship at the side and maybe also gave up the buddhadharma in the traditional / formal sense.
    Many other Western intellectuals that are monks and have lived at Tibetan monasteries have similar stories.

    I have met Ruben Derksen and know his parents. I have also exchanged emails with him and his sister and his parents.
    When I met Ruben Derksen in France, I was determined to write a book about disappointed Western tulkus who decided to bail out and I made an appointment with him to meet him at his parents’ house there. I am sad to say I never met him there as I could not find the house anymore and my cell-phone no longer worked, all of which I most certainly believe was due to the black magic of locally living tulku Pema Wangyal. I have emailed with him and family after this, though.

    He went to international university in Utrecht in the end, where my niece also studied.

    As for Orgyen Trinley (s): he has never harmed me personally, at least not the ones I have known “incognito”. The one that was in Sidhbari in spring 2003 might have cooperated in the poisoning, I believe he has, but I think he was fired (imagine: they hire and fire “Karmapa”s). But he has entered my energy-field and unknowingly harms me very much and I have tried very hard to figure this out. I then discovered there are quite a few men who pose as Orgyen Trinley and this has enraged me: how can I know where is the one that I need to talk to in order to figure out the energy-work between him and me that is taking place for reasons unknown to me??

    If I have been poisoned with the cooperation of Chokling Rinpoche because that OTr was so smitten with me (without me even being aware of it) and because he wanted him as a brother-in-law, IMO he should do everything possible to stop that from happening, because it would prove to these people that their criminal efforts have borne fruit and thus will either continue or lay a criminal opportunistic pattern in the mind-frame of such people.

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  595. Giulia: thank you for posting your statements about the Western tulkus’ experiences and observations in the monasteries–this is so important! Any Western tulkus witnessing sexual abuse of children should report it to the authorities. Those boys have no one to defend them, unless a Westerner or other outsider is present, and can do something.

    There have been several lawsuits brought by groups of boy novices against their molesters in Sri Lanka, and some boys in Taiwan took their abbot to court for child molestation years ago. Somehow boys in those countries are able to get help, but the Tibetan boys are not.

    The Western Tulku who wrote the letter to the DL’s office should go back to India and file criminal charges against the perpetrators of the abuse, if he can still recall the names, if not, against the abbot of the monastery. It’s never too late to file rape charges. The only way for there to be a reckoning, as in the Catholic Church, is for Western Buddhists to force a reckoning.

    I was impressed with Ruben Dirksen. Do you know how long he was in the monastery? He said he entered after completing grade school, so maybe he was 12 and 13? Are you in touch with any of these Western tulkus?

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  596. There are. You just haven’t heard about them. There are, in Australia, Europe, North America. A friend of mine who was assaulted by Sogyal had a miscarriage, so, fortunately she wasn’t stuck raising his child. removed at least uses a condom. Others may as well. Ole Nydahl learned how to do the seminal retention technique from the 16th Karmapa, so he doesn’t need one. Otherwise there would be hundreds of little Nydahls running around, as he freely admits to having had sex with over 500 women.

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  597. If all Tibetan monks in the west abuse women, there would be half-Tibetan babies everywhere.

    There aren’t.

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  598. bellaB,
    you are right, a sudden rising of the Kundalini can happen without any influence of a person or own practise, and often it has terribly results, like you wrote about your friend.

    But Lamas are able to open the kundalini of a person only through a act of their will in special rituals.

    Here what I wrote about in a preminilary note to my lecture:

    I wrote this lecture in 2008 under extremly bad conditions at the time, for example I did not recall me as the person I had been, a major damage, if not a total one of my short-term memory had entered, an experience of what many people have, who where most exposed to repeated traumatic stress. The ability to abstract thinking was severely restricted, most of what I wanted to say had to be written off the “Quellen” (sources) in order to be able to make sense of what I wanted to communicate.

    The objective of the female sacrify was exactly that: to become a depersonalizsed zombie as a pure receptabel of the transferences I should represent, in my specific case the transferences of the Vajrayogini, due to this my Bodhisattva-name was “Highest Wisdom”. During an inauguration of the new opened buddhistic center in Berlin Ole Nydahl named me or better the empty shell I was “Dorje Phagmo” too, the Tibetan name of the Varayogini.

    Today I know the state I was pushed in is the Bardo-state – its phenomena have not gone away until yet- which means one of the secret transferences of Naropa, I quote from Wikipedia: The praxis of the six Yogas implies, caused by its extremly powerful and energetic emanations, thus its specific development of effects and especially its far-reaching consequences, a very high degree of meditative ability and spiritual knowledge.

    (I did not have that at all. I liked to meditate but was much too lazy for the Nöndro-practise and all the other excercises like mantra-counting and so on. Why should someone tantalise herselves that much?)

    The experiment to perform wholly or partly the six Yogas of Naropa, without any suitable basics as well as instructions and support may be possible but hence there can emerge fatal complications as an irreversible damage of ones physical and psychic systems.”

    Leaving aside that I am not a devotee of any secret teachings at all, it was irresponsible, inhumane and criminal for Ole Nydahl and the so called Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje to involve me into such a transference, without my consent.

    As I said in other places: They abuse people, above all the women, as material for their own so called way of enlightenment.

    Hit the road, Nydahl, you never come back!

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  599. bella what happened to your friend is very rare, but what happens when one meditates and is also threatened by a lama is not so rare. meditation can be very dangerous and is talked about on the blog that people have given a link to here.

    here is an article from it:

    Rape. Torture. Slaves. All in Shangri-la

    Tibetan Buddhism by mbplee aka elle
    Regeneration of the Buddhist Priesthood in Tibet

    I have often wondered about the regeneration of the Tibetan priesthood, because I had always thought that the priests observed celibacy. Buddhist priests I have observed are always single, and the nuns too are always single and I had assumed that they practised celibacy as in the Catholic faith. In Buddhism, in order to achieve Nirvana, one can infer that a celibate lifestyle is critical to leaving behind the world of material or emotional attachment. It is therefore necessary for monks and nuns to renounce certain human desires in their vows of devotion to their beliefs. Celibacy is but one of the two hundred and fifty-three vows undertaken by the novice monks and nuns. But in Tibet, this would eventuate in the di-population of Tibet as there are predominantly more Buddhist monks and nuns than anywhere else in the world.

    It is not uncommon when monks spot some young, intelligent, and curious boy from among the peasant families or the serfs, to induce or persuade their parents to allow such boys to be novice priests. Most peasants or serfs would look upon such a vocation as an honour and privilege to the family. Their son would have a good life, provided for and clothed for the rest of his life and highly respected within the community. The family would be proud for such an honour and will also be relieved of having to feed another mouth. Such chosen families would be willing participants for such a future for their sons or daughters. But, their son, once accepted as a novice monk will be bonded for his life to the monastery. Dependant upon the monasteries and the priests involved, most of these boys will have escaped a life of poverty and servitude, but will now lead a life of humility and denial, and also suffer harshness and deprivations of another kind in within the monasteries.

    Monastic estates are also constantly on the look out to recruit young persons from among the peasants to serve in their monastery as soldiers, or ritual dance performers, or for their requirements as domestic help. They will entice such recruits by persuading the parents that such children will be well cared for and will be respected members of the monastery, thus persuading them to give up their children willingly. Such recruitment is not so dissimilar to that practised by the Christian churches in medieval times. Outside of the serfs and the peasants, there was a small middle class Tibetan families who were members of the merchant class, or shopkeepers, and small traders. There were also a small number of independent farmers who subsisted on small plots of land as the free peasantry. These farmers were usually poor and struggled in that environment as independents.

    Despite the vows of celibacy, there have been reports of rampant sex among abstemious monks practised within the Gelugpa sect. It was also common for some of the senior monks to take advantage of their position and authority to share the privileges of “Wisdom Consorts” by informing the women that by sleeping with the monks, they would gain “the means to enlightenment”. These women could be nuns or lay women of the order. No doubt pregnancies often resulted in such experiences. Break of the vows of celibacy could mean that it might require several incarnations to achieve nirvana. Yet it has also been said that Buddha himself reached nirvana after he had had experience of such a nature. Thus celibacy was by no means strictly observed among Buddhist monks.
    http://knol.google.com/k/tibetan-buddhism-serfdom-to-emancipation#The_First_Grand_Lama_of_Tibetan_Buddhism_was_Created_by_The_Yuan_Dynasty
    Below is a photo taken in Shangri-la. The life of serfs was dismal and there were no laws to protect their rights. Because of the harshness of life in that period, most serfs were glad to have found shelter and food for their families from their lords and masters. In Tibet, only a handful of established warlords, retired Generals, or a few senior and influential monks and their monasteries owned all to the land, including the serfs and slaves attached to that estate. Ninety-five percent of Tibetans were serfs on these manorial estates. The serfs were treated little better than slaves. Monasteries owned large tracts of the fertile land in order to support and feed all the monks. This feudal system was similar to that in Europe in the middle ages, but lasted to the end of the Twentieth Century. Serfs were under a life bond to work on the Lord’s land or the monasteries’ land without pay, to repair the Lord’s houses, transport his crops, collect his firewood, and herd his animals. All this labour provided without pay or reward.

    Old Tibet: Shackled Serf Tilling the Land with wooden tools
    A Tibetan lord would often take his pick of females in the serf population, if we are to believe one 22-year old woman, herself a runaway serf: “All pretty serf girls were usually taken by the owner as house servants and used as he wished.” They “were just slaves without rights.” (15) Serfs needed permission to go anywhere. Landowners had legal authority to capture and forcibly bring back those who tried to flee. A 24-year old runaway serf, interviewed by Anna Louise Strong, welcomed the Chinese intervention as a “liberation.” During his time as a serf he claims he was not much different from a draft animal, subjected to incessant toil, hunger, and cold, unable to read or write, and knowing nothing at all. He tells of his attempts to flee:
    The first time [the landlord’s men] caught me running away, I was very small, and they only cuffed me and cursed me. The second time they beat me up. The third time I was already fifteen and they gave me fifty heavy lashes, with two men sitting on me, one on my head and one on my feet. Blood came then from my nose and mouth. The overseer said: “This is only blood from the nose; maybe you take heavier sticks and bring some blood from the brain.” They beat then with heavier sticks and poured alcohol and water with caustic soda on the wounds to make more pain. I passed out for two hours. (16)

    In the Dalai Lama’s Tibet, torture and mutilation — including eye gouging, the pulling out of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation of arms and legs — were favored punishments inflicted upon thieves, runaway serfs, and other “criminals.”
    http://www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html

    Michael Parenti is an internationally known author and lecturer. He is one of the nation’s leading progressive political analysts. Parenti received his Ph.D. in political science from Yale University in 1962. He has taught at a number of colleges and universities, in the United States and abroad.

    Some monasteries had their own private prisons, reports Anna Louise Strong. In 1959, she visited an exhibition of torture equipment that had been used by the Tibetan overlords. There were handcuffs of all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for cutting off noses and ears, and breaking off hands. For gouging out eyes, there was a special stone cap with two holes in it that was pressed down over the head so that the eyes bulged out through the holes and could be more readily torn out. There were instruments for slicing off kneecaps and heels, or hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special implements for disembowling. (21)

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  600. Giulia, I just have to ask – you are saying how bad Tibetans are, yet you said you slept with a 12 year old Tibetan boy. This is illegal, and instead of reporting you to the authorities, they let you be. Don’t you think Tibetans have treated you rather fairly, considering?

    If the part about sleeping with a 12 year old is not true, you should probably make that clear – maybe the dates got mixed up?

    As a 12 year old, Karmapa Lama was not actually out of Tibet yet, when you said you slept with him; unless it’s a different child you were referring to.

    Either way, sleeping with a child is a serious crime, and if you haven’t really done that, you should perhaps say so and be very careful about getting the timeline accurate and so forth. If you have sexually abused a child, you need to be honest about it and talk to someone professional who can help you, and be very grateful the Tibetan community didn’t press charges.

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  601. I have a former University friend, who suddenly in the middle of the day had a kundalini rising. She is not a Buddhist and hasn’t practiced yoga or anything else (Eastern).

    She was in a car crash and got a piece of glass on her head, which was removed. One year after her accident her personality changed completely. She became paranoid, isolated, fearful and accusing people of whatever (she felt bad about).

    She wasn’t a very nice friend anymore, we all worried for her. This cheerful, funny and happy girl had become her own opposite, an enemy to herself. Fortunately she has gotten herself therapy. When she gave birth to her first child she was very psychotic and got hospitalized.

    One doesn’t need to be Buddhist nor have any connection to anty special teacher in order to experience kundalini or losing their mind. Some people who are on a border, could also seek out help from Tibetan lamas and get disappointed, since they can’t help. Western psychiatric treatment is also so poor in regarding these situations.

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